# CMPK & sluggish labor



## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I have a fat doe, 5yo, that has not been getting free choice alfalfa pellets for very long, only the past couple weeks, cuz she's been such a piglet fatso. Yes, that's a management issue <g> and I'd make different decisions next time.

So I'm a little concerned about enough calcium.

She's always kidded on day 147, that's today, ligs gone over 24 hrs already, but she's not showing signs of getting with the program. Uddered up but not tight like she's been in previous kiddings.

Those of you who have given CMPK for sluggish labors, is there a pattern to how quickly you see effects?

I realize that's a bit of a ridiculous question, because its impossible to tell if she's at 49% of calcium needed and needs only a teeny boost, or 30% of calcium needed and its going to take more, so its going to vary a lot.

I'd just like to hear some of your experiences, when, why, what results and timing you've seen from using CMPK for actual or suspected slow labors.

If in doubt, there's not much downside to using the Rx CMPK injectable since its balanced, correct?


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Maybe I should delete this post... 15 views and no one has any thing to share? 

I just talked to vet and he says up to 100ml for her size (100 lbs pre-breeding), is fine. Obviously not all in one place, etc.


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## doodles (Nov 1, 2007)

*cmpk*

I give 30 cc am and pm sub q. I also give 4 ounces cmpk oral drench am and pm with Caltrate chewable with magnesium about 10 a day.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Have you done a pelvic to see if she is dilated? I have also heard that if you warm up the CMPK, it stings less. Hope things move along for your doe!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Lacia~
It IS kidding season ya know?
Heh....there is no assistance to be gained until you know there is a lack. 
Just cuz she is fat does not mean she does not mobilize calcium correctly.

You don't have sluggish labor until you have labor...and labor that is not producing results. And honestly the kids are doing the chemical cues for labor...not the diet of the doe. These cues start a 5 to 7 days before parturition. 

Have you done a pelvic? 
Good luck and do post an update!
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Same as Lee. Add that it isn't the alfalfa pellets that make a doe fat or not, and when she tries to pull calcium from her bones and blood to make the colostrum, to add bone to the load of kids she has in just 50 days....you will see does down in their pasterns, no milk, not wanting to eat, sub temp and then sluggish labor. Same with grain, a fat doe can't be on a diet those last 50 days, she needs the energy, carbs and fat. Now the dry period when they are not bred or not 100 days bred, yep Jenny Craig it is!

I subq my CMPK or calcium gluconate, I don't want to be putting anything oral into a doe who is already dealing with a sluggish rumen and metabolism. Vicki


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## hurvinek2010 (May 29, 2010)

Sorry, don't have enough experience to be any help, I hope, she is going to deliver soon without a problem.
I just want to say, that I will let my pregnant does be as fat as they want to, I had a fat one, took a long time for her to get back to shape, the following year I was "smarter" and cut back on her rations, she got big anyway, delivered quads, all big kids, and 5weeks later suddenly died. Her blood work from about 12hrs before she died was close to normal, incl calcium. (Just her glucose was high from me pouring glycol into her)
I am still trying to figure it out, I am still scared, it's been 3 years and for the first time since then, I am going to hopefully have kids on the farm. 
So, just in case I need it, CMPK is calcium, magnesium, potassium, and what's the K, or is the K potassium, and P phosphorus? Any one knows the ratio? I don't want to inject it if not necessary, and I was told that supplements mixed with molasses taste better.
Sorry, this is more like for the rainbow bridge, I thought I was over it, but expecting kids brings back memories. Olga


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> I subq my CMPK or calcium gluconate, I don't want to be putting anything oral into a doe who is already dealing with a sluggish rumen and metabolism. Vicki


I lost two does to milk fever a couple years ago. Understanding the importance of what Vicki is saying here is key. Not only does orally mess with the rumen, but there is (IMO) NO way that it is going to work as well or as fast as subq.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Olga-CMPK, is Calcium Magnesium Phosphorus Potassium (K is the periodic symbol for potassium-and potassium deficiency being hypokalemia). If you look in the section Goat Keeping 101, look for the Sue Reith article on hypocalcemia, there is a recipe for the CMPK-type solution, but if you have an emergency situation with hypocalcemia, injected CMPK is going to be your best bet for pulling the doe through it.


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## hurvinek2010 (May 29, 2010)

fmg said:


> if you have an emergency situation with hypocalcemia, injected CMPK is going to be your best bet for pulling the doe through it.


 Thanks, I'll make sure I have injectable CMPK ready before her due date


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

(Just her glucose was high from me pouring glycol into her)


The glycol caused liver failure and or kidney failure.
Do not use. Use a balanced mineral orally and use CMPK sub q if needed.
NO glycol!!!!


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## hurvinek2010 (May 29, 2010)

That's a shock, Hoeggers sells Propylene glycol as a prevention and a treatment for toxemia, that's what I thought she had when she didn't want to eat all day. I didn't give her more then the recommended dose. I know, this was a little too late for a milk fever, but she didn't eat, and was feeding four kids! I didn't know about CMPK then, found out about it too late. I am so glad for this forum. Thank you.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Don't feel bad. My VET gave me the stuff for a doe a few years ago. She had a barber pole worms and got badly anemic, and quit eating. He gave me that stuff. She seemed a bit better then tanked. She was a few weeks away from kidding. The vet had mentioned it would be in her best interest to abort, but he didn't suggest lute. I didn't know to ask. Of course it was my favorite. Awful experience. The closest I ever came to giving up.  Got the parasite thing under control and haven't had any trouble since. *knock on wood*. Good luck with your babies.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Hoeggers  They are marketing products for you to buy. We are trying to help you raise goats on prevention so you never have to order this kind of stuff or have to use it.

Put some of the PG into your mouth, than wonder why she won't eat again once you start her on the PG, it burns her throat and mouth, it sets up acidosis in her rumen. PG for toxemia and ketosis (which in the end are the end result of untreated hypocalcemia, read Sue Rieths articles on this now in goatkeeping 101) and no amount of oral PG is going to save the doe. Her blood pressure raises, the kids die, she crashes metabolically, and even if you save her by aborting the kids, she doesn't milk, it takes her a week or more to gain her strength from the lack of calcium, the diminished capacity of her rumen, the lack of magnesium, potassium everything that had her crashing in the first place. If you do save her, she is a walking skeleton of herself. And she will repeat these steps every single year she kids if you do not fix the core problem, the calcium in your management that has to come from some form of legume hay or dried legume hay. Or fix the reason she is not absorbing the alfalfa you are feeding (too much protein, too little copper etc.). The more kids she carries the more she is capable of milking the worse this becomes. Why most dairies can not keep their best milkers alive for very long when they feed on the cheap.

Make sure with her feeding 4 kids that she is getting as much alfalfa as she will eat, it's a huge toll on her calcium reserves that are already low from making an udder full of colostrum and milk, and growing out bone on 4 kids in only about 50 days. And think about pulling two kids to bottles once they are emptying the udder, as you check the udder twice a day and empty it also. When there is no more milk for you to milk out, it's time to think about pulling two of the kids you are not going to keep, bottle them and sell them. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

wow, I'd given up watching the thread, and then I got a email with a whole thread of replies, so Thank you all!

Lee is back here too, woo hoo!!!!

And Vicki, you're still here, hurray!

Nancy, thanks for the reminder about warming the CMPK... you know how many times I've reminded folks of that, and then in the heat of moment, I forget it... ugh.

She happily lapped up 300ml of oral CMPK between 11am-4pm, mixed with about 100 ml apple juice, and she was eating alfalfa until about 7pm. Last I checked around 9:30pm, she hadn't touched it since, going to check again now 10:30pm. Reasonable folks in other times zones have gone to bed I realize :biggrin

I'll study the rest of it again, going back out to check on her, take temp, give more (warmed LOL) CMPK as she's stopped eating the past couple hours.


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## punchiepal (Aug 4, 2010)

About PG - Have always told everyone at home, never give PG. Even if vet says it and I am not here. No PG.
Now a little story - hubby bought some of those concentrated drink things (ie Mio and others). DD got a drop on her hand so she licked it off. Tasted horrible. She looked at the ingredients and discovered PG! Said that was enough of an "experiment" and that she would never let any of the goats have it. Oh, and he hasn't purchased anymore of the drink things. LOL


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

She's eating when I went out around 10:30pm, temp was 101 which is ok. I went ahead and gave her a 35cc CMPK sq and 1cc BoSe. Around midnight after I finished other chores, she was stretching and pawing her straw some. So maybe she's just taking her time, and I'm having regression to worry wort since she's off her normal pattern.

Her other kiddings have been textbook, but she was in great shape vs fatso now. She'd lose ligs, 18-20 hrs later start bit of goop, kids on the ground couple hrs later, w/in 24 hrs of loosing ligs

Vicki was right that she got fat while dry last summer, but she has gotten fatter while preg.

Lee, I know she wasn't in labor to be technically sluggish, but I couldn't come up with better words for delay of labor starting after loosing ligs. Its also possible that they were soft, not totally gone and its hard to tell when she's fat, but the whole tail head loose bit wasn't happening yet.

Anyway, I'm too tired and in pain to make all the sense in the world. Need to nap and check on her.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

There can be a problem with fat does receiving hormonal signals.

http://kinne.net/u-inert.htm


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

so 6am check here was no progress, hadn't eaten anything over night, not eating now, doesn't want to do anything but lay around. Its raining so my options for getting her up and walking are limited. Giving more CMPK, other thoughts?


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I didn't read if you have done a pelvic on her?


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I haven't done pelvic, probably need to at this point. I'm home alone, in horrible pain from pleurisy (feels like broken rib) and just haven't figured out the logistics if she lets her rear end fall off the milkstand when I'm starting to check her. I can rig something up, just all sounds so painful for both of us... she's a Mini-mancha, not one of those big Nubians <g> so its uncomfortable for her to go in and check her.

Its only day 148, so on one hand part of me says "just chill out" and on the other hand ligs have been gone for day and half plus but they are hard to feel accurately with the fat so I doubt myself too... She's always kidded like clockwork w/in about 20 hrs of ligs gone, and on day 147 before and nothing this time is the same, including her overconditioned state. I'm compromised in pain, so I'm just doubting everything.


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## punchiepal (Aug 4, 2010)

We have a couple of does who loosen up to the point where it is hard to feel them. They seem to get so lacks that they will push down but still actually be there. The only way I can feel them is if instead of pushing down to find them I just kinda move my thumb/index fingers back and forth, only slightly pushing down.


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## hurvinek2010 (May 29, 2010)

Thank you Angie, and Vicki. No more PG for my goats. I wish I knew then what I know now, she was a great loving goat, a good mother and I hated losing her. I hope to do better for my girl this time. She is due in two weeks


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Yes, to "no on PG" here...
The vet I most like, even he says one dose to get over a hump or get the underlying problem solved, 2 doses max. But he says my "smoothies" are better to drench them with, just many folks are sane and have lives beyond goats and aren't going to make smoothies when when there's something more convenient. <g>

So my doe... still no kids... Other fat doe (this one's daughter is on strict exercise program plus free choice alfalfa for her last month to go... lesson learned, this is stressful!)

Occasional stretching and looking at her side. Didn't eat for 14 hrs, then I resorted to smoothies, and an hour later she would eat only banana slices and corn chips out of all the offerings tried. More smoothies and she started eating bit of alfalfa and calf manna and nibbling on hay.

She does not want to walk, doesn't seem to be uncomfortable with it, just doesn't want to.

Ligs were loose enough for me to examine her pretty easily, its much easier than when doing AI for example. And she was totally cooperative, sometimes I worry over things that exist only in my head LOL.

Cervix had pencil size opening, and no real change 6-7 hrs later. Vet says time to use lute, that fat does can just get the hormonal cascade messed up like someone else posted. He also says that it works in more like 20-24 hrs than the 36 hrs that is commonly said here. What sense do you make out of that?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

How many goats has he birthed? We milked 36 year round so you can imagine how many we birthed 3 times a year to keep that many in milk....all lutelysed, and I would bet 99% at 36 hours, because I was a mom of 3 very active kids who showed as many weekends out of the year they could.

In the end you choose who to learn basic management from. We need our vets, for drugs and emergencies when we are over our heads, but day to day stuff, kidding season? Na. They mostly know puppies. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

That's why it doesn't make sense cuz he does a lot of dairy goats, more dairy cows, and no puppies <g>. He gets the PG spiral etc. Of course I know that you do what works and have a solid basis for your numbers, so that's why I'm like "what the heck" here...

usually when there's been a difference, there's some fine print, like maybe the fact that her ligs are softened already but when you induce nothing has started yet? And I'm betting none of your goats are overconditioned like this one <g> What number of days do you usually induce at?


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Much asking and research later... seems the difference might be in the fine print as I thought.

First, Vet had me give Dex and wait a bit, and in very short time, she was lively and cheerful, eating like she was starving, talking and being her normal curious self. Likely she was lethargic and not eating from discomfort. She is pregnant huge, besides fat, so who knows what's going on in there, we'll find out soon enough I guess! <g>

On the heart of the confusion about timing...
As Lee said, the kidding hormonal cascade starts way ahead, up to 4-8 days depending what you count as transitional. So when inducing for your schedule, likely you are earlier in that process, than when the process has started but is at abnormally slow pace like this.

As extreme example, in one of the other threads, a doe kidded something like 12 or 16 hrs after lute... she was already well underway when lute was given, it probably didn't have much effect, maybe sped things up a few hours. On the other extreme, inducing for a set day, say 147 if does typically kid 150-152 as I see Nubians reported, the odds are that inducing pushed up the process from a farther point out, so you get max & most predictable 36-40 hrs kiddings, cuz you're starting colder and getting the full effect which is very predictable as Vicki has been saying.

In this case, with ligs already soft, she started that process, so cut some hours off the "cold" induce timing. For "arrested/slow pre-labor" induction, then its more like 20-28 hrs. When you induce from that "head start" then you get an earlier than 36hrs kidding. Its cuz she'd already started more than was obvious and its next to impossible to tell where she & the kids are hormonally, so there will be much wider range of times.

For the vast majority of regular, induce on specific gestational count day, you'll get the 36 hrs as Vicki & others who routinely induce do. Their small fraction that isn't 36hrs, and those folks who get earlier times, are cuz they are pushing a process that's already slowly starting. At some point, pushing is like pushing a moving car, the benefit of speeding things up is minimal to nil, like the 12-16 hr example.

Make sense then how both could be correct, and why "normally" its 36 hrs?

Any bets now on how many hours here in this case? <g>
Do I need to offer Seattle's awesome Theo Chocolate mailed to the winner? :biggrin
Ok bets are open, go for it....


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

36 hours is my bet  Your vet can send me a dozen donuts. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

My understanding is if _Luteolysis_ has already begun the additional hormones do nothing so you are on the timing of the doe anyway.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Vicki, we'll see <g> Its not really fair that all you have to go on is my story, vs I'm seeing and feeling here, and know her. This vet's been right so many times, and so have you, that I'll choose a balance with what I'm seeing, I'm betting in the 24-28hr range vs his 20-24hrs and if you say 36, we'll call that 34-38 so we all have the same 4 hr range?

Lee, you're right, I don't think it had fully started with her, but we'll see. The question is apparently that's not a black and white thing, when its getting started, its a process. I found a lot of info within a range on this... but think of it as a car at a standstill, manual transmission that you are trying to push start.

It might start rolling a bit on its own when a big truck or wind goes by, but the first twig it hits will stop it. A person starts pushing it, can't go fast enough to get the car to start, its moving for a bit, but the mass of the car wins and it slows down and stops again as soon as the person stops pushing. That's like the hormonal pushes from the kids, with a fat doe or other reason, maybe a dead kid in the past its been, or that extremely dymature kid a few years ago, when there's been this stop and start thing. If the one person is pushing, not enough to get it to start, but its moving, its a whole heck of a lot easier and faster to get it up to starting speed if a 2nd person starts pushing.

At some point, the speed of pushing overtakes the mass of the car and it really starts rolling with its own inertia, and up to speed where the car starts, that's like when luteolysis kicks in for real.

Only hindsight timing or blood tests tells where she really was in that process.

Knowing her, I think it was like one person pushing and resting trying to get the car to the down slope or get help to really kick in. Her laying around in the rainy weather, not eating, doesn't help any, like not realizing there's a branch under the tire that you're dragging along as you're trying to push. The Dex is like removing the branch, making it easier, so would be getting her to walk a bunch but I'm in too much pain myself. The lute is like getting a push from a big football team joining the little person pushing, up to speed and car (luteolysis) starts pronto! Slightly faster depending how fast the first person already had it moving.

She's eating now like there's no tomorrow, and talking and being her most extroverted Self.

So we'll see, what's your bet Lee? <g>


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

My prediction from my magic crystal ball is 19 hours and 23 minutes.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

alrighty, you're on! LOL


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Not a gambler Lacia. And I am DONE thinking about kidding.
Last doe handed me trips last night with nary a heavy breath.

Done!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

woo hoo for Lee, all done in style now! Funny that y'all are finishing down there when we are starting up here.

Coming up on 23 hrs here and no major action yet, just a lot of talking from her, some walking and stretching. I felt the kids moving around last night.

She seems more reluctant to move this morning, how long does the Dex happy effect last?


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

goo at 26-ish hrs... usually that has meant kids within the hour with her but who knows this time...


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Fingers crossed everything goes off without a hitch.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Lacia there is an extra fee to make us read the blow by blow 

Yup- so pleased to be done. Would have been done in January if a couple had not needed more conditioning.
I thought I would ease things up and kid in March last year. Mid 80's and a horrific experience. 
Flies everywhere and kids not hungry etc. FLIES. I don't do flies!
So...flipped back to serious dead of winter kidding for clean cold air with no insects and hungry hungry kids. Our January kids are nearing 40 pounds  LOVE winter kidding even with frozen fingers. Once April gets here I will never remember how cold I was crawling out of bed and trekking to the barn in the low 20's. 

Come on....twin does with no complications.
I think you are micromanaging again 
After all...it's just a goat right?
Lee


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Your avatar is so cute, Lee! How many kids did you have this year?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks Nancy-toooooo many lol....how many do you want ? 
21 kids from 3 new bucks! WHAT was I thinking!


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

We had some problems last season with milk fever/hypocalcemia and lost one doe, and several were affected more than once. I was feeding alfalfa pellets at the time and really couldn't figure out what the problem was. I was going over my feed program and how it has changed over the years and I am firmly convinced that the issues I was seeing were brought about by our grain which was very, very high in molasses. It just didn't dawn on me at the time, but now, because of expenses I am feeding straight barley and have been for months now, and we have not had one problem at all. Not one.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

So Lacia who gets the chocolates ?


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Congrats on the kids, Lee. Noooo Nubians for me, thanks!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

So I didn't want to give too many updates, but here's the status. She finally kidded at 47 hours post lute. Crazy, slow, weak labor. Temp was just over 101 but I gave her more CMPK anyway as she'd had BoSe and Ca was the only other thing I could think of making labor so slow since she wasn't really uddered up like she's been in previous kiddings either.

Placenta dragged out for all day too, totally not normal for her, she's always been DONE in 2 hrs per my previous good notes. I finally gave her some Oxytocin and she got it done with. It was a super long day and I'd been up most of the previous 3 nights checking on her.

She had some carb energy as banana, raisins, and organic, not the Costco ones LOL, corn tortilla chips was all she'd eat. Not my preferred diet, but at that point, she needs energy. No ketosis on test strips.

She's 5yo, has always kidded like clockwork and fast, and been a very enthusiastic eater, so this is all just way out of normal. She's never had any interest in the placenta and avoided it until I got it out in the past. This time I went in the house for something and she was determinedly eating the last one when I came out.

Kids are triplet doelings! Whoo hoo, she did a great job there! 2 normal twin sized 5.1 and 4.8 lbs and doing ok after getting the 4.8 lb on breathing, she had a lot of gunk. Third one was 4.1 lbs which is usually a fine size but she was a little weak. Only today 24hrs old is she really nursing decently, its been a struggle to get enough into her, she take only a couple sips from bottle and quit. I did get full 1oz/lb of colostrum into her within 2 hrs, and another before 12 hrs, but it wasn't fun. The other two are champs, normal great kids on bottle and teat.

She's a 9+ lb milker in the past, usually so tight by kidding that I'm worried about her, but this time she's barely feeding them, their bellies are soft not empy but, not round full, and she has no extra when I try to milk her out.

She's eating grass hay, barely nibbling grain, but refusing alfalfa pellets which is what she needs to be eating. Gave her more CMPK with temp hovering on either side of 101 and udder not filling. Previous kiddings kids can't keep up with milk at all, I've milked out a lot in my old notes. Nothing is normal this time.

So I guess Vicki wins as the longest prediction, although this was way out of her predicted range too and something more is off. I'll PM you Vicki for your choice of chocolate, donuts etc. <g>

I'm glad for the doelings of course, everyone's doing ok after too much work and too little sleep, but dam is not doing great.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks for the update~was hoping it was not an awful kidding. 
Hang in there. Get her weight down during this lactation if you can.
To go that long after lute I would think she is totally hormonally disturbed.
Did you milk her while bred? She sounds like one that will need that long lactation time to stay in shape.
NO MORE goodies n snacks. 
Congrats on the doelings. 
Awesome that!
Take a nap now 
Lee


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Congratulations on triplet doelings! That is great.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Lee, she was dry over the mid-spring thru summer, that's how she got fat, so no she wasn't milked while bred. 

I had too many FF last year that I needed to see what I was dealing with, so I'd milked her thru instead of breeding her, until I had too much milk from FF and that big train wreck with my BJDIS that ate up tons of time. 

I'd AI'd this doe in spring, intending for fall kids, but I knew I'd probably missed the window and I had, then was just too busy to catch more subtle spring/summer heats and had my hands full. Plus, I'd always considered her "not a show doe" but I brought her (dry) to one show to fill in sanction for someone who'd gotten sick at the last minute. The judges' feedback about her helped me to see her in a different light and not obsess on her one big flaw, that she doesn't seem to pass on anyway. All three judges commented from what they saw of her, they'd love to see her in milk, and she is a great producer. 

So when she didn't settle from too late AI, and all I had going on, I decided to just wait until fall. I like her to kid 1st in the year as this is the doe that won't wean her kids but will take fosters, so its nice to have her ready and available. It all seemed sensible at the time LOL.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Wonderful on the triplet doelings. Some of our dairy girls simply can not be allowed to not be milking, bred and milking. A dry period of less than 50 days at 110 days pregnant is fine. But you get them fat, they are hard to get bred and harder to get kidded out. Once in labor with a softened cervix and pushing, and slow sluggish labor even with CMPK injected it's occytocin time, you were lucky she cleaned or got her uterus toned back down before she prolapsed. 5 isn't old, but out of shape and 5 is ancient. The fat in her liver is what will eventually kill her. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I think you're right Vicki. Sounds right on what I observed. Her fat, but not as fat, daughter due at the end of the month or early next, is now on a walking program!

Hopefully this lesson is driven home to me without disaster, just a lot of my time and stress.

Its ironic cuz I lecture others about not letting their goats get fat LOL. But when there's a lot going on, competing pressures, its easy to say "next week I'll make another pen when I have more time" and when you see them many times per day, you don't notice how much is really being gained. I think when I hear that self talk, "oh its not that bad" its a wakeup call to me to compare to herd mates for a reality check.

I thought I'd learned this lesson early on, my 75% ND gets fat on air, back in 2010 her FF, 2 of 3 triplet doelings were dead, the tiny survivor was pretty toxic. Pulled her thru, and next freshening I was a hawk with that doe, on strict walking program and keeping tabs on her. 2nd F she had healthy quads, and not as much body reserves and actually started getting a bit thin and had to get a little grain. So its an iterative process to find the sweet spot.

So this doe is eating a bit better today, only about 25% of what I'd like to see her eating this morning, but that's better than the mere nibbling she was doing. She is eating her grass hay well, still preferring banana over grain for carbs/energy, seems up and in better spirits today. 

Past lactations, she's milked her body weight down significantly, so hopefully we'll get back on the "in shape" track with her.

So would you keep up some CMPK until this doe is pigging out on alfalfa and her milk volume is really up where it should be?


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Congrats on the doelings! I hope the dam perks up quickly for you. I think it is so true that it takes first hand experience and practice to find that "sweet spot" where condition is concerned.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's doubtful she will milk what she is supposed to, you can tell her calcium reserves by her temp. But do make sure to take the temp of another doe, I was just helping another doe today, but it's really chilly here once the sun goes down, it wasn't a subtemp at all! Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Temp is ok, but that's with 60cc CMPK daily, but if CMPK was enough to correct temp, then it should be helping milk too, right?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No. She is hormonally imbalanced now, the cascade of hormones that bring on normal labor and delivery also bring on milk. Fat stores estrogen, which doesn't make milk either. Her metabolism is sluggish as likely is her rumen if you gave her a lot of oral meds (and since oral meds is in vogue right now, I doubt you bucked that trend of flooding the rumen with the kitchen sink  So, yes CMPK will balance out the metabolic crisis she was in prior to delivery and will keep milk fever at bay which has nothing to do with the amount a doe is milking or a fever..........a crisis of her calcium, magnesium etc...but it will not help her milk.

It's why we had to go out on our own and stop the whole Ketosis diagnosis vets gave us back in the 80's and early 90's. Pregnancy metobolic disease doesn't just kill the doe, it kills her lactation. Ad is 100% preventable with management.


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## Blackbird (Jan 11, 2013)

"liking" your post Vicki. The ketosis diagnosis.. Yup. The PG. Yup and yup. We've dealt with vets like that, who are still like that. Doesn't end well.

I hope your doe makes a full recovery LLb102!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Congrats, Lacia!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Ok, thanks all. Still not good here.

Vicki, I did buck the trend, most of the CMPK has been SQ, no PG etc :biggrin

I searched and read for hours on here the other night before I posted to ask... every post I found about fatty liver faded out and got dropped at the point of what to do NOW. 

You're right, management and prevention are the best. Sometimes we fail, and need to do all we can in the moment.

So, treating fat does struggling in early lactation and possible fatty liver... what CAN be done now?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Honestly nothing, the damage has been done. Keep milking her, but you also can't starve her now, but do challenge feed her, she only needs enough calories for the amount she is milking, not what you want her to milk. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Does she know what she needs to eat for her level of milking? She's not eating enough imho... but as long as her temp is ok and she's not into hypocalcaemia, is she eating right for where she is?

She eats plenty of grass hay, 14% protein good stuff. She'll eat about a half cup of oats and a quarter cup of Calf Manna before she quits. She'll eat a lot of bananas and raisins if I let her. <g> She'll only eat about 1/4 lb of alfalfa pellets. Haven't tried beet pulp last couple days after she continuously refused it which is unusual. Usually ailing goats will eat that when they won't eat other stuff. She'll eat some, not a lot, green browse, like bamboo and conifer, ivy etc.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Run a fecal maybe you have a parasite issue going on. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

nope, did fecals, multiple times and testers, me and vets.

does she know how much is right for her to eat based on how she feels, or I need to be monitoring and forcing some food into her?


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Update... so I've learned a ton about liver function this week LOL. I'll spare you, hopefully you'll never need it. But every thread I found on here ended the same way... fading out with what to actually do in the situation of known or likely fatty liver, fat does kidding and just not thriving...

So briefly.... I'm very grateful to have a good vet who understands loads of PG is not the answer. We talked about exactly how PG is metabolized and why its use gets recommended and how it can go haywire pretty quickly, as gets talked about on here a lot. So I didn't use any, instead I upped the complex carbs in my smoothies some, added some Calf Manna to the smoothies, gave her lots of B Complex, lots of liver support herbs especially Milk Thistle which has some decent science for liver, plus some other tradtional use ones that may or may not actually help. A couple days of Banamine helped, we came close to using Dex since it stimulated her appetite so much before kidding, but we didn't use it since it suppresses the immune system and she was having no lochia and cleaning herself out. Plus eating more than her liver could handle wasn't going to help her, its a fine line between eating enough of the right stuff to keep her out of the back feedback cycle, but not overload a struggling liver.

So few days of all that and she was consistently but very slowing eating a little more. Finally, she turned the corner, started almost all at once, drinking water like there was no tommorrow, eating normally and spewing lochia, we'd gotten her out of the bad feedback cycle of fatty liver. The past 4 days now, her milk's gone from 7oz beyond what the kids were eating (almost nothing), to 17 oz then 29oz and this morning over 50oz. She's been a gallon milker since her FF, which is pretty good for a smaller minimancha like her, and at 12 days fresh now, it looks like she's getting back on track.

Certainly I'm not saying this would work for everyone, its very hard to say exactly how bad a given doe is, even liver function blood test isn't for sure. But in this case, Banamine, complex carb & Calf Manna smoothies, B Complex injections, and quite a bit of Milk Thistle, and some exercise... and she seems to be on full road to recover now. I wanted her off the Calf Manna as soon as possible since I haven't found an organic version, and I'm not crazy about the GMO soy etc in it. So we quickly transitioned over to the organic pea & quinoa protein boost, which she's now doing great on. If she's stable and doing great for a bit, I'll challenge feed and fade the extra protein back down.

I do think that her system being pretty clean to start with, over fat, but not loaded with a lot of toxins since I don't use routine chemicals on them, and I feed organic and a lot of fresh organic browse, couldn't have hurt and might have given her just that bit of advantage to have less to recover from. I am a bit intrigued that at her worst, she would eat organic corn chips, but the not the GMO ones... go figure... I know it sounds a little crazy!

Thanks to those who sent me private messages and emails of support. I really appreciate you!

And I'm grateful to know there are some good vets out there, who do know quite a bit about goats, who want to learn from breeders too, and who are willing to discuss and try things and integrate contradictory science.

The daughter of this doe who is also a bit over weight, but not much, and not due for another month-ish, has been on an exercise program since I got this wake up call.

I'm grateful to those who helped and encouraged me privately, thrilled she's doing better... and just in time for another one due any day! <smile>


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Glad she is doing better, Lacia! I have a question- when you have a doe like this who goes off her feed, it's critical to get them eating but that often means we're tempting them with foods (like the corn chips, peas, etc) that they wouldn't necessarily be used to eating. How do we know that's not throwing what may already be a compromised rumen further out of whack? I'll have my fingers crossed everything goes smoothly with her daughter!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

That's a good point Nicki.

She was still eating hay, so that's a big buffer for the rumen, but not enough to suppport milk coming in with liver out of whack.

Also I feed a lot of diversity all the time. So while she might suddenly get more corn chips, they are used to suddenly getting different things, corn chips are not unheard of treat here <g> and peas are a regular rotation in their menu, its just changing the ratios, which can still be too much for some if they aren't used to it.

I got 2 does from different farms this year, and gosh they just had a hard time adjusting to our feeding diversity here vs the goats that are raised here with it. So I'm not sure what to say for folks that feed hay and alfalfa pellets. My experience has been that its harder to get them to adjust, and easier to upset their rumens, than if they are used to getting diversity.

But a little rumen upset will give you a warning pretty fast if you don't totally overdo it. A clumpy poop or if diarhea starts might be an indication that the change went too far too fast. In this case, I was putting probios and baking soda in her smoothie drench too. I do give some probios and/or kefir if I'm drastically changing something or feel they need a little transitional support. It probably doesn't do a lot but does seem to buffer some. Speaking of buffer, baking soda with changes can help too.

If you're weighing a little rumen upset against some critical metabolic issue, I'd go for the rumen upset and back off if needed or steal a cud or something. Just me personally, not based on hard science, but it seems like many cases, a bit of rumen upset, not drastic, but risking a bit, is the lesser of the evils.

She wasn't eating a ton of any one of those things either, just enough to get some carbs into her. I was using the ketosis test strips to monitor if I was keeping her energy balance up just enough, so the very first, lightest color on the test strip only, or she needs more. As long as I'm getting that lightest color, or no color, I know she's getting just enough.

Like I said, its extremely hard to give wording for all situations like this. Every doe is going to be at a slightly different place metabolically and its hard to assess exactly where they are, especially if you have a real life outside of monitoring them. You can only do so much some times and there's some luck in timing and situation.


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## hurvinek2010 (May 29, 2010)

Hi Lacia,

I have been following the progress of your girl, and I am so happy she is doing better thanks to your care and her will. I like that you give lots of different things to eat to your goats, Could you tell us what's in the smoothie you make for them?

Best wishes, Olga


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Sorry i didn't see Olga's question before.

It depends what the issue is, and what else they ARE eating. The real goal is to get them feeling well enough to eat!

I only resort to smoothies if the ketosis strips show anything more than the first, palest color. Then the goal is to get enough calories & nutrition in them just to stop any further loss, WHILE the underlying problem is being treated. That's most important, to fix whatever is causing the problem, ketosis is a symptom only. 

So I don't mean to be vague, but truly, "it depends" but the basic idea is getting enough into them to tide them over. 

So in one case, it was post surgery, she wasn't eating enough calories cuz she was in pain, sore and miserable. Treating the underlying problem meant Banamine which can cause stomach problems with out enough fiber in there. She got protein, fibers plural including pectins to soothe the stomach, and simple and complex carbs... so it was apple fiber from juicing, citrus white pulp, peas, sweet potato/carrot, and some high nutrient greens like kale/spinach/kelp, some electrolytes and vitamin/mineral mix, some baking soda.

In another case, it was a septicaemia that didn't have a very good prognosis from the vet, so treating the underlying cause was Naxcel, and the supportive smoothie nutrition was every known immunity and liver supportive herbs, and basic balanced easy to digest nutrition, so a little calf manna, beet pulp, just enough sweet to make it so they didn't fight it, and kelp/yeast/minerals. I think I used pasta and bean cooking water cooled and reduced, as well as some cultured whey as the liquid base. If I was more talented, I would have added stolen cud, but I fail at that, so its probios and kefir.

In this fatty liver case with related possible hypocalcaemia, its an inbetween mix of the above. She needed complex carbs, liver support, calcium, Vit D & E. She was still eating some hay, really high quality grass, so only needed minor protein boost. Liquid base was oral CMPK w/ just enough apple juice or molasses to not fight over taking it. Then it was alfalfa pellets soaked in milk, and I don't remember all the details now, but whatever complex carbs I had like banana with the peel (cut into half inch slices or the fibers can mess up your blender), veggies & peels, my edamame pods, Vit D to help her use the calcium since I'm in far N and it was miserable gray weather, yeast and more B vits, liver support herbs, all the dandelion greens I could find. 

This is just an example of what I used, your circumstances and mileage may vary as they say. There's debate about the time/benefit of this.

Does that more or less answer your question?


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