# anyone have ideas on how to save Gretta



## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Since I see some of the same folks from HT on here and some that are no longer frequent visitors, and those that do not that I value their input greatly we on HT are at a loss of what could be wrong with Gretta and since shes a beloved goat that belongs to a beloved member Im going out on a limb here.

I am going to post links to the whole threads but post the information to be gleemed through.

First thread where she first got sick but seem to recover, 
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/goats/458148-help-something-wrong-gretta.html

The recurrence
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/goats/461195-gretta-having-problems-again.html 
Our ideas that dont seem to fit.
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/goats/461373-mineslon.html

If this has to be removed I understand


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

9-2
"She was heading out the door toppled over and now she is just standing there shaking. Eyelids pale! I'm headed out to get a temp" Temp was a low right at 99
" Ok...just got back from the vet. She has a fever but I didn't ask the exact temp. Her lugs had a little bit of congestion. He gave her 4.5 cc Nuflor and 1.5 Banamine. He checked her mouth again. Can't see anything wrong there. She is trembling on and off. She ate a cookie but seemed to have trouble chewing it. She seems weak and unstable. The vet was in a hurry. He offered to do boodwork but I opted not to. She is not bloated. I gave 3 cc's of Ivermectin. The vet was a little in a hurry. I kinda stormed in there with her."

This treatment seemed to work, she was sedated later on and her teeth and throat checked and where clear, fecals where also clear according to the vet. By the 9-22 after much babying with goat soup she had ate normally and seemed normal.


10-16
"She is having trouble either chewing or swallowing again. I can't tell which. She can swallow. She eats her mash/soup like she is starving. Then stops and wipes her lips/mouth on the first hard object she can find. Then turns her nose to eating anything at all.".
This over conditioned goat is now getting very thin.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

HAs this doe been copper bolused? Just curious. And what is the status on the selenium in her area? 
Was she tested for Coccidia?
These are just instant thoughts. All the rest was addressed on HT.
Tam


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Im posting next the results of her blood work. Yes this goat has been coppered, they use replamine and live in a non-deficient selenium area. I personally think this is mineral poisoning but not educated enough to support that theory.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

WBC 14,550
SEG 71%
LYMP 25%
MONO 4%
Hematocrit 25%
hemoglobin 8.3 GM%
Total protein 5.0
***ALB <1 (normal should be 2.8-3.8)
ALP 18 (normal 75-228)
Alt 8 (normal 23-44)

"everything else was in normal range
He wants to try the Tetrecycline because it has worked for him in the past very well with "odd" cases. He thinks it's worth a try"
Vet had suggested since shes loosing protien through her gut to put her on the tetrecycline for a few days.

this was the urine test results
Urobilinogan - normal
Glucose - Negative
Ketone - Neg
Biliruben - +++
Protein - +30
Nitrate - Positive
Leukocetes - Neg
Blood - Neg
PH - 9
Specific Gravity - 1.015


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

I know it may be a lot of reading but Id rather ask for her than my own as Gretta is much loved buy us all. I love my goats and sad if something would happen to any of them but this would be devastating to her owner to loose her and not understand st least why.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

To find out what her mineral levels are she needs to have a blood trace mineral test done. It will definately tell if she has a mineral over dose. Remember though that is just for the day and time it is drawn and the stoppers do cause some depletion to certain minerals. Zinc I believe is one. I would also stop B-Complex with the liver/kidney issues, although it leaves the system...while it is in there it is strong on the kidneys and liver. Find a more natural way of getting her to ingest B's. JMO
Tam


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Caprine Beings said:


> To find out what her mineral levels are she needs to have a blood trace mineral test done. It will definately tell if she has a mineral over dose. Remember though that is just for the day and time it is drawn and the stoppers do cause some depletion to certain minerals. Zinc I believe is one. I would also stop B-Complex with the liver/kidney issues, although it leaves the system...while it is in there it is strong on the kidneys and liver. Find a more natural way of getting her to ingest B's. JMO
> Tam


This is Michele...If it were mineral poisoning would there be anything that could be done besides taking minerals away. She is too far gone to wait for a mineral test. She is acting neurological tonight. Like she is frantic for something but she doesn't know what.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

Have you considered comfort foods like bottle fed goats milk and wrapping the goat in a coat? What little I know may not be helpful but seems that basic comforting should always be helpful to settle a goat down and allow them to find their own strength. Sickly animals also sometimes benefit from basic subcutaneous fluids IV under their skin - might help to warm it to match body temp first. Those are just shots in the dark. Good luck!


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Symptoms of severe selenium toxicity include impaired vision and staggering ("blind staggers"), rear legs that won't support the body, then muscle weakness in the front legs and progressive weight loss. Each of these symptoms can also be symptoms of other illnesses, so the producer should determine his area's selenium conditions in advance to avoid an incorrect diagnosis.

http://www.jackmauldin.com/health/selenium.htm


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

She may very well be ketotic. That would fit an overweight doe. Acidosis and then ketosis is possible. You do need to act and although fecals need to be done and mineral levels can be helpful, you are losing precious time: in this case you have to treat the ketosis first as that will kill her. 

Give IV fluids immediately (not calcium! that's a mistake often made) in addition to oral electrolytes (I use 'High Energy' a calf electrolyte with probiotics) which I give to the doe with a pop bottle with a cut off calf nipple, so the doe drinks and swallows herself. I prefer that over 'forced' drenching. You don't have much time once you are in the state of ketosis you are describing (acting frantic, 'neurological). I do usually add some baking soda to the electrolytes to balance rumen PH in case of an acidic rumen.

What is in that soup/mash you are describing? And you are mentioning a cookie: stick with animal-stuff for this animal, she is not human and should not be getting people-food. Too much of the wrong feed (or too much grain, even if it's the 'right' feed) can make the rumen go haywire and that can kill an animal.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Caprine Beings said:


> And what is the status on the selenium in her area?


Would be why I stated this earlier Rose.

I am in agreeance with Marion that sub-Q fliuds would not hurt at all. Many things have been tried and this is a repeat of her sympyoms earlier on. Did Thiamin do any good at all? Ot the B-complex? If you have other goats I would find one that has healthy rumen and steal their cud. Its another long shot.
Tam


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Certainly alot has been done to this goat to disturb the microbes of the rumen. Hypothermia fits with acidosis. Pale eyelids go along with hypothermia. When the rumen shuts down, the goat dies. I don't have any first hand knowledge for treating it - I believe there is info on here somewhere. Prevention is strict attention to diet (attention to calcium phosphorus ratio - ie more alfalfa, less grain), using antibiotics with caution, fecaling and maintaining low worm burdens (raising kids on prevention).


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

It's really too late for prevention, but DO make a new plan on how to feed your goats after you're through this. Right now emergency care: IV fluids to get energy balance back up and baking soda to balance rumen PH to get her back to eating goat feed again. Keep her on good (alfalfa or grass) hay only when she's feeling better. Grain and sweey stuff (molasses, cookies) can easily get her back over the edge and into this state again.

How is she doing? I hope she's improving,

Marion


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Also, just a tip: I understand this problem was first posted on another site, and I don't know that site, but I do know there's a lot of great specific goat information on this forum. Check out the Goatkeeping 101 area: you'll find everything you need to get a good start on goat health care (prevention, too!) and nutrition. Good luck!


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Michele here... She seems the same as last night. This morning She ate some alfalfa and she even ate some oats. Her movements are somewhat jerky and swaying. Her eyes seem very wide open. She still seems like a strong wind could blow her over. But she is out..laying in the grass, chewing her cud, watching Frankie graze. Flossie is standing next to her like a body guard. Both Frankie and Flossie are intent on protecting her.
So eating and chewing cud are all good things. Being able to walk is a good thing too. It's just that there is no improvement.

I just talked to the vet. He is thrilled that she is eating and chewing cud. He wants to keep her on the Tetracycline. He feels it is a systemic condition and the Tetracycline is best for treating that. He said the Neomycin would only treat the gut and he wants to cover all bases with the Tetra in case it's in her spinal cord. Her says that recovery will take a long time and to give the Tetracycline 2 weeks and then do bloodwork again to see where she is at.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Since everyone has their opinions, I am going with walking pneumonia without abnormal temperature and ear infection. Is one ear hotter than the other? This happened with my Nigerian. Nuflor isn't working which is no surprise after reading other threads. In the past there has been pale eyelids so parasite overload happened. 
I like giving yogurt for a thickening agent mixed with probios and a B vitamin crushed, and mixed in it, with vitamin C, E also. I add a little zinc also. Given with a dosing syringe.

I really don't think it is selenium since the other goats are fine and she has lived in the area for awhile with no problem with her goats. Now suddenly Gretta has a problem, so unrelated.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

What caused the anemia...the rest is simply a doe going down hill to death because the cause of the anemia was never addressed correctly. IF it was she would not be relapsing like this. I don't have time to read the whole thing on HT, but their cures usually kill the liver and rarely treat the original disease process. Vicki


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Michele here...From what I understand the anemia is caused by the loss of protein. The loss of protein was caused by a bacteria that went systemic.


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## mammabooh (Sep 15, 2011)

Vicki, what do you mean when you say "their cures usually kill the liver"? I'm a novice and am intrigued.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

I'm sorry, I didn't read the whole thing... I started to, but that's a lot of reading. So maybe this was already covered, and if so I apologize but I just hope this might help someone. 

I had an animal do this sort of thing. She finally died despite all my efforts to save her so I had a necropsy done, and it was liver flukes. That just never occurred to me because where I lived at the time we were not supposed to have them. Well I guess we did. The hard thing was, it destroyed her liver... all that was left of her liver was a small hard lump about the size of a marble, and even though we did blood tests, the vet told me once the liver is *that* destroyed, the body starts to compensate and so the levels will look OK. Basically there was no way we could figure out what it was, despite all the tests we did. I now make *CERTAIN* everything gets a flukicide at least once a year, usually twice a year.

This kind of goes along with Vicki, if the liver goes you're in trouble.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Michele here...Her liver numbers came out normal in the blood test. She has been dewormed with Valbazen which gets liver flukes.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

As far as rumen care, unless the rumen is cranking (listen, there should be noises with a big roll over every 10 seconds or so (been a while and I can't remember exactly how many seconds, but listen to the other goats to get a baseline-- rumen is on the left side), give cud transfers. They can make a world of difference. I had to give a doe 8 of them over a two or three days period (original sickness was gangrene mastitis, which her lack of appetite and nearly dying caused her rumen to try to pretty much shut down, no sounds) but she finally caught fire after that last one and she lived and is doing great now.


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

Cannon_farms said:


> Michele here...Her liver numbers came out normal in the blood test. She has been dewormed with Valbazen which gets liver flukes.


How are you dosing? What amount and how often are you repeating? We have them bad in Oregon, so repeating 4x every ten days is what some goats are requiring. To some of the old timers out here, they think I am crazy, and they go one about their buisness watching their goats die, as they always have..poor animals..

I was wondering if the anemia has been remedied, or is being??


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

After the antibiotics are completed +72 hours you might consider introducing Kefirs/Yogurts. It is important to rebuild the stomachs preferred probiotics afterward or else like an empty petri dish it will become populated by neutral yeasts and more harmful bacterium instead of natures balanced mix of mostly good and miscellaneous (not always so good) other biotics.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

VictoriaK said:


> We have them bad in Oregon, so repeating 4x every ten days is what some goats are requiring. To some of the old timers out here, they think I am crazy, ...


VictoriaK Is that deworming? Are you talking about a single dose at 4X the recommended strength? You have concluded that so much deworming is really required? That is alarming and sounds like a process with the potential to maybe eventually create super-worms. Would you eventually go to 5X and every 9 days then 6X and 8 days? At some point sounds as if the cure/prevention could become part of the problem.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Ray, I believe she means dosing every 10 days, correct dosage, but over a 40 day period to ensure she has gotten all stages.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Cannon Farms here, 
I wanted to to thank you all for taking the time not only to help a lurker but to help some one who wasnt even a member here. I have learned a great deal from this site and thanks to the wonderful folks on here have saved a couple of my own goats. 
I have not heard much from Michele to know how Gretta is doing but hopefully one of us will update soon.
Thank you again...


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Is Valbazen the best for liver flukes? I thought one of the "Plus" products was better for that - Ivermectin Plus? (saw there is either a quest plus or a cydectin plus, not sure which brand)


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

informative said:


> VictoriaK said:
> 
> 
> > We have them bad in Oregon, so repeating 4x every ten days is what some goats are requiring. To some of the old timers out here, they think I am crazy, ...
> ...


Sorry I didn't clarify. 
Yes, for a severe case of liver flukes, or lung worms I have (although seldom) used the dose, at ten day intervals, over a 40 day period. It has not created a superworm to my knowledge, but it has killed of a worm load that woul dotherwise have continued thriving in a very sick animal. 
It has been our job as goat owners to think outside of the box as not doing so , and yes following the Veterinarians advise, only makes the goaties sicker. It really freaks some people out, but to me it's really sad to see the goats owned by people who have no faith in trying something new and different. One gal inparticular raves about how good my does look etc...but won't dare try different dosages from when she 1st had goats in 4h 30 years ago..kind of scarey..

SW Goats, 
Valbazen is used for liver fluke and lung worms(along with stomach~intestinal tapes) just as ivo plus is, but there is no milk withdrawl. The only drawback is you cannot use it on pg does, before 100 days bred.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Billie, so many times the cure kills the liver. The doe gets better, but then relapses because of the damage done to the liver by the meds used to cure her. We see this all the time, and in fact after a long drawn out session of so many opinions and lists of drugs and dosages, although it seems like something worked because she is better.....she dies from liver failure symptoms, or has several acute attacks and then finally succumbs. If no necropsy is performed than the blame goes to a drug not working or someones idea (even though they used 5 peoples ideas mixed together) failed. At necropsy this liver 'disease' is then the major diagnosis of what was wrong with her, when it was just the end result. 

It's why prevention is so key, if you can keep a goat from having parasite burdens her immunity can't control, if you can keep her immunity high(nutritional management) so 'itis' disease is kept at bay, if you can feed a goat, not like a hog, to keep rumen acidosis low, you then aren't giving meds to cure a problem we caused from the beginning with our missmanagement. Nobody likes to hear that, but it is our missmanagement that causes nearly all disease (not virus) in our goats, nearly all. So when someone is plagued with problems you can point to the nutritional or enviornmental problems that cause the problem in the goat. And even if it is just one goat in the herd, further questions reveal she is the oldest, the best milker, the doe pregnant with the most kids, or the low man of the totem pole....so although the management you choose keeps most of the goats alive in your herd, it can't keep the does on the list above alive because they need more. But when we do treat we have to have a very clear idea of how the drugs work that we are choosing to use, how much, how often, what route, because they do damage also. Vicki


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

Very well said, Vicki, it is nothing but frustrating to see, hear , try to help people with tmi...going from one information page to another, getting so many different dosages, causes, etc, that it cotradicts everything you know to be true...Although it's amazing the information out there these days, i appreciate going to people who I know have results that I want, and experience, not just heresay..


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

*****


> It's why prevention is so key, if you can keep a goat from having parasite burdens her immunity can't control, if you can keep her immunity high(nutritional management) so 'itis' disease is kept at bay, if you can feed a goat, not like a hog, to keep rumen acidosis low, you then aren't giving meds to cure a problem we caused from the beginning with our missmanagement. Nobody likes to hear that, but it is our missmanagement that causes nearly all disease (not virus) in our goats, nearly all. So when someone is plagued with problems you can point to the nutritional or environmental


 ...... VERY WELL SAID VICKI !!!!!!!!!!!*****

Healthy goats are results from a good nutritional program !!! Find a feeding plan that works and you will have very very little sickness . The plan has worked for years for my herd along with starting with tested CL and CAE disease free goats.
Has Gretta been tested for CAE and how old is Gretta ???
linda/Bella


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Michele here...I just got the results..Gretta has Johnes disease. I am devastated. Not only am I loosing her all my other goats probably have it too. This is the worst news I could have ever gotten. My goats are pets. They are my children. I have Gretta's twins that were born in 2008 and I just bought 2 minimancha bottle babies this past may. They ALL free range the property together. I would have never, ever brought the babies here if I had known. Now they will probably die of this horrible death too. I have gone from the terrible to the worse than terrible.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I don't know much about Johnes disease but I did google it and got some info. It appears that young kids are most at risk of contracting it through manure or milk from infected animals. It seems like there is plenty a person can do when Johnes shows up in a herd besides just putting everyone down, especially if they are just pets and are not expected to produce milk or make meat. Don't panic yet, google this disease until you become very familiar with it so you can make the best decisions for your herd. I read that it can be transmitted to humans and shows up in tissues of people with Chrones disease, but many doctors/researchers reject the idea that it was transferred from animal to human. 

One article says that in 68% of dairy herds in the US have some animals with Johnes...of course no one wants it and we have to try and eradicate it, but it's quite possible that not all the goats in your herd have it so don't despair just yet!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

What I learned at convention, is that goats don't shed hardly any Johnes when they are infected, unlike cattle, so there isn't a huge environmental contamination. They only put out like 1 organism per gram of feces, and cattle do something like 10's of thousands per gram, or maybe even more...I can't remember, but it's a lot. The person who gave this talk is actually researching Johne's in goats, I would contact him, he may have some info for you. He has helped a few herds with eliminating the disease. He works at the Caine Veterinary center in Nampa, ID and his name is Dr. Wayne Ayers.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And Johnnes positive, I bet if you copper bolused her and she lives through what is really wrong with her...that she would be negative. Johnnes in goats is very very rare. Even in cattle the only reliable test is performed at necropsy, so why goat folks believe this whole hype on Johnnes is beyond me. IF a diagnosis of blood or fecal was accurate, than the cattle guys would use it and they do not, they use necropsy. The amount of manure needed to pass johnnes would give such filthy conditions she was born in her barn, tht she likely would have succombed to ecoli or cocci as a goatling. Vicki


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## mammabooh (Sep 15, 2011)

So, Vicki, you are of the belief that the vet that diagnosed Gretta is full of it? How exactly would you advise Michelle to progress in treating Gretta?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry I don't do second hand, in fact we usually don't even allow this kind of post on the forum because second hand (and in this case unless you want to read volumes of links to another wall) you never get good information. Everyone knows they can email or call me, I am the easiest person to find. IF she believes her vet and this is Johnnes put her down. I barely have enough time to do the forum this time of year (I work everyday for a political party), I know that sounds harsh but being super busy, you have to ration your time, and my forum comes first. Vicki


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> And Johnnes positive, I bet if you copper bolused her and she lives through what is really wrong with her...that she would be negative. Johnnes in goats is very very rare. Even in cattle the only reliable test is performed at necropsy, so why goat folks believe this whole hype on Johnnes is beyond me. IF a diagnosis of blood or fecal was accurate, than the cattle guys would use it and they do not, they use necropsy. The amount of manure needed to pass johnnes would give such filthy conditions she was born in her barn, tht she likely would have succombed to ecoli or cocci as a goatling. Vicki


Vicki, I would love any suggestions This is a beloved pet goat. She has never had any health issues since I bought her in 2007. She has done well in the South Dakota extreme heat and blizzards. One tough cookie. Luckily I found HT goat forum days after I brought her home. You were on there then. I learned so much and truly believe that my goats have been fed nurtionally correct diets. They are the center of my universe in more ways than one. The problem is...blood tests revele She is loosing protein in the gut. She eats but has been slowly loosing weight since April. She has lost 30lbs and is at 57# last week. She is anemic. But no worm load.Her age is undetermined but guessed at 7-10 years old. She is fed good grass hay, Boss, oats, (very little amount...less than a handful) and gets plenty of pasture and browse. Her teeth are in good shape. Baking soda Right Now Onyx mineral 24/7 She is a pygmy pet that is not milking or bred. She is tested CL and CAE negative.She is copper bolused. I just received notice that she is positive for Johnes. I have her 2 babies who are going on 5 years old and 2 new bottle baby MiniManchas that I got in May that are 6 months old. They have all been together on the property. What would you do?


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Michell you need to email or call Vickie copy and paste what you just wrote if needed. I may have been resistant to some things Vicki has told me in the past but like I school child Ive hung my head and at some humble pie when I found out the hard way she was right. 

Vicki if you find time to read this I do greatly appreciate you allowing this from a not a highly active member and a non member to be cross posted, I hate feeling dumb founded especially when I know how much these goats mean to Michelle.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

The problem with diagnosing Johnes in goats is to get a real good diagnosis, you need a culture of the feces (which they will do at Caine), but how can you culture something that is only 1 tiny microscopic organism in a whole gram of fecal matter? The answer is, it's very very difficult. Dr. Ayers says it takes like a month to even grow the little suckers out too.

One thing that stuck in my mind, though, was that there is the possibility of goats contracting Johnes while still inside. If that is the case, then the environment of that specific goat would not need to be very contaminated at all (just its' mother). Also, some people that keep big mounds of manure, might just be piling years and years of Johnes up, so that would be source for environmental contamination.

What test did your vet run to diagnose this doe with Johnes? That may be an important piece of info as well.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

If she's 10 she might just be at the end of the line. Life expectancy is a bell curve. Some animals will die of natural causes earlier than the average. One of the best treatments I've found for a poor do-er is to stall the goat with a full hay feeder of alfalfa. At the health food store you can pick up nutritional yeast. It is full of B vitamins and goats love it. I've found it to help with anemia. These are suggestions for an animal that is eating and does not have diarrhea. Sorry, I've lost track of her progress, not sure if they apply or not.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Oh wow, I didn't read the stuff on the other forum, so didn't know she was 10! That's getting up there in age. Most animals that have Johnes will die much much younger than that, like 3 or 4 or so.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

At 10, and if you are going to believe the diagnosis of Johnnes, you put them down. You clean the area and hope that nobody else has been contaminated. At necropsy they can give you a real diagnosis, make sure it isn't a local vet but a lab that tests cattle for Johnnes.

My first thought with the protein loss in the gut was what is happening to my buck Pi (it was what A&M initially said and then we sent more blood to Langston), only it has turned out to be liver failure. Tons of info on the web about liver failure, fatty liver syndrome in ruminants. I have him bred to 2 does, one more to go and he will be put down. Usually this is cause from obesity, fat accumulates in the liver, in his case it was from being starved and then me feeding him. He never lost weight, he just simply never gained weight the year he has been here. He is also severely anemic and has been this whole year. He will be put down because there is no way he would make it through a winter here in our humidity, pneumonia is likely to kill him, as it is your doe with weight loss like she is having.

I am sure if everyone who has commented on the forum already, knew she was 10, they would amend their posts. It is the worst part of raising goats, putting down our beloved animals as they age. 10 isn't old, but it is for some bloodlines, others are still winning shows and appraising excellent at 12. Sorry. Vicki


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

One of the Vet's I used to work with told me all about false positives, and false positives with these (and other) tests. It is important to find out to kind of test that was ran, and as mentioned, is it reliable. Of course, there will be room for error in all cases, no test is 100% but seriously there are some tests that are only 65% accurate. Depending on the test ran on Greta, it may be quite significant to the situation with your other goats.


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

I should stay out of this but, Vicki's right, of course. The pygmy goats are fat. The mama donk is starting the fat hanging off one side of it's neck that is the early warning sign of founder. The pastures are too rich to run on for animals bred to desert climates. These animals didn't evolve to digest complex carbs properly.
The vet that I've known, loved, and trusted for many years won't even test goats for Johnnes. The test is so inaccurate for goats it's not even worth doing. At ten that's not what the goat has, it's simply not possible where she lives.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

It was a fecal PCR test


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

skeeter said:


> I should stay out of this but, Vicki's right, of course. The pygmy goats are fat. The mama donk is starting the fat hanging off one side of it's neck that is the early warning sign of founder. The pastures are too rich to run on for animals bred to desert climates. These animals didn't evolve to digest complex carbs properly.
> The vet that I've known, loved, and trusted for many years won't even test goats for Johnnes. The test is so inaccurate for goats it's not even worth doing. At ten that's not what the goat has, it's simply not possible where she lives.


Michele here...We saved this mama donk and have been working closely with the vet with her weight issues. She had the falling crest when we got her...it has improved with a better diet. Her feet were horrible and it took me 3 farriers and a vet to get them satisfactory....The equine forum on HT helped a ton! She was pregnant which made it more complicated. She is much better health wise since she came to live with us. And her baby is a spitfire! Yes indeed I have problems with overfed than under fed. But everyone gets exsercise every day with lots of running and playing and perusing the 10 acres daily. Plus walks through the grove with me and the dogs. Sometimes they follow on horse rides. I have kept them dry lotted for half days. THAT seems more unhealthy to me!


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

skeeter said:


> The pastures are too rich to run on for animals bred to desert climates.


Are you talking about different breeds of goat or different animals like camels as bred for desert climates?


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

If you dry lot half days, do it overnight. That's when the grass has the most sugar (it's been collecting all day from photosynthesis). By morning, the grass growing has used up sugar and it will be at it's lowest point. That is unless it's too cold at night for the grass to grow. Sunny days and cold nights can cause sugar to build day by day and become very very high. Why you get spring and fall founders. 

If this doe is overweight and 10 yrs old, also consider that high blood insulin/sugar is a major aging factor and she may be as old now at 10 as she would have been at 14 if she had never become overweight. Obesity is a symptom of a disease and that disease tends to wreck and age the body over time.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Vicki, have you thought at all about herbs to help his liver and see if he could be salvaged?


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