# Argument over "over feeding" bottle babies, who's right?



## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

Here is an article I found online regarding bottle feeding and not overfeeding. There are many online that way overfeed their kids. Weigh the newborn. Convert its weight into ounces. Calculate 10% to 12% of total bodyweight in ounces, divide that number by four feedings, and feed that amount over a 24 hour period. Example: An eight-pound kid weight converted to ounces is 128 ounces. 8 x 16 oz - 128 oz. Multiple 128 oz by 12% = 15.4 ounces. Let's be generous and round up to 16 oz, Divide 16 oz by 4 feedings = 4 oz per feeding. Recognize that this amount varies by sex and number of kids in the litter and is higher for heavier newborns.Check the kid for a full tummy by placing it on the ground on its feet, supporting its own weight. Stand over it, facing the same direction that the kid is facing. Place your fingers in front of the back legs on both sides of its tummy. The tummy should feel firm, not hard and not squishy. If the formula provided above doesn't accomplish this, adjust it upward a bit until you achieve the needs of that particular kid. This is not a written-in-stone rule; common sense must prevail.The amount of milk changes as the kid grows, and the percentage of milk to body weight increases too. But by about two to three weeks of age, the kid is much more physically active and eating some solid food, so the chance of over-feeding on milk is lessened.My point is to illustrate how quickly you can over-feed a newborn or very young kid. This is true if you use goat's milk, cow's milk, milk replacer, or any formulation of your own concoction. A kid will suckle until it drops if you let it. It doesn't know how much is too much milk. You have to control milk amounts, just like dams do. A kid has to have enough time between feedings to digest the milk in its stomach or undigested milk will accumulate and kill the kid. Overeating on milk is a painful death. It doesnt actually describe the feeding like Laurence Laird Pc does.

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*I just got a 1.5 month old Alpine doeling recently. She is a little smaller than my 2 week old buckling. The lady who owned her was only feeding her 6 ounces of milk, threetimes a day.
She believes that many people overfeed their kids, and reallyyou should only give them a little at a time frequently during the day, just like the dam would have, or else extra milk just sits in the stomach and can't digest.
I always thought that you give em as much milk as they want each feeding, which is three times a day. Of course this is withraw goatmilk, not milkreplacers.
This lady even sent me this article from a Dr. Laird Laurence, who is a vet in Fredericksburg, Tx. The article is written up top, before my thread...

Now I want to get this doe to gain someweight. I know you have to do things slowly, no drastic changes, can I just give her 2-4more ounces every other feeding, until she is drinkibg allshe wants?
She is still drinking warm milk.

Anyone know aboutthis vet, Laird Laurence? Supposedly he knows a lot about goats...not sure to believe that yet...
Anything I can tell this lady? Maybe give her the links to the Enterotoxemia articles in GK101?
If this thread needs to be moved to OT, go right ahead...


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Well, I just figured it all out and *POOF*. Something ate my post. Anyhow, I figured by that calculating a 20# kid would be limited to 11oz 3xday. Mine are drinking a qt by 20#.

I think this mentality is for people that want their kids on feed and weaned early (meat?). Not me. My kids are on free choice til 6 months and I've never had one *drop over*. They get full they stop. 

Now, if you're limiting a 20# kid to 11oz 3xday and then just let them have all they want, then you'll probably have problems. Change over sloooowly. Just like anything else to do with goats.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

And by limiting that 20# kid to 11oz 3xday, I'd hate to think the age of that kid. We just started our first cocci prevention yesterday. Kids are all 3 wks old (born within 4 days of each other). Five doelings. All weighed between 15-19# (weighed 4.5-6# at birth). You'll never get that 10#/month weight gain by limiting milk.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

OMGosh. I just reread that. You have a 1.5 month old alpine doeling getting 6oz 3xday? By those body weight/percent calculations, she weighs just over 10#. ?? She shoulda weighed nearly that at birth. Has she been wormed or put on cocci prevention?


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I never heard of all that in the article you posted. It seems pretty complicated and definitely not enough milk. I don't feed full choice milk like some people, but I start out letting them have as much as they want four or five times a day, moving to twice a day by a month old and at that point they will be drinking a half gallon per kid per day. My eight week olds are 40+lbs. I guess you can feed less and they might not die but they certainly will not have the rate of growth that is normal for a healthy baby goat.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

So are you feeding her the 6oz still? I would offer her a 20oz bottle full of warm real goat or cow milk. Just give her at least four hours to digest it before offering her more.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't care what anyone writes, or says....go look at their website, if you don't appreciate their animals, have similar goals as them....why are you listening or reading anything they say? For myself, that would not grow out kids who are 100 pounds at 8 months who I can breed. So since it would not help me meet the goals at my farm, I didn't even bother reading anything she wrote once I realized the milk amounts. It is doing nothing but starving the baby to start eating anything and everything they can....there is no better food than milk for an infant ruminant, nothing. Vicki


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

I wholeheartedly agree with what Vicki says! How much do you think a dam raised kid on a well producing dairy goat is eating per day?? - even at a week old I can assure you it is far more than 20 ounces per day - that is not much more than half a quart.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Idiotic.

You want as much milk in them as you can get (provided you start them out that way or if they have been limited, work them up to it). The only reason to limit milk is a availability/cost. They grow better and have better immunity. An animal being starved like that is going to be much more prone to coccidia and worms and infections. Babies on mom will get up to the point of eating a gallon a day in no time, and they always do better. If I let a kid be dam raised, a single so they get a ton of milk, they will not require cocci prevention or worming until after weaning, even living with adults in a pen that's had goats in it for six years. This is how I prefer to raise my keepers


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Yes, they eat alot. It's really sort of amazing how much they can put away.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

doublebowgoats said:


> I never heard of all that in the article you posted. It seems pretty complicated and definitely not enough milk..


It's all over FB on some groups.  Being told to new people. And don't try to tell them any different--they'll come back that you'll kill your babies if you feed them too much. :fire On *those* groups--I don't give general statements. I tell what *I* do and tell them to go to my page and my business page and look at my babies pics. Go to my website and check out my goats, look at their LA, DHI, etc. It won't change the minds of the ones preaching these crazy practices, but hopefully the newbies have a seed planted and do some research on their own.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

If you watch a kid with their dams, it may look like she hardly lets them nurse, but when you separate them you see they are probably getting at least a half gallon a day and probably quite a bit more.


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

I agree. Those little buggers can eat fast! I timed it once, my little
Nigi doeling could down a 20 oz. bottle in 10 seconds flat. So, if their
mother lets them nurse for even 20 seconds, that is a lot of milk. 
Even my Nigerian crosses take 40+ oz. a day by a month or so old.


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## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

I know, I was completelyshocked when she toldme she was giving her only 6 ounces per feeding. Now, she is up to 12 ouncesper feeding, I just got her Monday. I want to increase her milk as fast as I can, but I don't want to do any damage or go too fast. How much should I increase her milk each feeding? 
When I feed her, the poorthing guzzles her milk down super fast and begs for more...
She did have a fecal the day before I got her, no coccidia, not sure about worms. Her previous owner got the fecal done.
I will start her Corid today, I will also go and weigh her right now...


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## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

Alright, just weighedthem. My 3 week old buckling weighs 19 pounds, and the little 6 week old doeling I got weighs 13 pounds!


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Awww. Poor baby. Yes, just take it slow. Add a couple ounces per feeding per day and watch for loose poo or belly ache if it's too much, too fast. And, yes--any new kid should get a round of cocci prevention and wormed right away. I'd give a CDT vac too, and then another in 21 days.


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## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

Even though she already got two CDT shots already? Breeder gave CDT to her dam 3 weeks before kidding, then gave the doeling a CDT before disbudding (the antitoxin), then another 3 weeks later...


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

The CD anti-toxin isn't the vaccine. It doesn't prevent the disease, it treats it. Yes, I'd give her a CDT vaccine now and a booster in 3 wks.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

You're kid is starving, Taylor. Feed it! Up it slowly, but up it!!! My 3 and 4 week old kids plus a 5 week old buckling get about 80 oz in the lambar at one time, fed 3x/day. Sometimes they finish, sometimes they don't. The older kids drink more than the younger ones, boys eating more than girls. Do they stop when they're full? Yes. Now sometimes they get distracted, especially two little girls I have, but they get back on. As they keep finishing lambars, I keep upping the amount I put in there. But when they're done, they're done and their bellies are full. I really don't believe this Dr. Laird Laurence.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

13 lbs at 6 weeks is really shocking. Even if someone believes in limiting milk to some extent- at least feed an amount that is appropriate. This is poor advice indeed.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Yeah, my five 3wk old doelings are going through a gallon per feeding. That's about 26oz each. Some probably drink a bit more, some a bit less.

Taylor, just keep upping her bottles 2oz per day. Going from 6 to 12oz in a couple of days is good. Don't give in to her begging for more. Too much, too soon could be worse than not having enough before. Take it slooow, watch her poo. If it gets ploppy or she gets a belly ache, keep her at the same amount the next day til she gets *used* to it. A pinch of baking soda in one bottle a day is probably a really good idea to keep her belly acid down incase she does get more than she can handle. You're doing fine. Keep up the good work.


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## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

Believe me, no matter how cute she may look, she still acts like a little bugger, jumping on me (I stop her right away) and leaping in the air, trying to reach the bottle, I only give her what I'm supposed to for that feeding.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I can't believe that breeder would feed her kids so little. I can't imagine they would do well in the show ring if they are stunted. My Nubian bottle babies that were born in early March weigh more than your kid. Because of my job, I am only able to bottle feed twice a day. They are offered a liter at each feeding. Sometimes they finish it all and want more and other times they don't eat the whole bottle. From past experience using a lambar, I know kids won't eat themselves to death. I always put extra in when I feed the lambar due to some kids being more aggressive eaters. Frequently, there is milk left over when the kids are finished. I know when people feed replacers, they have to be more cautious and feed less because that stuff causes scours and bloat. When feeding goat or cow milk they don't have the same problem. My friend raises Alpines. She dam raises and her oldest set of twins, who were born close to when my goats were must weigh 25 pounds each. Her goats make a ton of milk.


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Oh wow! I've never seen a 6 week old Alpine kid under 25lbs, and I thought the 25lb kid was small!

I joined a few FB goat groups and I'm seeing some complicated bottle feeding advise and tiny amounts listed and I can't help but wonder where common sense went. Surely baby goat feeding isn't rocket science?

I feed my babies whatever they want from the beginning and just make sure they don't get so full that their belly is hard and tight. Mostly my kids all stop themselves when they are full (with the exception of some piggy buck kids).....


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Mine get up to 20 ounces 4 times a day until they get older and are eating enough soilds, then they get 20 ounces 3 times a day. I like having them eat what they want so they grow well. This is what works for me.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I would add a pinch of baking soda to one of her bottles every day.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I'm wondering if that bad advice everyone is giving out or getting is based on feeding replacer verses real milk? I can't imagine that common sense would evade a person so outrageously. It's obvious when dam-raised kids are kept away from their mother overnight that they have been stimulating her to get quite a bit of milk. She doesn't limit them, why should we? And in six years of full-feeding kids I've never had one single case of floppy kid, or dead kids or whatever disease it is that starving them is supposed to prevent...We usually kid out 5-7 goats per year with twins for most does....so that is approx. 72 kids total, give or take a few....all full-fed without issue. From a lambar. Six were dam-raised on huge amounts of their dams milk.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

You have a good idea, Anita. I bet it IS advice based on how to keep from killing kids who are on formula. Certainly you wouldn't want to pour all that formula into a kid, whereas the real milk doesn't hurt them at all.


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