# Mild Cleft Palate???



## luvmygoats3 (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi, I have a purebred LaMancha doeling, born 04/26/2011. She's growing but I noticed one day she had a small amount of milkly colored snot coming out of her nose. I looked in her mouth and she has a thin slit on the top of her mouth. To look at her you wouldn't know anything could be wrong. She's growing, playing, runs, jumps, climbs . She has no other problems but I was wondering if this is something that develops into a more serious problem as she continues to grow? Is there anyone who has experienced this that could give me some information on this. I look forward to hearing from you..


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I know this is awful but you do not want to keep her. Butcher her now and make sure you mark both the sire and dam as having these genes. It is highly heritable. With folks in and out of the goat world so quickly, the idea that this doe will have a forever home with you or anyone else will never happen, she will eventually be bred to have more kids with bite faults, and if not them it will creep into others herds with this does progeny, usually new people. Someone in her ancestry didn't cull a doe or buck with this themselves, so now it has become your problem, that is the problem with not culling. Culling has to be done. It also should be part of your exam of kids at birth, I simply use a penlight flashlight to really see in the mouth. Sorry..Vicki


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I agree with Vicki. I had a family come to me last spring with a set of triplets who all had the same issue, I told them to eat them or euthanise them and do the same with both the buck & doe. They didnt like my answer and went to the vet who also told them the same thing(love this vet, very goat friendly & honest). They did put the kids down but bred the buck & doe again and came to me with the same problem this year, I told them that i can not help them this time.


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## luvmygoats3 (Jan 12, 2009)

This doeling is a twin to buck. the buck is normal, no problems at all. Could this have been caused by something other than hereditary. She is the only doeking born this year, the rest were all bucks. I have no luck at all :down


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Of course you can keep the buckling brother alive...and with bucks it makes it easier because you can wether them, then you know he won't ever breed. You know that this is herditary, more would have gone on with the bite if it is an organphosphate or other weed etc, that caused this. Other kids born to other does would have had kids with problems if you had your kids born in the same month, if this was a weed etc. That is how we know when it is a weed etc...you have multiple kids with problems all born around the same time, in dams who don't carry faults like you have seen, across bloodlines and even across breeds. You know now that it is in the line of the dam and sire, certainly you would not use this buck son. Bred to another buck the dam may never show this to you again, or maybe not until she is old...older does with old eggs give us the worst problems in kids. Bred to your other does the buck didn't show you this in his sons? That is how genetics works sometimes. When it presents itself, you cull and move on.


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## luvmygoats3 (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks Vicki. that makes perfect sense about the other Doe's not having kids with problems and they all kidded about 1 month apart. This doe is a first freshener, I bred her to my friends Reg. Lamancha buck. They have owned him for about 4 years and have never seen this problem before. Leads me to believe it's in my doe's background somewhere.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Kimberly, I just want to say that in genetics, it will be in both parents. This sounds like a recessive gene. The parent can have one dominant gene and one recessive gene, and when bred to another parent that has the same recessive gene, a certain amount of the time it will show up in the offspring. 

This happens in miniature horses with bad bites. Let's say the bite gene is called the "b" gene. A capital B means a good bite, a lower case b means a bad one. Both parents would have the genotype Bb, and since the big B is dominant, that bad bite does not show up. If you cross Bb to Bb, 25% of the time you will get the genotype bb and that is where the bad bite shows up. Both the recessive genes have to be inherited for that trait to show up. Because it does not show up 75% of the time, a lot of people feel like they don't need to cull. However, if miniature horse breeders wanted to get really serious about eliminating bad bites, they would cull both parents (spay/neuter) each time this showed up and soon the gene would be gone from the breeding population. 

Usually though the breeder does not understand how the bad bite was inherited, so they will blame the mare (or the stallion, as the case may be) and go on thinking that *their* horse does not have that gene. It still does though... And even though all their other horses are BB (both genes for a good bite) if they go on using the horse that is Bb, soon that gene will be in their foals, and the foals will carry this trait for a bad bite down the generations.


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## luvmygoats3 (Jan 12, 2009)

So as far as trying to breed this doe with a different buck next year should definetly be avoided? Sorry for all the questions, I'm new to these "problems" and any information is very much appreciated. It's very sad. this First freshener is such a nice doe. But I definetly want to smart about this too. I don't want to have this happen again next year.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

That is totally a personal decision, and I sure don't want to railroad you into something, so no matter what I say do what is the best for you! 

The fact remains that this doe has that gene. Is it worth it to you? That I do not know. She may pass it on... there is, I have said, a 25% chance of that gene expressing in a bad bite (if she happens to be bred to a buck who also has it) but a 75% chance of passing it on. Let me see... this is called a "punnett square" and it shows how this gene might be inherited: 

B b
B |BB|Bb
b |bB|bb

On the top, are the genes from the father. Along the side at the left edges are the genes from the dam. The little squares with two genes in them show the offspring. So from this combination, one (BB) will be totally normal and have a good bite. Two (Bb or bB) will carry the gene for the bad bite. One (bb) will have a bad bite. Three out of 4 have the bad bite gene, or at least one copy of it, although only one will express it. 

Remember that genetics is like throwing a coin in the air and getting heads or tails. 50% of the time you get heads, 50% of the time you get tails.... but the coin does not "remember" that the last 30 times it ended in tails so it has to be heads this time... therefore what happens is totally random. It MIGHT be heads, or it MIGHT be tails - you don't know ahead of time. You can get these little runs of all heads or all tails, but in the long run, over thousands of coin tosses, it will be 50/50. Same with genetics. Over the long haul, a doe with a bad bite gene will throw it 50% of the time. Is that worth it to you? Only you can answer that question.

And let me say, I am very sorry, and yes, I too have been in this situation and it is totally sad and difficult. My heart goes out to you. Whatever you decide, I do understand that it is very difficult. But you should decide what is best for you, once you have as much information as you can gather about this issue.


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## luvmygoats3 (Jan 12, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Of course you can keep the buckling brother alive...and with bucks it makes it easier because you can wether them, then you know he won't ever breed. You know that this is herditary, more would have gone on with the bite if it is an organphosphate or other weed etc, that caused this. Other kids born to other does would have had kids with problems if you had your kids born in the same month, if this was a weed etc. That is how we know when it is a weed etc...you have multiple kids with problems all born around the same time, in dams who don't carry faults like you have seen, across bloodlines and even across breeds. You know now that it is in the line of the dam and sire, certainly you would not use this buck son. Bred to another buck the dam may never show this to you again, or maybe not until she is old...older does with old eggs give us the worst problems in kids. Bred to your other does the buck didn't show you this in his sons? That is how genetics works sometimes. When it presents itself, you cull and move on.


Vicki,
This buck was only bred to this one doe. I used My Reg. LaMancha buck to breed my other does. All of my other kids were healthy.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You could repeat the exact breeding and never see this fault again. It is your herd, all I can share is what I would do. I cull for problems at birth, and believe me when I say you will be psycho about checking kids close from now on because of this...if a doeling is culled at birth for a serious fault than I would never sell a buckling out of this breeding or keep him. But there are lots of goats who have bad bites, bad feet, extra teats...if you at least don't keep kids showing the gene, and don't sell or keep bucks out of the line, and disclose the problems the line has, than your fine. But keeping a doe who has thrown a serious fault and keeping a doe with a serious fault and breeding her is a whole nother thing.


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## luvmygoats3 (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks Vicki, I will be getting rid of the both the doe and buck. I wouldn't want to pass that problem on to someone else. Thank you for the information.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I had a LM doe who threw one doeling who must have a problem with her palate, but we can't see it when we've looked in her mouth. She belongs to my friend now. She had milk come out her nose as a kid and a little cud as an adult. She's now had 4 kids out of an unrelated buck and none have the problem. I have her sister out of a different buck and neither she nor her progeny have a problem either. I guess it's up to you whether you want to gamble on breeding her, but if you do, be sure the buck is a total outcross.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Most traits in mammals depend on more than one gene. The theory on bad bite showing with a bb (double recessive) genotype is correct according to Mendel's genetics, but since later research has shown that there are usually several genes that cause a certain fenotype, the chance of getting the cleft palate is very likely a lot less than 25%. That said, I do agree that getting rid of a doeling with a cleft palate is definitely the right thing to do, since she obviously DOES have that combined recessive genotype and therefore may very well have a much higher risk of handing that trait or at least the risk of reproducing that trait to her kids.


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