# Dairy Condition vs too thin



## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

I have looked all over this forum, or called myself looking.
I have even done an online search.
I can find standards to determine if a goat is too fat.
What I can't seem to find is photos that show, the proper way to tell, is my goat:
thin, in condition, or fat.
Seems the written things are kind of subjective, instead of a standard.
Can anyone direct me to photos that would show what is considered good condition, for lactating does?


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

http://www.extension.org/pages/Goat_Body_Condition_Score Click on the links for photos

http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/issues/82/82-3/Donna_Meyers-Raybon.html Decent descriptions

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/management/bodycondition.shtml Has photos of cows, but you can still transfer a good bit of it over to a goat


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

Here is Silva age 4, after milking in the morning and being fed a mix of oats,alfalfa,dairy pellet on stand and also is feeding twins during the day. She has good coat color,some rib bones showing and is perky and I call her in good condition

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

That first URL was excellent. Thanks.


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

Linda, she's pretty. She looks like a sweet girl too.


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## deJardine (Apr 29, 2009)

Excellent URL! Would you consider 'dairy fit/trim' from a 2 to 3? Just curious...


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks for the link! Linda, your girl is so pretty. She reminds me of my Lacey. Although Lacey is only a year and half and came to me very thin and scruffy.

She has only been with us for two weeks.

Here is when she first arrived. I am thinking this is a 1?




























Here she is two weeks later already looking better


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

deJardine said:


> Excellent URL! Would you consider 'dairy fit/trim' from a 2 to 3? Just curious...


From the first link: "Animals should achieve a certain body condition during specific periods of the production cycle. For example, animals should have a body condition of at least 2.5 but no more than 4.0 at the beginning of the breeding season. Prior to entering the winter a minimum score of 3.0 is desirable. Also, if body condition score is 4.5 or greater, pregnancy toxemia prior to kidding is likely, as also is the case with a score of 2.0 or less."

I think it is also worth mentioning, that the photos look to be of a Boer, which will carry weight a little differently than dairy, and especially Swiss breeds. There was a topic on here not that long ago (a few months, maybe? Try searching for body condition scoring, maybe?) that someone posted photos or diagrams of the spine and the flesh covering it and how to tell the condition of a dairy goat based on the shape of the flesh (denting inward vs. outward) ... I've found that to be helpful as well.

Here is the thread, and the post is by Michelle (doublebow) @ the bottom: 
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,12836.0.html


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

Audra, Your girl Lacey did look scruffy and sad but she looks soooo much better and happy and very alert intelligent eyes after just 2 weeks of your good care and she beautiful  . It's amazing what a change goats will make with good care and LOVE !

Chris, Thanks for your comment,Silva is smart and she gives me kisses and doesn't like to get off the milk stand But you know as you pet and pamper your beautiful girl Cambrell and she is in excellent condition


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## BrokenHalterFarm (Feb 16, 2010)

Too thin ,


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## BrokenHalterFarm (Feb 16, 2010)

^ I just wanted to add that he is 100% now. That picture was taken in january?


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

You should post new pics of him so we can see him now.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I like to see some flesh on our animals, too many fairs with judges saying they needed more groceries. Which they did need more groceries...and copper, selenium, and better groceries. 
Here are two pics of our bucks that show them in exceptional condition and so I have taken them off of their meat goat pellet. I would put a pic of Kastdemurs' Ghengis Khan up but I am not going to for Karen Senn. She asks not to post until they are over two. He's only one.

Soldier-Mtn PVRA Theoden, a little over 2yrs, needs to lose a few wt. 254lbs









Caprine Beings Darius, just over a year, he went to auction weighing in at 185lbs.









I really wish I could put Khan up. His last weight was 197lbs at a yr old. Very solid fella.

As far as lactating does:
This was Sophie, kidded March 09, pic taken in May 09, milked 11lbs a day. Good condition.









This was Roslyn in May 09 also, working off of an abortion lactation @ 8lbs a day, good condition.









This year our girls are doing good. Milking off their pregger fat. We are satisfied with their condition so far.
Tam


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## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

I am planning to milk through, and not breed this fall.
I just reviewed the body conditioning.
I am concerned that my girls are exceeding the 4.0 heading for 5.0.
I know winter is coming, but with them not being bred, and hoping to milk through, should I hold them where they are, or back off a bit on grain.
I wasn't happy with their condition, so I have been over feeding them, to keep them gaining while milking well.
They are on grass hay, alfalfa top dressed, and grains. They have over 2 acres to exercise, and their muscles really are looking good. They run and jump up that steep incline like it is flat land! They aren't sedate or laying around panting in the heat even.
They are about 3 years old, ff (they kidded before but weren't milked for more than one month, not sure what happened, since I wasn't milking them)
But, what condition would you aim for in open goats going into winter, but they are lactating? I have always either had them bred or dry by winter, so this is new concept for me.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

If they're exceeding 4.0 and heading for 5.0, I'd back off on grain since you plan to milk through. If you were going to breed them, I'd say they were probably close to just right heading into breeding season. You may also get outside opinions of them. I tend to think mine are thin when they're not.  I put my dry yearling on a diet (less grain) and thought she was starting to look a tad too thin and the appraiser said, "She's overconditioned, but that's common for a dry yearling."


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## Hearts In Dixie (Oct 29, 2007)

Excellent thread! I have been critically eyeing our does this year trying to determine if they were just getting too thin from lactation or older age or maybe both. We have had our share of 4 and 5's around here but this year everyone is really looking good in the 2-3 range. I have noticed our 6-7 year old does that kid without fail every year dropping 3-4 kids continually are beginning to show some signs of age and wear. Good grief I don;t blame them I am too :lol Will definitely watch them closer and maybe give them a little more TLC.

Marla


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

As a society we seem to be moving towards fatter people, pets and livestock! :crazy

All the show animals are above optimum weight. Yes, you want to overfeed a bit when putting on muscle, but I think we are supposed to be focusing on dairy animals -- right? :yes

I read a lot of technical articles and old textbooks because I'm tired of modern books dummying things down. According to the studies, old and new:

For optimum fertility, a small ruminant at pre-breeding should be 1.5 to 2 on a scale of 1 to 5. This gives room for the animal to be gaining weight on a RISING PLANE OF NUTRITION for about a month prior to breeding and a month post-breeding. The rising plane of nutrition and slowly increasing weight sends a message to the ovaries to release more eggs and implant more eggs in the uterus -- there is food available and it looks good! The body is more comfortable maintaining more embryos. Similar to a wild goat surviving a rough end of summer on the desert, and finding the fall rains and forage to be nutritious and generous. So, expect more babies. 

If you start at score 1.5 to 2, and end at 3-4, your animal will be in good flesh for maintaining pregnancy and growing babies. 

If you start at 3 or 4, and end at 4.5 or 5, your animal will be over-fat. In a ruminant, this means more fat deposits on the inside and less room to hold kids and food later in the pregnancy. Leads to ketosis. As would going on a diet later in pregnancy -- don't do it! :nooo

A veterinarian told me that muscle stretches, fat tears -- so a leaner animal has fewer complications in birthing -- usually. Over-feeding in late pregnancy also can cause excessive growth in fetuses which can REALLY make things difficult!

Starting leaner before breeding allows you to play with the amount of food and weight-gain pre- and post-breeding and find the right balancing point. This is good management and can reduce the number of birthing complications - while simultaneously increasing the number of kids born per doe.

I wish there were good pictures illustrating scores on dairy animals (maybe even dairy animals of different builds), meat animals and different species. Dairy animals ARE built differently than meat animals, and when they eat, ideally the extra nutrition goes into their milk and not into their flesh. 

Just some thoughts.
Chris


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

After this post I realize my girls need to loose some weight. I’ll try and get some pictures of them so you can see what a fat goat looks like. Gonna cut back starting tonight.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Sven- I would just breed them and let them make tons of milk. 
I don't hold with this 'dairy' look that is the popular notion.
To breed and produce multiples and milk at peak capability a doe has GOT to have some extra weight on her. I know you don't have winter to deal with but cold temps will take it off of them too. It is far easier to let them milk it into the bucket than to try and put it on them while they are producing. My Nubian does produce like Swiss and it's because I condition them before breeding. Energy in to get energy out. 

It is much more stressful to push high protein and high fat feed once they are fresh to keep them milking when a little body fat with go a very long way to rich creamy high quality milk and good sized kids and quick kidding recovery. Check out the top winners at Nationals this year and their production records and those goats were fat. They were giggling fat and still took top honors. 
Their chests were bouncing and their necks had folds. You could grab a handful!Sorry not buying this dairy condition stuff- they need reserve calories to call on. Dairy structure yes but thin goats only milk by stressing their digestion with hot feed leading to metabolic issues later. 
I love a fat goat! I work for fat goats and I have none of the goofy complications everyone warns of. 
Of course they also get tons of exercise chasing down chow all day. I completely disagree that starting with a lean goat at breeding is any kind of good management.
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If a doe works for a living milking you can't keep em fat. Fat goats are poor milkers, they use calories to make fat instead of milk. Just ask Red and Bab's....Red is thinner than she ever has been in her life, but milking since Feb she will start slowing down, be bred in October and will be back to her rotund self this late winter. Agree with Lee, if they are fat, getem bred, milk them until 100 days pregnant and if they are not milking up to their potential the next year, sell the line. Vicki


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Your comments are very interesting and I'm not taking sides here because I am a rookie.

Tanja, the first goat pictured, is the dominant doe and the fattest of the three I am milking now. She was considerably lighter (although still "overweight") when I weaned the kids at the beginning of July. She is our most expensive doe and from heavy milking lines and so on and I was expecting her to be the heaviest producer. She has gone from producing a gallon a day at weaning to about a half gallon a day and it actually does appear to correspond to her weight gain as I started feeding more at that time since I was trying to fatten up the third goat pictured who always looked too thin.


















Sugar, the second goat, is also overweight (by the standards) but not nearly as much as Tanja. She has gained as well but not as much as Tanja since weaning and her milk production has been relatively consistent.


















Cinnamon is the third and skinniest but also by far the heaviest producer. She is not the most impressive doe and she has gained a little over the last month and a half, but not anywhere near as much as the other two. She has been giving about a gallon a day the whole time.


















I was thinking of breading Tanja first because of the low production, but now I am tempted to get her to loose weight and see if her production increases.

So being as fat as she is are you saying if I breed her now I will be more likely to get multiple kids? I was under the impression (very possibly incorrect) that it was an increase in food intake (2 weeks before breeding) and not just the condition of the goat that increases the likelihood of multiple births.


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

buckrun said:


> I love a fat goat! I work for fat goats and I have none of the goofy complications everyone warns of.
> Of course they also get tons of exercise chasing down chow all day. I completely disagree that starting with a lean goat at breeding is any kind of good management.
> Lee


Lee, 
everybody loves a fat goat! :yes A fat goat that gets to walk around and keep active is a healthy goat. 

Keeping a goat locked up and inactive is the fastest way to create kidding problems. Unfortunately, just like people, modern goats may not be leading such a healthy, natural life as the used to. 

The goal is not to breed a lean goat, but to let them go ahead and get lean some time before breeding, so that they are starting to put the weight back on prior to breeding and for a month after. And of course, you don't have to do it -- this is just a pattern that wild ruminants and domestic herds that are optimally reproducing will follow along with the seasons. The technical name for this is "flushing."

Flushing isn't so important if you don't want more kids. Some want more, some don't.

If you graze your goats on pasture, the drying up of the grass in July and August in the northern hemisphere (North America, for instance) will do this naturally -- and then you can offer them a little extra feed or wait until the fall rains to prime them for optimal breeding in the fall -- for the purpose of producing more kids.

You MAY find that your healthy fat goats, if allowed to get a little bit leaner one year and then regain some weight starting a month before breeding, will have more offspring that year. This will vary depending on genetics and environment, but it was -- and still is -- a proven way to increase production of kids.

(Speaking of fall rains . . . I think we got four inches this morning! Was raining cats and dogs! Standard Poodles, even!)

No goats were harmed in this scenario.


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Hi Sven,
you said:
"So being as fat as she is are you saying if I breed her now I will be more likely to get multiple kids? I was under the impression (very possibly incorrect) that it was an increase in food intake (2 weeks before breeding) and not just the condition of the goat that increases the likelihood of multiple births."

No, the "flushing" works better on thin does. You are correct that it is the increase in nutrition and calories that does the job, but optimally start with a leaner goat and increase the nutrition -- graphed out on a chart is is a rising plane of increasing nutrition for a MONTH before and a MONTH after the breeding date. 

Ideally you let her lose weight first, only THEN do you gradually increase calories and nutrition. For animals that get fat on hay alone, you might even limit the higher-quality hay and let her walk more -- browsing a poorer quality pasture or walking the length of the pasture to find her minerals at one end and her water at the opposite end (exercise is good).

By one month after breeding, the embryos are usually well-enough established that you do not need extra grain to grow them. A dry animal can be maintained on good hay (not fancy, just good) with minerals until the last trimester, when you need to reassess the animal. A young animal, old animal, or one with a big load of kids or any difficulty can start getting a tiny ration of grain a little earlier. It becomes a balancing act, but, is easier if the flushing and breeding went well.

Not just my opinion -- there are articles and books out there touching on this concept. Probably under the title of "flushing" and gestation or breeding.


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

I was looking at the photos. I THINK that on a scale of 1-5, Tanya is about a 4 (fat), Sugar is a 3 1/4 (slightly above average condition), and Cinnamon is about a 2 (thin but healthy). Which means that you could start flushing and breed the last two does at any time.

I'd hold Tanya back for a little longer and cut her feed a bit, before turning around and flushing her for breeding.

Just my opinion. 

I would be interested if others agree or disagree on the scoring of their condition -- I am still training my eye on goats (have more recent experience on dairy sheep which are like little Jersey Cows, but meatier than a goat).


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## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

My does are between Tanya and Sugar, or closer to Sugar.

However, it is not my goal to breed this fall. I want to milk through.
I find it interesting that the fatter goats milk less.

And ya know, come to think about it, when these two were a 2.5 they were milking more!

But, they just look so shiny, and slick now, I hate the idea of taking them back to a 2.5.
With no pregnancy issues, and lots of exercise, and milk production is okay, really... what would I do with more? It is hard to use up now.

They get alot of exercise, up and down the steep hill and playing on the pond bank (no they won't drink the water there) but they like Queen of the Hill games.

I am ordering training halters to begin working with them for training them to pull carts, pack etc. Just things to do with them. I figure that I may as well play with them, and what better way than training them to help with chores! ha ha And they can really help by eating the weeds! That might take some fat off, but I honestly don't want to lose any of the fantastic muscle tone.

I did cut their grain down by about 10% already, since I added alfalfa hay to their hay.
Could it be that being on hay, instead of fresh greens, is more concentrated and packing on the weight? So, if I get them out to work with them, and they eat more weeds, the weight will just naturally drop back to a 3.5-4.0? Isn't fat insulation against the cold, since breeding isn't on the agenda?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Mary Ann with winter coming and milking thru there is no way I would cut down on feed. It will only impact milk production. If you short them enough to make them loose weight they will dry up at this stage and if you want to milk thru you want them to imagine a never ending supply of calories 

I personally find no correct timeframe for flushing in a dairy situation. I believe that may be effective in pasture raising kids for meat but not in a milk string. Milking until 100 days bred and going on to produce kids and milk well the following lactation requires constant support. They receive consistent rations to facilitate milk production and conditioning. When in this time frame would you choose to let nutrition drop off? No time would be a good time.
They conceive multiples through correct mineralization and micro-nutrients that contribute to optimum reproductive health. 

Sven- do you bolus? Notice your fat goat has a slick coat that lays down all over. She is a selfish girl and is taking care of herself first. The other two look pretty normal for good producers but the little bit of roughness indicates borderline mineral issues. Do you have loose mineral out for them? Bolusing can help with weight maintenance. And the thinnest goat has the least barrel so you may be looking at structural capability for weight gain. She may not have what it takes to convert really well for milk and have anything left for body fat. This does not mean she is not a good goat- just won't be a fat one.
This can be the line or it can be kid care leading to poorly developed rumen. 
Is there an age difference in the does? Did they all freshen at the same time? How many kids from each?
Thanks for posting the photos. Fat Girl needs a bit of hiking! 
Lee


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I also don't like cutting calories on a doe in milk. I only cut back on the dry yearling. It looks to me from the photos, that the heavier does, like Lee said, are feeding themselves first, and milk comes secondary. Knowing the lactation they are in would help, too. First Freshener? Expect less milk and the ability to put it on the body better. 2nd to 4th freshener? Expect it to go more in the pail and be tougher to keep up condition if they're a really good milker. After that, their milk may drop off a tad and body capacity grows more. I wouldn't try to get a fat doe to lose weight in an attempt to get her to produce more--she will not, she'll just make less milk. Keep her heavy, she'll hopefully get bred with more kids in her, and make more milk, and that will thin her out.

It's really difficult to tell condition w/photos--especially hairy ones. You really need to feel along the spine, ribs, tail head (at least for me) in order to tell.


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Good eye Lee. I was wondering if anyone would notice that. I bolused them last week. They started showing more obvious signs (balding tail) several weeks ago when I ran out of minerals (meat maker blocks) for a week before I made it to buy more. Also the milk has tasted sort of off or "mineraly" to me and I now suspect it is the lack of copper. I believe they are all similar ages between 3 and 5 years. I think Cinnamon is a year older than Tanja, but I will have to check the papers. Sugar is leased and I forget exactly how old she is.

Thanks for all the tips. I didn't flush last year and we got 3 singles and one set of twins (from Cinnamon, the skinny one) so I was going to try it this year and see if we can do better. As I said I was planning to breed Tanja early because she is producing the least and then wait on Cinnamon since she is producing more but I will now try and take some weight off of Tanja and see if her production increases. Sugar is leased so I don't know yet if they want her back or if we can keep her again and breed her.

I do let them out of their pen when I can but I had to stop letting them out all day because they started going to far and eating plants we didn't want them too, mainly things we weren't sure they should be eating like amaryllis. I need to get a hotwire pasture set up for them, but I've been too busy with everything else. Maybe next week.

Below is a graph of their milk production if anyone wants to see. You can see Tanja's production has steadily decreased (at about the same time she has been gaining weight) while the other two are fairly consistent which also seems to correlate with their weight. Boy you can really see the days where I missed a milking.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Wowie Zowie! :biggrin LOVE that milk graph- fess up- how did you do that! 
That is totally awesome.



> I will now try and take some weight off of Tanja and see if her production increases


That is not the way it works. If you drop feed quality or quantity at this stage of lactation they will just reduce output. They will not give up body fat. The first 90 days of lactation is the thinning time. You will just be giving her the signal to dry off. I just cannot imagine trying to take weight off a goat with anything but kidding and lactation.

I believe if you get a good quality loose mineral you will see some improvements.
Lee


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

If these are does that kidded in the spring, they are obviously dropping production some now this late in lactations, with this heat that is perfectly normal. I would not associate the doe milking more because she was 2.5 in body score but because she was elsewhere in the production curve of her lactation. I haven't had goats long enough to chime in the conditioning theory, but a dairy goat asked to mik for 10 months out of 12 cannot possibly be compared to ruminents in the wild scenario. 

Jana


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## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

I like that chart. With my tendency to chart everything else, it is a wonder, that I have never measured, nor separated the milk to know who is doing what.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Personally, I think most old books giving most kinds of advice are best left on the shelf. They have little science to back them up, and have the same things wrong with them that modern books do...that is they are written by one or two people who claim what they say is "fact", when in FACT it is only their opinion. Bullpuckus to skinny, underfed, undernourished, half starved goats as our future great milkers. I started out breeding goats based on information I got from a book or two and my first goat nearly died during kidding from lack of available calcium, and no, she was not fat. I guess I like my information dummied down...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Agree with that Anita. The old information in livestock books we and our vets relied upon has killed more milkers on my farm with the whole 'ketosis' idea than any other piece of missinformation ever.

The whole Flushing idea is flawed in goats because they are not sheep. She has the ability to ovulate alot of eggs, she then can implant as many or as few as she chooses, further aborting and absorbing kids as her feeding/nutrition program continues. It's why I bloodtest before I sell does, to many times new folks buy bred does, take them home and they never kid. A doe on a good feeding program that gives her everything she needs can move to a poor program (which can be done just with taking away the flushing calories/carbs/protein) and the doe seeing her nutrition level going down, absorbs most or all of the pregnancy. A doe who has been milking for 8 months is milking less than she did when she freshened, so on the same amount of grain she is being flushed, getting more calories than you expend is flushing.

If you want to flush a dairy goat than give her bo-se and copper bolus her pre breeding.

I challenge feed. Feed exactly like you are doing right now and next Monday decrease her grain by 1/4 cup, weight her milk the next day, did she produce as much? If yes than decrease her grain the next Monday by another 1/4 cup...when she is able to continue to milk the same on less grain than stop, she will decrease her overall fat on her body with less calories. If she milked less the next week than increase her grain back up to what it was the previous week. I was able to take off 40 pounds from Shoofly and 30 pounds off Bab's like this, they look wonderful. Plus you are then not giving them so much grain that you have to worry about acidosis or pileing on fat internally especially the liver.

I think simply feeling over the ribs is a much better condition tool in dairy goats. If a doe is skin over ribs than she needs more calories, carbs, fat and calcium/protein which is best done with alfalfa and some grain. If a doe has flesh over her ribs than she is being managed well, if a doe has a roll, than she is unhealthy because she not only has that roll at point of elbow but internal fat you can not see, it used to be called fatty liver, and it can kill your does, especially during pregnancy. 

If your does freshened, in the photos early this year than they look normal.....if you just bought these goats this year than they look normal...if they just freshened this spring or early summer and you have had them a few years than yes they are poor milkers to be keeping this much weight on while milking. But what is a good milker to you? I had a lady call yesterday whose Nubian is milking 1/2 a quart A DAY. She was looking for a 5 year old who could milk 2 gallons a day...good luck with that 

Vicki


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Anita Martin said:


> Personally, I think most old books giving most kinds of advice are best left on the shelf. They have little science to back them up, and have the same things wrong with them that modern books do...


Age of a study is not the measure of its quality -- quality is a measure of its quality. 

OK, I am a bit of a scientific-paper geek. I should specify that I like reading older TECHNICAL books and published studies -- pretty dry unless you like that stuff. And often pretty good science! :yes

You would be surprised at how well the early scientific studies were designed -- they are the basis for all that followed in good, solid scientific studies done since. :yes

(I also read a lot of modern studies as published by agricultural colleges/veterinary colleges/etc., too).

The principle of flushing holds up in all ruminants -- possibly all mammals or all living things. :yes

Modern studies have focused on meat goats and sheep, true; that's where optimizing number of offspring is really essential to a good business plan. These modern studies have refined and fine-tuned the questions and the answers on flushing. What hasn't been done (that I know of, yet) are details on dairy does at work. :sigh

NOW, there are times when you don't want more kids -- the sire and dam are both so-so in genetics (poor milkers in the family, or some other flaws). The market is poor. You don't have the energy or space for lots more kids. That's OK. :yes

THEN, there are times when you DO want more kids. You use your excess kids to stock your meat freezer, the market is good for kids of whatever type (milker, meat, pets or other characteristics). OR, like me, you are planning on using a buck (AI straw) that is significantly better quality than your doe and wouldn't mind triplet does if you could get them. THAT's when flushing is a really good idea.

Actually, any time when you want to be sure a pregnancy "takes" a rising plane of nutrition is a good idea. :
Chris


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<<Age of a study is not the measure of its quality -- quality is a measure of its quality>>

Actually, a better measure is application to a real life situation and results, which Vicki wrote about. Lot of things look good on paper and in theory.

Jana


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

NOTE: every article and study that I have run across that discusses scoring and uses the values 1-5 clearly states that values 2, 3 and 4 are HEALTHY -- and values 1 and 5 indicate a severe PROBLEM. These are just DESCRIPTIVE scores -- they do not necessarily indicate a healthier or unhealthier goat by themselves.

I know from experience that there are individual animals that are just fatter or thinner by nature. It is up to you and your management style whether you want to pour more feed or restrict feed on those individuals. Doing so may not affect the actual health of the individual.

BTW, I do want to thank people on this list who gave me ideas for managing my new-to-me goat. Helped make it clear to me that she really is not just a deformed dairy-sheep, but a totally different creature. I was a bit confused for a while because she does not resemble the dairy goats of my youth some 30 years ago -- fashions and genetic preferences change with time, but ultimately there are some basic truths about a goat. 

As an update on the throw-away goat that was unthrifty at the start, I believe that the copper bolus, BOSS, minerals and alfalfa pellets (not to mention some cracked corn or "chop") have been good for her. Also, probiotics from the Calf Manna and possibly what she picked up from her buddies, a pair of dairy sheep, have been good. Company in the form of the two greedier dairy sheep has probably also helped her settle in -- they teach her how to really chow down on the good hay here. I figure that in the past few weeks this doe has progressed from a 1 or 1 1/2 to a 2 1/2 -- pretty good progress. :yes

Thank you all for your input. :thankyou
AND Sven, how did you do the graph? Do you use a specialized dairy goat database for recording your goat history, or did you make it yourself?

Just wondering.

Chris


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

prairie nights said:


> <<Age of a study is not the measure of its quality -- quality is a measure of its quality>>
> 
> Actually, a better measure is application to a real life situation and results, which Vicki wrote about. Lot of things look good on paper and in theory.


I agree, Jana, that application is important, but, human beings often interpret their personal observations and personal results to read the way they WANT them to read. We need both application and theory, anecdotes and hard scientific investigation.

Sometimes the real truth is between the personal observation and the limits of what questions have been asked scientifically.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

No need to shout Chris. I think you are missing a few things.
We are in the trenches kind of folks. We love to read and study but most of us have learned what we know by doing it in the real world. In the barn day in and day out for decades observing and keeping records on dairy herds of varying sizes. 

People have motives for the things they write and everyone has to publish to keep a teaching position or get a degree or present the results of a paid for study. 

There is much variance in the methods used for successful dairy goat husbandry and we have a wide range of experience on this forum from people who have worked with university herds- commercial dairy herds-home herds and everything in between. A sum total of much hands on experience and many years of learning.
Reading is great- doing is better especially if you are armed with reading while doing!

I will tell you a fat #5 goat story-and I have MANY. Padamae also called Fat Girl- a very high compliment here. 220 pound 2year old first freshener with fat everywhere you can imagine. BEAUTIFUL FAT! Kidded triplet bucks weighing over 8 pounds each - never missed a meal- proceeded to raise those trips to 45 pounds EACH in 6 weeks looking stylish all the while. Went on after weaning to milk 12 pounds a day at peak as a FIRST FRESHENING NUBIAN (that's me shouting) and was difficult to dry off after breeding. THAT is a fat goat story. And I love a fat goat! And you will never talk me into charts and measures and ratings and graphs because I have lived it. Real Life in the dairy barn. With fat goats :rofl

All of us read and study and apply what works for us. And that is not always the same thing for everyone.
But we also keep in mind that people write books for money- for jobs- for promotion and myriad other reasons not related to real application of the information distilled. While you are reading-check out some of the wonderful successful herds represented here. Look at Camille and check out Tracey and really just go thru the member list and visit websites and check out the accomplishments of these gals! Successful breeding is far more complex than fat or not. And everyone has a different situation and different results because of all the variations in the dairy herd out there. 

Lee- lover of fat goats!


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## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

I went for a walk with the girls, trying to get some pictures for comparing to photos here. What a job that is, you either get noses, or rear ends! ha ha I definitely admire the photographers ability to get good photos!

One hams it up for the camera, and the other one runs away!
I also climbed the tallest hill in their pasture, and they simply bounce up it, so obviously they are not overly fat.
I mean, fat folks can't do that, even skinny folks walk up it, not bounce.
I know, people are not goats, 2 legs etc. But, I think if they were too fat, they would lay around, they would be more sedate. If they were too thin, chances are they wouldn't be so bouncey either! Both extremes should show in the energy levels the animals have.

They are slick and shiny, wide through the middle, and seem happy, healthy girls, so I will just keep doing what I am doing to keep them that way. They are only fresh since May, so I should have no issues with milking until...March? Other than weather, and lack of greens.

Is the milk still good tasting after 10 months? Still make yogurt and cheese?


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## Hearts In Dixie (Oct 29, 2007)

I went for a walk with the girls, trying to get some pictures for comparing to photos here. What a job that is, you either get noses, or rear ends! ha ha I definitely admire the photographers ability to get good photos! :mad

Isn't that the truth! When you want to look or even get a picture they won't cooperate..............but when you don't have a camera or the time they prance around looking like centerfolds. :rofl


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

Hearts In Dixie said:


> I went for a walk with the girls, trying to get some pictures for comparing to photos here. What a job that is, you either get noses, or rear ends! ha ha I definitely admire the photographers ability to get good photos! :mad
> 
> Isn't that the truth! When you want to look or even get a picture they won't cooperate..............but when you don't have a camera or the time they prance around looking like centerfolds. :rofl


Definitely. Its enough to drive a sane person crazy.


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