# Calf manna



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

After a few problems I had with grain, I had been feeding just rolled oats and then some weeks ago I started adding calf manna until i had built up to the max recommended amount for goats. I have to say "what a difference!" The milkers look so sleek and they have all added about 10-12 oz to their milk production. Is it OK to continue with this or is Calf manna more for emergency situations?


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Calf manna can be used all the time. Some milkers do after awhile level out and can be weaned off of it. Ours are doing so well they do not need it now. I use calf manna in our flushing before breeding, bucks and does. Kids get calf manna and meat goat pellets twice a day. It is in our management all the time. Another thing that has helped our girls retain or gain is meat goat pellets. They get this in their dry period as well as the calf manna along with free choice alfalfa. Watch your easy keepers on this stuff! Psyche kidded April 23rd and still has some pregger pits. she is down now to just her grain :biggrin. 
Tam


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Ok, thanks. I had never used it because I heard it was horribly expensive but when I finally decided to get some it turned out it wasn't really all that high for such quality ingredients.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

Calf Manna is doing wonders for our dry yearling who was so thin and scraggly. In combination with good food,copper bolus and minerals she is looking like a different goat after only a month with us.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Now I have had folks debate with me that the results cannot be attributed to the Calf manna because we bolus. I have been using Calf manna for four years and bolusing for two, so I can say that before calf manna and after, yes improvement. Calf Manna with bolusing great improvement. 
Tam


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

The first time we delt with an old,very skinny horse, the barn we boarded him at recommended Calf-Manna to bring him back and it worked great. This was about 16 years ago or so.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I believe you are looking at increased fat intake. The first two ingredients are soy and corn and then hominy.
A bit later on the list is vegetable oil. It's just fat intake that makes the dif! 
Fat fat and more fat. Just put a tablespoon of a good quality oil on your milkstand ration or buy some chops.
Save some money.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Full list of ingredients:
"Soybean meal, corn, hominy feed, feeding oatmeal, dried whey, dehydrated alfalfa meal, linseed meal, brewer's dried yeast, vegetable oil, fenugreek seed, anise oil, calcium carbonate, monocalsium phosphate, dicalcium phosphate, salt, sulfur, iron oxide, ferrous carbonate, ferrous sulfate, copper oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate, calcium iodate, Vit A supplement, Vit D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, thiamin mononitrate, niacin supplement, riboflavin supplement, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vit B 12 supplement, folic acid, biotin."

So yeah theres fats AND minerals AND vitamins.
Tam


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

My goats LOVE calf manna. But alas...my feed bill has gotten to the point it's making me broke....so I don't feed it at the moment.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Mins and vits are found everywhere.
You have a min supplement out right?
Think about the whey. If it is heated enough to kill disease is it of any nutritive value?
This is your original basic agricultural waste as candy.
Sorry....I know it's popular but so are unidentifiable things with long ingredient lists that come in pretty bags at the grocery store.
No thanks.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

My goats have always liked Calf Manna. And they have always done well on it to.  The only thing I don't like about it is the price. And I could never find the calf manna knock offs that everyone talks about on here.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

My goats basically turn noses up at calf manna, they'll pick at it a little. I guess they are getting enough protein with the alfalfa pellets and cob or whole oats.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yup- It's a top seller. So are Doritos. Just not my thing. 
Everyone is pretty well primed for Soylent Green to happen. I was behind a lady in the store who did not put one real piece of food on the conveyor belt out of her full to overflowing cart. Every single thing was a manufactured product so far from the original source but engineered to smell and taste good and even perhaps have some nutrition. Maybe. She's hooked for sure and zillions of others from the looks of the shelves. 
It's the same with feed. Artificial Constructs bother me since I read a lot and trust no one to be after anything but personal gain. But then again I am also thinking in terms of a larger herd (we have reduced to 25 mostly adults) and just the cost would be prohibitive with the same results available from soy meal and chops. 
Soy hull pellets are great for conditioning if you are willing to feed estrogenators that cause reproductive and thyroid issues and some of the most toxic agri chems used. They also contain endocrine disrupting enzymes and trypsin inhibitors which result in growth halt -goitrogens and phytic acid which inhibits mineral uptake. Since that is the main ingredient in that compound perhaps the only benefit is the added fat and the level of vitamin supplementation. Lots of good articles on the problems with soy.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

These are great discussions, but difficult for a newby to figure out. Not that this matters - just letting you know from a "new to goats" perspective. But, please don't stop the discussion.



buckrun said:


> Soy hull pellets are great for conditioning if you are willing to feed estrogenators that cause reproductive and thyroid issues and some of the most toxic agri chems used. They also contain endocrine disrupting enzymes and trypsin inhibitors which result in growth halt -goitrogens and phytic acid which inhibits mineral uptake. Since that is the main ingredient in that compound perhaps the only benefit is the added fat and the level of vitamin supplementation. Lots of good articles on the problems with soy.


What does that mean?

From the list of ingredients quoted, is soybean meal "soy hull pellets"? If not, than why bring that into it? And, for clarification,


buckrun said:


> and just the cost would be prohibitive with the same results available from soy meal and chops.


So what does THAT mean? And, compared to "soy hull pellets". And then the last statement, "lots of good articles on the problems with soy."

I'm not trying to be argumentative, Lee. Just trying to figure out what you're saying.

I'm sure I'll get an explanation. THANKS!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

What she is saying is that we need to go to the organic store or better yet go right to the source and get it from the ground where its growing to feed our goats correctly. Not every one has ten, twenty or fifty acres, and some like me have to dry lot their animals. With our mineral deficiencies even the best mineral supplement does not help much. Maybe we should just sell out cause we can't fed them naturally. Hmmm
TAM


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Here's a thread on roasted soybeans. http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?action=search2


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Now Tammy- don't get your panties in a wad. :rofl Go have a nice cuppa.
We have had this discussion before and there are MANY ways to feed a goat.
Yes it is certainly easier for new people with a few animals to do a simple manufactured product.
If it works for you just stick with it. I have had decades to play with ideas about feeding and management so just ignore all that. I have a hobby of nutritional therapy which is way too much info for just having a few milk goats. 

However- it is not new information that soy products can result in problems. I presented soy hull pellets as a cheaper alternative to calf manna for similar results but noted that it has problems. All soy has the potential to cause problems. I am sure the feed engineers have a handle on that for you. More than likely all of the specific supplements are to undo what the soy is doing. But I prefer food I can identify by looking at it. I don't buy engineered people food and I don't buy manufactured goat food. My milk customers do not want to drink milk produced with soy. This is a health and wellness group and they study all aspects of it intensively because they either have health issues or prefer to prevent them despite the fact that this makes eating more complicated. 

People who do not test positive for milk allergies test positive for allergies to milk produced from animals fed on soy.
Keep in mind soy production is govt subsidized and so it is cheap to use as feed ingredient. There is a huge push to use these products but the research after years of use is coming up with some rather frightening findings. One of the most disturbing is soy fed infants and genital abnormalities from the levels of phytoestrogens.
Anyway. Obviously you don't need to know all that to raise healthy goats. 
Don't let me confuse you. 
Lee


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

What, exactly, are "chops"? I've never seen or heard that term until i started reading this site!

We don't have a lot of grains around here, mostly your basic whole, cracked or steamed corn and whole oats and maybe some imported barley. The whole native oats are cheap and the goats love them. The corn and barely are mostly from out of state or Canada


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Corn that is cut into pieces basically the size chickens can handle. 
It's in my whole grain mix mostly to avoid wear and tear on teeth.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Lee is correct that there are many preservatives in these feeds. And it is ones decision to feed what they will. It is however also ones responsibility to allow others their opinions and rights to be or do as they see fit. 
Still love ya Lee. 
Now I must go posion our goats and release the bellowing she-beast of the barn yard of her udder offal :biggrin.
Tam


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I was just sharing my opinion and conclusions from my experience as always.
People are free to discard or investigate. The research is there to do with as you will.
I don't think I mentioned preservatives.....but yah that too. 
We are all in Toxic Times.
Lee



> And it is ones decision to feed what they will. It is however also ones responsibility to allow others their opinions and rights to be or do as they see fit.


 And Tam- I did say that if it works for you do it. And as you mentioned-I also am allowed my opinion be it ever so far from mainstream. Thanks.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Tammy & Lee: YOU ARE TOO FUNNY. :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

The banter, even between questions, really does eventually answer the questions. Gosh, I love it. Or course, I still have questions.

So, based on many "opinions" or on Goatkeeping 101, I have included Calf Manna in my kids ration. I do not include it in my adult goats ration. Although, sorry to say, Lee, but I do feed Purina Goat Chow for my two does (that's all I have, plus my two kid doelings - so four goats total). THERE IS NO CHOICE HERE. Meat goat pellets are Noble Goat with Deccox. That, along with Calf Manna plus some BOSS, is what I feed the kids (10 weeks old now, still on milk 2x/day, and eating alfalfa hay.

It makes no sense for me, with my small "herd" to have special feed. I can appreciate what you all have to offer regarding feed choices and it makes me think.......always, but.......no sense right now. But I LOVE reading what y'all have to say.

It also reminds me that someone on here (very popular and respected), also feeds Calf Manna, at least to kids.

And on a more personal note, not that I've tried it, BUT.......Calf Manna smells delicious.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Calf manna tastes kinda like licorice malt balls. The knock off tastes like malt balls. At least to me. Meat goat pellets taste blah but not as bad as dog food :twisted. Seriously. I prefer the taste of calf manna to grain. 
I started tasting feeds because 1. I wanted to know what it tasted like, and 2. so I could tell if there was any off feed going through. Sometimes you can't catch that with your nose  
Tam


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

A ha! Another feed taster! I have always done the taste testing of all my feeds (except dog and cat food) just so i can tell if there is something off or a change in ingredients.

To me the Calf Manna tastes the same as the Sunshine pellets made as a local knock off, they smell the same too. I feed it to my chickens, occasionally to my goats and horses if they need a boost.


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

So, philisophically I am totally with Lee on the soy stuff. Don't feed it to my family for those very reasons. However, I only have two does and one buck kid and am not sure how or if I can go about mixing my own grain ration. I do get my grain from a local small town feed store that mixes their own. I need to get more tomorrow so am going to ask if it has soy and see what I can find out. My guess is that if I wanted them to mix me something special it would be in quantities I couldn't use fast enough.

If I wanted to buy smaller quantities of my own grains and mix my own - what grains and what proportions do I need? What about all the extras they put in - minerals, molasses, etc.? If my goats have free choice loose minerals is that covered? I looked all through 101 and couldn't find a basic formula and am hoping that maybe Lee has one.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Caprine Beings said:


> Calf manna tastes kinda like licorice malt balls. The knock off tastes like malt balls. At least to me. Meat goat pellets taste blah but not as bad as dog food :twisted. Seriously. I prefer the taste of calf manna to grain.
> I started tasting feeds because 1. I wanted to know what it tasted like, and 2. so I could tell if there was any off feed going through. Sometimes you can't catch that with your nose
> Tam


Yea, but have you ever tasted pine needles or cedar? :rofl I have tasted pine needles. One of the most horrible things to get in your mouth!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

lorit said:


> So, philisophically I am totally with Lee on the soy stuff. Don't feed it to my family for those very reasons. However, I only have two does and one buck kid and am not sure how or if I can go about mixing my own grain ration. I do get my grain from a local small town feed store that mixes their own. I need to get more tomorrow so am going to ask if it has soy and see what I can find out. My guess is that if I wanted them to mix me something special it would be in quantities I couldn't use fast enough.
> 
> If I wanted to buy smaller quantities of my own grains and mix my own - what grains and what proportions do I need? What about all the extras they put in - minerals, molasses, etc.? If my goats have free choice loose minerals is that covered? I looked all through 101 and couldn't find a basic formula and am hoping that maybe Lee has one.


All I feed mine are alfalfa pellets (3 lbs per doe per day) and whole oats with a handful or two of BOSS thrown on top. They do very well on this. Just make sure you have a good mineral since there are not minerals in their grain.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

We are lucky enough to have a small family operated feed mill that mixes and bags very close to us.
The mix I use is approximately 12% protien varying some depending on the quality of the crop as all grains do.
200 pounds steam rolled oats
200 pounds crimped barley
100 pounds chops or cracked corn
40 pounds beet pulp
25 pounds sunflower seed
In winter we add a bit more fat in the form of rice bran

This is the 'Sondra Mix' and she did it a batch at a time by hand.

They also get 17% protein alfalfa pellets separately when they want it. 
They do not want it this time of year because there is so much green stuff to poke down. They will want it when the quality of the roughage goes down. In winter they get protein tested improved bermuda hay grown locally. We cannot get alfalfa hay here.
Keep in mind I do not push for optimum milk production with this ration and just allow them to produce what they can on this regime. In an experiment to increase production we fed a very high protein pellet designed for dairy goats but also began having multiple metabolic problems that we did not have on just grain. Canceled that great idea.
Also remember it is only very recently that anything bagged for goats has been available. When we began a dairy herd in mid 1970's the only thing out there was whole grain and or horse ration- essentially whole grain with molasses. Adding a quality mineral -yeast and direct fed microbials and extra copper did more for our herd than any other changes we have made over the years.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Lee, some good points, glad you took the time to write them. 

I feed Sondra mix but have to say that I started to see major improvement when I "fixed" my alfalfa feeding (17% pellets as opposed to mystery untested alfalfa hay or the 14% pellets). If on tight budget I would go with oats and corn and supplement the fat intake. It really is no special feed, I buy the oats whole and the corn chopped, the feed store carries them all the time from the same source and they are cheaper than Purina anything here. 

About the taste, we need to be careful not to fall into the trap of what appeals to us. Plus that animals do not satisfy their cravings for taste but nutritional requirements with food. I believe goats go after the most nutritious first, not the tastiest. That is a human vice. I have never seen any wild animal living on their natural diet to be obese but as humans we face weight problems all the time because the taste, smell and the visual appeal (packaging) dictate what we eat. 

There is no way we can determine quality of goat feed or what is better for them by purely tasting it and judging it by our taste buds. Even though I do sniff stuff and taste myself. 

Jana


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

And Jana I am sure your taste buds can pick up must or mildew that your eye or nose can't . Thats why I taste it when I open it. Tam


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I taste feed too. Sometimes stuff will smell fine but taste musty. I think maybe one of the reasons my goats responded so well to the calf manna was the fact that I had unknowingly been feeding some bad grain so they had hardly been eating much grain at all. Anyway, the calf manna (for whatever reason) really pulled them out of looking mediocre to really shining. And with calf manna, there are no mystery ingredients like "forage products" or "grain products", like most pellets I have seen.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

If you think about it, though, you can only actually taste sweet, salty, sour, and bitter. Everything else is smell (think of when you have a bad head cold and can't taste anything). Though I imagine that putting the feed into your mouth gets it closer to your "smeller"....


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<<Even though I do sniff stuff and taste myself. >>

LOL, have to edit that I sniff and taste goat feed myself, it came out wrong the way I wrote it earlier. I don't lick myself.

Jana


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

prairie nights said:


> <<Even though I do sniff stuff and taste myself. >>
> 
> LOL, have to edit that I sniff and taste goat feed myself, it came out wrong the way I wrote it earlier. I don't lick myself.
> 
> Jana


We are all relieved by the clarification. :rofl


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

:rofl :rofl Let the goats do that!


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

:rofl


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

getting just down to plain basics. The slick coat Michelle comes from the added fat (can be done with sunflower seeds or oil or even corn oil) the increased milk production comes from adding protien IMO and (can be done with soybean meal for alot less money) Ask me how I know.?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Ok, I'll bit.

How do you know?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Because calf manna and the knock offs of it are simply a soy protein pellet. Which is nothing more than soybeanmeal. Ground soybeans...so not alot of reason to use the name brand....use the knock offs, or better yet use SBM or roasted whole soybeans. V


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

My goats will dive on the least nutritious feed before the healthy stuff, like goats like owner I guess. They LOVE junk food....vanilla wafers, donuts, bread, ginger snaps etc. and will gobble that stuff long before they go after their grain or concentrates. 

In defense of their goat instincts though, they will eat the whole grains from their feed before they eat the pellets. I don't have the option of anything but commercial feeds up here, no mills or local grains except oats. sigh.


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