# Some questions from a first time owner.



## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

Hello All! 

I just bought two dairy goats in milk--- a four(ish) yr. old Saanen and a 3yr old La Mancha. I have never owned goats before, so this is a new experience. 
The La Mancha has a runny nose--is that a concern? (No cough or heavy breathing)
The Saanen is CONSTANTY bawling! I keep the two together all the time! As soon as one of my little sibling go out and sit with her she stops! I have had her for over two weeks, so it isn't a lonely issue (is it?)
Also, their shed. I have put straw down, and every morning I go in and there is poop all through the straw. I can't afford to clean out the straw everyday, but I have been reading, and you have to keep their shed dry. Is there a better idea of what to do?
At night I put them in their shed, and during the day I picket them. (I live on two acres with mostly woods) Should I give them hay at night? 


When I milk them how much feed should I give them? Right now I give them two cups and the Saanen (Granny) eats it all (and more if I allowed it), but the La Mancha (Lady) leaves a handful.
I asked my co-op for DAIRY goat feed, but they gave me showtec feed! I didn't know (until now) that is was the wrong feed, so now I am about to change them to home-made ration of: Corn, oats, alfalfa pellets, baking soda, and mineral. IS THIS TOO DRY???
I plan on getting them bred (as soon as they are in heat) (Granny to Saanen and Lady to an Alpine). Should I continue feeding them two cups of rations (even after they go dry) all through their pregnancy and after? If not, what would you recommend?
Thank you for taking your time with a "probie" 
Thanks in advance! 
The mother.
Note: The goats give about 5.5 cups a DAY (Milking morning and evening)
p.s. I weighed them both using a sewing measuring tape and the chart from Sue Weaver's book "Raising backyard Goats"--- Saanen weighed 135 and La Mancha weighed 84.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

It would be very helpful to us here if you put your location in your signature line because that makes a huge difference when talking about rations and general goat care. 
So...if your Saanen is still bawling, it may be her personality. Some goats are loud. I have a LM that bawls very loudly if she gets separate from her friends or if it starts to rain. :/
Eighty-four lbs seems awful small for your Lamancha. even my smallest first freshening girls are around 115-120lbs.
Welcome to the forum!


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Hi and welcome! Please edit your profile information to include your goat breed (I know that you mentioned it in this post, but you probably won't want to have to in every post you make, and this is helpful information) and location. Thanks!

Runny nose is interesting. Did she have it before she came to your place? Is it clear? Have you taken a temperature?

Were these goats together before you got them, or are they new to each other? Your Saanen could very well be lonely if she was used to other arrangements before she came to you. Picketing can be very tricky. Goats are apt to get themselves tangled and it can be dangerous. Do you have other options, such as a fenced area for them to be in? Poop does not necessarily mean wet bedding, as the berries themselves should be dry. Generally, when they rest, they are in one spot and will deposit a pile right behind them as they lay there. It should be relatively easy to get at least the main piles and only take a few moments. Urine, however, will make wet spots that should be cleared out. The food you are talking about will not be too dry, but I would not have baking soda mixed in. You can offer it separately in a feeder, if you want. Or have it on hand if you need it but not feed it all the time. Definitely continue with the alfalfa plus grass hay (and yes, I would have some available to them at night) throughout pregnancy. Whether you need to continue with grain the entire time kind of depends. Most people will cut way back when they are drying off and then gradually increase again towards the end of the pregnancy, but that LaMancha sounds very small to me. Is she very skinny, or just tiny?


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

LOL, Michelle. Great minds and all that.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Both goats sound small 135lbs for a 4yr old saanen? How much milk are they producing? 5.5 cups sounds like very little grain to me if I have to guess cups my goats get about that each milking. Can you post pics? That would give a better idea if they are just small or underweight. I agree with not mixing baking soda in the feed. I dont mix alfalfa pellets in my feed, I feed it separately. After I milk my girls get about 2 lbs each of alfalfa. I also have alfalfa/grass mix round bales out 24 hrs a day, my hay is 2nd cutting 80% alfalfa.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Also I would never picket a goat, a friend of mine did it after I suggested not to and her doe got tangled up and strangled herself.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

You might want to buy a weight tape from Caprine Supply. Those weights seem awfully low for the ages and breeds of your goats. My doelings weigh 80-90# when I breed them and over 100# when they kid as yearlings. I would not add the baking soda to their milking ration. I free feed it in a small plastic feeder attached to the wall of their house and their goat mineral along side that.
For bedding in the summer, I use pine shavings. They don't seem to get as wet and smelly as straw. I use straw when it is really cold out or when the does are kidding to provide insulation and warmth. I also don't tie my goats out. If I did, they would probably be noisy as well as vulnerable to dogs and coyotes.


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## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

doublebowgoats----- 
Thank you.
hsmomof4- 
I didn't notice the runny nose until after she was here for a few days. It is clear. I have not checked the tempature.
No, I got the goats from two different places.
The lady I bought her from said she is a La Mancha, but my sister and I am thinking she looks more like a mini LM.
tendermeadowsnigerians- They produce 4 cups (average) in the morning and 1-2 cups at night each. I give them two cups EACH twice a day.
For all:
I live on two acres, I am a teenager, and had to quit my job because the boss was not paying me. I don't have a-lot of funds, so I am trying to get some money in before I keep expanding fencing etc.
I am homeschooled and I have 7 siblings, so there is always an eye on the goat that is on a picket. When we do school we watch the goats from our schoolroom window. Once we leave the house they go in the shed with some grass we pick for them.
Lady's previous owner said he make rations, and the recipe he uses has baking soda in them. I used 2.5 lbs of baking soda to 425-450 pounds of feed. Both the goats are skinny, but they both had twins, and they were just weaned off two months ago.
I just weighed them again using this chart: http://creeksidegoats.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/weight.gif
Lady- 32 (LM) 101 lbs (Black, brown, and white)
Granny- 37 (Saanen) 150 lbs (white)
Would y'all recomend Round Bales or Square Bales? I have a friend who I have know for 10 years that has beef cows. I am planning to buy 5 round bales from him to last the winter. 
How soon can I wean them off their old rations unto their new rations? Should I mix it half and half and then 3/4 and 1 3/4 and keep on using less of the old stuff for three days until I get it 2 cups again?
Thanks!! 
The Mom
Northwest AR


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Welcome to the forum. Please add your real name to your signature line. We like talking to real people. 

Glad you posted pics as this tells us a whole lot more about your goats. You'll have your work cut out for you, as they are on the thin side. Do you need the milk? If it were me, I would dry them up and get some weight on them. They are not milking that much anyway so that should be easy. Drying them off and continuing their feed ration should help to put some weight on them before breeding season this fall. They really need to gain some before you breed them. 

I agree with others on the feed....no baking soda in the feed ration, nor alfalfa pellets. I'd continue to feed the grain ration twice per day and if you can add some sort of fat to it (BOSS, oil, rice bran pellets) that will help. Make sure they have access to all the hay they will eat 24/7 and buy the best hay you can afford (I realize money is tight) and supplement with alfalfa pellets separately (not in the grain ration). You do not mention having any minerals out for them; I'd provide loose minerals, as well. And if you can afford it, I would be some BoSe from the vet and give them each a shot (1cc/40 lbs) and look up on here how to copper bolus. Looks like they could both use selenium and copper.

Good luck to you. Keep us posted.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Round bales are often stored outside...not a problem for cattle, but goats cannot handle moldy hay AT ALL. Some people use round bales and peel off and throw away any moldy portions. If you can get square bales and have a place to store them, you will have a lot less waste and fewer concerns about the health of your goats. They are also a lot easier to handle without equipment. Yes, you can transition them gradually, mixing what you are currently feeding them with their new ration, and it shouldn't be an issue. 

Agree with Cindy on drying them off and getting some weight on them. And that they could use selenium and copper. Look up copper bolusing here on the forum. Good info on that.


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## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

Hello!
(forgot to say this) I do have loose minerals in their shed. 
I do really need the milk, but I know they need to gain weight too. I have already made the rations so it is too late to change anything. Lady's previous owner has used this ration on his 15+ dairy goats for years, so I don't see a problem with using the baking soda and Alfalfa pellets.
Every night when I put them in their shed (or when we go out) my siblings ( who like picking "salad" for the goats) and I go out and pick Johnson Grass, Hot clover, bermuda....etc and stick it in their shed. Is hay really needed? (until winter time). Hay is dried grass.
What type of selenium? The only kind I found was for horses, and it had Vit. E. Is that what to get? How should I give them Selenium? Like loose mineral? (You can tell i'm a newbie! =D )
I think I will look into getting a few squares bales each week/month.
Rachel Kenneth


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I wouldn't feed round bales to just 2 goats. I have 15 so round bales dont last long. I also put the bales on a pallet and cover with a tarp so if it rains there is minimal wetness. I also change bales often, I have horses so when the bales do get wet they go out to the horses and they are gone in a day.


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## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

How many square bales do you think I would need for two pregnant milk goats from November until March?

Rachel


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I don't necessarily have a big problem with incorporating the alfalfa pellets in there. Lots of people like to feed them separately to make sure that what they want to get eaten, gets eaten. They don't need baking soda 24/7. It is salty and can reduce their need for salt, which means that they'll be less inclined to eat their minerals. And, to be completely blunt, Lady is an approximately 100 pound, 3 year old, full-sized dairy goat. She should probably weigh 50% more than she does. At least. I have Kinder type (nubian-pygmy cross, therefore naturally smaller) goats her age who weigh more. Which means that I am not putting a lot of stock in the management of the herd that she came from. 

The average square bale is about 10 flakes. You are going to want to feed a flake or two, morning and evening, at a minimum. More if it is very cold (again, please go to your profile information and edit your signature to reflect where you live). So you are probably going to go through two about square bales a week. They must be stored someplace dry and out of the weather. If you put them directly onto the ground (even inside a shelter of some sort) the bottom bales will get moldy and then you cannot feed them. Heck, we have pallets on the ground under our hay (which is stored in a barn) and the bottom layer still gets moldy (so we just leave that bottom layer there as a buffer). You will need to take all of that into account when deciding how much to get at a time.

The best selenium to get is going to be BoSe, which is with vitamin E, but it is a prescription medication that you have to get from a veterinarian and is given by injection, subcutaneously. There are oral gels (in a tube, like you see horse wormer) that you can get if you can't get the BoSe, which are ok if that is all that you can get. And speaking of wormer, when was the last time that your goats were wormed, and with what?


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## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

Hello,

Thank you for getting back to me! =D

Another thing with Lady-- The previous owner cut off her horns 3 weeks ago, which made her eat less, and therefore lose weight. I watched the owner give them the same rations I am using. All his goats had clean places to sleep, and there was a-lot if fresh grass. All his goats looked extremely well fed (very healthy and fat) except two nursing mothers (who were thin) and Lady. Which is understandable when they are nursing. Lady just went through a hard time getting her horns cut, and her babies weaned. She is eating anything she can get her mouth on now!
(I probably would not have cut off her horns) 

It won't kill them to eat mineral and baking soda in that much rations though, right?

How often should I give copper and selenium?

Granny's owner dewormed her when I bought her. (I watched him). Lady's owner said she was dewormed three weeks ago. 
Sunday a week ago I dewormed them both (just to be double sure as their eyelids looked pale) with Hoegger's natural dewormer: http://hoeggerfarmyard.com/xcart/GOLDEN-BLEND-RUMATEL-GOAT-DEWORMER.html

How would you recommend milking them after they have babies?
I was thinking, after they are born I will let them stay with their mother all day and night for a week, and then I will let them go with their mom all day, and then separate them at night. (Give the baby(ies) hay and feed during the night) Milk the mommy in the morning and then let them out together (In fencing I will buy) all day. Is a week old too early? What is a good age to sell the babies? (I know the boys have to be separated at 2 months)
I will go edit my information =D Still getting used to this great forum!

Thank you! 
~Rachel


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

I use barn kept round bales, do not get the ones stored outside. Also turn them on end or they will eat the middle out and can entrap themselves. I wrap a cattle panel around my round rolls and before I got a truck bed topper that fits over it well I used a hoop house made out of a cattle panel, 2 t post and a tarp. You can make some nifty square bale feeders out of scrap pallets, images can be seen via google. 
They will need time to become friends your Saanen will miss hers for a while. You can make a small pen out of 4 cattle panels and just provide feed and hay then rake or sweep berries out daily, 
I personally dont use straw its a pain to clean up, stinks and is often moldy itself I just use fine pine shavings and let them compost as they go adding fresh monthly cleaning out 2xs a year. this is for 9 does. 
My dry does I have to be careful with because they will get too fat off all stock you can find some all stock with 6% fat if its more affordable to get them in condition with it go for it. Im one of the folks that will be not so much of a fan of corn but thats through personal preferences.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Just a thought, if she started loosing weight and I think shes the one with the snott it can be that when they cut her horns off she has a sinus infection and thats causing her not to eat comfortably, and or the stress of that then the move caused a worm/coccidia bloom


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## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

Cannon_farms,

THANK YOU! That is a big relief on my part! Pine Shaving, Shed idea, and Hay feeding. How would I check to see if she had a worm/ciccidia bloom? So I would just leave pine shavings in there, and clean the shed out once a month? My neighbor uses tee posts and skids for her fencing, so that is what I am using. (My Dad is a construction manager, so we can get free skids). It is redneckey, but hey, it works! =D

~Rachel


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

There are a lot of images on Google for reclaimed pallets/skids you can actually even build a nice looking little fence, we reclaimed some long skids to use as walls in one of our goat barn walls in the past, they also make nice lofting areas for the goats. I forgot to second putting the hay on one if you are using round rolls. 
The only way to tell about the worms and coccidia is to do a fecal, there is actually a nice article on DGI about how to do a fecal and I am sure somewhere with 7 kids around being homeschooled that you have a microscope around so it could even maybe count as one of your school projects. 
******* engineering can always look good if you paint it right.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Rachel, please start reading all the info in Goat Keeping 101. From Birth to Kidding will be very helpful to you. There is a lot of info in that thread that will lead you to other threads about general goat care. Also, the "search" function is your friend. I use it often.

As De said, there is a lot of info here on fecal sampling, both DIY as well as places to send it. Or your vet can do it. Herbal wormers really aren't the way to go unless you DO fecal to know if it works. And I am guessing in Arkansas, it doesn't. But there are people from AR here so maybe they will chime in.


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## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

Hi! Okay, Thank you both! I will start researching! I have had two different people (that have had goats for years) that live right down the road that both recommended using the Hoegger's Dewormer. 

Thanks for your help y'all!


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Check their eyelid color against one of these charts. It can tell if there is anemia from worms. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=famacha+chart&qpvt=famacha+chart&FORM=IGRE


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I use the round bales for my goats and horses. I get 2 delivered every 13 days and keep them on pallets under tarps. Unless we have extreme rain for several days, the hay stays nice. I make sure I store the bales on their side so they repel the rain.


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## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

I also have a huge 610 gallon stock tank that we used for a swimming pool when we were little. AKA: http://www.plastic-mart.com/db_images/pm/ace/stock/arm-10139_610_gallon_stock_tank_water_trough.jpg. I was thinking I could get a round bale put it in there (We go to the creek now, so it is not in use) and then cover it with a tarp (My siblings and I could carry it to them in armfuls). It would seem almost impossible to get it wet.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Hi Rachel, welcome to the forum. For what its worth, If you put the round bale in the tank and the water got in, it wiill become a swimming pool for bales and your loss would be greater. In my experience with bales, unless they are stored inside, no matter how well you cover them, you will always get a little water into them. If the little water cant run away, eg in a tank, a little water becomes alot of water in a very short space of time. You might be better of as Sully suggests, putting the round bales on pallets, putting the tank on top of the bale, then the tarp over them both. Good luck with what ever you choose to do and have fun with your goats.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

When I lived in Jackson Hole and only had a few goats, I put the hay on pallets and covered with a tarp. Pallets work fairly well until the hay starts piling up underneath that has fallen through. Even better would be to put pallets down, and then the first layer on top of pallet straw, then the hay on top of that. If you don't want to use pallets, you could have the bottom layer be straw. I would not use a tank on bottom because of what Quentin just mentioned.


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## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

Okay! Thanks y'all! My Dad thought it might be better and easier if I used square bales, but we are still talking. How much SQUARE BALES would TWO pregnant goats eat from the beginning of November to the beginning of March? An est.? Thanks in advance!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I have heard approximately 5 lbs per doe per day. Always get more than you think they need.


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## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

Give them two flakes each do you think? That would be roughly 22 square square bales. I should probably get 35? I guess if I run out I can always look for more.


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## EmyAcres (Jul 3, 2013)

You may want to buy a bale of whatever you are going to feed them and see how well/much they eat over a week. I bout my two girls two square bales of rye grass hay back in the beginning of June and they haven't even ate one whole square bale yet!! But they are not in milk and they are only 9 and 6 months old. So before buying that much you may want to see how well they like it!  I kid that my my girls think that they are royalty cause they turn their noses up at so much!!


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## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

Laverne said:


> Check their eyelid color against one of these charts. It can tell if there is anemia from worms. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=famacha+chart&qpvt=famacha+chart&FORM=IGRE


Both the goats look like they are between borderline and acceptable.
(According to this chart) 
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/FAMACHA/FAMACHA2.jpg

I will get a bale, and see if they like it. Since they eat tall grass, and are not bred yet, they will eat more come winter. I guess I will try to average!

Feeling very happy about joining this forum!!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

You can't really measure in "flakes" especially when buying hay and comparing prices. A flake of hay can be different weights. I just free-feed mine in the winter, but I have sheep to scoop the wasted hay and feed to. No matter what, they will waste some. Ask the farmer when you buy hay, how much the bales weigh. If they are charging per bale, you can then do a calculation to see how much per ton that is, and you will be able to compare prices across the board between every hay farm. Remember that there is 2000 lbs in a ton. So, multiply 2 by 5lb, then multiply that by however many days you need to feed them, and that will give you an approximation to how many lbs of hay you need for the season. Then, when you buy the hay, divide by the lbs that each bale weighs, and that will give you a number of bales needed. Add some more, and that's what you will need. I always try to get all the hay I need for a year at once, or a couple times in the summer, because late winter/early spring, you will have a harder time sourcing it, and who knows what the quality will be.


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## RAK123 (Aug 3, 2013)

That is true. Thank you! I also found some fencing, so I am going to put that up, and get my goats off the pickets! =D


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