# parrot mouth doeling just born...



## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

what do i do? can they survive....


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

If it's not bad they can survive, if they can nurse. Some can nurse but then can't really eat real food. Some even grow out of it. So I have heard.


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

I have had one born in my 25 year of goating. Was a buck so he went to the BBQ pit with the rest of the bucks as soon as he was old enough. He never had a problem nursing and I left him on his dam. He showed no signs of growing out of it but then I never keep males past 8 weeks.


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

I'll go take a pic of it to post to see if it is bad...looks like it is to me, but I haven't seen parrot mouth, except on my Macaw!


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

Posted from my phone originally, then came in to do a search and it seems the general concensus in search is to cull I won't be keeping her, she would probably be sold as meat kid, if she could grow enough....


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Cull, to what end would you want to keep her? Would you really sell her for meat or butcher her yourself? Likely not in the end. She will then get bred, I think I have only seen this happen 1,000 times on forums  the keeping of culls that is that turn out to be pets that have a myriad of problems as adults. Vicki


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

Ok I will, but what should I tell Chad to do...shoot the thing....what????

here are the pics of the mouth


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

Should I post in off topic...for best method?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I drown stuff like this at birth, or slit jugular and set it aside to become dogfood if I know I will have time once the rest has been delivered and I have milked the doe and fed the kids. Drowning is a very chick thing to do, I always keep two 5 gallon buckets beside my barn, the kid goes into one, head first and you put a full bucket on top. You can still butcher them if you choose to drown them. The idea I am going to get my 22 rifle and press it against the kid to hold it still and shoot it isn't happening, and I certainly am not going to hold it with one hand or foot to keep it still and shoot it with my handgun. 

Make sure and make a notation on his siblings paperwork, dam and sire that they threw this. You won't remember over time. Vicki


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

She is only doe I have thats Nubian and was bred to a Buck I know longer have...her half siblings a buck and doe out of a lamancha are fine.
I will tell Chad your method suggestions...I sure can't...to soft yet..I can carry them dead to the back to feed the fox...but can't kill them myslef yet...working on this


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I could never drown one. I've had to bash things in the head before, which was hard, but could never drown them.


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## Dacaree (Jan 31, 2009)

Sarah, I know exactly how you feel. My problem is all the males in my house are softer than me!!! I would have to do it because they wouldn't be able to handle it. :/


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well I could slit the throat remember you are really doing this kid a favor. As a responsible goat breeder we have to do these things or not raise goats. Sorry but a fact of life.


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

We had our first parrot mouth this past year. A doeling. The dam is bred to the other buck this year and won't be rebred to the first buck again.
She nursed just fine. Grew great, until her mother dried up. We learned our lesson. Ship them before they are weaned! That doeling could not glean much if anything from the pasture and could not eat grain. We got a whopping $20 at the sale barn (the majority go direct to the slaughterhouse in that town).
As long as they can nurse, we'll raise and ship them for slaughter. If it happens again, though, they'll go before they are weaned and start losing condition!


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

I am with Vicki, anything I can do to them (drowning, quick death of some sort) will be better than what they will endure on their journey as culls or eventually in a slaughterhouse. I'd rather keep the meat. I didn't think of the bucket method, seems like it would be less personal that way. I bet it's easier to do when it's a buckling !


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

We had this born last year, also a Nubian. He was the largest of the kids (quads) and nursed really well. At 3 months, he was butchered and fed our family for quite a while. His parents were both sold to different farms w/the new owners made aware, so that breeding wont be repeated.

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

We had one buckling a few years ago. I kept him alive to raise for meat, but he must have had some internal problems, too because he succumbed to what looked like respiritory problems when wildfires to the west of us caused the air quality to go down. I figure he had either heart or lung deformities as well as the parrot mouth. I don't know if I could drown a newborn unless it had something like it's intestines on the outside, but any parrot mouth here would definitely be going in my freezer by weaning time. My friend kills them, I help butcher.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Is parrot mouth more common in nubians than other breeds?


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## Nupine (Nov 2, 2007)

Uhhhh.......hope that never happens here. About the drowning thing. Am I not understanding it right or is that extremely painful? I have heard for a human it is extremely painful. Do you do it before they take the first breath? I am sort of the outcast here with my sensitiveness. I have only killed a suffering chicken twice, and I was like shaking half to death. lol Drowning just doesn't seem like anything I could do. If a parrot mouth was born here, I would probably take the kid, buck or doe, and pay the $25 or whatever to have the vet put it to sleep. [hiding under chair now]
Ashlyn


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Don't worry, I'm a wimp too. I can't even disbud my own babies. I killed a chicken once that the dog had injured and I killed a rabbit that the cat had injured. Also have shot a squirrel and a deer. Everyone was shocked I could shoot a deer ha!

I can get right in there, in the blood and guts and butcher one. But have a hard time with the killing, especially a baby or something I have raised.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ashlyn I was just like you when I was new. But when you have alot of goats born, especially back in the day when 90% of your bucklings weren't going to sell for even meat, you have to do something. Drowning was what I could do, I was never good at slinging them into a post as my husband did, I think I eased up at the end....now that was inhumane. I will slit the jugular also since I keep a scalpel right there in my kidding kit. And of course when new you dry them off, then look them over and decide if you are going to keep them...I can spot stuff like this a mile away now, so yes they barely are taking a breath when I put them down.

Of course Nubians have bite faults, everyone breeding nubians has this kind of stuff now and then, don't let anyone tell you they don't. I don't see near the extra teats in Nubians as seen in our LaMancha's or crosses of them. Look at the Nubians of old, it's in our genes, that awful mouth. I expect some teeth on my does when they are older, especially some of the really old lines, but not as kids, and never an overbite like this. It makes the whole group of kids less saleable when you have something like this at your farm in with them. If you didn't know me and were coming to purchase kids (and this has happened to me many times when visiting herds with friends and potential buyers) you see an old buck who is skeletally thin living (if you can call it living when he can't get up) but he is living with the does because he needs the company....or a kid the seller is so proud they saved her from cocci and there are better looking goats in national geographic...or old does who walk on their knees, or parrot mouth and extra teated kids (because we can't put them down) problem is they are now 10. Would you really buy? Now being honest and saying yes, we have had extra teats, yes we have bite faults now and then, yes I have some friends who will come and get a kid who I know I don't want to register yet will make a serviceable doe for their herd (but we aren't talking genetic faults here), that is ethical. Everyone has to make these decisions for their herd as they go. Vicki


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

That was the hardest thing I have EVER done...and I didn't actually do it...but I keep telling my self it was for her own good.... I think if they had just come out and I saw that and had buckets ready maybe I could drown, but once they cry....which she did a few times and momma has been crying up a storm...I know she is just calling an unruly baby that won't come, not crying because she is sad or knows what happened, but I just feel sooooo bad for both more so for mom! I know don't put human emotion into animals, but its hard not to....I just give her some loving and move on. This is a doe that was afraid of people, but like LeAnne told me she has warmed up since I was there with her when she kidded....


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I bet she'll be even better with you milking her...she'll see you as the baby. Give it about 3 days and she won't be crying any more.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> The idea I am going to get my 22 rifle and press it against the kid to hold it still and shoot it isn't happening, and I certainly am not going to hold it with one hand or foot to keep it still and shoot it with my handgun.


Why not? That's exactly how I handle it. The gun certainly doesn't need to be against their head to be effective. I take the right outside, lay them on a feed sack and shoot them in the head with my 22 rifle. Death is instant.

I don't think I could deal with drowning them....I want it over a lot faster. It's hard, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

This picture is big and I don't have time to resize it, but Snowbird had a deformed buckling last year -- this was an AI breeding to Willow Run Atlas Ransom  
http://soldiermountainalpines.com/buckmouth.jpg
The mouth was only part of his problems. Really a bummer, but breed enough goats and you're going to get something wrong once in a while.

Tracy


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

Chad used the 22 on her. We have a Fox family at the very back of our property and any time we have something die (mainly stupid chickens in the hay) we take it back to them, so we wrapped her in a towel and drove her to the very back in the gator and Chad did...I had to look away and close my ears, but I have to get used to this...we bought a female rabbit so we can breed rabbit babies to supplement our dog food and would like to supplement with roosters we hatch and bucklings....so I have to get used to it


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I guess everyone has their own way of putting them down. My friend drowned a deformed kid once and said it was harder for her to do it that way than with her 22. I didn't watch the drowning, but I did watch the dressing out. I don't know if it was the drowning or just that the kid was newborn, but the meat had a weird texture when I cooked it. I did watch her do one of my older wethers by slitting the throat. It was hard to watch, but like you said, we need to get used to it. The meat is good and it really makes no sense for me to raise bucklings to weaning, sell them to the meat buyer and then go by meat at the supermarket. I have to put at least one or two in my freezer.


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

I hope that we do not have anything like this happen to us as I am a semi-softy, or maybe I should call is fur-softy. Pigs chickens turkeys not a problem butchering from start to finish. But the stuff with fur gives me issues hubby has to botcher our meat rabbits ( he does not like doing it but OH well) but I would be worried about the goats as even though he was againist us getting them in the begining he has turned into the goat lover guy. At first he was a closet goat lover but I caught him out pretty quick. But I think if it was a medical reason or suffering, either one of us could do it. I just hope I do not have to test this theory out any time too soon


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## Patti (Dec 29, 2009)

Oh boy, I am in for a lot of trouble if my girls have any deformed babies. I can't kill anything (aside from creepy bugs, and then usually I scream for hubby). We couldn't even process our own chickens - had to take them in and have done.

I am also a sucker for the "misfits". I raised 3 orphan boston terrier pups, only 2 survived but the amount of medical care invested in them when they were puppies was what some people would call ridiculous. My daughter's wethers from 2 years ago had multiple vet visits, friends kept asking me why spend the money on a terminal animal? The same with my son's wether from last year - we actually took him into the vet to have staples when he got into a dog house after the roof caved in on him and a nail ripped his area where his nut sack was at. What am I going to do?


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

I understand about the killing part. I absolutely hate killing anything. I have killed and butchered a rabbit before. I hated the killing part, the cleaning was fine and easy. Course we had nothing in the house to eat, and I went outside and pulled one out of the cage and there ya go...dinner.

I want goat meat. I like goat meat. But I chicken out, and the meat market charges to much in my opinion to do it for you. But my BIL says if I will raise them to butchering size, he will butcher them! All right!!!

But I will tell you something that is just as sad. You start out in goats....sale barn crap. You don't have any money to buy decent goats with. Your daughter is in 4-H, and she has been going to goat shows. You have a couple of friends who have some old does their daughters have been showing, and you get a chance to "pay them out" you don't know what CAE is. Until you buy the goat, show it a couple times, and it does great. It has it's third freshening with you, and the goat has a cement hard udder, and no milk. It goes down hill from there. Now you have nothing, because you are too new, and you don't know about heat treating....oh wait, the udder is so hard that by the time it softens, the doe isn't giving enough to raise anything, and it's the only doe you have to raise babies with. So you have to get rid of that one.

Your 4-H daughter keeps looking at does at shows that are for sale. She's trying to learn what are the good things to look for. She spies this beautiful Nubian doe. These breeders live 4 hours away. They've been coming to a lot of shows and you've seen the there. You think everything is hunky Dorey. You don't know squat about what to look for in goats. so you talk to these people, and wow, they let you make payments on the doe. She's beautiful.....you go back a year later, and buy her full sister from a different breeding. You love these does. You breed the older one, she has a very nice udder, everything is great. then you get to really show a nice doe, she places at the back of the class. Okay what's wrong with her.? She has this huge roman nose, some are telling you (especially the breeder) that she comes from old blood lines, and that's why she has such a prominent roman nose. go to another show. She places last in a class of about 17? Okay what's wrong with this doe???? The judge a very nice lady, pulls your daughter aside after the show, and tells her "honey your doe is beautiful. She is really a first placer, but she will never place first because she has a parrot mouth."

Now you've invested all your time and money into this doe and her sister.....guess what??? Same breeding repeated a second time....you got it...the sister has parrot mouth too. It is just something that was never pointed out to us, we didint' know that was a deformity. We thought they were supposed to be like that with their "old blood lines".

So now your daughter is heart broke. She is in love with these two does, and they are worthless. The judge told her not to breed them because it was an inheritable trait.

So which is worse??? to eat them? get it over quickly? or let some unsuspecting child put all the effort in raising and trying to show only to find out they have spent their money on crap? Money they didn't have to spend in the first place? And you think that the reason you got such a "good deal" is because the breeder knew what was wrong with them from the beginning. Makes you feel really screwed over. 

I think I will eat them if they will grow...if not, they will be dead.

I don't mean to sound ugly, but this happened to us years ago when Brat was in 4-H. I always felt like the breeder knew it. And Brat was so proud of her does. They were lovely, except for the mouth. But it was a lesson learned, and now we know. And we have had it happen once or twice. We don't repeat those breeding's. Oh, and yes it does occur in other breeds. I had a friend give me a beautiful Alpine once...she had a parrot mouth. We ate her.

Just my 2 cents.

Sheryl


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## Nupine (Nov 2, 2007)

I am a sucker for misfits too Patti. I can't remember how many wild animals I have tried to save. Once a friend and I [she lived in part of our house as a tenant with her mom] rescued 6 baby birds who had fallen from a tree in our horse pasture. We fed them, and although all died, one lived for about 4 days. I actually did rescue a cardinal that the cat attacked, and it lived and I set it free. But I have stupidly kept a few chicks I have hatched that had one thing or another wrong with it. Most have died. I have killed a couple chickens though, with a shovel, who were really suffering. I think that would be my problem with a deformed goat, trying to nurture it because it is a misfit. 
Ashlyn


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Sheryl,
I don't think that you sounded ugly. That whole story just makes me really angry. I can't imagine that the breeder didn't know what was up with those does, especially since she was showing her goats so much. I _suppose_ it's possible, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how. :mad


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

Well, I think the breeder knew, which is sad. About a year later, we never saw her again. I can't even remember her name. She lived somewhere north of Abilene. Anyway. I didn't say anything bad about her to other people, I just didn't say anything. I figure what goes around, comes around. And if you cheat people, eventually it will catch up with you. I don't like drama, so we just never had any dealings from her again. No one ever asked me any questions about her, so I didn't have to give any answers. If asked for a recommendation I would have told them I would go someplace else to buy.

But that was many years ago, and many lessons ago. For a while there we had parrot mouth in like about 4 offspring, different does, different yrs breeding. We figured it was the buck, got rid of him, and got another buck, bred the same does, and never had the problem again.

It's just sad what some breeders will do to unsuspecting buyers.

But it is hard to kill those cute little babies that you were so excited about coming into this world. They don't stand a chance when they have those problems. All you are going to have is heartache if you keep them.

Sheryl


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I had one born last year, not as bad as pictured, he was a premie. He grew out of it and I castrated him and he is playmate for my herd sire. He did fine. As far as drowing goes...I do know this...it does not hurt. I personally knew a guy who drowned and they brought him back to life. The getting rid of the fluid hurt terribly, but not the initial sucking in of water. It is not an option at my farm to killl at birth...too many little ones looking on and too young at this point. I have no problem butchering them. I can't see any reason not to keep them and eat them. Altho that is the purpose of our farm is to learn and be more self sufficient. To grown things that I know what has been fed to them. I have killed many things, but all goats should have a purpose and you should have a plan. All my boys will be eaten this year, and I hope I get a few. Almost 8 kids and we sure could use some extra around here 

Linda


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't kill them myself either, the vet puts them down. We don't believe in drowning, but Ben says he is working up to bopping them on the head. You can have parrot mouth that is hereditary, and you can have it that is because of the growth plate closing early. My vet gave me a long lecture on environmental causes on day... one year I had two kids with jaws more severe than these pictures that the vet said were from environmental causes. Totally unrelated breedings. I have had one that was hereditary. I have a doeling now that had a very slight parrot mouth (less than these pix), and her bite was perfect before she was a month old.


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

Hey Michelle, I would love to hear more about the environmental factors involved when you have a minute. Thanks, Linda


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I have heard that high multiples can contribute... so whether mine was from genetics or because quads???


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

Nupine said:


> I am a sucker for misfits too Patti. Ashlyn


 I have fit into that category before. Several years ago I hatched off some Pekin Ducklings and I guess I got the humidity level or something off because one of them was born with her legs bent back the other direction and she could not walk. She just scooted around on the ground using her feet and wings. She could swim like the dickens though and loved her water. I raised her until she was grown letting her swim several times a day. When she was a baby I would let her swim in my kitchen sink while I was cooking supper. :lol She was just as happy as a lark and did not realize anything was wrong with her until the neighbor's dogs broke into the chicken pen and killed her along with about half of my chickens.


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## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

We once had a Togg buckling born with a very severe parrot mouth worse than the pics of the baby here. Paulie(parrot) grew just fine in fact I think he was larger than a lot of our other kids that year. He did fine nursing and eating hay. He was wethered and we intended to just keep him as a pet/packing wether but he got urinary calculi at a year old and we ended up loosing him then so don't know how he would have done later in life but up to a year old he was just like all the others other than being ugly. 
We didn't have any other parrot mouthed goats in the herd up until that point and never did again after. Another breeder was telling me she had several unrelated parrot mouthed kids born one year and she blamed it on a wormer she had used during the doe's pregnancy??

Also in our Togg herd we once had a buckling born with a deformed front leg. The vet thought it almost looked like his dam had been butted during pregnancy breaking his leg and then it calcified back to the bone upside down and healed there before birth. It was just below the knee. Hoppalong was wethered and kept as a pet and did just fine as well until he got urinary calculi at about 2 years old(all our wethers got stones). There were some stumps in the goat yard and Hoppalong was smart enough to learn to go up to a stump when he got tired of standing on his one front leg and prop his front end up on a stump so he could take a load off his leg and be able to stand. 
Both deformed goats were a lot fun while we had them. Guess my family is a little weird but we love them all!


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

I too had a kid born with a parrot mouth. The reason was it was genetic and ran in the lines if bred too closely or linebred. That was the only parrot mouth I had thus far......*Knock on wood!* I sold the buck for meat and also the bloodline, sire and dam, as I didn't want to perpuate the fault in future breedings.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

In all of my years of goat keeping I have not had one with this defect. 

We did have a blind cyclops one year - traced it back to giving Valbazen during the first of pregnancy. A shot with my 22 pistol quickly dispatched it. It was born during Easter camp and my brother who was farm sitting wouldn't do it. It was my job to do when I got back home. He had bottled it but I didn't give it the first bottle - I took care of it. Had I been there at birth, I would have sliced its throat immediately.


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