# Strange hoof shape



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Two or three weeks ago, I trimmed hooves and started drying off my doe. Today I went to trim again, and her right front hoof was strange. It smelled funny like a burnt smell. The hoof wall was also flattening out in shape, like a wide bell shape. It isn't hot, or hurting her at all. Any ideas?


----------



## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

Has she been in a wet area alot? after it really rains here ours will "get a smell" but it's usually just gunk that has built up in their hooves. I have to say though that I love trimming feet after we have had a bunch of rain! 

I would also trim up your doe like normal and see if anything looks different, that way you know something might or might not be going on. Remember your doe is still young and developing, she just might be getting thicker hoof walls or you trimmed her feet a little different and didn't notice last time.

Lynn


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Any change in her feeding program? It can be founder, it doesn't have to be an acute attack to ruin her feet. It can be chronic. Vicki


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

I moved her slowly (over about a month) over to medicated feed from her milking ration. She is getting very little medicated feed daily and mainly eating only alfalfa hay at this point. It has been wet in the goat yard, but not in her pen. They spend very little time out in the goat yard when it is wet. I trimmed it and will keep an eye on it. Founder would hurt her wouldn't it?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

There is acute attacks and then there is chronic founder. In an acute attack a doe walks on her knees, her feet are so painful, in chronic founder it is just effecting the laminae of the hoof, you can read up on laminitis/founder. In horses it's systemic (both feet) and mechanical which can be one foot. And is the laminae pulling away from the wall of the hoof, debris then collects, inflammation occurs, the coffin bone literally tips and leaves that claw fatter looking. I have heard it described as bossy toe before, which is nothing more than chronic founder/acidosis in the feet.

It's usually the diet, we have no way of knowing how good our alfalfa hay is out here, huge amounts of grain is fed, high protein again because is the hay 12% or 8%...it's not way to raise ruminants but it what we do. The feet problems are because of this. Why it is so important we don't perpetuate bad feet by no copper bolusing but also purchasing bloodlines who are showing bad feet to begin with. Vicki


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

I read up on it and found this "Heat stress, complications of kidding (mastitis, uterine infection, retained placenta), and pneumonia can lead to Laminitis/Founder."

She had pnemonia about 4 months ago, and she is currently living in crazy heat. Should I drop her off "grain" completely and feed her only hay? I read to soak the hoof in ice water as well.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

When fever is in the hoof, yes soaking it will stop it from doing more damage. The damage has already been done, what you don't want is to repeat the damage and make it worse or let it go into both feet.

Having goats is about growing a rumen, everything we do is about protecting the rumen. Vaccination so you don't get pnemonia and if you do they have immunity to it via high quality colostrum and vaccination to kick it's butt on their own, without antibiotics that then kill more rumen flora along with high fevers. Keeping minerals out of defficiency ranges and doing pelvics, so you don't get uterine infections and retained placentas which take once again antibiotics that kill rumen flora along with the fever that accompany uterine infections. Acidosis, from feeding high proteins and diets high in grain. Vicki


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

http://imgur.com/a


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

I vaccinate for pasteruella, lysigin and cd/t. I provide free choice techmaster plus minerals, I copper bolus, I did a pelvic on her when she kidded, she didn't retain her placenta. It was a easy kidding, but the doeling was dead and had been dead. She hasn't had any fever or problems since she had pnuemonia before she kidded. She never fully came into milk because of the dead doeling. I milked her with no problems getting about a gallon every 2 to 3 days until a while ago when I decided to dry her off. I'm going out of town so I didn't want someone to have to deal with that.

When she was milking I fed a mix of 3/4 crimped oats, 1/4 mix of calf manna, beet pulp and boss. I fed 2 flakes of alfalfa hay per day for 2 milkers. If they needed more hay, they got it. 

Now my two dry yearlings share 2 flakes of hay and 1/2 a horse scoop of medicated goat pellet, daily. 1 flake and 1/4 scoop in the am and 1 flake and 1/4 a scoop in the pm. Sometimes I give them 3 flakes, if they eat the hay really quickly. They basically have free choice hay. This is the amount they tend to eat in a day. 

I've never noticed any hoof or leg pain or heat. Is my management causing problems?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

She has had a case of founder before, likely acidosis, you can see it in the deep ridge on the side of her hoof.

I see no damage to the hoof, if that foot is freshly pared down, you need someone to help you see better how to trim feet. They are not only unlevel from side to side, they have bulged on the heels that need to come down flat. After trimming around the edge with your hoof trimmer you have to use something that flattens down the hoof across the bottom. The red on the right toe is nothing more than if you took it down any further you would be in the quick, which would make her bleed, when I trim feet I get them down to the red quick so their feet stay short and compact, it drives the quick further into the hoof. 

Now get the feet flat, either with a box cutter or plane it down with a hoof plane if you uncomfortable with a box cutter or knife. Ask one of your mentors to trim feet while you watch, it is invaluable to have them do your goats, so you can see the difference.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Unrelated....why would you move yearlings to a meat goat pellet. If for the cocci control, realize they have to eat 1 pound per 30 to 50 pounds of body wieght. Which would mean my yearlings would have to be eating more than 3 pounds of the one I purchase, no way will I let a dry yearling have that much grain....just to keep the bloodlevel of cocci meds up in the blood, what is your dosed at. I do use a meat goat pellet to grow out baby bucks, and since it's here also for my senior bucks since it has ammonium chloride in it. Vicki


----------



## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

Vicki would you please please post a picture of the bottom of one of your goats post trimming, and one of the side the next time you trim. I would love to see how the bottoms and sides of someone one thaat knows a heap more about trimming then I do. I know you aren't that into taking pictures but it would be invaluable for those of us that are not as experienced as yourself.

Thanks


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sure, we trim the first of the month so we start this week, surely I can do someone out in the sun, instead of in the nice cool cemented milk room with the fan running full blast  Vicki


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Sure, we trim the first of the month so we start this week, surely I can do someone out in the sun, instead of in the nice cool cemented milk room with the fan running full blast  Vicki


That would be awesome!


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Ok so she foundered a while back? She is not currently having the issue? Also you're the second person to tell me I'm trimming wrong. I do use a hoof plane, but I guess I'm just not doing it correctly. I'll get a lesson. Thanks!


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Also I'm now giving the dry yearlings 2 flakes of alfalfa in the morning, and 2 flakes of coastal in the evening to share, with no grain. Once they are pregnant (in a month) I'll start feeding them medicated feed again. I guess. I'm just mystified by what to feed. I lost a goat to polio and now I've had one founder. I've got to get this figured out. Being at a boarding stable, maybe someone is feeding them. I've talked to everyone and put up signs, but who knows??? I'm looking for something more private.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Why the medicated feed?


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Because the babies I'm raising (an april kid and a may kid) are on medicated feed, and also I've heard it can be good to feed rumensin to pregnant does. After the kidding season I had last year, I don't want to take a single chance that I don't have to.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

But to get the rumensin to bloodlevel to do anything you have to feed Surefed at 1 pound per 50 pounds of body weight. I do not know how yours is dosed, or the brand you feed, but you really are going to feed yearling dry does 3 pounds or more a day for 150 days, they will be fat as ticks and anything you helped, is not going to outweigh the problems of fat goats, problems for their whole lives. What if it is dosed at 1 pound per 30 pounds, that is 5 pounds for my dry yearlings right now...nope no way no how you should do this, very very bad advice. Vicki


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

What about using the rumensin block instead? Or is there some kind of powder or something maybe that you can sprinkle over food, and that way you don't have to give them a ton of grain to get the meds in them?


----------



## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Personally I'd stay away from the alfalfa. It't my belief that high protein is what causes hoof issues more than anything else and alfalfa hay can be extremely high in protein, sometimes over 20%. If you doe isn't milking, all she needs is grass hay or haygrazer plus one or two pounds of 12-14% protein feed each day. Often horizontal lines can be seen in a goat's feet after periods of stress, changes in feed (upping the protein content, for example), or illnesses that cause a high temperature. 

Many years ago when I was trying to cope with a case of founder in a three-year-old doe, I asked a friend who did his veterinary residency at Belmont racetrack and is now practicing in South Carolina about founder in horses. One thing he told me was that the majority of damage is done before the horse owner has any idea that something is wrong. 

Bev Wallace (4B Nubians) always recommended feeding foundered goats a very low protein diet and I know that when I'm able to feed Jamie Lee apart from the herd for extended periods of time, she's much more comfortable on her front feet because they don't grow so rapidly and unevenly.


----------



## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

And then you have goats fed nothing but alfalfa with no feet problems  feeding goats can be a pain!


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

What do you feed your pregnant dry yearlings? One is a March 2011 doe who has been pregnant before, one is a July 2011 doe who has never been pregnant. They will be bred in July for Christmas Kids. As of today they are on a mix of coastal and alfalfa hay only.


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Caroline, do you feed alfalfa pellets with your hay grazer?


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

tlcnubians said:


> . Often horizontal lines can be seen in a goat's feet after periods of stress, changes in feed (upping the protein content, for example), or illnesses that cause a high temperature.


When she had pneumonia her temp was around 105 for days. I had to fight so hard to get it down. I thought she was a goner


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

My dry yearlings get hay only (alfalfa) until a couple months before freshening. Then I start grain slowwwwly, until they are getting about a lb/day when they freshen. Then it's slowwwwly increased more as they milk more.
My doe kids born this year will stay on their meat goat pellet after breeding and then slowwwly switched to milkstand ration a couple months before freshening.


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> My dry yearlings get hay only (alfalfa) until a couple months before freshening. Then I start grain slowwwwly, until they are getting about a lb/day when they freshen. Then it's slowwwwly increased more as they milk more.
> My doe kids born this year will stay on their meat goat pellet after breeding and then slowwwly switched to milkstand ration a couple months before freshening.


This is what I did last year... only I didn't have dry yearlings. This is my first year with dry yearlings. I bought one, and the other lost her kid and never fully came into milk.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

What I do with yearlings is: When the sr does are heavy bred (late Feb here--due in March) and too fat and miserable to be *too* mean (LOL), I put the yearlings in with them. They have been switched over slooowwwly to milkstand grain from their starter/grower, so they get to share in the sr's grain in the feeders every day. Then when all does (sr's and yearlings) have kidded they get their grain on the stand and I don't put any more in the feeders. So all any dry yearlings get is hay since they're not getting on the stand every day to be milked.


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

JamieH said:


> Because the babies I'm raising (an april kid and a may kid) are on medicated feed, and also I've heard it can be good to feed rumensin to pregnant does. After the kidding season I had last year, I don't want to take a single chance that I don't have to.


I'm lost here. What is the benefit of feeding the rumensin to pregnant does?


----------



## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Cindy - the Rumensin is an ionophore antibiotic that is thought to keep does from aborting that may have been exposed to toxoplasmosis. It's also shown to improve feed utilization, along with being a coccidiostat.

Jamie - we do not feed alfalfa pellets at this time, although we have in the past. We pretty much feed our does the same thing regardless of whether they're bred or dry (gasp!). The only difference is that for those that are in the baby or "tween" pens, we feed a medicated 16% pellet as part of the mix, and for those that have moved to the milker pen (this happens when they're about a year old or have freshened for the first time, whichever comes first), they begin eating an 18% lactation pellet instead of the 16% medicated pellet. During show season the does in the milking group share 2-3 flakes of alfalfa while they're waiting to be milked (right now there are 7 milkers and 2 dry yearlings doing this) and then they have the free-choice haygrazer in their hay rack. Our pasture grass is so high and lush this year that they aren't paying a lot of attention to the haygrazer. I've also started giving them wet beet pulp on the milk stand after they've finished their 1 lb. coffee can of grain mix. This seems to help with milk production during the hot summer months.

Dry yearlings can be a challenge because some, but not all tend to put more weight on than they should. You'll need to monitor them and feed accordingly. This may mean cutting back on their grain until the last six weeks before their due date and then gradually increasing back to what they'll be getting once they kid and begin milking. 

My only experience is with Nubians, not Alpines, Toggs or any of the other dairy breeds . . .


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

My two dry yearlings are not fat, so I'll just monitor them. They are doing fine on just the hay mix for now. Once they are starting to be heavy bred, I'll put them on a lactation pellet mixed with oats. I'll add beet pulp once they are milking, if they need it.


----------

