# Blood draw difficulties



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

Okay, I've drawn blood on my dairy goats with very few problems. If I don't get them in one stick, I get them in the next one or two. Well, my neighbor has asked me to draw blood on her boers and boer/dairy crosses. I only got blood from her kiko. I tried for THREE AND A HALF HOURS to no avail to get blood on her others. The vein was either buried under meat/fat/whatever or the skin was incredibly thick and the vein had moved by the time I had gotten the needle through, or the vein was actually really little. I went home and tried drawing on one of my goats just to see if I'd lost my touch, and I got it in only two sticks. Is there a difference in breed to breed in ease of blood draw?

:help2


----------



## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I drew my first blood on my Boers when I had them and had no difficulty. Did you clip a little spot of hair so you can see the vein easier? I did this on all of them for the first few times until I got the hang of it. I have found it also helps to cup the neck and press just a little to get the vein to fill up so it is easier to see.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Are they really fat? That can make it really difficult. I always hold off the vein like Beth is saying (well, I only do one side), just press in the jugular groove. Try shaving their necks, maybe they have a really thick winter coat? I have heard boers tend to have a lot of cashmere. Using rubbing alcohol can also help get the veins to stand up. I made some videos of other veins you can use to draw on a goat, but my husband still hasn't edited them for me to put on Youtube...sigh.


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

I don't have trimmers. A couple of them are overconditioned, but not all.


----------



## Hobbyfarmer (Nov 1, 2012)

What an ordeal. This must have been a huge confidence buster. But we all have off days. You'll do better next time. My guess is one of 3 things happened. 1) improper technique or poor knowledge of anatomy. 2) improper equipment (needle size). 3) poor restraint and positioning of the animal.

Since you can draw on your own animals most likely #3. What do you think? The head really needs to be held correctly. For optimum results.


----------



## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

And shaving the neck really helps. A lot of times you can see the vein when they are shaved.
Theresa


----------



## Polopony (Dec 24, 2011)

It absolutely helps to shave/clip them prior. They just have a lot more meat there than the dairy breeds. Also, make sure you use a longer needle. My vet gave me some that were just too short-they worked great on the dairy does, but not on the Boers.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Change needle size?


----------



## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Changing needle size to a longer needle may help since it will get further through the coat and skin.

You might also consider doing the stick on the ear vein. It would be easier to see and easier to get to. You may need to use a smaller diameter needle for an ear vein, but don't go too small.


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

Would a 22 gauge needle work on an ear vein?


----------



## LSP Farm (Dec 4, 2011)

I use rubbing alcohol to smooth hair, clamp it below the point of entree and put another finger to the left of the vein if its a roller. Also a head stretched to tight will make a vein vanish. I pulled blood from my bucks with fat necks with no problem the other day. So I don't really think over condition would be to bad. I have to agree that it's probably poor position of the goat. 
Sam


----------



## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas said:


> Would a 22 gauge needle work on an ear vein?


That might be pressing it, but I surely wouldn't go any smaller than that. A 20 gauge would be better, but it depends on the size of the vein. The reason for using a bigger gauge needle is to keep the cells from being crushed as they are pulled through the needle. I have never used a needle bigger than 18, but no smaller than 22.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I am sure that biotracking gets lots of hemolyzed samples-poor technique can cause it as well. It must not effect the test too much. 


Qz Sioux said:


> That might be pressing it, but I surely wouldn't go any smaller than that. A 20 gauge would be better, but it depends on the size of the vein. The reason for using a bigger gauge needle is to keep the cells from being crushed as they are pulled through the needle. I have never used a needle bigger than 18, but no smaller than 22.


----------



## nlhayesp (Apr 19, 2012)

I drew 15 samples over a week ago from both dairy and boers. The one I had the hardest time with was the nubian buck. The vein wasn't obvious (?), or maybe it was how my husband was restraining him. He is too big to fit on a stand ,so it took some manuvering to get him restrained. Some were easier than others, but not by breed. My clippers stopped working after the first few, and I resorted to using the sheep hand shears to "clear the area" of hair.


----------



## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

I will never again try to do it without clipping. Once was enough. I use an 18.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I always draw with a 22, so I know that size is ok.


----------



## lasergrl (Jan 24, 2010)

I use the back leg vein when I don't have help since it is actually much easier with a milk stand. My buck I cant even feel the neck vein and his skin is so tough the leg always works better.


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

Ha! Well, it wasn't my fault, I guess so much as it was my helper's fault! I went back today to draw blood and I brought my dear friend who is a fellow goat-raiser and she held the goats so well that I got all but the little 6 month old doelings in one stick! It's nice to know I haven't lost my touch  I did try them with the ear vein, but either the blood flows so slow I can't tell, or I did it wrong. I've never tried in the leg before. Maybe I'll try that on my bucks this spring. Thanks for all the help!

dance:


----------



## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

fmg said:


> I am sure that biotracking gets lots of hemolyzed samples-poor technique can cause it as well. It must not effect the test too much.


You are probably right. I think the only reason you would need to worry about hemolyzed cells would be for a blood count, where you really are looking at the condition of the cells along with other things. The test that Biotracking uses probably doesn't care what the cells look like, they just wanna know if there are any "boogie bugs" swimming around with 'em :lol


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

lasergrl said:


> I use the back leg vein when I don't have help since it is actually much easier with a milk stand. My buck I cant even feel the neck vein and his skin is so tough the leg always works better.


Where is the vein in the leg, exactly? Can you post a pic?


----------



## nlhayesp (Apr 19, 2012)

And if chosing a leg vein, how do you keep them from kicking? Back feet are the hardest to trim as they have the kick-off-the-preditor kick resoponse.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

That is what my videos are...dang I need to get them posted up! I have no idea how to edit video, so need hubby's help. The leg veins are more superficial than the jugular. The one in the rear leg that is easiest to stick is the saphenous vein, which is just above the hock. You can easily see it without even hold off (maybe not with winter fuzz as much). Look at your does on the stand...the vein runs slantways across the rear leg just above the hock. You hold off above it behind the stifle. My goats are kind of jumpy about using that vein, but if you have someone hold up the opposite back leg, sometimes that helps.

The front leg has the cephalic vein which starts up by the "elbow" and in goats it splits pretty high up, but you can just use whatever side you want. The holder grabs above the elbow with thumb in center, and rolls to the outside. With leg veins it helps to put your thumb of the non-syringe hand right next to the vein to keep it from rolling.


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

Yes, you do need to put those videos up! I'd love to see them!


----------



## WGF (Jul 1, 2009)

Can I talk anyone into coming and showing me how to draw blood. I had a friend who use to do it for me but not anymore. Anyone near southern Ohio want to help me out lol. I need to learn to do this cause its been a couple years since Ive had them tested and I want to get it done again.


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

I'm way up in Ashtabula County, Ohio or I'd come. If you're on FB, that's a great way to connect with local goat raisers and ask that very question. There's more goat forums than I can count.


----------



## jdavenport (Jul 19, 2012)

Joanie-If you join Nubian talk on Yahoo you'll see a posting for a goat group in south eastern ohio. It sounds like they are just getting set up, but you should be able to get lots of great info! Here's the posting:
Jan 26th at 10:30 Am thru 1:30 P.M. at the Cambridge Cross Roads Library
(Cambridge Ohio) we will be holding our first meeting . This location is very
close to I 77 and I70 .At this time we will be electing officers and working out
the details of having a Group. We plan to promote the dairy goats in our area
.We also plan to teach soap making-cheesemaking- and help 4 Hers on their
showmanship. We want to have a clinic this summer to promote our goats. And once
were organized wed like to see a local ADGA show take place in our area.Please
pass the word that were trying to make this a great group any questions please
call me 740-679-2442 Thanks
posted by Debi her yahoo tag is shesamaillady. Good Luck!


----------



## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

To keep them from kicking, wrap your hand around their leg just above the hock, press gently but firmly against the tendon there and they are unable to kick.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Nancy I would bet if you would email them to Daniel he could put the videos up. vicki


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

They are huge, need compressing and I need to dub over them with instructions because I didn't talk through all of them because the goats weren't necessarily cooperating.  I used my friend's saanens to hopefully make things easier to see. I really just need to nudge my husband!  (or not have a honey-do list a mile long...)


----------



## WGF (Jul 1, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I live in very southern part of Ohio, so Cambridge is about 3 hrs from me. It seems like everything is to far away, I will just have to try to teach myself this year. After everyone kids so I dont freak any of the pregnant does out lol.


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

Joanie, there's some excellent youtube videos on blood drawing on goats. That's how I learned how to do it. I watched as many as I could find so I could understand it fully.


----------



## WGF (Jul 1, 2009)

Thanks I will look some up before I do this and hopefully it will teach me something lol thanks for all the help.


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

WGF said:


> Can I talk anyone into coming and showing me how to draw blood. I had a friend who use to do it for me but not anymore. Anyone near southern Ohio want to help me out lol. I need to learn to do this cause its been a couple years since Ive had them tested and I want to get it done again.


Can you have your vet teach you?


----------



## WGF (Jul 1, 2009)

Yes I could have my vet teach me, but was just trying not to go that way cause he wants me to load them up and drive them in and then charge $10 a goat.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

You could have the vet do one or two, and then you do the rest, from what he has taught you.


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

fmg said:


> You could have the vet do one or two, and then you do the rest, from what he has taught you.


 :yeahthat


----------



## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

I used to raise registered boers. They had a lot of muscling and I did feed them well, not over conditioned, but healthy. They were hard to pull blood on. By nature, they simply have thicker more mucled up necks than the slender long necked dairy goats do. You can purchase a small trimmer at WalMart. One that is for men to trim their beards, etc. I have one that sits in a stand and charges and is always ready to use when needed. That is all you need to trim the hair on the neck where you want to stick them. It works fine and they aren't very expensive. I think mine was like $18.00. You can also use it on your dairy goats udder for a quick little trim or their ears, face, etc. for show trimming. 

Anyway, I found that it was a lot easier to find the vein on one of my big boers if I trimmed the neck area and hooked a lead rope on the goat and trotted her/him around for a few minutes. If you get a child or somebody else to trot the goat around is even better.  As soon as they stop trotting, then try to draw the blood before the heart slows down. Also, you can use plain water over the vein area to make the vein a little more visible. Just put some water in a spray bottle.


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

Those are all fantastic ideas!
Best idea around, though, is to find a handler that knows how to hold a goat! :biggrin


----------

