# Can we revisit castrating??



## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

So, I know the topic has been previously covered, and more than once, but in leu of a poor sweet wether that was PTS yesterday, I am hoping to pick some brains here. 
Personally I am sure that the wether blocked cause he was fat, and the owner recently introduced alfalfa into his diet. Saturday night she called me, it was so heart breaking, this little fella was the sweetest animal ever, and loved his owner with all his heart. But love does not keep animals healthy, or at proper weight.

Anyways, the vet that she took him to yesterday claims to be specializing in goats. I think that is wonderfull!! I only hope she is open to learn from goat owners as well as her sources, we'll find out about that soon enough I am sure. 
Apparently Dr.B believes in waiting till wethers are 4 months old to castrate, because of what we have all _heard_ and read...yadda yadda urethra
yadda yadda.....forgive me please if I seem a bit disrespectful, but as far as my research can tell, there is no proof of the urethra "theory" The close as I could come to proof was a test done on steers in the '70's where one group was castrated young, the other was castrated older. According to the study, the younger steers had problems with UC, while the second group, castrated older, did not...

So, I am not really interested in opinions, rather proof. Is there any proof that ya'all know about ,aside from the simple fact that the wethers that I (and I am sure you) castrate at two weeks old have not ever had a problem in eight years. Granted, I know eight years isn't all that long, but it's long enough for me.

Id like to have a friendly chat with Dr.B, and pick her brain as well, but am hoping to come with more than just theory...

Thanks a bunch!! :biggrin


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## nlhayesp (Apr 19, 2012)

I posted the same question a few months ago. I recently spoke with a vet from Ohio State about it, as I do sell some wethers as pets. One of the goats in their hospital at the time was a wether suffering from stones, so the topic came up. I asked the vet what the recommended age is for castrating goats for pets. He said that if you wait until they are 4 - 6 months old, the urogenital tract is developed enough that stones are not usually an issue. The downside of waiting so long is that at that age, the testicles are large enough that they should be surgically removed. We waited until our male llama was 2 years old before castrating him. In my opinion, I would wait as long as possible. I have seen or heard of one too many goat suffer and die from this. To me, this really isn't worth a big debate and gathering everyone's opinion. If the majority of males benefit by waiting longer before castrating, then we should do what is best in the long-run for the animals we raise.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2012)

My vet claims that waiting won't make a difference, that it is diet that causes the UC stones.. I have always castrated at the same time that I dehorn, I don't have does acccidently bred this way.. but honestly very seldom have wethers here that long.. 
I have sold hundreds of wethers over the years, out of speaking with some that have had them die.. it seems its diet.. to me and my opinion.. I believe clean water is a must, we all know goats won't drink dirty water.. I know of a couple of wethers sold by myself that are reaching old age.. they don't feed them grain, grass hay only and clean water every day..I also know of some that died very early, they fed them mainly grain because it was easier and commerical pellets..

The entire concept of waiting just plain does not make sense to me ( I am not a doctor, vet or scientist) but I can't wrap my head around it.. Removing the testicles is only removing the reproductive organs on a male goat.. It should not have anything to do with the kidneys or uretha..


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

nlhatesp, 
That is why I was looking for proof not opinion, not debate but facts. 
All vets have opinions on many different topics, but where are the facts??

Barbra, 
I like your vet!! I also agree 100%, but what is frustrating is trying to convince folks that buy wethers of this..
And they will be comming back here to have them castrated. I hate banding, I think it's evil, but at four to
six months old, unless I want a blood bath, it's the only way to castrate...it really makes no sense...


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

No facts for you. I don't castrate. I took a couple to the vet one time and waited because I had read that stuff. The vet scolded me for having waited.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Bucks can get UC as well. Perhaps wethers are more prone to it, but if there are no stones being formed, they can't get a blockage. It is not as if wethers can make stones easier than bucks, but probably that once they make them, they have an increased chance of getting a blockage. Prevention of stones starts with a good diet. Ca ratio is very important. Grain is very high in phosphorus, wethers don't really need it anyway, but if they are going to feed it, best be feeding something high in calcium as well (alfalfa, other legumes).


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## nlhayesp (Apr 19, 2012)

That is why I responded the way I did. I am not going to debate something I don't know anything about and can't research. I did not go to vet school, and I don't know anything about any studies that would lead to the conclusion that the longer you wait in castrating, the better the prognosis is for the wether not to develop urinary calculi. I do have a degree in biology, and I am currently employed in scientific research (not in the field of vet sciences, but all scientific research follows strict procedures that minimize the personal opinion of the researcher) . The study that would give you the "proof" you are seeking would involve multiple replication's of experiments with many animals over a period of their lifetime, with various groups of breeds, ages, age of castration, various diets,etc. This isn't going to happen. So, the "proof" you are looking for is going to be based on an individuals opinion which is based on their personal experiences. We are very close to Ohio State University veterinary hospitals. As a teaching hospital, when something happens to my animals, I get to learn when the students do. I'm sure the vet that told me to wait until they are 6 months old has seen one too many wether die a horrible death due to the stones. As it takes 3 years for a goat to reach adult size, it probably takes three years for all the sub-parts of a goat to reach adult size. All male goats are more susceptible to stones than are females, based on their anatomy, but stones are not as common in bucks as wethers. Let me state the obvious: the only difference between a buck and a wether are two testicles and the sperm and associated horomones they produce that effect every aspect of the animal, not just the testicles themselves. Experience has shown that the younger a goat was when he was castrated, the greater his chances are of getting urinary calculi. And then you throw diet into the picture, and it becomes even more difficult to sort out. So, to get to the bottom of this, call the nearest veterinary teaching hospital and ask them why and ask them to provide proof to support their claim.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Are stones really not as common in bucks as they are in wethers or this just more hear-say? I've never seen any proof.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If the whole castration done older helps, than why do intact bucks get stones? It's diet....sure there are environmental factors in the water, pastures etc...that help cause it, but it is still diet.

Not until meat goat shows came into vogue, the boers coming to America, did we hear so much about wethers getting stones, it was always a problem in adult males. The meat goat market is what causes the urinary calculi with the pushing of grain grain grain and more grain and top dressed with high protein soy (more grain) diets. With little to no grass hay or pasture. So are there more wethers now that get UC than adult males, likely, not on this forum where most don't raise wethers with the old information. The incidence of UC on this forum with correct information is likely lower nationally also, especially compared to boer sites who blame UC on protein or alfalfa.

The only test I know of is what my 4H kids did back in the 90's. Two young buck brothers, one castrated at birth the left intact. Both raised together, butchered at the end of show season, so around 8 months old....our vet could not tell the difference even under a microscope as to the diameter of the urethra, or see any maturing, one over the other of any of the plumbing. I would defy any vet giving out information like this to site one reference that didn't come from heresay. Vicki


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Not fact but observation:

every case of UC that I have heard of (from people calling to ask advice) in both bucks and wethers, they were fed a diet like Vicki mentioned. Very low calcium, very high Phosphorus, tons of grain, little to no browse/grazing or hay. Because calcium causes UC, dontcha know. Just ask all those "experts" who treat their animals for UC.


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

Thank you thank you and thank you again!!
I am gonna look again for the " Test " that was done on the cattle, see if it for real, and 
talk to DrB about all of it..

It is once again a thing that we have to go by faith and trust that the majority of goat breeders
are correct, and the rest can eat my hat... :crazy


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

I just took a quick look at papers about urinary calculi... they all say that early castration leads to a smaller diameter in the urethra, but NOT ONE cites any research to back this up; everyone just seems to think this is so, so they all repeat it. And in fact they point out that most goats that get it are pet goats eating a very rich diet high in the very things they don't really need: grain. They say that goats out on pasture or forage do not get it. Because of this I would be suspicious about the supposed smaller diameter urethra claim; it really does sound that it's more likely diet. *Maybe* the urethra is very slightly smaller in wethers that were castrated very young, but even here with proper diet I doubt you'd see it that much. 

I've kept wethers and sold them as pets... this is strictly anecdotal, mind you, and a very small sample size, but I have not seen a case of urinary calculi in them, ever. One particular one went to a farm to live with my old 4-H teacher and he lived to a very old age, 15 as I recall, quite respectable for a goat. *However*. They were pastured, and fed hay, not concentrates or grain. So that might be why I got the results I did.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I know this is a problem in cats....anyone know if there is research on if neutered cats have more stones than intact ones? Vicki


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2012)

LOL, well I know they are more common in human males vs females, but do not know if it is more common in neutered men.. LOL>.. just smile..


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I've known of one horrible case of a wether getting stones. This goat was a buck until adulthood and then went to a pet home where he was pampered with sweet feed and no alfalfa. I never saw such a mess in my life. He had several surgeries, re-routing his plumbing so he dripped constantly from between his back legs. He was constantly covered with pee. And it didn't help. He would stop up every couple of days and have to be cathed. He was fat. He was overfed. He was surgically castrated as an adult. He lived a horribly miserable life until he finally died. I was his farrier. 

I have a 6 year old wether. He was banded at about 5 days old. Very little grain fed, ever. And when fed grain because his buck buddy needed it during rut, I've always mixed it with alfalfa pellets. No sweet feed, ever. I also have a two year old wether who has nearly always gotten grain because he lived with my does until recently. He was also fed alfalfa pellets, and/or whole grains. Not sweet feed. He was wethered at about 8 weeks. No UC problems yet.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

http://www.messybeast.com/antineuter.htm

See, "Studies into early neutering".

"M.A. Herron of Texas A&M reported in 1972 that neutering before sexual maturity had little effect on the diameter of the urethra in male cats (an oft-used argument against early neutering). More recent studies at Angell Memorial Hospital in Boston, the College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Minnesota, and the Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences at the University of Florida (Winn Feline Foundation study) uphold this. Animals involved in the Winn study have now been followed for over five years, with no negative side effects reported."

"There was no difference in urinary tract development between the three groups other than normal gender-related differences. The diameter of the urethra in the male kittens was not different. i.e. early neutering did not result in smaller diameters in the urinary tract, nor an increased incidence of cystitis and related problems. Concerns that development of the female urinary tract might be arrested or impaired by early spaying and neutering also proved unsupported."

So, it seems that several studies have been done on this in cats.


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## VictoriaK (Jul 8, 2012)

Nancy this is awesome, and worth taking note of, for sharing with the vet!!
You are a deer!!
And thanks Vicki for the idea!!
I knew I could count on ya'alls!! dance:


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks Nancy we are going to sticky this thread and then put it into 101. Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Hey, np, it was your idea, I just googled it.


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## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

Does it make a difference in *how* the buck was castrated in the occurance of stones? Banding vs. Burdizzo vs. surgery?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Castrating is castrating.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

I think it's a feed problem as I have raised Boers now 12+ years and I have never had any Boers or any goats with stone problems. The other Boer people do try feeding Boers like cattle with feed nearly always out for eating and they think the bigger the buck,the better but I have had those big bucks and they are just too heavy for breeding the younger does. The does hit the dirt and get stomped around and I dont like that . I feed lots of alfalfa and I have never had a problem.


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## pikescustomwork (Dec 2, 2012)

I have found through my research that there are far more studies done on cattle than many other farm type animals. It can often be quite helpful to research things that way and use common sense to convert it to goats. There are tons of studies about male cattle and castration ages. There should be little difference in the studies. Both bucks and bulls age in a similar way and reach maturity at about the same age. The "male" end of things should be quite similar.


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## Nana (May 12, 2010)

Do you actually pay a vet to castrate? I had a farmer show me how. I do it before they are a week old, it is quick and they recover really quick. The trick is to do it before they get too big.


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## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

What is wrong with banding?

I can tell you, what is wrong with keeping a buckling until he is 4 months old..
I have 5 results of accidental matings on the ground right now.
They are gorgeous kids, but I didn't want kids in February. I wanted to breed in December and January.
It is my objective to band all 3 of the bucks in this bunch, as soon as I see something to band!


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

So my silly question is what are the downsides to simply having multiple bucks in a herd? do they really get that rowdy and do they really give so much less meat when butchered etc?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

They stink Ray. They pee all over themselves.


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## jasonmtapia (Apr 3, 2010)

Can we have more on kittens? My barn cat just had kittens, 4 males, and I don't want o pay a vet. Anyone ever neuter a cat? Sorry I know this is not "DairyCatinfo.com"


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## jasonmtapia (Apr 3, 2010)

By the way I am somewhat kidding I will be happy to pay a vet if need be. But if this is something as easy as a goat then cool. My guess is it is not.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Jason, the old Basque guy used to come out here to the farm, and he'd take those big old tom cats, stuff them face first into a rubber work boot and cut them just like you would a hog. They'd scream and yowl, and you'll never catch them again, LOL - but he got the job done.


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## jasonmtapia (Apr 3, 2010)

Hmmm goats don have claws....


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

They do, actually;-) Their feet are comprised of two "claws." And they have "dewclaws" as well, those hard growths on the backs of their pasterns. If you'd ever been struck at by a goat, you'd realize those two front feet can claw you pretty good! LOL 

Like Tracey's story, when I was still showing horses many years ago, I knew a custom belt maker who got mad at his shop tomcat one day because he backed up to something and sprayed on it, so he shoved the cat down into a boot and neutered him with a pocket knife. The cat made a full recovery and never seemed to blame the guy for his on the spot "alteration!" But it's certainly not something I would recommend most people doing to their cats. The members of our current feline familia (all 18 of them!) went to our local vet to be spayed and neutered professionally. Caroline


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## Brigitte (Feb 14, 2014)

Band by 4 weeks. Sometimes breeders wait longer if they are considering the kid as a future herd sire...but, if he is destined to be a wether, band while he is easy to handle. They are unhappy until they are back with their friends...so 2 minutes...then all is right with the world.

I think surgeries and open wounds are just inviting infection, and fly infestations.


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