# Udders - Mastitic vs CAE+



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

As I've posted before, I have two does that are CAE+. Nettie shows no signs (3F). However, Scarlett, my FF, has the most awful udder. She was SO congested after kidding with floppy teats (again, posted before). However, she is 6 weeks fresh, and while her udder is small and teats have filled out so that I can milk her more easily, there are two things happening:

1. There is still blood in the milk. The milk does not look pink like it first did, but I have saved it separately from my other doe and the blood settles in the jar (this is after straining). She is milked twice a day and milking does not seem to bother her. We do not save or drink this milk (saved the last bit to see if she still had blood). We are only getting 8oz per milking.

2. I talked to one of the vets about it and she didn't seem to want to test for mastitis. I test myself with a strip cup and Immunocell CMT. Nothing. I would still like to get her tested (if I push my vet(s) they will test or I will look up on how to do it and send it in myself). She did have me infuse with Today and the teat attached to the half of the udder with the most lumpiness, well, it was hard to get it in the teat. The other one was easier. I have to say, it seems to have helped somewhat. Not completely.

I feel like I should have not infused her without testing. But I did.

At this point.....

**Why am I still getting blood in the milk? I've been gentle, but thorough.
**Can you have mastitis without yellowishness, flakes, strings, etc?

What should I do next?

Thanks for your advice and comments.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Our best fix for any blood in the milk is vitamin c.
This strengthens capillaries that are breaking from the pressures in the udder.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You don't need a vet for testing, simply get ahold of LSU in goatkeeping 101 and send the samples in yourself, you certainly also have labs in your state that doe this also. Until the congestion is gone she won't stop the blood, what you are seeing is dead blood. Mastitis that would cause this kind of damage in an udder would also give you high fever, swollen udder that is hot, a very ill doe, and what you are milking out is putrid/stringy/bloody, it would not congest the udder.

The whole hard udder thing is new, we had CAE and it only presented in swollen knees, nothing else, once elderly we did have alot more problems with pnemonia even in asymptomatic does. Vicki


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## HeritageFarm (May 4, 2010)

I've heard you can also test for mastitis by putting soap in a tablespoon of milk?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Dawn dishwashing liquid will work showing you change in your does somatic cell counts exactly like CMT tests do. It does not diagnose mastitis because every does somatic cell count can be higher for many reasons, including illness, seasonal heats and the stage of lactation she is in. Now if you did use the soap or CMT every week and one week the does milk gelled more, it would tell you perhaps earlier to test the milk with a lab. Vicki


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

You can send a milk sample to a regular milk lab (like we use for DHIR) and get a somatic cell count that way - pretty cheap test.

And like Vicki said - you should have many places that you can send a milk sample for culture and sensitivity - and probably cheaper if you use an in-state lab. You could start with the milk sample and then if you have a high SCC, pull a sample to send for culture/sensitivity (generally more expensive) so that you will know what you are treating and what the best antibiotic is for it. And you can do all of this yourself, easily, and with less expense than using your vet.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Mastitis that would cause this kind of damage in an udder would also give you high fever, swollen udder that is hot, a very ill doe, and what you are milking out is putrid/stringy/bloody, it would not congest the udder.


Combine this info with my own "tests" (not official) and the fact that the doe does not have a fever, swollen udder, nor does she act sick: Can we then deduce that this is from CAE? And, if so, what do I do? I will try the Vitamin C as suggested. Any other suggestions?

Thanks, all.


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## HeritageFarm (May 4, 2010)

Usually, it just goes away on it's own.


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## Woadleaf (Oct 17, 2009)

I have limited experience in goats, but like yourself, I have a FF with CAE and had mastitis.

When Eddy freshened, she was moderately congested with swollen hard ducts. She was also very uncooperative to be milked, so the process of massaging the ducts was difficult. Her milk was fine - no flakes, strings or clots, her temp was fine. Her udder improved over time, but her disposition on the milk stand worsened. She never fully came into milk, giving more than your doe, but still less than a litre a day. By six weeks fresh, her udder was distinctly lopsided, milk still fine, temp still fine, behaviour-like milking a wildcat. Talked to the vet and he was happy to treat for mastitis (without culturing) with Depocillin (procaine penicillin) 2cc IM 2X daily. It worked, she is not acting out in pain, and her milk volume has doubled. She's still lopsided, although not as bad, and I'm told she'll remain so for the remainder of this lactation. We're working through black flies and mosquitoes right now, so some nights she's fightier than other, but I sense she doesn't possess a high drive to milk anyway. Maybe it'll be different next year.

Not exactly the same circumstances as you, but hope this helps for perspective.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If she is CAE positive and symptomatic, ie...hard udder, there is nothing to do. A poor lactation is always in her future, contaminating any kids who do try to nurse her colostum even just a few cc's before you find them. It's not an inflammation in her udder that would be helped with massage or vitamin C or banamine/dex etc...it's the same type of damage to the udder seen in knees and lungs by CAE. What you a seeing is why even in dairies, who previously didn't think CAE was a problem, this loss of milk is huge, tested. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Thank you all for your replies.

Since there will be no improvement, now or in the future, I am going to dry her off. And I won't breed her again. I will also have to seriously think about culling her (not selling her off). She's part of the family, but, well, we'll see. I think it would be the right thing to do.

Thank you, again.


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## HeritageFarm (May 4, 2010)

Now... Just to warn you before you do that... I heard that the most CEA will do is almost completely stop milk production. The blood in her milk probably has nothing to do with CEA. I don't think you've waited long enough. It took ours a long time to clear up. Unless, the milk is actually blood colored? I've only seen a little blood in the bottom of the glass container, how much do you have?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Ted. I cannot see blood in milk, it is if I save it, it settles to the bottom of the jar. However, she is 6 weeks fresh and I am still only getting about 8oz of milk per milking.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

CAE will definately cause hard congested udders. I saw this on does some 20 years ago who tested positive for CAE. These does were put down and we have not had CAE since. The congested udders give NO MILK or hardly any at all. 

When you have pink milk or blood that settles in the milk - it can be caused by rough milking or grasping too high on the udder when milking the teat. 

My thinking is that because of the congestion that it has caused blood vessels to be weak and that is the cause of the pink milk at the bottom. 

The Vitamin C might help as well as milking more gently and making certain you are not grasping up high on the udder when you are milking.

Overall - the outlook for this animal is not good. Consider culling and getting something healthy as she will continue to be a chronic poor producer.


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## HeritageFarm (May 4, 2010)

MF-Alpines said:


> Ted. I cannot see blood in milk, it is if I save it, it settles to the bottom of the jar. However, she is 6 weeks fresh and I am still only getting about 8oz of milk per milking.


....8oz? Um, yeah, I certainly would not mess with milking that. Although, had an Ober have kids early, both dead, started at a cup, worked her way to 3/4 gal at present.


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## deJardine (Apr 29, 2009)

I am not trying to be rude and am genuinely curious as to *why* if a doe is positive for CAE, would she be bred?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We bred them and gleaned kids off of them because they were valuable bloodlines that we were fortunate to even have. CAE is not passed in utero, so if you hand breed and lutelyse the does about a week before they are due, which gives you kids right at 36 hours from then so you are not a week early with the kids, and are their for the kidding there is zero chance of spreading this to the kid crop. We maintained 25 does, most of which were positive or simply were never tested because they weren't part of our show string, which included champions, does with their milk stars, does who now would have been champions had AOP been official and who would have been superior genetics had that been around also. Several had been LA'ed and other HES by Harvey Considine....all were sold to us for a song, mostly to my oldest daughter for the diary because they knew we maintained a positive herd. We didn't show any of them after they got here.


But they never raised kids, their colosrum was never heat treated for the clean side of the barn and their milk was never pasteurised for the clean side of the barn. It's a huge commitment to have positie animal that ethically you should put down if you can't keep them, which the folks who we got ours from knew exactly that would happen, and did. Some didn't do well once they got here, others become symptomatic and simply were to high maintence for a milking dairy, others lived out their long lives here.

Would I do it again, no. Even having positive animals on your place will kill your sales. And it's just me, way to much work by yourself. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

And for me, Rachelle, I did not have them tested before I got them (I didn't even know I should). I found out they were CAE+ the day before my second girl kidded.

In other words, I shouldn't have bought them. 

I was there for the birth so they were taken directly from birth and are in a completely separate pen from the two does. They only thing I can do now, is wait and see. So far, so good.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

I can't help but wonder why some long time breeders continue to have CAE positive animals. I read on one website that said, "we still have some positive does but attend birth and separate the kids from their dams and pasteurize the milk." These people had been breeding goats since the 1970's. Why are they still dealing with this disease after all of these years? 

I understand the fact that there might be some excellent genetics that one might not want to lose. However, to keep these animals, it is imperative that a separate herd with separate milking facility be maintained or better yet drying those does after they have given birth and strict attention should be paid to births, taping teats against accidental ingestion, and every other precaution made - along with pasteurization.

Pasteurizing CAE milk will not eliminate the problem. There are too many chances of mixing the milk, forgetting to turn the pasteurizer on, a faulty thermometer or pasteurizer, too many children in the barn or an adult or farm sitter who doesn't care. 

As for me, I couldn't do this so I put every goat down some 20 years ago that had CAE and eliminated them from my herd. I did not pass these on to other unsuspecting folks - or tell some newbie how to raise them separately. This would overtax most newbies discouraging them so that they would quit. 

It is best to start with healthy animals rather than get a good deal on excellent genetics with positive animals. CAE isn't cheap - the extra work takes hundreds of extra man hours and labor. The knowledge that you are dealing with positive animals hurts sales. 

My advice to anyone is to bury that mistake and put that problem in the dirt - otherwise you will spend years dealing with chronic diseased animals that require special care. You will be years ahead starting out with a clean herd and so many less heart aches.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

"My advice to anyone is to bury that mistake and put that problem in the dirt ", Tim

I agree Tim! Man what a nightmare. Once we had everyone tested and found two this year...well their not here any more. The chore of milking that doe and sanitizing everything that was used on her made my hands crack and bleed. Lots of bleach and chlorhexiderm. Though our experience with CAE thankfully was not symptomatic it sure was hard to sell any kids we had here. Once the doe who had CAE was gone it got much much easier :really. Now that the buck is gone we have had calls from all over the place :really. Still the same herd, just negative results on all that are left. And we will routinely test twice a yr for does and once a yr for bucks. We have even tested our young stock for sale so people can know they were not fed raw/heat treated colostrum or raw/pasturized milk (thats the only purpose for them to be tested at that age). We even had a reservation placed right after the last CAE left. Amazing.
Although I will remain truthful to any who asks at least now I do not have to cringe every time I place ad. It is humiliating the way you are treated from other goat breeders. You feel that you are spinning your wheels. Why should you have to endure this after all the hard work put into your animals? All the money spent on your animals? All of it matters not to the next goat breeder just the CAE. Tam


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## deJardine (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks you guys for taking the time to explain that to me. I was a bit afraid to ask because the answer did not seem obvious. I did not know its not passed in utero. I have been pretty lucky, but "if" that were to ever happen here I imagine it would be a very difficult thing to manage or deal with. Even though we have around 10 - they are our pets first and foremost. I can't imagine having to cull; although necessary (I understand) its heartbreaking at best.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You just don't put yourself into that situation. Simply don't buy from those who don't test and show you negative results first for any of the diseases that are important to you. Then test the goat, be it 1 day old or whatever, as soon as you get it home, then the milk you fed or who she is housed with can not be made the blame for her being positive. Seasoned breeders still having CAE on their place simply shows you how lacking the care during kidding season really is, and how much work it is, I was motivated because it was my job and our livelyhood when my husbands business was new during the winter lulls, but there were plenty of doelings that got killed with bucklings at birth because I would miss a kidding. Back with AGID testing only, no way would I ever believe a doe was really negative....now with ELISA and PCR, I simply won't sell kids I happen to miss the birth of until I send in blood for CAE which is so convienent with biotracking.com

Vicki


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## Woadleaf (Oct 17, 2009)

It's become clear to me now that in this area of Canada, we're about 30 years behind in goat breeding. At first I felt a fool to take on these goats who were CAE+, (in my defense, I did know about testing before buying, but these were given to me in trade, it was them or nothing), but I've come to be told that nearly all the dairy goats in this province are exposed to CAE. If I want CAE- goats, I either have to breed and practice prevention myself or ship them in for big bucks.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes that can be seen in comments made on other forums, even facebook, on mineral blocks, injecting wormers, kids nursing without testing. An of course the tried and true "My goats look good". Vicki


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## sarafina (Dec 26, 2009)

Does CAE affect the meat? Can you put a goat in the freezer who is CAE positive?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread, either with questions or answers. It is obvious, that some of us really need some help. Maybe we have it and don't take it, or maybe we have it and SHOULDN'T take it.

Thank God for the forum.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sarah, CAE doesn't effect the meat, it also doesn't effect the milk if we drink it. Vicki


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