# Birthweight affected by gestation feeding?



## MG_loves_Toggs (Sep 9, 2013)

What is anyone's experience with gestational feeding as it affects kid birthweight? Most of my does are 70-90 days bred, and I'm beginning to wonder if feeding them too much would cause the birthweights of their kids to be higher, and potentially cause trouble at kidding.

I'm feeding a gestation feed that is supposed to be fed at 1.5 lb/day to get the right amount of Rumensin for each doe. They also get free choice grass hay and mineral. Is that too much? Normally I don't like to feed so much grain at this point in gestation, but I would like to clean up any coccidia.

Thanks in advance


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I just feed by body condition. Birthweight seems to be more a factor of how many kids for me.


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## MG_loves_Toggs (Sep 9, 2013)

Thanks for the quick reply! I guess regardless of birthweight, you want your does in good condition at kidding. If you don't mind me asking, what do you feed your average mid to late gestation doe?


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I find that it does. Feeding a 16-18% lactator pellet pre-kidding and I had kids in the 7-9# range. Feeding a minimal amount of 10-12% grain mix, I had kids in the 5-7# range. 

I always feed free choice alfalfa hay to pregnant and lactating does. Milk fever is a real issue. I noticed you feed grass hay... do you also feed alfalfa pellets?


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## MG_loves_Toggs (Sep 9, 2013)

Thanks--that's interesting!! I supplement with both alfalfa hay and pellets during early pregnancy and of course after kidding. I try not to feed too much late gestation though because of milk fever. From what I have read, it's better to leave out the high potassium forages in late gestation so they have adequate calcium mobilization mechanisms in place at kidding. That, of course, is a whole other discussion!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

For me, genetics has been the main determination of kid size, then the size of the dam and how many kids she is carrying. But I guess I do tend to feed the same every year. My toggenburg always wants to have huge kids, whether a single or triplets they always seem to be the same size! And then I have one nubian buck that throws tiny kids, 5-6 lbs. I am going to breed him to my Togg and see if that will give her smaller kids... Otherwise, my kids are usually 6 or 7 lbs, maybe 8 from time to time. I start lead feeding about 30-40 days out, starting with a handful of oats and working up to how much I want them to be eating when they freshen by the time they do. Mine get alfalfa year round. I don't like to feed it straight though, I feed grass hay/browse too.


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## ElLomah (Jun 5, 2013)

I feed free choice alfalfa the entire gestation - doing so will *prevent* milk fever, providing your doe with all the calcium she needs. Pulling the alfalfa in late gestation will force her to pull out her reserve calcium from her bones for the kids - not good - and make her more susceptible to milk fever.

Yes, I have found that the amounts of grain fed can over grow your kids if fed too much. If you feed too much - you also run the risk of putting too much weight on your does, heavy does have harder kiddings in general. Over all I go by what the girls look like condition wise and base the amount I feed on whatever more or less conditioning they need.

More on preventing milk fever from the 101 section.

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f28/hypocalcemia-hypocalcemia-link-between-calcium-phosphorus-sue-reith-16493/


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## MG_loves_Toggs (Sep 9, 2013)

Thanks so much for your input! I had a good look at all the bred does tonight, and I think I'm going to follow your advice and feed based on body condition. I've been working out my rations with the Langston calculator which is based on the NRC requirements, and it's surprising how little calcium they need in late gestation. I'm hoping to forage test soon so I can be more precise--it seems the dietary cation-anion balance has more impact on the incidence of milk fever than calcium level...


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

The balance of minerals is super complex, and I think a lot of the problems come from that. Sometimes, I think feeding too much calcium in relation to phosphorus can also cause hypocalcemia/milk fever. I learned at the ADGA convention from some of the vets from the Caine teaching center that this area has soils that are phosphorus deficient, so I am trying to look at that a little more in trying to feed my does properly. I haven't had any full blown milk fever issues, but I have had some slight early symptoms treated with CMPK and got better quickly.


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## cvalley (Apr 15, 2009)

The calcium/phosphorus does need to be in balance as well as minerals in diet. We keep MFO on hand for milk fever/hypocalcemia. Also, as does are later in pregnancy , they eat smaller amounts throughout the day. Does should be on an accending plane of nutrition during pregnancy . There are many different ways to manage nutrition in your does successfully.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

MG, could you put your name and location in your siggy line, pleeeease? 

Could you explain this imbalance you mentioned? Is it mineral? Have had problems with MF here and I really wish I understood this stuff better.  The only thing that has helped is high quality alfalfa hay in late gestation and post kidding. 

Where, oh where, is Lee when I need her to explain things to me like a child?? *~* LOL


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## MG_loves_Toggs (Sep 9, 2013)

Okay tah dah...signature fixed! Hopefully it shows up, knowing my technology skills (or lack thereof) 

I'm not sure what others are referring to, but from what I have read, there are lots of minerals and vitamins that could impact metabolic health at freshening. Calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, and potassium seem to be the biggies, but also important are things like choline and niacin, which play an integral role in fat and metabolism. 

I attached this chart about the various minerals and how they relate. Hopefully some of the experts on here will chime in with some more input!


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I was thinking that you were here in Indiana.  Ok... I don't *understand the chart. *~* Relate? How? I have copper/iron problems. I understand that too much iron inhibits the goats ability to utilize copper. Is this something similar with ca: ph:mg:k?


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

MG_loves_Toggs said:


> Thanks so much for your input! I had a good look at all the bred does tonight, and I think I'm going to follow your advice and feed based on body condition. I've been working out my rations with the Langston calculator which is based on the NRC requirements, and it's surprising how little calcium they need in late gestation. I'm hoping to forage test soon so I can be more precise--it seems the dietary cation-anion balance has more impact on the incidence of milk fever than calcium level...


Please Please Please find articles by Sue Reith regarding Milk Fever/Ketosis (which are just another name for Hypocalcemia). You are destined to have one or both with your current feeding program. The only way that you are going to avoid it (at least this year ) is if you have poor milkers. Period.

Your does need closer to 5:1 Calcium/Phosphorus ratio. I don't care what the charts say...those are not for goats!!! Goats produce more milk than cows/body weight, they produce more kids (body weight %) than cows in a much shorter gestation and they have a completely different metabolic system rate than cows. They are NOT small cows.

You can read on here, or on HomesteadingToday.com all of the folks that fed grass hay and grain - perfect recipe for disaster.

Feed alfalfa and a small amount of grain, slowly increasing the grain as gestation comes close to kidding.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

What are you milking? Breeds? Milk production? Are they still in milk with the grain or dried up?
Boers or dairy goats. Big difference there too, although we feed our Boers alfalfa the last 50 days of their gestation, but then again, our Boers kid with big healthy triplets and quads (4 sets of triplets thus far, 2 sets of quads) and can feed them...milky and productive goats. 

Please take my advice to heart - the crash and burn is painful and hard to take if you don't pull up now.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Thank you, Camille!

:handclap


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## MG_loves_Toggs (Sep 9, 2013)

Thanks everyone--this is great! I have Toggs, and they are currently dry. When milking, they do 12-20 lbs per day and of course get lots of leafy alfalfa that puts their Ca ratio at about 5:1. I've read the Sue Reith articles and I get that they're very different from cows, but from what I've read a lot of the systems are the same. I work in a dairy nutrition lab, so I guess I'm conflicted. All the latest cow research that used to point to inadequate calcium in late gestation as the problem is now looking at dietary cation anion balance, and though goat research has not yet been done, the people at Cornell expect it will hold true for goats as well. But it's hard to disagree with people who have so much real dairy GOAT experience and not just speculation!!! So I guess that's where I'm coming from--I just want to do whatever's best to keep my ladies healthy and happy. I think with a forage test, I can feed lower potassium alfalfa which would satisfy both conditions.Thank you so much Camille for your advice!!


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I still wanna hear more. I feed alfalfa--and still have problems with MF. If there's something to this canion anion? balance that I can *fix*. That's why I askef for Mary to add her name and location. I thought it was her. She's not to far from me and her goats MILK. I can feed exactly like SherrieC, who is even closer, and still have problems. I keep thinking it has something to do with the *imbalance* of minerals that I've been dealing with for years.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

As someone mentioned, my herds kid size has more to do with number of kids in the litter and genetics. 

My does get 2 pounds of 16% pelleted dairy concentrate (Ca is 3:1), mixed grass/weed hay, loose minerals, di-calcium phosphate mixed with the soaked beet pulp and rice bran meal (balanced to a 2:1 Ca ratio) daily from the time they are dried off until they kid. Coming FF's get the same diet. If a doe is on the skinny side I add more beet pulp and concentrate. The feed has never seemed to make any difference in kid size. Never had a problem with metabolic problems in my herd with this diet.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I have always fed free choice alfalfa pellets toward the end of pregnancy. The kids tend to be on the big side, but no metabolic issues.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f28/hy...k-between-calcium-phosphorus-sue-reith-16493/


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Sully, you don't feed alfalfa pre-kidding?


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## MG_loves_Toggs (Sep 9, 2013)

Thank you Sully! 

And yes, Denise, we are pretty close!! We ought to get to know each other--my 2014 resolution is to learn how to make soap 

As far as the cation-anion balance and such....This is how I understand it.
There are three ways a ruminant can absorb calcium: passive absorption from the small intestine (absorbing what they eat), active absorption from the small intestine (vitamin D "grabs" calcium), and bone mobilization (bone acts as calcium storage).

While milking, the calcium demands are high enough that all 3 methods of calcium absorption must be used. When dry the demands are lower so they can normally get enough calcium from just passive absorption, so they shut down the other 2 processes. Of course at freshening, the calcium demands will skyrocket. The does will need to be able to use all 3 methods of absorption to avoid hypocalcemia, but the 2 shut down processes take a while to "kick in." (I want to say it's around 3 weeks...)

Dietary cation-anion balance (DCAB) is functionally calculated with the cations sodium and potassium, and the anions chloride and sulfur. Dairy producers attempt to put their cows in a negative DCAB by feeding low potassium forages or anionic salts. This causes an excess of anions, which lowers the blood pH. As the blood pH lowers, the animal compensates by mobilizing bone calcium into the bloodstream just like someone would apply lime to an acidic field. So a low DCAB close to freshening makes sure that the animal can mobilize bone calcium when it comes freshening time. There are tons of studies linking DCAB with milk fever incidence if you google it--lots of cow ones and a few goat ones.

Both cow and goat research has also linked feeding high calcium in late gestation as causing greater incidence of milk fever. Cow studies have shown that increasing Ca from 0.5% to 1% of the ration gives you as much as a 327% increase in milk fever incidence.

Alfalfa is generally high in both potassium and calcium, although the former varies considerably from field to field based on fertilizer application rates.

Just to keep in mind: As Camille pointed out, the NRC requirements are great, but there are a few issues with using them for gestation nutrition (the Langston calculator). They are based on twins, not triplets or more. Also, they have dry matter intake as predicted to increase in late lactation, which is not always possible due to the fill of the kids. In cows, the last few weeks before parturition they eat approximately 30% less. 

Theoretically, if you had a doe who was not eating a lot, she could get the same amount of Ca from a small portion of alfalfa, or a large portion of grass hay. If you're just looking at calcium. So I guess that throws another wrench into this whole problem...but now I am getting off topic 

That's my understanding of this whole matter, but I am by no means an expert!! Sorry for the long post.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

I too feed according to body condition, although all my does do get 1 cup of barley daily and free choice alfalfa when they come in from pasture. I am feeding a couple of nubians a little more grain at the moment as I think they are a little too lean. We put a scheme in place this year of weight taping our girls every 2 weeks, during pregnancy, we started this when we wormed them, to calculate doses. We carried on and if any seem to be dropping weight we will up the grain, but up to now they all seem to be consistant. We will start lead feeding about 30 days from freshening.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I don't feed alfalfa any more. I never did, then started to, now I am not. No difference in doe/kid health. Am now on disability from my job to the tune of $5.00 an hour so I can't afford anything extra, may have to sell my goats if they don't let me go back to work soon. They get the calcium supplement I bought this past summer.

Never have had a case of "milk fever" or ketosis either with or without alfalfa, so they must be on track as far as the Ca goes. I've had goats for 35 years or so.


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## MG_loves_Toggs (Sep 9, 2013)

SANDQ- that consistent weight taping sounds like a great idea!! 
And Sully, sorry to hear that  Sounds like your goats are very well managed if you can keep up a 35 year record of health. Awesome!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

MaryGrace, not all ruminants are created equal. Most info on ruminants comes from cattle. At convention a couple of years ago, a vet from Penn State speaking on nutrition, specifically mineral balance (or should I say, imbalance) opened his speech with "A goat is not a cow and it certainly isn't a sheep"! Very refreshing.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

There are a few of us on another forum that have cut back or eliminated alfalfa, either due to expense or to problems from overly high protein in the goats' diet. Edema is reduced on a lower protein diet.


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## MG_loves_Toggs (Sep 9, 2013)

Cindy--absolutely!! I sometimes need to be reminded  I only own goats, but I work with a lot of sheep and cows as well, so it's easy to get my wires crossed!

I bring up the DCAB because there are a handful of studies out there that are showing it to be relevant to goat calcium mobilization as well. Of course, it's dairy goats, so there is not much research out there unfortunately... But I thought it would be worth mentioning just out of interest.

Thanks again everybody for the great input!! I will put it to use!


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Edema is usually associated with feeding high protein grain, as is large kids. Have had problems with both. Going to a low protein grain pre-kidding took care of the problem. Have not had a problem with either feeding alfalfa hay.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Edema is usually associated with feeding high protein grain, as is large kids. Have had problems with both. Going to a low protein grain pre-kidding took care of the problem. Have not had a problem with either feeding alfalfa hay.


:yeahthat


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Rose said:


> http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f28/hy...k-between-calcium-phosphorus-sue-reith-16493/





Rose said:


> There are a few of us on another forum that have cut back or eliminated alfalfa, either due to expense or to problems from overly high protein in the goats' diet. Edema is reduced on a lower protein diet.


So you post the link to Sue Reith's article on hypocalcemia, which is the only real research on goats, and then say you don't feed alfalfa because someone on another forum says it causes edema. Did you educate them on Sue's research? Even if it did cause edema, I would chance that rather than hypocalcemia which will kill.


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