# Need help from the experts getting started



## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

So here are the new goats (image). The little buck George is Oberhasli. The 7 girls are mostly Lamanchas with a little bit of other stuff mixed in possibly Alpine (or Saanen/Nubian). Please feel free to comment on anything I might be overlooking or doing wrong aside from names (I had no control over that).

Accommodations: Just built this first barn from random lumber and barn tin probably a little drafty still but I will be fortifying and improving it daily over the next couple of days. Threw an old dog house inside the barn but it's too small for them so plan to add some small pens made of plywood. Created a 100' x 100' fenced/penned area around the barn which they already love getting outside of. I have a salt/mineral lick rock in the starter shed/barn. Tried adding a little hay for flooring and tried some pine pellets for flooring but they try to eat those. They seem to enjoy grazing the inside pen area with all sorts of random weedy things from clover and grass to ragweed and wild oat or mexican fireweed (don't think they are supposed to eat a lot of tumbleweed but I can't seem to stop them). The oldest goat also likes to test my gate and has jail-broken the herd loose twice so far. The third time my reinforcements seem to be working at least for now. Planning to add lighting and almost certainly a 30 foot 60 watt pipe wrap to ward freezing temps slightly (anyone used one of these in their barn before?)

Procedures: I'm planning to perform hoof trimmings to all plus a CDT vaccination shot. Since they are new would likely be planning to do a round of Ivomec dewormer. Next would be full set of CAE tests. Any procedures I am overlooking for a new herd?

Routine:They get hay/alfalfa in the morning and some grains (pellets oats) in the evening. I walk them outside the pen skirting the forested areas as a herd with my stick in hand (good solid walking stick for whatever reason they seem to pay closer attention if I am holding it - works for helping get chickens back in the tractor too - cut off runners and that sort of thing - like having a really long arm)

Guardian: One 10 week old Pyrenees is learning and finally seems to be warming up to the goats - was a bit sad and put off looking at first. They have survived two nights so far despite my knowing there are predator threats int he area (hogs confirmed, coyotes or wild dogs suspected based on hoof prints in the loose dirt near the pen) - thinking of getting a second one but don't like any that I have seen thus far and don't want to buy more LGD than I really need.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Make sure all those goats will fit comfortably in the enclosure when it is raining. Goats do NOT like rain. Ensure no drafts, too. Keep hay/alfalfa available 24/7 and I'd only feed grain if they need it or you are trying to teach them to use the milk stand and be touched, etc. Are any of them milking? Bred?

Get rid of the salt/mineral block. They cannot get enough minerals that way. Buy a good loose mineral and keep that out 24/7 in your enclosure. There are plans on here to make your own mineral feeder or you can buy one. 

If you are unsure of their vaccination status, I'd give the booster of CD/T in another 3 - 4 weeks. You may also want to consider vaccination for pasteurrella pneumonia.

I would put bedding down (straw). Yeah they'll taste some of it, but if you keep your hay feeders full, they'll have plenty of bedding to keep them warm and dry. It's the dryness you need to achieve. Our pens are a mess from all the rain we've had and shelters could use another cleanout, but my does still come into the barn clean and dry.

Glad to hear you are testing for CAE. What are your plans if you get any positives?


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## quiltstuff (Sep 27, 2012)

Don't worry about the tumbleweed.....look it up on Google and you'll see it actually has some nutritive value.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Congratulations! I don't worry about my barn being open, but I do make sure that no water leaks or blows in. I have calf huts and an open sided barn for shelter and it works fine. It is not really cold for that long out here, though.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Is the ladder on the inside of the pen? If so, you'll want to get it out soon.  Goats are such curious creatures, and it looks like some kind of tasty goat chew thing to me.

You may have parasite issues with them grazing that close to the ground. If you can easily move the pen frequently, that would be a help. I would ask previous owners about parasite management and vaccines. If they are bred, you will want to be careful about what wormers you use, and you should give them the vaccines 1 month before they're due...though you could give it now as well, if needed, it doesn't hurt to get it more frequently. Check eyelids and assess their condition, and check fecals if possible to decide what they may be harboring.

Monitor the goats for any abscesses that might pop up; if they do, quarantine the goat and get them tested for CL before they rupture on your property.

Good luck on your new adventure, that's quite the start to it!


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Are you going to run electric hot wire just inside the fence to keep them from breaking it down?


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

OK been a rough few days - Bell and Patty have developed coughs - not sure if it is maybe because they had hay in their drinking water or just catching colds. Good news all 8 have survived so far through the worst cold spell in memory here in North Texas. I finished closing in the three sides of the barn - today I draped a heavy plastic (barrier floor liner) across the south open side of the barn and they can go inside and have zero wind because that wind has some real bite. My workmanship on the first barn leaves a bit to be desired - now I see why they usually put the rear panels sideways the rain is dripping inside because the back is too tall.. doh. 

The pipe wrap did get knocked down and slightly nibbled on I think so I took it out - I have a 10 foot pvc on site (could put the power cord through that to keep them from chewing on the wire) and could then put a space heater safely up high tied on tight to the barn with some baling wire but might not do that until tomorrow if I decide to try it. Supposed to go down to below 30 the next three days.

Threw seven square bales of hay in there and they redistributed half of it like bedding for themselves. Saw them out foraging on frozen icicle random grasses this morning it is amazing how well they deal with freezing cold temps. Roof still leaks in a couple of places so need to fix that by tomorrow - first need to switch the back panels to sideways so all that isn't running right inside along the wall. I have syringes but need to pick up meds (tractor supply?) like CD-T for the bigger ones I know baby George just had his CDT when they did his hoof trim 3 days ago. Applied peppermint oil to the noses of the two I saw coughing - any ideas what to do for coughs like that? My first impulse is to want to bring them in the house but that is impossible (if not a possible disaster) Tried putting a child's fleece coat on Bell backwards front legs in sleeves zip on top, it fit pretty well but few hours later she had it unzipped and removed.

Putting out hot buckets of water to drink at least twice per day.

Thank you for all the suggestions and feedback.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

Rose said:


> Are you going to run electric hot wire just inside the fence to keep them from breaking it down?


The bigger two rub on the wire pretty well and I got 32 more posts on site waiting for better weather to add those - later will plan to add hot wire (for predators more than goats) to the fence yes. They are powerful and jail broke the main gate at least 4 times now by just putting their head and shoulders into it and powering the thing open - I can see why they were used as light weight beasts of burden for small plowing and towing jobs.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

fmg said:


> Is the ladder on the inside of the pen? If so, you'll want to get it out soon.  Goats are such curious creatures, and it looks like some kind of tasty goat chew thing to me.
> 
> Monitor the goats for any abscesses that might pop up; if they do, quarantine the goat and get them tested for CL before they rupture on your property.
> 
> Good luck on your new adventure, that's quite the start to it!


Ladder is a makeshift just for putting up the tarp. It's been moved since.
No indications of CL.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

MF-Alpines said:


> Make sure all those goats will fit comfortably in the enclosure when it is raining. Goats do NOT like rain. Ensure no drafts, too. Keep hay/alfalfa available 24/7 and I'd only feed grain if they need it or you are trying to teach them to use the milk stand and be touched, etc. Are any of them milking? Bred?
> 
> Get rid of the salt/mineral block. They cannot get enough minerals that way. Buy a good loose mineral and keep that out 24/7 in your enclosure. There are plans on here to make your own mineral feeder or you can buy one.
> 
> ...


All dry ATM - not bred that I can tell (George is too small yet) - will look into loose minerals (what are those called branded as?)

Positive CAE's if we get those would be allowed to give birth once and separated from babies at birth and later likely culled. Is that a viable plan? Where do you buy test tubes? I couldn't find those at TS just the syringes.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

Later when I need to de-worm Ivomec I only see injections and drench which of these methods is simplest and best? So there are not any oral dose methods?


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Since none are pregnant and they have been moved to a new place, which is a stressor and amplifys the damage the worms do since their immune system is down, they all need wormed. All wormers are given orally, even the injectables are drawn out and given orally. Give them all Cydectin pour on, also given orally, it is cheaper than Quest horse wormer with all the goats you have which has the same ingredient as Quest but is easier to dose if you don't mind the extra money. The Cydectin is given at the rate of 1cc per 22lbs, for Barberpole worm. Then about 3 days later give IvomecPlus, make sure it has the flukacide 'Plus' in it to get Liverfluke and Lungworm. All of these are problem parasites in Texas. It's hard to say whether the usual worming of 3 times 10 days apply during this cold season where you're at, there may only be adult worms at this stage of year since you've had such cold weather and they may not be laying eggs but I'd just go ahead and worm with the two wormers 3-4 days apart, THEN doing this 3 times 10 days apart. This will make sure they're cleaned out of parasites. This needs done pre breeding. Flukacides can cause abortions. 

There is a possibility that they have Lungworm and that is causing the coughs, which the IvomecPlus will get. The Lungworm predisposes goats to pneumona also.
You could give the IvomecPlus first, because of the cough, then the Cydectin 3 days later.

I just don't have any problems with my goats if I keep parasites under control.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Ray, I didn't realize you were so close. We live west of the metroplex, a couple of hours from you. I would imagine the coughs are from the move. This wet weather doesn't help but cold is usually not an issue unless they are getting damp too.
I don't have trouble with parasites either, but I know folks around here who have had problems that just don't get resolved with routine maintenance. Not sure why, but I know it happens. Cocci and stomach worms usually.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

Laverne said:


> Since none are pregnant and they have been moved to a new place, which is a stressor and amplifys the damage the worms do since their immune system is down, they all need wormed. All wormers are given orally, even the injectables are drawn out and given orally. Give them all Cydectin pour on, also given orally, it is cheaper than Quest horse wormer with all the goats you have which has the same ingredient as Quest but is easier to dose if you don't mind the extra money. The Cydectin is given at the rate of 1cc per 22lbs, for Barberpole worm. Then about 3 days later give IvomecPlus, make sure it has the flukacide 'Plus' in it to get Liverfluke and Lungworm. All of these are problem parasites in Texas. It's hard to say whether the usual worming of 3 times 10 days apply during this cold season where you're at, there may only be adult worms at this stage of year since you've had such cold weather and they may not be laying eggs but I'd just go ahead and worm with the two wormers 3-4 days apart, THEN doing this 3 times 10 days apart. This will make sure they're cleaned out of parasites. This needs done pre breeding. Flukacides can cause abortions.
> 
> There is a possibility that they have Lungworm and that is causing the coughs, which the IvomecPlus will get. The Lungworm predisposes goats to pneumona also.
> You could give the IvomecPlus first, because of the cough, then the Cydectin 3 days later.
> ...


Thanks I will try this.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

Laverne said:


> Since none are pregnant and they have been moved to a new place, which is a stressor and amplifys the damage the worms do since their immune system is down, they all need wormed. All wormers are given orally, even the injectables are drawn out and given orally. Give them all Cydectin pour on, also given orally, it is cheaper than Quest horse wormer with all the goats you have which has the same ingredient as Quest but is easier to dose if you don't mind the extra money. The Cydectin is given at the rate of 1cc per 22lbs, for Barberpole worm. Then about 3 days later give IvomecPlus, make sure it has the flukacide 'Plus' in it to get Liverfluke and Lungworm. All of these are problem parasites in Texas. It's hard to say whether the usual worming of 3 times 10 days apply during this cold season where you're at, there may only be adult worms at this stage of year since you've had such cold weather and they may not be laying eggs but I'd just go ahead and worm with the two wormers 3-4 days apart, THEN doing this 3 times 10 days apart. This will make sure they're cleaned out of parasites. This needs done pre breeding. Flukacides can cause abortions.
> 
> There is a possibility that they have Lungworm and that is causing the coughs, which the IvomecPlus will get. The Lungworm predisposes goats to pneumona also.
> You could give the IvomecPlus first, because of the cough, then the Cydectin 3 days later.
> ...


so even the Ivermectin lungworm pour on is given orally? how much would you give to 100 pound goat?


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## jdavenport (Jul 19, 2012)

Ivermectin Plus, 1cc per 30 pounds from birth to kidding:http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f28/breeding-pre-breeding-pre-kidding-management-vicki-16566/


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

That is for injectable ivermectin plus. I've never seen it in a pour on.

ETA: Yes, all wormers are given orally except for skin issues (mites) or meningeal (deer) worm.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> That is for injectable ivermectin plus. I've never seen it in a pour on.
> 
> ETA: Yes, all wormers are given orally except for skin issues (mites) or meningeal (deer) worm.


http://www.durvet.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=40:ivermectin-pour-on

This says specifically treats lungworm - so would this not work? Are you sure you can take a pour on like this and either put it on food or in their mouths?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Ray, ALL wormers are given ORALLY to goats, no matter what form they come in, when treating internal parasites.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

It says it treats roundworms, grubs, flies, sucking and biting lice and sarcoptic mange mites. Didn't see anything about lung worm. I believe only the plus gets those.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> It says it treats roundworms, grubs, flies, sucking and biting lice and sarcoptic mange mites. Didn't see anything about lung worm. I believe only the plus gets those.


This one did specifically say lungworm in the pour on. It is light blue and smells like something I would not feed anything I didnt want to kill and instructions say "do not give orally". So I "poured" it on the two coughers out of my eight. After a few days the big girl Eve has stopped coughing. The little girl (9 months old?) has gone from fits of 6-7-8 coughs at a time to two max. Pretty good improvement.

Hit everyone with a round of Penicillin and CDT yesterday for good measure - started with one (Grace 2 year old) who had an injured foot not sure where she hurt it but saw some red and she was limping pretty good - rubbed in a tube of neo on the bottom leg and between the front hoof halves and then decided to just hit everyone with the shot since I was going to the trouble of getting one. Two days later her limp is almost completely gone - running playing same as usual again. So that is a relief.

I did find the Ivermec Plus stuff was like $35 from TS in small 50ML size (tad pricey). White liquid looks a lot more like something they can take orally so will try that in a few days on Patty and Eve (might get all of them?) to make sure the coughing goes completely away. Then by the end of the month probably redo all their Pneumonia boosters.

Anyone find anything wrong with what I am doing in any of this please let me know. I'm still new at this. Thank you all for taking time to share your knowledge and feedback.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

All goat worm meds are given orally. This is from Sheep and Goat Medicine, Dr. David Pugh, the textbook for college vet courses. Yes, even the stinky ones. It works better with goats to get the med IN them at a high dosage. If poured on, it takes a while to be absorbed, and the worms aren't hit with a killing dose. Also, the med lingers longer at the lower dose, and more resistant worms survive.

I firmly believe, however, in anecdotal reports.  I think your method worked this time on lung worms, if that is what they had. However, I wouldn't assume from that instance that it will work always on all worms. Just cautionary here.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

Upon closer examination the Ivomec plus is clear not white (back of the label is white so looked white at first glance). With a four chambered stomach I read they only get 5% of oral antibiotics into their system bloodstream, so while I understand that oral admin will get the meds directly to the area where the intestinal worms are living I can't in good conscience try to feed them something that smells that much like floor cleaner. I am certain the collective group experts are correct and I could get away with feeding it to them but I will stick with what has worked already feed them the Ivomec Plus orally and "pour on" the cheaper blue floor cleaner Ivermectin pour (smells like it has Windex in it) on as a booster a day or two after and that should also help with external parasites more than just internal (right?)

You guys/gals are the best I'd have lost a goat before now for sure were it not for all your great tips and knowledge you have shared.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

informative said:


> Upon closer examination the Ivomec plus is clear not white (back of the label is white so looked white at first glance). With a four chambered stomach I read they only get 5% of oral antibiotics into their system bloodstream, so while I understand that oral admin will get the meds directly to the area where the intestinal worms are living I can't in good conscience try to feed them something that smells that much like floor cleaner. I am certain the collective group experts are correct and I could get away with feeding it to them but I will stick with what has worked already feed them the Ivomec Plus orally and "pour on" the cheaper blue floor cleaner Ivermectin pour (smells like it has Windex in it) on as a booster a day or two after and that should also help with external parasites more than just internal (right?)
> 
> You guys/gals are the best I'd have lost a goat before now for sure were it not for all your great tips and knowledge you have shared.


Ray, your "good conscience" may well end up killing your goats at some point. And will lead to resistance. KNOW what parasites you have and USE the CORRECT wormer ORALLY!


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Ha!! That blue crap. Sure, use it for a pour on for lice/mites. Bought a bottle of the stuff once. Never could get an answer on oral dose. It's still sitting full in the vetting cabinet. Probably ought to toss it since its been years and is more than likely expired.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

doublebowgoats said:


> Ray, I didn't realize you were so close. We live west of the metroplex, a couple of hours from you. I would imagine the coughs are from the move. This wet weather doesn't help but cold is usually not an issue unless they are getting damp too.
> I don't have trouble with parasites either, but I know folks around here who have had problems that just don't get resolved with routine maintenance. Not sure why, but I know it happens. Cocci and stomach worms usually.


Texas is like a really small town that takes two days to drive across.

I thought that too about the move - but saw them visibly de-stress after about four to six weeks on site. One by one they would come over and just hang out and act friendly and you could tell they were comfortable. Oldest ones first and now after about three months the younger ones are also comfortable with us and come over to get their cheek pet or nibble at our coats. I'm not willing to blame anything on stress at this point.

It is like night and day the difference in behavior of a comfortable at ease animal from a stressed tense one.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Ha!! That blue crap. Sure, use it for a pour on for lice/mites. Bought a bottle of the stuff once. Never could get an answer on oral dose. It's still sitting full in the vetting cabinet. Probably ought to toss it since its been years and is more than likely expired.


Yeah that. The good news it was two dollars cheaper at $16 from the local feed mill than the price at TS which is $18 on the same box of windex. They don't care for it much as a pour on because of the alcohol content must feel like someone rubbed Ben Gay on them they bolt and make that PTSD face for a few minutes after having it poured on.

So still waiting to see if the oral IvomecPlus helps with the cough still. Obviously the windex may or may not have helped but the coughs remain even if slightly reduced in intensity. How quickly do you all usually see results? Two days? Three?


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I give Ivomec Plus once a year at 100 days bred since it has a 50+ day milk withdrawal. Have never had a problem with coughs.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Oral is what works, so don't try and fix what ain't broken! 

I would NEVER just go ahead and give penicillin to a whole herd of goats for no real reason! That is an excellent way to create antibiotic resistance. I even hesitate to give a sick animal antibiotics, unless I absolutely find a reason to. I have had a couple does get mastitis who recovered without even using antibiotics. I am just very cautious. And anytime you use an antibiotic, you should go the full course. For penicillin, that is a 5 day minimum round.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Oral is what works, so don't try and fix what ain't broken! 

I would NEVER just go ahead and give penicillin to a whole herd of goats for no real reason! That is an excellent way to create antibiotic resistance. I even hesitate to give a sick animal antibiotics, unless I absolutely find a reason to. I have had a couple does get mastitis who recovered without even using antibiotics. I am just very cautious. And anytime you use an antibiotic, you should go the full course. For penicillin, that is a 5 day minimum round.


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## donadavis (Mar 20, 2011)

*Great!*

What a great thread...I hope you will keep us posted on your goat keeping adventures. It is obvious to me that those are some lucky goats to fall into life with someone who cares so much about them and is willing to get out there and learn. You will be rewarded 100 fold for your kindness. Did you rescue these guys? Or did their winsome ways grab you at a sale?

Best!

Dona Davis
Spring Mtn Farms
Purebred Nubians, Vermont


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

Where is the best place to draw blood from the goat for blood testing? Hind hip/leg muscle? Elsewhere?


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## jdavenport (Jul 19, 2012)

Here's Crystal's new how-to with pictures: http://noodlevilleadventures.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-noodleville-how-to-goat-blood-draws.html
You pull blood from the neck, much easier than legs.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

jdavenport said:


> Here's Crystal's new how-to with pictures: http://noodlevilleadventures.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-noodleville-how-to-goat-blood-draws.html
> You pull blood from the neck, much easier than legs.


OMG you take blood from their neck? everyone does it this way?

Here is an image of "fat Eve" and buckling sire George - he just rammed the metal feed can and knocked it over and some spilled out and Eve of course runs over first to vacuum up the mess. I think we are all voting pregnant at this point on Eve. The can weighed over 100 pounds so he is stronger and smarter than he looks


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

donadavis said:


> What a great thread...I hope you will keep us posted on your goat keeping adventures. ... Did you rescue these guys? Or did their winsome ways grab you at a sale?
> 
> Best!
> 
> ...


I purchased them from two local breeders each about 10 minutes from here.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, we all draw blood this way.


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## horsesandhoofprints (Dec 2, 2013)

Ray, 
My favorite type of loose minerals are the Golden Blend Minerals from Hoegger's Supply Co. They're loose minerals that the goats can have free choice (so no having to measure out how many ever teaspoons per goat, like you have to with some other brands. I don't have time for that. :~) You have to measure out the Manna Pro brand minerals I think.)


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

Nah. I tried putting mana pro in a pail and they seemed to self regulate they seemed to go through it faster that way but I saw no ill effects from the overuse by a few that liked to eat the minerals - I now have about three different types of minerals and I am also fond of giving them random other foods like cheerios normally planned for chickens they seem to horn in on the chickens scraps quite a bit and get all sorts of good odds and ends that way. 

I was sure they wouldn't touch some leftover stuffing with tiny sausage bits in it intended for chickens (you know they are herbivores no meat) but Dolly one of the smaller 18 month olds was adventurous and sampled a few bites the rest turned their noses up at the smell of sausage I think. 

I now know where the notion that they eat tin cans comes from. The things they find tasty is scary sometimes. New nesting box for chickens "say this wood isn't half bad! ooo and it includes pine shavings yummie" what is worse is it seems the more you stand there and try to tell them not to eat that the more they seem compelled to do it


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I put out all loose minerals free choice. I am currently using Cargill's Right Now Onyx.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

You don't have to measure out Manna Pro. The amount they tell you is just the minimum daily requirement. You should make sure they are eating at least that much.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

OK I'm pretty sure I'm not going to waste $6 to test her for pregnancy.

wow - Really starting to show =)


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Love that look. "GIVE ME COOKIE!"


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