# My herd is positive for CAE... now what?



## Rosesgoats (Apr 22, 2011)

I just tested my adult does for the first time ever for CAE last week. All came back positive in the 80s for titers. I am not surprised by this because I have never pasteurized milk for the kids and I have had an open herd. I don't want to cull any of my current goats who are positive right now because all of them are healthy and symptom free. None have hard udders, swollen knees, or other signs of CAE. Now that I know more about CAE and how to test for it I don't want to create any more goats who have it. I am going to start pasteurizing the milk for my kids. I already separate and bottle feed. What are some other practical things I can do to limit spreading this to other goats and any kids I produce in the future? Any advice is appreciated.


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 10, 2009)

First, I'm very glad you tested.
Now you must be very careful of Bio-security if you want to clean up the herd. It is going to be a long uphill battle, both with the goats and anyone who comes to your farm to buy a kid, and with people in forums once they know. But you can come out of it.

Remember it only takes one mistake and a negative goat will become positive. That means the milk and colostrum must be pasteurized for the full time and at the correct temp for the entire time. As an alternative you can use powdered colostrum and whole cows milk from the store.
You will have to run two separate herds once you start getting negative stock, that means separate milk rooms, if you want to prevent an accident. Although CAE does not live long outside the body, it is my belief from watching and working at dairies that have "conversions" that the milk atomizes in the milk room and just by working a doe(hooves, triming, etc...) after the milking is done they turned a negative doe, positive.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The only conversion in your adult does will be during birthing and when adding new does to the pen if you have fighters.

I only hand bred positive does, knowing due dates I lutelysed so they kidded during the week when we for sure were going to be here. I super glued the teats shut so there was no way for a kid to nurse if I missed the birth by a few minutes. The barn was intercommed and I stayed home. I got so good at pelvics I could tell if a doe was going to kid or if I had time to run to town and get feed. ANY kids found licked off with the seals on the teats broken was killed, this mostly happened with our Lamancha crosses who kidded before 145 days.

I had no choice but to use colostrum initially from CAE positive does because when I tested the first time I only had a very small handful of adult does who were negative. Like most farms I purchased CAE positive does and pooled their colostrum and milk and infected all the younger stock for several years, and then starting testing. I had no choice but to use heat treated colostrum from positive does. Now I would simply use one of the many colostrum replacers (not supplements) that list IeG's of immunity in them. If you have to use milk from the herd than when it is being pasteurized dye it with food coloring, I would raise my keeper doelings on grocery store milk, so there is no mistake...if you have children or others who help with chores simply tell them that at no time does any milk that is not green, or grocery store milk, ever get fed to the kids...explain about your reputation and the costs of having to replace stock you sold to others.

The management at dairies that passes CAE through the herd is pretty simple. The don't test, they aren't there themselves during kidding season, the second you put this into someone elses hands, be it paid workers or your children, you can no longer say that such and such turned a negative doe to positive. When you really get down to it, few can produce the paperwork to prove their herd is negative and fewer more test period. Everyone started with positive herds like you have if they have had goats longer than 10 years, so it's totally doable. 

With biotracking telling you the titer level that is borderline, or positive, it is key in tracking the difference between does who are borderline at one facility and positive at another...worse is one lab is negative and won't show you titers, yet she is low positive with biotracking....positive on PCR, positive even on AGID. You won't have a true false positive ever, false borderline yes, blood pulled when she is ill, when she has been vaccinated for pasturella...I am sure if more would test and send it in like I have done, we would find other vaccines that can raise titer. 

Very honestly although I would never let CAE positive bucks live together because of fighting and blood to blood contact with head butting...the only reason for quarantining your positive does away from your negative is because of the fluids during kidding, negative does licking birthing fluids off positive does kids, and it would simply hurt sales now. The reason why you have to be so strict during kidding season is because kids do bust their lips on the lambars attacking them, they then share nipples, moving around the lambar, blood from one doeling into the mouth of the other doeling.

Also cull, don't keep anything positive unless you simply HAVE to have her bloodline, you simply HAVE to keep her for the milk, it's easier to deal with a small group of positive does, rather than the two groups of 25 does we did. Thankfully, I was able to cull a few young bucks who were positive and my senior bucks were all tested negative.

I never want to go back to this, I won't buy from those who won't test, period. If they won't test I won't buy, if I can't afford to test when they get home I can't afford to buy the goat. And even then I test when they get here, infants to adults. I am pretty happy with my group right now, all tested negative, doing G6S right now and with all but one doe, who tested zero on test  homegrown or aged, with multiple negative tests, I am done heat treating and pasteurising.

You also might not want to have admitted all this on open forum, it is going to kill your sales of anyone reading this...so if you want to erase it just contact me or a moderator. Vicki


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

The milk atomizing theory is a bit far-fetched. Could it happen? Well maybe but extremely unlikely, somewhat like people contracting HIV by being in the same room when someone with HIV sneezes. Actually that is probably more likely than a goat contracting CAE by being trimmed in the room where a CAE positive goat was milked. 

In "Sheep and Goat Medicine" it references conversions in dairies due to CAE positive does being milked first and then transfered via milk on/in inflations to negative does.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

When we had our CAE + animals, the doe was not separated from the rest of the does until the day she kidded. Then she was housed separately, milked last and we used different milking equipment (not blessed with a milk machine). All of her buckets were washed with Chlorhexadine. We used the same stanchion, trimmers, and clippers, once again washed every thing down with Chlorhexidine. We did not have extra monies to buy extra equipment. A good solid cleaning regime is a must and the order of milking must never be deviated from. Her colostrum went down the drain. We poured her milk on the lawn or used it in the gardens. It was NEVER used for animals. We had the luxury of some clean does and used their colostum for her kids. I would say find a clean herd in your area, test if necessary for your own soundness of mind and get good colostrum from them. Nothing like the real thing. Powdered colostrum will work (as suggested NOT replacer).
Our bucks were housed together, and a big sigh of relief came over us when we finally culled the last of the CAE + animals to the meat market. It was sad as we had some really nice animals. Since we have tested many times and are still at a herd negative status. It is a big relief to have it gone and you can be sure we test and buy from tested herds. The amazing part is...we did start out negative, but the purchase of just one doe that was positive changed that status. And it was from a herd that did not test regularly nor could they afford too. Our animals sales pay for their testing, if they don't make enough we make sure we pay for it. You have done the right thing to test and do not think you cannot cull out the nessecary animals to get negative...it can be done and in a short period of time, but use a good clean protocol, never deviate, and cull. Be absolutely honest with any sales, lying gets you no where but out of goats fast. And do not think that you will kill sales by being honest. It will actually help you gain a good reputation as an honest breeder. And people will keep coming back, it has been proven here. If you are in goats for sales, then cull like the dickens, save your money and buy clean healthy animals from negative tested herds, and then re-test. I wish you the best of luck with your herd.
Tam


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## Rosesgoats (Apr 22, 2011)

Thanks for the support. I am working on processing this all. My herd is just a small home dairy herd. I have 3 adult does and their kids. I have always bottle fed the kids but never pasteurized, which is where the problem started. I am assuming my very first doe was positive and that is who brought it into the herd. I don't want to cull my adults unless I have to due to illness. The oldest doe is retired from breeding as of this year. I want to breed my other two does again this fall to my current buckling so I can have milk next year. Those kids I would like to pull and feed pasteurized milk next year to start working on negative goats. I have spent a lot of time and energy on producing the goats that I have so I don't want to cull my losses and start over totally. They have the genetics I want to keep. 

I would like to try to breed new goats who are negative from my old ones so I can slowly phase out the CAE. It's going to be a long process for me but it's what I need to do. 

I am not worried about my reputation. I would rather be honest and scare people away from buying my goats than be dishonest and spread CAE around. I don't really want to have any more new goat owners have the same problems as I do so I will be honest. 

The real stinker is that I have three LOVELY doelings right now that I have no idea what to do with. They are so pretty and so friendly but they are probably positive. I really don't want to shoot them. I don't know what to do...


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

We had two positive does and one suspect doe a number of years ago, suspect doe still lives with a friend down the road and has never converted to positive. I purchased these does knowing they were more than likely positive but I wanted their genetics in my herd (one of my permanent champions descends from the suspect doe; a granddaughter of one of the other positive does has her milking star and scored VVEE 90 on linear appraisal at three years of age). And we had a positive Nubian buck and a positive Boer buck. No one ever gave their CAE to anyone else. We induced the does, pulled the kids and never milked the does. I learned from Paul Fox when I was just seriously getting into Nubians that if you never milk a doe after she kids the colostrum actually helps the doe dry up fairly quickly (I would add though, that after having an older doe kid with mastitis, one must be sure that the udder is healthy if you're not going to milk it out after the doe kids). So this method worked for us and we were able to raise CAE negative kids from these does without any problems using colostrum and milk from our negative does. We're now three and four generations away from those does. So it can be done, you just have to be vigilant in your goatkeeping practices to be sure you don't use the same syringe to deworm a positive doe and then a negative doe; if you make a positive doe bleed when you're trimming her feet, clean your hoof trimmers and any blood that may have spilled on the stand or the ground; never use a needle more than one time; keep your positive does separated from your negative does after they kid until they've passed all their birthing fluids/lochia and their udders are completely dried up. 

I think many if not most of us who have been in dairy goats for 10-20 years have had CAE positive foundation goats in our herd that we managed to raise negative kids from and those kids have gone on to be healthy, productive adults. Hang in there! It can be done.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Like others on this forum, I've had goats that were CAE positive. When I first had goats, I tested some, but not with the more reputable places and some positives came back negative. These goats came from a commercial dairy and were retested with WADDL when they showed symptoms. The dairy owner had tested some of their dams in the past and they had been negative. She thinks that while CAE is not spread through casual contact, it can be spread through a milking machine if a negative doe is milked right after a positive one and the claws are not sanitized. I had one doe I hadn't bothered to test because she was a Boer cross and her kids were sold for meat. When the vet came out and tested all the goats, she turned up positive. Though she was hand milked along with the rest of the does, she never spread the virus to my other does. Though she showed no CAE symptoms, I chose to put her down because she no longer was able to conceive and was getting so heavy her pasterns were breaking down. All but one of the rest of the positive goats went to the meat man. My one remaining positive Nubian doe resides in my friend's quarantine pen where she's hand bred and her doe kids pulled immediately and fed colostrum from one of my negative does. Doelings come here to be raised on prevention. She gets to raise her bucklings for the freezer. So far, she's shown no symptoms and she's six years old. I test her daughters regularly and all have tested negative. It is possible to keep your bloodlines and get the disease out of your herd.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

If we had positives show up in the herd, I would never use their milk for feeding kids I wanted to be negative. For me it would be too risky. I am too careless and would certainly mess up the pasturization process and spread the disease. I would use a colostrum replacer and cows milk to be very very sure my kids were negative. If a person had a large dairy with many kids to feed this would be cost prohibitive, but with just a few kids, it should be very doable and so worth it.


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

Again, I am so sorry you have to work with this. It makes goat ownership and management that much harder for the new person. If you really need the genetics and have the dedication, of course it can be done. Be careful to keep separate EVERYTHING between positives and negatives. I have a friend who has a positive buck who has lived his whole life (10 years) with a wether of the same age. They test yearly and the wether is negative and the buck positive. The does he breeds are negative as are their kids. They are responsible and dedicated breeders. So it is possible with some thought, but it is not ideal. The best, in my eyes unless there are serious superior genetics involved, would be to cull all of them and begin with the best you can buy that are CLEAN. Tested and in print, CLEAN. Then there is no question. For the inexperienced, it is a lot of work to keep two groups of goats, positive and negative. Not to mention the doubt and risk of infection is ALWAYS present with a positive group on your farm. Secondly, no one wants to keep segregated goats forever, so when your needed offspring has arrived and survived...... Then, is the time to cut your risks and cull the positives. Just my opinion. CAE is not something you can go soft on.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Anita Martin said:


> If we had positives show up in the herd, I would never use their milk for feeding kids I wanted to be negative. For me it would be too risky. I am too careless and would certainly mess up the pasturization process and spread the disease. I would use a colostrum replacer and cows milk to be very very sure my kids were negative. If a person had a large dairy with many kids to feed this would be cost prohibitive, but with just a few kids, it should be very doable and so worth it.


I do as Anita would do. I have only had goats a couple of years and my first two were CAE+. I was there for each kidding (2 years in a row)....those kids didn't hit the ground before they were whisked off. I used the colostrum replacement and store bought milk. From the one doe, I lost the kid (too big) and the other, I have tested the offspring and she is CAE-. I have yet to test the triplet doelings, but will do so in the fall.

We went to the store everyday for store bought milk - not enough room in the fridge. If you don't have a 2nd refridgerator, you may want to think about getting one.

We did buy a CAE- doe and I have used her milk, after pasteurization, for the kids, but I still needed to supplement with store-bought. It was well worth the effort and I didn't have to worry about the milk from the + doe as she was milked separately and last. We drink her milk and I use that for soap and cheese, as well.

Culling is easier than you think now that you know they are CAE+. The stress of kidding really took it's toll on me. The one doe I culled this year because the CAE symptoms showed up in the udder. No use keeping a goat that won't milk. I did have a necropsy done and had her liver tested for nutritional values so it was worth it. I didn't even shed a tear. And my herd seems to get along better without her, too. The other doe, I still have and will keep milking her until fall and then she won't be bred again. I will be breeding two negative yearlings, one FF that I purchased (CAE-) and maybe two doelings this fall. That is way more than enough for me to handle at one time.

I am looking forward to next kidding season with a little less stress.

Keep at it and good luck to you. It can be done.


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## Rosesgoats (Apr 22, 2011)

Thanks again for the support and the stories on how to eliminate it from my herd. I am going to start over next year with my two best does kidding and keeping those kids on prevention. I attend all goat births and pull kids to bottle feed already, so pulling kids at birth for prevention won't be that big of a stretch for me. I have separate pens for all my goats so I can keep the negative kids away from the positive goats. I am looking into securing some cow colostrum from a friend's farm for the kids so I don't have to heat treat the stuff from my does. What should I ask my friend about her cows so I can be sure I get clean colostrum? What diseases can travel from cows to goats? I already have a Safeguard pasteurizer so I can pasteurize the goat milk I get from my goats in 2 gallon batches and freeze any extra in case I need it in the future as the kids get bigger. Hopefully this will work out. 

I am thinking about other options to producing a negative herd faster. I may buy a negative doe and test her myself ASAP and then breed her for spring kids to jumpstart the situation. Also, depending on the kids I get this spring from my two + does that I want to breed, I may keep their kids and cull them. I also have one doeling from this spring who I may breed this fall and keep her kids and then cull her ASAP. 

I am still trying to process it all. Please keep the suggestions coming! Thanks!


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Rose - the most important thing to talk to your cow friend about is Johne's Disease and whether or not she tests for it. You can read more about this at http://www.johnes.org/.

It sounds like you already have the beginnings of an excellent CAE prevention program. Hang in there! Recognizing that you have a problem and being prepared to do something about it are the most difficult first steps.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Some folks dye their pasteurized milk pink so they can readily discern what has or has not been pasteurized. "kids don't drink if the milk is not pink" - that way raw and pasteurized milk does not get mixed up in the fridge.


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## Pam V (Jan 3, 2009)

One of the things that helped my sanity was to Dye the pasturized (kid milk) an obvious color and the unpasturized milk (white milk for human consumption) is NEVER fed to kids. My first time of doing CAE prevention the goat kids drank green milk. Looked silly but was so important for those times when you are dog tired and not as observant. Can't miss green milk! (thanks Vickie for helping me stay sane that year!)
And like others have said- nothing that touches the positives (body fluids especially) should touch the neg does. Either sanitize it or throw it. Throw: Needles. Sanitize: milking machines or hands (just milk pos last), milking buckets, hoof trimmers, clippers. I also used two thermometers when pasturizing in case one was wrong. I was NOT going to go through the heartache again.
You can do it. Its hard to cull the pos does but is so sweet when you know that you have healthy animals. 
Our last quarentiened doe was put down this year. Didn't plan on having her this long but my brother kept her at his home and milked her for 2 years straight for prople consumption as an only goat (with a wether for butchering) so we did end up breeding her one more time. So glad to be completely done. I will continue to test for the rest of my goat years.
Yes, you can do it and its worth it.


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## Rosesgoats (Apr 22, 2011)

I will dye the milk. That's a great idea! How about freezing some pasteurized stuff ahead of time to have a stock available? How long does milk stay good in the freezer when it's for the kid goats? My goats usually make more milk than the kids need so I might try to freeze any extra just in case. Can you switch from replacer to milk and back again in older kids? I am thinking that if we had to go on vacation and have someone take care of the animals that I would just give the helpers replacer to use instead of fiddling with pasteurizing. I don't leave the farm until kids are 3 weeks old ever so the kids would be a little bigger if I did need a replacement farmer for a few days. How long does Sav-A-Kid stay good? I have had a bucket in the basement for years and never needed to use it. How do I know if it's gone bad? Is it better to just buy a new bucket when I need it and dump the old one?


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

It's cheaper to feed whole cow milk from the grocery store and better for the kids than replacer. Milk should stay good in the freezer for at least a year. Past that and it may start separating when it's thawed out.


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## Rosesgoats (Apr 22, 2011)

I would only use the replacer to get rid of the stuff I already have and to use when I won't be home to pasteurize. Once I use up all the old replacer, I would buy cow milk or get some from my friend that has dairy cows.


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