# Kid with overbite



## Jacquelynn (Dec 2, 2008)

I just had a kid born with an overshot bite. It is pretty noticable. Probably about 1/4" longer on top than bottom. I don't want this doe in my herd so I don't feel comfortable selling her either. I should probably put her down right?

So, this post is not so much what should I do with the kid but, Is it genetic? Is this something I need to worry about in future kids from this sire or dam? Can it be a fluke thing?

Thanks! Jacquelynn


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

It most certainly can be genetic.

Do not sell her. She needs to be put down.

Sorry.

Sara


----------



## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

I also would not repeat the breeding.

Sorry

Patty


----------



## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

You would kill her Sarah? Couldn't she sell her as a pet w/o papers? I sold a doe with some conformation problems to a pet home where she lives with wethers, never been bred and she's very happy there... I can understand the option of putting her down to ensure this problem doesn't present itself in another herd, but do you have other reasons? IE would she not have a good quality of life? Would you put down or cull the parents at all?

I do know this is genetic and would make a note of the doe and buck to see if either of them bred to seperate animals throws this trait again or try to find out if they have a history of this in their ancestory- I would cull the parents if I saw this in any offspring again... Just my 2 cents...


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

cariboujaguar said:


> You would kill her Sarah?


Absolutely. A parrot mouth is a very serious defect. Serious defects and serious faults in conformation would be disposed of at birth. They have no place in any herd, papers or not.

Sara


----------



## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

:yeahthat


----------



## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Unfortunately Ashley there are times to know when to cull an animal at birth, this being one of them. An animal like this will have a harder time eating than all the rest thus not getting the right nutrition and then becoming a medical nightmare. And being that it could be genetic it is easier to not keep the animal that would throw the same genetics. If your in this for show or just good goats it makes more sense. Tammy


----------



## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

Would you mind posting a pic....I rread on someones site that they had a kid with a milk parrott mouth that out grew 90% of it by the time she was three months old and was fine as a yearling and now had a LA of 90EVEE...I will have to look for the site again. Is 1/4 inch considered a lot? And, is undershot less of a default?

BTW, I am totally not second guessing Sara on this! Just being new I am being curious.

Thanks,

Paula


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

Nubian kids sometimes (but not often) grow into an undershot jaw, but not a parrot mouth.

Sara


----------



## Jacquelynn (Dec 2, 2008)

Okay, I knew when I saw her I didn't want to sell her. Ashley, You gave yours to a pet home were she wouldn't be bred. Those are hard to find around here. And who's to say she won't be sold and then bred. I just don't see any reason at possibly letting her pass on those genetics. Also, as Tammy said, I think she could very well have trouble eating later on. I can post a pic for you to see.

I have 9 more does bred to this buck, including the dam and half sister of this doelings dam. So I'll keep a close eye on his kids. This is his first year to have kids on the ground except 2 last year that were normal. As far as any thing in the lineage, The dam I know for sure that there is no mouth problems at leat for 3 generations back. The buck I will do some research on.

We have never had a kid with bite problems before. Of course, my best 2 yr old... I didn't expect it at all.

Jacquelynn


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

As you stay in the goat buisness longer you will understand that there is no pet home for livestock, there are temporary holding facilities, but homes, no. If you can't pet her into your own herd yourself, than put them down. Do expect to lose sales with 3 legged goats, extra teated dairy goats, bite faults etc.. I look at it very differently but the quality of stock in your herd is set by the worst animal, not the best.

They are livestock folks, yes we love them probably more than most love their cows or hogs, but there is nothing worse than really the polution of the breed with folks keeping culls. It's one thing if this was a male you could castrate, but spaying of does isn't a practice that is done.

You could rebreed the line exactly and could have perfectly normal kids, most parrot mouth kids come with sibilings who are perfect. Just note this, that both your buck and doe in this breeding carry this. Nubians come from bite faults in goats. Most aged Nubian does have teeth showing when they smile or lift their head up high. So don't fool yourself.

I don't believe for one second bites improving with age. They get worse as does age, not better.

Set the management for your herd, hopefully it is set to improve, and keeping faults is not improving. Vicki


----------



## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

Well I admit this one situation was rare and it's not often I trust a 'pet home' for a doe, these people contacted me looking specifically for a fixed female, their pet wethers were nervous and they wanted an old doe who couldn't be bred. I informed them I wouldn't sell her to anyone who would breed her and they kept in contact for a long time, came to visit her 5 times, she adored them and they had vet references as well as 4-h and other people they had rescued animals from (priarily donkeys) I drive by her every day and she's still there living out her life. So yes, in this case, I got lucky. 

What about raising her for meat? It just kills me to think about letting a kid go to waste completely. Of course if she has issues eating she probably won't gain well and thus won't be worth much for a meat animal. I guess in all logistics it does make the most sense to just put her down, as I think about it more and more... just seemed like there are better options; which is a nice way to think about it until your eally start examining those options, then one starts to realize they are flawed.

Now one of the first breeders I bought from runs a great herd of healthy, tested goats, but her MAIN line has underbites and she was explaining to me the stigma's over the bite in goats. She told me it only counts for 2 points on the score sheet and her doe, all her does daughters, everyone who has this problem are perminent champions and their offspring are very sought after. She seems to sell alot of kids every year and shows extensively... is she kidding herself? Now I'm worried the 3 goats I have from her might exibit this problem in their offspring, I was too ignorant when I first purchased to question her opinion...

So how do I go about putting a goat down if I have this show up in my herd?


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Just wondering also... I know I've seen noses on Nubians improve with age. What might be close to flat at birth can grow into a very nice and very convex nose by age 2 or so. So... would this have any effect on the mouth? Like, would the development of the nose up and out pull the top jaw back any? (Thinking that if you get a slight parrot mouth in a line where you see this type of nose development that it might turn out okay? Whereas an undershot jaw in this situation would get worse?) Whaddayathink?


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

Billie,

I don't know how else to say it... but no.  Parrot mouths do not miraculously fix themselves.

Sara


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

: :rofl Just trying to be optomistic. I appreciate your healthy dose of reality. :biggrin


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

Anytime. 

Sara


----------



## Jacquelynn (Dec 2, 2008)

Another thing I noticed about this kid is that her muzzle was very thin. When viewing from the top, instead of a wedge from a wide forhead to a smaller but still wide muzzle her head looked more like a Y with it getting smaller to about the back of her lips and then continued straight. It was very narrow. Looked like someone had grabbed it and stretched it out. Very ugly looking :?

Would you all suggest getting rid of this kid's sire? I don't want to have a bunch of kids hiding these genes.

Jacquelynn


----------



## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

Do you have any pictures of the doe kid? pics of the sire/dam? that might help people answer these questions 

How would you guys suggst putting a goat down? call the vet or ??? I know with puppies we're drowned two who were bleeding to death. I knwo someone who held a dying kitten to an exaust pipe in a pillow case... so how do you guys put down a kid?


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2009)

cariboujaguar said:


> How would you guys suggst putting a goat down? call the vet or ??? I know with puppies we're drowned two who were bleeding to death. I knwo someone who held a dying kitten to an exaust pipe in a pillow case... so how do you guys put down a kid?


This is not something we generally discuss on an open forum. PM one of the mods or admins.

Sara


----------



## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

Jacquelynn, You have a very nice website and a lot of does. Remember this type of fault is a recessive gene so both the buck and dam are carriers. I am not experienced enough too advise you on the decision to get rid of the buck and Dam...I probably would not if I bought him and /her for a reason just from one kidding issue...I agree that I would not repeat the breeding.

Paula


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Would you all suggest getting rid of this kid's sire? I don't want to have a bunch of kids hiding these genes.
....................

One kid, it's one kid.

It's already hiding in the dam side also, and likely is in many other bloodlines on your place. It's Nubians...it would be like getting rid of LaManchas because they have short ears, we come from horrible bites, we are going to throw back to it now and then. 

It is likely well known to the bloodline owner and is a dirty little secret that you will never see breeders talk about on open forum or even to new breeders.

We all know bloodlines that throw extra teats, that have bite faults, those who have CAE, horrible problems with longevity in their herds, and the list is endless. Keep track of what you get out of your bucks and does, then make breedings and selling/culling decisions accordingly. Don't linebreed into a bloodline you have problems with.

It's a very simplistic answer to not rebreed the pair, not all genes match up each time. Rebreeding him to a doe who didn't throw parrot mouth last year could result in a kid next year. Rebreeding the dam to a new buck can still result in a parrot mouth kid.

It's actually why I have a new buck breed back a couple daughters, it shows you (usually) what faults you are dealing with in your herd. Vicki


----------



## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

BlissBerry said:


> cariboujaguar said:
> 
> 
> > How would you guys suggst putting a goat down? call the vet or ??? I know with puppies we're drowned two who were bleeding to death. I knwo someone who held a dying kitten to an exaust pipe in a pillow case... so how do you guys put down a kid?
> ...


Oh sorry, it seemed that everyone here was pretty professional and bold about things so I didn't think that question would bother anybody. But I totally understand!

Vicki, by daughters, you mean HIS daughters right? Do you suggest doing this ASAP with a new buck, breed him to his first daughters to see if he throws certain faults?


----------



## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I had a little buckling born a couple of years ago with a parrot mouth. Rather than put him down at birth, I decided to wether him and raise him for meat. What I learned from this is that a kid born with a parrot mouth often has other hidden congenital defects. In this case, he had something wrong with either his heart or lungs. He went through bouts of respiritory/off feed issurs and we lost him at a few months old when the area became smoky from forest fires west of us. I won't hang on to a parrot mouth again. His sire and dam were not related. My buck did not throw this defect in any other breeding. 
Kathie


----------



## Sunny Daze (Jan 14, 2008)

I had a ND kid born with parrot mouth in November. It was the first time I had come across it. Out of 15 kids by the same sire he was the only one. I did retire his dam from breeding though as she or her kids always had one issue or another (this was her second kidding with me). The frusterating part was I got home to find her in labor with this little guy stuck part way out. I assisted and got him out but he wasn't breathing. After I worked on him for a while I got him breathing again...only to notice his terrible parrot mouth :sigh We put him down but I wish I would have just let him go when I first found him...


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes Ashely his daughters  Vicki


----------



## Jacquelynn (Dec 2, 2008)

Thanks for all the help! I will keep an eye on all his kids. I have the dam and half sister bred to the same buck. Of course, they could be just fine. This doeling was a set of twins. The buck being perfectly fine with beautiful breed character.

Jacquelynn


----------



## Haglerfarm (Aug 11, 2008)

I am late in this conversation. Just wanted to put in an observation that happened to me a few years ago.
I used a nicely bred buck I had bought. I got a very parrot mouth buckling, (the only one I have ever had) but he was able to eat and did very well. He was wethered and given to a friend who wanted him as a pet. He was out with her herd of other goats. A year or so later, I was over there and was looking at her goats. And I asked about him as I did not see what I thought was him. I was very surprised to see a goat with a beautiful head and bite. His bite was perfect. I am sure this is not the norm, but it happened in this instance.
I do think that the bottom jaw does sometimes grow with age. I have had a buck or two that had good bites when young and as they aged they had slight underbites. Nothing terrible, but there none the same.
The sire mentioned earlier in my post never did mesh well with my herd. I do have daughters that are permanent champions from him and are very nice does. He was an outcross. I sold him to someone who liked those lines and that is what she was working with. He worked fine with her herd. That is always likely to happen.
Les


----------



## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

I raise LaMancahas and have had many kids born over the past 25 years. 
This year I had a buck born with a parrot mouth. First for me. He has already gone to the barbeque pit. I may never have another one born here but I know exactly what one looks like in person now.


----------

