# pneumonia doe-thanks for the help.



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

Sunday afternoon picked up one of our goats from the original breeder--being bred to her leased buck.

W/O looking up think she was a last Feb. kid.

Weighed about 85 pounds last month before we took her there. Looks like about 80 pounds now.

Goat was found in very bad condition with pneumonia. I do not know how long she was sick or off feed or water. She had only access to grass/alfalfa mix hay and no grain.

We gave her some IV meds at my mom's near the breeders place and came home the 2.5 hr. drive. Got home and gave her banamine (3/4 cc IM)and nuflor 5ccIM) Do not have iv or sq fluids on hand.

Her condition sun. night was head down/ears drooped/lying down, moaning and rattling with every breath. Didn't expect her to make it through the night, her eyes and nose were also running badly

but Mon. morning she was alert, ears pricked, eyes bright, lying down, still moaning with every breath, but did drink a surprising amount.

Mon total she probably drank a half gal. of water and had more banamine (1/2 cc am and 1/2 pm) and nuflor 3.5 cc pm. By last night the breathing was much improved with only slight noise. She was much more alert.

Tues. morning she is more alert, but still down. Found her in a mess of pee with a little soft partially formed berry-poops. She has been straining a bit last two days also and has little bloody discharge this morning--I suppose the pregnancy. She didn't willingly drink this morning for me like yesterday. I know she needs fluids badly.

My FIL can make a vet pickup of whatever I need today. What would you suggest for her? I need to know soon.

*Lactated Ringer Solution * --would be one and says SQ or IV. 5 bags???? be enough. dose says 400mL for her 80lbs. 1-3x/day.

What might be another name for a *similar product*??? We don't want saline solution, right?

If I can get her hydrated and over this crud, what kind of food are we looking at====what is she going to need in her stomach?

What I mean is today is my chance for what I need, I am not going to be able to go back to the vet this week. :down


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds please...*

do you have dextros on hand?? if so you can make a solution with it and saline water or boiled sterile water and give sq. Would have to go look up the amounts for sure.


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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds please...*

I don't like to recommend meds, but for MY ANIMALS, I swear by Nuflor. I have had more luck with that than I have had Naxcel. Nuflor is a Rx, and NOT cheap, but worth every penny in my opinion.

Ken


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds please...*

Thanks Ken, ya, we are using Nuflor already. never w/o it for the cows 

Sondra, no, no dextrose here  Can I concoct it with something else???????? How about tubing her with water???


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds please...*

You know I do have pedialyte on hand. could I give this iv, im or sq???

contains: dextrose,
potassium citrate
sodium chloride
 sodium citrate

per liter, contains: sodium 45 mEq
potassium 20 mEq
chloride 35 ''
citrate 30 ''
dextrose 25 grams
calories 100


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds please...*

gosh don't know as I would risk it see if your vet has lactate ringers or see if she'll take a bottle or tube what you have but sure wouldn't iv or sq it. myself


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds please...*

would think if the nuflor and the banamine kick in she will start drinking.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds please...*

sent you a pm with Vicki's ph number


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds please... and cocoa update.*

Thanks again Sondra. Just as I was writing Vicki's # this morning my electric went out :sigh. So I had to report to FIL about what I needed then and just told him 5 bags of lactated ringers, as couldn't think of anything else ??????

Cocoa seems a bit better today. Breathing is still shallow, but no noise now. Seems to be resting fairly peacefully now. Still very very sick. Her nose and eyes are no longer running. Have seen a few moist and sticky formed berries pass twice today. Haven't seen any pee since the puddle I found this morning. Thank goodness we are able to have her in the warm shop on a bed of hay surrounded by alfalfa bales  and out of the blasted wind.

Gave her 2 cc bo-se at noon today. 1/2 cc banamine this morning.

Will plan to give her 1/2 cc banamine tonight and her nuflor--3.5 cc.

If I don't hear from vicki or kaye or?? before tonight dose, I will try to call to make sure we are on the right track. Fluids should be here tonight  Hopefully not too late for her. Got the liter of pedialyte down her; half she drank and the other half I syringed into her mouth and she swallows willingly. She has more energy and will to fight me messing with her today which is nice to see. Picked her up to stand twice; stood 1 or 2 minutes; very weak. Inside of her mouth is no longer ice cold like it was when we got her back and even yesterday.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Just keep giving her as much fluids as you can get down right now. Vicki will be on here shortly to help you.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

ok. after reading I am going to give 400 mL IV as soon as my BIL gets here tonight  I will also give the 3.5cc nuflor SQ tonight and the banamine 1/2 cc. Unless otherwise suggessted.

pos. note: when we were moving feed in the shop with the skid loader this evening she tried hard to get up and away from it. She was too weak to get up, but at least she had the well-being to try. sun. night you could have set a wolf in front of her face and she was so sick she wouldn't have noticed or cared. 

come on BIL.....


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Sorry I have no idea on giving anything other than lactated ringers either in the setup or the bottle.

Keep up the banamine and the nuflor, make sure your dose is a good one from Kaye, I use naxcel. The banamine will keep the lungs from scarring. But yes getting her hydrated again will make her feel better.

B vitmains, no grain until she is ruminanting and pooping normally, and don't think of rebreeding her until she is 100%.

You did great! You can redo the bo-se next week and then once a month for awhile also.

Keep her jacketed so she isn't wasting body heat staying warm. Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Your dose is right on with the Nuflor....give it once a day for 5 days and you can give the banamine at least once a day. I'd go for twice a day for 3 days...to help with the inflammation in the lungs.

Pedialyte.....no way IV (you'll kill her) or even SQ...it's not designed for that! Orally only. But now that you've got the LRS go with that. Try letting her drink warm water each time before you give her the SQ Fluids. With the pain,fever, kept in check by the Banamine, she may try drinking on her own. You need to get that doe on her feet somehow. The longer she is down (if she is) the more pressure she puts on those lungs. And don't be surprised if she forms pockets of the LRS under her skin...it gravitates to the lowest point but will absorb.
Keep us updated. Try anything green and hopefully with alfalfa as a prop she will get interested in that. No grain.
Kaye


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

make her a sling and put her in for a while each day
I read where if they are down you have to turn every 1/2 hr to avoid getting pneumonia so Kaye is right you need to get her up


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Okay, Vicki, Kaye...I keep reading posts about sick goats, and giving IV or Lac. Ringers....how do you do that? Are you actually sticking a needle in the vein and giving the goat an IV????

Sheryl


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Lac. ringers got here last night and we IV'd her with about 450 mL. That seemed to perk her up a bit and we got her up and she peed a reg. amount and pood a little moist pellets. When I left her, she was trying to munch on a mouthful of hay and nosing through some a. pellets! Couldn't believe it; not sure when the last time she ate was, as we got her back on her death bed sun. pm and pretty sure she wasn't eating any that day:sigh

I have been offering her warm water and sometimes molasses water every hour; she sometimes drinks a little and sometimes sips.

This morning we got her up for her bathroom duties. she seems perky and eyes look really good now.
========================

Ok.
Kaye-- glad the nuflor dose is good; I will continue that through thurs. then. I have been giving her the banamine 2x/day , so if I can go three days, then today will be the third. (started 1st dose sun. night)

*On giving the L. ringers SQ. how many cc do I give in one spot? (or what is the max. cc for one spot?) Should I just spread it over her rib area then, or better elsewhere? Or would it be best to IV her with it again? I assume just keep this up until she is drinking real well.*

Yes, she is down. I have been getting her up a few times a day, but I need to start now. For a day or two it was working with a half dead goat, so wasn't thinking too much about that, but now with her improvements, I need to get her up more.

Sondra, thanks for the suggestions and support 

Sheryl, you can just get iv sets and give an IV just like to a person. so yes, sticking a needle in.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

My friend went to Convention and heard there that you should never give a goat dextrose subQ. Sounds like the LR and other meds you are using are helping. I hope she continues to recover.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

well, since no response yet about the *L.R. dose per site SQ*, I am going to IV her another 450 now. check back in later. thanks.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Well as far as the sq route I have heard just till it makes a fist size ball and then go to the other side. This is what I have done. But gosh if you can give it IV it works much faster in their system I would think.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*



goatkid said:


> My friend went to Convention and heard there that you should never give a goat dextrose subQ. Sounds like the LR and other meds you are using are helping. I hope she continues to recover.


Yep you would be so right however if your goat is dying and you have no other resorces you really don't have anything to lose and I did save one goat this way. However you don't just give dextros plain it has to be mixed with saline solution in the right percentages, also since I don't know how and didn't have the proper stuf to do IV I did use it sq.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*



Sondra said:


> goatkid said:
> 
> 
> > My friend went to Convention and heard there that you should never give a goat dextrose subQ. Sounds like the LR and other meds you are using are helping. I hope she continues to recover.
> ...


yes, and she was definitely dying. :sniffle and was to the point of about anything was worth a shot.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

SQ fluids....put no more than 100ml in one spot. Pull out, wipe the needle end with alcohol and replace in another spot. THIS IS FOR ADULTS. Anytime you give fluids SQ or even IV...make sure the fluids are warmed to body temp. 102 degrees. If you give it cold or room temp...it causes them to use energy to warm up the fluids or shock. Warm it, then wrap it in a thick towel to keep the temp up.

Now...IV's. *NOTHING* goes into the vein that IS NOT clear! *AND* Unless the lable *specifically states * it can be used IV, don't do it. (There are some colored drugs that can be used IV, but they REALLY need to be recommended by a vet) There's also a complication with using too much LRS or running it too fast into a vein...so be careful with the flow. If my feeble brain serves me...LRS is set at 1 drip per 3 seconds in dogs. Can't remember exactly, but I do set my IV drips to drip slow. And if I have to use Dextrose...it is mixed in with the fluids and given IV. 
I usually use a product called Normosol-R instead of LRS because it's better balanced and doesn't have the complication mentioned above.

Big warning... unless you've been trained to give an IV shot or fluids...don't do it. If you get into the artery instead of vein with some drugs...you get a violent reaction.

Ok, I'll quit preaching now. But you seem to be getting the upper hand on the doe. I do so hope she pulls out of it.
Kaye


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

I use ..... Tylan 200 at 1cc per 25pounds given SQ for 5 days for pneumonia/shipping fever and snotty nose that wont clear up.
I hope your doe recovers


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

well thanks again for the help.

just got the 2nd. IV done. Note for future...takes three times as long to IV with the help of three little kids 

She was only willing to take a sip of water so far today. Yes, I have remembered to warm the fluids. I knew to run it slow, but just had to guess at 'how slow'. :/

Normosol-R-- will write this down for the hopefully very far off future; wasn't sure what to get besides the L. R. thanks.

I will try more fluid SQ after a few hours. She was attempting some hay nibbling when I left the shop a little bit ago. We've had her up three times so far and she seems a little more able to rise with less help and can stand for just a tad bit longer today.

I am so happy for her progress and so hopeful to save this girl! Thank you all.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

sounds so much better Good Job


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Thanks again Sondra for the support . cocoa is tons better than she was when I picked her up on Sunday. But as I keep being reminded each time I see her, she has a long ways to go still. Just came back in after SQ ing some fluids and she still won't drink for me. And after picking the leafy parts of the alfalfa out of about 7 different bales, she nibbled about a teaspoon if that. She seems like she wants to eat and smells things eagerly now, but just seems too tired to get the job done. I remember reading about somebody stimulating appetite with bread a while back and tried a piece. She seemed interested and took a very small piece but couldn't get it swallowed and it fell out 

Tonight is her last dose of banamine. This morning I was a bit late with her banamine and she was grinding her teeth a bit.

She coughed a few times today; a pretty wet cough. No nasal discharge.

Hopefully she will regain her appetite as she gets a little more hydrated, so she can regain a bit of strength.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*



> This morning I was a bit late with her banamine and she was grinding her teeth a bit.


IF she spikes a fever or seems in pain....continue the banamine for a couple more days. It's the pain relief that's making her want to eat...though small as it is. See, this is another of those "play it by ear".  
Hhhhmmm...try cutting down on the SQ fluids...see if that will make her want to drink more. Watch her eyes and tent skin for dehydration. If it doesn't make her want to drink on her own...then go back to the fluids.
Kaye


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*



Kaye White said:


> > This morning I was a bit late with her banamine and she was grinding her teeth a bit.
> 
> 
> IF she spikes a fever or seems in pain....continue the banamine for a couple more days. It's the pain relief that's making her want to eat...though small as it is. See, this is another of those "play it by ear".
> ...


Ok good. I was thinking maybe she didn't need that banamine this morning, but it sure made her more comfortable after I gave it. I have since been concerned how she was going to deal with tomorrow. shall I continue the half cc 2x per day or try to give less?

Last night IV she had 400 mL.
This morning IV she had 450 mL.

Then mid day she had the 150 remaining mL in that bag gave that SQ --all the rest had been IV; thought sure she would drink for me but didn't. Was planning to give her another big dose tonight. She wouldn't even sip the water at noon 

thanks for the help.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

can you pinch her skin up and see if it stays pinched or goes right back to normal (checking on hydration here) Try some parsley and see if she will eat that. got any cedar trees around give her a little branch. Also try just dry oatmeal regular kind just a little bit


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

I just insert the butterfly needle up high under the shoulder blade, and let the bubble build until my hand can cover it and it's budlging out, under the skin. When the bubble starts to disapate, than I start another on the other side. Be it IV or Subq you want the bag of fluids warm, 102 body temp warm.

If you are ill the very first thing they do is put an IV in, fluids help you get better, help you feel better...it is such and overlooked idea. And the idea anyone can syringe fluids...it isn't happening. And tubing water into the rumen isn't helping either. Vicki


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Did she get Fortified B complex and probios? This might help to get her eating. I guess yogurt and/or kefir in a syringe might help as well.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

80#'s, she should be getting about .8 of a cc of banamine. Try giving it to her at .8cc once a day for the next couple of days. See if she can tolerate a little pain and keep eating. At some point you're going to have to wean her off the meds. and HOPE you have the resp. infection cleared to make it on her own.

That's a good point about the Fortified B-Complex. It's got the B vitamins needed in the rumen to keep it going. I'd be giving this at least once a day.
Kaye


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Ok is vit. B complex alright, or would the fortified be better. I don't have the fortified right now. What dose would you suggest daily? SQ?

Last night she still refused to drink for me. So I SQ'd almost 400 mL again. Continues to nibble bits of leafy alfalfa. Can't seem to pick up alfalfa pellets in her mouth but tries. Reacted in pain to her nuflor shot for the first time; progress I guess.

After informing the breeder about her condition, she responded saying the nuflor caused the abortion. I myself figured she would loose the pregnancy as a mechanism of survival. Since this goat was literally on her death bed, I would have chosen to use the nuflor regardless, but is their truth to this? She also states that their is concern to breeding her this season (I guess she means this year) as to the withdrawl times of the nuflor. I haven't given it much thought as didn't know if she would make it, but I wouldn't breed her until she was back to the condtion she was before I took her for breeding, however long. any accuracy to these statements? thoughts???

The only information I can find either online or on the bottle itself states to not use in breeding age animals as studies have not been done as to effects on breeding, pregnancy, lactation ect... We have had quite a bit of use with nuflor (with cattle) and have never encountered this problem before.

Ok, I will try the .8 cc banamine 1x daily and see how she responds now.

Hopefully today will bring big improvements.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

forgot to say still refusing to drink this morning. I just want to force her to drink it's frusterating!

Pos. note she does rise easier with my help. before I had to actually pick her up and support her as she trembled and now she will stand steady and pood and peed and maybe 2 min. max and then she really wants to lie down again.

Our 3 day vacation to husband's sister's fam. next week is beginning to look bleak :/. We haven't been down there-NM for almost 5 yrs. but, anyhow...as long as she is still improving I am hopeful and will try my best for her.

thank you all for the help.


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## MysticHollowGoats (Nov 5, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Maybe if you syringed a bit of water with molasses in it very slowly in her mouth and wet her tongue it might encourage her to try to drink.

I did notice with the doe I have been nursing back to health, when she was getting banamine she would not stand for very long...like maybe it makes them a bit woozy. The day I stopped giving it to her she was up for lots longer at a time, but then again she wasn't in as much as she had been.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*



MysticHollowGoats said:


> Maybe if you syringed a bit of water with molasses in it very slowly in her mouth and wet her tongue it might encourage her to try to drink.


thanks for the suggestion. I've been doing just that since we got her back home. But it doesn't seem to encourage her much :sigh I have tried plain water, molasses water, water with a little corn syrup, water skimmed off the top of soaked alfalfa pellets, and have varied the temps of warmth also ...I even tried different containers :nooo including several bottles (she was a lambar baby). :crazy

She sip or nibble for me so far today. time for more fluid i guess.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

:sigh Well, I am trying hard not to get discouraged with this gal. Still no eating or drinking. Just SQ'd 370 mL. She did stand up once by herself and even put her front feet up onto a bale and stood there almost 2 min. seeming to enjoy herself.

She sounds a little conjested with some of her breaths. She coughed a few times I was there a real wet cough.

still peeing and pellets look almost normal now :?

how about another dose of bo-se??

oh, and just love the butterfly needle! forgot about that yesterday; thanks vicki!


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

:biggrin WEll, some encouraging news:

I was just on the lawn taking my puppy potty and looking around at the cottenwood leaves on the ground--ya, hard to believe we still have leaves on the lawn and the lawn still has a touch of green to it also! anyhow...thinking...goats love leaves! took a handful out to cocoa and she started munching them down; slower than she normally would, but still with an eagerness :biggrin so I left her with a little pile of leaves to work on and will see if this will help get that stomach churning.

On a neg. note, we haven't gotten much schooling done this week. :/


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*



> After informing the breeder about her condition, she responded saying the nuflor caused the abortion.


Some people will blame anything on a drug.....myself, I have to agree with you...self preservation. This kind of stress would cause a doe to abort, even without the drugs. :really
I'd give her about 3cc of B-complex. Does 100# and up, I have used 5cc. yes, SQ.

The fact she's reacting to the Nuflor is positive. Nuflor does sting.
Kaye


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

"On a neg. note, we haven't gotten much schooling done this week."

Sure you have, it just isnt from a canned curriculum, but from the school of life!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

have you tried koolaid in the water? might just give it a try


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*



Qvrfullmidwife said:


> "On a neg. note, we haven't gotten much schooling done this week."
> 
> Sure you have, it just isnt from a canned curriculum, but from the school of life!


 :biggrin Ya, that has been the sole focus of our "school" all fall :rofl...... cattle...shipping calves...weaning calves....vaccinating cows.... now the pincushion pneumonia doe, and daily the pincushion 6 yr. old w/diabetes and mommy...add a few little house on the prairie books and a daily game of chutes and ladders and call it good... :crazy We have been ejoying listening to the adventurer's bible on CD. I really like it as I don't have to interpret every other word for them and it really follows the scripture.

anyhow...thanks for the reminder.  We are definitely living our schooling.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*



Sondra said:


> have you tried koolaid in the water? might just give it a try


thanks, sondra, no haven't tried that. hmmm don't own koolaid, maybe can think of something similar.

still not drinking today. But...she was munching some a. pellets I left for her when I went out earlier! so hopefully....... :sigh

=================================================

Kaye, know you said 5 days on the nuflor, so since I did a dose when we got her home sun. night, then last night was the 5th dose. Should I quit or give her more?

2nd day of .8 cc banamine. I think she missed it a bit yesterday morning, as she seemed better yesterday pm few hours after i gave it. but i know I got to wean her off and she seemed pretty good this morning--minus the no water drinking.

and the daily b complex.

She coughs some now a pretty nasty sounding cough, but I am thinking that is progress getting that coughed out of her lungs; hopefully that is correct thinking.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Well, I never know what to expect when I go to the shop 

I proudly trucked out there with my warm water and jello :lol, which she did smell--improvement but adamentaly refused. So I syringed a few big syringes in her mouth to give her the good sweet taste and....she still refused it :down

On the pos. note of the day....she did get perturbed at me and the blasted syringe and got up 2 x by herself--though weakly it was by herself-- and the 2nd time she actually jumped over the bale and out of her bale hut and preceded to walk around the shop!! I led her right outside to one of the water tubs that she is used to, but she wouldn't take a sip. I got her back into her bale hut and she promptly layed down again.

She is coughing a lot more than yesterday which seems to cause her a lot of discomfort and she grinds her teeth everytime she does it. but, still thinking the coughing is a good sign.

so....I guess here come more SQ fluids. I hope she doesn't get too cold in the shop as it was chilly today and will be more tonight than it has been all week. I have her hut 2 bales high and covered with a pallet and the pallet is covered with horse blankets and she is bedded in hay, don't know that I can do any better than that for her. She likes to see out, so one side is only one bale high.

sorry for the vent....


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*



> Kaye, know you said 5 days on the nuflor,


Give the Nuflor for 2 more days. Then you will have to give her system a rest.

I'll put in a call and see if we can go with another antibiotic in a couple of days off the Nuflor. I've got to call on another problem, anyway.

Hey, Girlfriend.....look at this way...you've come from a "dead goat" to a goat that wants to live,now. You're making progress though it doesn't seem like it. Since she wants to be out....if you can, tomorrow, take her to that cottonwood tree and let her eat some dried leaves.

BTW...with everything you have around her and over her...don't get her too warm. And make sure she isn't getting ammonia from her urine rising around her. Cold air is easier to breath than warm humid air. 
Kaye


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*



Kaye White said:


> > Kaye, know you said 5 days on the nuflor,
> 
> 
> Give the Nuflor for 2 more days. Then you will have to give her system a rest.
> ...


thanks for the support and encouragement. I appreciate your advice and thoughts.

I SQ'd her almost 400 mL just now. She stood with her head in my lap the entire time I did it! I gave her the nuflor tonight since I hadn't heard from you, so glad you agreed with that decision.

It was a high of 35 here today, but with a bitter cold wind; don't have a thermometer in the shop, but the dog room-unheated says 50 right now, so the shop is probably around 40. I don't think there is much concern with getting her too warm at those temps do you?? I just covered her up for tonight, and will uncover her hut tomorrow. I think she got a little cold on me two nights back and it took til noon for her to seem better (don't know, just assuming). what do you think? tonight I left her one bale wide open in the front and the sides and the top covered I do not have a blanket on her body, but do have a blanket on top of the bale hut. She can stand in her hut and not touch the top--if that helps envision it. Maybe it was better off uncovered? It will possibly get 25-30 ish in their tonight; hopefully no colder. The shop is insulated, but not heated and this wind has just been cold. I yell at the kids to rush through the door and do not linger :biggrin

I would just love to get her out in the sunshine; I know it does them so good. But we have had an awful cold wind that is very chilling and really don't think she would benefit from that. this weekend is supposed to be worse with cold and snowy, so not sure...

Yes, thanks for the pos. comments; makes me feel good  I am pretty sure that if we hadn't have gone to pick her up sun. she would have died that night, and am positive she would have died by the next night for sure. so, she is much much improved. Of course after all this she will probably weasel a soft spot into my heart!


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

Are you giving her Probios? I always give some to any goat on a course of antibiotics. I've also had success getting goats with pneumonia to eat grass ahy when they refused to eat much, if any alfalfa.


----------



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

:nooo snowing and 23 here this morning; doesn't look like cocoa will make it outside today.


----------



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

thought I would give today's update...

still no drinking :nooo

slowly munching/nibbling tiny bits of hay; pretty constantly now.

teeth grinding this morning , gave her only .6 cc banamine today--then no teeth grinding at lunch; today is day 6 with banamine. can I just wean her down, or is it becoming critical to get her off it???

SQ'd her almost 300 mL at lunch. Gosh I would be so excited to see her take that first sip of water!!  She smelled it today and put her nose down to it.....then changed her mind--so a little progress.

gave her 5cc vit. b

so, though it isn't much improvement day by day, when I compare where she is now, to when we picked her up Sun., or even mon. morning, it is HUGE improvement. so.... we keep on trucking...

now if I can just keep her warm tonight. still low 20s and snowing; about 5 in. so far. But could be much worse.

good ideas goatkid; thanks. I have tried dried weeds and such that she usually likes.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

great news (no, no water drinking yet :down) but was just out with her and she is eating hay with gusto! Like pulling hay out of the bales around her hut and munching! She also got out of her hut and took a 20 min. tour of the shop by herself, nibbling on everything in site, so I had to follow her around to keep her from eating bad stuff. Her back end seems real weak yet and her first steps she was almost walking on her back pasturns :help2 but then by the end of the 20 min. they were looking a lot better. been down about a week now. progress...progress...now just for the water and I will be really halppy. just had to share.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

This is so good to hear! I am so excited to read of her improvements.

Frankly not too impressed with the attitude that I am hearing from the breeder that you spoke of, especially not when you picked up your goat from her place barely alive. ick. Is this typical for this breeder or is there some kind of crisis going on there?


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

I have been reading this thread avidly....and living it with you. You so deserve credit for pulling this goat through! It is really hard to keep on keeping on, especially when progress is slow, the weather is miserable and you have little ones to care for!

Please keep us updated on her progress.

Camille
P.S. You might try a little pinch of her mineral w/ salt in her mouth to see if that might urge her to drink for you.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

It's interesting that your doe is eating, but not drinking, unless her needs are simply being met by the SQ fluids. According to my vet and my experience, a goat will stop eating before it stops drinking. Does she have access to water, where she's drinking when you don't see her? If this were my goat, I'd have a bucket of water available at all times. I'm so glad she's doing better. Good job.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

thanks for the encouraging words 

more improvements! There was some water sucking; sipping, licking and a little swallowing tonight. I just wanted her to down it, but this is huge, so I was thrilled.

NO, no water is with her; only what I take to her, so she isn't getting any w/o my knowledge. It has been so cold and with her so weak and frail I didn't want her drinking any cold water at all. so I have been going out about every two hours with warm water for her. yes, i wondered about her getting her fluids met with the SQ and I think it was Kaye that mentioned that might hold her up from drinking. But I knew she started out very dehydrated in the beginning, and so I just wanted to give her a good day or two of plenty of fluid. And I always offer her to drink first. she didn't get much fluid today and so will hopefully drink more tomorrow. today is really the first day she has eaten anything of any amount with vigor. still nothing like she would normally eat.

DD had a music concert tonight and we came home to about 4-5 more inches of snow. I am so thankful she is in the shop where no nasty wind can reach her at all; though it will be chilly.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

She sounds as if she is improving greatly right now, tho slow but is improving. I agree with you taking the warm water to her is better than leaving any there as she would possibly tip it over. and then be wet on top of everything else. Just make sure like Kaye said that she isn't getting a urine build up and amonia in her small hut as that in it's self will bring on pneumonia again. tho a different type Good job !! before you know it she will be up and around for good.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia meds help please...and cocoa update.*

still no drinking today. she did take a sip or two or three yesterday, but between friday and sat. just not taking any in and I was giving bare min. SQ fluid. finally decided I better not let her get dehydrated again and gave her 420 mL last night.

NO drinking this morning. She does enjoy a good walk around the shop and nibbling the bales of hay in their, then goes and lays back down in her hay hut. :sigh

didn't give her nuflor last night. she had nuflor a total of 7 days. I will check her in a bit and if no teeth grinding I may see if i can skip her banamine today for the first time also.

On a sad note I lost my anat./pyr. in my avatar two nights ago. He was fine until evening and I put him in the shop with the doe and we came home from dd music program and he had died. I think he must have got into some poison around somebody elses place-none here. he was healthy, young, vaccinated, and perfectly fine that morning. I really miss him a lot. I know the coyotes will move back in now. they got so bad they were walking along the goats fence line, which is just right by our house and we had three that would come into our yard fence and weren't scared by our two outside dogs at all. we also have bears, bobcats and lions and all have been seen real close to our house. goats must smell pretty darn good  I think we will have to get another LGD, but I sure hate to have to start with another one.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

Well, today is day 9 of treatment for this doe kid.

well still no drinking as of tonight. I have opened her hut, so she can come out and wander around the shop and nibble on the hay bales and then she goes back in when she wants to lay down again. she does do this by herself now.

She doesn't eat normally yet. She does nibble alfalfa and grass hay; and has 24 hr. access to both. She can only nibble at alfalfa pellets (which used to be the staple of her diet and she loved) can pick up a few; seems to have trouble getting them swallowed.

She can rise easily by herself now and can walk and is perky and looks as good as can be expected due to the past week.

I skipped her banamine today and she did not grind her teeth, but didn't seem as lively as yesterday. was worrying as she had 7days of it.

she still coughs but not as bad now, but sometimes rattles a little following a cough.

Today I left some water in the shop for her in a meassured amount; she didn't touch it. she wouldn't sip any of the warm water I took her. I know it doesn't amount to much, but tonight I syringed in 7 x 65cc sryinges and she willingly swallowed.

still trying not to get discouraged with her, but beginning to wonder if after all this her improvement will stop. don't know what to think of her now.

I did not give her nuflor tonight; don't know if that was the right decision. she had nuflor sun. night through sat. night, so 7 days.

still on vit. b.


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

I would try a day without the sub q fluids and maybe try putting her with some other goats. If they are isolated from other goats that can make them depressed. If she is with other goats doing what goats do, maybe she will want to "be part of the herd" and do what they are doing. If she is getting around well now and she has all of those antibiotics in her she should be o.k. to be out with them for a few hours I would think.

You have done an exception job with this doe.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

thanks for the suggestions.

I have been really 'starving' the doe of the SQ fluids on and off the past several days. but after two days of no drinking I get nervous about dehydrating again and give her some more. :sigh

I have thought a lot about her getting depressed. but our weather has not been pleasant this past week. snow over the weekend and we are 22 degrees right now with more snow blowing sideways; about 9 in. on the ground at this point. Our new goat shed is pretty out of the weather and all, but there are goat sized cut-outs left open to the outside and it is not near as snug as her hut in the shop. don't know what to do at this point. the weather this week doesn't look real promising. but I am about stumped with her now.


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

Well hang in there, I'm trying to blow some of this warm front up there toward ya.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

Thanks Christine that would be nice :yes We have a big pot of beans and ham cooking on the stove and the fire is keeping us nice and toasty.

The goat shed only has a few cups of snow in it in one small place where I ran out of my spray insulation, but all the rest is dry and draft free (my husband thought I was pretty comical decorating the new shed up with my spray insulation; it looks like a frosted cake--I got every crack--except where I ran out). But the goats seem happy, dry and munching their pellets; so I am sooo pleased!

cocoa on the other hand.....

still wont drink for me. seems a bit more congested this morning while breathing with some more coughing going on. Was grinding her teeth a bit also. Wouldn't eat in front of me, but was chewing a little cud. I opened the door to the nasty outdoor world so she could see her goat friends, but she refused to go out :lol smart goat.

I think maybe I could give her more banamine today since she has been off for two days today?? debating giving her .5cc; don't know. think i will redo her bo-se also. not sure about antibiotic. :sigh


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

Finally, got a call to go through to person I was trying to reach.

No more Nuflor. You can skip a couple days and either go with Naxcel,Excenel or Bio-Mycin. Bio-Mycin being the lowest drug for resp. infection. Bio-Mycin can be given for up to 14 days, but can leave injection site knots.

Banamine... if you NEED to give it after the 5 days...drop the doses to 1/2 or even 1/4th the weight dose. Dose according to severity of pain. Banamine will cause gastric ulcers if used for extended length of time.(Note-the drop dose was for my benefit, cause they KNOW I don't give up easy and will medicate according to goat's pain levels.) :blush

The extended use of fluids,unless you are overdosing, will cause no ill-efects.

This is what I got for you. I was warned to not go any further with the Nuflor. Was also told...you've come from a dead goat to a live one eating a little on it's on. It's going to take time for her system to re-coup.  Course,we already knew that. :really
Kaye


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

*Thanks so much Kaye*; I really do appreciate your efforts on my behalf.

I will see if she can get through another day with no banamine. this will be her third.

not overdoing the fluids, so I guess will continue to give her a little each day. I will re-check but think I read on this site for her weight would be 400 mL max 1-3 x/day. last few days I have been only giving around 400 total thinking she might drink.

I will have to see about getting some naxcel or excenel. We do have bio-mycin on hand along with penn and micotil (for the cows; I know not to use it). Not sure when we can get to the vet now, but maybe in the next few days.

Ya, I keep reminding myself it is like recouperating from a terrible sickness; just takes a lot of time. I just wish she would sip some water for me.

once again;
*really appreciate your time.*


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

If you think she needs to be returned to antibiotics, then go with the Bio-Mycin. It will also go to the lungs to help a little with the pnuemonia. You should be able to tell if the infection is starting again with a rise in her temperature. I wouldn't even start antibiotics unless her fever gets 103.5 or above. The Nuflor has the ability to stay in the system(serum levels) for several days...reason for the withdrawal. Now, how long? I don't know. Reason to take temp before banamine.

Be sure and keep up with her B vitamins...object now is to get her rumen going again (I noticed you said she was cudding-great sign) and even with the probios and ect...she needs these B Vitamins. They will go through the bloodstream into the rumen.

Keep going...you're doing great.
Kaye


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

While working on getting her rumen going again, what about kefir?


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

well, I had my husband call my FIL as he was in town today and will be this way tomorrow evening again, so he picked up some excenel. then came back on and read your post about the bio-mycin. but better to have it, then need it in a few days and not be able to get to town for it. Ok, so you wouldn't do more antibiotic unless fever >103.5.

Not sure about kefir? have read about it, but can't even remember what it is right this second :blush. some sort of milk product or by-product. will look it up. don't have much in the way of extra milk right now though.

Yes, she has been chewing a little cud a few times now. Not a nice big cud, but still a little one. I have noticed she has horentous gas and has belched a few times and you can smell it when she opens her mouth or coughs.

will keep on keeping on...  had to cancel the NM trip tomorrow  but only partly due to the doe...also due to the snow and cattle ect...and the kids have a cold right now also.

current temp.==102.8


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

well if you don't already make kefir then don't even worry abt it just keep using probios


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe...still not drinking *

We have found that the very best way to jump start a rumen is by stealing cud from an older very healthy doe and giving it to your sick goat.

Watch your fingers!

We are all pulling for you and Cocoa. Keep telling yourself she is convalescing...so you don't get discouraged.

Camille


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-no drinking-temp 103.3 *

Thanks Camille; haven't stolen any cud yet :biggrin

===============================

today was another day of NO drinking.

STill hay nibbling and some more improvement with A. pellet nibbling also.

still wanders around the shop and seems perky--well, maybe not perky, but alert and responsive.

still snow on the ground, but nice, sunny not windy morning and took her out to see the other doelings-her friends-she seemed to enjoy smelling them but they wanted to but her around and play so I didn't want to leave her in the same pen. I did take her to each water tub outside and she wouldn't take a drink.

Left her out to stand in the sun for a while until she got tired and layed in the snow and took her back in the shop; then the blasted wind started up again with a vengence. she wandered around the shop in the pm and nibbled hay and pellets.

Last two days she has been spending more time wandering around then laying in her hut :biggrin.

gave her the vit. b today and SQ'd more fluids this evening. oh darn, forgot the bo-se; do that tomorrow.

tonight her temp was 103.3 she was in the shop and it wasn't very warm in there; comfortable with a big coat and coveralls, but not warm 

still coughing a bit and a bit congested also.

As of tonight we have a bottle of excenel. will take her temp in the morning, but seemed up a bit tonight compared to last night.

thoughts about starting more antibiotic tomorrow? thoughts about this doe's lack of interest in water?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-no drinking-temp 103.3 *

have you given her a pinch of salt on her tongue? Would think it would make her thristy and ck her temp this morning try and take her temp at the same time every day as it will flux. keep up the B Vit BoSE and Vit C also a shot of A/D might be in order.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-no drinking-temp 103.3 *

Thanks again for the help Sondra, haven't put any salt on her tongue, but their is a tub of salt sitting in the shop and she has been nibbling at that daily now.

==============

re-did the bo-se tonight

tonight's temp--been taking it at night and always in the shop was *103.7* The shop was colder tonight than last night, not sure of temp., but I could see my breath very well. 14 degrees out right now. And she was not in her hut yet, so shouldn't be higher than past two nights. tues night--102.8, wed. night 103.3.

Her spirits seem higher. She wanted out of the shop this morning and followed me over to the goat shed and even jumped up on the low stand in the milk house  She spent most the day lying in the sun in my feeding alley of my goat shed, then took her back to the shop this pm when got colder. still snow on the ground.

*She still would not drink today *  Pretty much everytime I see her now she is chewing either pellets, hay or a little cud. First time tonight I heard her actually chew a few pellets; normally she sort of swallows only.

She called to me the last two times I entered the shop tonight!

Her sickness has of course taken a huge toll on her body. She is an absolute skeleton now.

I SQ'd her more fluid tonight. I am having a hard time keeping the fluid from running out of the puncture hole now. Last week I could get an easy 100 mL/site with hardly any running out. Now I can't hardly get a 60 mL syringe full in a site and have to really work hard to keep it from coming out. Not sure if this is due to her skeletal condition and tight skin now???

*Well, Kaye you said temp. of 103.5 or higher, so at 103.7 tonight, I gave her the excenel. gave 2 mL SQ ; dairy info. site says for 5 days. Is this correct dose and SQ is ok, or IM?*

thanks again :/ Hopefully I will quit posting soon about this!

oh ya, she didn't seem as congested today while she was coughing.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

Yes, SQ can be done with excenel. She's still not spiked a fever, if she felt like doing all that moving around. But, since she's in a comprimised state...I guess I'd have to do the same.

Yes, the course for Naxcel or Excenel is 5 days. If you're fluids are running out the holes and you haven't gone through the skin :blush then she is adequately hydrated. You can tell a dehydrated goat by the feel of the skin...parchment like and it's dehydrated. Soft and pliable...she hydrated.

You do realize that with excersize she is going to have a little higher temp. It also stimulates the rumen to work better = more body heat. It's a wonderful sign that she's cudding. Just keep up with the care you're giving her and no banamine unless she shows you signs of pain. You don't want to mask a real temp with it. I still don't understand the no drinking...unless the fluids meeting her needs and she's not having to hydrate herself by drinking.?
Kaye


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

Ok Kaye, thanks again; I will do the 2 mL SQ excenel for 5 days. I have not heard her grinding her teeth for two or three days now. She seemed down for two or so days when I quit her banamine, but seems to have recovered from that now.

No I am not poking clear through the skin with the needle. Not sure how she could be hydrated really. Hasn't drank even a sip of water for days and days now and I was trying to skimp on her SQ fluid so she would want to drink and have only been giving her around 400 SQ every night...after a day of still no drinking. 400 seems very minimal to me and don't see how that would be fulfilling all her needs. I am starting to get real bummed with her and her no drinking. she won't even get near water. If there was a way to force drinking I would do it!!

I try not to be discouraged with her slow progress, but every night when I sit and update this thread with her improvements of the day I realize she has a few improvements every single day and that is enough to keep me going. We are about to hit the two week mark on this goat now though :sigh


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

Have you tried putting molasses in warm water for her? Just wondering, I am so sorry this has happened to you and your doe.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

Thanks Autumn.

Yes, unfortunately I have tried putting just about everything I can think of in her water and have tried many different temps.; doesn't seem to encourage her :sigh All the other girls are loving their warm water in this cold weather, but not this gal.


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

So sorry...I wished I could be more help..


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

I am sure most of you are sick of hearing about cocoa :yeahthat

But for those of you who are wondering,

Her temp tonight was 103.7

Gave her the excenel 2nd. dose tonight.

She refused any water today

The weather was blowing snow all day, so she couldn't go out, but she walked _briskly _ around the shop today and_ talked to me _ everytime I came in!

She spends most all of her time walking around munching hay and alfalfa and a. pellets--which she has free access to in the shop; I hardly ever see her lying down now.

Last two days I have left a measured amount of water out for her; but she never drinks it.

Tonight I gave her a flake of grass hay of my husbands' horses and their was some sort of leafy weed in it that she was very excited about and munched and munched on. She audibly crunched down on the hay with her back teeth which is big progress for her.

I saw her pee three times during my night chores tonight, so she must be pretty hydrated . I skipped the SQ fluid tonight. I syringed in a bunch of water, just to remind her how to swallow it :biggrin

Feel pretty good about her progress tonight, but gosh is it slow,slow,slow... I feel guilty about taking up so much space on this forum, but it sure is nice to be able to vent and get help with this situation; thanks.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

Oh she does sound better I bet she is just well hydrated right now. 
Please don't worry abt taking up space Sick goats /health and help is why Vicki has this forum.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

"slow,slow,slow... I feel guilty about taking up so much space on this forum, "
I personally hope you keep posting at least once a day.....though I have been no help to you, you are helping some of us learn, as I am monitoring and taking notes with the ups and downs with this case.

So Thanks, Whim.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

I'm glad you're keeping us updated on Cocoa. It's great that she continues to improve.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

Thanks for the encouragement.

Cocoa is out in my feed alley again today as it is in the mid 30s and sunny and warm right now.

She did not drink anything yesterday and I did not give her any fluids either. This morning she refused my water I took to her. Followed me over to do my chores and left her in the feed alley with the other goats all chowing their pellets. Left her pellets and alfalfa and grass hay; she was eating the grass hay and seems to still prefer it. She is alert and walks with a quick step. She looks real rough and is pretty drawn up and looking more dehydrated now. Saw her pee yesterday but nothing this morning.

Came in and was watching her out the window and she stuck her head though the fence and drank some icy cold water out of one of the goat tubs!! So I rush out and fill up a tub where she is and she of course balks at that idea. I left her again and she was eating snow  Maybe she is figuring it out now.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

YEAH!!


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

Shes been sneaking water ! The goat has your number . As long as you think she is still sick she is getting pampered !!!! Glad to hear she is doing better .

Patty


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*



Patty13637 said:


> Shes been sneaking water ! The goat has your number . As long as you think she is still sick she is getting pampered !!!! Glad to hear she is doing better .
> 
> Patty


 Oh if only that was the answer I would be doing like this guy :rofl

Today I have her outside and she can go lay in my feeding alley in the shed--I left the doog open. But all this time she has been in the shop where there isn't any access to water. But hopefully she is on the up and up now and I can say goodbye to those darn SQ fluids  She sure is eager to get out and about now while before she wouldn't/couldn't walk outside the shop; just stayed in their with the door open.

Improvements...improvements... :biggrin


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

Just be thankfull it was on a goat . My daughters cat got hit in the head by a car. Poor little thing lived 2 weeks on sub Q injections and being force fed goats milk . The brain swelling has gone down and we ar on week 5 he can even walk now . He does fall over every once in awhile. Poor cat looks like he is drunk.

Patty


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

Well, hope your daughter's cat makes it.

But, The sad part is, it is my 3 yr old's goat :sniffle

3 yr. old has had a bad year.

He got attatched to two little goat kids that he wanted to keep, but that got sold in the summer,

he got a kitten in June who then died.

Since the kitten died we told him the LGD could be his...and he just loved that dog SO much...and the dog died last weekend...

since he had to sell his goat kids, we told him he could have a new one when we purchased one in the summer and he picked out cocoa for his own, and now she has been on her death bed :sniffle

He keeps asking why _his dog _ had to die??? sister has a dog and a cat and a goat that are perfectly healthy, brother has a cat and fish and a goat that are perfectly healthy. this poor little bugger is having a bad year.


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

Give the little bugger a hug . Its so hard when your childs pet. Looks like the goat will make it .

Patty


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

"she stuck her head though the fence and drank some icy cold water out of one of the goat tubs!!"

This statement rings a bell here......Most of my goats will drink out of the water bucket that they are most familiar with. It makes no difference how many buckets of water that I put out there, they will refuse to drink out of them as long as they can get to their old favorite watering hole (bucket). It's got to be a mental thing, but hey, thats considered normal around here. :crazy


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

I'm glad Cocoa is doing so much better. I once had a doe who had pneumonia for what seemed like a long time, in spite of my catching it right away. It was hard for her to put her head down to eat and drink when she was congested and the other goats were picking on her. She kept eating grass hay when I gave her special attention and drank her water. She still lost weight, but quickly put it back on as she healed. Now that Cocoa is on the mend, should start looking better.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

I figured she would prefer to drink out of her familiar tubs, so last week when she could first hobble around I took her out to them; what normally would have taken 30 sec. to walk to her about 15 minutes to get their and then she refused any. I have been trying her regular tubs and up until yesterday she wouldn't have anything to do with them.

Last night I tried more water with molasses in it and she refused it; started to wonder if the molasses was nasty and took it to another goat who licked it dry! :rofl

She has just got to keep me on my toes I guess. She wanted out of the shop real bad last night and as I was headed towards the shop door she broke into a trot behind me!

Yes, she definitely has trouble swallowing. She still can't hardly manage her a. pellets and all the trouble with the water. She is eating grass hay really well but won't really touch some real good alfalfa hay. Glad she has such a nice thick coat of hair; I would cringe to see her shaved down right now. :sigh

I am getting real hopeful about her, but haven't convinced myself she is out of the woods quite yet, until I see her able to drink more. But gosh she is so close now. then I can celebrate :biggrin


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-today temp. 103.7 & no H2O*

How about soaking the grass hay in water and sprinkling a little salt on it . the salt will make her thirsty , the soaking will up her fluid intake also. you can try soaking pellets also . Sometimes when its cold the love a nice wet mash.

Have you checked to make sure she doesn't have something in her mouth or throat ? A sliver maybe ?

Patty


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking water again!*

Thanks for the suggestions Patty.

She is eating out of the salt tub in the shop, so that is good. Tried the soaked pellets and she wouldn't touch them :sigh

HOwever, my good news is: let her out into the shop this morning--too windy and cold to let her out with her friends so far today; blowing the ground snow all over...brr. Left her the usual pitcher full of luke warm water and after chores went into the shop and there was probably two cups gone out of it--I have lines to measure  * I am so thrilled!* She acts great. She was even working on a few a. pellets when I left the shop. She would grab one in her mouth and throw her head up to swallow; so still having some trouble there, but much much improvement. :yes

Thanks and thanks! ; *I am so excited * this girl will surely make it now!!! :woohoo


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## Melissa (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking water again!*

yeeeeaaaaa!!!! I have been so worried about this little girl. so sorry about your sons dog and the 4legged kids being sold.

-Melissa


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking water again!*

Oh now that sounds good (drinking water on her own)


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## baileybunch (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking water again!*

Would wet beet pulp help to get more fluid in her? Also, it is a highly digestable feed. We are feeding our milk does beet pulp in the morning wetted with hot water. Spoiled, I know, but it warms them up, too!


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking water again!*

Great news.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking water again!*

Even better news!!

Went out for my night chores and stopped in at the shop with some fresh warm water and there was cocoa, calling to me from the *top of the haystack * in the shop!!! She was looking out the windows at her friends :rofl I couldn't believe she had gotten herself up there. I had to lift her down and after lifting her realized she is probably down to 60 lbs. at the most now--she was 85 the end of OCT.

But the other great news was her 1 gal. pitcher of water was down by a third and she stuck her head in my bucket of warm water and drank at least half a gal.!!!!! She drank like normal like there was never a problem!!

I just hugged her!

just wanted to share the great news :biggrin


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

:handclap :handclap :woohoo


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

Yippie!!!! :handclap


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## Melissa (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

how wonderful!!!!!!

-Melissa


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

Great job !


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

That is just wonderful! :woohoo


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

Finally over the hump.....that's good news!!!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

update for today PLEASE.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

Yep...gotta' know! 
This dad blasted doe is going to live-period!! You've spent too many days poking holes in her and me sitting here worrying over her! :biggrin
Kaye


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## Keeperofmany (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

I have been following this topic and am so relieved :sigh that Cocoa is finally drinking water and missing her friends. Way ta go.

Wendy


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## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

Wow, I started tearing up. This is so exciting for you. And we are happy for you too. wahoo


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

Fantastic! I love a happy ending!

Camille


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

I've stayed with the story also. Glad you stayed with it, and it turned out ok.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-drinking & doing well!!!*

Figured you could use a break after the hourly update on cocoa the past two weeks. Can't believe it was 15 days before she started drinking again.

*Thank you all for the kind words, and help! Thank you Kaye for all your help!*

Cocoa is spending her 2nd. night out in my feeding alley. She is right between the milkers on one side and the other doe kids on the other side. She has a 5 ft. x 12 ft. area where I have hay, pellets and water. I will get a pic. of her tomorrow; she is happy to be in the midst of her friends again and has a sheltered place. She is still slow with the drinking, but getter a little better each day. She is much better with the pellet eating today however and seems to be really enjoying them again; slowly. Tonight was her first night of *NO SHOTS AT ALL.* Gosh if I had only counted the holes I put in that girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My husband admitted to me last night he thought there was no way  she would live; he just didn't want to tell me that at the time  I really can't believe she is still alive either however. Each morning I prepared myself mentally that she would be dead when I entered the shop--still doing this , but now Cocoa greets me with her voice before I even get near her and I go...phew!  First morning I sent husband out, because I didn't want to find her dead, so I waited w/my head out the house door for his thumbs down, only to get a ...she's still alive :really

Now, will be getting some meat back on that girl; wonder just how long this will take?

thanks again.

ETA: forgot to say she still has a cough, but not very congested sounding now and breathes freely. She has come such a long ways and gosh is so sweet even after all the heck she has gone through.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa update!*

It never fails to amaze me what a little faith, love, and hard work will do. 
Merry Christmas to you, Whim.


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## Keeperofmany (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa update!*

Well Merry Merry Christmas to you and your family. What a nice present. What a rough ride and to come out the other side a winner. Well I just want to cry again.

Wendy


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa update!*

Wonderful!!! you did a great job with her.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa update!*

So yesterday morning went to do my chores. All the girls were greeting me and was waiting for Cocoa's greeting from the shed...instead I hear this maaaaa! maaaaa! I think, 'Oh geeze, now what?!' open the door and she is standing in her feed tub full of hay and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa and flagging her tail wildly! I lift her tail thinking you crazy goat you almost died last week, surely you are not in heat, but sure enough she is!! :nooo

Since she was jumping into her feed tubs, I thought maybe I should try her for the morning in the doe kid pen, so I put her in there and she promptly walked up towards the buck pen!!! The kid pen comes near the buck pen with a 12 foot gap between. The site of watching her scrawny body still so unsteady on her feet wobbling up towards the buck in such excitement was quite pitiful!!! I told her she better get her rear end down into the shed and eat her breakfast, but she wouldn't hear of it!! So she got her scrawny rear end locked back in the feed alley with her pellets and hay and told she better gain some weight before she starts thinking about boys again!! :naughty

I told my husband few days ago I thought cocoa was coming into heat and he said it would be a pretty good goat to come into heat in that condition. I said, ya, surely not!


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa IN HEAT!*

At least you know she's on the mend :biggrin :handclap


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa IN HEAT!*

I definately wouldn't breed her at this point! Give her time to heal her body before you ask her to work,again. 
Kaye


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## Whitney (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa IN HEAT!*

Glad to hear she is better.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa IN HEAT!*

Ya, I never considered breeding her; just thought it was amazing that she is in heat in her condition. She has a ways to go before breeding 
=================================

Today Cocoa had a hard time 

The wind picked up in the middle of the night last night and was snowing a bit and real blizzardy and even though our goat shed is so well closed in and sealed it is more like a barn with 2 goat sized cut-outs the wind still managed to chill her quite a bit. Today was around 27 degrees, but it was sunny and she spent all day re-couperating from the bad cold night. She is still not acting anything nearly as good as she has been the past few days. The wind is up again tonight, so cocoa got to go back into the shop, and she actually seemed a bit relieved to be back in there. Guess she might have to spend some of her nights in there until she fattens up a bit and can maintain better body temps. She wouldn't drink this morning or all day, but did drink some warm water tonight and was munching hay when I left.


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa IN HEAT!*

Glad to hear she is improving, keeping the prayers coming....


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa got cold last night.*

thanks Autumn!

Gosh I am so so so thankful I put her in the shop tonight; the wind is just howling horribly out right now and it's only 13, so probably not too pleasant. darn, blasted wind!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa got cold last night.*

yep I would keep her in the shop when it is bad out.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying.*

:help Cocoa has really been struggling since she got chilled last Friday night. She has slowly slipped. WEnt off her pellets, then last two days not eating hay very well and then not drinking yesterday. She has been in the shop day and night except yesterday when it was nice and sunny I put her out for a while. She has gone down in will also and though she does rise by herself still that is about it. We tucked her in her hay house and covered her with blankets last night. I have been giving her fluids the past two days again. I have still been giving the vit. B and redid the bo-se again yesterday.

supposed to snow all day today.

This morning her temperature had plummeted to 96.1 I really didn't want to bring her in as I knew it would be real hard on her to put her back out eventually, but I know this is it and so I have her near the wood stove in a lrg. dog cage. Her eyes are still bright though a bit glossy now, bit of foamy froth on her chin this morning and her ears are a bit droopy. She seemed thrilled with the stove (we have a fan that blows hot air that you can turn up or down) I let her stand in front of the fan for a few minutes. Her temp was 96.5 a few minutes after she had been in. but after she went into the cage she started hollering horribly and we thought that was going to be it. I suppose she was warming up too fast. She is still with us, but it doesn't look good.

What more can I do for her? Just more fluids? IV instead? I don't know if it was the right decision or not, but I put her back on Nuflor last night. I think I really messed up putting her out too soon, I was just worrying she was getting depressed locked in the shop when she was feeling better there for a while. Man she is about to get me down :sniffle I feel so badly for her. She keeps on plugging along and just as I let my guard down and thought she was on the road to recovery than this.

thoughts??? :help

ETA: temp is up to 97.5 . She is lying in the cage and seems a little more responsive and eyes not as glossy. I am warming some more fluids for her should be ready in a min.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

I'm so sorry to hear she is sicker again. Is your vet good with goats? You've done everything I would have thought to do. Maybe the vet could help her. I'm also wondering if the cud of a healthy goat would help. When Miracle got so sick with milk fever a couple years ago. the cud is what saved her.


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## Becky-DixieDoesAlpines (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

So sorry that she is not doing well today. Hugs and prayers 
Becky


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

I personally would see if she would drink some very raw goat milk about now (I would like it straight from the udder if possible)....milk temp at about 99 to 100 degrees. If she would drink it, I would only start with about 2 cups.....wait 2 hours, and give 2 more cups. I think I would see what is going on at that time before staying with it or stopping. If this happened to work, I think you would see some marked improvement within 24 hrs....maybe sooner.
Since you are kinda grabbing at straws now, I don't think that you've got a lot of options left.

Best wishes for a better outcome, Whim.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

well her temp is up to 103.5 now. I haven't had time to nurse her today.

*I have been side-tracked with a much more concerning problem. we got a visit from the social services and the sherriff this morning. this is concerning the treatment of my 6 yr. old son's diabetes. this is all because of one dr. that he went to in the summer that disagreed with his treatment plan. we are now seeing another specialist and the ped. is on board with his treatment. Please pray for our family please; we are very upset by this morning and not knowing what is going to happen next.*

thanks whim; she is back to refusing to drink anything willingly.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

Oh, man....why does CPS seem to get in involved with children that are being cared for, when there are soooo many that are not!

My suggestion on that doe....keep her warm. Fluids to get her kidneys going again, and no antibiotics unless she spikes a fever. She's had enough antibiotics to ward off any infection for several weeks. She's just needing supportive care to get some meat back on her bones and be able to generate her own heat. Work on getting her rumen back up in shape.

So sorry this is happening to you at this time.
Kaye


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## Whitney (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

So sorry about the social services visit.  That is one of the most stressful things I can imagine.

Sorry too that your doe has relapsed.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

Since this is a family show, and V. would whoop my butt for saying what is on my mind......I'll reserve comment on our social services bunch.
BTW- the last time that I had a sick doe, it wouldn't drink water either....but took a bottle of milk like a starved kid. Started getting better within 12 hours.

Prayers are headed your way....cause you're in need....and I hate the devil anyway.

Whim.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

So sorry you have to deal with freakin cps. Of all the baloney you have to deal with right now, that is the last thing you need. Keep up the good fight with your doe and don't let "the man" keep you down.


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

Praying.

Patty


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

That's crazy that CPS would bother you since your child is receiving medical care. They'd be better off hanging out in the retail stores where kids are roller skating and doing other unsafe things while their parents neglect them to shop. These kids are putting thier safety and the safety of others in danger. It seems your son is receiving wonderful care. I know your goat is, too. The best to you all.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

WEll darn but keep up the sq fluids and you might just try a baby bottle of milk I had one to that that was all I had to treat her for Hypocalcimia so forced the first bottle and after that it was katy bar the door as she wanted that bottle Older doe who had never had a bottle. just make sure and warn it so her body temp stays up. Hang in there CPS can do some of the damnest things at times but remember the doc turned you in so they do need to follow up on that. Since they now know you have other doctors it should resolve it's self. Prayers go out to you.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is dying/temp.96.1*

Thank you all for the thoughts and prayers for our family; please keep the prayers coming we really need them right now. I am going to take this subject to the off topic section.

Cocoa's temp was 103.4 tonight. She is in a bad state, but that girl just keeps on keeping! I SQ'd her more fluid tonight and it dissapated immediately. She peed tonight also. She also drank eagerly several cups of warm water. Tried to give her a baby bottle of milk and she had a fit; poured it in a bowl-8oz and she drank it dry :biggrin and wants more. will give a little more in a bit. Hasn't had much attention today, just been laying in the cage by the fire. Her eyes look a bit sunken :down. Will see if the gal makes it through the night. She doesn't have anything in the way of reserves to get her through this time; she's in such a bad state.

kaye-thanks, won't do anymore antibiotic.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is still w/us;temp.103.4*

Glad she drank it for you know that feeding milk to an adult is rather unorthodox but hey it is nourishment. Keep up the sq fluids tho. 
Hope she is doing better this morning.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is still w/us;temp.103.4*

Yep, I think unorthodox is what it's gonna take in this case.....Of course, I'm a kill 'em, or cure 'em kinda person when something drags on like this.
IMO- I'd give her some more milk at this point, and I would offer her some more about 3 times a day.......you're gonna have to use your better judgement on how much to let her have at a time now.
Hope she made it through the night.

Whim.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is still w/us;temp.103.4*

hoping she is still with you this morning.

re cps--even tho it isnt a homeschool issue, hslda will help you deal with cps, making sure that your civil liberties arent trampled as cps takes the 'innocent until proven guilty' stance and I have heard cps SW say that people being investigated by them "dont HAVE constitutional rights".


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-Cocoa is still w/us;temp.103.4*

thank you all.

i am trying my best to give cocoa attention, but i am pretty well booked up today with the other situation we have on hand. you can see the off topic board for an update.

cocoa looks like death warmed over. Her eyes are not as sunken today and she will drink small --12 oz. of warm milk periodically. we got her out and she peed three minutes straight this morning and we changed her hay in the cage; though it wasn't wet. I just don't know what will become of her if we have to go to denver with son if he is forced to be hospitalized. we will probably have to put her down, as there isn't anyone to care for her. She seems better than yesterday; haven't taken a temp. She is just a skeleton now and there isn't even any meat left on her head.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-please pray for us*

we had to put cocoa down this am

now we have to take son to lab for three blood draws and glucose test :sniffle


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-please pray for us*

Oh am so sorry 
Please take care of yourselves!!


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-please pray for us*

Very sorry for the loss of Cocoa. From reading this thread you have done everything possible for her. 
I know from experience about Dr.s with Lindsey. Sometimes they do think they are God, and here is what I tell them " If you think you are all that knowing fix my kid!" We all know there are no miracle cures for Diabetes or CP and as parents we make the best decisions we can for our children. When Dr.s start being pushy it is time to get rid of them. Where you have other medical help CPS should see beyond that awful Dr.s report. Hang in there and We're praying for you all. Tammy


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-please pray for us*

:down :down :down


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-please pray for us*

Awe Kassie, I'm so sorry :down I really can't imagine anymore you could have done :sniffle


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-please pray for us*

So sorry you lost her. You did your best.


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## goatmom (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-please pray for us*

So sorry -my heart is hurting for you..you and Cocoa both worked so hard to overcome this ...am praying for you.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-please pray for us*

So sorry you lost this doe. She knew she was loved all the way to the end, and there's not much more any of us can do than that. Prayers for you and your family.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: pneumonia doe-please pray for us*

Thank you all for your thoughts. I didn't have time this morning to say I want to thank you all for your dedication and your help and especially for the support. we had a long haul with cocoa and I really hoped she could overcome it, but alas. I feel confident that we made the right decision. she had not eaten a thing on her own all week long, she was starting to drool out more than she was swallowing in and as of this morning she could not stand. :sniffle I didn't want her to suffer any more.

so, I guess this thread will now end on a sad note. I will update the off topic thread.


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm sorry.


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## Becky-DixieDoesAlpines (Oct 26, 2007)

Really sorry. Praying for you about your son and doe.
Hugs,
Becky


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2008)

I'm sorry too :sniffle


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