# Grain by-products



## Lunacy Acres (Feb 2, 2010)

What exactly are "grain byproducts"? Or even "grain products"?

I saw it referred to briefly in another post, but would like more info. I'm one of those overwhelmed newbies, focusing on food this week. I'm feeding a byproduct feed, unfortunately, and even though Vicki helped me figure out the perfect homemade feed, I can't afford that right now. So while I'm seeing what's available in commercial feeds and compromises, I'd like to learn a little more about what my girls are getting now. The odd thing is, they have gained weight and height since they've been here, maybe because the hay is good even if the so-called grain is junk (it comes in a real pretty bag, though!).


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

I can't help on the Grain by products but in my opinion good hay is always best. I try to minimize grain and spend my money on highest quality hay instead but I am interested in the homemade grain mix recipe - can you share it?


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## Lunacy Acres (Feb 2, 2010)

The recipe I was looking at was based on what I told Vicki was available around here. She may have more to say about it! But it was 1/3 whole oats, 1/6 corn (flaked if not dusty, or chopped), 1/6 beet pulp, 1/3 calf manna. Black oil sunflower seeds instead of or in addition to the corn would make it wonderful. I may still go this route, but am a little worried about storing so much at a time in our humidity (and in a place where cockroaches grow to the size of small goats) when I'm only feeding two goats. And might have to go with something cheaper than calf manna to make it work.

It does sound so much nicer than "grain byproducts, grain products, forage products......", though, doesn't it?


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Grain byproducts are basically things that are produced from the production of something else... floor sweepings . It can be basically any leftovers from any kind of grain, and it can change from batch to batch. Depends on what they can get and what's cheapest, and what fills up the measure of the percentages on the back of the bag.


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

Lunacy Acres said:


> (and in a place where cockroaches grow to the size of small goats)


 When I was 16 I went to Girls Scout National Convention in Maimi Florida. Was staqying at a middle of the line Hotel on the beach. There was this HUGE HUGE bug so my roommate and I called our chaperone and she ended up calling the frontdesk, now mind you we had all been on survival hikes for days at a time but thay thing was SCARY BIG!! So they sent maintence to the room and he picked the roach up and said no biggie is was a baby. I have a roach phobia over that bug and can still see it in my mind 20 years later!!!


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## danielsumner (Jul 21, 2009)

[/quote] So they sent maintence to the room and he picked the roach up and said no biggie is was a baby. I have a roach phobia over that bug and can still see it in my mind 20 years later!!!
[/quote]

Oh, you met one of our Palmetto Bugs. Sometimes they are so big that you have to look for a tail to make sure it's not a squirrel before you stomp them.

Daniel


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Oh, you guys! Palmetto bugs are totally gaggo!
But seriously I have no trouble storing my homemade grain mix in a heavy duty plastic trash can with a lid. It doesn't go bad or get bugs and we are hot and humid and crawling with all kinds of bugs. A 33 gallon can hold about 3 - 50lb sacks. Get two cans and you can make up the right proportions easily. As for cost, pelleted goat feed is about the same as grain. 
Honestly, though, I used to feed Purina sheep and goat pellets and actually had good results also. My goats were in good condition and had easy births. Even had a set of quintuplets while feeding this but they also had alfalfa hay. I just quit feeding it because it usually had ethoxyquin and lard in it.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Using whole grains plus calf manna should not be more expensive than a by-product pellet. But, if you want to use a pellet, use a good quality dairy goat pellet such as ADM, Bartlett, or Blue Seal Dairy. (these are what I can get around here, you might have other brands near you). Stay away from sweet feeds or all-stock type stuff. I've fed both home-mixed and pelleted feeds and like both. Good hay is important too, but if you want lots of milk and good weight on your does you will most likely have to feed lots of grain/alfalfa.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

In my area whole grains and such are wicked expensive. My grain bill for the goats went way up when I switched from the commercial feeds to a home made one. We don't have any kind of mills around here, and very few farms grow grains, and if they do, its just a by-product of the potato farms so its mostly oats.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I feed my does goat lactation pellets with grain products and forage products on the label which I mix with dry COB and BOSS. They've always done well on it. What I wouldn't want to do is substitute a heavily molassed all stock feed for what I give them.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

So they take high quality grains and minerals like that in Calf Manna, put them into a hopper, grind them into a slurry, extrude them into a pellet, dry them in a dryer, pay labor, sack them...and then out of the kindness of their heart sell them for less than what they do grain they sack and sell??? People! Common!  Real grain may have been in the same room as this byproducts trash at one point, but it certainly has no grain in it  Vicki


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## Lunacy Acres (Feb 2, 2010)

Sigh, back to the feed store I go......

I think there's a certain comfort in seeing those guaranteed percentages on the back of the bag (the pretty bag, did I mention that?), that makes one want to overlook the ingredients.

Anyone ever feed flax seed instead of BOSS? It's about half the price here.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Not totally positive but I think some people use flax instead.
I like the pretty bags too I saw some Standlee brand alf pellets the other day and their bag was so professional-looking I bought some. But it really wasn't better than the Red River brand I usually get and way more expensive. I hope you are able to find some good grain for your goats.
It blows my mind that pellets are more money than grain.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

You can use flax seed instead of sunflower seeds. I use rice bran pellets, as they are cheaper here, as long as I don't get the ones bagged for horses ($10 per $50 for the regular, $30 per 50 for the horse ones.)

Here real grain runs about twice as much as by-product stuff, 50 lbs of oats or barley is about $17-20.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Aja-Sammati said:


> You can use flax seed instead of sunflower seeds. I use rice bran pellets, as they are cheaper here, as long as I don't get the ones bagged for horses ($10 per $50 for the regular, $30 per 50 for the horse ones.)
> 
> Here real grain runs about twice as much as by-product stuff, 50 lbs of oats or barley is about $17-20.


 :jawdrop

Oats are like $7 a bag here. BOSS is like 12.00 now. It was up to 25 a while back.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

:jawdrop is right!
I guess we are doing better than i thought on feed prices.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

whole oats here abt $8 50lb
steam rolled barley abt $8 50lb
BOSS $20 to $25 50lb
cracked corn ABt $7.65 50lb
dry beet pulp $ 9 40lb
I mix 100lb oat
100 lb barely
25lb cracked corn
25 lb Boss 
20 lb dry beet pulp 
Worked here for over 10 yrs
I mix in a 55 gal barrel and clamp on the lid now moisture/ no bugs.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

We are running much the same Sondra just a bit higher on beet pulp but alfalfa is where we really spend the $.
10 for 50 pounds of 17%. Can't do with out it so I just suck it up and pay. We are lucky our mill will mix a 600 pound batch.
That fits into 3 of the tall trash cans on wheels with the hinged lid at walmart -200 pounds each can.
Very much the best deal we have found.
Lee


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## Candy (Jun 4, 2009)

Sondra said:


> whole oats here abt $8 50lb
> steam rolled barley abt $8 50lb
> BOSS $20 to $25 50lb
> cracked corn ABt $7.65 50lb
> ...


I am still learning. So my question is how much protien is this? Or is that not really important? I read that a milking doe should get about 16% protien if she is getting alfalpha. 20 somthing% if not. What are your thoughts on this?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

How much protein is in the alfalfa Bernice. Saying that grain has to be 16% when alfalfa may be 20% or 17% guranteed minimums, could mean those alfalfa pellets are 20% maximum?? Your grain should compliment what you are using it for. Do you need to improve your hay with 20% protein? To make a 12% mix of oats and corn and barley 20% you would be getting pretty close to having half of it soybean meal....is that healthy? With good quality alfalfa hay, isn't that enough protein? vicki


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Just a quick aside, if you are making cheese from milk, be careful with total proteins. Yes, the girls need 17% and BOSS for good production, but the milk is very sensitive to feed when you go above 18% protein. The milk MUN numbers will be higher above 18%, especially if you have excellent browse. When MUN is high in milk, the milk may still taste rich, but the cheese will not come out well and have body and paste defects.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

You guys are LUCKY! Alfalfa pellets here are only 15 percent, and run $12 per 50lbs- now you know why I only feed alfalfa hay, not ever pellets  Now you also know why I expect my does to milk well on very little grain and very good hay, also.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Michelle that is a minimum of 15 percent, not a maximum. Bt yes I do purchase the 17%.

Thanks PAV, love your posts. Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

We have 17% alfalfa pellets for 7.55 here now! Also have alfalfa hay, 2-5th cuttings for 6.50 a bale.


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

Your a bratt Ashely  LOL!


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I feel like this is a competition! :lol We have dairy grade alfalfa, 115-130 lb bales for $8 a bale.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

> You guys are LUCKY! Alfalfa pellets here are only 15 percent, and run $12 per 50lbs- now you know why I only feed alfalfa hay, not ever pellets


With the incredible quality alfalfa hay that you have in California, why in the world would you feed anything else? Ours is great up here, but when I asked for 5th cutting alfalfa when we first moved here, the farmers all laughed at me!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

mamatomany said:


> Your a bratt Ashely  LOL!


LOL! It wasn't long ago I was paying $11.50 a bale for alfalfa hay (they were a big bigger though, but not by much) or $11-$13 a bag for alfalfa pellets!


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

linuxboy said:


> Just a quick aside, if you are making cheese from milk, be careful with total proteins. Yes, the girls need 17% and BOSS for good production, but the milk is very sensitive to feed when you go above 18% protein. The milk MUN numbers will be higher above 18%, especially if you have excellent browse. When MUN is high in milk, the milk may still taste rich, but the cheese will not come out well and have body and paste defects.


I am still trying to wrap my brain around this MUN stuff, so could you please explain in greater depth? If higher MUNs influence cheeses then do you know what the numbers are for higher MUN?

There are some herds comparing MUN numbers that have just completed a year's worth of testing. They are finding that the MUN levels in goats, without added proteins (SBM) or with, are still way higher than tests done on cows. 
It's been quite interesting to watch each month's test results and what they're able to do with their feeds in increasing and balancing butterfat/protein percentages, without pushing for production. I could see where this information could benefit those that produce cheese.

Just curious.

Camille
PS Do you make cheese with your Mini-Manchas milk?

...........................


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes I am interested in this also- more info Pav! 
Lee


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## Leo (Mar 10, 2008)

I miss good alfalfa, if I want anything of quality I go TN, buy a couple months worth at a time whenever I can. :sniffle You guys are making me jealous with all your high quality and cheap feed.



> Just a quick aside, if you are making cheese from milk, be careful with total proteins. Yes, the girls need 17% and BOSS for good production, but the milk is very sensitive to feed when you go above 18% protein. The milk MUN numbers will be higher above 18%, especially if you have excellent browse. When MUN is high in milk, the milk may still taste rich, but the cheese will not come out well and have body and paste defects.


That's cool.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Pav you have been such a great help to us especially with technicality's on cheese making 
I too raised MM and used their milk exclusively for years making cheese tho I certainly am not proficient in it.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Know what you mean, Sondra. My kinders make great cheese.


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

I guess you could say all this talk about grain by-products is just opinions. One person's opinion over another. I feed a bagged feed have for YEARS!!! and NEVER had an issue with it EVER!!!, my goats are in great shape, milk great (proven), win shows, do well on LA. So I don't see the issue with letting someone feed a bagged feed if that is what they want to do. Okay so some feed (all) grains let it be, some feed by-products let it be, to each their own I say. But I will say that I am not a nutrionist so I believe I will be feeding a feed that a NUTRIONIST has developed, I might tweak a bit to add more protein but that will be all. 

So to you that ask the question about by-products, feed what you want to feed, if your goats are in good condition, produce well, then if it isn't broke then don't fix it.

JMHO,
Autumn


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

That is true Autumn but a newbie does need to read the tags and hopefully be able to see what the by products are. I personally don't want to feed my goats chicken feathers which indeed is in some of the by products. Of course this is my opinion but do agree with you if it ain't broke don't fix it. I have a very good friend that wins all the time in the show ring ( also on this forum) who for years and years has fed sweet feed it works for her but sure didn't work for me I had sick sick goats even when switching over to it gradually.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

fascinating about the prices around the country!
my understanding was most of the protein comes from good quality alfalfa, and the grains are mostly extra energy. 

I spend extra money on organic often, its nice knowing both what IS and what is NOT coming out in my milk. I had so many health problems from farm chemicals from the childhood farm, that I just consider the extra cost like health insurance and its really helped me to go mostly organic over the past decade plus.

LOL at Vicki's "grain by-products may have been in the same room" 

What's the focus of the soy avoidance here, the endocrin disrupter implications or GMO or ?

Has anyone fed field peas? Pros or cons?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I might tweak a bit to add more protein but that will be all. 
....................................

And this is the garden path new folks are led down. "I feed ""insert brand name here"" 16% pellets or chow or lactation pellets, my goats look terrific"....then you read a few more sentences and they are feeding it with added soy...a few more posts and you will see that they add fat...or protien licks/blocks, or better alfalfa than you could find in your area. Purina goat chow is a wonderful base feed if you add fat (black oils sunflower seeds) to it, a more digestable protein with calf manna, and some better grain, barley? but hide the tag from your customers who know anything about byproduct proteins because fish and feather meal isn't acceptable to most, neither is cottonseed meal and for even some soy. So if you have to mix stuff into your great brand name by product pellet than why not just use the stuff you are adding to it as your feed? More protein ontop of a 16% protein pellet, wouldn't your goats be better off on better quality hay?





Lacia, alot of us sell milk and right now the internet as a whole is very antisoy, estrogen receptors etc..although it is what I used to get through menopause, some would say very unsuccessfully  But customers come very learnered these days. But when you explain to them the choices here....soy or cottonseed meal (which you can't find a product more chemical ladened) or fish and feather meal) the small amounts of soy used with alfalfa is usually acceptable. Vicki


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## Lunacy Acres (Feb 2, 2010)

I understand that there are many ways of managing goats that work fine, but I like the idea of whole grains, especially after reading more about the byproducts and their variability. I'll be feeding goat milk to my family and friends and want it to be the best it can be. My only reservation was the cost.....prices are high here. Maybe I can comparison shop this down a little.

Anyway, I found that I can feed this for about $17/50 lb (compared to by-product food at $14/50lb): 
50 lb whole oats
25 lb BOSS
20 lb beet pulp
25 lb calf manna

If my math is correct, it should have about 17-18% protein, and the Ca/P looks balanced at roughly 2:1. They also have good alfalfa for as long as I can get it, then either perennial peanut or alfalfa pellets. And this will be mostly for close to kidding and beyond.
Opinions?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I personally don't add that much calf mana I only top dress as I feed ea doe withjust a tad.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

IMO which is not mainstream and not designed for pushing for production totals you do not need that much protein.
You could drop the calf manna to a much smaller part or substitute soy and get by a bit cheaper. That is the main ingredient in manna pro and you don't need to pay for their advertising! And it's garbage really- sweepings in a pretty bag.
I had no idea grain is so expensive in Florida! I guess your agriculture is mostly fruit and veggies? I would also have lots more Grain that pulp and boss- double that ratio. Those are supplements not main foods and this would also lower your cost.
I really don't think you need to spend that much to get a good goat mix.
I know I have posted this before but here is what our mill mixes for us based on Sondra's recipe.

200 steam rolled oats
200 crimped barley
100 chopped corn
40 beet pulp
25 sunflower
The cost for the last batch was .21 a pound s0 10.50 for 50 pounds. 
Marilyn at the feed mill figured the ratios for me and it is 12+% protein 3 to 3.5 fat and 8 fiber.
There is of course variation in the quality of grains and how they were grown and harvested and stored so this is just an educated guestimate. The only problem with this is the way they suck it down like they haven't eaten in weeks!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I would cut the chopped corn in above to 50lb


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Sondra I covet fat goats! :biggrin


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Fat, sleek, happy goats....then they freshen with quads....not so fat  Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Buckrun, how much of that mix do you feed? 

My goats make me laugh every day with their antics. And their enthusiasm for some food is hilarious. Sometimes its even food that they already have in front of them, but if another goat is eating the same thing on the other side of the fence, then they are just desperately convinced it will be the end of the world if they don't get to eat out of THAT bucket :rofl


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Hi Camille,

You make an excellent point about how MUN in goats is different from MUN in cows. Normal MUN in cow milk is something like 12-18, whereas in goats, a normal value on browse/pasture only may be as high as 40 mg/dl. And that milk should still make good cheese unless something else is off. I personally prefer MUNs to be below 30, especially with aged cheese. It's complicated because some breeds genetically have higher MUN milk, and also the size of the goat matters, and the time of day when fed. That and MUN testing for goat milk is different than for cow milk, and labs may not calibrate equipment properly. It's a complex mess. Typical values are 20-35 mg/100ml I don't have a final say on it, but here's what I've been able to figure out.

First, let's remember the way ruminants get much of their energy and nutrients - by having bacteria do the digestive work for them and break up fibers and starches into digestible components. These bacteria also produce byproducts. Some of the byproducts, like lactic acid, are helpful (except too much causes acidosis), and some byproducts, like ammonia, are not helpful when not processed. In small concentrations, rumen bacteria can handle it and build absorbable proteins out of it. Bacteria convert something like 50% or more of the raw protein into ammonia.

In feed science, there are several ways to classify protein:

Soluble protein, aka, soluble intake protein (SIP): About half of the total degradable protein is soluble, meaning it is easily broken down without extensive fermentation. Too much can cause high MUN, or the wrong ratio can cause high MUN because those bacteria need to be healthy and work on fermenting protein, not be lazy and not stressed. Too much SIP is sort of like feeding kids nothing but sugar.

Degradable protein, aka degradable intake protein (DIP): This is the protein that is broken down into ammonia or into amino acids through long fermentation. Too much can cause high MUN.

Undegradable protein, aka undegradable intake protein (UIP): This is protein that is unfermentable, basically it’s too tough to crack and serves as roughage and fiber. This is sort of a regulator, too much or too little can cause high MUN

Another part of the equation is the carbohydrate to protein ratio, but that’s less vital. Generally, goats get enough carbs.

So going back to the MUN discussion, when the bacteria ferment DIP protein and produce ammonia, that ammonia is in the rumen. They try to use it up, but if there’s so much that they can’t use it, then it goes up with the cud, back, and is passed down to where the blood absorbs it. And once in the blood, it makes its way to milk. The liver figures out that there’s too much ammonia, and converts it into urea, which is then passed through urine, and some through milk.

Milk MUN levels reflect what the blood UN levels were 4-6 hours ago. So you could measure blood for UN, too, that’s called BUN.

I haven’t read studies about this, but my thought is that goats do everything faster than cows… absorb meds faster, have a faster metabolism (I think they need 1.5x the caloric intake of a cow per pound of live weight), and a smaller rumen with fewer total bacteria that are more easily upset by protein spikes. Cows are so big that they can balance metabolism better through size. It’s just a more delicate balance with goaties, especially the smaller ones. And because of that, the milk MUN is higher.

The management options to help with MUN are to feed a live yeast supplement, like the Diamond V XP, and/or to control total proteins in feed. Yeast needs nitrogen for cell wall development, and they can double every 20 minutes. With feed, balance is key. For example, not all alfalfa is the same. A fourth cutting may be 20% protein. That’s just too rich, especially with grain, and with free feeding.

Camille, my doelings aren’t milking right now. I’d love to be able to have their milk for cheese, but I make cheese from store milk right now. I love the Nigerian and Nigerian cross milk. The yield is almost twice as much. Some lines get 6-9% butterfat… that’s like sheep’s milk it’s so rich.

I also wanted to make one comment about grain byproducts and pelleted feeds. Yes, they do provide nutrition. And they do work for many animals. But animals are different and what works for one may not work for another, even in the same herd, so figure out a balanced system that works for you and in your area and provides a happy tradeoff among time, money, and effort. I personally prefer to manage nutrition myself. I respect nutrition science and premixed feeds, but it’s not like there’s a scientist out there who only does goat feeds, and who went over my house, ran tests, and custom made something specifically for my animals… that’s my job 

Phew, sorry, long post.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

I forgot to mention one thing. All that ammonia to urea conversion by the liver, that takes energy and effort. The liver needs to make enzymes and do its job. It's not "free". That energy used means its not being used to make milk, or to grow, or to maintain other metabolic functions.

Also, here's a good link that covers protein in feed. Easier to read than some other docs. http://www.milkproduction.com/Library/Articles/Protein.htm


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Great stuff Pav! Thanks!

Genetic diversity by definition will mean some variation how feed and nutrients are turned into goat and milk. 

I have 2 genetic "families" here in my goat pen, they prefer different foods, their milk tests with some consistent differences etc. One tested consistently 7-9% BF. Of course that's the one who *loves* BOSS, the one with 5-6% BF will do everything in her power to pick around the BOSS. Now that I've discovered Goat Crack, aka Diamond V yeast, a sprinkle of that got her to devour even the BOSS lately, so I'm very curious to see how/if the BF% changes.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Calf Manna... I went and got the label to see what's in it, no "by products", that's good. I only bought it as someone suggested giving a little to the smallest kid that just needed a boost to catch up with her siblings, so I've barely used it, it just seemed so "processed" and in a totally plastic bag and other turn offs for me. I hadn't looked at it in months.

Label says 25% protein, first ingredients are soy, corn, hominy, then "feeding oatmeal" - what the heck does the "feeding" adjective mean? Then whey and alfalfa, linseed meal seem to round out the protein components. Then on to veg oil, brewer's yeast, fenugreek & anise - what's that for? (Oh, its says for "sweet aroma & taste") Then minerals and vits.

Vicki, are you saying a little supplement with this soy is ok in your book? Mostly for youngsters or milkers?

I have this bag, manufacture date is almost 2 yrs old! Yikes. Use it or toss it? Its still unopened, I had a smaller bag I fed the doeling for a boost months ago, and I used a handful as training treats for awhile. 

If I use it, who needs it the most, the still smallest doeling (for sale) or her sister that I'd like to breed soon? Both 8.5 months now. An almost 2 yo never bred doe that I've tried to breed and I think she's a lesbian, LOL. I need to get her tested and figure out what is going on with her. Her twin sister, dam of the 8.5 month old triplets as FF, pregnant again &due in 4-5 weeks, she's the one who had the Staph mastitis as I was drying her off, and she's BIG with kids already. Another pregnant 16 month old FF, who doesn't need one ounce of extra food, if anything I'm concerned about her "good condition" lol, so clearly not her... That doe's mom, my current milker, still giving me close to a quart after 16 months fresh and my really bad newbie experiements with having her almost dried off twice, lol. She's the 3rd freshener I'm AI'ing to pb LM soon. She's aseasonal, cycles year around, so I have lots of choice with her, she's the stalwart around here, and the Queen Who Rules. I'm thinking the 8.5 month old doelings would benefit most from the boost and use it up? or toss it?


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

If it was not subject to moisture or a lot of oxygen/light, it's still good. The moisture is worse. Oxygen causes a slightly older more starchy taste, but moisture can break down the starches and make a comfy home for molds and bugs. I'd use it after two years.


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

I went years without feeding anything but bagged 16% pellet with no extra anything, grass mixed hay, minerals and my girls did great. A couple of years ago I started buying perennial peanut hay, alfalfa and that is what they get twice a day now with a big roll of mixed grass hay. I want them to have everything they need or want in front of them 24/7, I started last year adding extra protein to the mix to add butterfat and milk weights to the girls per a nutrionist's suggestion and guess what it works, my girls milk without it but milk even better with it. I have customers too they know what I feed and how I care for them, they keep coming back. Again I say to each their own but I just want folks to know that not just one way is the right way.


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

linuxboy: Since, MUN is urea, and urea is just a purer protien than Milk Protien, it would make since that you would get a high yield of cheese out of that milk?


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Doesn't work exactly like that. Major milk proteins that can come out of solution and form cheese are the caseins (a1, a2, b, and k), albumen, and globulin. Caseins form micelles with a and b caseins surrounded by a k "shell" that has a charge and enables colloidal suspension, aggregation through casein matrix formation by enzyme action (rennin is common for cheese), and precipitation by acid neutralizing the positive micelle charge as milk approaches its isoelectric point of pH 4.6. other proteins are brought out through heat, such as for ricotta.

Urea CO(NH2)2 is just a C-O carbonyl group with two NH2 amines attached to it. It has no affect on cheese yield. It does have an affect on proteolysis and catabolysis, though, and influences the types of complex compounds formed as the cheese proteins break up.

Umm. Sorry. That's rather a lot of techno speak. The short of it is that urea is dissolved because it's a salt, and milk proteins are physically bigger and can be separated from the water (whey).


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> I just want folks to know that not just one way is the right way


I agree completely and we all have to assume that the information we share is based on our own experiences with our own animals in a particular and limited environment. It helps here that we have a fairly tightly bred herd so that what works for one works pretty well for most. And those that it does not - out they go to talk someone else into something else. Another factor I think is very important in digestive health with goats is that there are only 2 goats that were not born here- a buck and aged doe and so everyone else developed their original rumen compliment on our feed regime including the browse- wild pasture- improved pasture and garden waste so they are completely adapted to our farm and none of the things they encounter leave them unprepared. The kids range with the does as soon as they can follow and get totally inoculated with all and anything they can noodle on. I think this lets them go on to an adult in this same space very capable of converting what is on offer. The rumen adapts but slowly and some of the dietary problems I have had to help with in other herds are tossing the odd new purchase into a new scheme with no time to adapt.

With the just grain mix I think I have come to a more level constancy of supplementation. It will be different for everyone but it is very interesting and fun to hear what every one does and how they like the results. I envy those who have lines that can pump out milk and look great on whatever is in whatever bag you scoop out of. I have a buncha sissies that want to be catered to so they have me well trained. 
Lee


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