# Kidding question - Update



## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Magic kidded 12/27, twins, went in to check if she was all done & didn't feel anything. She passed her placenta about an hour later, but has been pushing, squatting & standing on straw bales with her forefeet & grinding her teeth.. Could it be that I missed one? would she have passed her placenta & still had one more? she's been eating, though not much unless it's cookies.  goatie cookies, that is, not chocolate chip!  
Anyway, I've not had a doe strain quite like this postpartum. Should I give her some Banamine?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Go in and see. A doe can have one, two or three kids in one horn, pass a placenta and have one, two or three more in the other horn and pass a placenta. She can also be pushing because she has ripped her cervic...a small piece will be loose and push inside her cervic and she will push and push to get it out...until it heals, or gets stitched.

Go in and see what is going on, check both horns....then yes banamine if it is a ripped cervic so she will not exhaust herself straining. Vicki


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

I could still go in _now_? How would I be able to tell if her cervic is torn? 
:sigh


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Don't think so Stacy but I might be wrong 
I would probably give the banamin if she is grinding teeth and some calcium maybe Vicki or Kaye will come back on and tell you more.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Sorry didn't even note the date.

Is her discharge normal? Do you or anyone never you AI so you can see the cervic to see if you are dealing with a tear? Do you have some lutelyse 2cc IM to give her to open her back up and see what is going on? Use her being open again to flush her uterus with tetracylcine.

Is she sqatting and straining only after you milk her? What her temp? Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Stacy I have lute if you need it.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Well, I went out to check on her and she had gone out to pasture with the rest of the herd for a while and was seen at times, sitting like a dog. I thought the sunshine would do her some good so I waited until they came back to the barn to "check her out". I took her temp, 102.9 what little that was hanging out is no longer there and there is no unusually foul odor. She seems tight and was very uncomfortable with me trying to feel, which felt like... ?? Nothing really out of the ordinary, but what the heck do I know. :sigh She is pooping normal and no, does not strain only after milking. I can get lute from my vet, but didn't get to the post in time to read & go & get it. 
She's not straining _constantly_, but is clearly uncomfortable. Good lord I can't describe it well. :blush The person down the road that has helped me with goat stuff before was of course, not home. I gave the doe 1 1/2 cc Banamine SQ. and will be going to milk her in about 1/2 an hour. 
I'll also be keeping an eye on this post in case of any new bright ideas.. (I wish I lived close to Vicki


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Shoot Stacy I wish I lived next to Kaye  Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

is she eating??


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Yes, she's eating, though not a lot. She would eat the whole bucket of what I call 'cookies'. they are ApplezN'Oats horse treats and the goats think they're wonderful.
I made up a warm water compress for her with Tea Tree, Lavender, Eucalyptus, Peppermint & Fennel oils & a dash of Dawn dishwashing liquid. There is nothing hanging out & nothing seems out of place, though I still find her standing, front feet only, on the straw bales in the barn, and on occasion, grunting like she's straining. :/
Her Temp was still 102.9 this am, and right now she is out in the pasture with the rest. 
Heck, I just wish I was close enough to someone who could look at my goats & tell me what was wrong.. but don't we all. :sigh


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

If she were mine Stacy she would get BComplex /BoSe/ and CMPK


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Update... I say your post last night, Sondra, just didn't get a chance to reply till now. 
I gave her 2cc B-Complex SQ & 1 1/2 cc Bo-Se SQ, I didn't have CMPK but I did have a bottle of "Goats Prefer" Calcium drench & went to give her the recommended 30ml drenched.. before I could get even 10 ml in her she gagged, wretched, almost pulled the milkstand over, and started crying and drooling.. I was thinking "what the H$&&!" I finally got her untied and out of the barn and then squirted a bit of the stuff in my hand to taste in and OMG it set my mouth on fire!! I ran back to the house to rinse and made a warm Aloe/water drench to rinse the doe's mouth out.. She now looks at me like "oh no! here she comes!" :nooo
Needless to say she wouldn't eat after that, not even a cookie.
This morning, I found her eating hay. She only nibbled her grain and would only eat one cookie. When she went back out, she went back to the hay feeder, then made that grunting/straining/pushing noise and popped out a poop! It was not pellets, but neither was it diarrhea. I found more of the same in the barn in a heap. Do you think that after all this time she's only been trying to poop!??
DH thinks I need to give her a dose of Mineral oil.. :/


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Stacy,
I have a friend who killed her best yearling this year with the Goats Prefer Calcium!
She aspirated it into her lungs, fighting trying to keep from taking it. I hate oral Calcium gels - they are caustic and will make your goats not want to eat because of the burning that causes. I have used Citrical Calcium for humans, it dissolved well in water, when I was in a pinch and didn't have CMPK or MFO.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

could be but if she is pooping now then maybe she is getting it out ok as for that calcium I do know that the cmpk gel stuff burns like crazy and people mix it with snow cone syrup deluting it down before giving.

I also have gotten a liquid peoples calcium at the health food store and given it. and it was tasty yum stuff also in goat 101 is sue Reiths recipe for homemade cmpk


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

I just got off the phone with the vet on staff @ VetsPlus, the manufacturer of the "Goats Prefer" calcium drench.. He said that the Calcium Chloride is an irritant and the irritating factor is designed to cause the drench to "bypass the rumen to be quickly absorbed" I asked him if he's tasted it and he said no.. I told him they needed to adjust their label because if given a choice, my goats sure wouldn't "prefer" it!
I'm on my way back to the store to return it..


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

made as an irritant now that is real nice.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

You know, it's pitiful that there are so many "new" products coming out for goats, that are pretty much useless!!! Since the Boer goat industry has come to the forefront, there has been lots of interest in making "goat" products, but they turn out to be mostly hype.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

I feel so horrible!! Like a bad mom.. :down She's again standing on the straw, I offered her a cookie, but she just rolled it around in her mouth then let it fall. I can only imagine how raw her throat feels.. I let some poor guy at TSS know how I felt about them selling such a product without a warning label, though it doesn't make anyone feel any better. 
I'm going to go now to make her a cup of warm tea...


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

do you have camomile tea that would sooth


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Yes, I have camomile, actually a mix I got somewhere called "Sleep". I mixed a bit of that, some slippery elm bark, alfalfa pellets, a dash of mixed herbs I keep in the fridge, some Mullein and a small spoon of honey. She sucked it out of the gun  I'll give her more when I go to milk. 
BTW.. thanks for the support.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2008)

*Re: Kidding question*

What about comfrey juice? Wouldn't that help the mouth and throat heal and make saliva? I know the comfrey helps aid in digestion.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Keep an eye on her temp for a few more days. Vicki


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Black Licorice I've got chunks of that to make tea with for sore throats that would sooth her.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

Black licorice.. hmmm no wonder I like it!!  She's been doing better, still on the 'tea" twice a day, and her temp has remained the same.. She's started eating a bit of grain, but only in the evenings, and only a couple of bites. At this point, I wouldn't let her eat more that a few bites more than she ate the previous time anyway. She'll eat a few vit-C and a couple of cookies, then want back out of the milk room 
It's going to be cold tonight.. I am SO ready for summer.!!


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

I didn't see this post until too late.
My thoughts on this would be:
1. Kid still in her
2. Cervical tear
3. Uterine tear
After 5 days and she's not dead or has a HIGH fever that rules out the 3 above. I would continue to watch her for a high fever or a sudden drop in temp. for another couple of days. 
I would have continued the banamine for several days after kidding to relieve her, would also have dulled the pain if it was a cervical tear.

:rofl Vicki...if you lived closer...we'd both be tickled! Then I could call you and let you diagnose and save me some worry!!! LOL...you diagnose and me pull meds! Hey, works for me!
Kaye


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Kidding question*

I don't know if Arkansa is ready for both of us  Vicki


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Kaye, I did give the banamine for 3 days, actually, evenings. Her temp is 103. She's started eating in the mornings, just a few bites and milk production is up a tad.. though, she still grunts/pushes when she poops, it's normal berries and nothing seems amiss. 
:shrug


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

You are absolutely going to LOVE me...but with her straining to poop...maybe you should check her for a internal rectal tear into the vagina. To check without an AI speculum, lube your index finger and go in as far as you can...feeling along the top of the vaginal wall and also for fecal matter.

I've seen it once in a doe and several times in equines. On equines it is a major complicated surgery but can be fixed at one of the vet. teaching schools. In the doe, she was euthanized because the owner wouldn't fix it. 
Just a thought.
Kaye


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

:faint I need to do what?? :really I would love you no matter what.. my goat, on the other hand, well.... will let you know what I find. :sigh


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

You may need to let a vet check this doe out. Hopefully, it's something fixable and she won't have difficulty settling another pregnancy. Do you have a vet in your area that has any goat knowledge?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

If not Stacy you need to bring her to Decatur because of Janie's info we have a great VET and very reasonable. Theresa and I both use him and also believe Janie knows of another in the area.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Stacy,
If you don't have a reliable goat vet, contact Nat Adams in Denton. 940/387-6090, her clinic is near the intersection of Loop 288 and Hwy. 380 (University Dr.). Nat knows goats - raises goats herself, and has for 30 years or better. When I get totally stumped and don't know what to do, I call her. She's the only vet that I trust to put a goat under anesthesia!!


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Update.. a friend came over to help (& console) and neither of us could find anything noticeable from her rectum, ie, there was no entry point to the vaginal canal that we could discern. She did have some dried goop on her the outside of her vaginal area, at the top towards her rectum, but it wasn't interfering with her pooping at all. We used a warm water wash and pried most of it off.. The doe was quite uncomfortable and was starting to protest, so we quit for the evening, went to get feed and got a flat tire :/ WELL, this morning, she is still pushing, not grunting like she' was, but NOW something is coming out her vagina! WUWT! Lubed up and checked it out.. and it feels firm but pliable like a stuffed toy, is the diameter of an oval 1/2 dollar, doesn't (does not) smell like anything rotten or of feces. :tearhair Oh, and her temp is 103. Just to make sure my thermometer was working correctly, I took the temp of one of my dogs.. it's working :biggrin 
We do have a vet around here that sees a majority of everyones goats, but I've heard good & bad and that makes me nervous. I will be calling Dr Nat Adams in Denton in the morning to see what she thinks. Thanks for her #!!!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks for the update and let us know what Dr Adams thinks
also Thanks to Janie for that number too in case we ever need surgery.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

That doe has been pushing for FAR TOO LONG. I'm in absolute agreement...she needs to see a vet! 
Possibilities:
Trying to prolapse...either uterus or a cervical prolapse...neither a good idea.
Vaginal wall prolapse, or ???? Geez, I'm not much help! 

I've even run out ideas on how to stop it! And not sure a vet can.
I would love to hear the vet's answer. This is a first for me.
Kaye


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

I made an appointment with our local vet this am, & called Dr. Adams.. got the doe to the vet and lo and behold, she has a retained kid. Really, a beautiful picture of it on X-Ray, turned sideways.  They will be doing a C-section later on today. This has been a hard learning experience. The vet showed me how I needed to be 'going in' and how to 'sweep' her abdomen for kids that could be way in the back. (towards her head). He also said that when dispelling afterbirth, their temp drops and so she could have been running a fever all this time (?) On the way home, Dr. Adams office called & said that I needed to bring the doe in. I feel so inadequate.. will let you know how it turns out.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Stacy,
Glad you found out what the problem was - I sure suspected this to be the case and should have called you. Wish you were letting Nat do this C-Section for you!! I'll tell you about her - she doesn't mince words, and will tell you up front what she thinks, even when it's not what you want to hear. She loves it when things turn out better than she predicts, but she won't give you false hope to add to disappointment, if things don't go well. If you've never had a C-Section, be prepared for lots of TLC for recovery - make sure you have Banimine, goats really suffer with something like this. Good luck with the doe.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh,MY!! That didn't cross my mind as you stated you'd went in. 
GREAT! that they taught you how to go in and how far!! Heck, I've been in past my elbow to check for kids. All the way to the front of uterus. It just never dawned on me to ask.

Sorry it's come to this...but, with care and luck, you should have a healthy doe in a few weeks.
Kaye


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Just checking on your doe - how is she???


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Yes, waiting on an update.
Kaye


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

They started the surgery around 3pm.. last I heard, from a tech, was that she was doing well.. they will call me in the morning to give me an update and let me know when I can pick her up.. I doubt I'll sleep well, dreaming of being more 'aggressive' in my search... :sigh
I'll let you know how she is in the morning.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

She didn't make it :down


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh Stacy am so sorry. :sniffle


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

So sorry you lost her.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear this Stacy.

Take care,
Sara


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

I am so sorry Stacy, please know my thoughts are with you.

Hugs,
Christy


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## Terry (Oct 27, 2007)

Oh no, I'm sorry Stacy.
Terry


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

So sorry, Stacy, I just read this post this morning. I am so sorry for your loss,


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm Sorry Stacy what a shocker!


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## 2Sticks (Dec 13, 2007)

Stacy, 
I'm really sorry for your loss.

Tamera


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

I am so sorry you lost her.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry Girl!

If you have to have a C section again, just pay for the vet to come out, or go with the doe for the C section. Have a standing section, local given to the area. Obviously in your does situation antibiotics IV and fluids. They have soo much better outcomes without anesthesia with surgery like this. Manageing pain and continueing the antibiotics at home. Vicki


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks everyone.. it's really been a hard lesson to swallow, as well as an expensive one. I will, for a while anyway, beat my self up for not being more aggressive in my search. I will pray to God that I don't ever have to have a C-section done, but if I do, I will have it done here, thanks Vicki, I'll save this info in my goat-book JIC.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

I worry about vets unfamiliar with goats, doing c-sections with anethesia, other than gas. 
1. Goats do not tolerate zylazine well...I dilute mine at 1cc(100mg/ml) zylazine to 16cc of sterile water.
2. They do not tolerate ketaset at all...
3. Goats also do not tolerate overdoses of lidocaine.

Like Vicki said...a little zylazine(and the reversal), and do her with a local, standing.

Sorry about your loss and that we couldn't be of more help.
Kaye


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## Rebecca (Nov 8, 2007)

Stacy,

I am so sorry to hear about Magic. :sniffle I feel your pain. It is so hard to loose them especially so unexpectedly. Thank You for giving me the opportunity to purchase Magic's doelings. The girls are growing Annie weighs 10# and Belle weighs 12.5#.

Rebecca Boling


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm sorry to read this.


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## Whitney (Oct 27, 2007)

I'm sorry.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't want you to think that I'm beating you up when I say this - everybody has a tragedy from time to time.
But, please, never wait this long to take action on a doe that is still obviously in pain after kidding. It's not always a retained kid, it can be several things as Kaye mentioned, but you have to find out. I had this very situation happen to me about 20 years ago. A big old soggy bellied Nubian - delivered two healthy kids, passed placenta and went on about her business. She had delivered late evening - next morning, she was pawing some, restless and occasionally would push a little and I could tell she was uncomfortable. I did not want to go into her to check, but my gut feeling was, that something was going on, and I had to find out what. So, when my husband got home, he held her while if cleaned up, lubed up and went in. There was the third kid, turned crossways. I manipulated it around and pulled it out. Could not believe my eyes when it went to wiggling around. Anyway, my outcome was a happy one, saved my doe and this little doe kid that I would have never thought would be alive after such a long time. I so wish that this had been the case for you - don't beat yourself up, lessons sometimes are hard and expensive, and no matter how long you raise goats, there's always something new to learn!


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

Sorry you lost her.


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## Keeperofmany (Oct 27, 2007)

I'm so sorry you lost her. :sniffle

Wendy


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## goatmom (Oct 26, 2007)

So sorry you lost her Stacy.


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## donna (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm so sorry you lost her.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks you all for the kind words.. I just pray that everyone reads the "going in" & "re-arranging" post, and that a lot of heartache can be diverted. Even if the doe isn't a national champion, or the kid worth beans, it still hurts 'cause you love 'em.

I was reading a book last week from Koontz, that had a wonderful line..

"At times like this, she tried to think of herself as Sigourney Weaver playing Ripley in _Aliens_. Your hands were damp, sure, your hands were cold, all right, and your mouth was dry, but nevertheless you had to stiffen your spine, work up some spit, open the damn door, and go in there where the beast was, and _you had to do what needed to be done_.." Amen.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

So sorry to hear the outcome turned out this way Stacy. Sorry for your pain.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Sorry Girl!
> 
> If you have to have a C section again, just pay for the vet to come out, or go with the doe for the C section. Have a standing section, local given to the area. Obviously in your does situation antibiotics IV and fluids. They have soo much better outcomes without anesthesia with surgery like this. Manageing pain and continueing the antibiotics at home. Vicki


First let me say, Stacy I'm so sorry for you loss...Don't blame yourself. Just learn from it. When I loss Charlie, I was really beating myself up. I promised I would learn from her death, that the entire herd's future health issues would be improved from what I learned caring for Charlie.. I now see this as a GIFT that Charlie left to both me & her herd...

Now for a c-section question for Vicki... The only vet we have here is a cow guy(wonderful with dairy cows) He is only a mobile vet (no office) He is not overly well stocked. I've talked to him about coming out if we ever need a C-section.. he said, he wouldn't mind at all (I told him we could do it in my kitchen if we ever need to.. He however knows he's no GOAT expert. He told me to ask and find out the choice of drugs & amounts.. Vicki? Kaye? anyone? Kidding starts in a week and of course, five of the first to go are ff's!.
susie, mo ozarks


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I worry about vets unfamiliar with goats, doing c-sections with anethesia, other than gas. 
1. Goats do not tolerate zylazine well...I dilute mine at 1cc(100mg/ml) zylazine to 16cc of sterile water.
2. They do not tolerate ketaset at all...
3. Goats also do not tolerate overdoses of lidocaine.

Like Vicki said...a little zylazine(and the reversal), and do her with a local, standing.

Sorry about your loss and that we couldn't be of more help.
Kaye


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

Thank you much-ly.. (Kaye? I'm so confused, why am I seeing Vicki's avatar but *hearing* Kaye???) 
We will do everything we can to advoid a c-section. I'm pretty good now at untangling heads & legs & such. Have also surprised myself at being able to work out a couple big kids, that I was SURE wouldn't ever fit thru... BUT it's either the cow vet or it's hauling a doe about 35 miles each way.. to a HORSE guy??? he won't come here... thanks for the info
susie, mo ozarks


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I just forwarded what Kaye said on the 3rd page  vicki


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## UnRuli Acres (Oct 26, 2007)

I had one doe under anesthesia to repair an injured leg. The dilution needed for the Xylazine was very weak and I was on pins and needles throughout the surgery. My vet is an excellent surgeon, but he "doesn't do goats" (he only dealt with mine because I'm an employee). He did his research and spoke at length with two vet friends very familiar with goats (one of them a retired vet and big Boer goat breeder in Texas) before proceeding. The surgery to add the screws/wire went great as did the surgery to remove them. However, I know for a fact this is not normally the case. Very few vets know much about goats and even fewer of them know anything about surgery on goats. The books with information on anesthestitizing (sp?) that my vet referenced weren't very accurate and if he'd just followed those then the doe would not have made it.

I'm sorry you lost your doe Stacy. I know how hard that is, but I also know we always learn much information from these sorts of things. I hope the remainder of your kidding season goes without incident.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry you lost your doe. Several years ago a freind had to have a C section on a doe who had a retained kid. It was done the day after the doe had a healthy doeling. The other kid had died prior to the birth of the healthy kid and when my friend tried to pull it, the kid just fell apart. The doe died the day after surgery. I think with dead retained kids the situation is more fragile than with a more routine c section. My vet uses a general anesthesia on my does for c sections and the does have done well. He's experienced with goats and I trust him. I've also watched two standing c sections by another vet. The first doe made it, but wasn't able to have more kids. The other doe also had a torn uterus and was put down. She had also got real shocky toward the end of the surgery and didn't want to stand. They were going to have to put her under and spay her. It was more merciful to have her euthasnized. I plan to stay with my current vet even though he uses a general as both of my does and also two of my friends' does have made it and were also able to have more kids.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

goatkid said:


> My vet uses a general anesthesia on my does for c sections and the does have done well. He's experienced with goats and I trust him.


Be very, very cautious when using general anesthesia. Most vets would never use it in the case of a C-section; I know my vet certainly wouldn't nor would our University!

We have had a few c-sections here over the years and all were done while the doe was awake and standing. All recovered quickly and went on to have more kids and finish their championships. 

I'd question a vet who wanted to use general anesthesia. Usually the vets who want to use it are pet vets and really don't know any better.

JMO,
Sara


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

This vet does both large and small animals. I questioned the general anesthesia as well, but the vet thought the does would do better that way. Since I've never actually seen him do the surgery, I don't know what kind of stuff he uses. When I had to take a doe in to have her prolapsed uterus put back in place, he gave her a spinal and when she continued to have contractions, he used gas as he is aware of goats sensitivity to anesthesia. Maybe they just do the spinal and gas. I do know the goats come out of whatever they use much faster than the dogs and cats I've helped wake up at the spay/neuter clinics I help at.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

:down So Sorry


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