# Advice needed immediately



## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

FF 2 yrs old, fine yesterday is off her feed this morning with a temp of 101.5. Hard tummy, can't feel or hear much happening in the way of ruminating. Standing against the wall slightly hunched and staring into space. Slightly goopy eyes. Eyelids are her normal mid pink color. Last fecal was in July, everything looked good. Wormed with Cydectin in early Sept to prepare for breeding. Just got her bred last week. 

Does this sound like HC? Weather has been weird here. Really wet, then sunny with very cold night temps. 

I'm going out to give her Probios and B shot. Can someone tell me what else I should do here?

Thanks


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2009)

Get a fecal done, to find out what you are dealing with...
Bo-Se and vitamin B... BoSe to boost immune system... vitamin B helps rumen... Take temps in other does in herd to see if it is approximately the same as the rest of the group.. 
Is she pooping and peeing ok...?
Barb


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

Forgot to mention that she is not pooping. She stretches and strains a bit but no pooping. And she gave almost no milk this morning.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe try rubbing the rumen area and walk her some then listen for movement. The rumen should 'cycle' regularly. Don't let her just stand there- keep some circulation in her legs and the gut needs physical movement to work as well. You should feel it roll around muscularly after rubbing and walking. Any odd foods new to the diet? 

If the belly is still hard you can help with a good bit of Milk of Magnesia- this will neutralize any excess acid and give a magnesium boost which will loosen things up if she is shut down. How long since you have seen her drink? 

One other slight possibility- she may be reacting to being bred. Implantation is anytime in the first week- maybe she has morning sickness....hoping for an easy fix. Some does want to rebreed in this time frame even tho bred and others act rather odd in other ways. 
Lee


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

Her rumen is not doing anything. No cud chewing, no tummy noises, no pooping. Won't drink or eat. I will give her milk of magnesia and get her walking. I'll also do a BoSe shot.


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

I tried walking her and she would not go anywhere. Let her back into the barn and offered her some warm water and hay. Won't touch it. Now she is lying down and refuses to do anything. This is so unlike her, she is usually the pushiest, hogging the food and getting into everyone else's business.

I am at a loss for what else to do here. I'd love to take in a fecal for testing, but I can't get any poop out of her. My vet is clueless (she's a horse vet and there aren't any goat vets in the area) so can't get any help there.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I would oil her up like she is bloated. No pooping you have something impacted. If she is not milking she is also likely dehydrated. If she is valuable to you get her to the vet...at the very least tube her with a quart of oil at least, and start her on banamine every 12 hours to calm the gut so she will pass this, and yes it will cause diarrhea which in this case is a good thing. Subq fluids.

You can't just fecal once in July and not the rest of the summer, late spring and summer is h.controus time, it's when most goats die of worm burdens. Always fecal and find out what is going on, a vet can pull fecal material out of the goat to fecal if you can not.

A truly non functioning rumen is already a dead goat, if you take her to the vet take another healthy doe so you can transplant cud. Vicki


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

We're headed to the vet now.


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

**Update* Advice needed immediately *

Well we just got back from the vet, and I'd love some opinions if anyone has any.

The vet tubed her and gave her a dose of Ruminex, gave her 3 liters of fluids, did a blood panel which came back looking normal and did a fecal which also came back looking good. She also gave her a dose of Banamine. The vet said that when they tubed her if smelled really foul but other than that she couldn't find any indication of what went wrong.

She has now passed one stool which was a mucousy blob, she is eating some hay and I just saw her chewing cud so she is certainly starting to feel better and although I'm thrilled about that I'm not sure how to prevent further problems when I don't really know what happened in the first place.

Can anyone think of what I might be overlooking?


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

Just went out to check on her and she was huddled in corner shaking. Temp is up to 103.1. I've moved her into a warmer spot and covered her. Can't get a hold of the vet who saw her and of course the vet on call has no idea what to think-doesn't see goats. 

Should I give her the oil now? The vet didn't think it was an obstruction but I don't see what else it could be. I don't want to make anything worse but I think what the vet did just band aided the situation. :help


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

If the vet tubed her with the oil then I wouldn't give it again. ofer her some warm molasses water or warm water with koolaid or gator aid or even jello See if she will drink. keep her warm no drafts did you give her banamine?


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

What the vet gave was Rumitech, which I thought was basically enzymes to get her rumen going again. She won't take water or fluids in any form. Her temp is up to 104.4. I gave a dose of LA 200 and as soon as I can clear up what Rumitech actually is I'll decide whether or not to give her oil. She had banamine at the vet at about 1:00pm. They wouldn't give me any more for her. When I called the vet back she agreed to give me only one more dose. I can't figure out what the heck is wrong with the vets here! You'd think I was asking for crack...

Anyway, any one know what Rumitech actually is?


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## danielsumner (Jul 21, 2009)

Beverly, could you have the drug spelled wrong. The closest thing I can find in is Ruminant Lactobacillus Gel. I think that maybe what she was given. It provides lactic producing bacteria.
here a link about it:
http://www.drugs.com/vet/ruminant-lactobacillus-gel.html

Daniel


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

First off, this message is from Bev's husband - she said you'd be nice if said that.

Through a bit of detective work, I've determined that the vet delivered Ruma-Tech - a drench blend for cattle. I found one magazine article and a web site that references it, but that's it. It appears to be a calcium-muckety-muck mix.

About 10 minutes ago, we fed her 60cc's of a anti-bloat soy oil based fluid. Her breath smelled of diarrhea and prior to this she's had some very foul gas. We're waiting to see if the oil has an effect (I personally think we need a stronger dose). Beverly would like to know at what point you folks would cut your losses, so to speak, and put the animal down.

-Pierce


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## danielsumner (Jul 21, 2009)

I've been researching also, the other thing I found was Rumen-Eze which is a emulsion containing vegetable oil, emulsifiers and preservatives. 

Rumen-Eze Indications
RUMEN-EZE is intended for use as an aid in the treatment of frothy bloat in cattle and sheep.

Glad you found it. Hope everything works out.

Daniel


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's the same as Bloat guard, thera bloat or Bloat release, concentrated. You want to get this doe pooping. When you fill the rumen with oil or use something like bloat release and banamine, you can then walk the doe...you want to promote diarrhea and the gas she is producing you want her to expel it. With there rumen smelling so bad, its' actually at least meaning you have it moving. Adding baking soda to sweeten it will help. She needs subq fluids if she is not drinking, perhaps you could get some, use the same set up the vet gave at the office, just do it subq rather than IV. IF you can get her moving, get her rumen working, get her pooping, then you can work on building back her rumen flora, b vitamins, bo-se, lots of good hay...then she will have a chance.

Most impaction is caused by too much grain, or too much of anything new. Posion usually gives you a doe who slings her cud all over the barn then is down like your doe. 

From rumen acidosis, rumen impaction, twisted gut/intestine, foriegn object like plastic bag, posioning.....You may never find out what happened. Vicki


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

We can't get her to move. She's grinding her teeth, grunting and drooling. Obviously in a lot of pain. 
She has only had her normal feed-nothing has changed. :down


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Did the vet give her antitoxin for enterotoxemia?

You really have to get her up and moving.

Give her more banamine first to take the edge off, but make her get up. Massage her rumen while the banamine takes effect.

Rat poision around? Foundation plants she can reach? Plasic bags or tarps up she has eaten? More grain than normal getting ready for a show? New hay? Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I never give up this soon keep up the work your doing. If she were here she would be getting lactated ringers, for fluids banamine for pain and the la200. alsi mor of the bloat meds if I thought they were needed. How is she this morning?


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I would be throwing baking soda into her mouth if she isn't taking any. I would be lifting her to her up, rubbing her belly to irrate her and move that rumen. She may be in pain but it has to be done. Tam


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

> We can't get her to move. She's grinding her teeth, grunting and drooling. Obviously in a lot of pain.
> She has only had her normal feed-nothing has changed


As Vicki suggested, get her up and moving. Also massage her stomach as well. It appears from what you have described that there is something going on with her rumen. For cases of bloat one needs to walk them until they, "blow" or poop. Once they are down it's a battle to get them up again and being up is critical to any ruminating animal. Have you tried a baking soda drench yet? She needs fluids so try Sondra's suggestion with the lactated ringers. I'd also start with an antibiotic as Sondra mentioned for any infection which will or may set in.

Did the vet X-Ray her stomach? That would help give more insight as to what is going on, such as Vicki mentioned, eating a foreign object. The drooling sounds like she may have eaten something poisnious. Any deadly nightshade within reach or plants, even Jimsen weed?

Hope she is better this morning.


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## danielsumner (Jul 21, 2009)

Bev, any updates, anything we can do?

Daniel


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your ideas and support. We had her put down during the night. She just wouldn't fight. We tried everything available to us and could not get any movement in her rumen. The vet checked her again for rumen contractions when we brought her in and there was nothing happening. We just kept throwing more and more stuff at her and she became less and less responsive. So I did what I felt was most humane. She died peacefully, in my lap. 

I've been mulling over everything that has happened in the last week and I'm trying to come to some conclusion. She didn't have access to anything nasty or unusual. I did open up a bail of alfalfa that was drier and denser than the previous bales. I'm wondering if she wasn't drinking enough water and got stopped up, although it couldn't have been for long because I spend time with them every day and watch stools. 

This was my problem goat, whose gut was never great. When I first got her (before I found this forum) I had a bear of a time with coccidia and was definitely over graining her with molasses covered grain before I was schooled otherwise by you all. But her poops were never quite right. 

I also think enterotoxemia, as you suggested Vicki was a possibility. The vet I took her to brushed it off as a possibility because she didn't have a fever when I took her in, and once her fever spiked it was after hours and the vet on call was totally clueless and completely unhelpful. 

All in all, a terrible learning experience. I'm going to do a lot more reading and adding to my arsenal of first aid products. But mostly I think my problem is being unsure of myself and not being more assertive with the vet and more fearless with treatments.


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## danielsumner (Jul 21, 2009)

Bev, the greatest gift we can give to a animal in our care is to have the courage to let them go peacefully. It's hard, but you did good.

Our thoughts are with you.

Daniel


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Very sorry Bev.  Tam


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

The fact that she had cocci damage meant she could not cope with things as well as a doe with a living intact gut.
Be sure you start cocci prevention with your new babies in spring. This helps with immunity so much.
Even in the best of circumstances she would be your problem goat. Sorry you had to deal with this- Don't let it put you off of goats. You will do better with animals you have raised in your space under your regime than animals you have brought in with unknown background. The key thing is don't wait and watch- Jump in at the first sign of distress. Once a goat shows obvious symptoms something has been wrong for awhile and if you watch closely and keep a flipbook to check for symptoms in the barn you will be able to diagnose in time to do better with other problems. The best results are from early intervention. Read as much as you can about how a ruminant digestion works and you will be amazed that there are any of them alive at all under our care!
Hope you can learn from this and not get discouraged.

Remember too you cannot let them decide if they want to be doctored. Force it. They will fight you and not cooperate but you MUST insist. You MUST make them do the things you know will work. They will lay down and die if you let them tell you no. 
Best luck with the rest of them. Hope you have lots of littles to look forward to. 
Take advantage of all the archives here. Then you won't be feeling guilty about poor suffering _learner_ goats like I still do 20 years later.
Lee


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## jcran (Feb 17, 2009)

I am so sorry to hear of your loss; the best advice I ever got (thanks Vicki) was to have cd antitoxin on hand. When my daughter's beloved 5 month old nubian got a severe case of acidosis about 10 days ago, I tried baking soda and kaolin-pectin for almost 24 hours before going to the antitoxin. THAT is what helped her turn the corner and improve. She was soooooooo sick (grain overdose-she's hooked on it like heroin) and I gave her 5 cc cd antitoxin ORALLY, three times that day. By the next morning, she was up and moving again. I am sorry also, that your vet was not too much help. Hang in there!


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Bev: I am so sorry to hear that you had to make the hard decision and had to put her down. {{HUGS}}


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

I did have the cdt antitoxin on hand! Is that what is given for entero? If that is the case, I feel really stupid because I didn't know that. I thought it was for tetanus... :down Oh man, I feel like such an idiot...

Thanks for your kind thoughts. I'm not going to give up on goats. I love the idea of a flip book for symptoms. I simply did not have the presence of mind to put together all the information I needed in the moment. It didn't help that I am very ill with a massive sinus infection right now...


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

It's just CD antitoxin, no T. In the vaccine (aka toxoid), it's CD&T with the "T" for tetanus, but the antitoxin is just for entero. You might check your bottle, as based on what you are saying, I can't be certain what you actually have. The antitoxins are what you would need once the animal is actually sick, and the entero antitoxin and the tetanus antitoxin come separately, even though the vaccines come together.


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

Thank you for the clarification. What I have is just the vaccine. Is the antitoxin rx or can I get it over the counter?


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

OTC. You can get it from places like valleyvet.com or jeffers.com if you can't find it at your feed store. It's kinda pricey, but obviously worth having around, because when you need it, you need it right away, and your vet might not carry it.


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

I just found it on Jeffers. And read about entero in 101. The whole thing is so stupid and obvious now. She got stopped up and then the entero set in. The vet thought she had fixed her because the banamine temporarily relieved her pain and inflammation. 

I read about entero in one of my books but it said there was no effective cure and that was that. And because the vet didn't think that was it or even mention an antitoxin and the on call vet didn't even know what I was talking about and I didn't really understand what it was I didn't get the meds for her. 

Ugh, this whole awful situation didn't even have to be. :sniffle


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Well, unfortunately, even if you had had the antitoxin on hand, there is no guaranteeing that you'd have gotten a blockage cleared, if that was what caused this. Don't kick yourself, you did what you could. It's too bad we so often have to learn stuff the hard way.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry that you lost her. Don't lose heart! Most vets don't carry the anti-toxin, and suck at diagnosing entero. You'll know next time...


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Hugs to you Bev! Trainwrecks, are unfortunately, the best education. Some people have them and never learn. Learn from it, and you and your goats will forever be the better for it!


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

Thanks everyone. I've got a local goat gal I just met coming out tomorrow to show me how to draw blood and we're giving everyone else a CDT. She also told me I can call her anytime in the future for help. I wish I'd met her a week earlier, but what can you do. I've ordered the antitoxin from Jeffers and a few other odds and ends that I hadn't had the money to purchase before. So this will never happen again if I have anything to say about it.


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