# Doe Rocking Back on Heels :(



## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

2 yr old FF--freshened 3/15 with a single doe kid. I didn't notice her rocking before kidding...but maybe I just didn't notice til now since she's on the stand twice a day. 
Normal pre-breeding routine--vacs, wormed, copper bollused, bose on 1/22 and bose again on 3/1. Doe kid was the worst this year on sucking--took me almost a week to get her on the lambar and she rocked on all feet. Doe got bose again after kidding. Just gave her more on 4/13. 
Also wondering if it's my trimming. ?? I hate doing back feet. They seem like I've got them done fine, til I put them back on the ground. :/ I've been trimming off the toes a bit more to see if it stands her up. More off the toes for rocking back if it's due to trimming, right? Well, it ain't working if that's the issue. 
Also wondering if the way she's standing is making it worse. Like she's got her feet too far back. When she moves them further forward, they don't seem as bad and on the ground not as bad...but there's still an issue there. When she walks you can tell she rocks back on them while moving.
I'm putting two pics on this post of her feet closer up and then I'll do two on another post that shows the way she stands--feet too far back? 

Thoughts?


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

next...


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I was just looking at some older pics of her on my FB page--prebreeding and right after kidding--and she wasn't rocking back. So I'm figuring this is something new. Just can't figure out...why.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

She is so shallow in her heels she has none. She is also long in her pasterns both front an back and down in them. It is the curse of some nubian bloodlines....we ask ourselves, are we willing to sacrifice our Nubians great feet and legs for the chance of the bloodlines rear udder? You have to cull some bloodlines a lot more critically because of this, and it is usually seen before they are freshened. Have a yearling or younger photo of hers, bet she had super long and was weak in the pasterns even then. Vicki


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

This is her as a yearling.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You can see it already in her front feet especially in the 2nd photo, in the first photo both front and rear are not the correct angle, her pastern should be straight up and down, her hooves are in front of her knees. You can see in both the photos why she looks like she does as a milker. She is also very fine boned in those legs all the way up.

Can you now see it in the yearling photos?

Now that she is down on her heels like this, she splays her toes for stablity. It will get worse with age, worse as she is heavy bred until she is completely down in the pastern. Vicki


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## NorthOf49 (Feb 8, 2011)

Interesting pictures... I've never had a good mental picture of what long pasterns look like. Any pictures or explanations of what 'ideal' pasterns look like? Noob question alert: pasterns being the part between the dew claw and the hoof, right? And the 'fine-boned' part... I can't see that. How do can you see bone like this?


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Well crap!  Yes, now I see it. Anything I can do about it? I hid 3 vit E gelcaps in her peanuts tonight after milking. Remembered that I read it helps with selenium. Anything else?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks for sharing this, Denise. Very informative.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

What causes that shallow heel? I am curious because I have one like that also. Is it genetics or a copper/selemium issue? With my doe it is like her hoof is just too soft to support her weight. And she is NOT over-conditioned. So the heels get smushed down and the whole hoof ends up mishapen. You can't really trim it away because there is no excess hoof, it is just misshapen. Keeping the hoof trimmed helps but never totally corrects it.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Obviously it's genetic, shallow heels, long weak pasterns. If bo-se worked it would work and stay fixed and you would see the problem herdwide, not just in one doe. Bad feet is just not something we should let creep into our breed. Vicki


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## LaManchaLady (Feb 5, 2011)

Does this seem to be a large problem in Toggenburgs as well? I visited a farm last year when we were considering adding a few more toggenburgs and A LOT of those does done this as well :really


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

It could have been nutritional--like needing BoSe if it were in the whole herd like Vicki said. Or if their animals were closely related and their area isn't deficient or managed with BoSe, then could be genetic.
I've had does that were like this, but usually when heavy bred and responded to BoSe or it corrected after kidding. That's why this one was confusing me. Wasn't as bad when she was bred (and she was never *heavy* bred), didn't become a problem til after kidding and hasn't responded to the BoSe. It's not as bad when she's on the ground, but really bothers me when she's on the stand.


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## LaManchaLady (Feb 5, 2011)

At this herd I am betting genetic. Their animals were beautiful. Fat and shiny and heavy milking


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## grandmajo (May 22, 2008)

Northof49 - Go to the ADGA website, they have a really good drawing with the goat parts listed: http://www.adga.org/index.php?optio...tgoatparts&catid=86:cat-about-goats&Itemid=87

Pasterns are identified in the 2nd picture on the left side near the bottom.


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

I took some pics while milking this morning of a couple of my girls. The ones I am milking right now will give you pretty good examples. I'll try to get them up this evening maybe.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

LaManchaLady said:


> Does this seem to be a large problem in Toggenburgs as well? I visited a farm last year when we were considering adding a few more toggenburgs and A LOT of those does done this as well :really


I don't know, but my one toggenburg is like this. She doesn't have long pasterns though. But her rear feet are really hard to keep in any kind of decent shape. She doesn't hardly grow them down, the wall tries to curl under on the sole, the heels are shallow and the toes stick up etc. I have to keep a close eye on them. In her fronts, the toes are spread, but she has plenty of heel depth, just as deep as the toe. Don't know why her hinds are so bad. They have no depth toe or heel. Hardly anything to trim.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

I used to own a Nigerian who's feet and pasterns were just like that. As a kid I trimmed her toes too short once and boy did I end up with a mess. Her heels never wanted to grow, they would just get to a certain depth and then fold onto the sole. By the time she kidded they were like the doe pictured, even with BoSe. I sold her before her second freshening as home milker to someone local and when I saw her after her second freshening they had worsened considerably. Both kiddings she was bred to the same buck and he did improve the feet and pasterns in her kids.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Well...I got her back on her toes.  I'll get pics in a couple days, but wanted to post. I don't think she's *cured* and I'm sure this will always be an issue I have to stay on top of with her.
After writing this, I thought of what Tim had wrote about Gabriella and the poor care of her feet (like I said in a previous post--I don't like doing back feet--I do them, but don't feel I do them very well :/ ). So, anyhow...I went back and read that post in Tim's blog and realized what I was doing wrong--not trimming the sole (frog) of her hoof properly. I've been doing a little bit every week and think I'm getting it down.  I don't think her heel is actually as shallow as it looks. It is folded under and smooshed forward from her walking on it.
Of all my Pilgrim daughters, her and I have this love/hate thing going. She's my baby and a royal *B*  and I think she's a gorgeous doe. Very large. Reminds me of Pilgrim looking at her.  I can't wait to see how she appraises this year.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Denise, we have had the same problem, not cutting the sole enough or at all. Since we've been doing that, and rasping, as well, feet are looking a lot better here.

Would love to see the pics. It's amazing what a well-done trimming will do, I think.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Since I got a milk stand, I've become obsessed with feet. I had trimmed several of them too low in the heel. I've just about got it fixed. Feet are so different up here on this soft ground. Much easier to trim!


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

We had a very good goat breeder recommend "doe Manicures" to us as the definitive book on trimming hooves.

Highly recommend it.

This gal said that after following their instructions for about a year (some corrections take time) that her does started standing 1st and 2nd in their classes, rather than 5th or 6th. Correct trimming is that important (and, NO not just the winning - helping her stand correctly will help her all the way around - just sayin' she has the same goats that looked much much better with the correct trimming.

OKAY! The name of the book is N-A-N-N-Y Manicures. Stinkin' auto correct! :rofl


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Sorry it took me so long. :/ Here are the pics of Bug's hooves. I've been trimming little by little weekly and giving BoSe and Vit E every 21 days. I think the toes on the right hoof are still a bit long and the bottom of the hooves are still *rounded*. Any tips/advise on further trimming?


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

A few more:


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Great improvement Denise!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

They look great, Denise! Want to come and fix mine? :biggrin

I bought that book, Camille....it was helpful. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Wow! Lee's right- great improvement!


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

You should be proud of yourself! They look so good now!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Pretty feet


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Well, they are *better* than they were, but....not great or pretty. :/ Still work to be done and hopefully improve more.
My second year doing appraisals I had three does. Two scored V in feet/legs and the other scored an E. I compare everyone's to that third one--Bryrpatch Yellow Calendula. The appraiser really got through to me how lucky I was to be starting with beautiful feet and legs and how important they are overall and how hard it is to breed out poor quality feet/legs.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Your goat's feet appear to be like my doe's. Her outside wall on each outside toe of her rear feet tend to want to roll under, and is pulled by the inside of that toe folding towards the middle of the toes- if I'm making sense. If so, be careful to keep a completely flat cut on the outside, but after you get your balance, put a bevel on the inside that is folding under, if you aren't already. 

They look quite good!


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## NorthOf49 (Feb 8, 2011)

Denise, is there any way you can post pictures of Calendula's feet? I checked your website and you can't really see the feet on the pictures of her you have up... just so I can see what you are comparing to. There's lots of bad feet pictures floating around: I'd love to see some good feet pictures! Thanks!


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

One of my yearlings suddenly is really down on her pasterns. She's out of a really nice doe I purchased a few years ago. I don't recall her looking like this as a kid or even when she was pregnant. She is long in the pasterns, too. I gave her some BoSe and see a little improvement, but if I don't see more, she'll be one of a group sold to a family of homesteaders as a family milker. They eat any kids they don't keep as milkers. It's a shame because she has one of the nicest Nubian udders I've bred.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Better in that they are more compact but.....she still has no heel to walk on, and the whole angle of her foot is wrong. Go to the 1.JP photo you just put up....run your mouse curser down the long bone in front of her leg, keep going straight through the hoof, it should touch her toe, and not the middle of her hoof. No amount of bo-se or hoof trimming is fixing this foot and between her splay toe, and it's not splayed like a swiss breed doe is, with her heels together and her toes apart...you doe's hooves don't touch at all back to front, which is a futher weakness to the structure of the foot.

It can take awhile of using a buck or breeding to a doe before you reliaze the weakness they are giving you, in your what used to be a strong line (say of feet, or topline or udder or breed character). It is the hardest thing we do, culling out this weekness. Or deciding if you are fine with this weekness to get the improvment (lets say in rear udder) that this line gives you.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Yeah :/ I don't kid myself that this doe will ever have *perfect* feet. But if I can manage her so that at least she isn't down in her pasterns and walking on her heels, like in the first pics, then I'll be happy with that.

Christine, I don't know if I have any pics of Callie's feet/legs that would show more. Will have to check my laptop. We lost her last year to milk fever.  If I can't find any, I'll get pics of a couple of my does that I think have nice feet and maybe we can compare and see if I can improve trimming on them too.


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## NorthOf49 (Feb 8, 2011)

Oops, sorry to bring up a painful memory.


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