# Severe hoof and leg swelling....



## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi everyone--
Last night I found my 3 year old doe's right front leg swollen from the foot up to the knee. Quite swollen, like twice as big as the other, but not really hot to the touch. I thought she had injured herself because she and her 5 m/o daughter had gotten out of the pasture yesterday somewhere thru the fencing. I brought her to the milkstand, inspected her leg and foot for injury or snakebite and found nothing. I gave her 1.5 ml banamine and put her back outside (I had to help her off the stand and she was walking slowly, with a limp, but still trying to chase the cat and mostly acting normal). 

This morning I checked her and the leg is now swollen up to the shoulder, she wont leave the barn because she doesnt want to walk on it, and now, the left rear leg is swollen, although not to the same degree (yet?), and only up to the knee. 

I guess this is laminitis??? 

I thought it had to be both front feet first, but apparently this is not the case?

Her diet has not changed, she is growing out one heavy kid and milking once a day about 3 qts. I feed her twice a day 1.5 lb of grain (mare and foal mixed with purina goat feed), plus free choice alfalfa pellets. She has loose minerals, but I noticed yesterday that I had allowed the baking soda supply to run out. She has run of about 3 acres including a block of woods. I dont feed her hay now because in the summer it just sits there and no one eats it. She was recently copper bolused, and I trim her feet regularly, they are nice and short and well shaped right now.

Maybe she got into something yesterday when she got out and this caused this? Or maybe I am feeding too much. She has dropped off in her production lately, but I didn't drop her feed yet because she seemed to be getting thinner when I tried. She is not fat at all, I can see her ribs some and her backbone, and she's active -- she's a big goat though, at 165 lbs. Her kid is huge at 6 m/o, she has milk goiter and I cant really tell her apart from a 2 y/o I have anymore, the two y/o is 150 lbs, so I am guessing the 6 m/o is about 100 lbs now. 

Seems I cant catch a break around here. Just had a baby die of listeria a couple months ago, I am getting tired of all this. Sometimes I just want to be done. 

How much and how often should I treat with banamine for acute laminitis? 
I am going to separate her and feed her only hay.
And I am going out right now to put her feet in ice water.
Anything else I should do?

Thank you so much for any help.
Alisa~


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

*Re: Laminitis*

Laminitis is just an inflamation in the hoof area. Because the hoof can not swell like the rest of the body, you get some problems with those sensitive laminae in the hoof. However the base cause here is not laminitis, although she may well end up with it due to whatever is causing the problem.

Cold water soaks, or running the hose over the affected area, banamine... that's a great start. I agree the food should be very bland and plain for her as rich food can sometimes cause a reaction like this. It could also be caused by something like a bee or wasp sting.

I'd suggest taking her to the vet, but I think she has to get over the reaction to whatever it is, and the vet can't really do much more than you can (my opinion here). It sounds to me like some sort of histamine reaction to something or other. I'm so sorry I can't be much more help than that, maybe someone else has a brilliant suggestion.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

*Re: Laminitis*

OK now I am really confused. 
I just went out there and soaked her hoof. The leg is hot all the way up to the shoulder, and very swollen. Her foot is really looking bad, I am starting to wonder if I am going to see it start weeping fluid.

Now the reason I am confused is because the back leg (left) is also swollen but NOT THE FOOT. I compared both rear hooves and nothing on either hoof is swollen, or hot. The knee is swollen, and going down slightly toward the foot, but not the hoof.

Last night it was obvious to me that the right front was swelling from the hoof and the swelling was traveling UP toward the knee and now the shoulder.

The swelling I am finding this morning on the left rear is starting at the knee and traveling DOWN.

She ironically does not seem to be in too much pain.

She is eating hay happily and is in good spirits.

I am not taking her to a vet because my vet is not much on goats, no one around here is. I dont think, as you said Jacquee, that he would do any more than I am doing now.

The only other thing to report, is that her joints are crackly--lots of popping going on. Not real loud, but definitely there, I can hear her crackly joints when she walks. I started noticing this about 6 mos ago.

Thanks again.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

*Re: Laminitis*

Also, she is CAE negative.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

I wonder if it could be some kind of reaction to something she touched?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

I don't have time right this second, but this is not founder/laminitis, they founder in both front feet, not one.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

Have you given any benadryl?


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

This is what I know from treating horses my whole life: If a swelling is hot, and pits when you push it with your finger, it's likely to be some sort of infection and should be treated with hot water soaks and the appropriate antibiotic. If a swelling is normal temp and springs back when you push it with your finger, it's likely to be a swelling caused by bruising, by a histamine reaction etc. and should be treated with cold water and anti-inflammatory medication. I guess, check and see if it pits or not. The heat is worrisome.

It really does sound like something odd happened when she escaped. I think if it were chronic arthritis or something, it would not come on so quickly.

One thing comforting my vet once told me... most problems goats have are not so threatening that mere minutes count in getting them treatment. (Bloat is a very obvious exception, there are a few others dealing with things like birth.) So most likely, your stance of waiting to see how she weathers it and bolstering her in any way you can will be fine.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

Oh, another thought - I've been in that area (my sister lives in NC) and I wonder if she might be reacting to stinging nettle? Usually that reaction comes on much faster so it's kind of a long shot but I've seen it there. Sometimes, just like us humans, a goat can be especially sensitive to something that doesn't bother other goats.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

Does she have an elevated temp?

Is it possible you have a wasp problem? Hornets?
I have seen hornets kill a full sized mule.
Lee


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

That's a good idea, this is a bad time of year for stinging insects! Could be an overreaction to a couple stings.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

We have a bug called Cicada killer wasps that are HUGE and they say they can cause bad reactions. My dad said he calls them hornets? So maybe they could cause problems.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

There are also tarantula hawks, I had one land on my chest few weeks ago and they are supposed to have the second most painful sting in the world! Thankfully I shooed him and he left. They look like a HUGE dirt dobber.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

Was gone all day, just got home. Her legs are still swollen. No change. I will go out and let you know whats what on the temp, heat in the legs, etc. It is a buggy time of year, but I dont know....I can tell you that about a week ago her daughter had a nasty fly bite on her nose, the kind that cause my horses to get big welts and drip blood--the big black flies--and the little doeling had half her face swollen and a big drip of blood mark where it bit. The next day she was fine.

This is the strangest thing. The only thing I can put it to now is that she got out. And somehow she must have injured herself when she was out, or on the way out. I just dont know. She was in the neighbors backyard, and they were able to get their hands on her and a rope around her to bring her home. That's not normal for her, she wouldnt just let anyone wrangle her up like that. She must have somehow felt not right when they collected her. IDK.

One other thing I have reflected on the past week or so is that she seems slower to come to me when I call her. I put it to the heat. That she didnt seem as "up" or energetic as she usually is. But nothing else to set off any alarm bells. So I cam just confused.

Thanks for your suggestions and ideas everyone. I'll be back soon with an update.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

Okkkkkkk.....
Sooo...
Weird.
She is no longer limping.
Both legs are still swollen.
Her temp is 103.1
She ate alfalfa pellets on the stand while I cleaned her legs.
Both legs were REALLY REALLY DIRTY. They had gathered dirt all day while they oozed clear serous fluid. There are small (pinhead to eraser sized) openings and sloughing all over her legs.

On her right front, the whole foot is weeping fluid, there is an eraser sized opening in the back and hundreds of others all over the leg up to the shoulder (tiny, microscopic to pinhead sized). Worst around foot/hoof losing intensity as you go up toward the shoulder.

The rear leg is not involving the foot, just the hock on down to the ankle. There are numerous weeping areas all over the leg, only this one is less affected and most of the worst part is in front right over the front of the hock.

While I was cleaning the rear leg she was crying out in pain. (poor thing).

But then later I was massaging benadryl ointment into both her legs kind of firmly with a good deal of pressure and she seemed to enjoy it?? (wth??)

I say snake bite while out in the woods? Just a guess. My husband thinks its unlikely she would be bitten twice. Who knows?

Or else she must have gotten into something poisonous/toxic??

What the HECK IS THIS? Gawd.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

Also I gave her another dose of banamine. And her legs are clearly very full of fluid. You can feel the fluid (edema) in the areas where there is some movement to the skin, like around the upper area such as above the hock and around the shoulder. You can wiggle the skin around and feel the heaviness of fluid within the tissues...its almost sloshy. (shaking my head....)


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

Hornets
They nest in the ground and if disturbed by walking near the nest they come out in a swarm and attack as a group. The small sloughings are where the stings were. They do not die from stinging but sting over an over and inject a poison that kills the tissue. If you have small children I would keep some epipen on hand.
The hornet group has some members that have actual toxins in their sting not just the more ubiquitous acetylcholine that makes it painful. 
Poor girl but sounds like she will survive!


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

*Re: Laminitis?? Severe hoof and leg swelling....*

Thanks Buckrun--Yeah, I am guessing this must be it. The ground hornets? I think she was in the woods when this happened, and no way to know where the nest is. The whole woods is a tangle of briars and stuff. The goats are doing a good job of cleaning it out. This morning I checked her and her back leg is not swollen any longer, but her front still is, although I think it is lessening. But I touched and applied pressure to her front foot and it was just oozing fluid like a sponge. It is really gross. I will wash her legs again really well today with nolvasan and put her in a cleaner pasture where she cant lay down in sand.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

I would like to give her some benadryl today. I know I am kinda late on that front, but it wont hurt and may still help. Can anyone give me a dosage? Thank you.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Poor goat! I woke up thinking about her this morning. I think benadryl is a great idea. I just do dosing like for humans, but not sure what others do.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes and just like in humans if in a severe enough case like this you can eaisly tripple the dosage. You do have to give every 4 to 6 hours though to keep bloodlevels up why it's eaiser to use horse antihistimes from the vet or Jeffers etc....

With her temp 103 I agree with Lee, although I would never have been able to come up with that since I have never seen anything like that except in a snake bite...I was (except for the fever) thinking clostridium like black leg etc...


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

We have had several of our local loggers hospitalized from hornet attacks one of which was on our property or I would not have had a clue either. You never see the nests. They just appear in a fury. Communal wasps in the vespa group can really do some damage.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

Jeez I am glad she doesnt have that! I just googled it. She was vaccinated CD/T a long time ago, but I haven't done any boosters on any of my goats because I had some tissue necrosis issues with a few of them. I wonder if I should revaccinate everyone.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

Maybe I'll post some pics of the damage so yall can see what it looks like. Thanks everyone for your help. Its nice just to be able to come on here and freak out like this lol. Gets it off your chest and you feel not so alone.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You would have to use something like Covexin 8, or a cattle vaccine that has other clostridiums in it besides just C, D and T. With so much of her body envolved you may want to put her on an antibiotic.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

Vicki if you see this, I tagged you in some facebook pics so you can see her leg. I cant figure out how to post photos here...She's doing better now, still swollen and leaking fluid, but swelling is going down. In fact the pics I put up on fb, the swelling is less than it was.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Give children's liquid Benadryl - dose by weight, same as you would for a child.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

buckrun said:


> We have had several of our local loggers hospitalized from hornet attacks one of which was on our property or I would not have had a clue either. You never see the nests. They just appear in a fury. Communal wasps in the vespa group can really do some damage.


Yep, I remember coming home to dad all swelled up with stings all over his back and some on his head. Run over a nest with a skidder, the skidder is loud, slow and takes a second to get out of. Not good!

Glad to hear she is improving!


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

Just an update. WOW. Now that her swelling is going down some, I am starting to find the stings all over her body. There are little oozy places everywhere, that look like little spots where she might have licked, but they are not lick spots, just little wet areas and in the center there is a little red raised spot with a dot of blood in it where the sting happened. All over her right side, her ears, her right eye, about 10 stings on her udder alone! All over her belly and so many on her right front leg and left rear that I can barely pick them out individually, they just run together and there are just bumps all over those legs, still leaking fluids. I guess I am just lucky she's not dead for goodness sake. My husband and I are going to go to the backside of the pasture where she ran out and see if she knocked any fencing down. Poor thing must have been in a mad crazy dash to get the heck outta there and just busted out somewhere. Thats why she let the neighbors bring her home. Maybe we will find the nest--but sure as heck wont go near it! Probably Violet will never venture into those woods again now....


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks for the update. She may have just flown over the fence to get away from those things!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

how is she doing today?


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