# Bad back feet



## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Hi all,
I have a question about feet... I have a friend with young doe whose back feet/pasterns have gone really bad. (see attached pictures) She is not even a year old yet. I have never seen this in any of her relatives (including dam, sire, grandparents, full siblings, aunt or uncles). I know it can be genetic, but are there other reasons feet can go bad like this? I know bad hoof trimming can, but it sounds and looks like this lady has kept up on the hoof trimming. I am just trying to figure out if there is a way to help this doeling with diet or something. Poor thing! It is just her back feet - her front hooves look fine.

Ideas???


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I do know some does have selenium issues, Vit A and D issue. These would have to be severe deficiencies though.
Tam


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Could she have foundered? Perhaps you could get pictures with the hair trimmed off.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

I will send her to this site so she can help answer questions. I'll see if I can get pictures with the hair trimmed off.

It just seesms odd to me. This is a doeling who was born here last spring. Her dam has slightly longer pasterns, but not bad at all (and her feet are perfectly normal). I retained this doeling's littermate sister and her feet are good. The sire has fine feet and nothing like this anywhere in his background either. The other doeling I sold this lady doesn't seem to be having any issues with her feet. I suppose it could be something that is way back there genetically that just popped up now. Just kind of grasping at straws as it seems pretty extreme for not being in her bloodline that I know of. Keep thowing ideas out - maybe we can figure it out!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

It does remind me of photos I've seen of foundered horses.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Well, she has fan shaped growth rings which, at least in horses, is caused by laminitis. The wall at the toe has more stress than at the heel and on a microscopic level, attaches and detaches making the wall "squish" up and appear to grow slower than at the heel. 

If the hair was trimmed, you could see better what is what.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I am by no-means an expert so take my comments with a grain of salt.

Trimming the hair will certainly help, but to me, it looks like they were cut at the wrong angle. It looks like the angle at the top of the hoof slants backwards (not just the feet) such that if she lets them grow and only trims the heel, it will eventually even out.

I'm interested in this, as well, as I have one doeling that seems to be on her way to this, but I was thinking that it's my husband's trim job.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Looks foundered to me too, but DANG look at how strong those pasterns are to still be holding up with that kind of stress!

Wouldn't it be interesting to see a hoof x-ray on this girl?


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yes, X rays would be super helpful and tell the story.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Yes, I thought the pasterns looked good, too.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's obvious a fresh trimming job. It looks like feet that have never been trimmed and then hacked off at the wrong angle for how the does young bones grew. It's a horrid hoof trimming job, and you can see the damage to the pastern from her not being trimmed.

She needs to wrap her pasterns, give her bose, start trimming her feet every 3 weeks or so and maybe she won't over extend that pastern or hyper extend the phalanges, bones in the two toes, and ruin her feet forever.

I got a buck home in this kind of condition, his was his front feet, he is still not 100% at 3 months worth of trimmings. Vicki


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I was amazed that she was even up at all on those pasterns! Heck would have expected her dewclaws to be on the ground with the way those feet look.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh she will be Tracy, give her time!

Think about wearing shoes from birth with low heels, with platforms under your toes...then one day someone whacks off your toes and puts you in stiletto heels, you would be doing a lot more than just rocking back on your heels.

It is the biggest peeve I have, feet, if you can't trim feet and can't afford someone to do it for you, get rid of the goats! Vicki


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I really don't understand how someone can mess it up like this. I trim horse hooves; this is a piece of cake by comparison. Are some people afraid to trim back heel tissue? Are they trimming overgrown wall only?


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I have a doe that I got at almost a year old and her toes kinda looked like this. Not to this extent--I don't recall her rocking back, but her toes pointed *up* a bit. It makes sense now, cuz last month when I was trimming hooves, I got done with her and thought to myself 'what beautiful feet you have...wait...what happened to the pointy toes?' She's been here a year.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Denise you can always tell when goats feet have been hacked off like this, just recently from the length of the hair. You can see that when her foot was pulled up and trimmed flat like she should be walking on them, that the hair is actually longer than the hoof is......they then sat the foot back down on the ground/milkstand and she was standing on her heels, in the same position she grew up with, and why her tendons have to stretch to be able for her to even walk on normally trimmed feet. You can see the angle of the hoof trim is normal....her feet were just so grossly over grown is the problem. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

So what's the fix? How should they be trimmed in future trimmings to correct the problem?


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Are there other things that cause them to rock back on their heels? Structural reasons beyond management?


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Even some of the worst feet in the world won't get to looking this bad if trimmed properly and regularly. I think goats feet can sometimes be a little more complicated to figure out than horses...without that weight that a horse has they can get so far out of whack because they just keep growing and growing. Having them in a small area with soft, dirty ground or not getting enough exercise makes it worse. And I bet those feet are full of fungus, hoof rot, nasty stuff, etc. I agree with Vicki that this is a fresh trim job, and it shouldn't reflect badly on your breeding. A pair of hoof clippers probably won't do the whole job, they also need a sharp rasp and hoof knife to lower those heels a little at a time. I don't like taking big chunks of heel off with the nippers, so I use the rasp and stop at pink unless I think it's old bruising and then I'll go right through it. 

Every week is not too often to trim these feet.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

smithurmonds said:


> Are there other things that cause them to rock back on their heels? Structural reasons beyond management?


I had a doe that would rock back and out on her back feet when heavy bred. Badly. Her feet were fine any other time--it was just that 4 wks or so before kidding. I would trim her feet WEEKLY to take off any excess toe that was growing and (now, Vicki has *slapped my hand* for this  but..) I would give her extra BoSe. I didn't the first year, cuz it wasn't til after she kidded that I figured it out. Her 2nd freshening her feet didn't rock out as bad with BoSe every 2 wks the last month. Her 3rd freshening her feet were PERFECT with BoSe every week. (Vicki's gonna knock me out!!) I know BoSe is suppose to stay in the system 21 days, and I don't have *testing* to prove the extra was needed. But going from rocking to an extreme and having twins that would not suck with FKS on her 1st freshening, to standing on perfect feet and having QUADS that hit the bottle like little bulls and were on the lambar in less than 24 hours on her 3rd freshening convinced me. Her first doe kid did this also, though not as badly and I'm watching her 2 yr old FF this year.
I'm sure heredity plays a part and someone else would have to explain the *genetic* reasons, but with good management (trimming, minerals, feed, etc) you can keep the problem to a minimum and breed for better.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

If this is a mini, I'm shocked the feet would get this bad. I go 8 weeks between trimmings and have pushed it longer. Even then it is not an involved job. Mine have had to live on some pretty hard ground though. Hoegger's thinks over feeding corn causes too much hoof growth. I don't know if there is anything to that, but I limit corn for that reason. Dewclaws seem long to me for a yearling, maybe she needs to cut back on corn?


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Yes, she is a MiniNubian. Too much corn... Hmm, interesting. She is sending me her grain recipe and the amount she feeds. 

I have asked about hoof trimming, but I really don't think that is the problem as the other hooves are fine and the other doeling is also fine. Also, she only has a handful of animals and usually you see the waaaay overgrown hooves in larger herds - these girls are this lady's babies, so she is always keeping an eye on them. I will let you know what I hear back about trimming. I have seen hooves that look just like this after growing way too long and then being trimmed - just went through that with a (different) friend when I trimmed hooves for him - wow! I had never seen hooves that bad.


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I would say it has something to do with the way she was trimmed also. Could be she trimmed her too short, making her toes painful to stand on so she has rocked back to relieve the pressure.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I have goats that I got as bred, about to freshen for the 2nd time nearly two-year olds who had NEVER had a hoof trimming in their lives and their feet did not look like this. They had waaaay overgrown hoof walls, curled under and stuff, but nothing like this picture. Weird.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Stacey, overgrown hooves don't always look like this, but they can after they are trimmed if they were overgrown in a certain way.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I just meant that they weren't ever rocked back, in spite of having very long toes that required a lot of trimming.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

so how do you trim them to make them right ?

Looks like the toes were too long and so they cut them off and then they rounded the toe and part going back to the heel to even out the toe cut ,cut the heel pad and this makes the hoof too short but when the hoof was pulled up to trim and the trimming was done that IF the doe would stand right the hoof would look right ....... so is it her pastern problem ???

How do you fix this ? What would you trim off in 3 weeks ? as I have had a rocker hoof before


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Does anyone have pictures or drawings to show how or where you would trim on these hooves to help them? 

I just heard back from the lady and she trims every 3 weeks (so the hooves never got grossly overgrown). She said 'I trim everyone's feet about every three weeks. I do struggle with how much to take off the heel. Laneie's heel seems to be the only one I really don't know what to do with, it does seem extra long.' She is going to have her vet look at it tomorrow. The feet are not hot to the touch and she runs around like they don't hurt her (yet). I am wondering if the feed is too rich... The other goats are fine, but maybe it is too much for this doe. Here is the ration they are on:

200# rolled corn
20# soy
50# crimped oats
50# high energy pellets 18%
100# flaked soy
3# feed grade urea
5# red salt
13# 3-2
3# decox
2# magox
1/2# selenium
1/2# A, D & E 
53# molasses

Best I can figure that's about a 20% protein feed (I'm not sure what 3-2 is). Seems a bit high for dry animals to me. They are only getting 2oz 2x per day. What do you all think? Could this have contributed at least? 

And again, if anyone has any drawings, pictures, good verbal instructions, on how to trim these hooves to correct them, that would be GREATLY appreciated.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Alot of corn! Here's were Hoegger's talks about the corn:
http://hoeggergoatsupply.com/info/nutrition.shtml

Corn is candy. But they are only getting basically 1/2 a cup. That's not much of anything, so I dunno.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Eliya, if we could get better pictures, with the hair trimmed away, and perhaps underside views of the feet we could better help with pics of how to trim. I personally just can't see good enough.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

I would trim the heel. The toes look like they have been cut back enough - don't cut any of the toe but the heel tissue needs trimming back.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Tim Pruitt said:


> I would trim the heel. The toes look like they have been cut back enough - don't cut any of the toe but the heel tissue needs trimming back.


That's what I was thinking, Tim. Good to know as I said in my previous post that we have one, on one hoof, that is similar (although not to this extent). I think my husband just gets carried away.


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

You might also want to let her know about the urea. According to Hoegger's it is toxic to goats.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I just did a lot of reading about what causes this since after trimming my doelings hooves, she was rocked back on one of her heels. And with her anyway, it was that I left the heel too tall. Trimming the heel got her upright again. In her case it was not from going too long between trimmings but just incorrect trimming.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Ashley said:


> Eliya, if we could get better pictures, with the hair trimmed away, and perhaps underside views of the feet we could better help with pics of how to trim. I personally just can't see good enough.


She is going to trim the hair and get another picture for us.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

I have told her the urea was nasty and that there is too much sugar in the ration with that much corn and molasses. I recommended putting them on straight oats until we can figure a better ration for them. It is just two yearling does and two yearling bucks. IMHO, they don't really need any grain at this point, but oats would be better than this mix.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

So what's the fix?
...........................

If you look at the hoof only, it is now trimmed square, it is flat with the coronary band....now look at the leg, pastern, toes.....they are in their old position. Young kids legs and bones are very soft and maliable, they grow in the direction in which hooves give them support...and sorry I have been around animals my whole life, goats for 25 and 1/2 years and this kid did not have it's feet trimmed every 3 weeks. I do not mean to offend.

The fix is time, the pasterns and foot need to be braced so it doesn't keep hyper extending this foot and pastern to the heel.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Well, I believe that she is telling the truth about trimming every 3 weeks. I know that feet can look like that with no hoof trimming, but have also been hearing from people who have had goats start to go this direction with regular hoof trimming, but not taking enough off the heel for that particular goat.

I do think that bracing the pasterns and foot is a good idea. And getting her off that feed.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Would you use vet wrap for bracing or something more substantial?


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Good news! The vet came out to their farm and trimmed the doeling's hooves while she was there. The hoof wall had been trimmed every 3 weeks, but nothing was taken off the heel so it grew too long. The other goats were ok as their heels didn't grow much, but this doeling's heels grew faster. The vet trimmed the heels down and got the goat walking flat on her feet again. I have attached a picture. Hard to believe it is the same pair of feet. They still may need some work, but they sure look a lot better!

I tried to post both the before and after picture, but it's only letting me attach one, so here's the after picture. I guess you'll have to go back to the 1st post if you want to see the before picture...


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

That makes sense. I do lop off a chunk of heel every time with mine. Sounds like a helpful vet!


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Yeah, I'm glad she had someone who could actually come out and look at them in person. It's hard to help when you are halfway across the country! She said this vet has been great. Not all of us have been able to find a good goat vet. I don't think any of the vets in my area would even know what a goat's hoof is supposed to look like!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Awesome! I was wondering if there was more heel hiding under that hair!


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Wonderful!


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

Looks much better!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Well, at least they know what they need to do from now on! Thanks so much for the post, it has been educational!


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

wow ! I am impressed. It was hard to see tho because of the fur .


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