# unplanned breeding want to Lut Doe



## lovenmranch (Oct 25, 2007)

Hi everyone,

I had a doe get breed November 7th, but it wasnt "planned" I was going to leave her alone, but I really want her breed to a different buck. How hard is it on their systems to Lut them at 12 days Breed? and do I give the lut and put her in the correct buck? or do I have to wait until she cycles again?


The reason why I am asking, is because I can leave her bred to the buck she is currently breed to if its hard on them, but if its no big deal then I would like to breed her to something else : )

Thanks
Melissa


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> How hard is it on their systems to Lut them at 12 days Breed? and do I give the lut and put her in the correct buck? or do I have to wait until she cycles again?


To make sure you abort the doe....the lute needs to be given after day 11 anyway. I prefer to wait until day 14..but that's just me.
Give her the lute and since I hand breed, I wait until she comes back into heat and then put her with the buck. Some wait until her next natural cycle. 
Kaye


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

Is there any time it would be hard on the doe to abort her? I have heard a doe can get cystic and will not get pregnant after that. How often does this happen? Can this be prevented? Where do you all get lute?


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## lovenmranch (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks Kaye for the info.

Because I have a pea brain sometimes., I am going to type back to you what I understand hahaha

Give Lut on day 14 which in my case is the 21st. In my experience doe's normally cycle 24 to 48 hours after shot. which means breeding would take place 23rd Thur 24th? Does that sound correct, and if for some reason she didn't take on the 23 / 24th. obviously watch for her next heat cycle and breed again if she come back into season.

In your experience do they normally take the first time?

Thanks again
Melissa


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Is there any time it would be hard on the doe to abort her


If a doe is more than 30 days bred, I'd have to *strongly * consider aborting her. 


> I have heard a doe can get cystic and will not get pregnant after that.


Yea, I've *heard* that too, but it's not happened to any that I know of. If you overuse any hormone drugs you can run into repro problems. I think it's a drug that needs to be used with caution.


> Can this be prevented?


 :biggrin Make sure your bucks can't get out or you have them in the right pens. :biggrin
There is a drug that can be used on cystic does if used early.


> Where do you all get lute?


It's generally a Vet Rx item. Lutelyse or Estrumate
Kaye


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Melissa,
Yes, to your questions.

AND.....now, here's my warning with Lute...pregnant women and women exposed :blush use this drug with caution it will work on you,too. If there's any doubt...let the menfolk handle the drugs and give the shot.
Kaye


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

Thank you Kaye. There was a girl that bought a ND doe, that was exposed to a big boer buck. Nobody know when she was bred, never came back in heat. Obviously past 30 days bred. Would the recommendation always be in favor for the pregnancy? 
What are the risk to abort late? Can something be done, to abort her safely?


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

In that case....NO. I would terminate the preg. while the doe is still alive and the fetuses are able to pass through the pelvic area. Or definately plan on a C-Section.
Kaye


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

what is the difference between aborting her and using the lute? How do they do abort the fetuses?


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> what is the difference between aborting her and using the lute? How do they do abort the fetuses?


You are aborting the doe when you use the Lute.


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

I just used Lutalyse at the end of last month to abort six of my does. My first time use and impression: a pretty violent drug, use it only when you really have to. 

The doe that was furthest along was 7 weeks pregnant. Found twin fetuses, about the length of a stick of butter: perfectly formed little goats. And a small placenta. Had I known the fetuses would be so well developed, I would have dealt with a February birth. I didn't find any other fetal remains but did find an even smaller placenta.

The lochia of all afterward was pretty much like what you'd see on a full-term birth. 

I'm hand breeding today since two didn't take on their cycle that immediately followed the abortions.

Would follow Kaye's recommendation on trying to use before the doe is over 30 days.


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

So, it is a normal birth, but with no viable kids? I'm still wondering what the cons are to use Lutalyse after 30 days bred. I searched the internet a little bit and there are so many different opinions on this subject. I would be interested in the real fact.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> I'm still wondering what the cons are to use Lutalyse after 30 days bred.


Just like Tricia said...you get small fetuses, they have to pass through the cervix, the cervix has to open, thus more of a chance of a uterine infection, (I believe this has to do a lot with the *rumor about cystic and never breeding again*), retain parts of the placenta, and all the other problems dealt with in an abortion. The aborted does are not placed in kidding pens like a normal kidding, precautions are not taken, just a shot and turned back with the herd in most cases.

At less than 30 days...all you get is a small amount of liquid, quite like a heat discharge and/or a reabsorb. The cervix is not fully dilated thus the less chance of problems.

This is also NOT a time(over 30 days) I would rebreed on the lute heat. Give the cervix time to close back and uterus to return to normal before breeding on next natural heat.
Kaye


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Jo,
This is also why we warn about inducing labor WITHOUT a definate breeding date. You WILL get kids when you give lute to a bred doe in the last trimester. Without a definate breeding date (no guesses) you up the chances of getting premie kids.
Kaye


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Agree with Kaye. If you use Lutalyse over day 30, I'd place the doe in a clean kidding pen and care for as you would during a full-term birth. I also did not bred Greta on the Lute cycle: just seemed like her uterus needed a rest. 

I was amazed by the amount of discharges from all. The night after the injection, all were very subdued. The next night was absolutely wild. I couldn't get anyone in the barn let alone the night yard. They were all out in the wooded area surrounding the buck yard. Our adult wether who lives with the does (I know, he should be in the buck barn) was acting as sentinel along our back fence line that overlooks a small valley and is our corridor for the local wildlife. No moon, big wind. Checked on them several times during the night (my husband was away at a conference). It was the first time ever they've not been behind a 5' night fence. Perimeter fence is 48" with a top hot wire. Coyotes are pretty vocal this time of year. On the evening of Day 2, Greta went into a true labor and moaned and wheezed and moaned like I've never heard a doe do -- not at all like a kidding vocalization. At that point, her care switched to our standard pre-birth and birthing procedures.


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

That sounds so sad Tricia. Did you regret it? May i asked what was the reason to abort your does?
I think I will not recommend using it. I now fully understand the risk.
Thank you Kaye.


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Gabe -- The construction of our buck barn got delayed, and all our cross-fencing was devoted to keeping contractors and goats separated. We were planning on breeding half the herd as usual and for the usual timing -- mid-March to mid-April. Alas, our buckling bred everyone. In retrospect I would have aborted just the does that I was planning to milk through. I had dates and could have predicted February kiddings. I would use it again if I had to before day 30. Good lesson for me in terms of taking segregation seriously.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> I would use it again if I had to before day 30


.
As will I, when needed. It just needs to be used with caution and not haphazardly.
Thanks, Trisha for your details, maybe this will help someone else that has just been told," Oh, just lute her." Not taking into consideration when and how long she's been bred. 
Kaye


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Kaye -- I should've posted and got some info from you guys who've used it before. Also would have boosted my msg counte towards the big 50, eh?


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