# Advice needed



## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

I have made a big decision. I am planning to drastically reduce my herd. I have many goats just not giving me enough milk. If it is costing me $3 a day in grain to feed them they need to give me at least 6 pounds of milk a day. Unless they are nursing kids then 3 pounds min. in the morning. Mostly because they are smaller than the others and have no milk in their bloodlines. I have about 6-8 does giving me well over 4 lbs each morning. It seems like I can make just as much money selling milk from 8 does and only feeding 8 does as I can selling a little bit more milk but feeding twice as many does. 
I do have some camps here in the summer that always buy goats and they prefer small ones. I do not have the market for pet goats. Between now and July should I switch their feed over to say an all stock at 10% and continue to get as much milk as they give or stop all grain and dry them up.
Your advice is much appreciated.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You can't sell a dry dairy goat here, if they aren't a baby, customers want to know why she is not in milk. So what is your market? Will they purchase dry does?

I can't believe with all of the back to the land movement across this country with impending talk of depression, not just recession that you can't sell your does as family milkers. You might want to put an ad in your largest city paper near you and see if anyone bites. A tame, milkstand ready doe, especially one who is being used for exactly what they want, perhaps do up a brochure for them, and send them here...tons of help with their first goat project...that sells goats. Then you could sell them now. Vicki


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

I do not feel comfortable selling them as milker if they are not giving much milk. I am usually happy with about a 1/2 gallon per goat, so these gals are not even up to my low standards.
I live in a strange area, close enough to NYC to get the customer base for raw milk but too close for there to be much interest in livestock.
My market for these gals would be camps and petting zoos so they do not need to be in milk but need to be tame and friendly, they are.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2008)

Steff.........It kinda sounds like your caught up somewhere in between the milk market, and the goat market.....and that you have a few goats that are caught up somewhere in between making production, and just not carrying their weight.
........so I suspect you are right that you would be making more with just the 8. Those 8 are making you a little money, and the rest are eating into those 8 Gal's profits.
The milk market is good down here, but the goat market still stinks around here locally......so I'm caught in the middle too it seems. I know of a pretty good registered nubi doe in milk, that went through the sell barn last week, and sold for a whopping $57.....and this was not your every day sell barn goat either.( and the dummy that sold her was offered $150 for her at his place the week before).
I'm not sure what some of us are gonna do if it stays like this, but we know that we are gonna have to market some kids if we continue to freshen these doe's. 
I'm keeping things very small around here for now, and only plan to freshen 4 doe's next Spring. This will at least help keep my feed bill small until things get better.
I've been watching these folks talk on here for a while now, and have come to the conclusion that the somewhere in between area is the worst place to be. You either carry enough goats that it pays enough to transport your product, or you carry just enough to provide product to the folks that come to you. Try to hang in there, as many of us are gonna have to learn how to manage our goats with a little sharper pencil....kinda like Vicki does every day of the year at her place. 

Best wishes, Whim


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

If they were mine and I was worried about finding them good homes I would make them into sausage. I will not send some animals to auction when I feel I owe them something better. It is much better for them and me to give them a bullet to the head while they are grazing. I know they were treated well and then they put healthy meat on my table.


Patty


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2008)

Patty.....you make a good point. I would rather eat them, than to see them drug around from pillar to post like some piece of trash.
Whim


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

I really put down on paper what it costs me per goat. That includes feed , hay, vet, minerals, supplements, gas to get feed and hay and everything else.
I do not pay any property taxes, rent or utilities.

example #1
A doe who milks well (8 lbs a day) and kids with twins
She costs $950.00 a year to keep
She has the potential(my milk market) to bring in $2400.00 a year plus $150.00 if both kids get sold.
$2400.00
+ 150.00
-------------
2500.00
-950.00
-----------
$1550.00 

potentially a profit of $1550.00
Now much of that milk is consumed by us or the pigs if it doesn't sell. Winter is slow here in the milk dept.
But she still has the potential. Not her fault if the milk does not sell.

example #2

A doe who milks only 4 lbs she usually only has a single kid
She has the potential to bring in $750.00 in milk plus one kid at $75.00
It still costs $950.00 a year.
So I loose $200.00 on each of these girls.

My biggest problem is in the spring , summer and fall i can sell around 15 gallon a day. But in the winter, when there is the most milk I sell hardly any. Also my kid market is easter. If They do not deliver end of Dec. or early Jan. I miss the market and have all these extra kids.
Next year it will be different as I am going to have the cheese license and can use all the extra milk for that.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It still costs $950.00 a year.
.................

I can't imagine this. I just did taxes and this would take care of two big nubian does and one kid I am wanting to keep out of one of them. And my girls are good milkers, in excellent shape and healthy. 

As you cull out these poor milkers, use the money to invest in a few great milkers, does that you can then resell their kids for the price of their keep for the year. Then look into your management program on how to trim down fluff. In most instances when I take that sharp pencil Whim was talking about to someones herd, they are feeding fluff. You add kid sales and more milk with purebred stock to your farm, even with ADGA fees, you would be further ahead the first year. Vicki


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

How I got to the 950.00
Feed costs $.23 a pound
I feed 2 lbs 2x a day
that's $1.00 - feed

Hay costs $3 a bale I feed 5 bales to 20 goats 
that's $ . 75 a day per goat

I added $1 a day for everything else, Milk filters, paper towels, meds, vet, fencing, worming, gas to get feed and hay. That does not include water, electric or property taxes.

$2.75 X 300 = $825.00
$1.75.00 X 65 = $113.50
Total = $938.50
close enough to $950.00

I do keep very careful records, when it comes to money.
In the past we had a few goats as a hobby it paid for itself and that was enough. Now trying to turn it into a business, I put it all down on paper.
Heck I use 1 roll of paper towels every single day out in the barn. It really adds up.
I do not have a market for kids as milker but I do have a growing market for kids as meat but only in the spring. This works out fine. Any kid will do it does not matter who the parents were. It does not matter what they look like. It does not matter what breed they are.
So last year I purchased a buck from some nice milkers. He sired a buck with one of my good milkers. So I am now keeping the two young bucks and getting rid of my older unknown origin buck.


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Stef you should not be keeping any bucklings from your breedings right now. You just do not have enough milk .

While some cross breds will milk very well after 2 out crosses {I think 1} you loose highbred vigor.

You should be using bucks bred for milk. You can even bred father to daughter from ones that milk well. 

You do not have to spend a fortune to get a good healthy milker . My girls all milk 1 gallon plus dry I spent 200.00 at most . I just got 2 bred does from really nice milk/show lines with lots of sg in there pedigrees they cost 350.00 each but remember they are bred to really good bucks.

Sell them eat them do whatever but get them out of your herd. Decide on which breed or 2 breeds you want .Buy the best buck you can afford. Maybe buy a doeling or 2.

Look around for bulk grain dealers and see if you can get better prices. Hay bought out of the field is cheaper than out of a barn . Look around now not in a month.

Patty


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## Sunny Daze (Jan 14, 2008)

Does hay get any cheaper than $3 a bale?? :biggrin


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep we pay 1.00 out of the field and even bought it out of barns for 1.00


Patty


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Selling a doe in milk, even if she is a poor milker for you, may be just what some other family wants. As long as you let them know up front what she's producing, why should you feel bad? Put a decent price on her that reflects that (1st) she's _in_ milk, and (2nd) that she's not pumping out a gallon. She may just make some small family a nice milker.


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

First off I do not live in an area where people want family milkers.
Second I do know of folks who sell hay off the field, their goats all died from listeria this past year, the hay in the field was moldy. Besides I do not have room to store more than a weeks worth. maybe a month certainly not 1500 bales.
I might be able to trim the everything else down to $ .50 a day per goat but to think that things don't pop up would not be realistic. That is from a business point of view.


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Buying hay off the field means picking it up the day it is made. It also can mean when its in the wagon and not yet in someones barn. If hay is rained on when baled its no good. We have left it in the field over night the bottom gets damp but you turn it let it dry for a few hours and you are good to go.

Living week to week or month to month buying hay would be scary for me. I would look into the cheapest way to get storage. It may cost up front but would put my mind at ease the rest of the year.


Patty


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

I do have storage, it is just 10 miles down the road at my friends house who grows the hay. It is my hay I store it there and pay for it as I pick it up. I cannot imagine any one being able to sell a bale of hay for $1 with the cast of fuel I am sure that will change quick.


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

It will probally be higher this year but maybe .50 cents. remeber I am almost in Canada. If fuel was not so high I would suggest you coming for a visit.

Have you consider the Vernon auction ? How about one of the ones empire runss ? i was at are small auction yesterday and a doe in milk brought 50.00 She was nothing to look at mix breed with horns and a small bag.

If there is any more holiday sales coming up that is were you should go. New Holland Pa brings the best prices around these parts. Nice ridse and then you can skip over to do some good eating and shopping in lancaster. It takes me 6 hours it should be less for you.

Patty


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

Don't forget to advertise on the internet that you have some milkers for sale. I have several times had people drive several hours to get a milker because no one in their area had one for sale or the ones that I had were cheaper then the ones in their area, even after adding the cost of gas. Just be up front about what they are milking. You might be suprised and you have nothing to lose. Well, just a little time answering emails. 
Theresa


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

WOW. $1 for a bale of hat? IMPOSSIBLE! Here in Virginia I paid a MINIMUM of $7.50 a bale for hay all winter long and am feeding 6 horses and 5 adult goats! Local hay was impossible to find due to the drought and so hay had to be brought into the area. I just bought some nice alfalfa for $9.50 for 55 pound bales. I also bought some bagged alfalfa for $16 a bag, with a weight of 50 pounds. My hay dealer says hay prices are going to go up this year, even without another drought due to the high price of diesel fuel and fertilizer (made from petroleum,,,,yuk.) I think we are all in for a severe belt tightening. On a positive note though, more people are thinking of growing their own food. I even heard radio programs urging people to do that. Goats are small animals well suited to family life and sustainable farming. Maybe we'll be able to find better markets through those folks, wanting to "get off the grid" and become more self-sufficient. One can always hope. 
Good luck. Anita


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

950.00 per goat per year? If our goats cost THAT much, we would have to sell them all ! WOW! We spent 150.00 per goat this past year, and decided that was WAY too much! (we were also wayy overfeeding grain, but did not realize it until fairly recently.) Ideally, our does will produce twins, and between their babies and the milk they produce, will pay for themselves, as well as a little extra. I cannot imagine spending an average of 950.00 per doe, each year! We also are limiting hay, now, as well.... Last year our goats did not have to leave the barn, but could stuff themselves on the hay that we put into the hayracks every morning and evening. Well, the weather is nice now... their huge pasture is growing very nicely, and so we are not putting hay out during the day...........and they all actually go OUT and GRAZE!!!!!!!! lol! It is almost amazing to see them!So, we are hoping, just by changing our hay habits, that maybe this year, making our own hay may be enough, and that we will not have to pay high prices during the winter to buy it, (as we did this past winter.) ! So far, our goats are doing great on this new plan... (tho they think they are terribly abused.. ) How DARE we make them get up, and go out to EAT! lol. All are milking as good as expected, and all of the fat ones are slimming down nicely!


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

I can skim that down to $750.00 per goat but that's it. I have taken into concideration every thing i spend on them but water and electric.
Paper towels cost me $350.00 a year alone.


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

Sally, 
since there is such a difference want to compare costs? Line by line. Let's see if I am over estimating or are you under estimating. Since we are in the same part of the country it will be interesting to see the cost difference region by region.
First off the alpines are the ones you are raising for milk correct? So let's figure on them alone.
Want to play?


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

I think adding a dollar a day to every goats keep is too much...I don't know.
My grain-now that I've switched to the less expensive stuff is $0.80 for 4 lbs. so a full lactation would cost $240
I have always figured a ton of hay, per goat, per year (thats 5-6lbs a day-and has ALWAYS been enough for us)..that expense can vary drastically. I get local hay that isn't real special but is usually under $100 a ton. when I've spent more its been for premo stuff that goes farther anyway. My $3 bales this last season were about 22 to the ton so thats less than $70 per goat per year! So I'm only at $310 and I always add $5 a month for worming and vaccines and so thats $370...even if I figure in some extra for milking supplies and more...your number seems crazy high. If I figured that much for my does...it would be almost $10,000 a year-more than our mortgage-lol! that is impossible...we are a single income family and I couldn't afford it!
If that is truly your cost than no wonder you are selling..Ouch!


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

I figured everything. Figuring on 20 adults. I am milking 12, 5 yet to deliver, one is old 2 bucks. I also have 10 kids but they are not eating too much yet.

Paper towels
wormer
milk tests
vaccines
minerals
supplements
My grain is at 23 cents per pound. 2 pounds(+ -) per goat per feeding=$1.00 a day 350 days thats $350
Hay is $3 a bale I go through 5 a day = $.75 a a day per goat 365 days thats $273.50
Already up to $623

I guess since I am legal and get inspected and milk gets tested I spend more on the extras. Must use dairy detergent, $50 a yr
Teat dip$35 a yr
paper towels $350 a yr.
Milk filters $15 yr
Yearly QMPS $200 yr
All that adds almost $25 a yr per goat

I have not even considered vet, meds, stuff like iodine, bedamine, selenium, minerals, nutra drench and all the other stuff in tha cabinet I replace yearly.
How about water I can't even imagine how many gallons I use just washing equipment and the floors daily. How about electric. I do not include them because they are on the same meter as the house, but I am still using plenty. That's the $1 a day for everything else.

How about listing all the things I did, if you use them and put a dollar amount on them. How much is it really costing you.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

I suppose since you are Legal, you Must use Paper towels. I use white cotton wash rags and wash them in bleach. they are so much cheaper like $ 4 a bundle of 18.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2008)

If you took into consideration _everything_ that you purchase to raise and breed goats most of us would be shocked. I don't think Steffb's numbers are out of line.

Oh, and $10,000 a year to raise goats? That would be a bargin in my herd.  :O

Sara


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Your hay useage seems high . Is that for bedding also ?


I use about 3 bales for 12 adults , 4 yearlings 2 bucks and 5 niggies. I feed 2 nd cut most of the time and they always have hay. Maybe improve your hay feeders for less waste ?

As for grain Have you looked into buying bulk raw grains ? If I bought blue seal or agway oats my feed would be very high . But I buy my corn , oats etc in 80-100 lbs bags from the feed mill.

Buying a pallet of feed is cheaper than per bag. How about asking about discounts for say 6 bags of minerals. You would be surprised the discounts you can get if you ask.


Patty


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

No not for bedding, oh I forgot that.
You feed 3 bales and have 12 adults, I feed 5 bales and have 20 adults, how is that high?


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm not trying to argue..I believe you..just surprised at the difference. I don't doubt I miss expenses and perhaps I should keep better track-thats always on the "to do" list. 
However, I do know its well below your figure.. The amount of income we are living on just won't allow it-the money is not there. But we make it work.
My goats must be starving-lol! I feed 2/3 of a bale (bales are 75 lbs) to 11 adults!


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## kidsngarden (Oct 28, 2007)

Also as far as hay goes it really depends on where you are and how much browse there is. Right now and well into fall my goats don't eat a lot of hay if they are out in the woods on browse (actually right now they don't eat any hay cause they hate it - but that's a different thread! :crazy)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah Sara but look at the amounts of milk her goats give her per day and what she prices her kids at.

Sorry but the idea that you are feeding 20 goats 5 bales of hay each day...how much of that is waste? or that you spend $1 a day on paper towels. Or that I feed 2 pounds per milking to a doe who is milking 12 pounds and you feed 2 pounds a milking to a doe who is milking?.

Your also worming with a herbal worm that far exceeds the cost of wormer for even me down south...you worm even when your goats don't need it, I fecal.

But the offsets are that my goats browse from April through November and my hay bill is zero, and I don't feed hay that is wasteful like this anyway I feed alfalfa pellets, so my girls milk more, have more kids and look great which is PR. But the price of kid sales is huge on the bottom line, which even in the dairy although we milked grades, they were experimentals registered with ADGA and tested.

All these costs are also not year round, lactations only run 10 months.

This is off your schedule F or what you are guestimating? I would expect it to be more expensive to raise stock down here than up there.Not the other way around. Vicki


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Patty13637 said:


> Your hay useage seems high . Is that for bedding also ?
> 
> I use about 3 bales for 12 adults , 4 yearlings 2 bucks and 5 niggies. I feed 2 nd cut most of the time and they always have hay. Maybe improve your hay feeders for less waste ?
> 
> ...


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes I spend $1 on paper towels.
I am usually milking year round, sometimes 5 sometimes 20 let settle on 12.

I wash my hands before each goat i milk.
I dry my hands before each goat.
I wash each udder and dry .
I dry off teat dip on each goat.
Thats 12 hand washings-2 towels 
12 udder washings- 2 towels
12 dryings -1 towels
2x a day
how many towels does that make?
How many towels in a roll/
How much does a roll cost?

I also feed my doe 2 pounds of grain per feeding and many of them are giving 12 pounds. Thats why I wish to get rid of the rest.

I crunched the numbers on the chemical wormer and the herbal and it is exactly the same cost for me.

My goats do browse but they still get alot of hay, I do not feed alfalfa or forage extenders like some of you.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I spend right at $80 to $100 a week on 35 goats using alfalfa pellets and grain have never counted in any meds or wormers. towels etc. just keep track of my feed costs. my goats for the most part are dry lotted so no browse except the coastal burmuda in the pens.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I have about 6-8 does giving me well over 4 lbs each morning. It seems like I can make just as much money selling milk from 8 does and only feeding 8 does as I can selling a little bit more milk but feeding twice as many does. 
...............................................

My point is you dont' have to reinvent the wheel here. If you kept your best milkers, fed them alfalfa they would give you more milk, less cost. Feeding anything other than those 6 to 8 does who don't give you at least 4 pounds a milking is killing your bottom line. No way is feeding monthly a herbal wormer the same cost, especially to the does health, the same as buying wormer...because you likely would only use the wormer 1 or twice a year in your climate. On a better diet of calcium rich alfalfa, and getting their protien from alfalfa they would also be healthier and need little to no worming. You worm monthly, I worm 3 times a year and I live in worm heaven...how doe sthat make yours cheaper or even the same cost?

If you took your best milkers and change them to purebred, you costs would go down because the sale of one good kid would pay the does expenses for the year. You wouldn't have to sell a whole litter of kids to...well you know.

So you are a grade A dairy?

Vicki


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

I am not sure if NY has grade system for raw milk but I can sell raw milk , I am inspected monthly by the Dept of Agr. I do not know if that is classified as Grade A.

Well s far as the kids go I like selling most of them, otherwise I am over run with kids. I am not going to sell off all my girls and replace them. I am not even going to go out and buy any does purebred or not. I will breed the ones I have but be much more selective about who I keep.

Sondra,
Curious as to how much grain do you feed each doe and what does that grain and Pellet cost per pound.
I spend $80 a week on grain and $100 a week on hay. Are those milkers?


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