# Causes of bifurcated/extra teats?



## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

What causes a doeling to have extra or bifurcated teats? Is it always genetic or
is there perhaps an environmental factor?

I have a doeling whose parents came from nice lines with "supposedly" no udder
defects. I say supposed because any with defects would probably have been
culled. Her dam has one tiny fish teat which for a family milker is no big deal.
I bought her before I knew any better. :sigh
This is her first freshening and the doeling has both a tiny fish teat and one
bifurcated (has 4 spots that would probably be openings!) Needless to say, I
was disappointed. The buckling has been wethered and the doeling will be a pet
only. 

Have any of you had a doe throw kids with defective udders and the next time
not? Or do you even give them a second chance? 

BTW, these goats are family milkers only. We do not show, all bucklings are wethered
and sold as pets. I have kept two doelings from last year and this one is the only
one from this year. I would prefer not to spread bad genetics around even as family
milkers.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes it can be enviornmenal which will explain several kids in a season out of several does who they themselves don't have the fault, throwing kids with parrot mouth or extra teats, bred to bucks known for not having the fault, in one case repeat breedings with previous kids perfect.

But you doe is showing a fault, so you would expect that 50% of her kids will show this fault also. The problem is, does the buck your breeding her to also carry this gene recessively? If he does than she will always throw kids with problems. Even in the dairy we would not cut off teats or keep does who had teat faults because they always would become a problem, always.

Disease should always be the first thing you cull for, second has to be faults that effect the very thing the animal is, her udder. A tie for me would be her bite. Don't allow this bad purchase to continue to haunt you! Cull this out of your herd your next possible chance. Vicki


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

> I have a doeling whose parents came from nice lines with "supposedly" no udder
> defects. I say supposed because any with defects would probably have been
> culled. Her dam has one tiny fish teat which for a family milker is no big deal.


This reads to me: "I have a doeling with a defect whose mother has a defect." In other words, it's seems genetic here, whether or not it can be caused be environmental factors, too.


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

Stacey, I knew when I bred her that there was a good chance for defects.
So I was prepared. Still does not make me happy. 

Unfortunately, when you say "cull" it generally means "eat" and that 
is just not an option here. Kids perhaps, but not my milking does.
And when others say "cull" it reads "sell them at the auction" which 
I think is just as bad. I don't think it is right to pass off my problem
goat(s) to someone else. Whether or not someone did that to me
is irrelevant. I won't do that. 

Since I only plan to breed every other year (want the steady milk,
but don't need the kids) I will consider my options for next time. 
Any of her kid(s) may have to be sold for meat.

I was wondering about the environmental factor because I just
had a conversation with a breeder about this very thing. She said
that a couple of kidding seasons back , 3 unrelated does from 3 unrelated 
bucks in 3 different breeds threw kids with udder defects like this. Said
she had never had that happen before. I just thought that VERY odd.
(And no, she is not the breeder I purchased this doe from)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

There is a website that shows the gross abnormalities that kids can be born with and the genetic and nutritional causes of both, it's very interesting reading.

Sounds like you and I know the same breeder Michele, in the situation I know there was no reason for the multiple teats in the groups of animals because they were unrelated and bucks I personally used myself. 

Replacing this doe with a daughter as she comes into milk out of your clean doe, has to be your goal....it's what you do with culls, you sell her to a boer breeder who doesn't care about teat conformation, all she does in their herd is pump out kids and nurse them...or sell her to butcher or butcher her yourself (I don't sell to anyone to butcher, they have to butcher the animal here so I know they are dead).

This conversation is really why we have to find a way of reaching new folks before their purchases. So few will sell or cull their first purchases, it drags down their whole herd and hinders them from improving. Even if it is just about house milk, it could also easily become about them paying their way if they didn't become beloved pets with faults that stop sales. And to the breeders selling does like this, you know going in this kid should be put down and not sold as a milker to anyone but boer breeders. There is a kid for sale today on a website, that is being sold with her ADGA paperwork who has parrot mouth...but her breeding is so good she deserves to be sold....what a load of manure! And sadly someone will buy her! Then come on the forum with problems from this does bite, or wanting to know why nobody will buy her kids, or her kids carry the fault also. Vicki


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Years ago I had a breeding (I have Alpines) that resulted in a 4 teated doeling. ACK!!!!! I sure didn't expect that and when I discussed it with my old goat mentor from yrs ago (she is a walking/talking Alpine genetics expert) she looked at the pedigree and said......there it is.....the breeding pulled it out even though it was waaayyyy back and the luck of the draw was I ended up pulling the defect. So sometimes you have to know your bloodlines and genetics well, and not everyone is going to share those tidbits that shed light on defects in lines. So another aspect to consider is knowing the bloodlines and defects.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Your issue does sound genetic with the dam having an issue as well.

That said, in general...

"So another aspect to consider is knowing the bloodlines and defects."

But how long do you have to be in goats in order to know these things because honestly, who talks about them? Especially when they are in their herd?

We had the situation that Vicki spoke of. Does and bucks that had been bred for YEARS before with no issues throwing, in one year, multiple kids with fishtail teats. In that same year we also had a case of gastroschisis (intestines outside the body). To me this spoke of there being an environmental factor. It made no sense for different goats, with proven breeding histories in three different breeds to all have this issue. Everyone I spoke to said that it was inevitably genetic, that the breeding should never be repeated but at least one of these does was a mature doe, bred to a mature buck, with offspring from the same breeding already reproducing in multiple herds with no episodes of issues. It just didnt make sense.

Then I found this statement in an unrelated article "although most people believe that multiple teats show up when both parents carry a gene for this trait there is evidence that in some cases they are actually caused by environmental factors. In order to manage these undesirable genes breeders usually have to fall back on the "don't repeat that breeding" strategy, which is very crude and unsatisfactory. " (http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,72.0.html) This seemed to confirm our experience.

At anyrate, we spent a year trying to isolate what the environmental cause might be, to no avail. The next year these does kidded again, most of them bred to the same bucks, with absolutely no hint of issue. The twins of the affected kids from the year before kidded, also having offspring with no issues. We have never before nor since had a year like that one, for which I am very thankful!

So in the end our experience taught us that there are bloodlines which can carry these faults but that does NOT mean that when these faults occur that the cause is always genetic, in some instances they may be a result of an environmental factor. In the instance where an environmental factor is at play, the affected does are as unlikely in the future to have kids with the issue as any other animal without the genetic tendency. As an example, the children of women given thalidomide when pregnant were often born with significant limb abnormalities but when they grew up, those affected children were themselves no more likely to have children with the defect than anyone else not given the medications and their mothers are at no increased risk of having more children with the limb abnormalities as long as they are no longer taking the medication that caused the defect in the first place.


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

Thank you all for your input. Knowing the lines and genetics is not likely for someone
like myself who is relatively new at this. And, as you said, if it is in the herd, who is
going to talk about it? In this case, she KNEW the doe had a fishtail teat. Did not
mention it. I found out after I brought her home. (Was so excited to get my new
goats, I did not know what to look for.) I called her and she insisted she "never
noticed it". Hmmmmm. :really But that is all water under the bridge.

While my situation is obviously genetic, the environmental angle is interesting.
I had just never heard of it being possibly environmental and being inexperienced
thought I would ask.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"I found out after I brought her home. "

Oooh, this is SO wrong! She should have made that right immediately, as soon as she learned of the issue! 

After our experience that year, the first thing we do after checking for gender when we first look at babies is to look at teats. It is unfathomable to me that, knowing the dam has an issue, that she wouldnt have checked the kids right away, But even if she did not, as very soon as she heard from you she should have taken the kids back or at least given you your money back!


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

Actually the doe that I purchased from her is the dam to this one that has the 
really bad defects. The doe I originally purchased has the tiny fish teat, but her
dam (as far as I know) did not have an issue. It is "possible" that she did not 
notice it, but doubtful. And there was never a mention of making it right.
I "thought" that she was a reputable/upstanding person, but..... Needless to
say, I would not purchase from her again.

Unfortunately, this doe with the fish teat is a Miniature, so I would not want
to sell her to someone even to raise meat goats. I don't think that breeding her
to a full size Boer would be a good idea. She does, however, milk quite well.
So, since her purpose here is for milk, I could just market her offspring to the meat
buyer. Since I am planning on milking any/all of my does through, I will only have
to worry about it every second kidding season. I currently have as many as I need
for milk and have two replacement doelings ready to go for next fall. 

It would be nice if everyone was honest and willing to help out someone new.
Sure hasn't been the case around here. IF I have to purchase any more goats
I swear I am going to have to import them from one of the people on DGI!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Just let us help you find someone when you are looking. Biggy is that on here you will learn all the tricks they pull  And you will know all the right questions to ask! They won't know what hit them! Vicki


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

> But how long do you have to be in goats in order to know these things because honestly, who talks about them? Especially when they are in their herd?


Breeders usually are tight mouthed about genetics and don't really share openly. So there really isn't an answer for how long. If you get to know someone really well like I did that will share that helps a lot. If you watch what is said on the breed talk lists you can catch enough info to put 2 + 2 together. Mostly though when you've been in the goat world for a few decades you learn, someone always slips up! And too, from our own personal experiences after yrs we learn too. It's more about, "Heaven forbid, people find out about my lines having a defective gene there goes my reputation and sales!" But in reality by not telling and knowing it's not being honest. Inspect not only doe kids, but adult milkers too, for scars where the extra teat or teats would have been where they got snipped off at birth.

I too check for teats on the newborns right after I check sex.


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