# Help needed ASAP please



## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

Hi, I am new to goats and this is my first doe to kid. She had a single buck late Saturday afternoon. Since then her udder has been really hard. It has doubled in size since she kidded. Her teats are totally empty, flaccid and floppy. I can get a couple of drops out of each of them but then nothing else for a long time, atleast an hour. 

I have been massaging her udder and it doesn't seem to be helping. I also put warm towels on it a couple of times and that also isn't doing anything. The kid has also been butting her a lot and trying to drink, but there is nothing in her. I have been bottle feeding him but leaving him with her.

I noticed at the very end of her teat where the milk comes out is a dark, dark gray, is this normal. It's a very small circle, not quite the size of this letter o. 

Today, for the first time she seems to be off her feed but is still drinking and urinating. She also seems to be trembling today.

I am really worried about her and don't want to do the wrong thing for her.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

What have you been feeding her? What has been her sourse of calcium?

Do you have CMPK or TUMs?


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Take her temp, it is most likely low.


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## billinohio (Jun 24, 2009)

I do not consider myself to be an expert.........check her temperature.........it sounds like mastitis. It sounds like she needs to be on antibiotics.........and massaging the udder........it can be a long process......
If it were me, I would be taking her to my vet's office ASAP.
From my experience, once they go off feed, they are pretty sick, and they need to be "turned around" in short order.........or the downhill slope is very steep and slippery.
Last year I had a goat that freshened with a severe mastitis.......and she was one that I was planning to sell once I got a doe kid oput of her. Well, she freshened with a single buck kid........and I took her to the auction. It was a "financial" decision........she was not one that I wanted to invest more money into.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

This is an article in goatkeeping 101.

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,22.0.html


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

Hi, yes I have Tums. How many do I give to her? How often? How do I give them to her?

OK, I will take her temp. if it is low, what does that indicate?


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

I forgot to answer that she is eating alfalfa and rolled oats.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Jen, did you look at that article I posted? I will look up the tums thing, but just see if she will eat a bunch of them. Or crush them in something she likes such as peanut butter.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Can you take a temp? If she has fever, it is not cured by TUMS.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Fever= infection, perhaps mastitis

Below normal temp, trembling= possible hypocalcemia (see the link above) 

In both cases there is udder involvement.

I have to go outside for a bit, will be back soon.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Also please have your doe tested for CAE. Hard congested udders are common in CAE as well as with hypocalcemia and mastitis. Tam


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

That dark gray circle could be the plug at the end of the teat, which can be picked off, but if that was the only issue, the teats would be full of milk (it just wouldn't be able to get out). Vitamin C is helpful with a congested udder, as is peppermint (there is an udder cream that you can get that has peppermint oil in it). Still, the first step is going to be to get her temp and see what is going on. You can have a congested udder with no other issues, but you are more likely to have other issues that lead to the udder problem. Like everyone else has said, you'll need to rule out hypocalcemia, mastitis, CAE.


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

Hi, just got in from chores with the other does and to put the baby to bed for his nap. The doe is still the same. Her temp is 99.8F
Why does this have to be my first goat to kid? I have two others that I bought with bucks on them, and one of them dried up the second day I had ner, now this..... AAAGH!!


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## Candy (Jun 4, 2009)

I am not an expert either but I think this sounds like milk fever. Low temp and trembling??? Am I right? Don't know the cure. LOok up milk fever in goatkeeping 101.


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## Dacaree (Jan 31, 2009)

You need to get some CMPK from your vet immediately or you will lose her. You can turn her around, but you will need to act fast.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Milk fever is hypocalcemia.
Make some home made CMPK but it would be better if you could find a nearby goat person or a vet, you may lose your doe.


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

OK, I am going to the vets now. They don't have CMPK here in SK, Canada, but he said they have something similar that they have there for cattle but it is safe for does. How is it given and at what dose and frequency?


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Just now seeing this, I'm checking.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Here's another link, sorry I have not been more helpful other than post links.

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,27.0.html


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## catdance62 (Mar 2, 2009)

Get her some CMPK right away. Hypocalcemia is very serious. I almost lost a doe to it before, but she turned out alright.


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

Hi everyone. Thank you all so much for your help!! I have been to two places now (I live in the middle of no where.) The only thing I can find is Cal Mag Phos. I have no idea how much to hive her it says only 50 - 125 ml/ every few hours, but that is the dosage for sheep and swine. It has per 100 ml - Calcium/Borogluconate 95 mEq, Sodium/Hypophosphite 32 mEq, and Magnesium/Chloride 44 mEq.

I was also able to get 3 of the 1000mg tablets of Tums into her before I left. That was almost 2 hours ago.

How much do I give her?


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## Dacaree (Jan 31, 2009)

She needs 30cc. You can give it in two doses, some people give it in one. It is sub q, in other words under the skin. Give it to her now!! You need to warm it to her body temperature. I usually fill a glass with hot water and put the syringe in it. Then by the time I get to the barn and get her ready, the cmpk is the right temperature. I will have to check but I think you can give it to her every two hours, could be four. I will check and get back to you. You will give her the whole bottle though. Do not stop even after you see improvement. Sorry, I have been internet hopping and didn't see you reply.


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

No worries. I just wanted to find someone online that had replied to my post that might know. I'll post when I'm done.


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## Dacaree (Jan 31, 2009)

Okay, give every 6 hours. I think though with the doe I had awhile back with milk fever I gave it to her every 4 hours for the first two doses and then went to every 6 until I ran out. You should see improvement rather quickly after the cmpk. It will take awhile for 100% but you can tell if it is helping.

After you get through this, do some research on here about your feeding program. 9 times out of 10, her diet is lacking if this happens. I have only had it happen once and figured out I needed to increase her alfalfa consumption.


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

Jen, as soon as you get a chance modify your profile and put what kind of goats you raise and where you live. This info will let us help you better and quicker.
Sounds like you have 2 things going on, which the other girls have picked up on here. Hypocalcemia and Mastitis and/or CAE.
If you are new vet intervention will be helpful if the vet is familiar with this in goats. Injectable CMPK is what you really need and you get that from the Vet. Read the Hypocalcemia post in Goat keeping 101. All the info is there that you need. You can get some Today and infuse the teats and massage. You will need to continue to bottle feed this baby. I would not be letting him try and suck off of her. Good luck with your girl.


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## Dacaree (Jan 31, 2009)

Christine, the cal phos mag she was talking about is the same thing as CMPK, it is the generic. That is how I get it from the vet also. Atleast I think she is talking about the same thing.


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

Hi, we can't seem to get the CMPK here. However, the Co-op Agriculture centre had the stuff called Cal Mag Phos. I listed the ingriediants and amounts per 100 ml off the bottle a couple of posts ago. You can compare it to CMPK and see how similar it is. I last posted at 6:10, so it would have been about 6:30 when I gave her the 30 ml of Cal Mag Phos. She is now up and staying up and eating a tiny bit of hay again. 

I was massaging her and again out of her left side came this clump of white stuff. It is not quite solid, it reminded me of a bit of egg white that had been in boiling water. You know off a poached egg? It came shooting out, followed by a couple of streams of milk, then nothing. The other side, really nothing, just a couple of drops.

OK, this is how I was instructed to feed. All my does that are not bred, or before four months and a week gestation, get all alfalfa and about 1/3 of an ice cream bucket of rolled oats. The oats they get about 4 or 5 in the afternoon and the alfalfa is there all the time. 

About three weeks before they kid I reduce their oats to about 1 cup each per day and give them a lesser quality hay, such as slough or brome. The rationale I was given for this is so that the kids aren't huge, which can cause birthing difficulties. I also remove their salt and minerals at this time. Their hay is left available at all tims.

As soon as they kid, they are given back their alfalfa, minerals and salt, and get unlimited rolled oats. 

I really appreciate everyones time and help. 

I looked to see where I can add a signature but didn't find it. I am going to look again. 

Jenny


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

Oh, I gave her another 2 Tums, so 2000 mg of calcium, orally of course, at 9 pm. I am not going to do that anymore, unless someone advises me differently.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh my! I think that it is the taking away of the alfalfa during a critiacal time period that has caused this. I do not understand the rationale behind your feeding program at all. I feel someone has misguided you.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm looking through goatkeeping 101 right now...


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

I'm glad you found this forum. That feeding program is basically opposite of what should be done.


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

Really??? The lady that I bought all my goats from, except for the three that are kidding this week, the one that I am having the trouble with and the two that are due right away,,,hopefully. Anyways, she has had goats for almost 40 years, has a closed herd and tests for CAE yearly and has so far been all negative, and has very little CL. She also shows and has had great success and easy births etc... I was following the regime that she uses.

Ok, so, what does everyone here do? 

There are two does that are due soon that I have on slough hay and hardly any oats. What should I do with them if that isn't a great idea?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

First you may know this gal but it's very doubtful you know if she has easy births or not, and CRINGE "very little CL" and unless you have seen the tests, it's doubtful anyone that has had goats for 40 years hasn't had CAE, and if you haven't seen the tests she can be marketing to you. I can say that I don't know anyone who has had goats for 20 years who hasn't fought CAE at one time. Your doe either has had mastitis, or has it now, and the only way to know is to have the "milk" you are getting out of the udder tested, at the same time pull blood and run an Elisa test for CAE, not AGID testing which I know Canadian labs still use. It's pretty classic CAE or mycoplasma symptoms, a hard full looking udder that milks nothing but squirts for weeks, and if you really work at it, it can soften some. I would let the buckling keep nursing her, if she is positive he is already ruined, even 1cc of colostrum from her will make him positive also. It's simply not something starting out you want in your herd, it's also a huge selling feature for you, showing tests results! You certainly don't want any goats who have CL they not only contaminate other goats but all warm blood mammals and ruin your barns and soil with the contaminate.

This about nutrition this way. Your doe is bred and will kid with 1, 2, 3 or 4 bouncing 8 pound kids in 150 days. From day 100 to day 50 those babies move from the size of newborn puppies to 8 pounds, she can do this on poorer quality hay and less grain? She needs the grain for energy and calories and fat, and she needs the calcium in her alfalfa, along with it's protein. The old premise behind starving a goat of calcium to make sure they don't get ketosis is so flawed in so many ways but at least it is an old scientific premise, the starving them of calories she made up. The idea is that she will then use her stored reserve of calcium, in her calcium bank, in her blood and bones, instead of relying on it from her alfalfa...the problem? Does she really have any reserves in that calcium bank? Do this to a young doe who is still growing herself, or has triplets as a first freshener and you will ruin her feet and legs, especially the bones of her foreleg..do this to an older doe with triplets or quads who also is genetically able to be an excellent milker, along with moving to alot more grain the days after she kids, and you are setting her up for a metabolic crash.

It's old expensive ways of thinking. It has served your friend well over the years but older breeders also learn to turn a blind eye to the real problems in their herds....it's normal to them. Vicki


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

OK, so, do I now just give back unlimited oats and alfalfa to the two that are due to kid right away? Or alfalfa and a limited amount of oats? They have been off alfalfa and on limited oats now for 2 weeks.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Just SLOWLY start increasing both, and get more of the injectable calcium you are using on this doe, and it wouldn't hurt to give some of it to these does as they kid, just give it once daily for awhile, keep a close eye on their temps, anything lower than normal for your herd 102 is normal, but 103 is normal this time of year in our heat, than move to every 6 hours. You can do the tums etc...orally daily if they like them, but oral application of any calcium is super slow to be absorbed by the blood and bones. Do not stop giving this doe her injectable calcium until she is 100% and is eating well, milking well or you have found out what is going on in this udder. What percentage of protein is your alfalfa? And only knowing that rolled oats are used for oatmeal in the USA  what part of the oat is missing in rolled oats? Can you get good clean fat whole oats? Race horse oats? Good luck with this, I won't be on until late tommorrow. Vicki


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

LOL, I do buy whole oats from the farmer a mile away. I run them through the roller myself, just enough to crack them. That way they are a little bit more digestible. Nothing is missing, the whole oats are rolled and all of it goes right into the feed bucket!


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

So they are more like what we would call crimped oats, maybe.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

And keep an eye on that udder, which I am sure you are doing. If this doe does have CAE and you can't get the milk out she could split it. Its a sad horrible sight and the doe will pretty much be useless.
Tam


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## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

Jenny - just want to encourage you to hang in there... you've certainly found the right place to get plenty of advice and more than that - DGIers actually care


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, Jenny, hang in there, you are in the right place here. My computer/internet is wonky so I have had a hard time being present this week.


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

Just saw this post. Like other folks have said....

How is your doe now? I know that our feed store sells a CMPK liquid also that you give orally. 30 cc's every 2 hours. (down the throat) Don't know if it is available over the counter in Canada...
I hope she is turning around for you....


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

Hi everyone. Thanks for all the encouragement, info and advice. Sorry I haven't posted sooner. I sometimes lose internet access out her for long periods of time, which is what happened. I am only grateful that it happened when it did and not sooner. She is about the same, but atleast up and eating some. No real change in her udder except that maybe a little more milk is coming out of the one side.


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## cloverhillgoats (May 23, 2008)

Any time the udder is congested or mastitic you can give her some chewable vitamin C tablets to help clear it up.


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

Thanks for that Rachel. How much do you give?

Anyways, I went out just now and gave her another injection. Her temp is up to 101.6 from 99.8 the other night. Other then that there doesn't seem to be too big of a change.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Jen, glad she is up and eating. Glad you posted. Are you taking routine temps and writing them down with the time? Also, take a herdmates temp for comparison. Is the kid nursing? If so, it may be getting more milk than you realize and the udder is just empty from the kid sucking.


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## Jen1204ca (May 25, 2010)

I don't think the buck is getting much milk, if any. Her teats are so floppy and flaccid. The buck tries and butts and sucks but gives up and then tries the other side, same thing. The longest he stays on a teat is maybe 10 seconds.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, that's no good.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Wondering how the she is doing.


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