# multi min & copper bolus



## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

I gave my goats multi min 90 a couple months ago, my neighbor said not to do the copper bolus since there is copper in the multi min. But everyone looks like they need a good bolus. Is it safe to give a copper bolus or should I wait? maybe a smaller dose?
thanks


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Back in the 90's every single problem with goats was blamed on selenium, I should have purchased stock in the company that puts out Bo-se! The very same thing is happening today with copper...it really does become, give someone a little bit of information and it is parroted to others in such crazy ways, that the information becomes dangerous.

You have to KNOW why you have chosen the management you have, you have to accept responsiblity for the management you choose. You are giving the multi-min as your copper and selenium...why would you now bolus also, when you don't even know if you are copper defficent to begin with? 

I am not talking to you directly........ we have gals on this forum who after obviously not reading the basic studies done by Joyce for the saanendoah, we have the info up on here for everyone to read, done on goats for copper, they then decide to give goats whole boluses, to bolus every 2 or 3 months when it is clear that the bolus is in the stomach chambers for at least 6 months.

Sorry but I was never distrubited those xray glasses some seem to have....I can't see a little rough coat and immediatly know it is copper...how do you know it isn't zinc, how do you know it isn't bloodline and they carry more hair at flank, how do you know the skin problems aren't your low level of fat most goat feeds contain?

I am super happy with the injectable multimin for my bucks and doelings, we know it lasts 21 days in a cows system so I am giving the injections every first of the month, I would so much rather give and injection than bolus my bucks. Yes I bolus my adult does, but with the new info I put up in the copper section on top dressing, I am doing that now. I have a liver biopsy back from this month and even at 10 her copper, being topdressed this year and last fall was just over the high number, which is exactly what I am looking for....But we have high iron here, is it the copper number you should be looking for? Maybe not, iron binds the copper so more needs to be in the system, I can not get my iron out of my management because my girls live on an iorn oxide hill, everything is red, including the roads.

When you buy drugs, write down what you are buying them for, copy out and put into your goat binder what information you read that helped you make this decision. Know your management and why you are doing the things you are doing. And read saanendoah's information on copper, we have lost a lot of the links, sadly.

So....why do they look like they need copper? Have you ran a fecal? Go to goatkeeping 101 and look at the Famacha chart and are they anemic at all? What is the total fat in their diet? Are they getting calcium daily? What mineral mix are you using? Vicki


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

thank you for your reply Vicky. I am so glad I posted this question. I have a lot of homework to do. I will be checking things and will post as I get info


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

But Vicki, Dawn says she gave the multimin 2 months ago. Shouldn't that be out of the system by now?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I have noticed that the winter coats my goats grow are different colored. The black ones grow longer reddish brown hair sometimes. Red ones may grow black overcoat. You do have to know what normal is. It can freak you out at first when your black goat turns red. It really helps to have photos of parents too. I kept scrutinizing this one goat wondering why he was getting redder and redder, and then I noticed in a photo of mom that she had a red overcoat in the winter.


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

Angie, I hadn't thought of that, time to look at pictures. How often should i do the multimin? I have high iron here in the water. There eyelids are pink. Last year I had a nubian doe that had a rough coat, hair in all directions, etc. I gave her a bolus and she showed improvement. Then I read about multimin, thought I would try that, so did so a couple months ago. Should I do multimin every month or bolus, or both. I feed them Noble Goat, been giving them beet pulp, but some won't eat the beet pulp. My husband got whole oats a couple days ago to add to the Noble Goat. oh and coastal grass ha.


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm getting conflicting opinions on this. One opinion is that multimin should be given every 2-3 months, another opinion is that it should be given once every 6 months, both with free choice loose minerals. I'm getting very confused


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

> I'm getting conflicting opinions on this. One opinion


There is no single right answer. Re-read what Vicki posted above. It depends on your area, on the genetics of your herd, on your management, on the quality of your feed, your supplements, your mineral schedule, on the weather (not kidding), etc. The only really reliable way is to talk to people in your area who are using fact-based approaches... people who do post-mortems, who test, who have real data to back up some practices. Or, use solid anecdotal examples and go from there to see if it works.

If your goats are healthy, you're doing fine. If you're having issues, investigate. From a best practices perspective, there's no reason to add all sorts of fancy stuff if what you are doing works, resulting in does who live for a long time with good health, and minimal kidding problems.


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

:yeahthat


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I use them in conjunction. The effects of mineral max are transient and I use that tool more as a trouble shooter in stress situations or for animals from lines that are more needy. I still bolus because it gives long lasting results and keeps everyone on an even keel as far as looking like waxed glass!

Get the bottle and look at the label. Copper is minimal in this mix. The MAIN benefit of this injection is the huge supplement of zinc which is a much underused nutritional tool with ruminants. Manganese is also underrated as therapeutic in goats because once again all the research has been done with cattle. I also do not let the selenium levels in this mix derail my Bo-Se supplementation. It is a minor dose- just as I consider it a minor dose of copper because it is in the carbonate form and it is not going via digestion. They are not really comparable as a management tools. 

Dawn....mineral max is generally put to use in the system within 21 days whereas the bolus is longer lasting and can contribute to liver stores to be called upon when daily dietary sources are lacking.
ANY hair color changes seasonally are nutritional. A goat is an established color once it is mature and if it is not that color with a soft silky coat that lays in uniform direction- meaning following the contours of the body and not doing spirals and waves and sculptures on the sides then they need more copper. If you see this generationally you are not seeing something that is normal to that line- you are seeing the genetic predisposition to needing more copper to maintain coat color and or the tendency towards processing dietary copper poorly. 

I would like to ask that you please do not depend on the famacha chart for anything. It only tells you that you have neglected an animal beyond the timeframe that will ever allow it to reach genetic potential. Keep on a schedule with management - goats thrive on consistency. Waiting until they are anemic to do something about whatever is causing that is for 3rd world countries that are so poor they have no choice to but to manage this way. 

Lee

MIN Max

Zinc, not less than 20 mg/ml

Manganese, not less than 20 mg/ml

Selenium, not less than 5 mg/ml

Copper, not less than 10 mg/m


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

buckrun said:


> I use them in conjunction. The effects of mineral max are transient and I use that tool more as a trouble shooter in stress situations or for animals from lines that are more needy. I still bolus because it gives long lasting results and keeps everyone on an even keel as far as looking like waxed glass!
> 
> Get the bottle and look at the label. Copper is minimal in this mix. The MAIN benefit of this injection is the huge supplement of zinc which is a much underused nutritional tool with ruminants. Manganese is also underrated as therapeutic in goats because once again all the research has been done with cattle. I also do not let the selenium levels in this mix derail my Bo-Se supplementation. It is a minor dose- just as I consider it a minor dose of copper because it is in the carbonate form and it is not going via digestion. They are not really comparable as a management tools.
> 
> ...


I'm really starting to get it. Thanks, Lee. :handclap


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Writing up more on zinc...will post on my mineral mix topic.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

One time frame that requires more zinc supplementation and finds me reaching for the mineral max is kidding.
Colostrum is very rich in zinc contributing to building a vital immune function in the newborn. So a doe will be using more zinc during kidding and coming into milk ( colostrum ) than at any other time and potentially leaving her clinically deficient before her job is done. If you cannot ascertain that they are efficiently converting dietary zinc then supplementing is valuable. Skin and hair are primary indicators of successful usage of dietary zinc. Vital appetite is also connected to zinc levels and more about that later in another topic.

Calcium represented in our management by alfalfa can block dietary zinc absorption so altho we want our does to be presented with adequate calcium for growth of the fetus and production of milk it can cause issues that can only be surmounted by a non dietary source of zinc. Etc....

More later :biggrin


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I guess I should clarify. I have many tricolored and roaned animals with ND blood in them. What I have observed is that normally present hairs grow longer in winter, so a red roan may appear lighter, a red patch may take on a darker appearance. In the spring those longer hairs shed. I do not consider this a color change. The colors are just the same hairs in the mix that were shorter; they just grow longer and alter the appearance. 

If curls are soft, silky, and shiny, you still consider them copper related Lee? I've one doe who on copper turned so black she is nearly blue, but her hair has only gotten curlier! - it is super silky though... Have not yet explored zinc...

Is hair analysis an option for diagnosing deficiencies?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I did not mean curls Angie. 
Curls are part of the S pattern of the individual hair. 
I was referring to and it is hard to describe but all have seen it- the way a short coated goat will look like someone has taken their hand and rubbed the hair against the root direction making ridges and swirls and patches that lay in opposite directions from one another. 

Let me do some cropping for an example of what I mean about direction of hair and I will post an illustration.
Not the character of the hair shaft itself but the direction it takes coming out of the follicle.
It can be altered overnight !

Lee


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Ok, I get it, thanks!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I don't think that all color changes are due to a deficiency. I have a doe who always has soft, shiny hair, but it changes color. There is one area that is mostly white in the summer and fall, and all black in the winter and spring. I am going to post some pictures to show you.

She was born last April. The first picture was taken I think sometime around June or July 2010.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

This was taken in November 2010. That tiny speck of white disappeared entirely shortly after that. Sorry this is her other side, but she does have the same coloring on both sides...


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

This last one was taken a couple months ago, as a yearling. She was back to having more white again, and I think she is going blacker again as we speak.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Nancy in nubians it is exactly the same. During the spring and summer as they shed out or are clipped, they are very dark in color, when winter comes they are brown or red, I have a lot of goats who are completely another color when shaved, so much so I will note it on their paperwork. Red, nearly black when shaved. The best way to describe fried hair from lack of copper is that they had a very bad perm, the ends if long are fried looking.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I'll get a picture of a "fried" goat. I have one. She does get copper bolused at the correct dosage. This is the doe I am treating with AD&E because her skin was just horrible, too. Huge flakes of dandruff. The AD&E appears to be working, at least for the skin. I'll add the pic later today.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Well folks I won't try to convince you any more but it is pretty plain in the research that Zinc is involved in every phase of skin and hair production and that includes color. Read the bottom of the Saanendoah page and look at the photos-that is copper but it is more than that it is balance. My goats look the same year round and have ever since I learned about minerals and what a huge part they play. You cannot tell it is winter by their coats here. That is not to say your animal is not healthy but the information of course has to come from working with the same animals in the same conditions to make any applicable sense.

People honestly do not know that a winter coat is not sposed to look any different than a summer coat....just longer with perhaps undercoat if your breed grows one. An animal with complete nutrition will look sleek and glossy even with a longer winter coat and shed out to perfection without needing to be clipped. There is nothing life threatening about having a messy coat it so does not get addressed seriously and I understand it completely...the goat is fine- why worry.

Nutrition is a hobby of mine but I will give yawl a break :biggrin

Look at the photos near the bottom of this page. 
http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Before I get off my soap box about minerals I want to toss one more idea out there.
Part of my interest in having goats while my children were young was to become as close to sustainable as we could.
That meant I was responsible for the nutrition available to my family. Not some nebulous chain of actors ending in the grocery store. We all can agree there is milk and then there is MILK and part of what makes that so is the nutrition level of the animal producing the milk. If my goats have plenty of whatever they need to take care of themselves then they are going to have enough to process into the milk I will be feeding my family. More complete nutrition for your dairy animal ends up as more complete nutrition for you and your family  So while a messy coat does not necessarily indicate illness it does indicate a lack and this is a lack I choose to address so that my whole 'area of responsibility' has a better chance at lasting health. Ok....done for now.

:soap

Lee


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Hm, well, as I said, her coat is always in good condition, but perhaps I could try supplementing with zinc and see if she stays the same color. I kind of think it might have more to do with her being Alpine crossed with Nigerian, and the two color schemes are battling it out (buckskin vs. sundgau). Even in the pictures where her back end is white, you can see that it will be black because there are black hairs sprinkled throughout. Her son was born the same...we'll see if he changes colors too.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Our alfalfa and calcium rich diets are setting up zinc deficiency. The dairy industry learned this which is why there is a whole line of zinc supplementation used in dairy situations. Zinpro and mineral max were formulated with high daily intake of calcium in mind. Part of the issue with skin problems is that zinc is needed to form the metalloenzymes that convert vitamin A. and....etc.... :blush2
L


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

so what I am getting out of all this is that I need to do minmax monthly, bose every 6 months and copper bolus every 6 months. Is that right? the first pic you showed, Lee, is what my girl looks like.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It works for Lee in Arkansas.....that part can't be said enough on this forum. You don't switch your management around like you do your furniture. There is a huge difference between bolusing orally and injecting vitamins and minerals, it goes to the animal for use quicker and it is used up faster and depleted sooner. Take this into consideration when you choose to use loose minerals, oral COWP that are slowly released, mineral ls in your goat grain mixes, natural vitamins and minerals in your hay and browse, and now on top of it you are going to give an injectable multi-mineral combination...with not one test result for anything, blood, liver etc...on an animal in your region of the US/Florida. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I need to make it plain one more time that just because your goat puts all that supposed nutrition in it's face there is no guarantee that it is being converted to a form that can be used or transported properly or stored correctly etc. This is why injection supplements were developed (and bolus treatments based on region as well). There is no way to know the nutritive value of what you feed because you do not know how it was grown - harvested and stored and more than likely the 'potential' nutrition that a plant or seed is capable of providing is NOT there in our modern agri practices on depleted soils. So the answer is to learn to SEE what your animals are showing you.

Testing your animals for minerals and micro-nutrients is seldom a valid way to discern what works since dietary nutrition is taken up and excreted differently than supplements that are injected. One example is selenium. Organic selenium or natural selenium in the actual food (not added to pellets but in graze and browse and grain) is mostly stored in the kidney and excreted in the urine. Selenium that has been supplemented by injection is converted and circulates in the blood and is stored in the liver is excreted in bile and returns to digestion in another form. So if you test blood you will get the measurement of one thing and testing urine or feces will give you the measure of another and they do not necessarily show you anything you can base a management decision on. And you certainly cannot test each animal each time you get a new batch of feed.

You can however develop the skills to LOOK at your animals and know what they need. Part of this is keeping a journal and keeping your animals for a lifetime. Changing out stock frequently does not let you observe changes under altered management to an extent that you can make good choices.

And further- each animal has different capabilities for conversion- usage and storage of nutrients so what works for one animal will not be needed for another and more will be needed to keep another in the condition that some are in with no effort. 

Based on my own experience Dawn...
I would suggest that you consider bolusing a half dose every 90 days rather than waiting 6 months. This keeps levels more constant. I would also try a monthly injection of MM 1cc per 100 pounds for 90 days and do a documentation of anything you note. Anything- appetite-foot growth-hair and skin-milk production-parasite load and note all feed and weather conditions too.
Then decide if there is an improvement that you think is worth this effort and expense. 

Some areas of Florida supplement cobalt. I understand the soils there are deficient so if you are feeding off your property -graze and browse you may need to contact your county agent and ask about soil issues. If you are bringing in food that is locally grown- hay etc- then perhaps you need to know about their soil as well. Good luck and I encourage you to do photo documentation of your trials as well. 
Lee


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

> And further- each animal has different capabilities for conversion- usage and storage of nutrients so what works for one animal will not be needed for another and more will be needed to keep another in the condition that some are in with no effort.


Also, stressful periods require added nutritional factors. For example, before kidding, vital to have vit D. So if you're up north with less light, or your barn has limited windows, or other similar issues, have to make sure that it's taken in. After kidding, there's stress to produce milk, requiring additional calories and often micronutrients.

What I have found is that needs tend to be seasonal. Pre-kidding is one routine. Spring will be another, as more forage is available. Summer will be yet a third. Post-kidding will be different. Rut will be different for bucks, etc. The goal is to always stay ahead of the curve by knowing what stresses the different seasons bring, and making sure that your goats enter into that season ready to meet the demands of the stress. For example, parasites will use kidding as an opportunity to take over. Vital to have low worm counts, and manage worming post-kidding. And before that, vital to have good selenium levels. And leading to that, vital to have good calcium levels in the feed for young does and milkers, because you don't want those bones to deplete because calcium is either not being added, or is being depleted.

It really does get complex. The best way to learn is to try and understand WHY you're doing something by learning more about nutrition, the seasons and stresses of your area, and the controls you have available to manage all these changes. It's a lifelong process of experimenting and adjusting, but don't be intimidated, because it makes more sense after a while


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

It takes this girl a while to grasp things, especially information that is somewhat technical. I think that yes, you can learn to look at your goats, once you have good info from experienced breeders and see whether or not they might be lacking nutrition, vitamins, minerals, etc. It helps so much to read what others are doing in their areas and to see pictures of great looking goats. 

I don't have tests of my own goats to go on because we have not lost any goats at all in the 5 years we have had goats. I got on the forum very early in my short goat career and while I read what everyone was doing, I did not immediately go out and adopt every single thing. I did one thing at a time, starting with bo-se, then copper bolusing, alfalfa, feeds, etc. which I think gave me some insight into what was actually helpful for the most part. 

I will say that this year, for the first time, my girls did not need a summer haircut. They shed out slick and shiny and I could see no reason at all to clip them. In years past, I was only too happy to clip off that rough winter coat and they looked so much better. 

I found that adding zinc did help one of my black does tremendously. She had always gotten copper, but adding the zinc made her dazzle. We also switched hays this summer, using orchard grass and pearl millet instead of just mixed grass hays, (and of course we always use alfalfa pellets). They do have some pasture, but right now it's not much, so they are really dependant on whatever management I give them. 

Having a baseline of copper, selenium, etc. that you can use to start out with I think is helpful, and then can be adjusted over the next months, seasons, etc. as you learn more. I know that in the beginning we all want to do the best we can and just going by what your neighbor is doing, who may or may not even know what they are doing or why, is not always the best thing to do. I've found this forum very helpful, often giving various opinions/options/etc. that I can think about while I am supposed to be sleeping!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Anita Martin said:


> It takes this girl a while to grasp things, especially information that is somewhat technical. I think that yes, you can learn to look at your goats, once you have good info from experienced breeders and see whether or not they might be lacking nutrition, vitamins, minerals, etc. It helps so much to read what others are doing in their areas and to see pictures of great looking goats.
> 
> I don't have tests of my own goats to go on because we have not lost any goats at all in the 5 years we have had goats. I got on the forum very early in my short goat career and while I read what everyone was doing, I did not immediately go out and adopt every single thing. I did one thing at a time, starting with bo-se, then copper bolusing, alfalfa, feeds, etc. which I think gave me some insight into what was actually helpful for the most part.
> 
> ...


Really well said, Anita!

It's really hard for new people to read all this, ask questions, and then be told that "you have to do what's right for your herd" or whatever the generic answer is. While I have learned that this non-specific answer is certainly true, I have also said (since I joined the forum) that newcomers (new to goats) need a starting point. "I" needed a starting point. I still do sometimes. I guess that's what GK101 is for. And if you are just starting out, you certainly don't have liver biopsies done to help you with some decisions.

I also completely agree with Anita's statement "just going by what your neighbor is doing, who may or may not even know what they are doing or why, is not always the best thing to do." Define "neighbor". You've all said that what happens in one place may not be true not too many miles away. How many miles is that? And let me say, there are very good breeders around here, they win, they have structurally correct goats, the goats milk, but it is obvious that testing (cae), minerals, vacs, are not part of management. That's not management that "I" want to be a part of. I will listen to what they have to say, but really, I come here FIRST. It's you all that I get my most information. Because I trust it.

And Vicki said, you can't change your management like you do your furniture. Great advice! So true! But it took me a while to learn this. How did I learn? Trial and error (luckily not too much error, thus far). And I still have so much to learn. You don't have a whole lifespan of knowledge in 3 years like you do with those having goats for 30 years! On the other hand, like I said previously, sometimes those with 30 years experience, don't have one iota with what really works. You really have to trust those that you are learning from. And sometimes, pick and choose the advice. Because the advice varies.

And hopefully, those on here, new or old, will post what they did for "their problem" and then follow up with the results.

Crap. Too long of a post. Sorry.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's a catch 22 for us also. We got out on a very thin limb telling you what to do, then your vet tells you that your copper is high, we all of a sudden become a liability to your herd when you find out how high your copper will be when they tell you about the problems associated with cooper overdosing. There are 12,000 of my posts, thousands from Lee and and and and...our starting points for new folks are well documented, when new folks then want to tweak so soon, when they come on not even knowing what they are using what drug, what mineral for, they read it somewhere and have it....that doesn't help anyone and it is when accidents happen.

Your buying your goats from somebody, certainly if local you not only were impressed enough with their goats to purchase them but impressed with their management enough to be following and tweaking their 'local to you management'? I would certainly hope that at least some of these breeders are giving back to their customers??


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

It is an evolution. I know I have googled and read lot's of Vicki's posts on here and other forums before I joined. After joining I realize she's revised some positions. What she wrote 10 years ago may not be what she would write now. It's tricky. I had *very* bad luck with NDs (parasite and severe mineral deficiency issues) while my minis did just fine under the same management in the same herd. I decided after four years to specialize in minis and sell the NDs. I know some people find them very hardy though. What was it? I think the particular genetic package I had just didn't work with my land and my management. I really want animals that can take their minerals orally. That may be stiff-necked of me, but that is a goal I have. I think my minis can do it. But I'm moving, so things may change as we try to adapt to a new locale.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> I really want animals that can take their minerals orally. That may be stiff-necked of me, but that is a goal I have. I think my minis can do it.


It all depends on what you will settle for and what your goals are. 
I said for years I just want healthy milk goats regardless of appearance. 
I do now have some years of experimentation under my belt but the first decade I milked any old thing that lived long enough to give milk and only learned slowly with no internet and few books and no mentors other than cattle breeders. So...once you take a chocolate LaMancha with red skirts and turn it into the most glossy short coated solid black goat ever -you really have to think about what else is being affected in the total function of the animal by the deficiency that caused that physical appearance.



> "you have to do what's right for your herd"


 Cindy that is lawyer talk...you know ...just in case :/
I personally came to the conclusion that there is no reason not to use the tools that make healthy goats happen and I mentor my buyers the very same way. There are better bloodlines for sure- there are more show worthy animals and those that make more milk but my focus has always been health and it shows in a uniformly healthy herd. It is so easy why fight it? They are using my stock in the same area so why not use my management? I am pleased to offer them both animals that will thrive and the help to make sure they do.



> we all of a sudden become a liability to your herd


I tend to believe that people know how to gather info and use it if it relates to a topic they are interested in and they can learn to discard what does not work for them. Why should they have to suffer the misery of trial and error I did in the decades it took me to learn things I can present in a few sentences? Most of it is in college textbooks and agri research journals anyway. I really don't see any liability in trying to help goats be healthy. 
Besides- just try and get a process server past 3 very territorial Anatolians :biggrin

Glad to know your evolving management is getting such good results Anita-thanks for sharing.
Lee


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm so glad my questions have raised this conversation. I am learning so much!! One more question, is everyone else having problems finding vitamin b? I can't find it anywhere, jeffers is even back ordered. I had to buy it in paste form, has anyone used it like that?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

dm9960 said:


> I'm so glad my questions have raised this conversation. I am learning so much!! One more question, is everyone else having problems finding vitamin b? I can't find it anywhere, jeffers is even back ordered. I had to buy it in paste form, has anyone used it like that?


I know it was a problem a few months ago, but I thought it was resolved. Have you checked your local feed store? Did a quick search: enasco has it.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I got nutritional yeast from the health food store and fed it. It seemed to work as well as the injections have worked for me in the past.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

There was a problem with the manufacturer and it could not be found anywhere for a bit. Recently, though it has come back into existence...I found some at my local farm store about a month ago.


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

thanks, I still can't find it at the feed stores here, and when I did an order at jeffers, it said indefinite back order for every kind of vit b except the paste


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