# Coccidia, what is up with it?



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm rather irritated. Ok, I had two kids born 3 weeks ago today. They were born into a stall that had had no goats since February, it was a hot and very exceptionally dry summer. This pen was then swept out and bedded in straw before I put the dam in there to kid. She is 8.5 years old and babies got as much of her colostrum as they could stand to eat and they ate well. Yesterday, at 20 days old I noticed they didn't eat as much as usual. The coccidia were already bothering them. I don't get it. Of course they were scheduled for their baycox today, but I had actually hoped to wait a couple extra days to be sure there were all stages present, since it's November and all. No need I guess. This morning they didn't eat real great either (no diarrhea or teeth grinding or anything like that though). They got their dose and at their next meal ate much better. What gives? Why is the coccidia so bad? Ive had goats for 6 years now. Coccida has always been very mild here until last year. I actually had a buckling grinding his teeth off and on from the age of 2 weeks last year. Didn't know what it was, but he woudl grind his teeth sometimes when he ate but otherwise seemed fine. Well, when his coccidia round came along it went away! They just seem to be in turbo mode after many years (well past the honeymoon period though) of relative quiet. Indeed up until last year prevention seemed pretty optional. The ones I would keep I may not treat at all, and they were dam raised living with their mom in the pen that's had goats in it all this time, they would sail through and grow like weeds. I wish I could figure out what's changed. And how can a kid already have problems at 20 days like this, or the one last year, at two weeks? And those were kids born in, I think Feb or March, not summer kids either. Robust, growthy kids. My goats get copper bolused, eat like little princesses with a lot of fresh air and browse and I try to keep the pen clean as I can. Last summer it was just a dry hard dirt pad I kept raked and swept, in cold I keep it bedded with straw and have sand under it. Certainly it's not sterile but it's no mud hole either. Perhaps I have just acquired a new strain that is worse than whatever I had before?


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

I am often wondering about dosages, not to say that you haven't dosed correctly, but I am left to wonder if cocci get strengthened by folks that don't use proper doses to prevent, or treat. It only makes sense that it could and I am sure does happen. 

I assume these are goats you have had a long time? Not a dam that's new to you. 

Also assume you are using the right dose of baycox???

Most folks out here use sulfadimethoxine, and half of them don't get that
you can't just wave it in front of the babies nose to prevent.


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## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

Coccidia's always been an issue around me. I'm in NE Ohio, but if I don't dose the babies every 3 wks with 40% di-methox, then they'll be stunted. Occasionally, I even have an adult under stress that'll display symptoms. Our land is flat, wet, muddy, and the weather changes dramatically at the drop of a hat.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Does this correspond with a purchase of a new goat that could have brought a more resistant/virulent strain? I would think that if a new goat brought with it a new strain of cocci, it could be it wouldn't even show up until the next "cocci season" (after the dry hot summer and after the cold winter.)


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## Ober House (Jul 12, 2012)

Coccidia here in the Pacific Northwest has become tougher to treat. I worked with my vet and it took 6 weeks to treat it in one of my mature does. I had to use brand name Albon at twice the dose. I think here we have the perfect climate for it to thrive. we are wet most of the year. Our temps have been warmer than normal. There are so many things we cannot use here for regular treatment on a daily basis as I am finding out. So We just watch our fecals and treat as needed. I have had a few youngsters that it took using the daily dose twice a day to beat it.


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

Ober House said:


> Coccidia here in the Pacific Northwest has become tougher to treat. I worked with my vet and it took 6 weeks to treat it in one of my mature does. I had to use brand name Albon at twice the dose. I think here we have the perfect climate for it to thrive. we are wet most of the year. Our temps have been warmer than normal. There are so many things we cannot use here for regular treatment on a daily basis as I am finding out. So We just watch our fecals and treat as needed. I have had a few youngsters that it took using the daily dose twice a day to beat it.


This is exactly my point. Are the vets continuing education with goats as they do with horses, cattle, dogs, and cats??
Exactly the reason so many people have problems with stunted kids,a nd reacurring problems, underdosing....


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I live in a small damp place, so prevention is a must. I am forever being slammed for prevention by people who believe that unless they see bloody diarrhea, there is no need to worry about cocci.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

But the thing is, it's not like cocci med resistance is going to cause a problem with a 2 week old kid or 20 day old kid! And the meds work fine for me. I can just tell my default cocci issue is way different than it used to be. 

The baycox is like flipping a switch, the kids were eating poorly, dose and a few hours later they were eating much better. And I lean towards an OCD mentality, have a natural attention to detail- I measure weights several times and dose pretty exactly on their baycox/corid (used corid before, now using baycox because it's easier and cheaper, and less med).


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

dragonlair said:


> I live in a small damp place, so prevention is a must. I am forever being slammed for prevention by people who believe that unless they see bloody diarrhea, there is no need to worry about cocci.


I see this all the time on FB groups. Ugh!

Ashley, maybe it's just a kid that doesn't have good immunity for some reason?


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

My last batch of kids needed their prevention with Corid at 2 weeks old. They were off and it fixed them. My first batch of kids, 2 had severe seizures, the others were tweekie, I was new so didn't have them on prevention or everyone on copper. Giving them copper stopped the seizures. Looking back, my last batch didn't have seizures since they were on prevention but my brown wether turned nearly white since I didn't copper bolus early enough, he was 5 weeks old. He has a roan coat color that really shows copper deficiency. If he didn't have prevention he would have had seizures since he didn't have adequate copper, I firmly believe, just like my first kids. Coccidiosis puts out a toxin that is buffered by copper helping to prevent encephalitis and the seizures I experienced with my kids. Joyce Lazarro of Saanendoah said that other herds and her have started copper bolusing kids at 2-4 weeks. old. So I am thinking that possibly your kids could have had some mild encephalitis that may have been prevented with some added copper. Could the dam be at the end of the copper bolus dosing schedule, so due for that, and so the kids were especially low in copper? I have to ask though if much copper makes it into the milk since my wether, he was dam raised, and she was up on copper, but he still turned white.

http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/Docs_health/Nervous_Coccidiosis.pdf Neurotoxins from Coccidiosis.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Very interesting, I will check it out. I will have to look at my info in the barn to see when she was last bolused. I don't think my boluses last the five months between doses. The goats have an extra sparkle 6 weeks out but I think at about 3 months out thee benefits are mostly gone. But I don't want to give more copper with the high copper mineral and bolusing. Perhaps I should start giving all my kids that mineral shot.


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## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

We copper bolus own kids at 8 wks, 6 months, and a year old and then they hop onto the bi-annual schedule that our mature goats are on.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Ok, looked at my info in the barn. Interesting, both does with kids that showed slight issues before their first prevention dose were definitely low on copper in their pregnancy, espcially this one this year that had both kids not eating well at 20 days (this doe was barren for a few breeding seasons and I just plain neglected her copper because she's a jerk to bolus). I'm going to have to look into this some more. I should really look into filtering our water. It is well water. I don't know what the minerals components are like but I know we have very very hard water. The only other difference I can think of is we have been in drought this year and the last, I have been relying more on bought forage and not on our pasture.


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

Good point Lavernie on the copper!!

I was wondering, where does a kid get it's coccidia from?
THis was my thought when asking about dosages, if the dam 
has an overload from improper dosages, wouldn't it pass that on
to the kids? Just like the poor immunity, low minerals etc??


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

An adult doe won't be overloaded unless something is quite wrong. And if she did she would have symptoms. They have immunity by the time they are adults.


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

Ive seen (at the clinic I worked at and with folks I know) adult goats 
seriously ill, or die from coccidia, because of improper dosing, or not at all. 

It just makes sense that the does that have an overload, develope a poor 
immune system due to the cocci, and pass that on to any potential babies. 
Granted some will be stronger, but others won't. 

Was this doe properly treated? What doses were used?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Adults carry large populations of parasites, they simply have an immune system that can handle it. We quit letting kids nurse even in the dairy barn when kids were all slated for slaughter because we couldn't control cocci in our nursing kids. From robust and healthy to dying after 3 weeks old (the lifecycle of cocci). No amount of cleaning is really going to do anything for you, unless they are away from the host, their dams poop, the material on the unclean teats.

I think what most are seeing, is not a change in cocci, what they are seeing is that they really didn't have cocci to treat in the beginning. Now the old dosages, guessing and time (simply having goats on your property for 3+ years, saturates your place, especially inside the barn even if you have freeze, making it simply an inhospitable place in which to raise our infants). Fecal sampling and finding out what dosages of drugs actually work for you is paramount. 

Infants are born with zero immunity, they get all their immunity from their dams colostrum, then vaccination and simply having parasites, virus and bacteria in their system, is what builds immunity (why my prevention program works so well, it builds immunity in the kids while keeping parasite burdens low) but does colostrum contain immunity to parasites? Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

VictoriaK said:


> Ive seen (at the clinic I worked at and with folks I know) adult goats
> seriously ill, or die from coccidia, because of improper dosing, or not at all.
> 
> It just makes sense that the does that have an overload, develope a poor
> ...


Are you asking me? If so, what doe? The does have had no issues.

What I'm mainly confused about are symptoms, albeit mild ones, before or at 20 days of age. That's what seems weird to me.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Some people, sheep people, will treat their females just before kidding/lambing in order to hopefully have the ewe/doe shed fewer cocci into the environment at the time of the kid/lamb's birth.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We did this with medicated feed for our boer does as they were moved into the kidding pasture. This way they were not shedding occysts as the kids are born.

Ashley, dirty teats simply have cocci occysts on them, so kids are getting cocci at day 1, day 21 the lifecycle has matured and you have breakthroughs. As above, it is why I could not let kids nurse (we had albon without good dosages) rarely could we save kids who got cocci.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> ...as they were moved into the kidding pasture.


I think this is important too. If you just treat the pregnant does and don't have some different environment for them to go afterward or before the kids come, then I doubt however long they are treated before kidding will be enough time to do much good as far as a clean environment goes.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Couple of points:

What Vicki stated here is sooooo right - the adults shed cocci like crazy. They are just immune to it - the kids are not. So feeding a grain that has rumensin in it is very helpful in this situation. We "prevent" here in the east side of Pacific North Wet (where it is usually fairly dry - listed as "semi-arid") with Di-Methox given orally, directly in each and every kids' mouth.

Big point: Do you know the life cycle of the oocysts? They start to multiply rapidly when the kid is 18 days old....Perhaps you need to start prevention at day 18 or 19 and treat for 5 days. (Got this advice from Annette Maze, goat breeder and judge and what that woman doesn't know about goats would fill a little Golden Book). 

We have only had to treat/prevent for 3 days and at 21 days and 42 days because this has not been an issue for us. However, the last two Springs and early summers have been very rainy for us, so we have had to treat a 3rd time as well. Saw kids that were just kind of bopping along make a great big growth spurt after that 3rd treatment... 

PS Our dairy kids are pulled at birth and in no contact with adult animals, nor are the young stock rotated to pens that were holding young stock older than they are (The April kids are not rotated to the "old" March kid pen). Our Boers dam raise and the Boer stock gets the rumensin grain, not the Dairy. All the kids get the Di-Methox.


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

Ashley, Yes, I am asking about the dam,or dams to the kids with the problem.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Victoria to have a dam free from cocci, she would have to be on a feed through program, Rumensin, Lasalocid, Decoquinate, or she is shedding cocci into the environment, which infects her kids. 

Let's discuss, how a doe can give immunity to a parasite to her kids via colostrum? Or are parasites environmental, (not a virus or bacterial) so kids have to build immunity only.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

No, I don't treat the adults for Cocci. 

I had assumed colostrum did have parasite immunity. What part of the immune system attacks parasites?


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

I am just curious if the dam had an overload, r was improperly treated for coccidia as a young goat. 

Is it the consensus that giving copper before, during, and after kidding builds up immune systems in does, 
who then pass immunity on through colostrom.?? 

Honestly I am not believeing that adult goats are immune to coccidia overloads, because of the adults Ive seen 
die from it. Which is why, as we have been told over and over on this forum and others fecaling is ever so 
important. My belief is that the adults with coccidia were improperly treated as kids, thus the reason for adults to have overloads, 
and pass them onto the kids....

but...we also need to look into the fact that has alreadybeen mentioned kids will and do get coccidia from nursing, and it is 
a viscious cycle...


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## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

Adults are absolutely not immune to coccidia overload...even if they've been on prevention as kids. I've noticed that several of my kids that were on regular prevention then come into spring/summer as yearlings and have a case of coccidia "blowout". I usually only give them one dose of di-methox and then all is well in their world again. Occasionally, they'll have another "blowout" if they're under extreme stress, such as being moved around. It seems to me that the adults have a somewhat symbiotic relationship with the coccidia and that certain things blow that symbiosis out of whack and the goat gets sick as the coccidia proliferate.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Vicki doesn't mean an adult cannot get a coccidia overgrowth. But it is not a normal occurance. But if they get stressed badly or moved somewhere with a new strain or have a bad immunity issue, they can come down with it. I've never had an adult have a cocci problem. One of the does in question was not born here but has no signs of ever having a coccidia overload. The other doe was born here and did not ever have a problem, she was one of the fattest doelings I've had. 

Just because a doe did have a cocci overgrowth as a kid and survived, wouldn't mean her coccidia levels would be high now, other than from being physically weakened and stunted and having poor immunity, bad enough that she could fall into the above category I was talking about with adults. Because coccidia is always there and is dependent on the current situation and not what happened years ago- unless it caused lasting effects that pertain to the current situation.


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## doodles (Nov 1, 2007)

Ashley, What dosage per 10 lbs are you giving the Baycox?


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

It's 1 cc per 5 lbs.


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

Ashley, that was what I was thinking, but if a doe has an underlying weak immune system, is it possible for her to potentially pass that on to her kids?
I know you are trying to educate yourself as to why these certian set of kids started acting off. Is it possible they were born to does that weren't properly treated as kids, thus causing weak immune systems?? 
As we have seen on this thread though, it has been noted by others kids acting off by two weeks, which does seem a bit early.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I don't think so, they are pretty robust girls.


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

So it looks like then that like so many, it is wqhat it is, the coccidia are attacking your babies, 
because they are...is that what you are concluding then??

It really does seem that to me...are you coppering all of them now???
I believe you mentioned that you have started, it really does help so much with immunity!


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## doodles (Nov 1, 2007)

Thanks Ashley! Are you doing fecals to know if it is working completely?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Your goats are going to shed cocci occysts, coppered or not, with a strong immunity they simply are not bothered by them. Babies are born with zero immunity, you also can't copper them....so you have to treat, no matter how well we control cocci in adults, you have to help your kids along when parasites are an issue in your area. The longer you have goats, the less freeze you have in the winter, the more important prevention becomes and religiously using your management (after you make sure it is working by learning to fecal 

Imagine when you never have to listen to what anyone says ever again, because although what you say may work at your farm, it doesn't here.....what works here, doesn't work for someone else living in the north.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I am coppering them all. I have been but I've not been very good and staying strictly on a schedule like I should.. 

No, I didn't fecal. I have had so much going on, but the change in their eating was from one feeding to the next, they started eating normally that fast. I also used it last year successfully.

I'm also planning to test the water and likely get a filter.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas said:


> Adults are absolutely not immune to coccidia overload...even if they've been on prevention as kids. I've noticed that several of my kids that were on regular prevention then come into spring/summer as yearlings and have a case of coccidia "blowout". I usually only give them one dose of di-methox and then all is well in their world again. Occasionally, they'll have another "blowout" if they're under extreme stress, such as being moved around. It seems to me that the adults have a somewhat symbiotic relationship with the coccidia and that certain things blow that symbiosis out of whack and the goat gets sick as the coccidia proliferate.


Adrienne, I have to say, I have a problem with this. Although I haven't had goats that long, NONE of my adult goats have EVER had a problem with coccidia. EVER. Do they shed them? Yes, I'm sure. But if I had an adult that had an overload of coccidia, I would really have to look at my management. "Blowout"? What IS that? Again, I do NOT expect this AT ALL! If your kids that are on prevention and later have a problem, I would be looking at the dosages and frequency of those same dosages. Again, I don't expect this at all. AND I FECAL REGULARLY.

Ashley, I had a hard time with cocci this spring. We didnt' have a good winter freeze. LOL, you probably almost never do down there, but for me, I screwed up and tried to get the kids on the same schedule too soon. This next kidding season I will be giving prevention ON THE DAY that it should be and then later, much later, get them on the same schedule. I really think this was my problem.


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## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

My dosing is based upon veterinary instruction and my observations are just that...my observations from my personal experience.


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## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

And to clarify, a "blowout" is my pet term for when the adult goat goes from normal pellets one day to raging diarrhea the next. One dose of di-methox clears it up. I've consulted several local people who also experience this, especially with kids they rigorously raised on prevention. One such person is a veterinarian who has been raising dairy goats as long as I have. I don't have a "problem" per se as I've only ever had this "blowout" happen with maybe 3 adult goats ever in the probably couple hundred goats I've had pass through my hands.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

That's an interesting idea Nancy. I did notice a difference here in IN. I felt like three weeks was almost too late to start prevention. I was also not pleased with my summer kids versus my spring kids. I'm not going to do June kiddings again. The spring kids have shown the best growth of any I've ever had.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Adrienne,the difference in information you are going to get from this forum, form what you hear from a vet in your area, is that you have freeze...we do not. We have decades of parasites living in the ground. One shot of anything, isn't going to touch coccidia here. You learn prevention management, you learn to fecal, or you have dead goats, stunted kids and vet bills. BTDT and I won't go back, no matter what a vet says, it doesn't help here at the farm. So come at us with fecal counts, before and after treatment, you will draw a lot more interest in your posts, which we do need on this forum....a point of view with fecal numbers, from someone up north where it does freeze. Vicki


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## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

That's an excellent suggestion! I'm partnering with some local boer goat raisers that have begun learning to do their own fecals. As we do have the privilege of freezes up here, I haven't required barely any professional intervention with treating my animals for parasite loads of any kind. Thank you for your direction and input, Vicki


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## doodles (Nov 1, 2007)

I am in north Ga.and we do get temps down to single digits and occasionally below 0 . Will this take care of Cocci? We had no snow to speak of last winter and it seems like everything was worse from spiders,flies and parasites.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

doodles said:


> I am in north Ga.and we do get temps down to single digits and occasionally below 0 . Will this take care of Cocci? We had no snow to speak of last winter and it seems like everything was worse from spiders,flies and parasites.


No! I am in Michigan and still practice cocci prevention. Last year we had a mild winter and had a terrible cocci outbreak in my kid crop.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Fom what I've read, freezes don't kill your parasites, cold weather just puts them in suspended animation. So the benefit of a cold climate is not that it kills your parasite population, but rather there are just less months out of the year that your parasites are active and reproducing. Hot *arid* climates are harder on parasites than cold ones.


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## doodles (Nov 1, 2007)

I knew that about worms but thought maybe cocci was different. :/


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ashley, what we learned from Texas A&M is that ground freeze and arid, kill parasites in the ground, both larve and eggs. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Yes, so it may keep our populations down compared to you in the south, but we still need to be vigilant.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Vicki, I can't seem to find anything about it, where can I get more info? Kinda makes sense, our last couple winters have been pretty weak. I think this one will be too.


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Winter?? What on earth are you talking about Ashley?? We aren't getting winter this year!  Wore shorts today, December 2nd, because it was 89°!!! 

Makes me sad... I LOVE winter and really love snow.....


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep Crystal, I got sunburned Saturday a the market!!

Ashley, I know at one time Texas A&M had their info up from Edwards Plateau, Dr. Craig talked about it at our club meeting. The old info on pasture rotation, burning pastures, did nothing for the parasites...only really arid conditions (prolonged) and deep freeze. I do not know if you simply can call and ask if Dr. Craig or Dr. Cradock have old published info on parasites they share? Vicki


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

Can someone clarify for me? To date (three kidding seasons) I have used the di-methox 40% for five days every three weeks like recommended. However, I have not fed medicated grain along with it. The first two years I dam raised and so the kids got very little grain (what they nibbled while on milk stand with momma). This last year I did grain my kids as I switched to the lambar, but just used my regular grain mix. So far, I have had no cocci troubles.

Do you all do the medicated grain daily AND the di-methox?


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## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

I do the same di-methox schedule as you do, but I do not feed medicated grain. My kids are growthy, so I don't think it's necessary. Most goat raisers I speak to do one or the other (medicated grain or di-methox schedule), but not both.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

lorit said:


> Can someone clarify for me? To date (three kidding seasons) I have used the di-methox 40% for five days every three weeks like recommended. However, I have not fed medicated grain along with it. The first two years I dam raised and so the kids got very little grain (what they nibbled while on milk stand with momma). This last year I did grain my kids as I switched to the lambar, but just used my regular grain mix. So far, I have had no cocci troubles.
> 
> Do you all do the medicated grain daily AND the di-methox?


The reason people are feeding both is because they want the kids on the grain, but the kids don't eat enough when very young to get enough of a dose to work. So they give other prevention until the kids are eating the required amount of the medicated grain.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And once again....YMMV because you live where it freezes, our management will be overkill for what you choose to do with your herd where it does freeze.


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

It doesn't really freeze hard up here - we are on the temperate side of the mountains and while we get lots of snow for a couple months, the ground is really just barely crusty - not at all what I would call a freeze worth counting on to kill parasites. Mostly just LOTS of cold wet mud.

I will say I prefer the di-methox given specifically to each kid based upon weight. It can be a hassle to do it that way but then I don't have to worry if any kids are getting too much or too little grain, etc. I guess as long as it works; it seems as one or the other is best but that two simultaneously is probably overkill.


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Medicated feeds can not be consumed in high enough quantities for kids to get the needed dose of meds while they are young, so coccidia prevention meds are given until the kid can consume the nessesary amounts of medicated grain.
That's why you see folks using both.... Once the kids are off milk and eating larger volumes of medicated feed, they are continuing their cocci prevention via the pellets.


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