# Bo-Se vs. vitamin E/selenium gel



## prairiegirl01 (Jun 2, 2008)

I asked this question in another posting on copper, but it occurred to me too late that maybe it should be a new topic. Sorry about that.

So the question is this, can I use the vit.E/selenium gel instead of the Bo-Se shot? I'd rather use an oral med than a shot if I can.

Thanks!

Chris


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

prairiegirl01 said:


> So the question is this, can I use the vit.E/selenium gel instead of the Bo-Se shot? I'd rather use an oral med than a shot if I can.
> Thanks!
> Chris


No. I notice that you are located in Minnesota. BoSe is necessary in our area.

Giving injections is something that you need to learn and be confident in giving. Bose, antibiotics, vitamins, etc., all must be given as an injection so it is best you feel comfortable giving them. Practice makes perfect. 

Sara


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Giving shots can seem scary at first, but after doing it 2-3 times, it gets easier. Once you have been giving shots for a while, it will be so easy, you will laugh for ever being nervous :biggrin. Then you can show all your friends how to give shots. I have loaned meds to goat owners who have never given shots and they always seem so intimidated at first. They always call afterwards and tell me how easy it really was. I agree with Sara, practice makes perfect.

Tara


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## prairiegirl01 (Jun 2, 2008)

I can do the shots if I have to, but I have two concerns. One is that the last time I gave my whether a vaccination he ended up with an abcess at the injection site (Covexin 8) and so I didn't want to create a new site for potential infection, and two, with this staph infection on my doe I was thinking that that would be all I needed to somehow introduce staph into the injection sites. I shouldn't worry about this? And yes, I use sterile technique.

Why is Bo-Se so much better?

Chris


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Are any of you finding it difficult to obtain Bo-Se? I have been to 2 Vets in my area and have not been able to purchase any. They were going to order it but so far are unable to get it for me.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I will ask Tim...do you want me to send you a bottle if I find it?

Once again....bo-se, copper, worms  it's all the same. Start with bo-se we know the dosage, when to give it and perhaps with a local mentor you may even find that our 1cc per 40 pounds isn't enough for your area. Then run a blood test, give the gel, make sure and use a syringe so you know exactly how much you gave her and the mg/kg of selenium that was in the gel, since I am sure there are several brands. Then run another blood test...did it rise the level?

I know for my herd 1cc per 40 pounds is minimal it raises the blood level but not for very long...but we also don't have true defficnecy here in healthy animals. So I give more than 1cc per 40 pounds of bo-se to sick goats, new goats and to kids at birth...but for everything else I give 1cc per 40 pounds. 

So for your herd you will have to do the legwork to see if you can use the gel, otherwise your does will be defficient in selenium but also you are wasteing your money.

When on forums always ask when you hear information like this...do you fecal to know that wormer works? What worms are problems in your herd? Have you ran a test to see if Bo-se is needed? Has the selenium gel worked for you, how much did it rise the blood? Because you are going to quickly find that alot of folks simply parrot information they have heard, then you read it enough you think it's true.

I do not mean for one second, my way is the only right way....I just think when asking questions which concern your livestock and your pocketbook, ask the right questions. Because that is the one thing the internet can't do for you...get you into my barn, leaning on the milkstand, while you see my goats and talk goats. Because if you look out and see they look horrid, you wouldn't listen...right? 

I am mostly saying this because the person I know on the internet who gives this gel information is new herself, doesn't test and is guessing. vicki


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Chances are giving BoSe will not leave an abscess. My girls get lumps more often than not where their CDT shot goes, and never have gotten one after BoSe. I have given a lot of injections, so I know my "technique" is not to blame. I think mostly because the vaccine goes SQ and the BoSe goes IM, in the muscle. I also wouldn't worry about the staph, to be on the safe side you could wash the area with a little chlorhexidine on a cotton ball as that will kill staph. However, Staph aureus I believe lives on the skin anyway, it's a poor immune system that causes an infection. The bacteria is always there. (At least that's how it is in humans).


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Learn to read lables. If your jel doesn't have 2.19mg of sodium selenite (equivalent to 1mg selenium AND 50mg vitamin E...then your wasting money and time.
I doubt if it does, (and I don't have time right now to look your gel up) as most Rx items are MUCH stronger concentrate than over the counter.
Kaye


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It would be a super cool thing to do though perhaps a science fair project?

But alas, Kaye has a way of coming on and sqishing your dreams...with gentamycin in the pig section of jeffers!!! NOPE! You would have to give the whole vial 

Plus with the gel, the rumen degrades alot of oral meds when it is connected to a healthy adult...kids it's much easier to get by the rumen and use oral meds. Vicki


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Chris -- I thought about using the gel at one point, too, and called the manufacturer for clarification on the dosage. It's a little coy on the labelling. The product rep I talked to said that it was designed to be given daily. Pretty expensive and I'm not sure the person I spoke with really knew the efficacy of the product.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:rofl Sorry Vicki...but, I'm all about saving time and money. And getting the right amounts into a goat to do the most good. 
It's just so much easier to use the research we already have had done by professionals than trying to re-invent the wheel. 
Kaye


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

I use bose. I prefer to give shots then give stuff orally. With the shots, everything usually ends up in the goat, with the oral stuff, it usually ends up on me. lol


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## prairiegirl01 (Jun 2, 2008)

OK, I'm convinced : ) Lots of good reasons to use the Bo-Se instead. I'll see if I can get a vet to prescribe it for me--there isn't a vet locally who knows much about goats--the one guy who did just retired--so I haven't had a lot of luck getting good information from our local vets so I've been reluctant to have one come out here and pay for a farm call when they don't know anything! You all are way better! But at some point I'll have to find someone I trust. 

So, Vicki, in the old email you sent me you advised Bo-Se, Lysigin, better minerals, and chlorhexiderm. I've done the chlorhexiderm with good results, are you saying I should do the Bo-Se next to all three, Lysigin to all three goats, make sure they're wormed properly, add the better minerals and wait on the copper to see how they respond?

Thanks,

Chris


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks Vicki!
I so appreciate your willingness to help... Let me see if the Vet here can order it - If not, I may come begging.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Tim it would be great to do something for you for a change!
.......................................

So, Vicki, in the old email you sent me you advised Bo-Se, Lysigin, better minerals, and chlorhexiderm. I've done the chlorhexiderm with good results, are you saying I should do the Bo-Se next to all three, Lysigin to all three goats, make sure they're wormed properly, add the better minerals and wait on the copper to see how they respond?
............................................

It's what I did to get rid of the staph dermatitis I had, and it isn't my protocal at all but an old Judge, Dan Moorman...he was the one who told me to use Bo-se more often, to use Lysigin (back then it was stomata staph) and was the first person who got me thinking about our mineral problems with nubains.

So yes I would do the above and then when you are comfortable with the information from another breeder on bolusing, or have had time to really study saanendoah.com then bolus. What you may find is that you can move to a lower amount of copper in your mineral also. Minerals with copper oxide etc...in it are alot more expensive than copper sulfate. vicki


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Tim, If you go to the vet, try and make it sound like you know your stuff. If you go in studdering and stampering sounding like you don't know anything about goat meds, they are less likely to work with you. I took a whole list of prescrip meds I wanted to have on had to the vet. I had the doses I needed, the names and what they were used for. I explained to him that we had a whole herd of goats and I knew they had medical problems, some that could hit faster than you could get to the vet and save them. I needed these meds for emergencies, and these "just in case". I explained each one and told him I just wanted a prescription and I would fill it online through valleyvet. He admited he didn't know anything about goats, but since I seemed to know what I was talking about, he would give me what I needed. I wasn't that successful with the first vet, who outright told me they had not heard of some of the meds, and refused to give me epinephrine because it is too dangerous!! I have no idea why they would not realize the emergency need for epinephrine when it was to be used to save a goats life! Sometimes you have to try with more than one vet. Some are nice, some are jerks! Take your chances, If you need help getting the prescrip, let me or Vicki know. We here at dairygoatinfo are here to help each other. 

Tara


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Tara  Laughing with you girl!!!!

Tim has had goats longer than anyone I know. I don't think he means they won't give it to him but that they can't  Vicki


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2008)

Trust us, Tim knows his stuff.  If you have bred Nubians for any length of time then you should be familar with who Tim is...

Tim, how long have you raised Nubians under the Pruittville herdname... 30+ years? :rofl

Sara


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Sara, Wow, don't I feel dumb. :blush Now I know who Tim is, after all we owned one of his bucks...Pruittville's Resurrection J. Sired by: Pruitvilles Doctor Luke and Dam: Auroa. I never really paid attention til now. We have numberous kids from JayJay. We have only been breeding Nubians for 2 years, but started with unregistered does, so no reason to look at the pedigree. I hadn't been on this website a whole lot, so his name didn't ring a bell...Sorry Tim. Now I will always remember you. BTW, we sold Jay Jay after 2 years because he was kin to most of our herd, and now we have two bucks who aren't (Thanks Vicki). 

I looked back at JJ's pedigree and the breeder is Tim Pruitt, just that we had always called Resurrection J by the name of JJ and I had not looked at his pedigree in a long time to see the Pruitville's name in front of the goat name. If the rest of Tim's goats are as good as JayJay was, then I can see why he has been successful for over 30 years! 

Maybe if the vet don't have it he can write him a prescription and he can get it filled online. I had one vet tell me they could give me the Bo-se, for 2 times what it cost me to order it and have it shipped online, but they refused to write me a prescription. Sorry if I made it sound like Tim didn't know what he was doing. :blush2 The reply would be a good recommendation for newbies who don't know how to approach a vet. After the first vet told me NO, I was nervous about going to the second one. I printed all my paperwork and walked in with confidence . Walked out with the prescripts I needed and $35 less money in my pocket (for the office visit). But now all I have to do is bring him a goat and he will give me prescriptions for whatever I need. (Vets words, not mine). 

Tara


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

:rofl It's ok Tara! 
I was able to get the Bo-Se. He ordered it for me - it was a bit pricey at $30.41 for a 100 Ml bottle but then everything is pricey nowadays.

I have had the Pruittville herdname since 1970.  Yep! That's when I was but a boy. Back then, I owned a grandson of Cadillac Geronimo - a pretty spotted buck. However, I have not been showing but since the early 90's. Glad that you got some nice kids from JJ. 

Thanks again Vicki for offering to help me out. That's certainly appreciated.


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Tim, that was pricey. We order all our prescrip meds from valleyvet and everything else from jeffers, qcsupply, and hoegger. Glad you was able to get the bo-se.

Tara


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Tara,
What do you pay for Bo-Se?


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Tim, through valleyvet.com, it was $16.95 with free shipping. The vet wanted $40 for it, but refused to give me a prescription to fill myself, so I went to another vet and got it there, plus established a really good doctor/patient relationship for any meds I will need in the future. 

Tara


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Tara,
A lot of vets won't write a script, they want the profit from the sale. Just logical business sense. And yes, the mark up is about double.

I'm in the same boat as Tim...my drug vet "says" he can't get Bo-Se, so I have a vet friend in another state get it for me and I pick it up at Convention. I'm told what it cost them, and I add $5-$10 for their trouble. This has worked for about 4-5yrs. for me. I order two bottles at a time...just in case.
Kaye


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## rg1950 (Feb 9, 2008)

Kaye,
I have noticed that the vets around here don't care and I gave up on trying to get prescripts last year. This year, I stayed determined. I called a vet friend of a friend of mine hoping they would do it and they would if I took the goat to them, but it was over 160 miles one way, so I tried the next vet who outright told me that they could not do most of the meds. Hadn't heard of some, didn't believe in prescribing others (epinephrine was one of the no no drugs). I guess I got lucky with the next vet and took a chance that worked. I got a prescriptions for 2 refills and he told me if I needed anything, just bring him a goat for documentation and he would give me the meds I needed. Some of the meds I needed weren't labeled for goats. 

Its a shame that goat owners have so much trouble getting what they need to keep their goats healthy when they know more about their animals than the vet does.  

I have had Vicki's phone ringing off the hook for medical and general goat questions, and I have sent her tons of emails for advice. I had to get her to help me fix somethings the vet messed up on. The people on this message board are more knowledgeable than probably 90% of vets in this country when it comes to goats. I am glad the vet I found doesn't want to force me to pay their prices and was willing to let me order it myself. 

Tara


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

> Its a shame that goat owners have so much trouble getting what they need to keep their goats healthy when they know more about their animals than the vet does.


While most people on here know what they are doing....there are many out there who don't and would love to save money without the vet's opinion. Working in a vet's office taught me there are a lot of weirdos out there, people who use trial and error to see if drugs work. Doing your own veterinary work is one thing if you know what you are doing, but if you only think you know what you are doing it's a disaster. Thinking of dogs castrated with elastrator bands, kittens killed with horse dewormer, the list goes on and on. I've heard of people using Monistat for ear infections and some home "remedies" that are just plain wacko. All in all, I'd rather have to do a little legwork to get my drugs than have them available to any old Joe. Not to mention the legal issues, vet gives you drug, you kill goat with drug, sue vet for all he's worth. There is supposed to be a valid client/patient/doctor relationship at least here in MI, and you can't have that without seeing the animal. There are many vets who don't know goats all that well, but most of them do know more about physiology and pharmacology than the average person. That's why they have the drug license in the first place .


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, the Vet here is a large animal vet and his partner is more for small animals (dogs and cats). I want them to make a living. I sure don't want them to go out of business. When Dr. Gamble began his practice there were 40 dairies in this county (parish). Today the only one that exist is an exhibit dairy for school kids. Agriculture is out - cows were sold and land put into timber as farmers couldn't make a living with them. It is not easy to get local grown hay anymore as there are fewer people baling hay and more fields planted with trees. 

I do chafe at the double or triple price of a drug but the Vet actually makes very little money on me. I do my own disbudding, casterating, hoof trimming etc. They did come out once a year for testing but now I do my own blood drawing as we are now a bangs and TB free state and testing is no longer necessary for those diseases. 

The "dog and cat" vet was on call one night when CH Pretty Posie's udder was ripped and would not hold milk. He was reluctant to sew her back up because of the risk of infection and losing the udder anyway and being blamed for it. However, I convinced him she was of value as a brood doe - to try his best. He sewed her up beautifully right in my milk room and she healed up with hardly a scar. Although they don't know everything about goats - both Vets are worthy of keeping around and I am really happy to support them. 

I guess just needed something to complain about... and wanted to know how bad they stuck me.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

My vet also doesn't make alot off me, but she does my customers and my husband and his dogs The same bottle of chlorhexideen she sells me for $10 she sold him for 4 times that price  So her livestock folks get much better prices on their products from her than pet folks.

I wouldn't want to be vet, shoot I get enough of people wanting me to bring their dieing goat back to life, call me sooner! And I only play a vet on the internet  Vicki


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