# Going in on a doe... ??



## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

OK was just reading the last pg of Stacy's post... and panicking... though Ginger is NOT pushing so I should just relax.. but it has me realizing I do NOT go in far enough...

HOW do you go in that far? I can make it ALMOST to my elbow... but that is all... just can't seem to get deeper... fall about 1-1 1/2" short of my elbow even lubed and really pushing...

My arms and hands are NOT small.. I have long arms too... so wondering in INCHES how far roughly do you need to go in to be sure?

My dd's hands are even bigger than mine... her hands are as big as her dad's and he has big man hands... she is a big girl too... close to 5'10"...

So it would not help to have her go in instead...

just really getting concerned about doing this properly....


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## Meshale (Oct 26, 2007)

If your doe is not pushing...give her time...and even pushing you want to give her a few really good pushes..and see if anyhting is in the canal...I have only had to go in up to my elbow once..and that was to push a kid back and get his chin up.......If i doe would continue to push for 30 mins and no baby and i couldn't feel anything my vet would be getting a call.....I am lucky that she is close and a good friend!*S*


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I don't have a decent vet... 

And I am not *really* worried about Ginger since she is not pushing or running a fever.... but I do want to be more knowledgable next time... 

And I do for my own peace of mind check each doe.... but if I am not doing it effectively... I want to change that.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I have had to go in up to my elbow several times. Three times last year. Twice to correct the same malpresentation with the back against the cervix. I would just go in and find legs and hope they were the right ones, it was difficult but always worked out. One time I went in looking for an additional kid that was not there. I kept trying to find the elusive uterine horns that I can never find. But I did not feel a kid and i was up to my elbow digging around so figured there wasn't another one. I think it's just one of those things that the more you have your arm elbow deep in the back of a goat, the more at home you are there.


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## Meshale (Oct 26, 2007)

This is just me, but i would never go "in" on a doe unless i thought there was a problem.....I will "bump" my does after they kid just to see if i feel anybody else in there...but most of the time i have no real problems,,,But sometimes weird stuff just happens..that is for sure!


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

Lynn, I had the same reaction... up to your elbow??? :help2 
I have never had to go in very far (just far enough to find a nose on feet ), although I know if we stay in goats it is only a matter of time until I'll need to know how. 

So help... I've got no vet yet so I am on my own... What do you feel for, what do the "horns" feel like, how do you "sweep" - same basic questions as already mentioned.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

One of these days you eventually will have to go in. The more you do it...the better you get at it. LOL...I could bump a doe all day long and not feel a kid. I just can't get the hang of it and have no problem going in. Course I've had a whole lot more time to learn. 

I guess the deepest I've been was pass my elbow in an Obie looking for a 3rd kid that I had felt while arranging the 2nd. I swear the kid's front feet were sticking out the dam's nose! But, I found her way up front, and down low. Could just get a hold on her front feet. I just went and measured and it was about 18-19 inches. This was a short bodied doe so it can be lots further. LOTS OF LUBE and Preperation-H when I was through and a bit of banamine for pain. Doe did great.
Kaye


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Fingernails as short as you can stand!! You find the uterine wall-left or right and gently follow it foreward and down,gently moving the placenta as you go. It will feel like a water balloon full of guts. Go as far forward as you can. Picture the uterine horns in your mind *Y* and gently feel for these. If you come upon a place that seems stuck...don't force through it, you'll tear the *buttons* from the wall. Make sure if the doe is a deep bodied doe, you go to the bottom of the uterus. I Pity you Sara and Vicki !! Learn to be patient and gentle. Think of how you'd feel with someone ramming your insides. Plus the fact you can tear the uterus.

Now, ND...I don't have a clue!!! I just have a :really moment at being able to get my hand and arm in. Maybe a ND breeder can explain that one.??
Kaye


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## Beverrlly (Nov 12, 2007)

:yeahthat 
Yes--please an ND breeder! I'm scared to death I'd rip some of my little does in half!! 
:help


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I have had to fish up to my elbow for the leg or head to pull a kid around, but for checking if she is empty, I don't go in that far. Like I was telling lynn on the phone during this, I pull up on the does belly, pushing the uterus to me, using my knee, or whatever I have to, to pull both horns of the uterus towards me.

Bumping, or not checking will come back to haunt you one day! I don't know how you go in and go to sleep not knowing if she ate or she passed the placenta, or if there is one more kid in there or not...I worry, and I am back out doing a pelvic. And I would invite you over anytime you like to show me the bumping technique on Shoofly, Babbette, Birdy, BND or Mica, all over 200 pounds and your arms can't even get around them!

This is all just good management technique. Checking for presentation as the doe pushes her 5th time, can you feel feet and teeth? Making sure the head progresses down and does not go back as she continues to push...I am not talking invasive stuff here. Then as she has one kid, does she go right back into pushing? IF not a simple insertion of several of your fingers will make her push against your hand to bring another kid down. Is that kid in good presentation? And now that she is through, is there any other placentas? Any other kids? Vicki


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"IF not a simple insertion of several of your fingers will make her push against your hand to bring another kid down. "

Hey, Vicki, you could be a midwife! Wanna come assist me?


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I just happened across my pic of Sugar's March 2207 delivery of live twin doelings. She laborered for too long and started acying mildly distressed and when I checked, the first kid had her back flush against the cervix and had not yet even entered the birth canal. It took everything I had to straighten that kid out and get it in the birth canal, not knowing if I had two front legs (or what???) The second kid was correctly positioned but the doe was tired so I helped. I went in and really checked well for a third kid as she was quite large and also so tired. I would not be surprised if she was a bit overdue. Look at that ripe goat! Happy ending, we still have the twins and they are expecting!

If this pic is too gross, one of us can delete it  I'm just getting excited about kidding season!!!


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## Karen Bailey (Oct 26, 2007)

I am small (5'0"), my does are big deep bodied Nubians. The last time I had to go in was with a doe who was in labor and pushing hard, but nothing was happening for about 20 minutes, although she was fully dilated. I did a check, and felt nothing anywhere near the birthing canal. I had to go in further, and at the far end of my reach I finally felt two back hooves. I guided them out and found that the kid had died of a detached placenta and was delivered with the umbilical cord still attached and most of the placenta still attached to that. The kid was so far down in there that I wonder if without help the doe would have been able to expel him.

My neighbor who always calls me to help when her goats kid bought some shoulder length OB gloves from her vet for me. At first I was afraid I would not be able to feel as well with them on, but not only was I able to identify everything I encountered in there, but when I was done, there was no clean up to do beside rolling them up to throw away. My hand didn't smell like birthing fluids for the rest of the day, and I didn't get the rash that usually shows up on the back of my hand after being in contact with the birthing goo. I have decided to buy some more from Jeffers when my current supply runs out, and always have them on hand.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well yes I haven't had to go in on a ND but have on Mini's and have gone in up to the elbow. I can't bump and know anything either.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Adding to this.. The vet had told me that when checking for retained kids you go in like Kaye said, nice and slow and lubed up. OB gloves would be nice too. Anyway, he goes in sort of aiming to the right and until he feels the uterine wall and then sort of 'sweeps' downward to the other side. Looking at the does abdomen, it's large, and you want to check it all. 

Another nifty thing he showed me :really was if you palpate the area at the bottom of the 'triangle' that makes the flank and slightly forward, if you push in with your fingers (like your trying to touch your fingers together) and move 'em around (now to feel), he had me feel a hard object where no hard object should be. It was the head.

I'm going to see if they will get me a copy of her X-Ray, and then see if I can post it


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## Thermopkt (Oct 25, 2007)

Would it be possible to put this in GK 101?


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

The furthest I have had to go into a doe thus far was I think up to my wrist. I've been up to my armpit palping a bred cow though...lol
So far, our kidding issues with goats were resolved witout having to shove someone all the way back in and repositioning.
We lost a couple of kids early on that if I had known what I was doing and actually assisted we probably could have saved. I did lose a triplet kid in a rough delivery. Danielle's two bucks kids both tried to come out at once. Dad pushed one back far enough for the other to deliver. I was pretty sure I had bumped a third kid (we didn't get triplets really back then), but she didn't continue laboring like she normally did so I assumed I was wrong. She delivered a dead doeling 45 minutes after the first two arrived. That is a case where I probably should have gone in, but didn't realize it at the time.
I wasn't here for the nightmare kidding last year with Star Baby that resulted in the vet being called in for the first time in 9-10 years of kiddings. Haven't lost any does during labor.
I bump goats. It is what I am used to with cows (I have better luck finding a bred cow by buping than by rectal palping) and I have adjusted it to goats that are much smaller and easier to man handle..lol. I'm sensitive to the sensations created and am pretty good at distinguishing between rumen and kid(s). I also annoy the heck of does in labor though, because everytime you bump them you get their contractions going again.

Having to assist animals delivering is not something we run into much here. In the rare case a cow has a presentation that they cannot deliver (head pinned below the pelvis, calf in a twisted uterus, etc). We have reliable large animal vets in this area. And more than one. This is after we have tried ourselves.
For the most part though our cows are Jerseys and Jersey crosses, so no problem calving.
Our goats, despite what seems to lack in our management departments, are usually easy kidders.

I worry about the day I will have to really rearrange a delivery and actually go in further than my wrist...lol 
It certainly doesn't make me quesy which is a start...lol


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

I would like to add a thought here.. Vicki has always said that if you look at the size of your hands/arms, they are (in most cases) smaller than the kid you are trying to get out. After losing my doe, I've realized that it's not worth the 'tiptoeing' the wondering and the worry, and it sure isn't worth the pain and heartache. Get in there! & get it done! Now, re-arranging is a whole 'nother topic I'd like to start.
Be brave!


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

I have seen my wife in past her elbow on a doe before. The doe had two already out and was pushing on a third pretty hard. I let her push about 20 min and got my wife to go in. Her arms are a lot smaller then mine, and therefore easier on the doe. The kid was down deep and was balled up with his back toward us. Sherri turned him around and brought him out. I've been up to almost my elbow before, but my forearms get big quick right before my elbow and I always feel like I'm hurting them. My wife could go all the way to her shoulder and still not hurt them as bad as I would. If she's around I let her do it.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

This stuff does intimidate me. I would be worried about going in like that. I kind of have big forearms for a girl. My mom does too, (and she's little) I call her popeye arms LOL, so I get it from her. I just can't imagine being able to go in the far! I did the bumping thing and it worked for the two does I did it on. I could feel something in one, but it wasn't reallly that hard, and it was the placenta. Then I felt nothing after she passed that. Didn't feel anything on my nubian after her twins and passed placenta, and there was nothing left. But I don't have 200 lb does. Penny is a scant 110 lbs., the other doe was a little lamancha. I have this silly picture of my ripping the uterus or something. 

I can't wait for babies. :biggrin


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

:/Okay guys, I've been reading all these posts about getting the kids out and poor stacey. (I'm so sorry) I wouldn't know the first thing about going in to fetch out a kid. It has had me worried for several years cause I haven't had that problem yet and I know my turn is coming. :help2

If you think you have to go in and you d on't have any gloves.....how do you stay steril? or is it just get in there and get them and give antioboitics later? 

What is the best thing to lube up with ?

Is the prep H to put on their butts afterward for the swelling?

Also I was always afraid to tear the sack before the babies were out cause they might drown in the fluid. But if you have to go in and turn them, or grab ahold of their feet aren't you breaking sack in side the uterus? Won't the kid drown before you can pull it out? Don't you kinda have to pull with a push/contraction or risk ripping the doe?

I am very intimidated by this/scared to do this, but at the same time I have a few does that I think I would be just heart broke if I lost them because I didn't do more agressive procedures to help/save them.

Please explain as if I were a dumb blonde.

Thanks

Sheryl


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I wear gloves on other folks goats, I do not wear gloves with mine. I have a much harder time with gloves on.

I do take the time to wash my hands really well. I also take a towel to wash her vulva..she has already had her rear udder and tail shaved, so it isn't all that nasty. I lube up with veggy oil, it's cheap and it works well. I keep my hand in the air and do not touch the doe with my left hand, it is for going in only. I am right handed but I do this with my left hand. The placenta does a very good job of evacuating out everything from the uterus, I don't worry much about infection in the doe. I also put on a glove and put tetracycline in the uterus after she has passed her placenta "bathing' the sides and all around with it and put her on pennicillin after kidding...if there is a dead kid, slurry kid or I have had to really go in. The ick factor, you gross me out and you go on antibiotics. But just moving a foot, or pulling down a head, no I don't use antibiotics.

Yes Preperation H is for vulva's after kidding.

The babies breath from their umbilicals. I don't care about the sack issue, i can't pull a kid in a sack, and honestly since dealing with my copper issues, sacks are not an issue. They are no longer tough and break easily when i need them to.

Yes you hope the doe is contracting while you assist. Just your fingers in her cervic will make a doe normally push against your fingers.

A doe can't rip if her cervic is dialated. You will have some tears around the vagina with your forearm up inside the doe.

If you assist, you rarely will have train wrecks to fix. I have never had a doe of mine sectioned, and it's because I assist. I am not talking I pull kids..I do check presentation on most of my does, but rarely if ever had to do much more than check. Vicki


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

The kid should be getting oxygenated blood as long as the umbilical cord is attached. At least that is what we learned in our Bradley birthing class (for people). Not all OB gloves are sterile so it depends on the ones you buy. If you are in that deep antibiotics are often in order...I grew up helping my mom with a lot of Sheep births. They are the worst! Constantly pooping out and having problems, tangled babies etc. Mom never had gloves, the routine was take off the wedding ring, soap up and go in. You can also get lube from livestock places and such. Thank goodness goats seem to give birth soooo much better than sheep!!


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

Thank you so much for the answers. I know I almost always have veggie oil around, is good to know that that will work. So just be careful, make sure you are feeling the same baby before you go grabbing feet or anything. and do what you have to do? 

This helps. I really hope I don't ever need to, but I know my turn is coming, and I had rather have tried, than not and lose a good doe.

Okay hate to sound stupid, but where do you get the tetracycline for this? Is it like the injectable or is like a past thing what? I'd like to have some on hand just in case.

Sheryl


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes just your 200 mg tetracycline (no long acting) that you have in the fridge for your injectable antibiotic. It's makes a wonderful uterine flush or wash. Vicki


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

Thanks Vicki, you are such a wonderful help. I really appreciate you.

sheryl


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## donna (Oct 26, 2007)

This thread is very informative. So far, I have not had to go in more than finger deep. Having to go deeper scares the snot out of me. It is so hard to imagine my full hand in a Pygmy! But, after reading this, I will probably be a little braver. Thank you!


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## Meshale (Oct 26, 2007)

I am an ND breeder..and last year i did have to go in to my elbow to repostion a kid...but this is the first i have heard of "sweeping" for kids after delivery....I must say that kinda scares me!..lol....I for??? know if i would know what i was looking for???...and what to do with it if i found it!..My big boer is the next to kid..maybe i will practice on her...Poor girl!!..lol


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Donna I always heard if your gona get pygmies you have to be able to get your fist thru the holes in a cyclone fence or have some one available that is able to do so. I have a friend in CA that freshens out 50 to 100 does for other people just for that reason.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Good analogy Sondra. I can, to feed the front buckling pen I have to put my hand through the chain link fence that is around the soap room  Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> the routine was take off the wedding ring, soap up and go in.


 :rofl and watches!! Uhmmm, Timex WILL take a "lickin'" and come out tickin'! Vet forgot to remove watch before going into cow...I noticed it just as it disappeared, you know where...my "clean arms" were already in there and I couldn't help but laugh...."you didn't take your watch off!" ROFLOL...his reply,"Well, I got a foot and I ain't lettin' go! I hope I get my watch back." 
It stayed on his arm and worked when it came out! Wonderful add for Timex? :rofl

Ok, hand through chainlink fence...hhhmmm....never thought of that- but true!
Kaye


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

too funny on the watch

NO WAY on the chainlink fence... NOT EVEN!


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## donna (Oct 26, 2007)

Hmmmm, Sondra. I am going to go out and try to put my fist through the holes in the chainlink.... Hope it fits, cause I have large hands :/


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yes, I can see myself, down the hill hollering, stuck to a chain link fence. :nooo


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## Karen Bailey (Oct 26, 2007)

But Ashley, on this farm at least, it's the bucks in rut trying to get their heads stuck in the fence, not the humans! :crazy

My hands do fit through chainlink fences - and in small goats, and unfortunately sheep, and I'm allergic to sheep, but all the neighbors in this area call me when they think they have a problem kidding or lambing. OK, maybe I should think of my small hands and knowledge of goat anatomy as a blessing to help others. Everyone has something they are good at, but I think my MIL would faint dead away if I said that in front of her!!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

:rofl some MIL just don't understand the importance of butt checks either.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Can we find that thread on how many dairy goats total are on this forum, and multiply out how many times each one of us checks each of our doe's butts each breeding season and see what the number is?

Next year we will all keep count of our herd butt checks and we will run a contest :rofl


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## Karen Bailey (Oct 26, 2007)

:rofl I'm choking here! :rofl


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## Bethany (Jan 9, 2008)

Ya'll are too funny!!! :rofl


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Next year we will all keep count of our herd butt checks and we will run a contest 

ROFLMAO_ What is the prize????

A bottle of Visine, for those red, tired owners eyes? 
Sunglasses, to hide the red eye?
A soft neck collar, to help with the stiff neck from bending over so much???
or, the grand prrize- a screensaver of the Very Best DGI Goat Bottoms of 2008?


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:biggrin I'm exempt from that contest! When breeding starts around here....I can even tell one Togg from another from their vulvas. Course, when kidding starts...it's a no-brainer. I lute/Dex...so I don't HAVE to check rears. Shots+does penned= good nights sleep. :lol
Kaye


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

I figure...

the "average" women in labor weighs anywhere between 140-200lbs, not that different from a goat and a baby person weighs on average 6-8lbs, not that different from a baby goat. So for me, at least dealing with NORMAL, fullsized goats, there isnt much difference, size wise and I do one without thinking about it so I wont worry much about occasionally having to go in on a goat. I havent yet killed a woman by checking her cervix and occasionally having to fiddle with the baby inside so I doubt I will kill a goat if I am careful.

There, now I convinced all of y'all that you can go be people midwives as well.


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