# Doeling staggering a little...



## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Tomorrow she will be 7 weeks old. 

She is getting 3 16oz bottles per day. A pinch (1/8 tsp) of baking soda in 1 bottle per day.Free choice alfafa, minerals and grain. Normally I put a cup of grain into their feeder for 6 kids and will go out throughout the day to replenish. This morning I put 2 cups instead of 1, but there is still a lot left in the trough. It doesn't seem reasonable that she's bloating... 

I don't recall if she was this way when I went out initially this morning. She was running across the yard and I noticed her kind of stumble. Also noticed that she is holding her head to one side and occasionally kicking at her stomach. When she walks, she is holding her head off to the side. Like... her head is tracking on a parallel plane. Her stomach does not feel tight or swollen. She is not grinding her teeth. 

No CD&T Toxoid given. Dam was given CD&T about 2 weeks prior to kidding. Injected with Ivomec+ on 5/26. Just finished a 5 day course of Sulmet.

No C&D anti-toxin on hand. Feed store opens at 8.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Temperature is 103.1.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

2 cc C&D anti-toxin administered SQ.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I would be giving this doeling thiamin or fortified B-Complex. 
Not to say this could not be a sickness but goat polio is usually the cause.
103.1 may be a normal range for your kids, if it was higher, like 104 then I would suspect sickness. 
Tam


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

&*%&^%&* 

I had to milk my does at 8AM and sent my mother to the feed store. I wrote down specifically C&D Antitoxin and told her *NOT* the toxoid. 

My mother gave her 2 cc CD&T toxoid!!! 

Can I give her the C&D Antitoxin at this point???


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

I'll give her some fortified B. Do you know offhand if B affects the absorption of another vitamin or mineral? 

They do have access to Right Now - Onyx minerals with yeast and kelp added.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Thiamin... 2.5 cc/100lbs. For a 25lb doeling... would I give .6 cc?? Last year I was giving Doughnut 2-3cc when treating for coccidiosis.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Update: She is drinking her bottle normally. Nibbling on hay. Poop is normal. She is cudding.

She is still off... seeming depressed and standoffish. A bit slow and uncoordinated. I note a swelling of the glands at her throat. Not like bottle jaw, under the mandible, but the point where her head meets her throat. 

I called my vet an hour ago, no response yet.

I gave her 2cc Fortified Vitamin B this morning and 1.2cc of the same at 2PM.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

If she has swelling in her brain, you will need to giver her some Dexamethasone.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

I gave her .2 cc banamine. I have no Dexamethasone. 

I found this... I had missed that it caused brain swelling. I wish I had known this earlier in the day... I might have been able to reverse that quicker.

"An anti-inflammatory will help reduce the swelling. It is a prescription only medicine you can get from your vet. With goat polio, the brain swells similar to a brain injury. Reducing the swelling of the brain until the B1 treatment has time to reverse the condition can help prevent permanent damage and death. "


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Causes of thiamine deficiency include feeding moldy hay or grain, using amprollium which is a thiamine inhibitor (brand name CoRid) when treating coccodiosis, feeding molasses-based grains which are prone to mold (horse & mule feeds), eating some species of ferns, sudden changes in diet, the dietary stress of weaning, and reactions to the de-wormers thiabendazole and levamisole. Each of these conditions can suppress Vitamin B1 production. The usage of antibiotics destroys flora in the rumen and can cause thiamine deficiency. It is important to repopulate the gut with live bacteria after using antibiotics or diarrhea (scour) medications.

None of this is applicable for this doeling. 

Could it be from straw bedding? It rained yesterday and the barn floors get wet. They have large areas of raised flooring (pallets)... so always a dry place for them to sleep. But... it rained yesterday... would this happen overnight? I don't recall her acting off last night. I don't even think she was off when I gave her the morning bottle. I changed their straw bedding like 3 days ago... lined the stall with lime... powdered fresh straw with DE. (then promptly fluffed all the straw to get rid of the dust... maybe next time, not so much... but I got rid of most of it...)


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

She could possibly get polio from a variety of things such as being a piggy and eating more of the grain than her pen mates or being sensitive to something in the pasture. I once sold a buckling to a family and he had chronic problems with polio. The vet told them to eliminate grain and feed hay only. Another kid got polio after her owner took her to an event for children and she ate different grass than they had in their yard. If you have no dex, you can also use banamine to reduce brain swelling. That's what my vet has folks use.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

How is she this morning, Frankie?

I'd call your vet and get some Dexamethasone and straight Thiamin (always good to have on hand).


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

She is still weak and uncoordinated. I gave her another 2cc shot of Vitamin B at 6AM along with another .2 cc Banamine. I have been talking with my vet and she had me give her some penicillin this morning at 7AM. I followed that up with some ProBios in her 9AM bottle. 

She seems more perky after the penicillin. The swelling in her glands has markedly improved. Don't know if that's from the banamine or the penicillin. Probably both. 

I asked my vet about an Rx for dexamethasone and she is concerned about administering it to such a young doeling. She seems to feel the Banamine is safer. She said if I don't see marked improvement by noon, that I need to bring her in and she'll decide on whether to administer dex.

Thank you for asking, Cindy.  A sick baby is a terrible thing to have to deal with. For the first time since this started, I do feel like she's going to pull through this.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

If she improves with the penicillin then she most likely has listeriosis (about the only way to tell is by response to treatment).

Improve with thiamine (or large does of Fortified B-complex) = Polio
Improve with thiamine and Penicillin = Listeriosis

Keep up with the penicillin every day.
Increase the amount of the fortified B-complex - if she were mine she would get about 10ccs. If you can get thiamine from your vet, do so and then dose her accurately.
1/2 doses of banamine - AM/PM to help with the swelling.

Goats can find and nibble on bedding that was there from the dawn of time...We have had one case with a mature doe - pregnant at that. She came through fine, as did the kids/pregnancy. Where or how she got it is still a mystery.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Thank you, Camille!!

I talked to the vet at noon and was advised to keep up with all I am doing, except she told me to cut back the Vitamin B from every 6 hours to every 12 hours. She also said that I could switch the B shots to SQ and up the dosage to 3cc... I was wondering if I could go to 5, and glad you posted what you would give. 

So... you think I should do two .1cc shots of banamine rather than one .2cc shot? 

I was concerned earlier about the number of shots I am having to give her. Suggestions?


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

It may bother you to have to give her so many shots, but every 4 hours is the protocol for thiamine - and hence for the B-complex.

B-complex is great - any that she doesn't need she will just pass in her urine, so better to have a little too much rather than not enough.

When we had a doe get polio (having never heard of it) we were giving 10-12 ccs of Fortified B-complex - sub Q and IM (at the suggestion of a long time goat breeder), every 4 hours so twice what is being suggested. This was a mature Boer doe, so she weighed about 200 lbs.

Yes, I would switch to SubQ but would probably not cut back the dosage or the time between shots - every 4 hours is the protocol. 

The reason for splitting the banamine is so that the anti-swelling benefits stay in her system longer. If she is showing signs of improvement then once a day is probably okay.

She is staying on the course of antibiotics for the duration, right?


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Oh... okay. This is a 25lb doeling. So 10cc would be way overkill. The vet mentioned I could give her up to 5cc. That's what I gave her last night, hoping for a dramatic turn around by morning, but no dice. 

I gave her another 5cc this morning. I had been giving every 6 hours.

And yes to her staying on the penicillin. Just gave her 1cc pro pen g, .1 cc banamine and 5cc Vit B.

I want to say she is improving, but perhaps only marginally. At the very least... she seems to be stable. She's still eating. Still up and alert. She definitely has interest in the world around her and fighting this. The swelling of her glands was more pronounced than last night at 6AM, but by the time I went out to feed them at 9AM, I noted the swelling had gone down slightly. I gave the shots at 9AM - second dose of penicillin for her, so I am HOPING to see a change for the better this afternoon. 

What do you think about drenching some of this B into her? Maybe like every other dose? To save her from so many shots?


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Frankie,

It sounds like your doe is doing better which is great news. Just for informational purposes I recently had to give Dex to a similar sized buckling (for a different problem), he may have been 30 pounds. I gave a total of 9 mg orally the first afternoon, 6 mg orally the next morning and a 2 mg shot that afternoon and then 2 mg shots daily for 5 days without a problem.

You can read about it in this thread if you want: http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f19/bottlejaw-2-month-old-kids-bloody-noses-33683/


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Has she been on strict prevention, worms and coccidiosis? The toxins from these can cause brain swelling and also if you're in a copper deficient area she may need copper bolused. Copper helps to prevent brain inflammation from toxins. The B 1 can help also but just saying this incase there is another root cause.... been there done that with my kids who were staggering and a couple had seizures.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Yes to both, Laverne. She got Ivomec + on 5/26 and had just recently finished second round of Sulmet treatment. 

I want to bolus her, but I am afraid to do that right now. Would it be safe to do so? 

I gave the kids a second dose of Ivomec+ today and did not dose her for the same reason. I am worried about adding more meds to the mix. 

I did a fecal the other day on a pen mate and saw very few coccidia.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

You need good rumen development to bolus. I don't give them until 3 months. Before that I would give a multimin shot for copper.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Thank you, thank you, Ashley!

Update: Holding steady. I am not seeing any great improvements except that the swelling in her glands has gone down significantly. Still slightly swollen, but markedly improved. Also, she is talking again - I noticed this yesterday afternoon. Answering when I call out her name. This morning, she was the first to greet me, but then she tends to hang out at the door of the kid barn. Still terribly weak and uncoordinated. Wheeling a bit more than yesterday, which I am not sure is a sign of improvement or further deterioration. 

Still eating well.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

You have to understand that you are giving so much B-complex so that she can get a decent amount of thiamine. Heck, we give our kids 2ccs of Fortified B-complex at the end of a round of cocci prevention, as a polio PREVENTION. Treatment would be a lot more.

But your choice - I think that you would see quicker improvement. I know you feel badly for her (#of shots) but that is better than the alternative and she will get over it. Seriously. And giving her more b-complex in each shot does not mean more shots.

Please note that the Boer doe we were treating with Fortified B-complex (until we could get thiamine from the vet) was getting 24 ccs of B-complex every 4 hours (12 SubQ and 12 IM).


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Do you think the Sulmet brought this on? 

I have been keeping up with the shots and have increased the dosage. Did not move to 12 hour schedule.

I just ran a fecal on her and glad to see a very low parasite load.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

If it was Polio, then yes, a possibility. Listeriosis - probably not.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Coming late to this thread, but there's no need to give a 7 week old kid Ivomec Plus as a dewormer. Use regular Ivomec injectable, orally, or even Zimecterin horse paste. Regarding Banamine, it will probably not be nearly as effective for brain swelling as dexamethosone. Nor will multi-B be as effective as pure thiamine. The polio treatment protocol given to me by a small ruminent vet here at Texas A&M years ago was 4.5 ccs of thiamine per 100 lbs of goat every six hours and 4.5 ccs of dex per 100 lbs of goat once every 12 hours. Polio can be caused by any number of things, some you might not even know about. We once had a Boer-cross wether that had polio shortly after being surgically castrated by the vet. Since he was already at the vet's office, he was treated immediately and made a full recovery within several days. We first learned about this strange disease process almost 20 years ago when our first Nubian buck had what we thought was urinary calculi. We didn't know our local vet at that time so we took him to the large animal clinic at A&M where they, too, thought he had a blockage. After he went into convulsions they realized they had something else on their hands so they treated him with IV thiamine and he made a rapid and full recovery. There was an interesting article in Dairy Goat Journal a month or so ago about a youth who had a goat that had Listeriosis and the lengths he and his family went to to treat her.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Update: Clair has made an obvious turn around and is doing much better today. Her carriage has improved significantly. The swelling in her glands has gone down almost completely. Yesterday she was running and leaping, tho not sticking the landings very well. She's still weak and uncoordinated, but nothing like she was. I am continuing with the treatment. Tho not sure how long I need to do so. 

I have another doeling here who is presenting with swollen glands. My first inclination was to start treatment on her immediately, but I decided to just keep a close eye on her. I am not even sure what I am treating for here. It *seems* that Clair responded to the penicillin treatment. But then... by the time I started her on the penicillin, she had already been receiving a few doses of the Vitamin B. The swollen glands could be any number of things... 

And thanks for the info, Caroline re: Ivomec+. I will look for that article in DGJ. Thank you.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

How often should I be giving ProBios with all this penicillin?


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Glad to hear she is improving! I would just give it once a day if it were me. More won't hurt though.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Glad she is doing better, Frankie.


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

Click here for a picture of Clair atop goat mountain today! Proof positive that she's on the mend!

Thank you all so much for your help and guidance.


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