# Nice Full Udder - Is this a good thing with 15 days to go?



## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

This is my 3rd year of kidding and I have so much to learn. This year my doe is very full. I haven't ever had kids with her before so I'm not sure what to expect. My question is, do i need to worry about her getting too full prior to kids coming and should i do anything to prevent possible problems or damage to her udder? Also, she started passing clear mucus yesterday. She isn't due until the 24th of this month though. I have a call in to her previous mommy who is full of knowledge and will probably remember how she did last year but with it being the beginning of kidding season she has probably got her hands full and it may be a few days before we have time to catch each other on the phone. Phone tag is loads of fun. The responce time and great suggestions are fast and always so wonderful to read. Thanks a bunch to all in advance for the great suggestions that I'm sure i will get. Have a lovely weekend.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Comfortably full is normal...tight and shiny and especially any colostrum leaking from the orifices and yes milk her some just to take off the pressure. I always relieve my does in early stages of labor, or if I know they are going to kid tommorrow, it's so much more comfortable kidding out with a semi empty udder than laying on a big ole udder. Vicki


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

That is good to hear. I've never milked a doe prior to kidding but that does make more since so they are comfortable. I just assumed that they wouldn't want to be milked prior to kidding. My thought is that it would cause the doe the release of oxtosin and make for a harder labor. But that's just me thinking what the doc told us when we were two weeks over on my first son. This may be TMI but they told me that the stimulation can induce labor but could cause for harder contractions. Is that the same for goats? I'm sure all is going as normal and it may just be me getting the preperation jitters, but i am a big what iffer. What if she does get to the point of tight and shiney and its too soon? What is your rule of thumb to go ahead with a dose of pressure reducing on her? Also, as i mentioned earlier about the mucus. All of my other does that i ever kidded with past mucus the week of. Can this occur eirlier and still be ok? 
Thanks


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Isn't hard labor a good thing? 

If they are uncomfortably full, why keep a strain on the attachments, and why worry about milk leaking and opening the orifice when she lays down on that too full of udder with that huge body 

The older the doe is the more she will have signs of impending birth. Her vuvla gets saggy and baggier quicker, embarassingly so when aged...the mucous plug is lost earlier because the cervix has opened many times before, so of course more leakage can occure. Udders have already been stretched so it appears to get bigger faster etc...


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

By all means pre-milk her before the weight of the udder causes a blown suspensory ligament. I had an experience when I was very new to goats and I did not pre-milk this doe. Her medial support tore loose and now I always pre-milk heavy producers. Just freeze that colostrum in a bag for her kids. You may have to milk her more than once.


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

The word from the experience is usually the best way to go. Thanks so much for the great suggestions. You may have given my girls confort and they will greatly appreciate it. I would have done it the last couple years if i only knew. I always felt sorry because i would think of how it was after my pregnancy. And a blown suspensory ligament, wow! That would be horrible. Thanks again.


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

Update! with 8 days to go with all the signs she finally delivered this morning. Quads explains it all. They are my first. Scary but yet very exciting. Its amazing how all those kids can be in one momma. She hid them well.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

And how is everyone doing? Are momma and the kids fine?

Congrats!


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

All is going wonderful. Still hanging on to the placenta but i started her on banamine, a dose of lute, and oxi every couple hours. Shes doing great other then that. THe kiddos are all doing good as well. Good size babies for thinking i would probably only get 1 or 2 tops. Just goes to show you never know what to expect. But the signs are key. Lesson learned. Thanks so much for asking.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Why are you doing Banamine? Or really why any RX in a normal delivery?
Just because you have meds does not mean you need to use them.
She will clean out on her own more than likely. I cannot imagine medicating like that. Please reconsider this -what on earth does she need every couple of hours ????


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

It’s always hard to say when you’re not with the situation or able to observe as well. But thank you bunches for the input. It’s greatly appreciated.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Wow that's a sweet brush off if I ever got one! 
Great style. I asked why you felt like you need to medicate a doe like this?
That is a legitimate question. Do you have a reason? Of course it's hard to say why without being there which is why I asked. 
Lee


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

She kidded around 5am and sHe had a rough go about and its almost like she is so drained of energy that she needs alittle umf with the oxitocin. Im sure it may be jumping the gun a bit with the meds. THe lute is to get her uterus to let lose of that placenta and the bantamine is to take the edge off. I just dont want to wait until tomorrow and thank, "darn it i wish i would have done it sooner". I know everone has different ways and techniques and thats what the wonderful thing is about a forum. You can research others experiances and work off of them. And yes it was a legitimate question but im not very good at debating. It never works in my favor.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Thank you for your answer.
It was not for debating purposes. For information which is like you said why people come here.
Thanks!


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

Oh, I see. Sorry about that. I just didn't use the meds because i had them. I actually made a special trip this evening to pick them up for this reason. I will keep posted on how everything comes out.


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## Holly Govero (Mar 26, 2009)

OH!! I see you got quads. Thank god!! I didnt have that!!!

Are you bottlefeeding some of them?????


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Congrats on the quads. Hope the doe regains some energy soon.


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks for the congrats. Momma is definitely my concern right now. I wish she would pass the placenta. What is the window where i should consider getting a vet to the farm because of a retained placenta? She has a large amount hanging


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's not retained. Retained is when a placenta is in the uterus, behind the cervix. Lots of milking, oxytocin 1/4cc every several hours. Stand behind the doe and bearhug her infront of her fore udder. This massages the fundus (shrinking uterus) which will also help it let go. Milking and massage let the doe bring down her natural oxytocin. A vet is going to do no more than just ease the placenta out of the uterus, or like my vet if the cervic is open go in and release the cyclons that hold it in place (think suction cups like on an occtopus) or cuts it off flush with the vagina and charges you $35. It's going to sink until it releases, because it's out in the oxygen. It is not an emergency unless she starts running a fever.

We need to have a lutelyse and occytocin conversation on how each works, there are several on the forum using them interchangeably and incorrectly...lutelyse has nothing at all to do with releasing a placenta.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's not retained. Retained is when a placenta is in the uterus, behind the cervix. Lots of milking, oxytocin 1/4cc every several hours. Stand behind the doe and bearhug her infront of her fore udder. This massages the fundus (shrinking uterus) which will also help it let go. Milking and massage let the doe bring down her natural oxytocin. A vet is going to do no more than just ease the placenta out of the uterus, or like my vet if the cervic is open go in and release the cyclons that hold it in place (think suction cups like on an occtopus) or cuts it off flush with the vagina and charges you $35. It's going to sink until it releases, because it's out in the oxygen. It is not an emergency unless she starts running a fever.

We need to have a lutelyse and occytocin conversation on how each works, there are several on the forum using them interchangeably and incorrectly...lutelyse has nothing at all to do with releasing a placenta.


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## Holly Govero (Mar 26, 2009)

Crystal, I have ocytocin here. You are down the road from me. If you need a help with goats. Only business strictly, I will be happy to give you the stuff you need for ur doe..


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

My concern with your original post is that effects of banamine include relaxing smooth muscle.
This is the opposite of trying to get contractions late in a birthing to expel a placenta so working against the original aim. Plus casual use of the drug during birthing is working the liver overtime when it is detoxing the massive hormonal flush from parturition. So you were giving something to cause contractions- oxy- and something to stop them- banamine. That is like taking a sleeping pill with a cup of coffee.

If your placenta is out then the weight of it will do the work. And milking is the best route to oxytocin.
Working the udder and making sure she is milked out immediately after active birthing ceases will release oxytocin which has effect in the body within seconds whereas an injection must find the route and be delivered.


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

That was a concern to me about the banamine and oxytocin. I think Vicki had a wonderful point that we should get a 101 lesson about oxitocin, lute, and such. I would love to learn and i believe others will benefit allot as well. I'm just glad i have wonderful helpers getting me through this. What placenta was there dropped, but there is some left in her that would not let loose yet (stinks). Her cervix is almost closed. She is strong as an ox and doing good otherwise. I'm just worried about infection and then her going down hill at a fast rate. Temp is good and i am milking allot with the oxitocin. I have had lots of help but the suggestions here are still great. Babies are happy and healthy at this point. I think we are going to get through it its just gonna take a lot of work and monitoring. Thanks buckrun i wont stop working that udder. You can private message me if you would like.


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

Holly Govero said:


> Crystal, I have ocytocin here. You are down the road from me. If you need a help with goats. Only business strictly, I will be happy to give you the stuff you need for ur doe..


 No thanks! Im not in it for business. Thanks though


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

Still horribley stinky discharge. Does anyone know how long it could take for the body to actually absorb the retained placenta or when is it safe to say all is gone from the body? Just walking on egg shells at this point knowing it could take a turn for the worst at any given part of the day. She is eating and drinking. temp is 102.9


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## Holly Govero (Mar 26, 2009)

You need to get oxyticon and do that so it can flush it out. Hopefully it is not infected. There is a thread about her goat's discharge "was" stinky.. But it wasnt resulted that way. I found the thread what Vicki said.. I forgot to add I would give her antibotic as naxcel or nuflor.. 

Good Luck.. PM vicki if u need to know ASAP..


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## Holly Govero (Mar 26, 2009)

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,17844.0.html

There is the thread.. What vicki was saying..


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

If a doe has retained her placenta and her discharge is stinky she needs to be opened and flushed. She will wind up getting a uterine infection, of which you will never really know as goats wall that off nicely, until breeding season when "Why won't that doe settle". 
How do I know? Lindsey's first doe never took and never took. Took her to the vet, the doe is 9 mind you, and get told she has a utrine infection. WELL, at that time we were extreme newbies with no money and left the with an infected uterus. We found out later that the person who breed her last had a poor kidding, retained placenta and never flushed her. 
So do what you need to do to clean out that uterus or you will have problems.
Tam


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

What I would like to know is the length of time oxitocin can be given. Should i continue giving it or should i try and stimulate for natural oxitocin at this point or continue both. The cervix was almost closed as of 10am yesterday morning. Isn't the oxitocin to get her to contract and help expel it from the cervix. If the cervix is closed how does dosing her with oxitocin going to help at this point? I will continue if that will help get some out and won't cause harm to the doe. She is doing really good, but when she coughs she squirts pretty good amount and it smells awful. For the most part of what I could feel was the umbilical cord attachment so there is definitely some retained in there.


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## Holly Govero (Mar 26, 2009)

You need to give her oxycotin and it will flush it out.. I know how do the uterus flush. But the cervix have to be open.. The ocycotin will open the cervix and will flush it out.. Like Vicki posted to give 1/4 to 1/2 every 1 or 2 hours (dont remember every what hours)..


I still can drop the oxycotin and naxcel off at the store and you pick it up. I dont mind do that for your doe's sake..


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

I would like to flush her but will it benefit her if the cervix is already closed. I will research now to get a propper grocery list together for a good flush. Any ideas? I can head to the vets now to get what i need. If there is a chance you feel comfortable walking me through it over the phone i would really appreciate it. Please PM me and i will get contact or give mine. I have others helping here but none of us have had to do a flush before or have had a retained placenta for that matter. Its always best to hear from someone that has success with it.
Thank you


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

*


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

???? I thought this was good info, very helpful, it gives me a basic knowledge of what to do with a doe that wont pass a placenta if i get it this situation I didnt see anyone saying anything hurtful or talking bad about anyone else.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Nicole, I do believe there is a past with Holly and Crystal, yet as responsible adults they will get along nicely on the forum . Everyone is entitled to help here, if Crystal doesn't want to take Holly up on her offer to help that is between the two of them and needs to stay personal. We will leave it at that.

Tam


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Tammy is correct. You need to flush.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I got ahold of Cyrstal on the phone. If a doe has placenta hanging than it's not retained, she does have some stuck in the cervix closing down, so yes it's going to stink to high heaven for awhile. But it's just rotting meat and putting it in your ear won't give you an ear infection  She was also giving way too much occytocin and way to often. By giving too much occytocin the doe has slamming contractions that really aren't helping. She doesn't have a fever and isn't ill, she is milking well, taking care of her kids and eating and drinking...those aren't symptoms of a uterine infection. With a uterine infection you have an ill doe who is not milking and has a temp...even with the banamine you would still have a temp.

She is going to get naxcel, but honestly I wouldn't even be using it myself, although I would have gotten the placenta piece out of the cervix and flushed it before it closed down this much. She is going to try to flush the doe with the tetracycline that she has, but with the cervix likely plugged with this peice of rotten placenta that maybe an act of futility and flushing the vagina does no good 

So that's the only update I know, doesn't sound as if the doe is under as much stress as Cyrstal is  

A few reminders....if we now want to get the cervix back open we would have to use lutelyse, occytocin gives us contractions. Does have the ability to absorb things like this without a problem, my vet would have tried to get the placenta out, if it was tight she would have cut it off at the vagina and left it. Does can absorb kids, so a piece of placenta isn't that big of deal. Always take temps and try to get your drug dosages from reliable places. Give all over the counter antibiotics subq...10cc of tetracycline in the muscle is PAINFUL!!! V


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks Vicki and Caprine Beings, i couldn't have said it better myself. Belle has had her first flush and all went well. We were able to get the tube into the cervix so that's a plus. I gave her 1 cc of banamine with the .25 cc of oxitocin twenty minutes prior to milking then flush followed. Then i gave some good rubbing bear hugs. She passed allot of thick red smelly ooze but no chunks. Thanks everyone for all the wonderful suggestions. I will keep ya posted on how Belle is doing.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

You don't want to give banamine before she drops her placenta at any rate.....it is contraindicated. You don't cause contractions by giving Oxy and then stop them with a muscle relaxer.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Well...I disagree...relaxing smooth muscles will let them relax the cervix and uterus after contractions to let material come out, it also takes the edge off, it also stops inflammation which causes scar tissue. Oxytoccin doesn't just cause contractions, it shrinks the uterus, it brings her into milk, it lets down milk and it releases the suction cups from the uterine wall. And the more relaxed the doe is during all this the better. 

If your having cramps, which is exactly what is happening here, a doe trying to pass material out of a closed cervic, by taking a muscle relaxer or pain pill, it relaxes your cervix and allows you to pass the clots or blood easier. Your utuerus is still doing it's job with your hormones to slough the cells off your uterus, but the pain pill/muscle relacer lets you relax and do it with less pain.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Hmm, interesting theory. My vet says just the opposite.....I guess whatever works for you. It still makes more sense to me to wait, but I only use banamine in the case of a really awful delivery -- and even then I generally don't have placentas hanging for more than a few hours at most. ;-)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Likely because my vet is a horse vet and these are horse drugs


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

Good Morning! Stress level is getting better for me now that i have an official routine and I'm not just doing to do. Belle is holding nice temp at 102.8/.9. Drinking a good amount of water and eating alfalfa very well, but doesn't want much to do with her grain unless she is in the milk stand. Shes loving the apples though. I gave her .25 cc oxytocin, 1 cc banimine, and her dose of naxel 20 minutes prior to milking as well as some probiatics. Her milk is coming down allot better today, with all the rubbing and peppermint messaging. She seems to be much more relaxed and comfortable today. She passed a good amount of major stinky ooze after milking but seems as happy as she could be for what she is having to deal with. She will get her flush here in a few hours, when my wonderful helpers arrive. I'm hoping to get pics posted of the little ones today. Its always nice to see what all the fuss is about. I love seeing everyones pictures too by the way. Thanks guys!


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Likely because my vet is a horse vet and these are horse drugs


Isn't it funny that even vets can't agree on things? Mine is an equine surgeon....


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Maybe if they both had ever seen goats in vet school they would agree :rofl I was lucky in some senses of the word because Merry vetted for two big herds out here before I came along....and then you can only imgaine what it is like to be my vet! :crazy


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

Update on Belle. She is doing great today. Yesterday was the last flushing i hope. There is no smell today just white mucous discharge. Which is weird and brings up my question for today. Is whitish clear discharge normal. My gals in the past have always had the reddish icky for about a week then tapered off. This is not the norm that i am use to. No smell though and that makes me feel much better for her, thinking that the rotten pieces may have pasted. During the flush yesterday i didn't feel anymore liver like pieces coming out of the cervix and the flush was coming back out clear with little color of pink.


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## burnettrracer (Jan 20, 2011)

Belle and all four babies are doing great. Belle passed a big blob (about a cup full) of white slime today but there was no smell. Funny looking back at my posts, if someone told me i would one day be smelling the stuff that passed from my goats i would have told that person they were crazy. I just want to thank you for the emails, phone calls and helpful posts. I was so scared i was going to lose Belle and now it seems like a bad dream. I would say i am so glad I've got a set of quads under my belt but I'm not. It was a very scary experience and would perfer not to ever go through that again. I'm sure it was just a fluke and many quads go normal but to be honest i am perfectly content with 2 healthy kiddos. Thanks to all. Hope everyone has a great kidding season.


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