# Nutrition: building the rumen in kids (questions on Vicki's 101 post)



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Thanks for all the information in the goatkeeping101 section on rumen development in kids/calves. That's super good information (I have been following that thread as info was added and more was added today). I am a big believer in that and have always used that knowledge when raising calves. I am struggling with this with goats a bit more, because so far I have not found a 'starter' that the young kids will start eating as early as I like. I offer pellets from day 3, try to put a bit in their mouth, even, but they really don't start eating my starter pellets until they are about 1 1/2-2 wks old, some groups even later. The dummies DO nibble on their bedding (forage). So, Vicki, or others, what starter grain/pellets do you use to get these kids off to an early start eating grain? Oh and by the way, I was always told goat kids can not have whole grain, that's why I have been trying out several pellets. Wrong? Right? 

Marion


----------



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I use the Blue Seal Dairy Heifer grower. Its mixed, pellets and crimped /cracked grains with an added coccidiostat. My little ones start nibbles at a couple of days of age but don't eat a lot of it until later. I always provide a rotted log for them to munch on to provide bacteria for their gut. They will eat that starting at a few days of age.


----------



## nlhayesp (Apr 19, 2012)

A rotted log????


----------



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

The rotted log, or any other fiber source would qualify as 'forage' though. Hmm, a heifer ration. I am going to try that. I can try a calf starter and I'm wondering about those milk-based 'pre-starters' that some people use that try to wean their calves early. The thing I don't like about calf starters, though, is that they usually contain quite a bit of molasses.
Marion


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I give mine clean soil, it's amazing how much they will eat. Babies have a natural drive to eat dirt and if they don't have it they will mouth and eat other things I don't want them mouthing and eating. I dig down a couple inches into the ground to get clean dirt and give it to them. They also natural love rotting logs as mentioned and it's a good idea to give them too. I expect they are getting beneficial microbes from it.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I normally breed my juniors at 8 or 9 months old, 100+ pounds. This was the second year that I moved my doelings to grain, not byproduct pellets (meat goat pellets) but grain. We got to 100 pounds at 7 months old and the girls will have kids at 12 months old. Of course milk, milk and more milk is fed until they are weaned. By by not letting them even have access to hay and browse, by having the grain be whole oats, crimped barely and corn, wheat middlings, rice bran pellets and calf manna knock off, for a soy protein to 16%, then giving them alfalfa pellets for equal protein, calcium......once ruminating they had browze and grass hay. By taking the information in the articles to really the extreme, it resulted in more growth. The girls are tall, lean, long with very developed rumens/barrels/depth of body. I know in the instance of the full sister at her home farm, my doe purchased as a young doeling is bigger than her sister at the breeders farm, who raises excellent animals also. So just different goals. If you aren't going to breed young, then of course, once they are ruminating well, grown well, take away their grain for your excellent alfalfa. But grow out that rumen with grain.

I would assume even meat goat pellets contain some grain  We may be assuming alot though  But the difference was pretty remarkable. I will be repeating it again this year. 

We know that by feeding them whole and crimped grains it grows out more papillae, where fiber does not. Just with those facts alone, starting them on grain with their milk as soon as they will eat it should be the goal. But then my goal is not 2 year old 1st fresheners, so YMMV.


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

> "There are 5 requirements (or "ingredients") for rumen development. These include the presence of
> bacteria, availability of liquid in the rumen, rumen motility, absorptive ability of the rumen
> epithelium and availability of calf starter. "


Why does it say "calf starter"? How is it superior to other grain?

I have found my kids prefer the darn pellets to whole grains, they start eating them faster.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

That is going to end up being a regional term, here it is molasses cottonseed meal with corn and oats. Purina's old sweet calf we fed was nothing more than a textured horse feed (oats, corn, barley etc.) with cottonseed meal and molasses. Vicki


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I was reading that the textured feed is more palatable. I wonder if it's the molasses? Probably a combo of that and the little pieces to pick at.


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

And it seems so strange that just feeding hay in addition to the grain delays development so dramatically! My dam raised kids go with mom and eat all sorts of stuff, no keeping them from eating forage... but, if they are doelings anyway, they usually stay on mom until 6 months or even more so it's not as big of a deal. The bucklings are a different story. 

I have got to make some kind of chicken proof creep feeder.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I do not know if the study is still on their site, it was in one of their newsletters....but pipevet.com has this cool article on....at what age, what kind of feed, size of pellet etc. is most palatable to lambs. Vicki


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Very interesting - I definately have noticed dam raised doelings with mom for six months grow the best for me. They are monsters. Going to try to adjust my routine for my occasional bottle babies and pass the info on to people buying bottle babies. It's a bummer to buy kids then have to devote two years to getting them to production weight.


----------



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Around here the pellets are mostly soy and mystery grain. Mine grew wonderfully on it and were breeding size at 6 months. Nice growthy doelings. As soon as the girl gets her shipments of Chaffhaye, my kids will be on that so I can feed whole grains.


----------



## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I like feeding whole grain much better than a starter or the pellets, so I'm definitely going to use that. And on the post above: yes feeding hay does slow down rumen development, for the simple reason that a young ruminant isn't a ruminant yet and therefore requires different feed than a grown (true) ruminant.


----------



## 2Sticks (Dec 13, 2007)

Vicki,
Here is my question. I have searched everywhere and can't get crimped Barley (or barley of any kind) or Rice bran pellets, only rice bran that's loos and the goats won't eat that. How would I adjust for the lack of rice bran pellets and barley?


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

In addition to grain for young goat kids, have people noticed different results by supplementing with alfalfa pellets vs Chaffhaye?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Tamera, other than in textured horse feeds I can't afford barley on it's own. Can you ask a mill in your area what they use for fat there? It's how I found rice bran pellets.


----------



## 2Sticks (Dec 13, 2007)

Yes, I can call the closest mill. I did find barley years ago but it was sky high. So am I understanding correctly that you are using textured horse feed and adding rice bran pellets?


----------



## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Adrienne- I can't say one way or the other about how Chaffhaye vs pellets affects rumen development, but I will say that my kids eat Chaffhaye is quantity much earlier than they did the pellets.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, we have good ones here being in horse and cattle country. Since I do not use my grain as my source of protein, I can use one that has a minimum of soy in it. There is a pellet in it but it is the mineral pack. To this I add rice bran...to the kids I add calf manna and to the milkers I cut it in half with whole oats.

What I found out is that my source of Chaffhaye was old, way over fermented...it is harder for me to deal with than alfalfa pellets. The price would have to come down below alfalfa pellets for it to be a change I would make.


----------



## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

smithurmonds said:


> Adrienne- I can't say one way or the other about how Chaffhaye vs pellets affects rumen development, but I will say that my kids eat Chaffhaye is quantity much earlier than they did the pellets.


I'm going to experiment with Chaffhaye & new kids this year.... In theory, it should be an excellent starter food.... The fermentation process is already started, the plant material is partially broke down, and it's full of beneficial bacteria to populate the developing rumen..... And it's not the same beneficial bacteria that is in things like probiotic paste (which is dairy based), rather the bacteria in the Chaffhaye breaks down plant matter. Add in the benefical yeast and the soft, small pieces and I bet the kids will do well on it. Kidding starts at the end of February, so I'll find out then 

I usually offer grain, alfalfa pellets & hay from about week one, though they rarely touch it.. I put out small portions each day, and if they don't touch it, I feed it to the bucks and put out fresh the next day.... Last years kids wouldn't touch the grain for about a month and I was offering both whole grains & pelleted.... Didn't touch the alfalfa pellets for about 2 months. They eventually got with the program and I'm happy with how they turned out, but it was a bit frustrating that this group took so long to try the food...


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, I was asked to post the way I do it....which of course is completely different than everyone else, LOL.

I do not grain my kids. In fact, they don't get grain until about 2-3 weeks before they are due to kid. 

My Feb doelings were weight taping at 95 # in August of this year. So we were hitting the same growth rate as Vicki was getting on the grain only diet, except ours was an alfalfa only diet. Of course, my alfalfa comes off of our own fields, so it is pretty consistent quality. Grain added to our hay has caused us leg issues in the past, so I simply don't do it. 

The one thing that I have done over the years is to use rumasin blocks on my kids after weaning. Before weaning, I use Deccox M in their milk. 

I have also always selected for size.....big kids that turn into big, competitive yearlings are what I keep. I've sold some very nice does that just weren't the size I wanted.


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Tracy in Idaho said:


> My Feb doelings were weight taping at 95 # in August of this year. So we were hitting the same growth rate as Vicki was getting on the grain only diet, except ours was an alfalfa only diet. Of course, my alfalfa comes off of our own fields, so it is pretty consistent quality. Grain added to our hay has caused us leg issues in the past, so I simply don't do it.


Can you elaborate on the leg issues?


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Bowed legs in FF yearlings. It only showed up when we tried to grain pregnant first fresheners. No grain = no bowed legs.

While brainstorming with a friend who is a vet/equine nutritionist, she thought that we may have so much calcium in our hay that it actually binds up and blocks the uptake of phosphorus. Indeed, we have completely straightened bowed legs with injectable phosphorus, so there may be some truth to that.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Crystal did you read the articles?


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Tracy in Idaho said:


> Well, I was asked to post the way I do it....which of course is completely different than everyone else, LOL.
> 
> I do not grain my kids. In fact, they don't get grain until about 2-3 weeks before they are due to kid.
> 
> ...


How long are you feeding milk?


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I feed milk until I can't stand it, LOL. Usually until July....sometimes August or even later. 

I don't limit milk, from birth they get all they can drink every feeding. 3x a day while they are tiny, then 2 x day


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yep, I think that's the trade off. You can feed a lot of milk or a lot of grain... Or both I guess!

I'm thinking, if you're weaning at 3 months, you need to feed just grain and milk until near weaning where I would personally start introducing hay and keep them on hay and grain at least for a while. If you're weaning later on down the road and feeding lots of milk, it's not as big of a concern.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Tracy-The vets at Convention from Caine were saying that S. Idaho is phosphorus deficient, so I wonder if that is part of it too? It would seem though, that feeding grain (high in Phosphorus) would help, not hurt. Hum.


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Nancy, that is interesting. It all has to do with the ratio though - so if it is skewed then the problems show up I guess.

I don't claim to understand the WHY so much - but I do know HOW it happens -- for us anyhow. Other areas are likely completely different. That is why I say there simply is NO one way to feed these guys and have it work....there are many, and you have to find the one for you.


----------



## doodles (Nov 1, 2007)

I may try separating a couple of groups and seeing what works best here


----------



## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Yes Vicki, I read the articles.... Have them saved on my laptop in fact 

And since I've seen some remarkable kids grown out grain free (Tracy's are fantastic examples), with nice huge rumens, I do think I can start kids out on Chaffhaye and in theory, they'll do well. It's a consistent, nutrient dense alfalfa, with the benefit of partial fermentation and beneficial bacteria, bacteria that has already begun to break down the alfalfa... If I have seen grain free boer kids, literally right down the road from me, that are amazing and only eat trucked in alfalfa hay & browse/graze turn out so well, I don't see how I couldn't get at least equal results with Chaffhaye...

Like Tracy, I don't skimp on milk and feed it until I can't stand it anymore. One way or another, I'll find out if it works well or not....

Either way, it's all theory right now as I haven't raised kids on it but I'm trying it this year.

Another thing, I have read a few things reguarding building the rumen in calves and in some cases I don't think I can compare what I'm doing to what they do. Most raising calves use milk replacer, I use whole goat milk which I believe is better.... Most are feeding measured amounts, I'm feeding whatever they can comfortably eat...Most cattle raisers are pushing for calves to be on solid feed and off milk ASAP, and I'm keeping them on milk for months & months.... 

Not saying grain feeding doesn't work... It obviously does, I've raised my kids on grain every year, but Chaffhaye is cheaper for me so what harm will come from trying my lil experiment? It may work out BETTER than my typical grain feeding, and it may not. Won't know until I try it, and the best part, is if I don't like the results, I can always go back to buying the more expensive kid feed


----------



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Oats are faily high in fat, how about whole or crimped oats instead of barley? Barley here is very expensive, but oats are much more reasonable. I have switched the horses and goats over to native oats.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

What is the fat percentage in your oats there Sully?


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I wish I could get a good protein % without soy.


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

What about winter peas as a source of protein? I looked it up years ago, but never pursued it because my local feed mill said they can't get it in. I think I remember it being a fairly high percentage of protein.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Peas are nice because they are high in both protein AND energy and goats like them. I have been trying to find some around here with no luck.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

This year I went with alfalfa as my protein. Alfalfa hay and started the girls out on mixed COB/BOSS with alfalfa pellets as their milkstand grain. They did fine and it's what they peaked at. I did switch to lactator pellets later in the year, but am hoping to not do that this year--gonna stick with the grains.


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Tracy in Idaho said:


> Bowed legs in FF yearlings. It only showed up when we tried to grain pregnant first fresheners. No grain = no bowed legs.
> 
> While brainstorming with a friend who is a vet/equine nutritionist, she thought that we may have so much calcium in our hay that it actually binds up and blocks the uptake of phosphorus. Indeed, we have completely straightened bowed legs with injectable phosphorus, so there may be some truth to that.


This makes sense.


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

So is the bowed legs more from the heavy graining or the too-rich hay? The way I've heard it, the grain is high in phosphorus and the alfalfa is high in calcium, and they need to be well-balanced.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I have talked at length to breeders who have this problem, it is in my opinion the protein. Not in Tracey's case because her protein in her alfalfa wasn't as high as what others were saying, but the others also use protein blocks and high protein grains top dressed with calf manna soy high protein products...this binds the calcium and leaches bone calcium when there is low blood calcium. I think the most shocking info not talked about his the mortality rate at farms like this, not just in ruined long boes of the legs, but in death to acidosis, one herd lost 3 of her champions in one winter, 7 and 8 year olds, sorry in Nubians that is not old that is mismanagement.

I successfully have, and many others, bred and kidded out their bloodlines at 11 to 15 months, something they simply will not do. When I dairy-ed, it wasn't a conversation, I don't know anybody who freshened before 2, even myself freshening old yearlings at 19 to 20 months old for winter milk that first year, was unheard of at club meetings and shows (pre internet).

And it's why you have to figure some of this out for yourself, I don't have Tracy's hay or weather. And nobodies goals for their herd are exactly like anyone elses.


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Exactly, there is simply no one simple explanation to it.....we all have varying factors at play. Our alfalfa only runs 13 to 15% protein on average. On occasion we'll hit 18%, but never those mid-high 20s. Our hay is also low-potassium, which is the dairymen like to buy because the cows eat the heck out of it. That may be another component of the issue, I just don't know.


----------



## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually the rotted log is for the microorganisms needed to build a functioning rumen as well as the pad at the bottom of the rumen with less digestible fiber to house the reproducing populations in until the rumen is fully functional. If you allow your kids access to nature and or dam raise you will see many ways they try to jump start their digestion. One is to 'beg' for cud. Cud is a complete inoculate for everything they need to begin building their own populations for digesting fiber. We dam raise and my older does while chewing cud will often be assaulted by their kids when they smell the cud and they bump the dam's mouth causing her to let drop some cud. They greedily eat all of it. They also are more quickly adapted to foraging and eating grain. The log fibers that have begun to decompose house the organisms that break them down which are also found in the gut of ruminants. So making a decomposed or partially broken down log available if you are penning your kids will be of huge benefit. We always do that in our baby safe where they are sleeping overnight away from dams but also put it in our kidding stalls and they gravitate to it as young as 3 days and just munch and munch. 

We have had terrific success with whole grains and beet pulp and BOSS in very young kids but the first thing we offer is Elite Show Tech which is nothing special formulaicly but is a very tiny pellet that is very aromatic so they eat it readily very very young.
Lee


----------

