# Bloody kidding - warning, kinda graphic photos



## Blue Oak Ranch (Feb 25, 2008)

As with all extensive kidding stories, this one starts, "So, my friend is out of town, and her goat kidded unexpectedly...." LOL. Kids looked term, so I think it was an early breeding that didn't get recorded.

Husband found the kids badly chilled, mom bleating but not feeding them. Kids are now warm, dry, and being bottle fed. 

The doe, though, has me worried. She's a first freshener Mini Nubian, 3/4 Nigerian 1/4 Nubian. She was bred to a 3rd gen Mini Nubian buck. She kidded triplets on her own. She's in good health, good flesh, has had all the appropriate vaccinations, etc. 

Thing is, she was really bleeding quite badly, fresh bright blood, but there was no visible tearing of the vaginal opening. Some birth fluid, but a lot more blood than normal. I stayed with her until she passed the placenta, which she did fairly rapidly, but the cotyledons were far more engorged than any I've ever seen. She'd stand for a while, and drip blood down the placenta, then she'd move and I'd move it with her so she wouldn't step on it. There was still a lot of blood in the veins. The folds of the placenta were filled with blood. I milked her both for the kids and for the oxytocin - and she was having the strongest contractions with the most pain I've ever seen a doe have for expelling the placenta. 

I didn't have a thermometer, didn't bring one and I couldn't find one in my friend's goat stuff. But the doe seemed cold, puffy fur, she mouthed warm water but didn't suck it down the way other does would have. 

While I worked on the kids, I'd check on her every so often - when she'd lay down, she'd pool blood and fluid behind her. More than usual, enough to clot strongly, not diluted much. It would take her about 10-15 minutes to pool this much. A bit scary. 

She got: 

the equivalent of about 1/8cc MuSe (leftover dilution from the kids), about a 60-70lb doe
6cc Fortified Vit B
20cc oral liquid CMPK with dextrose

I turned her out an hour or so post-expelling of the placenta, so she could warm up in the sun. She did eat and drink on her own, alfalfa pellets (no grain in them). She seemed a lot more normal about 8 hours post-kidding. Husband was going to put a heat lamp out for her. 

I will go over with more Vit B and some Red Cell tomorrow. 

Is there anything else I should be doing/looking for on her? How much Red Cell? Her owner will be coming back tomorrow night, but she's been out of the country for several weeks and I'm sure she'll be overwhelmed.


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## Blue Oak Ranch (Feb 25, 2008)

This is the placenta expelled - you can see the veins still engorged. A large fold of the placenta is filled with blood.


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## Blue Oak Ranch (Feb 25, 2008)

This amount of blood took about 10-15 minutes to accumulate - she didn't leak or bleed when standing up, just when lying down.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Looks normal and healthy to me!!! If she is indeed bleeding out internally, she will grow increasingly weaker as time passes.


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## Blue Oak Ranch (Feb 25, 2008)

Wow, really? *whew* I've never had such a bleeder, and I've kidded 8-12 does for the past several years. Never seen such engorgement on the cotyledons. She really had me worried, especially the pooling when lying down. She didn't want to move much, lying down almost all the time, most of my other does were walking around within minutes. Her eyelid and gum color were not great but workable by the time I left. 

I'll letcha know how she does in the morning. I told the husband to call me if she's acting weak or weird, but if she is weak, is there anything I can do for her? 

Thanks, and cheers!

Katherine


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The big red blood clots are where the placenta was attached in the uterus, they bleed more. If you actually took the normal exude of fluid and material out of that pooled blood with her laying down it's actually very little blood. Check her eyelids against the famacha chart in goatkeeping 101 you can see quickly a doe bleeding out.

If she was actually bleeding it wouldn't be from the vagina it would be in the uterus, which means bathing with a gloved hand the uterus with occytocin or epi, trying to stop the bleeding...I think there are herbs they use also, red raspberry leaves ? But in all honesty the doe would be dead before any of us could figure out how to stop a uterine bleed, even on our way to the vet. Vicki


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## punchiepal (Aug 4, 2010)

Cayenne pepper will help with bleeding. Oral and direct on the bleeding site.


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Cayenne pepper?? Ouch!!


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## Blue Oak Ranch (Feb 25, 2008)

Well, actually, there was a lot of blood in the pool from her lying down, much more than usual. Blood and fluid (even blood in plain water) is a little darker, much thinner in appearance, not volume. It's hard to see in the photo because I'm inside the barn, but it was thick and bright. I know blood - I slaughter a lot of animals on a regular basis (grin). Bright oxygenated blood is surprisingly thick and opaque. 

I was worried about the cotyledons' appearance, because I haven't ever seen them this engorged with blood - usually, by the time the doe passes the placenta they're not so bright or engorged - flatter, more halfway between wine color and red meat color, grayish if the blood had drained out. These looked and felt like little lungs that had aspirated blood (LOL - slaughter enough poultry and you have the weirdest points of reference).

Anyway, the husband says she's a bit weaker, not moving much from one spot, eyes closed, and has stopped calling for the kids. I'll go out to see her in a short bit. Anything I can do for her? Can a doe with a slight tear recover? If so, would you breed a doe like that again, or would you be more likely to sell her to a non-breeding home?

Ummm.....if I were to try and put cayenne on where she's bleeding, I might be up to my wrist in the doe.....LOLOL.....there was no external tearing of the labia. Triplets were fairly small, maybe 4 lbs.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, cayenne pepper works. I was at a class taught by a master's degree herbalist at Convention. She saved one of her does who was bleeding heavily by using cayenne. She said the doe was bleeding and had not yet finished kidding. She put a handful of cayenne into the goat which clotted the blood and was then able to reach behind the clot and pull the kid. The doe survived.
Put the cayenne into her uterus. I would consult a vet before rebreeding her.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

My doe just kidded yesterday and I did a whole placenta lesson with my children, we examined the two placentas really thoroughly and they looked nothing like that. There was no blood at all, and the cotelydons were flat, clean and purple looking and you could see all the tiniest vessels, cotelydons looked sorta like pads of fresh liver? There was no blood pooled in the placenta, only amber or clear amniotic fluid, and nothing but clean placenta under her when she laid down and they came out. I held them in my bare hands, spreading everything out to show the children and my hands were clean after holding it all and moving it around.I would also be worried about this doe! Looks like what I would expect if the placenta had been pulled out, and we know that didnt happen, so this would be worrying. How are the babies? They seemed normal other than the chill?


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

That looks like the placenta my horse passed! Never seen one that big out of my goats.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If she was bleeding out, blood would be dripping out of her vagina, certainly it would be pooling blood when she got up and down or layed for any amount of time but it would not have exude with it. Her eye membranes would be white and she would have died in about 30 minutes, maybe even less.

That's a ziplock baggie in the photo next to it, so the placenta is normal sized unless that's a sandwich ziplock and not a gallon ziplock than size is normal, all layed out like that.

Just like umbilical cords, when they are fresh they are throbbing and filled with blood like this, as the blood goes back into the belly it turns opaque and barely red. The same with a placenta that is quickly detached by the doe, or pulled out, which is what I was going to say and then decided not to, but it does looks as if it was manually detached. We normally don't see these bright red attachments because the blood supply is gone and then it detaches on it's own so the, attachments are flat, clean and purplish. The doe taking sometimes up to 12 hours to drop the placenta, you wouldn't see these red attachments normally. Was the placenta pulled or oxytocin given?

Yes with a gloved hand whatever you decide to stop bleeding with, oxytocin, epi etc means elbow deep inside the doe, or flushing her.

If this was her uterus she prolapsed, which is one PM I got, it would be attached to the doe.


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## chell20013 (Feb 7, 2011)

The placenta and blood actually looks exactly like what my first doe passed. She dropped twin bucks on the ground and didn't bother to clean them up, (I lost one, the other is my avitar picture). Anyway, she partially expelled the placenta and dragged it around for hours and it looked just like that one. I'd never seen a goat placenta before, so it kind of freaked me out


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## Blue Oak Ranch (Feb 25, 2008)

I've been doing this for 10 years - never seen something quite like this one. Enough to make me worried. 

There's bleeding, and then there's bleeding out. I would think that degree of bleeding would depend on the size of the tear or its location, wouldn't it? She was dripping while passing, not a huge amount but definitely not normal. Neither kids nor placenta pulled, in fact I put the end in the ziploc so I could keep her from stepping on it, and slid it when she moved to avoid pulling on it. She had the kids about 5-6am, normal small bag of tissue hanging by the time I got there around 8am, and passed the placenta around 2pm. Except for working with the kids, I stayed with her. Overall, seemed rather fast to me - so the fast detachment could cause the appearance and excessive blood? Makes sense, but it would have eased my mind a LOT at the time to have that opinion. Thanks, though, I feel a lot better. I didn't want to assume there wasn't a problem, because she's not my doe and I would feel terrible if she died if there was something I could have done. 

That's a regular sized gallon ziploc, yes - but out of a 65-75lb Nigerian-sized doe. She wasn't given oxytocin, but I milked her when it was more than half out and then just stroked her udder, and the owner's husband did both too. I didn't even put her on the stanchion, though I can pick her up and put her on it. The only vet in the area treats goats reluctantly, and is fairly hands-off when it comes to them. 

Doe's eyelids were reasonably good when I left yesterday, pale but not white this morning. She's weaker than I'd like to see, but holding her own, if not moving much. Dried blood down her legs. Calls occasionally for the kids, which she didn't do yesterday. I think that's a good sign. Temp 101, but she has a heat lamp. Drinking, but she likes to be hand-fed, apparently. Husband put her back on straw/dirt, so I have no idea how much she bled. Straw is bloodstained but it's super hard to tell because others are kicking it around too. 

Kids are fine, happy waggling tails and bright eyes. Yay!


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

My does will pass placenta within 2-3 hours of the last kid being born. So if this doe kidded around 5-6 AM and didn't pass the placenta until 2 PM, that was a long time.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

That is what I was thinking Janie, since I would start to get anxious about then and pulling out the oxytocin.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep, should they not be cleaned out by 4 hours post kidding - it's Oxytocin time!!!


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