# PLEASE HELP--Doeling drooling with head tilt.



## peregrine

I am so sad. Please tell me what you think.

I have 2 does with 2 doelings each. I also have 2 bucklings in a separate pen. 

All my animals are fine except one that showed up sick this morning. She is a doeling born Feb 25. She is 50 lbs and was healthy a couple days ago. I say "a couple days ago" because, although she looks really bad this morning, something in her disposition yesterday made me momentarily wonder about her. Basically yesterday morning she was a little late coming out of her sleeping quarters, when everyone else popped up bright and happy. But after that she just really looked like one of the herd yesterday, ate, drank, played like the rest of them. 

This morning she has a sliver of her tongue partly hanging out, drool dripping of her mouth, she holds her head low, and her ear tilted. She can walk a straight line, but is reluctant to lay down. I dont know if she can drink, she tries to eat, but can't. Last night when I fed everyone at 10:00 PM she seemed to eat. Although I didn't watch to find out, she was just right at the feeder acting all excited like the rest of them. Energetic and fighting her way to the trough as usual. She wasn't able to nurse her dam this morning.

I have not taken her temp yet this morning, but I am pretty good about feeling for it. She doesnt feel hot. I will take it later. I have already done enough to bother her. I watched her pee, and although it was darkish, there was a lot of it. And her poop was totally normal.

So, this morning I gave her Thiamine, Penicillin G, Bose, Vit B and Banamine. 

I also gave her a shot of Ivermectin, in case this is a brain parasite. We do have a lot of snails and deer around here. She is on daily medicated meat pellet feed and has been wormed with cydectin.

Can you give me any help, advice or hope? She is such a sweet girl. Her sister is doing fine! So are the other babies. Now I worry about them. I also worry that if this is listeriosis, do I have to be concerned about the milk we drink raw? We have been drinking it for about 3 years with no problems....What is the next step here? 

Thank you so much for any help....
Alisa~


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## peregrine

I have to say that my goats are on pasture, about 2.5 acres. They have been eating grass, browse and lespediza/timothy/orchardgrass hay. I seperate the doelings from the mamas at night and milk once a day in the morning. This doelings sister is a couple lbs heavier than her--about 55 lbs--and has milk goiter. She is a hoss and very healthy. Her mama is my oldest milking doe and very healthy too. All my goats are looking good and healthy! This is just confounding me....I am lost....


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## peregrine

Should I have given dexamethazone for brain swelling? I have it.


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## KJFarm

If she is feeling OK, other than the drooling and head tilting, she possible just has facial nerve paralysis, from taking a blow to the head. Is an eyelid drooping? Ear drooping? Dexamethazone will help, and if she's just been hit in the head, she will probably make a full recovery, may take days or a few weeks. Do take her temp. - if she has a fever and is acting really ill, this could be Listeria. Watch her carefully and make sure she is drinking. You will notice that she will lose feed from the paralized side, and will lose cud also.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Agree with Janie, especially about taking the temp, it's really the most important thing for a diagnosis. Vicki


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## peregrine

She is drooling severely and her tongue is partly out. Yes her ear is drooping. No eyelids are droopy but her eyes seem "far away." She is definitely not feeling ok. She looks like she is on deaths door. She stands with her head low, doesnt want to lay down, wanders around but when feels threatened runs directly to her shelter and stands again, like she is ready to die, literally. She is very slow and would stand doing nothing if I didn't go in and bother her. She is interested in eating though, only she can't because of her tongue and drooling/paralysis. She was trying to eat hay, unsuccessfully. I held out two oak leaves for her, this actually caused her to slowly turn and just as slowly walk toward me to sniff it. With much difficulty and fatigue she was able to manuever the leaf into her mouth and tear a piece off. She then became resigned to not eating and went back into the darkness of her box. 

So we sit and wait. 

The Penicillin G I have is old. Its been refrigerated for the whole year (+) I have had it, but nevertheless, it is old. I also have Biomycin. I read in a Sue Reith article that I should give that. I don't know what to do.

I feel so bad for her. I don't have anything to tube her with. 

I assume I should not put her with her mother, in case there was a way for her to possibly get some nutrition through nursing. I wonder if it would be better not to in case she does have listeria, I dont want her mama's milk to become contaminated....I dont know I dont know I dont know what to do.....


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## peregrine

I'll go take her temp now.


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## KJFarm

Do you have Thiamine (B1), injectable? If not, do you have FORTIFIED B-Complex? Start her on one of them ASAP. Do take the temp.


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## peregrine

YEs her temp is elevated to 103.5. She is afraid of me now because I gave her so many shots. But when she apparently saw me with the red food bucket she walked over to me (slowly) to see what I had. I brought her some alfalfa pellets which she seemed happy about. But she cannot eat them easily, so I put some water on them to puff them up a bit so she can lap at them with her drooly tongue a little at least. I am also afraid she may choke on them since they are the large sized pellets (about an inch long). When you touch her eyes, she seems almost blind. Thats the far away look. When you touch her lids, they close very slowly, you can really touch the actual eyeball before she gets a chance to shut the lid. She is not quick and twitchy about anything. She's like molasses. But she must be able to see because she can see the oak leaves and the red bucket.....


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## peregrine

Yes I gave her the Thiamine.


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## peregrine

Goodness, is this going to effect my whole herd? Do I need to send a milk sample to LSU? Why is this affecting just one goat??? UGH!!!!


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## peregrine

I would say I havent fed too much pelleted feed at once. I go according to the directions on the bag. And there is no mold in the hay or feed. 

So everywhere I read about Listeriosis VS Polio -- the drooling is always in the LISTERIA symptoms and doesnt happen in the polio. Correct? If so, I am thinking Listo because he main symptom is drooling. In which case I am considering putting her down, considering the low survival rate. I feel like she is an infection reservoir for my other animals. Would I be wrong?


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## NubianSoaps.com

I would certainly have a vet see her before you opt to put her down. There isn't a goat on my place in this heat who wouldn't have 103 for a temp, make sure and take a penmates temp, listerosis temp would be in 105 or 106 and they are recumbant. Your vet can also tell you the dosage to give of Dex also using banamine if you have it to keep her temp down. All swelling of the brain disease (tetanus, menengial worm, listerosis, polio) cause neurological symptoms, but so can injury like Janie said. So can worms like tapes and even inner ear infections.

I would guess she has listerosis except for the temp and that she is walking around albeit slowly, plus you gave banamine already so perhaps this is why she is only 103?? If she is not a valuable animal to your herd and you don't want to spend the money for a vet or drugs...and I am not a good nurse either, the idea of treating an animal in this heat, which for this doeling is going to be subq fluids and shots round the clock...than yes put her down. All the drooling and no being able to drink or eat you have to keep her hydrated. But nothing you have done is taking down the swelling in the brain, which has to be done now. Vicki


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## peregrine

I gave her 2.25 ml dex. I am going to give her IV fluids. I am also going to call my vet to find out what tissue samples need to be saved to determine a cause of this, to confirm or rule out Listeria. My does had abortions last year. We treated everyone with medicated feed and antibiotics. We have been drinking the milk, the goats poop in the yard on the way to the milkstand and my kids refuse to wear shoes, I milk in my laundry room, we were all there for the births, investigating placentas, hugging wet babies--you'd think one of my family would have gotten sick with Listeria by now! Not that I am mad about that, but it just confuses me! If this is listeria, I feel like I need to get out of goats. Is that crazy? Am I overreacting? I feel sure it is LIsteria, and I have jars and jars of milk in the fridge that I am now too scared to drink. Yes, this pisses me off. As you can see, I try to do stuff right, and I feel screwed right now. Sorry for the rant.
And thank you for the help...


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## NubianSoaps.com

I just would freak out yet. Listerosis may fit some of the symptoms but this is not a normal disease process in a kid this age, this time of year, when you don't feed silage or the goats are not eating hay off the ground, paraistes, filth...wild animals also can bring it in on their poop....or one of your adult does can be a carrier, pooping listerosis contaminated poop around the yard. Pasteurise your milk to 165 until you get a confirmed diagnosis of this kid. The incubation period is 2 to 3 weeks (but usually in about 48 hours everyone who is going to become ill is ill).


If this kid has listerosis than her dam likely does or someone in the pen, so run fecals on the group, find the doe...that is the animal I would destroy. The carrier aspect of the disease is the scarry one, she can pass this disease to the herd, to you, with not one symptom. Thankfully this is rare. And once again just so rare in kids!

Are your adult does CAE negative?
Do you see white tail deer, or is your hay harvest from area that have white tail deer?


Vicki


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## peregrine

I really dont know where my hay comes from. I got it from a friend and the lespideza is local and yes deer around here are heavy. My does are CAE neg. My animals have hay put in a feeder but they do eat it off the ground when it falls. The lezpideza was a round bale that was set out for all the animals to eat. They ate it quickly once it was set out, within a week (2 horses, a donkey and 8 goats). 

Now I am really worried because I dont want to put anyone down, MOST ESPECIALLY the oldest doe I have. She is the dam of this one and also mother to another very healthy big doeling kid. Shes a great milker and my favorite girl. 

Both my does aborted 2 winters ago. I treated everyone for every possible zoonotic disease and assumed that would treat any carrier situation. Isn't that an option? My vet said that there isn't much to definintive diagnosis on listeria. He said we can keep and test her brain tissue to give a diagnosis on the sick doeling, but that this would not mean the dam was a carrier. He said that he wasn't sure we could tell if my doe (her dam) was a carrier or had it in her milk. He was going to look into it for me. 

I figured with this kind of prognosis on getting an actual dead on diagnosis that I would go ahead and treat everyone for listeria and consider them negative after treatment. Would this work? 

THANK YOU!


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## peregrine

What is the fecal test for listeria?....This freaking SUCKS.


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## buckrun

The fecal test for listeria is only effective in a actively ill animal. Otherwise it takes a spinal tap so you cannot blood test or fecal test unless they are actually currently sick. The problem with this is it takes a week for results and so is often too late to help you design a protocol. I would still test a fecal sample from the sick animal now just to rule it out so you can quit freaking out about your other goats and go back to using the milk. It is killed at 165 degrees. It is actually quite ubiquitous and isolated from many species of animals that can transmit it so it need not be that your other goats are the source. It can however be plated out from milk samples so ask your vet to find a lab that will do this if you feel like you need to test the dam.


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## peregrine

I do feel like I need to test her dam. And I will collect a fecal on the currently sick doeling. I dont expect her to survive, but I wont feel comfortable with this situation until I know the reason. I can live with a fluke, with a wild bird feces being accidentally eaten, etc. I cannot deal with my milkers being carriers of this and having my children or myself/husband drinking infected milk. Although we have been for the past 3 years so really, wth, right? We have hugged new wet babies on kidding days, run around the yard in bare feet in goat feces which is sprinkled around the yard, etc etc etc. We arent dead yet. Still, knowing the possibilities on this disease and seeing it in action is plenty to give you inspiration to take it mighty seriously. Hopefully we dont have it here at all. But I have to know what it is, or at least what it ISNT, so I can go on milking and drinking like we do now. RAW. If we cant drink it raw, I just wont have goats. If I wanted pastuerized dead milk I would go buy cows milk from the grocery store. 

UPDATE: Her temp is 106.5. DH and I gave her 750 mls lactated ringers SQ. I gave her another afternoon dose of thiamine, biomycin, penicillin G and a half cc banamine. 

Her condition hasnt improved one bit since her morning treatments. She has gotten worse. SHe wishes she could eat. I know she's hungry and it breaks my heart. SHe goes to her dish and wants to eat but her mouth wont work for her. She cant even open it. I cant tube her, I dont have a tube that will work. I wanted to put her down tonight because I cant stand animals suffering. DH said we should wait til morning after the fluids and if she doesnt improve he will do it tomorrow. After which I will collect a fecal sample and as much of her brain as I can fit in a jar.....

This part of goat ownership? NOT FUN *AT ALL****


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## peregrine

Half of that 750 was IV


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## Trysta

Do you have a lambar? If so: use 6 inches of one of those hoses and put it on a large (60cc) syringe and voila, you can 'tube' your doeling. Be careful, and make sure she can swallow. You can drench with electrolytes or milk with some nutri-drench (I know not everyone likes that stuff, but I have very good results with it when trying to get an animal back on feed and as an aid in dehydration).

The symptoms you describe could also be poisoning. I hope you can figure it out and fix her problem.


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## Trysta

Also: pasteurized milk is not 'dead' milk. I'm really starting to wonder why one would get so upset about pasteurizing milk for our children when a lot of us heat treat and pasteurize milk for our goat kids for CAE prevention. Are we protecting our goatlings better than our children? :/


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## peregrine

Thanks Trysta. I dam raise. I had my goats tested for everything under the sun before we decided to drink the milk so considered this whole deal safe. I wonder if dairy is something I need to be dealing with in my life.


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## peregrine

Shes still standing out there. I have decided to give it one more go and treat her again with all the antibiotics, dex, etc. Also we will be tube feeding her milk, about 18 oz to start her off. Part of her problem may be that she is just so weak from not eating. If I see any improvment I will keep going, otherwise we are going to euthanize her at the end of the day. Prayers please.....Thank you for your help everyone.....


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## NubianSoaps.com

I wouldn't tube milk unless she is still nursing mom, your better off soaking and making a slurry of the meat goat pellet she already is eating, adding cud to it works really well. Subq and IV fluids is all she needs since they don't drink water or fluids into their rumen.

By now if this was polio the thiamin given at a good dose, you would have seen vast improvement by now. Rabies should would be dead. If this was listerosis it would not just be one young doe in the herd. I think your dealing with Janie's original thought, head injury, which is just going to take alot of time and nursing to get her through it. Vicki


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## peregrine

Thanks Vicki -- Yes, no one else is sick. She has had 3 doses of 2.2 ml thiamine (200 mg/ml). She is still nursing mom so I figured milk would be good to give her. JUst for our first go I also gave have some pedialyte mixed with the milk, she ended up getting a quart. I didnt want to overwhelm her. I gave her more antibiotics and her fever was 104.5 this morning. Last night she was at 106.5 -- wouldnt that be infectious with a fever that high? 

Here are my thoughts on why/if this is listeriosis: we have had a drought here, and our pastures are really really trimmed short by the horses and all the babies we have here. We have never had to buy hay in the summer, so we werent dialed in on getting hay when we needed it. The goats and horses were eating basically really short grass and nothing else for about a week while we looked for hay. Short grass/swampy land = basically grazing dirt/roots and possibly listeria infected dirt? I have asked my husband for some time to fence the woods so the goats would have access to good browse. We have about an acre of leafy woods waiting for them and havent had time to fence it. I keep going back to that week or so, about 2 weeks ago, of them eating low trim grass and dirt. We have an open 2.5 acres for them and a huge purple martin colony and tons of wild birds everywhere. And chickens. And ducks. But they have eaten back all the browse and eating the swamp dirt which literally, all winter, is flooded, flooded, flooded. Its a drainage into the swamp. Its what I blamed Violet and Sparrow's abortions on. I moved them to the neighbors high dry ground and treated them with aureomycin during their pregnancies to get the babies here. After the abortions I treated them with mega doses of biomycin. Maybe if it is listeria it is just in our soils. I really hope its a head injury, but I have no idea how it could have happened. There's really nothing for her to injure herself on. I am not trying to argue just trying to think my way to the bottom of it. I love my goats and just want to keep on in what I considered bliss before this happened. 

I guess as long as she is still here I will keep trying. I still think she'll pass, but she doesn't seem to be suffering terribly. She has a feeling of wanting to survive, so until she gives up, I will keep up. 

How long should I keep up with the thiamine? Does she always need this even if its not polio in order to prevent polio, since her gut is slowed?

We plan to tube her milk 3 times a day, next time we will give her more. If she tolerates it and gets stronger and poops, I will give her a slurry of pellets mixed with milk. 

THANK YOU for all the help....I would love your thoughts on the thiamine and the close cropped grass and flooded pastures.

Alisa


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## peregrine

Thank you for the adding cud idea! I will try to go catch one  I did give her a teaspoon of probios mixed with her milk.


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## NubianSoaps.com

She does have an infection, in the lining of the brain. The point being is that kids don't get listerosis, if someone was going to get listerosis in your herd it would be the adults, and it is not a disease I have ever seen that wasn't herdwide, I read the whole brief in Goat Medicine to refresh my memory since it's been several years since I vetted a herd who got it twice in a row, we always blamed it on her using spent hay, now we know she had carrier does, because repopulating the herd with new herdmates and not using spent hay she still had pregnant does abort the next year with symptoms of listerosis and the loss of a handful of does. Yes this could be listerosis but it doesn't fit anything that Goat Medicine says either, except symptoms that mirror many other neuro viral and bacterial disease and injury. 

Perhaps test another adult doe on your place, she is likely the carrier and not Violet or Sparrow, the doe who did not abort and had live kids is likely the carrier. But just having Violet and Sparrow abort and not get severly ill, and honestly at least one of them would have died if not both since you didn't know what you were treating, no way was that listerosis either. Once aborting each year, the herd lost the majority of the does.

You don't have to have goats long before you realize that kids are just an accident away from killing themselves. It's suprising we don't see more broken bones than we do. One mom can bash another moms kid and kill her, doelings have been laid on and found dead in the trailer during unloading at a show....

You have to keep up the thiamin until she is chewing cud, B1 is only made in a healthy working rumen. Keeping the temp down with the banamine and using the Dex to keep down the swelling...if she makes it make sure and step down the dex, using it at half dosages for as long as you kept it at full doseages.

I would just not put the abortions together with what is going on with this doe. There is no way you fixed your does with tetracycline who had listerosis...the does likely had a STD they caught from whomever the buck bred first and I hope you treated him also.

If you are going to put this doeling down, take her live to be put down at a teaching univeristy in your area, so they can test her...rarely is anything we freeze and send in for necropsy good enough samples to get much of anything back on, and if you send the brain, they really wanted to look at her head also. Plus they can look at the inside of her scull see if there is lesions, abscess or burn marks from disbudding on the inside. The only necropsies I have had really work was when I sacrificed an animal at Texas A&M letting them test her, put her down, necropsy and had the results come back....otherwise it's nearly always inconclusive.


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## peregrine

Thanks Vicki. I would like to know what this doeling has, but I really hope she pulls thru, in which case our options for a definitive diagnosis will be limited, so far as I can tell (without the brain to submit for testing). 

What I am really concerned about is more knowing for sure if, or if not, my does are carriers for this. 

If the doeling dies, I will send her tissues off as you said, maybe even drive her 2.5 hrs to the nearest teaching hospital (alive) so they can do as you described in order to obtain samples. 

However, I really need to know what I need to do, or what I need to tell my vet, or how to collect the appropiate samples, and send off to which lab for what kind of test so I can determine is listeria is being shed into my does milk. I really HAVE got to know this, for my own peace of mind and in knowing how to deal with this. 

I thank you so much for your advice, for re-reading Goat Medicine in order to help me, and for spending the time to type out your replies. 

UPDATE: She is trying to drink, but unsuccessfully. Still alive enough to care about survival at least....We will tube her some more milk and give her some SQ fluids.

Alisa


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## peregrine

:-( I only have two does and they both aborted. They were never sick themselves. One aborted about 2 mos in, and the other about 3.5 months along. I know the herd they came from and no losses or abortions happen there either, which is why I wonder if its something that I have on my property. Its all just PERPLEXING. So maybe it is just random. But feeding my family/children this milk, and knowing that this doeling exhibits what seem to be classic listeria symptoms, I just have to find out if my does are carriers....just to stop my brain from turning, obsessing and worrying. I can deal with a fluke, a random unexplained event, I can understand that biology works that way. But I do need an answer on that one thing: is my milk supply tainted and potentially dangerous. Surely there must be a way to find this out.

With gratitude, 
Alisa


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## peregrine

More...still more....

So now, she is in the same condition, she cannot swallow. We tubed her a qt and a half of milk and I gave her a small amount SQ fluids til we can get more later. She only got 250 ringers, she needs an IV, full bag, no doubt.

WHile we were tubing her, she got upset by the process and peed. Her pee was a rusty brown color, possibly slightly marroonish. I couldnt really investigate as I was restraining her while my husband tubed her. Is this dehydration or have we destroyed her kidneys with massive amounts of antibiotics, or both....

She doesnt appear jaundiced anywhere, if that matters?

Last night when we IVed her with ringers we couldnt find a good vein. My husband does this frequently on canines, and I used to, but havent in a good long while. We went for the jugular, but it was not easy because of venal pressure I guess. We looked along her legs for another option, couldnt find one. I would like to bring her in the house and just give her a slow drip on a liter of ringers, but I donthave high hopes for finding a vein. ANy help with this? I think she would benefit more this way. I think her body needs the IV rather than 8 needle sticks to give her the same amount SQ....

Sad....


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## NubianSoaps.com

If you just make a good handful sized lump of ringer up high right under the shoulder, she will absorb it, when nearly absorbed (and make sure it is not just pooling under her belly) make another lump on the other side. I use the butterfly attached to my bag, holding it up high and simply letting it gravity feed, they honestly don't even feel it, it was what gave us the idea to use the butterfly blood pulling technique on the ear.

Rust or dark urine is usually muscle break down, liver, kidney shutting down or blood. Vicki


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## peregrine

If she has listeria, does she need to be destroyed. Can she recover and be considered normal, or is she a liability.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Yes goats can recover from listeria, and all goats are not carriers. Vicki


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## peregrine

Well, I was laying in bed this morning thinking I was going to get up and get ready to drive her to the vet school 2.5 hrs away and put her down, necropsy and find out what this is. I go check on her, put the water in front of her, she wiggled her lower lip and I watched her actually drink. I saw the water go down her throat. She could not do this yesterday or Saturday. She could not wiggle her lip, and her tongue hung out and she would put her mouth in the water and wish to drink, but she could not suck the water in or make it go down. Her tongue was not functioning for that action. This morning, she is drinking. Still has a crooked ear, still can't blink on the bad side, but she can wiggle her freaking lip and swallow. SO....I guess she has her mind on recovery. I thought I'd be home all day obsessing over her. DH and I are gonna load her up on meds, give her a slurry of milk and alfalfa pellets and take the kids to the zoo.....

I feel hopeful....but guarded....and still very confused!!

Alisa


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## NubianSoaps.com

Well from FaceBook to my PM box here and emails...not a one of my breeder friends with goats as long or longer than me thinks your kid has listerosis either  Not sure if that will ease your mind...concensus is agreed, she is not the right age, she would be dead and you would have more does down.

So glad she is doing better, she will still need supportive meds etc, for awhile.

Also I read back through your posts to see if I could find anything, I do think it's an accident from your Feb post about your doe being aggressive with the other mom and kids...any chance at all someone is in heat that brought on this head butting? You would think it is fall here with does in heat and bucks in rut!

Let us know how she is progressing, I am moving this to the main forum...maybe you will get more in that section than me  V


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## KJFarm

Alisa, glad to hear of the slight improvement. I've not commented since the first of the post. But, I still really think that this doe is suffering from severe head trauma. The sagging ear, lip, tongue problem should diminish with time. I had a doe with this several years back, and it took her about 6 weeks to be completely normal. I would put her on Fortified B-Complex daily to keep that rumen going, since she is not eating much. It will also help stimulate her appetite.


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## skeeter

Just a thought...with the temp, dark urine, and the meningitis like symptoms, even the adults aborting. Could this be Leptospirosis? Do you have rodents or squirrels where they are eating?


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## peregrine

Well, she passed. Sadly, even with the improvement this morning. We tubed her some milk and alfalfa, dosed her up with meds, and left for the day. She was very wobbly and weak after we worked on her this morning, shaky almost, despite the strides she had made in her swallowing. He temp had gone to 101 from 102.2 the day before and I was suspecting she was shutting down. As I was walking away I told myself I was sure she would probably be dead when we returned. We had 3 little kids beggging us to leave to go to the zoo or I might have rather stayed with her. While we were gone it rained massively. Very shortly before we arrived home. And I immediately checked on her, and found her at the base of a tree, soaked. I feel certain after my view of her this morning that she probably would have passed on her own, but I cant help kicking myself and feeling horrible that she had to die alone in a rainstorm. I would have preferred to put her down. I had a sixth sense about this from the beginning, and should have just listened to it. Now I have haunted sad feelings about her cold and lonely end. She had died shortly before we arrived home, and my husband saved her head, on ice, and refrigerated. He also pulled liquid blood from her heart, and saved a fecal sample. I will drive all this to the vet tomorrow in hopes of finding some answers. 

As to a possible head trauma, I wish it were so, but in reviewing her history of the last month of so, I have to say that there were times I wondered about her. Not because she did anything glaringly obvious that would have stood out and stopped me in my tracks, but subtle signs that in retrospect, I was missing. Mainly, although she was in good weight, she was not at the same growth rate as her huge sister. She seemed to go from a very affectionate doeling, to one that was just not as lovey. He personality had changed. And when dealing with a growing doeling, whose to decide that is a medical issue. She had no hanging ear or drool until Saturday. Next time this happens I am going to trust my judgment and just end it quickly. But I see the signs of desire for life and I let it go on. It is so sad. I swear of all the animals that have died, that I have personally euthanized, my dogs, horse, chickens, other goats that we have eaten. I dont know why this one little doeling has me so emotional. We werent even going to keep her. We were going to find her a nice home and send her on her way......

Thanks for listening.

Alisa


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## peregrine

I didnt know lepto could cause this. YEs we have rodents around. Nothing major and not where they are eating. I dont see any evidence of rodents getting into the feed, but cant be certain. I see mice around every now and then under the feed shed. No squirrels. 

Thank you Vicki for helping with all your advice and asking friends/facebook, etc. I sure hope you all are right and I am glad to hear your ideas about this. I keep wondering about rabies, and of course my mind wanders down that road and it scares me. Chris and I have been wearing gloves, but before I thought about it, I didn't. I am going to have her brain tested for that as well. I will let you all know what we find out.

I still need to find out is there any way to find out if we have a carrier animal here. I am still not clear on whether there is a test or not. I wish I could just let it ride and not worry, take our good health and 3 years drinking it as a sign we are safe, but all things considered, I can't do it. This disease, or whatever it was, was horrific. If it is something that can be passed to humans, its beyond scary.....


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## sarafina

I am so sorry for your loss Alisa. Your doeling passed knowing you were doing everything you could for her and she was loved, even if the end was sad.


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## KJFarm

I, too, am very sorry that it ended this way. Don't beat yourself up, these things happen when raising livestock, and sometimes we never get the answers we search for.


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## MF-Alpines

So sorry, Alisa.


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## buckrun

Heroic attempt Alisa-you really did keep on top of this and sorry you lost her. If you are worried about carriers it is possible to plate out milk samples for listeria. Ask your vet if he knows a lab that does this. 
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com

Like Lee said simply google.com tests for listeria, then find a local lab you can send the blood or milk or fecal material in, who runs those specific tests. I would do the same for the necropsy material, it does not good to send it to the local lab your vet uses if the specific tests aren't ran. I don't have time to write it out.


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## peregrine

Thanks everyone. When we got home last night DH saved her head on ice, pulled blood from her heart and withdrew a fecal sample. I told the vet this morning that we could plate the fecal for listeria and he submitted the fecal, blood, inner ear swabs, and her brain and brain stem for pathology. We are testing for listeriosis, rabies, inner ear infection, CAE (even though her dam is neg??...anyway....). Gross necropsy appeared normal. He commented on how good she looked, condition wise. 50 lbs at 4 mos old, lots of fat. Phffffft!!! At least this is in our past. Thats a relief at least. I keep looking at my others hoping they stay healthy. So far so good. I'll let yall know what we found out from the lab. NCSU and state health dept. And thanks for the info on the listeria testing carrier via the milk. Gonna proceed on that after we hear results from this doeling.....if we can at least rule listeria out, I will feel a lot better.


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## freedomfrom4

I hate when they get sick. I hope you figure it out so ya can head it off from happening again.


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## peregrine

Well, the histopathology report on the brain came back with "lesions consistent with Listeriosis." So, next, they are doing a plate growth to see if they can find listeria to comfirm the histopathology. If they find nothing on plating the diagnosis will still be considered Listeriosis.....

I am in contact with a lab in NC to check on the possibility of my does being carriers, of this bacteria being shed in the milk.

Part of me wants to just throw my hands up and start drinking almond milk....


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## NubianSoaps.com

Alisa did you ask the lab speicfically if they run the testings that was on the google search and in Goat Medicine for testing for listeria in goats? Vicki


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## NorthOf49

Wow Alisa: I'm so sorry. That's an awful story; my eyes teared up when she passed. I know it's been a while now, I missed the original thread. I hope it's not listeria for you....!


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## peregrine

Thanks Vicki, I will call them tomorrow to ask. My vet has been in contact with the lab. I was there for the necropsy and when they sent the blood, fecal and brain off for testing last week. I heard from the vet today with the preliminary results from the brain pathology. I dont have Goat Medicine here, but I will try to get the specifics off google to find out if they have done the correct testing. Thank you...


Thank you Christine...


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## peregrine

I can't get the google Goat Medicine pages to load because I have been cut by my satellite internet provider down to dialup speeds, not to mention the cloud cover over here today--Vicki, if you could help me out with this and tell me what test I need to ask for specifically--and a page # in Goat Medicine--I will call the lab tomorrow with this info and reference. I would really appreciate this! Thank you!


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## peregrine

I got only a few pages of Goat Medicine up, they didnt allow the full section on Listeriosis to load--I couldn't get the test info at all.... :-(


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## nitrospeed16

Alisa
So sorry for your loss. I had a yearling saanen who died this year of listeriosis (MDA necropsy confirmed it). I know you're going through a rough time, especially since the disease seems to strike overnight (my doe was bright, alert & responsive the day before she became ill, and ended up passing away the next evening). My condolences.


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## LamanchaLover

Awwww!!! I`m so sorry that she passed. :down I hope it`s not listeriosis, and that it`s just a fluke!
Hope everything turns right in the end. :/


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