# How much inbreeding is just right?



## Squires

On another post, someone mentioned that Frosty Marvin (famous sire and ancestor of a heck of a lot of Nubians in North American) was strongly inbred. From the ADGA pages I got:

HALLCIENDA FROSTY MARVIN - N000181594 (PB Buck SGCH) DOB: 1/20/1972

HALLCIENDA FROSTY MARVIN - 22.91% Inbred

Top 10 Individual Contributors to Inbreeding %
Registered Name	Reg #	Inbreeding %
HALLCIENDA CLEOPATRA	N000157013	6.29
NAJA GOLIATH-HALL'S DOLL	N000140676	5.09
NAJA GAYALA N000121814 2.49

From the list, I only took the top 3 contributors to his inbreeding.

In the case of Frosty Marvin, this inbreeding was a good thing, because it seems to have concentrated all the best into one buck, who then set his stamp on the breed.

How does this compare with say, an individual that is only 1% inbred, or perhaps 10% inbred?

What is the significance of inbreeding? Is it something positive, or negative, and when do you decide which it is? 

Just wondering.


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm

A higher percentage of inbreeding is supposed to produce consistency in the offspring. That's why it's a good thing. Now, my comfort level is about 20%. That's as high as I want to go. I did a 19.86% inbreeding this year and love the kids, but bought a mostly outcrossed buckling just to get my numbers down for the next generation. (He's not a total outcross, though, so it's not like they'll go down to nothing) Some folks are okay with higher numbers, and some don't want to go that high. As a breeder, you have to find where you are comfortable with and be willing to play with things and know some results are going to be meat and some may do really well.


----------



## ellie

Inbreeding concentrates genetics. That means all genetic material/propensities. While in Marvin's case that concentrated milk production it also concentrated things like steep rumps and widely spaced teats. Also there is some evidence that Marvin was a G6S carrier which may account for its prevalence in the Nubian breed (I am not paranoid about G6S like some, seeing it all as a trade off). Inbreeding can produce some animals with genetic faults even occasionally fatal ones. Most of the time that's a non issue. But if you start with animals with faults, the faults also get concentrated. Here's an example that worked:

Myra of Evania 4*M N104175 (a daughter of Tony of Evania N98425) was bred back to her father. Their daughter, Marla of Evania 5*M N117449 was bred back to her father (and grandfather) Their daughter, Marletta of Evania 6*M N125233, was bred back to her father (and grand and great grand). Their daughter is MELODY OF EVANIA 7*M N127820 is ultimately behind most of the good Nubians of today. Tony of Evania was line bred, already, but not inbred. BTW, these goats are old, old, old, before the adga computer records and go back to Malpas Ambassador, an import.


----------



## Squires

ellie said:


> Inbreeding concentrates genetics. That means all genetic material/propensities. . . .


So, in inbreeding you might get some REALLY BAD goats where all the negative traits are concentrated in one animal, too. This is always a good excuse for a BBQ. 



ellie said:


> . . . Marletta of Evania 6*M N125233, was bred back to her father (and grand and great grand). Their daughter is MELODY OF EVANIA 7*M N127820 is ultimately behind most of the good Nubians of today. Tony of Evania was line bred, already, but not inbred. BTW, these goats are old, old, old, before the adga computer records and go back to Malpas Ambassador, an import.


So, in theory, providing the offspring are really good, you can get away with it. This is also how unusual traits get set in domestic chicken-breeding. You have to be willing to cull a lot of undesirable offspring, though, to get that really good one.

Thanks for another example that worked out. I know they are very rare and far and few between.


----------



## Squires

OK -- so when one is thinking of inbreeding, one wants to be cautious that one is not concentrating bad traits.

What does it mean when you are choosing a buck and he is inbred and correct? Does that suggest that he is more likely to pass on his family character to the offspring?


----------



## ellie

What it really means is that he is unlikely to have the opposite traits lurking in his background. Take topline for instance. Say he has a good one and is very inbred. He's unlikely to have the genetic trait for a bad topline in his genes that just didn't show up (recessive). An outcross type buck might have a great topline but he might have a bad topline from his grandfather lurking in his genetic material. Results are that an inbred buck is more likely to throw offspring like himself not some distant unknown ancestor. Course if the doe is unrelated, that's an unknowable factor

By the way, if anyone wants the pedigree for Melody of Evania, just email me at [email protected]. I hope someday ADGA will get all the or card entered into the computer. I also have 8 generations (with some holes) on Hurricane Acres Penny Patrice if anyone is interested in old Nubian pedigrees.


----------



## Ashley

> Myra of Evania 4*M N104175 (a daughter of Tony of Evania N98425) was bred back to her father. Their daughter, Marla of Evania 5*M N117449 was bred back to her father (and grandfather) Their daughter, Marletta of Evania 6*M N125233, was bred back to her father (and grand and great grand). Their daughter is MELODY OF EVANIA 7*M N127820 is ultimately behind most of the good Nubians of today. Tony of Evania was line bred, already, but not inbred. BTW, these goats are old, old, old, before the adga computer records and go back to Malpas Ambassador, an import.


Wow, that is really inbred. I would have been scared.

Some problems from inbreeding aren't apparent right away. Like Impressive, a quarter horse. He had a genetic fault that was passed down to tons of horses before it was discovered. HYPP.


----------



## ellie

True, Ashley, but some problems from life are not apparent right away. Some people thrive on risk, others do not.


----------



## Squires

ellie said:


> True, Ashley, but some problems from life are not apparent right away. Some people thrive on risk, others do not.


Inbreeding can also be used as a tool to find out if any bad recessive traits are lurking in the genetics.

I once talked with a well-respected breeder of rare type of sheep, who made a point of testing potential breeding rams by breeding them back to their dams to see if anything particularly unpleasant had been bred in. If the offspring were normal and of good quality, she would sell that as a tested sire; otherwise, BBQ.

I'm not sure if most people would want to do that -- you have to be ready to cull if anything turns up -- the offspring, the sire, and possibly the dam, too.

Of course she charged an arm and a leg for a tested, proven sire. And she never had an unhappy customer (no five-eyed, hump-backed, crooked small-ruminants ever came from her ranch). A back-breeding won't catch every genetic abnormality, but it helps.


----------



## Cotton Eyed Does

When I first started A.I. ing I had a gentleman who was well versed in all this tell me that he liked to stay between 4% and 10% inbreeding.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

Nic is another good example on my website. Is he too inbred for the breeder to use on her stock, likely yes. Is he to inbred for me to use on my stock, no. The effects of linebreeding can certainly be seen in Pruittville, consistant scores, consistant stock, consistant udders, in a very small in numbers, herd compared to any Nubian herd I know with that many high appraisal scores or champions. And studying what most would consider outcross animals brought in, with a little digging, those outcrosses really aren't that far out if you look. A model herd for sure to study.


----------



## Ziggy

Vicki gives a good example for Nubians. For Alpines I would say look at the Nodaway herd and you will find a similar thing.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

Excellent idea Ziggy....can those folks of other breeds give out names or websites of linebred herds doing it right? Vicki


----------



## goatkid

This is the pedigree of a doeling born here this year.
http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=N001518297
Tatiana is 21.57% inbred. She's a really nice doeling that I have high hopes for. The way she's built, I predict she'll have a really nice udder. I also have her twin, Tinkerbelle, who is also a nice kid, just not as growthy as her sister. Neither kid has any health issues nor obvious defects. I plan to breed Tatiana this winter, but may keep Tinkerbelle dry if I don't sell her. Tatiana will be bred either to Raphael, who is a total outcross or to his son, Voodoo Child who is just slightly related.
On the other hand, I have a doeling that is only 14.47% inbred (half siblings) who has a teat defect. I'm not sure if it's something heriditary or not, but the dam will be bred to a different buck this year. The doeling will be shipped for meat next weekend. Sad about that because everything else about her is just about perfect, but she can't be shown with that teat and I have to cut the herd back before winter.
I know Saada linebreeds. When they buy an outside buck, they keep a buckling out of him and one of their does to continue the line breeding. They have lovely goats with consistant show wins.


----------



## dawnwinddg

I would rather have some inbreeding than a complete outcross. To me, that's just a good use of genetics, with predictable results. 
Case in point: a few years ago, I was not as into goats as I am now, and didn't have a lot of buck options. A result of that time was this buck: http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=A001397594 who is 31.49% inbred. I know...that's A LOT. He was bred back to his dam, and the resulting kids were happy and healthy as well. I am extremely pleased with his daughters, and am still thrilled that he scored EEE 91 in Linear Appraisal this year as a 4 year old! He'll be used on several non-daughters this year in our herd.


----------



## billinohio

I have heard of some animal breeders that will intentionally do a very close inbreeding just to see if there are any "bad genes" that they need to be aware of.

Another Alpine beeder (she is now breeding Golden Guernseys) that did some very nice line-breeding is Joan Stump of Stump Holow.

For "inbred percentages," I think that it varies with different lines. One breeder told me that they did have have good luck with their Alpines if they went over 10%, but some of their Nubian friends said that they need to stay higher than 12%.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

I also do that Bill, one of the best ways to find out recessive genes in your herd is to breed a sire back to his daughter...especially if it's a daughter out of your own stock you have raised awhile. Vicki


----------



## Daniel Babcock

Great thread, very informative for a rookie like myself. I only have one generation beyond my original stock. I had them appraised this year . . . but no udders yet. 

Can't wait till next year. 

One of my mentors suggest that for them, 10% is very high. Yet their goats are all linebred. I have so much to learn and experience!!! :crazy


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

It's hard to give advice to inbreed high Daniel even if it is what we do, because our herd are usually larger, and we have learned the cull lesson. I have sold every single kid out of a breeding to a buck, without paperwork...most are not willing to do this if a mistake is made, instead the price is reduced and sold to unsuspecting new folks. So your mentor is trying to spare your feelings and sort of coming across as talking out of both sides of their mouth...I know the feeling  V


----------



## Tim Pruitt

Someone said it is linebreeding if it works and inbreeding if it don't.  Seriously though, there is no magic number. As to culling, it don't matter if it is linebred or an outcross - decisions have to be made on a flaw as to whether it should stay in the gene pool or be eliminated. That is strictly the decision of the breeder or owner with consideration of breed standards and association rules. One has to learn the growth patterns or cycles of their bloodlines to know when to cull as some traits are not actual flaws but are developmental stages of growth. 

Inbreeding should not be done for just inbreeding sake. Consideration of inbreeding should be to intensify animals of excellence in the pedigree. Mediocrity breeds mediocrity. Linebreeding on poor quality animals will intensify those poor qualities. When making breeding choices use the genetic tools to bring forward animals of excellence on the pedigree. 

When considering a buck to breed to - use a buck with generations of excellence in his dam line. In this way, you "stack the deck" of your genetics. Very often people use a buck from a dam who is mediocre but who has an excellent sire or even worse the grandson of an excellent sire. It would be better to forget him and use this excellent sire - even if by AI as the son and grandson has been diluted by mediocrity and are likely to pass that on.


----------



## Aja-Sammati

Through years of looking at scores/animals we like, we are slowly building our linebreeding on animals we like to see in the precentage listing...it is hard, and we have sent a lot of animals off to meat or family milkers (some of which were nice, but not passing on the right stuff). One thing I like to do is breed a whole doe line to the same sire (dam, daughter & granddaughter). I have learned a lot by looking at the offspring from those breedings! I can also tell what sires sucked...


----------



## Squires

Tim Pruitt said:


> When considering a buck to breed to - use a buck with generations of excellence in his dam line. In this way, you "stack the deck" of your genetics.


This is one reason for a small herd to use AI -- to always use excellent bucks, and to be able to change sires easily if one doesn't work out.


----------



## Daniel Babcock

I know so little!!! ARGH!!! I have spent literally hours going back and forth between the ADGA genetics site, the top ten breed leaders and various farms websites. Except for PRUITTVILLE'S GABRIELLA I have found that most successful breeders (ie SGGH does 3000# lactations LA90+) are all less than 7% inbred.


----------



## Cotton Eyed Does

This year I am going to use Willow Run Atlas Ransom on Cotton Eyed Does PVYL Cambrell. That is 1.82% inbred. That is outside of the norm of what I normally do (between 4% and 10%) but I am going to try it this year. This buck has qualities that I would like to see in offspring. We'll see what happens.  I wish they would hurry up and get Cotton Eyed Does Renoir Claire in the computer so I can play with planned breedings on her. Otherwise it will be more of a crap shoot on her breeding.


----------



## Tim Pruitt

> Except for PRUITTVILLE'S GABRIELLA I have found that most successful breeders (ie SGGH does 3000# lactations LA90+) are all less than 7% inbred.


Here's a study I did on National and Reserve Champions and their inbreeding percentiles. You can see there are quite a few with high percentages and also a good number with low percentages.

Kastdemur's Temerity 3.78 % inbred
J&R SPIRIT'S DK KOVERGIRL - 3.89% Inbred
LAKESHORE-FARMS JULIE'S JAGUAR - 15.56% Inbred
LH MOUNTAIN VISTA ECLIPSE - 17.06% Inbred (1/2 brother - ½ sister mating) 
KORI-BROOK UN-BREAK MI CORAZON - 2.49% Inbred
LASSENWOOD MILLER VALENTINE - 1.05% Inbred
LASSENWOOD MILLER KALILA - 4.49% Inbred
NARROW WAY DC CLARICE - 3.55% Inbred
WILLOW RUN AT ERAZEL - 2.47% Inbred
WILLOW RUN LIAM SEHAPTIN - 5.86% Inbred
LYNNHAVEN E PARADISE - 3.51% Inbred
KASTDEMUR'S AUBREE - 18.25% Inbred
MANGES-COLONY BREAKAWAY BEAUTY - 0.95% Inbred
COPPER-HILL -A- LADY IN RED - 20.54% Inbred (1/2 brother -sister mating)
KASTDEMUR'S CROWN FINALE - 20.04% Inbred
WINGWOOD-FARM LUKE TAMAULIPAS - 0.51% Inbred
KISMET SMOOTH KRISTIN - 27.12% Inbred
PRICE-O-THE-FIELD LADY REGINA - 6.79% Inbred
KASTDEMUR'S CROWN EXTATIC - 19.58% Inbred
SUNSHINE DESIGN SARAH - 1.71% Inbred
C/F SAMANTHA'S SABLE - 8.04% Inbred

I took the lowest inbred of the National and Reserve National winners and took a look at their sire and dam's inbreeding. While the actual winner herself was not very inbred their sires or dams were usually very inbred. Although as you can see a few of these winners were from outcross bred sires and dams too.

KASTDEMUR'S TEMERITY - was only 3.78% Inbred 
Her sire was SWEET HARVEST SHOW TIME - 11.17% Inbred and her dam was KASTDEMUR'S AUDACITY - 14.08% Inbred

J&R SPIRIT'S DK KOVERGIRL - was only 3.89% Inbred
her sire J&R SPIRIT'S DAKOTA'S KAIYOUM -was only 2.69% Inbred 
Her dam M'S SAGEBRUSH KATERO'S MILAN - was 11.37% Inbred while

KORI-BROOK UN-BREAK MI CORAZON was only 2.49% Inbred
Her sire ROUND-ABOUT SMOOTH VINTAGE - 9.98% Inbred while her dam KORI-BROOK SOLAMENTE AMOR - 4.84% Inbred

Although LASSENWOOD MILLER VALENTINE was only 1.05% Inbred
Her sire PRAIRIE-PATCH MILLER was 22.16% Inbred
yet her dam MANGES-COLONY VALENTINA - was only 0.97% Inbred

LASSENWOOD MILLER KALILA - 4.49% Inbred
Her sire PRAIRIE-PATCH MILLER was 22.16% Inbred 
her dam KASTDEMUR'S CROWN KAILUA - 18.25% Inbred

NARROW WAY DC CLARICE - 3.55% Inbred
Her sire was PATCH-QUILT-FARMS D. DODGER - 5.38% Inbred
Her dam PAINTER'S LEAN & MEAN CLYDINE - 10.32% Inbred

WILLOW RUN AT ERAZEL - 2.47% Inbred
Her sire was KASTDEMUR'S ACCIDENTAL TOURIST - 20.04% Inbred
And her dam was WILLOW RUN GOLDEN EMBER - 6.88% Inbred

WILLOW RUN LIAM SEHAPTIN - 5.86% Inbred
Her sire was KASTDEMUR'S CROWN LIAM - 28.49% Inbred
And her dam was WILLOW RUN TRITON SAFFRON - 3.21% Inbred

LYNNHAVEN E PARADISE - 3.51% Inbred 
Her sire KASTDEMUR'S CROWN EXPLORER - 21.08% Inbred
And her dam CIHANEK FARMS UNXPECTD PLEASUR - 0.96% Inbred

MANGES-COLONY BREAKAWAY BEAUTY - 0.95% Inbred her sire was COPPER-HILL ALGINONS BREAKAWAY - 3.67% Inbred and her dam was MANGES-COLONY NICHOLAS GINGER - 0.35% Inbred

WINGWOOD-FARM LUKE TAMAULIPAS - 0.51% Inbred Her sire was PRICE O THE FIELD LUKE - 4.25% Inbred 
Her dam WINGWOOD FARM FIRE TAMALPAIS - 0.37% Inbred

PRICE-O-THE-FIELD LADY REGINA - 6.79% Inbred
PRICE O THE FIELD LUKE - 4.25% Inbred 
Her dam PRICE O THE FIELD A MERCY LADY - 10.5% Inbred

SUNSHINE DESIGN SARAH - 1.71% Inbred
Her sire SWEET SPIRIT DESTINYS DESIGN - 2.71% Inbred while her dam ELM HILLS TIMOTHY SARA - 1.8% Inbred

C/F SAMANTHA'S SABLE - 8.04% Inbred 
her sire C/F PAN - 6.65% Inbred 
her dam C/F SAMANTHA - 1.33% Inbred


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

With so much Kastdemur being used, I hope it isn't lost on those studying it how imbred the bucks that are used the most successfully actually are. Vicki


----------



## Ziggy

And with all the discussion on percentages I hope it isn't lost on anyone that what matters more are the traits that the buck carries. 

High inbreeding with a "bad" buck is just likely going to accentuate those poor traits and potentially give you problems.


----------



## Daniel Babcock

Tim- wow! You really did the work, I was pretty superficial in my determinations. I will look back at the dam and sires of the animals I considered in my initial remarks. 

This information is very informative. 

Am I wrong to conclude that many successful breeders line breed heavily to get foundation (brood) stock and then out-cross the linebred individuals to strengthen specific traits to their herd?

In theory, I would look for some weaknesses that my animals have then find a buck that is linebred and has generations of strength in that particular trait. I could then take that line-bred pre-potent buck and use him to improve the weaknesses in my herd?

We had our herd appraised this year. Now to look through the scores and data and look for weaknesses that we want improved. 

This is great!


----------



## Ziggy

Dan - I would say that your statement is generally correct. Good luck with your her improvement plan. Doing LA is a very valuable tool and good way to know what to concentrate on - congratulations on choosing to participate in the program.


----------



## Tim Pruitt

> Am I wrong to conclude that many successful breeders line breed heavily to get foundation (brood) stock and then out-cross the linebred individuals to strengthen specific traits to their herd?


Dan,
Every breeder has his own strategy. Ivan & Barbara Rissler purchased their foundation doe from a note on a bulletin board at a feed store. The Johnson Dixie was the result of breeding a sire to a daughter for 3 generations. In other words, her sire was her grandsire and great grandsire. http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=N000245981
This doe stamped her style on her kids and was the mother of champions even though she never became a champion herself.

Her two sons, Price O The Field Duncan and Dutch Man were two of their foundation bucks. Her daughter Johnson Jones Bambi was the brother to POTF Charlie and GCH Blondie the dam of Bartholomew.


----------



## wheytogosaanens

Well.... This is a fascinating subject!

Two-Ceders Victor (purebred) was 19% inbred. When bred to our American does the in-breeding was less than 1%. But he sure slapped wider rumps, flatter backs, high escutcheons and increased general appearance overall. Loved a high quality line-bred buck. 

We will be using Old-English Cactus Jack (17% in-bred) and Old-English The Cisco Kid (25% in-bred) pretty heavily this year. But when bred to outside does, the % in-bred drops to about 1%! Still we have seen great improvements using line-bred Boer bucks as well as Victor - so when we went shopping, we wanted a well-bred line-bred buck. (Their grand-sire, Old English Jack's Son was 2007 Premier Sire at Nationals and his daughters LA at 89-93. Jack's Son is the grand-sire both top and bottom of these boys' pedigrees).


----------



## Tim Pruitt

Great topic! Thanks Camille for your input. I used a 23.62% inbred buck on my does as an outcross. I wanted him heavily inbred knowing he would be an outcross and he was - the resulting offspring was .06%, .02%, .0%, .0% inbred when bred to my animals who were not nearly as inbred as the afore mentioned buck. The resulting outcross was excellent adding a little pizzazz to my does with a fuller ear while keeping the same body style as my animals. What is surprizing was to see how much they actually look like their dams with a few minor changes. Since the outcross, I am breeding them back to my bucks to continue the type I love and admire. 

I kept a buck from this breeding that will work well with my animals even though he too is .06% inbred. This works well for me because when bred to my does it is a linebreeding on the type of animals that I am striving for - yet with a bit of "hybrid" vigor brought in through the cross.


----------



## eliya

Very fascinating info! With the MiniNubians we are finally getting a large enough gene pool that we can play around with linebreeding a little more. One of my best doelings yet (can't wait to see her udder when she freshens) is the result of a father daughter breeding (Alabama). Her sire/grandsire is out of a doe who is the result of a mother/son breeding.

I have heard from some breeders that if you draw the pedigree out with the dam on one side and the sire on the other and their ancestors stretching back behind them (so the pedigree looks like this >kid<) and then draw lines between the duplicate animals, that your best linebreeding will be when you can create triangles with the lines. It took me a long time to figure out what they meant by that, but I finally figured it out. It's been fun to play around with things and see what results I have gotten with different linebreeding experiments.

Does anyone know how to figure inbreeding percentages without the ADGA pedigree database? MiniNubians aren't there and I'd like to figure the numbers on some of mine.


----------



## wheytogosaanens

Tim Pruitt said:


> Great topic! Thanks Camille for your input. I used a 23.62% inbred buck on my does as an outcross. I wanted him heavily inbred knowing he would be an outcross and he was - the resulting offspring was .06%, .02%, .0%, .0% inbred when bred to my animals who were not nearly as inbred as the afore mentioned buck. The resulting outcross was excellent adding a little pizzazz to my does with a fuller ear while keeping the same body style as my animals. What is surprizing was to see how much they actually look like their dams with a few minor changes. Since the outcross, I am breeding them back to my bucks to continue the type I love and admire.
> 
> I kept a buck from this breeding that will work well with my animals even though he too is .06% inbred. This works well for me because when bred to my does it is a linebreeding on the type of animals that I am striving for - yet with a bit of "hybrid" vigor brought in through the cross.


See - this is what we have been learning from many top breeders - you "go out" and then come back into your own lines again. So we too will be creating our own bucks to bring back into the herd. In the case of these two bucks, we may take them to each others daughters.... The inbreeding on that is a little over 10%, so amazingly, not that high. And some lines are more pre-potent than others.... A doe that consistently passes her excellent traits on to her offspring, regardless of the buck used to cover her...Now that is a foundation doe!

This is not to say that extensively using a buck from another herd is not a good idea - if his quality is higher than what you have in your herd at the time, then hang onto that buck and breed him back to grand-daughters, etc. You are still retaining a type of animal (phenotype/genotype) while you tweak to get what you want. Or just use him for the next generation of daughters - essentially breeding up to your foundation stock.

P.S. We have also found that breeding animals of similar phenotypes is much more successful than strict pedigree (genotype) breeding.


----------



## Tim Pruitt

> P.S. We have also found that breeding animals of similar phenotypes is much more successful than strict pedigree (genotype) breeding.


Exactly!

Find something of similar type to what you are desiring and breed within the type.

Also remember when breeding - you must also think about the good traits you want to bring in but you must also consider the traits you don't want as well.


----------



## cariboujaguar

dawnwinddg said:


> I would rather have some inbreeding than a complete outcross. To me, that's just a good use of genetics, with predictable results.
> Case in point: a few years ago, I was not as into goats as I am now, and didn't have a lot of buck options. A result of that time was this buck: http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=A001397594 who is 31.49% inbred. I know...that's A LOT. He was bred back to his dam, and the resulting kids were happy and healthy as well. I am extremely pleased with his daughters, and am still thrilled that he scored EEE 91 in Linear Appraisal this year as a 4 year old! He'll be used on several non-daughters this year in our herd.


Geeze you have some lovely Alpines! It's amazing to see that some of them jumped from low80's to 90 in LA in just a year or so!!! What an interesting herd, thanks for sharing! Very impressive, you should be proud!


----------



## Squires

Tim Pruitt said:


> P.S. We have also found that breeding animals of similar phenotypes is much more successful than strict pedigree (genotype) breeding.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly!
> 
> Find something of similar type to what you are desiring and breed within the type.
> 
> Also remember when breeding - you must also think about the good traits you want to bring in but you must also consider the traits you don't want as well.
Click to expand...

Some day in the far, far future, perhaps instead of looking at LA's and type assessments, we will be looking at genetic maps of each individual goat, and can select which genes we really want. Because what we are doing when we line-breed or inbreed is trying to select the genes and phenotypes that please us most.

The herd name is a hint of what genetics MAY be there -- but not a guarantee. The pedigree is a suggestion of what might be in there -- but then every breeding is a little bit of a gamble, because of the chance involved in combining genes. At each breeding, for each individual gene, there is a 50/50 chance of one parent's genetics being expressed over the other's. And there are thousands of important genes in every animal.

If you breed two individuals together over and over, and then cross the F1 generations to each other, and the F2 generations to each other, with no other input whatsoever . . . if your population is big enough at each level, in the end you will have 50/50 of the genetics --- but some individuals will represent one side more, some the other, and a number will have various combinations of the genetics expressed. Breeding is always a risk-taking experience! 

Just a thought.


----------



## cariboujaguar

Gosh Tim I hadn't had time to read all this, your post was amazing on the inbreeding of high ranking animals! Thanks for doing all that work, it is so cool to see what each breeder is doing and how their herd responds in type, character, production etc.


----------



## wheytogosaanens

> The herd name is a hint of what genetics MAY be there -- but not a guarantee.


This is why breeding is more art than science. And why you will see a long-time breeder accomplishing some amazing things with their animals... they know their lines, even _sense_ which animals will blend well together. And yes, each breeding will give different results, even the same buck to the same doe. However, if it was completely random, then you wouldn't see the improvements that thoughtful and intelligent (willing to do the homework and use the information available) breeders have been able to achieve.

We have always found that listening to experienced and accomplished breeders, regarding breeding philosophy, lines, management, etc. has always been a great benefit to us - and something for which we have always been grateful.

Camille


----------



## punchiepal

I have been playing with this free version software to figure %'ages. It is free for 5,000 animals to 10 generations. 
http://www.tenset.co.uk/fspeed/fspeed.html

To keep track of who have I have entered I keep 2 worksheets. One in MS Excel with the 3 columns I need (so I can alphabetize). When I am done modifying there I save it and do a copy/paste into a txt file in notepad and save that to use in the program. The times I have had errors it has been when I pasted to notepad and it did more than 1 tab between names. 
HTHs someone


----------



## Squires

punchiepal said:


> I have been playing with this free version software to figure %'ages. It is free for 5,000 animals to 10 generations.
> http://www.tenset.co.uk/fspeed/fspeed.html


 :wow 
That is a great link! Thank you for sharing! :thankyou


----------



## cariboujaguar

wheytogosaanens said:


> intelligent (willing to do the homework and use the information available) breeders have been able to achieve.
> We have always found that listening to experienced and accomplished breeders, regarding breeding philosophy, lines, management, etc. has always been a great benefit to us -


You know what I have found? Many of the herds with exceptional animals who draw my eye have breeders/owners who are compatible in character to me personally and visa versa. I think a breeder who is not in it for the money, but for the pride and joy of developing a vision, improving a breed, making a mark seem to have nicer more consistent animals all in all IMO.

And I wanted to point out Debbie Patnode of Sand-bur Kids in OR as a breeder who excersizes a broad variety of techniques from what I know. She is now introducing polled lines to her herd. She has never been afraid to bring in new lines, try new things and cull when something isn't following her vision. She has a few styles of animals, a variety in her lines that makes it easy to buy from her for whatever project you're working on. I find her lines interesting to look at and have a few animals of hers that I am very happy with. I don't think we should over-look the 'pioneers' who may not be the biggest herds and may not have all GCH's but are responsible breeders excersizing, experimenting and thinking outside of the box.


----------



## Tim Pruitt

> And I wanted to point out Debbie Patnode of Sand-bur Kids in OR as a breeder who excersizes a broad variety of techniques from what I know. She is now introducing polled lines to her


Isn't she dispersing her herd?


----------



## cariboujaguar

Tim Pruitt said:


> And I wanted to point out Debbie Patnode of Sand-bur Kids in OR as a breeder who excersizes a broad variety of techniques from what I know. She is now introducing polled lines to her
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't she dispersing her herd?
Click to expand...

Yeah she is cutting way back and focusing on polled animals, but I have always had fun checking her site to see what she's up to from time to time.


----------

