# supernumerary teats



## toomb (Oct 26, 2007)

can someone please explain the genetics of supernumerary teats to me? is it recessive? as in both parents are carriers? is it an isolated incident? i can't find a definite answer. thanks


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13825254


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't think the data is in for goats. An although true extra teats are heritable, if dam and sire carry these genes than some of their kids will carry these extra teats, where if just one parent carries the gene you will seldom get true extra teats. We also know that older does 10 to 12 will show kids with parrot mouth or extra teats or other genetic problems more often, and in some instances after having normal kids for all the before years, even bred to the same buck or bloodline (old eggs).

Now teat abnormalities, fish teats etc.. I am wondering if there is an environmental aspect to this. 

Having used a doe here on my farm for several breedings, 2 of which was to the same buck because it was such a good breeding, 2 sets of these kids were quads, so 8 kids out of the doe and buck, moved to a new home in which she was once again bred to the same buck (to reproduce my does I have) and one of the daughters has fish tail teats.

Another doe, same thing. Her dam had quints last year here out of the same buck that they now had her bred to that gave them fish teats in another doeling. 

So although I own duplicate breedings of both of this kids in my own herd, 1 more daughter out of the one dam, a half sister to the other, and 5 daughters of this bucks  I have never seen extra teats or any teat abnormalities. In fact the first doe, I have a daughter out of her son and daughter, so she is double bred on the doe who gave them fish teats...certainly if this was heritable I would have seen something in this doe (she isn't due to kid until next month so we shall see in her kids).

I love this buck and doe line so much that I have my own sister of the second doe kidding at my farm, likely today, bred to this buck I sold.

So....am I just the luckiest person in the world this last 6 years breeding these lines together? No genetics ever lined up for me to see this? Or since this same farm had another breed with extra teats out of superior stock, who also have not seen extra teats in their bucks, or the people themselves in these does.... is this something environmental? Vicki


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## toomb (Oct 26, 2007)

thanks vicki and sondra


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I had two different does bred to the same buck a year apart and both does had twin does one of each had an extra teat. This buck is a goner this year.


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## Karen Bailey (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Now teat abnormalities, fish teats etc.. I am wondering if there is an environmental aspect to this.


I think Vicki is on to something - that some teat abnormalities are environmental. I had spur teats show up on two doe kids, not closely related, but born the same year, and only that year. I've always suspected that it might have been caused by using Safeguard to worm the does on the wrong day of gestation, even though Safeguard is touted to be completely safe. Safe yes, there were no big problems or deaths, but I wonder if the presence of even a safe drug at a particular stage of development can have an effect. Best to worm before breeding then wait until after the 100 days bred mark to worm again, especially when we don't know for sure.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2008)

Interesting theory.

However, when it comes to culling the ethical thing to do would be to cull the effected kid and littermates. For example: If the doe kid had extra teats, fish teats, etc. but the buck kid from the same litter did not, the buck kid should still be culled along with the doe kid. 

In my opinion it is the ethical thing to do. If a breeder chooses NOT to cull then at the very least they need to disclose this information to potential buyers.

JMO,
Sara


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## Karen Bailey (Oct 26, 2007)

Exactly right, Sara. On the two I had, one went as an unregistered farm pet, and the other stayed in my herd and produced meat kids. She never passed on that spur teat to any of her kids. She had some really nice milk production, and I've always regretted that she was the end of that line. But you're right, ethically, without knowing 100% that that teat spur was not genetic, they should be culls, and not a problem passed down to another goat raiser.


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

FISHTAIL TEATS! Perfect description! We had 2 kids with those born last year. (Alpine/Boer crosses.) They were both sold, and in trying to describe the problem to the buyers, I called them double-teats... ya know.. one teat with two openings. Thank you for the "fish-tail" description! That is very helpful.


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## toomb (Oct 26, 2007)

Sondra said:


> I had two different does bred to the same buck a year apart and both does had twin does one of each had an extra teat. This buck is a goner this year.


so is it the buck? or doe? or both? will this doe continue to throw kids with extra teats? i have 2 does...a mother and daughter..the mother has freshened twice.none of her kids had this problem. on her first freshening the daughter had twins..one of which had extra teats. i hate to be building a herd on inferior genetics. i'm just really confused and there isn't much information out there. chris


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

can you define supernumerary teats for me?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

toomb said:


> Sondra said:
> 
> 
> > I had two different does bred to the same buck a year apart and both does had twin does one of each had an extra teat. This buck is a goner this year.
> ...


Since both does had kidded before with no problems what so ever and both have kidded this year with no problems and different bucks used on them before and after I am saying it is the buck. He was only used a few times maybe 4 and two of the four had extra teats. So am not taking another chance and he is going to be butchered not sold.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

LeeAnn for me supernummary teats are true extra teats, like a cow, although the 2nd set is usually, in dairy goats smaller, no orifice in most. And this is hereditary. Like Parrot Mouth, when you breed to animals together who have this gene some of your kids will be effected. Especially in Nubian because we came from bad mouths.

For myself fish teats etc.., it has to have something other than a genetic cause to it. Vicki


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

"For myself fish teats etc.., it has to have something other than a genetic cause to it. "

I agree. I believe that it is genetic, but genetic in that when the gene is there those animals are more susceptible to an as-yet-unspecified environmental influence. 

LeeAnne


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:biggrin Another theory...maybe it's the "roll of genes". When 1 of a set of twins has two teats and the other has 3-4...and we all know that the genes are different in each set of twins,triplets,ect... VERY SELDOM to you get identical twins in goats. One is superior to the other.

LOL...unless you take up cloning.??? I'm still mastering AI, ain't going there!
Kaye


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah we do tend to forget that Kaye, it isn't one gene from each parent making each kid... Oh Wise One  Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:rofl eepwall
Kaye


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