# Your feelings on CAE



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

With a new ultrasound machine on the way, there is very little reason to send in blood like normal for pregnancy testing and CAE (although I will this year because I am not going to learn to do this overnight). So when you see breeders websites that have been around awhile and they are no longer testing for CAE....how does it impact you buying from them? Do you simply trust them because they are a name brand herd, or do you really ask to see their CAE negative tests on the herd, or do you even ask? Is prevention enough? If you want CAE tests to purchase do you expect it to be yearly tests? Thanks everyone...Vicki


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I dunno Vicki, as a witness to the heartaches...I want that proof. What is the difference between an ultrasound and a blood test. Can the ultrasound tell some one, yes this animal broke their leg and has arthritis from that and no it isn't CAE? Just wondering.
Tam


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I think she means that there is no longer the 2-fer of getting your CAE testing done in conjunction with the pregnancy testing, if you aren't planning to do pregnancy testing because you are going to do an ultrasound instead.


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## Asian Goats (Feb 12, 2009)

Interesting.What about goats that tested neg. for CAE in one country,then exported to another country.Once retested in the new country tested positive for CAE?Is the test itself in question or is it a ploy from the Govt. to hide those goats and keep them for the elite of that country??


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

I think most breeders with clean herds still test. Some will dam raise (Rocky Run comes to mind) as they have been negative for so many years and really like raw milk better for kids. Really don't know any of the top breeders who have been clean for years who do not test for CAE.

To answer the question, would I purchase from someone that doesn't test? Pretty inexpensive test - so probably not.

BTW, we also only purchase from those we trust, as folks can cheat on CAE tests... unless their vet is pulling the blood and noting tattoos, they could substitute one goats' blood for anothers. Still want the test - at least we will feel that we have done our due diligence.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Unless I know the herd well and their practices I would either want to see CAE test or have the goats tested as a condition of the sale. As long as they agree to that no problem.


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

I think an established herd shouldn't have to re-test the same goats every year, but also be able to provide CAE neg. test results for at least 2-3 years per goat or maybe test everyone every other year? Yes the tests are inexpensive, but really think about it- you buy a goat from a neg. herd you test it comes up negative and then you re-test for the next 10+ years? Just seems silly to me, when you know your goats are going to come up neg. Then of course on the other hand I can see it being abused by the lazy dishonest person, so my thought would be really get to know your breeders. 

After all the fun and exciting experiences I have had this past year (eye roll) I will test every goat that comes on my property and that is my choice regardless where it comes from. It doesn't matter if it is a "name brand" or not. Since I am not an established herd yet and am just closing on my first year I plan to test for a long time, but that's me. I think are experiences make us who we are with our animals.


Lynn


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Sooo, do tell about this new ultrasound?! What did you get?


I dunno. My husband asks every year why we pasteurize. Pearl Valley has fed raw milk and colostrum for 10??? years now -- Jonathan sure has no problems selling goats -- and nothing I have ever bought from him has tested positive. But he still does test every year.

I guess I like to see those tests myself.


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## haeema (Jan 18, 2008)

Well, what do you do when you send off two samples of blood from the same goat to two different labs. The one in Texas came back Negative for cae and the one in Washington State came back with a "low positive"? 

Just wondering.....


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## legacyvalley (Feb 13, 2010)

I would prefer to purchase from people that test annually. I have never asked to see the lab results though, just trusted their word.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

The Nubian breeder here in Montana where I bought a buck and doeling last year tests for CAE, not pregnancy, so I don't think the ultrasound will impact what she does. I also have never preg tested my does because I don't AI and I run a cleanup buck with my herd. When I bloodtest, it's for CAE. I've never been one to spend alot of money on an infant goatling. This has nothing to do with CAE status, but rather I want a good idea of what I'm buying before I spend alot on a goat. If I were to buy a baby kid from a well known breeder, I'd request the dam be tested and if I were buying an older doe I'd request a test on her that I'd be willing to pay for. If a breeder weren't willing to do this because of a new ultrasound machine, then I wouldn't trust that they had tested faithfully prior to that.
The last person to put a deposit on a couple doelings picked them up today. I explained to her that the dams of both were CAE negative and was willing to show her the tests. Though she's had Nubians in the past, and from another breeder I know tests her herd, she asked "what's CAE?" I explained to her what it is and she seemed more interested in that they were from good milking lines than CAE status or show quality/pedigree. I'm glad she doesn't plan to get goats from anyone else.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

haeema said:


> Well, what do you do when you send off two samples of blood from the same goat to two different labs. The one in Texas came back Negative for cae and the one in Washington State came back with a "low positive"?
> 
> Just wondering.....


If you're referring to PAVL in Texas, I wouldn't trust their test. My vet sent blood from a doe I was questioning there and it came back negative. I later sent blood to both WADDL and Biotracking and she was positive. If you're wanting to retest to be sure, send the blood to either WADDL or Biotracking.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

I have likewise had a suspect test from PAVL and when retested we got a different result. I understand that a lab will always have human error but when a lab develops a reputation of having inconsistent results than a breeder's trackrecord will always be called into question when using that lab.

How much does it matter? To me consistency and honesty matters most. I need to know if a breeder does not actually use prevention methods so that I can make my own decisions. If a breeder choses to dam raise, that is fine, if they do not pasteurize due to years of negative tests, fine, but TELL me these things so I can make my own decision. I may still decide to buy from them, but with differenty expectations. I may decide I want more years of test results from a dam that is dam raising--or less is I can be assured that no raw milk products are used. I may decide that is does not concernme that there are CAE animals in the herd if I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that only colostrum from a CAE negative doe is used and perhaps pasteurized cow milk. But TELL me these facts ***honestly*** so I can make the decisions that I feel best with for my farm.

Instead I personally know of farms that claim to practice CAE prevention but who privately will tell you that they no longer feel compelled to do so due to years of negative testing. I cannot argue with that decision. I can and do argue with the decision to not update your webpage to show their current stance or their failure to inform buyers of how the kids are *actually* raised.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Sorry just reread V's post. 
If it is a breeder we have gone through before and trusted, yes.
If it is a breeder we have not known or trusted then no.
Tam


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Tracy I purchased all her tack, the ultrasound machine and her AI equipment is coming via parcel post, the rest by trailer, I didn't want either in the hands of the hauler.

What will be nice about ultrasound will be knowing how many kids are in there, not just positive or negative.

Camille, my experience is completely the opposite, I have never seen a negative test before or after a sale. Tsunami was the first kid I have ever purchased that I was shown a whole herd negative test, like I do, at time of sale. And the only group purchase that included negative paperwork, was the sale of your boers here to Maureen. All my goats are negative, even those purchased, but it is not common practice to show proof of being a negative herd, and in talking to others it is not common practice to ask, if you push your not to sure the goat will be yours. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> but it is not common practice to show proof of being a negative herd, and in talking to others it is not common practice to ask, if you push your not to sure the goat will be yours. Vicki


This is so true. And if you are new to goats like I am, it makes it doubly hard. Who am I to question someone who has years and years of experience? It can be very intimidating.

Good thread. Thanks for this discussion.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki, can you reallly tell how many kids are in there with a home ultrasound? I know someone who has one and she said all it tells her is if there is something in the uterus, She wasn't even sure if it would tell the difference between a true pregnancy and a cloudburst pregnancy. I would think you could also hear heartbeats, but the only reference I have are the machines used on women that I see on TV and those are expensive, fancy ones. Most vets don't even have those.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

There is always the option to request a test at my expense (I am happy to spend $4.00) and that's what I would do if interested in a doe that doesn't have a current CAE but from reputable herd. I haven't been in goats long but it seems like word goes around quickly who has clean stock and who doesn't so I would hope breeders with diseased goats won't last these days. 

How exciting about your new ultrasound machine, you are getting quite fancy on us here, ha !

Jana


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## IndyGardenGal (Jun 11, 2009)

If I were buying from someone I didn't know, and wasn't someone that someone with more knowledge recommended, I do like to see CAE tests. We're still fairly new to goats, and we know to build our reputation, we need to take every extra precaution. 

I think, for us, we would rather spend a bit more money to get our goats from someone that is both recommended and trusted.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

With CAE testing we test every year but test each pen at different times, it gets a little expensive to test all at once. It it easier for us to test one pen at a time, but everyone gets tested once a year for CAE and all new goats get CAE, CL & Johnes tested before they even get close to our herd. We are lucky enough to have a place to hold goats off our property while waiting for test results. We also dam raise some of our kids but before we decide which are dam raised we test both sire & dam. We have not had a pos. test yet but whose to say it wont happen.


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

I personally think it hurt my sales. I have tested CAE and CL negative for years around here but for a couple of years I did not pasteurize the milk. I milked my goat and fed the fresh milk to the babies in a bottle so they would be "bottle raised gentle". You know me. I have tested my goats out the wazoo and they are as clean as a whistle, but still.... I did not get the calls or emails that I had in the past and I think it is because I was not pasteurizing the milk. SO this year I am back to pasteurizing and all that bologne even though it is not necessary and the kids grow out better on raw fresh milk. What causes this? People who don't understand how CAE is transmitted, people who have been lied to and burned in the past, and people who have been convinced by people or mentors who say to NEVER buy a kid that has been raised on raw milk. Would I purchase a kid that has been raised on raw milk? Yes. IF I knew the reputation of the person I am buying from and IF I saw test resuts on the person's whole goat herd and I KNOW they have tested negative for several years. If I did purchase an animal it would go through the regular quaranteen time as usual and I would do my own testing, not once but 2 times from different labs with an understanding that any positive test would result in a full refund. Not pasteurizing the milk and feeding raw to the kids is one thing, but I believe that yearly testing will still be necessary. 

When I sell goats I don't even wait for the people to ask if the goats have been tested. I tell them and I am standing there with a copy of the negative test results for them to take home with them along with their registration papers.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I think it is very important to keep testing, no matter how long your herd has been negative. I wouldn't think that a reputable breeder would mind showng you their CAE tests results, if you asked them. I certainly don't mind showing buyers mine, and in lots of instances, I give them a copy of the test results, if they ask for one. I actually got "burned" and burned bad, by a long time, so called "reputable" breeder, that "claimed" in their sales catalogs, that the herd was negative. Thinking that surely, after being in goats as long as they had, and showing everywhere, their word would be good. Met them in a neighboring state, picked up 3 bred does and a buck for me, and a couple of goats for someone else. Well, when I tested those animals, 3 were positive and 1 was suspect. The folks that bought the other 2 called and said that 1 of theirs was positive and the other suspect. Nothing could really be done about it, because these breeders were selling out totally. So, I kept them until the kidded, kept the kids to recoup my money, and sold the adults to herds that didn't care about CAE, one way or the other. It's sad that we live in a day and time, that you can't just take people's word as honest truth.


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## M.Nivens (Apr 15, 2010)

As someone fairly new to dairy goats (3rd year), here is my 2 cents:
When I bought my first girls I had no idea what cae was. I just wanted a milk goat for our families use and found one on craigslist.
THANKFULLY the seller ended up being a reputable breeder and the girls had been tested and were negative. I recently aquired another doe from a different breeder, she showed me the paperwork before I even asked.. If I were to buy from these breeders again I probably would not ask to see the paperwork necessarily, as I have gotten to know them and the practices that they use (cae prev., testing any new animals, yearly tests,etc.) If they told me that they were no longer testing their herds yearly I would still buy from them.. Because I trust them, and also because I know that THEY are not going to bring an animal into THEIR herd without knowing the cae status. Of course that does kind of go against all of the things that I have read here and on other forums which suggest never buying without a current test in hand.. IMO it DOES matter if you are a "name brand" herd and have a good reputation built up. I would still feel good knowing that you were testing new animals brought in and your herd every couple of years, though.


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

As a relative newbie I also like to see test results but Vicki is right in that many people don't offer to share and even "big names" balk or tell you the test is on your dime. Since I don't know how to draw blood myself, I have the vet do the draw and send to labs - they use UC Davis. I test each doe PRIOR to breeding for CAE and CL. If someone came back positive I'd not breed. So far I only have does but ask that the buck I breed to also have been tested. I've also not kept any kids yet (all wethers last year) but if/when I get a doeling, I will test her prior to breeding as well. Personally I dam raise which is why I want clean does and how a breeder raises (bottle vs dam) doesn't matter to me as much as the test results.


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

As a new breeder, of dairy goats, I learned much of the important facts and details from this forum. I believe in educating yourself as much as possible and frequently ask questions to learn more. IMO I would want to see test results yearly from any herd "popular or not". It shows consistant health management and continually building on a stable reputation. It shows the prospective buyer the seller has an honest interest in their wellfare. On the other hand, I believe heat treated/pasteurized milk fed to kids with repetitive CAE negative tested parents is redundant. It should be posted on the farms website what methods will be used in feeding kids. I agree with LeeAnne... "To me consistency and honesty matters most...but TELL me these things so I can make my own decision." 
Linda


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## Fiberaddict (Jun 4, 2009)

OK......I haven't tested my goats. Most of them were bought from the same farm, who is in the TX Scrapie program, and has tested for years - and now has a closed herd. I do not know if she still tests every year or not, since the herd is closed - and to me, it doesn't matter. I trust her.

The Alpines we bought came from a closed, negative herd - we saw the test results.

The Nubian doeling I bought came from a guy that practices prevention, but who did have some CAE+ goats on his property. We checked - they were kept well away from the kids, so no contamination could occur, they heat-treat (and he explained *how* without us asking and without pausing in the explanation - as if he'd been doing it a while - and he assured us that they do NOT pool the milk.) My doeling came from a CAE- doe, whom he luted so he could be there to ensure no nursing occurred. Was I concerned? Yes....but not as much once we saw his set-up.

So...for me? I'd buy from you, Vicki - you have a good reputation, you're up front with everything, and your herd has been clean for...well, forever. :lol (We don't plan on selling any kids - if we can't use 'em, we'll put them in the freezer. Harsh, but.....farm-bred meat is much tastier than store-bought!)


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

My feelings on CAE are that not too many people I have met actually test for CAE. Lots of big breeders asking big prices in Michigan /Ohio and doing prevention bottle raising, but when I ask the breeders- none do it. Now I am starting to see a few people ask me when I have a goat ad, if I test. I'd say 1 out of every 15 would like to know or they won't purchase. 

Last year I sold a few pregnant does to help cover the winter feed bill. I had no trouble selling them for $225. This year I hard a hard time just selling 1 bred doe for $125. They were all registered Alpines. No one asked if they were tested for CAE either. Just no one buying right now. I feel like the market is tough, and all us goat lovers that do everything for our goats (vaccinate, copper bolus, test, show) makes it a very expensive hobby.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

The Texas Scrapie program is an ear tag. Nothing more.


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## Hollybrook (Jul 17, 2009)

I personally think its overkill statistically 33% Goats have it and 75% of those will remain asymptomatic so lets say you bought an untested doe she turned out to be positive but you practiced prevention (KID REMOVEL, CORD DIPPING, PASTURISING) so in theory her kids could be fine let me also mention you can buy a CAE Neg Goat but they still have CAE Id be more concerned with Listeria your animals can test negative but still have it, you drink the milk you can die or make you wished you were!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Hollybrook said:


> Id be more concerned with Listeria your animals can test negative but still have it, you drink the milk you can die or make you wished you were!


Really? I would think that if they can test negative for Listeria, but still have it, it would be a MAJOR concern to all. Wouldn't there be symptoms? Wouldn't testing for this be par for the course then as should be CAE, CL, Johnnes? Wouldn't the goat(s) die quickly? My only experience is from a doeling this summer.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I always ask if the breeder tests and if I can see the results. I do know of a lady that breeds Nubians in Michigan and she has CAE+ does in her herd and dam raises a lot of her kids, but she is at least up front about it.


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## Fiberaddict (Jun 4, 2009)

Rose, I know that, but to get into the program, they had to agree to test for everything out there. I've seen her past results, so I don't doubt her.....they got in it for the sheep she also raises, but the agent told her they could add the goats if they tested for CAE/Johnnes/I don't know what all else. I know it wasn't cheap (and I don't know if they paid for the tests or if what - didn't ask), but she cares about the health of her animals and jumped right in. I also know they have to allow the agent free access and he pulls blood, too - but I don't know the why's and wherefore's of it.

She wants us to sign up for it, too..and I won't. I...don't want Big Brother knowing how many animals I have, who I sold them to (or put in the freezer) or anything like that. It feels too invasive to me - other people may not feel that way. (And..she can't bring in any does, now - only bucks - if they do, they go back to stage 1 and have to start all over. I don't want to be limited that way, either. )


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Verna, she isn't being truthful to you, or you missunderstood. The scrapie program in Texas is nothing more than an ear tag program, there is no testing for it until death. You can call the number today and have the tags next week. It's about tracking a sick goat or sheep if it goes through auction or is sold to another producers, since most disease is from birth, it proves the animal wasn't born on your place so you don't have to sacrifice 10% of your herd for testing, it goes via tracking back to the original purchaser. With our ADGA tattoos we don't have to use tags. The scrapie program protects your herd, it has nothing to do with big brother, so much of all of this kind of thing is just so much hype. It's the first time we have a program in goats that in an outbreak gives us records that will be taken seriously...when NAIS comes through it will be a database that shows movement of our stock proving our goats don't need to be killed or quarantined if sickness hits our area. 


This is all moot if you really are never going to sell any goats off your place, if you are, test for CAE.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I haven't purchased many goats, I've bought two from you and I know you so I personally would trust I'm going to get a negative animal from you. If I didn't know you, I would still be happy with your word plus testing every other year and your reputation. For me, CL is the scary one.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I either have to know the person or have the goats tested prior to purchase. Don't really care if they test every year or not.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Sorry Verna, not so about Scrapie in TX. It is nothing but a farm registration program with your tags linked to the farm. No testing, NUTHIN. You call them and give them your info and they give you a number on the phone and ship you tags. Period. Shoot, you dont even have to HAVE animals when you call or they could be all on their way in the auction door, they dont care.

Vickie--I have been interested in scanning but stuck on the fence re US after hearing stories of people whose animals were scanned as having nonviable kids or who were told they werent bred so they luted to synchronize heats and they ended up losing kids that appeared perfectly fine. Is your plan to bloodtest before doing anything of the sort, or...? What are your thoughts on that?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I won't be doing anything drastic until I learn how to use the machine. Boer goat folks use them all the time, it is one of the many things reproductively we in the dairygoat industry are pretty far behind with. I remember when that happened to the Binders! Why the person reading the ultrasound is as important as the machine. Vicki


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Didn't similar also happen with Tim Pruitt? I do know that the one time we had a goat ultrasounded (they needed demos at the Houston livestock show) they were right on the money not only with how many kids there were but also pretty much how far she was in her gestation. It was neat.

I still wanna figure out how to use my OB doppler to listen to babies to confirm pregnancy! You'd think with a 3MhZ probe you should be able to hear something! I think I just havent spent enough time fiddling, too much time thinking abut it while doing something else!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I only tested 4 of my does for pregnancy this year--3 because I'd have to dry them off, and the other because I just really wanted confirmation. The other 4, I only tested CAE. With CAE tests at $4 and pregnancy tests at $7.50, that saved me $30 in pregnancy test fees. As it was, I paid $74 for pregnancy testing on 4 does and CAE testing for the entire herd. (and the test results just came back! All negative!  So, for me, if I had the use of ultrasound, I'd still want to blood test. (I only did blood testing for pregnancy because it's cheaper than the ultrasound fee here.)

As far as u/s showing how many kids... well, I guess that's a bit tricky, up to the quality of the equipment, and up to the technician. My vet has always been dead on with whether or not they're pregnant from u/s, but the number is another story. Seems that occasionally if you catch it the exact right time after breeding, you can see more than 2, but on two different occasions, I expected to get twins and did not--once quads and the other triplets. 

So, with money tight this time of year (Santa gets it all!) I'd love to not pay for pregnancy testing (and I'm getting a pretty good eye of being able to tell my own goats w/o a test) but the whole CAE thing... yep. Still will test. And, after I paid the vet $100 to come out and coach me on how to draw blood, $74 for test fees, and $28 to ship the samples... you better believe I'm going to post the results on my website! I paid enough money to advertise it! (I know that's small change compared to what some of y'all pay for testing, but to me, it's a chunk of change!)


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Oh, and ditto on the comments about knowing the breeder and his/her reputation for honesty. There is a particular breeder that could show me negative tests and I wouldn't trust them. Others, I'd trust because I know their level of integrity. But I'd still test them when they got here.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

When I buy goats from a local breeder, no I do not ask for the results. I trust her. She's a friend, she'd never lie to me. 
I never asked to see results from Tim either. (Tim Pruitt on here)

When dealing with someone I dont know at all...yes I will ask about CAE status and look at the does/bucks and see if there's knee issues or udder issues on the does. 

I do not test for CAE. I know where my goats came from. And the ones that have been raised on prevention were raised by me. I had my 3 dam raised does tested back in Jan. But that's it. All of my goats except 1 was either raised on prevention by me or bought from a friend who tests and they were either negative or came from negative does.

This past kidding season, I had all the kids sold before they were even born...so not testing didn't hurt my sales any. 
And I doubt the not testing will be the issue this next kidding season, its going to be the economy that is the issue.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Wow Amy, I think you would be shocked to know the major herds who have CAE, who don't test, one who sent a positive buck back home as early as 2 years ago because he was positive after testing. Nobody knows another persons herd...you need to get some tests for yourself.

I would never have believed the person I started with in goats would have lied to me either...I would never have believed that a Priest who owned a dairy would lie on his DHIR and have my girls star stripped....I would never have believed a local breeder would go to another farm and breed her doe and sell me the yearling who everyone (but me because I was new) knew her paperwork was fake....I would never have believed that a very well know doe is in paperwork of many breeders and although we will never be able to proove it know she used paperwork from a herd she bought out and not her own....I would never have believed that a major nubian herd in Texas would get caught using paperwork of their dead buck...so...lieing about CAE? Yep. So know for yourself, and then don't test or let kids nurse. But at least test once. Vicki


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

So my question is, if people can fake a CAE test how do you buy a goat that you hope is CAE negative? I think the only way is to pull blood at the breeder's farm, ship the vial yourself, wait for the test results and then go back and buy the goat if she's clear. I know most goat farmers around here would think I was crazy if I asked to do this at their premises. Especially if they already tested for CAE and had results. I don't trust anyone now, with all the stories. 

Could someone pull blood on a goat that is known to be CAE negative and send it in pretending it was another goat's blood? I guess anyone could then say their herd is CAE negative if they use that method. I would have to test a prospective goat myself.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Dana said:


> Could someone pull blood on a goat that is known to be CAE negative and send it in pretending it was another goat's blood? I guess anyone could then say their herd is CAE negative if they use that method. I would have to test a prospective goat myself.


Absolutely they could. When blood is sent in, the test site only needs some kind of numbering system or id #. It doesn't have to have any relation to the goat. I can test "Goat A" and send the tube labelled #1, ABCD, and I'll get results for #1, ABCD. Only I know who ABCD is.

One hopes this doesn't happen, but......


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

One way around this is to pay for the vet fees. I have taken 3 does to the vet, had the vet read tattoos to match paperwork, pull the blood and send the test in herself. I then gave permission to the buyer to talk to my vet about the does. Normally a vet would never talk about your animals to anyone else, but with permission they did. With the lab sending the info only to my vet, she contacted me and then the buyer when they were negative. Another thing I do is give people enough time on contract, to get the animal home and get them tested for CAE. Vicki


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

That's just the point - an owner of CAE negative herd will have no problem providing the records, so why not ask? The only people offended are those who have something to hide.


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

Or the ones who lie, like Vicki said earlier.


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## lirette (May 31, 2010)

I am a little confused. Does anyone one know how ADGA stands on CAE? We aren't required to show anything but a health cert. for a show, and I only had to do that for one show last year. CAE isn't always visible so we do have to rely on blood. And the other thing is that no one seems to know exactly how it is transmitted. Milk, colostrum, breeding, sharing feeders, butting heads????
I agree with Vicki when it comes to some of the breeders out there. Happened to a real good friend of mine who spend a whole lot of money to start her herd. I have never required blood results when I bought goats. I do ask about the status, if known, then I test myself. Its really a buyer beware in my opinion. Then again I can't afford to spend $1000 on a goat. Also if you are purchasing a bottle baby......... ?? 6 months to a year for real results???? Mistakes are made and lies are told. 
So for me, yes I would purchase untested goats. Price doesn't affect status. Instinct and personal relationship is your best bet.
Next thing would be if you sell a bottle baby, do you know how safe the milk is that they are feeding? That would fall on the sellers reputation.
I guess I am too new at this or I think too much. kellie


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

"One way around this is to pay for the vet fees"-Vicki

As an honest breeder, after showing my paperwork, I will encourage potential buyers to have a vet come test them before purchase. It will do one of three things.
1. They will trust me and my tests and purchase the animal
2. They will have the goats retested and go from there
3. They will find it all too much work and bother and then go waste the few dollars it takes to test and go to the auction ( :really).
If its for kids I let them know they can have babies tested, it only shows that they either did or did not receive CAE milk. Not that they have it or don't.
Tam


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

ADGA doen't ban CAE positive animals from the show ring. What they do is fault or disqualify animals displaying symptoms, depending on the severity. An asymptomatic goat can go on to become a champion. They don't ban CL either. It's up to the goat club sponsoring the show to determine what they will allow. Our goat club will not allow abcesses or scars consistant with CL unless a veterinarian tests the goat and sends a certificate stating she is CL negative. As for CAE - no, we don't want our goats exposed to it, but we don't require testing either. We have a hard enough time sanctioning breeds already without requiring negative CAE tests to show. 
I know some breeders lie, but it's not always lies that end us up with positive animals, but rather, assumption. Over the years I've been breeding goats, I've bought a few positive does from a woman who used to have a commercial dairy. She would test incoming goats if she was uncertain of their origin/background, but didn't whole herd test and was upfront about it. I bought a doeling from her that was out of a doe she bought from a herd she know tests negative. At a year old, she developed swelling in her knees and tested positive. Best I can figure is that because she was dam raised, she latched onto another doe which was untested and contracted CAE. Another two does I bought from her were out of a spotlight sale doe who had to be tested prior to the sale. Though my friend never tested the spotlight sale doe, I know she was positive because she developed a hard udder and all the kids who had her colostrum tested positive. I asked about this breeder OT on this forum and no one was concerned with them, I then went to the breeder of the spotlight sale doe and discussed their CAE status with her. She said they do test and have had negative animals for years, but that people have tried to sabotage them a couple times and that someone may have done this to the doeling at the sale. What this all means to me is that if I buy an older doe from my friend, I will blood test her before doing so and if I buy a doe kid, I'll blood test the dam. My friend understands and is willing to let me do this.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

> She said they do test and have had negative animals for years, but that people have tried to sabotage them a couple times and that someone may have done this to the doeling at the sale.


While that might be true, I would want to see current (as in the past year) negative tests on all the animals on that farm before accepting a statement like that at face value.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

:yeahthat A Breeder should have a book with tests in test date arrangements.
Tam


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We certainly do know how CAE is spread. 99.99% of the time they catch it from nursing infected colostrum. Blood and milk is a miniscule amount of spread. To knowingly affect a doe at spot light sale you would have to have a FRESH blood sample from a doe who is positive and inject it into a negative doe....bolongna! Even feeding CAE positive milk to an older kid isn't a high percentage way of giving CAE to it, in fact we never had a does milk tests positive like we did colostrum.

The virus is dead in colostrum and blood once it dries, so passing it on the farm would have to be blood to blood contact with open wounds, like in a dog attack, like males butting over and over, like kids busting their lips and gums on lambars, anyone who has bed a lambar has seen foaming up milk/blood from agressive older kids nursing, especially bucklings.

I didn't start this converstation about not ever testing, it was about those with years of negative tests, that give copies of tests to buyers, still having to test yearly...it floors me that anyone on my forum would not have baseline tests for thier herd, or are still fooling themselves as to how their doe is positive, it came that way from the breeders home! Vicki


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

As a buyer, if I did not trust the breeder, I would request a test on the animal before purchase.
When a herd has been testing for a long time, has negative results to back it up and still uses CAE Prevention, I probably would not require the testing.
It does seem strange to whole herd test year after year, as long as any incoming animals are being tested and the testing is trusted.
It all comes down to trust and I don't think there is a single one of us in goats for long who has not been burned at least once.

Twice I have purchased goats that were "raised on Prevention" (though in the second case she said she had switched the doeling to raw goat's milk from a "test negative" doe) and both have tested positive for CAE. I drove to KY for the first. Did not request that he be tested because this was back in 2005 before we even tested.
We are slowly trying to rid our herd of CAE. I sold the majority of my personal line this year. We finally have some CAE Prevention raised replacement kids and three of my older does have been shipped from our first positive testing doe (she was 9 when she showed signs). We also lost Snow White, our 10+ year old non-symptomatic doe. We have two beautiful doelings from her from this year and both tested negative.
We have a system to deal with CAE here that has worked well so far. This area, not many have a clue about it, nor do they care. I am usually teaching perspective buyers about it.
Whole herd testing for us, is far too costly. We whole herd tested about three years ago. We spot test each year to see where things are and I test suspects. I have not added too many new goats in the past year. I think three and one of them was a Prevention raised doe from our herd. New goats are tested to determine status the next time we test.
I hope to whole herd test next year, assuming I can find solid employment again. 
I would like to know and I am interested to see if any of Snow White's "negative" dam raised daughters have converted yet. They are treated as though they are positive despite the negative tests (multiple negatives).


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

> I bought a doeling from her that was out of a doe she bought from a herd she know tests negative. At a year old, she developed swelling in her knees and tested positive. Best I can figure is that because she was dam raised, she latched onto another doe which was untested and contracted CAE.


This is a good point. I would not want a kid from a herd that dam raises without the entire herd being negative. It's not an unusual thing for a kid to nurse on another doe. It's very common.


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

I bought many of my goats this year. The babies I bought from a negative farm so they said and I took their word for it. That was before I knew about this forum. I have since tested them (at 8 mos old) and they are CAE and CL negative. Lucky for me. After reading for months and listening to great advice here on DGI I purchase my goats differently. Even if it is a top breeder. The buck I bought I tested before I bought him. It was *my* stipulation of the agreement even though they had negative paperwork. I pulled the blood and I sent in and paid for the tests. He came back clean so I bought him. I don't want to risk my whole herd to a careless mistake that could have been prevented. If I buy from you I will ask for paperwork regardless of your herd name and fame. That's just me. IMO if you want to skim money somewhere do it somewhere else but not on the testing.

To answer Vicki's question: The money I spend on testing my herd yearly is an investment of proactive management and will continue to show a precedence of honesty for future clients. 
Linda


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## rebeccasminis (Aug 24, 2010)

Here is an opinion from a greenhorn...not that anyone wants it but I have a feeling this all falls under the common sense rule. If you buy a goat and do not test it is no ones fault but your own that you have CAE. If the bit of money for tests is too much to swallow then maybe you should not have goats anyway? I raise goats, chickens, ducks and I have two Jersey cows. One was born and raised here, got her basic vaccinations and is healthier than any one yr old heifer than I have ever seen...The other came at 3 months old has been sickly the whole time and is only just now beginning to put weight on...She is literally a free calf, dropped at my feet and told good luck! Even though she was free she was tested and vaccinated for EVERYTHING, I do not wish to bring anything in that would force me to put my baby to sleep or to get rid of her. The same goes for my does, and even the two bucks I have, one Nigerian and one Nubian. Everyone is tested for everything and I am by no means a "large brand name" in any sense of the word. I am no independently wealthy nor do I have gobs of money laying aorund, but if anything is worth doing then it is worth doing right. Trust is one thing, but I dont have enough trust in anyone to bet the lives of all my livestock that an animal is free of some disease that could prove disastrous, isnt this how we got to this place anyway? No one wanted to bother with testing or trusted someone else had done it? I use my animals for dairy, meat, eggs and all around self sufficiency, therefore it is imperative they be healthy. I will test everyone, and I admit to not testing every year but I will test every other year and anyone new coming in is tested, qurantined and retested, may be I am too careful but everyone here is healthy and happy so I will keep doing what works for me.  Thanks for letting me add my few cents worth, I love reading what everyone has to say and have learned a lot from everyon.
Rebecca


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

:yeahthat


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Rebecca, of course we want you to answer, when you ask a question you do expect everyone to answer the question in the vein of how it effects them. V


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I think all of us feel that way Rebecca! It is just that sometimes new livestock owners are intimidated and worried about insulting the 'big kids' as my DH calls them so they trust thinking that they have earned their trust by being a known name or a herd with longevity. 

I come at it from 2 sides of the fence.
I want current negative status on a doe which I will pay for and will accept current negative status on the dam of a buckling since youngstock tests are questionable any way. But at the same time I personally only provide negative results on First Freshening here. They get tested once and once only but buyers are free to arrange any thing they would like tested before purchase. This is because if you come here to buy you are standing in the middle of 5 going on 6 generations of disease free animals with several elders looking like 5 year olds and so I personally know they are negative.I also have continued negatives in many other herds. If you want to prove status to yourself beyond my provisions I can do nothing but respect you for it !! 
This has been a great thread.

Lee


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## rebeccasminis (Aug 24, 2010)

Well then I believe that maybe we should approach it on a situational idea? Having asked for tests and seeing that many generations of disease free animals would certainly give me piece of mind. However trust is something that is earned as well as being expected and I cant imagine staking my animals lives on the word of someone whom I may not trust? I have gotten my animals from people who have admitted to having CAE in their herd, the animals I bought did not come from that stock, and their dams were negative, they were also on a CAE negative prevention plan, but I still tested them this year before breeding. I think questions and research are the only way to go about this, knowing as much as you possibly can is the only defense you have. I agree this thread is awesome, I am learning and realizing that it isnt always good to just ump into anything.
Rebecca


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

I have sold a lot of Boer goats and most buyers do not even know about goat diseases or ask until I tell them. If they buy from me, I ask if they want fresh new testing of CAE and CL before they pick up the goat . I like to do vet testing to A&M before the buyer picks up goats but I need about 2 weeks or less for the results , this also gives me time to do all my paper work, grooming,shots and worming . I feel this gives me peace of mind insight on my herd health thru the year . I want the buyer to be happy and I wont sell a sick or diseased goat . I dont sell or test goats less than 3-4 mo. old because the test are not accurate.I am proud of our herd and proud to show our goats, sell them and always talk about them. I do this with my dairy girls also as they run with the Boer herd. I split the vet test cost with buyer and both buyer and myself has peace of mind and happy. This is a cheap price to start right with building your new herd of quality disease free goats .


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

Well, I don't know if this is hijacking the thread but...
How do you do the testing when most breeders use pre-purchasing with deposits?
By the time you get the testing done on one of their does and bucks someone else could have reserved that breeding!
Linda


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Unless it's someone who doesn't sell their goats quickly, when buying infants it is a huge amount of trust. With older stock purchases asking for a current CAE negative test on your dime, should stop the sale of the animal unless it comes back positive, in which case they know you are not interested. Recently I sent $100 via paypal to a gal to test a buck for CAE and G6S, my deposit was what ever was left, if positive for either than my $100 was refunded. That is pretty cut and dried... I know another time in trying to get this done to another buck who was going to be purchased by 3 of us on this forum, the breeder said "it was jumping through hoops" she declined to test, we declined to buy. And it shouldn't be any more difficult than that. Kids are harder, most of us pool colostrum, which mean whole herd negative tests are super important, because the kid didn't just get colostrum from mom. 

Goat purchases can have all sorts of snags that nobody knows is going to happen, why you get it in writing, why you save emails, why you deal with only those, who others have not had a nitemare dealing with. And when you get a really good juicy story about a breeder, check it out with them, or with others who have purchased from them, because really good juicy stories are either known by everyone, or they are lies. More important to me is....are the goats healthy, are her promises kept, can I have an ongoing dialogue with them...when yes I don't care about the stories, if no, than I won't purchase. Ask another breeder about the person, I recently was asked and said "She has excellent stock, tested for everything" but if one thing happens it will turn into the nitemare of your life...warned the newer person is still going to chance it, ask for a contract and keep all emails...maybe that will help 

It's hard dealing with new folks sometimes, they don't know the code of conduct that normally is taken for granted...why I do contracts, and especially in the south where if there is a problem, I don't want husband who I have never spoke to, sicked on me, and if he is than I can show him the contract and emails. Contracts also mean lots of conversation back and forth, which helps with newer folks. For myself I emailed, sent a deposit, and the goat was flown, I called to say thanks and he is beautiful...that is a pretty typical purchase for me. Vicki


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