# Buck pictures



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Something has been puzzling me for a while now. Why do breeders, especially those with big farms and top notch breeding and animals, not show pictures of their bucks on their web sites? They have the bucks names, somtimes pedigrees and pictures of their dam, granddams and daughters, but not of the buck.

I totally understand the female members of the bucks family, very important. But I want to see the buck himself, maybe his sire. I want to compare and see what traits seem to be passed from the male side and from the female side for a complete picture.

I understand that some common looking buck throw picture perfect kids while some champion bucks throw poor kids, but seeing the animal would help me in determining if his son or daughter will fit into my herd. :down


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## LaManchaLady (Feb 5, 2011)

Im not real sure of that either Sully. I have always wanted to see photos of the bucks too


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Sully, 

it seems that when you get to advanced breeding , you really do use the buck based on his pedigree and dam quality. Daughter pictures to me would be satisfactory, especially if there is a common trait in them, such as udder quality, conformation, etc to suggest the buck is throwing a certain type out of those breedings. 

There are some good posts to search with Vicki's explanation on the importance (or lack of) appraisals in bucks, etc. While I like the buck himself to be showing the trains I am looking for, I am after him throwing those traits in off springs. Very surprisingly, my most used sire this year looks posty and narrow in the rump - he threw the best rumps yet and the doelings are nicely angular in their rear legs. Lots to learn  I wonder if the breeders just choose not to post the photo to draw focus on the genetic potential instead of the looks. 

Jana


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

A buck shouldn't even be registered if he doesn't show you basic conformation that you want to see in your does. But past general appearance dairy character, body capacity....we are raising dairy goats, and with 35 points out of 100 mammary, other than GE who has a beautiful udder  what can a buck really show you that isn't seen from his dam and daughters? Now those who show their bucks or apparise them, yeah there isn't a lot of double talk you could give for not snapping photos during appraisal or at a show of the buck in his show clothes. Except the more well known you are the more hectic shows are, and appraisal is even more so, plus once you get through the milkers and juniors your just happy the bucks stand for the appraisal to fondle their jewels! 

And ask, if something is a deal breaker for you, than ask. I do have candid photos of my boys that in the end I look worse in than they do...so yes I will forward them, but I also ask you not to share them. Vicki


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I guess I spent too long breeding horses, I want to see the sire of the does or the buck I buy. I guess I'm just nosy, and want to see my future kids grandsire!


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Sometimes it is just because bucks are never in their show clothes. I do not clip my bucks, even for appraisal, so like Vicki, I only share candid photos and request they not be shared. I seldom remember that people may want to see pictures of them when they aren't in rut, and I am not taking pictures of my boys in rut! This May we will take a few to a buck show, and we really will try to remember to take their pictures at the show...I hope!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

:yeahthat, it would be why Theoden's pics are not on our site. Or Lucius. Theoden was in full blown rut on photo day. Lucius was not mature enough to even put on there and was in a funny buck growth stage. The only two bucks you see on our site is Khan (G-man) and Tallis. Though I did nothing to Tallis. None of our boys are old enough to have a daughter pic w/udder shot so that was left off altogether.
Tam


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Because I am small, I can take tons of pictures of my goats, and I do. Goats, dogs, horses, my computer is FULL of animal pictures. If I had more than what I have, I probably wouldn't have the time to be so photo crazy!

I guess I can't expect everyone to be camera freaks and have a ton of pictures hanging around. I can understand not wanting rut pictures, ugh!


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Part of the reason is because some breeders like to show what the dams, daughter, etc. look like. Another reason is: Take the famous buck Sodium Oaks Sasin. He was a short buck with a huge horn spread and ugly. But......he sure produced some nice daughters and had a profound impact on the American Alpines.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

I have pics of my bucks on my website and so do most breeders whom I would purchase from, but they typically also show the dam or offspring to show what he can produce.


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

I almost posted this exact same question! lol I understand dog shows, registries, conformation, faults ect. ect. because I grew up around that and have always had at least one well bred canine lounging around the house.....Goats on the other hand I feel clueless! lol Was browsing sites and couldn't figure out why on earth I couldn't find buck pictures, just female relatives on many sites....thanks for explaining 

Though I must say, the breeding based on strictly pedigree is still hard to wrap my mind around..... in dogs some of the worst outcomes I've seen have been breeders who breed Champion to Champion, just because they were champions.....and got some horrible pups..... And I've seen people use a dog I would have neutered, strictly due to an amazing pedigree and had horrible outcomes....only to rebreed the same female to a more correct sibling of the previous dog with much better results....

So, in goats I'm assuming things are just totally different? Is it common for a buck with a stellar pedigree to produce fabulous offspring even if he himself has many faults or is ugly?

Guess one upside to goats....... if the results from a breeding are less than pleasing you have the option of sending them out as strictly home milkers with no registration or you can eat them


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No it's much more about, a stellar buck has been bred to a great deal more animals, so we have some idea what he may throw. His dam has qualites we want, and has daughters also and even some, sons. Udder is so heritable, with so much emphasis put on it, and bucks not having one, can use see where it's different than a mammal you show that doesn't carry a main part the adult female has to have.

But yes, make this a big enough deal and even I would put better photos of the boys up on the website  All of this is always customer driven. Vicki


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Sasin was also CAE positive wasn't he, Bernice? I remember hearing he was quite crippled up.

I put up buck pictures IF I have a good one. But as you breed for more and more years, bucks are less important to show than the does are....sooo, often times they go years (or forever) without being clipped or fitted out. I may haul them all out to a buck show this year if I get the motivation  I like the buck show idea -- no udders, no razoring, no milking....ahhhhh!

But, I don't necessarily care if I see a buck picture when I am buying goats.....I am essentially "buying" that buck's dam....so I am more interested in her, or his sisters and his offspring if he is older.


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Bucks. Half your herd (and I never discredit the pull and status that a doe has--but...).

Bucks are the Good-Will-Ambassadors of your herd. They are the extra layer of filling in the cake, the pleasant surprise when you think your herd is just sweet enough--put those bucks to work.

I cannot tell you how many kid orders have been placed (in the pre-internet decades---yes, sadly, I meant to say decades) by breeders and newbies alike who remember that massive, impressive, powerful buck that won at a show they attended. Bucks are the 'free advertising' and forgotten marketing tool of many. There have been a few bucks here in the northwest who were so well known in their day that they were the "face" of the herd--all you had to do was say their name, not their full name, just their name--like GUSTO (Nubian) or WAGIOM (Alpine), or PHOEBUS (Toggenburg), and WAHCONDA (yet another Alpine). These fellows were the promotional tool of many a great herd.

And, the counterpoint, which some have skirted around and others may mention is that some bucks of prominence over the decades have been "just plain GULY." There is no denying that--but if you have a great buck that can give you some extra umph in the publicity department... WHY NOT?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

:yeahthat Well Said Bill!


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah, I hear you, Bill. After seeing some of the bucks that won their GCH at shows last year -- I think we'll be dragging our boys out ;-)


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Thanks for explaining that..... not seeing buck pictures isn't a deal breaker for me.....was just curious as to why many websites didn't have pictures of them..

Also didn't really think about the buck literally being half of the herd.....very good point. 

I'm not into showing (but my daughter is interested)....at this point I just want good home milkers & some extra kids to send to freezer camp, so I am more interested in the female side of the family, and honestly on websites, most times I just skim through any buck pages....But when I'm killing time and I run out of pictures to look at, I go looking for more pics on the bucks page


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Just don't squat down next to them, Tracy.  (Yes, I had to go there, and another reason folks may not want to show bucks much! lol!)


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I've posted a picture of a buck I bought on this forum a while back, but wouldn't put it on a website if I had one because it isn't posed. This guy would be really hard to show or pose because he was dam raised and very skittish. I'd be more likely to photograph his dam when the breeder does appraisal or pictures of his daughters when they freshen this year. Then there is his son, who was bottle raised, but a gawky adolescent. Now, I might be able to get a nice posed photo of him, but I want to wait until he's out of rut and a bit more mature.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Well I intend to show some bucks this year to - in fact at the spring shows I may show more bucks than does. Lat year I finished my Nubian buck in 4 shows - 3 x GCH and 1x RGCH.

I did not plan on showing him at first but was asked to in order to make sanction at the first show and when he did so well I decide to take him to a couple of others. 

He was the only buck I showed last year but I have (I think) an even better Nubian buck plus a couple of real nice Alpines.

Since my herd will be on milk test I intend to prove the bucks (and does) that way and it is less stress at a show to show a bunch of bucks than worry about uddering up does.

Expect to see more bucks than does from Sunrise Farm at the local shows this year.

I also (as the Grumpy Old Buck states) want to get my bucks shown and out there so that people are aware of what I have and they can be used more (I have had them collected and also provide stud service) and proven faster.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I used to show my bucks many many years ago when I did show. They did extremely well, my weanling buck actually beat out all the adult bucks in the Alpine class! Both my boys back them were gorgeous, had killer bloodlines and threw awesome kids who did great in the ring and the bucket. That was way before computers were popular (early to mid 80's)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Driving 70 miles an hour down the interstate to get to a show I can't even breath at, with a buck I don't have daughters out of isn't happening  I do regret not showing GE when he was a 3 year old. Vicki


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I would show Tallis, G-man, and Lucius in a heart beat IF there was a close show. I would never show Theoden...he's still such a neandrathal! 
Tam


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Just put a pinch collar on him, Tammy. They don't expect them to be as well-behaved as the does anyhow. Heck I saw a buck get shown (and win!) with a pinch collar and a regular collar and rope with another handler standing behind them! He was absolutely WILD.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

The buck I have now hides behind me. He is a momma's boy for sure! The judge would have to play ring around the rosie to be able to look at him!


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

I have had my share of 'wild' or unruly bucks. Preference is to not have them. Many over the years have culled themselves on behavior and "inherited" behavior down to their daughters.

As for show ring presence, I too in my younger days took out a rare buck that was not collar friendly (and well experienced in leading). But, if a buck needs a pinch collar to be controlled in the ring my personal opinion is he has no business being IN the ring. Bucks are powerful animals--when something goes wrong, and it will just give it time, that is when people (and animals) get hurt. They are called accidents for a reason (not something we plan) but the even is something that can be avoided by leaving unruly (or even terrefied) animals at home. Far better that a buck not get a ribbon than someone get hurt. Not to mention what the judge potentially has to put up with in checking the animal for DQ's and/or reading tattoos.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Having a very small place, my bucks get handled daily, as much as the does do. My boys lead as good as, if not better than the does!

The place where they used to have a yearly buck show is about 10 miles from my house. I'm lucky for that one show! However, I only own a mini van now, and I'm not sure I want a full grown buck in the back seat.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Sully - sounds like you need to get a mini trailer to pull behind that minivan. There are some smaller trailers out there that it could pull or just put some panels on a little 4x8 landscape trailer.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

My boys are good natured. I like to have pics up of them cause they're important too, but MAN they go through much ugly stages than the does while growing! There's like 4 different bucks in each one. One day you come out to the barn and you're like, OH good, I'm glad you grew out of that!


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Yeah, I've noticed that about bucks...the ugly stages, that is. I sure wouldn't post pictures of them at certain ages. 
But I love my bucks and always look at buck pics on websites if they have them.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry Bill, your a guy...you know, that little thing called upper body strength! I think it's much better to have control of an animal, rather than not, especially a buck. Who knows how a buck is going to act around all those other bucks. Sure my boys at home stand like dogs on the end of their ropes, even with a doe in heat coming out of a trailer, but around other bucks...I guess all us gals just need a big ole strong man to show for us  LOL!


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Well Vicki... I'm sorry that you are sorry I'm a guy <G> (sometimes what we write isn't always what it comes across... LOL!). But as for strength, that is actually my point. I have a severely compromised disc in my back and two others that are "almost as bad" ... so I have to be careful what I lift, what lifts me, or what pulls me into any odd position. So, that being said, I still would not, and do not use (or advocate the use of) pinch collars as a show-ring tool. If there is a question, leave the animal at home.

As for you "non big ole wimmin"  ... I've seen plenty of you gals in the five-foot category, maybe weighing in at 120 soaking wet put many a big buck in his place in the show ring when his hormones gets the better of himself!!! I really admire a handler (man or woman) who can pull a buck up short and get his attention.

I have had to sit on the head of more than one LM buck while he thought about "it" ... and finally decided his humiliation wasn't worth his attitude in the ring. Of course, that was when I was a whole lot younger and before (or perhaps the reason for) my back issues. <G>

As I have said previously, I had my share of unruly bucks over the years, and I have learned my lesson. I guess I see a pinch collar "in the show ring" as an animal not being quite polished enough -- kind of like trimming half of a doe's udder -- if you aren't ready for the ring, don't embarrass the animal or yourself. But--if you have a well mannered (enough) buck that could use some show ring exposure, I say go for it! And may the best buck win--now isn't that a subjective wish? <VBG!>


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Yeah, those ugly, gangly, "oh, no, what have I done to end up with this!" stage those boys go through can really scare you! My Nubian buckling started growing in all the odd places just before rut this past year. His front legs lengthened, but not his hind. His lower jaw started jutting out. His body widened but his head seemed to shrink. I'd look at him and wonder if I should even try breeding him! I had no choice so i did. As much as I love taking pictures, I didn't even bring the camera out tot he barn when he was going through that stage for fear his image would pop up accidentally!

Rut is over. His legs are all caught up. His jaw is normal and his head is no longer the size of a pin. He's actually a handsome young man.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Bill I'm a 5'7" 120lber soaking wet Theoden is a sweetie here at home, clip trained. He just wants to rool his head in the crook of my arm and adore me, makes for a really funny looking set up. I just need to spike collar him and I am sure he would behave, here at home. But I know him, he doesn't like men and gets jealous when I spend time with the "other" boys. Just not a buck I would take somewhere he isn't familiar with in a ring full of unknown bucks, with all those buttons that can set him off :nooo. Thats why he's a neandrathal
I am very forgiving of our boys' ugly stages
Tam


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

I wondered the same thing ! Our buck is on the front page,as I am very proud of our 2 Boer bucks ! ....


> www.boertrekfarm.com


 however when we got into Boers and bought our first buck,we went to the farm and I wanted to see the sire to the buckling we were buying,the man motioned to the back fence across his pasture where 5 bucks were in a pen,he said we couldn't go see the sire as he was real mean and a doe was in heat and there could be trouble... so we didn't check the sire out . I asked about the mama doe and he motioned to about 10 does feeding on hay,well they all had red heads and they all looked alike ... however the buckling had fantastic bloodlines papers and he had beautiful dark red head even tho he was sorta small ... so we bought him. Later I did some checking and his daddy sire was small and mama doe had multi teats and had a horrible udder ... IF I had seen the parent's to the buckling before I purchased the buckling ,I would have never bought the buckling but his paper work was fantastic :/ .. I like to see those parent goats !


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