# For those following the Sable battle....



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

What Exactly Happened at Convention?
Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:32 am (PST) . Posted by: "Carolyn Menzies" cornerstonecottagecreamery For those of you wondering who made what motions and what happened at Convention re the Sable issue, here is a section of the minutes, please note that a couple people suggested it be referred to comittee for a change like this, and that did not happen. Please also note that the reference to a "survey of Saanan breeders" which was held up as the primary reason for the change, as if all the Saanan folk wanted this change made (because those who did this feel the Sable breeders have no interest or right of say in what happens to their breed apparently, that this only affects Saanans).

Once Again, folks, please remember they are the same breed, they started as the same breed and still are the same breed. Genetically and otherwise. Please visit our history page to read how the first imports of Saanans were specifically chosen for color genes close up because they were worried that so much white might lead to albinism. Those genes for color are still there and will always be there. This is not like comparing Nigerians to La Manchas, it is simply a different color Saanan.

I have in my hands the surveys in question which had exactly seven respondants, and the survey mentioned in the minutes is listed below the minutes for your review as well.

This is what has changed our breed folks, and it could have been any breed.

If you are as outraged by the following as many of Sable and Saanan breeders who never even saw this "survey" are, please visit the ISBA website at
http://internationalsablebreedersassociation.vpweb.com/Welcome.html

and voice your concerns in our comments page, and if you would like sign our petition to ADGA have this recinded, please either email through the ISBA website your name, ADGA farm name, breed or breeds of goats you have and district or state in which your reside, or you can also email that information to me personally and I will get it on the list.

From page 631-648 2012 convention minutes

20 MR. P. CASSETTE: Henning?
21 MS. HENNING: If I could just elaborate
22 a little bit on that, the feeling of the Saanen
23 breeders -- and we did a survey in our Saanen new
24 second quarter, and the feeling of the Saanen
25 breeders is that all offspring of Saanen to
0636
1 Saanen breeders, Saanen to Saanen of color should
2 go into the experimental registry just as any
3 other breed would, and that any Saanen to Sable
4 offspring should also go in the experimental
5 registry, just as the policy is for any other
6 cross-breeding.
7 MR. P. CASSETTE: So, Betty, for
8 clarification, you are making the motion that
9 we're going to treat the Saanen-Sable just like
10 we treat all of the rest of them, and that's
11 both.
12 Tom Considine?
13 MR. T. CONSIDINE: Betty, just so I'm
14 clear, is this a motion that is not going to have
15 any committee input and that the Board of
16 Directors can make this decision and make it
17 2015 -- January 1, 2015? Is that your motion.
18 MS. HENNING: It's up to the board, what
19 they wish to do about it.
20 MR. T. CONSIDINE: That's not the
21 question.
22 MS. HENNING: My motion is that we do
23 it -- we pass it now and that it takes effect on
24 January 1st, 2015.
25 MR. P. CASSETTE: Saum?
0637
1 MS. SAUM: Of course, I seconded it so
2 I'm going to speak in favor of the motion today.
3 The Saanen breeders, prior to the
4 acceptance of the Sable herdbook, did two surveys
5 in their news and events. Both surveys did not
6 want our animals taken into another database. We
7 are asking the board now, for a third time, for
8 the same thing.
9 The Sable breed has been around awhile
10 now. They started registering in 2005. That
11 gave them ten years to get their seed base even
12 out of the Saanen herdbook, and they can affect
13 our herdbook without us -- without our knowledge.
14 I don't think any of you who are
15 breeding your own breed would like to have
16 another breed be able to affect your herdbook.
17 And the Saanens are asking for the same
18 consideration.
19 MR. P. CASSETTE: I was at Altheide.
20 MR. ALTHEIDE: Yeah. Because this issue
21 came up when the herdbook was first approved, and
22 at that time, there was a lot of disappointment
23 among the Saanen breeders that they had no
24 choice. They felt that they were losing the
25 genetics by mandating that is mismarked Saanen
0638
1 from a -- kid from a Saanen to Saanen breeding
2 was automatically made a Sable, where they felt
3 it should have gone into the experimental
4 herdbook like any other mismarked animal.
5 MR. P. CASSETTE: Tom Considine?
6 MR. T. CONSIDINE: As a Saanen breeder
7 and a Sable breeder, I'm not opposed to this, but
8 I am opposed that we're sort of bypassing a
9 committee and registration, that I think could
10 probably digest it better than us right around
11 here making a decision like that. So I guess I
12 would make a motion to refer this, but -- I know
13 that, but, I mean, I'm just saying that would be
14 my preference.
15 MR. P. CASSETTE: There's no reason why
16 the board, if they wanted to, could make a motion
17 to refer it. That's totally proper, but you
18 do -- for the items that's before you under
19 discussion, but right now we have that motion,
20 which is the effective date by Betty.
21 Tom Considine?
22 MR. T. CONSIDINE: Well, then I would
23 make that motion to refer to the registration
24 committee and to have that decision, you know,
25 for us next year.
(end of topic in meeting minutes)

Note:
The motion to have this decision referred, and decided on time, as it was prior published to be discussed in 2013, did not carry and the motion to close the Sable migration from Saanan to Sable was passed and is at present set to be effective as of 2015 as a direct result of this interchage at convention.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Below is the "official"; Survey that was represented above as "the feeling of the saanan breeders is....": 
This was misrepresented above as a majority of saanan breeders wanted this change, and was as a result the impetus for changing this breed standard and the rulebook.

From the 25th page of the saanan news quarterly, issue2nd quarter, 2012 issue: here is the survey, and here are the SEVEN Answers and who answered them received that were held up as the reason for the change at convention.

(Directly quoted from NSBA Newsletter 2012)

"SAANEN&#8230;. SABLE&#8230;.. EXPERIMENTAL?
The question was: Would you like the ADGA Board of Directors to close the path from the Saanen to Sable herdbook and reinstate the policy that offspring with color from two Saanen par-ents and all offspring from Saanen/Sable parents are registered Experimental?
Comments Received:

Lauren Acton, Herd Manager, Des Ruhigestelle Saanens
I really don't care where a colored Saanen goes, whether to Sable or to Experimental. I do care intensely about whether or not it comes back to the Saanen herdbook. I will not support any measure which detracts from Saanens being `big white goats.' That is the breed standard, and I see no reason to change it. We don't need the color genetics back. There is no need to `save' those animals from being `lost.' So, as long as the standard of three generations of correct color is met before they are allowed back, the same as any other breed, I'm fine. Sure, sometimes an animal will change, or be on the cusp of the standard. That has been true for as many years as there has been a breed standard. That's what a `Standard' is, a line on which one side is acceptable, the other side is not. It implies that there will be animals on both sides. We don't need to change the standard for animals which don't meet it. They have been and will always be there, and changing the standard won't change that. Until now, they haven't been a major impact on the breed, but give them recognition and they will come out of the woodwork. I had hoped that the Sable breed would absorb them, but apparently that hasn't been the case. My fear is that recognizing them will open a door to `recognizing&#39; color in the breed as acceptable. Just because it is there does not mean that it is good or even acceptable. I'm not sure why the hue and cry over the color issue is continuing. Where will it end? I don't hear of other breeds trying to demean their standards. What if there was a push for `Painted Oberhasli'? Those mismarks are out there just as the colored Saanens are, yet they are simply dealt with and we don't hear of issues with the Ober standard. As a Saanen breeder, I want to keep my white goats white. I have supported Sables, only because I will not stand in the way of other people doing as they wish, as long as it doesn't affect my breed. I wish they could reciprocate and leave the Saanen breed standard alone.

Robin Saum, Snowflake
I am in favor of closing the link between the Sable and Saanen Herd Books. I would like for colored offspring of Saanen parents to be placed in the Experimental Herd Book.

Lisa Shepard, Chispa
Yes!

Joan Bowen, Anthem
I am opposed to registering white kids out of sable parents as Saanens, and I am opposed to registering colored offspring out of Saanen parents as [Sables.] I think that colored kids out of white Saanens should have to go through 3 generations of color to get into the sable herdbook just like any other "American"; breed, and if they need the Experimental category for this, then use it. Otherwise put them in the recorded grades. If sable Saanens had bred true, we wouldn't have this problem. Wes Nor-feldt and Don West tried for 25 years to get sables to breed true and they had commercial dairies to utilize the white kids out of colored parents. Maybe if sables had to meet breed standard for 3 generations like other breeds do, then they would breed true for color. Why should sables be treated differently than other breeds? One cannot register offspring from a LaMancha, Togg, Oberhasli, Alpine or Nubian that doesn't meet breed standard, so why should sables be different. Wishing that the color would breed true will not make it happen.

Amy Keach, Keach Manor
Yes, I support the fact that Sable offspring should be sent to the ER.

Charity Green, Lion's Gate
Please put us down for a YES.I do think ADGA should have kept the sable as experimental because of all the colors coming up in the shows now.

Elizabeth Henning, Springfield Oaks
Yes. Colored offspring of Saanens should go to the Experimental Registry, and Sables should be required to meet breed standards for a minimum of three generations to enter the Sable herdbook. They should also be required to meet the percent-age requirements for does (87.5% Sable) and bucks (93.75% Sable) as is the case for entering the American Registry for all other breeds per 2012 Guidebook, p.40, note 2.


----------



## lorit (May 10, 2010)

Interesting - T Considine is the only one I "hear" with a sense of what is right with regards to procedure. And the 7 respondees to the survey contain some "influential" goat people so is it any wonder? I don't have saanens or sables but I HATE politics.


----------



## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

I don't have Saanens either, but I'm just wondering something. Why does it really matter what color they are? If they are PURE bred from registered parents, what difference does it really make if the kids have color? If a kid has color, put it in the Sable coloring, if it is pure white, put in the the White coloring. Why is there even 2 registries? If they are the SAME BREED of goat, just different colors, why is there such an up-roar just because of the color? What happens if there is a kid that is born white but has sable colored splashes of color? What then, do you start a new registry for Sable Spotted Saanens? :rofl

I just don't get it.... :crazy


----------



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

It seems that Tom Considine tried several times to stress that the procedure to pass the motion was either incorrect or at least unethical and that he was just completely ignored. 

My opinion: Saanen should be white, keep the breed standard. Colored kids should go to the Sable herdbook, so I think the 'inbox' should stay open. The fact that color pops up in Saanen does not come from the past 10 yrs of breeding, it's been popping since the first Saanen breeders in Switzerland had that obnoxiuos neighbor with a proud Alpine buck :biggrin (I guess???) Anyway, in order to get RID of color, I believe that all kids out of Sables, no matter what their color is, even if they are white, should stay in that Sable herdbook. He/she carries that color gene and needst to stay out of the Saanen herdbook.

Did I hear it correctly that there was enough 'what-the-whoop?' about this decision that they are going to vote again after asking the breeders?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Exactly what I just said in the District 6 news feed.....if it had been Betty Lou and Mary as the 7 people wanting this to happen, and not ex Presidents of ADGA and directors (who I will not vote for again if they do not recant what they have done) this would have NEVER happened. To stick sables into recorded grade for all these decades and then to have the balls to say..................... 

9 The Sable breed has been around awhile
10 now. They started registering in 2005. That
11 gave them ten years to get their seed base even
12 out of the Saanen herdbook, and they can affect
13 our herdbook without us
.............................................

Nonsense. You add that this was done with ZERO input of Breed Standards committee that put this together, zero input from sable breeders, zero input from these directors voting base...us the membership! This is right up there with directors who will not bring forward redistricting for the betterment of ADGA, because they may lose their precious seat, nothing is done for ADGA it is done for the clout it gives you being a director period anymore. They do not want to go back to being a small fish in a large pond if districts lose 1 or 2 directors which would save ADGA money. 

The was planned, it was in motion before convention, kept secret so nobody would complain, railroaded through and now with the typical 24 hour news cycle, they are hoping it will be forgotten.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Here's an idea - why do Sables have to be colored? Why not register the white offspring of sable parents as Sable too? So Sable could be a colored and white, and Saanen could just be white. I know that doesn't solve the problem of not being able to pull genetics from the Saanens or the problem of how this was done. Just a thought.


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Qz Sioux said:


> I don't have Saanens either, but I'm just wondering something. Why does it really matter what color they are? If they are PURE bred from registered parents, what difference does it really make if the kids have color? If a kid has color, put it in the Sable coloring, if it is pure white, put in the the White coloring. Why is there even 2 registries? If they are the SAME BREED of goat, just different colors, why is there such an up-roar just because of the color? What happens if there is a kid that is born white but has sable colored splashes of color? What then, do you start a new registry for Sable Spotted Saanens? :rofl
> I just don't get it.... :crazy


Because white color is part of their breed definition. It would be like a dish faced nubian. A convex nose is part of the breed definition. It doesn't truly matter for much more than looks, but it's part of the breed definition. A spotted saanen is a sable. They can have white, they just can't be solid white/cream.

Of course, my understanding is a sable is by definition a colored saanen! So to stop allowing sables to be put in the sable registry seems utterly stupid to me, though I have no saanens or sables. The only thing I would NOT want, were I a saanen breeder, is white kids of sable animals going right back to saanen, they should have to go through the experiment,grade, American breed up to go back in like with any other non breed standard animal.

This is stupid and kinda scary if I'm understanding it right. I'm really not understanding their motive here?


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Sounds like there are some old toots that only ever wanted to cull all the colored genes out, and want no association with the sable breed at all. That's why I'm suggesting, don't let the white sables back in the Saanen book by any route, just allow them to stay in the sable breed. But why not keep letting the sables draw from the Saanen genetics as long as it is a one way migration? I'm sure I'm missing something though.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

They are both saanens back to their very DNA. Why Sables should be IN the Saanen herd book with a color designation and no discrimination period. But will they do that, oh hell no. Vicki


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Another thing, the lamancha breed was accepted in the 50's right? Yet the herd book is still open. Why would they limit the foundation of the Sable breed so much more strictly, if that were the goal? Which of course, is silly, since a sable is simply a colored Saanen, not really a seperate breed.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

The trouble seems to me that the "new breed" is really the all white Saanen. They are wanting to cull all the color genes, so why shouldn't they have to pull their gene pool out, not the other way around?


----------



## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Lol, I only have one registered goat out of the eight I have. But here's my opinion. I think that the Sable should have their own separate breed registry where color is fine, of course. White kids out of this Sable breed should NOT be allowed into the Saanen registry since the goal is color, they could potentially contaminate or dilute the saanen white color goal. White kids from Sable registered parents should just be Sable registered also, they are breeding stock and could very well just throw all colored kids in the future. Maybe their papers could just simply be branded as breeding stock and not be eligible for showing to encourage color breeding or be allowed to show, so what. A color breed can lose quality in other areas. I also think that all throwback colored kids from Saanens should be eligible for Sable registration. Saanen breeders should be allowed to breed true to color I guess since they're grandfathered in.

This sounds a lot like what the Appaloosa and Paint horse breeders have dealt with.


----------



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

2013 - 2005= 8. Do the directors not know basic math? 

That survey was soooooo one sided and predjudiced. How unbecoming for such a respected organization. I will never vote for Cassette again, even if he is from Maine.

I think the colored Saanens should be Sables, the white regular Saanens. Same breed, different color requirements. I much prefer the Sables, I personally wouldn't want a herd of all white goats, I like variety!


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I loved a private email I got. You all know I really am not a fan of spotted nubians, if I can help it I don't choose to keep them and never had that much color until recently (Like 3 years ago). So lets get spotted Nubians out of the Nubian herdbook. Then 8 years later close them off from adding any of our purebred Nubians to their herdbook, we will just go back to killing spotted nubians like we have for decades. When they don't get spots out of their breedings those soild colored Nubians go into experimental. Anyone want to join me??? :rofl

This is nothing more or less the embarrassment of some breeders that their bloodlines are color carriers, a dark little secret they have for decades tried to sweep under the rug....under the compost pile really. Vicki


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Okay:

First I have to say that Saanens are white/cream. Period. Do not rewrite the Saanen breed standard. This is not what is up for discussion anyway. 

Currently:

Saanens X Saanen that result in a colored kid = Sable
Saanen X Sable that results in a colored kid = Sable
Sable X Sable that results in a colored kid = Sable

Saanen X Saanen that results in a white kid = Saanen
Saanen X Sable that results in a white kid = Experimental
Sable X Sable that results in a white kid = Experimental

If you get an Experimental, you must breed it up to your preferred animal (Saanen or Sable or Alpine or...) just like everyone else.

What they want to change is that they don't want the first two to hold anymore. Saanen X Saanen or Saanen X Sable that results in a colored kid they want to go into Experimental. This means that all of the buck kids will be lost to the Sable herd book, and of course, will take a long time to get those doe kids back up to a Sable.

The above is the discussion part.

The rest is HOW it was handled, and it seems that that did not follow normal procedure (even if it was technically within the by-laws, it is not how ADGA has handled these things in the past). And that is what has everyone screaming.

BTW, by 2015, there will be 10 years. But no one put a time limit on Sables at the beginning - I would think that it would depend on how much time they needed, as the herd book began to fill and the breed progressed.



> Anyway, in order to get RID of color, I believe that all kids out of Sables, no matter what their color is, even if they are white, should stay in that Sable herdbook. He/she carries that color gene and needst to stay out of the Saanen herdbook.


White kids out of Sables land in the experimental herdbook as they don't meet breed standard for Sables. (And they have never been allowed straight into the Saanen herd book). Sable breeders don't have a problem with this. However, if someone wants to breed a Sable back up to a Saanen (the old-fashioned way, just like any other Experimental), then you can do that, and should be allowed to do that. You can breed Saanen X Alpine (for example)and if you get a white kid and it meets the rest of breed standard, you put it into the Saanen Experimental book and then breed back up to American Saanen. And yes there will be a color carrying gene in that American Saanen (that has a Sable parent(s) in its' pedigree somewhere, just like there would be with the Saanen X Alpine animal.

The issue is whether a black kid from a Saanen to Saanen breeding or Saanen to Sable breeding can go directly into the Sable herd book. Right now they can.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Camille did you know they were doing this at convention? Curious as to why you did not comment on this during your breed associations poll? Are you a member? Do you know how many members they have?

And it is the Saanen breeders who reworte the Sannen breed standard to exclude their colored genes, hence the Sables in recorded grade all these decades. Vicki


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

I did not know that this was coming up at Convention - we do not breed Sables anymore, so we are not "in the loop" as it were. However, we know many people that do breed Sables, and no one mentioned that a big topic was coming up at Convention. And you know goat breeders, everything is interesting to us (as is evidenced on this thread). So as far as I know, not much advance notice about it. The president of ISBA and the officers all claim that they were never notified, and I have no reason to doubt their honesty.

I did not see the survey (I was not a member at the time, but I am now) but the survey seems to be about whether white Sables can go directly into the Saanen herd book, not about whether or not colored Saanens can go directly into the Sable book (which is what was voted on and passed at Convention). Kind of confusing having the survey posted with the Convention notes as there are two different issues there.

I will continue to support Saanens as White/cream only. I will be adamantly opposed to having white kids from Sable parents, whether one or two, able to register directly as Saanens. Which, I believe is what the 7 Saanen breeders polled were expressing. Lauren Acton states how I feel- no problem having Sables and getting to register the colored kids from Saanen to Saanen breedings as Sables. As was originally set up. If the impetus is to start criss-crossing (ie, let white Sable kids back as American Saanens right out the gate) then I can see why Saanen breeders would rather cut the connection altogether. Those animals should have to breed back up just like any other breed. 

If Sable breeders would just like to have things remain the same as they were, then I don't have a problem with that. The Saanen breeders are helping the Sable breeders in this regard - ie, more genetics available.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Yes, let's throw out the moon spotted Nubians, they are gaudy. We've got two votes, so we're good to go! :lol


----------



## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> They are both saanens back to their very DNA. Why Sables should be IN the Saanen herd book with a color designation and no discrimination period. But will they do that, oh hell no. Vicki


See, that is what I'm talking about. If they are the SAME breed, just different colors, why have any discrimination at all...Just mark any that are not white, as Sable Saanen or Sable spotted Saanen? Are there any discrimination with Saanens in other countries? What about the country they originated from? :sigh


----------



## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> I loved a private email I got. You all know I really am not a fan of spotted nubians, if I can help it I don't choose to keep them and never had that much color until recently (Like 3 years ago). So lets get spotted Nubians out of the Nubian herdbook. Then 8 years later close them off from adding any of our purebred Nubians to their herdbook, we will just go back to killing spotted nubians like we have for decades. When they don't get spots out of their breedings those soild colored Nubians go into experimental. Anyone want to join me??? :rofl
> 
> This is nothing more or less the embarrassment of some breeders that their bloodlines are color carriers, a dark little secret they have for decades tried to sweep under the rug....under the compost pile really. Vicki


No, no, no :nooo ..... I would love to have a spotted Nubian :sniffle I like them all colors. BUT, I'm not going to buy a goat just for the color!


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Qz Sioux said:


> Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:
> 
> 
> > They are both saanens back to their very DNA. Why Sables should be IN the Saanen herd book with a color designation and no discrimination period. But will they do that, oh hell no. Vicki
> ...


How about we just mark Nubians with airplane ears as having airplane ears?

How about pure red Toggs just get a designation on their pedigrees?

Because they do NOT meet breed standards.

Colored Saanens (later called Sables) never met breed standard and most were delegated to the meat market back in the day. Some breeders liked that color with the excellent milk genetics, so lobbied for a "new" breed - which was then designated by ADGA. Whether it makes sense or not, that is what they did. But that does not mean that we should change the breed standard for Saanens.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

So we will just go back to pretending the sables aren't born in every single saanen herd again....so much for progress. I thought, finally the Sannen folks have gotten over themselves.

Nobody is going to change the breed standards for Sannens, and someone who doesn't even breed Saanens should never have a say. But 7 people should not be able to sway ADGA into changing precedent over ADGA policy and the Sables, hard fought through committee, herdbook without their knowledge either. And once again if those 7 people had been just Larry Moe and Curly ADGA members, nothing would have been done. That is what irks me more than anything else. Who was allowed to do this.

What breed is next?


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Are there purebred Nubians that show up with airplane ears? I guess the trouble for me in understanding the issue from the Saanen point of view is the things that would disqualify a purebred Nubian would be actual structural defects or evidence the gene pool was polluted by an outside breed.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I was wondering the same thing... about how other countries handle Saanens of color? 
But I think the whole point of this thread is to bring out the fact that there is some ADGA rule breaking going on so higher-ups can just bulldoze through with their own plans.


----------



## lorit (May 10, 2010)

I see Camille's point but as she started out with - there really are two issues at play here. We as ADGA members should address them individually and IN ORDER. First, remove the poorly executed board action and refer the "real" issue to committee where they (hopefully with proper input) can actually address the breed standards and books issue.

I totally get breed standards - they've been around for a long time. Should they be looked at occassionally? But all this uproar isn't really about the standard - it is about the run around that the board did. Fix that and I'll bet lots of folks wouldn't be nearly so passionate about the issue.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes fix the board issue. Redo their order. If the SABLE breeders want a change to THEIR registration that ADGA unanimously voted yes on and that Breed Standards helped write.....then take it back to Breed Standards BY the SABLE breeders to do what they want to do with THEIR herdbook.

To base anything on what 7 Saanen breeders want? No. Vicki


----------



## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

The people I was with at Convention were upset by ADGA's decision. Our main concern was that this happened without input from Sable breeders or any district input before the vote. It seems sneaky and underhanded.
The one and only Saanen I ever owned was a color carrier. Her first breeding, I bred her back to her sire. The result was a black buckling. This was back when all Sables were experimentals, so the little buck went for meat. This was a real shame as Angel went on to become a champion. I'd hate for us to lose more lovely bucks like that to the butcher.
I'm one of those people who thinks of Saanens and Sables as the same breed, because that is actually what they are. Somewhere along the line, someone decided they wanted all Saanens to be white. I find alot of this interesting because, unlike froo-froo dog and cat breeds which are mostly decorative pets, dairy goats are mainly bred for function. Color has no bearing on a goat's ablility to produce milk or offspring.
Years ago, I was into studying cat breeds and I showed cats on occasion. CFA breeders developed new breeds and those new breeds had to meet requirements before being accepted into the registry. The Himalayan was developed by breeding the Persian to the Siamese and refining the breed to have a cat with the flat face, cobby body and long coat of the Persian and the color of the Siamese. When the breed was first accepted, the rules were pretty much like our current ones for Saanen and Sable. If you bred a Persian to a Himalayan, colorpoint offspring were registered as Himalayans. Solid color cats were neutered and sold as pets. These solid color cats could never be bred up to either breed, but could be shown as household pets at shows. Alot of lovely cats were unable to be registered back then. Rather than moving backward like ADGA seems to be doing, CFA moved forward, designating Himalayans as Colorpoint Persians in their registry. Breeders can now cross the colorpoints and solids and register all the resulting animals worth keeping in the gene pool.


----------



## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

The part of this that I'm not understanding is that if Sables are registered out of Saanen X Saanen breedings doesn't it essentially remove them from the Saanen gene pool? Can Sable offspring migrate back into the Saanen herdbook if they are white?

If there is overwhelming support for amending the rules then it should not be an issue to do so by following normal procedure.

I don't know enough about this issue to stand on one side or the other aside from the procedural problem, but I do want to point out that ears are no more a structural defect than color in terms of milk production, health, or longevity. I know, because my goats don't have any. :lol


----------



## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

If a white goat is born to two Sable parents, she is recorded as an experimental that conforms to the Saanen standard. Bred to correct colored Saanen bucks, the white offspring can be bred three generations to American Saanens.
The ear thing is a whole different thing than color. I've never heard of airplane eared kids born to two Nubians. This would be an indication that another breed buck sired the kids. It would not be appropriate for these goats to be registered as Nubians. They are mixed breed and are recorded as grades/experimentals.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

goatkid said:


> The ear thing is a whole different thing than color. I've never heard of airplane eared kids born to two Nubians. This would be an indication that another breed buck sired the kids. It would not be appropriate for these goats to be registered as Nubians. They are mixed breed and are recorded as grades/experimentals.


Exactly, it is strong evidence of the goat is not pure Nubian. Or there are those goats with ears set improperly - that we've been talking about in relation to G6S, and those are a structural defect in my opinion.


----------



## Sans Gene Goats (May 15, 2011)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Yes fix the board issue. Redo their order. If the SABLE breeders want a change to THEIR registration that ADGA unanimously voted yes on and that Breed Standards helped write.....then take it back to Breed Standards BY the SABLE breeders to do what they want to do with THEIR herdbook.
> 
> To base anything on what 7 Saanen breeders want? No. Vicki


 :yeahthat


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

> Lauren Acton, Herd Manager, Des Ruhigestelle Saanens
> I really don't care where a colored Saanen goes, whether to Sable or to Experimental. I do care intensely about whether or not it comes back to the Saanen herdbook. I will not support any measure which detracts from Saanens being `big white goats.' That is the breed standard, and I see no reason to change it. We don't need the color genetics back. There is no need to `save' those animals from being `lost.' So, as long as the standard of three generations of correct color is met before they are allowed back, the same as any other breed, I'm fine.


The first survey answer: The breeder doesn't care where the colored Saanen goes, so actually you have 6 breeders who expressed their opinion that they would like the direct migration from Saanen to Sable to close. And those were just opinions (and they should be free to express those). The fact is, that the BOD voted on this issue without following standard procedure. Are you telling me that the ADGA Board of Directors is that naive that they thought that 6 breeders was the consensus? And the fact that 1 of those 6 was the one making the motion, you really only had 5 breeders that could be "supporting evidence"?

So don't blame the Saanen breeders in the survey - they are entitled to their opinions.

And for those who aren't aware, there have been problems in registering Sables that later turn white or white kids that later turn Sable as they mature (we have seen that firsthand). And if a goat was white and then turned Sable, what does that do to the kids
grandkids etc. Bucks have been collected and semen sold and then the goat has been re-registered, leaving the offspring in a limbo as to what their designation is. ADGA definitely needs to address that issue and handle it better.


----------



## nlhayesp (Apr 19, 2012)

Since I don't have saanens or sables, my opinion doesn't matter. However, why all this drama anyways for the same genetic animal? Look at how the AKC has "ruined" so many breeds of dogs by setting breed standards that has caused so much inbreeding and with it all of the genetic problems associated with it. Try to find a "good" Irish Setter or a lab without hip displasia. We owned Dobermans for years; and while I loved the breed, I would never do it again because every single one had "issues" because of the massive inbreeding to obtain and maintain the breed. Why would anyone cull a perfectly good goat because it is the "wrong" color? Since when does the color determine the dairiness of a goat? All of the other breeds have their color variations. Why can't the white goat be the color "saanen" and any other variety be "sable" of the same class? Or for you purists, do they cull a saanen when she delivers a sable "bastard"?


----------



## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

nlhayesp said:


> Since I don't have saanens or sables, my opinion doesn't matter. However, why all this drama anyways for the same genetic animal? Look at how the AKC has "ruined" so many breeds of dogs by setting breed standards that has caused so much inbreeding and with it all of the genetic problems associated with it. Try to find a "good" Irish Setter or a lab without hip displasia. We owned Dobermans for years; and while I loved the breed, I would never do it again because every single one had "issues" because of the massive inbreeding to obtain and maintain the breed. Why would anyone cull a perfectly good goat because it is the "wrong" color? Since when does the color determine the dairiness of a goat? All of the other breeds have their color variations. Why can't the white goat be the color "saanen" and any other variety be "sable" of the same class? Or for you purists, do they cull a saanen when she delivers a sable "bastard"?


Exactly. Why, if they are the same DNA breed, just different colors, would you want to make them into different breeds? Same DNA tells me they are the same breed, so justify the colors as you stated. I'll stick to Nubians. No color issues there :biggrin If I choose to go with another breed, hmm, maybe Alpine since they have color but no one cares if they are solid or not.

I hope this gets resolved. I do think that the breeders should do something about the BOD having the say all in the decisions. It really isn't up to the BOD to take it upon themselves to make that decision anyway.

On the Doberman issue...I had an "old" style red dobie and I loved him. I have been to several shows and over the years have seen how they have turned the breed from a rock solid work dog into a feminine over sized chihuahua. Sad. And that isn't the only breed that has been done to. The Border Collie breeders wouldn't allow the AKC to register their dogs for the longest time because they were afraid they (AKC) would put too many standards on them and take out the "work" of the breed.


----------



## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

I can respect breed standards but I dont understand why the need for two separate breeds instead of marking the variety, the genetic pool is the same all you are doing is shrinking it.If its just something that happens then it is what it is. 
A Merle Great Dane isnt desirable but it is still a Great Dane just not one typically bred. New colors are accepted as varieties of breeds in several domesticated species. 

I have a few token Saanens because I do adore their personality but nothings been as exciting as to wait to see what colors the Nubians are going to bring us.


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

You guys are confusing the issues:

As Kathie says:



> The people I was with at Convention were upset by ADGA's decision. Our main concern was that this happened without input from Sable breeders or any district input before the vote. It seems sneaky and underhanded.


The way it was handled is what has most folks in an uproar, whether they are Saanen, Nubian, Togg, LaMancha, Sable, Oberhasli, Nigerian or Alpine breeders. As someone said to me, "If they can do it to the Sables, why can't they do it to my breed?"

The second issue isn't IF they are going to close the direct migration of Saanens to Sables, but _when_. I believe the Sable breeders would like to extend that time period. And of course, at the very least they would like to get input from all breeds involved (Saanens and Sables) and each district before any changes are made. The end result may be the same (those registration issues regarding goats that "change" at the age of 3 or 4 and their offspring still need to be addresses) but at least it would have followed standard procedure.

If you don't like how it was handled, then you need to contact ADGA and let them know.


----------



## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

wheytogosaanens said:


> And for those who aren't aware, there have been problems in registering Sables that later turn white or white kids that later turn Sable as they mature (we have seen that firsthand). And if a goat was white and then turned Sable, what does that do to the kids
> grandkids etc. Bucks have been collected and semen sold and then the goat has been re-registered, leaving the offspring in a limbo as to what their designation is. ADGA definitely needs to address that issue and handle it better.


This brings up something interesting about Angel. She was pure white when I bought her as a baby. She was also pure white every spring. I would clip her for her first show and she was pure white. After being in the sun for a month, her hair had a salt and pepper undertone. One judge asked me how she was registered. American Saanen. She placed at the top of her class in spite of this after other breeders varified she's white until being out in the hot sun with a short clip. Her last breeding was to a cream Nubian buck. Her daughter Miracle is white and never turns colors, same for three of her daughters out of a chamoisee Alpine buck. The daughters look like Saanens.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The second issue isn't IF they are going to close the direct migration of Saanens to Sables, but when.
............................

Being on breed standard when this was adopted I can tell you that this sentence was never part of the equation. There was never anyone saying that this migration would only happen for a year, 5 years, 10 years.... And why stop the migration at only 8 years? To make them as weak of a purebred bloodline as say, oh I don't know, oberhasli? Sure stop the migration of White sables back to Saanen, as Saanen breeders it is your prerogative. But I do not see how stopping the migration of your 'bastard' colored kids (love that Nancy) into Sable hurts your breed....well other than having to admit your white goats don't really breed as true to breed standard as you say?

I don't have a dog in the fight either, my fight is once again, my directors, one of which is a saanen breeder involved with this with an opinion, and the very smart people on the EC who knew this would start a war and did nothing about tabling it. As directors in District 6, I am sure my 3 directors are aware of the fact that we don't really like being railroaded and they should have protested this vote. The facts are clear, 7 breeders were able to change with one motion decades of work done on behalf of the Sable breed (they knew when they put this questionnaire out that it was going to be brought up at convention (it was obviously kept a secret for a reason), and x president, a smattering of directors and big name breeders. You can spin it anyway you please that they are able to have an opinion, fine, but unless that opinion came with Sable acceptance of the proposal and many more than just these supporting the proposal from Saanen breeders....this stinks....if it walks like a duck, it's usually a duck. Words like collusion come to mind. And yes I am very well aware someone copied a post I wrote and forwarded it...forward this one also. Vicki McGaugh 1149061


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Just so no one puts words in my mouth...

I don't have a problem with colored Saanens going straight into the Sable herd book. If that can help another breeder, I am all for it. I am opposed to changing the breed standard of the Saanen. I am sure you can appreciate that.

I agree that the Sable breeders needed to be notified and able to participate in this. Saanen breeders as well. Since I was not part of the NSBA at the time, I am not sure if the breeders polled "knew" that this was for discussion at Convention. Or were they just asked their opinion? The cut and pasted portion of the survey is not clear about this. I am not willing to tar and feather someone for their opinion. 

I do reiterate that if you don't like how this was handled (and most everyone's director went along with this) then you need to notify your director and ADGA.

BTW, if my Saanens throw color I don't mind and am not going to "pretend" about anything. You guys are the ones slinging mud and calling animals "bastards". Are you sure you don't have some kind of dog? And obviously if there is a breed standard of white or cream, then we all know that they may not always breed true to color. Same goes with any color breed. That is why they have a standard. 

Oh, and I have a waiting list of Sable breeders who pray that my does throw color, 'cause they all want first shot at my "colored" kids.  No problem there with me. So far only white, but my colored kids, if I can get them, can carry fat price tags.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Obviously we were teasing with the bastard and colored kids remarks. Vicki


----------



## nlhayesp (Apr 19, 2012)

I used "bastard" tongue in cheek, as it were. I was trying to work "colored" into my post as well in order make my point. I hate politics and this ADGA policy/opinion has an ugly tone. If sables were inferior goats in their conformation, longevity, health, parasite resitance, milk production, fertility, etc., then allow them to pass out of existance. But if they are the same animal as the saanen, only with a different color coat, then they should be treated as the same breed. As a red-head amidst a historical family sea of blondes and brunettes, I am no less or more a genetic equal in my family. A sable is as well a full and equal member of the saanen family and it is absurd for 7-8 saanen breeders and ADGA board members to vote/rule otherwise.


----------



## savannah (Jul 2, 2015)

Well last i heard one of the 2 or 3 people who caused this whole up rise with wanting NO color has passed away... i see this as an opportunity. now i know they wont take me very seriously alone because i'm a senior in high school, and though my sable herd is small right now i have a huge passion for them and Oberhaslis. i'm going to be righting up a letter to send to EVERY ADGA member... on there opinion, thoughts, etc. especial youth members with sables. there numbers are small and if we don't make a change soon then i don't think that this will ever change. you all have another person cheering on your team. i'm going to be making a Facebook page once i get some more info and will post it here for everyone to see. Sables WILL have a promising future.
Savannah


----------



## savannah (Jul 2, 2015)

wheytogosaanens said:


> The first survey answer: The breeder doesn't care where the colored Saanen goes, so actually you have 6 breeders who expressed their opinion that they would like the direct migration from Saanen to Sable to close. And those were just opinions (and they should be free to express those). The fact is, that the BOD voted on this issue without following standard procedure. Are you telling me that the ADGA Board of Directors is that naive that they thought that 6 breeders was the consensus? And the fact that 1 of those 6 was the one making the motion, you really only had 5 breeders that could be "supporting evidence"?
> 
> So don't blame the Saanen breeders in the survey - they are entitled to their opinions.
> 
> ...


by what i understood they didn't say they weren't OK with saanens that had color to go to sable they just don't want it to be apart of the saanen book. correct me if i missed something.
Savannah


----------

