# Can a goat have cocci without diarreah?



## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

I got a question here. Can a goat be suffering from Cocci and NOT have diarrhea? 

I was gifted a goat, who has some "issues." I wonder if, as a kid, she didn't have coccidiosis which affected her rumen or gut. She's small and thin. I just found out she's deficient in either vitamin E or selenium or both, since a few ml of Bose made her feel better enough to go into heat. She still looks thin. (vet is a cow man, doesn't know squat about goats, except he thought she should eat more --although she is on free-choice forage and hay already). Already wormed the dickens out of her.

What, other than diarrhea, would indicate a problem with cocci? What would be the signs of that genetic disease of Nubians? (I forgot what the letters and numbers were). I'm trying to figure this out. It could be something as simple as a mineral and vitamin deficiency, or a misspent youth, or . . . who knows? 

Now I'm wondering about cocci and how could I tell? 

Chris


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

YES they can have cocci w/o the runs, first vet I tried insisted adult goats can NOT get cocci and if they don't have runny poo they don't have cocci [NOT TRUE]... after losing about *6k in vet bills*, lost breeding feed, dead goats, wasted feed etc they give up and do a fecal (as I'd asked from day one!) yup, it's cocci! Don't even ask me about the run around with cheap water additive coccidistats, we treated them according to the vet with the stupid water crud and not at the dosage directed here either, killed a handful more goats... oh what a tragedy cocci can be! FECAL fecal fecal, it's the only way to know (at least that I know of...) good luck!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

anytime you bring in new kids you should start cocci treatment and then prevention. They sure can have cocci with no diarreah


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

If she was not raised on prevention her gut is scarred and damaged and will not absorb nutrients even if you do get rid of a current load. That is one reason for thin older kids and young adults.
They cannot ever grow to their potential with a scarred gut.
I was just forwarded an article on cat's claw as a way to repair but it is much better to prevent the damage.
Since the tests mentioned were not on ruminants I really don't know how effective it could be but thought someone may have tried this?? I would hope they know it works in ruminants since the author is a small ruminant specialist.

Repairing Intestinal Damage (caused by coccidia) 
by Carol Delaney
Small Ruminant Dairy Specialist
University of Vermont

Ideally, the offspring of a goat or sheep is raised by its dam for optimum health and immune system development. Weaning animals at a young age as a compromise to collect the milk for our use, leaves those young stock more vulnerable to disease. When a flush of kidding starts and the kid pens are not kept as clean as necessary, the wee ones can get a high dose of coccidia. The source is the ingestion of fecal matter from older animals who have had a chance to develop some immunity and are shedding spores or oocytes. The kids can't handle a high dose before their immune systems are ready to fight back and painful and bloody scouring occurs. Dairy replacement lambs on pasture can pick up coccidia spores from adult fecal matter and may develop bad scours.

When farmers face these extreme cases in a normally well managed herd or flock, they often treat with coccidiostats to beat back the infection and save animals from death. This treatment can arrest the proliferation of the coccidia that are invading, disrupting and causing inflammation and bleeding in the intestinal wall. However, it does nothing to help the intestine heal back.

At the Alternative and Herbal Livestock Health Conference4 held in Storrs, Connecticutt (Oct. 20-21, 2000), Drs. Sandoval and Miller presented convincing data of their research with Uncaria tomentosa, uña de Gato or Cat''s Claw. Cat's Claw is a vine that quickly grows in Peru and the bark is harvested for its medicinal value. In their research trials, they caused chronic intestinal inflammation in rats artificially with indomethacin and later infected chickens with coccidia oocytes. Both cases produced pronounced disruption of the mucosal architecture with loss of villi as shown in histological sections of the ileum. When Cat's Claw was prepared as a decoction (5 gms bark simmered 30 minutes in a liter of water) and given to the rats and chickens, there was marked improvement and repair of the damaged intestinal wall as compared to the control groups.

While Cat's Claw is not a coccidiostat (as natural rearing or cleanliness as prevention and drugs as a treatment are), it is very useful in helping the animal to more quickly recover and may prevent some scarring. The damage and pain are resolved and the intestinal wall is brought back to doing its job of absorbing nutrients and protecting the body from infection. Its actions are anti-inflammatory and demulcent. Cat's Claw can be ordered at health food stores or from herbal catalogs.

Reprinted with permission from the author.

4Conference proceedings are available from NOFA-Vermont (www.nofavt.org, [email protected], or (802) 434-4122).


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Very interesting on the cats claw, but wonder how long they waited before using it? It sounds like there was still active inflammation... aren't we talking more about scar tissue leftover from inflammation? Would certainly be good to use when doing treatment.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

> If she was not raised on prevention her gut is scarred and damaged and will not absorb nutrients even if you do get rid of a current load.


I would rather say here that it is more than likely damaged if the goat had not been on cocci prevention as a kid However she could just have an over load now from moving or any number of things.



> What would be the signs of that genetic disease of Nubians? (I forgot what the letters and numbers were)


G6

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,72.msg159.html#msg159


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And remember it's supposition from Vermont, those in the south take this kind of info with a huge grain of Corid  Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Have you looked at her eyelids? is she anemic?


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Sondra said:


> Have you looked at her eyelids? is she anemic?


She's not anemic. Just thin. I treated her with ivermectin, praziquantel and 3ml of Bose (usual dose here is 1ml twice a year, and that's what she had been getting). The Bose must have done the trick -- she was living with her buckling for a year, and didn't go into heat -- then I give her 3ml of Bose and she goes into heat! (Now I've ordered Lute from my vet, and am about to ship out the buck for goat-loaf and BBQ).

I'm ordering copper boluses.

She did start looking glossier when I took her out of quarantine and put her out to graze. Her rib cage never expands the way a dairy animal's ribcage should -- even with unlimited grazing and some really nice grass hay. It could just be her build. Her "buddy" right now is a huge East Friesian ewe with big sprung ribs, heavy flat bone and oodles of robust dairy character. The sheep just eats and eats and eats its way through whatever forage it sees. The doe does not -- I have never seen her belly full of forage. Just picky? Genetics? Or is something wrong?

I seem to recall that goats are pickier eaters than sheep. Right now I am giving her as much Calf Manna as she will eat out of my hand -- which is a pound or two a day. She's dry, so hand-feeding her is our "alone time" to socialize. She starts out greedy and then loses interest.

I talked with her breeder, who said that she is a small, narrow, fine-boned goat genetically, so to pick a wider, heavier-boned buck to breed her to (or don't pick a narrow, delicate buck, at least!). Apparently she did well as a kid in shows. Other people have looked at her and told me "well, some Nubians are just smaller" as if there is nothing wrong with her. Maybe all that is wrong with her is that she is not an East Friesian dairy sheep.

I plan to have her AI'd in a couple months. I don't like using medications unnecessarily, but if she has silent lingering illness or parasites or something, this is the time to treat her. The vet just doesn't know goats -- thinks she looks thin -- so I asked him if I could add corn oil or canola oil to her calf manna and he didn't know.

BTW, Calf Manna is 25% protein and only 3% fat -- so possibly she could use more fat.

Most likely nothing is really wrong with her, BUT, she responded so well to the extra Bose, that I have to wonder what OTHER sub-clinical problems may be keeping her thin? I don't think she will ever become an "easy keeper" but, I'd like to do what I can to make her the best goat she can be. And besides, I want to AI her in a couple of months.

So . . . would it do her any harm to give her a "prophylactic dose" of Corid or something? (I can't believe I'm asking this -- I usually try to avoid all unnecessary meds)>

Chris


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Get a fecal done which will tell you if indeed she has cocci but also if your wormers have worked. Also Corid needs to be used when babies it is not a treatment so use Demethox 40% at treatment doses if she needs it.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

That description of her body and eating is exactly a gut damaged animal.
Poor rumen development and scarring. She may improve after she establishes a compliment of micro-organisms to digest the particular forage and hay you are feeding her. This takes time if it is going to happen. Yes some Nubians are smaller but they should all have a barrel.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Sounds like a kid not raised on prevention (cocci and worms), I have seen it first hand this year after following the protocol to the T , and this year's kid crop have a body style of the adults (big deep and wide barrels) at 4 months old. If genetic and the goat is narrow by built, is her chest floor narrow ? Is she thin with no visible barrel (like a hot dog on legs) or thin to the point of seeing ribs, not conditioned properly? 

Jana


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

How abt a picture of her?


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

prairie nights said:


> If genetic and the goat is narrow by built, is her chest floor narrow ? Is she thin with no visible barrel (like a hot dog on legs) or thin to the point of seeing ribs, not conditioned properly?


She is very narrow from front to back -- I think of her as being an empty envelope! Anyway, her ribs are not sticking out individually, but, her gut never expands. Under the loin area she is sort of sunken. This is really noticeable when the dry ewe next to her looks like a walking pumpkin! She is thin, but she's also super narrow. My computer is giving me a lot of problems and I can't get pictures from my camera onto my computer - if I get it into the shop and they can fix it, will try to get a picture up. Might take a day or two.

Chris


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

I just realized that I have a big bag of BOSS. Do you feed a handful or so a day, or is it more like a pound or two? She definitely could use both muscle and fat on her carcass. And she's fussy.

I'm going back out to hand-feed miss prissy her manna pro and then get her a taste of Boss. 

My vet is officially retired and doesn't do fecals anymore. The dog and cat vets here are awful. Will have to mail a sample to Cornell or something.

Chris


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Go easy with all new food introductions.
BOSS is very high oil and high protein as well and you could being an upset in digestion.
Limit to a very small taste building up gradually until she can develop what she needs to digest it.


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## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

Someone posted this site a while back and vicki put it up on the Wormers threads - it's a place to send in your fecal samples for just $5 ea. I haven't tried it yet but remembered it when reading your post
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,14929.0.html


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

I would give her just a little BOSS each day. Gradually build up to maybe 2 handfulls daily but that is about all she needs. What is she eatting right now? I would try to add alfalfa and possibly a good grain.
Theresa


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

From what I understand the goat can only fill the rumen size she has developed. Sometimes gestation helps them add more maturity to the body but it won't fix problems that are due to management growing this doe out. How old is she?


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

prairie nights said:


> From what I understand the goat can only fill the rumen size she has developed. Sometimes gestation helps them add more maturity to the body but it won't fix problems that are due to management growing this doe out. How old is she?


That's what I am afraid of. She's just three years and five months old. Has kidded twice -- first kidding at one year and four months of age, second kidding at two years and one month -- but did not kid this year.

It is quite possible that I am just used to big-barreled goats and sheep. Over 30 years ago I had one husky big American Togg in 4H with a huge dairy spring to her ribs - - people used to comment on it. My sheep came from a commercial dairy where they were selected for their ability to turn local excess forage to milk. A few months ago I was talking with someone who used to run a goat dairy in the MidAtlantic area and they seemed to be feeding huge quantities of grain and very little hay to their goats. My sheep eat huge quantities of hay and silage year-round, plus grazing, and very little grain. I dunno.

It has occurred to me that she could represent a classic example of a coccidia or worm damaged kid that never developed its gut properly OR could just be different genetics than I am used to. You can select for "easy keepers" just as you can select for those that produce better on concentrated feeds (TMRs or high grain input or whatever).

Chris


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Right now I am giving her as much Calf Manna as she will eat out of my hand -- which is a pound or two a day.
..................

Not to take away from all the sound advice above, but I am a realist.....

This is the danger in coming to a new forum. You get all sorts of information and then pick one thing. This is way to much soy protein and overkill on the minerals and vitamins in this pellet. It is a supplement pellet it is not a complete feed. It's actaully scarry bad. Increasing the fat over 3%, most dairy goat diets are 3.5%, with oil, how much, you will be on tommorrow with her having diarrhea.

Every change you make she has to build rumen bacteria to 'eat' the new product. It takes weeks. Her whole life right now is about new, it takes months to get a doe in shape to be bred, is she worth the time and expense?

And I have to say this, to what end. You have a very poorly conformed goat here, that you are going to improve how? Using a buck that can at most give you 50% improvement, would that fix her? Wasteing a straw of semen on her? Is she slab sided and Nubian and G6S positive? Is she even worth testing? Being slab sided and narrow, usually seen in no spring of ribs, no angulation back to the last rib when seen over the top, and no width between the front legs and hocks (rear elbows) she can never grow or milk to her potential let alone give anything of substance to kids, there is no place to eat like she should to grow, because she can't fill out her rumen, let alone milk.

Not all animals bred should be registered, should become breeding stock, it's what a good culling program is for.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Well, if you think about what goats and sheep would naturally eat, lots of hay and little grain is obviously a more natural diet. I think that "huge quantities of grain and very little hay" might give you high milk output in the short term, but is not conducive to long term health. Short-sighted, IMO.


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Every change you make she has to build rumen bacteria to 'eat' the new product. It takes weeks. Her whole life right now is about new, it takes months to get a doe in shape to be bred, is she worth the time and expense?


I think she is worth it. :yes I see improvements week after week. You are absolutely right -- she may in fact have less of an appetite now because she overdid it on the Calf manna (which I just looked up, and yes, it is supposed to be 1/4 to 1/2 lb per day per goat). :duh

I have been very confused by the varied and contradictory advice I have gotten from various goat owners on the net.

Prior to this she was eating a pound or two of grain a day (corn/wheat/soybean meal). For some reason I thought the Calf Manna was a complete feed for calves, so an acceptable, if rich, feed for a ruminant. My other option was to increase the soybean meal for a "flushing" diet.

My sheep eat almost no grain at all -- they just eat and eat and eat forage and hay. One of the characteristics that dairy sheep are bred for is "greediness" (I kid you not!). If they didn't have good rib-spring they would explode! :shocked

I wonder if some strains or genetic lines of goat or other livestock haven't been selected to utilize more grain, thus not needing as big a rib-spring to hold it all in. 



Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> And I have to say this, to what end. You have a very poorly conformed goat here, that you are going to improve how? Using a buck that can at most give you 50% improvement, would that fix her? Wasteing a straw of semen on her? Is she slab sided and Nubian and G6S positive? Is she even worth testing? Being slab sided and narrow, usually seen in no spring of ribs, no angulation back to the last rib when seen over the top, and no width between the front legs and hocks (rear elbows) she can never grow or milk to her potential let alone give anything of substance to kids, there is no place to eat like she should to grow, because she can't fill out her rumen, let alone milk.
> 
> Not all animals bred should be registered, should become breeding stock, it's what a good culling program is for.


I wish I could share a picture. She may not be as slab-sided as I described -- she just isn't a superior dairy animal such as my East Friesian sheep are. Honestly, I am so rusty in my knowledge of goats as to be worse than a newbie -- I see her as a deformed dairy sheep rather than a perfectly fine (if not great) goat. And to be honest, when I had Toggs in 4H, I thought some of the show Nubians looked sort of wimpy in comparison. So I may be judging her "through a glass eye darkly" (to quote Mark Twain).

I am currently trying to retrain my eye to see Nubian goats -- searching names on the web and finding pictures of famous Nubians of good type. The more I do this, the better she looks -- she has some good qualities. Width is not one of them. I think that a pleasant temperament and ease of milking are very important characteristics in a dairy animal, so I do not see this as a "waste" of good semen. AND if the kid(s) are 50% better, that is so much better than if she were bred to her son or any handy local buck that has a penis.

Hey, I'm retired. I have time on my hands. I enjoy puttering around and watching my critters eat and ruminate and breathe. And I could always use the meat, too. For now, I'd like to breed her and see what happens. AND I want to give this goat a chance to do the best that she can do -- and that means figuring out if she has some neglected sub-clinical health problems -- like coccidia or worms or nutritional deficiencies -- that could be remedied and make her life - -and her production - -that much better. :yes

I was looking at my correspondence with people who have known this goat. She was first in her class at her local shows as a kid (not saying much, as maybe all the local goats are "delicate" there). Her mother was also "narrow." A couple of people have said her buckling is beautiful, but he doesn't fit my criteria so he is going for goat-loaf and BBQ. She has very good manners and temperament, and is very easy to milk. I have not milked her myself, but can see the teats are healthy and of a good size for hand-milking. I'd like to make the best of her, and have a little goat milk on the side. :milk

Chris


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

very eloquently put! Good luck with her.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I wonder if some strains or genetic lines of goat or other livestock haven't been selected to utilize more grain, thus not needing as big a rib-spring to hold it all in. 
.................

Ah.....NO  Your fooling yourself again.

Grain is not your friend. It should be used sparingly and with reason. First and foremost should be her alfalfa hay. Your grain should only compliment your hay, period. Anything other than that is to the detriment of a doe. Your sheep have huge rumens why they look like they are going to explode, it has nothing to do with fat. These are not meat animals. 

I just can't imagine getting back into goats, you aren't a newbie, and not wanting to start with the best, use what you know and your back peddling now, she is narrow, she is slab slided and she is not going to give you kids you will admire. Your not some sentimental young new person I am going to coddle...which is hysterical on it's own since I don't' coddle anyone  Peace, just hate to see you spinning your wheels. Vicki


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Vickie,
Hey, I like problem-solving and improving on things, and making plans and decisions. She could be the most perfect goat in the world, and I would want to fuss over her genetics and make a breeding plan for her. She's nowhere near the most perfect goat in the world, and that makes her a more interesting problem! :biggrin

I want to make her blossom and figure out her strong and weak points, and see what can be done about them. I'm learning. And she may not be as bad as I had described her.

Since I last wrote about her, I was thinking about WHY we choose to breed for good conformation and over-all soundness. 

I went out goat-shopping. I had my answer: I saw some old goats that were just exquisite, and next to them, goats that were, um, broken down. Same feed, same management, different genetics.

Why is it that some dairy goats are still active and healthy and PRODUCTIVE at age 12, and others are worn out at age six or seven?

The reason to breed for a well-supported udder, shapely teats, healthy legs, a strong back -- is not just for the show of it. A few years down the line, does with not-so-great ligaments, teats and udder form are going to be harder to milk.

Those goats with not-so-strong backs and poorly balanced parts are going to be worn out and saggy looking all over (skeleton as well as udder) and grumpy looking - and in fact they probably have reason to be grumpy because they probably have a lot of aches and pains. The unbalanced parts don't work together as well as they could, and the goats become less active. 

As for those goats with bad pasterns -- I didn't see any. I suspect that a goat whose pasterns give out isn't long for this world. Same as for those who won't let down milk or are really difficult to milk for one reason or another.

I'm not sure that my doe is nearly as bad as I made her sound. I'm still learning. She has her flaws, but she also has some good qualities. I didn't realize HOW good until I saw some other goats.

I want to address this goat's problems -- my ignorance, mineral imbalances in our hay and soil, her taste in feeds, her emotional needs. She seems to want to follow me everywhere and misses me, gets along with her sheep buddies but does not get attached to them. 

I wonder if her emotional needs could be making her pickier and less thrifty? Things I didn't remember about goats. I want her to be calm and content and to just watch her blossom and see what can be done with her genetics, too.

Chris


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

Maybe she would do better with a goat buddy. Sheep make good friends but for goats nothing compares to having another goat.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

has she had copper? Sounds liek she might benefit frim a copper bolus is she hast had one in th elast 3 months, and do you keep out a loose mineral thats high in copper? Yeast might help. If you can get stabilised rice bran, that and boss might be a good supplement for her. I'd personally stay away from soy until I knew if she had all other nutritional needs met. 

What are her genetics? Her DNA may be her greatest value if youre trying to breed good goats- because if she comes from a high quality and hopefully linebred herd, she may still give you great kids IF you can maximize her health enough to make it worthwhile. You may be able to research her papers and find out if her problems are more likely due to management than poor genetics. Putting her to a buck thats correct where she is weak may make a lot of difference. 

BUT and the BIG but here IMHO is that the crummiest cheapest goat costs as much to feed and care for as the best goat-and maybe more. Can you afford to play around with a poor keeper, if that is what she is due to irreversible GI scarring or other problems? Can you afford to breed less than desireable kids? Its not a snobby question, its a practical one. And only you an answer it, its up to you and what you really want and can afford to do. 

One thing I think Ive come to realize is that not all kids should be allowed to grow up and breed, just because they can. By culling out poor breed representatives we as responsible breeders improve the gene pool of the breed itself. By breeding anything with the proper equipment we multiply mediocroty. I'll probably never make it to the nationals, but I will make some small contribution by collecting the best genes I can afford and sharing them with others in my region. IMO thats a goal worth striving for.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I've had older goats with cocci problems that did not have scours or any real symptoms that I could notice because I didn't have anything to compare them with. I did a fecal and that's the only way I knew and had to treat...now, that wasn't fun with a full grown buck! That was a few years ago and the same goats look really round and full now. The does milk over a gallon and have good weight and are able to eat the grain they need to. So, cocci, at least in mild cases, can be overcome to the point that the animal will be usable.


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

LMonty said:


> has she had copper? Sounds liek she might benefit frim a copper bolus is she hast had one in th elast 3 months, and do you keep out a loose mineral thats high in copper? Yeast might help. If you can get stabilised rice bran, that and boss might be a good supplement for her. I'd personally stay away from soy until I knew if she had all other nutritional needs met.
> 
> What are her genetics? Her DNA may be her greatest value if youre trying to breed good goats- because if she comes from a high quality and hopefully linebred herd, she may still give you great kids IF you can maximize her health enough to make it worthwhile.


I believe she was deficient in selenium and vitamin E because she responded so well to it. I have ordered copper boluses. Will be worming again. I'm getting another goat to keep her company (her buckling is going for meat shortly, as I do not want him breeding). I'm trying to spend more individual time with her and meet her emotional needs. She's a very gentle, sweet animal.

I don't know a lot about pedigrees, but, searching on the web, I notice a few big-time herds with champion goats that are famous and have semen sold on the net. Some of those are in her great-grand-parent generation. A couple of grandparents are assessed for type. I think she may be a perfectly good goat from a remote area of PA where people raised good goats for family milkers and 4H. Nothing fancy, but still sound and worthy of breeding.

I'm having computer problems -- found some pics but am not able to shrink them to the right size to post.


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Anita Martin said:


> I've had older goats with cocci problems that did not have scours or any real symptoms that I could notice because I didn't have anything to compare them with. . . . So, cocci, at least in mild cases, can be overcome to the point that the animal will be usable.


AHA! :thankyou2 :yes

May I ask how you treated them to correct the problem? (My vet is long-retired and is a cow vet anyway -- and I don't trust the advice of the cat and dog vets around here). Sometimes someone who has "been there" is more knowledgeable. Would appreciate any tips you may have. :yes

Chris


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