# Do you always worm after kidding?



## Moody (Dec 13, 2014)

I'm new to goats and have one due next week. I was thinking of copper balusing her since I have another goat that needs that and I hear that copper helps with internal parasite loads as well. Is that ok while pregnant? I am looking at some copper on amazon and it says that it is not proven to be safe with pregnant or breeding animals.

Also she has some areas that she bites at on her skin. Possibly mites? I have tried DE but that isn't working. I think I read ivermectin works for the external parasites as well as a dewormer that many use after kidding? Do you automatically deworm after kidding or check worm loads in the first 24 hours after kidding?

Also couple of random questions. I have been feeding her a 10 oz cup of grain 2 times daily. I hope that isn't too much and makes her have a huge kid? This is her first kidding. Some places I read that little grain should be offered and other places I read that I should be upping the grain to freshening rations in the weeks prior to kidding and yet other places indicate that changing amounts of grain at the end of pregnancy can cause enterotoxemia? So confusing. 

Also I have some calcium drench for after kidding. Is this a good idea to automatically give this? Do you always give probios after kidding? How about warm electrolytes? 

I know I could give the extra calcium and the electrolytes, worm just in case, give some probios, but honestly I am more interested in less management, not more, if that makes sense. Obviously I want her to be healthy and strong, give lots of tasty milk but I also don't want to worry about the milk either from under management or from giving too much extra stuff, mainly chemical wormers unless necessary. 

I also have never tested her for anything. The breeder said she was cae negative. I know there is cae, gs6 (for Nubians), johnes and cl. I see no abscesses so I think cl is not present. Do you test for anything before yo drink the raw milk?


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

You can copper bolus whenever you need to. What copper are you looking at on amazon? I would use something like these: http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=177dd401-ee37-4eec-899b-aeb38b98e6d3&gas=copper It used to be that you could only get the larger, cow-sized ones and then had to open them up to put smaller amounts into smaller capsules, but they have goat sized ones now.

A lot of people worm after kidding for two reasons: 1) kidding is stressful and stress makes worm issues worse. 2) better to worm after kidding than while pregnant, so if you hadn't wormed while pregnant, most goats will probably benefit from being wormed at that point.

I tend to not do drenches, myself. If the goat has a fairly high calcium diet (ie, it includes alfalfa or something comparable), then you won't usually need any supplemental calcium. But a goat does need a good calcium source while pregnant and in milk. Alfalfa pellets are nice because there is no waste and they are easy to store, but they are also more expensive than hay. I generally feed both, but we grow our own alfalfa. If I was worried about calcium, I would rather have injectible CMPK (that stands for Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus, and Potassium, which is the K) on hand in case. You would get it from the vet, as it is by prescription only.

The amount of grain that you are feeding is probably fine. Where you have problems with enterotoxemia is with sudden, large changes in food, regardless of whether the goat is pregnant or not. Always do everything gradually with goats. And vaccinate against entero with CD&T (which also takes care of tetanus), but keep the antitoxin on hand in case of emergencies.

I would really suggest going over to the "Health and Wellness" section and reading a BUNCH. Lots of good reference information over there.


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## Moody (Dec 13, 2014)

It is ultracruz goat copper. It specifically says for goats. They even make a kid sized one. 

I think there is a feed withdrawal for copper bolus, right? I ordered it last night and seem to remember seeing that someplace about 6-8 hours feed withdrawal before copper bolus and 2-3 hours after. Keeping them from eating for that long esp a heavy pregnant doe can be done but seems almost cruel. I could keep them in a stall with only water for the duration. 

Thanks for the info and I will definitely go check out the suggested reading.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I don't think that a feed withdrawal is necessary, but this is the first I've heard of it. They are ruminants. I'm not sure how a feed withdrawal is supposed to help.


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## Moody (Dec 13, 2014)

Supposedly it was to keep from washing the copper rods through into other areas....gave them time to lodge into the stomach or rumen or wherever they hang out, and be slow release instead of passing right on through..,that is from hoegger farmyard.com


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Oh, I get that that would be the point of a withdrawal, however, food goes down into the goat's rumen and stays there a long time, gets brought back up, chewed on some more, lather, rinse, repeat, so I don't know that it would matter as to where the rods end up.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm new to goats and have one due next week. I was thinking of copper balusing her since I have another goat that needs that and I hear that copper helps with internal parasite loads as well. Is that ok while pregnant? I am looking at some copper on amazon and it says that it is not proven to be safe with pregnant or breeding animals. Copper is a mineral, it can be given any time.

Also she has some areas that she bites at on her skin. Possibly mites? I have tried DE but that isn't working. I think I read ivermectin works for the external parasites as well as a dewormer that many use after kidding? Do you automatically deworm after kidding or check worm loads in the first 24 hours after kidding? Probably lice, you can use CoRal powder or give an injection of plain Ivomec (must be injected to work).

Also couple of random questions. I have been feeding her a 10 oz cup of grain 2 times daily. I hope that isn't too much and makes her have a huge kid? This is her first kidding. Some places I read that little grain should be offered and other places I read that I should be upping the grain to freshening rations in the weeks prior to kidding and yet other places indicate that changing amounts of grain at the end of pregnancy can cause enterotoxemia? So confusing.

Also I have some calcium drench for after kidding. Is this a good idea to automatically give this? Do you always give probios after kidding? How about warm electrolytes? What kind of Calcium do you have? DO NOT use the gels or the Goats Prefer drench, they are caustic and burn. Get M.F.O. Oral Solution or CMPK from a vet. The CMPK is injected under the skin after being warmed to body temperature. ALWAYS keep Calcium on hand before kidding. You can speed up sluggish labor with it, and have it ready should milk fever develop.

I know I could give the extra calcium and the electrolytes, worm just in case, give some probios, but honestly I am more interested in less management, not more, if that makes sense. Obviously I want her to be healthy and strong, give lots of tasty milk but I also don't want to worry about the milk either from under management or from giving too much extra stuff, mainly chemical wormers unless necessary. Electrolytes and Probios won't be necessary, unless doe has a traumatic kidding. They do love a bucket of plain warm water after the finish kidding.

I also have never tested her for anything. The breeder said she was cae negative. I know there is cae, gs6 (for Nubians), johnes and cl. I see no abscesses so I think cl is not present. Do you test for anything before yo drink the raw milk? Sorry to have to say this, but NEVER just take a breeder's word on CAE status. You need to see current results in writing. If you are going to continue raising goats, have her tested, so you will know what to expect and how to manage any disease that she might have.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Another reason to worm when you kid is barberpole overwinters in your goats. It goes into an encysted state to wait until springtime when it can start shedding worm oocysts into a hospitable environment again. Hormones released around birthing stimulate the worms, telling them spring is near and it's time to do their thing. So worming them at this time can help nip them in the bud for the season. If you only worm once a year, this should be when IMO.


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## Moody (Dec 13, 2014)

Ok. I will try that powder for lice. Thanks!

I plan on learning to draw blood. It looks fairly simple of youtube anyway 



So no feed withdrawal is necessary when copper bolusing? So much easier if it isn't required.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

No, no feed withdrawal. It is expected for a certain portion to pass through.


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## Moody (Dec 13, 2014)

Great. That will be so much easier to just give it with no feed withdrawal. 

I have cmpk drench as far as calcium after kidding, if needed.


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## Moody (Dec 13, 2014)

She kissed yesterday. Single doeling. Healthy and nursing well. 

So wormer. I'm in n central Texas. I used quest for horses last fall on my goats at 3x the horse dose per weight per their breeder but since picked up safeguard. I have read that worms are resistant to safeguard many times. So what do you use?


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