# Copper Bolus



## VickiLynne (Feb 8, 2008)

I have never given my goats copper. It was in the "complete" feed I was feeding. As I am learning tons of information from this forum and have changed my feeding program from commercial feed to whole oats, barley, BOSS and alfalfa pellets, do I need to give additional copper other than what is in my minerals? I am feeding Purina Goat minerals as that is all I can get locally. I have noticed over the last year that a couple of them have had coat changes even though they have been wormed.

Thanks, 
Vicki


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## Leo (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi,
I'm not sure what you mean by"coat changes" but if you live in a high iron location like I do, you may find your herd looking copper deficient even though you feed them "goat minerals".
Megan


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## VickiLynne (Feb 8, 2008)

Leo,

I do live in a high iron area. The water source for the goats is on same water conditioning system as our house.
What I mean by "coat changes" is that on a couple of goats, their hair on their backs is growing the wrong way (sideways) and all squirly like they got electracuted. I hope I am making sense. And Hannah (nubian) who is black with tan trimmings now has reddish fringe down her back legs.

Vicki in NC


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## Leo (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi Vicki,
I had a similar problem with my black doe after I moved to our new place(never had this problem at our old place about 30min away), copper bolusing helped alot, but she still wasn't the deep black I was used to so I changed their buckets to plastic since the metal ones were rusting(thought maybe zinc might be hindering absorbtion?) and stopped feeding sweet feed on the milking stand(now just whole oats). Then I noticed a big improvement. 

I'm not sure about the hair being fuzzy though, maybe someone can help.
Megan


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

the black doe losing color is a major tip off, good pick up. I would definitely bolus if it was me.


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## CarlinsDarlin (Feb 8, 2008)

Yet another something I didn't know. 

I've had GoatLix minerals out for my goats since I got them. But, my black LaMancha doe has a tinge of red to her hair these days. I thought it was just a change in hair color as she's gotten older. I didn't know it meant low copper. 

This is a high iron area too. We have city water now, but when I was a kid we were on a well. There's so much iron in the well water here that mom used to take her whites to a laundry mat in town so they wouldn't turn orange. Toilets always had an orange tint to the bowl from the iron buildup. But that being said, the goats usually drink either rainwater or water from our city water... so I don't think the extra iron should be affecting them.

Anyway, I called both of the local feed stores this morning to ask if they have copper boluses. They don't. Is this something I'm going to have to order? or is it prescription only?

Thanks,
Kathy


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

You order calf boluses (Copasure) from Jeffers or Valley Vet - then you have to resize them for your goats using empty capsules - also available at Valley Vet. I think there may be instructions in 101?


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/copper.html

More 'how to' info.


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## VickiLynne (Feb 8, 2008)

Thanks Rose for that link. The picture of the black doe is exactly what I was speaking of. I am definitely going to bolus my goats now.

Thanks again everyone.

Vicki in NC


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

yep and wiry hair is another clue


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## rojen (Nov 28, 2007)

Boy am I glad for this forum!

I am having the same hair look. Copper was something I have been looking for in the vet and ag supplies it is not available locally. Looks like I'll ship it in.

How about coperas, does that help? I am well into growing my own feed, but I need to make up for the lack of copper in my soil. My doe has gone to the wirey reverse stripe on her back. The buckling too. But his hair changed from *regular wirey* to soft and fuzzy like some newborn kitten except the stripe down his back. Both also have dandruff. Her worse than him. It has cleaned up some since I got them, they have a lot better diet than when I got them, but they still have it. No ticks or lice or fleas though; even tho the neighborhood dogs are full of them.


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## CarlinsDarlin (Feb 8, 2008)

In the link that Rose posted, there was information about using Copper Sulfate in a drench? Has anyone done this? I've never given a bolus and sticking that bolus thingy down their throats scares me . I'm worried I'm going to scratch someone's throat!

My local feedstore is ordering the Copasure for me, though, so I'll have to do the bolus first... I'm just thinking a drench (which I have more experience with) would be easier. The whole "root killer" thing is a little unsettling, though...

Kathy


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## MysticHollowGoats (Nov 5, 2007)

I have not had to drench anything yet and the idea of doing that scares me.......if you don't do that right fluid can get in their lungs!


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

The bolusing is not hard at all. I promise.
If you get the little plastic baling gun it goes quickly and easily. 
We've done our adult crew twice now and the yearlings once. All are due again next month. I no longer fear the bolus.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I have a hard time keeping the goats from chewing the bolus, even if I put it way back there. Anyone else have that problem? I started sticking it in there, and then puting the balling bug sidways in the mouth and using that to keep them from being able to chew while tipping their head up until it goes down lol.


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

You need to stick it way way back. Over the "hump" which is the back of their tongue. It will seem like you are choking them...but that way they can do nothing but swallow.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's why on this site I don't like the article Rose sends folks to. I prefer saanendoah.com where the actual research on goats was done. Because if you read the research you wouldn't drench with copper sulfate. It's dangerous. Vicki


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## CarlinsDarlin (Feb 8, 2008)

My local feed store says their supplier told them they aren't carrying Copasure anymore. He says he thinks they're trying to make it a "by prescription only" med here in AR. I don't know. I'll have to order it on line to get it. I can do that.

The two girls I'm stressing over (now that I know about coat changes) are both pregnant and expected to deliver the first week of May. Is there a problem with bolusing this late in pregnancy? If for some reason I can't get the Copasure before delivery, or there's a problem with bolusing this late, what problems can copper deficiency cause in their kids?

Every new thing I learn gives me one more thing to worry about... :/

Kathy


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki,
Last time I went to saanendoah.com, they had changed the articles that were available, and I couldn't find what was needed. Please let me know which article you would recommend that is up.

Thanks!
Rose


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## Leo (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi,
Petsmart here sells a "boluse gun" for dogs,(I think it's $2-$5) It's a white long tube that fits the smaller pill size great, just put the tube all the way back, plunge, and they swallow it with minimal chewing, plus your fingers don't get cut by their molars.
Kathy, I've only been giving them copper for a year now, but haven't noticed any issues with giving them their copper late in pregnancy. 
Megan


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## Thermopkt (Oct 25, 2007)

As far as administering the bolus, I've found with my goats that if I give them a mouthful of grain or alfalfa pellets and then tilt their head up and bolus, it all goes down a lot easier. They hardly fight (comparatively), just give me a weird look and swallow the bolus so as to get on with the all important eating.


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## CarlinsDarlin (Feb 8, 2008)

Well, I ordered the Copasure and capsules from Valley Vet. I have a bolus gun (just have never used it  ). I guess we'll see how easy it is when I get the supplies.

The black doe (LaMancha), as I said, now has red hair, so I know she needs the copper. I don't know whether anyone else does or not - should I go ahead and give them a bolus as well? Can they be copper poisoned if they don't really need the bolus? If one is low on copper, I think the others probably are as well, but I don't really know. One of my Nubian doe's hair is not as shiny as I think it should be, so she probably needs one - though she is blonde, so I can't tell from hair color. The other's coat is still shiny and pretty. I only bought her last October ... what do you think? And do I need to bolus my buck? I brought him here in December. (I'll need hubbys help for that...)

Kathy


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Kathy, its just my own take on it- but if youve got one animal showing deficiency, and a couple of others with early signs- I'd bolus them all. I think the only way they would get overloaded is if they were already had high copper reserves. I'd estimate the chance of that is pretty small since theyve been there, with the exception of the buck for at least 5 months. Unless youre sure that the buck was bolused in the fall or since then, I'd hit him too. The reason I mention about them being there, is that theyve have been preumably all eating the same feed, minerals, water, browse, pasture, hay etc. So the same conditions that caused the of deficiency in the first doe to show signs are affecting all of them. She may have started with a bit lower copper status or need more and be your canary in the coal mine, and the rest are probably low but not showing overt signs yet. It is a tough question since theres no good way to really lab test copper levels except by liver biopsy. So its a judgement call. Using the above logic, which is how I'd think it thru if they were mine, I'd bet theres a good chance they are all low, and that leaves them open to other problems like increased parasitism, poorer immune systems, and reproduction problems. 
Since first reading this thread I went out and looked mine over critically, since it's been a few months since I bolused. Sure enough, the alpine is fading out to reddish brown on her flanks. So I'm real glad you brought it up, I might have missed it a bit longer if you hadnt. 
Vicki, you'll get a kick out of this- I'm going to get the rx I picked up yesterday for MultiMin filled and just shoot them all instead of messing with bolusing. Now, since i have a deficiency in at least one, and I'm going to give this a try, any info you want me to collect on this to see what I can document on effectiveness?


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## CarlinsDarlin (Feb 8, 2008)

Well, I bolused the girls today. After three attempts (each) of spitting the capsules out, they promptly _chewed up_ the capsules :sigh By that time, the hubby was tired of helping and wasn't about to go through round two. Hopefully they'll get at least _some_ benefit from what went down. I think the capsules were too big. I'm going to try to see if I can find some smaller ones - there was leftover room in the ones I used, and I think the smaller ones will go down easier. Since they chewed the capsules up, on another thread someone (Vicki?) said they would need another 1/2 dose. I'll need hubby's help to do it again... will probably have to wait a while to get him to help me again. His plate's pretty full this weekend and he's irritated enough about all he's got to do. :nooo

They're due to kid the first week of May or so. Would it be okay to wait a full month and do it after they deliver? (I'm thinking they'll be lighter and easier to handle then.) If so, should they still only get one half the dose?

Kathy


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I've been afraid to bolus, but even with the good mineral, I've got one doe whose color is fading.

I ordered the boluses today. Yes, I'm nervous. :down


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The problem is the only reliable testing is liver biopsy...and even I haven't ran one of these in about 4 years. I do know for me as long as I do my whole protocoal my high copper minerals are adeaquate here. It does freak me out just a little that some of you are bolusing and using high copper minerals without any tests ran. Vicki


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

this is imperative reading if you are bolusing (IMO). Discusses actual dosages. You want to avoid toxicity just as much as deficiency. Copper toxicity can be deadly.

lot of reading on that link, but very good reading.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

AAARGH!!!!!!!!! :help2


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

Reading this thread I was just wondering if some breeds are more sensitive to low copper levels than others? Also, can low copper levels be associated with poor weight gain, or generally not being able to gain weight properly?

Ray


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> The problem is the only reliable testing is liver biopsy...and even I haven't ran one of these in about 4 years. I do know for me as long as I do my whole protocoal my high copper minerals are adeaquate here. It does freak me out just a little that some of you are bolusing and using high copper minerals without any tests ran. Vicki


 Vicki,
What about hair analysis, like it commonly done with people? Our tests we sent in mentioned you could do pets.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Ashley- thats a really neat idea! can you contact them and find out? First question Id have tho is how would we know the reference for normal? Its probably going to be different in goats than in other critters, two legged or four. I'd guess the very best way to determine it woudl be to take a hair sample at the same time you ran a liver biopsy.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I was wondering the same thing. Yea, if someone did a few that way, then you could build a good reference. They aren't cheap though ($52)... but what's a liver biopsy cost?


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

I think its higher IIRC when I asked Vicki about it awhile back I think she said it was 75 bucks or so. The thing is, the shipping of a frozen sample is probably going to add quite a bit to that also, i'd guess its going to run over 100 total for most of us. Shipping hair would be a LOT cheaper and easier!! Even if we could just get a ballpark off it, and get a reliable screening test, it would really be helpful.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

http://www.analysisofhair.com/pethairanalysis/index.html


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks, Sondra- wow that was expensive, they wanted 100 bucks for the smallest test.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yea, these tests are definitely cheaper, they are for people, but they say you can do pets too. If someone wants to try it, let me know.


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