# help! can I give tiny 2 mo old safeguard when just had quest 3 days ago?



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

I'm new here and I know I need to make a signature and read rules..but trying to hurry because I seem to not get any answers on another forum when I post too late..I'm on Hawaii time. 

my question is if I can give my tiny little inbred 2 mo old doe safeguard for tapeworms that are killing her. I didn't realize that because I could see the worms they were tapeworms..so I had given her first cydectin. thought she was ill from a second bout of coccidiosis that she caught from it going around here with another herd of goats sharing the property. realized she prob needed wormer at 2 months...then I noticed 5 or 6 days later she was getting worse and grunting in pain and had worms coming out of her bum. Was told that was tape worms..but not until after I already tried quest wormer on her.

so now she's been through dymethox, cydectin..then 5 days later quest gel...and now it's been 3 days and I want to give her safeguard just for the tapeworms but not sure if I can give it to her yet. 

She is extreemly anemic..like a #5 on that chart..all white in her lids. Weak but still walking around here and there and eating alfalfa hay. I got her red cell today started her on that. 

I just want to kill these worms! should I wait a full week since her last wormer?

thanks!!

jamee

---
inserting a temp signature here: I'm an accidental goat momma...moved to home with goats on property that got lost in some transactions between a deal with the owner and the caretaker and both moving away...nobody wanted them.


----------



## FaithNJoyOberhasli (Apr 24, 2012)

Hi, Jamee! :welcome

Hopefully someone else will jump in here with a more definite, knowledgeable answer, but I would say do what you have to do--if the worms are taking her down, I'd take the chance with the Safeguard, which should be pretty safe anyway. Is there any chance she's dealing with liver flukes, too? In that case, I'd use Valbazen, since it should be effective on both. 

I hope she starts bouncing back for you quickly.


----------



## punchiepal (Aug 4, 2010)

Sounds like you need to do what you have to do. Here is the link to the dosages- http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f28/worms-wormers-21389/
Is she still eating from mom? If she is friendly enough you might want to try and offer her a bottle of milk, regular whole cows milk from the store is fine.


----------



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

Hi guys! Thank you! I forgot I have read that safeguard is pretty safe and hard to overdose on. But this gives me more confidence. She is just so tiny it's really got her down. I'll go give her some tonight then. 3x the dose is what I keep reading..even on the safeguard made for goats..I hope that is right!

I don't know if she has the liver flukes..I am just learn all this as needed. I can't get the valbazen though..the only place that carries it here has it for 61 bucks..I just don't have the money for that right now. If I do I won't be able to buy hay...it's 40 bucks a bail here. when I called the vet to see if I could buy a smaller quantity from them..they said they never heard of using that for a goat and did not suggest it...wanted me to use strongid. Once I get a little more $ gonna buy some valbazen and ivomec from jefferspet.


----------



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

someone just mentioned pinworms...but I was told that if you can see the worms in thier poop they are tape worms. I saw a picture of tape worms here: http://goat-link.com/content/view/72/109/#.Ub_NxPaDTL8 second page I think..these do not look like that. They are smaller..oval..rice like?

Now I don't know if I should use the safeguard tonight..hate to give her another drug she doesn't need.

Oh and she is very friendly..but mad when I try to give her a bottle..tried it already to giver her a little something extra ...ended up using a syringe. But wasn't sure if I was upsetting her tummy more by introducing a new kind of milk.


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Yes, give her the wormer.


----------



## FaithNJoyOberhasli (Apr 24, 2012)

Goat milk and cow milk are pretty much interchangeable for them--lots of people (us, too) switch back and forth with no problems, depending on what we have available. So, I wouldn't worry about that bothering her tummy, if you can get some in her.

And yes, tapes in the poop look a lot like rice. Saw them for the first time this spring. :ick With it being so wet, I was expecting them, actually. If not for DGI giving me a heads-up ahead of time so I would recognize them, I would have panicked! :crazy Mature tapes are big ol' nasty things. When they reproduce, they shed little rice-like segments in the poop. So most likely, both things you've seen/seen pictures of are tapes, just at different stages of development.


----------



## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Cydectin & quest are the same thing. I do believe tapes are not a bloodsucking worm so would not be causing anemia, but not 100% sure on a goat that young. Do a fecal, if you cant have your vet do one, that way your treating exactly what your doeling has and not guessing.


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Unless they are threadlike and wiggly, then they are pinworms. I've only seen them once.


----------



## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Tapeworm segments look like moving grains of rice. Use the wormer (safeguard). Here's the thing: even if the cydectin/quest took care of other worms that are causing the anemia, you won't see changes in her eyelids for some time, so don't assume that it didn't work just because her eyelids are still pale after a few days. I would worm with safeguard now, and in a week, take a stool sample to the vet for a fecal to see if it's all working.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

With the anemia I would be suspecting something else. When you dosed her with dimethox did you use the dosages listed here? I know other folks, even vets, will sometimes recommend a lesser dosage and it just doesn't work. And if she had a full blown case of cocci then it requires more than just a preventative dose.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

It is not unusual to have several types of worms at once. Cydectin for the bloodsuckers. Safeguard or Zimectrin Gold (or Valbazan) for the tapes. I like to use the Zimectrin Gold cause the effective dose is very small, versus the large amount of Safeguard needed. Liver flukes would be suspect if you have wet land with snails and slugs.


----------



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

Okay good..at least I know what worm I am dealing with...I have seen the wide section of the tapeworm in a goat here before...and these did not look like that so I was not sure. they did not look thready at all. and I understand that the anemia takes a while to recover from. 

I have both raised and supplemented a number of babies on whole cow milk...still supplementing one now...sadly this little girl will be more irritated then get to enjoy the extra treat. She's a sweetheart and wants attention..but wants nothing put in her mouth...so it will probably end up being from a syringe.

Yep you are correct tendermeadowsnigerian...I just read that tapeworms live in the intestine and steal the food nutrients..so not blood sucking but I'm sure it did not help the anemia if she was not getting proper nutrition to help build up more blood cells.

She looks not worse today....eating alfalfa hay and olive bush and drinking water. so hopefully with everyones help and days of internet reading I caught it time! I certainly got a new education on worming..never realized that you need to worm different wormers around the same time for different worms and that when you worm for the haeumonchus you need to worm 12 days later and then 12 days later again. time for me to look at my other goats and see what I need to do. I've got 4 of them on molly's herbal wormer and I give a dose of cydectin when needed and I realize now two have the tape worms. Two others are doing awesome on the herbal stuff as far as I can tell. shiny coats..always making berries..no visible worms.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

There are several internal parasites that can cause anemia:

Haemonchus-this is the main one
Coccidia-another big one for kids
Liverfluke

And several external parasites that can, too:

Sucking Lice
Keds


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Keds? I didn't know shoes were so dangerous to goats! No seriously, is this a typo or have I had goats all this time and not learned about these ked things.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Keds are a sheep parasite that can get on goats. They look like ticks, but they have 6 legs, not 8.


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Wow. What kind of tick do they look like? Are they just brown? How big? Do goats get them if they aren't around sheep? Learn something new every day.


----------



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

she did just have coccidia..so I think it was too much at once for her. 

A lot of the babies here tend to get those little white nits on thier fur around the base of thier ears and on thier cheeks..usually it goes away as they get older..some when they are sicklier get them worse and the vet gave me this horse spray in a green bottle..it has pyrinthium or somethign like that in it. She told me the nits were from a kind of fly? This little girl has them so bad and down her neck too. The caretaker washed her with soap and but that stuff on her too. I have put it on a couple of times. She is so itchy..always scratching against the fence. Could this be the blood sucking lice?

We also now have short haired sheep across the street...so maybe the keds have hopped over?


----------



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

doublebowgoats said:


> With the anemia I would be suspecting something else. When you dosed her with dimethox did you use the dosages listed here? I know other folks, even vets, will sometimes recommend a lesser dosage and it just doesn't work. And if she had a full blown case of cocci then it requires more than just a preventative dose.


sorry doublebowgoats...I didn't see this post until now. I used the dosages given by a vet here that matched up with dosages I got from research online and another forum. I mix one cup of water with 1.25 tsp of dimethox 107g powder. Then I dose first day at 1cc per 5 lbs and 1 cc per 10 lbs the other 4 to 6 days.

was that a treatment dose or a preventative dose?

She got coccidia like all the babies here did..they all had thier turn. But then the caretakers goats ...13 of them got it even grown ones. They were so deplete because he is rarely here to supplement them and this pasture grass is junk. I try to share my hay and feed but I can't afford to feed all of his goats. Plus I was going crazy taking care of all his babies that got coccidia plus my own issues with my small herd..so I had to close my mind towards his goats and try to just concentrate on my own. Well tons of his got sick and created tons more work for me becuase he is not here to dose with dimethox every day. two of my babies caught it again...this little girl with the anemia problem (her name is Twiggy) is one of them. So she got it again after being done with the dimethox for only 9 days. I know the growth cycle is 14 but I had to start her again on dimethox. So she's had it twice in a very short amount of time. The first time for 7 days..it was very hard to stop..took till the 5th day to stop diarrhea. The second time she responded to dimethox on the 3rd day.


----------



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

swgoats said:


> It is not unusual to have several types of worms at once. Cydectin for the bloodsuckers. Safeguard or Zimectrin Gold (or Valbazan) for the tapes. I like to use the Zimectrin Gold cause the effective dose is very small, versus the large amount of Safeguard needed. Liver flukes would be suspect if you have wet land with snails and slugs.


is this the right zimectin gold? http://www.jefferspet.com/zimecterin-gold/camid/EQU/cp/M0-Z2/

it's way cheaper then the valbazen and smaller to ship here to Maui. covers the reg worms, the tape and the lung worms which I am worried about since i have a few goats that seem to be coughing often. does cydectin take care of lung worms?...that is what they have been on..but not the proper way where you redo again 12 days later and then again.

Is zimectin gold a gel like Quest gel? I found that extreemly hard to figure out how to dose this tiny 11 pound little goat..and then to get it into a syringe to even measure it..almost impossible 

Our ground doesn't seem like that..we have a lot of sun and rain at the same time. We just came out of a very rainy spring..but the trade winds and the sun comes out the next day or two and dries it all up. and a lot of our rain is this sideways mist in the wind. Their grass is very short and bushy...it's like they pick at the tops and the underneath is springy and brown. The caretaker says it's like a wet hot house at the base of it though..growing all the worms.

We do have a LOT of slugs here that I see come out at night for the cat and chicken food. I don't know where they hide in the day..I never see them in the grass. But now I wonder if the goaties have the liver flukes from the slugs. does the zimectin gold cover those? I don't see it listed on the info. Or do I have to get ivomec plus?


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Ashley said:


> Wow. What kind of tick do they look like? Are they just brown? How big? Do goats get them if they aren't around sheep? Learn something new every day.


They are pretty small. I can't remember what all the different kinds of ticks are like, because we really only have one kind around here, and I think it might be the "brown dog tick", but keds are about the same size (before the tick is engorged). They are actually a wingless fly, I guess. My friend brought her sheep here to be shorn when the shearer came out, and they were covered in them (discovered when they got shorn). So, then of course my sheep and goats got them. (YUCK). I just used a pour-on pyrethrin (or permethrin?) that is for cattle lice and flies, and it was labeled for sheep keds too, dosed twice at 10 days apart. I think the keds prefer really fuzzy spots to hide, because before I treated everyone, at first the sheep had a few, but within a couple days, I didn't see any on the freshly shorn sheep and my super-fuzz-ball Nigerian doe had several. I am sure a goat could get it from another goat, as well as from a sheep.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

jonara said:


> she did just have coccidia..so I think it was too much at once for her.
> 
> A lot of the babies here tend to get those little white nits on thier fur around the base of thier ears and on thier cheeks..usually it goes away as they get older..some when they are sicklier get them worse and the vet gave me this horse spray in a green bottle..it has pyrinthium or somethign like that in it. She told me the nits were from a kind of fly? This little girl has them so bad and down her neck too. The caretaker washed her with soap and but that stuff on her too. I have put it on a couple of times. She is so itchy..always scratching against the fence. Could this be the blood sucking lice?


Usually lice will be all over the goat, not just on the ears and cheeks, I'm not sure what kind of parasite would do that. We do have problems here with these gnats, I think my father in law calls them buffalo gnats, but they will really bite on little newborn llama ears and faces, but especially inner ears. They get all scabby and bloody. I have seen the same insects chomping on the underbellies of my goats, and sometimes on their foreudders, but they don't tend to harass the goats as much as the poor llamas, especially newborns.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

jonara said:


> We also now have short haired sheep across the street...so maybe the keds have hopped over?


Keds, like lice, don't live very long off of the animal, so I doubt they would be able to travel that far. So, unless your goats have had close contact with the sheep, I doubt it.


----------



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

fmg said:


> Usually lice will be all over the goat, not just on the ears and cheeks, I'm not sure what kind of parasite would do that. We do have problems here with these gnats, I think my father in law calls them buffalo gnats, but they will really bite on little newborn llama ears and faces, but especially inner ears. They get all scabby and bloody. I have seen the same insects chomping on the underbellies of my goats, and sometimes on their foreudders, but they don't tend to harass the goats as much as the poor llamas, especially newborns.


I was looking through her fur today and I do see them throughout it but not in concentration like it is on her cheeks and down her neck. someone on the Big Island is sending over some CyLence for me to try on it. I did notice she had a really bad problem with what I was told by the vet that used to caretake here last year ring worm on her nose. It was very scabby and built up. Some of the babies used to get it but I hadn't seen it for a while and hers was the worst I'd ever seen. perhaps it wasn't that and was that buffalo gnat. It's healing now..I had put apple cider vin on it and coconut oil a couple of times.


----------



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

fmg said:


> Keds, like lice, don't live very long off of the animal, so I doubt they would be able to travel that far. So, unless your goats have had close contact with the sheep, I doubt it.


No then they would not be close enough I think. not unless they would walk across the street and find her in the huge pasture.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

"is this the right zimectin gold? http://www.jefferspet.com/zimecterin-gold/camid/EQU/cp/M0-Z2/
Is zimectin gold a gel like Quest gel? I found that extreemly hard to figure out how to dose this tiny 11 pound little goat..and then to get it into a syringe to even measure it..almost impossible "

Yes, that's it. For babies it's basically just a lick - .25 to .5 a ml. I don't fuss much over the dosage. I just give them a little dab on the back of the tongue. For Liverfluke you have give Ivomec Plus. I can't remember off the top of my head about lungworm.


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Liverfluke is a long cycled parasite. It doesn't reach the liver for 3 to 4 months after being picked up. Normally here, where it's a large problem, we do Ivo plus at 6 months and every spring and fall afterward. It doesn't seem to be a baby problem.


----------



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

swgoats said:


> "is this the right zimectin gold? http://www.jefferspet.com/zimecterin-gold/camid/EQU/cp/M0-Z2/
> Is zimectin gold a gel like Quest gel? I found that extreemly hard to figure out how to dose this tiny 11 pound little goat..and then to get it into a syringe to even measure it..almost impossible "
> 
> Yes, that's it. For babies it's basically just a lick - .25 to .5 a ml. I don't fuss much over the dosage. I just give them a little dab on the back of the tongue. For Liverfluke you have give Ivomec Plus. I can't remember off the top of my head about lungworm.


Okay..I was thinking it was so hard to dose the babies with the gel stuff..that is not too hard.

I was reading that levamisole is good for lungworm...and I have it here from when a vet was the care taker here..but what I read said to inject it and teh vet always gave it orally. We stopped using it when the new caretaker took over because it had been a couple years of using it so he brought in cydectin. I read that cydectin is supposed to work on lungworms though. I think the goat I have that coughs the most is just old. But then I have a year 1/2 old that is always coughing.


----------



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

skeeter said:


> Liverfluke is a long cycled parasite. It doesn't reach the liver for 3 to 4 months after being picked up. Normally here, where it's a large problem, we do Ivo plus at 6 months and every spring and fall afterward. It doesn't seem to be a baby problem.


good to know...then at least this little baby must not have that one.

I need a 'plan' is there anywhere a good worming 'plan' is written out? like a normal wormer to use..and then how often to treat for tapes and then like you said for the ivo for liverflukes...when to start..how often etc? I'm actually passing all of this info on the caretaker who is learning as he goes as well..I thought he knew more..but I'm finding out he doesn't..but he's at least very open to the info I bring to him and supposed to be bringing money here tomorrow for me to order some things for him on Jeffers pet. He's got 30 other goats on this property besides my herd.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Check the Goat Keeping 101 section. There is a big topic there on raising kids called "From Birth to Kidding". Has most the schedules and stuff you would need.


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Here, Hawaii does have Liver Flukes.
http://www.hawaii.edu/ansc/Old/Proceed/Aggrowth/fasciola.htm


----------



## jonara (Jun 16, 2013)

fmg said:


> Check the Goat Keeping 101 section. There is a big topic there on raising kids called "From Birth to Kidding". Has most the schedules and stuff you would need.


thanks..that did have a lot off good info.


----------

