# st. maure/mold help



## mulish

hello cheesers.
i have been struggling with st. maure/mold covered cheese for months. for this cheese, i have used the ezal cultures from dairy connection - either flora danica or mm100 with the niege/candidum culture, added at the same time, then molded/drained and then aged in the fridge.

previously, i have tried this at room temp for extended period to get the mold started quicker - 36 hours plus @ 70/74 degrees- and have had no success - colored mold and sour as **** cheese inside. in my first attempt, i contaminated my next batch of plain chevre with candidum - it seemed to just get loose in my kitchen somehow.

i tasted a successful batch tonight - about 3 weeks aging - but i realized that i never salted. when do you salt this stuff? the cultures are added, cheese is molded and drained, then salt before aging?

thanks,

jc


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## Sondra

JC send a pm or email to nightskyfarm as she may know the answer to your question. She is new to the forum but a cheese maker and probably does or has tried this where as most of us are novices to cheese making so to speak. This is way beyond my knowledge.


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## buckrun

Did you do it in the long cylinder mold? 
Paula Butler would be another good source of info. She teaches cheesemaking classes.
I have never done mold ripened- figure I have enough of that in my system just living in the south!
Let us know what you learn and how it tastes! I have had it made by Pure Luck near Austin. 
Lee


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## Sharpgoat

Have you seen this web page.
I like to see the process of some one making Cheese.
Fran

http://www3.telus.net/public/hsource/cheesemaking/


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## paulaswrld

Sorry I missed this...I have been insane lately...have you found answers to your questions? If not, feel free to PM me or just bring it back up here and I will be glad to help you as this is a cheese I make often.

Paula


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## mulish

i have not, paula. thanks. i've been making chevre the last couple of weeks instead. i'm also unclear on the turning of this cheese and how long it can be aged. it seems that most of my cheesemaking books/recipes sort of end after the cheese is made.

and, lee, i have been using cheap plastic basket molds for everything this year. they clean well in the dishwasher and my cheese drains fast, which i've found to be crucial in my warm kitchen.

jc


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## linuxboy

You salt a lactic or semi-lactic cheese after molding. You can dry salt or soak in brine. Another option is to drain the cheese, then break it up a little into curds, then salt, and then mold. Each variation achieves a slightly different end product.

You can inoculate with candidum in the milk or spray it on the cheese after molding.

Humidity, temp, and air exchange are vital for bloomy rind cheeses. You need to have high humidity, ~95% at 50-55 degrees. The mold doesn't like moist, so you can't let it touch a solid surface. It needs to rest on a screen of some sort with air circulation. 

How are you aging these in the fridge? What happens with candidum is that the cheese starts out sour, but as the mold grows, the cheese actually becomes more basic. You need to age the cheese in such a way that the mold grows, but not too quickly, that way the cheese outsides can slowly liquify as the mold grows. That process needs a steady temp and humidity, and also salt.


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## buckrun

Thanks for that great rundown on the process.
More is better- keep posting!
Lee


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## Sondra

Thanks Pav for helping us out on this. Do hope you keep helping us novices


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## linuxboy

mulish said:


> hello cheesers.
> i have been struggling with st. maure/mold covered cheese for months. for this cheese, i have used the ezal cultures from dairy connection - either flora danica or mm100 with the niege/candidum culture, added at the same time, then molded/drained and then aged in the fridge.
> 
> previously, i have tried this at room temp for extended period to get the mold started quicker - 36 hours plus @ 70/74 degrees- and have had no success - colored mold and sour as **** cheese inside. in my first attempt, i contaminated my next batch of plain chevre with candidum - it seemed to just get loose in my kitchen somehow.
> 
> i tasted a successful batch tonight - about 3 weeks aging - but i realized that i never salted. when do you salt this stuff? the cultures are added, cheese is molded and drained, then salt before aging?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> jc


Aging at a temp of 70 will explode the mold population. Your cheese should be covered in under 5 days. That is too fast if you maintain it and may cause some off flavors. If you have off color mold, it means there's contamination. Likely because you didn't salt the rind enough or you had some airborne mold land on the surface. The salt acts as a preservative on the rind, but the white mold actually likes some salt.

How long are you aging the cheese before eating? At 50-55F, it takes about two months for a st maure to be ready. Three weeks is a tad young... it will still be chalky. As the cheese ripens from the outside in, the mass inside will liquefy, and after that will actually start to be more solid again as the proteases run out of food and as the cheese loses water. You can try it a little younger, but age for at least 4 weeks. If you want a chevre-based moldy cheese that's better fresh, try making a crottin. The different shape and procedure make for a tastier younger cheese. St Maure is supposed to be a combination of the lemony tang of goat's cheese with the nuttiness and earthiness from aging, and covered with ash for contrast. A younger St Maure will be more acidic and chalky/grainy.


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## buckrun

Welcome and thanks for sharing. Once kidding starts and we all have extra milk you will be very busy answering questions now that we know you are full of info! Doesn't the ash also help with changing the acidity to a more mellow final product?
I was thinking that was the purpose of internal ash layers and wonder if the same is true of an outside layer. Thanks.
Lee


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## linuxboy

buckrun said:


> Welcome and thanks for sharing. Once kidding starts and we all have extra milk you will be very busy answering questions now that we know you are full of info! Doesn't the ash also help with changing the acidity to a more mellow final product?
> I was thinking that was the purpose of internal ash layers and wonder if the same is true of an outside layer. Thanks.
> Lee


Some great questions. One, yes, ash does neutralize the surface of the cheese and helps to dry it. This is actually very helpful for candidum because, like b linens, it needs a more basic (pH ~5.7+) environment to start growing. Beyond that, ash doesn't change the pH of the inside cheese. If you've ever smelled a regular brie and a ash covered brie-type cheese, the regular brie will likely have a slight ammonia smell, while the ash one doesn't (or shouldn't). There's a complicated reason for that that I won't get into, but it basically comes down to moisture and acidity on the surface.

Two, the internal ash layer, like for a morbier style, is not for pH change. Morbier was traditionally made by taking the curds from evening milk, covering them with ash as a preservative, and then taking the morning curds and stacking them on top, trapping the ash in the middle. It was farmers being inventive .


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## buckrun

Thanks-I did read the history of ash cheeses and was intrigued by that preventative invention.
Please DO explain about the ammonia smell as it repulses me in commercial cheeses while others gulp it down like nothing is amiss. I have read that in cheese caves during certain timeframes you have to wear a mask because of the ammonia fumes. I always assumed they were unfinished or not completely ripened when they have that ammonia smell-gag. I also am repulsed by unfinished mold ripened cheeses that are still wet in the center. It is enough to hurl over! You can tell I am not into that family of cheeses.
Now talk to me about super aged sheep's milk and I will wax poetic!
Do you have favorite books on this topic? So glad you joined us!
Lee


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## Leo

> There's a complicated reason for that that I won't get into,


Please do, I find this thread fascinating. 
Thanks,
Megan


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## linuxboy

Hi Lee. I like Frank Kosikowski's classic cheese and fermented milk foods, fundamentals of cheese science, cheese problems solved, cheesemaking practice, american farmstead cheese, the french one: fabrication of farmstead goat cheeses, margaret morris' manual, etc. I think a few of those cover the ammonia issue explicitly. I'll try and explain it, but it's rather technical. Please let me know if I'm not clear.

P camemberti is the mold most commonly used in bloomy rind cheeses, and there's also P candidum. Many consider camembertii to be the "real" brie and bloomy rind mold and P candidum to be the more prevalent variety used more for bulk commercial cheeses like stabilized bries. It works like a fungus in that it has little roots that it sends out into the outer edge of the cheese, and it starts eating the cheese. In order for it to grow, it likes a certain environment. The outer edge can't be moist. It also can't be too hot or too cold. Think about when mushrooms grow... they like cool damp but not moist places and appear in Spring and Fall. Same sort of idea here.

So the immediate consequence is that for P. camemberti to grow, the surface of the cheese cannot be moist, and aging should be done at a 50-55 degree temp in a high humidity. The way you dry off the cheese is both physically, by letting the curds drain enough so the cheese doesn't weep, by wiping it after molding, and by letting it sit at a lower humidity for 1-2 days before moving it to the cave.

But the surface issues is more complex than that. P camemberti also doesn't like a very acid environment. Most cheeses that are bloomy rind need to start with a pH of below 4.8 (for another complex reason I want to get into but have to run to work). So to get the pH up there are a few mechanisms. One, the camemberti itself eats the lactic acid on the surface and makes itself a cozy home. Two, yeasts and helped molds eat the lactic acid and then die off (hopefully), and the camemberti takes over.

One very common helper mold is Geo candidum. Strains of it range from a full on mold to a full on yeast in appearance. Geo paves the way for camemberti by producing an initial higher pH layer. However, it also in that process eats the cheese and releases some enzymes and other stuff. If the temperature is too high, or the salt too low, or the inoculation amount is too high (should be 1/5 of the amount of camemberti, IIRC), Geo can start going crazy and take over. This causes cheese defects.

A common bloomy rind defect is slip skin, which is where the little "feet" that should be holding on to the cheese can't hold on because the Geo or similar helper mold has liquefied the outer layer so much that it's too wet. This can be fixed by using the right amount of Geo, controlling temp, and surface salting, and drying before putting the cheese in the cave.

So, back to ammonia. Ammonia is a natural byproduct of camemberti and P candidum, and Geo candidum. But, camemberti only produces a little of it normally. P candidum tends to produce a little more than camembertii, but it also depends on strain. Some are really really smelly. And strains can change in the types of enzymes they produce. So in caves, a mild strain can become ultra smelly :O. Both start to produce a lot more than usual when eating the products of helper molds like Geo (there's also Debromyces, Kluyveromyces, etc). And remember what I said about Geo? How it likes a more moist surface, higher temps, lower salt, and how it forms this "slime" layer after eating the cheese (it's a microscopic layer, can't really feel or see it). Well, if there's too much Geo there in the beginning, it will keep eating the cheese, and the final cheese will be more smelly than usual. A little bit is good, though, adds a touch of earthiness, especially to pasteurized milk.

Ash helps with this because you usually cover with ash right after molding. This dries the surface right away, lowers the pH, and reduces the chance that other years and molds will contaminate the outer rind. It's basically similar to using Geo as a preparation tool for the P camembertii or P candidum.

Bloomy rind cheeses are actually tough to do correctly. They're pretty complex... you have to time everything just right and the margin of error, especially in the first week, is sometimes 3-6 hours to complete a step.


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## mulish

hi pav -
thanks for taking the time to give an online cheese clinic - great info!


i used "st. maure" loosely - the recipe that i followed for the culture mentioned being in this style. the candidum is added in the initial culture. i have used both round basket molds and pyramid shaped ones for the initial draining, but do wonder about how/if to turn the pyramid shapes! i have not ventured into ash. i did notice a chalky flavor (most commercial 'chevre' tastes unbearably chalky to me, so i didn't think much of it - but that's a different subject altogether.) and the mold layer, while complete and pretty does seem to be resting on the cheese rather than adhering to/being a part of the surface.
i am aging in the fridge, with the cheeses suspended on screens inside plastic boxes - very high humidity, but much colder than 55 - nothing touching cheese. i really don't care about what to call the final product, i just want to make something that tastes good! i realize that my efforts may be nothing without the proper temperature, but i figured it would just take longer at the colder temp as long as i had high humidity. (many things on the list to do before cheese cave!) 

i would love to make a crottin. bring on the tips. . .

jc


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## buckrun

JC- my understanding is that for normally cultured cheeses you can mature at lower temps just using longer times but for things with fungi in the mix- they only do their thing in very specific temperature ranges. 

I found a very small fridge that is all fridge no freezer space and has infinite control I am able to stay in the 50 to 55 range instead of normal fridge temps of near 40 to 44 and even 38 set on lowest setting- which I do to extend the life of milk.
This fridge was not really expensive and a few great rounds of cheese soon pays for it. The only complaint I have is that the shelf configuration is not optimal as it was designed for a dorm but the racks in the door for soft drink cans work equally well for waxed pieces aging as long as you rotate and flip. It is made by Danby. I am very happy with having a place that's just for cheese! Our cheese cave is way down on the list too.......
Lee


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## linuxboy

jc, Lee is right. You need the right temp for bloomy rind cheeses. If you do it at too cold a temp, what happens is that the mold initially says "Yippee, FOOD!!! Om, nom, nom, nom" and then in the fridge says "Hey guys, is it just me or is it cold in here. I am le tired. I'll take a nap". (Don't look at me like that... cheese talks. Most of the time, it says "eat me... eeaat me".) So while there's white on the outside, there aren't many enzymes to start changing the paste of the cheese inside. Also, bloomy rind cheese liquification works by lactic acid and other food moving from the inside to the outside to keep feeding the mold. At a cold temp, that movement is just too slow (this is also why pH levels are important, they influence the ability of the movement and speed of maturation).

You're off to a great start by using a container and a porous base/screen underneath for circulation. If you don't have a dedicated fridge, do you have a basement or a crawlspace or other cool, dark space? Take your container and put it there. It should be 55-60. A tad warm, but not terrible. You can also take a cooler, like a drinks cooler, put in a frozen ice gel pack, and put your container in there. Also, with a container, open it once a day because otherwise, you'll get 100% humidity. 

In France, the pyramid shaped cheeses are not turned, so you can just let them be.

I know cheese caves or temp/humidity control is usually lower on the list, but it's hard to make good cheeses without it.


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## buckrun

Ok Linuxboy alias Mr Cheese! You are in for it now. You showed us too much stuff and are going to be inundated!

When we were in Italy we found a fabulous product called 'fresh mozzarella' as opposed to the normal kind??
This was of water buffalo milk but most importantly was the most tender delicious mild and mellow little bit of milk solid I ever ate!

It was normally in all the village markets in ziplocks filled with very mild brine and 4 or 5 walnut sized balls of this cheese.
It was also served with salads in the eateries. I have never been able to reproduce this and I don't think it for lack of water buffalo. Do you have any ideas for that product? Not your normal stretching mozz at all. 

OH- and not ungrateful for the ammonia info-got it! Just galloping on to the the next thing while you are handing out info!
Thanks! 
Lee


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## linuxboy

I think what you are talking about are called uova di bufalla, aka bocconcini. It's a type of mozz that is not stretched at all, but rather shaped in a classic mozzatura fashion by taking bits of curd and wrapping them into a ball using thumb and forefinger.

Sorry to say, but the buffalo milk is a big part of the secret. It's higher in fat, very close to sheep's milk or ND milk, and this makes for a more moist and richer cheese. The other parts of the secret are the culture and making process. The culture is usually a whey starter traditionally from the previous batch. The thermophilic bacteria are specially adapted and mutuated to live in the acidic environment. The process is special in a few ways. One, the curd is let to rest at a 3x flocculation multiplier, sometimes a tad more, so the curd retains water better. Two, the curd is left to heal after cutting it in large pieces to firm it up. Three, the curd is cut to 3/8-1/2" to help the final cheese be more moist. And four, the temp is brought up slowly at first so as to not overcook the outer edges of the curd, and then more rapidly to about 105. The last part of the make trick has to do with the mozzatura forming. I can't explain it well. The trick is to not overwork the curds, and to use whey at 190 degrees instead of water. You just want to work it enough so the curd comes together and then pinch the top off to seal each ball.

Have a look here for more details:

http://www.fao.org/Ag/againfo/themes/documents/milk/mozzarella.pdf


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## Leo

Awesome. Thanks for letting us pick your brain!
Megan


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## jillig

Can someone share their recipe for st. maure or crottin??
I'm eager to try now!
DH says he can get a temp regulator for the fridge...I think from a home brew shop...I'll ask him again. I think I'm going to try that to keep the temperature correct.
Thanks for all the great info!


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## chewie

wow, tons of my own questions have been addressed here--and that old dorm fridge that can't seem to get cold enough for milk has just found a new use! the st. maure info was so very appreciated!


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## Sondra

OH my gosh my head is spinning sure would like to be able to retain all this knowledge. In the furture I will be using only Holstien cows milk as all my goats are nearly gone But do plan on making some aged cheese since I will have the time. Thank you so much Pav for all your help here.


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## linuxboy

Check out Peter's recipe for St Maure

http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_lactic.shtml

A St Maure is a variant on the classic French fresh cheese styles. Start out with a chevre, and spray mold culture in solution.


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## mulish

nice site - thanks!


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