# CAE advice needed



## jenngerber (Mar 24, 2013)

So, I saw the previous thread on this, but it's kind of old, so I'm starting a new one. Three years ago, as an ignorant rookie, I bought 4 Nubians from the goat equivalent of a puppy mill. After years of "on-the-job" training and reading, I now know about CAE. Alas, too little, too late. All 5 of my girls are pregnant, and all 5 are CAE positive (just got the results yesterday). Only one is showing symptoms. 

So, what are my options? Obviously, I will pull all the kids at birth and bottle feed them. But do i have to put everybody down even if there are no symptoms? My husband and I do not agree on the course of action here...he looks at this as an economic decision...so OF COURSE we put them all down and start over. But I have some emotional investment in these girls, who have been feeding MY family for a year now. 

Then there is the awful guilt I feel knowing that I sold CAE infected animals to other people last year. Yeah, I didn't know, but I just contributed to the problem. Ugh. Help? Ideas?


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

You can feed the babies store bought Vit D milk. You will have to find an alternate route for colostrum. 

You can of course keep your does. They are all positive so you would not need to separate them out and do the rigorous prevention that those who have negative animals would have to do. You may find this to be your best economic solution. Rest assured though you will probably have more symptoms and that can be an economic burden too. Pull the babies, induce the does when you know it is safe. Make certain on your due dates and never let the does touch them. 
On the animals you have sold, that is up to you. You could replace the animals you have sold with prevention babies. You could be honest with the people you sold to.. But ultimately it is up to you on how you treat this matter.

Tam


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## Blackbird (Jan 11, 2013)

What Tam said.. Basically it depends on how much work you are willing to do.
Do you have another facility where you can house the negative kids separately? I find after a year of pulling kids, pasteurizing milk daily for four to six months, repeated testing, and the stress of worrying that you made a mistake - most peope cull the positives quite quick. Those that don't, keep the cycle going because they get lazy and make mistakes.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

There are powdered colostrum products that you can use that are good and they will make it very easy to get those new babies started off right with no risk. There is no way i would risk heat treating colostrum from known positive dams since there are other options out there. 
As for the dams, I cannot imagine the work involved in maintaining two herds, one positive and one negative. Even from a sentimental prospective, not just financial. It hurts to cull, but the pain of seeing them develop symptoms is also painful and they say that once they start to show outward symptoms, they have been having unseen problems for a while. So it is not just about our feelings of not wanting to let them go, it is also about doing the right thing by the animals.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Yes, seems like alot of work to keep separate herds if you retain doe kids for next year.  

Other options would be: 
To sell all kids and just keep your positive does. But then you have to worry EVERY year about being there at you're does labor/delivery and catching kids.
Or keep the doe kids separate from the does during milking season so you have milk for the year, then cull the does as you dry them off without breeding. Keep the doe kids and breed them so you can start over with a clean herd.

So sorry about your test results.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

What you choose to do depends on the effort you want to put into goatkeeping. If you have the time and space, it is possible to run two herds. I have a friend who used to have a big commercial dairy and some of her does were CAE positive. When she quit the dairy business, she sold most of her goats to a commercial dairy that is apparantly more concerned about it's organic status than it's CAE status. She had several CAE positive does who were finished champions, so she decided to keep them in their own quarantine pen and pull all kids at birth. She fed the babies colostrum from her negative does and pasteurized all milk to 180F to be sure it was well above the temp needed to kill CAE. I had bought three Nubian does from her who tested positive, so they were sent to live in her positive pen. After a while, I culled two of the does I sent there and kept one there who had no symptoms. Her positive does were old and eventually died. I made the decision to cull the asymptomatic doe I was keeping there as I didn't feel right holding up a whole pen for that one doe. There was no way I would have the doe in milk in my herd because I allow some of my does to dam raise. I cared about the doe, but she wasn't worth the risk to me to have her in my doe pen and chance a kid latching onto her. I don't have alot of space and choose not to have two herds here.


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## Annie (Jun 10, 2012)

I started blindly too, knowing nothing about CAE. Once I learned about it, tested my herd, which at that point was a bunch of diff. breeds, most from auctions. Testing revealed several positives (took to livestock sales), kept a few who were dear to me. Hazel was one, I bought her at a sale as a tiny kid, unknowingly raised her with milk from a positive doe.
Eventually got into reg. Lamanchas, tried to remain CAE-free, hit a few obstacles, but am in the clear once again.
Hazel lived to 13, being CAE positive but never showing any symptoms. She had her own stall in the barn, but ran with the rest of the herd. She usually had buck kids which sold great as market kids/wethers (NEVER sold them as bucks or pets). 

It's a hard decision, IF you can grab up the newborns before the doe can even lick them, and raise them yourself, that's great. As for the positive mommas, if it was ME, I wouldn't put them down, but run them thru a sale barn. Some people don't care about CAE. If you just need a milker or two for your home, one of your does would be fine.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Two separate herds, blah blah blah is about sales, and marketing, do the big guys do it, no, they run positive and negative and still sell positive goats to new folks.

I agree with your husband, and when we started testing for CAE I purchased other peoples tested positive does for a song to fill my dairy. We NEVER had transmission from that point forward, even with our bucks pen breeding and hand breeding negative and positive does, never. Never after weekend show penned next to untested does, not even week long fairs.

The cae virus is fragile, transmission at your farm will be 99.9% from colostrum and the rest milk, blood etc. If you stop the transmission of positive colostrum you can clean your kid crop, and still keep your adult milkers, we all did this. But the difference was, when I milked my does and I heat treated my colostrum and I fed my own kids, I stopped the spread of CAE in my herd in 1 year. The difference, it was me, not my kids, not my husband, not folks who worked for me, nobody fed my kids, nobody heat treated the colostrum or pasteurized the milk but me, I know no mistakes were made, I still used two candy thermometers taped together to check temps on both until I quit heat treating and pasteurising long ago positive goats 2 years ago.

There is very little if any lateral transmission, perhaps and that would be in the .01%, a dog attack could give you actual lateral transmission of the virus from one blood stream to the other. But you aren't going to pass CAE casually, like CL.

So start a clean herd, you won't want to raise these kids with their dams anyway to make sure they don't nurse, but we know that the quarantine we did was stupid, there simply isn't a scenario that an adult doe is going to give anyoe else CAE if it's not a infant goatling nursing her.

Your CAE positive does can go on to live very healthy lives, I would put down symptomatic does, and yes you can butcher them.

Please dont' let the hype ruin your goating experience, and please do not sell these does to another person, butcher or put them down when you are done with them. Glean kids, super glue teats, know breeding dates and promise yourself, that if you go out to a doe already kidded, cleaned off and up and nursing that you will put down or butcher the kids...because sure they will test negative for awhile, sometimes, but you just perpetuate the inevitable heartbreak. Vicki


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

There is really no other way to do it other than cull out the positive does. When we were faced with this in the early 90's I put down CAE animals and have never looked back. I continued heat treating colostrum and pasteurizing milk to feed the babies from does who tested negative. 
While I know of people who kept separate herds in separate areas it is just so difficult to do. Having multiple people caring for the goats and feeding the kids gives too many opportunities for a mistake and one mistake is death for all the kids and all of your work useless. 
Catch the kids at birth and start over.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Good for you for testing and coming clean and asking how to proceed!

I agree with Vicki. I, too, started out with CAE positive does. However, I learned about CAE and got them tested. I got the unhappy results the day before one of them kidded. Pulled kids, used colostrum "supplement" instead of replacer because I didn't know the different (ugh). Still have one of those kids who has immune problems that I directly attribute to the supplement vs replacer. The next year, I used colostrum "replacer" and those kids grew just fine with no immune function problems. I did not trust myself with heat-treating colostrum. I tried and it turned to pudding. The first year, I was so paranoid, I didn't even use pasteurized goat milk. The second year, I did. While it's only been a couple of years now, all my goats are now CAE negative. I culled one doe because it showed up in her udder so she was useless. The other was my very first doe that milked so she is still here, but I do not breed her anymore. It is such a relief to not have to worry about birthing because of CAE+ goats. Sure, I still worry, I'm still checking at all hours of the night and day and I still pull kids. But it is an anticipation anxiety vs an end-of-the-world anxiety and there is a huge difference. For that reason alone, I will never breed a known CAE+ doe. The stress was unbelievable!

So do you have to put them all down? IMO, no. Do you need to keep them in separate pens? Again, IMO, no. But you MUST know due dates, you MUST pull kids, you MUST aggressively practice CAE prevention (milk) and you MUST test those kids each and every year so that you know you they are maintaining their negative status. That is, if you want to sell kids or does with a clean conscience. 

Good luck to you. A lot of us have been there. But you CAN get through it. And you will feel better for making the effort.


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## Blackbird (Jan 11, 2013)

This is where Vicki and I disagree. When I first tested I had all positives, except one. She was a really nice doe, but since she was the only negative, she stayed with the others. She remained negative for about a year before horizontal transmission. This was back on '08 when I first started pasteurizing, but I still felt that raw milk was important, no matter what amount, so I unknowingly infected the entire kid crop by feeding this doe's milk along with the pasteurized milk. Next test (about 6 months after last negative test) she was positive. Too late. I might be the very rare occurrence, but I doubt it. I've had other animals test negative via Elisa & PCR later turn up positive having been housed next to positive animals. 

For me, .1% can still be too much. Why do you think these big breeders and dairies that have had goats 10-20+ years and have been raising kids on prevention, still have positive animals? You can buy kids and test and they will be negative. But their kids grow and go right with the positive animals. When have you seen entire herd negative tests on these herds? You don't, because the cycle continues.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

*When I first tested I had all positives, except one. She was a really nice doe, but since she was the only negative, she stayed with the others. She remained negative for about a year before horizontal transmission.*

Or she could have been positive and not converted yet. Positive is not always positive and negative is not always negative. To me, the only way to be sure is to pull the kids yourself and raise on prevention. Or when buying, buy from someone you absolutely trust to also pull kids and raise on prevention. Why I would very rarely purchase outside does or doelings.


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## Blackbird (Jan 11, 2013)

It was a doe I purchased from what I know now is a negative herd that I trust. So very unlikely. Also does NOT explain the others I've had that were negative via ELISA & PCR, that later came positive (while adults). I must note that I had full sibs, variety of ages & from different farms present in the scenario. And some were and still are negative, PCR & ELISA. Horizontal transmission can and does happen.


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## jenngerber (Mar 24, 2013)

Thanks, guys, for your suggestions and sympathies. So one last question... where can I buy Colostrum replacer? I can't find any local CAE-free herds that have some to sell me, and I can only find "supplements" for sale. Ya'll are right...i just can't risk heat treated colostrum from my does just to find out in a year that my thermometer wasn't accurate or some such nonsense. 

I'm not going to try to run two herds, I just don't have the property set up for that. I'll sell all the babies, keep my two favs as milkers this year and mowers beyond that, and never breed them again. Then I'll put them down when they become symptomatic and start over at that point. 

It's very tempting to put the name out there of the lady who sold me the original girls, but I doubt she could read, much less know about CAE.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

You could keep milking your girls until it is no longer worth it. Some goats milk through very well, sometimes for years.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Merle, so you can show me a whole herd negative test on the doe you purchased in 09 to corroborate your story? No....and you had to have learned about the 'reputable' herd idea from this disaster...if you don't see a whole herd test, than you should assume all the goats are positive.

Your doe was always positive, if you had tested with a lab that showed you a titer you would have seen how close to positive she was when you first got her.

I would never not use CAE prevention on purchased goats kids. Now if I purchased from long tested negative herds, who whole herd test and post results, sell on contract...you betcha. Like Tim's herd, I consider Berri to be long negative, just like my does. Vicki


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

This product has been recommended by some of the people I respect the most on this forum. They say they have had very good results.

http://www.premier1supplies.com/detail.php?prod_id=59&cat_id=145

I keep several on hand when during kidding season, just in case. I haven't ever needed it, though, so can't give you first hand knowledge.

Good luck!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Blackberry Farm said:


> This product has been recommended by some of the people I respect the most on this forum. They say they have had very good results.
> 
> http://www.premier1supplies.com/detail.php?prod_id=59&cat_id=145
> 
> ...


That is a supplement, not a replacer. You need a replacer. There is a huge difference. When I go out to the barn, I'll look to see what brand I have.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

http://www.jefferspet.com/kids-choice-total/camid/liv/cp/AGI-K1/

Jennifer, I have not used this but have had some folks here use it and it worked on their kids. It is a replacer and supplement. I definately feel for you in your situation but I also applaud you of your decision to sell the babies and remain responsible for your does.
Tam


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

This is the one I used two years ago and really liked it: http://www.jefferspet.com/bovine-igg-immu-start-50-400-gm/camid/liv/cp/72-A1/

You can get it from Jeffers, Valley Vet, PBS Animal Health, etc.

I think I've used the one Tammy posted and I think it was harder to mix.


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## jenngerber (Mar 24, 2013)

Awesome, thanks guys... Cindy, how many bags will I need to feed 10-15 kids? The label implies one bag per animal, but that's for a cow. I would guess it's different for a goat.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Yes, Jennifer, it's not as much for a goat. The bag is out in the barn, but if I remember correctly, one bag may do a couple of goats for a couple of feedings. I'll look again tomorrow. In the meantime, I'll bet one of the sites, ie. Jeffers, Valley Vet, PBS Animal Health, has a link to the data and you'll know before I can get back with the info.

Just want to say, Good for You! for being responsible. You CAN beat this. I know, because I have. As have many others. You are doing the right thing and it is definitely worth it!


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## Blackbird (Jan 11, 2013)

Vicki, actually I can.

Both tests that were negative were with WADDL though.. I do think they can determine titer. Would they still have info from that far ago?

However, let's say she was. It doesn't explain the 7-8 others I had come up Pos in 2010. Speaking with Chuck, I believe he also suggested horizontal transmission. I can provide you with my test results if you would like. 

I have to ask, how long ago was the last time you had CAE? Ten years? A virus's job is to continue mutating. As I said once before, CAE is not crawling across yards, but I honestly question the lax viewpoint on horizontal transmission.


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