# CIDR questions



## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

I've been reading a bit on CIDR's here and I'm thinking about using it on one of my Alpines...she's almost 2, never kidded. 

Don't laugh too hard, but is inserting & removing the CIDR's difficult? I have no one who can show me (had to learn disbudding by reading online & youtube videos) how to do this & I don't want to order everything only to be stuck when it comes to actually having to put it all to use. And I'd hate to think of what I'd do if I got it in, but couldn't get it out.....Never seeing the process, I have lots of horror scenarios conjured up in my imagination......

My other Alpine has already cycled & I bred her on the 29th....

This Alpine I REALLY want bred.....she can get fat on air it seems.....last year, before I owned her, she was put in with a young miniature buck. No pregnancy, breeder didn't try again. I don't know if it was the bucks age/size (another doe put in with him also didn't take but is now bred this year) or if it's her, but I really, really don't want to feed her another year with no kids.....I know it's still early yet but I'm thinking I'd like to try the CIDR's & PG600 to stack the odds in my favor a bit. 

I've also considered penning her with my buck, he stinks to high heaven & is very close to her in size (standard alpine buck, 8 months old) in hopes he might bring her in, but I would like to have an exavt due date so I can induce with Lute & catch all kids, so I don't know if I should run him with her or try CIDR's..


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

How easy is it for you to tell when she is in heat? I have pen bred before, but still knew the due date, by watching for signs of estrus, as well as the does rear will be yucky after breeding usually.


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Crystal -- it is exactly like putting in and removing a tampon. No big deal at all. They will hunch up when you do both, but it doesn't hurt them at all.

I'd try the CIDR on her -- it will give you a definite starting point, and maybe babies 

I have to pull 4 CIDRs myself this morning...


----------



## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

She is not cycling yet, that I know of & I've been watching like a hawk & taking her to the boys fence line every night for 2 weeks. Vet said she was too fat so now I'm worried that she may not come in, or if she does I won't notice it. My other Alpine has already cycled 3 times & I bred her last cycle....This "fat" doe though...nothing yet.

She's been on nothing but alfalfa pellets & grass hay since the end of May, and this past month I've been limiting her alfalfa pellets as well & she's not really slimming down any that I can tell. I brought her home in April really thin, so she had grain in small amounts twice a day until I got her condition up.....stopped all grain and treats at the end of May, but she still gained weight on just the alfalfa & grass hay... If it matters, she's also added 3 inches in height since coming home...

Here's a link to a recent blog post of mine so you can see.....She is the doe in the first 3 pictures "Bleuberry":
http://noodlevilleadventures.blogspot.com/2011/08/hay-fairy-vanishing-youth.html

Is she too fat & that's why she's not cycling or is it just still too early yet (despite my other Alpine coming in 3 times already)...


----------



## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Tracy in Idaho said:


> Crystal -- it is exactly like putting in and removing a tampon. No big deal at all. They will hunch up when you do both, but it doesn't hurt them at all.
> 
> I'd try the CIDR on her -- it will give you a definite starting point, and maybe babies
> 
> I have to pull 4 CIDRs myself this morning...


Awesome! Thank you. Just wanted to know what to expect so I didn't order it all & then find I couldn't do it.

On the PG600 I'm seeing two packages......one is the 5 doses in one vial, and the other, a little bit pricer is 5 individual dose vials. I'm wanting to use this on my Alpine ASAP.....then I'm thinking of using it on my Lamamcha does (bringing home this weekend) late November.....and possibly 2 does for my friend who will be using my buck... For storage I'm assuming the more expensive, 5 individual dose vials would be better since I'm planning on using these several months apart correct?

Also, I'm seeing that many reuse the CIDR's. If I'm going to reuse, I need to clean with chlorihexidine solution after removal and then how should I store it? Ziplock in the fridge & don't tell hubby where it's been? hehe

Don't want to waste, and every penny counts so if I use one on my Alpine, and for some reason it doesn't take, if cleaned & stored properly, could I reuse that one again?

Is there anything I need to be aware of or watch out for? Obviously being very careful & very sanitary would be a must I assume to avoid infections, and OB lube would probably be helpful....Anything else?

I'm kind of excited by the possibilities here! My friend is buying a doe from me, then getting stud service for the doe I'm selling her & her other doe.....The prospect of running my boy over there several times & hoping we've got the timing right was not something I looked forward too....This simplifies everything! 

Plus, now that I know about this, next kidding season I can synchronize all my heats... I'm pretty excited here


----------



## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Ziplock in the fridge & don't tell hubby where it's been? hehe 
:rofl 

I dont know the answer, I have never reused, if we used CIDR's its only on one or two does at the same time and then not again until next year so never kept them around to reuse


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

pipevet.com sells individual CIDR's and applicators.

Yes you can reuse them one more time.

Do not order the big bottle, once you reconstitute it you have to use it right then and throw it away, and it's an IM shot. It's so cheap though you could just buy 2 if it's your only choice. Vicki


----------



## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Thank you.

I already bought 5 CDIR's from Paula today and will order the PG600 & applicator gun later. 

As to the PG600, I found a box that has 5 individual dose vials for $46..... I think that'd be the better option for me since I can mix it just one dose at a time & save the others, unmixed for later. 

Nicole.....once my friend collected semen from one of her stud dogs (she was staying with me at the time while her roof was being fixed). Got it all collected, mixed in the semen extender & put it in a small cooler in the fridge....Hubby came home to grab lunch....opened the cooler, didn't recognize what was in there. Saw the empty tube of semen extender on the table....checked the cooler again & called me, freaking out! "Honey, PLEASE, PLEASE tell me that is NOT dog semen in the fridge?!"  lol

I think I just won't tell him what the CDIR's are....especially if I use one, then clean & store for later use. 8)


----------



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Do realize that the '1 dose vial' is 1 *hog* dose, don't use that al in one doe!!!!! You can do 3 goats with that and you can keep it in the fridge for about a month (even though instructions say you have to discard unused portions). After you mixed the liquid with the powder you have 5cc of PG600, the goat dose is _exactly_ 1.5 cc/doe, so you'll have a little bit left after 3 does. For your 5 does, you'll only need two of the one dose vials and if you're not going to do more does that month than your MIXED left overs need to be discarded, while your 3 unused/unopened packages can be kept for a long time (a year? hmm, you'd have to ask Vicki, not sure)


----------



## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Ohh! I'm so glad I came here to ask questions before jumping in!!

This is the PG600 I'm looking at:

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e076d4-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5 The one that is $46 & change. Each one of those vials in the 5 pack contains 3 goat doses correct? Nice to know I can get more than one for with one vial.... I think I may be doing my friend's does...including one she's buying from me so at least those 2 can be done from one vial...For my Alpine though I don't have anyone I want to come in at the same time (unless my other girl bred on the 29th didn't take). If the unmixed vials can store for a year, then I'll be able to use them next kidding season 

If it can be stored in the fridge for a month after mixing, could you draw doses in a syringe & freeze to extend life a bit better?



Trysta said:


> Do realize that the '1 dose vial' is 1 *hog* dose, don't use that al in one doe!!!!! You can do 3 goats with that and you can keep it in the fridge for about a month (even though instructions say you have to discard unused portions). After you mixed the liquid with the powder you have 5cc of PG600, the goat dose is _exactly_ 1.5 cc/doe, so you'll have a little bit left after 3 does. For your 5 does, you'll only need two of the one dose vials and if you're not going to do more does that month than your MIXED left overs need to be discarded, while your 3 unused/unopened packages can be kept for a long time (a year? hmm, you'd have to ask Vicki, not sure)


----------



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Yes, each '1 dose vial' is 3 doe-doses plus 'change' (0.5 cc). I CIDR'ed 4 does at a time (I had two bucks available, so they each could deal with 2 ladies...)' 4 days apart until the next 4 does. So for the first 4 does, I used 1 whole vial, plus 1 cc out of the next one, and put the leftover mixed 4cc in the fridge. 4 days later for the next four does I needed 6 cc again so used the 4 cc leftover and 2 cc out of the next bottle I mixed, refrigerated my 3 cc leftover, and so on. 

I gave PG600 in the morning, pulled CIDR at night (both on day 21, Vicki's protocol) and the put the does in with the buck when they started showing heat, usually somewhere early-late afternoon on day 22. If I could not be home to make sure breeding time was perfect, I put the does in with the buck in the morning on day 22 and kept them with the buck 2 or 3 days, just to make sure, It's better to be home and keep your eyes on them, though, so you have an exact breeding date and know the does have been bred.

I am not sure about freezing doses. Some meds are okay with that and others really aren't. Since these are hormones, I think I wouldn't risk freezing, but does anyone else on the forum have knowledge (or an opinion) about freezing PG 600? The way I bred the does, I didn't feel it was necessary, I think I ended up throwing 2cc away, and i still have a few unopened bottles in my fridge which I will use next year for off season breeding or, if I have a 'trouble doe' this fall. I never did use CIDRs in the regular breeding season so far. Are you sure you need them for these does? Now that the weather has cooled down, it looks like my does are coming into heat by themselves (do have a VERY stinky buck in the pen beside them...) R


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You do not want to ever use more than 1.5cc of PG600 on a doe, IM, no matter her size, breed or age. More than that and you super ovulate them, in fact the protocoal we will use to super ovulate for ET we are hoping to do, is with dosages like that of PG600. The high dosages is what gave us quints, and what gave others quads in young does who aborted the kids about 100 days pregnant...the uterus can only hold so much weight until the cervic opens and excpells the contents, cooked all the way or not.

It's pretty common knowledge that you do not keep and reuse your PG600, both with sheep info but also we have been using these products for about 8 years now in our goats. Unopened there should not be a shelf life on CIDR's, they are afterall just plastic applicators imbedded with progesterone, just keep them cool and dry in the fridge, in their foilish pouch. I just use ziplock on used ones and had no problem reusing them one more time. I was the one who used them the third time, with guesses from many that they should still be fine....they aren't  V


----------



## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Thanks all, I think I have a good handle on this now.

I think I'm going to do my Alpine doe first, and will just loose the extra 2 doses of PG600 in the vial. For my friend's two does, I'll do them at the same time so I won't waste as much & I'll know an exact date to bring my buck out there...... I didn't really want to leave my buck there, nor did I want to keep her does here so this will be perfect.

Oh, Vicki, I sent you a PM.


----------



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

If you CIDR your friends two does about a week after your own, you can use the same bottle of PG600 (It'll keep that long) and not lose more than 1/2 cc, saves you a whole bottle of PG600, gives you ample time to get your doe bred by your buck first (if that doe does not come in withing a week after removing the CIDR, something definitely went wrong. My earliest was about 14 hrs after removing CIDR and my latest I think around 36 hours), and then bring him to your friend's does.

Do check the CIDRs daily if they are still in! Someone told me to do that, and I did that for the first bunch I did, never any trouble, so I slacked off, but when I did my last two does, I also added some new does to my herd, and I guess they liked to pull CIDRs out, because both those does 'lost' their CIDR, and since I didn't check daily....I had to do them again after awhile (they did not come in heat, as I had hoped)


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I do put the extra length of 'string' into the vulva, especially with LaManchas, and how mouthy they are, I always worried that they would pull on that string. I have never lost a CIDR. Vicki


----------



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Oh, that's a good idea, Vicki. Ha, yeah them LaManchas sure are clowns, but this time I actually added a small group of Lamancha/Nubian crosses. A buch of curious scaredy-cats that apparently were helpful enough to pull some CIDRs for me... Oh well, you live and learn! Never did find those two CIDRs either...


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I paint the end of the CIDR string with red nail polish and cut the ball at the end off. That way their penmates can't grab it easily, and I can just take a glance and see if they are still there.


----------



## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

:yeahthat Exactly what I do, when I use CIDR's.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Have you two ever had a CIDR fall out? I have never had one fall out, the way they are made unless you don't get them into the vagina far enough, so the wings flex out past the muscles...there is no way for them to come out.


----------



## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I haven't lost any.


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm straying a bit, but what are the reasons to use CIDR's?


----------



## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Estrus induction for out of season breedings or sychronization for breeding.


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I've never lost one either.


----------



## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Ok, please forgive me for the 500 questions... I've ordered my CIDR's.... going to order my PG600 next week...

I'm seeing several different protocols & I'm lost. 

One I was told to use has the CIDR in for 12 days with lute & PG600 being given.

2.5cc lute given on day 1
2.5cc lute given on day 11
CIDR removed on day 12, give 2.5cc of PG600 
Day 13 in heat.

I've seen a few variations of this....different # of days, less PG600 ect. ect.

Then I've seen mention of leaving the CIDR in 21 days, removing, giving PG600 (1.5cc) then ready to breed next morning...... I've also seen mention of leaving the CIDR in 14 days, removing, give PG600, the ready to breed next day.

Basically I'm suffering from information overload. 

I'm trying to bring in a doe (Alpine) who didn't settle last year, and I'm trying to bring her in to have her due date fall at a good time for me (we have birthday parties & a weekend out of town lined up in spring so I want to ensure I have no kiddings then). 

Can I do this without Lute? Should I leave in for 14 or 21 days?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I insert the CIDR in a doe with her vulva cleaned with chlorhexideen. I insert the clean CIDR, cleaned with chlorhexideen with the applicator, yep, cleaned with chlorhexideen. I press the CIDR into the doe with the applicator right up on the vulva, not pulling it away at all until the CIDR is in her, she should hunch just like she does when bred by a buck.

I hide the extra plastic string inside the vulva.

Give 1.5cc IM of Pg600 in the morning of day 21 and pull the CIDR the night of day 21. Put her in with the buck the next morning and she will be in heat and bred that evening or the next day, rarely does it take 36 hours. 

This is what the forum is for, everyone posts what works for them and their goats. Then you have to choose which advice to use. Vicki


----------



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

:yeahthat (protocol) WORKS!


----------



## Kenneth F. (Sep 15, 2011)

I've been watching this thread for a few days as IR interest me also there is a video on YouTube called fun with a goat and a cidr. I have no idea how accurate the info is but it sounds like most of what you read and shows inserting one in two does at the end mine should be here tomorrow trying to get mine bred before a friends Buck is loaned out to his partner


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Do you have to give the Shot or will CDIRs work without it?


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I do the 14 day cycle, and it has worked EVERY time so far. Preg testing 5 yearlings this week to see if they took for fall kiddings.


----------



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Oh, that's good to know!


----------



## ak_sundog (Mar 16, 2013)

Okay, it's 2013 now and things have changed, apparently there's no more single-dose vials to be had. Would love to hear others' experience with trying to break it down into smaller doses for storage. 

Suzy


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I did find this, without an update on how well the frozen pg600 is working: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/goats/453880-big-bottles-pg600-waste-not.html


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Best take that thead with a huge grain of salt...


----------



## ak_sundog (Mar 16, 2013)

*PG600 2013 update*

Here's a 2013 update on PG600 -- good news & bad news. For those that don't already know, Merck (who bought Intervet, the product manufacturer) will not be making the single dose vials in the future. This is the response I got from their marketing manager today: "We discontinued the single dose volume due to low dollarsales volume and are not planning to bring the single dose presentation sizeback to the market."

The good news, vets at the "ask a vet" feature at www.pipevet.com confirmed that it can be successfully frozen and stored indefinitely (the vet wasn't sure how long, but figured at least a year in the deep freeze), so now the 5-dose vial isn't such a bad deal after all. I really like the idea of storing in the red top tubes for future usage. I'll probably put a bit less than 2 cc per tube in order to ensure being able to draw up 1.5 cc per goat dose. That's 15 -16 tubes per bottle, or about $2.10 per dose at Pipestone Vet's current price of $33.14. The other thing I learned is it does NOT have to be shipped refrigerated (2nd day air) and they ship for free (even to Alaska!) for orders totaling $100 or more. As mentioned by someone else -- ask me next year how well this worked. 

Suzy in AK
Chinook Wind Registered Alpines


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

The person, Mygoat, who froze it, I sent her a message. She said that she used it on a couple does and they cycled again after being bred. She said others have used the frozen PG600 with success, but that was in-season breeding, so it may have been that they ovulated without it.


----------

