# Diamond V XP yeast



## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

ok, I'm tired of searching thru old posts and it not always being clear so I'm just going to post and ask. I sent my hubby to the feed store with a list and he came back with http://www.diamondv.com/products/xp.html

when what I thought was better was the dairy selenium one http://www.diamondv.com/products/diamune_dairy.htm

Should I take it back or go ahead and use it? I'm also supplementing with freechoice Sweetlix Meatmaker and horse vits with organic selenium & vit E recommended by the AI class folks, so as I think that through, I've got enough good selenium and maybe the regular XP yeast is just fine? They also get about every two or three days, a human Vit E pill and for the last week plus, they've been getting a human chewable Vit C.

I have copper bolused before and am probably due again, but everyone looks super healthy except for the one doe I've been posting about with the mastitis, she seems to be my canary in a coal mine, lol. When I got her she had major fishtail and reddish on her black fur. Under my care here, the hair is back to black and the fishtail is so close to gone that I might be just paranoid and imagining it. Her twin sister has the most luxurious shiny thick plush fur and her tail hairs are the longest - everyone comments on her tail.

This is only my second winter with them. Last winter they all had dandruff bad, (from goat lice?), but this year they all look so much healthier and only the "canary" doe has a little on her withers. Fecals have been super clean.

Basic food is good quality grass hay at all times, and almost free choice organic alfalfa pellets, they run out once in a while. They also get some beet pulp and browse which lately has been only conifer greens, ivy, blackberries (we still have green leaves), photinia and evergreen honeysuckle. I teach about edible/toxic plants and am one of the few folks approved to provide browse to our zoo, so no worries about anything there, except for maybe how much browse replaces more nutritious foods in the summer, but not now, lol. Now its just a dinner salad and vegetable  which reminds me, they also get orange and banana & veggie peels.

Ok, I think that's everything relevant, LOL, it was only a simple question about this yeast bag, but it matters what else they get in context, right?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

We use the xp because we inject selenium. Often if they are selenium deficient with all that is available nutritionally daily then more given orally is to no avail. It has to be given by injection. This is very individual and you just have to keep your paranoid eyes peeled! 

Lee


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

"..keep your paranoid eyes peeled!" 

oh yeah, I can do THAT :rofl :rofl :rofl

usually you're telling me I do too much of that :rofl

ok, I know the signs of copper deficiency... fishtails, hair color lightening in odd ways, etc. But selenium deficiency is much more vague in symptoms, right? Weak muscles and susceptible to pneumonia, difficulty conceiving, weak kids... those aren't going to help me much on a current basis, maybe if I had a herd of 100 animals and always had someone kidding, lol. 

What do you keep your "paranoid eyes peeled" for when assessing selenium levels? Does anyone do blood tests? I heard they are not accurate, but you'll set me straight... :biggrin


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

ok, back to this thread instead of starting a new one, cuz it would start the same... I can't find what I'm looking for...

I finally opened the bag of Diamond V XP yeast, and searched on here for how much to feed. Couldn't find it, I know its here, I don't know what my problem is with finding things later... 

anyway, I've given them some and they wolf it down like its crack! My goats are pretty spoiled and generally turn up their noses at new things, but they just about inhale this stuff! I even mixed in the herbs and Probios they don't want to eat and they still wolf it down... what's IN this!?!? 

the bag says feed 1/4 to 1/2 oz per goat, how much do you feed? And how do you feed only such a small amount when they are all but fighting over it? One past post I read said just top dress milker grain with it, but it benefits the non-milkers too, right? Those of you with more goats than I certainly can pull out every individual goat and make sure they get their 1/4 to 1/2 oz... what's the real scoop here?


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## KingsCoGoatGuy (Dec 20, 2008)

LLB101, 

I top dress everyones grain with yeast culture about a 1-2 tablespoons. It is also mixed in with my minerals at a 1 part yeast to 5 parts mineral. 

Hope it helps. Yes! My herd goes crazy for it, but not as much as Kelp Meal.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

so you feed them all grain individually, not just the milkers? I can't imagine the logistics of that here or with very many goats...

mixing with the minerals seems like a good idea. What happens if they eat too much minerals mix, lol?


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

We used to mix the Diamond V yeast into the minerals, along with some kelp. The salt in the mineral limits their uptake somewhat.

I say "used to" because our custom mineral (by WolfKill in WA) now has the Diamond V yeast mixed in at the same 1:5 ratio at a fraction of the cost.


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## KingsCoGoatGuy (Dec 20, 2008)

As Camille said. The salt controls the intake of the minerals with yeast mixed in it.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

My minerals also contain it, but I do buy a bag each kidding season...know those little scoops that come in powdered laundry soap? I feed that amount in the bottom of each milkers milkstand ration, until the 50 pounds is gone. Helps them get through the change of more grain without so much dog poop in the barn. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

the salt limiting it makes sense, you get the best of both worlds there, the yeast encourages them to eat more minerals but the salt puts the brakes on it before its outta control.

Vicki brings up my next question, what does the yeast actually DO? How does it work to reduce the soft poops? How is it similar or different to what ProBios does? (Keeping in mind Vicki's repeated info that its only the acidophilous that does anything in ProBios)


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Yeast has several distinct periods in its growth, replication, and sustained metabolysis of feed. At first, it needs a good amount of minerals and nutrients, plus a slightly acidic pH and temperature above 60F to multiply. After that, as it enters anaerobic respiration, yeast needs to multiply and have the building blocks to support cell walls strong enough enough to withstand the osmotic pressure from salt and pH levels in the rumen. That cell wall building is from proteins.. more specifically from amino acids, and even more specifically, using the available nitrogen from the products that the other bacteria produce (such as ammonia). Without this absorption of nitrogen, the liver converts ammonia to urea, which is excreted in urine, and also in high levels, in milk. I'm going to post a followup post on milk MUN in a bit to cover browse/protein affect on MUN. 

When yeast helps to regulate the pH and nitrogen levels, stabilizing them and making them less dependent on the changes from one feeding to next, then the rumen can function more efficiently.

There are other benefits, too, like Vitamin B addition due to yeast cell digestion. End result it that the rumen can work as intended.

Edit: When I make wine, I will actually add DAP (di-ammonium phosphate) for nitrogen, or the yeast get sluggish during later fermentation. That stuff smells like pure ammonia when dissolved and the yeasts love it.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks Pav! Your much appreciated. 

This was something talked about when I went to a clinic with my father, he cattle, and I walked the halls and then sat in on a sheep talk.....This high level of urea excreted in the urine causes calculi in rams. Dr. Kennedy who used to be head vet with Pipestone vet clinic, said this was the second form of calculi, the body absorbs calcium from the blood and bones to protect the urethra in both bucks and does. High protein feed and hay can also leach more calcium from the blood and bones than it is putting into the doe.....why kids on high protein grains, high protein alfalfa hay and protien blocks...will still bow their legs when bred early. The calcium is not being absorbed, and their calcium bank is being depleted to protect the urethra, exactly like the Western diet is causing osteoperosis in frail women. And bucks, because the calcium coated urea is roughly shaped, it can clog the urethra at the P trap. And cause calculi. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

"wolf it down like its crack" We have the same problem here! 
Good stuff ~
That is what I discovered with this yeast supplement Pav with out even knowing how to talk about it. The price made me skeptical since the carrier was soda but it works. It keeps them rolling without a glitch. Production leveled out and no digestive upsets. I also noted improved coat even tho I was coppering. When I first discovered it I was still feeding high protein dairy ration and it was making milk but also upset goat tummies and clumpy poohs. I started campaigning for the product so we could have a supplier locally since I was shipping it in fedex and still thought it was worth it! Thanks for the background and I agree from experience that buffering changes to the rumen contents is a really important part of husbanding dairy goats. I think it's the theory behind the baking soda tray but with the addition of the yeast and microbials it seems to be far more effective.
Lee


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> High protein feed and hay can also leach more calcium from the blood and bones than it is putting into the doe


This was talked about in those links PAV posted in another thread too and it was the reasoning behind waiting to breed does till kidding as 2 year olds. Old School indeed but then there is more bone mass to work with in the milk cycle of depositing and calling on the calcium.
The alfalfa rich diet lets everyone get away with breeding the younger does without bone damage since there is so much dietary calcium circulating but it still depends on a perfectly functioning rumen for good results.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

great answer Pav! thanks! makes sense. So what are the pros/cons of mixing a bit of ProBios in the mineral/yeast mix too? I know in soil about how the yeasts/fungi/bacteria compete, and they thrive in different conditions. In the rumen nutrient cycles, whatever is most needed will thrive to have optimal balance?

I'm interested in the browse/protein/MUN link too... my girls get such a variety of browse most of the year. Some cheese purists say this is back for milk quality, I think it makes healthier goats generally, depending on what and how much of course... anyway I'm interested in understanding more about this.

Breeding as two year olds... in all this goat stuff there seems to be such debate! I've read a lot that waiting reduces udder production. This thinking on bone mass makes sense. Right now I have almost 9 month old doeling that I want to breed this year still if I can. She still had very strong heat this week. But she still looks like a baby to me! Her mom was bred at 10 months last year, maybe I just forgot what she looked like, or she looked mature compared to the kids I had at the time? Probably should be in another thread anyway...

Back to the real topic here, on how much of this "crack craved" yeast to feed... the conclusion seems to be to mix with minerals 1:5 and they will then self limit due to the salt. LOL, I have a cartoon in my head about them eating so much salt in this that they all gain 5 lbs in a day...


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Lee, baking soda is just a "dumb" buffer. It buffers when too much acid has been produced, such as when switching diets, or when sugar is more readily available to bacteria (like when using fresh browse or too many fruit treats.). It does buffer bases (ammonia is a base) to a small degree. I consider yeast "smart" because it's alive and can participate in the flora of the rumen.

Lacia Lynne, I see probios as a reactive tool, not a proactive one. Use for kids at birth, after antibiotics, bloat, feed changes, stuff like that. Lactic bacteria are lazy... they're not like rumenococcus which will digest cellulose. They may nibble on some cellulose as a last resort before death, but much prefer easily available sugars, hydrolized starches, and the like. They do serve useful functions, like eating what other bacteria don't, regulating pH, etc. I wouldn't add probios with a healthy rumen.

You're absolutely right, in the rumen, there's a lot of competition, too. The winners are the ones who can access the most readily available food supply, and that's cellulose fibers and starches. To me the optimal balance is achieved naturally through varied browse with alfalfa at its core. We add grain and BOSS and others supplements for the milk, and because the milk breeds need it or they'd literally wither and die. Yeast isn't a crucial requirement either... it just helps. In the wild, it's difficult for a goat to constantly get 15%+ protein feed. So if we feed that, we should try and reduce the stress it puts on their bodies.

I posted a very long post on MUN in the grain byproducts thread. I haven't heard many people say varied browse is bad for milk. Surprises me. Is their reasoning that you can't make consistent cheese commercially because the milk will vary so much with the seasons and feed? In that case, what they may mean is they'd rather bend the world to their will and produce a profit at all costs. One of my favorite cheeses is an alpine made from the high mountains on heritage cows who browse hundreds of herbs and wildflowers. Yeah, that cheese is made 3 months out of the year, but it's amazing, and made from happy cows . The biggest reason for managing feed and micromanaging browse is for production and profits.

I'm trying to catch the last heat right now with Miri, too (10 months old). I think I found a buck up in Snohomish I may buy.

1:5 seems good, or top dress their pellets.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> One of my favorite cheeses is an alpine made from the high mountains on heritage cows who browse hundreds of herbs and wildflowers


I have read about sheep's milk cheeses that cannot be replicated because they graze on wide variety of Mediterranean herbs. 
Sure would like to get my chompers on some of that!



> ProBios in the mineral/yeast mix too


Lacia- the xp dfm is designed with freeze dried microbials to undo whatever damage we do each day with all our loving care- probios is lame comparatively. They will level off consumption after it has been available awhile. Top dressing is the best way to know exactly how much everyone is getting but mineral uptake will go up as well when you entice with the yeast product. 
Lee


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks Buckrun/Lee. I bought the XP, no DFM, so that's why I was asking about adding ProBios to the mix myself.

I did mix up the 1:5 ratio and put it out in 3 containers so they could share more peacefully until they got their fill. It took about an hour that they kept going from container to container and licking at more of it after the inital wolfing it down. Quite a bit was consumed! They kept coming back to it off an on all afternoon, but by evening they finally seemed to have their fill. I hope its self limiting in its effects as Pav was explaining, or I'm going to have some goats with tummy aches tomorrow!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

They will be thirsty!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Pav, yes, some folks say they want predictable cheese. Personally I think that misses the point and I'm with you. But there are folks that say only hay/alfalfa & grain for milkers for predictable milk. Maybe for the fresh milk market it would be equally important to have milk sans browse flavoring, I do notice mine varies, LOL. But I think some fresh browse is good.

Lee, lots of rain here last night refilled their big water tub :lol and that's why I think they will have all gained weight today.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

I get it with wanting predictable cheese. Even as an artisan cheesemaker, say you get a commercial buyer who says "this is the best thing I've ever tasted; I'll take a standing order for 50% of your production" (this happens once in a while), if you have no clue why it turned out that way, it's no good. Reputation counts for a lot, and it's no good to disappoint your customers with cheese that tastes drastically different.

I actually think for practical reasons most artisan cheesemakers should strive for this, else they'll go out of business. They should implement quality control, bacterial counts, HACCP, all that good stuff. But the next stage in artisan and homestead craft is to work with the natural cycles of your animals and feed, sort of a in a permaculture kind of way. Like what Mas Masumoto wrote about in Epitaph for a Peach. Purposefully plant wildflowers and herbs with your pasture mix. Practice intense rotational grazing -- helps with worm control. Fertilize with the whey from your cheese. Breed half the herd in the spring and half in the autumn for year round milk, or introduce ND for hardiness and year-round possibilities. Push the does only as hard as they want to go and cull nonconforming kids, especially bucks. Introduce genetic diversity in cycles for a robust herd. If doing milk sales especially, use a multi-breed approach to balance out the flavor profile to something consistent and "signature" for your herd.

But, that's me on my soapbox . 

To be back on topic, for anyone milking does, especially high performing does, everything I've read says buy the yeast. It will pay for itself with extra milk and butterfat, and better herd health.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

well dangnabbit... there goes my next career, lol, Artisan Cheesemaker is just not for me in that sense... more like Arteeest Cheesemaker, lol, y'gets what the creative process turns out that time...

I keep excellent milking records, we'll see if this yeast does anything for milk production in extended lactation... going on 16 months now...


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