# swollen knee



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

My buckling that was born on 4/23 has a swollen front knee today. It feels like all his other joints, but it's maybe twice as big (maybe not that big) and he's keeping his weight off it. Of course, he enjoys being held and babied, but seems to be getting around okay on his own, but keeping some distance between himself and the other kids.

Yesterday, I noticed the older kids (a little less than 3 weeks older) were really headbutting and playing hard. This little guy looks much like the weaker of the older 2 bucklings, so I'm guessing/imagining he got taken off guard and messed with by the oldest/largest buckling and that it's an injury of some sort?

What do you do in cases like this? Leave it be and let it heal on its own? I have yet to test for CAE... would this possibly be a symptom? (He's dam raised) Thanks.


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## dvm-mommy (Feb 5, 2009)

CAE I thought manifested more in older goats as the arthritis/swollen joint thing..

what is temp? Is joint warm/hot?
Could be septic joint (joint ill)....trauma could be likely too if he sprained/strained it)...worst case scenario is a fracture through a gowth plate or something...would be rare, but does happen.

Would have evaluated by vet to R/O above things....wouldn't just leave it alone. If not able to see vet, and if feverish and joint is warmer than rest of body start him on some injectable antibiotics...Naxcel and penicillin is where I would start. And Bo-Se/Vit E capsule to boost immunity. Also Banamine injectable...probably no more than .1 cc. 

But vet consult in person is best bet.

picture of swelling would be helpful!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Okay... joint is not hot and temp is normal. Will give my vet a call and see what she thinks...


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I think he just got hurt run some cold water over the joint to help with the swelling /give him a tad of banamine and just watch.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Vet said to just watch, make sure he can nurse, and if he gets down to call, but it's probably an injury (and I noticed a carpenter bee in the barn... maybe a sting?) and if it hasn't improved by Monday that he may need to come in for an X-ray to insure he didn't fracture it... So far, he seems to be doing well besides the swelling and running about on 3 legs.


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## Painted Pony (Apr 12, 2009)

Is the swelling all around the joint or just located in the front? If he injured it and ruptured the capsule he needs steroids within 24-36 hours if you ever want the capsule to stay down. In large animals w/ capsule tear there is a very small window to treat it. My vet adds a broad spectrum antibiotic to the injection for safety. If fluid out of joint is blood it's traumatic, but you can always have it cultured/tested.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The CAE virus has defiently evolved from the virus I dealt with in the late 80's and early 90's, but back then you didn't see swollen knees, or a swollen knee until about yearling age. It was so common to shave up a doe to show her following year only to see the classic big knees, no knee pads of CAE...and likely mycoplasma.

You need of course to test your herd for CAE so you know, it would be worth it to sell a kid to have the money to do it, there is no real way of improveing upon your stock unless you improve your whole herd health first. Vicki


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I know I need to test. (sigh). I can't draw blood myself and have planned on having the vet do them and get the whole biosecurity screen from WSU and also the G6S from TVMDL while I'm at it (one less farm visit and only one blood draw charge) but the cost to me is going to be in the $500 range for all that and DH just hasn't been able to fit it in the budget yet. When she's here, I want her to work with me and show me how to do it, so I can do my annual CAE blood draws myself. I've seen it done once in person and looked at plenty of photos, but could really use some hands-on teaching. Maybe I need to ask him to sell more stock (not the animal kind) but it's hard to do with the market so down!

Oh, and the swelling looks to be all around... He's really being a trooper with it, but has already gotten spoiled by all my holding and cuddling!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Another possible source of injury in this guy... his mama doesn't take to him as well as to his sister, I think b/c he looks so much like his cousin and she's confused. So he's taken to stealing milk wherever he can get it! His aunt has 3 babies on her and she's so used to getting hit up for milk, half the time she doesn't check. So, sometimes he's successful getting milk out of either doe, and sometimes he gets the snot knocked out of him--by either doe. If I weren't ready to pop myself, I'd work more with him and his mom, but since he's growing and I'm in survival mode (you might not think I'm surviving if you saw the condition of my carpet, though. DH said he'd vacuum for me today!) I've just let it be. I'm seriously seeing the advantages to pulling babies and feeding them the bottle... maybe next year!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Billie, every 4H kid I every had was taught to pull blood, it is simple. It does not take a vet. There are really good instructions in 101 done by a child. IF you tried it one time, you would be able to do it. Then just test all your older does first for CAE, no need to test anything young that got raw milk if your older does test positive. Use biotracking.com test a few more in a few months...G6S and the rest is fluff unless you are really going to do something about it, save it for next year. CAE will hurt sales right now, hurt your reputation if you sold anything that then converts, the rest is just stuff you need to know or want to know. Vicki


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

Pulling blood is easy! This comes from a person AFRAID of needles. I watched Katie (astronut, LeeAnne's daughter) do some of mine, studied the pics in 101 with the little girl doing it. I bought a new doe and felt like a pest so I decided I would see if I could shave a small area on the neck, find the jugular, get a needle in, and pull blood out. I got it first try! I was so excited I posted on here about it! Lol


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I looked at the photo of the kid doing it, but can't feel the jugular on my does, so have scheduled for the vet to do a couple of my does. I'm not afraid of needles (I give shots all the time). I just don't want to be poking aroind in a goat's neck, trying to find the vein. The vets always make it look so easy. If I do try shaving one, what blade do you use? Kathie


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

I just used a small pet clipper that I got cheap. I couldn't find the vein either, until Katie did mine. I put my hand against her neck about in the middle between her chest and head. I press my hand tightly into her neck and within a few seconds there was a vein.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I hadn't planned on selling anything this year. I am keeping the two doelings, wethering one buckling for a pet for my son, and the other two bucks were going to go in the freezer. I have someone that wants them now, and had just planned on bartering with her for a massage (she's a massage therapist) and her goats are unregistered and untested, so she was fine with that. But, I suppose it isn't really very responsible of me to let goats leave here w/o testing, so maybe I'll pick up some supplies when I'm out getting another bazillion bags of wood shavings and give it a try... I'm really a wimp, you know! I have seen an actual blood pull, and every time my vet sedates a goat for disbudding, I see her pull blood to insure she's in the jugular before giving the meds, so I suppose I've seen it quite a bit recently... Maybe I can do this...


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## catdance62 (Mar 2, 2009)

My DH did it after only watching the vet once. We shaved the area and wet it down to see the vein. DH got it in one stick!


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## deJardine (Apr 29, 2009)

I just paid my vet to do the draws for our CAE tests and I am sort of hitting myself in the head thinking "I TOTALLY could have done that!" lol. Maybe next time! I hope your baby feels better soon.


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Honestly it would be pretty hard to hurt the goat by "poking around" even if you don't hit the vein on the first try. When I think about how much redirecting, resticking, etc. we had to do on fat dogs and old cats at the clinic....the worst they ever got was a bruise. As long as you are clean and not rough, it doesn't hurt the goat to be poked more than once. And if you clip the neck and wet down with alcohol....if you are holding off right you really can't miss. With as many goats as you have...it wouldn't be that expensive to just send off CAE and CL tests on the adult does. That way...if something were to come back positive you can make a better educated decision on what to do with the kids you are planning to keep.


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

Just a newbie curious question here but, since I test and where I bought my goats from tests and she bought everything from me as babies shouldn't we be able to rule out that the seollen knee is from CAE? I know she needs to test herself in the future but just in regards to the odds of this being CAE?


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Paula, that's part of the reason I've not been super proactive about testing. I know it's a retrovirus and can crop up, but really do think it's an injury--particularly given the herd dynamics I have going on (mama not so certain about him, looks like his cousin, steals milk, probably the lowest baby on the totem pole...). I do need to test for my own records and for sales and whatnot, though. Just felt like I had a bit more time to get with that program. This morning, he was hanging out w/the other kids, but while they were all cuddled up (even his sister was cuddled w/the other kids) he was a few feet away. I need to go spend some more time with him today, and suspect a vet visit will be in order tomorrow. :/


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry but I don't agree. I don't care who you buy from if the kids or milker didn't come with a CAE negative test you physically have in your hands, than the goats aren't negative. And you test your herd for yourself. And you continue testing your herd yearly, then when you are milking your own does you delivered, you raised on heat treated colostrum and pasteurised milk you heat treated and pasturised yourself, then you can move to not testing or dam raising. Nobody knows someone elses herd, their real management, we know what we are told, it is not worth your reputation to not test, being proactive is the only way to manage goats if you are breeding goats and selling to others. Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Hey VICKI even tests goats she got from me as I hadn't test last year they all were negative thank the good lord Now with my does I got from Vicki they had their papers all in order along with the neg test sheets. The does I am selling this week all go with their registration papers and the neg test sheets. done within the last 6mo. This is just something everyone needs to do get the sheet or do the tests regardless of who it is. 
On the blood draw I can not do it by myself someone has to help and even then I sometime stick two or three times makes me mad cause I have to use a new needle ea time but HEY I get it done. For along time made Theresa do it and I held the goat. Then one day she said I wasn't holding the goat right she would hold and I would stick  Think she was just making me do it.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Pathfinder from Tim will be tested when I get time next month.

Nic is tested from Sara, GE is tested and from Lynn, my girls from Saada were tested even though they came to Ric and Lisa via testing. I don't care who I buy from, I continue testing. Troy tested every single doe he got from customers of mine who were reselling my stock, even though they were tested when I originally sold them and the does he purchased from me...it only makes sense.

Does who I resell are not sold unless they test negative here first, most on blood initially then on colostrum at kidding, actually the only class of livestock that doesn't count on my contract with my guarantee of blood testing health in their new home is goats purchased for resale. 

Anymore, purchasing goats from those who won't or don't test is just a rediculous notion. Vicki


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Well, I DO plan to test. I just thought I had more time to get my ducks in a row (finances in order), since I hadn't planned on selling yet. I really would have liked to do it a long long time ago, but didn't think I could do it myself and it's something I ask my husband about each month when we're going over the budget. There's only so much I can nag! I told my husband that we really need to have test results on file before we let anyone outside our family drink the milk, just to be safe. Well, we have does in milk, and folks asking to buy goat shares when we've weaned babies, and it's still not in the budget... I won't let these boys go w/o getting the test done, though. It's on my calendar to call the labs tomorrow after my Dr. appt. (If I can do it myself, by golly, then I'm going to see if I can do all the tests I want!) 

You know what they say about necessity being the mother of invention... Guess this is the kick in the rear end I need to just go figure it out and do it myself. (Either that, or covertly rack up a credit card bill that will get me in deep you-know-what!)

Question: if the dam is negative, do I need to test the sire? Can CAE be given to dam or kids via the sperm? (was looking on Biotracking's site, and saw CAE results for bucks, so it made me wonder.)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No, nobody is going to catch CAE from your bucks. Test your does who are supplying the milk you are heat treating and pasturising or who birthed the kids especially if you weren't there to deliver them and immediatly take them from mom.

I would do CAE first, then worry about anything like TB or brucilosis, they are a non issue in goats anyway. Vicki


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Even if someone gave me papers from testing done the week before I still test...the stress of the move might precipitate something becoming clinical.


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