# Inducing Labor



## Guest (Feb 20, 2008)

I have a doe that was due 2/17. I'd like to induce her but I have never done it before. I can get 2cc of lute from the vet. I have on hand Pre-Def (like Dex?) and Oxytocin. How should I go about doing this?

Thanks,
Christy


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2008)

2cc of Lute & 5cc of Dex. Expect labor 29-36 hours later. Since she is overdue, be prepared for the babies to arrive earlier.

Sara


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Sara,
You ever used the Pre-def 2x instead of Dex?
I don't know that I used the Pre-Def instead of Dex. I know we were always very cautious with it's use over Dex.

Don't use oxytocin until she has kidded out.
Kaye


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2008)

No Kaye, I haven't used Pre-def. I plan to stick with Dex. I figure if it ain't broke... 

Sara


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:biggrin Just what I thought! I read the lables and blah,blah,blah....I don't think you really want to use this drug the same as Dexamethasone. We used it a lot for external topicals and for cow deliveries where the calf had been stuck for a couple days! Really think you're putting your doe at risk.
You're going to vet for Lute...just ask for 5cc of 2mg/ml Dexamethasone.?
Kaye


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2008)

Okay, I'm getting both the DEX and the lute from the vet. Hr said that the Pre-Def won't work as well as the DEX for inducing, said that is his choice if a steroid is needed and you want to try to keep the pregnancy. 

Thanks guys!
Christy


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Actually, we use the Dex to develop the lungs on the kids, as much as helping the doe with inducing labor. 
That's what the Lute does.
Kaye


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2008)

And also Kaye, I have found the timing of the delivery to be much more reliable when using Dex in conjunction with the Lute. Have you noticed this as well?

Sara


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:biggrin Yes...instead of it being all over the board! The does seem to come around faster and get with the program rather than draggin' out the sympathy whine for a few days. :lol
Kaye


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I've been told that when you allow your doe to go through the natural process of labor in her time, the kids' lungs develop properly. When you induce, the lungs may not be ready. So, I see folks on this board giving dex along with lute to help both the kids and the doe in this process. Ok, so this sounds fine if there is something going on with the doe that it is in her best interest to get those kids out of there. A vet luted a friend's doe who was down with what appeared to be meningeal worm. She was trying to help the doe and the kids were viable. What I'm wondering is why so many of you, with tested CAE negative herds induce your does. It just seems to me that it would be harder on the goats. No one I know around here does it.
Kathie


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2008)

Kathie,

I am getting really tired of this type of attitude. You come on this forum talking about "my friend", "my goat mentor", etc. Do YOU have any practical experience with goats? Have YOU induced your does?

I don't need to explain the reason why I induce my does, but I will. I work 50+ hours a week and I refuse to let my does labor on their own and I find it necessary to be there when my does freshen. I freshen all of them on the weekends and have done so for over 10 years. With no ill effects I might add. I keep very accurate breeding records so I know EXACTLY when it is safe to induce.

Until you have experience with inducing (or anything else your "friends" tell you about), your opinion just doesn't hold water with me. In my opinion of course.

Sara


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2008)

Ok, so this sounds fine if there is something going on with the doe that it is in her best interest to get those kids out of there. 

Something is going on with her when she is due, and it is in her best interest for someone to be there for the birth like in Sara's situation. Something is going on with her when she is overdue and it is in her best interest to give birth before the kids become so big she could have a difficult or potentially dangerous birth, like my situation.

I guess I just don't get where you're coming from.

Christy


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Sara
I wasn't trying to argue with you. I can understand why you would want to do it being that you have a full time job. I guess I've been lucky in that I have my hubby home to kid out the does while I'm at work. I also take off work a week if I have alot of does due during one period of time. I know everyone may not be able to do that. I have been breeding goats for 7 years now and have experience in delivering, but have never induced. Prior to even knowing about this board, I'd considered inducing one of my does and was advised against it for the reason stated above. We are all entitled to do what fits for us and I don't condemn you. I totally understand that someone who knows goats needs to be there when they freshen. I am just trying to learn about different methods of goat management. I'm pretty sure I'd consider inducing if a goat were overdue or I had some kind of emergency where I'd have to be away from home. Any new medical prodedure with a goat is just a bit scary to me. I actually have been thinking about inducing Chelsea. She is a Nubian coming second freshener who prolapsed last year after she kidded and I'd really like for her to kid this year when the vet's office will be open. Ideally, I wish these higher risk does would be able to deliver in the hospital. The thing is, I wouldn't want to risk that the meds would increase her chances of a prolapse this year. None of the goat people I know have ever had a uterine prolapse in their goats and I haven't read about one on these forums either. Vicki suggested I breed her on her first heat last fall and I did that. Now, I'm just scared she may have a problem again this year. She's due March 13. As for my goat mentor, I used to work for her when she ran a commercial dairy and much of what I've learned from her has been in working alongside her with the goats. It has been just so much easier learning to pull kids, give shots and disbud actually seeing it done rather than just reading about it on this forum. Christy, I can understand you inducing an overdue goat.
Kathie


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

When do you give lute/dex? (Like what day in the pregnacy) 145days? slightly before or after?

Never induced before and just trying to learn all about it.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I for one would have no one that could take over and help one of my does. my DH can help me but only if I am here. So being here at birthing times is a must for me. I don't leave does to do their own thing ever. So using dex/lute and knowing for certain the conception date is just a given. Plus I have these wonderful mentors in Sara/Kaye and Vicki who have used this procedure for years and trust I trust them. In fact I wouldn't have goats today if it were for those three saving my butt when I first began.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2008)

I also work many hours weekly, and same reason as Sara induce my does so that I can be there.. I do not want to come home to dead babies, frozen here in the north, or trainwrecks with dead kids and a dead doe.. 
I have never used Dex before and this will be my first year using it in conjunction with the lute.. I also have never had a bad experience in inducing does and have been doing this for about five years now.. Many of us cannot afford to lose the does or kids, this is our income to feed the following year and keep the goats..
Interesting story.. I sold a buck to my vet (old vet that was a fool) one year, she bred her doe.. She called me in the middle of January to tell me that the triplet doe babies had been born in the middle of the night and died due to hypothermia.. This out of a VET, for petes sake.. and she knew her doe was in labor and went to bed.. 
I will not sell her an animal again.. ever.. She had the drugs and the means to induce labor, get her does kids on the ground and still get her sleep.. there just is no excuse for that.. NOt in my opinion ... 
Barbara


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

I've had 15 yrs. experience with lute before using the Dex and 6 yrs of Dex with the lute and to date one problem. I also believe that this one problem was NOT due to the lute and Dex...rather my stupidity of NOT using it sooner!! The Obie doe with the torn uterus, due to an EXTRA LARGE buck kid, could have been avoided IF I had induced her as planned 4 days earlier. BUT, I let my DH talk me into waiting longer! :mad That's exactly what I get for not using the knowledge that I have and letting someone else with less experience convince me otherwise! No use re-hashing this...but from now on, when I KNOW that doe WILL have problems I'll use my own judgement.

I don't have an outside job to use as my reason.....my does health, live kids, live doe, and I absolutely refuse to call ANY of the vets around here to do a c-section. I'll friggin' do it myself...afterall, it SURE wouldn't be the first one and wouldn't be the last! Every blasted one of them that will do a c-section DOESN'T have a gas machine and insists on using Zylazine & Ketamine! BAD CHOICE, in my opinion.
I *jokingly* use the excuse that I won't loose sleep...but I also will not let one doe kid here that I am not in attendance of the kidding! I sell kids that I ASSURE the buyers has been raised on heat-treated colostrum/pasturized milk...and if that doe kids with me NOT right there to catch it, would be DESTROYED because, I wouldn't feel I was being honest with the buyers! I put a lot of stock in my word and am down right anal about telling the truth! Wives tales and incorrect information I have absolutely no use for...I'm trained in modern medicine and If I DON'T know, I have no problems calling an institution that has done the research or someone (qualified) with a LOT more experience on the subject than I might have! 

Someone else kidding out my does????? It DON'T HAPPEN here! IF I WERE DEAD...maybe. Does kidding are TOP PRIORITY here over EVERYTHING ELSE. Something important happening, the doe is induced so I can be here. Anal? probably in some person's view... not mine! 
Kaye


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I know for myself that sometimes on the forum you do feel that you aren't being asked a question you are being questioned. And my first reaction to the post was......

Like Sara would do anything to cause harm to her goats that are 1st at nationals, or Grand Champion Junior Lamancha at nationals or top ten on DHIR or first in milk, or geeze even selling for the price she gets  or or or....

I mean really if this was in anyway harmful to our goats or their kids do you think we would do it to them, or worse...give this information to all of you to make you not succeed? And if you feel this way you shouldn't be on this forum.

Your going to read what we consider crap on the internet. We don't sit here and write what we read in a book, we write what happens or has happened to us personally for all of you to learn from. It's why we have such an eclectic group of folks for all of you to choose who to listen to. I mean really...when 3 people on this forum are folks who I call when I am in a pinch, Kaye, Tim and Sara...that's a pretty darn good board to listen to.

So back to it now....I also luted routinely, pre dex Barb. Vicki


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

:biggrin And you experienced breeders are so nice and answer our questions, over, and over, and over, and over again. Cause us that don't know all this stuff...well we can sometimes be kinda brain dead. It doesn't always sink in or that little light bulb doesn't always come on :yeahthat

Thank you so much for telling us again....and again....and again....


We really do appreciate it...at least I do.

Sheryl


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## Heavenly Angels (Nov 1, 2007)

what day is considered OVER DUE??


Mary Lou


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## Karen Bailey (Oct 26, 2007)

Kaye White said:


> Someone else kidding out my does????? It DON'T HAPPEN here! IF I WERE DEAD...maybe. Does kidding are TOP PRIORITY here over EVERYTHING ELSE. Something important happening, the doe is induced so I can be here. Anal? probably in some person's view... not mine!


I've never tried inducing, but I feel the same way about being here for every birth. People just don't understand why I won't go anywhere when my does are close to kidding. I get some strange looks when I say " I'm sorry, but it's kidding time, so I won't be able to (fill in the blank)" If I do go shopping, I usually have somebody stay and watch for me and check in every 15 to 20 minutes by cell phone, and I won't go more than 15 minutes drive away. Better yet to send someone else out with my shopping list. I'd rather be laughed at because I spent 2 weeks at home with the does holding out on me then to miss a kidding.

If you are there and watch the kidding progress from the first signs, you have a distinct sense of whether everything is right or not. When you feel that sense of not right, usually prompt intervention either puts things right, or you know you've got a serious problem and can get help before the doe is too distressed.


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

While I use the "Karen Bailey" method for "managing" labor , I'd like to know more about inducing.

Sara, when you're planning for weekend deliveries, when do you administer the Lutalyse? Friday AM? And to does beyond what day? 143?

I'd need to take Monday off... I can manage two births at once, but that's about it!

Also, a question for Vicki -- you mentioned in a recent post about delivering *into* feedbags. Rather than the "onto" method. I see the logic, but I've only recently gotten the visual. Do you cut the bags down a bit to make them shallower?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I cut a feed bag down the middle and then across the bottom, (not to the very bottom but to maybe 3/4 of the way down) into a T..so the sides of the feedbag are flaps. I make as many of these as I have does kidding and a few in my birthing bucket I take to emergencies.

When done, it's easy to roll everything up and it fits into the bottom of the bag you still have left. Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> what day is considered OVER DUE??


There's actually not an over due date. The doe will kid in her own good time. Now, if you know your does well enough, she will tell you if there's a problem. Sick?...yep, ketosis, dead kids, in labor and malpresentation and I even watch for normally social does to become anti-social. Somethings going on and I find out what. This time of year...does should be watched constantly for any off signs. Not, I WANT kids now, but the actual does health. LOL...DH hates to drive anywhere with me this time of year...I'm a pasture watcher... Can tell if someone else's stock is sick or calving or has a new calf...just by a glance!

Tricia...not Sara, and I hope she will post. I use the 143-144 days from due date (150) as the earliest I will induce-unless the doe is sick. I give the shots on Fri. am at about 6-7 am and I expect kids from 11-3 on Sat. By about 10am they are getting real serious about kidding. Nesting, digging holes, contractions, mucous strings and mild pushes.

Karen, my family has learned over the years that during kidding season...Sat. Sun. are not a good time to plan get togethers, if they want me there. Dad (livestock man) understands...Mom- she's getting over it!  They've accepted the fact...that I just won't budge. I really wanted to go on the ski trip to Pogosa Springs,Colo...but it was within the Obie's 10 day window before I got back. Passed! 
I've even been known to call hubby at work to pick up toilet paper!! Now, that's pretty bad...but (oh,I ain't going there)...it gets picked up!
Kaye


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

Tricia,

I induce my does exactly as Kaye describes. The only difference is that I give the Lute and Dex at 1AM Friday morning (late Thursday night depending on how you look at it!) and expect delivery on Saturday morning.

Sara


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## D Bar J Acres (Nov 5, 2007)

Okay, I know how to use Lute and have for aborting before - nigies need the same 2cc dose as the big girls, BUT what about the Dex? Would that be 5cc for a nigie as well? And how do you give the dex? IM or SQ and do you do them both at the same time? I'm back to working M-Th and work 20 miles from home, would kinda like to try this. Thanks! Jenny


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Jenny, I'll have the dose for pygmys when my sister gets home. I'm assuming the pygmys dose would be the same as a nigi since they are the same size for the most part. My vet said they'd already be in the syringes ready to give, he didn't give me the dose over the phone.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

Called my vet today and he said the dex for Nigerians is 2 ccs... 
Barbara
give it IM


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

My vet gave me 3cc for a pygmy. I figured if they werent the same they'd be close.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Barbara wrote:


> Called my vet today and he said the dex for Nigerians is 2 ccs...


That's about what I was *thinking*, but since I didn't have dose I wasn't about to give one. 
Good job Barbara...now the *little girls* have a dose.
Kaye


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

2 cc of Dex. for Nigerians is what I have in my notes. I've never raised Nigerians, but have the information for others if needed.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Alright, I have the Lute, but Dex, if it is prescription I'll never be able to get for a goat lol! My vet told me three years ago, on a goat that was 7 days over she'll kid when she is ready wouldn't even look at her Or let me buy any lute. So I'm on my way out to go Lute two does, I have hired someone to run my booth tomorrow, and so I'll have Sat and Sunday, the third doe, I didn't actually SEE her bred so since she's Not appearing close at this time (when I checked her yesterday) I'm going to let her go and Hope all works out right with her, she's a ff, and May be due on the 23 or Maybe 3 weeks later? she spent 3 weeks in with the buck I put her in when she came into heat. I'll have to be Bitchy about it and MAKE the kids watch her when I'm on Bus route or at the booth. the other 2 I know for sure the dates and the Two bigger Saanens I know for sure are due on the following weekend, so I'll lute them next Sat. I don't do this unless Neccesary for Years I was a stay at home mom, now I'm a Over scheduled mom with too many jobs.


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

I gave Lute and Dex to 2 this morning. They are due today and tomorrow according to MY calendar so I want it over with this weekend. Got a busy week next week and won't have time for does playing games with my mind. :lol


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

I can double that Chris... I induced 4 does at 1:00AM this morning. :crazy

Needless to say, I won't be on the forum much tomorrow!

Best of luck with your kiddings.

Sara


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

:lol Oh My Goodness!! Yep, we'll see you Sunday! Good luck with your girls. :biggrin


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

Ok this is what i have gotten I have two Lamancha does due 2/27 and 2/29 when is it safe to LUte them I have big tests next week and don't have time to play with these girls.

Thanks
Autumn


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

wow everyone decided to have their goats have babies. LOL. I gave the lute/dex to Nica this morning to.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:biggrin Well....I only did one! A Saanen doe, I'm desperately needing the milk from! Besides, she's due Monday and I got plans!! :lol

I'm getting dang tired of milking that jersey and pasturizing the milk! :really But, BOY are these Obie babies growing! 
Kaye


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> now I'm a Over scheduled mom with too many jobs.


I understand! I am working full-time this year- a 2-2.5 hour total commute time. Needless to say, I am afraid that if they don't all kid between 430pm and midnight, they will be in Ben & Rebah's hands. Ben is asking for his own coffee pot :lol

I know that I have great and very responsible kids, but they don't have a lot of gut instinct yet, or that "Something is Happening in the Barn- RUN" feeling :lol


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Plus that is alot of pressure to put on children IMO yes they can do it but if something goes wrong they feel the brunt of it.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh my That is how much commute time I have (had) on thurs - Sat, now its Only Sat, since I couldn't get over there without a car, but I'm now driving school bus 5 days a week. for 3 + hours a day, and trying to cram in making soaps and lotions and milking, wrapping


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Sometimes I whine about my DH, but after following this thread, I'm so grateful. He has as much experience as I do in delivering baby goats. I check my goats frequently when they are due to kid and can usually tell when someone is going to kid within the next few hours. If I have to leave for work, he gets the list of who to expect and keep a close eye on. Of course, if I have a bunch due in a short period of time, I stay home from work. I've already put in my request for time off in March when I have 7 does due on the 12 and 13. There's no way I'd try and induce that many goats to kid at the same time. For me, that would be :crazy They may still decide to kid in a big group, but usually they stagger their labors so I have time to deal with each doe more calmly.
Good luck to all of you having babies this weekend. I'm excited to hear all about it.
Kathie


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> Plus that is alot of pressure to put on children IMO yes they can do it but if something goes wrong they feel the brunt of it.


 :down I know, but I have no other option at this point. I am actually going to buy a cell phone next week so they can call me at work in an emergency. I have a great vet that is experienced with and loves goats (and my children, lol). They know they can call him if they need to. The goat people in my town with more years experience than we have have pulled fewer kids than we have...one called _me_ for advice last week, lol. Thanks to Vicki I told them 'lube up and go in' 

They also have Miss Vicki's, Kaye's, and Sandy R.'s phone numbers posted next to the phone :biggrin We are just praying they all kid when I am home...


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I didn't mean that the way I am sure it sounded Hey get a tracfone or a pay as you go they are wonderful and no monthly bills.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Hey- I didn't take it wrong, Sondra! I totally agree with you, things just don't always work the way we want...

I looked at trac phones today- omg, when did there get to be so many choices :? I'll have to have Ben pick one out for me, lol.


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