# Curious About Extra Teats



## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

I just saw an ad for a goat that had an extra teat. She sounds like a terrific goat, good milking lines and so on. I got curious how people feel about extra teats (and no offense to whoever had that goat, I'm sure she is a nice one, and best of luck in selling her quickly to a great home!). 

In cows, it's considered no big deal, not even (as far as I know) in dairy cows. How big of a deal is this in goats? Do you guys cull for this? I did a little research here on the forum and I guess at least some people consider it could be environmental and not genetic in cause. And yet I also read the comment that it "causes trouble, every single time". So if a goat has an extra teat, do you guys knock it in the head and put it in the freezer? I've read that it sometimes crops up in even the nicest lines. Would you use such an animal for breeding kids you intended to keep? How, exactly, does the extra teat cause trouble? I guess it could interfere with machine milking... or maybe the kids can't nurse off the teat or something? Not sure...

I suppose there are different levels too as to how bad the defect is... in the ad, the defect did not sound too bad and was on one teat, so maybe think of it that way - not one who has two complete extras, so that she almost looks like a cow.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

In dairy goats, it is a major fault. It can be environmental or genetic. 

In meat goats it's not as big of a deal, in fact some people breed for four teated boers.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Ashley is right, it is considered a huge fault in dairy goats. I certainly wouldn't keep an animal with any teat deformities. I wouldn't sell a doe or buck with anything but normal teats. And if weird teats cropped up, I wouldn't repeat the breeding that produced it. 
My friend had a boer that kidded and both of her teats had spurs or whatever you call them and her kid almost died because it looked like she was nursing but nothing could come out of the doe's teats.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You can keep and breed and milk and eat and sell any dairy goat with a fault, but please disclose the faults to others, and please don't register them! It's simply unethical.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I was once given a Nupine doeling with two extra teats. She was bred four times before she succumbed to milk fever. Obviously, she was never shown. She was one of my top producing milk goats, had a terriffic personality and out of 14 kids, only one had an extra teat. I am actually less concerned that she had four teats than the fact that the Alpine line she was out of had a heriditary predisposition to getting milk fever when first fresh or stressed. These does could not survive their MF in spite of appropriate treatment.
I currently have a Nubian buck that can't be bred to his half sister nor his daughters because of the extra teat thing. I sent one kid for meat last year and have another doeling this year with an extra teat. She will be going to live with a co worker who doesn't show goats and only wants to use her for milk. I have made his breeder aware of the extra teat issue since she still has my buck's sire. Other kids with extra teats in the past were sold without papers to either commercial dairies or a man who bred them Boer.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

It sounds like this might be considered worse than the bad bite, then? At least, it sounds like people feel the goat should be sold/slaughtered without papers if they have extra teats and I'm not sure that's the case with the bad bite thing, although due to my background I would personally slaughter any kid born with a bad bite. So, do most people feel that you would you just never even consider breeding a goat with an extra teat, to get a kid from her?

I've had them in the Boers, but they did not cause problems for me so I was not real concerned, although the does that had it were on my mental "for sale if the opportunity arises" list. When I saw that ad for a dairy goat (and the lady was clearly declaring the fault, I don't know about papers) I started wondering. It seemed to me obvious it would not be allowed in a show goat, and when I did some research here on this site I was surprised that some feel they could be environmental in cause; I always thought it was hereditary. But on the other hand it could also just be a wild fluke, a rare mutation or something.

Thank you for the discussion. I always feel it's better to talk about such things, and I for one learn from such discussions.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The problem arises when you have a fault like bad bites or extra teats is that it is hidden. If you choose to breed a doe who has extra teats, are you not weaking in the very gene pool that holds your herdname by selling kids out of this doe? If you want to keep and milk a doe with extra teats, do it, just don't sell her kids with paperwork. If you want to sell kids who have bite faults than do so, unregistered, you then don't pretend they are sold for pets, if they are pets than they don't need paperwork.

It's just like the famous bite thread on here, on Nubian Talk and on the web...would you really buy from this gal now knowing that she not only is defending this bucks bite, but now wants him back to use...I mean you really want this in your herd?

No one fault is worse than another, they are all faults, I dont' want any of them.

http://www.lynchsittybittyranch.com/Buyer_Beware_of_Jacobs_Pride.php Vicki


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

What do you do if extra teats pop up in a bloodline where you have or have seen back through the grandsires/dams and none have extra teats?
I had this pop up once - the sire and doe and granddam were bred by me - NO extra teats or spurteats. I have seen many kids from the grandparents on both sides and the grandparents - no spurteats and extrateats, but then a kid popped up that had spurteats - he was wethered. . .

"No one fault is worse than another, they are all faults, I dont' want any of them."
What would you consider faults - since none are perfect - that are "no buy / no breed" faults?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It doesn't matter what I consider faults, there are written rules. Lists of disqualifications, lists of faults, lists of moderate faults, lists of very serious faults. The question is what is the criteria you set for your own farm, your own reputation. Until this bite fault scenerio started it never in a million years was something I felt like I need to warn new folks about when buying...I mean really who would think that they would pay that kind of money for a buck and then have that be delivered! But I guess along with asking about disease and testing, we now have to ask about extra teats and bite faults...What do you consider to be a bite fault so bad you wouldn't sell the kid to me? When was the last extra teat kept and bred in your herd? Will the buckling have two testicles decended in the scrotum? Do you breed for 4 legs or three 

For my herd an extra teat on a buckling would get it euthanized, a doeling sold to one of the many people who want my goats no matter what but it would go without paperwork. V


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree with you (with Vicki, in case this is not clear). It's not like Nubians are a rare breed and we have to anxiously conserve every one for fear of them going extinct. I don't yet have the rule book from the ADGA (although it's supposed to be in the mail) so I don't know this stuff yet.

I don't have the experience in dairy goats, only horses... but in horses, there ARE no perfect animals. They simply don't exist. You try as hard as you can to find the one that is as perfect as possible, but every animal has faults that could be improved. (And of course there are unscrupulous individuals who will sell you a pig in a poke if they can, so it's "buyer beware".) If you have the option I am sure EVERYONE would buy a perfect horse, but since there aren't any you have to make choices. Do you compromise on appearance? Or what? 

Simply guessing that goats are the same - that there really ARE no perfect goats, that everyone does the best they can do. (WELL!!! You HOPE so anyway!!!) In horses you have the option of going for a performance horse - one that does not have to look perfect for the show ring (maybe a scar or something) but that is really well trained and can do something really well, like pull a carriage. I suppose in goats this might translate to an excellent milker, one who can really pump it out month after month, even though she DOES only have only three legs.  That's why I wanted to open the discussion. To *ME* (and this is just MHO) the extra teats would be a fault, but without asking I can't find out how others with more experience view the matter. I was surprised to see such a goat for sale, but on the other hand, maybe she is an excellent milker? Maybe it's more common than I thought to sell a goat like this. 

As for me, in my own herd? I am trying to get good goats, but you never know, do you? Bad bites would not fly for me. And it sounds as though extra teats should also go in the freezer. I would hate to pass on a heartache to someone else.


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

That was my question - 
At what point does a fault become something you will not sell or so forth? Do most breeders cull for anything worse than a Moderate fault or for anything worse than a minor fault?
At what point does a fault become a cull issues - obviously, that type of bite and extra teats. . .but what - beyond those?

If a doe has thrown extra teats once but it isn't in the last generations or in her, what is the typical line of action?
Do we tell buyers that there have been extra teats once in the line but that it isn't the dam, grandsire/dam, etc?

Just curious - I've never intentionally sold or bought a kid with extra teats or bred one with such for breeding - the buckling I had was wethered - never encourated a bite issue, either.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I agree with Vicki to absolutely keep this fault out of your (and others'!!!) breeding program, even though PERSONALLY I don't think an extra teat is a big deal (it isn't in dairy cows, they just take them off). But it's as Vicki says: it's not important what I think: it's officially seen as a fault. I have one doe I kept that had an extra teat on both sides: didn't notice it until after I registered her (always try to do the whole bunchof kids early). I was clipping her to get ready for a show and...oops, yeah that didn't fly. She is out of a line of awesome milkers without any double teats as far as I know: not here on my farm and not at the farm where I bought her dam, and that farm is a pretty major breeder and the owner absolutely freaks out if she sees a double teat!! Anyway, I kept the doe as a milker, since we are a small dairy, too, but her offspring does not get registered (didn't have a doeling out of her yet, but wouldn't register her if it happened, probably would keep it as a milker, though), and this year she had an awesome buckling, which we immediately wethered for a 4H wether. Just yesterday a breeder was here and asked me what I had been thinking wethering that great buckling....but she understood after I explained that I will not risk that a buck from her will ever breed a day and possibly spread double teats.

Oh and by the way: this doe that seemed to have double teats when I first clipped her as a doeling, now has a full udder and the 'second teats' are nothing but tiny little 'wattles' halfway up her udder, and nobody has ever noticed they are there. It does not affect milking, udder health or anything else for that matter. :/ Ashame I can't use her other than as a milker!


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

This might be of interest to some:
I wasn't looking for anything about extra teats - I was browsing Capricorn Farm - if you deal with Saanens, you'll recognize the name:
http://caprikornfarms.com/pdf/bucks_for_sale.pdf

Scroll to page 7 and read about buck 
"CAPRIKORN YILDUN A ROCKSTAR" priced at $1,200

Not saying I agree - At all - just find it interesting.


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

I feel like a fault in the udder just has to mean more. These are DAIRY goats. I'm sort of a uptight about nubian ears..I really dislike an ear that does not hang down below the jaw much. I was teased recently at a show for stating my opinion with that oh so familiar phrase "well you don't milk the ears." I guess my idea of what a pendulous ear is..is too picky. (now watch I will get a perfect udder on a doe with god awful ears =0) but we do milk the udder and it really is the focal point of the animal. 
When I started in Nubians I went to the two most reputable breeders in my area..bought a doe from one..and a buck from the other. The buck especially was a big investment at the time. I bred them together and got a doeling with extra spur teats. I about DIED. The doeling went on the meat truck. I'm not exactly sure where the fault came from. The buck had other doelings no extra teats but I did sell him before the next season (with full disclosure) The dam of the doeling lived to age twelve and had numerous does with never another extra teat..and I have grandaughters and great-grandaughters..I've never seen it again. As a beginner though it totally freaked me out. Even being new to goats I knew it was a bad thing. We grew up with Jersey's and my dad has a dairy background but even so he culled extra teats on the cows.
ON the other hand I have a doe that "smiles"...dang!..and she does of course have the best udder on the place-lol!


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I like how you put that, Jacquee', that it is not like Nubians are rare and we need to conserve every one. And really that is true about every recognized dairy breed that I know of. Even with the less common breeds, would it really benefit the breed to hang on to every animal as breeding stock? 
In the poultry world instead of breed standard, they call it the "standard of perfection". I like that term better because what we are saying is THIS is what a perfect goat looks like that. So you have to decide, how far from perfect are you willing to stray in your breeding program?


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

@Michelle: I used to raise rare sheep. I know about conservancy but it is not needed in this case!  Also used to raise rabbits. The interesting thing with rabbits is that the "Standard of Perfection" is re-written every 5 years, because the breeders make so much progress so quickly. But you know, one is more inclined to cull rabbits I think because they are born in litters of 8 or so and you get three or even more litters a year... so you just CAN NOT keep rabbits that are crappy. Or at least, I never could. I used to tell people, "It will cost you just as much money to feed and house and care for a wry-necked, undercut, skinny rabbit, as it will to take care of a grand champion. So you may as well have grand champions." And even with the rare sheep, I culled heavily. Sometimes people would call and ask if I had any "discount" sheep, and I would tell them that I did not sell crappy sheep, I ate them. I would only sell good stock that I would have kept myself, because I guaranteed my sheep and would take them back if someone did not like them. I did not ONCE have a sheep returned to me. Not once. So I do believe in a good strong breeding program. 

It's a learning experience to me and I am eager to learn. This is why I ask questions. I'm really glad when these issues come up so that we can discuss it and learn.

Naturally everyone would want perfect goats. I'm just not sure they are available!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Like I said, I wouldn't breed on with a doe/buck with an extra teat, but I cull for bad bites and bad feet/legs (no sense having a great doe on a bad set of 'wheels').


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I expect that buck above with the extra teat is so high as that herd is all about production and has very high producers. They are geared toward commercial production and such a buck would probably increase the production in his daughters. Though I wonder why he's not a bit cheaper for the gamble.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Jacquee what you are saying about rabbits and sheep is the way I feel about my goats. It is not that I have many goats being born but the fact that I only have 3 acres on which to house my goats. No room for crappy goats!
Ashley, I wondered that too. I mean I can kinda see selling him as there may be a market for such high producing lines in the commercial dairy business, but $1200?


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

I am glad they are declaring the fault on the above buck, so that you would know what you were getting for your money. But frankly, if I had $1,200.00 to spend on a goat, I would get a different one, in particular for a buck. Although I am sure they have fabulous goats.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

> Oh and by the way: this doe that seemed to have double teats when I first clipped her as a doeling, now has a full udder and the 'second teats' are nothing but tiny little 'wattles' halfway up her udder, and nobody has ever noticed they are there. It does not affect milking, udder health or anything else for that matter. Ashame I can't use her other than as a milker!


So are they teats - with orifices? Or are they what is called super-numerary teats? If they are super-numerary teats, they are probably okay - I would try to ask an appraiser, a judge, or an experienced goat breeder to look at them and tell you what they think.

We have "heard" about folks clipping off super-numerary teats.... but I think they should tell a buyer that the teat has been clipped. If there is a true "extra" teat, no way would I want to introduce that into my herd. Too many correct goats out there to have to take chances like that. If it was a goat that came from my own breeding, I might choose to breed the doe kid and see what happened - whether it passed to the daughter or not, then sell the doe as a family milker - but never never sell an intact buck kid or use it in my own herd.

On further reflection, I probably wouldn't even mess around with an incorrectly teated dairy animal at all. Too many other nice animals to work with - who needs the headache?

Lastly, I think some are heritable genetic faults (like that Yildun A Rockstar, since his sire passes on an extra teat 20% of the time - what do you think the %%%% become when you are using a buck that actually shows you the genetic fault????) and occasionally a funky teat shows up because of all the little DNA not lining up perfectly.)


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## helmstead (Jun 19, 2009)

I can't abide a teat defect, or any other defect. 

Last year I purchased a bred Nubian doe. She kidded with twins, buck and doe, and I was SO excited because the doe was a carbon copy of her dam (just sooo pretty). Apparently, I was too excited. This spring, I was clipping that junior doe for a show, lifted her leg...and dropped the clippers. Big, ugly extra teat staring me in the face.

Off she went, within 2 days, to a pet home, papers destroyed and ADGA notified that I pulled her papers...just in case.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

That was really a bum deal, Kate.


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## helmstead (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm still all :mad :sniffle :fire :tearhair over that one...ugh.


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## Rosesgoats (Apr 22, 2011)

I am not sure about the exact genetics behind extra teats on goats but I can explain the difference between an "environmental" flaw and a "genetic" one. I breed mice for a living at a research lab and we produce about 3000 a week. They are all inbred animals mated brother to sister for more than 12 generations. This much inbreeding means that all the mice are genetically identical to each other. Every so often we get a flaw in one of the mice. Every 300 mice or so will have something wrong that isn't passed on genetically. It's a point mutation in their DNA that causes a strange physical appearance. I haven't counted teats on the mice so I don't know if they have extra mammary glands as a flaw or anything, but some of the flaws a mouse would have are tufts of fur on their heads, small or missing eyes, and bad bites. These things pop up periodically and we haven't been able to establish a hereditary component to them. They don't come from specific recessive genes or dominant genes, so they are not considered "genetic" or hereditary flaws. They are point mutations that occur when the DNA is combined during cell meiosis. Either a chromosome gets flipped somehow or parts of it translocate in a weird way to cause a physical attribute that is abnormal. This can occur spontaneously for no apparent reason or can occur due to environmental interference. If the mouse is exposed to certain chemicals before breeding, it can produce babies that have these flaws. The problem gets complicated when you then mate these flawed mice back to each other. The point mutation can possibly be passed to offspring depending on what chromosome got messed up and where in the DNA it was. Sometimes a point mutation never gets passed on, but sometimes it does. A point mutation definitely signals a problem in the particular animal's DNA who is expressing the flaw, but it does not signal a problem in the rest of the line that is not direct offspring of that flawed animal. 

Hope this helps to clarify.


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## freedomfrom4 (Nov 4, 2009)

My husband has a super-numerary nippple and luckly none of my kids inherited it.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

LOL I have two children with an extra but they didn't get it from me!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

wheytogosaanens said:


> > Oh and by the way: this doe that seemed to have double teats when I first clipped her as a doeling, now has a full udder and the 'second teats' are nothing but tiny little 'wattles' halfway up her udder, and nobody has ever noticed they are there. It does not affect milking, udder health or anything else for that matter. Ashame I can't use her other than as a milker!
> 
> 
> So are they teats - with orifices? Or are they what is called super-numerary teats? If they are super-numerary teats, they are probably okay - I would try to ask an appraiser, a judge, or an experienced goat breeder to look at them and tell you what they think.
> ...


No, they are not teats with orifices, and they are completely out of the way now that the udder has formed. That's why I kept the doe, as she is valuable to me. I realize I could have cut the extra (super numerary) teats off, but I didn't, it is not nessecary for me and again: we are not registereing any off her offspring or breeding with any of her bucklings (ever), so the 'fault' is contained. I mentioned her dam is a fantastic milker, I have many does from that line and not a single one with extra teats, so I'm not too worried, just not going on with this particular doe.

Oh and thanks Rose, that was a great explanation!!! Helpful in this discussion!


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

So it seems there is a difference between an "extra teat" (being one with an orifice) and a "supernumerary teat" (being one without an orifice). I had not realized that. Also thank you Rose for your input about genetics which is important information. 

I am even more anxious now to attend a goat show and look at lots of goats, and try and notice things like this.


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## Rosesgoats (Apr 22, 2011)

My explanation of genetics may not be spot on but I can definitely caution everyone about not breeding animals with flaws. I accidently bred some mice with small eyes to each other and now my entire colony of 500 mice all have small eyes. The small eye problem is a point mutation in mice that isn't normally brought on by hereditary factors. Once you breed the mice with small eyes to produce more mice, those progeny have a much higher chance of having small eyes too. The only other explanation for small eyes in mice is fetal alcohol syndrome, but I haven't seen any evidence of tiny mouse kegger parties around here!!! :laughcry So now I have to start over and import clean mice without small eyes from another company so I can rebreed my entire colony without the small eyes. You can bet I now check every breeder mouse I use for good eyes. 

In short, be wary of using goats for breeding who exhibit any sort of physical flaw. You're increasing your chances of seeing this flaw happen again.


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

Haha! Rose! that cracks me up..thinking about mice with even BEADIER little eyes =)


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## danielsumner (Jul 21, 2009)

Rosesgoats said:


> Once you breed the mice with small eyes to produce more mice, those progeny have a much higher chance of having small eyes too. The only other explanation for small eyes in mice is fetal alcohol syndrome, but I haven't seen any evidence of tiny mouse kegger parties around here!!!










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