# Emotional issues regarding goats



## Nupine (Nov 2, 2007)

I was almost too embarrased to make this topic, but it is bugging me too much. Right now, things are going good with the goats, I am learning so much here on how to improve my deworming skills and stuff like that and hope to get a fecal and get some new wormer this week. I sold two hayburnering does last month, and made $100, and they went to a great home. I reserved a super nice first freshener, that will GREATLY improve my herd. Roseanne is renting out a doe of mine who is a ''sale barn gem'' who turned into a hayburner and now may be a useful milker and producer. I have at least one of my own does freshening this year. My dad and I are doing major improvements to the goat barn. The problem is that a week ago I was SOOO excited about all this, but not so much now. There seems to be times when I am so anxious to get things going, and others I just want to sell about half my herd and keep the ones I am really attached too as pets. If you are lost, let me explain. Last night I was talking to my best friend Paige. Her family raises Alpines [she isn't too into goats], they are poor and kind of rely on their goats and other animals for food. I was telling her how our little Heidi goat was really sick and we took her to the vet and she had worm overload. Heidi has caused us quite the number of problems in her life, and may almost be deemed useless. But, my mom and I are just so attached to her. She is so meek, and was one of our first kids born here. Very special to us. Paige said, ''Why don't you just take that goat to the sale barn?''. Although to her that sounds like the obvious answer, that would NEVER happen. Honestly, although we raise Alpines, I have a doe named Daisy, a Nupine I think, she was my first goat and knows how to shake hands. She is what brought me into goats 4 yrs ago. A wether named Simon. I got him at a sale barn when he was a lethargic, wormy, sickly week old goat. He is now 155 pounds and a ''lover'' . Stella, a comical little boer cross doe, who goes to visit the elderly at nursing homes. She is soooo ugly shes cute. She has like 6 inch long hair growing along her spine, and sometimes I put it into a ponytail. Stewy, Stella's only son who looks liek a cow and is my buck's companion/cart goat trainee. And last but now least, my beautiful Alpine doe Hannah, who is the sweetest doe I have, but she had a little precocious udder when I got her from a reputable breeder as a kid, and that turned into full blown, horrible mastitis. Seh has kidded twice, both times with a single doe kid, and is semi retired. One side of her udder was functional, and the other half is not painful anymore, but she left with scar tissue. There has been $100's of dollars and hours of time put into making her better. These goat live with my Alpine herd, and are all so special to me. Am I crazy? Also, I am getting stressed about this summer. I will have 3 does to milk, and I am the only milker in the family, and I will be going away to camp this summer, so I am getting soo stressed about that. So far on our farm, we have had 7 does and 2 bucks. I sold buck as a wether to a good home [with his sister] and the other is Stewy. I am vegetarian, and I don't think I would have a problem selling wethers for meat, if it wasn't through the stupid sale barn, and they were going to be treated humanely. I would prefer to find nice homes for as many as I could though, is that possible? I simply care about all my goats. I am more in it because I love goats, we do not rely on our goats a a main source of income whatsoever. Not even close. I was considering maybe taking a couple as market projects through 4-H, where I would make a lot more money. But I am afraid I would get attached and have a meltdown at the last minute, liek soem cattle people do. And look liek a fool. Heck, I got all sad when this cute little ugly alien goat was sold for meat at the fair. He looked so sad, lol. I also hate the word cull. What is the exact definition of that? I here breeder's ''culling'' a doe who is ''weak in the chine''. I mean, is that really such a huge problem? I jsut don't know, why I get so stressed about this stuff. I love goats, and I love milking, feedign kids, and most of all, waiting on a doe to kid and seeing the birth. But sometimes, with all my problems, I feel I am jsut not cut out to be a dairy goat person. I get teary eyed when I sell kids, yet I have never cried when a family member has died. I must be crazy. I probably seem like a weirdo to all of you, I put a reservation on a nice doe, I have huge worm problems, and now this. I am jsut looking for help, advise, encouragement, anything, but please don't be too harsh. I anyone else even a bit like me? Thanks.
Ashlyn


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh you aren't alone. I get attached to mine to. I did good with selling kids this year, but there were a couple in particular I was sad to see go, and I still even think about them from time to time. But I knew when they were born that I wasn't keeping them and that was that. I can't keep 20 bucks around or I will have to sacrifice care for other animals. There are only so many resources, I refuse to keep more animals than I can care for with those resources. And if I keep more productive animals, that's more resources to help out as well. There are a LOT of great animals out there that are a joy to own, but I can let someone else own and enjoy them, right? Why should I want to hoard every friendly animal I ever see? lol It's ok if someone else gets the joy of having that animal.

So I think you have to just think about things and make up your mind and then follow through. It's the _indecision_ that is stressful. I have certain does I am unwilling to ever sell. They are my first ones and it just wouldn't feel like "my herd" without them. They are pets, productive pets. But if they stopped being productive, I would still keep them until they die. I can't make that decision with very many animals, but I can with a couple of them, I just can't let myself keeping adding to the pile! A few hard and fast rules or I will have 100 animals I can't afford.

So I think you have to find your balance. And I'm not saying it's easy. I have a hard time with them going to slaughter, I have to remind myself they are NOT little furry people.


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## Nupine (Nov 2, 2007)

Thanks a lot, that was great. I like the, ''they are not little furry people''. More productive animals, that is good. Another thing that I forgot to put, but that most of my pets are not super attractive. Simon, the wether, has the worst conformation I have ever seen, and Hannah's deformed udder would probably make people think I don't care about her, but that couldn't be less true. She has never looked this good and healthy, and is jsut left with scar tissue. I am just afraid that all my ''pets'' would scare potential buyers away from my nice animals.
Ashlyn


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

"I am just afraid that all my ''pets'' would scare potential buyers away from my nice animals"Ashlyn

Ashlyn, if your "PETS" are healthy and your sales stock are healthy and they run together, why would that scare someone away? If I am going to a herd to look for potential animals I would take that into mind about your management. You don't have to give any explanation to buyers about your pets, other than are they also tested for CAE, CL and so on. If these "pets" are in your financial budget and aren't taking away from your productive herd...do what you think is best. I will repeat some words of wisdom said here on DGI: If the animal is not productive you are wasting money. Sickly goats cost money that could be spent on alfalfa that is used herd wide. So that decision is yours. Rather than the sales barn post an ad on Craigs list under farm/garden. You can find many people who are looking for family milkers, field munchers, and people looking for affordable quality meat. This last one I even have a hard time doing but...you gotta do what you gotta do to keep those numbers down.

Here, what you are talking about, goes on constantly. Only we (Lindsey and I) have to come to decisions together, so it makes decision making alot harder. We do have a couple of set rules though. #1. Goat capacity is 12, does and bucks. We have 11. #2. Only purchase healthy tested stock. #3. No kids or adults are kept that are not good conformity, notice I said GOOD...we are working for excellence/for that great conformity. #4. Now at kidding season the boys are castrated to become field munchers or meat, unless someone reserves one. They will not recieve names. #5 have some productive purpose, such as Demi, our wether, he is a companion animal for now, this summer he will go back in the cart and haul Lindsey around.
How you decide to run your herd is up to you and what you can afford to do with them.
Tam


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## Nupine (Nov 2, 2007)

Thanks, I really like your rules. Other than the worm and growth problems I am having, but will be fixing this week, they really shouldn't scare anyone off.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Ashlyn, you have animals that you are responsible for - and dairy goats ARE a big responsibility. Don't feel like you are the only one that feels overwhelmed at times. I have days where I wish I could just stay in bed and talk on the phone isntead of hauling buckets and hay and milking. 

You mentioned a few things that you will be losing sleep over - like the summer camp. Who will milk the does? You do need to train someone or find someone who can help. Otherwise you will be coming home to mastitis and other problems. I felt the most overwhelmed when I didn't have anyone at all to "help", outside of our family. Now I have a friend close by who can cover for my emergencies and I can cover hers and life is much easier. Network as much as you can, go to shows, talk to folks, etc. 

Since you are just learning the ropes, keep your herd small and managable. 

No shame in being attached to animals who may not be beautiful by someone else's standards. Frankly, goats win people over for their personalities, not their loooks. 

You can't keep them all, that is the first thing to come to terms with. Another one is that eventually the goaties will have to find a way to pay for themselves so you can afford to keep them .... showing, milk sales, soaping, etc.

What is your goal with goats, you mention improving quality. Where do you see yourself in a few years? You can find a way where your quality sales stock provides enough to support the pets you want to keep. 

Try to identify what really stresses you the most and tackle those things one at a time. Is it your current set up - will a new barn and better pasture help? Is it not having anyone to substitute you as a milker and care taker when you get sick, are away from home, etc? 
Are you stressed because of the need to rehome some of your animals adn wanting to provide good homes for them? Once you identify what the problems really are, you can deal with them much better. 

We can help you brainstorm here 

Jana


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Really, it all comes down to your own personal goals. And those, only YOU can decide.

I would imagine, like most of us, you have room for X number of goats. Period. Set that number, and then go from there.

Do you want a show herd? You can still keep pets, but remember -- every spot that is taken up by a pet, is one less show goat you can own.

If you want a herd of pets, then there is nothing at all wrong with that! But perhaps you don't want to breed them after all? 

What you have to realize is that if you breed goats -- you WILL eventually have to cull. Culling means nothing more than removing them from your herd. Yes, I cull for a weak chine -- because in MY herd, I would consider it a huge fault. Culling does not necessarily mean killing -- heck, there are culls from some herds I would snatch up in a minute, lol. 

You must have a plan for what you will do with excess bucklings -- before they are on the ground.

If you are the only person who can/will milk, then you are going to have to either skip camp or dry the does off before you go. OR -- trade off chores or pay someone to come and milk for you. That is just the reality of dairy animals I'm afraid.


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## Nupine (Nov 2, 2007)

Thank you guys so much. All my pets have great personalities, and that is why I love them. My only nice milker at this moment doesn't have a very good temperment, she is very high strung and pushy, and not super friendly. She also hogs the feeders. but she is a milker, and a good one and I like her for that. My goats make me happy, that is my main reason for having them. They all just make me happy in different ways. Thanks Tracy for explaining culling, so culling could simply be selling a doe as a family milker [to people who don't want to show] instead of keeping her for your show string? The pasture is small, but the barn is pretty good sized, the goat area is 16' x 22', and we are adding a 10' x 12' area soon. I am not sure how many goats I could have in that space, but I don't think I want more than 15-20, pets and bucks including. During kidding season that number could grow, but then go back down. As far as camp during the summer, we do have an Udderly EZ Milker, and I hope that will do. My mom has very screwed up hands from working, and she can't grip a teat well enough to milk whatsoever. I have tried to teach her many times, and she can't even get a squirt out. I don't want to try anyone up because fair is a couple months after camp. Missing camp, honestly, isn't an option. Not that I HAVE to, or that it isn't possible to miss it, this will be my first year as a camp counseler and I have looked forward to it for years. It may also be the last camp I will enjoy with my best friend before she moves. Dairy goats are a huge responsibility, I never thought they would be. They are also expensive to maintain. I also never thought they would be. Especially when we effortless decided to purchase a cheap little doeling at the hay/livestock sale 4 years ago. I hope to eventually make and sell soap.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

OK I probaby am going to really burst your bubble here but here goes. 
How many goats do you have now including your pets? 16 x22 and 10 x 12 are not big enough at all IMO for even the goats you have mentioned above unless there is more pasture and room to move around elsewhere that you haven't told us abt. This would be why you have so much problem with cocci and worms. Now even with me on 2 acres I have a problem with that and have to stay on top of it constantly because I had too many goats on the area. I personally think you don't really need at this time more goats keep the one milker to use for family milk and your pets. Don't plan on keeping any new spring babies plan on pulling them at birth, bottle feeding and sell , don't name them and put them on a lambar within 3 days of birth, so you don't get attached.  Your Mom can probably handle the milking of one goat using the ez milker and you can enjoy camp. Then next year re evaluate your desires and go from there. Be excited abt getting the barn fixed / a new pen and love on your goats.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

I don't know your living situation, or how many people you know, but I've found people to milk my goats when I can't that will do it for the milk alone. whatever they can get out, they get to keep! They love it! talking to people about goats, letting them know you have goats is a great way to start.

Keeping it small is some thing to have to resolve with yourself. _Goats multiply exponentially_, and they all require food. If they're not paying for themselves, then they're just pasture potatoes, and _your_ paying for them.. Making and selling soap is a great way for them to pay for themselves BTW.

Selling kids.. when I started out, I practically gave 'em away, especially the boys.. that's one reason I like to bottle feed..when they ask "when can I come get them", I say NOW! here's the baby, here's the bottle! Ok, so I don't just throw kids at people, but I also don't ask what they want them for either. that way you can pretend all you want about their future. But seriously, they can't all become pets and that's a hard fact about livestock.

We've pretty much all been there, where you are. Goats have such personality and they're very addicting! This is a great place to bounce around ideas.. and I hope we've helped, even a bit


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

In a book I have about animal housing, it says 25 square feet per adult doe, 30 per buck--that's in the barn. I don't have #s for pasture space, and everyone does that differently, depending on the situation. So, in my current situation, 16 does, 4 bucks are possible, and I think that's really pushing it. I won't keep more than 2 bucks, until I learn to AI and then those will be in a tank! While I want to eventually keep more does, it will just have to wait until we can build a bigger barn. When you overcrowd, not only parasite issues become a bigger battle, but you set yourself up for more health problems in general--mastitis, chemical pneumonia, etc.

When I decided to sell out of Nubians and get Alpines, I was very blessed for my "cull" Nubians to go to some great homes (the does are pampered more now than ever, if that's possible) and I filled my barn with culls from Tracy (and her culls are nothing to sneeze at! In fact, I could brag about them all day, and if I told you why she was culling them, you might think her a bit looney! I do. In a good way, of course. :biggrin )

Most of all, it sounds like you first need a big hug! Then, sit down and decide what your goals are, what you can afford, and what you need to do to reach them. If you want pets that will only cost money and provide hugs, it really is okay--as long as you're realistic and can afford that w/o the rest of your herd paying for them in less feed, care, etc. The parasite stuff is a lot easier than it seems in the midst of it all--meds and time (fecal and keep watch) will get them back on track. Make sure you're tackling coccidia as well as worms. I also have a feeling that when you get some very nice stock to fill your barn and heart, it will be easier to give the joy of owning some of your unproductive pets to others. I wasn't sure I was going to be able to sell my Nubians (my first goats and they were productive), but when my Alpines arrived, and I found good buyers, it was far easier than anticipated.

Too bad you can't take your girls to camp with you.  Yep--start looking for willing and able folks to milk now.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Hi Stacy,
It certainly does sound as if you are a bit overwhelmed at the moment. Hopefully, like Sondra mentioned, you have more pasture space than you wrote about. I do know that large commercial herds keep many goats in a small area and bring their feed to them, instead of pasturing them out. They are often housed on cement and the areas are scraped regularly with a tractor. It could be done on a smaller scale I guess, but seems very labor intensive, and not healthy for your animals or property. 
You do have the option of seperating your show/breeding stock from your pets and that is what I would do. The reason being is that if you are just feeding pets, and especially wethers, you can give them lots of hay, but very little, if any grain, or other expensive feeds. I have a wether and would keep him in with my does, but he will eat wayyyy too many alfalfa pellets. This goat only gets hay and browse and minerals. He is NOT thin because he is not working. My one dry doe this year was fed grain with my milkers and got too fat and nearly foundered and now her feet look like crud. 
If you can seperate those goats who you are breeding/milking from those you are not, and put your feed money into the "working girls" then you will be better off. Of course, the "pets" will need all the same wormings, medications, bo-se, etc. that the rest of the herd gets, but my biggest expense is feed and if a goat isn't working and I have no plans for it to be working, I would not feed expensive grains that it doesn't need.
On the ez milker, watch that device because if I'm thinking of it right, it has a continuous suction which can ruin udders. Someone else should chime in here as I've not used it, but I remember other members posting about it last year. 
I've sold several goats on Craigslist and are satisfied they went to great homes, especially my milkers. I can only milk about 4-5 does without feeling overwhelmed so must sell some every year. All the does that I breed are great quality and produce serious amounts of milk. If they were not good quality, but I wanted to keep them, I would not breed them and I would keep them seperate from the main herd, probably out with the horses full time where they would still get lots of attention from me, and be able to eat hay to their hearts content with the horses, but would not have access to the alfalfa pellet feeders, grain bins, etc. 
good luck, stick with the forum and take good advice and things will definately get better!


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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

I also want to add that I think this is a normal part of the cycle. My friend Katie calles it the January Blues.. where the does are bred, the goats look like crap and no babies to perk your spirits. I look at my own herd and pick them apart, I could sell the whole lot if someone walked up to me with cash. 

Regardless of where you are in your breeding program/goals, for many people, this is the time of year when nothing seems right, even when nothing is going wrong. It will pass.....

Ken (who has an entire herd of fat, crappy Nigerians if anyone is interested) :sigh


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

OH how right you are Ken, yep we all go thru this.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

"Ken (who has an entire herd of fat, crappy Nigerians if anyone is interested) Sigh"

LOL! I have felt that way many times! Especially this time of year.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Ken "Lol" You crack me up. It is that time of year isn't it.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

um, Ken, exactly how much cash are we talking about? lol!


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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

Billie,

Entire herd, or a select group!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Ahhhh..... my husband would kill me! But now I know which time of year to catch you! :biggrin I bet your full grown does are still small enough to fly, too...


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Oh Ken, I don't believe you have a crappy goat in the group! :biggrin


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## Nupine (Nov 2, 2007)

Hello. Sondra, in all respect, I don't appreciate the criticism that I don't feel I deserve, particularly since you have not seen my housing arrangements. So let me get all this confusion cleared up. If you do the math, and give each goat 25 sq ft, then that would come to 19 goats comfortably in that space, with no other exercise area. I currently have 8 goats in there. 4 pets and 4 Alpines. Usually my Nubian doe is in there as well, but she is at Roseanne's being leased. They have 24/7 access to a 125' by 100' square outside pen. It isn't a dry lot, but it doesn't have a ton of vegetation in it either. It may be expanded eventually. Inside my barn, the area I mentioned does not include the 8' by 6' kidding pen we are building or my milking area. The barn floor is dirt, and other than one small corner that is filled with uneaten hay, the entire goat area is raked every few days year round. My Alpine buck and my wether live on the other side of our property, in a 50' x 75' pen with an 8' by 8' barn. They are very content there. They have a straw floor. I am not mad, but I am just clearing this up. I may be just learning when it comes to some management practices, but my barn and pen set up is very, very nice. My goats are FAR from being over crowded. As far as my feeding practices. The goats in the main barn all receive about 1/3 pound of 16% goat grain each seperated in 2 feedings morning and night. This is offered to everyone there. Does get much more while being milked. I begin to slowly increase does ration during the last 4-6 weeks of pregnancy. It goes up to 2-3 pounds a day by their due date. Kids receive creep feed up until about 5-6 months of age. The goats in the main barn receive a total of about 6 flakes of goat hay per day. Anita, although it would be nice to seperate the pets, unless I sell the buck, it simply isn't possible, unless I kept them in the dark-hole of a horse stall, which wouldn't be very nice for them. Since I can tailor my care for the milkers, it seems to work out. Ken, you really cracked me up! That is really how I feel. But with the support I have gotten from all of you, and plus I have a Junior Fairboard Conference in Columbus next Tuesday to look forward to, and I got a perm today and had a refreshing Frappe from McDonalds. YUM! Thanks yall.
Ashlyn


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

For me it's the girls are dried up, only milking two new does  so there is no milk sales and a list of deposits that I can't touch  Course I am not a baby person, enjoy the process and seeing the kids, but if I could get someone to take them and raise them and give them back when they are due to deliver I would have a much larger herd.

I think it totally depends upon the age and size of your goats. Birdy/Babs/Shoofly all live in a 10x10 stall which is enough room for the 3 of them but any other does that age here would easily fit 4. But the 20x20 stall can easily fit more than the 16 that 25x25 would give you...the smaller the pen the more room you need. But then we rarely have weather that keeps the girls in the pens for extended periods of time and all but one pen has overhangs they can loaf in also.

Nobody would steal the goats this time of year, fat, hairy, other than there are no horns not alot of difference between them and the nannnnies down the road  But nope, none for sale  Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

This is so funny to me- This is when I love my goats the most. I love them fat and sporting that winter coat and not making me work all the time! When I get discouraged is when they all dump all that good roundness into the bucket and start shedding and looking halfway to auction time. But yes-it's a downer with no earning going on right now. It's amazing how they are the hungriest when they are not bringing in any cashflow!
Lee


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

I so agree Lee! I just love my babies all fat & furry :yes and they're so hormonal & lovey, well at least to me. :rofl


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

I am just glad I am not the only emotional one here! My main pen the girls are from one extreme to the other 2 girls that want lots of loving scratches and hope I havea treat for them. Then there is the other one (you do not want to hear the names I have called her lately) the other day I was in there had already twisted my ankle on the slushy snow and she went to ram me I grabbed her head and held her while I leaned down and got a handful of snow. You should have seen the look on her face it was utter shock that I would do that to her however she went to the other side of the pen and just stole glances at me with her pityful looks. Now she goes as far from me as she can and eyes us jealously when I am scratching and loving on her pen mates. I have a huge amount of medical, emtional ( gotta love those members of your family) and financial issues ( due to the medical issues and delightful insurance companies) going on and there are times I just want to give up on the homesteading thing until I go out and Gracie runs up to me for treats and the other girls waqnt to burrow under my arms for scratches and I think I give to them and they give back to me. 

I love the babies also the bouncy goofy part of them.

I even love my dogs the airedale that while walking her with my kids on Sunday almost attacked the Aussi from across the road. I guess it was because we were with her so I had to give her a talking to because she allows the dog in the yard if we are not outside I have 14 puppies to prove it. Me to Misti "You bark at him now but you sure did not when.......It's a little late now. My Great Pyrenes that barks in the night but has different barks for the cats, the goats, people or animals that don't belong, makes it much easier then having to go out every 15 minutes when the barn cats walk by her, she barks at them but snuggles up to let them sleep with her.

When I first found out about my CAE+ does I cried so bad, they were the first goats I had (newbie mistake) but have gotten to the point where I realize now that the extra work for my family and I and as soon as they kid they are gone, fatal either by myself (OK a friend probably) or at a university I have offered them to for research reasons.

I have sat down with my husband and we have made plans for our homestead and where we want to be in 2 years 5 years and 10 years, emotions aside I am the emotional one he is the MANS man (until you sneek out to the barn when he is taking just a little bit longer to run out there and catch him holding the kids and taking baby talk to the little ones). Only you can decided what you want to do for your farm and for yourself. Think it over make a decision and go from there.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Ken, thank you for the laugh!!!

Ashlyn, I grew up on a farm, had 4H sheep and FFA cattle and I was so successful at it that I made enough money I had to pay taxes as a kid! I had to support my horse habit, lol.

Our sheep and beef meat was labeled in the freezer by the animals' names. It was just a part of life. We saw the hawks eat the bunnies, the chickens eat the lizards, every body eats somebody... Despite that, there was one sheep that wormed his way into my heart and never got eaten and just became a pet. His name was Samuel and he went jogging with me and was a buddy. I know, a sheep with personality, who could have imagined...

We had a thuggy gang of HUGE wether goats with even huger horns, who ate our firebreak clear, and protected my mother's ridiculous exotic birds at night. If I were a coyote or racoon, I would definitely go down the road or hit the guinea flock or something a lot easier than mess with those guys! They were the caprine equivalent of a Vigilante Gang, lol. The immigrant laborers would sometimes buy one for meat. They got close to zero care. But there was one, a teeny tiny one by their standards, that was going to get culled until I saw him ON one of my horses' backs one day! This was a BROAD backed short cutting horse, but it was still quite a surprise. I use to train my animals for all kinds of crazy tricks and perform with rodeo clown so I knew opportunity when I saw it and he became a pet too.

We had lots of chickens that were food, and a few that were pets. That's my point with all the animals, YOU set your goals and criteria and you can have criteria for more than one category for a species. You can have pet criteria and dairy criteria and spare yourself the inbetween agony. 

Write down your resources of space/time/$, your goals and criteria, re-evaluate them at some reasonable time, like after your primary season, not in the dead of winter as Ken says, lol. Don't second guess yourself all the time, but be a dispassionate analyst at your re-evaluation dates, then pretend you are analyzing a stranger's business goals and performance.

Thanks for refreshing my memory! I should take my own advice nowadays, LOL as I've been agonizing about the lowest dairy quality doe I have, a dry yearling who is just the sweetest thing and best goat ambassadress ever at events and schools. I was so much smarter when I was a teenager!


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## chewie (Jul 26, 2008)

i am also newer at goats, and oh, selling those first crop babies, ouch! but ya know, after they left, and chores only took a short time, i had more time for my good favorites, the sadness was over faster than i thought. i had more room, more feed, more time, more milk to keep, and that feels great!


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## Nupine (Nov 2, 2007)

Chewie, you are right, chores do get much easier once the babies are gone. I have only sold about 5 goats, and chores were easier once they were sold. That was very interesting Lacia, about your success as a teenager. I sort of envy that. I also read an article in DGJ about a 4-Her who decided to raise Oberhaslis, and not only paid off her investment, but made a large enough profit to buy a car, a computer, and also money for college. That is the complete opposite of me right now. But I will admit, I did a very good job profiting with chickens this year, for 4-H, in two projects. One of them, I purchased 50 baby female chicks, then raised them til about 2 1/2 months old, and sold them. I made a PROFIT of $125 off of 47 chickens I sold doing that. It was great. I also raised meat chickens and made a profit of about $200 from the ones I sold at the fair, and my parents had the other 16 to eat here. I just wish I could be the same way with goats. Lee, you really are so right. The animals don't look so good right now. My Feb. Alpine kid, Adele [who is small anyways because of the worms I am now working to control] completely resembles a pygmy with her very furry coat, fuzzy cheeks, and fatness. But she is soooo cute anyway!
Ashlyn


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## Patti (Dec 29, 2009)

My daughter and I have it really, really bad. Both my son and daughter show their goats in our 4H. This will be their 3rd year with owning their own goats. The first year it wasn't that bad, as they were on a friend's farm and I didn't get to spend a lot of time with them. This past year was awful! My son had 2 boer wethers that were amazing! This goats were a bit shy when we first got them, but just sitting in their pen with feed in our hands and talking gently, they soon became members of our family. 

We named them Fat Tony and Sammy the Sammich. The things these two boys did was always funny! Fat Tony once got his head stuck in a lawn chair and ran into his stall it was quite funny, especially since Fat Tony came out all right. My daughter would be sitting in their "area" with a tank top on and Fat Tony loved to come up from behind and grab her tank top and bra strap and snap it. He was such a crazy boy. The chickens loved the boys, one in particular named Girl Cutie (hubby named her) and she would sit on Sammy's back. I have pictures of Fat Tony turning around to Sammy and gently kissing the chicken. Both boys took Reserve and Grand Champions at our county and state fair. We were able to get Sammy back, but Fat Tony had to be sold at the State.

While my son was extremely happy that Fat Tony won, I was very upset. Fat Tony did bring in $1200 from the auction, but after they take out money for the scholarships (good thing) and the auctioneer, my son ended up with $400 in his pocket. I was sooooo mad that he sold our friend for $400!!! I hate it when boer people keep telling me to relax, he is/was a terminal animal. How does that make it easier? To me, it makes it harder because I want to spoil and give this "terminal" animal the best and happiest life, as he made us laugh and love goats even more. 

When Sammy was back home, he was lonely without Fat Tony. Things just weren't the same. I also started looking at what would be best for everyone - we have 2 Nubian does that we were having bred, and a nubian wether named Grumpy. I didn't want to part with Sammy, but a friend called me asking me if I had a spare goat to be a friend for a lonely baby calf. Sammy and Grumpy both went to live with them, and their daughters plan on showing both boys as their "showmanship" goats this year.

I have vowed that I will NOT interact with the males. My son is already talking about his future wethers, and it is hard. I keep trying to get him to interact more with Daisy, as she won't be going any where soon. He prefers the boers, and while I love my girls, I agree with him on some points. Maybe it's just because of how close we got Fat Tony and Sammy, their long lovely lashings, big eyes and silly antics. 

My advise here is do what makes you happy, but also consider what would best for your pocket book and goats in the end. Sometimes, it is hard to part with one, but there will always be another that might make you even happier.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Nupine, I am very sorry if I offened you. However I was referring to your previous post
which said "the goat area is 16' x 22', and we are adding a 10' x 12' area soon. I am not sure how many goats I could have in that space" 
That was the reason I posted as I did. Only meaning to state that over crowding causes a heavier worm load. Keep in mind we all started out in a similar way and some of use still have a very small area to keep our goats in. I was trying to help not critisize.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

This is our happy time with the goats. We only need to feed them once a day, give them their water once a day, and check on them before bed. I like not having the milking chores hanging over my head on top of everything else I need to do. I miss the fresh milk, but it's a lot of work and sometimes the pressure of having to handle everything with 4 little ones, and a hubby who is so busy is very hard to do. I question the worth of what we are doing, too. I just hope I don't look back at it all and see it as a total waste of our time. :nooo

Ashlyn, this board has a lot to offer in the way of management for your goats. Copper bolusing and correct worming will help a lot. Once those things are perfected, you'll probably see a huge improvement in your animals and you'll wonder why you thought this was so hard. I call it the learning curve; it seems to take at least 3 years to get a handle on normal goat stuff and might take a few more years to really feel like you can handle it competently.

Speaking from someone who had 45, then 26 and now 12, it helps not to be so "in love" with the animals. Take a step back and try to be less emotional about them. Think about your goals for your herd and you life. Are they fitting in with your life? Would it work better if you had less? Are too many pets going to make it difficult to achieve the goals for your herd? I have one grandma goat that I will keep 'till she dies and that is it. Everyone else had better produce milk for me, or they will be sausage or sold on craigslist. (But I shouldn't really talk- Somehow I have 8 does out there instead of the 5 I'm supposed to have! Funny how I keep not seeing the three extra ones.... :crazy I just haven't figured out what to _do_ with them yet. )

But ultimately, it's our own desires that make what we do worth the time and money we invest in the goats. The fresh, pure milk and having warm goaty hugs in the winter is one big positive thing for me that keeps me going. I'm not sure if I really love the goats, but I sure do appreciate having them in my life. I know I'd feel a great big let down if I didn't have them. I'm really rambling tonight, but suffice it to say we have all been there and I think you are normal.

As normal as a person with goats can be, anyways, :biggrin !~ Jo


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, I guess we are the weird ones. :yeahthat We are still milking 5 (just dried up a yearling) and we go out and gloat over how much the yearlings have grown, how nice the 4 year old looks now that she isn't putting it all into the bucket, and we drool over their future kids. 

It is nice to dry them up one by one (and each is insulted when she finds she is no longer on the milk string) as it makes less work.... But the milk room is getting neater and cleaner all of the time, the hay is orderly, the kidding pens are being prepared.... (Especially for the Boers who may start in a week). We call this the "quiet time". LOL

Guess everyone is abby-normal in their own way, in the Goat world! :lol

Camille


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