# Weak Pasterns



## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I have a doe that is FF who kidded in March with twins. She had an awful time with her legs during that pregnancy. Besides keeping her feet closely monitored, should I be giving her BOSE every 21 days from here on in. She is not bred, end of october for that. Thanks.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

I would ask your vet for advice based in your area. Every 21 days seems excessive. Are they weak due to genetics or lack of selenium is what you need to figure out. I have a 6 year old Ex90 that got coded for soft pasterns at LA this year she lived a hard life at a mountainous dairy before coming to me and that may have contributes to it but all the BOSE in the world is not going to change it.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Ziggy-it is both! Genetics play a role in that they are genetically predisposed to poor use of oral selenium so yes bo-se will help. And no they will not overdose because they are using it up since they do not use what they are eating.That is why injected was developed in the first place so we can by pass faulty digestion.
Is it faulty really? Only for what we ask of them.

I would try to find a source of the selenium yeast by Diamond V. 
http://www.artat.com.sa/pdf/SelenoSourceAF2000.pdf
It is more bioavailable and has helped animals that previously could not use oral selenium properly.

But failing that I would inject bo-se every 21 days until you see her start to tighten up and then do it monthly particularly if you are going to breed her. I have a similar doe and she gets once a month for 6 months of the year- the month prior to breeding up until she kids. 
Lee


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

So what dose are you giving monthly?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

1 cc per 50 pounds until the prekidding shot which is 1cc per 30 pounds this increase because....

I read an article stating that the loosening of the ligaments for birthing in small ruminants is often not completely reversed (tightened up) due to imbalanced hormones particularly in FF so you get does down in their pasterns in early lactation. The ligaments in the pelvic region are not the only ones that are effected by hormones at parturition. I thought about that for awhile and decided that maybe it was not completely hormonal and perhaps was nutritive as well with more requirements at this time in the life of a goat and began more intensive supplementation surrounding parturition. 

So....I often also give does a booster of BO-Se immediately after kidding despite the dose at 2 weeks prior. I also found when I began using more frequent dosages that I had NO dopey kids that could not learn to suck immediately but rather had kids that leaped up dragging their mucous to start rooting for milk and often getting a good feeding before they are even cleaned. This was quite a turnaround for our herd since we often had kids that had to have intensive instruction on eating :/ and had poor suck reflex particularly in our Nubians. The kid vigor alone was amazing and then 0 does down in their pasterns was a smile maker too. I see no signs of overdose but of course everyone has different animals in different situations so this may not be applicable to any one else. (lawyer talk :biggrin)

However I really don't think the product would have been developed or be so readily available if there was not a fairly great need. Just my experience with my own herd and no science behind it !
Lee


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Think about the kid vigor...it's ligaments too....


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks. That is a lot more than i give and I have never had problems with kids but maybe I will try upping the frequency of dose a bit on the couple with weak pasterns and see what happens.


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

With all this BOSE...do you find your average pregnancy is a litter? 1cc/30# from one month prior to thru the pregnancy including after delivery dose of same? I will actually try to get some pics of her on the milkstand tonite. Be interested to hear your take on her. I was out there watching her. She is 120 lbs. very leggy thin doe and it seems if I had to describe the way she looks, it seems her ankle at the coronary band rolls the outside on both her feet. It is really strange?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> 1cc/30# from one month prior to thru the pregnancy including after delivery dose of same


NO....

1 cc per 50 pounds until the prekidding shot which is 1cc per 30 pounds

No.... we have twins and trips here but large kids.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I know the giving of selenium like Lee does, does give me one more kid per birth...coupled of course with basic management that lets a young doe kid out with 3 kids and not have problems. We know that selenium is used up daily and that bo-se only lasts in the body about 21 days, my older does get shots every 21 days and at 9 and 10 they are some of the healthiest older does I have had, if they weren't so fat they would be even healtier 

The vigor of kids at birth, the ability to have them standing and on the lambar in 48 hours, is what convinced me. 

Totally unscientific but I think Nubians need more selenium than the swiss breeds and LaMancha's do.

Would also love to know the bloodline you are using, we have some really awful feet in Nubians right now. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> we have some really awful feet in Nubians right now


Off Topic but this reminds me of shopping for bucks recently.
Was sent pedigrees and photos of the buckling via email.
Asked for photos of dam- got udder shots side and back- well and good.

Me-"Please send close up of feet esp rear."

The answer was....and I quote

"Feet don't count for much on the scorecard"

I will leave my reply to your imagination :rofl Just know it was lengthy :biggrin
Lee


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

buckrun said:


> The answer was....and I quote
> 
> "Feet don't count for much on the scorecard"
> 
> ...


Too funny, Lee.

Did you end up getting this buckling?


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Ziggy, we are not too far from you, (south central va.) and do use bo-se once per month now. We used to use it 3-4 times per year but did have a few kids born with weak ligaments in their legs which took a couple of weeks to straighten up....these were kids I wanted to sell right away but due to the leg issue, would not. With the bo-se and copper bolus we did not even need to body clip our does this year and they shed out with coats that are the shiniest I've ever seen in my herd. Well, except for one black doe who required extra zinc and some extra wormings and a cocci treatment to get her shine back on, but boy, she glows now.

I feel like it is one of those things that contribute to better weights, better haircoats, better worm resistance, etc. in my herd. Just one of the things as by itself I don't think it would be the complete ticket.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

No $ale


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks Anita. Sounds like I will be going through a lot more BOSE this year.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I have noticed *Our* swiss breeds do not need as much selenium as the nubians, but I still give BoSe at prekidding @ 1cc per 30lbs to all of them. Some of our nubians require more selenium during pregnancy than others and I do give 3 rounds of BoSe during gestation up to three weeks before birth, the last one giving a full 1cc per 30lbs. I pretty much follow Lee's protcol on dosage. On our alpines it really depends on the animal too. 
Tam


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I've been reading flaxseed is high in selenium. Is there any chance a small addition of that could do any good? How do you get these Diamond V products? Do you have to get them from a mill?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

They are like Amway etc....you have to be a distributor to sell them. So go to their website, just google them and find a local feed mill or distributor that sells them. We have a couple of places here that keep them for the horse folks. Vicki


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## Golden_Seal (Sep 14, 2011)

Sorry to go a little off topic but I was wondering what determines that you need to give selenium so frequently? Like what is a sign for you that they need a booster?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Angie- flaxseed is great but seemingly expensive if you have many animals to supplement.
Pumpkin seed and any squash family things also have high levels. But very pricey as they are handled mostly as human food. Another thing to consider is that if oral selenium was adequate they would be just fine with mineral mix containing a good level. 


> How do you get these Diamond V products?


There are several companies making an end product with the Diamond V XP DFM that has the microbial and enzyme supplements. Fast Track is such a product- Hoeggers has one too and many others have bought a bag of the concentrate and mixed with extenders- baking soda and more yeast and then sell it under private label in small amts. I always wanted the 50 pound bag to treat the whole herd with tablespoon top dress on the milk stand and not pay for someone to profit off the original product but there are alternatives out there.

I was told by my regional Diamond V rep that there are only 2 companies producing a product like this which is generally considered a feed additive which is why it is not readily available to the general feed buying public. Most rations will have it included because it helps digestion of an otherwise disturbing product. So if you look around under Rumen enhancer or digestive enhancement for ruminants etc you will find other products in smaller amts. 
Highway robbery on the prices but worth it if you have no way to get the bulk. I need to set myself up as a distributor  
Lee


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I was reading about the health benefits for humans of the original product. They have a version for human consumption and the mark up in insane, but maybe understandable considering the hoops they have to jump through. I noticed people are repackaging and selling smaller bags on ebay, still with quite a mark up. I wonder how much a distributor needs to buy. Could we form a group to chip in and order?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I found this distributor of the original yeast product - http://www.duboisdistributors.com/catalog.asp?prodid=547748&showprevnext=1

The price still seems inflated from what I've heard mentioned on different websites. Shipping here would be $35. I wonder if they would order the selenium product?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Angie, look further, we have local feed stores carrying it and we are in nowhere Texas...also Producers Coop in Bryan Texas carries it....I know if you simply contacted them through their website you could find a local source...especially at mills who use it in their custom mixes. Just google.com them. Vicki


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I emailed them. I couldn't find a list of distributors on the webpage. I know Big V feed mill uses them cause I used to feed a horse feed with it in it. The price of the feed just got too rich for me last winter. It had zinpro minerals and diamond V yeast, so for a sweet feed it was pretty good. I just don't think those mixes ever put enough of the good stuff. They are too conservative. Well for one thing I don't feed alot of concentrate. I'd like to have more control over what is in each cup of ration...


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Angie - you can talk to Robert Barrett at Producer's here in Bryan/College Station. He's their resident nutritionist. The phone number is (979) 778-6000.

Depending on how many goats you're feeding, Producer's will do custom mixes of whatever you want with a minimum order of 2 tons (80 bags).

Caroline


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Here's what I got from the email:
Our product is mainly mixed at the feed mills. You can buy bags of DVXP but you will need to go to a dairy area like Sulphur Springs and get a bag from the North East Texas Farmers Coop or Sunbelt Custom Minerals. Phone are 9038853143 and (903) 885-6106 You could also get a bag from Producers Coop in Bryan 979 778 6000

Hopefully one of the three will let me have a couple bags of the Diamond V products. It would take me a long time to use 80 bags of feed. I use about 2 bags a week.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Angie but also ask at those places if anyone is reselling in your area. Producers has trucks that deliever feed into my area. Everything with goats is searching and hunting....in the end it is exhausing to make changes to your routine...it has to be something spectacular for me to even pay attention. My minerals contain Diamond V and Kelp, so I only pick up a bag of XP whenever I go up to feed out the beginning of lactation, it helps the does assimlate so much better to more grain, not as important if you feed grain all the time or you don't have good milkers.

I will see my first tag of the new minerals with their change next year, and then decide if I will go back to mixing XP and kelp into my own minerals or stay with them, no idea if they are still in the new minerals with the increase of zinc. Vicki


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Found this product that might be useful in lue of Selenosource. Appears to be pretty concentrated with 2 mg selenium per tiny scoop. http://www.platinumperformance.com/Equine-Selenium-Yeast/productinfo/ESELP1/


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