# Kids and Weight Gain and 10 lbs/month Average



## MF-Alpines

Because I second-guess myself all the time, I worry about weights on kids and so end up weighing every couple of weeks just to be sure they are gaining (you see them so much with all the feedings that you really can't tell sometimes). Plus, I need to weigh so I get correct dosages for cocci prevention and wormer. 

All my kids are growing just fine (big happy sigh, here). But what about bucklings? I'm guessing there should be more than the 10 lb/month goal. So if you had to set a weight for those of us who are new, especially with raising bucklings, what would that number be?

Sorry, but I'm a black and white person (living in a grey world) and if that number should be more than 10 lbs, I'd like to know, for a guide.

Thanks.


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## Caprine Beings

Nope, 10 lbs a month + birthweight. Same as doelings.
Tam


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## NubianSoaps.com

Alpines are huge kids, much larger than nubians...all bucklings overtake the growth of their sisters, all breeds, even the mini's. It's a MINIMUM amount of weight, more is great in big growthy kids, it is not great in unbred yearlings  Nobody is going to be able to tell you anything exactly, everyone does this differently, for my herd you gain at least 10 pounds a month or I can't breed you at 100+ pounds in December, you have to be spectacular for me to keep you anyway.

I weigh monthly because everyone goes on the milkstand once a month to be weighed and hoof trimmed, I will also worm kids...there is not reason to do it every 2 weeks. You can't make all this more busy work than it's worth or you will burn out. When I turn the calander I weigh and hoof trim and write everyones info at the top of the calander. Figure a way to streamline your OCD  Vicki


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## MF-Alpines

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Figure a way to streamline your OCD  Vicki


 :rofl

I read your response to my husband and all he could say was "THANK YOU!". I still can't stop laughing.

Thanks. Makes me feel better.


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## lorit

Hey Cindy, I am with you - weighing all the time especially that first month or so, then I "relax" a bit for the next couple of months.  But I did chuckle at the OCD comment from Vicki.


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## NubianSoaps.com

From one OCD person to another, I think anyone who stays in goats has a touch of it  V


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## prairie nights

Cindy, 

I am glad you brought this up. While the 10lb is the minimum there is also a parabolic growth curve with kids. They get a big jump start (I see mine go for 20lb minimum and up per month during the first 3-4 months of life), then it slows down some while maintaining a steady growth rate and it averages out at 130-150lb yearlings. The kids with more than the minimum weight of 10lbs are definitely more robust looking and at breeding weight (if you consider 90-100) at 6-7 months. Not that I'll breed them that young. 

For comparison, here are kid weights here. 

1 month old doe ..... 37lbs
1 month old buck (littermate brother) 35lbs
2 month old doe .... 48lbs
2 month old buck .... 63 lbs (this is an extreme, but still , his littermate sister weighs much less)
3 month old doe ..... 64lbs
5 month old doe ..... 84lbs

I am obviously listing the top weights here, but the average is much higher than 10lbs per month within the first 3 months, then slows down considerably to about 10-12lbs.

Jana


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## Golden_Seal

What are you feeding them to get them to gain that much weight? How much milk and how much a day/bottle? When do you wean them? What about grains? What are you feeding for grains and how much grains per doe?
Sorry I know it's an older topic but I'm just curious.

ETA - I went to the Goatkeeping 101 and found a bunch of info there.


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## MF-Alpines

Glad you found the info, Crystal. I feed my kids based on the info I've found here.

All the milk they will drink until they're no longer interested (about 4 months, maybe 5 here), grain is offered at a few days old. I fed them all they would eat for quite a while, then they levelled off to about 1 1/2 - 2 lbs per day per kid (broken up into two feedings). Alfalfa hay offered at a couple of weeks of age. For me, it seemed like they levelled off on the grain once their hay intake increased. They no longer finish all their grain; if I had to guess, I'd say they consume about 1 lb/day. Minerals were offered in the first week, but they really didn't consume much. I can't remember when they really did start eating the minerals, maybe at weaning time (?). 

And of course they received routine cocci and worm prevention. I do fecal often to ensure cocci and worms are not taking over.


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## Anita Martin

Crystal, my kids are seeing about the same weights as Cindy's and we feed our kids the same. All the milk they want, grain offered free choice from birth, wormings and cocci treatments kept up, etc. Bucks are weaned at 4 months, keeper does are weaned whenver we start running low on milk in the fall.


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## swgoats

I am dumbfounded by those weights. I bought two Nubian doelings from a dairy with good bloodlines and management. The fall kid is 45 lbs, and the spring kid is 35 lbs. Are there bloodlines that are more petite? If the doelings aren't genetically more petite, then I think the other girls have kept them from getting enough. Although I do remember this breeder telling me she doesn't breed them til 18 months cause they aren't big enough, so may be she raises them slower. I'm just surprised at the huge disparity between farms. These girls are all over tiny with little bones. I've had them on calf manna and everything else trying to push them along.


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## [email protected]

I don't get the HUGE weight gains. My March/April kids are 70/80 lbs, which is a bit over the 10#/month gain, but at 3 to 4 months they are 40/50#. Nowhere near some of the weights I hear on here. At appraisals in Aug, the appraiser asked me about one of my March doe kids--if she was still on milk. I said 'Yes-once a day.'. He said 'I would wean her..she's a pudge-butt. Fat over the shoulder, fat behind the elbow, fat over the ribs, fat between the thighs...Pudge-butt!' LOL
I have hay and starter/grower pellets in the kid pen before the kids are in it (although they only mouth/nibble for the first week). Kids are in the house for a max of 24 hrs before they are on the lambar and in the barn. Regular cocci/worming routine.
I do think genetics has something to do with it. I have three 1yr olds. The two dry yearlings are 120# and the FF is just over 100#. All were raised here on the same management. The FF's dam was a smaller type doe, though she gained width and 'bulk' ?? as a two yr old.


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## Golden_Seal

My does that were born in January are only around 90-100 lbs. I'm sure it has a lot to do with me having to move to a different place and wean them early. They are wormed but I haven' done cocci prevention.

Has anyone done milk 24/7?


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## NubianSoaps.com

Denise, but did you also tell him you are going to breed her? The point of free feeding milk and grain to kids is so you can breed them that first year and not have to hold them over to kid as 2 year olds. Makes little sense to pour the groceries to kids and then hold them over unless your rich or you want to put some junior legs on the best kids you have.

You want some pudge on your junior does as they are bred, I wasn't going to breed any of mine this year, but 3 are in with a buck as we speak, they will be fat if I do wait and kid them out at 2, the other 4 will be fine being held over. I normally breed my March kids in December, but I can't do May kids next year, so I have 3 right at or over 100 pound March kids in with a buck right now to have March babies.

Hands down it's controlling parasities, which Angie in most large herds isn't kept up like gospel like it is in smaller herds...it's also quality of colostrum and quantity of milk which in a dairy with milk sales, milk isn't going to go to the kids in any kind of volume. Why if you are going to buy from a dairy buy infants and grow them up yourself. And CAE test the day you buy them, there would be no rise in titer if the kid had not recieved CAE milk or colostrum. Vicki


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## swgoats

Well, this is good to know. It is understandable. These girls come from good stock, and I guess for the price I paid, it is a worthy project. The price was high for me, but half as much as what the smaller breeders ask. The black spotted one is out of a Pruittville buck. I've been working on her copper status. She looks rough, but way improved. She's the one I posted about awhile back that wasn't coming along. They are CAE negative, and it is a closed herd they came from. But I guess I just keep feeding them and hold them over before breeding them. The brown one I'd like to see gain enough for a late season breeding since she is already 11months.

http://stillwatersfarm.blogspot.com/2011/10/new-nubian-doelings.html


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## carlidoe

Even though my March doelings are at the 90lb mark, I am still going to hold them over. Last year I bred a 90lb, 6 month old doe and come March I had a 110 lb FF. I want BIG FF this go round rather than having to play catch up.


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## lorit

My March doeling is 90ish pounds and I am going to hold off and breed her in December when she is 9 months and should be 100+ by then. Since I milk all first fresheners thru that first winter I don't mind a late spring kidding.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Carli, something happened then, because if she was 90 pounds when you bred her and she gained 10 pounds a month she would have freshened at 135 to 140 pounds just like had she been kept dry. Vicki


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## fmg

What all do you do with your kids after breeding then, that keeps them gaining 10 lbs per month? I know it is suppose to be more economical to breed for yearling milkers, but it seems like if you have to keep dumping all kinds of grain into them, maybe it isn't if you do the calculations.


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## NubianSoaps.com

I could see if you had a woods pen or pasture all year that you could wean your kids into and then other than fecals, some worming, hay, minerals and trimming feet, it would be pretty cheap just to keep them dry and kid them out at 2 years.

I raise my kids out on grain anyway, makes for a better rumen and a growthier kid, so if she is going to hit 100 pounds at 7, 8 or 9 months and get bred, it is only 5 more months of grain and hay added to normal management to get her into milk with 2 or 3 kids to sell ($200 to $1050 depending upon if she has bucks or does)...so for my herd it just makes more economical sense. Figure a sack of grain a month per kid for 5 months ($60) compared to a kid who won't get a sack of grain per month, but also won't kid and have milk and kids for sale for 12 more months. Plus I get to see those udders and decide if I am going to keep them or not 12 months earlier. They also don't have time to build any fat in those thighs or udder, or around their ovaries and heart/liver.....in reality when you see the big 12 to 24 month classes out here in the Nubian's and La Manchas, they are big jiggly fat at the thigh and fat over the heart girth, while mine are all milking, just as tall if not taller, but lean milking machines. 

If you have any growth issues at all, when you purchase doelings, when you have had parastie issues or are unhappy with your nutritional program...than of course breeding doelings young isn't anything you should do...I nearly always hold over purchased doelings. Vicki


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## carlidoe

The doe I'm talking about was purchased. She also came here with some parasite issues. I also think that I was not feeding her enough during gestation to grow kids and herself. I should have waited or fed her a lot more. Lesson learned! I'm going to be more careful from now on and really put more thought into who gets bred and who doesn't. Last year I bred her because she weighed enough and was old enough. This year I dried her off and am going to put more weight on her before breeding her again.


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## Ziggy

One key to get these gains ( which all should strive for) is cocci prevention and plenty of growth (milk - not replacer) especially in the first month. If they have any issues in that first month or two It is my experience that they will be unlikely to reach their full genetic potential.


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## carlidoe

If you are raising standard size dairy goats, follow "From Birth til Kidding" in GK101. Feed them, worm them, do cocci prevention, and they will grow. It's a matter of following directions.


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## NubianSoaps.com

It really is Carli. If you watch posts, anyone with a sick kid always says "they were due to be wormed" or I don't do cocci prevention, I don't vaccinate etc. The protocol works, what doesn't work is waiting until you have sypmtoms of worms and cocci in fast growing kids and wonder why they stall. When you start worming or cocci treating at salvage there is no way you can have robust milkers who are 12 to 15 months old when they freshen.

Nearly all pnemonia we will treat on the board is from does who are not vaccinated for pasturella.

Nearly all cases of pregnancy disease will be metobolic this late winter and early spring from not feeding some form of alfalfa daily to your milkers. We will have deaths to pregnancy toxemia and ketosis, from treatment of these diseases, when it is hypocalcemia 99% of the time, everyone with a doe bred should read up in goatkeeping 101, Sue Reiths hypocalcemia papers.

So if you can't follow directions (and again I rarely breed does, I have purchased as doelings, that first year) than don't even think about breeding your does that first year.


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## carlidoe

And only keep what you can afford to OVER-feed. You won't get much growth on minimum amounts of milk/grain. I would rather have 2 or 3 kids/does in excellent condition, versus 10 or 12 in bad condition, because I'm having to ration feed. If you bring home something that has obvious health issues, you had better be prepared to spend some $$$ on wormer, vaccines, and freechoice grain and hay. JMO.


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## fmg

So, do you guys give them wormers and cocci meds, even when you don't see these parasites in their fecals? In other words, are you fecaling kids often, then deciding to give the meds or not, or just giving it to them whether you see the evidence of parasites or not?


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## Ziggy

I may not be agressive on worming as some because i dry lot my kids so they dont eat off the ground (or at least I try to have them not eat off the ground but of course you can't prevent them from doing so) but with regards to cocci prevention do follow what's in 101 - prevention is the key.


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## carlidoe

From Birth til Kidding, GK101

"At day 20, start on Cocci prevention. Use Corid or your sulfa, dosages in goatkeeping 101 on dairygoatinfo.com once a day for 5 days then 
repeat every 20 days until well grown and on meat goat pellets that contain their cocci med (decoquinate, rumensin, lasalocid, bovatec)."

"Worming kids every 3 weeks until weaned and well grown is the best prevention, along with cocci, giving you healthy, robust kids that can be bred their first year. Do not wait for symptoms of cocci or worms and then use treatment, think prevention always."

It's prevention, not treatment. Waiting for visible signs of parasites in kids will stunt their growth. After they're weaned and growthy, start fecaling. Don't risk it while they are in this important growing stage. I'm in the South, so this applies to my area.

I really think everyone should follow what's in GK 101 no matter where you are. It's just a good protocol. I was able to have 90lb kids at 7 months of age my first kidding season. I can't take any of the credit, I just did what had already been done and was proven to work. The doelings I raised this year will be bigger than their dams, which I purchased a year ago, in just a few more months.


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## buckrun

When kidding out in very cold climates this is less of a concern than in the southern areas that do not stay below freezing but bounce back and forth with little extended cold allowing the almost universally present oocysts to sporulate. We fecal randomly in young animals and kids rarely show reproductive parasites until after March here. This does not mean they do not have a feeding population. For coccidia they get their first inoculation the first time they lick something or latch on to a teat if dam raised. There is no way to 'clean' for sporulated oocysts so we assume they need the suppression of the cycle to carry them thru till they have resistance. We start prevention at 3 weeks old to prevent irreversible damage to the gut which happens long and long before you see any sign of illness or even lack of thriftiness. 
Here is a good rundown on the life cycle in ruminants

http://extension.umd.edu/publications/pdfs/fs508.pdf


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## prairie nights

Kids raised on goatkeeping 101 here versus kids who were not (when we first started) - can't even compare the difference in weight gain, condition, health. There is a lot to stay on top of breeding a spring doeling in the fall to kid in the spring, strict protocol to follow and a good local mentor are a must if you are new or it is better to wait it out especially if you only have a handful of does for hobby. So much easier to raise a dry yearling and then kid as a two year old - allowing some time to absorb the learning curve slowly. And they can still show. I am super pleased with my dry yearling to be bred this fall, she is powerful, tall, healthy, in excellent condition and was very competitive in her class at show. I can't afford to do this with all my doe kids (carry them over dry) but definitely keeping a few back to let them grow to their full potential and breed early in the summer if we get cycles for fall milk. I see so many new folks try to breed their March kid they purchased in the fall when they are still learning the ropes of their own management, nutrition and understanding just how hard they are asking a doe to work with pregnancy and upcoming lactation while still growing herself.


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## hsmomof4

> I bought two Nubian doelings from a dairy with good bloodlines and management. The fall kid is 45 lbs, and the spring kid is 35 lbs. Are there bloodlines that are more petite?


I imagine that there are, but that's not what you're seeing here. To me, a "petite" Nubian might weigh 175ish at maturity, compared to the 200+ you might otherwise expect. I have Kinder kids (who should in theory be smaller) on the ground here, born last Feb, who weigh substantially more than these does. I think the last time I taped the buckling, he was 85 pounds, the wethers about 75, and the doe, maybe 65-70? I'm not remembering exactly, but they are due for a weighing here anyway. And they are looking fabulous...sleek and shiny with well-developed rumens. (And my children have to put up with me, every time we drive past a certain neighbor's place, complaining about how terrible their goats look and how if they only would feed and worm them properly, yadayadayada. :lol )


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## swgoats

I have always bred mine at 8 months. This is the first year I've ever had dry yearlings. It was due to the fact that I didn't leave them with the buck long enough, and they didn't get bred. I'm interested to see how it pans out. I've never had trouble with my first fresheners, but I do tend to get singles. I do however leave doelings with the moms until breeding time. I suppose the extra milk has provided what was needed for growth. Purchased doelings are more of a problem generally speaking. I'm planning to be closed now, but if I get a hankering for a doeling, I think I will try to get a newborn in the future so I can raise it completely. I never like to sell bottle babies though, unless I'm sure the person knows what they are doing!


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## swgoats

Stacey, my grade Nubian doe weight tapes at 93 lbs and my buck at 125 lbs. No body would ever call them thin. The doe is looking rather pudgy. Her yearling wether is bordering on fat, and he is 50 lbs. They are small. They look just like Nubians, so I don't know what they could have in them that would make them so petite. They are at the lower limit of what is allowed for height for Nubians. I guess that is why I have such a hard time envisioning these 200 lb Nubians. I have no experience with such big goats. When I think "mini", I'm wanting half the size of my grades, not the size of my grades  These new doelings have not done well. They are the same weights as my mini kids. I have mini kids that are heavier! I guess I should trust my gut more. When they brought thhem out, I thought, wait a minute, these girls are smaller than I expected at this age. They are just delightful little pets. I'm just going to keep working on them.


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## carlidoe

Those weights definitely are not optimal. Because your's are grade there could be something smaller (maybe a nigerian?) somewhere down the line. Based on that, I can't argue your "petite bloodline" theory. There are some PB bloodlines that are shorter/taller than others, but not half the size in general. A 3 month old kid will weigh 30lbs. I think the best thing to do is to find a herd you admire and copy their management to a T. 

I am in shock that the 11 month old doe in the picture weighs 45 lbs. There are several issues that can stunt them to the point of no return. You can tell that the maturity of her age is in her head and face, but the rest of her body never caught up due to malnutrition, parasites, or both.


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## NubianSoaps.com

It's why you wear your weigh tape around your neck when you visit farms and you measure kids the same age as yours on your leg for heigth (so your not barn blind when you walk into other folks barns). And except no reasons for small kids, if a 3 month old kid is not 30 pounds plus their birth weight than run. You may take into consideration the doe being a few pounds light if her dam is young and she is a triplet, or an older doe having quads, but even then it's not the weights you got or how those animals look Angie. And ask for help before you buy, there is someone on the board who can mentor new folks in all areas of the US and we even have folks in other countries on here. There is no reason to end up with unhealthy animals when with one phone call I could have told you to run...and who to buy from instead.

I have purchased a buck and at one time a doe who were in just awful shape, you will never see photos of them on my website...but just because they were starved, not wormed and their feet were never trimmed, the semen and ovaries contained the bloodlines I wanted....you use them, glean kids and try to help their health issues. Vicki


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## smithurmonds

We retained a Spring kid who is already 50 lbs and she's ND. She's within the normal height range. She reached that weight with just milk, grain, and alfalfa like a lot of folks here feed, no extra supplements (and cocci prevention of course). I agree that those weights on the grades or even Mini-Nubians are not optimal.


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## Tim Pruitt

Our Grandchildren just showed their wethers born Feb 2. One was 98 pounds and the other 92 pounds. The 98 pound kid was the heaviest kid of all the 4-H kid's. There was 3 other kids larger than our 92 pound kid but not as large as our 98 pounder. This year they did away with the wether dairy class and our Nubians showed against the Boers. Because they were Nubian - they were dead last in the wether class of Boer goats.


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## doublebowgoats

Carli mentioned only keeping what you can afford to OVER feed. I really agree that until a person is really getting good results from their management, they should wait to expand the herd. It is soo much easier to care for just a few kids. And then, when you consistently have fat, shiny, growthy kids, increase the numbers.


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## swgoats

These conversations always seem to fall apart at some point cause too many goats get mentioned and things get confused. My 5 year old grade Nubian doe is 93 lbs, and like I said, nobody would think she is too thin. She is 28 inches tall which may be too short for breed standard actually. I don't know why she is so small, but her kids have grown fat and sassy, and they are small in stature too. It seems hard to believe with her breed character that she has ND or Pygmy, but being grade who knows. She makes nice petite minis with long legs and good breed characteristics. Maybe it's cheating. Nothing has cropped up yet to make me not want to use her.

The doelings I posted are purebred from good bloodlines. I do think something went wrong before I got them. I should have been more particular about their weight. Not being used to full size Nubians, I didn't realize how small they were. They've gained 10 lbs the past month, so that tells you how small they were when I picked them up. Hindsight's 20/20, when I bought them I went to a breeder I knew and whose farm I had previously visited and whose goats I had admired.

I don't know about a 50 lb ND doeling Nicki. I have a pair of very nice two year old ND bucks who are in good body condition. They weigh 51 and 45 lbs. Having spent much more time researching NDs, I do know there are definitely different body types. We talk about miniature versus dwarf, and I think that applies to NDs too. I have seen some NDs that have alot of body on little legs. I prefer the overall compact NDs. I look for a Mini Nubian doe to mature at about 75 lbs. I look to breed them at 55 lbs.


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## swgoats

Well, I see NDGA is claiming 75 lbs to be the average weight of an ND. I find that kind of odd, but I've always felt the AGS animals and NDGA animals were different although I know there is overlap. I still feel 75 lbs is the ideal size for an adult Mini Nubian doe (assuming my weight tape is correct). I would not care to have them larger than that.


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## buckrun

I love hearing management and results from as many people as possible. 
Thank you everyone - each of you who posted results of your management as relates to kid growth! The more information we are exposed to the more we can assess our own processes and move towards optimum! 

I personally have a very old very large line of Nubians that make me panic if the bucklings are not nearing 50 pounds at 8 weeks because I plan to wean them at 10 to 12 weeks and if they are not large enough to consume enough feed to prevent the growth stall removing the calories in their milk can cause- then I have failed in my management. I have to get them off milk and onto feeding themselves so I can sell the milk to pay for all this fun! My senor does routinely produce 45 to 50 pound twins at 8 weeks. The growth rate drops radically after 90 days but 10 pounds a month is something I only expect AFTER 6 months. 

So hearing that a year old goat weighs less than my early weanlings-that means neglect or cross breeding.
Just fyi Angie since large Nubians mystify you- here is Phoebe- 3 year old 220 pounds. She raised twins to 45 and 48 pounds at 90 days as a 2 year old FF -yes I carried her over because she was a one big long pile of bones and we do mostly graze/ browse. In this photo she has not had any supplemental feed for months. Minerals and what our land will grow plus garden treats. That kid growth rate is on half her milk production with 101 management plus a herd that has been born here- raised here - adapted here for a very long time which is the boost I think you see in many herds that have continuity. The dams have antibodies in their colostrum for anything any of the kids will encounter on this farm giving them few to no setbacks that would cost calories and growth time. 

Once again- thanks for this great discussion and for all the various ways everyone gets the growth they want from their kids. This has been such a good thread particularly if you look at the different regions represented. This is what a forum is about...sharing and helping each other learn to do the best we can by our caprine pals! Hope more of you will add to this! 
Lee


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## MF-Alpines

Wow! Lee, that's awesome!

Can we talk about weights of the various breeds? Because even these weights make me nervous that I'm not doing enough, but I don't have Nubians.

Here are the weights of my older does (I don't really have anything too old - I'm just talking non-kids).

Nettie: 4 yo grade (alpine, but mother, even though an alpine, not registered): Purchased 2 years ago: Wt: 155 lbs
Addy: Dry yearling (born here from purchased dam - dam had no depth of barrel, not showing good rumen development - culled due to CAE udder) Wt: 105 lbs
Lexi: Dry yearling, purchased last year from reputable herd (should have bred her last year, but didn't trust myself) Wt: 135 lbs
Libby: Yearling FF, purchased from different reputable herd, weight when purchased: 105 lbs, Weight now: 115 lbs. Was milking !+ gallon/day when purchased, now at 1 gallon)

They look good except I have issues with Addy (skin, coat, a little scrawny like her Mom). I'm pleased with the rest of them. They do not seem smaller than other herds (went to shows that have great Alpines), especially Lexi. So I think we're doing well.

And my kids from this year: Triplet doelings from the doe I culled. Born mid-March, two are 90+ lbs and one is only 75 lbs. Same management, no issues, follow GK101 for feeding, prevention, etc. Took weights a couple of days ago. Weights at birth were 6.2, 6.6 and 7.0 (birth order). The little one is the same one that is now only 75 lbs.

Maybe Ziggy will pipe in for me here. Seems like Nubians have much more weight, yet I distinctly remember Vicki saying something about Alpines gaining much more weight than Nubians. So I'm confused.


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## buckrun

I want to make sure everyone realizes my Nubians are not unusual. All the local herds working with these lines have these weights and weight gains. It was just an illustration for reference. Breed average is somewhere around 135 pounds for a ff doe but the senior yearling class at Nationals 2010 was uniformly very much larger than that. BUT....many of the Alpines and Saanens made them look petite! They gain weight differently and they have different bone structure. We had an Alpine herd in the 70s and they were much smaller than the Nubians I work with now even tho from the top production herd in the nation so things change.So yes Cindy there are differences in breeds but also in lines within breeds all affected by management. 
L


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## swgoats

Phoebe is gorgeous Lee! You know, I have questioned if my grades didn't have some angora in them. Angoras are more mid-sized, and these goats can really grow hair! After copper Birdie is growing long soft silky wavy hair. I am so intrigued by it. I've considered getting a nigora buck and breeding a dual purpose fiber milk goat with the Nubian influence. Angoras are supposed to be fairly decent milkers. But I'm kind of turned off to shopping for goats right now. I really tried to upgrade this past year, and I've had alot of learning experiences. :/


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## Ziggy

Since I was asked to chime in here -- I have full grown Alpines that are both smaller and larger than my full grown Nubians -- and there are also different styles of Nubian lines, however this thread is about growing them out and in the first year I don't see much difference in the weight gains between the two breeds.


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## mamatomany

I pretty much follow Goatkeeping 101. Prevention...prevention...and more prevention. I also don't wean early. I feed them goat's milk until they are at least 16 weeks and eating raw grains and munching heavily on alfalfa hay. I have only one spring kid that I kept. She is over 100 pounds now with a large rumen and spring of her ribs. I have a 4 year old who is pushin 200 lbs. Large rumen, no fat other than her girth. They don't eat much grain just a ton of quality alfalfa hay. 
I have always had kids that were breedable the first year on the management outlined in 101. It is fool proof. I am an excellent student tho, as I don't have time to re-create the wheel. I see what works and follow it to a t.


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## prairie nights

I have Nubians and here are some weights for comparison.

My smallest milker is a 3 year old who is only 150lbs and I consider her short and small, she was not raised on cocci prevention, bred too early, nutrition issues, the classic scenario. She is a nice doe with a good frame and very nice udder but you can see on daughters that the size is related to management and not genetics, since her doelings are 115lbs at 10 months.

The rest are as follows :

Adults

Fern ... dry yearling, will be 2 in the spring ..... 155lbs

Truffle .... yearling FF .... 130lbs (this is a minimum here for a FF to freshen at and I would like to see better, this year we plan to breed at this weight to start with and compare results. )

Pink Tulip ... yearling FF .... 150lbs (bred older than Truffle, past 12 months of age, better weight at freshening, larger kids than Truffle)

Imagine ..... 2 yo FF ...... 205lbs and counting (bred as a yearling to kid as a two year old, not bred or freshened here, can't take credit for her great condition, that goes to Holly Buroker of Hoanbu Nubians, but she gained 20lbs here since May 2012)

Camilla ... 3 yo 2nd freshener ..... 160lbs , would like to see more weight on her, ideally 180lbs, she is a very high producer and tends to milk a lot of weight off

Boston .... 3 yo 2nd freshener ..... 160lbs, not very capacious doe but a good milker, slightly shorter than Camilla

Christie ..... 6 year old .... 190lbs, a short doe but with nice capacity

Spring kids:

Velvet - 10 months - 120lbs
Harvest - 10 months - 115lbs
Jasmine - 10 months - 115lbs
Lavender - 10 months - 115lbs

(Note: this was a set of kids who went through a bad case of pneumonia and their gain was effected so I won't even consider it optimal for what they could have been but it is acceptable and they are healthy, tall, thriving and looking great)

More ....

Calypso - 9 months - 100lbs (not born here)
Summer - 8 months - 103lbs (not born here)
Belinda - 8 months - 102lbs (not born here)
Saffron - 8 months - 99lbs
Celice - 8 months - 97lbs (not born here)
Birdie - 7 months - 99lbs (not born here)
Rea - 7 months - 85lbs (not born here)
Biscotti 7 months - 87lbs (not born here)
Splash 6 moths - 75lbs (not born here)
Independence 6 months - 87lbs
Hummingbird 6 months - 84lbs

Not a good comparison of home born and raised and purchased kids since we sold a lot of our doelings but they all had comparable or better weights than shown here. Only several of the above does will be bred this fall. Pictures can be seen on my website. Like Linda we shoot for a large well developed rumen per Goatkeeping 101. Hope this helps some.

http://www.oldpathshomestead.com/


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## fmg

I have a really petite alpine, that is 2yo 2nd freshener...she is only 130 lbs, and kind of thin. I don't know a lot of her history, because I bought her as a yearling ff. I know what herd she came from, and know that they have nice goats, but have no idea what age she was sold to the person I got her from. She does not have very good rumen development. She is also short, I think lower than they are even allowed to be. She also has a major attitude problem. I love her structure though, and she's got a great udder. She throws large kids, so I know that it is in her genetics. Something got messed up along the way. She'll probably be sold after her next kidding, since our personalities clash so much.

My alpine doelings that I got from Tracy were born at the end of March and are all between 85-90 lbs.

My MINI alpine yearling ff doe I've had since she was 2 weeks old, is 100-110 lbs. (can't remember off the top of my head...and that's with a weight tape which supposedly doesn't work for minis, but she's HUGE).

Dry yearling Togg (just got bred about a month ago) is 120 lbs, but looks larger than the first alpine mentioned...not sure if I believe the tape.

mini alpine doeling, 6 months old, I think is around 60 + lbs already, she's out of the first doe mentioned, and was 7.5 lbs at birth (single).

I don't know why I have such giant minis, lol. (well, probably because their parents are genetically large or perhaps because they are first gen's and have the hybrid vigor going).


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## hsmomof4

I did go out and tape the kinder kids this evening. The doeling is 80 pounds, the wethers are 90, and the buckling I am assuming is around 100, since he weighed 10 pounds more than the wethers the last time and I did not tape his stinky self.  For comparison, my adult kinder does (coming up on 5, and therefore definitely mature) are 140 and 120. The heavier one is a bit taller, but she also has a much greater depth to her barrel. (The smaller one is a better milker in terms of quantity and length of lactation, though her teats aren't as nice.) My nearly 3 y/o kinder buck is about 165-175 when he's in good weight (ie, not now in the middle of the rut). My nearly 3 y/o nubian doe is about 190. She still has a bit of growing to do. My goats were all raised on the "101 Protocol."


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## swgoats

I think they just mean you can't weight tape mini babies cause they are so small the weights aren't printed on the tape. It's ok for older goats, I think? I saw Suzy's Mini Alpines, and I bet they weight tape higher than my Mini Nubians. I've worked with Mini Nubians from two other herds besides my own, including adults that weren't raised on my management. I don't think I'm way off base looking for 55 lb breeding weight. I am wondering if more width of chest is desirable - that would affect the tape weights...


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## fmg

Oh, I so wish I could see her mini's in person! They look lovely from their pictures.


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## swgoats

They are  We had a nice little Mini Dairy Goat event she put together. It was fun. Got to see a Mini Togg too which was a treat for me.


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## smithurmonds

I looked back at my records- the 50 lb doe is approaching the 10 month mark. She was actually born in February. That's not taped, that's my husband picking her up and getting on the scale. I think that yes, there are some differences in weights in NDs but I would not consider her size, weight, or type outside of the norm. She was ~40 lbs in June and leveled off after that, but continues to mature. I purchased a 2 year old first freshener in June who was very clearly raised with a management style that affected her growth. She actually weighed less than my February kid (and every other adult in my herd) when I purchased her and still does despite gaining some weight. She is clearly stunted and it's difficult to put any condition on her. It's a shame. It is a difference that is easy to see though, regardless of type. You can see it in her overall appearance and proportions, her ability to maintain condition, and her coat quality. She has improved since June, but she'll never reach her full potential. 

I think this will be proven by growing out her kids properly.


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## carlidoe

smithurmonds said:


> I think this will be proven by growing out her kids properly.


That's exactly where I'm at right now. I have a 3 year old third freshener I bought as a 2 yr old 2nd freshener. She was the smallest doe at that farm. I remember thinking, "Why is she so little? Everyone else is so big!!" Now seeing her daughter at 6 months old, I can see what probably happened to her. This line does not need to be bred to freshen as yearlings and she is a VERY high producer. She just wasn't getting the nutrition she needed to milk and grow. I love this 3F of mine and really want a bigger/taller version of her, so I'm holding her daughter over. At seven months old I can tell that she is much improved over her dam and is only a few inches shorter. I think I might just reach that goal 

Now, for my confession of underfeeding my yearling FF. I bought her as a kid in the Spring and bred her that Fall. I should NOT have done that :nooo. I was feeding her good hay and feeding grain "occasionally". I was keeping them fat and in good condition, but not feeding enough to grow them. If only I had joined this forum sooner! I kick myself every day for that. Anyhow, she's a nice productive little doe and weighs 110 pounds. She was a really nice, tall kid and would have been a nice big doe had I not screwed up. Her twin does are 10 pounds lighter than her at 7 months! I'm holding off on breeding this FF until she weighs 130-140lbs. I owe her that. She's gained 5 pounds in 2 weeks so I might just reach that goal as well.

With the size of my kid crop I have proven that the size is there. I just have to work on my management. Next year I will not make this mistake again, but I'm sure another one will replace it lol!

And Angie, I need to apologize for my comment earlier on the weights of your minis. I was thinking "standard" and failed to notice the info in your signature. And I know that you are aware of the condition your two new Nubian does are in and I hope you can get them straightened out.


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## swgoats

No problem Carli, it gets confusing talking about all these different breeds. I've been looking at Angoras now wondering if my grades really have some of that in them. The wether was a mother son breeding, and he is really growing hair. I wonder if I could get a DNA test? I really like the flat lock Angoras. They seem to be kind of rare.


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## buckrun

In my experience mentoring new owners an important feature for early success is to focus on a goal that is simple. Perfect health is a good one- successful kidding another-a great kid crop that thrives will result. Trying to improve a breed or develop a line is not going to happen in most back yard herds particularly with less than basic skills. 

Keeping few animals of a consistent type to learn successful management and to develop an eye for all that great goatkeeping entails will make it a more enjoyable endeavor with a better outcome. Focus! 

I want to add that 'early' weaning here is only for bucks and wethers but I have freshened does that nursed until they were 8 months old just because their dams would let them do so and there is no appreciable difference in weight gain or overall health that I can discern that would encourage me to spend hundreds in milk on one animal. After a young animal is ruminating and building digestive capacity it is actually beneficial to get them off the calorie burst of daily milk so they will work to replace it with roughage that will expand their capabilities for a life time! Doing it early is another step to those successfully breedable yearlings or seriously milky 2 year olds. If feeding alfalfa the calcium levels in milk are negligible and if feeding grain the calories are unnecessary and this will all happen sooner if you force the issue. 
Lee


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## NorthOf49

Slightly related questions... looking at all these weights, are they taken using a weight tape or weighing with a scale? And if it's a weight tape, are the measurements similar to the weight chart at Fias Co Farm http://fiascofarm.com/goats/weight-chart.htm : (for example, a goat with a heart girth of 27 3/4" weighs around 72lbs?) How accurate are these weight tapes? Are they only accurate as adults, are they accurate on skinny goats, are they only accurate on dairy goats? I picked up one of our smaller kids and using the bathroom scale she measured 50lbs. With the weight chart she was 70lbs. Two options: chart is inaccurate or the scale is inaccurate and I'm 20lbs heavier than I thought. Eek.


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## fmg

I was using the weigh tape. There is a tape made for dairy goats that gives wieghts based on length around chest. The chart is probably similar. If you are weighing with a scale like that, you have to weigh you+her then, weigh yourself. I don't think it would work very well to just go by what you think you weigh...people flucuate weight quite a bit. I have weighed myself in the morning and been one weight, then later the same day or the next day and been 2 lbs heavier...just depends what you have eaten/drank, whether you've been to the potty, etc. My bathroom scale is very accurate, so I know it's not that.


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## smithurmonds

NorthOf49 said:


> Two options: chart is inaccurate or the scale is inaccurate and I'm 20lbs heavier than I thought. Eek.


:laughcry

A 2 lb discrepancy is one thing... but I think you'd have noticed 20 lbs.


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## JamieH

My March kids are over 100lbs. My April kids are over 90 lbs. I'm breeding them all in November. I followed the 101 plan. I weighed them every 20 days to check on corid doses. I never had less than 10lbs growth in that time, as they've gotten older it is usually right at 10lbs a month. I weaned them earlier than most people do I think. I fed all the cow milk they wanted twice a day, but they were all weaned by the end of July. I am now feeding about 1lb of medicated feed a day for each goat with free choice alfalfa pellets, good minerals, baking soda, and hay. I have nubians.


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## swgoats

Lol, I just sold my "big buck", my grade Nubian. For kicks I weight taped him. I've been feeding extra to combat the stress of the rut, and he was a whopping 140 lbs! We took photos, and he does look small with me, compared to photos of folks holding purebreds. Funny thing is dh and I both find him a very big handful! I am now terrified I have allowed an American buck into my herd!! I think I picked the right breed going with minis!!


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## carlidoe

JamieH said:


> My March kids are over 100lbs. My April kids are over 90 lbs. I'm breeding them all in November. I followed the 101 plan. I weighed them every 20 days to check on corid doses. I never had less than 10lbs growth in that time, as they've gotten older it is usually right at 10lbs a month. I weaned them earlier than most people do I think. I fed all the cow milk they wanted twice a day, but they were all weaned by the end of July. I am now feeding about 1lb of medicated feed a day for each goat with free choice alfalfa pellets, good minerals, baking soda, and hay. I have nubians.


I agree with Vicki when she says that she does not breed purchased doelings their first year. This is even more true for new people. If you do not have milk customers lined up for Spring or have a show schedule, it's really worth the wait. Sure, they could gain and do fine, but then again they could not. If it's a doe that you think you are really going to like and are not in a hurry to cull based on udder, then why not wait? I have seen Jana's 155lb yearling, Fern, and wow. That wait is my FF goal. What I am doing with my two retained March doelings is breeding them late next summer for winter 2012 kids.


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## JamieH

I've thought a lot about breeding this year or waiting. I only have enough room for 7 goats for the next two years. I have four now, and I've already got a doeling reserved from TLC for this breeding season. I really need to see udders and make some choices. I'm not saying that if I don't have perfect udders, I'm going to cull. But I'd hate to have poured an extra year of money into a doe I end up culling. If my girls weren't as big and healthy as they are, I'd wait. I'm comfortable going forward with breeding based on my management and all the wonderful mentors in my area who are so helpful. Hopefully I'm making the right decision for my girls.


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## buckrun

Your girls looked very well grown in the photos you posted. 
Maybe you can get rid of the gerbil and make more room for more goats  
Lee


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## JamieH

The gerbil lives at school and makes me very popular with 25 second graders, she is worth her weight in gold!!


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## carlidoe

I only have room for 6  so sad.


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## buckrun

:rofl I thought Texas was BIG


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## JamieH

It is, I just don't own any of it. The guy I board with has let me expand twice... I don't want to push my luck. :biggrin


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## prairie nights

Jamie, 

considering you want to show, don't put all your eggs in one basket  I mean - with everyone fresh they will all be competing with each other at the yearling milker class (usually the toughest class to win), while you could hold your best doe (based on conformation) or two for the dry yearling class ? Or if you freshen for spring, you can freshen one group and keep the second group to breed in July and kid in the fall when people will pay ANY price for a milker  Just a thought.


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## buckrun

> these weights, are they taken using a weight tape or weighing with a scale


Chris this is super relevant to the discussion. 
We use an old grocery store meat scale for kid weights and for animals I cannot lift 
I use a seamstress tape with measurements in inches and use the pounds per inch chart.
We compared the pounds/inch method to a bathroom scale with my husband lifting some 60 pound wethers and it was accurate.

Lee


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## fmg

Just weight taped that 6 month old mini alpine I was talking about earlier...she's actually not even 6 months yet until the end of the month. The tape weighed her in at about 70 lbs! That is more than 10 lbs a month gain and she is a mini! Oy, she is going to be a big girl! One of the alpines taped at 97 lbs, and the smallest was 87. I think I need to feed them a little bit more grain; the pasture is down a steep hill from the quonset hut, and most of the goats go up and down many times a day. The doelings especially run around like silly butts all day.


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## hsmomof4

Re: the weigh tape vs actual weight things: I was wondering about that lately, as my husband and sons hunt deer and he was saying one time how much he estimated a particular deer to weigh, based on having had them weighed on scales when they were brought in. The weight that he said he thought this deer weighed was much less than I would have estimated, based on what my goats weigh, but then I've never picked up my nearly 3 y/o nubian and stuck her on a scale! At any rate, I have this kinder doeling, like I have mentioned previously, who tapes at right about 80 pounds. This morning, I had my 18 y/o son, who routinely carries 50 lb feed sacks, his 75 pound brother, and assorted weights for weight lifting, pick her up and give me a best guess on her weight. He guessed "about 80 pounds."


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## NubianSoaps.com

My mini's always kept up with the weights of the standard Nubians living on the same lambar, it wasn't until the Nubians were moving into the yearling pens to be bred did the weight difference start. Obviously the mini's were always shorter and stockier. Depth of body, width, a well developed rumen and bone all weigh a lot, there was very few differences in weight between my minis and my Nubians.....it was common to see a 5 year old mini weighing in the 130 to 150 pound range, they milked like it also. Not a fan of slight goats, be it mini's or mature does (especially in LaMancha, we bred Yazz and Redwood Hills bloodlines in the large breeds because I was not a fan of the refined LaMancha's in Texas)


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## swgoats

That is very interesting Vicki! We have about as opposite tastes in minis as can be it sounds like.  To me it isn't really a mini if the depth of body and heaviness of bone is the same as a standard. It it just a short standard. I actually cull goats that are heavy and stocky like that. I am looking for a miniature that is overall petite, dainty and refined. I guess it is whatever floats your boat!


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## hsmomof4

Angie,
You are misunderstanding what Vicki said. She also is not a fan of having a full size goat on short legs and calling it a mini. But her full size nubian does are 200+ pounds, which is practically an entirely different animal than your 11 month old nubian doe who weighs 45 pounds. To be completely honest, that's not "dainty," that's "stunted." (And no, I'm not blaming you for that goat's size.) Now, that's not to say that you don't prefer and breed for smaller minis than she would, and there's nothing wrong with that, provided the goats are within the breed standard, such as it is. But such smallness should be achieved through breeding, and not through "management." (In other words, the goats should be small because they are genetically small, not because they have not been fed or wormed properly.)


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## prairie nights

Angie ... but in standard Nubian overall petite, dainty and refined could also mean "not in condition", stunted or lacking in health. While there are so many "types" in Nubians, a good strong doe with good bone pattern and well developed rumen is a sign of a healthy, productive animal with longevity and I find it odd to strive to breed for the opposite of the spectrum ? I don't mean bulky or dual purpose, I am talking about a doe with a lot of dairyness but also power and stature, since those all go together in both show ring and appraisal and the breed standard .


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## NubianSoaps.com

Angie, if you go to my website, can you not see the difference between my minis and what you have purchased or grown out in your kids you posted this year? The girls are deep bodied, exude dairy character, openness of rib, spring of rib, width...all of that is what gives you milk. On my website can you not see the difference between the nubians you purchased and put photos up ofand those goats.


I so agree with Jana and Stacey, you can't buy your way into the mini breed by thinking a stunted doe is going to throw stunted kids...well she will if you continue with the management of those kids photos you put up.

Like I said before, I want a miniature Lamancha that looks like a full sized LaMancha in a miniature form....not a dwarf form. Those 4 girls were the foundation of my stock, all 4 milk as much as all but one bloodline of my Nubians, they all can be milked commerically with inflations that are used on the big girls because they were bred for large hand milkable teats. For the LaMancha breed they also carry very good feet and legs. That is how you start a breeding program, you than put a buck over them that will improve the problems you have breed wide (these does are also linebred so it's easy to see, just even looking at the photos what needs improvement) length of bone, rumps, feet (because VG isn't good enough), udder, smoothness of blending and head and upstandingness....so I put a buck over them that is out of a E udder GCH, really pretty heads, with generations of 90 appraised does and bucks who threw 90 appraised does and bucks including a premire sire, I leased him because I only wanted to use him once. Your buck you use is way more than half your herd when you are starting a new bloodline, let alone a new breed, what does the buck you purchase have that will improve your goats?

So for me it is so much more than it's just a short standard, its the package that gets me that short standard.

In dairy goats, petite simply means lacking strength, stunted, unhealthy and usually unthrifty.


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## swgoats

I don't think a discussion about breeding minis will get us very far for a few reasons. 1.) I pretty much have no current photos of my core herd up on my blog right now, so I have no examples of what I am speaking of. I definately am not suggesting some stunted Nubians are it. That black spotted doeling is out of a Pruittville buck with Doctor Luke in the pedigree, so clearly she shouldn't be what she is! 2.) I have to shop at Wal-Mart and Target, while you are speaking of using Dillards goats 

Beyond that statements made exemplify that we simply have different visions. You speak of minis giving as much as standards. To my mind, what is the point in that? I *want* less milk with long level lactation. You speak of machine milking, once again, I *want* udders that are easily hand milked, but teats proportant to the smaller size of the goat. You speak of weights the same as standards and body capacity same as standards - for me that is a no, no, no! I want a smaller goat. Not just a shorter goat. Petite can be sturdy and hardy, good mothers, who do not require routine interference in births or assistance raising their kids. You say it is not dairy. *I* say it is a new vision of a dairy goat well suited for the smaller modern family and hobby farmer. You say you don't want to limit them to the pet market. I say I don't want to limit them to the standards that are presently established for the standard breeds. It is a new breed with a new purpose and new standards. To me a 150 lb Mini Nubian is unacceptable. There are much smaller goats that can and so give 1/2-1 gallon of milk a day. I'm not saying I don't admire your goats or what you ate doing. But I am after something different, and there is market for what I am after.


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## buckrun

It is my opinion that most people should have a "vision" of a 
100% kidding season (all live births of healthy viable ready to roll kids) and 
100% kid crop weaned in perfect health with everyone an improvement over the last generation then on to 
100% retained doelings grown and in perfect health for breeding and kidding and
100% settling and carrying normally and
then on to practice the ability to run that cycle repeatedly and perfectly for a few years without major mishaps as a "goal" before worrying about new visions of new breeds for the future. Seems sorta arrogant to be setting out to "breed" a new line if a person is not even capable of worming on schedule or doing cocci prevention adequately or keeping a goat milked so her udder is not destroyed and then blaming it on the goat.

Arguing about what makes a mini is so beside the point until basic skills are mastered and I don't think people should be encouraged to think they even know how to talk about this let alone accomplish it until every animal in their care makes me drool with longing to own it because it glows with health and dairy correctness. Understanding genetics in the dairy goat is far beyond the desired scope of most people that own goats for the pleasure and products they give. 

Back to Kid Weights  ME - On Topic - imagine :rofl

I have continued zinc reading and found a tidbit relevant to using milk replacer that may explain why some people fail with it and others seem to have no issues and produce vital kids using it. Soy foods are high in phytate–a compound known to inhibit the absorption of minerals such as iron zinc calcium This blocks development of the immune system and normal growth rates. Ruminants lack the enzymes to break this down and there is evidence that some replacers are from soy that has not been correctly fermented or precipitated to reduce the phytic acid levels causing malnutrition in the infant goat by blocking even the good levels of calcium available from soy as well as other minerals listed above.
I am snooping further to see how to obtain the information of which products have been treated appropriately but the main indicator seems to be price. The added processing adds cost. 
Lee


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## swgoats

I find it odd that anyone would breed anything without knowing what it is they want out of the breeding. Knowing what you want is how you decide what you want to keep and what you want to sell or cull. What, just breed mutt goats for no purpose but to pour your money down the drain? Breed goats you don't even like? It is not arrogant to work with a vision and a purpose. All the little digs and snide remarks are nothing more than injured pride because a youngen has decided they want to go a little different direction. I share my experiences, the good, the bad and the ugly, so others can learn with me. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me or not liking the direction I chose to take my herd. But to state I have no right to have an opinion - *that* is arrogance.


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## swgoats

Really, anyone who has owned goats for a year or five, should at least know, as a consumer, what kind of animals they wish to own. That doesn't require some kind of specialized qualification....


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## MF-Alpines

But Angie, there are breed standards and specific characteristics of dairy goats that should be the goal of every herd. Certainly you would strive to produce better kids than their dams and basing that off of tangible data such as what LA is based on? And you can't even start to get that without proper care and nutrition.

I, too, started at Walmart. Maybe not even Walmart for me - The Dollar Store. But by breeding up, my kids look FAR BETTER than their dams. And by following the basic protocols on GK101 (tweaked for my area) my purchased does are much healthier, overall, than when I got them, and my kid crop this year (only 2nd kidding for me) is doing extremely well. I will breed 2 out of 3 this late fall as I have learned so much that I feel confident that I can do this with them.

I am using bucklings this year to breed my does/kids, but both come from extremely well-bred herds. I'll admit, I'm a little leary not using proven bucks, but I really needed to get my own as I have too many does (for me) to take to outside breedings. So I'll take that chance.

Cindy

ps. I liked what you said, Lee. I might have to cut and paste that and print it out and post it in the barn.


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## NubianSoaps.com

I think it is much more about, we are talking another language. I am talking about animals that can be registered, produce milk because even a homesteader knows the value of milking one healthy doe to get the same amount of milk from 2 or 3 lesser quality ones, which comes from breeding to registered stock, which comes with pedigrees known to produce what I am looking for. For disease resistance an being able to produce this kind of milk on very little grain, in fact so much if given more than a pound of grain a day even in heavy lactation my minis would gain weight. I am not going to spend money breeding to get $100 animals into homesteaders hands that have Angora in them, that are part Nubian with no breed character...I have no interest in using bucks who don't come from dams I admire, or who are not better than the does I already own. 

I know from being an old person that breeding mutt to mutt gets you mutt, and not being able to understand that in the reading of your posts, all of us old folks see the errors in basic management practices, the mentality of more is better when in fact keeping a small herd of high quality animals so you can buy or lease the best buck around, so all the milk and feed and hay can go into 5 animals instead of 12....heck there isn't a soul on this forum who is in driving distance of me who hasn't used or bought a buckling for walmart prices from me. You have said in your posts you THINK she may carry angora or??? how can you breed a consistant line with this? For 50$ you can breed to bucks that you only can dream of one day owning, so why shoot your breeding's in the foot with the buck you purchased....compare his dam to the dams of my bucks. 

I loved the Dillard's comment, most who don't know me say Macy's or Rodeo Drive....but I certainly am not the person you think, or others think I am. My goats built my barn, my goats feed themselves, my goats paid the bills while my husband started his business, fenced my property, started my soap business and are building my soap room, no family money goes into my goat business. I bet I paid the same or less for my foundation Nubian's than you paid for your unregistered ones, I bet I paid less for my mini start because I traded Nubian's for them. I have bought goats on time...but yes when I go after a buck I pay top dollar, that is how important they are. In starting a new breed your buck choices are even more important to your breeding program, maybe more than even in established breeds. I can tell we both have very different goals by the quality of your bucks.

I agree with Lee, get your basics down first, and being on the forum you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Being surrounded by excellent Nubian's in Texas you also have at your disposal excellent animals to start your lines with, you have one of the best ND herds also. Now moving to Indiana there are beautiful does on this forum there, perhaps you could be mentored by those gals.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I am also entitled to mine and I will continue to correct the errors in your posts with mine after them, until your way is shown to work better.

Now off to read your blog and see who will star in it this time....Lee or me


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## smithurmonds

I like that a couple folks have touched on the fact that when an animal that is "petite" because it is stunted from poor management that it's not a reflection of the animal's actual genetics. I'm obviously not breeding for larger and larger goats- I have NDs. But there is a difference between an animal that is genetically small and one that just never reached it's full genetic potential. That will become obvious the first time someone grows out the animal's offspring properly.


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## buckrun

Continuing the discussion of kid weights I have found an intriguing abstract and am attempting to get the entire report but the summary of the study indicates that high levels of organic zinc- those that have been chelated for easy assimilation are beneficial in controlling the number of coccidia in kid goats. Some of the abstract is posted below and I will add to this if I can get the entire report. For now it seriously reinforces my surmise that zinc is much underutilized in goats.

Quote from : *Effect of inorganic and organic zinc supplementation on coccidial infections in goat kids *

Kids from the control group did not receive any additional zinc, the second group was supplemented with inorganic zinc (zinc oxide), the third group was given zinc lactate, and the fourth group received chelated zinc. Samples of kids' faeces were taken weekly (a total of 7 samples were taken). Samples of faeces were examined by a quantitative method to detect the number of oocysts. Kids were weighed weekly and their blood was taken in order to determine zinc concentrations in blood plasma. Animals from the group supplemented with zinc chelate and zinc lactate shed a significantly (p ? 0.05) lower number of oocysts (13.4% and 11.9%, respectively) compared to the number of oocyst shed by control and zinc oxide supplemented groups (25% and 49.7%, respectively). Shedding of oocysts was not accompanied by clinical symptoms of coccidiosis in any of the groups. Kids supplemented with zinc chelate showed significantly highest weight gains and blood plasma concentration of zinc (p ? 0.05) as compared to control and inorganic zinc supplemented groups. Organic zinc is to be recommended to be used as a prophylaxis against coccidiosis in goat kids.

Jana will be interested to know this research was done in University of Veterinary and Pharmaceutical Sciences Brno, Czech Republic


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## NubianSoaps.com

Excellent point Nicki and all in one paragraph  I do tend to go on and on! Just a tiny bit passionate. V


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## smithurmonds

Interesting Lee!!


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## swgoats

Cindy, there was nothing in your post that I disagreed with. The only point I was touching on, which is apparently Spanish to some, is that I wish to see body capacity that is great, but in proportion to the small statute of the mini. If the body size is equal to a standard, then I personally consider that too large.

Vicki, I have no idea what you are like. I only know you sell goats for more than I will pay. And I'm not saying they aren't worth it. I know they are! But not for me. I keep more cause I like them, I enjoy them, and I can. I like bucks. I enjoy them. They are a hoot. So if I have one for every doe, I feel only a little guilt. Because in the end, I have goats cause I like them. Not because it needs to make any financial sense. I can totally understand that is a foreign idea, but it is not all that uncommon. I like my little goats, and I see improvement in them year to year. I have no illusions or aspirations to make them something they aren't. When it comes to minis, I think they should be mini, and from genetics, not malnutrition - totally agree.

PS Go check that blog out


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## carlidoe

smithurmonds said:


> I like that a couple folks have touched on the fact that when an animal that is "petite" because it is stunted from poor management that it's not a reflection of the animal's actual genetics. I'm obviously not breeding for larger and larger goats- I have NDs. But there is a difference between an animal that is genetically small and one that just never reached it's full genetic potential. That will become obvious the first time someone grows out the animal's offspring properly.


Yes. That's what I was getting at with my stunted doe confession, just couldn't word it like this. She is small because of bad management, not genetics. The growth of her doelings prove that.


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## swgoats

I got your story Carli. Thanks for sharing it. It did help me as I considered the situation with my new doelings.


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## fmg

carlidoe said:


> smithurmonds said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like that a couple folks have touched on the fact that when an animal that is "petite" because it is stunted from poor management that it's not a reflection of the animal's actual genetics. I'm obviously not breeding for larger and larger goats- I have NDs. But there is a difference between an animal that is genetically small and one that just never reached it's full genetic potential. That will become obvious the first time someone grows out the animal's offspring properly.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. That's what I was getting at with my stunted doe confession, just couldn't word it like this. She is small because of bad management, not genetics. The growth of her doelings prove that.
Click to expand...

Yep, same with my alpine doe. It's kind of unfortunate too, because she is so beautiful...I think she would do well in the showring, but because of whatever happened to her, I doubt she would now. Her full sister was the champion doe at our local fair as a ff 2 year old, and is also much larger, mostly in the body, but also a little in height.


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## fmg

MF-Alpines said:


> But Angie, there are breed standards and specific characteristics of dairy goats that should be the goal of every herd. Certainly you would strive to produce better kids than their dams and basing that off of tangible data such as what LA is based on? And you can't even start to get that without proper care and nutrition.


Just because, "that's just how things are done", doesn't mean they HAVE to be done that way...that's not really much of an argument. Not everyone has the exact same tastes or preferences, and neither should they, I think. LA is a tool, showing is too, even though it says, this animal is better than this one, that doesn't mean it's true, not to everyone. Of course most people are breeding for better animals, for what is appealing to them, at least I would hope so. Though it does seem most are breeding for what others think is better, and not necessarily themselves.


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## NubianSoaps.com

I breed what I like, but this part of the forum is about education, and those asking questions are better served knowing that LA, showing, and being mentored on prevention management, are the best ways of getting a quality doe who milks, who kids succesfully, who gives them saleable kids, each and every time. Only after you have the basics can you then branch out and have any kind of success by the seat of your pants. That really is my point in this thread.....how can you even begin to think you can successfully breed a new breed when you have never bred a nice goat yourself? When you obviously don't even have basic management nailed down? Now in OT, ask the question again  you will get a much different answer from those who are doing it. Vicki


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## Caprine Beings

Management, management, management! Though an animals genetics play a role in milk production...its management for 80%. 
Tam


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