# Goat started seizing and died.



## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

I am having a major issue. This morning, one of our nubian doelings who was 4-5 months old would not rise. We went out to check on her and she would not get up. We stood her up, her legs were wobbly and she flopped back down a few minutes later. I went to go milk and when I got back about an hour later, she was seizing and a few minutes later, she died. I took a fecal sample and ran it under the microscope with 3 slides (including a smear) and it come back with 2-3 stomach worms on the entire slide. She did not have cocci, had been cdt'd with follow up booster at the correct age. She would not eat the minerals we put out, and was growing slowly. She was being raised on a lambar and ate a little grain. She had been treated with bo-se, and treated for cocci every 3 weeks with albon, until I switched to corid and dosed her 2 weeks ago. 

We have been using Purina calf milk replacer, and I just read on a website (I don't beleive everything I read, that's why I am asking this) that it can cause copper poisoning. Has anyone else lambared with calf milk replacers? We have been using it with our babies for 4 months and all of them are growing great, shiny, and healthy. (all except this one...for those keeping up, the boer doe who died a few days ago was not raised on a lambar, but had the same symptoms of dry dull hair, but she had been sick since birth). The doe who died today had appeared active and healthy, but small and slow to grow.

Does copper deficiency cause seizures and death? If not, what can cause a goat who is fine one minute to be seizing and die the next minute? She had always been small and her coat was dull, not shiny. I mentioned to my mom about bolusing, but she is worried about overdosing them. If it is copper deficiency, what would be a quick method of getting them the copper they need? I read that copper boluses take a while to work. 

This is another learning curve for us. An expensive one. Besides copper deficiency, what other deficiencies do I need to look out for in this area of Texas? How can you tell if a goat has too much copper? (copper poisoning) 

Tara


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I used to use Purina Milk replacer along with goat milk, but never used it 100% after my first intial try. It slowed growth on the kids I tried it on 100% and left me with kids I could not breed the first year. It is why I only keep as many doelings as I want for replacements and sell the rest, just take the hit on milksales for the 12 to 18 weeks or so. Because the holding over of one doe or the death of kids from milk replacer doesn't make up for the money made in selling the milk.

I would take some poop to the vet and make sure you fecal sampling skills are right. When you said you were straining it, I had never heard of that, I let my sediment sink, you want everything that floats in your vial because the eggs float..I think you may be straining off eggs and have a worse problem than you think.

I don't necropsy just one kid dieing, but I do cut them open. Take her liver and send in a sample if you think the milk repacers copper did this, unless bolused she should not have a high amount of copper in the liver, really it should be low, unless the Purina is over the top with copper. What does her intestines look like...white heads all over and you had undiagonsed cocci problems. With the way you were using your sulfa, and with the directions you gave on fecaling, I think this is your answer. Also use the field necropsy to look for tapes they can fill the gut and bring on entero.

I wish we had a good test for entero.

Also make sure when you do feed milk replacers you are following the directions exactly, no way can you full feed replacers, like we do goat milk. The point with replacers is to keep the kids really hungry, this way they start eating solid food faster so the whey and soy that make up the replacer dosn't cause as much scouring in a 4 chambered tummy as they do when they are young and not cudding. Milk replacer should have to change it's name because it is not a replacement for milk, it is replacement for fluids...nutritionaly speaking it is not nor has it ever been milk.

Just like there are those who simply don't have the skills to bottle kids and shoud dam raise, there are those who on the otherhand do have the skills to use milkreplacers. If I was going to use milkreplacer I would talk to someone who has success with it. Do ask about the mortility rate, because although some large dairies use replacers they also loose a percentage of kids. No biggy with 50 to 100 kids, a huge deal with 10. Vicki


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Not just about this doeling: I wanted to add, there is an old saying about not looking for Zebra' when the horse is right in front of you.

Goat management is a great deal like this. Although we want to blame the death of a kid on something like the milk replacer or copper toxcisity, something genetic etc...in the end it is some benign thing like a snake bite, cocci or worms. Getting really basic management down is really key so that you are performing year after year the same thing over and over on your farm. The same feed, the same hay, the same vaccination protocoals the same schdules. It's change that is the enemy to goats because change causes stress. And when you choose to fly by the seat of your pants from how things are done by your mentor or forum, than you accept the consequences of what happens, and hopefully share your success or failures. It's how our forum grows. vicki


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Just a note on straining fecals....we use to strain all of them at the vet clinic. It kept the slide from getting cluttered up with plant material. Didn't seem to make a difference in accuracy as the eggs are way too tiny to get held up in a strainer. We also centrifuged them though, I don't know how much difference that would make?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It was just an idea since I had never heard of straining. Vicki


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

I looked at the bag of milk replacer and it doesn't list copper on it at all. 

I know I shouldn't believe every thing I read, but the straining was on fiascofarms directions for fecalling. I don't strain it finely, I only use one layer of cheese cloth, plus a second slide with a smear of the un-strained pooh. I heard it was to get out the larger chunks of plant materials, as mill-valley stated. Even if the straining strains out the eggs, the smear shouldn't, right? What would be the best procedure for fecalling effectively? Please help me, as I don't want to mess up. I did 3 slides of this goat to make sure. One was a smear from a fresh berry, the other 2 was from the strained solution. Under the microscope, they were all the same in comparison. I used the 450X, 600X, and 900X to look closely. 

I actually don't think she died from copper poisoning, but from deficiency, as she wasn't bolused. Does copper deficiency cause seizures and death? 

Tara


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2008)

rg1950 said:


> I actually don't think she died from copper poisoning, but from deficiency, as she wasn't bolused. Does copper deficiency cause seizures and death?
> Tara


Why are you focusing on the least probable cause of death? Like Vicki said, worms, cocci, improper feeding of milk replacer, etc. Polio?

Honestly, I think you really need to look at your management. I am betting you will find the answer to your animal losses.

Sara


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm thinking that this could be a deficiency of B-Vitamins and this kid may have died form Polio. I am not an advocate of milk replacers at all. If I don't have enough goat's milk, then I buy whole cow's milk.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

KJFarm said:


> I'm thinking that this could be a deficiency of B-Vitamins and this kid may have died form Polio. I am not an advocate of milk replacers at all. If I don't have enough goat's milk, then I buy whole cow's milk.


We don't use milk replacers either. We do the same as you do, no goats milk we use cows milk.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Tara, sorry you lost your little doeling :down

I use store bought whole cows milk too if I don't have goat milk for my bottle-babies.


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

We have always dam raised our babies, so we had no idea milk replacers were bad. We will be getting a hold of some stores and see if we can get discounted cows milk and switch. We still have 3 babies on milk replacer. Thanks for all your knowledge. I will look into the polio issue. I don't know anything about that. For the time being, we have plenty of goats milk so we will feed that to them. Cheaper than loosing a $300 doeling. Unfortunately learning sometimes costs lots of money! 

Tara


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes I am so bad about not offering up condolenses, I am always sorry when anyone looses a doe, I need to get better about that! Compassion is not my middle name, I always seems to focus first on the what, when, where and how.

It would make little sense for kids to die of copper defficency when we had adults biopsied who were so deffcient there wasn't a number low enough for them when tested...sure they had lots of problems but nothing that kills them.

I also only learned one way to fecal, even the times I went for refresher it was exactly the same way and we let all the material sink  not strain  I know Lisa (Unruli does it differently than I was taught also).

Polio is thiamin defficency and thiamin is B1, only made in the rumen of a healthy goat. The problem is anemia from worms and cocci, lethargy from worms and cocci because my tummy hurts even without diarrhea, lethargy from anemia, polio, not enough groceries all looks about the same until right before death. Especially in a recombant kid.

I can't raise out kids who are born in the later months of the year with my March kids, why my Berry doe from Tim is at Linda's with a baby her own age. She will come back after weaning and then still be on prevention, Linda's place is also alot more shady than mine so she eats more because she is not heat stressed.

In your dairy situation you might want to sell all your late spring summer kids quickly, it's what I used to do when we freshened the last group of 20 in May, selling bucks or does cheaply or putting them down so we didn't have summer kids who did poorly in our temps...and I was just to busy to give them the extra attention they needed. Vicki


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2008)

"""I used the 450X, 600X, and 900X to look closely. """" Tara


If you are looking for worms and cocci at these powers, your way over the top.......tooo much power.
......anything over about 400 X is about as useless as teats on a boar hog when it comes to running fecals.


Sorry you lost another one,

Whim


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Whim, I should have been more specific. I have a digital USB computer microscope (http://item.express.ebay.com/Toys-H...Q20ToysQQptdiZ1079QQddiZ1290QQcmdZExpressItem) and it has 5 powers. 100X 300X 450X 600X and 900X. I always go through each one from smallest to biggest. With the 100X, sometimes I have trouble finding what I need, so I go bigger and bigger to make sure of what I am looking at. If I see something suspicious, I switch it to the next power, and keep going. I only included the higher powers to emphasize that I looked close at the 3 slides I had.

Is there a way to tell if a goat has thiamin deficiency before things go bad?

Tara


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

NO except for the symptoms of polio
I think you need to have a vet dbl check you on your fecals because it really sounds like cocci problem and or worms. 
I also never use a replacer have only had bad results using it myself and have heard so many horror stories


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

As far as thiamin deficiency, what would the dose be if I didn't have thiamin, but did have multi-b complex with 12.5mg/ml of thiamine in it. How much/ how often? I will get with the vet and try and get some thiamine, but in the mean time what do I do? I will also get the vet to run some fecals for me on the same goats I test to make sure. Is goat polio contagious to other goats?

Tara


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

NO not contagious


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,4625.msg48092.html#msg48092

dosage for B Complex (thiamin)


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Don't know if I should start another thread for this one or not. On an earlier thread about Albon vs Corid, I had said I had read that co-rid causes a thiamin deficiency. The response I got when I posted that was that it causes a thiamine deficiency in the cocci, not the goat. I have read (and no I don't always believe what I read, that's why I am asking) on numerous websites that using co-rid will cause a deficiency. If this needs to be a new topic, please let me know and I will post it as so. I treated with co-rid late last week through the weekend. I had followed up with probios, but not vitamin B complex (or thiamine). 

Has anyone else heard that co-rid can cause thiamine deficiency in the goat?

Tara


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

yes I have heard that but believe it was because people were not using correct dosage on the corid. 
I have a general rule of thumb here, have always done it so right or wrong I continue 
any time I worm /cocci treat/antibiotics etc they are given BComplex at the same time and 2 or 3 days afterwards. I give 3 cc Fortified B Complex regardless of the size of goat. I also keep on have B1 just because


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Sondra,
we was weighing the goats on a scale. I weighed first, then again for correct calibration. Then I picked up the goat weighed again and subtracted. We dosed at 6.25cc/25lbs. We did not follow up. Do you give the 3cc every day you give the corid (5 days) then 2-3 days afterwards? I don't want to give to much. Thanks

Tara


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Just read my posting earlier. When I said we did not follow up, I meant we did not follow up with thiamine (multi-vitamin B complex w/thiamine). 

Tara


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

I have also heard that Corid (amprolium) causes thiamine difficiency...the main reason I usually use Albon. So far I haven't seen resistance in my kids so I will keep using Albon most likely. Corid works great in calves but should I ever use it in goats, I would definately supplement vitamin B, it can't really hurt anything as it's water-soluble.


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

I had always used albon (or it's generic) but am seeing resistance to it in a few of our goats, so I changed to the co-rid to see if it would work. Since we have lost 2 goats in the last 3 or 4 days (one was sick from birth) I am going to fecal a couple of our other goats and then get the vet to run a fecal on a sample from the same goats to make sure I am not missing anything (or, lord forbid, not fecalling correctly). Even the directions on goat keeping 101 http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,1805.0.html says to strain through cheese cloth. The only thing I am doing different from the directions is using sugar solution instead of epson salt, which may be where I am messing up, but even the link talks about using sugar, but making sure the gravity is correct. I will try making solution with epson salt (tried it before, but crystals would not dissolve, but salt was old-don't know if that matters) but sugar dissolved much better and easier. Maybe I need to get a pro to show me. The vet charges $10 a goat to run samples time 40 goats, that gets pretty expensive. I've got to get this perfected and with the help of the other people here who now alot more than I do, I will figure this out. 

Tara
PS: You live, you learn!!! That's my motto


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

At all the seminars we went to as a clinic, articles we read, the sugar solution is supposed to be the most accurate. We used a salt solution because it was much more convenient and less messy...but if you are mixing it right, the sugar solution shouldn't be the problem.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2008)

Just in case the sugar and salt thing is in question here.....you can probably get some Fecalsol from your Vet for about $15 a gallon.

Whim


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If someone wants to copy and paste the conversation about corrid being horrid on Nubian talk you can. Karin has a really good description of how Corid works on it...then she adds her opinion with I think...and blasts it for causing thiamin defficency.

Tara, you didn't see resistance to sulfa, you were not using it at the right dosage, you could likely use it just fine if you upped your dosages.

I think a kid has to have something wrong with it or it's the management of the herd (and I do think milk replacer is likely the key here) to have Corid cause thiamin defficency in a kid. I have conservatively used Corid for half of my goating experience and I simply have never had this problem. But like my last post to Nubian Talk, I do think it's used incorrectly, it isn't used as prevention only when diarrhea starts (not you Tara) this haphazard use simply doesn't work.

Anything put orally into a kid with a sluggish rumen can cause it to go into polio...how much Bvitamins are in the milk replacer, until they have a healthy rumen it is the only place they are getting B vitmains. Vicki


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

I have looked on valleyvet, qcsupply, jeffers, and hoegger for "thiamine" and nothing is coming up. What is the actual name of the injectable for thiamine? What do I look for to get thiamine (not vitamin B complex). Thanks

Tara


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2008)

Thiamine is a vet rx.

Sara


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Sara,
Is there anywhere to buy it online? I know valleyvet sales alot of prescription RX, as long as the vet faxes a copy (or calls it in, or I mail the original in), but thiamine is not listed on their website. I wasn't sure if it went by a different name. (for ex: the copper is listed as copasure, not copper) 

I will call the vet after 2 PM and see if they have any on hand. What is the average size of the container and about what does it cost? How long will one bottle last? Sorry to ask so many questions, but if the b complex won't work as good, I want to get what works. We have got to get our herd management perfected. 

Thanks,
Tara


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2008)

Nope. It's just called Thiamine HCI. You will most likely have to get it from your vet. I don't purchase prescriptions online as my vet has a large store front for any and all meds that I need both prescription and OTC.

I keep a 100mL bottle on hand. The cost is under $20.

Sara


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Sara, 
You are lucky to have a vet that keeps stuff on hand. I appreciate the info. If it's a common med, then my vet should have it on hand. Less than an hour and I will know. :biggrin Also, because my vet openly admits lack of knowledge of goats, what is the dosage for thiamine? 

Tara


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## Terry (Oct 27, 2007)

I got a prescription from my vet and ordered mine from PBS Animal Health for less than $10.00.
Terry


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

About 3 years ago we were in the same situation. Used milk replacer that year, didn't treat for cocci and we lost 4 of our 8 kids we chose to raise that year. Eye opener for us...and we also learned the hard way that milk replacer stinks. 

So we changed things and that was the beginning of our management turn around which we are still working on. Are your bottle kids in thier own area or are they with the rest of your herd? We keep our bottle kids in a area reserved for themselves away from our adults. We clean this area down well, use barn lime and de on the dirt and bleach solution in the shed. We try to limit the exposure to parasites as much as we can and give the kids a chance to grow without being overwhelmed by parasites. Using cows milk, and pasturised goat milk, and goat pellets, alfalfa pellets and quality hay in their own area. If their food is poor quality and they have to compete for it they won't grow as well. There is a schedule for coccidia control and wormers in 101. This might help you to get them the meds they need when they need it. 

We kept two does from that year, and both are stunted. One did poorly in her first lactation. I know she continued to have bouts of scouring past one year of age. So we conclude that she has been damaged by coccidia although she appears to be in o.k. health right now. She is Mrs. Liver (since we are sending it off this fall.)

I think the meds are very important when you are bottle raising.


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Vet does not have thiamine. Said they had B12, but that's not the same as B1. Would it work or not?

Jo, we have treated preventatively for cocci, and run fecal. I am going to get the vet to double check and make sure I am running them correctly just to make sure, though. I have heard and read alot of bad things about milk replacers, so we are switching them to natural goats milk. We should have done that all along, but didn't know any better. (You Live, You Learn)



Terry said:


> I got a prescription from my vet and ordered mine from PBS Animal Health for less than $10.00.
> Terry


I found it!! Thanks Terry. I had looked on 4 other online stores. Now I will see if the vet will write me the prescription.

Tara


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

B12 is not a substitute for thiamin. The dose I use on thiamin is 2-3 cc for kids and 5-8cc for adults, depending on size. I give two to three times a day for the first day or two, then once a day after the symptoms subside for a few more days. Kathie


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

The textbook dose of thiamine for polio is 10 mg/kg (100 lbs is about
44.5 kg, so 445 mg thiamine at 100 mg/ml is about 4.5 cc of straight


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Sondra,
just want to make sure I got it right. That would be 4.5cc/100lbs? Thanks, Tara


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Dosages for everything is in goatkeeping101 if you don't find something in there tell us and we will add it. Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Just adding my 2 cents worth to this post...been gone for 3 days and playing catch-up!


> Just a note on straining fecals....we use to strain all of them at the vet clinic.


We never strain a fecal in 3 different vet clincs and 12 yrs. of working. No time, and vets were comfortable with results.

Corid causing thiamine def.:
Here again...I was the one that posted how the corid worked. And I will still stay with my orginal post. Reason: UC Davis did a study on getting the correct doseages of amprolium ~*in goats*~for coccidia. Out of several hundred goats used in the study~1 *(ONE)* goat got polio AND THEY'VE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO DUPLICATE THE POLIO FROM CORID. Could have been feed, hay, ???whatever...but they couldn't get it duplicate again. So from this one goat...hysteria started and the blasted "myth" that Corid causes thiamine def. got started. I use corid, have used Corid for years and never bothered with the thiamine or complex shots afterward...NOTE: did use it one time and realized how time consuming giving all those babies shots was and stopped doing it. Haven't lost a single kid to Thiamine def., yet.
JMO,
Kaye


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Kaye, I appreciate the info on corid not causing polio. I have never used corid til the last few weeks and it helps to hear how others have used it with no problems and no shots to give afterwards. That's one less thing I have to worry about. :biggrin
I hate giving shots, but it's a necessary evil for some things (cdt, bo-se, antibiotics, etc). I don't want to give more (shots)than absolutely necessary. 

Tara


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