# Help. Doe Down 3 weeks after kidding triplets



## pjt367 (Apr 3, 2010)

I have a doe who kidded on April 25, 2014. My mother passed away recently and I had to be out of town for a week regarding her death so I took my doe and her mother to my breeder to board and help her kid.

This doe started an udder on one side last year (she was a year old) without being bred. I decided I should milk it out and have it tested to see if it was mastitis. There was no mastitis (even though her mother had mastitis when she was born and she nursed from her mother for almost a year). I started milking her in June and continued until November when I dried off all of my does and bred 2 of them.

The doe delivered 3 kids, 2 bucks and a doe, on Friday, April 25. I forgot to pack the wormer so she didn't get wormed until 6 days after she kidded. The doe started with diahrea the day after she kidded and the breeder gave her 2 doses of Scour Guard and Goat Aide. Her diahrea stopped. I picked her up the night of the following Tuesday.

On Wednesday, I wormed her with Molly's Herbals Wormer #1 (for 3 days) she started with Diahrea again. I treated her with Pepto Bismol (I can't find Scour Guard anywhere.) On Thursday her diahrea was watery and she was not eating well. I took her to the vet. He did a fecal and said there were some parasites and bacteria but too many and no coccidiosis. But there were a lot of white blood cells in her stool. He assumed that maybe eating 3 placentas had upset her digestive tract. He gave her a shot of Excede and sent me home with one to give on Sunday.

On Monday I took her babies in to have their horns burned and took Penny (this sick doe) with me to have the vet look at her because she was not doing as well as I thought she should be doing even though over all she was some better. The vet said that since she was acting some better to give it a little more time. 

Some time that week I sent my husband to the feed store to get B Complex and something for diahrea. All they had for diahrea was something with an antibiotic in it. The clerk told my husband that she had worms and sent him home with Quest Plus. After doing some reading about Quest Plus I decided not to give it to her.

By later in the week she was regressing again in both diahrea and not eating much. She would nibble at things but not eat much, including fresh tree branches and weed, etc. She did show some interest in wanting to drink the babies' milk so I gave her some but then decided it might not be good for stomach. She would drink special goat electrolites but not the all stock electrolyes with molasses.

On Monday of this week, I decided to go ahead and worm her with the Quest plus wormer. I emptied the tube, stirred it up and then mixed it with molasses and electrolytes and drenched her with a little more than a third or the tube, not quite a half, though. Ii haven't seen any improvement in her eating or her diahrea.

Yesterday I decided that she had to be low in calcium for how little she was eating and nursing her babies (although I have bee supplementing the 2 or 3 times a day). She also wood only take a sip or two of the the Goat electrolytes so I drenched her serveral times during the day with molasses in the electrolyte buckets and drenched her with 3 doses of the CMPK bolus (1/2 of a cow bolus).



Because she wasn't eating much I also started drenching her with CMPK bolusses mixed with molasses and electrolyes periodically. I found this at the bottom of my message. Sorry if it is duplicated. I don't want to take the time to proof read right now.

At some point over the last few weeks she decided she wanted lots of baking soda. I always leave it out free choice, but I have been making sure to put out fresh everyday to encourage her.

Last night I locked her babies away from her and kept them locked away today (and I don't plan to put them back on her until she is recovered if at all depending on what your opinions are. I also noticed she was acting a little weak. I have her shots of Calcium Guconate 23% 30 cc -15 cc in each side - 3 times 2 hours a part. Which reminds me that I noticed one of her back thighs was shaking a bit one morning so I gave her a Calcium Gluconate shot that day, too. I didn't see the shaking again.

This morning she was acting much better. I fed the babies (who also have diahrea. I will take a sample to the vet tomorrow to check and see if there is anything there (probably not since I have just finished the 3rd dose of Molly's Herbal Wormer #1) to see what can be done for their diahrea. I also got carried away cleaning up in my milking area and headed to drench Penny and saw her trip going into a low shelter to lay down.

I called the vet and they said to bring her in on an emergency basis. I gave her a shot of Calcium Gluconate and drenched her with a CMPK bolus before I put her in the trailer and left. She was weak but she walked to the trailer.

At the Vet she was laying with one of her back legs out (unusual). But I didn't want to make her expend any energy until they decided what they were going to do for her. It was finally decided that they would keep her for the night and made arrangements to move her to a pen. Since it was going to be at least another hour before a vet saw her, I asked if I could give her a CMPK injection. They brought me 2 30 cc syringes full. The vet also commented that she is very dehydrated. 

She was not able to stand up and walk to the stall so one of the technicians and I lifted her onto a cart. I asked for syringe so I could drench her with water while I waited (since she is dehydrated that made sense to me.) I gave her the CMPK shot and I drenched her 8 times in 30 minutes (2 cups - not much for how a goat drinks). About 30 minutes later she got up and ate some paper (tax receipts) that were in my purse. I had gone to the receptionist office to see if I could use their wifi to cancel my Saturday appointments. She was probably up for 5-10 minutes then she layed back down.

When the tech came in she wouldn't get up for him. They did another fecal test while we waited and said they didn't see anything at all in it.

Another vet came to assess her and decided to give her a Thyamine shot with other trace minerals in it (the shot was blue/green), a shot of Banamine, and tubed her with NPR? and STAT. It was a bag that was about a quart. I suppose it could be a half gallon. They put a bowl of alfalfa hay and about 2 cups of molasses all stock feed. They have a tech who will check on her throughout the night.

I noticed that her eyes seemed foggy. After about 30 minutes she started to perk up a bit and started nosing the hay and grain. But she didn't eat anything and wont' touch the water. Her eyes were a little better but still foggy some.

I can come and go with her as I wish. I left a bit ago and came home to send this message and take care of her babies. 

I feel like I should go back and keep drenching her throughout the night. I also think that I should continue to give her the Calcium Gluconate and the CMPK boluses (or CMPK if I can get the on call vet to get me a bottle) shots throughout the night every 2 hours. I asked the vet about giving her some calcium and he said there is Calcium in the NPR (I May have those letters wrong). I asked something else about Calcium and what is too much and he said it is a fine balance but he feels with the NPR drench and STAT for the extra energy it will jump start her.

Any suggestions would be very much appreciated. 

Hopefully my internet won't die on me like it did last time I asked for help in the middle of her mother's birthing crisis. Thinking about that still makes me want to shut down.

I really appreciate this forum. Thanks so much to everyone.

Off to take care of the babies and then I'll check before I leave for the vet again (I won't have internet there 

Paula Tarver
Austin, Texas


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## pjt367 (Apr 3, 2010)

*Update*

Penny is still alive this morning. Vet did blood work and calcium is high, 16 where high is 9. Glucose is also high so she should have plenty of energy to get up. Her back legs are week. The vet gave her more Thiamine. Sometimes her head and neck sort of bob or twitch, unstable. Now she is rolling her right eye eye back in the socket and sometimes the left. No burping or other rumen activity that I can detect.

Any ideas to help us.

Paula


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## LittleBits (Aug 6, 2013)

Stop with the CMPK, etc. You need to get her rumen going, give her large doses of probiotic paste, give b complex shots, do the banamine again. Give her neomycin for the diarrhea, and give some kaopectate. 
Check her ketone levels asap, it mimics milk fever.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

A cud transfer would be very beneficial.


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## pjt367 (Apr 3, 2010)

Penny died today. I have decided to sell my small herd and maybe someday find someone else to help. Thanks so much for all of your support. This has been a great place to learn. 

Paula


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry :'( 
It's usually best not to make important decisions when you're upset. We all lose animals sometimes and I know it really hurts.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

So sorry for your loss........don't quit, death is the hard part of raising livestock. It is a learning experience, for new breeders and old ones, so don't throw in the towel just yet.


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## cvalley (Apr 15, 2009)

So sorry for your loss. Hang in there as death of a goat is the most difficult -- move forward and think positive. This is a part of having a farm and the hardest. Ponder your decision to let go of the herd a bit more.


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## janner (Nov 3, 2012)

I know what you are going through is hard. I went through a cougar killing 2 of my first 4 goats and biting the third within 3 months of buying them. I was told at the time by my mentor "Janice, if you are going to have livestock, you are going to have dead stock". Everytime something awful happens to my goats, I look at it, after bawling my eyes out, like a learning experience. For instance, now I have LGDs. We try as hard as we can and we are not infallible, but people, like obviously you, who really care are treasured by our goats and goat community. You have gone through a lot by making the environment to keep goats and you are in an emotional state. Maybe this goat that died was one that no-one could save. Please, wait at least a couple weeks before giving up,
janice


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## salemfarms (May 4, 2013)

We lost three of our foundation does and the kids in utero with 2 of them in a 2 month period a couple of years ago. I thought I would lose my mind. Talking to my mentors, looking into the wonderful eyes of my other goats and praying a lot is what kept me going. You must remember you did all you could for your girl sometimes it just isn't in your power to fix it. The joy we get from these lovely girls and boys almost always outweighs the sorrow.


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## pjt367 (Apr 3, 2010)

Thank you everyone for your kind words and comfort. I appreciate your support. 

My biggest problem is that I don't ask enough. I read posts and try to figure out what is going on or I go to the vet when I don't have time to do the research. That was a very bad call this time.


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## pjt367 (Apr 3, 2010)

Now I need help with her kids. In caring for their mother I have forgotten to take care of their needs. They have diahrea. They are 3 weks old and one of my 4 week old kids started with diahrea.

I plan to take them to the vet to get a fecal test done so I know what I am dealing with. I have them 2 of the 3 doses of Molly's Herbal wormer #1 last Thursday and Friday night. I feel I need to wait long enough for that to clear their system so I can get accurate test results.

Please advise.

History:

I have pretty much been out of town from last November to April. My husband has been feeding and watering while I have been gone (my breeder dried them off for me in November) but he has not been worming them or cleaning up after them. I have been chipping away at the clean up but I'm not getting there so I have hired some help who should come this weekend. With carrying for Penny this past 3 weeks it has gotten worse. 

It is possible Penny and her mother Misty picked up something at the breeders that they have not been exposed to on my property and with Penny,s immune system being compromised over the last 5 months and then kidding snd carrying for 3 babies she could not defeat whatever it was. Misty had diahrea for one day when I brought them home and had been fine since. I have had 2 other does have soft stools for a day and them clear up. I know I have too many does for my backyard. I was waiting for kidding season to be over and make sure everyone loved before I put some does up for sale. 


Penny, s babies stayed with diahrea last week. I did not start separating them from the adults to offer them goat pellets until Friday. They have had free access to hay, alfalfa pellets, minerals and baking soda their whole life and have been nibbling and even eating them. I have also had 2 buckets of electrolyte water out for everyone the last 3 weeks. 

This week the diahrea had time to dry up before they start again. 
I,m supposing that some of the diarrhea could be worse from the 15cc of kefir I gave everyone last night or the goat pellets I started putting out for them. 

2 of Penny, s 3 week old babies are acting very vigorous and eating very well. They are drinking 16 oz 4 times a day. One is only drinking 6-8 ounces 4 times a day. He is acting more sluggish since his mother passed. 

I have a 4 week old buck from another doe who is much less frisky too. He is the other kid with diahrrea. I don't think he is nursing much from his mother the last 2 days. One side of her udder had been more full than normal. I will spend some time watching him more tomorrow. 

Your advice on how to proceed is much appreciated.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

They are at the age for coccidia to hit and I would treat them for it ASAP. They need the prevention round anyway. Use a sulfa, check the doses on this site to make sure you use an effective dose. Sulfa's work for both coccidia and bacteria too. Molly's is an aid but it won't get your coccidia for you. Ask anyone here I probably use herbs more than anyone, even on a goat with gangrene mastitis and would not trust Molly's with coccidia. To go herbally, you'd be dosing every hour or two for this.

And give them slippery elm to reduce inflammatory damage to the intestines. You want to deal with this very quickly. It will stunt them if it doesn't kill them.


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## pjt367 (Apr 3, 2010)

How much slippery Elm do I give them? Hopefully I can buy it at a health food store.

Sounds like the herbal remedies go through the body rather quickly so the shouldn't affect fecal test results now. I'll see if the vet will run a fecal test on them tomorrow to be sure I don't have something secondary going on from their mother as well.

Thank you so much.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

A good pinch per kid. You can put it in their bottles.

Fecals are great, but don't delay the coccidia treatment, they need it regardless. That's something you want to have them on a prevention schedule for. It will save you SO much grief and prevent stunting of the kids. 

I really like Baycox for coccidia since it's far less meds to give. You have to order it online though so you can't use it in this case, but I'd recommend getting a bottle. You can buy it from horseprerace.com . It's one dose per round instead of 5 like other products and you should only need 2-3 rounds since it also enhances immunity. You can do prevention with herbs but I've tried it and it was an absolute pain, I had to dose way too much. My recommendation would be to get your feet under you using the more conventional, easy stuff and then later you can work on branching out into using some herbs.


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## salemfarms (May 4, 2013)

Go to the health and wellness section. Scroll down to "different cocci doses..." this will tell you what your choices are for coccidia prevention. If you can handle 5 days of Di-Methox dosing, it's the best course of action, it just tastes bad and the babies don't like to be caught. With Corid, you have to very careful about weighing the babies.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Mix the med with some apple juice concentrate to help with the taste.


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## punchiepal (Aug 4, 2010)

I 2nd get them on cocci prevention now!. It can take them down quick, and they don't have to have scours to have it. Don't wait for scours to treat them for cocci.


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## pjt367 (Apr 3, 2010)

The fecals showed that the adults have low coccidia counts and the babies have moderate amounts. The vet gave me Marquis dosed at 1 cc per 30# for each babie and each adult. From what I read that is not quite enough. I treated worth the Marquis this evening, 5g probiotic paste, and 1200 mg slippery elm. The vet said to do the probios daily for 2-3 days. I assume I should continue the slippery elm for the same duration? 

I will take in another fecal in 2 weeks. 

From what I read I need to start with the preventiom doses for coccidodis in 3 weeks.

Anthing else?

SomeOne is coming to help me do some yard cleanup tomorrow? 

Thanks again for your help.


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## janner (Nov 3, 2012)

I wouldn't give probiotics and the cocci meds at the same time. The meds can be nullified by killing the good bacteriea in the probiotics. This is true for humans, too by the way. 
janice


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## donadavis (Mar 20, 2011)

Hi Paula,

I hope you are seeing improvements with your babies. What a tough ordeal you have been through! Double whammy's all around. I just wanted to tell you that i read through your actions and you can't blame yourself at all. You did exactly what you should have done right down the line. We all go through "if only" in our minds...if only I noticed it sooner, if only I'd gone to the vet faster, etc. There will always be casualties when you raise animals...you learn to see signs sooner and catch things that an ordinary person would never notice but it comes with practice, and, unless you are very lucky with some hard knocks. You are doing great and I hope your bad luck is at an end...it's been a tough year for a lot of people for some reason.

Best,

Dona

Spring Mtn Farm
Nubian Goats in Vermont


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## pjt367 (Apr 3, 2010)

Thank you all again for your kind words, support, and encouragement. It was very helpful to see that while I am incompetent in many areas, many of you have had similar problems and tragedies as you learn. That has given me some confidence to keep going. My husband really wants to keep the doeling from Penny so I will remain a goat owner. My property is really too small for full size goats so I will down size to Mini Manchas and try to find good homes for my full size La Manchas (except Penny's doeling).


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Every goat owner goes through feeling incompetent, more than once, I'm afraid.


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## pjt367 (Apr 3, 2010)

A shareholder and her son came and helped me get most of the yard cleaned, now I have to treat the grass. I'm planning to heavily spray it with 10% ammonia solution, 1/2 at a time with the goats restricted to the other half. 

In the meantime, one doe, Abernethy, has white eyelids and a grayish tongue. The vetvdidn't mention any worms only coccidia on the fecal last week. She and everyone else looked pink last week. They are going downhill fast. Tube pruners are still a lighter pink. I am keeping the babies penned away from the adults and the yard. 

The humid rainy weather is making everything multiply. 

I'm going to start on chemical wormers for all adults and kids unless anyone responds saying this could be complications of coccidiosis infection. Looks like both to me. 

The vet suggested that I start everyone on Corid in addition to the Marquis until I get everything cleaned up and under control. I read on this forum on 2 spots not to use Corid with Marquis. Anyone know for sure? 

Thanks for your help.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

At this point, you may lose the one with the gray tongue, no matter what you do. That is severely anemic. It is great to do things naturally, but if it is not working, these parasites will continue their damage and the results will be catastrophic. Not sure what Marquis is, but it is ok to treat for worms and cocci at the same time. Use the appropriate goat doses for the wormers. Cattle and sheep dosages are often the only ones listed on bottles and they are not always the ones to use for goats.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yes treat for both barberpole and coccidia immediately. Not ivermectin, use moxidectin (quest or cydectin) or levamisole for barberpole. Keep stress down as much as possible. I would recommend giving cayenne and keep a very close eye out because an anemic goat can get pneumonia which kills fast.


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