# American Goat Society



## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

If you are a member of AGS -I would like some information and I am asking if you can find it out for me. 

Has AGS membership increased in the last 3-5 years or remained the same? 

Also has there been an increase in Nubians registered in the past 3-5 years?

What is the cost of joining, registering, and transferring an animal?


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Hey Tim, have you snooped around on their website?? It should have the fee schedule on it.
http://www.americangoatsociety.com/


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks Janie,
That answers my question about fees. It is really the other questions though that I am curious about.

Has the membership increased in the past 3 years?

Has Nubian registrations increased. 

Some say ADGA's membership is falling off and so are overall goat registrations. I was wondering if the same is happening to AGS.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

If you write to them via the email on the website they normally answer any questions very promptly.
I asked about re-registering our herd should ADGA decide to open the herdbooks to Americans and they were very forthcoming with info about the process and what they would expect. I think they will be glad to answer your questions. 
Perhaps everyone is getting tired of the screaming :rofl

email: [email protected]
Amy will answer.

Lee


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Tired Of the screaming, I've been hitting the delete key in my mail box. between the ags adga, and the ambassodor bottle neck crisis :help2


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## Hollybrook (Jul 17, 2009)

Lee can you explain yourself please? ADGA's book are open to American's, AGS isnt but thier considering re-opeing thier american heard books. Was it a typo or Im not following your post

Respectfully
Dave


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I of course think that Raspberry has a point, and I really don't understand at all why the conversation is being squelched. If you look at pedigrees, what he is saying is true. Everyone can say they are breeding what they are, but the proof is in the ADGA data base, it is the animals being registered that count. I wish folks could talk openly about pedigrees without such hurt feelings all the time. It isn't personal. Vicki


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, I wish they could too. It's the griping back and forth, and the defending, and the counterattacks that get me reaching for the delete key.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

In our district many members are very vocal in being negative about their association.
But it is mostly political in nature and instigated by particular personalities and not really based on poor service from either ADGA or AGS.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I guess those of us who have zero idea what you are talking about should be grateful? :rofl


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Well there are a couple of things going on. One is that there is talk of opening all of the purebred herdbooks - or at least the Nubian. This is to eliminate prejudges that is against the American animals and to broaden the gene pool. The argument they have for doing this is because they say that there is no such a thing as a purebred - that all goats descended from non-descript animals - so Americans are just as much a purebred. 

The other is that because Frosty Marvin, Conquest, Barnaby Buck is behind almost every Nubian and in the next decade Brown Sugar's Crown Ambassador will be too - then the breed is in danger of imploding. 

The reason that I am asking about AGS is because I am curious to know if they are losing members as some report that ADGA is doing. 
I would like to know if this is because of the economy and people are not owning or registering goats.
Or is this because of the turmoil caused by D-5 members and others like-minded?
Or because of the fear of NAIS -some preceive ADGA as failing to protect the names of their membership and so have quit.
If the Nubian breed is losing ground as being the most popular breed. Is this because of less overall interest in dairy goats. Or is this because of losing Nubian genetics to the Boer or mini breeds. 

Even if I get the answers to my questions - I don't know if it will really tell me anything.


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## Narrow Chance (Oct 29, 2007)

I don 't know all the discussion either... but have heard some rumblings as to opening the herd books for American. I think that it is just a rumbling though.. as far as I can tell.
Doesn't ADGA have to have the members consent to do that? shouldn't there be some type vote? Just curious as to that.. as ADGA has a vote for just about everything.

I have noticed in my area... and that is just who has bought from me and other goat breeders around me.. not just purebred, but Boer, Kiko.. etc.
Most don't care for papers.. they just want a milker for family use or for meat. Most are scared that the government will step in and tell them how many animals they can have.. what they can have and so on.
I do know that there is some state thing going about just that in GA. Saw a Utube about it a few weeks ago.

The stockyards here are now requiring Scrapie tags on goats before one can be unloaded.. and they are not providing them. NAIS has made waves.. and so on and so on. 
I would think that most people are scared of what is going on and do not want the government to take over what is rightfully ours.. weither it be ADGA breeders list.. etc. 
When you talk government.. that scares a lot of people.. and in these times.. people are scared.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

All good questions Tim- please share if you get any statistics. 

Lee


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I know at least one Nubian breeder that has not renewed her ADGA membership this year, she switched to AGS. We are talking over 90 does this lady breeds each year. She sited poor ADGA customer service and raising fees as her reasons. She has never been able to make the member only site work, ADGA has lost lots of her paperwork, and she doesn't use the online genetics tools, so she doesn't see the need for fee increases. No one can deny that AGS is cheaper!

AGS did not used to register Grades or Americans, though I heard a rumor they were thinking about it last year. Did they change?

I don't have a problem with open discussion without hurt feelings, I have a problem with being called an idiot for in nice terms having a different opinion...that is what causes hard feelings. I am seasoning my reply to Raspberry  It amazes me nice everyone on here usually is to each other...too bad it isn't like that in other goat places.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

I asked AGS some of my questions and this is their reply:
Hi Tim, No actually just the opposite, in the past 5 years AGS has seen major growth in membership, and the numbers of goats registered. Many people are starting to register their purebreds with AGS. We have had an increase in all large dairy breed registrations with the exceptions of Saanens they have pretty much stayed the same. Nubians came in second to Nigerians in registrations last year followed by Lamanchas and Toggs. Hope this information helps. Thanks and let me know if you have any other questions.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I have just never been interested in AGS, and not real comfortable with who keeps the records there. I am a die hard ADGA member and will stay with them as long as I stay in dairy goats. Every organization has problems because it is operated by people, and people have problems - being opinionated or being politically motivated. But ADGA is still the best registry afloat!! For myself, I hope that they don't open the Nubian herdbooks, I believe that the plan they have in place has worked and is working. :soap


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

I am with you Janie! I am a die hard member of ADGA too! I think we are the most progressive registry out there. PERIOD! We have some wonderful programs and I am not planning on leaving. I am more concerned about the harm that will happen to ADGA if they open the herd books. The only purebred books will be at AGS if they do this.

There will be no purebreds in ADGA anymore - they will all be Americans. The move to Americanize the ADGA herd books is real and I am opposed to it. I am not opposed to Americans. I am opposed to making all purebreds into Americans.

The problem will be that if they do this - those who simply bury their heads and hopes the problem will go away - will one day wake up and find out that their animals are no longer purebreds but Americans. The only purebreds will be those who are dual registered with AGS. The others will have been dumped into the American herdbooks and there will be no purebreds left at ADGA. 

My concern with accepting Americans into the purebred herd books is not because of the probable mix of the large dairy breeds. And granted those who lost their papers through an unfortunate incident, or the purebred breeding was put in the experimental herd book because of uncertain parentage from two purebred Nubian bucks have a case for opening the books. Technically, they are purebreds.

However, I still have some reservations and concerns about opening the books. My greatest concern is not really the Boer –although Nubians are the breed of choice of the Boer breeders. My bigger concern is the miniatures that are finding their way into the breed. Already there are new clubs with herd books starting mini-breeds of Nubians and other dairy breeds. Some of these are mixed with both the pygmy and the Nigerians. 

My personal experience with American Nubians come from a NOA doe. Heidi was purchased by some friends of mine from a herd of non-descript goats as a kid. Heidi was city-raised and was a pet that jumped with this family’s children on the trampoline. By the time she was two years of age, she was able to jump their four foot chain link fence with perfect ease. Heidi didn’t know she was even a goat. Because of her acrobatic abilities she was given to me with the promise that I would not eat her. 

I had raised reg. Nubians back in the early 70’s but had sold my herd when I got married as I no longer had the money or the place to keep them. Owning goats once again, I joined ADGA again and registered her as a NOA because she “looked” Nubian. I then began a search for a Nubian buck to breed her to. I found the farm that she came from and saw what was supposedly her sire - a large unregistered Nubian looking buck. However, the rest of the animals were pretty much a non-descript hodge-podge of mixed goats. Not wanting to breed her to her sire, I found in the ADGA directory, a man in a nearby county who would let me breed to his reg. purebred buck. The resulting offspring still had Heidi’s swinging udder, her steep rump, barely acceptable breed character and size. I later gave 3 generations of goats who descend from Heidi to my nephew who lived nearby and was able to see them quite often. He continued to breed to purebred bucks and yet by the time that these goats were American – they still were junk. 

Would I want Heidi’s offspring and her American line in the purebred herd books? Absolutely not! They don’t belong there and have nothing to offer to the purebreds. 

At the very least, if there is going to be an opening of the herd books, then there must be rules in place that those American descendants of Heidi’s type be required more generations of breeding to breed out these poor and undesirable traits. In my opinion, nothing less than the 10 cross rule should even be considered even for Americanizing the purebreds. 

Right now, there is a place for Americans. They compete for GCH in the showring right beside the purebreds without discrimination. They can win the National show. They have all of the advantages of the purebreds except for being allowed in the purebred herdbook.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I know that I am sticking my head on the chopping block, but I have never agreed with giving any goat a NOA registration - it's worthless. All you have is a registration paper that is blank, except for the animal's name and a number. There are lots of animals that may "look" like a Nubian, even to an experienced breeder, but there's still a chance that they are crossed with something else. You still have to start at the bottom with kids out of these animals. If you want a registered animal, buy a registered animal, that has a pedigree you can trace. I have my opinions about the Nigerians being registered through ADGA, but now that it's done, it's done.


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## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

"opening the herd books"
Does this mean that they will accept American or PB to be registered as PB NUbian? (Forgive my ignorance, I don't even know what an American is.... I'm a foreigner myself :biggrin)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

When ADGA board members come on breed lists and talk about opening the herdbooks, you know it's not just rumblings like have happened before. Like Tim I have always been all about ADGA, in fact even the mini registries use OUR genetics info to generate their paperwork, as likely does AGS. But there is talk about this convention being about opening the herdbooks across the board in ADGA. On the breed list there was no genetic reason given, even by long time nubain breeders as to why to open it, and it shouldn't be opened unless like in Alpine, the American's are going to add huge genetic improvements to the purebreds. The American Alpine is walking the walk. American nubian breeders in the end it's about marketing, about their bottom line, about personalities...NOT about our nubians. And that is a shame.

When you say this......that I will be dual registering with AGS if ADGA, and honestly it's not even talks more about this, but I will likely be dual registering with AGS because the handwriting is on the wall....it's talked about as 'threatening'. It's just a stated fact, if all ADGA nubians are going to be American, than me and my real purebreds will dual register with AGS. 


Tim wrote: The argument is that there is no such a thing as a purebred - that all goats descended from non-descript animals - so Americans are just as much a purebred." 

I know Tim is just pointing out what is being said...this sentence is just rediculous. It's not as if 10 years ago some goats got off the boat and were said to be purebred nubians...we are talking about the foundation of our nubain breed since the last centuryy!!! For goodness sake! 

Allowing mini breeds to have a stand alone herd book in ADGA should not have anything to do with opening herdbooks in ADGA of the full sized breeds! Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

We haven't been told what structure this change would have and I think that would determine it's palatability to many. There surely will still be some designation of different origin or a generation requirement because I don't think many people are going to stand for being told their PB herd is now an American and all goats are created equal etc.

My problem with all the hoopla is-if it is a good goat-Then it is a good goat and ask what it is worth. 
We sold PB crosses for the same money as PB once they were freshened so I don't know what American owners are whining about when they say automatic lesser price than PB. If they have good goats- price them accordingly and wait for a buyer. A beautifully made milking doe is worth a certain amount even with no registration. 

One problem with doing this will be all of those members that will be alienated which ever way it happens since I have been told that opinion on it is pretty well split down the middle. And it is more ammunition for people who want to see the organization fail while calling themselves representatives of it.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

20 people doing a poll on the internet is not 'split down the middle'. I didn't even bother voting in the poll...what for? V


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Which poll was that? The one I saw had 50 people :lol


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Is it perhaps still open? I know that when asked by someone on this forum, I went and read it and it was right at 50/50 with maybe 10 yes and 12 no. So 50 folks in INBA actually voted? I didn't even think 50 folks in INBA were on the forum  Fishy fishy....Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I just can't believe ADGA would consider doing that!


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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

I cannot speak for other board members, but I can speak for THIS board member. I am not in favor of opening herdbooks just for the sake of doing it. The BREEDERS would need to approach the association before I would even consider it. I am an ADGA only member and damn proud of it! I am not saying ADGA does not have it's share of issues, but I feel it is leaps and bounds above what else is out there.

Ken


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Tim Pruitt said:


> ... My bigger concern is the miniatures that are finding their way into the breed. Already there are new clubs with herd books starting mini-breeds of Nubians and other dairy breeds...


Tim, in your opinion, what's the problem with new clubs starting herd books of the mini breeds?


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> Tim, in your opinion, what's the problem with new clubs starting herd books of the mini breeds?


I have no problem at all with new clubs starting herd books for minis. In fact, if you are going to breed minis - then do it with papers - otherwise, they just become non-descript goats. Tracking their breedings in a herd book gives a record of description of their breeding.

My concern is with them winding up in the standard breed herd books.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, I agree we need to paper these Mini's and nip the problem in the bud. I don't want mini's showing up in the full sized as NOA. 
and if ADGA would offer registration in Mini sized herd books, and maybe eventually pop them into the AOM class "all other mini" That would bring in more revenue. Paper would help to Never to allow any mini blood back into reg American status. Of course make their actual papers a different color too, maybe pink. Since we have blue, and brown, What color are Nigerian papers?
I also did Not vote in the poll.


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

My ND bucks papers are purple. (AGS) His ADGA papers are blue.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

OMG, please not pink!!! :rofl

otherwise, I think it makes really good sense for everyone to have mini's registered so they remain separate from full size purebreds. I know around here, we encourage proper registration. 

At that AI clinic I went to in another state however, there was a woman who brought some does for the practice part, and I was flabbergasted, they looked just like minis but she was insisting she had the full size. Later on, she privately alluded that they "might" have mini in them... I was disappointed in these ethics, what does it solve to pass goats off as something they are not? All is does is mess everything up into a meaningless soup! Label things/goats correctly so everyone has info on what they are really getting. Just my 3 cents...


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

You prefer Yellow perhaps ?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I vote for green! Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well I for a long time was with AGS but am no longer and will not go into the reasons why but personally know all those working in the office. However If I still had nubians then of course if this goes thru, I like Vicki would dual reg Opening this herd book on Nubians is for the birds.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

re: anything but pink, yes I dislike pink personally LOL, but its more that there's a fluff connotation to pink, and I'm getting tired of full size goat folks calling minis "cute" and implying they are not real dairy goats. I want minis to become respected producers, with more milk per pound of goat than their full size counterparts. Its a fine line to walk, to find the sweet spot of a viable breed can be "Productive Pet" for smaller spaces, but that doesn't cross into fluff "cute" -- that's my hope.

Sondra et al, why is it different for Nubians vs other breeds?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

OH I was just commenting as I had Nubians Don't think it should be opened up for any of them


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2010)

I breed Nigerians, I duel register them with both,,, I also don't think the herd books should be opened.. There is already enough questionable practices going on out there and it shouldn't be added to for sure.. Opening those books would cause many many problems..
Barbara


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If the Alpine...or insert the bred here, wants to open the herd book, than through their recognized through ADGA, strong breed association that knows how well the American breed is doing and how much they can add to their purebreds, than go for it. But until American Nubians can show how they are going to add to the genetic base of the Nubians with quality, no.

Honestly I don't see where it is anyone business on the EC or Board to bring this up, other than through their breed association, certainly it should be casual conversation amongst themselves, or a push from a breeder of say, oh, lets just hypothetically say Nigerians?  I don't understand why the talk of herdwide openings of the herdbooks? Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Perhaps an economic factor?
If they are suffering drops in membership and registrations maybe they think this would help.
It certainly makes very little sense otherwise.


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## KingsCoGoatGuy (Dec 20, 2008)

Very interesting thread. Ditto what Vicki said about american Alpines. I'll keep my canadians and couple purebred Alpines, and my PUREBRED Nubians and be happy.


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## Little Moon (Dec 29, 2007)

Before I throw in my 2 cents I want you all to know that this is the first I have heard about any of this - I have had computer problems and I am chiming in from work. I will keep it short. I know I am putting my head on the "chopping block" and will probably get blasted for what I am about to write, but here goes. Please note that I am only speaking of Nubian's.

I will align my position with Tim - Americans can compete side by side with Purebreds. But there is no proof that "American" adds anything to the Nubian goat. Look at your top 20 in every class of Nubian's at the last few National Shows - most of which are Purebred, yes there are a few Americans in there and even an American or two that took their class, but it is the exception, not the rule. Until such time that it is the "rule" I think the herd book should remain closed - as this in and of itself is proof that the "American" Nubian is not an improvement to the breed.

I have pretty limited showing experience, but I do live in an area with very strong Purebred Nubian competition, and the rule is the same - Purebreds do better in the show ring. That being the case, why on earth would we want to open the herdbook and water down these genetics? Purebred Nubian breeders - we have really got something special, lets not loose it.

OK I have said my 2 cents worth so blast away.

Anne


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Anne,
I doubt that anyone is going to "blast" you, since just about everyone who posted feels the same way that you do.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Do you really think our forum isn't fodder for other CLOSED forums Off Topic lists to poke fun at  Do you really think our forum doesn't have our posts copied...and sometimes none to accurately, and forwarded? Do you really think that those running for director, or wanting to be appraisers or judges aren't warned to stay off my open forum  Do you really think all those "guests" all day long aren't reading this  Do you really think putting it into Off Topic here would do any good with gals on here who then forward what we write to others???? That is the reality and Anne is exactly right, folks will align with their mentor even if they do not agree with them, and you don't want to peeve off the big breeders who do want this, because you may want a goat of theirs one day and then they won't sell to you, because they can't seperate personal and politics. Vicki


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Honestly, Vicki, not being a "political" person at all, it never even crossed my mind that people would do that! I thought she was merely referring to being blasted by people on this forum. 

But then, autism runs in my family, so we tend to be very literal, take people at their word, say what we mean and mean what we say, and have no real concept of any of the sorts of things that you mentioned. If someone says to me, "Call me any time if you need something," I used to always think that they actually meant that. Only in the past 5-10 years (and I'm in my mid 40s) have I learned that they don't often mean that, they just think it sounds like a good thing to say. I guess I live a sheltered life...I didn't have too many friends as a kid, especially in high school, so I didn't get much experience with that kind of behavior.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

That's not autism. That is commendable and the way everyone should be!


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Well, it goes with autism, anyway.  Obviously, other, less commendable weirder stuff does, too. But some of it works out well anyhow. (Such as a tendency to obsessive pre-occupations with certain, limited, some might even say, WEIRD, subjects. Goats, anyone?? :biggrin) Other things? More problematic. My older son can't handle certain noises. He is right now ranting about people "chewing gum in his presence." He doesn't like people to sing, either. Though he doesn't mind it on the radio, just in person, and especially in the car. (Too bad for him that big sis and I are in the choir at church! He doesn't seem to mind the singing at church, but if we are singing around home, well, that's another story.) But at least he doesn't bang his head against the wall anymore! Younger son still, at almost 12, will have a meltdown if his routine is changed without warning. But mostly, we're making the most of what we've got.


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## Little Moon (Dec 29, 2007)

That is all we can do - "Make the most of what we've got" - just keep on keepin' on.

Anne


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)




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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Do you really think that those running for director, or wanting to be appraisers or judges aren't warned to stay off my open forum


Hey now... THIS Director LOVES this forum! ;0)

Ken


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And we love you being here Ken 

Stacey I am a very upfront person, I say what I mean and I mean what I say. It simply isn't politically correct to be like that though. Taken out of context my posts can be turned into all sorts of hysterical things...I quit worrying about it a long time ago. You either love me or hate me. I learned a long time ago you can't please everyone, and I am not good at being fake. And really, call me anytime you need me  Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Stacey- here goes thread drift again- rather thread radical turn-
If your son is sound sensitive he may be indicating a lack of B1. 
Perhaps supplement as a single or up his b1 foods and see if he forgets about that as an irritant.
Lee


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, speaking hypothetically, I can't think of any Nubian breeder that I would call big name that I know who wants to open the herd book. I do understand though, that as a director, if you are getting calls from members about opening the herd book, that you have a responsibility to ask everyone's opinion. It is through a director saying, x percent of the Nubian breeders in District Z have contacted me and want the herd book opened at the yealring meeting, or through a petition to ADGA from the INBA (or other breed organization) at the annual meeting that this would be really put on the map. Then it would go to a vote after committee work for a year...or more! So I don't see this as a OMG this fall kind of change, but I see the writing appearing. 

Bottom line is that in a tough financial market, people want sales, and that the noise from AN breeders will get louder, because though they believe their goats are as nice as purebreds, they can't sell that concept well enough. IMO, latching onto the shaky premise of a shrinking gene pool is just the wood for their fire towards achieving the goal- an open herd book. I held two interesting conversations this weekend with a genetics person (for people) and my brain is very full, but I learned enough to know that without some very extensive research, we cannot assume a shrinking gene pool for Nubians, or assume that if a shrinking gene pool DID exist, it would be a bad thing for the breed.

As for this list, I don't dislike or like Vicki or anyone else on here for their opinions- more for attitudes! We are just people, sometimes we are wrong, sometimes we are right, but we should always be respectful of our rights to different opinions. On this list we almost always are, which is why I am here! It is also why I very seldom post on any other list, even though many of my opinions are conservative in the Nubian world.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Even I got in a bit of trouble from something I posted here, copied and posted by a guest to another list, very out of context... implying I was saying something I was not... although I do have a habit of blurting out the truth as I see it at the moment, lol, its not The Truth, and new info gets put into new decisions...

Now I copied and pasted Vicki's "quit worrying about it" to my "quotes" file to remind myself. 

I like that folks on here mostly seem to agree/disagree about an issue, and then move on to agree/disagree separately on another issue... doesn't seem like a lot of personal baggage, I like that. The personal stuff here seems to be encouraging and humorous.

Back to topic, now Ken as Director, and with both ND's and LM's... when are MM's coming to your herd :biggrin and where will you register them? :rofl


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh NO Lacia, we will hope Ken misses this  He is not a fan of mixed breeds  And yes Lacia we have lots of old 'guest' posts that come with LOTS of baggage  Vicki


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