# Abcesses and CL



## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I have to say that I am literally shaking in my shoes right now after reading stuff on CL. This doe turned up with an abcess today on her sholder. I can grab it and lift it off of her. It is the size of a gum ball. Exactly 2 weeks ago I gave her a CD&T injection in that site. Should I immeidately take her in teh morning to the vet to have it tested for CL. What am I going to do if it is positive...OMG ....I'm telling you if this is what she has I am giving these does back to the jack_ _ _ who sold them to me, and I will NEVER AGAIN OWN A GOAT. I cannot risk infection to my children OMG I am....aaaahhhhhhh


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## shawhee (Jun 28, 2008)

I am no expert here by any means. But I have heard of a lump at the site of injection. Stay calm; it may just be from the cdt shot that you gave her. But I am sure someone with more experience than me will come along and help.

Shawna


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## Secondairy (Aug 12, 2008)

It is not uncommon for goats to develop a cyst at the injection site of CD&T. Bar-Vac and Covexin seem to be the culprit in most cases. I am not saying that you shouldn't have your goat tested just in case it is CL, but since it is at an injection site, the injection itself could have caused the lump. We did our CD&T's in the armpit this year to prevent abscesses from being in the areas most associated with CL. None of them reacted fortunately, however it is easier to explain an injection site abscess in the armpit, than a lump on a portion of the body where CL likes to rear it's ugly head.

Hopefully more will comment on this thread. This is just MPO.

Kelly


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Exactly 2 weeks ago I gave her a CD&T injection in that site.


Is the knot at the junction of the neck and shoulder? If it's anywhere but where a lymph gland is...you're dealing with a shot reaction. 
My next question...WHY are you giving shots of vaccine in this area? Vaccines need to be given over the lower rib cage,1/2 way between the last rib and the armpit. Reason...if it swells or leaves a knot it is in an area that can't be mistaken for CL and with swelling...it's a lot less painful in this area. There's room for it to swell and not cause lameness to the front leg.
Kaye


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I read in my Hoegger magazine where to give injections...I didn't realize it should be done there...it is right at the junction of the neck and shoulder. The swelling if it was from the cdt shot, get any larger? Would it burst? It seems like a long period of time to not have a reaction and then all of a sudden wammo there one is? Should I haul both their butts to the vet today and have bloodwork done which includes CAE?


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## Secondairy (Aug 12, 2008)

> If it's anywhere but where a lymph gland is...you're dealing with a shot reaction.


Kaye, I have to respectfully disagree. Our first goat developed a lump on her neck, close to the shoulder and then near her hip, just behind the flank, both on the same side. I had read so much about CL that I was in budding hysteria, and two vets that I spoke with commented that it was most likely from injection reaction. I kept my mouth shut, sedated the animal, got a culture of both lumps, plus completely removed the lumps with scalpel and scraped them down to the root. Cauterized the abscesses, and waited for the drunk goat to wake up. I did as informed, and burned everything that came in contact with my 'procedure' except for myself, and then asked my dog and cat vet to send my sample out for an anaerobic culture. BOTH lump's exudate came back positive for CL. Needless to say the animal is no longer with us. Her quarantine pen was also disinfected, and the ground under and around it was burned, and the soil scraped off and removed to the far corner of my neighbors 800 acres.

Please don't think I am contradicting you, as I am almost positive that mamatomany is dealing with an injection site reaction, however I wont even begin to rule CL out personally, as I had that single case show atypical location.

Kelly


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I just went and milked her and this cyst has not grown and it is more on her back on her first rib just above the meaty part.


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

[ I kept my mouth shut, sedated the animal, got a culture of both lumps, plus completely removed the lumps with scalpel and scraped them down to the root. Cauterized the abscesses, and waited for the drunk goat to wake up. [/quote]

Wow woman, I'm shakin my head I am amazed at what women can accomplish...I don't think I could ever do that for one of my goats..


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Linda in your searches for abscess and cl did you see the pictures that show where CL is usually found at the lymph nodes?


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I did read that last night, but Kelly's post indicates that there is a potential to have it located in different areas. I will call my vet and have it checked out cuz' I am in no position to monkey around with abcesses. I could never do what Kelley has done to her goats. I just don't have it in me unfortunately.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

That is probably the smart thing to do Linda also I would isolate the doe until you find out.


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I just got back from the vet, he said negative to the CL. He tried to get something out of it, hard mass, scar tissue from injection of CD&T. He did cyto it and said no. I had him do a CAE on her too....so I'm a happy girl. She was a good girl too. I am learning a ton about goats from you guys. She being, 83 lbs. soakin wet, my vet said aw she is fine, if your milkin her she will stay skinny....ummmm o.k. thanks here's my $71.00 for the visit. Have a great day....another question, how much red cell should I be giving them to help build their blood up?


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## Secondairy (Aug 12, 2008)

I am sorry that this picture is so small, but this is the only one that I had of the original goat that we had. This picture was taken the day we brought her home, and my 5'4" daughter standing next to her holding her horn.

I put a red circle on her side so show where the lump was, and you can still see the lump clearly through her winter coat. Neck lump took longer to develop, and this was during my ignorant time, so I was unsure of what it really was. She was a Saanen/Kiko cross, and was 7 days away from kidding in the picture. We had no idea she was pregnant, as her body condition would have told me otherwise. She and her kid are no longer with us. The kid came back clean for everything as a yearling, and she went off to a pet home as she was strongly attached to humans. Doe ended up being fertilizer.

Kelly


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

just give her like 3 to 6 cc daily of the red cell


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

Wow that lump is something! Someone just posted the "what if I drank CL milk?" I'm interested to see the responses on that. Thanks for taking the time to post the picture


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Disagreement taken. But, I'd be more inclined to panic over an abcessed lymph node than an abcess somewhere else. And if either happened...I'd be wanting to know which type of Corynebacterium or disease caused it, and history. There are also many other reasons a lymph node would be swollen. I'm just really not in the debate mode today.

With this one...she said she had given a vaccination shot. Very typical.
Kaye


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Well here's a little story....

We attended the Bonner County Fair last week (DD1 and DS2 were market goat GCH and RGCH), but the Fair also has goats that are entered in the open classes and judged by a goat person, but not an ADGA judge.

A woman had a goat with an abscess, partially healed, EXACTLY where the pink circle is in the example goat, just forward of the shoulder. A young 4-H gal with some nice Oberhaslis (nice temperaments - reminded me of Saanens, actually) was so freaked out that I went and found one of the gals that helps run the fair (and works for a vet and raises sheep). In my mind, the goat should have been asked to leave. Period. Instead, this woman has this big story about that she vaccinated for CL there, and then the goat swelled up and then the abscess appeared and she had the contents of the abscess tested and it came back negative. The sheep gal says, "Well that is not a typical location for a CL abscess, and she did vaccinate there." Goat remained. Fortunately, the goat was penned at the other end from this young lady. Unfortunately, they were both in the Oberhasli class together.

The goats this woman had there were rough coated, had arthritic knees (she claimed she was CAE negative, but I know via the grapevine that that isn't true) and just nasty specimens of goats. DD1 had to show one of these goats in Round Robin showmanship (she brought her own meat goat, but showed someone else's pig, beef, horse, sheep and dairy goat). She was so disgusted when she was done that she scrubbed for 10 minutes afterward, changed her clothes and I washed her stuff as soon as we got home. Ugh! Oh, and did step in bleach water at home.

I agree that Linda's goat sounds typical of CDT lump/abscess. But I have grave doubts about that other goat. And why we are so glad that we take only terminal animals to this fair - very scary. Frankly, I don't see why this woman (Ok and another woman with awful looking goats) bring their goats to the Fair at all. I'd be so embarrassed! I guess it helps me understand two things - why dairy goats don't get the respect they deserve, and why folks think you should sell them a goat for $50.00. 

Camille


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If it was actually cornybacterium P. in the abscess on the side of your goat it likely was where the bacteria first entered to infect her...from that point forward it sets up in the lymphatic system of the goat, giving you abscess in the lymphglands. Vicki


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

FWIW from a total newbie  , I learned recently (Kris Ellis taught how to pull blood at the most recent VSGBA meeting, and this was a BTW comment) that many injection site knots could be prevented if we'd wash down the injection site prior to giving a vaccine--you know, like the doctor does on our arms before we get a shot or have blood pulled? Many times, the knot is not from whatever was in the syringe, but the dirt on the skin that was pushed inside the animal. I know that swelling at an injection site in a human is not uncommon, even if the area is swabbed w/alcohol, but I can only imagine how much worse it would be if we didn't do that. I know lots of folks (even vets) don't always do this, but I thought it was worth a try--and I have a few extra bottles of rubbing alcohol laying around! I just did CD/Ts and there are no knots, so I'll probably keep this practice up anyway...


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

whoa billie way too many acronyms for us old people not down wit the lingo what is FWIW


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

FWIW = For what its worth

ray


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I totally agree! Your going to get granulomas it's the bodies immunity, but you won't get lumps that stay forever or abscess if you clean the skin before hand. Vicki


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## shawhee (Jun 28, 2008)

FWIW = For what its worth :biggrin


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