# Question for Consideration



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Was talking to a friend today and got me wondering what the general consensus on the subject is. 
If you raise Saanens, and had a Sable kid born from a SaanenxSaanen pairing, would you be appalled or ok with it?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2012)

I would be ok with it, a Saanan is a Saanan.. but not to all...
Barb


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

I have Saanens and would love a sable. But I have friends that are saanen breeders who would not want it and they get rid of them quickly.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I would assume since it would prove your buck has colored genetics making him less valuable as a saanen stud, that not many colored kids make it out of saanen herds, nor even the admitting that they were even born. 

We heard lots of stories in committee when ADGA worked on getting sabels...FINALLY...out of the recorded grade book where they were stashed and forgotten for generations. Vicki


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Why were Sables made a seperate breed? Eitger eary, I am thankful they are out of the recorded grade book. It just seems silly to me to be upset about a perfectly good animal on account of color. I for one plan to breed some of my sables to saanen bucks and vice versa in hopes to bring some improvement to the breed (Sable) in general. Saanens originally had color with them, it wasn't until someone decided they should be all white that we started this whole deal, lol. I dunno know, was just curious what others thought.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

They were in recorded grade exactly for that reason, there was no place else to put them when the Saanen breed standard was set. They were to be allowed to stay and breed in Recorded Grade but I know at local shows to me, they would not give them a Recorded Grade buck class and would not let them show in AOP. 

I am not sure why Sables would need to be improved unless they are being purchased out of very poor quality Sannens. Sannens certainly do not need to be improved, like say Oberhasli. Make more quality Sables, yes, but improve them?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

It does seem so silly.


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

I see alot of Sables out there that aren't that great. There are a LOT of high quality Saanen goats out there, but I find that the amount of high quality Sables are lacking. I guess what I said didn't come out right, lol. For instance, one of my Sable does is beautiful. Long, level, wide, beautiful long wide rump, good rear leg angulation, nice straight front legs, good depth, etc. She has a strong medial, nice plumb teats, easy to milk... terrible attachments. So, I'm breeding her to bucks with amazing attachments to improve that. I see that alot in Sables, they have awesome udders, but poor conformation, etc. I think the breed as a whole could use some better quality animals added to the gene pool. Does that make sense? I'm rambling I think. :crazy


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Ooooo the battles that took place all those years ago on the yahoo goat talk lists about sables. In the end it fell on AlpineTalk because those sables resembled Alpines. It was an ugleeeee battle and it was, "No holds barred" kicking and screaming to make sables a separate breed. 

Rachel I understand what you are saying about the need for new genetics, just wondering, how limited is the gene pool for Sables?


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

For Sables in general or for top quality Sables? Lol
Hmm, I thought I had seen a break down of how many animals of each breed was registered with ADGA, but can't find it now.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I like Sables. The one and only Saanen I've ever owned was a color carrier. I once bred her back to her sire and she had a Sable buckling. That was before Sables were recognized in ADGA so I wethered him. I'm sure he would have proven to be a quality Sable as his dam and granddam were champions.
As for the seperate registries for Sables and Saanens, I sometimes wonder if that will go the way of the Himalayan cat. Years ago the Himalayan cat was developed by crossing the Siamese and Persian to produce a cat with the Persian body type and long hair with Siamese coloring. For years the Persian and Himalayan were seperate breeds, but you could cross a Himalayan with a Persian and any colorpoint cats could be registered as Himalayans. Solid color cats could not be registered. Finally, as the breed was refined, the breeds were combined in the CFA registry and all cats are Persians. Thus, colored kittens out of the breedings can now be registered and shown. I'm hoping that as the Sable breed becomes more popular, this will happen in ADGA as well.


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

I had the bright idea to rasie Sables along with my Saanens. My beautiful sable buck threw 100% white offspring. No sables and no saanens either. just grades. And that was in 2 herds so I guess neither of us have any does that are color carriers.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

If you breed the doelings out of this buck back to him, there is a good chance that you will get Sables. I'm not sure what ADGA would say about the Sable doelings out of such a breeding, but even if they consider this first cross grades, if you get another Sable buck to use, you should be able to breed up to American Sables. The one good thing about ADGA compared to the CFA is that you can record and show female offspring of such breedings and produce champions.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

If I had Saanens and produced a sable i would be tickled to death! I love the sables.


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

For those of you with more ADGA knowledge thatn I do, on the Sable breeding page on the ADGA website, it says that the Sable herdbook is open, and that Sables can be bred up to Purebred from American. I've had other people tell me no you can't do that. Anyone know the actual truth? I need to just call them one of these days I suppose.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm guessing you should go by what ADGA tells you, and not what random people seem to think. LOL.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

I breed Saanens, and I wouldn't want a sable.


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

goatkid said:


> If you breed the doelings out of this buck back to him, there is a good chance that you will get Sables. I'm not sure what ADGA would say about the Sable doelings out of such a breeding, but even if they consider this first cross grades, if you get another Sable buck to use, you should be able to breed up to American Sables. The one good thing about ADGA compared to the CFA is that you can record and show female offspring of such breedings and produce champions.


Well, I did not get any doelings so all I got was cabrito but the other herd ended up with two white grade doelings so maybe she will want to do that.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I just don't get this stuff sometimes. :lol Like how some will refuse to register a purebred so it gets chalked up as a grade somewhere else down the line. Huh? It is still a purebred. Now just a mislabeled goat. It hasn't really been removed from the gene pool unless it is destroyed. If a herd book is closed, then ok it can't get back in. But if it was bad enough to be culled from the herd book, then why send those faulty genes out into the larger gene pool? And why does ADGA record grades as having unknown sires, when it is known who the sires are because they aren't willing to have grade bucks on record?

The problem is what people say that want and what they are willing to do are two different things. If folks really wanted saanans to only be white, they'd destroy any sables born and never repete the breedings that produced them. The two different breed thing is hogwash to me. :lol


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Angie that is the point....first sables were being destroyed, although a few die hard saanen colored breeders kept at it, trying to follow the rediculous rules ADGA had for sables. 

Second you described your ethics for your farm, and what you will find is that you can't make rules to govern other peoples ethics. If a doeling here is born with what I think is ears are to short, but they are pendulous, I will sell her as a grade. I will even hold her purebred paperwork to register doelings out of her if they, for me, meet a better breed standard. She still can be shown, she still can have kids and she still can milk, so why kill her? But them are my ethics


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I don't think what I was describing was ethics. Not a right or wrong, just some things other people do that doesn't seem logical to me. I really don't know how anything productive gets done when people have such vastly different feelings about how to handle different situations. :lol


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You mean like the logic in the mini's breed standards  Vicki


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Yup :lol But at least when they are loose you are free to do what you like!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I have Saanens (love 'em) and i have used a buck that I found out threw some color (a reddish, greyish haze on a further white kid). Oddly enough almost all the kids were born white, so i registered the first one Saanen, and about three weeks after her paperwork came in she started coloring up. Later I got some white kids with a dark grey dorsal stripe out of that buck. Hmmm, I dfon't use him anymore and I just don't register the kids at all, just keep them for milking, because they are great does, just not white enough to be Saanen! Breed standard is breed standard, so I'm okay with the fact that I can't register these kids Saanen, but I refuse to register them Sable, because then when they get white kids (likely, since, after all, they are pure Saanen), I'd have to register those Recorded Grade instead of Sable. That just makes me mad. I'm registering an animal that looks like a Saanen as an Recorded Grade, and I know she has 'colored genes' behind her. let's say her offspring is white and then eventually a ferw generations dow, I can stick them right back into the Saanen registry, knowingly bringing the risk of color back in the breed. That makes no sense!! I think that is unethical to say the least, even though it's totally allowed, and also just not well thought out. 

That's my two cents. I'm lucky I milk, because that gives me the opportunity to keep these beautiful non-white Saanens and milk them (I only have two of them now, one still definitely has a colored haze over her, and the other one is actually white right now, but she wasn't a few months back.) I realize for those who have goats just for show it's not that easy. I just think by rotating animals from recorded grade back to the Saanen book, you risk bringing an unwanted trait back in your breed


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

I wish they would just be considered one breed now, but I guess I should just be happy it is the way it is, lol.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

This has been a fun thread for me to read.
We were fortunate that when we moved to Arkansas from California and left our Cadillac Nubians behind we were close to a Saanen dairy that pretty much gave away Sables at birth. We were young and poor and it was just too fantastic to be true. I felt like someone made this puzzling rule just for me. To be able to work with such lovely stock on almost no money was just the best stroke of luck for a young family. We shook our heads smiling all the while we milked these fantastic culls 
Lee


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

That's awesome Lee. 

For those wondering about numbers, I finally remembered where I found them, lol. 
This is a link to the 2010 report.. if the 2011 report is out yet, please let me know.  
http://www.adga.org/pages_adga/memberdirectory/2011/MD_2011_REPORT.pdf

If you can't see that, in a nutshell here is what the numbers look like: 
Alpine - 6623
La Mancha - 4640
Nigerian Dwarf - 4585
Nubian - 10843
Oberhasli - 1729
Saanen - 3481
*Sable - 265*
Toggenburg - 2070

Those numbers represent all registrations in 2010. Purebred, American, etc. Just going off registrations, you can see that obviously, Sables have far less than any other breeds.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

I thought that sables had to come from sables, and saanens had to come from saanens. I'm going to add sables to my herd one of these days.


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Here is how I understand it...

Saanen x Saanen = Color offspring = Sable
Saanen x Sable = Color Offspring = Sable
Saanen x Sable = White Offspring = Experimental

http://www.adga.org/index.php?optio...artregsable&catid=909:catadgagoats&Itemid=131


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

H Diamond Farms said:


> Here is how I understand it...
> 
> Saanen x Saanen = Color offspring = Sable
> Saanen x Sable = Color Offspring = Sable
> ...


No, Saanen x Sable is always Experimental no matter what color offspring you get, since you are crossing two breeds. But SablexSable=white offspring=Recorded Grade and THAT is the problem! Just makes no sense to me.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Not a lot of it makes sense, Marion. IMO, they need to re-do the breed standard and just make it one breed that can be either white or colored. End of problems. :rofl :biggrin


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Are the rules the same with AGS? I tried looking it up, but this was all I found:

"The Sable is a color variation of the Saanen breed. Sables can be the offspring of Sables or Saanens. Other than color, this breed is identical to the Saanen. Sables may be any color except solid pale cream or white."2


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Trysta said:


> No, Saanen x Sable is always Experimental no matter what color offspring you get, since you are crossing two breeds. But SablexSable=white offspring=Recorded Grade and THAT is the problem! Just makes no sense to me.


Sorry, that is wrong. Saanen X Sable and you get a colored kid = Sable. If white, then you get Experimental.


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## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

I know from talking to someone at ADGA about adding Guernseys that ADGA is not very happy with the current ADGA registered Sables and their registration numbers which is why they are being super cautious of any new breed coming in to ADGA. Apparently the Sables out there currently are not what ADGA had in mind for the breed when they accepted them. Not sure what ADGA did have in mind for them just know they are not pleased.

Also know some Alpine breeders who don't have much nice to say about the breed. Guess I can see their point since they do look like Alpines. There is a goofy lady that brings her unregistered goats to our county fair and one year her doe was an Alpine and the next she was claiming the same doe was a Sable.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

wheytogosaanens said:


> Trysta said:
> 
> 
> > No, Saanen x Sable is always Experimental no matter what color offspring you get, since you are crossing two breeds. But SablexSable=white offspring=Recorded Grade and THAT is the problem! Just makes no sense to me.
> ...


Really?? I don't understand that. If they accepted the Sable as a separate breed, then why am I allowed to cross Saanen and Sable to register Sable? If I cross a Lamancha with Saanen I get no ears, but I'm not allowed to register LaMancha. If you decide to make it a separate breed, then all the rules for separate breeds should apply. Anyway, this is why I decided to keep the two colored Saanen doelings that I had unregistered. They are great, I'll milk 'em, I just won't try to breed Saanen with them! By the way, the funny thing is that the one doeling isn't always colored. She's white now, was born white, but was definitely colored in between!


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

"IMO, they need to re-do the breed standard and just make it one breed that can be either white or colored. End of problems."

Stacey - this has always been my thought as well. If you can breed two animals of one recognized breed together and they produce a kid that because of it's color becomes a member of another breed something just ain't right.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

:yeahthat Completely agree. And don't get me wrong: I love Sables (because I love Saanen!) :lol


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I have seen that in my friend's saanen herd. She had a doeling that was white if shaved, but the hair tips were cream before she shaved her.


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

I agree that something is wrong. My friend that used my sable buck on a couple of her Saanens now has Saanens that aren't Saanens but Experimentals since they turned out white. The sable buck's dam and sire were both Saanens.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

Trysta said:


> wheytogosaanens said:
> 
> 
> > Trysta said:
> ...


--really.
and if you end up with an experimental (white kid) out of that sable x saanen or sable x sable breeding then you have to breed 3 generations of color before being able to register as sable again. 
fun stuff


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

:yeahthat

I know what the rules are....trying to make them make sense is a whole 'nother ball game! :rofl

It is tough to breed Sables with consistent color - especially if you want quality Sables, not just "anything with color". That at least would explain the low numbers of registered Sables.

We have a marvelous Experimental Saanen X Sable doe. Her dam was a very peachy Sable, out of a Black Sable sire and a Saanen doe. I couldn't fined a Sable buck of the calibre of the Saanen bucks that I had available, so I bred Peaches to Des Ruhigestelle Eins. This produced a white Experimental (BTW, I decided just to breed back up to Saanen and call it a day :biggrin). This year, Pizzazz has freshened with an incredible udder - gorgeous with lots of capacity (Peaches was a strong milker too). At 5 weeks fresh, this 2 year old just milked 17 # of milk. :faint She is very happy and is making it look easy. She is long, tall, with great angulation and beautiful shoulders. Still needs a bit of maturity, especially in body capacity, but we are really looking forward to showing her this year. She has always been a favorite of mine, so I will be showing her, not my DD (watch us wrestle at ringside, LOL).

Anyway, just very glad that I bred her back Saanen. And there is no prejudice against Recorded Grades here (too bad her buck kid isn't registerable!) but folks understand it's all Saanen at the end of the day, so if they want Saanen, they don't mind the RG. Not that we want to sell any of Pizzazz's doe kids! :lol


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Trysta said:


> wheytogosaanens said:
> 
> 
> > Trysta said:
> ...


And that is the problem! How are they two seperate breeds, but if bred together can produce one of the two breeds based on the color. 
I don't know what the right answer for ADGA, but this option seems a little confusing.
When people call and ask me Sable questions, I just tell them if your breeding pair has any color in it, pray the kids come out colored.

The deal with the Sables/Alpines... I think part of that problem comes from what I've heard that some folks bred Alpines to Saanens to produce a Sable after so many generations. If you look at some Sable pedigrees, they go back to a Saanen and an Alpine.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

See? Now I have headache.... I guess I'll just stick to not registering my colored Saanens. That way I get to keep them for myself. Don't want to share them anyway


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

I want to raise sables, but I'm hesitant because it just adds risk. Some of the kids I produce are going to be hard to sell potentially. I don't want to have to worry about that. If I was interested in saanens it would be the same thing. The way they have it set up scares people off. The last thing breeders need is more risk. With nubians, I don't have to worry about it. None of my kids are going to be experimental or recorded grade... they'll just be nubian. I don't mess with American nubians for the same reason... it makes things too complicated for me.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Saanens are easy. Almost always (like 98% of the time) you get white kids, all conform to breed standard.

If you do get a Sable, tons of people will want the kid - very marketable. Just sell your Sable kids and you won't get a headache . We have standing orders from those "into" Sables that if our does ever throw a Sable kid, they want dibs.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Oh, I didn't know that. I wish I wanted saanens. I'm a sucker for the breeds with different colors.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

My kids complain that all the Saanens are white, too and that that's boring. But to me they all look different, and they just have the best disposition.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Well, I love all different colors too, but I have to say, all that white does look nice on a green pasture!


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