# Golden Gurnsey survey (ADGA members)



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The Guernsey Goat Survey 
Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:59 pm (PDT)

Please feel free to forward this to anyone/ any chatlist

The ADGA executive (via email from the President Robin Saum) has agreed to publish what they are calling a Survey in this edition of the ADGA News & Events.

This is both Great & Bad news.

It is Great news because a survey must be published in this edition to allow for member feedback and for the BOD to consider the proposal to accept the Guernsey Goat.

Originally I was asked (as part of Guernsey Goat Breeders Of America) to prepare the survey,, I used the survey done when the Nigerian Dwarf proposal was before the board as a model, Here is what I came up with:

Guernsey Goat Survey

Per the "Procedures of Adding a New Breed" that was 
adopted by the ADGA Board of Directors in 1999, the 
ADGA membership will be polled any time a breed requests 
a new herdbook. Information below are the "pro" & "con" 
points for inclusion of the Guernsey Goat. The GGBoA 
is requesting that ADGA add the Guernsey Goat as a new 
herdbook within ADGA. Please read both statements,
and mark your choice at the end. Mail back to ADGA to
arrive by ______________.

REASONS TO ADD THE GUERNSEY GOAT

1. ADGA will be taking a major roll in conserving/saving
a rare and unique breed of dairy goat. The parent 
breed (the Golden Guernsey) is small in number and
the number of breeders is decreasing. With the use
of the strong genetics from the swiss type of ADGA 
breeds as a starting point, the Guernsey breed has
been & will continue to improve, while keeping its
wonderful differences to the other dairy breeds.

2. Monies now going to the British Goat Society for the
memberships, registrations & transfers will be staying
here in the USA, income for ADGA.

3. Breeders of the Guernsey Goat will have their animals
registered with a registry within their own country.

4. Breeders of the Guernsey Goat will be able to participate 
in ADGA sponsored performance programs, including
Linear Appraisal, DHIA, and partake in ADGA sanctioned
Shows (with feedback from ADGA trained judges).
This will increase income to ADGA and reward the breeders 
with valuable information these programs provide.

5. With the inclusion of the Guernsey Goat Breed, ADGA will
again be representing all dairy goat breeds in the USA and
thus re-enforcing that they are the voice of the Dairy Goat
Industry in the USA.

6. As a breed under ADGA's umbrella,the Guernsey Goat's
inclusion into the USA goat dairy community will be more 
broadly accepted. This will allow for more people to utilize 
and enjoy their sweet tasting milk & high cheese yield.

REASONS NOT TO ADD THE GUERNSEY GOAT

1. Cost to ADGA to establish the herdbook required to add
the Guernsey Goat. The Guernsey Goat Breeders of 
America are requesting the same program as used with
the La Mancha breed.
When the Nigerian Dwarf breed requested acceptance
by ADGA the cost noted in the survey was estimated at 
between $15,000 and $40,000.
Since the Guernsey Goat Breeders of America are asking 
for use of an existing program, it is hoped that the cost 
will be at the lower end or below these estimates.

2. Although it will be many years down the road (to achieve
the numbers required) the Guernsey Goat will ask for it's 
place at the National Show.
The inclusion of another breed at the National Show will
cause the show to be longer causing concerns for both
organizers and exhibitors.

3. The Guernsey Goat Breeders of America are requesting 
that the Guernsey Goat be shown in natural coat, with 
suggestion to its membership to do dairy clip only.
This will require a slight learning curve for judges & 
appraisal staff.

Could we also add that information on the Guernsey goat is available from if members have questions ?

Nina Schafer ph 408-396-6439 (email [email protected])
Joan Stump ph 215-723-5415 (email [email protected])

The BAD news is the ADGA Executive has totally rejected what I gave them, they told me I would have input, and then decided (obviously without Guernsey Breeders input) on the below so called Survey.

> Guernsey Breed Standard followed by the survey questions.
> 1. Do you believe the Guernsey goat as described in the breed standard above should be recognized as a breed of the dairy goat? Yes ______ No__________
> 2. The British Goat Society and Golden Guernsey Goat Society of England are the current holder of pedigree information. Should ADGA rely upon this pedigree information in determining the conformance to breed standard requirement? The pedigrees supplied do not have color descriptions of the animal. Yes _______ No _________
> 3. Are you in favor of ADGA recognizing the Guernsey Goat as an official ADGA breed? Yes _______ No ______
> 4. Should ADGA recognize the Guernsey Goat breed even if the cost of establishing the breed cannot be recovered within 5 years? Yes _____ No_____
>

1)First I want to point out,, the first question is not only rediculoes (of course the Guernsey Goat is a Dairy Goat, average production records from UK is 2280 lbs per 10 months) but totally insulting to all Guernsey Goat Breeders.
2) Because the BGS registration papers do not include a description, The GGBOA has offered & supplied to ADGA letters from the Breeders stating all animals they registered with BGS meet the Breed Standard of BGS, AND THE GUERNSEY BREED STANDARD ADGA ACCEPTED LAST YEAR.
The GGBOA feels that these statements are equal to the statements ADGA members make when registering an animal with ADGA. And that this should qualify as verification that the animals all meet BS (including all 4 generations as is required).
3) Yes please do answer this question, GGBOA of course asks you to vote to include us.
4) Again this question is completely misleading,, Where is the estimated cost? Do we have any basis for suggesting it will take 5 years to recover the cost? Without an estimate, and projection of costs how can we believe this is a valid concern.
So please please pass this email on, and when the ADGA news & events arrive consider everything before sending in your vote.

Guernsey & Nubian Goats
Semen collection & sales


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I would hope that the whole of ADGA understands how important it is for ADGA to be forwarding thinking in bringing in new dairy breeds, not just for revenue, but because the alternatives to registry are few and far between. I intend to continue, first via the Breed Standard Committee, but now through voting in this poll survey, to help this breed gain acceptance in the ADGA herd books. Vicki


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## Hickoryneck (Jul 29, 2011)

I hope they will accept them it would be great for the club to accept new exciting breeds and will just add more interest to the Dairy Goat industry


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I just heard about the Guernsey breed, didn't know it existed. I have a lot less of a problem with ADGA adding a breed (if it's a legitimate breed, and I'm assuming it is), than with the to me ridiculously confusing and not always sense-making rules with the Sables and Recorded Grade.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Having worked on committee to include Sables (do you realize they have been around, tucked in to the ADGA guidebook and hidden in Recorded Grade) for as long as we have had Saanens in America, most don't know this. What problems do you have with recorded grade?

Curious if you had just read the ADGA statement being sent out, it does sound like it was written in the negative, making one wonder if ADGA wants one to question if it is a legitimate breed or not?? Either it was intentional or ADGA needs someone writing their statements who knows PR because this is not the first time they have done something like this. Visit the GG site, it is fascinating and the numbers and milk ability in the UK are certainly proof it's a viable breed and certainly a dairy goat. Vicki


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

There is a lot more to it than meets the eye, however. For one thing, the cost of adding a new breed to the registry is somewhere between $15,000-40,000. This means that it would take a minimum of 2,000 Golden Guernsey does being registered online before ADGA ever began to see its programing costs covered. Is this a responsible use of ADGA members' funds? If there are fewer than 15 people in the United States breeding these animals at this time? With there being so few purebred Golden Guernsey's in the United States, most of the others are in the process of being bred up using Swiss breeds. 

Regarding Sables, a lot of people (including me) believe they are a color sport of Saanens and ADGA would have been much better served keeping them in the Saanen herdbook with a notation that they carry a color gene. Any time you can breed two animals of the same "breed" together and get offspring that are members of another breed, there's something inherently wrong with calling the dam and the sire members of a specific breed. ADGA must move very carefully with the Golden Guernsey proposal to be sure there are enough animals entering the herd book to make it viable.

I am not against adding the Guernseys to the ADGA herdbooks at some point in time but I don't think it's something we need to rush into.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

As a breeder and owner of a lesser breed, I wouldn't think if you raised GG's Caroline you would think this is rushing. ADGA is a registry, first and foremost...to want to legitimize your paperwork, (if you tried to navigate the pet mentality of registries owned by a single person, you would be as disgusted with them as I am), save genetic information, cheaper DNA, appraisal to improve your foundation of a breed and to continue DHIR, and what better place to have input into a new USA breed than ADGA's committees...it is exactly what ADGA should be doing with our money. It is not as if we have a long list of new dairy breeds knocking at our door wanting to increase revenue.

Does everything have to be for profit to exist in ADGA. Is every program for profit in ADGA. No/no. It also was talked about that using the same program as the LaManchas will save a great deal of money, perhaps even less than the low estimate that is after all made up as of now. Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

> Does everything have to be for profit to exist in ADGA. Is every program for profit in ADGA. No/no


I agree.. but my understanding is ADGA is currently running the red. I'm not saying that to argue it should not be done.. but rather it is something to remember. ADGA has to run a profit to survive.

That said, there are obvious areas of waste ADGA could improve upon. They spend way too much redundant stuff in the mail. With the price of postage it's a huge expense. I ran a transaction online with a card which did not go through. I got an email telling me so. I immediately redid it and fixed the problem and got an email telling me it went through. Then a while later I got a letter in the mail telling me about my transaction that did not go through. Then another letter in the mail with my receipt. Both went straight in the trash. Just seems soooo inefficient.

I think they are interesting if for no reason than their rarity. On a practical level, how are they going to have enough to sanction shows? Or will they just not until there are more some day only doing LA and DHIR? I would hope they would not make it a requirement to leave all that hair. In the winter it would be fine but in the summer I would think it would make them an unproductive animal. They would just get too hot in the south if they were out grazing at all.


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## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

There have been breeders working hard toward the acceptance of the Guernsey breed for many years. This is not being rushed into at all and there are now more animals and breeders than those that were submitted. The thing about goats is they can multiply quickly. Remember back when Boers were rare.

My understanding is those cost figures were based on when the Nigerian Dwarf breed went into ADGA and would be much less for a new breed now with much in place already. But that is just what I have heard.

We have a small Guernsey herd. These goats are not just pretty they have extra rich high-butterfat milk which makes them an ideal breed for cheesemakers. I have owned Toggenburgs, LaManchas and Nigerians and must say my experience so far is Guernseys are the most docile and quiet goats we have worked with...have to watch the Nigerians don't beat them up. 
Can see our little herd of 4 here- http://www.angelfire.com/super2/poppypatch/Guernseys.html they are a work in progress but we are enjoying them.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks Shannon. Hard to find good pics of guernsey's it seems. Nice girls!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

No, Vicki, I did not read ADGA's statement (I want to now!), the 'legitamate breed' was just in general, it sounds like the Guernseys definitely are. I'm going to visit the GG website for sure. 

At the risk of getting everyone mad at me (and not just because I'm kind of going off Topic here), here's my issues with Sables and Recorded Grade. Like someone else mentioned above, I have a bit of a problem with the fact that Sables come (100% right?) out of the Saanen breed and are a breed of their own now for no other reason than that they do not fit in the all white Saanen description. Normally you would think that a kid that does not confirm to breed standard just can not get registered. I understand the kids are still valuable, so I guess I could live with that Sable Breed, if a Sable bred to a Sable would have kids registered as Sables like in any other breed, but I hear that if that combo gets a pure white kid, it will have to be registered Recorded Grade???? That makes no sense to me for two reasons, One: obviously that white, although very Saanen looking kid carries genes for color so very likely will produce 'colored' Sable looking kids and if not, then still kids that carry those 'color' genes, and Two: and this is where I think we take enormous risks, now I have a white, Saanen looking Recorded Grade, which I could choose to breed Saanen instead of Sable and then a few generations down the line I can bring the white offspring of this animal into the SAANEN breed again by registering them Saanen. (Okay, stuff Flashing while I type, so I'm posting this and will then go on in a new post).


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

So, onward from that last post. Result of registering that kid Saanen? I just registered an animal that will surely bring undesired traits (namely color) into the breed because we all know there's a lot of line breeding going on in the goat world and these recessive traits will keep on showing up if we don't stamp them out. 

This is by the way also my main concern with the Recorded Grade 'Breed'. It is no breed, we can stick a variety of animals in there and then later bring offspring back into the other breeds. So let's say I have an Oberhassli kid born with a big white spot on it's side. Oopsie, can't make that an Ob, so I will put it in Recorded Grade. I keep breeding Oberhassli and a few years later I stick the perfectly Oberhassli-looking offspring back in the Oberhassli registry, right? What people don't realize is that that big white spot is still there! Not on the goat, but in the genes and it'll pop back up again.

My point? If Sable's a breed the offspring is and stays Sable, no matter what color they are. And in my opinion we should respect Recorded grade animals for what they are: animals that can serve their purpose as pets or very valuable milkers (and we do know their breeding, so we can see they are from great lines, or not), but that did not conform to breed standards so they should never be allowed back into the original breeds. So again: Recorded Grades should have kids registered as Recorded Grade in my opinion, just to protect us from ourselves!!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Can someone explain why there is any cost at all involved in adding a new breed to ADGA herdbooks?
Communications about this done over the internet are free...the supporters of the breed are doing the legwork- ie the survey etc....don't get the idea of a big cost to ADGA. The staff is in place that does registrations so?????/Would love to know more about why there is such a cost.



> Any time you can breed two animals of the same "breed" together and get offspring that are members of another breed, there's something inherently wrong with calling the dam and the sire members of a specific breed.


This is a valid concern. 
One issue for me is that my understanding is GG that have been imported from Great Britain are limited and owners add quite a bit Saanen themselves once they land here in the US due to a shortage of sires....so we are looking at percentage GG and plan to build a herdbook from that? Limited imports- breeding on Saanen sires and then linebreeding towards a goal of a breed standard focused on a color????. With such limited imports and then line breeding what size will this gene pool be and how viable will they be without more Saanen blood infused if we cannot import more bucks? Doesn't that indeed make them a Saanen color phase? And agree if there are only a few major breeders why should all members support the seemingly huge expense of adding the breed so they can then sell us their percentage Saanens as a rare breed????. Is it a breed here in the US when breeders openly state they have used Saanen sires.... seems a pretty weak start. Would love to learn more!

Ok :biggrin- I want belted Nubians declared a breed !!!!!! :rofl Beltubians....that's it 

Shannon- please chime in more on this. Good to have an actual owner to get info from. I have always been intrigued by the breed but really was put off when all I could find was percentages. Can you explain the restrictions on importing? Thanks!

Lee


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Vicki, what is the GG website address? Found some websites, but they don't seem to be the official website.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> Remember back when Boers were rare.


Shannon...also remember when Boers were white with red heads. 
Now they are so mysteriously spotted and red and chocolate etc....but no....there is no Nubian blood in the Boer herd...no they are 100 % Boer. MAh PATOOTIE! 
I have no objection to this because my eyes are open but really what a sham on buyers paying huge money for 'spotted Boers' :/ I see the same thing happening with the GG. Colored Saanens....which they already had and rejected... so confusing :rofl


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Is that not exactly what laManchas are? A cross of an earless goat bred into all ADGA dairy breeds? The presedent has already been set. GG's are a color breed, you aren't going to just be able to breed to any old dairy doe and keep the golden skin.

The obie with the white spot comment: It's why if you don't want animals that at one time had ancestory that was unknown or has breed related faults, you don't bring American blood into your herd, especially in the form of bucks. Why we have talked about for a very long time, giving us generations on our pedigrees from recorded grade onto American paperwork. Then you can see how many generations the unknown animal or the breed fault animal is away from the current animal you are interested in. Obviously an animal with a 2 is much less valuable than a 13...which in the end would help the American Nubian breeders.

I am not a Sannen breeder, but I do know most admitted that colored kids were simply killed at birth or sold for meat, it of course would devalue the quality of your sire if it was known he threw colored kids, so it was a deep dark secret  Sables were bred and the breed continued, and just like GG there wasn't a lot of them. They still show in AOP in most shows and I don't believe have enough showing, like RG to show at national show over the years. Alpines, Saanens and Oberhaslie and Toggs are shown in AOP quite often, so adding GG's isn't going to add that much to a show. With so few shows and the numbers of animals showing much lower, GG's in your area would mean more revenue for the club hosting.

I remember vividly a Texas breeder who had Sables, she faught tooth and nail for the judge to allow her recorded grade sable into the buck show (sables were not recorded grades they were just stuck in that book for registry)...the judge clearly had never heard of sables and the gal was certainly not known for her tact or pleasing personality  I went home from the show and read up on Sables after that  Vicki

The point is the GG's are looking for a home to register these new to America goats.

Lee we can't import 'real' GG's, and the UK GG breeders are militant even about what you call the GG's in America  But of course  V


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

ADGA requires a minimum of 100 animals with 4 generation pedigrees to ask for a new breed to ask to fall under ADGAs umbrella.

As of last year (2010) US breeders had registered 116 with BGS which met that requirement.

There are over 30 breeders working with the breed, with more coming on board all the time, most of these have Guernseys in all stages of up grading from 1/2 Guernseys to British Guernseys (equal to Purebred) and everything in between.

Some breeders are holding on to register kids/ yearlings, hoping they can do so with ADGA rather than the BGS.

As an example of numbers, I myself have over 60 mature does, my husband has only 2 , and none of our 2011 kids have yet to be registered.

Please understand the Golden Guernsey (the parent breed) is a recognized rare breed, with less than 350 does of breedable age in the world.

Because purebred does are not available (because import from UK is impossible) our USA program is upgrading from swiss type dairy does, crossing to purebred Golden Guernsey bucks (available from 1 farm in NY), semen from said purebred GG bucks, imported semen form UK, and more recently British Guernsey Bucks here in USA.

And because the British Goat Society has exclusive rights to the breed name Golden Guernsey, and they refuse to accept any upgrading to purebred status we are using the name Guernsey Goat for the animals here in USA. This is how this same situation was handled with the Golden Guernsey Cow/Guernsey Cow.

I'm sorry I can't give you an actual number, but hopefully my answer gives you a more complete understanding of the Guernsey Goat here in USA.

Nina

[email protected]
www.AninsDairyGoats.com


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Sounds like there's quite a herd of Guernsey's here in the US for several years already then. I think you're right comparing them to LaManchas and how that breed came to be, so it seems to me they should be allowed to be named a breed also. 

I completely agree on the generations thing from Recorded Grade, that would help, and definitely decrease the risk of just rotating recessive traits back into the breed. 

I have Saanens and have found out that color DOES occasionally pop up in pure, registered Saanens, but if you ask other Saanen Breeders about it......they NEVER have that happen. Right! Anyway, just last week at the Indiana State Fair, one of our Sr. kids 100% Saanen, was put in last place in her class because she has a 'dorsal stripe' and markings by the eyes (and she does, we just never noticed, it is so incredibly light, just some light colored hairs in between the white ones, but definitely in an 'Alpine type' pattern). The judge was very nice about it, told my daughter it was the nicest animal in the ring, but she couldn't judge it as a Saanen, but that we can re-register and show her Sable. Okay, so we go and see the Sable show to see what next year's competition would be like, expecting to see a variety of true colored animals and a bunch of 'whities with some markings' like our doeling. Not a single whitish animal in both open and 4H show! All 'Alpine' and 'Tog' coloring. So by now I'm thinking we'll just keep our doeling as is, and just not register her kids, just keep them as milkers, because we are talking a nice future milker here. Since she herself is out of a whole Saanen family, I expect her kids to be white, so they wouldn't qualify as Sables anyway. I'll just keep them as 'Dairy Goats' for myself, and I'm pretty sure they'll do great for me. hey, maybe i can breed the doeling with a Guernsey, she'd be perfect!!!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

www.goldenguernseygoat.org.uk


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Shannon They are just Lovely! Yours almost look like Golden saanens


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## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

This is the Guernsey grading up ladder which is basically the same system with any American dairy goat in ADGA except they are called British Guernsey rather than American because they are registered with BGS. Each generation must conform to breed standard as in ADGA. Once you have British Guernsey bucks along with the purebreds there is a gene pool plenty large enough to work with like any other American dairy breed. I believe the inclusion of the breed in ADGA programs would greatly improve the quality of the breed overall.

The BGS grading up ladder to British Guernsey:- 

1) IR (Identification Register) - any female of any age. For BG purposes no Nubian/Munchie/Mini blood. 

2) SR (Supplementary Register) - female any age with a GG sire. 

3) FB (Foundation Book) - female maximum two yrs with GG sire and SR dam. 

4) HB1 (Herd Book ) - female maximum two yrs with GG sire and FB dam. 

5) HB2 (Herd Book) - female or male maximum 2 yrs with GG sire and HB1 dam. 

6) BG (British Guernsey) - female or male maximum 2 yrs with GG sire 
and HB2 dam. 

That is the shortest route using maximum GG blood. You CAN use HB2 bucks but will add at least one extra generation. 

Purebred genetics can only come from bucks from Southwind Farm or imported semen. Our Guernseys only have Oberhasli ancestors(no Saanen) but too far back to show up on their British Guernsey pedigrees.


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## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

This will be posted in the ADGA newsletter along with the poll...

Guernsey Goat Breed History
The Golden Guernsey goat originated on the Channel Islands (British Crown Dependencies) in the English Channel. These islands were ports of call for sailing ships, sailing out of the Mediterranean and headed for the Cornish tin mines since long before the birth of Christ. These ships often carried goats and other animals, trading them and acquiring others all along their routes and no doubt continued this on the Channel Islands. Thus the ancestry of the Golden Guernsey is uncertain shrouded in mystery and antiquity. The Golden Guernsey Goat breed (the Guernsey Goat's parent breed) is a rare breed, listed with the Rare Breeds Trust, and currently recognized by the British Goat Society and the Golden Guernsey Goat Society of the United Kingdom. The Guernsey Goats in the United States are currently registered with the BGS. It is clear that the ancestry using the Golden Guernsey, as the parent breed, results in the Guernsey Goat being unique among the dairy goats of North America and brings to ADGA its heritage of hardiness and the ability to produce good quantities of milk, high in butterfats, proteins and cheese yield. USA Department of Agriculture regulations do not allow import of live goats from any country in Europe. Working within this restriction, the original U.S. Guernseys were achieved from two systems. One group was born from the use of Artificial Insemination (AI) on domestic dairy does, using semen imported from the United Kingdom, breeding up to meet the 4/6 generations required. A second group was born from the use of domestic dairy does, bred to Golden Guernsey bucks which came from the South Wind herd (either via AI or natural breedings). The Golden Guernsey bucks resulted from the get of frozen embryos imported into Canada and implanted in domestic females, which were then brought back into the U.S.A. to kid by Mr. and Mrs. Allen Skolnick, of South Wind Farms, Gilbertsville, NY. This avenue of importing frozen embryos has since been prohibited, as well.

The Guernsey Goat is a unique and distinctive breed.
While it shares some of the physical characteristics of the Swiss type breeds now registered with ADGA, it is a different and unique breed, from its yellow skin to the Golden Guernsey's (Guernsey Goat's parent breed) mystery of origin. In response to a recent mitochondrial DNA project done in Spain, the following is a paragraph from an article by Phil Sponenberg in the January-February edition of The American Livestock Breeds Conservancy News. “The Golden Guernsey goat remains a mystery - its origin on the island of Guernsey should leave it related to a great many somewhat local breeds, and yet it showed no good clear relationship to any. This is puzzling and may be further sorted out by testing more goats of this breed. Whatever the final conclusions, the Golden Guernsey surely warrants conservation as a unique genomic resource.”

GUERNSEY GOAT BREED STANDARD 
The Guernsey dairy goat was developed using genetics from the rare Golden Guernsey Goats, an official dairy breed registered with the British Goat Society. The Guernsey dairy goat is medium in size. The ears are erect and often set slightly lower than Swiss breeds and carried horizontally, or forward in what is termed the “bonnet” position when viewed in profile. Ear tips can be slightly upturned. The ears must not be pendulous. The nose should be either straight or dished. The Guernsey coat/hair color should be shades of gold, ranging from very pale flaxen cream to deep russet or bronze. Full or partial roaning; white patches; white face; star/blaze are acceptable. The golden body color should be dominant, with no preference shown to any shade or pattern. Hair may be short or long and flowing or a combination of both. A long curtain, skirt, and/or dorsal fringe of body hair is desirable, although not required to meet standard. Skin color must display some gold tone, ranging from peachy-flesh to orange-gold. Dominantly gold toned skin is preferred. Swiss facial stripes and/or rump marking; black markings or spots over 1.5inches are not allowed.
FAULTS


MODERATE
Mature does less than: Min. height (26 in / 66 cm) 
Min. weight (120 lbs / 54.54 kg)
Mature bucks less than: Min. height (28 in / 71 cm) 
Min. weight (150 lbs / 68.18 kg)
MODERATE TO SERIOUS
(depending upon degree) Roman nose
VERY SERIOUS DEFECTS
Black hairs in the coat
Dominantly white coat on mature does.
Dominantly gray, pink or black skin.

DISQUALIFICATIONS
No gold tone to skin
Swiss facial stripes and/or rump marking
(as on Toggenburg or Oberhasli breeds )
Black markings or spots in the hair over 1.5 inch
(3.8 cm) in any direction.
Pendulous ears
LaMancha type ears
All white coat on mature does
All white or dominantly white coat on bucks


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Lee - as I understand it, the biggest cost to ADGA is in the programing. The LaMancha herd book can be used as a template but codes will need to be assigned, among other things.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

With ADGA now owning their computer, we don't have to go into the costs of that...what exactly is this cost coming from? Do we hire an IT guy piece meal and the quote will be his salary to write the code and copy and paste the link from the UK of original pedigrees....and if not why is this not just housekeeping work performed by the office help we already have? It is not as if we have to buy a $12,000 program, we have 8 such programs being used now? I read the ND cost projections and it was the same exact estimate, yet we never have gotten the question answered, what did it cost in the end? I can see the sables costing more because it was man hours pulling them from other herdbooks. So have the ND and Sables paid their way since gaining entrance? I find that hard to believe with so few registered each year. I just see such a difference in the tone of which the GG's survey was written compared to the ND...sad. It's pretty obvious the ND were allowed input into their survey which we know the GG's were not. I would hope that ADGA doesn't start off in such a PR disaster with the new breed like they did with the ND folks! Vicki


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

COST.

Seems the catch-22 is amiss in being part of the solution.

The numbers are small and may not generate a lot of income for quite some time. So what!

Open the gate, start registering them (by hand, the old fashioned way) until there is enough income generated to make someone (or several someones) happy in ADGA land.

I wonder how many of the clerical staff can even work a manual typewriter (the way they did it in years [decades] gone by).

The roadblocks that seem to always appear when asking for something just a tad different (or new) never ceases to amaze me -- folks, filling out a registration certificate is NOT rocket science.

This is an opportunity for ADGA to "step up" ... :/


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Conservatism is alive and well in ADGA land, always has been, always will be. Lets not be what we are supposed to be, a registry! I mean somebody actually said today, on District 6 or Nubian Talk....'ADGA already has added 2 breeds in the last 10 years'....can you even imagine spinning this to be a negative? But they are.....


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Yep... disappointing, but NOT surprising in the least. Ripple not the waters of complacency and "this is what we've always done..."

Maybe ADGA needs to have a "gold members" status (for those that want all the frills of nothingness and programs for the elite few), and a "regular members" status for those that want to register their animals (to satisfy NAIS, etc.) and don't give a fig about the other COSTLY programs (and programming!).

Idea... nah, I can't hold my breath that long!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Now I am an all inclusive fun lovin type of goat gal as evidenced by the fact that I intentionally cross bred for our milk production for several years but...really I honestly have some problems with this.



> The Guernsey Goat is a unique and distinctive breed.


Ahhhhemmm....but it isn't if it does not reproduce itself.



> One group was born from the use of Artificial Insemination (AI) on domestic dairy does, using semen imported from the United Kingdom, breeding up to meet the 4/6 generations required.


Which makes it a cross bred.



> A second group was born from the use of domestic dairy does, bred to Golden Guernsey bucks which came from the South Wind herd


Which again is a cross bred animal- not a breed.

What you are saying is that I can take a great cross that kinda sorta looks the same sometimes and declare it a breed. In fact I will do that- I had a super line of LM/Nub crosses that always were solid red with elf ears. LaMaRedNubs...yah that's it....a new breed. You know....Give it a Name! :biggrin

I Love Goats and I Love ADGA but it seems definitions get stretched or contracted according to who makes the most noise. I recently remember hideous noise about opening the Nubian herd books to real live certifiable Nubians with some of the same heritage as the major herds and the cacophony against animals that are not nearly as questionable as these was horrendous....squeaky wheel gets the grease.... but we can make a whole new herd book putting our org in serious debt for a very few breeders that have a pet project?

Why is this offspring seen as anything more than an American of a recognized breed?

Why can an animal that is only a cross of a little more than half be called a breed?

The only defining characteristic of gold skin is being stretched from 'some gold cast' to mostly gold. 
A bit vague to base a breed on and mostly wide open descriptions otherwise.

I am honestly asking for definitions of why this can be seen as a breed.

Mystery goats that I have raised don't get ADGA registration numbers.... :rofl

Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

LaMancha's are mystery breeds of all dairy goats, and even now as long as they have the lamancha no ear can be in Purebred in just 4 generations. ND are in fact Pygmy's selected over generations from a meat breed to a dairy goat (gaining entrance into AGS with nothing more than a photo of 'yep their dairy'). Oberhasli's were pulled from Alpines in my early years of ADGA. Sables arived with Saanen's off the boat... then someone wanted Saanens to be white only, so Sables were pulled out and put into recorded grade. 

Miniature LaMancha's (way way more than 100 miniature LaMancha's just in East Texas let alone nationwide to ask for a herdbook right now), Minature Nubians will be next...there is already talk of a stand alone herd book for recorded/experimental grading up program for ND that contain ADGA full size dairy goats and yes they are considered to be purebred after 5 generations  Are there really any purebred goats in America, nope not a one, we just call them that  V


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I think what we need to think about here is that "breeds" are a mostly man-made thing and are animals of a species with certain common characteristics. Any animal of a species can cross with any other, regardless of breed, and in fact this is how most breeds or types of animals are created in the wild or by man. Most "breeds" of goats here were created using crosses of other breeds. 

You should try looking up sheep breeds sometime. Most of the descriptions will say things like, this breed is ...% this ...% that, etc. That's just the way that breeds are created.


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Are there really any purebred goats in America, nope not a one, we just call them that  V
[/quote]

Well... now where have I heard THAT before LOL


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Good discussion and both sides make great points. I am learning a lot from this and also realizing that the question 'what is a breed' is a good one, but hard to answer. I remember that when I was in college in the Netherlands there was huge research in sheep to find a 'hybrid' (yeah that would be a crossbred) that would be able to produce 3 litters in 2 years. They found the right combination and over the years made this into a now official breed (I believe this is the Flevolander Sheep), so it can be done. Reason is usually because you want to improve something on an existing breed (more milk, higher fat/protein, more offspring, etc) or to 'save' a small breed, i.e. keep the genetics of that small breed alive. The last thing would be the case here, so I guess that would be a legit reason. As in improvement on an existing breed: not so much here, since I think the Saanen breed can not be improved upon by the GG, it would be the other way around.

What worries me here is that (like in the Lamanchas) a variety of breeds are used to be bred with GG semen, even breeds that will bring unacceptable traits (swiss coloring) into the breed (I've heard Alpine and Oberhassli so far) and knowing that the numbers of this Guernsey breed will be small........these traits will show up very fast in this population once you start breeding aGuernsey to Guernsey. Probably would have been better to stick to Saanens only. If you look at the LaManchas, where color doesn't matter: those animals are all over the place in how they look: color wise, sizewise and type wise, and that bothers me a bit (I have LaMancha's by the way). As for the minis.....seriously, do we want a mini breed for every breed? wouldn't that just be a hobby-thing? Does that have to be a breed on it's own? Just wondering. So I guess I'm still supporting the G, but worrying about breeds chosen to prodeuce them, and not supporting the gates that will be opened for a whole swarm of breeds that are being created for 'fun' and not for specific (agricultural) reasons.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Marion- I don't have a 'side'. I don't have enough information to have an serious opinion. I just don't think it is much of a discussion if everyone is agreeing on everything with few questions. That is simple cheerleading. How can you respond intelligently to the survey if you don't ask questions.They are presenting information for us to question not swallow whole with nodding head. And saying something should be done because it was done in the past carries no weight at all. 

Besides my contract states I must occasionally vigorously disagree with Vicki :rofl

That goes out to the sillybutt that emailed to ask if Vicki hired me to irritate the few people she could not :biggrin

I do think it differs quite a bit from the LaMancha story and I am of course aware that all breeds are developed. Just question the need for ADGA herdbook when an owner registry would suffice until there is more long term evidence of dominant heritable traits. 

Can someone point me to info on why the import of goats to US is banned?
Thanks
Lee


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

> Besides my contract states I must occasionally vigorously disagree with Vicki
> 
> That goes out to the sillybutt that emailed to ask if Vicki hired me to irritate the few people she could not


 :rofl Besides, if that's what she's hired you for, it isn't working. She ought to terminate your contract. :biggrin


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I did put that wrong, using the word 'sides', my apologies. On the import question: I know importing live cows from Europe and especially UK has been out of the question since BSE came along, I am pretty sure that rule includes more than just cows, it probably includes all livestock.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

This would be the web page with USDA info on importing ruminants:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/animals/cattle_import.shtml


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I think sometimes people get confused about the difference between breeds and species. I love my Lamanchas but aren't they really just a brush or spanish type goat that got bred up by crossing with established dairy breeds? Those ears crop up here and there all over the world and in America probably came from the Spanish/brush goats, not from some obscure crate of goats from Spain. My point is that breeds are developed by man or are a landrace like Longhorns or Spanish goats. You have to work with animals for generations to get traits to appear uniformly within a group of animals to call them a breed. I personally think it would be wonderful to have another dairy breed. As big as this country is we should have a bunch! Look how many livestock breeds The Netherlands has and they are a tiny country.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Grumpy Old Buck said:


> Are there really any purebred goats in America, nope not a one, we just call them that  V


Well... now where have I heard THAT before LOL 
.................................

Bill...I OF COURSE was not talking about Purebred Nubians....they are of course Purebred back to the boat  HA!

[/quote]


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## Hickoryneck (Jul 29, 2011)

Here is a pic of a goat I sold last fall she was golden a cross of a Saanan and a Oberhasli. She was wild and mean to the others so I sold her for $75 a few months later I saw the new owner and she loves her so I am glad it all worked out for Carrie. Golden goats can be made from breeds we have now but if they have a pure breed that is all golden I think that could be cool too I wish I had a golden gold in my current herd. I mean it's no different then the Saanan breed which were selected for color. If there are enough of the purebred goldens in America then they should be added but if they are still in the works with limited stock then maybe they need a few more years to build the breed here in this country. God knows we don't want ADGA to raise our rates any higher because they had to make a new computer file in their system to hold the pedigrees for a new breed


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I'm all for it. I met one Golden Guernsey and fell in love. i wish I had the money to start building/breeding up a GG herd. I think opening ADGA up to new breeds is a good idea, will bring in new revenue, more genetics and hopefully more members. The more varieties of breeds, the better when it comes to the future. Who knows which breeds will flourish in the future and which will succumb to what we are doing to the earth.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I cannot answer the question on whether there needs to be a mini of every breed. However, I will say they are not just being bred for fun...at least that is not the reason I am breeding them.

From the Nigerian side, they have:
1. Higher butterfat for cheesemaking
2. Greater kidding percentages
3. Better feed efficiency
4. Longer breeding season

From the large breed goat, they have:
1. Higher volume of milk
2. Larger size than ND

I personally like my mini alpines because they are the one mini breed that you don't have to breed for ears or colors. They are pretty much always born the proper color, and their ears are definitely always the right type. So, the more important things like structure and productivity can be focused on. I like the mid-size goat, that is easier to handle than the larger goats, and fits in a smaller space, but you can still fit the milk pail under, and the teats are larger for milking. They make great family milkers, and fit on smaller properties. They also tend to have nicer personalities than the full size alpines. They are bigger than Nigerians, so there is a little better meat market for the culls.


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

I will add another positive or two I have seen from the "Mini" breeds with the Nigerian influence.

Not all, but far more than not, I have seen improved feet and legs, in particular hooves in the animals with ND blood in their ancestry. Also, I have seen several that are taken seriously for their 'dairy ability' and have also seen these same animals milk for extended/2-year lactations while holding (some MORE than needed) good flesh.

I see a bright future for Mini breeds if they are managed and bred properly and promoted as the dairy animals they truly can be. (sorry, this is a Golden goat thread, but the Minis were mentioned and I like to give Kudos to them and their development).


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

As a nonmember I can't comment on ADGA politics. The fees are really high to me (having just mailed in 5, ouch!). I'd be more excited about AGS taking on new breeds as I have been a member for several years, they are well respected, and the fees are not so high. I noticed in the most recent AGS newsletter that some people are buying ADGA animals and registering them AGS *without* transferring them in ADGA. That seems messy to me. So ADGA has one owner on record, while AGS has another. I think ADGA should examine why that might be happening.

As for minis, I have been thinking alot about this idea of "pet breeders", and I have reached a moment of clarity. There is a difference between breeding a high quality pet dairy-type animal and breeding for looks. There is an obvious market for pet dairy-type goats. The standard dairy goats do not always make good pets. They have been bred for a commercial purpose and that doesn't always translate to a great pet. A good pet should be an easy keeper, they should kid easily without assistance, they should have excellent mothering skills, they should have good dispositions, they should be parasite resistant, and yes, they should be attractive. And as for "dairy-type" they should have nice milkable udders and decent production. I think the mini breeds show great promise in serving the needs of the pet market and can be bred responsibly to fill that niche. I have found it much easier to handle the midsize goat versus a Dwarf. If there are qualities about the minis that interest commercial producers, I think that is fine, there just may end up being different types within the breed if they do not share the same goals. (This is not uncommon in horses.) I do believe though that there can be excellence and shoddiness in breeding pet goats, just as there is in breeding dogs or horses. Anyone who has ever bought a well bred dog knows it is a joy. My farm collie is so smart she literally trained herself through observation.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes Bill I think an Experimental ND herdbook will be exciting to start and will be very very popular.

Angie as a non member you also pay the highest fees, we pay lower fees and we get so much more for those fees, than any other registry. Lets face it ADGA is AKC, the other registries are the low brow dog clubs that make up the rules as they go like CKC :rofl 

The problem with the owner owned pet registries and AGS is that AGS only will accept purebreds, and owner owned registries are what they want and their vision only. They also come with few to no shows, no appraisals, no genetics site, and of course simply aren't ADGA. I don't want to limit my goats to only the pet market, these little dairy goats with their hybrid vigor, especially the miniature LaManchas, are the best of both worlds with so much less grain for more milk, with easy keeping abilities. It will also take a forward thinking breed standard, to keep that heigth in the cannon bone and not just cobby the breed down but shrinking leg bone length, but make them a true minature, so inflations can fit underneath them, especially with how cheap milking machines are....we see a lot of people now with milking machines milking very small herds, even me  V


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Reminds me of some mini horses I've seen who look front heavy with a big ol' head on a little body. I have noticed a difference in my original minis and others I have seen, in that mine are small all over, while some seem "bigger" even though they are short. It is like they are still big goats with short legs. Most of mine originated with a couple Nubians I have that are at the small end of breed standard, and I line bred. Alot of people shy away from line breeding, but I think it is the only way to go. Why work so hard to choose those first Nubians and NDs and then outcross every year? By the 5th gen most of your original genetics are gone.

AGS's non-member fees are cheaper than ADGA's *member* fees. But honestly I think ADGA's stance on NAIS probably has alot to do why some people would refuse to transfer their papers. I know some people that will not let ADGA have their name. We can think what we think of that, but I think it is noteworthy. I'm too fussy with my papers to leave mine untransferred. That is too messy for me to have registries recording differing information. I don't get too hung up on the snob appeal of registries. My interest is purely pragmatic. There are plenty lovely dogs, like my fabulous farm collie, who are not AKC. And I had AGS NDs that I didn't think much of for all their purebred status. But there I go again making choices based upon what matters to *me*. I am not a business woman, and I'm cool with that. I just enjoy doing what I do.


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> The problem with the owner owned pet registries and AGS is that AGS only will accept purebreds, and owner owned registries are what they want and their vision only.


Vicki, this has always *bothered* me ... the fact that AGS is "purebreds only" ... YET (or if you prefer, But!) they allow American status animals in their 'National Shows' and even allow *AMERICAN* animals to be their AGS Show National Champion.

Hmmmm, not so many faces since perhaps Sally Field in her starring role <G>


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

But isn't that just kind of AGS's thing? But I see both sides. A large chunk of the membership is NDs, and yet look at how we got them. There's got to be some control though. I see Pygmy/ND crosses on craigs all the time - please tell me *why*? :really


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

See below the resounding win for the Guernsey Goat in the poll! Thank you everyone who voted! Now we have to pressure our directors to do what the majority wants...to find the money and lets get real here, the quote they gave us is nearly 3/4th of the IT guys salary, really it's going to take our IT tech 9 months working on nothing but GG inputting??? I don't believe these costs for one second! We are a registry, we need to bring in more revenue, we can't just spend...wow does that sound like something I have said before!!!! Email and talk to your directors! Don't give them an excuse to send this back to committee like they do everything else!!!!! Vicki


1. Do you believe the Guernsey Goat, as described in the breed standard above, should be recognized as a breed of dairy goat?

338 YES
88 NO

2. The British Goat Society and Golden Guernsey Goat Society of England are the current holders of pedigree information. Should ADGA rely upon this pedigree information in determining the conformance to breed standard requirements? The pedigrees supplied do not have color descriptions of the animals.

276 YES
150 NO

3. Are you in favor of ADGA recognizing the Guernsey Goat as an official ADGA breed?

313 YES
114 NO

4. Should ADGA recognize the Guernsey Goat breed even if the cost of establishing the breed cannot be recovered within five years?

259 YES
168 NO


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

GUERNSEY PROPOSAL was postponed, but the great news is that ADGA will appoint a task force to address how to accept the Guernseys as a breed.

Saw this on facebook...what does it mean? Are we funding a task force instead of the herd book?
Please update if you have info.
Thanks


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Shannon, they are beautiful! I want one


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Anyone with questions should friend Nina Schafer on Facebook and ask her about this. Yes they have over 100 animals. Yes they have more than 15 breeders. NO they do not have their colors stated on their paperwork from England BECAUSE THEIR REGISTRY DOES NOT PUT THIS ON THEIR PAPERWORK, in England when you click "Conforms to breed standard" they take the word of the person registering the Golden Guernsey that she in fact has gold tone to her skin and conforms to breed standard....unlike ADGA who is now wanting to confirm this like they are liars. So of course, like anything that takes a backbone, ADGA sent this back to committee, of course our chair likely sat and said nothing, and of course no matter what the task force comes up with the board will still do as they please. The GG folks did as they were supposed to do, the poll also....ADGA members voted to let the breed in, and now the board caves to the few who don't want this to happen. 

Why can we not find out how much it actually cost to get the ND their herdbook?
Why can we not find out how much it actually cost to get the Sables their herdbook?
Why is the estimate to give the GG's their herdbook nearly a years salary for the tech at ADGA? I mean really he is that stupid that it will take him that long and who will do the tech stuff for ADGA While he is toiling doing all this work on just a herdbook???
Who is going to be on this task force, want to bet a dozen donuts it will not include many who are not directors, and nobody like Nina Shaffer who breeds the breed....this will be intersting to watch. 

Will they make all the GG animals send in photos to see if you can see the gold tone to their skin? Or will each animal have to be appraised? Who is going to pay for this?

ADGA is FINALLY in the black....so lets not be forward thinking and add another breed....and if we do lets piss them all off first like we did to the ND and Sable folks.

Obviously I have asked not to be on committee  SHOCKER!!! dance: Where is the butt to go along with this kissing avatar!!! It's emotionally exhausting and a huge waste of time when most of what you do is already decided. We knew going in nobody would vote for the changes asked for by the ND group, we knew going in nobody would do anything about the GG's. We knew going in they would never redistrict. In fact by redistricting and making our programs have to be self supporting, we ccould afford to bring in the GG's and the experimental ND herd book. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Ok but wait....the vote of the membership was in favor of the new herd book- couldn't we do some kind of fund drive amongst ourselves (like selling each other goats hahaah) to support the acceleration of this process if we really want it to happen? I don't see why some creative thinking could not be applied to get what the voting indicates the members want. This would let those who support it pay for it and others could sit it out. 
Lee


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Well... But the way I see it is, the membership already voted. The majority voted to allow them. Why should we now try and come up with money or whatever? We already decided to do it. Alas for people who don't want it, they have to go along with the majority. They should be grown ups and accept that they do not get to have their way, and make it easy for this to happen. I am new and have no idea if the ADGA is membership driven or not, but if it is not... it SHOULD be. If the membership says "We want to do this" the directors, it seems to me, need to make it happen.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh you two are just so funny!!!!! "accelerate the process" now perhaps if someone on the EC had GG's than maybe. "creative thinking" maybe creative bookkeeping but thinking, na. "If the membership says "We want to do this" the directors, it seems to me, need to make it happen." So so simple!!! "What the members want" I would hasten to bet that our directors don't get but a handful of emails from those who put them in office before convention (and why we don't need 2 or 3 or 5 directors per district anymore, not in the age of the internet we don't, they cost us way to much money! We really only need 2 pre district so they can share travel and hotel rooms  ...I know for a fact, besides me, all directors got emails from those wanting to move forward with the GG's and explaining to them all of the points the task force will come up with if they work on this. The GG members are seeminly happy that AT LEAST a task force was established, AT LEAST...at the very least....maybe we should move this to Off Topic so I can tell you how I really feel  LOL! :rofl


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Jaquee I meant in order to remove the obstacle of the cost so it could proceed without more drama.
It is a consideration and why not let the members who support it fund it- do you think your tiny dues pay for anything?
Tiny fees for everything! My biz costs have gone up 150% - I don't expect them to be able to pay for every new thing we want to do. What on earth is wrong with fund raising for a pet project?
L


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## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

I was urged to write letters to my directors and to Robin. The letter we received back from Robin was very telling. Can say the Guernsey breeders were fully aware ADGA was going to go against the membership and this proposal would not pass before the vote ever happened. 

They used the lame excuse about the lack of color description on the BGS papers. Which if they are not of correct coloring they do not meet standard so same difference as putting the actual color description on the papers.
They also said they have to be really careful adding new breeds from now on because of what has happened with Sables and the lack of interest in that breed after being added to ADGA...What!? Apples and oranges...

Shannon


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I am sure we got the same letter in committee...and yep it was a fore gone conclusion.

There was no talking to them either during sables, why on earth were the Sables not just given a color code IN the Sannen herdbook with no discrimination. In committee it wasn't even 'allowed' to be part of the discussion.

I wonder if any directors or chairs stood up and explained about the color on their paperwork, it's so simple! It's not on Englands paperwork like it is ADGA's!!!

We could tighten our belts if we wanted to, and until we know costs, how can they even say it is about money?


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## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

BGS does not do everything exactly like ADGA. The papers from BGS are very plain and simple. Pedigree with the breeder/owner info printed on a heavy piece of plain white paper. You still must sign off that the animal meets breed standard even if the color is not described on the papers. We still need a bill of sale for transfers and service memos for breeding to outside bucks.
Everyone can be thankful for the low membership rates in ADGA. A year membership in BGS cost over $90 mainly because they send out monthly full color booklets and we here pay for overseas postage. The books are interesting with lots of photos. They even had an article on one of the US Guernsey breeders.

Not sure what costs ADGA so much adding in another breed? 

Shannon


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Welcome back from Convention Caroline-
Let us know if you can add to this topic with more current info.
Thanks
Lee


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Thanks Lee. My viewpoint is quite a bit different than Vicki's, but I will post anyway. 

While a majority of the poll respondents did vote in favor of a Guernsey Goat herdbook (me included), they were certainly not a majority of ADGA members. Only a little over 400 people responded to the poll out of a total of more than 8,000 ADGA members.

The Sable and Nigerian herdbooks were entered in the old database, so it's extremely difficult to compare opening a new herdbook today with those herdbooks that were opened several years ago. Additionally, there are more issues than just the color description. Will they be judged with their haircoat intact? If so, how will their skirting be pinned back so their udders can be seen? How much is "some" golden skin tone? One of the Guernsey bucks Nina had on display in Grand Rapids had no gold tone to his skin on his body at all, only on his ears and scrotum. Is this acceptable? A task force is absolutely the best way to have as many questions answered as possible before these animals are awarded their own herdbook. And the task force will also work on a template so that future breeds will have a roadmap to recognition. 

Just to clarify, these goats are not Golden Guernseys, although a lot of people here in the States call them that. They are Guernsey Goats. Golden Guernseys are a closed herdbook of a fairly small number of goats that all reside in the United Kingdom.

Also to clarify, Kit is the only employee in the ADGA office who is qualified to work on the computer programming. However, one of the things the BOD did approve at this meeting was another position in the office for someone who is trained to do the day-to-day computer things including maintenance and free up Kit to work on the long list of "to-dos" that he has.

Regarding Nigerian Dwarf goats, they were accepted into ADGA with the express understanding that there would be no experimental herd book. This was the choice of the Nigerian Dwarf breeders. And it is Nigerian Dwarf breeders who continue to tell us that (a) they don't want an Experimental herd book and (b) they don't want the breed standard changed to allow taller goats. And we certainly don't want animals "de-registered" or moved into another herdbook if they develop a breed-specific disqualification when they're three or four years old and have progeny in the herdbooks already. It would affect several generations of animals.

Yes, I'm all for allowing the Guernsey Goats a herdbook in ADGA. No, I'm not for doing it in a hurry up manner that will cause problems down the road. Caroline


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks for that additional info Caroline. 
About the numbers...it is the same in our politician decisions- only those who participate get to decide! Imagine that  Think how few select our directors!
Lots of questions- who will decide who is on the 'task force' (sorta militarized now huh :rofl) and how many and how will their expenses be addressed and who is eligible to be considered for the task force and will they accept input from membership that we think are relevant issues to question and and 
Lee


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2011)

In regards to ND breeders, changing the height of bucks.. they have not taken a poll to find out how many breeders want it changed.. they are listening to a few.. ND heights were based on pygmys, they measured a few hundred pygmy goats and set the standards.. they are two separate breeds.. 
Barb


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## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

The darker gold tone to the skin has a lot to do with sun exposure. Like on Toggs the skin gets darker on areas most exposed to sunlight. We knew a Togg breeder in CA who kept all her does inside all the time and you could always pick out her does in any lineup because of their pale pink udders from lack of sun. 
I personally would prefer not showing my Guernseys the natural hair coat. Hopefully there would be a choice since it is not required to have a long coat to meet standard.

To clarify not ALL Golden Guernseys reside in the UK. There is a small herd of purebred animals in NY owned by South Wind Farm. US breeders have used/owned many Swind bucks for breeding Guernseys.

As for the height issue for NDs there are MANY breeders IN FAVOR of raising the height of bucks...


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