# Management for good production



## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi y'all
I always seem to be hearing that this feed or that feed is wonderful :/. I have a goat who dislikes molasses in her feed so many of the dairy goat feeds are out for us. Pellets concern me as I can't tell what's in them :nooo. I've been feeding oats, shredded beat pulp,sunflower seeds as grain on the milk stand, nice alfalfa hay( from WY or CO) free choice, alfalfa pellets twice a day, techmaster complete free choice. I also copper bolus & use Bo-Se. I've heard I should be using a higher protien feed or that I should also be giving grass hay. My does have done well- most have hit what they need for their * & last year we had 2 does make top 10, but I wonder if they could be doing even better . Sara- you always seem to have a lot on top 10- what do you do? or what do others of y'all do?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

With nice alfalfa hay why would you also need grass hay? When feeding for production it is important to have protein, do you need more with the alfalfa pellets and alfalfa hay? Soybeanmeal is readily available in Texas and the does love it, as is the nutritional supplement knock offs of calfmanna, head start, Wendlands supplement pellet etc...plus you get the boost of having a wonderful vitamin and mineral pellet in your mix on the milkstand twice a day. I would use a combo of it and if I could get it local and not have to drive to Bryan (roasted soybeans).

Our lactation pellets and premixes around us are simply crap. Bakery products, molassas, fish and feather meal as proteins.

Also I don't need to bolus my milkers using techmaster. V


----------



## Daniel Babcock (May 28, 2008)

I have 'heard" there are some issues with feeding goats soy bean products. Are these concerns founded?


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2008)

Pam,

Here is how I feed my does. Before people start jumping all over me for feeding this way...you have to remember...you are feeding a rumen first and an animal second.

Morning milking...does that are above avg in the milk get 2 pounds of 16% grain mix. If they are milking over 20% above herd avg then they get bean meal on top of it also. If they are milking below herd avg then they just get what the one before them left or nothing at all. Milking starts at 6am. 8am...they get 1 pound of barley as a whole herd and alfalfa hay. Noon...they get some alfalfa pellets as a group and a good grass hay. 3pm...come back with about 60% grass and 40% alfalfa hay. Then night milking at 530pm the same grain as the morning. After the night milking they are giving a grass alfalfa mix hay again. Plus, 1 pound of rolled barley. 

Ken


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Soy has been the protein of choice in livestock forever. Corn is the energy of choice. Putting human ideas onto our livestock that we don't even know if they are facts in humans, makes for very expensive to raise livestock.

The same amounts of estrogens found in soy and in some cases more is found in clover and other feed stuffs. There simply isn't a better improver of protein.

Ken, when I milked alot more goats we also fed like this, small meals throughout the day especially in our heat...not feeding at all in mid day and feeding early morning and late late nights small meals before and after milking. Vicki


----------



## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

Ok, with no more Bluebonnet feed's, what are you feeding Vicki ??? I cant get Beet pulp or Soybean meal here in Tyler and it's mostly pellet feed .


----------



## Suthrn (Oct 23, 2008)

It would be a way to drive, but not too terribly bad, if you can't find a feed store in Tyler who will order what you need, we have a feed store in Diana, Tx which is about 15 miles N. of Longview that would order what you need. Jody is the lady who runs the feed store and honestly will order anything you need. I have gotten beet pulp from her a lot. 
Linda/Suthrn
I live at Ore city/Lake of the Pines
waving :crazy to another "east Texan"


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2008)

I feed a mixture of COB (heavy on the oats), BOSS and an added ADE mineral supplement. 

I really think the key to our milk production in the quality alfalfa hay we feed. We have purchased hay from the same guy for 10 years - 25 tons a year delivered an unloaded into our hay shed. This is the best hay in the area with high RFV and protein. 

We also feed a wonderful grass hay that is home grown. The goats really love this grass hay and I also think it plays a part in overall health and milk production. We usually feed our own oat hay as well, but the last couple years the growing conditions were not conducive to a good crop and we didn't get much off of our field.

A quality mineral, sea kelp and sodium bicarb are offered free choice, not to mention several sources of fresh, clean water.

We really don't do anything out of the ordinary. I prefer to keep things simple. 

Sara


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Ours is very similar to Sara's feed program. Except we can not grow any hay for ourselves. 

Our main hay is high quality alfalfa, but we do give them a snack of high quality 2nd cutting orchard grass hay several days a week. Goats are browsers, so we figure they may get something out of the grass hay they can't get in the alfalfa.

Curious, Sara, is the ADE supplement a dry supplement you top dress with or mix into your grain mix? Do you order it from your feed store or something else? Sounds like something I would like to tweak into my program.

Ditto on the quality mineral (including Diamond V yeast) with kelp added. We also offer baking soda free choice. Our dairy goats go through a LOT more mineral and baking soda than our Boers do, except when the Boers are about 1 month from kidding and the 8-10 weeks their kids are nursing. 

Simple is best! 

Camille


----------



## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

OK_ so I guess I'll quit worrying so much . I may add some of the grass hay free choice to what I do. I currently get really nice alfalfa thru some people who supply many of the big horse ranches around & they get it from WY or CO- it's pricey but is such nice quality & usually comes with a high protien analysis. They also bring it & stack it for me . I have sudan for my dry does & I may start offering some of that to my milkers too. I wish I could feed mine more often, but since I work a real job to support my goat addiction , twice a day will have to do.


----------



## chewie (Jul 26, 2008)

so are you folks adding soybeans/meal/pellets to your feeds? my current milker is dropping production fairly fast--and i am beginning to think its me, as this is the second one to do this. or it could simply be the time of year, i just dont' know. i feed oats, corn, boss, and pulp (for now, but think my source is also drying up) would i do well to add soy? soymeal is possible here, would this be something to use?

our grain bin had a case of the weevels, which eat the 'heart' out of the kernels of corn or oats. they are gone now, but i think they may have done enough damage to ruin the grain? i am planning to buy a bag from town to see a diff. i worry that the grain is now basicly 'empty' filler. anyone else have this issue?


----------



## shawhee (Jun 28, 2008)

I would like to know about adding whole soybeans to feed program?? Roasted or green? Has anyone done this?

Thanks,
Shawna


----------



## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

Saying Hi !! :crazy Linda/Suthrn 

The feed stores around here change feed types, but for now I feed a All stock pellet 12%,Alfalfa pellets 17% and a small amount of sweet feed type with yeast and other good stuff in it , so far it's worked well , now if I can find good hay type that they will eat :/


----------



## Daniel Babcock (May 28, 2008)

I agree with Shawna I am interested in how best to supplement my feed with soybeans, maximizing protien etc. What is the optimum protien % of feed?


----------



## Secondairy (Aug 12, 2008)

> I would like to know about adding whole soybeans to feed program?? Roasted or green? Has anyone done this?


The grain mix that I am using calls for whole roasted soybeans. I have only been using this grain mix for a few months and I have already seen amazing results. The goats have more energy in general, their coat condition has improved tremendously (It was good before, but it is now much better), and my two slow to grow dry yearlings have gained not only 20+lbs in weight, but also a few more inches in height and length. My mix averaged about $16.00 per 50lb, but I also had it milled when the BOSS and roasted soybeans were at peak price (August). Now that the beans have come in, the price should drop some. The best thing about this feed is that they were actually eating it completely! When I was using commercially available packaged feeds, our goats were refusing the pellets (this was for nearly a year), and overall body condition was faltering. Now that I have everyone on my new feed, I don't think I will ever change it unless I have a problem accessing the ingredients. I will also never go back to a non whole grain ration again.

Just my experience!

Kelly


----------



## Daniel Babcock (May 28, 2008)

So Kelly what is the grain mix you are using?


----------



## chewie (Jul 26, 2008)

there are no roasted beans, only meal. would that be a good thing?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Here neither chris, so yes SBM is fine, my girls love it...and soybeanmeal pellets are Calf Manna and the knock off of calf manna that we all talk about. Vicki


----------



## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I have to throw the curve in the soy bean product discussion. As quoted here by Trauger Groh of the PPNF Health Journal who has studied and followed for years the sickening effect of soy on ruminants. Cows that formerly could easily reach the age of 15 years and have 12 calves have on average now less than three calves and reach hardly the age of 6. One main reason is the high percentage of soy in the rations. It works into the buildup of ammonia in the rumen. This affects negatively the liver and then shows up in mastitis and sterility. Off they go to the butcher. Only there can a vet identify the defective livers. The soybean, bringing about high milk yields in the first two lcactations - is the curse of our cattle heerds. And the milk achieved through it is not health promoting either.


----------



## old dominion (Oct 25, 2007)

I am such a firm believer in roasted soybeans that I roasted raw beans in my kitchen oven for years. My husband was very happy when I found a source for commercially roasted beans.

Jolene


----------



## chewie (Jul 26, 2008)

so for one lil ol doe on the stand, with oats and corn and boss, just a handful of the SBM? this is alot cheaper than calf manna here, its almost $30 a bag! not bad with just one, but that will add up fast once the other gals start milking again too. 

what does kelp do?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Chris will one handful of SBM up the protein? Do the math with the perecentage of protien in the SBM you get to make sure you are giving enough to actually increase it.

Kelp is wonderful and full of lots of minerals and micronutritents not found in the enviornment naturally. But like everything I do not think that more is better. And the goats love it, you could easily go through the 50 pounds in a few weeks. I don't belong to the school of thought either that the goats some how "know" they need it if they are eating that much of it either. Everything for a reason, everything in moderation...and just cause someone said so on the internet doesn't mean it's ok....  vicki


----------



## chewie (Jul 26, 2008)

nuther question....would plain yeast from the grocery store do anything or is your diamond v something totally different?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Totally different. Google.com Diamond V Yeast they have all sorts of stuides on improveing production (more when fed with bicarb mixed in). vicki


----------



## Daniel Babcock (May 28, 2008)

Vicki

do you free choice a mix of diamond v and sodium bicarb? What are the ratios? I recently bought a doe who is in milk, bred and towards the end of her lactation. I read a study

http://www.diamondv.com/research03/reports/Dairy/Meta-analysis_7-14-08 pg22.pdf

suggesting Diamond V increases dry feed intake and milk production throughout lactation, but particularly toward the end of lactation.

If it makes a significant difference I would like to add it to my management.

thanks!


----------



## FRW (Sep 29, 2008)

Someone had mentioned can you feed green soybeans to your goats? I have never found them available in bulk that were not already dry. They are even higher in protein than the dry beans are. Somewhere around 69 to 70+ percent. In fact most any bean or pea that is green including pintos and purple hulls will hold a higher protein green than dry. When I was living on the large 200 acre farm we had the tractors cultivators hay equipment etc and I planted small plots of Soybeans ,pinto beans, peas, wheat ,barley you name it and I would take the hay cutter and go in and cut it at the ground then haul small amounts by trailer to the goats, they loved it!!. It would last in the shade from AM to PM. My goats did very well on this and brouse pasture and it sure cut down on the feed bill.The plants actually reproduced 3 times in the same summer.We just added a little goat fertilizer and let them mature again.
Our 2 main dry grains we feed to our goats are Whole oats and Barley with soybean and BOSS Beet and Pulp Milk Plus pellets(calf manna ) as a protein source. There is never a need to buy crimped rolled or steam rolled feed for goats this is what their rum en is for. You will be wasting your money But the goats will thrive on these green plants and do well. Do not feed just straight green soybeans or you can overload your animals on protein.We fed stems and all.I feel goats do better on a structured feed program. Find what works stick with it and if you need to tweak it a little, do it slowly and see if it works.
No one has the same hay as you or the same alfalfa hay as you and you will have to make adjustments where you need it.
If you are interested in the feed we mix our self PM me and I will be glad to share it with you. 

.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2008)

Floyd,

Did you have a large herd? About how many goats do you currently own?

Just curious. 

Sara


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

> Our 2 main dry grains we feed to our goats are Whole oats and Barley with soybean and BOSS Beet and Pulp Milk Plus pellets(calf manna


Can't buy whole barley here


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2008)

WHY on gods green earth you would feed any rumen green soybeans? You are asking for big time trouble with feedin a high acid food to a rumen. That is why before they are taken out of the feed they are to be at the very most 75% moisture. Would prefer they be less since you are going have to feed them faster than you havest them. Its one thing to feed a green crop to the rumen, but not cut enough to where they are going to mold on you in a matter of a few hours. Heck, even the peas that you buy in a can at the grocery store are harvested somewhat dry.

Also, why do you think you can over feed in the protien department also? If the animal does not need the protien they will just excete it out in the bile. Yes, you will have a high acid in the rumen, and that will cause you problem but its not the protien that is going to kill them. Since all a protien is chemically is a chain of carbon above 6 links together. And since the rumen will break down carbon chains that is what the rumen does for a living. So, it will just break it down to a amino acid that will then translate into a fatty acid that will feed the microbes in the rumen. What is not used in the rumen will be passed out of the system. That is what a by-pass protien is...one that is broken down in the last part of the large intestine.

Also, what the rumen is for is the breakdown of plant cell walls. Not to digest grain. Its a simple vat in the body of the animal. It turns about every 20 seconds to keep the vat sturred up. Hence that is where the phase "loosing a gut" comes from. They are have not gotten enough long stem fiber in the rumen and it becomes high level of acid in the rumen. And with the feeding method you are talking about is a OLD feeding method of the 60. To feed green crop to the animals. While yes it does offer great feedstuff, but you forgot the main part of the whole feeding system. That along with the green crop you need to feed a dry hay or forage with it. Since the moisture content is at a high level that is going to cause loose stools in the animals. If you ever milked cows, you would know the "spring squirts" comes from. They are using more energy to get the little amount of nutrients out of the plants since they will be high in moisture. Its not about how much you feed the animals is all about the dry matter that they are eating.

Dry Matter is what makes the milk. Not, just what they are eating, that is why if you look at any journal they will always list Dry Matter intake. As that is the only true way that you can compare feeding systems. The extra moisture is just sent out of the system if it is not needed in the animal.

Ken


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Daniel, my minerals contains yeast now and all good cured grass hay has natural bicarb. When I used to add Diamond V XP to the list of products I use it was before my new mineral. I fed it in the bottom of the grain feeders on the milkstands. The girls got it during the dry period (back then they were lucky to get 45 days dry) and then I would buy one more bag and fed about 1/4 cup (laundry scoop) at the bottom of grain feeders twice a day until the whole bag was gone. You can find old posts of mine saying it got rid of all the nasty poop you would get when the girls went back to eating all their grain...because back then I fed ALOT of grain and alot of molassas on that grain  The yeast buffered the rumen, added colonies of bacteria to it and the intestines that helped break down all that grain. It's an excellent product. vicki


----------



## sammyd (Nov 16, 2008)

We have had good results from really good alfalfa hay (better than 20% P)and whole shell corn,
We get good reults from decent alfalfa/grass hay and a 16% mixed grain.
We supplement with a 2:1 loose mineral and they get some time in the pasture from spring/early fall. Pasture is mostly clover with some alfalfa and grass in spots.

As an old dairy cow guy I have seen systems that fed simply and ones that rely on computer printouts and high priced additives. Either will put milk in your tank. But I know more folks that are looking at less in the tank with less inputs and taking that road.


----------



## Madfarmer (Nov 18, 2008)

This is all fascinating! Does anyone attempt to manage on goats a totally (or nearly so) forage-based model, as in seasonal grass-based dairying that many cow dairies have adopted? Annual production may be somewhat less, but with reduced feed cost, the bottom line is better. And not being stuffed with grain, the animals (and the products) are healthier.

Tom


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Tom you just can't do the green grass theory with a milking goat herd Goats don't graze like cows or sheep Only if they are starving are they going to graze down grass. Goats will go eat out all the weeds /and brush but not the grass itself . So in my opinion this is just crazy thinking. I get calls all the time from the so called health nuts wanting milk from grass fed goats. 
Heck if I did that there would be no milk at all. I also can't imagin feeding green soybeans, well for that matter personally am not in favor of a lot of soy at all.


----------



## Daniel Babcock (May 28, 2008)

Sondra-

I have found my MM's eat alot of grass browse. Are they better 'scroungers' because of the ND influence? I have a friend/mentor who provides some grass/alfalfa hay and a handful of grain on the stand but her MM's get the majority of thier feed from browsing grass. She has some fantastic goats (Senior Grand Champions), that really put the milk in the pail.


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Daniel they are still provide with alfalfa and grain there is your key. Yes many people have acres and acres for them to browse on but if you really go look at the ground and forage are they really eating just grass? I personally don't believe so they are browsers not grazers. I know for a fact that Vicki's goats have quite a few acres of browse in the forest /woods and she also plants a forage material for winter feeding. However she still feeds alfalfa to dry does durning non milking season. What I am saying here is that you can not depend on having a good milking herd and leave them on grass grazing alone. and throwing out corn as a supplement isn't going to do it except for putting on a little fat. This of course is my opinion.


----------



## Madfarmer (Nov 18, 2008)

Oh, yeah, Sondra--I understand that goats aren't cows. That's why my place is so good for goats--all the weeds & brush-LOL. What I've wondered about is if anyone had successfully adapted the pasture-based model to dairy goats. Grain in general, and soy in particular, is not only harmful (in big quantites) to the animals themselves, it also renders their products (meat & milk) harmful to humans by altering the fat/cholesterol content & balance. Add the fact that now, virtually all commercial feed is coming from genetically modified grains, is contaminated with chemical residue, and what we eat is slowly poisoning us.

Tom--crackpot in Texas


----------



## sammyd (Nov 16, 2008)

You'll have to prove that feeding animals grain is poisoning us. I for one don't believe it and haven't seen anything to sway that opinion.

I have seen a setup that relied on grazing through the summer. He had trefoil pretty thick for pasture. And he fed whole shell corn on the stand. Goats will graze if that's what's available.
And they will do well once they learn the system.


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Yeh Sam your are so right  it is a sad day in xxxx when I allow my goats to have only grazing, but sure goats may survive or adapt on grass and corn but is it good for them. I personally will hate the day that has to be done here I will get out of goats. I sure don't want to personally eat corn and lettuce as my main staple either. :sigh


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't think we need to start a big argument on the grain or no grain issue. Sam, If you go to eatwild.com you can see many studies that show some of the differences that Tom is talking about. There are many different opinions on feeding. I wouldn't say that grain is a poison, although it does seem to change the nutrient profile of the meets and milk. Those changes are facts -not oppinions. 

Tom, we basically do a forage based diet here. I have excellent alfalfa and an alfalfa mix, and a grass hay. I'm still looking for a teff or other cereal crop hay. We use alfalfa pellets during the last part of their pregnancy and into the first part of their lactation to boost the calcium in their diet. We use a tiny bit of whole grains to help balance the calcium/phosphorus ratio out. They get some browse when we have it. We have an incredibly diverse browse area. It takes a few years for a goat to adapt to a forage based diet. The ones that will be hit harder with the diet changes are those milkers who have a strong will to milk and who give a lot of milk. They have to be well managed or they will suffer for it. 

The best thing you can do is to try and find some local producers who are doing what you want to do and go and visit their farms, and look at their animals and see how they do things.


----------



## Madfarmer (Nov 18, 2008)

Jo--Have you looked at any of the grazing varieties of corn? Been a while since I read about these--I think it was a "Stockman-Grassfarmer" article. You can sequence planting blocks & control access with moveable hot-wire. Or, I could send you some nice rooted poison ivy cuttings! :rofl

Tom


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm with you Sondra. I'd hate to see my girls on a "grass-fed" diet. They'd look like crap, not to mention I'd be too embarrased to take them into the showring or for that matter, even look at them twice a day milking. Bones are not my forte'. Nope, when it comes down to no grain, I won't be owning goats.

LOL...if you will follow those goats closely when they are "grazing" you will notice just what it is they are eating. It's not grass...it's the broad stem plants, leaves, etc.. Yeah, I thought so too until I actually went with them in the pasture. :lol I kept wondering why they were in the pasture, yet I had to bushhog really nice bermuda grass up to their bellies. 
Kaye


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I would never want to have to see my girls on a grass only diet, but I do think they could do well, milk (certainly nothing like the amounts I get on grain and alfalfa pellets) on browse. In fact when I am going to be gone and someone else has to milk I cut the alfalfa pellets and grain so that the girls are milking less for them, I then have to worry alot less about them strutting udders if milking time changes. With E dairy character also comes does ability to blow out their teats.

The danger for us down south is that the more your goats eat down your browse and eat with their heads down into grass material, the more severe your worm burdens are going to be. There is really no way to stock up on grains or alfalfa here for our goats with the pending economic collapse which ironically we have been talking about since last year on Off Topic  but I am stocking up on seed and copper boluses. It will be the only way to deal with our worm burdens.

I have a very hard time with alot of the internet science on Weston Price and that type of site, which is such a huge marketing tool more than being healthy. Pasteurised milk is not going to kill you any more than homogenized milk is, yes pasteurised milk you milk our of your goat is better...and when new or purchased from someone you don't know is likely smarter...and yes raw out of your own stock is best...but when you are new and wouldn't know to pull a doe with listeriosis symptoms soon enough?

It's not that you can't raise goats on only this or that, but to do so you certainly have to accept the consequences that go with it. And we cant' let this thread go without commenting on the last time we had this conversation it came with a man who was doing this to the death of his goats, thankfully the sheriff finally stepped in and auction off all his goats.

Your biggest cost of selling milk is always going to be labor. I would rather milk a goat giving 8 pounds every day for 300 days than have to milk 2 goats to get that same 8 pounds. Vicki


----------



## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

Sondra said:


> I get calls all the time from the so called health nuts wanting milk from grass fed goats.
> Heck if I did that there would be no milk at all.


I know me personally, prior to getting goats, was seeking grass fed cow milk instead of cow's fed on high amounts of soy....


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I was, too... read lots of Joel Salatin stuff.  Seems it works for meat production, but probably not milk so much since these animals are producing more than just for their own kids?


----------



## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I bought a 100 bag of flaked soybean this past summer. The amish guy at the feedstore suggested it. I fed small amounts daily and my girls loved it. I was feeding calf manna too, which is much more expensive. We had no negative effects from either and one of my goats, which looked ho hum when I bought her, hair all rough and such, has really blossomed since she's been here, about 2 years I guess..maybe a little less. I was looking at pictures, and cannot believe the difference. She was getting sweet feed at her old home, no other grain, and was dry when I bought her. No alfalfa. I feed basically the same as everyone on this forum, depending of course on availability, and have had really nice results. I've really been impressed with the results I've gotten with this doe especially, as recommended here. She was basically an ugly doe, but with good feed and management has actually become pretty. I'll probably keeping using soy in some form or another for now. It seems to be working.
Anita


----------



## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

"pasture based" management- its something I'd prefver not to do, since supplementing with grain gives me much better output.more bang for the buck in my current system. 

But as Vicki mentioned, I have concerns about economic collapse. My grain is all purchased. What would I do if I couldnt buy it- like, its not available, or there's hyperinflation and I cant afford it? 

Well, as long as I can get hay to see them thru winter- I dont think I'd get rid of them, since thats the time I'd need them most for meat and milk production. We have almost no local cow dairies, and if it gets bad, those milk goats will make a difference. 

Ive been researching and playing with growing some of my own grain (corn so far) and other alternatives. A large plot of "3 sisters" is going in this spring- corn, pole beans and winter squash. I have about 14 comfrey plants i put in this spring, I will be doubling the patch at least this year, cutting and drying comfrey for a hay supplement. I could only lightly cut them this year, but should get better production as time goes on. Ive purchased some mangel seed and am going to try fodder beets and mangels too. I'll be supplementing milkers with those items. Cows and horses will get pasture and hay only. The pigs will get pasture, browse, extra milk and eggs. milk and eggs and meat for the LGDs. 

Any animals that cant survive and produce adequately will get culled. If theres no market for show does, then they will go for milkers. Or to canning jar camp. I just dont know any other way to figure it out at this point. If I thin out extra bucklings real early, and keep few replacements, then if I get a half gallon off a doe under these circumstances i'd think I was doing well. Ive got 17 acres, more browse than pasture in a good half of it. Lots of young evergreens in it. 

I think it comes down to capabilites and focus. I think the stereotypical response is to think that pasture production indicates less management, but I think it needs more management to keep animals productive, in good shape and healthy. Very careful management. There are cow dairies that do it and IMHO not all their techniques will work for goats. I doubt theres much research out there in goat dairies doing this- but honestly I havent looked yet. Something I should do someday soon, I guess. 

Plain pasture probably wont produce much milk at all, and maybe not enough to feed the multiple offspring most does have. Acres of browse will in addition to pasture may produce an acceptable amount depending on how you define acceptable, and the numbers you pencil in to the bottom line. I dont have any idea of the browse/pasture required acerage to support one average producing doe for a year. That would be an interesting figure to obtain.


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

With all that's been said....look at the equine situations right now. They aren't worth the feed put in them, people can't afford to feed them, they turn them loose to fend for themselves-bad idea- and ALL the problems the country is having with abuse/malnourished horses in nearly every county. 

I just refuse to see my hard earned work and breeding go to pot with trying to feed no grain. It's not called dairy character it's called emaciation. And survial of the fittest is cruel. You are responsible for the care and well being of the goats you own.
My last thoughts on this subject.
Kaye


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It is coming down to folks selling goats because they can't afford the feed bill. We really are serving two types of farms in any conversation, those of us who show, appraise, raise breeding stock but still expect our girls to be milkers first. And those who want family milk and some milk to sell. Alternative feeds an ways of doing things are going to be much more main stream as things get much much worse. Also think about BOSS, not only is it very easy to grow and grows in poor soil, sandy soils, partial shade, heavy clay, it's one of the things with the easiest of seeds to save and plant. It also doesn't have all the problems with storage that most things have in our humidity. An excellent fat, and a good protein. Plus you can feed the whole head and not have to pick seeds if you don't want to.

I loved my winter/spring plantings so much I redid them again this year. Not only did it turn out to be a very good thing for the goats, but I can pick vetch and peas for the rabbits also. It would make excellent feeding for chicken tractors and with as tame as our pigs are we could easily have either a moveable pig pen again or even have one on a tether, alot smarter than goats on a tether  And the dog harness for our big dogs work well. Vicki


----------



## Madfarmer (Nov 18, 2008)

Vicki's point is what I was referring to when I started what I never intended to be an arguement. Two (and only two) mega-corporations--Cargill and Monsanto--control most of the commercial feed-grain production in the U. S. And they are not your friends. That feed production is entirely dependent on imported petroleum. All I was asking about was: What folks are doing in the way of alternatives & home-produced feeding to free themselves of that dependence?


----------



## sammyd (Nov 16, 2008)

I know full well that different feeds will get you different results. With our dairy cows we switched from a primarily hay with some grain ration to a heavy corn silage with some grain and a bit of hay ration. Milk shipped went up a bit but the fat% dropped like a rock. But you can get a lot of forage from corn so it became the mainstay of our ration for years.
I have fed out and eaten primarily grass fed holstein steers and I have fed them nothing but whole shell corn and a buffer pellet. I know the difference that can be had.

Pasture management is a pretty hard thing. You have to have something in the pasture that the animals will eat and thrive on. You have to have enough of it that they are not eating it down to less than 6" tall because of the parasites (6" is the magic number from some literature I've read). Just throwing up a fence around a few acres and letting them go is not what it takes. The land needs to be tested and brought up to snuff for the forage you want, your forage needs to be planned out meaning you have to plant stuff that the animals will eat and that will stand up to grazing and the changing seasons of the grazing time, and you should have paddocks to rotate the animals through.

Our amount of land is pretty limited at the moment and most of it goes towards making hay for the winter but we do run the goats through the stuff if we feel that it will grow back in time to get 2 cuttings or if we decide that we have enough and can graze off the third crop. We plant a mix of clover alfalfa and brome or timothy so there is plenty of stuff in there that they will eat.

I don't advocate grain free, I'm a firm believer in making up for what is not in the forage. I wouldn't normally feed nothing but corn but it fit the forage I was feeding.
My goats do not look like a bags of bones and they milk at average levels.



> That feed production is entirely dependent on imported petroleum.


All feed production is dependant on imported petroleum but that is another discussion entirely.
There are alternatives to Monsanto and Cargill. If you are firm in your beliefs and have the land you can plant a wide variety of stuff that comes from other sources.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

As a comment to the grass-fed only idea--even in nature goats will have some seed and grains. So the concept of 'natural grass fed' as though it is unnatural to feed grain is really not that natural.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Exactly Michelle, also goats are browsers not grazers. Here your dependant on the height of the puddles in your grass after rain for how high the worm eggs and larvae can float up and attach themselves to the top of the grass to be re-eaten. Vicki


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

With the incredibly rocky ground we have (and living on a hillside, to boot), it doesn't take too much for DH to rip up some part of our tractor and put it out of commission a couple weeks each summer  In that time, our grass grows tall enough to have seeds (which in the past has been a cheap way to reseed our lawn!), and this year (the first I've had goats) I noticed that they go through that tall grass eating the seeds off the tops and leaving the rest. How tall do oats get? (Sadly, we have some on our land that's across the street, but I never got over there to look at it!) With that being the heaviest fed grain, it seems possible that growing some oats with staggered planting times and letting the goats wander through that might be a way to save on grain costs should the need arise also...


----------



## sammyd (Nov 16, 2008)

Oats like to grow in cooler weather. Stuff planted in early spring is ready to harvest around Aug.
Problem is that you loose nutrients in the grassy part of the plant as you gain in the heads. So while they could get their fill of grain, you would have them eating poor quality forage, or not bothering to eat it at all if you waited till the oats were fully ripe. Then you have the trample factor.


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

"or not bothering to eat it at all" ... that's kind of what I was going for--let them just eat the grain part. Then, you have straw for bedding if you choose to harvest it. Here, it would just get bushhogged at the end of the season. (I know, more petroleum!)  Just an idea...


----------



## sammyd (Nov 16, 2008)

It would be so trampled down it would be worthless.


----------



## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

thanks for the reminder on the BOSS Vicki. I did a small patch of white seeded sunflowers this year.What a difference thinning made! the rows I thinnned to about a foot apart produced much more seed on fewer plants than the rows i didnt get too. I did save some BOSS seed from the last bag I bought for planting.


----------



## Madfarmer (Nov 18, 2008)

How many of y'all grow/feed comfrey? Do they eat a lot of it, or is it better mainly as a treat? Any problems with it? Oh, and I really do have plenty of poison ivy starts! How 'bout we trade for some Kudzu? :crazy

Tom


----------



## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Tom I just tried it for the first time this year. In general they didnt seem that thrilled with it when it was fresh. I used very little just a few leaves here and there. But dried- they loved it, I crumple up a few leaves into their feed about once a week now. Both a treat and good for them. If I had more, I'd use more of. i hope to next year.


----------



## Madfarmer (Nov 18, 2008)

I've noticed my girls tend not to prefer fuzzy-leaf plants fresh. That may be why. I just got some seed, but havent started it yet. I think it propagates easily from root cuttings.

Tom


----------



## FRW (Sep 29, 2008)

I have an Idea about planting alfalfa we cannot grow it for hay consumption down south because it cannot dry out enough. But why couldn't you graze your goats on it and if it gets to high cut it back and let them start again when it grow out some. I know breeders up north who graze alfalfa. If you had cows or calves they could eat some of what you cut back down . Then your does are still getting the nutrients in alfalfa. The man I talked to advised burning off the place I plan to plant that pot ash was essential for it.
I plan to till up about an 1/2 acre to plant and have a well to irrigate it.We will see what happens. I have been around it enough to recognize the bugs that would get in it. It is expensive seed, but it does not have to be planted very often the winter kills it back mostly up north. A field only needed replanting every 5 to 6 years.
I am not sure what the heat will do to it in the south. I know where it is grown in OK it gets in the 100's there.
Anyone tried it?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We purchsed alfalfa hay from a guy in Ennis just south of Dallas for years. He had beautiful alfalfa but it didn't keep well. I can't imagine why you couldn't grow it. Vicki


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I planted some alfalfa. Goats just sniff at it when it's green here, even though they go nuts over the hay.


----------



## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

They have what they call alfagraze I have wondered about putting it in for the goats. Up in the pasture that is closed off from the cattle but the goats can get to. It is supposed to be more graze tolerant then regular alfalfa. The problem with alfalfa we have here is the alfalfa weevil. If you don't spray it in the spring. You will lose it within a couple of years. If it was grazed down I don't think you would have that problem, but I don't know for sure.


----------



## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

theres a lady up here RW farms in Indiana who grzes her goats on an alfalfa food.


----------



## sammyd (Nov 16, 2008)

Alfalfa isn't as hardy under grazing conditons as some other stuff, but there are varieties that will hold up better than others. And since most testing is done with cattle I think that the smaller goats don't bother the stuff as much.
We try to find the hardiest variety that we can. And yes the stuff is expensive but spreading that cost out over the life of the pasture, it's not too bad.
I figure on 3 years but we are up north and winterkill can be devastating to alfalfa, although they are working on varieties to cover that as well.


----------



## Madfarmer (Nov 18, 2008)

There are allegely new varieties better-suited to the Gulf Coast. There's also Berseem clover, which takes heat, but I don't know about humidity. It has been used to re-seed winter-kill patches in alfalfa--grows very similarly.


----------



## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

I tried interplanting a little this year, into our small 3 or 4 acre hay field. The only way I could get alfalafa seed locally was by the 50 lb bag- and I'm not made of money! LOL so I didnt go that route. What I ended up buying was two 1 lb packages of a mixed seed that is sold for deer hunters. The one I got didnt have any grass or grain in it they make several kinds. IIRC I paid like 6 or 7 abag for it. It had alfalfa, chickory and vetch seed. Since the seeds were sooooo small, I mixed them in a bucket with a big scoop of whole feed oats, and walked aroud and broadcasted them into the hay field area. We ended up with alot of rain and then aweek or so after I planted them DH had someone come and lime the field, I dont know if either to the downpours or the pH change as they would have been germinating may have affected it. Also, I should have done it weeks earlier, I didnt get this idea in time to plant earlier. Anyway,I did get some growth of each. Not much, but a little. Definitily noticeable in the spots where I had round bales out in the winter. Enough to try it again, but this time I'll plant earlier. The one downside is I dont know what variety of alfalfa is in the mix. Since it wasnt named on the bag, and there are annual varieties, I dont know if I planted an annual or perrenial variety. But if anyone is going to try planting a small area of some "mixed greens" as a treat, it might be an inexpensive way to do it instead of trying to order large amounts of expensive seed.


----------



## sammyd (Nov 16, 2008)

The first year we planted a couple of pounds of deer plot stuff, had the same problem with finding small amounts of alfalfa.
We switched from buying all of our feed from Fleet Farm and started using a feed mill. They were more than happy to sell smaller quantities of seed to us the last couple of years.


----------



## Madfarmer (Nov 18, 2008)

Peaceful Valley Farm Supply has a wide variety of forage seed in smaller quantities. They're pricey, but they have a reputation for quality.

Tom


----------

