# Crossing Nubian Lines



## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

I found a breeder who has flown in a few Lakeshore/Blissberry to Ga and has a buckling that I really feel could make an impact on our herd in a positive way however, I am still learning Nubians, I have learned enough that certain lines do not cross well just not which ones.

My herd consist of Amberwood and Frosty Marvin lines for the most part I have one doe not related who is KASTDEMUR'S and Wilow Run

If you have crossed those lines I would be interested in your input.

Thank you


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## Greylady (Mar 28, 2012)

This is an interesting thread topic. I would be interested to know how you know which lines to cross and which ones not to.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Your Kastdemurs goat may cross well with Blissberry. I know Sara is friends with the Senn family and has purchased goats from them.
I do know that some of the Kastdemurs lines don't cross well with some of Saada lines.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

I know this may be unpopular to say because people are always taking about which lines "cross well" but the reality is that all the large breeders have several different lines and especially when it comes to herd like willow run who had hundreds of goat I think is impossible to make a generic statement like that.

my opinion is your best bet is to look at strengths and weaknesses or focus on an specific attribute you want to breed for and then select sires with that trait.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

And just so know one misinterprets that as a slam against Blissberry let me say that in the a nubian world Sara's herd is one of the one that I admire most. She really does have the combination of excellent production and show that we strive for.

It's just that you can't say for certain whether any one of her "lines" will cross well with yours until you do the breeding and see the results.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Here is my take, and this comes from breeding livestock in general, not Nubians in particular. 

When someone has been breeding for a real long time they are quite naturally going to have really terrific goats. They have spent the time picking and choosing and discarding, so you are going to see some really awesome goats if they have any sort of ability at all. One of the things that is helping them: their lines are "line bred" or some people would say "inbred". My vet used to say: if it works out really well, it's called "line breeding" and if it doesn't work out it's called "inbreeding". 

Think of it this way: all the little alleles are like pieces in a jig saw puzzle. If you have 3 or 4 identical puzzles and throw all the pieces randomly on the floor, you stand a good chance of putting together a beautiful picture. If you have 3 or 4 different puzzles and do the same thing, you *might* not get such a good picture, but that does not mean you won't get a picture, and who knows, it might even be an outstanding picture. However you are going to be helped in making that outstanding picture, by spending some years at it and breeding your strengths in very carefully, from your own or closely related stock. 

You don't want to get too carried away, because line breeding can bring out weaknesses as well as strengths. So you have to carefully choose the parents and weigh the strengths/weaknesses and give it your best guess... and then see what happens. 

I'm doing that very thing with Nubians this year as I am just starting out, so I have goats from 3 herds I admire tremendously and I will just have to see what I get... and then pick out the best, breed the best to the best, discard the ones that are not so great, and keep going. Just you wait - someday, I too will have nice goats! :biggrin


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Some have crossed the K lines with the Marvin lines. Actually Marvin is behind most if not all of the K lines. 

Lakeshore and Blissberry are both heavily bred on K lines.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

I understand line breeding well, I have shown dogs and horses for years. 
I don't know enough on the Nubian lines as I should, quite frankly with the addition to the two new human kids in the past 3 years I find that research is harder to do, and 99% of the time I am just exhausted. Not much of an excuse I know.
The next thing is that this lady raised him on unpasteurized milk and hasnt tested her herd and asking $400 plus me to come pull the blood on her goats and send it off. Knowing that they came from where they did I dont believe there would be a problem but thats a lot of money and time to throw away.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I know Tim has alot more to say about this, but there are types too. Just getting started I decided to just look at lot's of photos and pick out my type. There is a certain look I like best, and I ordered a buck from a herd that had that look. I also looked for certain key strengths that I either wanted to improve or maintain in my herd - I want level rumps, high shoulders, plumb teats, and dairyness. Those things just matter most to me. There is another type that has more exaggerated noses and ears that I love, but I decided overall that's not my type. I still have lots to learn about bloodlines too.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

this kids grand dam is defiantly something I would love to have in my barn shes a SGCH 5*M 90 EEEE I have not seen the dam yet of this boy but I do hope shes as good as her pedigree but of course shes going to be the one that makes or breaks the whole deal. 

Looking at body types there isnt a great deal of difference between the lines that I can see just refinement. I hung out on Nubian talk for a while till the poo slinging started over what i couldnt remember now and thats where I was starting to learn that certain lines may not cross well with others.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

The issue with Nubians is the richness of the gene pool.
There are so many variables not available in other breeds.
Tight line breeding for type is essential or you loose it in a couple of generations. Anyone who has watched the top herds in the nation has watched this happen. 
I have watched over 3 decades while people solidify something fabulous and then loose it with the introduction of one buck line. 
If you want consistency....don't breed Nubians  
Lee


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## cvalley (Apr 15, 2009)

Interesting thread. Pedigrees are a huge part but you should see the dam and sire's structure to bring out the qualities you desire to have/strengthen. Seeing goats in person add another dimension to your vision.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Making time to do the research I think this is an adventure I will be embarking on, I think I will us him over the kids Im keeping this fall and repete the breeding to my original buck as I am really loving the kids being born this year lots of nice looking kids with tons of color, two have every color just about a goat can have, wonder if that would be called a calico? is that even a color to adga? probably will have to call them pied.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Wow, De, the colors sound really cool. You will have to post pictures!


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

well Im getting quite concerned with the mixed signals the breeder is giving me and with those its usually best for me to go on about my business and walk away 
All hope is not lost however thankfully I have one of the best semen guys 10 miles down the road so Im sure I can find something in his magic tank I just hate to use AI on a maiden. With my buck being the grandfather of two out of 5 of my does and then sire to this years kids I dont think I want to breed that tight.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Follow your gut, the perfect guy is out there. Don't settle.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Either look for a buck with something "in" and then something "out" when looking for a new herdsire or get a buck that is heavily linebred on excellent animals of the style of Nubian that you like. Using a line bred buck that is an outcross to your herd can work great as his genetics are strong enough to stamp his traits on his offspring.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> If you want consistency....don't breed Nubians
> Lee


Exactly! :laughcry Tim is a tremendous asset to these questions!

Breed what you like. You have to feed them every day. Most of my breeding mistakes I made when I didn't have confidence in my eye and what I like. Though I have found lines that do not as cross well with mine, that can simply be the result of a bad gene match up. Just because a buck doesn't work in one herd, doesn't mean he won't have outstanding daughters in another...and it might not all be bloodline, it might be the quality fo the does he is bred to, also.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

I know we are going to hand on to our old guy I had for sale, his kids are just too pretty, level and he does so much for udder conformation and now we are looking at a buck I really liked but thought was a bit above my price range and wouldnt think he would have been for sale. Kinda bites because he is all white (the one thing I dont like about saanens) but i could get over it


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