# Quints?



## Guest (Dec 29, 2007)

I am having some trouble with my big 7yr old doe. She is due 2/10 this is her 7th freshening, she had twins as a yearling and has had triplets or quads every year since. She was in perfect shape when she was bred in Sept. She previously freshened 12/15/16 so milked for 2 weeks shy of a year. She had a touch of milk fever a week after her last freshening but it was caught early and promptly brought under control. Last week I suspected she was going to go off, she missed a couple feedings, but then she went back to the alfalfa pellets again.

Well, now she is not eating her pellets very well, just a couple of bites. For a week I have had her on 30cc CMPK injectable twice a day, 5cc B complex fortified eod, 5cc ADE injectable eod, Nutra Drench 2X day, probios once a day. She is huge. Her girth has grown so much in the past week I can not get my sewing tape around her belly. Best I could measure it is 65”. She is 30” at the shoulder and has only 9” clearance from the ground to her belly. Even years when she has had quads she could always fit through the small goat door that keeps the llama out of their goat yard, today I noticed she can’t fit through it anymore. I took her out the big door so we could go for a walk and get some much needed exercise. She willing came with me because I had peanuts. But since the ice storm the are lots of trees down and she can’t get over them, we didn’t get very far. At the beginning of the month she was standing on her hind legs at the hay feeder looking normal big 

Have those of you who have had quints or very large quads noticed calcium related problems late pregnancy? Anything else I should be doing for her? How precarious do you think my situation is with this doe?

Christy


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2007)

We get several sets of quads every year (Even old Torrie had quads this year... at age 10!). I've only ever had one set of quints... our 2002 ADGA Spotlight Sale purchase, GCH Lakeshore Farms Just-Tina 5*M had quints as a first freshening 2 year-old. She wasn't big in the least, in fact I thought she was going to have twins. She popped out 5 happy, healthy kids that were all 6+ pounds. She never missed a beat and even carried an appropriate amount of fleshing. She DID milk really well that year!

We haven't had the problems you mention. As you said, exercise is sooo important. Although we live in the frozen north, I make my girls exercise. I will feed grass and oat hay inside the barn but to get the alfalfa the girls have to walk outside to the pasture. We use a snowblower to make paths to the outside feeders. We also get lots of ice here, especially in the coming months. I sprinkle turkey grit on the paths twice a day to provide some 'grip' so they don't injure themselves. This works very well for us. Nubians and LaManchas love to eat so feeding alfalfa outside certainly works for us. 

Perhaps someone with more experience in this will chime in. Good luck with her Christy.

Sara


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Dove had quads as a 2 year old 2nd freshener last year, shocking because although out of a quad litter herself, expecting her to triplet, she was no larger than anyone else. Debut, her dam had quints last year, our first one that all kids lived, but didn't have any problems, she was 6.

With the bout of milk fever, and now this, there is something about her or your program that is not meeting the needs of heavy milkers or heavy bred does. Is she on grain? Is she getting soo much she has stopped eating her alfalfa pellets? What protein are you at with your grain and alfalfa? Too much protein and they aren't able to utilize all the calcium you feed.

Since calcium is cumulative, you may have to keep up the calcium until freshening and through to kidding, or next she will be in ketosis, and your only way out of it is to abort the pregnancy.

Whats the breakdown of your diet for your milkers? Vicki


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2007)

I also have a lot of quads and trips out of 1stff and 2ndff 2yr olds, yearlings have twins. 

I feed 50lbs of 16% alfalfa to 12 does, 25lbs in the morning and 25 in the evening. They get this everyday milking or bred. At 100 days bred I wormed with Ivermectin Plus. At that point I started with the grain. It is not much, 2lbs mixed with 25lbs alfalfa twice a day, for all of them. They have Sweetlix minerals and grass hay. They have been bolused every four months according to weight. My grain mix is,
6 parts oats
6 parts barley
1 part black oil sunflower seeds
1 part calf manna
1 part beet pulp-dry

When the does are in milk they get 11/2 -2lbs of grain a day. I know it is not much but they give 10-12lbs a day and are fleshed out nicely on that amount. 

Today we cut the goat door bigger and cut limbs to make a nice walking trail. I don’t usually give my goats a lot of treats but they will do anything for peanuts. So, that is how I get them out for a walk since the weather has been so bad. I can pin point her trouble to the ice storm, which may have stressed her and also they were unable to get out for a few days.

Thanks,
Christy


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

She sounds huge! I wonder if she could have excess amnio fluid or something?? I know that can make it hard for them to take in the calories they need. No first hand experience with that myself tho..
I have a doe that has had 2 sets of quints and a few sets of quads. She gets very large-but all out to the side. she does have a very hard time getting up and down towards the end, but never any milk fever issues or going off feed.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Their diet sounds wonderful. Perhaps you could give her more of a grain ration than the others? Bo-se shots monthly for awhile, and is she eating her minerals well? Any swelling in the feet yet? Vicki


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Isis had quints one year. She started to go off feed about three days prior to kidding. I gave her propylene glycol to keep her going. Right after she kidded, she ate lots of hay and some grain. The next day, she was depresses and wouldn't eat. The vet gave her B complex, BoSe and Norcalciphos. He said the fluid loss from having 5 kids was part of the cause of the MF. She recovered.Last spring I lost a doe to MF four days after she had quads. I didn't catch it soon enough and she didn't respond when I treated her. Neither of these does had any problems when they had 2 or 3 kids. From now on, any goat who has 4 or more kids gets Norcalciphos the first few days after kidding.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2007)

I checked her feet and legs, no swelling and pasterns are holding up well. 

She has been eating the minerals. She was at the mineral feeder tonight while the others ate the pellets. 

I offered her some grain (when the others weren’t looking) she just licked up a bit, not even ¼ cup. Poor girl, she is not happy  

I’ll talk to the vet tomorrow about the BoSe. Last time I asked him for it he said we weren’t in a deficient area and wouldn’t give it to me :twisted

Thanks for the infor about Isis. What is Norcalciphos?

Christy


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## Nancy (Oct 25, 2007)

Try to give her a dose of the glycol. I friend of mine has an older doe that is not due until Feb. but she has also gone off feed. She has been giving the glycol once a day and she is eating again.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

http://www.pfizerah.com/product_overview.asp?drug=NC&country=US&lang=EN&species=DA


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Giving propolyne glycol orally for any length of time is going to burn her espophogus which is going to make her want to eat less and not more. Heading down the PG route is a slippery slope. You nutradrench is all PG with just some vitamins and minerals added.

Try everything you can to get her to eat, you want her energy coming from grain, not sugar unless it's the only thing you can do. You can eaisly continue with the calicum injected for weeks, but not energy. Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

try some beetpulp also things green like a cedar tree branch , regular oatmeal, parsley alfalfa or bean sprouts.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Norcalciphos is injectable calcium with other minerals.


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

Remember with grain, that it is HIGH phos and virtually NO calcium so lots of grain can worsen a calcium deficiency. That's why they first go off grain, I think, with hypocalcemia...they 'get it' that grain might be worsening the calcium deficiency. High calcium alfalfa is always my first choice, no grass (it's also high Phos and low calcium.) Good luck!!!

Ellie


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

ellie said:


> Remember with grain, that it is HIGH phos and virtually NO calcium so lots of grain can worsen a calcium deficiency. That's why they first go off grain, I think, with hypocalcemia...they 'get it' that grain might be worsening the calcium deficiency. High calcium alfalfa is always my first choice, no grass (it's also high Phos and low calcium.) Good luck!!!
> 
> Ellie


My understanding is that grass has more calcium that phos than calcium, just not a high amount of either, so it just can't make up for the excess phosphourus in grain.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Only legume hays, alfalfa and clover have more calcium, than phosphrous. Grass hays, cereal hays etc...are loaded with phosphrous.

I agree with Ellie, does stop eating their grain when in hypocalcemia and milk fever because it makes them ill. I think the imbalance also kills rumen bacteria so the grain ferments and makes them feel bloaty.

Increasing this does grain with more energy for the kids, while treating her for hypocalcemia may perk her back up, just hate to have to start the PG orally. Vicki


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2007)

She went off alfalfa pellets the first time right at 100 days and was not on grain yet. I was thinking she needed the energy, plus it was time, so I started adding grain. She ate it for awhile but then went off to the point that I started the injections.

Today she is still not eating alfalfa pellets or grain. Nibbles grass hay and bark and is cudding. Went for a nice walk with her today but she didn't want any peanuts.

I checked her teeth and jaw but there were no problems I could see. I was thinking that she may have went off feed for another reason???

I think if she doesn't start eating soon I'll loose her and the kids  

I can order from Valley Vet or get Rx if you think of anything I might need for her. I'm out of Nutra Drench... I gave her some MAGIC.

Christy


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Christy IMO you don't want to keep up the nutra drence and high sugars either. cmpk / BComplex probios and anything green you can find. Might be a good idea to go get a bale of alfalfa if hay is all she is eating.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You have to do everything you can to get her eating of course. Steal cud, kefir, probiotics, yeast. B vitamins daily, take her temp make sure it is not low or high in comparison to someone else on the farm.

Without energy she will go into ketosis, without calcium she will go into hypocalcemia and not want to eat. Without eating and giving oral PG, she won't eat because without tubing it burns her throat, and sets up a really acid rumen. Magic with the oils in it will further smoother the rumen bacteria, I wish I could visit with the boer goat breeder who came up with this nonsense!

Give as much as you can subq or IV...calcium (why I prefer the CMPK with it's other minerals) B vitmains, do her bo-se again...but got to get that rumen working so she will want grain again.

Treat her for hypocalcemia right now, try not to think ketosis and the volumes of PG given with it unless she starts having fingernail polish breath. Getting her 50 more days into the pregnancy is going to be hard, honestly once you have ketones present in the breath you should abort her to save her, because the kids will likely be born dead anyway, along with a very ill goat. If there is a way of supplying energy to the blood system without oral PG go for it! Vicki


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## KUrby (Oct 27, 2007)

gosh this all sounds really scarey! I hope you get her pulled thru Christy.
Karen


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Anything I've ever read on it shows most grasses as having MORE calcium than phosphorus, BUT they are both in small quantities and don't have AS MUCH more calcium than phosphorus as legumes. 

This is why you can feed horses just grass hay and they do fine. But add grain and you can get in trouble.

For example, bermuda grass has .30 percent calcium and .19 percent phosphorus, so it's got more calcium than phosphorus. However, alfalfa has 1.24 % calcium and .22% phosphorus, an much higher ratio, which is why it's so great for calcium. 

What I'm saying is that yes, we need alfalfa to balance out the grains, which have an inverted ratio, but grass STILL does have more calcium than phosphorus. But grass hays cannot make up for the imbalance grain creates as well as alfalfa can. 

Don't mean to get off track, just didn't want people going around thinking grass hay has an inverted ratio like grain does.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The only hay analysis I have seen is on coastal bermuda, red top cane hay, sudan, oat hay and world feeder bermuda, and all were higher in phosphrous than calcium. Perhaps this is just local to Texas? I know the calcium levels in the hays were negligable. Hay analysis isn't done here before you purchase hay, it's what we send in to A&M ourselves once we purchased hay...well except for the world feeder because they guy was soo proud of his protein  Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Really, that is interesting, maybe when they are specializing these grassing for protein, they are losing the calcium production? 

But horses just wouldn't hardly be growing if they didn't get enough calcium to lay bone, so the ratio must be good, at least around here. No one seems to have a problem with just pasture.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

What is your pasture and what type of grass hay are you talking abt Ashley??

Chris how's your doe?


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

She is not getting better, or worse  I can't get her to eat, although she will nibble grass hay (brome).

I am giving 30cc CMPK 2x/day, 5cc B complex fortified 1x/day, probios 1x/day, and warm kefir 2 or 3x/day.

This morning she took 3/4c warm kefir sucking it out of a 35cc oral dose syringe.

She has 40 days left in this pregnancy, there is no way she will make it unless there is some drastic improvement soon :down

I need the info on aborting her so that I know what to do and have everything on hand. We're not there yet, but I have to be prepared. I'll do anything I can to save her.

I have to beg the Vet for BoSe, I don't think he is in the office today so I might have to wait until Wed.

Christy


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

I wish I could have had the meds to abort my angel doe (avatar). sniff. {{Hugs}} Christy


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

*Re: Quints/Prednisolone ?*

I talked to the vet. He wants to put her on prednisolone (PREDEF 2X) along with what I'm already doing. What are you thought on this? What is the goat doseage? He said it is unlikly to cause her to abort. But if we don't see improvment after three days aborting her is his reccomendation.

Christy


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

UMM interesting here is what Goat 101 Saanendoah.com had to say abt doses etc:


> DEXAMETHASONE
> .Rx item
> A corticosteroid - the natural function of corticosteroids is to protect the supply of blood glucose critical for normal brain function).
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

Ugggh! He said this was different than DEX. I don't want to give it to her without someone here giving some advise about it first, but I will pick it up. If I have to about her, I worry that she will go into shock from loosing all that mass while being ill.

Christy


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Predef 2X is a common drug used for Ketosis in cows. My veterinary drug book says that it is a potent corticosteroid used for treatment of bovine ketosis. Administration to ketotic cows causes blood glucose levels to return to normal levels followed by a reduction in blood and urine ketones. Generally, there is a concomitant increase in appetite and rise in milk production to previous levels within 3-5 days following injection. 
Years ago, I had a big old Saanen doe that went off just like your doe, she had about six weeks till kidding. I worked myself to death trying to keep her up and going. I had a vet tell me to get a 1 1/2" needle, catch her rumen as it rose up, stick the needle in (you will know if you've hit the mark - rumen fluid will come out), then put 8 oz. Propylene Glycol right into the rumen. I only had to do this twice and she did a turn around, kidded normally with 3 babies, and never had another problem. You have to do this a clean as possible, so that you don't get an infection started.
Hope your doe pulls through for you!


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

*Re: Quints/Predef 2X?*

This is what he gave me for the Predef 2X, 2cc/100# IM My induce labor in late pregnancy. I dont want to start this without hearing from Vicki or Kaye first.

He gave me the BoSe what doseage and how often?

I am using Cal-Dex CMPK but he gave me a bottle of Dextrose Solution 50% How should this be used?

Thanks!


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

The Dextrose 50% would do her more good if given IV. It is very likely that the Predef 2X will cause her to go into labor. The dosage for BO-SE is 1cc per 40#.
I don't want to be the bearer of doom, but when a doe gets to this point, this far out from kidding, you sometimes have to decide which is more important to you - the doe or the kids she's carrying. Lots of times the kids will die from the toxicity of the ketones. It's a hard call to make, but if this doe is valuable to you, you may want to induce labor to save her life. Hope this all turns out for the best for you and her.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Sondra, it is a mix, but mostly fescue and bermuda.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We used dex at 1cc per 100 pounds once a day and didn't have the does abort, only with lutelyse did we have the abortions we wanted to save the does.

It honestly was always a train wreck. I would have my vet out, she would IV calcium, tube PG, leave me a list of things to do, and the does always died, had to be aborted to make it to the end, and even does who we would induce early, although the kids should have been savable we couldn't get them to breath even with dopram. My vet was out of her mind that she could not turn the ketosis info from cows into a manageable system for my goats.

I haven't been down that road with the alfalfa feeding 24/7/365. Even if they balk at grain she should not be refusing her hay/alafalfa pellets.

If you do induce you will have to expect retained placenta and a doe who doesn't push. Not enough calcium in the system gives you sluggish pushing, so expect this, pull kids, get oxytocin to use on a gloved hand if she doesn't dialate. Give calcium during the whole delivery and afterward and try to bring her into milk.

Something is not working for her in your management, find it and fix it, because it will get worse and worse as she milks more and more and has more kids each year. Vicki


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

Well...have you checked to see if she is in Ketosis? Smell her breathe...if she is it will smell very sweet like juicey fruit gum. The Predef will help with that. Then its best to IV Dextrose...DONT give SQ. If you do it will come up a nasty knot that will get infection then a whole different bag of worms.

Also check for milk fever....most people over look that and its REALLY easy to check for....touch the ears. If cold then she has milk fever if warm then she is fine.

Check to see if her rumen is still working....should sound like a toliet flushing a couple of time a minute. If not...then you can force her rumen back to working. That is a harder process but can be done of the phone.

Might want to just check those things out.

Ken in MI


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2008)

She ate a cup of warm kefir, a hand full of kale and a peanut butter sandwich for dinner. I tried pellets and grain but that was all I could get her to eat.

Breath, normal
Temp 101.6
Ruman sounds, weak

My objective today is to steal cud from another doe for her without loosing any fingers

Christy


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

that temp is going down isn't it? use a piece of pvc pipe or something in the mouth.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2008)

She died this morning. The vet says she had a twisted/ruptured bowel. She was carring bbbd quads. :down :sniffle

Christy


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm so sorry Christy. You did everything you could. I know how difficult it is to loose a beloved doe, especially one carrying babies. We lost one of our best does 2 weeks prior to kidding last year... she was pregnant with twin does out of a much anticipated AI breeding. Hang in there.

Take care,
Sara


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

OMG...I am so sorry Christy, this is awful...who would have thought a ruptured/twisted bowel. Sending hugs your way...


my thoughts are with you,
Autumn


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

So sorry Christy. I hope you can take comfort from the fact that she died from something totally beyond your control and that you don't need to totally panic that you missed something or that you need to anticipate a bunch of train wrecks with your other does.

Hope the rest of kidding season goes much better for you.

Camille


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2008)

Yes, it is good to know. And also she didn't suffer long. She was very valuable to us for so many reasons. This is such painful a loss for us. Thanks for the hugs and kind words.

Christy


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

So sorry .

Patty


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Ah Christy am so sorry not much else one can say to help you. You did what you could for her. Huggs go out to you.


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## hallelujahdairy (Dec 11, 2007)

So sorry to hear about your loss.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

What terrible news. There certainly was nothing you could have done better! Take care. Vicki


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## KUrby (Oct 27, 2007)

awh Christy, I am soooo very sorry to hear of your loss. Nubian and human hugs and kisses coming your way from Texas. :down
Karen


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## Becky-DixieDoesAlpines (Oct 26, 2007)

So sorry Christy.
I hadn't checked the forum since Monday and came here hoping for good news about your doe .
Hugs,
Becky


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## Josie (Oct 26, 2007)

Very sorry to read this... I feel terrible that you had to go through this with your doe. heartbreaking! 

Hugs,
Josie


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2008)

OH NO! I'm so, so sorry... I know how much losing her hurts (I still get teary whenever one of Charlie's twins -she was my favorite doe that I lost in Oct- does something that reminds me of their mother... again, so sorry for your loss.
susie, mo ozarks


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## goatmom (Oct 26, 2007)

Christy - I'm so very sorry you lost her.
Hugs,

Ginger


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I am so sorry about your doe and kids. What a strange thing to have happened. 
May that be all the bad luck you have this kidding season.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Christy I'm sorry you lost your doe.


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

Hugs. I didn't know goats could do that. I am so sorry for your loss. We love our goaties so much. It's hard. Lots of hugs.

Sheryl


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## Whitney (Oct 27, 2007)

I'm very sorry to read this.


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