# Milking First Fresheners



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

What's your position - is it ok to dry up first fresheners early or essential to milk them 305 days? For the stand point of maximizing future lactations.


----------



## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Personally, I try hard to get them to milk the whole time. I think it helps to teach them what to expect out of life and how to be a good goat. Maybe I'm up in the night about that, but I try to at least *pretend* like they are a serious milker and treat them with the respect I would a serious milker, and milk them to the last day I possibly can.


----------



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I do the same, give them a full lactation and I actually expect some pretty serious milk out of them, too...


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I have bred 8 first fresheners, so I'm trying to decide whether it is better for the does to sell some after freshening. 10 milkers really is a bit much for us. Seems like it would be a good plan. There are always people wanting a doe in milk.


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

In my experience, it has made no difference. I have had Top Ten milkers that were dried off in August as a yearling, and Top Ten milkers that went 305 days as a yearling too.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

For my nubians it would mean finding a pen for them with plenty of browse, or just grass hay or they would get fat as ticks being dried up early after freshening....as much of a weight problem miniature lamancha's can have just living on air, I would imagine it is the same from miniature nubians. Excess weight also means does who are harder to get bred. In Nubians you need to keep them milking at least until they are bred back, then dry them up. Vicki


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Thanks for the help!


----------



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Just wondering...what kind of production do miniature Nubians have?


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I don't know about mini nubians, and I have only had 1 mini alpine freshen so far. She is on the larger end of size for a mini. She milked 6 lbs at peak as a yearling. If you do a search, you might find the post that Daniel from Utah did with his DHI numbers from mini lamanchas. I am hopefully going to have my goats on test this year and will have records from 2 mini alpines, one starting in fall; hopefully a whole lot more the next year. There is not a lot of DHI data yet for the minis, so should be interesting. I am curious too, what a mini nubian milks. I think I'll email my friend who has a herd with a lot of them, and see what hers do. I'll put here what she tells me!


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

4-6 lbs is good, more is great. Less and I consider them pet quality. This is part of what I'm trying to figure out. Time to get some good figures on my herd, so figuring out how to do it by the book and meet family obligations as well.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Emailed my friend-some of hers do a gallon, most half gallon. Angie-I was surprised to find out that official dhi testing only requires once a month testing, so dam-raising would be very doable if you train the kids to take a bottle once a month for the test day.


----------



## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I know that my un-Kinders, while not quite minis (they are Nubian x Pygmy), are still very similar, and they peak at just over 6 lbs.


----------



## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

My 3rd generation FF Mini Alpine peaked at 7lbs last year & we milked her for 11 months. I sold my mini's to my mom, & she owns the sister to the doe she bought from me.....She is a FF is already doing 6 1/2lbs at a month fresh.

I had one breeder tell me never milk FF as it's too hard on them. My opinion is, if they are in proper condition, not too small when bred & cared for properly, there is no reason in the world not to milk them. Milking my FF mini last year for 11 months didn't hurt her one bit. She maintained perfect condition the entire time, & started getting chubby after we dried her up.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Hmm... That's interesting about DHI Nancy. I didn't know that. I was thinking to do IDGRs 30 day milk test. They have some way for accounting for dam raising. At minimum, I want to make myself keep proper barn records for the whole lactation.


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

My problem with dam raising and dhir is I sometimes have a problem with does dropping production when their kids are weaned.


----------



## Xtra (Jan 1, 2010)

OK - somewhat off topic... but what do people find that dam raising does to the does udder texture, if anything?
Also when you dam raise, are you disclosing that to potential buyers?


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I would never be dishonest or sneaky about how I manage my goats to a potential buyer. Besides, some folks want dam-raised kids and some want bottle babies so I don't feel I am losing business. 
As for the udder, sometimes it can be a challenge to keep both sides even or to keep teats from getting chapped when dam-raising, but a soft pliable udder is always that and a meaty udder is always meaty no matter if kids are on them or not.


----------



## Xtra (Jan 1, 2010)

We do not dam raise, and that just wouldn't work for our program as we need the milk. But I was curious what people's thoughts on the udder texture changes / if any... Last year I saw a doe that dam raised and her udder was tough and difficult to milk - this year, she is not being snacked on and her udder is soft, creamy and easy to milk. But I wanted to know what everyone else's experiences were.


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

doublebowgoats said:


> I would never be dishonest or sneaky about how I manage my goats to a potential buyer. Besides, some folks want dam-raised kids and some want bottle babies so I don't feel I am losing business.


Never having sold kids (yet), I'm curious, Michelle, as to why someone would want dam-raised kids? Honestly, I haven't a clue.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Some people just don't like the way bottle babies are in your back pocket all the time. Some just prefer a more natural approach to raising goats. Some folks are just looking for a registered CAE negative doeling or buckling to add to their herd, how they received their milk doesn't matter to them.


----------



## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

We have always dam raised and I would like to assure you some top notch show herds do as well. 
There is no negative impact on the udder if you do not assume that it means you have nothing to do.
And if you are not overfeeding protein for production boost which causes edema. 
When dam raising you will still have the doe up on the stand twice a day to monitor milk production and milk extra.

As to why you might want a dam raised kid...
There is a natural biological cycle in milk production that relates exclusively to the growth stage of the kid. 
High fat and high vit content in early stages to load the liver with reserves since they are born a blank slate. 
Certain nutrients are prime in different phases of nursing _to accommodate the needs of the offspring_. Feeding a pile of kids any old mix of milk from any doe that kidded whenever may make normal healthy kids but it still isn't anything like allowing the dam to harvest the plants of the season to make the composition of milk needed by the kid signaled to the doe's body by the length of time beyond parturition. The main benefits being an incredible immune system and steady growth rate with increased parasite resistance all of course based on assuming your does are properly nutritiated.

Everyone is all about this in humans...seems like they could relate to it in livestock as well. Cheesemakers understand how the quality of milk changes thru lactation. It is not just happenstance- it is the natural cycle of kid rearing by the dam. Variation of fat - protein-vitamin concentration all benefit the kid when they need it unlike just serving up any extra milk to the whole kid crop. A kid allowed to range and feed with their dam gets a more complex and complete rumen flora going faster than kids who do not beg cud from mom and noodle around on bacteria rich decomposed materials for the new pad in the rumen for a place to mfg microbes. This allows early cudding and actual caloric intake from roughage quickly as a nursing kid.

Regardless of all that and more to your question...
We have beautiful soft pliable udders that milk down to nothing. So do the other dam raised herds I know of such as Tim Pruitt. High Protein makes hard udders that are hard to milk. Not kids nursing. 
Lee


----------



## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

MF-Alpines said:


> Never having sold kids (yet), I'm curious, Michelle, as to why someone would want dam-raised kids? Honestly, I haven't a clue.


It depends how the goats are managed. If they are out on pasture and expected to kid and dam raise, then you want strong mothering traits in the dams. I used to raise sheep, and the way they are managed, having to bottle raise lambs would be almost a failure. Not everyone does the same things with their goats. They might have really great pasture for keeping goats, and might keep them differently than someone with very little land who dry lots. They might only be interested in show, not at all interested in the milk, and to such a person a goat that must be milked by a human would be undesirable.

I've had goats almost my whole life, and I've had all different kinds of goats: dairy, fiber and meat. There are different attitudes and management techniques in all these different types of goats. What might be desirable for one person would be basically a cull for another.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I find it funny that anyone would consider bottle raising the default. Until I joined this list, I had no idea there was some kind of dairy industry standard of bottle feeding with the standard breeds. Alot of breeders of NDs and Minis dam raise. My goats have always kidded easily and been good mothers. I like to bottle raise one now and then for fun, but in general, I find alot of bottle raised goats pesky. Properly handled dam raised kids can be very mannerly. My older does, 4-5 year olds, tested negative for CAE, their doelings and grands tested negative. I'll keep testing and cull if necessary, but I dam raise and wouldn't have it any other way. 

Now buying a doe from a dam raised herd that hasn't been milked before is a pitb. I had one that would not let me have that milk. Training them to milk stand as yearlings is important. I will definately milk them all. I was just trying to acertain if it was essential to milk them for a full nine months for mammary development.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

It looks like there are as many ideas about it as there are everything else in the goat world. I was thinking about your actual question. (we got way off topic for a while) Maybe it has a lot to do with blood lines and that is why people have had differing results. I know with my does, there are a couple that just don't have that long level lactation, period. I have had a few though, that don't even want to quit milking when you try to dry them off before kidding.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

That makes sense Michelle. I've always dried mine up at breeding. I'm not very swift at math. I assumed breeding to breeding was a full lactation cycle, and only just realized standard advice is to milk into the pregnancy. What I can say for mine is they can produce a modest amount almost indefinitely, but don't have any trouble drying up. I'm not sure how it will work out. I'll just have to see what I can handle. Last year I milked four and it took an hour, and that's about the time I can spare. But 3 were older does that hadn't been milked. That's the worst kind to train I think.


----------



## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Like Tracy, I haven't noticed any difference either. I tend to back off milking our does (Nubians) in October when I have to be out of town for a week at the ADGA annual meeting, so does that may have kidded in May don't get milked nearly as long as those that kid in January or February. Regardless, all but two of our older does have their milk stars now. Regarding dam raising and milk test, many years ago when we dam raised our does held back milk when we tried to milk them, refusing to let us have more than a pound or two per milking until the kids were weaned. If does that are dam raising kids appear to have "tough" udders, it may be because they're holding milk back for their kids so their udders feel more like a clenched muscle when you feel them. Caroline


----------



## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> We have beautiful soft pliable udders that milk down to nothing. So do the other dam raised herds I know of such as Tim Pruitt. High Protein makes hard udders that are hard to milk. Not kids nursing.


Lee, I have sometimes dam raised goats in the past and and I also teach people how to do it. I think we need to clean up our industry and offer alternative ways to raise dairy goats so that it will not be so labor intensive. With dam raising, you can let the kids nurse during the day and pen them at night, taking the milk you need each morning. You can raise gentle kids this way but they must be handled. I would lead mine out to mama and then pen them at night and lead them to their pen with hay and feed. Kids done this way were very gentle and NO! nursing kids do not make hard udders.

However, to set the record straight, we at Pruittville, raise our kids with heat treated colostrum and pasteurize every sip of milk. Why? Sales demand it! We also test yearly for the same reason!


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Dang Tim, I just knew since you had gone back to lambars, after dam raising...that you would go back to raw colostrum and raw milk...I mean when was the last time you even bought a doe! When is our negative tests enough....10 years, 12 years, 17 years (me). I haven't had one person balk, I had it highlighted at the top of my contract this year, that I am feeding raw colostrum and raw milk from my years of testing. Not one after I told them didn't send their deposit. Vicki


----------



## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

My apologies Tim. 
Sorry for making the assumption that you were still doing that. 
When I first became aware of your herd back in the Ivy and Chive days I was under the impression you dam raised and it just never occurred to me you would not. Glad you set the record straight. 
Lee


----------



## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> My apologies Tim.
> Sorry for making the assumption that you were still doing that.


No apologies necessary Lee! I use a turkey fryer and it is not a big deal to pasteurize. When I go in the barn to do chores, I turn it on to 200 degrees. When the milking is done, then I put it in a bucket and place it in the water of the turkey fryer and by the time we are through washing the pails and sweeping the floor, it is 165 degrees. I turn off the fryer and leave it until kid feeding.



> Dang Tim, I just knew since you had gone back to lambars, after dam raising...that you would go back to raw colostrum and raw milk...I mean when was the last time you even bought a doe! When is our negative tests enough....10 years, 12 years, 17 years (me). I haven't had one person balk, I had it highlighted at the top of my contract this year, that I am feeding raw colostrum and raw milk from my years of testing. Not one after I told them didn't send their deposit. Vicki


Vicki,
I would be tempted to do the same as it removes one more step and makes for less work. Although I haven't added a doe to the herd for years, I take the animals out to shows each year. There is always a chance (however so slight) that the goats picked up something at a show whether accidentally or maliciously. What if the test didn't catch it in time and I pooled the milk or shared the colostrum? Then I might have a whole kid crop to replace and then how long would it be for me to rebuild my reputation?

At a National show, the milk dump was in the same room as the wash area where the goats were bathed. While bathing Huckberry Frost a breeder (who is known for CAE goats) passed by with her milk pail to dump. Frost came within inches of sticking her nose into her bucket of milk and getting a taste. I had nightmares over that incident for a long time.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Geesh, you would think with all the raw milk regulations, they would treat the milk as a biohazard at a show. Creepy!


----------



## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

AHhh!!!! Tim that is so scarey. That is why I really don't like to go to goat shows.


----------



## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Tim Pruitt said:


> At a National show, the milk dump was in the same room as the wash area where the goats were bathed. While bathing Huckberry Frost a breeder (who is known for CAE goats) passed by with her milk pail to dump. Frost came within inches of sticking her nose into her bucket of milk and getting a taste. I had nightmares over that incident for a long time.


*Cringe!*


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

The question was raised about mini Nubian production. I remembered this page.

http://idgr.info/index/?page_id=132

To get a yellow milk star, a 2 year at 30 days freshened would need to give 6 lbs for 30 days straight, a 3 year old more than 7. IDGR has a colored star system, yellow is the minimum.


----------

