# Swayback trait seems comon in my goats, is it bad and what's it called?



## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

I've been searching and trying to learn about conformation, but I haven't found much about this trait. We've been using the same buck for 3 years and most of our goats seem to have a swayback or maybe the shoulders come up too high. I've attached some pictures below. The first one shows it pretty well, if you look at the top line, directly behind the shoulders it looks like she is swaybacked. The second picture is a doe I culled since she had it worse than anyone and it got worse as she got older. On the third picture if you look at the white doe in the back you can see it. In the fourth picture, the doe in the foreground shows the dip directly behind the shoulders.

What is this and is it genetic or is it a shoulder problem? Thank you for any and all info.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Hmm.. I think it is genetic. A top line fault - the loin is too high, not level. I got rid of some goats that were showing this trait this year. It looks worse if they loose weight off the top line (like your bottom photo). I'd start looking for a buck that can give you a better top line - straight and uphill.


----------



## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks Angie,

That's kinda what I was thinking. Do any of you know any good La Mancha breeders in Southern California that you can recommend? Either for breeding or purchase? 

By the way please feel free to criticize any and all of my goats faults, I won't take it personally. I'd love to know what needs improving. Maybe I need to start over with some better blood. Thanks.


----------



## Island Creek Farm (Jun 16, 2010)

The last photo looks roach backed...we had a milker that had it, good milker, but we culled her for it


----------



## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Amanda,

It looks worse than it is in that picture, but you are right, her and her sister have a curved up top line, especially towards the rear half of their back. I went and looked at our buck and sure enough he has a curve to his top line as well, not as bad as the doe but definitely curved up. We also have a doe out of the same sire as our buck and she has a good curve as well. Thanks for posting, I never realized it was undesirable trait. We might be eating goat for quite a while to come. :sniffle


----------



## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

That area of the back directly behind the shoulders is called the chine.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I've found setting them up in show stance and taking photos helps me pick this out. The bad ones, there is just nothing you can do to make them look straight. It also seems to get worse with age and kidding. Not as easy for me to pick it out in my kids. Guess that shows how important a strong back is!


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't see any weakness in the chine in the photos. The first 3 are fine, if the 3rd ones legs were back, the photo would be perfect. A dip from a sharp wither (the top of the shoulder that meets the neck is a good thing) and then of course it has to go down into the wither, but yours are fine and strong. The last photo is the opposite of a weak chine, roached. Is she bred? Most does fall apart and then put it all back together after kidding. Her back is not a trait I would let go forward in my breeding plan if it is like this all the time or you see this in her daughters.

The dip behind the wither/shoulders is good. The roach is not. A weak chine shows up as a sway back horse. Vicki


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Here is one of my does that had a weak chine.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I think a roachy topline is stronger than a dippy one, but still not as good as a straight one. If you don't want to cull everyone, look for a buck with a good topline, AS well as both his parents having one, and look for improvements in the offspring. If there are some does that are able to improve on themselves, and some that don't, you could keep the ones that do as brood does still, and cull the others.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Here are some more examples. These are my goats, so I can pick on them however I want to.  Talking about topline only; some of them have other faults that I'm not discussing here.

This one has a pretty good topline, but the withers (top of shoulders) could be a little more pronounced









Another pretty good one









Dippy chine (please ignore the weird haircut)








I think a lot of dips in the chine start with too steep a rump, and I think that's part of this doe's problem; I have a picture where she's set up different and it doesn't look as bad as this one. 

This doeling didn't actually have a roached topline I don't think, but she was cold when we took the picture, so she was roaching it. 









I think they do that sometimes when they are either cold and hunching up, or if they are uncomfortable with too full udders for show, etc.


----------



## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Thank you all for your comments and pictures they've helped a lot. The reason I posted was because I was looking at pictures of the Nationals winners and then comparing them to our goats and maybe I shouldn't have done that. They all just looked wrong to me for a couple of days, but I'm feeling better about them now.

Thanks for the pictures of the weak chines, that is further back than what I was concerned with, I was worried about the dip directly behind the shoulder blades. 

Thank you Vicki, you've relieved my worries about the dip. The doe in the last picture is not bred and actually kidded in May, but I think she was just standing weird. She is a little roachy but not as bad as she looks in that picture. She is the doe in the first picture below and her twin sister is in the second picture. Their kids appear to have flatter top lines than they do.

The doe in the first picture looks to me like she is more roached and has a weaker chine than her sister in the second picture. The white doe in the third and fourth picture is their dam (Alpine X LaMancha cross). I'd love to hear what any of you think their strong and weak points are. I tried to take better pictures, but they didn't turn out great, sorry. Thank you.


----------



## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

I also took some pictures of a few more of our does and I'd love to hear what you all think is their strong or weak points. Thanks. The first is a full sister of the Alpine LaMancha cross above.


----------



## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

Well, I am with you. just now trying to figure out confirmation. I must say, I LOVE seeing the pictures and cant wait to hear what ppl say. Love learning something new and confirmation is my biggest weakness. Thanks for posting this! - P.S. can anyone recommend any youtube or videos with real goats on confirmation? i don't do well with the drawings. I need real pictures with real goats. LOL - yes i am three and still use crayons. :lol


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Brenda & anybody else interested to learn more-there is a confirmation page on Facebook that's pretty good. You can post pictures and get feedback, and look at other pictures people have posted. Just remember that pictures are not the same as real life, and a lot has to do with how they are set up or not/how good the person is at setting them up as well.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And take a look at the critiquers goats, if you don't find them attractive yourself, why do you care what they think?


----------



## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

Nancy, can you tell me what to search for on FB? i can find it. :help


----------



## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

When I got my Nigeian doeling she was roachey backed and copper deficient so I felt like copper would help to level her out so I got her copper levels up and she really leveled out nicely. So I am curious if you copper bolus.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

It is called: Caprine Conformation Clinic


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

"...And take a look at the critiquers goats, if you don't find them attractive yourself, why do you care what they think?..." LOL Vicki!
Thanks for the info on the facebook thing. That should be interesting!


----------



## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Laverne,

We do copper bolus but as usual we are behind. Most of them are at 8 months now, but those two sisters are at 1 year. It's at the top of our list and will be done as soon as we are finished with our rental and can spend a day on the goats. I'll look for a change after we bolus them. Thanks.


----------



## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Unfortunately we got rid of our facebook page about 6 months ago so I can't access anything on there, but if we ever reactivate it I will check it out. Thanks.


----------

