# Need Help - Dairy character



## Bilrite Farms (Oct 26, 2007)

Okay, this is huge issue with us and we've been working very hard with this in our herd but still have a long way to go to keep the progress we have and then to improve on it in our herd. We both come from a beef cattle background. LOL - as a kid I was in 4-H with our Angus and even entered some judging contests for the Angus field days and placed!

So, we now have dairy goats for several years. We are getting better at seeing the right things but sometimes my eye is still drawn to beef type character. I know when I talked about this with our appraiser this year, our Jersey walked by and he said, look for that in our goats!  We're trying. What things are the foundations for dairy character? Can you suggest some specifics for us to look for and concentrate on in our goats to help us? Small things that would be easy starting points to look for in kids.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Need Help - Dairy*

ADGA has a good book on confirmation I think. and Boy do I need to read it.


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## Beverrlly (Nov 12, 2007)

You can download that book on the ADGA members website for free...that's what we did. It has lots of pictures which I liked!


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Need Help - Dairy*

Hubby keeps telling me this years kids look like meat goats not dairy . Well I want them to grow fast ... I hate seeing hip bones on my dairy girls drives me nuts.

Patty


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2008)

The Illustrated Standard of the Dairy Goat is available through Hoeggers. Shows Ideal udder and attachments. Also has mammory system and a whole chapter on dairy character.


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## Bilrite Farms (Oct 26, 2007)

Okay, where do I find the ADGA article? 

I have ready the Illustrated Standard of the dairy goat several times...maybe I'll check it out from the Library again - good time of year to read it. Thanks!

For some reason pictures don't seem to do it for me, I need things explained and then need to go to my barn and try hands on.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Can you find someone with a nice herd of Dairy girls that you could visit, put your hands on them (especially that "spring of rib" thang - takes some experience to really get that!) and take some pics.

Of course, concentrate on their does that score the highest in Dairy character.

Does thinking "gazelle" help? 

We actually had the opposite problem when starting with the Boers...and I would tell myself over and over when looking at them to "think Angus"! :lol

Camille


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You can't be beefy with loose pliable skin. Skin that pulls away from the body. Bucks with deep wrinkles at their neck. Long flat bone, with the same width between the ribs as the ribs are wide. Ribs flowing (while standing at the head and looking over the rump) back and out, never straight down. Long lean necks. Vicki


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

To me, "dairy character" means feminine and deer-like, with evidence of her calories going into the pail.

This is coming from a former multi-generational beef cattle rancher :sigh


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## UnRuli Acres (Oct 26, 2007)

Think about it this way. If you were to "remove the udders" of a beef cow and a dairy cow and just compare their body and bone structure what is it that tells you whether you are looking at a beef or dairy animal?


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:laughcry I heard Ken (in Mich) explain it pretty good....."Think of the ugliest,skinniest, beef cow you ever saw and you're getting close." 

Flat bone, spring of rib, long, lean neck( not many *thick* goats have long lean necks) and think in triangles. 
Kaye


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

'Flat bone' is such a hard concept to get. I learned by petting the goats at shows that the judges praised for their flatness of bone  and asking the appraiser what I was looking for in that department, too.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2008)

Yup...that was me Kaye. With dairy animals just really think oppisite of beef. 

A GREAT book if you can still get it is....Dairy cattle judging. It was put out by Hoards about 15 years ago. I think you still can get it for about 10 bucks or so. That book no matter is you have cattle or goats, its all the same with the bone structure. Plus...its mostly pictures with little text. It has a picture of a flat boned animal and states that....then a picture of a round bone and then states that. So, its REALLY EASY to understand. Bone structure is the same on dairy goats as dairy cattle. Just one has two teats and the other has four. The score cards are even the same...until you get into the Brown Swiss....theirs is just messed up.

A good place also to see dairy character is go to the World Dairy Expo website. It has all the Grand Champion cow pictures there for years. That is the cream of the cream that wins that show. That will give you an idea on what you want in dairy animals.


Ken in MI


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## CGFarm (Nov 13, 2007)

Here's the great thing, You get to decide on a style that you like. If you have to feed it, house it and look at it on a daily basis then you should like what your breeding.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Does anyone know of an older non-show herd that has deveoped it's own "style" of dairy goat based on what the owner likes to see and feed everyday? I ask, because those of us who do not show are at the mercy of our own choices when we cull. We may know what proper type is per the ADGA guidelines, but we do not have the benefit of an endless onslaught on judges tearing our choices apart in the show ring. it seem, therefore, that non-show herd, especially closed or mostly closed ones, would begin to head in the direction of the breeders ideal of a dairy goat, no matter what that might be. it would be interesting to see what herds like these looked like. Especially those with small gene pools and from those who use bucks from their own herds.


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## UnRuli Acres (Oct 26, 2007)

There probably are herds out there like that. However, appraisal can be used as a tool for determining quality in your herd.....you don't HAVE to show.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

For Nubians- though I don't think you want Nubians, Diane LOL there is the Six-M-Galaxy herd. Closed for over 15 years- they only use their own animals and cull using milk test and appraisal. http://www.sixmgalaxy.blogspot.com/


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## Bilrite Farms (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks everyone. I've been out in the barn trying a few of these out on my herd. One thing I noticed though is that sometimes the visual doesn't match up with the hands on for some of my goats. Some that "look" angular might have rounded bone and narrow ribbing and some that look rounder actually have fairly flat bone and open ribbing when you put your hands on them. Of course it is hard to tell through all the hair right now but it is all a learning process. 

Can you have does that are too dairy too?


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Can you have does that are too dairy too?


Yes, you can.
I've out crossed some of my does this year to a slightly thicker,shorter bodied, type buck, hoping to put some width in the resulting kids. And bred some of my less dairy does to a buck I know will improve dairy character.

This is where learning to use the LA traits comes into play. 
Kaye


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Aja-Sammati said:


> For Nubians- though I don't think you want Nubians, Diane LOL there is the Six-M-Galaxy herd. Closed for over 15 years- they only use their own animals and cull using milk test and appraisal. http://www.sixmgalaxy.blogspot.com/


Fascinating. Like living on an island. Or like my own chicken breed I got out here. A closed herd would eventually suit your own environment if nothing else. The goats that didn't suit it would fall by the wayside.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Kaye White said:


> > Can you have does that are too dairy too?
> 
> 
> Yes, you can.
> ...


When LeeAnne and Katie and family were out here, I asked them to critique my does. The doe I consider the most dairy and the most feminine (Spice...brown one), they found to be too narrow and too fine boned (I think, if I remember). A doe I had not thought much about caught their eye as a better doe (Agnes...the black one).


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:lol Yep. LA (or in your case another eye) will keep ya' from going barn blind.

:rofl Reason I *used to * enjoy going to Springfield,Mo. every year...Ken would burst my bubbles for me and tell me where I was lacking! He was almost as good as LA...and a LOT cheaper! :lol
Kaye


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## kidsngarden (Oct 28, 2007)

You know in the peanuts cartoons when the teacher talks and all you hear is "mooaw, mooaw mooaw mooaw"? That is what I hear when you guys talk about LA's (finally figured out what that stands for, LOL!) and flat bone and etc, etc! I really NEED a mentor over here! I need to see and feel things to get this! :crazy

Now back to your regular scheduled conversation.... :biggrin (meanwhile I will keep reading hoping to glean some glimmer of understanding about all this confirmation stuff!)

Bethany


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Kaye, but then there is the ol' "Which does do you like to look at and feed" thingy.

My 5 foundation does (I guess you could call them) are full genetic sisters and one is just more asthetically apealing to me. She had triplet bucks last year and even they had a better "look" as far as being dairy and even "feminine". 

If one doe just appeals more to the breeder, when do you turn a blind eye to what others think, especially those with more experience judging or showing?

This doe for instance moves differently, holds head differently, glides. Just a more deer-like presence. The others are coarser, wider, which is probably a plus and more desireable.

Eye of the beholder I guess.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

kidsngarden said:


> You know in the peanuts cartoons when the teacher talks and all you hear is "mooaw, mooaw mooaw mooaw"? That is what I hear when you guys talk about LA's (finally figured out what that stands for, LOL!) and flat bone and etc, etc! I really NEED a mentor over here! I need to see and feel things to get this! :crazy
> 
> Now back to your regular scheduled conversation.... :biggrin (meanwhile I will keep reading hoping to glean some glimmer of understanding about all this confirmation stuff!)
> 
> Bethany


Bethany, you are not the lone stranger here...I am trying to figure out what is what myself :sigh


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

Seems to me like if they score really high in Dairyness, then you have to watch out in the strength category, and also I wonder it this would correlate with rump width too? What about shoulder assembly? I have more questions then answers. :duh


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

My concerns exactly. My very feminine and dairy doe is perhaps too fine bone and too "dainty". But again, she is the one I like to look at.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

OH Kaye I would never brust your bubble...just make you see it in a different way. :biggrin

I think people at times put WAY to much focus on the Final Scores and dont look at the breakdowns. You can have a 93 point animal BUT she can have as low as a 86 udder on her. The final scores are weighted to whatever breed you are breeding. Some breeds have higher weights on udder than dairy form and so on. 

My personal opinion is that you have to breed an animal that you like to look at and want to deal with twice a day. I have milked some UGLY UGLY UGLY animals before but, when they are milking double the herd average...they are ok to look at. Its more what the person wants in their herd. 

Like at home...we breed for udders and strong feet and legs. If any one has been around Guernseys know...that is a WEAK point in the whole breed. Most are swing bags with legs that make a German Shepard legs look wonderful. We did not put that much into breeding the 91,92,93 or even 94 point cows. If you are breeding a good sound animal then she will score higher, and most of the time produce more milk. There is little research done on the final score and the amount of milk that they will produce. But, there is ALOT of reseach done on the breakdown scores with the amount of milk they will produce. The research ranges from dairy form to toe placement(just for you kaye...a closed toe animal will produce roughly 10% more milk and live in the herd roughly a year longer). There is one guernsey breeder that is a great friend on mine that has given up totally on AI with his cows. He said that he was not going to let someone else tell him what he needs to breed for, so he only uses his own bulls. Funny thing is that last year he had the highest Herd Average in the country. He breeds ONLY for udders and dairy form, when he gets scored he will have roughly half his herd go EX.

Its all a choice that people have to make, either breed for what people want you to breed for or breed for what you want in the animal.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

aRealdairyman said:


> I think people at times put WAY to much focus on the Final Scores and dont look at the breakdowns. You can have a 93 point animal BUT she can have as low as a 86 udder on her. The final scores are weighted to whatever breed you are breeding. Some breeds have higher weights on udder than dairy form and so on.


In the ADGA Linear Appraisal program ALL breeds are scored the same. Also, it would be highly unlikely that a EX93 appraising doe would get only a low V in mammary. The Mammary category is worth so much in the final score that the doe couldn't score high enough in the other 3 categories to come up with a 93.

Sara


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I feel like screaming because the doe that has the best "body" does not have the best udder and the doe that has the best udder is coarse and I HATE looking at her! Full sisters.

Both had triplet bucks last year so re-bred them to the same buck again. I have doelings from their other full sisters, just not these too.

I know my vision out here but it is wider than it appears.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> just for you kaye...a closed toe animal will produce roughly 10% more milk and live in the herd roughly a year longer)


 :biggrin I KNEW I liked my old buck for a reason! And his daughters are my heaviest milkers. Plus the fact I like closed toes and knee pads that point forward. 

Diane, this is exactly why we would love to be plastic surgeons and rearrange parts and pieces. Most of us have a 93+ doe in the herd...the parts are just on several different does. :lol


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> Most of us have a 93+ doe in the herd...the parts are just on several different does


 :rofl

Omg, yes!! I look at my few best does and think- if I could get that thing here and this one there.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Dabbling with genetics is like dabbling with a paintbrush. Some breeders are artists and some are like those unfortunates who cannot draw a straight line. Most fall somewhere in between. The basics can be taught in the classroom but the breeder with the truest eye is born, not made.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> I've out crossed some of my does this year to a slightly thicker,shorter bodied, type buck, hoping to put some width in the resulting kids.


I did that last year with a doe- the appraiser was very complimentary on the breeding decision  , noted the improvement in strength in the daughter. We'll see when she freshens...


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

Lord, I hope I can breed better then I can draw. :help :biggrin


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

That's why I bred a Titania son (Takatan II) to Kateri. I want Titania's incredible udder on Kateri's tall and elegant and long body. 

Now to see if it works..."Toil and trouble, boil and bubble..." and throw something at the barn wall if it does not! 

Camille


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