# Removing horn bud at birth question



## leslieh (Oct 25, 2007)

Ok, got called this a.m. to help a friend with a difficult birth. Neither of us had the strength to pull, so called another friend and her husband for help.

He was able to deliver a hugh single nubian buck. Well, hmmm, when the doe's owner went for meds, my buddy and I decided since we couldn't "hurt" him, we'd investigate. 

I never did see the horn bud. I cut just the skin but it wouldn't peel back. I cut deeper, and tried. I wound up cutting pretty deep, I'd say between 1/8th and 1/4th before I could peel it back. Then we found nothing. And before you say it, I don't think he was polled. He did have swirls. We did find the "bump" and a small point that looked like where the bud would have sat. 

So tell me. How far down did you go? Did I not go down deep enough? Or too deep and the bud was in the layers that I peeled back? My friend and I couldn't find the bud.

Our other thought was that even though he was hugh, he was slightly premature. The doe had started an udder, but not like it should have been. And he really didn't have the horn "bumps", which a buck usually does have "something" at birth. Maybe the bud hadn't developed yet?

So, help me out some here. My daughter said that we'd better wait on the live kids, but we'd definatelly look again if we run across another opportunity. Which I hope we don't!!

Any thoughts on what I did wrong?

Leslie


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Gosh I have never heard of cutting at birth to remove buds. some of my bucks never have buds at birth. also if he had all his hair , you could feel the teeth even if not protruded he probably wasn't premature.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The ones I did, it was right under the skin. It was like cartilage, a quarter circle of cartilage.

Although not born with horns or even protruding buds, I can still feel hornbuds under the skin even of little kids, tiny pointy tops...so yes if you cut into it, yes you did peel the part back you should have flipped out. Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

interesting and learned something


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## leslieh (Oct 25, 2007)

Gotcha. Ok, so I did go too deep. I had gotten all the way down to the pointy top. Hmmm, you just cut the skin and not into the meat, right? The skin didn't want to peel. Did it peel easy for you? I wish I had that kid back, to check this out further. I had seriously thought about trying with the next boy born, but after seeing I don't have a clue, I think I'll not attempt it on the "live" fellows until I can experiment better.

Hey, Vicki, next time grab a camera, and maybe if it isn't a good idea to post them here, maybe p.m. I'm a visual learner!

Thanks. If you do try this again this year. Keep us posted.

We disbudded our two this a.m. before I got the call. All of my crew is for cutting them out at birth. We hate disbudding. Although, what I did to the dead baby, maybe I'd better stick with disbudding! 

Leslie


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I am for sure doing this this coming spring. Just like when you disbud, the first burn you can then peel off the hair, skin and pop the top off the hornbud, then burn to a pretty copper ring. With the scalpel you are just cutting through the skin and hair, to get under that little top you pop off...like it's a seed that isn't rooted yet. Vicki


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

I am gathering the buck was dead. is it possible that it he had been dead long enough to change how things such as peeling skin, etc would feel?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Do you do this right at birth and is it less painful for the kid than disbudding?? Vicki do you do this on all babies??


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

So if you cut out that little horn bud, does that absolutely guarantee no scurs on bucklings? Sounds like a great idea to me....

Tracy


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## leslieh (Oct 25, 2007)

I don't know how long he'd been dead before we got him out. I know she didn't let the doe labor long before she called for help. I sure couldn't get the skin to peel, but I really didn't know what I was doing either.

I found this link this morning. It was for calves, but I found it very interesting and with good diagrams.

http://www.mla.com.au/NR/rdonlyres/...cattle_branding_castration_dehorningJun07.pdf

Go to page 22 and 23.

Vicki, did you shave the hair off first before you cut?

Leslie


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## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

Good article. Lots to ponder.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

re visiting this Please Vicki explain further on disbudding via cutting do you shave the head first? etc.


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Please Please please take pictures whoever does this next.

Thanks,

Patty


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## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, I'd like to see pictures too. I said I was gonna do this, but when it came down to it I chickened out. :sigh

Would love more details and pics.

Thanx


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I am just thinking that on a newborn this would be easier on the kid and me too, but really want to know how it is done exactly


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## KUrby (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey Vicki, if you want, we can come help you with the 1st disbudding and I can take pictures along the way and we can post a disbud 101 with pictures if you want?
Karen


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

Pictures would be great. This really does sound better then disbudding if we can all get the hang of it.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2008)

Just had a long chat with my vet. about trying this method.........he was right in line with what Vicki has said, and thought this might be a better way also...
He did say that we should be extra careful in keeping the proceedure as clean as possible. His comment was that iodine would probably work well to disinfect the area. He also thought that using the hot iron (a little) on the spots after bud is removed would help also to stop any bleeding, and would help to control possible infection.

My first kids are due in 2 weeks.....geez, I'm really hoping one of you try this before now and then.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

whimmididdle said:


> He also thought that using the hot iron (a little) on the spots after bud is removed would help also to stop any bleeding, and would help to control possible infection.


First of all, what would be "a little"? If I'm going to have to heat that iron up at all, I'll just wait out those 20 seconds, and burn just someones head! :lol


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

that is what I was thinking too Stacy


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2008)

I assume that he was talking just enough to cauterize the wound. All he has ever done is to burn them off like the rest of us have been doing for years. So, this is a new idea for him to contimplate the best way to do this procedure also.

Whim


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I am going to give this all a try, and have several ideas. No way could you disbud fully the day the kid without frying the brain, the disbudding iron would only be used like Whim said. Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

OK found this and it has good pictures of just where to cut.
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/livestock/beef/husbandry/general/dehorning-cattle


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> I am going to give this all a try, and have several ideas. No way could you disbud fully the day the kid without frying the brain, the disbudding iron would only be used like Whim said. Vicki


Sorry, I was only giving Whim a hard time :blush No way would I use an iron on a newborn :nooo


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## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

Sondra, that was a good article.

It didn't seem to cover the way to disbud at birth as I understood Vicki to explain it. The knife section did seem similar.

I'll need to look this up in the archives, but I thought the new method was to cut an X and just extract the hornbud from the skin as it is still freefloating at birth.

I thought that meant that we wouldn't need to cut all the was down to the skull.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Think you are right but this just gave a picture of where the horn grows which I thought was helpful. don't think we have anyother archives tho abt this procedure, only this thread is why I brought it back up in hopes Vicki or Ken would tells us more and how.


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## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

Here's the original thread on the new board. did that make sense?

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=632.0

I was trying to get the instructions down well, but there doesn't seem to be much too it. Cut an X over the horn bud, slide the scalpel underneath the bud and pop it out, spray with Furall or cauterize the wound with the side of the hot iron.

For me it sounds too easy. That makes it scarey. :/


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## pettigrewfarms (Nov 14, 2007)

:nooo I not one to do any cutting but am willing to learn.

Deana


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

the other link on page one has even better pictures Well I am going to give this a try on those going to be butchered and castration because I want to know how and if it it less painful than burning the crap out of their head.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Disbudding with an iron really scares me, I had someone else do it for me last year. This I think I can do though! 

What about putting some ice on it first to numb it?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks Truly I forgot that was here and yes it does sound simple I am going to do it!! got a get a scalple tho. wonder if my sharp sign cutting knifes would work


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

All livestock catalogs sell scalples, I just used a disposable one. 

And cool Sondra, that is exactly the disk that was popped off in the kids. Remember cattle and goat horns are different though. Vicki


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