# bleeding after cidr



## lasergrl (Jan 24, 2010)

I have a doeling that needed a CIDR. It was very hard to get the cidr in. I actually gloved up and went in to see what was up. She was very narrow, hardly could get my finger in. I tried to kinda gently stretch things a bit. The CIDR did go in easy but remained protruding just slightly. This doeling is going on 2 years old and not any smaller then any others Ive used the CIDR on, but, I never have used one on a doe that hadnt kidded before so this might be the difference.
There was about 6drops worth on blood seeping out around the CIDR once I was done. There hasnt been any more bleeding.

Is this normal??? Should I be very worried or should I not be using them on first time doe?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi, first could you please put your name into your signature line, thanks!

She may have a hyman that needs to be busted, I have used CIDR's on 8 month olds, so no way is this normal, the blood, nor it not going in easily when lubed up. OR she may have a boxed vagina, that goes nowhere. When live serviced the buck sprays semen all over the does thighs because the penis can not penetrate the end of the vagina, and spray semen onto the cervix. Do you AI or know someone who does who can give her a looksee via a speculum? Vicki


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## lasergrl (Jan 24, 2010)

It was even tight going into the vulva. It did not even go into the vulva easily until I stretched things with my finger.
I do want to specify that this is a nigerian dwarf, so small.

I was able to feel a very tight ring of tissue, and I tried to stretch this a bit with my finger, and was barely able to pass my finger through.

My finger did not cause the bleeding, but it seemed that most of it was from the initial try of getting the applicator to pass her vulva! I just hope I didnt damage her permanantly 
I do have another similiar sized doeling that I tried last week and the CIDR also wouldnt go in but I said forget it and put her in with my own buck instead of the outside breeding I had hoped for.


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## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

I will never know unless I ask, What is a CIDR?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Brenda think plastic tampon bathed in progesterone, when inserted a plastic string is attached so you can pull it out. It has 'wings' so it sits on the other side of the muscles in her vagina so she can not pee it out. It tricks the doe, no matter what time of the year it is, and she will come into heat. Tons of info on here on them.

Tiffany, I have bred minimanchas with them, no difference in the size of their vulva's or vaginas, you got something going on wrong with your girls anatomy. Vicki


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## lasergrl (Jan 24, 2010)

Vicki I would agree apart from both Nigerians the same size, had the same anatomy. They are not related :/


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Mini LM are still larger than a Nigerian, especially if they are 75% LM. I just did an AI class, and we had Nigerians to look at with speculums. These were yearlings at the youngest, and the small speculums barely fit in some of them. The CIDR tube, I would say is probably about the same size as the small speculum, so depending how small the doelings are, perhaps there isn't anything wrong with them. However, you should be able to get a finger in. Did you try gloving up, lubing up and inserting your finger to see how far it would go? I think either the doe has a tough hymen in the way or incorrect anatomy, because the CIDR should be able to go all the way in and not be hanging out.


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## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

one more silly question - why not lute instead?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Brenda, using a CIDR during this time of year gives you heat and ovulation. Using lute can give you heat if given in the right part of their estrous cycle, but never, be it in season or not, guarantees they have eggs to ripen for ovulation, so with lutelyse which is all we used to have, you had heat/breedings and no conception. CIDR's are excellent there is no way of getting conception out of season up near 99% with lutelyse like you can with CIDR's and PG600 (which forces ovulation).

I had 2, 3rd generation minimanchas and 1, 4th generation, their vaginas have to fit a penis which means a CIDR should fit easily, as should your finger. Course like I have said before I rarely bred mine to kid before 17 months most closer to 24 months old.


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## lasergrl (Jan 24, 2010)

I did glove up, and my finger very barely it around a very small circle of tissue. I stretched this circle a little and it did help. Once I got past that, it was not a dead end by any means. There was just a very tight area before I could. 
This morning the cider is still in. If it stays in, I will pull it out ina week, try and stretch a little more, and re insert. She was so swollen after yesterday I want to give some time to go back to normal.


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## lasergrl (Jan 24, 2010)

OK here is another question then. Is there a way to use lute and pg 600 together if the cider just won't work?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If a CIDR will not go all the way in, how will a buck's penis be able to go in and breed her? Think about this logically, what you are saying is that her vagina isn't longer than a CIDR.

I am sure you can find a protocol for lute to use, then when she is in heat give her PG600 and put her in with the buck to be bred....this time of year she is ovualting so you should be seeing heat also. Have you seen this doe in heat at all? Make sure and clean the CIDR and her vagina and your gloves super well with chlorhexideen if you are going to keep trying to 'stretch' this opening....I don't let the string hand out of the CIDR, let alone the CIDR, you are just going to end of with an infection. Vicki


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## lasergrl (Jan 24, 2010)

The canal is long enough, to be sure. It just has that area that isn't wide enough. My bucks penis is definately thin enough to do the job, as its thinner then a pinky, nasty little thing . The CIDR itself would probably fit but with the applicator it was just barley too thick, I think. That is probably why she bled. 
The canal length is not the issue, but this very narrow tight area inside (cervix?? Human??) I don't have any idea. I'm sure she will get bred, but with the cider, I guess I'll have to see.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The applicator does not go into the vagina. You are not reaching the cervix to open it and make it bleed with your pinky  Let us know how this turns out. Vicki


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## lasergrl (Jan 24, 2010)

Will do, let you know how it turns out.

Gotta love auto correct, meant hymen, not human, in my last post...


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Vicki, were you holding off on breeding your Minis because you were breeding back to an LM buck? We're planning to breed ours LM next Fall to freshen as 2 year olds, but at 7 months they are already getting so pudgy I've started thinking about breeding them to our Rosasharn buck just to get them milking as yearlings. I'm worried they're going to be really fat if I hold them over. The kid crop wouldn't be registered obviously, but I wouldn't be comfortable kidding them out as yearlings bred LM.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No, I only used a Purebred ADGA buck the last year I bred my mini's. Before then it was always a buck one generation closer to purebred than they were (with correct breed character  lOL!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Did you use a lubricant? Because believe me, your buck does! Just use lubricant any time you check a doe, because there's no reason to hurt her, the lube prevents that.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Why wouldn't the kid crop be registered if using a Nigerian buck over those does? I've only had mini's a short time, but I know plenty of people that breed them to kid as yearlings no problem. Why would it be okay to breed a Nigerian to kid as a yearling, and a full size goat to kid as a yearling, but not a mini?


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

I don't have any problem breeding them kid as yearlings. But I don't know that I'd be comfortable kidding them out as yearlings if bred to a PB LM buck and I hadn't planned on breeding them ND, and so I had planned to hold them over but they're getting chubby. Bred to a Nigerian buck I don't see any issue with kidding at all. 

What would be the benefit in registering 75% ND, 25% LM as Miniature LaManchas? The mammary systems in these lines would make them great little milkers, but I don't think I'd sell them registered.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Maybe you could find them a "date" with a mini lamancha buck nearby. 

There are some people who want that mix...I don't know why. LOL.

Well, actually, one reason you might want that mix is if you are trying to create a 60ish/40ish percent large breed/Nigerian. You could use that mix of a buck over a full-size doe to get the %'s your trying to get. Since yours are ff, probably you won't be keeping bucks anyway, but they might still sell well as pets-the mini lamanchas are pretty dang cute. Another reason someone may want to have a mix like that is if they are having problems with their mini goats getting too large, so that might help bring down the size.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Our bloodlines of minimanchas had litters, it was common to have quads and quints, much more so than twins or triplets, even in 2 year old FF. No way would I have wanted to see how small those kids would have been had they come out of a 12 or 13 month old first freshener. As we commonly had 2 pound, super healthy quads and quints out of older does. Vicki


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

I won't hijack this thread any more than I have, but yes Nancy they would be sold as pets and not registered. I don't want large NDs, I want Mini LMs.


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## lasergrl (Jan 24, 2010)

Just to update this thread,

Both doelings came back as pregnant yesterday ia biotracking.

So, if anyone else has these troubles with CIDR not fitting, they can still get pregnant!
One of these doelings, also, I posted that I thought it was a hermaphrodite last year. Obiously not at this point!


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks for the update! Glad they are pregnant.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Yes, thanks for the update. Glad it all worked out.


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