# Free choice WARM milk - another idea



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

So, here is something I have stared at for a while --

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e076a7-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5&gas=pigsaver

I wonder how this would work on kids? I mean, basically the same idea as having them dam-raised right? Free choice warm milk.

Thoughts?


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## LaManchaLady (Feb 5, 2011)

Im not sure. But it looks really neat and looks like it would be a good investment if it worked


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Hi Tracy, happy new year. Ive been working with new born ruminant animals for many years now, mainly calves. What we are talking here is an AD LIB system, which is by far, apart from mum feeding child, the best way to go. But, it comes down mostly to economics, I feed my goat kids on milk replacer, if I feed my kids, on a bottle system, according to the manufactures instructions, I can wean them at 8 weeks , using 6.3 kg milk replacer per kid. If I use the manufactures instructions for ad lib feeding, they will get to weaning weight before 8 weeks, BUT, I will use 18 kg milk replacer per kid. Also using a heating system to feed, ad lib, there is a high risk, without strict sterizilation methods, EVERYDAY! of scours, due to bacteria loving warm milk. Bloat is also a major risk when feeding ad lib milk replacer, warm, as the kids may well over feed. Hygene, scours and bloat can be kept more under control, if you feed the milk cold, using lamb feeding, buckets. Firstly they are cheaper to buy,by feeding cold milk, the bacteria levels are kept lower, in your feeding system, so less scours ( with proper hygene ) kids will drink cold milk slower, reducing bloat problems. This is of course, if you feed milk replacer to you kids if you dont and you want an ad lib system leave them on mum. 
hope this helps, feel free to tax my brain more if you need more info Quentin


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Hmm, thanks for the thoughts, Quentin!

Well, I never feed replacer, only pasteurized goat milk, so cost really isn't an issue.....I always have more milk than I can feed. The bacteria issue....now that is something to think hard on....

Do you think the kids are as apt to overfeed on warm milk if it is offered free choice immediately right after colostrum?


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I would think that warm free choice would get nasty. I even put yogurt in my lambar. In a couple hours of 'warm', I'd just have a lambar full of yogurt. Even without it, I would think in a few hours that milk would get icky-thick or separate. 

I've been having the same debate with myself recently, thinking about upcoming kidding season. I would LOVE to set up for free choice milk....but I gotta get my brain past giving them little babies cold milk. :/


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

It'd probably be May here before I'd have to worry about the environment being too warm <g> We're still in the 20's here by the end of May at times.

I don't really like the cold milk idea myself, Denise -- we get as low as -50 here, and I don't like to watch them spend calories shivering. We have always fed milk warm as long as we feed it -- often into August/Sept. My kids are outside in pens when it is still below zero.

I dunno -- I have good growth and hearty kids, so maybe I shouldn't worry about all this, but I like to think it over every year


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Adding yogurt should curtain worries about bad bacterial growth. It may want to be funky but it will be "good funk" lol. I feed warm milk when it's cold/cool, but once it's hot out, I feel ok about feeding cold. Seems like it would be nice to have cold milk when it's 90-100 degrees.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

It is as you all say a matter of choice feeding warm or cold milk, but the ease of cleaning is the out weighing factor in my mind. Also its a time thing, I am used to working on a large scale, so I suppose my mind is thinking that everybody is working on a large scale, which of course not all of you are. You have to transition from warm to cold milk, in a few feedings to get the little ones used to it, but after that they will be fine, and less prone to health problems. When I worked in Israel, I went on many courses, learning about the care of young ruminants, and 1 piece of information I gleaned is that, if animals have the scours at a young age it makes them prone to fertility problems when they get to maturity. So as the youngstock are our future the greatest care should be taken to feed and look after them correctly, the investment will pay back big dividends later down the line.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Having dam raised for five years, I would point out that dam raising is *not* free choice. Mama controls how long and how often the kids are allowed to nurse by walking off and laying down. (She should not be in such close confinement that she does not have freedom to get away from the kids.) Plus dairy folks who dam raise separate the kids from mom for as much as 12 hours at a time. For bottle-feeding, I see nothing wrong with controlled feedings.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Angie-one of the reasons for feeding free-choice to the kids when bottle feeding (or really, lambar feeding is more what we are talking about) is to make it less labor intensive. That way, you can go out with a full lambar a couple times a day instead of several times to feed the babies. If you limit feed them, you have to go out many more times. Also, if they have milk available all the time, the theory is that they won't gorge themselves on milk all at once and get bloated. Smaller, more frequent meals is the goal. I don't think the system would work with warm milk, because one of the purposes of the cold milk is to encourage them to eat less at a time, more often.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

When I bottle feed, I control feed. By a week old they are usually at 3X a day feedings, and it isn't much longer until they are on 2X a day feedings. Once they get to 2X a day, the amount is restricted at a set point. For minis, I restrict them to 24 oz per feeding. I have seen growth rates comparable to dam raised kids with this system and have no issues with scours or bloating, so I don't really "get it" I guess. Actually, once the kids get to 2X a day feedings, they don't even want more feedings. My kids eat grain and hay quite early since they are with their moms. My only point is that a lambar with free acessible all the time - warm or cold, doesn't much resemble dam raising. Personally, I wouldn't want to set out more than they could consume in a short amount of time the way they do with bottle feeding, so warming it would be no problem. The idea of more frequent feedings is nice I guess, but in my mind unnecessary. And I'm curious if kids with free access to milk eat their solids as soon. it was my understanding that was necessary for good rumen development.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I personally wouldn't free choice feed my kids either warm or cold milk. When I was studying in college for my degree in food service management, we were told that foods held at temperatures over 40F and under 140F were breeding grounds for foodborne illnesses such as salmonella, staph, etc. that are also illnesses baby goats can get ill from. I give my goatlings all the milk they can consume in a reasonable amount of time, them pull and clean the lambar. My bottle raised kids grow as well as my dam raised ones.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

My kids grew well by only giving 2 feedings daily. I feed them all they wanted and then removed the lambar. I started them off at 3X a day for the first 2-3 weeks and went to 2 X a day feedings.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I've never fed with a lambar, but planning to this year. When I was in school I took a sheep production class and the bum lambs were raised with a lambar of cold milk, with a heat lamp on the other side of their pen to encourage them to take short drinks at a time. Usually, they were only bummers for a short amount of time though, until another ewe lambed with a single and they could graft the lamb to her.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

With it being cold here, all of the babies get warm milk in the lambar and they eat all they want at each feeding...as the temps warm up the milk cools off because during the summer months I have shows and I can't heat milk at the shows so they have to drink it cold. I keep them on the milk until 5+ months old....I've never tried the free choice milk but I usually leave the lambar at chore time while I do all the chores so it's there for the kids for about an hour or so. If did the free choice warm milk, that would work until it got too warm here...then I would have to worry about the milk going bad.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Hmmm I must be an odd duck here but they get all they want the first 24-48 hours after colostrum, settling in to 5 times a day for the first two weeks. Then to four times then to three and so on. By the time they are 3 months they get one lambar in the morning...but by then they are eating hay and some kibble. Like Tracy we are cold here but only until April...unless this year is different...I will not be feeding cold milk to babies. I think of it this way- a momma has milk at her body. So I want to mimmick that of the momma. Some folks may feed cold and some warm...I am doing it to replicate a dam as much as possible. 
Tam


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

We feed free choice in lambars as we have milk available. I no longer pasturize most of the time, so it gets fed as soon as it is milked. Before selling kids, I usually do not have enough milk to have 100% free choice. After they get their fill there is usually milk left over which is gone by the next feeding when the bucket is rinsed and refilled. No scours in 5 years except on one kid this year that I had a cocci problem with. 

I've found that as they get a little older, between feedings they forget there is milk in the lambar so it's wasted so I figure 1/2 gallon per kid twice a day and that's more than they can usually consume at one time. Weaning happens at 4-6 months.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I have seen the almost everything in lambar/bottle feeding techniques, and most of them work given the right genetics. I have seen Top Ten & Champion kids come from:
Using Raw or Pasteurized milk & even using some milk replacer
Feeding warm or cold milk
Free-feeding and controlled feedings
Weaning at 8, 10 or 12 weeks & weaning up to 7 months old
Feeding grain and not feeding grain
Cocci/worm prevention & none
The list goes on and on....I can give examples of herds that fit each of these examples. We each do what works best for us that meets our expectations for our herds. If it doesn't work, we change it.

Tracy- you have huge, growthy Alpine kids...stop worrying! :rofl


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yea but that worrying habit is likely why she has big growthy kids


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I don't know why, but I think the cold weather helps to grow kids as well. Perhaps the lack of parasites, which can also be attributed to the dry climate in Idaho (Tracy is definitely in a wetter spot than here though). And perhaps because really good hay grows here too.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

We note that too Nancy about cool weather growth and I think it is both a lack of challenges from bacteria and parasites as well as just increased appetite from the cold and willingness to exercise. We had to weigh lesser kid growth against sitting in the barn in below freezing temps for kiddings and opted for late Feb early March this year. I know- and have records to show my earliest kids are my growthiest so I am hoping we hit a happy medium there.
Lee


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Tracy if you use kefir in with your milk you won't have the bacteria problem I did this on a regular basis but I did clean my buckets daily.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Question-does kefir transfer CAE virus if the kefir grains were put into positive milk sometime in their life?


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

https://www.biotic.com/httpsdoc/javaorderform.shtml

Here are some fancy-schmancy pretty expensive du-dads that feed warm milk free choice. I guess if you were constantly kidding/lambing, or raising kids/lambs, in a facility like they do with calves, it might be worth it to have.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

LOL, I know, Michelle ;-) Thanks. I do this every year.....start wondering (panicking LOL) about whether I could be doing it better somehow. And then I end up doing it the way I always have!

So I am curious about those that add keifer or yougurt into their lambars -- how much and how often - every bucket?

Thanks!


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Been reading with interest. The old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" comes to mind....LOL

Seriously, there are so many ways to get the job done. We measure and feed 3X/day and our kids grow up healthy and strong and right on par with the other kids in the show ring. Granted, they do a big growth spurt between 1 and 2 years of age (for 2nd freshening), but I would rather have a doe that mature into herself than fall apart after her 2nd freshening (and no, not saying folks with growthy kids have that problem, just have heard it on the grapevine).

Around here, FF never go Grand Champion. Tough for a 2 year old to go Grand - the competition is just too fierce, so don't want to push them just for "1st in their class". That said, I think that worming and especially cocci prevention are huge for a doe reaching their full genetic potential. Also, it is important to check with the breeders of your bloodlines to see how they manage their kids and different lines... One size does not fit all. 

I like the idea (and have done it) of adding yogurt to the milk - about 1 Tsp per bottle. Companeros/Redwood Hills does that and boy do they have the results to back it up. I like simple additons/changes while staying with what works for us.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Nancy keifer, yogurt or anything added to milk will not kill the CAE Virus. Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Oops, I think I may have phrased my question wrong. I was wondering, if kefir that had previously been incubated in CAE+ milk, could transfer the CAE virus when put into pasteurized milk.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> I like the idea (and have done it) of adding yogurt to the milk - about 1 Tsp per bottle. Companeros/Redwood Hills does that and boy do they have the results to back it up. I like simple additons/changes while staying with what works for us.


They add more than a Tsp per bottle equivalent though, plus they add the whey from their cheese making, and boy do they ever have the results!


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Ashley said:


> Yea but that worrying habit is likely why she has big growthy kids


 Exactly!!! Worry warts have nice goats. =)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Nancy if you want to use yogurt or kefier in your babies bottles or lambars if you don't test your does you have to use pasteurised milk, and yes kefier and yogurt both will work in pasteurised milk. Otherwise you are not using CAE prevention. Vicki


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

I too was curious about keifer.

Say you had some grains in a batch of CAE+ milk.... You use that up (humans, not for goat bottles), rinse your grains, then use pasteurized milk on those grains, or grains grown from the batch. Does CAE stick with the grains? Can it still have CAE in it to infect kids after being rinsed & a batch made with pasteurized milk?

If so, how do you get "clean" grains to grow keifer in for bottles? We had great luck using keifer in bottles for a sickly lil buckling my mom had.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I just rinse mine off well and simply put them into pasturised milk...I guess I would freak out some if I had positive milk on the property. Vicki


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Whey from cheese making can give very good results, body builders use whey protien suppliments. In my experience though, it does tend to induce scours in both young and old stock. I have read some articles on the subject, and they to agree, that the scour problems outweigh the benefits of feeding it, so only my lactating does get fed it, and only in small amounts.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> especially cocci prevention are huge for a doe reaching their full genetic potential


Certainly that is true here in the south. I have had the horror of seeing kids I sold that were raised without prevention as 2 year olds. Nightmare images. Sure would like to turn the clock back on that decision. I rarely sell kids that are not weaned and finished with cocci etc and so it was a shock to see what can happen to genetics I know well.

Lee


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Interesting on the scours, I wonder why? We just give our whey to the neighbor's pigs. His pigs and kitties love it! Our cats and dog get some too, that and the strip milk...my dog is always there for milking time, and the cats usually show up too!


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

When it comes to whey and scours, in my experience it is the volume of liquid that the goats consume, my goats go mad for it! They only have to see the bucket and they are behaving madly. They will try to climb over anything they can to get to it. So without a limit, they will drink till they pop, then scour badly, which is why I limit what I give to them.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Maybe when you mix whey with milk & kefir & yogurt, the beneficial bacteria prevent scours? One of these days I will get around to asking Trinity


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

buckrun said:


> > especially cocci prevention are huge for a doe reaching their full genetic potential
> 
> 
> Certainly that is true here in the south. I have had the horror of seeing kids I sold that were raised without prevention as 2 year olds. Nightmare images. Sure would like to turn the clock back on that decision. I rarely sell kids that are not weaned and finished with cocci etc and so it was a shock to see what can happen to genetics I know well.
> ...


I agree! Nightmarish sights! There is a "goat expert" here with a mix of Nubians & Alpines & she raises on milk replacer, weans by 8-9 weeks, no coccidia prevention (she feeds medicated feed & thinks thats good enough)..Her entire herd looks SAD, but this is also the woman who lectured me on feeding alfalfa to my goats because they would bloat & die...

She claims her lines are slow growing & won't breed until 3+ years old. My friend bought a kid from her at 6 weeks, we put it on milk, treated for coccidia, & the turn around she made was amazing.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Aja-Sammati said:


> Maybe when you mix whey with milk & kefir & yogurt, the beneficial bacteria prevent scours? One of these days I will get around to asking Trinity


You would think the whey would have that beneficial bacteria in it from the cheese culture as well though. It is probably as Quentin says, that they love it so much, they over consume.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I put yogurt in all lambars. Usually about 1/3 to 1/2 a quart per bucket (3-4 gal at the most). I'm gonna try adding whey to it this year too. I only have one doe that likes it and she takes a good size drink and is done--never over does it--and the dogs get the rest and they usually don't finish it.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Okay, I know this is an old thread, but I was trying to get info on kefir, as one of my milk customers just brought me some grains today (yay!). Anyway, wanted to mention, DO NOT add whey to your lambar bucket of milk! LOL. I found out this spring that that makes cheese, haha. If you want to feed whey to the kids, put it in a separate lambar, or maybe just in a bucket. I only have one kid that likes whey, but maybe they all would if I got them used to the taste by giving it in their lambar.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Whenever I make cheese the kids gets the whey mixed in with their milk, which they hopefully drink all of by the next feeding. They all like it just fine. Especially when hungry. Never a single problem with feeding it to older kids and I don't have to feel guilty about taking their milk to make cheese...course, since most of them are 5+ months old now, I really don't feel guilty anyway...LOL. But yep, it'll make curdled milk eventually.


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