# Milk replacer



## 2Sticks (Dec 13, 2007)

My son just called. He has 2 Boer x does and he is trying to prepare in case his does don't have enough milk to feed the kids. His question is "If milk replacer is harnful 
to the kids A) Why do they still make it? and B) What do you do for milk to suppliment the kids? He said he keeps seeeing on forumns not to use the replacer but no one ever explains throughly why not.
Could someone please explain it so I can pass the answer along to him? Thank you.
Tamera


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

many many bloated kids /diarrea not thrifty.
use Vit D from grocery store if no goat milk or find a cow dairy to get cows milk. After the babies are a little older some switch to replacer with sucess I think


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## Rehoboth Farm (Nov 25, 2007)

Milk replacer is not the best but I have used it when we first started and bought bottle babies and had no does in milk yet. I raised several does and my buck exclusively on it. 

I never had any observable sickness or problems with it. 

If I had to do it again I would probably use the milk from the store like suggested above.


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## leslieh (Oct 25, 2007)

I much prefer whole milk from the store. If he wants to use replacer, then he probably would want to add some baking soda to the mix.

We have had boers in the past and did not have any problems with them feeding the kids. But then again, we fed them like our dairy girls.

Leslie


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Most milk replacer is made with whey or soy. Whey is not milk and anyone who makes cheese will tell you that after you make cheese with 1 gallon of milk, it maybe will make 1/4 cup ricotta with it...so like baby formula's made with whey, not a heck of alot of nutrition in them. Read the labels, they want you feeding them little tiny feedings, and only about 3 of them so the kids will start grain really really quickly, in fact starting them on grain quickly should be your goal so they get some nourishment, it isn't coming from the formula.

Soy is a whole nother problem in that infant ruminants can only curd milk, not soy. Soy causes diarrhea becaue kids can't curd it.

When kids nurse their mouth makes saliva which is acidic, and makes the milk they drink start to curd. In the stomach the milk finishes curding. This soft cheese, then flows into the large intestine (remember infant ruminants are born with only 1 working stomach) where nutrition from the milk goes into the bloodstream to keep the kid warm and to grow, calories/fat/energy are gleaned from this solidifing mass. More and more whey comes off and is fluids for the body and becomes urine. The cheese goes into the small intestine where finally nothing is left of the nutrient rich milk, and it is pooped out in a soft pellet. Anything that stops this curd formation gives you scours. Scours rush through the system and no nutrients are gleaned from the product fed. Scoured kids, fail to thrive, dehydrate and die. In the wrong hands, milk replacer causes death, and kids raised on milk replacer rarely grow to their potential.

Most folks who use replacers are feeding milk the first few weeks, are not only feeding milk replacers. 

The only way to feed replacers to buy the exact brand, and feed it exactly the same way a mentor who will share real information with you does it. Someone who you have seen their kids and believe what this person says. Vicki


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

My 2 cents worth. Under no circumstances and I mean don't....think of it as poison.

DO NOT FEED KIDS UNIMILK MILK REPLACER MADE BY MANNA PRO FROM TRACTOR SUPPLY.

You might as well knock your kids in the head with a hammer when they are born, cause the unimilk brand milk replacer will kill them. When I was first and I mean very first in goats, I made that mistake. Killed 11 babies one year feeding that stuff. At the time I did not own very good milkers, was just starting out. So I fed my babies that milk replacer. Some made it two weeks, some just one, and some just a few days. When you give a baby goat a bottle, and it is dead before you can get to the house, you know it's the milk replacer. After this fiasco, I talked to several breeders at a show, and there were three there that said they had had bad experineces with the product...like their kids died!

I called Manna Pro and rasied hell with them as I did with Tractor Supply, they both fluffed me off. I didn't have "proof" like an autopsey or whatever to proove it was their product that did it. But I know better.

Okay, I'll shut up now.

Sheryl


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

My one and only experience with replacer was that I had a calf here on the replacer already when I got her. ran out of goat milk so gave the replacer to 4 kids. Two of them were sick within 1 hr and with alot of pampering and antitoxin they lived but I won't use it again. and the calf didn't grow very well either on the stuff.


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## 2Sticks (Dec 13, 2007)

I can't begin to tell each one of you how much I appreciate your replies. I will get this to him right away. Vicki, thank you for the wonderful explaination of newborn digestion. That is invaluable! I will print this all off and put it in my book. Again, thank you so much to each one of you.
Tamera


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2007)

Well...i have a different view on replacers. That is all that I feed and have for years. The big thing that people dont do is read the direction on the bag. Then buy the cheapest stuff that is out there. I think if you are going to feed replacer then you need to do alittle homework on the replacer itself. I feed Land O' Lakes, and have for about 20 years. I dont add anything to it, just mix it up like the label states. You need to make sure that your water is at the right temp tho, I have found that it mixes alot better.

I have used it on calves and kids. Infact Judy Kapture in WI that is all she feeds. Her kids get whole milk for about 2 days and then is put on replacer. For the first week she mixes it half and half. Week 2 its 75/25 and week 3 its straight milk replacer. There is a big dairy out in CA that also feeds replacer to all their kids and they are milking about 600 does year around.

The bloat is not caused by the replacer as most think. It caused by the way that they are fed. You should not have the bottle any higher than the back of the kid/calf. If you do what you are doing is putting the milk or replacer in the rumen. That is the only place that bloat can be at. With any newborn the milk needs to go into the abomasen. That is the first stomach, there it will curd and they will be able to use it. Once milk is in the rumen that is where scours and all that can happen. 

This is something that I think most people should try to do atleast once. When you have a dead kid/calf...open it up and look at the different stomach in it, that way you know what they look like. In a new born the rumen is VERY small. Since at that age it has not had time to develop all the way...that takes about 2 to 3 months. This is why you should never feed hay for at least the first month. You will cause them not to get the growth in the rumen. They will not be healthly and most of the time have a body type that people call "hay Belly". This is when the animal is gutted down in the middle. Sometime they grow out of it but, most of the time they just look like this their whole life. 

That is my 2 cents worth

Ken in MI


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm so glad you asked before you fed them replacer. The first year we were in goats we fed it to the babies we bought from a comercial dairy and had lots of problems with it. Not only did we have problems with bloat and and scours, the kids did not seem to develop their immune systems despite being fed sufficient colostrum at birth. Older vaccinated kids succumbed to entero and aslo had cocci problems. Since that year, we have fed only goat's milk or whole cow's milk and have had healthy babies.


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## Good Goats (Oct 26, 2007)

Ken/aRealdairyman - thanks for the info! You said that kids should not be fed hay until after a month old? Should they not be offered hay at all? I have always been told just the opposite (to have hay available to them).
Also, could you give me an estimate of how much milk/replacer you feed kids?

Thanks so much!
Suriyah


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

For my goats if goat milk isn't available I use cows milk from the store. 

For my calf I used the good milk replacer that was recommanded by a person who has owned cattle for a while. It was expensive but well worth it. Maple did GREAT on it.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, milk replacer with no soy that I have used has went up to $40 for 20 pound sack. I never used it more than 1/2 replacer and 1/2 goat milk. 

Whole cows milk at the grocery is almost $5 a gallon.


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## Good Goats (Oct 26, 2007)

Tim - what brand of replacer would you recommend?

Thanks!
Suriyah


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## Good Goats (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh, one more thing. . . where do you all buy your replacers (if you need it)? Where can Land O' Lakes replacer be bought at?

Suriyah


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2007)

Well...i have learned that you should hold off on the hay when they are young and just get the milk and grain into them. They have done research on that for years and have found all you do it stop the rumen from growing at the rate it should. We do not offer any hay what so ever till they are atleast 6 weeks old and then wean at 7 weeks. They have grain offered on day 3, we use a calf starter that is in the "sweet" type of grain. Meaning to me it looks like horse feed. Its 18% protien mix/none medicated.

With the milk replacer I use a what they call in the cattle world and forced feeding. All that means is you increase the amount of milk for 6 weeks and then back them off alittle till you wean a week later. With most of the kids I am feeding right at a gallon a day. Calves I will have it up to 2 to 2.5 gallons a day. But, I feed three times a day till weaning. Some people say that is alot of milk but, to me that is what they would eat if they was on their dam.

The type of replacer...Land o' Lakes. I can pick it up at the feed store. Its calf milk replacer, 22/20. I know people that are using the Jersey replacer for kids and are just loving it. That might be a good replacement since Jersey's are prone to bloat more than other calves. Also, it is a higher fat and protien...can not remember right off the time of my head what it is.

Ken in MI


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Note this is all milk (no soy) and has the jersey replacer also
http://www.lolmilkreplacer.com/calf_milkreplacer.html


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

Ken, are you referring to the Jersey Match?
The school used that. I hated having to change the amount every couple of weeks. Give me a straight forward feeding system anyday.
We just use the Nursing Formula by Land O' Lakes for our calves when we use replacer. Our calves grow off just fine on that stuff...well, that and Primer 1.

Our kids are fed cow's milk and offered Primer 1 as well from a young age.

We haven't ever tried milk replacer with kids because we have a ready source of cow's milk.
Our Boer buckling we purchased was raised on UniMilk until we brought him home at 2 months old. We switched him over to cow's milk. He didn't grow out as well as our bottle kids did though. The doeling we traded him for ended up bloating when put on the UniMilk at their home. I encouraged them to switch to store bought milk and she ended up being jsut fine.


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## Good Goats (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks Ken and everyone else! One more question for now - Ken, that does seem like a lot of milk, but what breed(s) of goats do you have? I have Mini Nubians so would probably feed less if you are talking about standard dairy goat breeds. . . maybe 3/4 gallon or 1/2 gallon (?).

I am asking all these questions mainly because I have a doe due (may kid tonight) who is WILD (her name is Wildest Dream, lol!) and I just at least want to get out her colostrum, and then if she doesn't calm down enough for me to milk her through so I can bottle the kids with her milk, I may use replacer or milk/replacer mixed together. I really don't know yet. . . just waiting it out. I will have to let ya'll know when she kids!!

Thanks again,
Suriyah


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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

I use replacer, Premier brand for goats. I will use it to mix with goat milk if I am running short on milk, but I have also raised a kid 100% on Premier replacer, with no issues what-so-ever (she is actually one of my growthiest yearlings now). I think the key to using replacer is follow the EXACT directions for mixing! The few times I had a diarrea issue it was due to mixing the replacer too rich.

Ken in Idaho


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> With most of the kids I am feeding right at a gallon a day.


 :rofl As Vicki would say...."Those kids are at Kaye's house." I too feed as much as a gallon a day to kids. And feed 3-4 times a day on the lambar.
I tried the limited milk and just wasn't as happy with the size on my weaned kids. But, I also get rid of all the bucks at birth, so all I have left are the doe kids.

Oh, BTW...I *think* Ken is meaning standard breeds! I can't see putting that much milk into a ND or pygmy. 
Kaye


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2007)

I have standard sized breeds here, really dont know much about the "mini" breeds but, that I am scared of stepping on them when they are kids.

Kaye and I feed alot alike, we like BIG fast growing kids. There is no reason that you should hold over a yearling to get them to grow in my opinion. But, also I have been the one that have freshened Jerseys at 21 to 22 months also. I feel that you need the large amounts of milk to get them growing at a fast rate. Look at the meat kids or beef calves...do they just nurse twice a day? We have fashioned the animal to our way of life. Feeding milk twice a day, feeding grain twice a day. When the fact is...if you reproduce what nature does, most of the time you get less illness and a faster growth rate. Infact, one summer when we was hitting the shows big time, we had all our calves on free choice milk, now they did drink HUGE amount of milk that summer. But, we also had anywhere from 250 to 300 pound calves at weaning(8 weeks). To me the more milk you can get into them at an early age the better off you are going to be.

The purpose of the forced gained feeding program to be able to wean at an early age. The basic system is...you start out at a set amount of milk. Lets say...one pint twice a day. Then you increase the amount steady of 4 weeks to say...3 pints twice a day. Then back off a little bit to start weaning them. What happens in the animal is that the rumen at that time is growing, the more milk and grain the faster it grows. Then at weaning at 8 weeks most of the time they are eating more grain than if you stay at a set amount. With calves, I have had them eating up to 4 pounds of grain a day at weaning. Also, it helps at weaning time. Since, they are already eating grain and liking it, take away the milk and the bawling will last just for about 12 hours. Then they are over having milk. That is the best thing I see with the forced program.

Ken in MI


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I have always fed at least 4 times a day then gradually reducing to 3 then 2 then 1 before weaning. don't know as that is right.


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## Good Goats (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks everyone for the info!!!

Suriyah


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

I offer a bottle to the newborns to week old age grouop of kids anywhere from 5-8 times a day. Pretty much whenever we are in the house. After they are trained to the lambar and moved to the barn they have free choice milk all day long...well...pretty much. Dad refreshes the lambar with fresh warm cow's milk after each milking. There is usually about a pound or two left for the kitties.
They are offered the Primer 1 free choice (as are the calves).
We don't tend to freshen our cows until around 24 months old, but that is because we aren't as up to snuff on taking the time to detect heats earlier than that...that and we try to calve FF out in the Spring but we calve year round... They are mature enough and big enough to calve out at 21 months we simply don't generally do that.

The calves raised on the Jersey Match with the pushed feeding did grow out much better than when the school used the Nursing Formula. They would have done even better if they had offered the Primer 1 right from the start...which I implimented after the Assistant farmer left.


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