# Question on Nubian Bloodlines



## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I just got a new PB Nubian doeling. She seems a little small for her age, she was born March 25th 2010. She was loaded with tapeworms and was only fed an ok quality hay, no grain. She has been dewormed and I have started her on grain to bring her weight up, she is very skinny. My questions is has she been stunted by poor nurtition and the worms or could she possibly catch up. She is out of a Jacobs Pride doe and a Saada Buck, are either of these lines slower to mature then other lines? Thanks for any help.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes- to the slow maturity question but it was calories most likely. 
Go slow in boosting her and try to stay with high fiber like oats and barley. I would stay away from molasses since she has not had any and will acidify and skew the flora in the rumen for sugar digestion. You can add some rice bran powder to her grain for extra fat but try not to exceed 5 percent of the total ration. Just a couple of teaspoons daily is enough.
When you say grain I am hoping you mean whole grains and not 'grain' as in processed ration which is not the same thing in effect. Good luck. Sounds like nice background to work with. Let us know how it goes!
Lee


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I ment "grain" as a generic term. She is on a mix of oats, barley, calf manna, & alfalfa pellets but is only getting a 1/2 cup at a time right now. She is also getting all the hay she wants.
Thanks for the help. She really is a beautiful animal and she has ears that go on for a mile!


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

> She seems a little small for her age, she was born March 25th 2010.


Hard to tell based on the above. How much does she weigh?

I have twin Nubian does born March 31st that are both weighing about 85 pounds each right now. Not sure if yours is more or less but that should give you some idea of what I feel is average.

Vicki's probably weight more...


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Grain is a problematic term in the livestock world.
It really only denotes the seeds of grasses. Not pelleted feeds or processed mixes.
Those are more properly referred to as "feed". It is hard to know what protocol people use when these terms are used interchangeably. Thank you for clarifying. She should pick up quickly if you are careful not to stress her with too much too soon. Would love a photo as both lines are so admirable. Congratulations. 

Do you know if she was raised on cocci prevention? I don't know how serious this is in MI but here it can set kids back even if they are never obviously ill with it.


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## Little Moon (Dec 29, 2007)

I do not have a lot of experience with various lines, but in my limited experience I have found that Saada lines are a bit slow to mature, however it seems that you gain it back in longevity.

Anne


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

My doelings who weigh more Ziggy are from older dams, although all raised away from mom, just like what you see in calves coming out of hefiers, does here coming out of yearlings and second fresheing two year olds, simply will be smaller that first year than kids coming out of older does. All my kids out of my older does are nearing 100 pounds, kids out of young dams are nearing 90 pounds. Not alot of difference but a measurable difference every year.

First off I would worm her, 3 times 10 days apart, and use a cocktail the first worming so you can get tapes and stomach worms all in one. I would also put her though a sulfa treatment for cocci, vaccinate her, trim feet, send in blood and quaranteen for the remainder of 21 days, while waiting for blood tests to come back. I would take the alfala pellets out of her grain mix, and feed them 24/7 in a feeder in the barn, find some good quality alfalfa hay to use and use your grain mix, making sure your soy protein is enough to move your oats and barley to 16% which mean 1/4 of the ration would have to be the calf manna. You also can't breed her, which is the real crime with how she was raised...raised by Saada, on all the milk they want forever she would be kidding for them at 11 or 12 months old, 14 months old here. So go slow, you have a year before you need her where she should be. Really give her a once over, if you can have a nubian breeder look her over for you, it in the long run would be cheaper to buy a new kid from the bloodline in the spring, than to rehab this doe who may still never grow to her potential. I would also test her for G6S since part of the bloodline are carriers. Vicki


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Her sire came from Ain-Ash Shams, they test for G6S so I know her sire doesnt carry the gene. However I do know the person who bought her grand-dam & half sister from the same farm and they were also loaded with tapeworm and very very skinny. She has been here a little over 3 weeks and has been dewormed twice and is due for 3rd next week. She is around 45lbs but is tall and long. 

She is getting all the alfalfa hay she wants, I offer both grass & alfalfa hay, I am fortunate enough to have high quality grass & alfalfa hay available for very low prices.

She is out of a first freshner and triplets. I will try and get pics posted.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Well it sounds like you have her on the right program now (but I dont think you are feeding her enough grain - my kids basically have free choice acess). 

Since she may not have been getting grain you probably want to increase it gradually but I would recommend working it up to at least a couple of pounds a day if not free choice. The recomendation of free choice alfalfa pellets is a good one too - that's what my milkers get in addition to free choice alfalfa hay(that meant the hay feeder is never empty).

I have to agree with Vickie - you will not be able to /should not breed her this year and will have to carry her through to next year and hope that she can regain up to where she should be by then.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Saada goats are faster maturing Nubians. They really power feed their babies as well. I'm familiar with that line and Saada's management as they are members of my goat club. I don't know alot about the Jacob's pride line, but the doeling they had at the Spotlight sale was growing out well. She was not quite as big as a Saada goat, but still looked big enough to breed this year. Your kid's lack of growth is a management issue and I agree she should not be bred this year. She does have the genetic potential to grow under better management.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Thank you for all the info. I am in no hurry to breed her, we are looking at fall 2011 for breeding. I am slowly increasing the amount of feed shes getting, I am not offering free choice grains yet as she still gobbles it all up as fast as she can.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sounds as if this doeling is very lucky to have found you and your home! Vicki


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Ok need some help.... I have dewormed this little doe with a few different wormers and had a fecal done, she doesnt need to be dewormed again and she doesnt have coccidiosis(sp?) but shes just not growing. She has gained some weight but not enough. She has alfalfa hay & pellets & grass hay 24 hrs a day. She also has a mix of mare & foal pellets, barley, oats, calf manna, & BOSS 24 hrs a day. She eats but just isnt growing or really gaining weight, I am stumped... any advie will help. Oh she also has free choice minerals.
Her sire is G6S normal.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I don't know about others, but mine always seem to head a real speed bump in growth once later fall, early winter comes along. 

She could also have damage to her digestion from past cocci infection. This will prevent her from absorbing her food well.


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

Let's see; you're in Michigan where it is probably colder than here in VA, she was skinny and stunted and you have been on this new program with her from the date of the post - 22 Oct, only 10 weeks or so. When animals are set back this far, it takes quite a bit to get them jump started to grow. It seems as if you have been maintaining her and she hasn't fallen backwards, this is good. So, come warmer weather when all her intake is not going to warming herself AND to grow, she should have a good sized growth spurt. Let's say sometime in late March or April. Patience is the key and do not expect to see big jumps so soon. I have brought back many a rescued horse and they do not regain their weight very quickly and you can't expect them to. It is very traumatic for the animal to loose such condition and they didn't get that way overnight and they are not going to replace what they lost overnight either, especially if they are to be growing too. It is a long road, but you also, for the health of the animal can not rush it either. So long as she continues to improve and gain little by little, you are doing all you can do RIGHT now. Spring will tell a different story. Has she begun to cycle? That will also be a sign of her improvement. Keep up the good work and post some pics if you can. We would all love to see her!


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Keep feeding that hay. Build her rumen capacity. You say she is tall and long, yet when you got her only 45 lb. I have a Sadda (Bearly Adonijah) daughter, granddauger, and great granddaughter, who (I believe) Susanne still has that buck. They are inches shorter than other goats the same age, but they are long, level and WIDE! Poetry in motion walking across the yard.  My doe kid born March 10 is the granddaughter and I'd guess at about 90 lb, yet is about the same weight as an early Feb doe kid that is taller, but not Saada lines. I think patience is the key. Give her time to build that capacity and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

I bought an Alpine doe that was 7 months old and had the same problem (a year ago in winter). Under weight (40 lbs), not wormed properly, no cocci prevention, and not fed adequately by the previous owner. I did all the steps to get her back on track. It took until the summer to really see a difference in her weight. This past Sept she hit 105 lbs but it took all summer to get her there. I'm sure she has problems from the parasites she had. I don't expect her to grow to her potential. I am excited to see her kids when they are born in April. Be patient. Linda


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Thanks, all this helps, I am worried shes always going to be so small. I do have a goat coat on her to help her keep warm so that all her energy doesnt go to staying warm. 

I will try and post pics of her. She is nice an long with ears that go on forever!


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

I like to see my young ones gain 10 pounds a month during their first year. So, it will take her a while to get up to proper weight.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

It may just take her some time to grow out under your management. In the fall of 09 I bought a doeling from a breeder who said she had an issue with cocci that year. The kid was smaller than my goats the same age so I held her back and didn't breed her. This year, she's bigger than those same yearlings who freshened this spring. Unless her digestive system is really messed up, she should catch up.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I cant figure out how to post pics on here. Trying to post a pic of her w/ her nigerian buddy.


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I bought a skinny 78 pounder purebred...blah blah blah...she is now 180 lbs. 18 months later....BUT...her immune system is fried... Unfortunately Vicki told me that...throw the kitchen sink at her but she will probbably never pull out of it...DANG I hate it when that woman is always right Tee Hee..At least she didn't tell you that!


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I hope shes just small because of poor management when she was a baby, and nothing else is going on, but shes got a permanent home here. She is going to the 4-H fair this summer the cloverbuds(5-7yr olds) will show her, she is an awesome doe, has quite the personality and the ears oohhhh the ears they go on forever, HA HA im surprised she doesnt trip on them HA HA. When she runds her ears flop and she looks like shes trying to fly!! I will still try and post a couple pics of her.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Ok I know this is an older post but my doe finally seems to be growing!! I was looking at her over the weekend and she has finally passed my boer doe in height. The boer doe was born April 15 2010 and the Nubian March 25 2010. She is now taller and longer then the boer!!!! SHES GROWING!!!! I am soooo relieved, I was worried I would have a tiny nubian forever.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I have a Saada bred buck (His sire is from them) and I just had his first kids born last night-twin bucks of course. The twins dam is a Nuberhalsi. What a difference in quality even when the dam is not purebred (she is very well bred on the Obie side though). Those boys are big, look all Nubian and are just gorgeous. I so hope the 3 other does bred to him have doe kids, I want to show them!

My Saada buck stopped growing well after he weaned himself from the bottle. However that also coincided with rut. He is now gaining condition again and looks very very nice. Quality says it all. I wish I could afford to buy more well bred animals, as all my does are crosses or non-Nubians. I had to sell the really good stock a few years ago when I lost my job and they sold better (naturally).

And even though his growing came to a halt during rut, he is growing better than my other Nubian bucks did at this age.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Suzaane doesn't own the sire anymore, but she had told me His sire was a very slow growing buck,
tiny tiny, and then Blam huge, and that is what BA did with his growth.


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## grandmajo (May 22, 2008)

tendermeadowsnigerians said:


> Ok need some help.... I have dewormed this little doe with a few different wormers and had a fecal done, she doesnt need to be dewormed again and she doesnt have coccidiosis(sp?)


A little tip that Vicki shared with me about fecals in January in our cold weather (I'm in NW Ohio). When you're in the frozen tundra, you probably won't see anything on the fecals in the winter. I think Vicki put it as "no self-respecting mamma worm is gonna lay eggs in your cold weather".


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Sometimes we have to be reminded that not "every goat born MUST be retained" (this includes being sold to someone else.

For example, corn at one time was eaten (the best ears and kernels), and the smaller leftovers kept for seed. When this eventually was reversed and the best of the best saved for seed stock, improvement and yields increased.

This too could (should) be the same with management of livestock.

I speak from experience of being willing to send does, wethers, and bucks kids to the butcher block. Not all bucks are "buck material" and not all does are "doe material."

I'm not saying there is anything "not" about your doe in this example, just that you may want to be reminded that every goat doesn't necessarily need to be in the future genepool.

It doesn't cost any more to feed and provide for a goat that is right in there for "average" of the breed than it does to care and feed for a stunted (or otherwise?) animal -- in fact, the very opposite may come to light.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Bill- This is a nice doe with nice bloodlines, she is long, wide and her dam & grand dam have wonderful udders. 
She was just on the small side, I was asking if her bloodlines were known to be slow growing or if she may have had something else going on. The farm I got her from has nice animals, and she pays for high quality animals but is somewhat uneducated on care and proper feeding. But I was wanting to know if she was small because of her care or a combo of care & slower growing bloodlines. She is far from a cull animal and is turning out to be quite a large girl, she has passed my boer doe in height & length who is the same age and is closing in on 100lbs.


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Nicole -- sounds like your doe is on the way to a great future for you then. Congratulations on finding a doe with good bloodlines and getting her cared for in a way that she can grow into her destiny! Best wishes with her.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The point is GCH does have culls, you just don't hear about them on open forum...you certainly don't see the name brand breeders talking about their herd on open forum. And especially in nubians, where we come from with bottom teeth showing, bad bites are going to show up. The best advice is, don't fool yourself, problems rarely get better, usually get worse. A kid not hitting her 10 pounds a month is rarely going to become anything to be admired. If it takes heroic skills to keep a kid alive, especially if you don't have help and it's to the detriment of your family or the rest of the goats care, is rarely going to bring your herd anything of value. All goats should be purchased because of the value of what they will bring to your herd (pedigree, milk, meat to calorie conversion, hair, pet), after the purchase and even before when you have a list of excuses for why she is small, why she doesn't milk well, why she isn't friendly, why why why, that is a cull in your herd, may not be a cull in someone elses herd. V


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Vicki,

Sometimes I just smile and let folks hear what they want to hear (which is usually what they have said all along). The saying goes... Excuses are like [self-censored!!!] ... but you get the drift.

I seldom even bother leading the proverbial horse to the water anymore. After 35 years, I sip my water from a distance, offer my opinion, and then sip some more. <G>


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep I know I bang my head on the wall alot Bill, but I can't give up now  Few were honest with me in the beginning, especially those who I competed against, and with my horse back ground, which I think gives you a leg up seeing conformation...we did very well showing juniors. I had 3 men breeders, one a judge, give back to me, educate me really in what was what. 

The rest is better left to Off Topic which you have more posts to answer before you get to grace us with a little more wisdom  LOL!


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Well, here's number 60 LOL... maybe "I think" I have a lot to say <G> haha


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Saw this doe at appraisals this week-end.  Big, BIG, HUGE girl! Absolutely STUNNING and has that GORGEOUS Saada head and loooooong ears. Scored an 88 as a 3 yr old. (Don't remember the V's and E's.) Also had her full sister who was just as Big, but dry, so wasn't appraised. The gal said she was thinking of putting her on a diet! LOL She has a doe kid out of Honey sired by a buck of my breeding, who I absolutely LOVE!!! Said that doeling was her best appraising kid. Can't wait to see more babies out of these two sisters this next year.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Awesome!


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