# feeding



## BlueRose (Feb 2, 2011)

anyone have experience with purina dairy parlor feed? they have a 16 percent and a 18 percent..

I was thinking about feeding this to milkers.

for bucks I want to feed purina goat feed.

dry does and kids- purina goat feed,corn,oats and BOSS.

whats yalls input on this?


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## supermom (Feb 24, 2009)

Any pelleted feed is not going to get great feedback on this forum because you do not really know what is in the feed. I believe the tag reads "Grain By-Products", but we don't really know what that is. I understand the reasoning behind making your own feed, but I have not had the expertise or time to develop my own feed over the past couple years, so.....we have used Purina Noble almost exclusively. Our goats look nice and have been healthy. I can't tell you how it affects the milk quantity, but the quality (or taste) has been excellent. No goaty aftertaste at all.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I very timely post. With me selling down so many milkers I was going to ask if anybody was souly feeding Nobel Goat Feed, how the girls looked, how they milked. The only person I know that uses it locally topdresses with so much stuff she really isn't feeding it. I think it would be so much eaiser to just sell the milkers already weaned onto something like this and let others decide then what they want to switch to....kind of like how we feed mostly raw to our dogs, but when one of our girls has a litter she is also on kibble, so the litter can be weaned and sold on kibble and then if you want to talk raw with me, you can afterwards. 

I wonder with Purina if all Nobel lactation pellet is the same, since we know their minerals are regional...anyone know?

Anyone want to post tags of these? I hadn't seen the one you are talking about Kara. Vicki


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## supermom (Feb 24, 2009)

Here is a link to Purina with the details: http://goat.purinamills.com/ourproducts/products/noblegoatdairyparlor16/

We don't topdress, but just give supplements. Unfortunately the price went up a couple dollars per bag just in the past 3 months. I have no idea if you professionals would think my goats look excellent, but I do believe they look pretty nice.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> if all Nobel lactation pellet is the same


no it's a different batch of garbage each time :biggrin

Don't tell me you are falling for their propaganda :rofl
They have some great writers working for them.

"You too can be a partner with nature to bring about the best in your livestock"
How insulting. :fire Sounds like BP talking about the gulf what a joke.
What is even remotely like nature about their processes or finished product? UGH.
Those pretty sacks much be pricey since the crap inside is NOT!
The only thing that saves them is the Diamond V. All the feed cos have realized if you pump the yeast and microbials in there they can digest rusty truck bumpers to good advantage.
Shudder at the thought. 
(Daniel I need a hideously appropriate smiley here)
Lee


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

Lee, you crack me up! But so true about the feeding of by products. :ick
Linda


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

All the people I know that are milking goats for home milk use and family food products like cultured milk and cheese are doing so because they want a better product than you can purchase. In my opinion using crop waste (which should have been returned to the soil to make the next crop nutritious) that has been hauled in a truck that also hauled hazardous waste and dumping it on the ground to rot a bit and then scooping it up to cook it down into an unrecognizable pile of goo to a temp that kills the enzymes as well as the bacteria and adding basic items to let a tag read a certain thing is just like mystery mcnuggets? WHAT are you eating? 

I want my goat food to look like food too so I know that the food for my family that I make from my goat milk is the best it can be for my level of expenditure. Our society is all about looks and yet no one knows what they are looking at. Surface appearances and feedback from your senses has been gauged in the production of livestock feed. It is not all pretty and smell good and in the case of dog food COLORED for the animals...it's for the buyer. All it takes to make a goat eat something is pour molasses on it -the cheapest by product of them all. 
Disguising inferior products full of toxins and by products of mechanized farming and the dead food produced by huge batch heat processing and extruding is not exactly what I had in mind for a more natural lifestyle. They kill all the nutrients and then add them back. I think we know what this has done for human health so why would it be any different for livestock?
Lee


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## danielsumner (Jul 21, 2009)

buckrun said:


> > if all Nobel lactation pellet is the same
> 
> 
> no it's a different batch of garbage each time :biggrin
> ...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Lee you really need to stop being so shy and retireing and say what is on your mind  I know, I know...I am just trying to make my life easier...trying to help someone put together a feed program on the fly when they don't live in my area is tough.

Perfect Daniel! Vicki


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

WELL -- I have four does here that milked over 4000# last year fed entirely on NOBLE GOAT dairy 16%.

So. Say what you want about pelleted feeds, but I loved this stuff, and so did the does. There is no sorting, no picking through fee - and it smells like beer 

There is no discernible molasses on it. It is a plain, light tan pellet.

Unfortunately, it is now $576 a TON in my area, and I can't do that for 30 milkers.  Sad.


OH BTW -- I fed this for 3 or 4 years -- at Nationals, our lowest placing was 16th, so I think they looked okay too ;-)


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

See what I mean about appearances?
Toxic chemicals from agricultural- transport- cleaning- storage practices are stored in the fat and mobilized during lactation. There is a complete lack of control of most chemicals and the studies about their prevalence in milk has been mostly aimed at human milk. There are no consistent protocols for identifying and tracking the health risks of the hundreds of chemicals capable of making their way to milk via livestock feed (lipophilic).
If you are just having goats because they are pretty to look at great feed them whatever.
If you are drinking the milk I would think twice about what you are feeding them.
The list of toxins that can move to milk is longer than the member list of this forum.
Lee
There see now I am coming out of my shell :biggrin


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, you best be sure you are growing every bit of feed they are eating if you are concerned about it.....there is not a field in this country that hasn't had some sort of chemical put on it at some time or another -- whether it is claimed to be "organic" or not.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I beg to differ-
Your goats did not do that on Purina. They did it on all the alfalfa and beet pulp they could eat with a little snack of junk food on the milk stand. Saying that feed ration is why your goats milk the way they do is very misleading. 

I am well aware of farming practices and understand about organic and the limitations in that goal which is why I want what I eat to be grown here by me and I want what I feed my stock to look like something I know as food. Simplistic and unreasonable maybe but we all have different goals and priorities. Mine is real food and always has been-it's a hard thing to get over your mom wandering around quoting Rachael Carson while you are in your formative years- heh a new kind of child abuse-forced environmentalism! But I am not trying to make a national name as a goat breeder and have the luxury of not being competitive but I am very happy for those who have found this works to make healthy productive goats. We all have to make choices. I am lucky I can be somewhat of an idealist because I am not doing goats for a living. But that does not mean I will drink your milk :rofl

Lee


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, Lee, their little "snack" of "junk" food added up to over 65# of Noble Goat a day....so you are honestly going to tell me it didn't matter at all?

I am not going to argue the point with you because, well, it's pointless. The question was whether Noble Goat is a viable feed alternative, and the answer is YES.

Not all of us have unlimited time to mix and sort and add this or that foo foo dust to our feed mixes. It has to be quick and simple for us. That said, I now have a local mill (well, within 100 miles) that does a nice 14% dairy mix of COB, soy dairy pellet, and mineral pack that is $200 a ton cheaper than the Noble Goat. If I could afford it, I'd still be using the Noble Goat. I can't, so this mix is the best we could come up with....they waste it sorting though - I had ZERO waste with Noble Goat. It remains to be seen whether it will let our girls produce up to their genetic potential.....and 4# milkers don't make it here.

Sure we have great alfalfa as the basis of our program....I think you'd find most dairies do too.....and they still care about their grain mix! I really am not going to apologize for having a herd that shows and MILKS too. And sorry, we don't let ANYONE else have our milk  My family likes it too much -- with our poison Oreos!


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

ROFL - I agree with Lee in principle and understand the practicality of Tracy's situation. I'll drink my milk and eat oreos.  I love Oreos.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I love these feed discussions. There is always a "take-away" from them. Learning is good.

I have not had goats for two years yet, but I have fed both packaged feed ration (Purina Dairy Goat) and grains (Sondra mix). When you have a small operation, it is certainly not practical to buy a custom grain mix. It depends on the feed mill, but most have a pretty high minimum (one around here is 1000 lbs). For me, that is too much money to fork out at one time and too much grain in storage for too long a period. However, I really didn't like the amound of molasses in the product as well as the unknown by-products. Once our little ones were older, I did switch to a grain mix vs a commercial mix so I am now feeding 4 goats instead of 2. With no molasses in the mix, the feed doesn't spoil and I also found a local mill that would sell me only 500 lbs at a time. That was much more doable for me. The cost is no cheaper than the commercial at this time. I really do feel that my girls are doing better on the grains or maybe it is because "I" feel better about what I am feeding them. Either way, it is my choice and one that I am happy with.

I believe the cost of commercial grains have gone up because of the high cost of wheat right now.


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

I have found the simpler the better for my time, the goats' overall health, and cost-effectiveness of production. Note, I don't say top forced production, I say cost-effectiveness (worth repeating!). Other factors always come into play--usually first is finances. When we see big dollars attached to any one category, like feed, we sometimes get a tad worried (or if we are smarter, a LOT worried <VBG>).

Commercially mixed supplements, concentrates, and feed items aimed at "increasing production" aren't always the best for everyone.

For years I did a quick mix-down at each milking (feeding) time. I had a basic (local) COB, plus I had whole oats and rolled barley as well. I would scoop two cans of barley and one can of oats on the top of the COB barrell, mix it up, and feed out of that. What my does have received in the past 10-15 years is minimal compared to what I thought I needed to be feeding in decades past. My costs in the most recent years have been into alfalfa pellets. This feeding reinforced what I found out of necessity many years back. Goats can and will produce on forage-based feeds with great cost-effectiveness. The grain-based additions become costly and not necessary from a bugetary aspect if overly used. Grains are not where the profitable production comes from. Sure, you can 'feed up' to a higher level, perhaps even a Top Ten level, but the bottom line for anyone that has a sharp pencil is the cost of each gallon produced--not how MANY gallons can I produce! JMO, from some 35+ years with goats, and even more years before that looking up from the under side of cows in our small family dairy farm.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Awww Tracy you don't have to tell me you are fancy!
Just some hicks with some goats here


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Welcome to the forum Kara and don't get spooked! We have this discussion at least once a month with pretty much the same results!
Lee


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

lorit said:


> ROFL - I agree with Lee in principle and understand the practicality of Tracy's situation. I'll drink my milk and eat oreos.  I love Oreos.


Newman-O's man. They are great!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I don't feed pellets either but have one little doeling this year that just won't eat her oats or wheat midds very good. Finally one day I put a handful of milk pellets in her bowl (I have some as the milk cow is getting them- slowly weaning her off) and she ate them up. So she's getting those for now as it's seems the only grain she'll eat good! I even tried mixing molasses with the other. Oh well, later when she's milking she'll be hungry enough to eat what I give her- I hope! Her not eating her grain allowed her smaller sister to shoot ahead of her in growth. 

I'd like to take things a step further in the future and grow my own darn grain!


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

We have very little grain up here to buy and mix our own. Maine is not a real crop state, unless you want to feed your goats marijuana and potatoes. I can get native whole oats, which I do give them when I can get them. We did have a mill about 2 hours away, but they went broke because they ended up having to haul the grains in from out of state due to the poor growing seasons.

So, I'm pretty much stuck with commercial concentrates. I buy Blue Seal, like i have for 30+ years. I mix oats when I can and give them alfalfa pellets I get from TSC (Standlee) and they get mixed grass hay because we can't grow alfalfa up here. It's not perfect, i wish I could do more for the girls, but it's all I have up here.

The girls all look good, produce very well, are healthy and seem to be happy. Probably they would produce more on less if we had the grains and such you all have down and out there, but we don't and I'm not in any position to move!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

So when you sell milkers and mix grains like Bill, Lee, me and Sondra do....what do you advise? I know that it would be so much eiaser for me to sell a milker with a sack of Purina whatever and they can continue with it, than having the feed conversation over and over because they can not get the same grains I can to mix. And having 3 trash cans and a scoop of this and that is exactly what I do, I am just trying to make it easier on my customers.


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

When I started with goats I mixed my own grains. Its a pain but I did it because is was cheaper AND seemed healthier. Now I have a mortgage and kids and one income. And mixing grains in NOT cheaper and I can't get organic grains so it seems kind of pointless too mix and pay more. I can't get organic grain here and if I could would not be able to afford it anyway. I can't afford goat chow either ($15+ a bag) I've been feeding the Purina Dairy 16% at $9.50 a bag. I wish I could afford to stand by my principles, which are like Lee's..but if its a choice between having the goats and milk for my family (fed as they may be)..or no goats because I can't feed them exactly as I'd like I choose to have them. And I know my family benifits from the milk even though it is not organic.
Vicki, when I used to mix, I just told buyers how to safely transition the goat over to a bagged feed. I will admit the mix is super convenient =D


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## supermom (Feb 24, 2009)

Vicki, If the people don't know what to feed their goats already (like been on DGI), then I would definitely tell them to start with a bag of Purina and then tell them if they would like to switch over to something more natural and healthy in the future, visit the DGI board and research feed. You can let them know that is not what you feed your goats, but will work just fine for starters. I would get the babies on the Noble medicated before they leave. There are so many things to learn when you start goats that I was totally overwhelmed and that was starting out with Purina. One reason I'm still with a pelleted feed is because it is still confusing to me. None of you feed the same mix! I have way too much going on here to figure it out right now, so we just have to do this for the time being.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I advise them to start with a molasses free horse ration.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The only molassas free horse rations are 10 and 11% dry mixes...I did find a 14% horse pellet today, with 17% alfalfa pellets this may be dooable. At least the quality of horse pellets are better than other livestock here.


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

I dropped using molasses feeds of any sort years ago -- it allows for better keeping time and also it is easier to find grains without molasses. Also, the abbreviated amount of grains/concentrates I have resorted to feeding over the past recent years makes is more important for alfalfa pellets to be the KEY ingredient. I feed grain with a tuna can for measurement. The alfalfa pellets are offered at around a pound per doe on the milkstand (for milking Nubian does)... There is no deficit in production compared to animals of decades past when I was feeding long-stem alfalfa as the main roughage with way too high amounts (as compared to what I do now) of grain on the milkstand.
Health has been vastly improved in goats with the "less grain is better" mentality in my operation and I will NEVER feed grain or concentrates in amounts claimed as appropriate by feed manufacturers ever again (as long as good alfalfa pellets are an option). Yes, this includes First Freshening Nubians milking in the 8-10 pound range during their peak months (FF 2 year olds). JMO for what it's worth.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You have to stop all that Bill, folks are going to think I asked you to come on here and back me up  We have a very unpopular nutritional program! But your in good company


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

LOL Vicki... I'm sure we won't (don't) agree on every thing across the board, but most assuredly we respect each others' opinions on this forum--particularly in the vein of doing what works best for each herd.

As herd owners find their own comfort zone in maneuvering feeds for the optimal and overall health of their animals--as well as their pocketbooks, the option of discovery opens up.

The ONE right answer is that there is NO ONE RIGHT ANSWER! But, I'm grounded in my Missouri ancestry in that if I see something working with my own eyes, I'm pretty sure it's right for ME!

Now... I just got used to this spring-like weather, and now they say up to two inches of that blasted white stuff tonight. Urggg.... Of course, I could be where Tracy is and they measure it in FEET rather than inches at a time! <VBG>


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

80 degree capri and t shirt weather here!


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Oh that's just RUDE! Sure, rub it in! *pout*


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

That's okay Bill...we won't have high worm counts  She can gloat if she wants.


"The ONE right answer is that there is NO ONE RIGHT ANSWER"
Good answer.
Tam


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I know I have already offended Tracy so I want to try and explain why I said that Purina was not why her does were milking 4000 pounds. No pelletized ration is solely responsible for this kind of success.

The are additional factors beyond toxin inclusions to consider when using a pelleted ration. With increasing levels of processing of by -products the actual nature of the fiber is altered. The particle size becomes so small that it reduces rumination and saliva production resulting in inadequate buffering of rumen contents leading to subclinical acidosis. Inadequate fiber in lactation rations results in increase of health issues such as laminitis- ketosis- displaced abomasum- reproductive issues.

Feeding pelleted by-products requires a high quality bulk forage  to balance of the results of processed ration and insure good health during extended lactation. Forage is to supply proper fiber so that the ruminant system works correctly and in modern practices quality bulk forage offsets the negative responses to overly processed byproducts found in popular dairy parlor rations. High quality forage or bulk makes the difference in successful use of a pelleted ration.

Fiber is primarily to maintain a healthy rumen but forages do deliver nutrients as well -particularly legume forages -making it possible to feed very low quality byproducts. The better quality your forage is the less quality you can get away with in your daily supplements.

The success of a quality based forage diet is limited by the amount of rumen distension possible in your doe which varies from line to line in all dairy stock but can be improved with introduction of fiber very early and avoidance of small particle feeds in young kids. Extensive reduction of particle size in rations provides chemical signals to the animal that is is satiated and nutritiated when in fact not enough fiber in the correct form has been introduced to promote good rumen function. Continuous feeding of small particle ration never allows bloom of the rumen. Expansion of the capabilities of the rumen requires constant supply of quality digestible fiber.

The importance of quality bulk in your management cannot be overemphasized no matter what you choose as your milk stand feed.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm not offended, I just don't necessarily agree with all of it :biggrin My goats milk 4000# because of genetics, the diet just backs it up 

I like to deal with the practicalities -- how many of you have does that sort out all the corn, or all the barley, or the oats and throw them on the floor? I would hazard to guess a lot of you -- just like mine! The pelleted grain mix offers a simple solution to the problem, gets the nutrients into them that I want them to have, and offers zero waste. And most importantly- THEY EAT IT! I have the pickiest eaters in the world....well, except for Maxime maybe. I would certainly recommend it if anyone can still afford it (I'm still bitter about Purina raising the cost $3 a bag in less than 2 months!) but no, the grain is not the BASIS of my nutritional program, it is simply a piece of it.

_
The success of a quality based forage diet is limited by the amount of rumen distension possible in your doe which varies from line to line in all dairy stock but can be improved with introduction of fiber very early and avoidance of small particle feeds in young kids. 
_
Now this I do agree with, and it is a practice I follow.

I dislike feeding completely dry grains -- here, they are dusty and crappy, and the does don't like it (neither do the horses for that matter) The mill I am using now puts on a very little bit of cane molasses, and it is really nice....probably the prettiest feed I have ever seen.

That said -- a LOT of the show folks I know here feed nothing but wet COB to their milkers -- and they look just fine too! We do have the benefit of awesome hay here ....I'm sure other parts of the country aren't as lucky. I can't even begin to imagine buying Standlee pellets in Maine because they cost a fortune here!


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## BlueRose (Feb 2, 2011)

ahh wow! quite a response to the question!

when I bred bearded dragons you would be discriminated against if you fed a pelleted feed. reptile people believe in ONLY natural food. they want to see a cricket or a rat.. not a pellet..

If i was to feed a grain mix i was thinking and COB, and Boss. and adding alfalfa to the milking ration and calf manna. 

what do yall feed and does that sound okay?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Sounds like a plan, but why not feed the alfalfa free choice instead of on the milk stand? What kind of hay do you feed?

I feed COB with calf manna (from info I got here). Some here don't do the calf manna, some do. If you do a search, lots of good info.


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

I will tell you my experience with a pelleted dairy ration; Blue Seal and then the ADM was all I knew about for many years until only recently did I switch the herd including the cows to a whole grain feed with no soy. The differences have been marked. I am a commercial dairy so money and affordability are big factors, I want the biggest bang for my buck possible and maintain a healthy herd (50). While feeding the pellet and yes, they found it to be very palatable to the point of INHALING them I was up to 80 - 85 bags per month to feed everyone and it did include 2 milking cows. Yes, the cows were giving 10 -12 gallons a day and 15 or so from the goats, but the animals just didn't look good to me. I made the switch to the whole grain about 7 months ago and I am impressed. The feed intake dropped considerably, down a third in numbers of bags and maintaining the milk production at the same time. The animals took a bit to get used to the grains, but it has to be better when the doe acutally CHEWS her meal instead of sucking it up. The added protien and fat of the peanuts in the feed have transformed the animal's body condition. They were great before breeding this season, but my real pleasure has been seeing their condition after freshening. They have not had a drawn or rough look and all have been ravishingly hungry after kidding. Not one has gone off their feed for even a day. I do feed alfalfa pellets and high quality orchard grass hay nearly free choice. I am anticipating feeding a maximum of 60 - 65 bags per month this season. Now, with half the herd fresh and one cow, we're at a bit over bag a day. This feed is also much cheaper than any pellet version at $360 a ton. The ADM when I stopped feeding it was nearing $480 a ton that's a lot when you are feeding out 80 bags a month. 

I agree with Lee, I like seeing reconizable feedstuffs in the grain I feed my animals, even my horses get primarily a forage-based diet of Triple Crown forage alfalfa, hay pellets and beet pulp as their concentrate in addition to hay/pasture.


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