# uneven udder



## sherridi (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi everyone, I'm new to this form (but not to goats), and what a wealth of knowledge! I'm hoping I can get some opinions from you all - frankly, I'm stumped! I have a first freshener that delivered a large buck kid about six weeks ago. He chose the right side to nurse from. I milked the left side, but it developed some congestion, so I applied a topical herbal cream, and it cleared up nicely within a week. The kid was removed from his dam at five days, and she was milked three times a day for the first two weeks, and then dropped to twice. The problem is that left side is markedly smaller than the right. There are no lumps, hardness, or heat in her udder at all, and the milk strains clean. I taped the left teat, thinking maybe she was self-sucking, but that's not the issue. Does anyone have any ideas has to what is causing this? And do you think it's permanent? Any help would be greatly appreciated ~ Thank you


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Don't know if it will be permanent, but perhaps the side he was nursing is larger because it received more stimulation, with the kid nursing small frequent meals throughout the day. Does that side produce more milk than the other? I have a baby (human) that prefers one side over the other, and she has caused it to produce more milk. Seems it might be the same for a goat.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Did you milk out his side at all? Milk is supply and demand, in my herd if I didn't take out the colostrum from a side, it would make that side larger from stretching, no way one kid can take out all the colostrum and all the milk....so she stops making as much milk, so although the side is larger than a handmilked side, from actual over uddering, it also likely contains less milk. I have seen udders even out from year to year, but what doesn't get better is the maturity of the teat.

In the end it seems that 12 weeks of lambars is a lot less work than all this uneven udders, congestion, edema etc  and for me does who don't want you to touch their udder if their kids nurse, the attitude I just can't take. I don't think there is anything to do this year, just keep milking her.

Welcome to the forum!! Vicki


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## sherridi (Jul 11, 2011)

The larger side produces about 1/3 more milk than the smaller one. Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my post!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

What I learned from nursing three babies is that pumping is never as efficient as a baby nursing. Hand milking twice, even three or four times a day is never going to be as efficient as a kid who is nursing constantly throughout the day. (Hence the reason the hand milked side got congested but the nursed side was fine.) So while you are right to milk the neglected side (if you want to be able to milk it), there is going to be unevenness. It will go away at the next freshening. It is very common in does who nurse one kid.
Teat openings are another thing to look at. On my pair of udders I joke I have a slow flow and a fast flow. Interestingly the newborns favor the slow flow, but favor the other when they get older. The slower side is smaller. Goats nursing twins who are uneven may have a side with a narrower orifice.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

If you like dam raising, don't let this discourage you cause it should even out next freshening. I have been very happy with the results myself. I wrote a blog posting about it:

http://stillwatersfarm.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-i-dam-raise-kids.html

I have had to reform a few I bought from other farms who thought they shouldn't be milked while with kids. When you train up your own doelings with this system, it is usually not a problem. They take it as a matter of course that they will be milked.


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Sometimes those udders will even out and sometimes they don't, just depends on a lot of factors. And for whatever reason, even if there are twins involved, they both go for the same teat, hence all that tugging, sucking, etc is elongating that teat and there goes the eveness of that udder! As Vicki mentioned there really isn't anything you can do this year.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> Hand milking twice, even three or four times a day is never going to be as efficient as a kid who is nursing


Ummmm I think there are some people with goats on ADGA verified milk test with very beautiful balanced udders producing phenomenal milk totals taking awards all over the country that would argue this statement. I hope new comers to dairy goats will understand this is one outcome of one type of goat care.

The very *Inefficiency* of the kid is the issue here.



> It is very common in does who nurse one kid


It is well known that there are drawbacks to dairying and to dam raising both. But the most important aspect needed to insure success of each style of goat rearing is attention to detail constantly. You cannot 'milk when you want to' and expect any kind of success. Wild goats and uneven udders are the result. Dams with low success rates in milk production with ever shortening lactation curves are the result. Kids with variable health are common.

I have always dam raised but they are also up on the milkstand with feed and an udder exam 300 days a year even if I am not milking them twice daily. There is no way to turn over a high production dairy animal to a kid goat to milk without ending up with National Geographic udders.

Welcome Sherri- keep in mind that not all goats have even udders. The GOAL is evenness- it is not a given or an automatic happening. You can of course MAKE an udder uneven but there is no guarantee any particular doe will have equal halves to her mammary system.

If you keep her immunity boosted and nutrition balanced and do milk out any excess twice daily from the_ minute _she has passed afterbirth (like Vicki said- no newborn can take all the original colostrum production) until the kids can take ALL her production in a 12 hour time frame you should be able to even out her udder.

Many of us have dam raised for decades producing lovely udders and growthy kids as well as does that have long productive lactations. But not by leaving it to nature or milking when we feel like it.

Lee


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Lee, I think what you are noting speaks not to the efficiency of hand milking or the inefficiency of kid's nursing, but to the phenomenal efficiency of our goats in producing milk under the conditions we subject them. A woman could not pump twice a day and sustain any kind of lactation. In fact, it is very difficult for a woman to sustain lactation even pumping every two hours. I know because I tried my darnedest for my child with cerebral palsy. I was bone dry in six weeks. But wow, my goat managed to feed my baby and hers on my 'milk when I want to' management. Success of course is subjective. If you want show perfect udders and award winning lactations, that is one type of success. But one could argue having milk when you need it with little fuss is another type of success. What those National Geographic goats manage is some kind of awesome.
I also think newcomers can probably exercise their critical thinking skills and decide what their own personal goals are, and what they will need to do to achieve them. One thing I learned quick about goat raising is their is no agreement on anything, and everyone is right.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I really should not have to point this out but your personal experience with breast feeding has NOTHING to do with dairy goats. Nothing. Not one thing. Just because they are mammals and produce milk does not mean you can translate your experience attempting to nurse your children to everyone learning about rearing healthy successful dairy goats and their offspring. 

Most new goat owners are more likely to stick with it and enjoy owning goats if they have good results. Like friendly goats and trouble free kidding and milking for a decade from a healthy cooperative well grown dairy goat that produces vital trouble free offspring. This takes dedication and resources and a commitment to learning. 

We have huge archives here that could solve a lot of misconceptions and management issues should anyone care to read previous discussions. Use the left hand search button at the top of the page and enter a simple topic name and you will get many threads with much good info for furthering learning about goats. It seems to work better than the search blank on the right.

I would also suggest visiting local herds that you admire and talk with the owners about their management including parasite reduction schedules and feeding regimes and their breeding and kidding and milking results. Join your local goat club and attend meetings and shows and find out if your local university has any dairy goat related programs. Often schools will host speakers and seminars and much can be gained toward furthering success by interacting with breeders working in your local conditions. It is all well for someone is one part of the country to say what works for them but conditions and demands in other regional areas vary widely. Get involved in your local goat community! 

Lee


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I would like to apologize to you Sherri for the derailing of your post into personal discussion of irrelevant information that cannot be translated to dairy goats. The personal failure of a human to milk is in no way a teaching tool for success with dairy goats. 

My purpose in posting was to warn about casual care ideas that do not work and in fact give rise to much of the ridicule and derision directed at goats that serious breeders have been trying to overcome for decades. 

It is important to make sure new goat owners know that you simply cannot leave udder care of a newly freshened dairy doe to her kids even if you plan to dam raise. This is a recipe for many kinds of disaster and we do spend much time coaching and cleaning up messes that are made by 'letting nature take it's course'. 

There is nothing whatsoever natural about a modern dairy goat and because we have enhanced their production capabilities and feed them for production we are also responsible to ensure that their expanded capabilities do not become their downfall. 

Good Luck with your doe Sherri and sorry for the rather rowdy welcome. 
Lee


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

swgoats said:


> You are not going to convince me that hand milking twice a day is pulling more milk than a kid on a doe 24/7. It defies logic. More stimulation=more milk - period, end of story.


I'm still trying to sort out the "on-demand" type of management discussed here and on another thread... I'm not trying to pester- just trying to understand a management system different from my own. Let me see if I can figure this out: Kids consume a finite amount of milk. You want a doe that will adjust down to meet only the demands of her kids and not become over full even without being milked. Supply and demand, you mentioned. However, your quote states that does who are dam raising produce more milk than those being milked. The issue in the other thread was that there are does out there who, when dam raising, become overuddered because they produce more than their kids can consume and need to be milked. One could milk them twice daily and they would continue producing enough each day to feed their kids PLUS give you extra milk. The point being, not milking them means they produce less milk.... like the difference between a doe meeting the needs of one kid or the needs of four. My question is this: When kids consume a limited amount compared to what the doe is able to produce if milked, how is it that does dam-raising (and not being milked) are going to produce more milk? Particularly when the goal in this "on-demand" management style is for the doe to drop production to meet only what is demanded of her by the kids (and irregular milking) as previously mentioned?

With busy schedules I can see the appeal of "part-time" milking. I'm just failing to understand how it could possibly result in higher milk production.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Oops! Sorry, I'm totally not helping with getting the discussion back on track... :lol


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## Tallabred (Jun 12, 2008)

Kids will nurse on the "easy" side. So if you milk the "fuller" side, and keep the udders balanced - the kids will nurse more evenly. I did not keep up on this last yr and my doe dried up on one side. Then I have one whos kids died and her udder is not even - my fault or genetics? - I don't know, probably my fault


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## sherridi (Jul 11, 2011)

Thank you everyone for your input. I should have paid more attention to her udder in the days after kidding - probably would have eliminated this issue altogether! I'm not familiar with dam raising - will do some research and see if it's a good fit.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Part time milking does not result in higher milk production, it results in over-uddering of the doe, which is what produces blown teats, uneven udders, etc. Our modern dairy goats are bred to produce much more than what their kids will need. Less milking by us will yes, eventually result in a doe that produces less milk, but at the cost of the udder. 


In the past I have had 3 does with uneven udders. Only one nursed her own kid, and despite milking her twice a day, her single kid only nursed one side and that year she was very uneven. There was nothing I could do. One doe developed unevenness as a result of a case of mastitis, and one doe became slightly uneven when I went to a once a day schedule at the end of last season, (she did not kid last year and was milking thru). All three does today have even udders.


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