# hypocalcemia, Toxemia, Ketosis and milk fever?



## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

I have read several of the articles under Goat Keeping 101, while all the information there is incredibly interesting and informative, I am really lost on the key differences between hypocalcemia, Toxemia, Ketosis and milk fever. Please excuse me if I, in my excitment and exaustion (I have 3 yr old and 10 day old daughters) missed something or misunderstood, please don't judge me LOL But could someone take the time to explain to me the significant differences here; especially in diagnosing and treating each of the above mentioned ailments. Also are any of them the same ailment, just different terms? 
Is it true you can get human ketosis strips to keep on hand to diagnose ketosis in goats?
thank you


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2009)

Hi welcome to the forum and congrats on your new baby! Goatkeeping 101 is a great place for new people to start on this forum  

I’ll try to break down these conditions for you.

Hypocalcemia (low blood calcium) would be the predominate condition. It is often called Toxemia if it occurs while the doe is pregnant and Milk Fever while she is lactating. The treatment is calcium replacement therapy. Ketosis would be the secondary condition caused by hypocalcaemia. It is build up of ketones in the body that happen when the animal goes off feed. Treatment for ketosis requires energy replacement therapy. 

The best prevention against hypocalcemia is correct feeding. Follow Sue Reith’s advice of a 2:1 calhos raitio. Do not over feed grain to pregnant does and do not decrease the alfalfa.



Christy


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

hypocalcemia and milk fever are the same thing---acute calcium deficiency. The difference is if it happens before kidding or after kidding. Symptoms would be lower temperature, muscle tremors, if they are in milk, lower production.

ketosis is a by product of the hypocalcemia/milk fever (or other sundry diseases). you will smell sweet breath and yes, human dipsticks should show ketones if there is ketosis present.


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

So can Ketosis result from ANY illness in which the animal goes off feed?
Does it say on the feed tag the phosphorus/calcium ratio? 
would it be dangerous to offer a free choice calcium source like in loose minerals? I
f my grain is not sufficient can I mix something into it to balance the calcium? 

My does are not on grain right now as noones in milk, almost everyone is bred 2-4 months along... They are on high legume hay but not alfalfa. The hay consists of Birdsfoottrefoil, hair vetch, Orchard and a few other legumes I can't remember the name of right now... we grow and bale our own hay- according to the USDA the plants we use, cut and bale are almost equal to the nutrition quality of alfalfa but I have not had it tested yet... they get it free choice 24/7... thanks!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi in legumes means it's high in protein, many hays are as high in protein as alfalfa. Calcium is the key. Yes if everything else on your place is balanced and you know you have no defficencies, than calcium carbonate and calcium sulfate in your minerals is enough so your does can balance their own calcium levels in their bones and blood. Knowing where you are from, your not. And 24/7 on hay with that much protein in it you are feeding a super high protein diet to non productive does. It's the protein that causes all the problems that comes with the old cow info on taking away the girls alfalfa before they kid, not the calcium in the alfalfa.

Test your hay, since you grow it this would be simple. But do know your copper deffency problems will scew everything you think your does ought to be doing on your wonderful hay and small amounts of grain the last 50 days of pregnancy and through lactation, like it should on paper. Your does are nutritionally stressed when you don't deal with low copper, high iron, low selenium levels....and how much can be fixed with mineral preperations of these? We don't know. Why feed stuffs high in calcium, copper and selenium or selenium injections timed correctly, copper oxide needles bolused into the rumen to be slow released and dietary calcium from alfalfa rather than calicum carbonates simply works better. Why? No idea.

Ketosis is also a disease of the fat goat. As energy reserves need to go up the last 50 days of pregnancy, she starts pulling this energy from her fat...a good thing normally, it will slim her down. But putting these ketones into her blood and urine kills the kids. When a heavy bred fat doe stops eating her carbs (grain) she goes into ketosis just like we do on the Atkins diet. In pregnancy it's detrimental to the fetus.

But in most cases I agree, ketosis is the end of a poorly managed doe who is not treated for the hypocalcemia she actually has been in, likely for some time. Vicki


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

Hmm so what should I be looking for? Noone is severely overweight, I have 2 chubbier goats but they're just a hair thicker then I'd like, I don't think they're really fat fat. Everyone else is well fleshed but now overly so... I am having this coming years hay tested so that will be a non issue this coming year... The herd has been moving out to graze lately as well, don't ask me why, they think the grass is growing, although I don't see it... they have gone up about half a bale a day in demand, not much at all. they have free choice baking soda, protein block, iodized salt block and lose sea salt. They also get selenium gel , ADE& B12 gel and calcium gel every 6 months... and of course 24 hr fresh clean water...

what should I be doing differently and how do I find out what we're defficient in?


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

You need a mineral that is high in copper and selenium. Not only are WA OR and ID deficient in these minerals, we have extra goodies (like molybedenum and iron) to interfere with the minerals uptake.

You can copper bolus your goats 2X year (Jeffers calf boluses) and you can give Bo-Se pre-breeding and pre-kidding. Plus Bo-Se to newborn kids. I would rather have a really good mineral and then supplement with the above two as needed. Copper helps the immune system (fewer worms when goats have higher levels of copper) as does selenium.

You should be able to find a good cattle mineral with higher selenium (90ppm would be nice!) and copper (1800ppm or more).

Where are you in WA? If you are close to N. Idaho I might be able to steer you toward a brand and a feed store that carries a good mineral. If in W. WA, try to find out what the dairies over there are purchasing.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

protein block
......................

Make sure it doesn't contain urea. The excess feeding of protein is huge in blocking absorption of calcium in your does. So much so that most who feed high quality alfalfa hay and protein blocks can't breed their does to kid as young yearlings because they will bow their legs. Vicki


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"As energy reserves need to go up the last 50 days of pregnancy, she starts pulling this energy from her fat...a good thing normally, it will slim her down. But putting these ketones into her blood and urine kills the kids."

but the same happens with human kids, why women should eat well in pregnancy and never try to lose weight. maintain their weight maybe if overweight to begin with, but not lose. It harms developing brain cells and I believe that the same thing will happen with goats as well. You may think that you are OK, goat kids seem fine, but there are deficits already due to maternal diet. Happens with people, happens with goats.


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

Okay I'll ask my local dairy breeders. I live in NW Washington, I am wedged right by the ocean and Canada so not too many places to go LOL I was unaware high protein feeds block calcium absorption, that's scary. Can I give copper bolus' during pregnancy? Should I give each doe some of the CMPK I have (it's a paste for cows) 
I dont' hae BOSE only selenium gel- will that not work as well? I'm working on a Jeffers order right now 

thanks for ALL the advice!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You want to read read read, then sit down and figure out how you are going to change your management to improve overall herd health. Bolusing for copper is a given so sit and read the copper page on here. Saanendoah.com has been down with broken links so we saved as much as we can here, now I heard, not from the owner, that the site is going to be back up and fixed...a blessing it is such excellent information about goats for goats studies on goats.

No you don't want to be using the CMPK orally and not the paste for sure. You will find I do things differently but I don't want to be using anything oral that I don't have to, but also it works poorly. I do keep MFO and CMPK liquids here to use after a crisis, but I always choose injectable first.

If a doe who is on alfalfa or calcium is having a crisis, than why would more oraly calcium work if the dietary calcium isn't. Use it injected.

I would find out about your hay, what is the protein? Do you need the protein licks? What is the calcium level in it compared to alfalfa hay? Maybe start offering alfalfa pellets slowly right now? A handful, increasing by handfuls every 3 or 4 days is slow.

No I don't use oral selenium. Once again if on a good percentage of selenium in their grain and minerals, and natural selenium in hay etc...why would giving more oral selenium help? I use Bo-se which is a selenium and vitamin E preperation, it's a vet script.

Don't think you have to reinvent the wheel either. Some of your management is likely perfectly sound for your area. Also go to ADGA.org and join a local club, see what vets are already molded by other dairygoat folks to give out what some vets won't. Vicki


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