# Breech Kids



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

So, 4 out of 6 does kidded text book bred by two different bucks. The other two does both had breech kids and one had a second kid with a leg up around it's neck. That was terrible... in five years have never had to reposition kids till today. Now momma doesn't want them, our was a very hard birth. Anyways back to my question... these two does were bred by the same buck, he was a yearling so first time used. Can the buck have caused this our was it just coincidence that my two problems were the same buck?


----------



## ksalvagno (Jul 8, 2011)

I would suspect just coincidence. Probably just your time. Congrats on all the kids and successfully taking care of the dystocias.


----------



## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Wow...that is quite the contortion. Kudos for setting it right! 
L


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I guess we've all had our time for situations like that. Glad you were able to pull them through (literally, LOL). I had a year like that where almost every birth was complicated.


----------



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I had a lot of dystocias with the Boers, no where near as many with the dairy. Not sure why, same feed, same exercise, same everything but type. 

I had a lot of big headed bucks this year, but all were in the correct position.

Good saves on your kids! Around his neck? Wow, a caprine breakdancer?


----------



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

I've tried to post like three times....when I get to real computer and not my phone I'll give an update. Any ideas doe to get their mom to take them?


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

If she has her mind set to it, I'm guessing she won't, just depends how stubborn she's being I guess. I would hold her for them to nurse several times a day until one of you caves. I'm guessing you are going to have bottle babies.


----------



## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

I have one doe, who is a good milker, good personality, very friendly. But she has never allowed her kids to nurse, it is just her way. Her daughters are excellent mothers and nurse and guard their kids. Since she mostly has does, it is not so bad, that way they are really bonded to me. She cleans them up, and that is the end of her motherly affection. She is now 6, so I don't expect that she will change.
Perhaps you have one like that too. It isn't so bad, at least it is easier to wean bottle kids than the nursing ones. I have a 10 month old still nursing... I keep thinking, she is weaned and mama is dry, then I catch her nursing again. I have to do this soon, both mother and daughter are about to deliver. Bottle is sometimes easier!


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I wonder what your thought process is that a buck could have anything at all to do with the position of kids in the uterus at birthing? A buck can get known for having small kids (my buck GE had small kids which is great considering the multiples Nubian have, but they were mighty a are big girls once grown). On the same hand a LaMancha buck I owned Meho, you could never breed him to anything small, his kids were easily 12 pounds even with twins. So birth size, of course, but not position in the uterus.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Can't an extra large kid interfere with normal presentation? With most of my does, even as first fresheners they will spit out ten pounders no problem, but I did have a few giant headed kids that presented head first, legs back. I assumed it was because they were so big there was no room for their feet to easily slide through with the head.


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I actually kind of like breech kids....no worrying about getting that head right!


----------



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Vicki, I had none lol. It's the only thing that links the two does that had breech kids. It didn't seem likely to me but thought I'd ask. 
This doe... I don't know what to do with her lol. I think her kidding was hard enough she just doesn't know what happened. 
Now I'm dealing with udder problems. Right side is fine except for kinda sore. She has another kid in the pen that latches on for dear life. Left side... teat is swollen, red, and kinda hard. There is no clumpy milk or red or pink or stinky etc. The teat is not hot either. Just very sore I'm guessing by her reaction to me trying to milk it. I haven't tested anything yet. I just.... am so over this mess. I know bad attitude, but I've been spoiled! Never had a doe with so many problems.


----------



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Well, I walked into the barn this morning to a doe in labor. I left her to get moving on her own while I put out hay for the goats and fed the dogs. I was just getting ready to go in to feed dog group #2 when I heard Zalika scream. Down I went to find Zalika in full labor. All well and good, but her rear end was pressed firmly against the stall door, pushing the kid back in. I dragged her to her feet and got her to a better area and then checked the kid.....BREECH! All I saw was a tail and 2 hock points. I got the legs out and helped her get this monster out. He is fine......of course its a buck. His little sister followed soon after in the proper position.

This is my first breech kid in years! I know I should have posted a knock on wood when I mentioned the breeches in Boers but very few in the dairy.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Agree Tracy, breech is fine here also....now frank breech with just a tail, not so much  Vicki


----------



## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

I today too had my most complex kidding in 5 years. Triplets, the first was head first with legs under the body, he came out fairly easily, the next 2 I had to go in and get out, the second male was breech the female and by far the largest of the 3 was positioned normally apart from the left leg bent back, which I got forward and then pulled her out. This is half an hour after another does gave me twins. This is the first year I have given BOSE and it does seem to be doing its job.
The 2 males of the triplets are on their feet but do not seem to have the suckle reflex but their sister has no problems at all.


----------



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

I tell you... can't even do a post right! Even at a keyboard, I can't type this out. So here is the long and short of it. 
Doe had slow labor, she's an FF, they sometimes take some time to get things all into position. Spent most of the morning waiting for her to lay down and push. 
Finally get to that point and she is up and down etc. Ok, she gets 15-30 minutes. When she laid down to push I noticed that it wasn't productive. There was no protrusion
like there was a bubbles/baby on the way out. Ok.. gloved up and went in. Felt a bony "elbow" great, felt around and found another, felt around found a tail. Ok, so we know
it's breech with legs tucked up under. The problem, the kid is going nowhere. I thought she just needed some help so tried to help get kid out, nothing, it was wedge tight. 
Took forever being she was a FF and such, but finally got my hand in good enough to find that the kid's hooves were hooked on the pelvis. So every time she pushed, she just pushed the kid into her pelvis. 
Worked and worked and worked and finally got the kid pushed back in enough to unhook a leg and get it straight. Then she started pushing... got the kid back in, other hoof untucked, and finally got two back legs out. 
At this point I was crying, doe was just done and in shock. I thought the kid was dead (cold legs, limp) so I let mom and myself rest a bit. Pretty soon those little legs start kicking for all they are worth! Hurry get the kid out, 
pretty doeling. Not too large, but plenty big. Mom wanted nothing to do with her. Second doeling followed about 5 minutes later. Mom just went and stood by the fence. Tried to get her to clean them and nurse them but she wanted no part. 
She wouldn't even lick me. Tried several more times that day and later to get her to take them but she wanted no part. I did all the normal after care for the doe. Milked her, started her on some Pen, etc. 
A few days later, she developed what I think is mastitis. Sent off a sample to the lab, should hear back on Monday on that. 
In the mean time, momma doe has "adopted" a buck kid from another set of triplets I had. The problem is she tries to mother him, but won't let him nurse. However, he latches on and then she drags him around. Long story short, her teats are raw. I've seperated her from him (was gone for a couple days and someone else was doing chores) so I'm hoping that they start to heal. She also apparently doesn't have room in her udder for the milk she makes. She is giving about a quart twice a day but at milking is full tight and leaking. Again, was gone a couple days so just now finding this out. (Will be milking her more often now) 
Last but not least, she is dropping condition terrible. I don't know why. She's on pen, wormed her, etc. All the normal after care. I can't up her feed because I don't want her making more milk than she already is. 
I just... I'm at that point where you just want to give up. I'm not going to... you can't do that when you have animals, just so frustrater/stressed with her. She is just one problem after another and it's wearing on me.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Oh, Rachel that does sound like an ordeal. As a livestock manager, you can decide how much is enough care when an animal is still going downhill after you've done so much.


----------



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Agree Tracy, breech is fine here also....now frank breech with just a tail, not so much  Vicki


Haha. Vicki. That is just what I found a few days ago. Just a tail but it took me a minute to figure it out because that tail was upside down as well. Thankfully she was a triplet so not too big, and came out fine after digging out her back feet.

Sure sorry Rachel to hear about your frusterating experience with your doe. Hope things look up for you both.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I understand, but if you just push through, things will get better! Just gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps.  It sounds like she had a rough time and just may need some time to recover. I don't think it would be too much of a problem upping her feed, especially with the more frequent milkings. If she's a saanen, she's gonna milk whether you want her to or not.  Hopefully she gains some capacity and the rest of her problems get better soon!


----------



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

She's a Sable, so close enough, lol. 
I know it will get better, I just needed to share with people who understand, lol. 
Would you guys cull her based on this year's experiences, or give her another chance? We like the goat, I just don't want to go through a repeat of this year.


----------



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

I would take more time to decide. Since she just kidded and think you said was a yearling and possibly has mastitis and not feeling well, could really affect her milk output at this point. If you like her in general maybe give her a pass for a month or two and judge her then. On question of upping her feed, depends on what her condition point is and how much you are already feeding I would say. Is this a doe you bought or raised on your place?


----------



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

She was bought as a bottle baby, she's two years now. She's always been a smaller more petite doe, behind the other does I got from the same breeder, so I left her a dry yearling, and then bred her. She is on free choice alfalfa and gets grain on the milk stand twice a day at milkings.


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

We like breech births as well. Just ready to wipe that face clean and possibly swing it to clear any inhaled mucous.

We have a decent sized herd of Boers (about 40 does, sometimes more) and really no higher number of breeches with them than the Saanens, percentage-wise. The Boers can tend to have more multiples (triplets very common) and you have to worry about the kid tangle, but gee it is so nice to go in on a Boer - like a swimming pool in there compared to the dairy breeds  And we don't get huge heads on the Boer goats - they are shaped better than those wide triangular heads on the Saanens (especially big single buck kids!) Big, with lots of bone, yes, but no real notable problems.

I think that it is coincidence.


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

As for "should she stay or should she go", depends on whether you think she is nice enough and how much work to fix that mastitis etc. If you normally bottle raise then her mothering instinct is not that big of a deal. If you want to dam raise, then this could be a problem next year as well. BTW< if she has mastitis, you really don't want to have her kids nurse, especially the doe.

And since she has a daughter (that is hopefully an improvement on her dam) perhaps that will influence your decision?


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

For me, no, if I liked her I wouldn't cull her.


----------



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

I like her as a friend, pet etc, she is an ok goat. Her udder is pretty well attached, she's always been a more petite doe, and I worry if I breed her again she will have the same problem. However, I don't want to sell her as a pet and someone breed her who doesn't have a clue and then they have a real mess. 

As a side note, I got the milk sample results back today, and all the samples I sent in came back with NO GROWTH! So, that is good news, and a mark taken off her, lol. At this point, I just have to get her teats healed up. 
The right one, is definitely getting better, the left one... I'm working on it.

Anyone have any good rememdies for helping a raw/scabbed over teat heal? It's in pretty rough shape.


----------



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

*Breech Kids / Problem Doe * Update**

Just a quick update. The scabs are starting to come off of her teats. The left one is still pretty sore /cracked etc, but where the scabs are coming off there is healthy skin underneath. The right one, all we have left is a few scabs/cracks around the top of the teat where it joins the udder. Otherwise, it's pretty well scab free. Milking is still a three ring circus, but it's better than when we started. Condition wise she is doing ok. I've upped her calories a little without too much increase in output. Enough that it's manageable. Soon as these teats get healed, I think we'll be in good shape. And will have a better time on the milk stand lol. 
For anyone wondering I've been treating her with bacitracin and a homemade salve I make. I also spray her real good with my chlorhex that I use after milking the does. I will skip the salve one milking if it seems they are too soft/moist also. I don't know if it's the right way, but it seems to be working, so that's a good thing


----------



## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

We had a nasty teat injury here last year- if you dig you will find a thread on it. We soaked the injured teat twice daily in warm epsom salt solution. I think it made a difference.


----------



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

glad she is improving Rachel. Headaches are such a Headache!! We have a yearling that freshened in Jan that still has to have a leg tied back because she is a kicker! Worst I have ever had. such a headache. she is very slowly improving with her attitude. the other yearling we are milking currently has lifted a leg about 3 times in the past month if that. they are all so different.


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

We had a second freshener get chapped/raw teats about the second day. We hand milk and the other goats have all been fine with the teat dip (it has emollients in it).

My DD used Caprine Beings Better Body Butter. Worked great! Old skin would flake off when we applied the cream and when we were done milking we would put a little more on - not greasy and dirt wasn't sticking to it either.  Thanks Tammy!


----------



## hurvinek2010 (May 29, 2010)

My first goat was one problem after another. Her pregnancy was one big ordeal. She would not eat, looked like from concentration camp. I kept her on Ensure and multiple expensive useless vet visits. She looked like she wanted to die, hanging her head, moaning, grinding teeth. The vet didn't believe she was pregnant, I could feel the kids kicking. My first experience with kidding, 3 hoofs sticking out. I was not ready to "go in", I just pushed it all back in, and picked her hind legs and held her with her butt in the air. On second try a tiny buck came out the right way, followed by even smaller girl. the buck was gone before I had a chance to clean him up, but the girl pulled through. One of her nubian ear was bent, her bowed legs straightened, but her ear didn't. Mede her look impish, and an imp she was. I made a deal with momma, I would never bread her again, but I would never call a vet for her ever again either. She seemed satisfied with the deal. She was a good mom, and then she enjoyed her privileges for the rest of her life. She died this January. She died so quick, there was no time to call the vet. I didn't cull her, I liked her, she was my first, after all. I gave away her daughter to people that promised not to bread or eat her.
So, if this doesn't exactly apply to previous post, sorry, it was on my mind, I needed to unload. That was my time, when I wanted to give up, but I am glad I didn't. Olga


----------



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Thank you for sharing! 
I am pleased to report that I can now sit down( as of yesterday) and milk her just as normal as any other goat. 
It's been a long few weeks, and I appreciate all the help and encouragement from you guys, thanks!


----------

