# Kidding- Conclusion- Lost Veruca



## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

Long shot at this point that anyone is up but here goes....
2 year old 1/4 Boer, 1/4 Saanen, 1/4 LaMancha/Alpine, 1/4 Pygmy doe. Second freshener. Delivered twin bucks last year to the same buck she is settled to in the few hours no one was at the barn. Unassisted, did just wonderfully.
Her ligaments have been completely gone for at least 12 hours now. She has not gone into the serious pushing stage but has shown major discomfort. She's given a few cursory grunts and strains. Rolls onto her side. Is having contractions, but no real forward progression. Kids have never appeared to be in birthing position yet.
I've gone in up to my wrist twice and have run into basically a wall each time. She, of course, strains when I do that. 
I'm just not sure what I am feeling. I feel what ought to be a sack and what I am feeling has a strong artery/blood vessel pumping quite a bit of blood.
This last time I checked I think I finally found a very small opening, which would be the cervix, but it is not all that open at all.

If a kid is not presenting properly will the cervix still dialate normally?

She has been gritting her teeth off and on. She just hasn't done any of the serious pushing I expect by now.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

""""run into basically a wall each time.""""""

Do you mean that she is not open enough to feel any deeper...or are you feeling a kid and can't go any further ?

She may be trying to have one breech. Butt first, with legs not present first...or the kid could be side ways, doubled up, backbone first.......think you need to be preparing yourself to go in if something don't present itself pretty quick.

Hope it all turns out OK......Whim


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

Just checked her again. 
No cervical opening, whatsoever. I think I was not knowing what I felt earlier. I don't think it was actually open.
If goats are like cows and their cervixs are not completely flush with the wall, then I am pretty sure what I am feeling is a closed cervix and she is not in serious labor yet.
She has not had any serious pushing still.
I am quite paranoid since Bianca had some trouble and I did not address it early enough (kid presented with head only). Bianca has the same breeding as this doe. They share a father and their mothers were full sisters (a year apart in age).
We have never lost a doe during kidding in 9 years of kidding. 
The first kid still does not appear, nor feel like it is lined up yet.
I may have jumped the gun. I just don't like how long her ligaments have been gone and how she is acting.
It will be another long day in the barn.
Beautiful is in early stages herself now.


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*



whimmididdle said:


> Do you mean that she is not open enough to feel any deeper...or are you feeling a kid and can't go any further ?


 I think I am running into a closed cervix. I get to a point and simply cannot go further. It does not feel like a kid. I wish it was a kid because then I could actually do something.
The point I get to is less than a hands length into the doe. I can get my entire hand in (much to her displeasure) but cannot extend the fingers out fully.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

Hmmmm.......maybe she is just one of those that has pre pre labor, and is a slow poke about getting down to business. I would sure keep a close eye on her. 9 years under your belt...you will know when it ain't right.
Best wishes, Whim


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

Well, I don't know how many of those 9 years actually count...lol
The first 5 years of that the does kidded on there own and we would get to see a few. I did screw up back then (2002). Let a doe deliver kids she should have had help with. Triplets doelings, one DOA and the other two died within days. That was before I found goat groups on the Internet.
It's the past three years I've been there for most kiddings and started assisting when needed.

With Vercua, I just don't like what my gut is telling me. 
Thank you for the help, Whim, and the prayers, Anita.

I have a question. This is day 151 for Veruca from an overnight visit with the buck. Last year she went 152. Would Lut at this point help or hinder? My understanding is that Lute should dialite the cervix, correct? We actually have Lute on hand.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

I don't lute....so no help here.........but follow your gut on this doe. I just hope that what you are feeling ain't one that is blocking the birth canal with something other than its head and a couple feet. I'm a bit concerned that one is jammed up against the pelvic wall.
Maybe some of these gals will get on here pretty quick now, so that you can get some real help.

Again, best wishes, Whim


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## Chaty (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

It seems to me if you can get your hand in she is dialating ...do you have any CMPK? If her calcium is low she wont have as strong labor and be slower to dialate. That almost sounds like a kid sideways to me if you can get your hand in and then a wall. Lute at this stage I dont think would help like CMPK. I know with Nigis if I can get my hand in there then they are fully dialated. I personally would give her some CMPK to see if that helps. I am not a pro at this either but Lute without Dex or vice versa ...


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

Alright, the cervix is finally opening. I could fit a finger through...maybe two if I had tried. The kids have moved into position. I think I jumped the gun. Not hard to do with the week I've been having.
I'm not keen on the material coming out, but Beautiful went into labor so I had to divert my attention to her.
I have her doeling up here waiting for her bottle and then I will be checking Veruca again.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

You're rushing her...by your last post. But, I'd already typed the below. Give her some more time.

A ringwomb "feels" like a navel orange. You can feel the cervical opening...and a bulge all the way around it. A true ringwomb is CLOSED. You can not even get one finger in the cervical opening.
This requires a C-Section..NOW. 
You can lute the doe(2cc IM) and hope for the best. It's still going to take the lute several hrs. to go to work and that is an "iffy" chance.

If you can get a finger into the cervical opening then you can gently manipulate the cerivx to open. Being very careful NOT to tear the cervix.
Kaye


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

Thank you for the information on ringwomb. I did some research and none of what I found fit with the causes and this herd.

I'm just paranoid right now and running on 2 hours of sleep and waaay too much stress!

I feel so bad for her. She's tore up because I wanted to get in and make sure everything was okay. I was very careful (it took four to five tries before I actually got in because I wanted to stretch her a lot first) and used lots of lube, but darn it, she tore anyways. :blush


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

If it's just the vulva...it'll grow back. Preparation-H is in order. A torn cervix is another problem. Banamine.
Kaye


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

It was just the vulva. I realize it likely would have tore when she delivers her kids, but I still feel bad.

She is showing no signs that she is in active labor.
I'm heading out to go retrieve my Boer buck from my aunt and uncle's. I can't lose another day sitting with this goat. Especially since it is supposed to be in the high 40 and today is a good day to sort goats into breeding pens...


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

Hoping for the best with your doe, Roseanna. And hope you can catch 40 winks


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

How is your doe? Hoping all is well now.


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

This doe has still not kidded.
Last night she had some ligament left on her right side. I could have sworn her ligaments were gone two days ago, but now I am not so sure.
She has been expelling thick liquid tinged with blood. Dad thought she had kidded when he saw that, but the blood, I think, is from me teraing her vuvla. I have not seen nor felt fetal movement for two days. She was nesting two days ago and continues to nest some. She is still gritting her teeth on ocassion.

If she did have a kid jammed against the cervix sideways, would she close up and her ligaments harden without having serious contraction and pushing?

I'm just concerned something is wrong and I just don't know for sure what to do.
I should not read the goat lists this time of year. People talking about does with kids turned sideways and therefore not contracting.

I have not checked her yet today. :blush I spent most of yesterday working all day long after only 2 hours of sleep. So, needless to say, I slept away the entire morning.
Dad checked her and said she wasn't doing anything. There has been someone in the barn for most of each day, so she is checked on regularly, but he doesn't do much more than look for signs of kidding. He doesn't check her ligaments or anything because he has no frame of reference like I do.
She is eating fine, drinking, cudding, passing manure and peeing. Everything appears to be normal except the discharge.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

What day is she?


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

I checked her three hours ago (dad and I have been down at the goat pen the past three hours getting ready for this winter storm coming through). She was crying at me. Very upset. Passing more thick discharge. Both ligaments are findable now.
She is day 152, which is what she kidded on last year with her first pregnancy.
We are going to Lute her and see what comes of it.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help*

sounds like a good plan to me. Best wishes


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help- Conclusion*

A first.
Luckily we did not end up losing the doe, though she should never be bred again so it is basically the same.

Dad gave her the Lutalyse around 9PM last evening. I finished up chores and went ahead and checked her around 1AM since she had not eat her grain and was not looking good. I felt what I thought was a very dry hoof. Called dad to bring the Lute down because I assumed the cervix was still closed around the hoof.
It wasn't the hoof. They were the bottom teeth, upside down.
I worked on her for 4+ hours. She had been in active labor the evening before I posted. What I felt must have been the membranes surrounding the kid and then a mal-presentation beyond the cervix later.
The kid had been dead for some time. It was already decomposing. After me working on her for most of five hours and dad giving it a shot (though he was not real comfortable since his hands are larger and his fingers shot), I called the vet offices this morning around 6:30. Our new vet from Canada arrived around 8AM. It took her half an hour to get here because the roads are so bad (Level 2).
It was bad. I won't go into all the details but the kid had presented with a head only, I had pulled through both front legs and could not get beyond them. Once the legs were out of the way, I still could not bring the head up and out on my own. Veruca was apparently not fully dilated at any point when we were working on her. I did not know what a fully dilated cervix felt like and now I understand. She was mostly dilated but the little bit that wasn't dilated made it near impossible to pull the head through with a hand clamped to it.
After trying ropes and clamps and other things Dr. Russo was finally able to remove the kid. A large single buckling. She checked the uterus because at one point I was afraid I had found a tear in the uterus. No tears, thank goodness, despite us making a bad decision at one point in our working. Learned another thing there.
The doe has been flushed, bolused and given Oxytocin. I had given her Banamine earlier and Dr. Russo tried to give her an epidural. Not sure how successful it was since the doe is pretty small and she, the vet, had a hard time getting the needle positioned properly.
It was not looking good. At one point we discussed options (C-Section for $200? No way-which I'm sure the vet already knew the answer to that one...lol). Had she not been able to remove the kid I would have had Veruca killed.

156 births in 9 years prior to this birth and never have we had a decomposing kid delivery. The only other presentation that required a vet was last March when I was in Kansas and dad worked for hours on a doe before calling the vet out (different vet). That was a kid flipped and presented head only...just like this one. However, that was twins.

I learned a lot and so the vet cost was worth it. We would have had the vet out to kill her anyways.
It also was good to talk to the vet some more since she is our new large animal vet as of the last year. She can tell I have a clue and so she is happy to talk shop with me.
I gave her a bar of Clove soap in thanks for coming out on such a nasty morning to such a nightmare.
Obviously I should have checked earlier and listened more to my gut.

Only 6-8 more does to kid by the end of April and then a break until late July when we start up again.
I should never had said a word about things going just fine here (besides the unfortunate kid losses we've had).


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help- Conclusion*

Wow, Roseanna! This has sure been the year, hasn't it!? It's odd that she wasn't contracting the whole time.. that's what was going on with my doe, but I'm so glad Veruca pulled through.. why don't you think you can breed her again? Do you think it's some sort of genetic thing that she didn't open all the way? 
Tell you dad, BRAVO for the attempt.. I know how scary it can be 
Hope y'all get some rest!


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help- Conclusion*

The vet said we should not risk it.
This all assumes she pulls through. Dad said it appeared she had moved. There is concern for paralysis. She was up and down during most of the work but did not really move much after the final pulling.
I've been treating three pnuemonia cases alongside watching and worrying about her.
I was ready to give up on goats completely this morning because I simply could not get that head out. I know now that I could have crushed it if need be to make it fit through. It took close to two hours before I could get over the sqeuminish of what I was feeling in there and realizing what was happening. It has been a long brutal winter.
Boy, I hope Jumper (3rd F NuPine) delivers with no problems. I'm ready for a break and for that nice weather to come back.


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## KUrby (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help- Conclusion*

Dost, sorry about your luck there, but glad she made it. I hope things get better for you. Thanks for posting cause we can all learn from these experiences.
K


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help- Conclusion*

I've thought of "giving up" on goats my self a time or two.. and I think two of them were this year! :sigh
And the cold doesn't help.. no, not at all. I am _SO_ ready for summer, and all the sweat that goes with it, though I'm sure that will bring on a whole new slew of problems in and of itself for Dancer.. :really


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: Kidding- Help- Conclusion*

So sorry about your troubles. Your gut was telling you right all the time. Maybe the rest will be a breeze.

Best wishes, Whim


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## Chaty (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help- Conclusion*

I know where you are comming from...had a Nigi that wouldnt dialate completly either and the vet said dont breed again...well she did get bred again and not good results either...well it wont happen again as we had her spayed...she is fine now but each time she got bred it was a nightmare...Sorry you lost the kid but with it decomposing it had to of died in-utero...had 1 like that this year too...nasty and awful...Hope she pulls thru for you...


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help- Conclusion*

Oh what a nightmare sorry your going thru all this. Here's praying she pulls thru for you and things get better around there. Hope your feeling better now too.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help- Conclusion*

What a nitemare for you! I hope she pulls through o.k. Maybe you can find her a pet home, with bucks on your property chances are she'll get out and go to them, or visa versa.


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Kidding- Help- Conclusion*

Veruca left us around 11PM. Dad says it looks like it was peacefully.

Rest in Peace, Veruca.
1/22/06-3/8/08










Some of you may recall a doe named Violet that ended up with milk fever here last winter that we lost. She and Veruca were out of a set of triplets. They were two of only three daughters we have out of our 9 year old doe, Utopia. Utopia is our record holder for number of kids on the ground and has been stingy with the doelings.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

*Re: Kidding- Help- Conclusion*

:down :down :down I'm so sorry.

Whim


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

DARN am so sorry!!


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Awwww Roseanna, I'm so sorry!! Our prayers go out to you.. :down


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

So sorry. :down


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

So Sorry


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## Chaty (Oct 25, 2007)

so sorry you lost you doe....this hasnt been a good year for most of us...so sorry...


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry....


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## Terry (Oct 27, 2007)

Sorry you lost your doe.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry you lost her. I hope this year turns around.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

Very sorry that you lost your doe... 
Barbara


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

So sorry that this happened.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

Veruca was a beautiful doe. My heart aches for you and your loss. :down

-Kim


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## KUrby (Oct 27, 2007)

Oh No, I am so sorry.. Here's hugs from Texas
Karen


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## Kalne (Oct 25, 2007)

What a sad outcome....I'm so sorry.
Kalne


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

That's sad Roseanna, sorry. You went through so much with her. Your dad was invested so as well. Hang in there.


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