# Barberpole help



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

My nubian doe, Jodi has a large amount of barberpole in her fecal. I just got back from being out of town, she's was goat sitted while I was gone. I told them about the worms before I left and we gave her ivermectin. That was like 10 days ago. I did a fecal as soon as I got her home because her poo was loose. And they are higher now than when I left. Her eyelids look worse too.

What should I do, give her cydectin? Is that what's in the quest horse wormer? We are going to run to the feed store to pick some up right now. I also happen to have some kind of goat wormer, not labeled, they are big yellow pills. Would these be better? And I have safeguard.

Being newer to goats, I've not had worm problems so I've not kept up with info on wormers as well.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ivermecting only hits on stage of larve and it's why wide spread resistance for Ivermectin happened, using it to worm for worms it really never was supposed to kill, at whaco dosages to boot 

Yes you need to use the cattle pouron cydectin, 1cc per 22 pounds and since you haven't been paying attention...being new doesn't mean your goats don't have worms, it means that you just haven't lost any yet, and you will if you don't worm with Cydectin or Levamisole. Bite the bullet and get the Cydectin, use it, then use it again in 10 days and then again in 10 days to break the cycle of the adult blood sucking worms you don't see in fecals. Make sure after you worm everybody you keep them out of their barns and pastures for 12 hours, or they will simply poop out the eggs and larve into the enviornment for them to pick it up quickly again. Using a worm pen and worming like we do...before breeding, 100 days bred, day of kidding and dealing with your copper defficency and high iron amounts, you won't be having worm problems. Also make sure your kids are on cocci treatment, 3, 6, 8 and 12 weeks old, and continue every 3 weeks until the kids are 8 months and/or are eating enough of a meat goat pellet with cocci meds in it (usually means a 30 pound goat has to be eating 1 pound a day).

Have you picked up your buckling yet? vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I know it doesn't mean I don't have worms, but they have been very few. I have wormed here and there a couple times, keeping an eye on it. But there has been nothing at all major until now. I do fecals and will see like 1 or 2 eggs, except for Jodi here.

Can I not use the quest? Do they have the pour on not in such big containers? I had looked at it online and it was huge and expensive, I just have a few goats.

Yes, I picked up the buckling last night, he is doing great. He's beautiful. I planned to post about him but now I'm sidetracked. I got a couple pictures, boy he _is_ long.

I did have one question about him. I noticed he kind of makes a grindy noise with his teeth? I can't really see back in there to see what his teeth look like in the back, fronts seemed normal. What do you think?

I actually slept in the barn with him last night. :blush2 I don't have any other little ones and I didn't want him to get cold, we had a cold snap. Also I hadn't thought of raccoons until someone posted about it and his pen was not raccoon proof, and I didn't have time to figure something else out for him. I have it fixed up for him tonight though, those roosters crow at like 3 am.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Grinding teeth is nearly always from pain. Make sure his milk is warm until you slowly get him used to colder milk if that is what you are feeding him. He was used to as much warm milk as he wanted 4 times a day still, although he can move to 3 with no problems as large as he is. Make sure it's grocery store milk if you aren't pasteurising your goats milk. Of course milk replacer will cause him an upset tummy. He is due wednesday for worming and also for 5 more days of cocci meds.

If you haven't read it yet, read the article From Birth to Kidding in goatkeeping101, even though you have a buckling it's pretty similar.

On the Quest, I don't use it but pretty sure Kaye has put up the dosages on goatkeeping 101. Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Aw, poor guy. He doesn't act like he is in pain, been bouncing around. But, Laura did say that the babies had some loose stool yesterday when I picked him up. She thought she might have overheated the milk. Last night he pooped and it was berries, with mucus. This morning he had some loose poo. I was out with him a while just now, he got his feet trimmed, but he didn't go while I was out there, his behind didn't look dirty though. He only did the tooth grinding once the whole time. Yes, I am warming the milk, putting the bottle in hot water until well warmed. I gave him a little probios last night when I got him home.

I will get him wormed tomorrow. What type of wormer should I use?

I taped Jodi and it says 105 lbs. So I gave her just over a cc of the quest going by whats in goatkeeping 101.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Any reason running a fecal before worming wouldn't be a good idea? His eyes are pink.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

just to tos sin some info if it helps- yes, Ive been pasteurizing everything. did move them to three times a day a couple of days back. the soft stools just started yesterday morning. I gave probios to all three yesterday afternoon. started mine on sulmet last night. The night before it started I had pasteurized and it came to a simmer, which was my fault for getting distracted, so I dont know if that might have affected it. Looks like Dora was in heat yesterday, and shes stressed from weaning the buckling and its mostly her milk they are getting, with a little whole grocery store stuff when I'm low, maybe a quarter to 1/3 . . .but my best guess is its potentially cocci. Figure even if it is one of the other things its safer to treat for it then assume its something innocuous and damage the baby. Ashley, did you check his stool for eggs? I assume mine will also have whatever your guy does since they've been together all week.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

No I sure haven't. I haven't caught him pooing since this morning. I will plan to do it tomorrow morning.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Ashley have you read this??? make sure your dealing with barberpole
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,10.0.html


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Ashley said:


> Any reason running a fecal before worming wouldn't be a good idea? His eyes are pink.


yes there is because moving him with stress and all you need to worm and treat for cocci now.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And adult mama worms will suck his blood and kill him or ruin him way before they lay eggs to reproduce. Prevention in kids is key and down here sulmet isn't going to do anything, and you both have super worms and super cocci from my herd now. Corid. And I am simply not a fan of paste wormers, there is no way you can dose them correctly. Bite the bullet and buy the cattle pouron, share it with someone or keep it in the fridge and use it for the next 4 years.

Mucous in the poop out here is tapes. A kid full of tapes will grind his teeth in pain and they also can exhibit signs of entero. Vicki


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

ok, so what would use use for these little guys if its tapes? Santa Ana isnt much bigger than a newt, and shes only 2 weeks old?


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

So, should I use safeguard for him then? I haven't seen any actual tape segments.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Laura are you seeing mucosy poop in her? She is to young to have tapes even showing. Huge difference between 6 weeks and 2 weeks  Ashley Valbazen is a better choice, but yes you can use Safeguard and the Cydectin at the same time. Run a fecal on him and see what you see. Without a chambered slide, seeing an egg or 3 is really pretty meaningless unless you can multiply the slide out to get numbers telling you how many eggs. Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Ok, I did a fecal just now. I didn't actually see any worm eggs, but tons of coccidia. Is it common to have so many? I mean like 20 in one view? Would this cause the mucus? I didn't see tapeworm eggs and haven't seen segments in his poo. But very thick mucus.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Of course, and like every post on this issue, and my health sheet, you always put on cocci meds and worm incoming stock. Period. The normal low levels all stock has that is taken care of with prevention meds and cleanliness (Laura saw the kid pens) those numbers multiply hugely as the kids or adult does are stressed.

You need to get a chambered slide, 20 on slide like you use could mean 20 eggs or 2000 eggs, you don't know. Vicki

Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

you need to worm him for tapes you may or may not see any signs. you also need to treat for cocci if you see that many I treat regardless when bringing in or moving kids.as they tend to just flare up. Stress brings this on and moving is stress


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

oops Vicki said it all.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

This buckling needs to be TREATED for coccidia. period. Use Corid (at the treatment levels given in Goats 101 for 5 days) or go to the vet's and get Albon to KILL the coccidia.
Right now, I don't have the dose for Albon....Sondra, you got time to look it up???

Quit playing with him and get him treated. Too nice a buck kid to ruin.

Valbazen for the tapes...if that's what he's got...and unless you know what you're looking for in terms of tape "packets" then the Valbazen won't hurt him if he doesn't. 1cc/10#'s.
Kaye


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Hey now, I just got him less than 48 hours ago. I'm making sure what to do before I do it. I'm getting him wormed today (which is what Vicki originally said he was scheduled for) and I'll have to get the corid, I don't have any on hand, I've never used it.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Perhaps after this crisis is over as a new person who purchased a new buckling, you could give us better ways of making sure that we prepare new customers to have on hand what is needed.

I have the herd health sheet on goatkeeping 101, there is hundreds of posts on cocci and worms and prevention in kids and how important prevention is in all goats who are moved...I really don't know what more I can do...it does make those of us who answer questions all the time crazy when something this simple is overlooked.

Not having your corid or wormer on hand and using it 48 hours ago is a little like having a baby and not buying diapers. It's that important. Vicki


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

I think it's like having a baby and no food to give it ....... without either they die.


Worming and coccidia prevention has been gone over many times. Anyone who has been here a months knows that . Read goatkeeping 101 . The girls have collected all of these things because they are so very important . 


Do not take either lightly , without prevention and dewormings the buckling will die or grow to be a weedy poor looking buck. Genetics can only do so much the rest is up to you.

Patty

We need pictures of your new boy


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I know it can sometimes be difficult to get things through my thick skull, but, in my defense, you said that he would need whatever I'm using for worms and cocci at 6 weeks old. In my mind I figured this is cocci prevention, not treatment. 
I'll be happy to run and get what he needs tomorrow as soon as I can.

Realize that the baby goats I raised last spring (and that was before I knew about this place and had only had goats for like 3 months), I didn't give them a _thing_, for worms or cocci until my doe was like 9 months old, she got some wormer for the first time, she really looked fine, but I thought her lids looked a little pale and I was planning to breed her. These guys grew like weeds, overtaking the 10 lb per month minimum and are now very healthy animals. So I'd never dealt with Cocci before at all. I have few goats and lots of room, they don't graze grass, just hay that is up off the ground or browse, well some tall grass they grab here and there on their walks, and I think that goes a huge way in preventing problems. My horses only get wormed twice a year while many worm much more often. They have enough room that they don't eat anywhere near where they poo.

For you guys, giving all these drugs is just normal, to me it's very foreign. Before this year, the only "medicine" I ever used was a little wormer for the horses (and recently the goats) and we've got all kinds of critters. I've raised baby chicks with unmedicated feed for years without a problem etc. and my animals just extremely rarely sick, so I never use antibiotics for them or anything.

Anyway, we'll get the corid tomorrow. And yes, I've been wanting to post pics! I got some yesterday, but they didn't do him justice.


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Kids and adults when stressed can have a problem with coccidia .. Just file that in the back of your head.

Once the damage is done by coccidia it cannot be reversed. Thats why its so important to treat every 3 weeks.

Patty


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yes, that much I do know, I've seen cocci damaged kids. There is a lady near Yellville that I first went to look at goats to buy. Oh my, she had CAE and CL in her herd, and lots of little dwarf looking babies, I later learned they had cocci and that's why they were little. Yikes. Thankfully I knew to ask about CL and CAE and swiftly left.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Ashley 
One thing (please don't think I am bashing you) I don't think you understand abt cocci, so I will explain a bit, knowing full well I am not the best teacher in the world. Very simply it is this, ALL GOATS have cocci it is not something like worms that they aquire. As a general rule adults don't have a problem with it and have become somewhat immuned to them. However kids haven't built up that immunity so this is why we use preventative measures. Starting very very early in their little lives. It you have an outbreak of cocci then you use treatment and then back on preventative every 21 days until abt 9 mo old.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

You are fine, I know you aren't bashing me.

I did not know it was different than worms in that way, how do they get it, born with it?

And why were my babies last year unaffected?


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## Guest (May 1, 2008)

Ashley said:


> And why were my babies last year unaffected?


How do you know this? Since you are sooooo new perhaps with your untrained eye you are not able to see what is really going on in your herd.

Honestly, you couldn't get a better start than with Vicki's animals or her aftercare. Consider yourself lucky to have her proven genetics and excellent information. Don't mess up a good thing. 

Sara


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I thought cocci caused stunted growth? I may be newer to goats, but I'm not blind.  Also, when the vet was out here recently, he did comment on how healthy my goats are. 

Heck, I have some pictures of them.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Here they are, they were not quite 2 months I believe.










Here is "Baby Girl" at almost 4 months.










And at just over 9 months, by her dam. I was getting big belly pictures.










And here is "Pepe", her brother at just over 11 months. This is a picture the buyer sent me later. He looks so funny, and whizzing to boot.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ashley my kids here have no worms on fecal and not one occyst...why? Because they haven't been stressed with a move. They also aren't in pens where adult goats have lived so they can't pick up cocci and worms. Obviously your boy is stressed from the move. That is the difference. Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Ok that's what I thought, but Sondra said they don't pick them up like worms?

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just a little confused by that.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Told you I was no expert at discribing what I meant to say. What I was trying to say is that all goats have cocci even adults tho it doesn't affect and kill adults as a general rule. But by the same token yes if you have an out break of cocci or if put in pens with adults then they do pick them up from contamination also. What I was trying but not successful to point out is that moving and stress etc etc etc makes the cocci rear their ugly heads especially in kids. Which is what you are seeing now.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Ok, yea that makes sense, much like worms. They all have them, but it's when they get out of control there is a problem, and stress feeds that.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Me too, confused. I didnt realize they could be born by cocci.

I'm feeling pretty bad, since he was here for a week and just started -all three of them- with this that day. I too went by start treating per 101, and was told hed already had what he would need before I picked him up. I kept them all in a seperate area and they didnt go out in the pasture with any other goats and had put down fresh straw in the shed they stayed in. Granted I didnt change my shoes or wash my hands between groups, so its a loose kinda quarrantine, but I was trying to avoid exposing them to anything new.

OK the birth to kidding thread says this:
_At day 20, start on Cocci prevention. Use Corid or your sulfa, dosages in goatkeeping 101 on dairygoatinfo.com once a day for 5 days then 
repeat every 20 days until well grown and on meat goat pellets that contain their cocci med (decoquinate, rumensin, lasalocid, bovatec).
Day 20 Worm with Valbazen 1cc per 10lbs (this is for tapes) Important note is that my
babies are not in pens frequented by adults; so adult worms aren't a worry for me until my kids are older. If your babies are in with adults than you will have to worm them with your adult wormer, here Cydectin. Worming kids every 3 weeks until weaned and well grown is the best prevention, along with cocci, giving you healthy, robust kids that can be bred their first year. Do not wait for symptoms of cocci or worms and then use treatment, think prevention always._

Based on what Vicki mentioned above about letting people know about moving kids stressing them- well, is there a hard and fast kinda thing that if youre picking up kids like we did, that you start the cocci treatmetn earlier? I have the sulmet and have been using it- it even say sin there "or your sulfa". is coris so much better that we need to highlight that in the post? Honestly, I thought that sulfa was just as effective, I dont get it why Corid is better- and how do we know that? If I had known in advance, I'd have had that on hand, not just the sulmet which I'm familiar with and have used effectively in the past.

So yea, weve both been here awhile, but no, this hasnt been clear to me before_ and Ive read the Mgmt thread through, heck I have it printed off and thought I was prepared based on it. Theres no way Id have realized from my reading that tapes would be an issue if they werent with adults, and they werent.

I'm not griping here- just letting you know that based on what Id read in that Mgmt 101 thread and the way I interpreted it, the things mentioned in this thread- that we should start cocci prevention earlier than the times mentioned on kids tha thave been moved, that corrid is better, that 6 wk old kids can have tapes even if they arent with the adults- just werent obvious to me to expect. I figure sharing that is going to help what Vicki said she'd like to do - help people prepare better. My guess is that the Mgmt thread is based on what vicki does and really highlights what a breeder does to home raised kids- and that this situation brings to light that when you are bringing kids in from somewhere else there may need to be a management difference. My personal past experience with goats is fine in someways, but didnt prepare me to recognize this until I got to this point in the thread and had this experience.

The kid was with me until Monday evening, the loose stools started Monday morning, and Ashley just walked into it when she picked him up. So shes really right defending herself, and I'll jump in there too and say its not her fault. I thought I was doing OK by the directions I had from the mgmt thread, and was told he'd gotten his first cocci treatment at Vickis and wouldnt need anything until after she picked him up. So, lets please use this experience to figure out what we can suggest to people who are moving kids so they dont go through this too... its really an awful feeling thinking that I could have done something different to have prevented it, and I didnt know that before. I dont want anyone else to feel this way.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Laura, I really don't want you to feel bad! I really appreciated you picking him up for me so much! And I know I would have been nervous keeping someone elses animal (especially a baby) like that! You did a great job, did what you (and I) knew best to do, and he's gonna be just fine. He's happy as a lark, bouncing around and having a good time.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

BTW, what kind of milk withdrawel period do y'all normally use on the moxidectin? Surely it's not the 56 days the info in 101 says :O


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

sulmet as a general rule is a 12 % solution 
Demethox 40% is better choice both of these are sulfa drugs 
Corid is what Vicki has started using last year as Demethox wasn't working here. I believe. and is a different type drug (which I can't remember what it is)

Anytime any new goat comes here they are auto treated with cocci meds and wormed just because of moving.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I knew I had another question. What's the dose for the Corid, do I go by the label?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,65.0.html


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes the management sheet is what I do with my stock. So choosing a sulfa or deccox M everyday in the milk or a sulfa is up to you and your fecals. But when you buy my stock you are stuck with my resistance, and yes Corid is that much better. Sulfa is more broad spectrum, Corid/Amprolium is all about cocci. You also won't be able to use Safeguard or Ivermectin for blood sucking worms.

All new stock should be quaranteened, should be wormed, should be on cocci prevention if over 20 days old, even if you are redoing what was just done at the farm. Vaccinations then start. 

And yes, the mucous is likely not tapes, now that we know, it's sloughed intestine that if it isn't stopped immediatly with corid and banamine to stop this inflammation the kid will then start passing blood. Vicki

It's just frustrating to think you are being so clear and then to have this happen after the kids are picked up. Especially these kids moving into the second worse place you can live and raise cocci and worms...hmmm I mean goats  Vicki


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

_It's just frustrating to think you are being so clear and then to have this happen after the kids are picked up. _

I'm sorry I dont want you to be frustrated. I thought it was clear too. I just didnt get that its different from what the thread says because I was picking a kid up from someone else. I figured if I pointed out why I thought that this was OK, maybe we could find a way to prevent other people from going through the same thing. Honest, this is upsetting and humiliating enough. To have to say it all out loud here isnt exactly fun. But unless I explain how I interpreted that mgmt thread we wont find a way to prevent this in the future. Maybe just a line in the Mgmt thread that is referenced that says to start all cocci and worming treatment as soon as you get them home would help? Heck, if I'd known that I would have brough stuff with me and started it when I picked them up. Just like I normally do for any other goat I've ever brought home. I will in the future, that's for sure.

If Ive introduced "super cocci", then should i give my whole herd a round of prevention with Corid so they have some support as they adjust to the new strains I just introduced? Even though the babies are in the seperate stall area, they are close by, and I'd bet Ive walked the stuff into their pens and the flys might be spreading it too.


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## Guest (May 1, 2008)

I am going to be blunt. This topic is getting ridiculous. :crazy

BOTH of you (Ashley & LMonty) have been on this forum for several months. I can't count how many times we post to deworm and cocci treat ALL incoming stock! The information is here IF you pay attention enough to read it.

Stop the blame game. Neither of you did what you should have done. Quit blaming it on Vicki or her management information that she was so kind enough to type up and put in GK101. Take responsibility, deworm and cocci treat your kids and move on. It's really that simple.

Enjoy your new kids!

Sara


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I will change the management sheet.

And cocci is cocci, I was teasing about the super cocci because of our area, you two should have some reprieve with your freezes we don't.

You have to set your management yourself, here my goats are on prevention, religiously doled out prevention. When I bring in a goat I am religious about treatment....and I have written about this over and over, that is the frustrating part for me.

Ok back to the original question...Ashley did you do a fecal after worming your doe with the HC worms and do you have less eggs? Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I was going to this morning, but when she finally pooed the chickens got to it first and demolished it. Her poo is nice pellets now though. I will try and get some later today. 

I'd almost forgotten about her worms with the whole deal with the buck :lol .


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