# Disbudding guidance



## tlt0000 (Apr 28, 2009)

I just bought a Rhinehold 30X for my birthday. I am getting ready to do the triplets that were born on Monday. I am looking for advice on how to do it. I know the basics but don't have the hands on experience. I know I want a copper ring, but what does that mean, etc. Any help would be appreciated.

thanks,
tara


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I would youtube it. There ae several videos. My first year I had lots of redo's. I don't monkey around with ice like others. I burn quick once to make sure I have the center of the bud correct. Then I burn until the center easily comes off. I take the side of the iron and burn the middle and then I finish up, usually 8 seconds on each side. I spray when I'm done with furall (yellow stuff you can't find anymore) and off the little buggers go.


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## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

It's a personal preference, but I wear welding gloves when I disbud. I'm terrified of slipping with the iron and burning my fingers. Wearing the gloves helps me relax and do a better job. Remember that with bucks, most scurs occur toward the "front and center" of their crown. Burn it well, but be on the look-out for scurs. Bucks can sometimes stubbornly re-grown those scurs a few times over. I used to use a kid box, but found it more useful and less traumatic for the both of us if I'm not crushing their trachea by holding their head down in it. Therefore, I've begun simply squatting over the kid while it's in a lying down position and squeezing it between my knees. I hold their head to the ground and burn. I turn their head a little to either side depending upon which side I'm currently burning. I rely on natural light and don't do well with inside light, so I always burn during the day so I can really see my work. I like to finish off with a dab of tea tree oil over the burns. I don't know if it does much, but at the very least it helps the smell a bit! Also, I chew gum when I disbud so I don't have to taste the burning flesh/hair smell.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

What Linda said. Plus, roll the iron around. You can't just put it on straight and get a good burn. I go for 6 seconds and then take a look. I do the other horn bud and look at that one. Then I reburn, paying special attention to the side that doesn't have the copper color. Flip the horn bud off and burn that in a "plus sign" pattern.

Shave the hair around the horn buds. It helps to see them better and there's less smell.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Was posting at the same time as Adrienne. I like the kid box. My husband holds the muzzle down while I burn. Although I can see if you are doing it alone, I think Adrienne's holding technique would work better.


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## tlt0000 (Apr 28, 2009)

So it is best to roll the iron around bud and not hold it straight on? If the copper ring is not complete, do I roll some more or just put it on the spot that get the ring? I flip the bud off with a flip of the wrist, right? Kind of flip up on one of the edges? for the + sign do I use the edge of the iron and make the + over the center of the bud? The volume on my computer is shot so youtube is essentially useless except of the pictures.

Thanks all for your help.
tara


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## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

Once you think you've got your nice, even copper ring, then use the edge of the iron to sort of "scoop" at the edge of the center. It reminds me of the concept of popping the head off a dandelion or something of the sort. If it readily pops off, then you're done and you burn the little "x" with the edge of the iron. If it doesn't readily loosen and pop off, then try burning just a little more.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

My husband and I tag team it. He sits on the disbudding box and I hold the kid's head down on the chin rest. I usually do the clipping (clip hair on top of head) and he burns the main horn bud (we usually go one go, then other side, then another go, and see if it needs any more, usually two is all it takes with my iron, sometimes 3... yours may be different). I trim the caps off with hoof trimmers (really grosses out my husband every time. )..my friend uses a knife to do the same, and scoop it out. It's not hard to get off, especially when hot, so doesn't really need to be sharp or anything. Then he burns the middle with the side of the iron. If it is a buck, he hands me the iron and I use the side to burn the front and center "bump". I'm not sure if lamanchas have this, but alpines, minis, and ND's all have this ridge that extends down from the main part of the horn bud front and center to it. I think they actually make a piece for irons that is shaped that way for the buck kids, but I don't have it, so I just do a second burning and hope for the best.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

How long after disbudding will I know if I have done a good job or if scurs are going to come in? I did everything mentioned above except the plus sign thing...... I watched a few Youtube videos and went to my mentor's farm to learn how to do this procedure. My mentor doesn't do the scooping thing. I decided to do the scoop thing after watching the Youtube videos. 

I know that I totally botched the first one... my buckling. His poor little head is still healing as he is breaking open the healing bits at the edges with his butting and rubbing. 

I feel like I did a better job with the doelings. I made sure that there were the copper rings... but I do note that one girl still has lumps in the center. Is that normal? Or did I mess that up? I kinda figure that it's okay since my mentor doesn't even bother to scoop and she doesn't have scur issues. How quickly will I see regrowth of that bud if I flubbed it? And if I did mess it up, when do I redo it? After the giant circle has healed? Or just burn over the circle? 

I turned the iron to the side to cauterize the remaining horn bud(?) after the scoop. 

Thanks for any advice on this.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

fmg said:


> I trim the caps off with hoof trimmers (really grosses out my husband every time. )..my friend uses a knife to do the same, and scoop it out.


I am having such a hard time visualizing this, Nancy!  I pop off the whole center piece with the iron, but I can't visualize how you would do this with hoof trimmers. And yes, LaMancha bucks have the fluted part.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

And we couldn't figure out how to do it with the iron!


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

I've always used hoof trimers too, to either cut the protruding bit off down to the skull, or just cut the fur off. Just remember that there are many differences in horn buds - does are different than bucks, and Swiss breeds need to be disbudded sooner and more aggressively. And learn how to count slowly enough - one thousand one, one thousand two, etc., so you really are holding and rotating the iron long enough. I use a Rhinehart X50 and burn for 10 seconds which usually means I'm burning all the way down to the skull, but we still get scurs on occasion and I have a buckling that has a real horn on one side of his head! Not sure what happened there. Also, if you're disbudding outside, be aware that if it's windy you need to put your iron in a draft-free area or it will cool off too much to be as effective (learned that the hard way!). I do all the disbudding and tattooing by myself, putting each kid into the holding box, wrapping their ears under their jaws and holding them down firmly with my left hand, while I disbud with my right. After disbudding, I put Blue Kote on the burned area (it comes in a bottle with a dauber which is really easy to use). Then I tattoo them after disbudding while they're still captive in the box. DH usually finds somewhere else to go while I'm doing all this to his "babies"! LOL


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Are you using the tip of the nippers at an angle?


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

And if you have to use an extension cord, make sure it's a heavy one! I used too light of an extension cord last year.. thought I had done a good job, boy was I wrong. Had scurs all over the place.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

smithurmonds said:


> Are you using the tip of the nippers at an angle?


I just use them against the head and cut the bump flat. Not the tip, the side of the nippers.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I check heads every weekend, and reburn any raised areas that I can feel. When somebody complains about a scur, I have very little sympathy after they have been given instructions to check heads.

We disbud before there is much growth so there is nothing to cut off, we also burn a 3/4 inch circle, then burn inside the circle with the side of the iron.

It was getting pretty funny this last week between husband and I....this is the last kid we will ever disbud, this is the last tattoo of a goat (because we do dogs  this is the last goat feed, last alfalfa pellets, last does I will milk as of this morning, the last goat haul ended today...the list went on and on. I told him as of Tuesday morning I was turning over the keys to the barn to him, to keep clean, I have cleaned and leaf blown that barn millions of times, Monday morning will be my last time. Vicki


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Vicki...reading your posts lately leaves me with a mixture of feelings... I feel your happiness and relief... hopefulness about this new chapter of your life... excitement at being able to put this old part of your life to rest (this goatkeeping business is flippin' hard work if you do it right!)... also a little bittersweet sadness to see your words... saying goodbye to this part of your life. 

Anyway... i think I shall take pictures and post them here. I am wondering if what *I* am seeing as a raised area.... really is... should it be smooth, smooth, smooth? I disbudded my buckling at 4 days and the girls between 7 & 9 days. 

Anyway... out to milk. i am late already.... this 3x a day milking nonsense is rough. I am crazy.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

happy vagabonds said:


> Vicki...reading your posts lately leaves me with a mixture of feelings... I feel your happiness and relief... hopefulness about this new chapter of your life... excitement at being able to put this old part of your life to rest (this goatkeeping business is flippin' hard work if you do it right!)... also a little bittersweet sadness to see your words... saying goodbye to this part of your life.


Hear, hear.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The area of your burn should feel like a big knee scab on a child, it raises up, is bubbly feeling and then comes off in a big round circle. When you run your thumbs around it at not time do you feel little tiny sharp areas. If the whole area raises with a horn around the edge, you only disbudded the top of the horn (which happens a lot with the tips that simply are not big enough around).


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Oooohhh... I think I understand... scurs would be forming at the outside circle of the burn. If I got the copper rings (which I did before I scooped the middle out) that essentially cuts off the blood supply to the horn bud at the center and it (the center bit) will eventually 'die off' and drop off if there is any remnant remaining. Yes?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

happy vagabonds said:


> Oooohhh... I think I understand... scurs would be forming at the outside circle of the burn. If I got the copper rings (which I did before I scooped the middle out) that essentially cuts off the blood supply to the horn bud at the center and it (the center bit) will eventually 'die off' and drop off if there is any remnant remaining. Yes?


Yes, that is correct.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 3, 2013)

One other thing! We always shave the head area where we are going to burn. It makes for better locating of the "bump" and a lot less smell.

DonnaBelle


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Well shoot... then I am pretty sure that I messed up. *sigh* I feel a hard ring around Cookie's circle. 

I need to reburn then? She is 3 weeks old now... It's been healing for almost 2 weeks now. I disbudded her at 9 days... a mistake, I see now. I was waiting for Madi to be ready so I could do them both together. 

I talked to my mentor about this and she says that she doesn't reburn. She told me to wait a month and then band the scur if there will indeed be one. 

What is best?


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 3, 2013)

Well, I disbudded my Cookie at 9 days and have also got a "hard ring" around one of her burns. However, I think all will be fine. This is a normal occurence. So hang tight and don't do anything else to her. How old is your Cookie?? Mine is about 5 weeks and a bottle baby and doing great.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 3, 2013)

I wanted to add, each goat is different. A buckling may be ready at 4 days, a doeling at 9 days, you have to learn to "read the bud." A be sure to shave the head around the buds so you can see what you are doing. A lot less smell and you can be more exact in your placement of the iron.
At a goat seminar I went to an instructor told the story of disbudding about 50 goats all at the same time. All the goats developed "scurs" on the left side. HUMMMMM why was that? Because they let the iron heat up again between goats, but not between sides. So all the goats had scurs on the left side of the head, the side that was burned second.

donnabelle


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

She is just over 3 weeks old now. I just want to make sure I get this right, especially since I have decided to sell these two girls.

I did shave their heads before I disbudded. And I did disbud the buckling at 4 days. I just wanted to do the girls at the same time (a mistake) and I waited for Madi to get bigger before I put her through that.


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

I was reading Storey's Guide to Raising Dairy Goats and it said to hold the iron to the kids head for -15- seconds. I haven't heard anyone recommend that long a time here. I suppose it might depend on the iron and how hard you are pressing. I'm going to be doing my first disbudding either tomorrow or the day after. Any more recommendations on just how long to hold the iron on the bud? I know about the copper ring...maybe I should just go by that rather than only timing it?


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

The longer the better assuming you don't scramble the kid's brains. LOL. Most of the time, people don't hold it on long enough, I think. I doubt 15 seconds would be too long.

For what it's worth, I did some alpine doelings this year at 3 or 4 days old because that's what day my husband had off work, and both look like they won't have any scurs at all. They are now 8 weeks old, so not sure when scurs appear, but their scabs have coming off and heads are healing and I feel no bumps.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 3, 2013)

I have the same Storey's book. 15 seconds on first burn seems like a long time to me too.
You can always do 5 to 7 seconds, then check it and do a couple more seconds if you see any black spots on the copper ring.
DH has held it on long enough to see WHITE, which is bone. Now the goat was fine but I just about peed my pants. I thought for sure he killed the kid. But it was fine.
Disbudding is harder on the humans than the goats I think.

DonnaBelle


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

I burn for 15 seconds on each side and I spin/twist the iron as I'm burning and try and keep if flat all the way around. If the kid is on the small side I will only burn for 12 seconds, but most I go the full 15. Also I'd recommend using a timer that counts seconds cause if you're like me you'll count to 15 and only 4 seconds will have passed . I like using the goat box as I'm alone when disbudding. If it is an unusually large kid or you wait too long they will stand in the box and push their head and neck out forward and then it is very hard to keep them still enough to burn properly, but for most kids the box works great for me.

I don't bother with scooping the center out. It falls off after a week or two by itself and I've never heard of burning an x in the center before now. Not counting the first year (this is the 4th year for us) I have had no problems with any of the does. I make sure I disbud the does before they are 2 weeks old, 1 week is usually better.

I've had problems with the bucks. I've been attributing it to waiting too long to disbud them. The two I still have from last year were disbudded at 2 weeks and they have full horns growing back now, but they weren't visibaly noticable until a few months ago. This year I am doing all the bucks at 3 days old and I will be watching for scurs. I've never heard of burning the ridge forward off the horn, but I will look for it on the buckling I'll be disbudding day after tomorrow. That may be my problem with the bucks as well as waiting too long and not checking for scurs.

The scabs will come off after a week or two (maybe longer) and bleed a little which is normal so don't worry. I bought a buckling this year and I just had to burn some scurs off him today. They were just at the forward edge of the ring. He was born 2-24-13 so it took a little over two months for them to start to push up. I have a 90X with the goat tip. Good luck.


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

I forgot to mention the scurs on that buckling were first noticeable about a week ago and were starting to grow fairly fast. 

Also I've never seen white when burning for 15 seconds, only a nice copper ring and I haven't had any problems with the 25 or 30 goats I've done in the last 3 years as far as over burning is concerned. But different irons and different users may have different results.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Disbudding procedures

Having a disbudding box is a lifesaver as far as I am concerned. My box also has a metal head piece that keeps the kid’s head from going back into the box. I sit on the box, working over the kid while disbudding and tattooing. When I disbud, I also tattoo. That way every kid is positively identified.

When disbudding, I thoroughly examine the kid for any abnormalities before putting in the box. Since I raise Nubians, we can wait until they are 10-14 days old. Other breeds should be done sooner. Any kid that is weak is allowed a few more days before disbudding but usually at that age all the kids are eating and growing well. 

After putting the kid in the box, I take alcohol and spray it on a paper towel and clean the inside surface of the ears. While this is drying, I clip the hair around the horn bud. This makes the bud more visible and the smoke from the hair will burn your eyes making it difficult to see. I put on my leather gloves as I don’t want to burn myself. Grasping the ears with my left hand, I hold them under then chin while also holding the head. With the other hand, I use the Rhinehart 50 and count one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three – all the way to one thousand ten. Then I check to see if there is a copper ring all around the horn base, if not, I apply the iron again for a few seconds concentrating on the part without the copper color. Once the copper color is around the base of the horn bud, I use the tip of the iron to push the cap off. If there is bleeding, I touch it again with the iron in the area of bleeding. Then I repeat the procedure on the second horn bud but this time I go to one thousand twelve as the iron has lost a little of its heat. I do not use any ice, spray or anything on the burned horn area. It usually heals up within 2-3 weeks without any attention needed. 

Once, the disbudding is done, I put on some disposable rubber gloves. I have two sets of tattoo pliers – one has my herd ID for the right ear and the other has the individual tattoo. I use the recommended letter for the year and start with the letter and the numeral one for the first doe kid born that year. Bucks get a zero in their tattoo – for example D01, D02 etc. If there are more than 10 bucks, they also get D20, D30 etc. I do both ears with the appropriate tattoo and then I take a little green ink paste and apply it with my gloved hand. I rub the ink in their ears while counting to 20, holding the ear against the board on the top of the disbudding box. Rubbing it in, insures that the ink gets into the tattoo and also stops all bleeding on the ear. 

I seldom have scurs or tattoo failure.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Tim Pruitt... You rock!


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Tim, I like your idea of tattooing at the same time as dibudding, but I was about to ask how you get to the tail when the kids are in the box? Then I read the rest of your post. I guess not everyone has LaManchas.  You have it so easy.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

I read like crazy before disbudding and came up with six seconds maximum on each bud, three times each, rotating a little, going back and forth, from one bud to the other. Since I was new at it I put the iron in a tin can before each burn to retain heat and an icepack on the head. Out of eight kids I have ever done I have no scurs. All were does and wethers though, no bucks. These are Mini Manchas.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

The main point is to do it early. The longer you wait the larger the horn bed is which is where the horn material comes from. That is what the scurs are- regrowth from the edge of the horn bed that was not killed. The bud is almost immaterial if you kill the horn bed which is why the iron is not a solid thing but a hollow thing.... because the bud is going to die and hollow out anyway without blood flow from the surrounding tissue. This is where the figure 8 burn comes in. If you have a buckling that you have left too long and in Swiss breeds that can be as little as 3 days old if large and well developed then you need to burn the circle around the horn bud but also burn another circle offset to the front of the head overlapping the first one so the edge of the iron is in the middle of the bud. One burn at 10 counting seconds is better than re-doing because you are letting the tissues cool and may actually be doing less heat work which is what kills the tissue by doing 2 applications with a cool down in between. Whatever works is whatever works for you but you should not have any tissue that is snippable. You have waited far too long for the ring of the iron to cover the entire horn bed if you have raised tissue you can cut off. You should barely feel a raised lump and the whole job will be so much easier and so much more thorough. Love a smooth head and the minute you can tell you have new growth get after it and don't put it off. Do it again.

Do not overburn either~burning longer is not a good way to make up for burning too late. You are heating the entire head and particularly if there is actual horn developed as it holds heat longer than other types of tissue transmitting it into the head. I have seen vet jobs with the poor darlings eyes swollen shut from edema and have read there is also the potential of swelling in the brain that can lead to complications. The photos accompanying the article were horrific. So get your 10 seconds on a tiny head with tiny horn bed and it will be enough. Waiting too long is the main issue. 
Lee


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