# What could this be?



## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

found this lump on my bred doe today. she is due late Feb.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Is your goat from a CL tested herd? Or a herd that has no visible signs of abscess?
This is a location for CL. 
The other 2 marks look like perhaps previous scarring from other abscess. Are there small round scars in the middle of those hairless areas?

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

It is very common for infected goats that are copper deficient to show signs of active abscess.
The coat on your animal indicates serious deficiency and or parasite load. 
If the rest of your herd looks this way they need a good loose mineral all the time with multiple forms of copper and they need to be bolused. Florida also has cobalt deficiency which can contribute to health issues. Maybe ask Cathy at Tallabred on here about Florida management. 
Lee


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

those are not scars, I had moved her fur around when checking the lump. It also is much further up her side than your diagram. 
I also give copper and loose minerals. In fact, I got the copper from Cathy. A breeder around the corner has nubians with fur just like this, she said its how they get in Florida winters. Her eyelids are beautiful pink.


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

I agree with Lee. Be very careful with that abcess. I would take her to a vet to have it aspirated. Do not do it on your property. You will know right away whether or not it is CL by what the pus looks like. You will be very lucky if it is not CL. After a diagnosis is made, I would be checking the whole herd and make confinement arrangements for any with visible abcesses in case of rupture, these does would need to be isolated. Once you have CL your herd is stuck with it and so, any new animals will be at risk for getting CL. I would not keep her or any of her herd mates should a vet diagnosis this abcess as CL. CL is transmissible to humans if the abcess is not properly drained through contact with the pus.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

First of all that is not "MY" diagram and it is all relative to the stance of the goat.
That is a drawing- you have a live goat. 
And
I am sorry to seem argumentative but a coat like that is indication of poor health.
Just because people have goats with coats like this does not mean it is a good thing. Sorry.
Enough minerals and copper supplementation and you will have none of that flyaway hair.
I have lived this Dawn so you will not convince me otherwise. I took a scruffy red LaMancha family and turned them shiny sleek black with minerals. Just because you have minerals out does not mean the ones who need it are eating enough. If it is high in salt then it will discourage enough uptake. There is lots of info in the archives about mineral supplements.
You could also be low in zinc and protein could be of poor quality if pelleted ration is fed.
Long hair as in winter coats should still lay down nicely and be shiny and soft to the touch and if you move it with your fingers it should spring back to a relaxed smoothly blended position. 


There are worm burdens that are not blood sucking and have no relationship to the Famacha (ripoff chart. By the time you have pale eyelids you have a long way to health). You can have a very large parasite load that does no blood sucking. The Strongyloides Ostertagia Trichostrongylus are just a few families that do not suck blood but infect goats robbing them of nutrition. 

I am not criticizing you by pointing this out- I am trying to help you have a healthy goat.
Lee


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<<I am not criticizing you by pointing this out- I am trying to help you have a healthy goat.>>

Amen to that ! Dawn, I agree with Lee that the coat does not look healthy regardless the lump. We have colder winters here than you do and have thick hair on the girls by now but it's sleek and shiny and very soft to touch and I have to say copper bolusing made the world of a difference to us.

Your signature states "new goat owner". There is no shame in being new and learning and there is lots to be learned from the old timers (no offense, Lee 

Jana


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

To have peace of mind about CL it's not a bad idea to do as Jennifer suggested and take her to the vet for testing.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I have to respectfully disagree with the hair coat issue here. There are perfectly healthy animals that have hair coats like that in the winter. I own one, our handsome Pruittville Navigator. He has scuffy, curly hair in the winter. I wondered where it came from, until I was at Tim's and saw Navigator's dam, Nantucket with her full coat of hair!!!! Saw one of his bucklings today, that I sold, and he has the same type hair. My animals are very healthy, and I still get some hair coats that are just rough in the winter - in summer they are sleek as can be.
Now back on the thread, I would have this abscess checked out before it opens up. It may be harmless, but you really need to know.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

For a visual example- this photo was taken 2 days ago. We are zone 8A and have recently had low 20's and teens for night temps. These girls are in full winter coat (on planted winter pasture).
Bad hair days are nutritional. Some of my older bucks used to get 4 inches of hair but it all lay softly.
Hope this helps convince you to look at your nutrition program.
Lee

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Respectfully for your consideration....Janie-I have to tell you that I feel that a coat like that- dull and burned looking is not 'perfectly healthy' ever. Winter hair should still shine. Curly is far different that haywire. Directional growth should still lay down.
I would suggest that that a line of goats exhibiting that trait just needs more particular care in the hair and skin department. It is just like people. All different in our uses of our nutrition.
Just because a particular nutrient is offered and available does not mean they are capable of using it properly. You should try tweaking those animals beyond what you do for the main herd. I certainly would enjoy really trying work on them for all good hair days! 

Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Dawn, what you will see is that if you continue to bolus and use your minerals, her hair coat won't look like this next year. I would also, because of where the abscess is located, have the exude tested...if you can not afford to I would isolate her until it resolves, in an area you don't have animals in, ever. Once it has burst and is completely healed it's safe for her to go back into the herd. Abscess like this can go from small to super large and bursting very quickly, make sure you spend a lot of time when hair is long like this out in the herd feeling the lymph gland areas. Been through this myself, and you can keep it from every contaminating your herd and place if you stay on top of the abscess. We had them surgically removed (any place around the jugular my vet removed, I did the rest). Nothin freaks me out more than abcess, and yes it can be something else, just not a normal spot for something else. Most something elses are on the head, neck and behind point of elbow from does rubbing or putting their heads through things that give them splinters etc...


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Just wanted to give my two cents, I agree the coat looks mineral deficient. It can be hard and take a long time to figure out just what your herd needs. I have a buck who has wavy longer hair, but it's silky and shiny. He even has red areas (he's black) but it's not a rusty red, it's like a maroon red. I think it's normal as he's bolused and all. It doesn't feel like deficient hair. Goat hair should feel nice to the touch. I have a doe that felt like she had chalk dust in her hair yuck! Now it's soft. Another doe had long rusty tipped hair that was fairly long and curled away from her body. When I have her copper right, she is jet black and looks like she was dipped in oil. Right now she's kind of in between, hair lays flat but not glossy or all black like it should be. I changed their loose mineral and didn't bolus her to see if I needed to or not. She's my canary 

Also, sometimes it takes two or three bolusing cycles before you really see the difference you want. 

And just like people, some of us don't absorb our minerals well or certain problems in the body use them up. So they may need more.


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

thanks everyone for your advice. Sorry if i seemed defensive, I didn't mean to. I will do the things you advise. Any ideas on nutrition? I am feeding them loose minerals from tractor supply, they get 16% horse and foal pellet. The goat feed here isn't so good. Lots of hay and water. Should I start BOSS? I also need to bolus them again just trying to get through the christmas season. what are the best times to bolus?


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

dm9960 said:


> thanks everyone for your advice. Sorry if i seemed defensive, I didn't mean to. I will do the things you advise. Any ideas on nutrition? I am feeding them loose minerals from tractor supply, they get 16% horse and foal pellet. The goat feed here isn't so good. Lots of hay and water. Should I start BOSS? I also need to bolus them again just trying to get through the christmas season. what are the best times to bolus?


About a month before you can see they need it :lol

What mineral are you using? Most have iron which takes you backwards as it prevents absorption of copper and zinc and others. It also contributes to metabolic problems. Minerals are all about ratios.


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

http://www.tractorsupply.com/livest...lements/manna-pro-goat-mineral-8-lbs--5099436

this is what I use.


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_library...f2dd1f-98fc-4230-9fa7-9c3395761b51&showText=1

this is the product label


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

That's a better quality mineral than most. It does have two forms of iron in the ingredients with no analysis of how much is in the ration. I can say, in my area, it would not be enough copper even without the iron. My mineral right now has over 3,000 ppm copper and still isn't' enough with bolusing. This mineral does have some iron, I don't know how much as it's not shown in the analysis like yours. It's not ideal but it's what I have right now.


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

so i should stick with this mineral? In a couple weeks I plan to copper bolus again.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Dawn I would like to let you know what I have started doing with copper bolusing so maybe for a very needy animal you could try it. Most people bolus using the dosage recommended by Joyce Lazarro's research of 1 gram per 22lbs body weight every 6 months. I am dosing at half that rate every 90 days to keep levels more constant. I really disliked that I could tell they were 'running out' of the slow feed copper in the bolus about a month before time to do it if I stayed on that 6 month interval. This is more than just looks but also relates to feed conversion and ease of keeping body condition stable during lactation and parasite resistance and more. So perhaps consider bolusing more frequently at shorter intervals until you get this girl lookin spiffy! It certainly worked for my troublesome ones. She will benefit from it during the last of her gestation especially since she is showing you her stress with the abcess. Can you move it around or is it firmly anchored?
Good luck and keep us updated on what you find out about the cause. 

Lee


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well I have to jump in and defend Janie and Tim they both have awsome herds and healthy goats. Yes I have seen them and long curly hair doesn't necessarily mean bad health. However with your goat having a lump like this it is imparative as Vicki stated to issolate her and get her to a vet. As for your feed make sure it doesn't have a lot of molasses in it.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> I have to jump in and defend Janie and Tim


I certainly wish and hope people would stop seeing sharing information as bashing.
No one was insulting Janie or Tim or their goats.
I personally was trying to help with information I have accumulated the hard way.
Living it.

One more time- A goat with a haywire coat is not a goat with curly hair. A goat with a poor coat has needs that are not being met. This animal does not have curly hair. It has burnt dull haywire hair. This is nutritional.

Lee


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

thanks for your advice, Lee. I really appreciate it. I will try the bolus schedule you suggest, it's a great idea.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

lee, i never heard that called haywire, its a perfect description!

in your experience-or from others who have done it- how long does it take to see changes? i am assuming its only going to be new hair that changes color, as once its out of the follicle, i didn't think hair color can change (absent help from Miss Clairol, that is!) just wondering if the texture and "lay" of the coat changes before a new coat comes in. 

the fat in BOSS is great for coat/skin health IMO- but I think the best is the Omega 3 fatty acids. Flax will help with that. A bid bag of FLAX might be a little expensive to trial, a bottle of flax oil from the fridge at the health food store might be a better way to trial it- use a tsp (start with a a half for a week or so then go up) on her feed daily. This is just to help until the correction from new or changing mineral takes effect, NOT in place of it! And adding any fat to feed is not a situation where "More is better"! start low and let the rumen flora adjust to it. 

just a thought...


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

In my experience about 4-6 weeks. It starts from the front of the animal and moves back. So first it's head, then neck, shoulders on back, pretty cool. 

My cow I just got had real dry teats and the previous owner was keeping bag balm on them. After about two weeks here (and I wasn't using bag balm) new pinker softer skin came in. Here she is getting a lot of copper and zinc in her loose mineral. In the previous home she had a red mineral block.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't know how long it takes because ours always coincided with shaving it all off, the new hair that grew in was simply not fried looking like this, like a bad perm, once on our minerals and feeding program. Back in the day my Easy Stream buck Eric had the very typical POTF hair....how ironic to find out later that it was from feeding high protein sweet feeds, grass hay, no forms of calcium but what was found in the minerals, add all that to the problems with iron in our water, and zinc coated water troughs....Eric's hair coat was sparse and what he did have was urine scalded and pigwirey. A very well known breeder took on this 'coat' on nubian talk....when asked she also fed the very high protein sweet horse feeds and no alfalfa.

Yes the bloodlines carry wavy hair, with the Nubian breed standard being "The hair is short, fine and glossy." Wavy or straight is fine. You can see quickly that there is a problem with this coat.


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

thank you so much everyone! the bump was a splinter infection. I have also ordered more copasure, etc and will be working on your suggestions as soon as it is delivered. again, thank you so much! I will definitely take pics as we go so I can show you all the improvements!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Fantastic! That is great news. You must be so relieved. 
Thanks for the update. 
Lee


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

That's super, just a splinter. 
It took a year for me to be happy with my goats coats. I didn't do any shaving to see how long it would take. It wasn't until late July that it all shed out even, with our weather here in 2010. Then their coats were awesome. I know Ivomec Plus really helped.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

This is Hershey. She needed copper (and treatment for cocci)










This is Hershey a few months later










It is amazing what copper along with a good management program can do to a goat. I atribute this goats turn around completely to this forum. Without Vicky's advice, I am not sure we would have conquered the cocci. Without this forum, I would not have known about the copper and such that she needed.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Lee, I had been wondering about doing that, glad to see you trying it with good results. My problem is that with 3 or 4 capsules, sometimes they would spit out one or two because I can't seem to get all of them down far enough. If I were doing less, I think I'd be less likely to lose a capsule, and I also don't like them running low on copper before we re-bolus.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Anita, Anita...Anita you do horse feet for a living..."I don't want to hurt them by trying to trim feet...I can't get the feet short enough" "She is so uncomfortable standing on 3 legs" I am sure you hear everything when how simple is it for you? The same for bolusing, to let new people think someone with over 1400 posts and who is a farrier can't put a simple bolus down the throat...they will never try! If they spit it out you didn't get it past the tongue, it has to go in the throat, and it doesn't hurt them  V


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

A large glob of peanut butter in the end of the bolus gun helps. They get so busy trying to swallow the peanut butter they forget to worry about the boluses.


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

Hershey is beautiful!!!!
thank you all so so much!! I can't wait to show you all my great after pics!!


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## natty threads (Dec 15, 2010)

buckrun said:


> It is very common for infected goats that are copper deficient to show signs of active abscess.
> The coat on your animal indicates serious deficiency and or parasite load.
> If the rest of your herd looks this way they need a good loose mineral all the time with multiple forms of copper and they need to be bolused. Florida also has cobalt deficiency which can contribute to health issues. Maybe ask Cathy at Tallabred on here about Florida management.
> Lee


I was going for parasite load too, especially with the "hooks" on the hair ends.

Does a copper deficiency also cause those hooks, or is it the general dullness- the "stare"- that tells you that?

Thank-you.

Bless up.


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## natty threads (Dec 15, 2010)

I have seen horses' coats recover virtually overnight-

not really, but a deworming can sometimes turn a coat around within days.

Amazing.

Bless.


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

what do you mean by 'hooks'? and what kind of parasite does this?


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Hooks = hookworms


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

LOL, I can trim 15 horses in a day but I can't split a single piece of wood. Bolusing is EASY!!!! I just don't know why my does keep spitting those things back out at me!! They wait 5 minutes...I think they've swollowed..and then I hear crunch, crunch, crunch, or see a white capsule on the ground.......Oh, I can't dig a post hole either, and I bought a brand new chainsaw 10 years ago and never could get it started! 

bolusing is easy easy easy easy...and easy


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## mathewsfive (May 2, 2010)

Is the 90 days bolus what you still do with your healthy does as well?? I have 2 that are really healthy and shinny, but I am still new at it all.... Luckily I have a really WONDERFUL goat mentor (Jana) :biggrin but would like to know as much as I can about every ones ideas.


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

try holding their mouth shut with one hand and tickle their throat with the other, this is to make them swallow.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Hello Jessica- I do this for the whole herd because it has rid me of that time frame when you can see they are deficient between 6 month doses. I hope you will read all the info on copper bolusing archived here and monitor your herd health for awhile before deciding what is right for your animals. This is me experimenting with mine and you will have to make your own decisions after evaluating the needs of your animals. I am pleased with it but I also know someone who gives the whole calf bolus once a year and is pleased too so... since situations and animals can vary so widely this makes it important for you to take notes on your management and all the factors affecting your herd health over time and then see if change is needed. (that is kinda like lawyer talk  )
Lee


Anita :laughcry
How on earth can you bend over that long?


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## dm9960 (Mar 23, 2010)

oh dear, now I'm confused. I thought goats don't get hookworms. I worm my goats with cydectin and pyrantal pamoate. should I be doing something else?


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Jessica, 

I am totally switching to Lee's plan for a year or so. Most of the does I got were purchased elsewhere in herds that do not bolus and I can usually see the defficiency signs about a month before the next dose is due. I think they will benefit from a steady level of the copper in their system. 

I am also looking into doing some blood tests done on selenium defficiency, with our extremely high iron in soil and water to see if I need to improve that. 

Glad you are on here asking questions  Lots of great info. 

Jana


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

We have to Copper bolus more here. Our bigger bucks get two full capsules (one at a time) a year.
Our does get smaller boluses three to four times a year, except Psyche..she gets a full bolus two to three times a year. Kids around here are showing signs of copper deficiency three months after birth. So we obviously STILL do not have the appropriate amounts coming from their dams.

Jana-talk to Pav. He is helping us with selenium deficiency. We are doing an experiment with our three older girls. Selenium pellets, given as a bolus, to two of them and BoSe to one. We are hoping for more "Up and at'em" kids. Each spring we have kids born that need BoSe in large doses. It would be nice NOT to have them born weak muscled or contracted in the pasterns.

Tam


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Caprine Beings said:


> It would be nice NOT to have them born weak muscled or contracted in the pasterns.
> 
> Tam


What does "contracted in the pasterns" look like.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Goats don't get hookworms, they get haemoncous, which has eggs that look like hookworms or your pet vets wouldn't be diagnosing them as such over and over.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

MF-Alpines said:


> Caprine Beings said:
> 
> 
> > It would be nice NOT to have them born weak muscled or contracted in the pasterns.
> ...


They will be kind of knuckled over.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Tammy, 

thanks. Thankfully we have no issues in kids but somewhat sluggish labors and past due FF in our area. It is not calcium intake as they are on free choice 17% alfalfa pellets and consume 50lbs a day easily but I am wondering if mineral imbalance is causing the calcium not being utilized correctly. I will pm Pav - thanks for the tip. 

Jana


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