# curd cutting and holey cheddar



## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

I just opened a 2 month old cheddar (I can't stand the wait!!!!) and it was really holey, looks like miniature swiss holes. Now I know I don't get me curds as small as they say to in the book - is that the problem??
So cutting the curds - how do I get them as small as the recipe says to?? do I stir them and cut them as I go with the ladel? It keeps saying to be gentle so I try to do that, what is the balance? I normally cut with a knife and then stir with the ladle. But I don't stand there stirring for ages - am I not stirring long enough?
thank you!!!


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Any way you could post a pic? Could be contamination (not necessarily bad, could just be a lactic bacteria that produces CO2), or could be mechanical openings from not pressing enough. Are the holes regular or round on the edges?

When you cut, the initial cut needs to get all the curds roughly the same size. If a knife doesn't work, try using a whisk gently and turning it in the curd. And then when you stir, if you find some big pieces, cut them with the ladle. Uneven size curds result in moisture gradients in the cheese, which makes for uneven salt intake and ripening. If the curd is so weak that it shatters when you stir, let it sit for 10-15 minutes to firm up before you stir. And try using some calcium chloride. Even for an initial set, the curd shouldn't be so weak as to shatter completely.

You do need to keep stirring, perhaps not constantly but enough so the curds do not mat together until the very end when it's time to drain the whey. If they mat together too early before they finished releasing whey, the whey will keep running off and your final moisture in the cheese will be higher.


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## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

this is what it looks like...

usually I press for about 1 hr at 10-15lbs, turn over press 2 hrs at 15-20lbs, redress and flip, press 12 hrs (about) at 30lbs.

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Yep, those are not mechanical openings. You have classic late blowing in the cheese where CO2 is produced after pressing by bacteria. Raw milk? How does it taste? If a little like a swiss, then it's propionic that's making the holes. Did the cheese balloon at all after you took it out of the press?


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## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

yes, I always use raw milk... tastes fine, not really tasty like I prefer a cheddr, I was actually thinking about rewaxing it and aging it some more - not a good idea???? 
I've never made swiss (on purpose  ) and not sure about the flavor - I just bought propionic but haven't tried it yet. 
I didn't notice any ballooning - but I am such a newbie at this there's an awful lot to learn


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

You can rewax and age more, sure. Try aging half of it and see where it is in another 3-6 months. Generally with late gas formation, the flavor doesn't improve very much, but it depends on what the contaminant was.

Hard for me to say what the bacteria is without tasting or culturing. If it didn't swell, it's not propionic. If it didn't form early on, it's not a coli-type bacteria. Could be clostridia, or maybe even yeast. Any off flavors? 

It's part of the risk of raw milk. Commercially, some producers will add secondary bacteria that help control late gas formation, or lysozyme, which kills gas-forming bacteria.


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

Looks like a yeast which means you need to control your cheese and cheese-making environment better, but again without a lab culture you will not know. Pav is correct, the flavor probably not improve with more aging. Your cheese-making room could be too warm and certainly right now, if your are working in a non-air conditioned space, you probably won't be having much luck with you cheese-making. Raw milk is wonderful for cheese-making, but because it is raw, it is all the more important that you control your environment and keep it cool and clean to lower the existing levels of unwanted bacteria and airborn yeasts. Keep trying, you'll get it.


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## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

Hmmm, yep it is warm in here - we have a window unit in the kitchen/living area but it is still a lot warmer than most places  Am I better to freeze a bunch of milk and do more in the winter? Do I have to add calcium chloride then? 
And yes I have plenty of yeasts flying around as I am into sourdough breads and lacto-fermented veges - maybe I'll have to convert hubby's workshop into a cheese room 
Jennifer I was talking to someone who had visited you and it reminded me I was trying to get down there - maybe I'll have to wait until the new calf is born though  It's still on my list though!


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

CaCl2 does help when using frozen milk. And yeah, sounds like there was something airborne that colonized the cheese. For raw milk especially, it's like Jennifer said, cleanliness is a must.


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## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

I just read an article about collecting wild yeasts for bread making. It said if you are near a bakery or brewery, it is easy to collect some of their yeast, just by opening a window, and letting them colonize your flour and water mix.

Hmm, I also bake breads, will I run into lots of yeast problems, from the air?
I have a/c but, if you can catch yeasts from your neighborhood, how can I get all yeasts off of everything in the house and the air? Clean counters, and dishes, just might not get it, or do I just learn a way to work with the yeasts that are naturally present, like they do with certain caves affecting cheeses?

I can just see, grandchild running through the house and stirring up yeasts that are on the furniture, carpet etc. Hmm?


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

That's why there are cheese rooms.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

One of my cheese books says *not* to make bread and cheese in the same room on the same day.


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## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

Does that include drying it in the same room? (like when I take it out of the mod and dry for 3 days or whatever)


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## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

I have a pantry, that I am thinking might be the cheese room. Just super clean it, floor to ceiling, and then make sure to keep the door closed when baking bread, or when cheese is in there drying, will that work?


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

kuwaha said:


> Does that include drying it in the same room? (like when I take it out of the mod and dry for 3 days or whatever)


They're separate issues. One is milk contamination, which creates off flavors or gas formation in the cheese, and the other is about rind management. Yeasts and molds will colonize the rind, and often that's desirable, but they can't be the wrong kind of mold.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I am glad you posted about this, Karen. This is the same thing that happened with my monterey jack. In fact, it has happened with all the cheese i have made since then. The round of cheese swells and when you open it there are holes like swiss. the flavor isn't bad or anything but it doesn't taste like jack cheese.


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## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

Well thank you all for the advise - I shall have to think carefully about all the cheese and bread and lactofermented veges... scheduling


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

It's all the the timing and temperature. I have stopped making chevre until the weather cools down, it gets contaminated too easily and my cheese room is staying too warm 77 at midnight and while pasteurizing up to 88, way too warm and it takes too long for the room to cool. (my electric bill for the dairy was around $300 this month! and most was the A/C for the cheese room. Running non-stop). At least I know it will end eventually. The cheeses that culture and get into the press within a short period of time, like feta or havarti/cheddar are fine, so that is what I am making until the heat breaks. I have also re-arranged the cheese room to allow a freer movement of the cool air from the A/C to circulate to the far end with no obstacles. It is a cheese-maker's dilemma; air-borne yeast and bacteria when you don't want them. 

Some cheese-maker's make their cheese during the late night-time hours when it is so hot, but my schedule does not allow me to do that. Anyway, it WILL get better and it WILL eventually rain!


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