# Possible Freemartin?



## Epona142 (Sep 2, 2009)

Can does be freemartins?

My friend, who also raises Nigerians and Nubians, wanted to use my buck to breed. Fine of course, we're good friends, have clean herds, and often share bucks. 

She brought two does in July/August. The first came into heat normally, was bred. The second little doe never came into heat. I sent her home with the first doe and we decided to bring her back come fall.

She brings the doe back, and she's been here a while now. Since early September. Which is fine, I don't have a problem keeping her. But she's literally had no heat, still. I'm home all day and check on the goats often between work, so it'd be hard for me to miss. And I've been penning her with the buck at night just in case.

She puzzles me. She's a polled goat, out of the Flat Rocks line. She's mature but...her vulva seems very small to me. I look at her and I look at my juniors I'm getting ready to breed, and it's just...smaller. Her teats are smaller too. She just doesn't look "right."

Could she be a freemartin? Or even a hermaphrodite? Other than having a smaller vulva/teats she looks "normal" so to speak. 

I could get pictures if that would help. I'd sure hate for this doe to be sterile, she's my friend's special favorite. :help


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Try pushing the vulva back. Can you see a small penile shaft?
Yes pics would help.
Tam


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I had one like that. She's a Nubian doeling. I had my friend examine her with an AI kit. She said she could see a uterus, but that the distance between the vulva and cervix seemed short. My intention was to send her on the meat truck, but a man who was dropping off wethers to ship decided to buy her and see what happens. I question her fertility, but will let folks on here know if she does have kids come spring. I'd have your friend's doeling examined with AI equipment.


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## Epona142 (Sep 2, 2009)

Here are the pics I took real quick. I did do a vaginal exam once with her, but I wasn't quite sure what I was looking for, I've only done that on does in the process of kidding.

It didn't feel quite right though..very tight, nearly like the anal canal, if that makes any sense.


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Just in case, give her an extra BoSe shot two months in a row, and copper bolus. I had a doe who did not come into heat when she was under stress. Extra Bose, copper bolus and improved nutrition made her blossom!

There are some lines or individuals who need more of some nutrients to thrive. It can be a genetic thing, or she just wasn't eating her share when the other goats were chowing down. Some are more sensitive to selenium deficiency. And Vitamin E. 

But, yes, Freemartins occur in a lot of animals. Even goats.


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## Epona142 (Sep 2, 2009)

Well you see, that was my first thought. I copper bolus twice a year and administer Bo-Se when I feel it's needed. 

They have a free choice mineral of course, good pasture, hay. I don't generally grain dry open does.


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

Here's my 2 cents worth- some goats have sneaky heats. I had a friend's doe come to my farm last year and all my does and her's were together with my buck. I never she her in heat. All my does got bred and still I didn't see her go into heat or the buck near her- ever. After 25 days, my friend said she was probably bred and I just missed it. I'm a home mom and have my eyes on the goats a lot, but I let her take her doe back home. Sure enough, 5 months later that doe had a kid that looked just like my buck! 

Maybe your friend's doe is bred and just never showed signs of heat. Try a blood test in about 30 days and see.


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## Epona142 (Sep 2, 2009)

Hopefully that may have happened. Before she leaves to go home, I'll draw blood on her for my friend and see. 

I've never missed a heat before (really!) but it's bound to happen right? :rofl


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

A doe who cycles over and over is usually cystic. If she isn't bred when you blood test her at 30 days, then ask the question again, we can tell you how to treat her for cysts. Vicki


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## Epona142 (Sep 2, 2009)

She doesn't cycle at all. I've never seen her in heat.

Now I once had a doe that just cycled over and over, stood for the buck every time. I figured she was cystic and off to a petting zoo she went. I didn't much like her anyways.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The doe in the photo looks bred, she has dried semen on her vulva???

Was she a litter of a twin with a brother? They would have had to share the same sack and placenta for her to be cotwin. If no brother in the litter than she can't be a free martin. If she isn't worth a vet visit...they can ultrasound her to see if she has ovaries, or if you know someone who AI's they can look eaisly to see if her vuvla goes to a cervic, but other than that it's always wait and see and if she doesn't kid than pet her or eat her. Vicki


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## Epona142 (Sep 2, 2009)

She may have just peed. Certainly wasn't bred yesterday, Blizz had no interest in her at all and it wasn't dried semen, I check religiously. 

I have no idea what her littermates were, as she's not my doe, and I haven't really expressed my concerns to her owner just yet. It'll be up to her what is done, but I wanted some opinions on if she looked/seemed abnormal.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Nigerians can be funny when it comes to breeding time. I have a couple does that I watch like a hawk when they are in with the buck, but I never see them in heat or acting like they are in heat and I never see the buck cover them but sure enough 5 months later I have kids on the ground. 

Also you said she was polled you can get hermies when breeding polled goats. Its common when both parents are polled. Polled is a dominant gene, meaning if the goat only gets only copy of the polled gene he/she will be polled(Pp), and goat with 2 copies of the gene(PP) will also be polled and will always produce polled kids, doesnt matter what shes bred with, same goes for bucks with the polled gene. However polled goats that carrie 2 copies ot the gene(PP) have a greater chance of being hermies or producing hermies. This is why polled goats should never be bred to another polled goat. 

I have a buck out of Flat Rock lines he is out of Flat Rocks American Beauty and he is AWSOME!!!


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## Sunny Daze (Jan 14, 2008)

I had a ND that had this problem. I never found out for sure but ran her with a buck for EVER and she never was bred or came into heat. The bucks had absolutely no interest in her. Meanwhile, the other doelings I kept her age were bred and kidded. This particular doe was out of quads but no polled goats in her backhground that I was aware of. She also had a very small vulva and teats. I did a quick vaginal exam as well and noticed the same thing, it seemed very tight (I could barely get a pinky in). I ended up finding a pet home for her.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Also you said she was polled you can get hermies when breeding polled goats. Its common when both parents are polled. Polled is a dominant gene, meaning if the goat only gets only copy of the polled gene he/she will be polled(Pp), and goat with 2 copies of the gene(PP) will also be polled and will always produce polled kids, doesnt matter what shes bred with, same goes for bucks with the polled gene. However polled goats that carrie 2 copies ot the gene(PP) have a greater chance of being hermies or producing hermies. This is why polled goats should never be bred to another polled goat. 
.................................................

Most who actually breed polled goats disagree with this statement. Just go say this over on one of the swiss breed lists  as to why  Vicki


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I know people who breed polled to polled goats with no issues. I have done it myself, but there is more of a chance of hermaphordites when breeding polled to polled then polled to horned or horned to horned. Their has been genetic testing and research done on polled goats & cattle to prove that the polled gene is a dominant gene and when a polled animal is bred with another polled animal there is the potential for "deformaties". Not saying it will happen every time just look at polled herfords, they are bred together all the time and hermaphrodites or other deformities dont happen as often as the statistics say they should.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Than it is not an opinion, it's a fact that the science does not hold true. Not in dairy goats, nor in polled herfords. It can be explained how it 'should' produce more hemaphrodites, but in all cases of true hemaphrodites I know they are all from horned parents and they themselves are horned. One more of the many things we know that although is in books, rarely happens on the farm. Vicki


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## Epona142 (Sep 2, 2009)

I'd heard that theory, many times of course. I believe this doe's sire was polled, not sure of the sire. I don't believe it was a polled x polled breeding. 

Either way, I suppose it's her owner's issue. Until she goes home, she'll stay with Blizz and who knows? Maybe we'll have kids in the future. I may run a blood test myself out of curiosity. 

So far, I've not ever missed a heat cycle when I was looking to breed. I attribute that to being home all day and checking on my herd of brats quite often, even late at night. But you never know, right?


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

Her vulva doesn't look like a hermie to me. I have seen a vulva on a hermi and you could see a node, looked like a pencil eraser that actually protruded from the end of the vulva. I would put her with a buck and leave her there for about a month and then blood test her.


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## Epona142 (Sep 2, 2009)

That's what we're doing. She's been in with Blizz for quite a while now. I'll probably pull blood when I pull blood on the juniors.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"Than it is not an opinion, it's a fact that the science does not hold true. Not in dairy goats, nor in polled herfords. It can be explained how it 'should' produce more hemaphrodites, but in all cases of true hemaphrodites I know they are all from horned parents and they themselves are horned."

SOrt of like down syndrome. Yeah, statistically you are more likely to have a child with down syndrome if you are older--but the majority of children born with the condition are from women in their twenties--simply because there are more women in their 20's having children! I suspect it is the same--there are simply more nonpolled animals to be having offspring to track!


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

Your so smart LeeAnne


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I will second that!!! V


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

One study done in Polled goats years and years ago in a closely related genetic pool of Alpines.
It doesn't seem to hold much water in the Polled world.
Turns out the gene for hermaphroditism is a recessive gene as well. It is carried near the gene for Polled, but does not always go with it.

Having said that, my Polled herdsire bred a polled daughter. Not my intention. The single polled doeling did not look "right." She had a small protrusion from her vulva. She died at a month old and I did not open her up, unfortunately.
Rudy did it again this past Fall with another Polled daughter. This time, twins. Both polled, buck and doe. The doe didn't survive five days. She had nervous system issues. Either from the birth, or what have you. The wether was just shipped for meat yesterday at 8 months old. Very well grown with no issues.
I suspect Rudy carries the recessive gene and do not have plans to breed Polled offspring together from that line.
I do have another doe we just shipped this year as a barren three year old that I suspect was intersexed or possibly just a freemartin. She was twin to a buck and it was horned X horned breeding. Teats were not developed even at three. She was more bucky in appearance. Never did seem to cycle.
I have another doe we are giving one more year to. I so hope she is bred because she is the only daughter from a doe who quite prolific in our herd.


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## Epona142 (Sep 2, 2009)

My friend picked her doe up today. Apparently not only was the doe the only female born in a litter of either quints or quads, but she was bred before being sold (twice) and didn't take those times either..

I have to admit I think this doe is most likely sterile in some form of other. A shame. :down


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