# Nubian breeders: udder question



## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Just how hard is it to breed a Nubian with a show quality udder? The one doe I have who has a great udder, I bought as a fresh doe. The rest are improving as I work with them, but still are not where I'd like to see them. I'm using good bloodlines - way better than when I first started, and most of my current does don't even carry the lines of my first does. Then, I have this grade yearling who has several finished champion La Mancha and Saanen does in her pedigree. She's only 1/4 Nubian. I had high hopes for her, but now looking at her udder, she doesn't have the attachment Blossom (my Ch. La Mancha) has. She is a really milky doe, but I was really hoping for a higher rear udder. Experienced breeders - what are the odds of getting show udders in Nubians? I really love Nubies, but wonder if another breed wauld be easier to work with. Kathie


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep those who can't breed a good nubian.... get into Alpines  Or Saanens  Insert whatever breed the Nubian breeder jumped ship into 

I think it takes awhile to get the whole udder thing and how it is inhereited. When reading others pedigrees who you admire, look at their bucks a really good breeder is using (and believe me some outcrosses some folks do makes me wonder if they even know anything about goats  note who they are line and in breeding on. I think that is a real tell tale sign. Also who are they breeding that buck over?

But no you will never have the precentages of kept FF that someone with a swiss breed has. Shoot we had few crossbred to Lamancha...I will grant that the buck we used out of the Yazz herd, a chickory showman son, was spectacular, but we had really good udders in our dairy side of the barn milking his kids out of holy cr&p does of all breeds. I think it's easier to get a really nice Lamancha udder than anything else. Rear udders and good teat set in Nubians. Foreudder and good feet and legs in Alpines. All breeds have their own problems that as you breed them you find out....welcome to finding out about Nubian show udders 

Freshened 8 FF kept 2 myself, one is in another herd and will be a show doe, another will finish in her show circuit.

Make sure in your percentages of line and in breeding in your nubians that you are actually going forward into good udders that improve yours. How much inbred are your bucks to the does you are using? What buck are you condensing your gene pool into? Note how linebred Tim's animals are and even when looking at his "new' bucks they aren't that unrelated. Look at Sara's herd....Vicki


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## Little Moon (Dec 29, 2007)

Kathie,

I agree with Vicki - look at your bucks. Make sure to use a buck that will enhance the udder in his offspring - that is a better udder than the doe that you are using. Clear as mud??? I'm sure you know what I am trying to say.

Take a look at Sara's does. In her 2008 sales catalog (which she will email you) she has a line up of her does. These are all rear udder pictures, side by side. Proof that you can get a high rear udder on a Nubian doe, it just takes hard work and direction. You can start with a "lesser" quality doe and work from there - long time involved, since with each breeding it takes a year and a half to see if her udder is better than her mothers. Or get a higher quality/better bred doe and work from there. But regardless of how nice your doe is - you have you have got to have a really good buck - look at his daughters in milk and their mothers. Look at his mother - what kind of milker was she - that is the type of influence he will pass on to his daughters.

OK I am rambling. Good luck.

Anne


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

The main buck I used last fall is Gabriel. He's out of Lonesome Doe Obadiah (Birdy X GE) and Saada Winter Day. I bred him to Evette, my doe with the show quality udder and plan to keep the doeling, Evening Star. I'm wondering if I should ask Mary Lou if I can breed Evette to Obadiah next fall.
The other buck I used on my yearlings out of Gabriel was Rocky, their paternal half brother out of Evette's dam, Saada Jenuine Christmas Eve. I know line breeding is good, but I also dont want them to get too inbred. Any ideas on lines for a good buck to breed Rocky's daughters to? Kathie


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## Little Moon (Dec 29, 2007)

Kathie,

I don't know what all you have available, and how far you are willing/able to drive to have Evette bred. But I would find the best buck in your area. You go to shows and belong to your local goat club. Who has the does that are the champions at your shows? Breed your best doe(s) to their sire if at all possible. If it is Obediah, then you are already on the right track. If you can't breed to their sire - get one of their sons. The son out of the best breeding you can find.

My 2 cents,

Anne


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

He's out of Lonesome Doe Obadiah (Birdy X GE) and Saada Winter Day. 
...............................

Maybe we should move this to OT so folks can have real opinons without lurkers reading what we say.

So, is Winter Day a better doe than Birdy? How many Birdy daughters, or daughters of hers in my and Laura's herd are kept and used. What happened to the buck Laura kept out of her Birdy daughter? So in essense Obadiah, Red Eye the buck at Sherries and Big Bird, all Birdy GE sons are unproven, all have unkept daughters no sons, no daughters winning as 2 year olds, appraised? and yet you are now using a son out of Obadiah and this doe? Is that improving your doe Evette? Keeping bucklings out of unproved bucks is dumb...I don't mean as in you are stupid or anything like that I mean it's just dumb, they are fine for others to start their herds with, they are usually much cheaper, but to improve a nice herd? Only if very limitedly used, you keep a duaghter or two, freshen them yourself, and in many ways I didn't find out some things until we had a second freshening under that bucks belt.

What does Evette need improvement with? Short cannon bones, her shoulders aren't flat against her withers, general appearance, dairy character, rear udder width and heighth? Can Birdy's bloodline improve that? 

For my doelings out of Bab's a very similar breeding I woud not be using a Birdy son to keep a buckling out of. 

Can you look at the limited animals you know I have and see what direction with GE and now Nic I am going in with Shoofly? What bloodline made all the nice Sweet Expression daughters?

Look at Tim's girls, what is he linebred on? I think pedigree searching his bloodlines is very telling. Having known Tim for so long I have talked bloodline with him many times, but you verge on the edge of offending others when you talk about it openly because it's all opinoion and what we see in our herds, this isn't something Tim would do on open forums. 
Look at Sara's site what animals is she linebred on?
Look at Kastedemur, what bucks made them what they are and who does she always linebreed back into?
What bloodlines made Lynn Flemmings national champion and almost all of her champion does?
Megan Treadway?
and the list goes on.

If you are short sited to just say Kastedmur, you don't get it.



Vicki


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki: I wish you lived closer to me and could critique my does. With Evette, I'm not sure what could be improved on. She has a nice high and wide rear udder, and I've been told she's the "complete package" by Laura. What I see as her shortfall has more to do with her management prior to my buying her than genetics. She's smaller than my other three year olds, though she's not petite looking. She's actually a full bodied doe who carried and birthed healthy triplets. I suppose maybe the way to go for me would be to check with a longtime Nubian breeder who lives a couple hours from me and see if she has a buck she feels could work well with Evette's bloodlines. I know if I bought a buck from Laura, I'd make sure he was someone who she felt would improve my lines and not just a buck with their herd name.
As for Gabriel, he has improved on areas I needed with some of my older lines, at least what I can tell on some of the yearlings. I do know that when I replace him in my herd I want an even better buck - that just makes sense. Kathie


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

Darn Vicki...I don't know that I am ever going to fully understand all this...all I know is I sooo need HELP! That is a lot of info and I am still at a point where it is hard to see the smaller faults, and then to know how to fix them. yikes...

p


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Goat kid post a photo. Are the yearlings milking out of the buckling?

Paula you just got to go to shows, watch. Meet the breeders pet their goats and talk goats with them. As you pet you feel spring of rib etc.  If you ever get the opportunity to take a judges training do it. You can audit the class. I set in as a mom several times while my oldest took these classes, but I know most of what I know from my years of horses...conformation is conformation, just in goats it seems those 35 points for udder can hide some mighty awful conformation 

Start by never buying an outcross. If in looking at "Breeder's" goats you want a buck of hers, go with a line she has used, better is a rebreeding of a buck she has used. There is little sense in buying a buckling from her that has no genetics the same, and outcross. Let her keep that little outcross buck and see what it does in her herd. What doe in her herd does she keep daughters out of, maybe uses a son out of herself? That is how you bring a line into your herd. If you can only afford to purchase bucks out of their young stock than make sure she herself isn't an outcross also.

But do research because sometimes what you think is an outcross is in reality an attempt to bring in an old buckling who is linebred on the herd. Vicki


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Well here's my thinking on this... If you are trying to improve mammaries, use a buck whose pedigree has at least 3 generations of excellent mammaries on top and bottom side. The more linebred the better chance he has of passing on his traits. 

You are not likely going to improve udders from a buck whose dam had a mediocre mammary. Keep in mind though that the does you are breeding him to are lacking in excellent mammaries and they are contributing 1/2 of the genetics. 

A lot of people say, "Well I have a grandson of this "superbuck" (or doe)." Sorry but a grandson could be watered down enough that this "superbuck's" genetics is having little the desired effect on the offspring.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Excellent thread, Ive been reading it eagerly! Even tried to sneak online at work to check it out but then got busy  This is just fascinating stuff to me. Vickis taken the time before to explain how important it is to look at breeding on certain lines as a good start, for soemone like me just trying to build a herd. this is a good thread to see how to keep it going... 

I guess I'm sorta guilty of doing what Tim mentions, getting doelings that are grandaughters of the does I think are superb and what Id want to breed for. But they are from Vicki and Tim, and I think even though they are FF or close to it babies, I have a chance of ending up with some good does. I have an excellent buck to start with. He's also from a doe that embodies what I'd love to be able to produce some day. 

Once these babies freshen, I know to look at the package. But these arent early maturing lines, and I'll only be dealing with freshening two this spring, four the following. 

When you get to the point that you guys are at, I know you cull pretty heavy based on what the FF look like. Youve got the eye for it. Does it become worth it to keep them a second year to see what they look like later?

On the FF that look worth keeping, do you go back to the bucks line or the does line, or is there any particular "rule" you try to follow when choosing a new herdsire for the doelings you keep?


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## Blue Oak Ranch (Feb 25, 2008)

Yes, please don't move this thread - it's posts like these where beginners like me can learn so much. I'm trying to get better fore and rear udders on my Mini does. So glad I can read more about it. 

Cheers!

Katherine


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## Dawn (Mar 21, 2008)

OH yes this is GREAT!!! I'm learning SOOOOO MUCH!! Its hard... I know that I shouldn't keep some of my does/doelings/bucklings but I LOVE them! Thats my problem! I just got two milking does and one NICE buckling from Hills Acres!! And I'm REALLY HAPPY!
I'm trying to start over! Slowly but surely!


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

I have this link that I copied. It discusses linebreeding and inbreeding. I found it to be very interesting.

http://www.myotonicmeatgoats.com/Linebreeding.htm


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## Little Moon (Dec 29, 2007)

I second what Katherine said - please keep this here since OT is now harder to access. 

Kim, thank you for the link. I am headed there next.

Anne


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

You're welcome!


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> When you get to the point that you guys are at, I know you cull pretty heavy based on what the FF look like. Youve got the eye for it. Does it become worth it to keep them a second year to see what they look like later?


I view every buck and doe as temporary herd members until they earn a place in my herd at maturity. If she passes the test the first year as a yearling, you can bet she has very good to excellent general appearance. Then she also must continue to develop into my expectations as a first freshener. However, it is not until they mature that they actually earn a permanent place in my herd. A doe who does not continue to hold up finds herself in a new home. A lot of things can happen, accidents, sickness and disease (mastitis etc), weak pasterns, an udder that looses attachment and drops in the rear. Those who make it through the first year(s) must continue to develop to my expectations.



> On the FF that look worth keeping, do you go back to the bucks line or the does line, or is there any particular "rule" you try to follow when choosing a new herdsire for the doelings you keep?


By looking at the doe, you can sometimes tell which direction to go. You might want to breed a small doe to a relative who was large or then again you might want to improve breed character - so you go for a relative that will add that. Sometimes you experiment to see if you like a close breeding with a grand daughter back to a grandsire or a half brother to half sister mating. Other times, you look at the pedigree and realize it is time to try new blood. When you do, you try to find something that is linebred and that is reproducing the traits that you are looking to improve. No matter what you do, it is all guessing game and like the gambler's roll of the dice - you don't know if you are going to get snake eyes or the double six. However, with linebreeding quality animals, you are stacking the deck for better chance of winning.

Once you reach excellence, it is even a challenge to stay on top. I have known of many an excellent doe that never reproduced themselves but only produced mediocrity no matter who they were bred to.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

On the FF that look worth keeping, do you go back to the bucks line or the does line, or is there any particular "rule" you try to follow when choosing a new herdsire for the doelings you keep? 
..................

Laura the original poster has been at it awhile so some of what I wrote isn't about you of course. You have to start somewhere. And to answer the question above, you go back to the well. Because your does and your bucks should already be a linebreeding when you have been at it awhile. You don't want to start a herd with doelings from one line and a buck that is an outcross. You have Nic daughters, who is Nic out of? Why did I buy Nic, the answer is about 4 clicks away  Of course you want to linebreed back onto more of what Nic is...I wouldn't go to much more Full Service  but a son out of his dam bred into more quality does....like at Tims????  Ok enough. 

When I started over with my Saada brood does, that because of sellouts in my area grew to 6, it made no difference to me how they showed, they had excellent dairy character, excellent breed character, Body capacity and decent udders, 4 now have EX udders. But that was gravy...they were foundation, brood does. And that is how you should see the does you purchased. Appraising 90's and finishing their championships are gravy, but you are after their genes. Tighten the genes down to what you want to go after by using superior bucks.

Now bucks, follow Tim's advice..but your doe herd in the beginning must be bloodline. One day with luck you get to play with all 90+ does that are CH in your herd, then you can afford to outcross now and then to something that is popular at the time. Vicki


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm still trying to figure out how to post pictures off the disc I had made. I need to get a current picture of Evette and some of the other does. The yearlings out of Gabriel are fresh, except Gabriella, who is due this week. What I see Gabriel doing for these girls is improving the medial. This is a classic story of what Vicki was saying about problems with outcrossing. I bought a doe with a nice udder out of a local herd that does well at the shows. I bred her to a buck named Gandalf, who is out of Saada Jenuine Christmas Eve and a buck out of Killian and a doe named Crisca who had a top show udder. The kids I got out of this cross have good general appearance and do well in the show ring as kids. As adults, they do not have the udders I want. Some are pretty good, but don't have a good medial. Others have poor rear udders as well. They're not horrid as in pendulous, but more commercial dairy/family milkers than show goats. In breeding them to Gabriel, who is distantly related to Gandalf, I'm seeing improvement in udders. Evette is extremely linebred. Her dam is Christmas Eve, her sire is Gandalf's twin, Aragorne. My friend repeated the breeding this year and I'm hoping to get a doeling, who I think would be growthier under my management. I also have hopes for Evette's doeling out of Gabriel. I just sold kids off some of my does and tonite, as I was looking at udders filled to capacity, Some of the older gals aren't too bad and I'm getting a better idea who to keep and who to cull. Kathie


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## Jennie (May 7, 2008)

thank you to Tim and Vicki for sharing this info. I think I will have to read it a few times to take it all in. This is all different than what I was told when I fist got my goats, but so are a lot of things I was told. Whats hard is waiting that one to two yrs to see if it worked. Really makes you thing twice about holding does over to freshen as two yr olds.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

I freshend three red eye daughters this year and will be getting two of them appraised soon, all three had very simular and beautiful udders nice for udders, higher rears than dams, One got a horrid rump from the dams side (culled) one gives No milk in that pretty little udder (dams side, possibility of culling) You can't feed this one more or she founders, but she's so pretty and a mamas girl also I really want to breed her to freedom so she'll probaby stay another year, and the other is a definate improvent on dam udder. Can't wait for LA, but I wouldn't keep a son out of him, because they're is No tight enough inbreeding on what I'm adding. Good enough for doelings but not bucklings.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

very good information, thank you very much! It is really appreciated. A lot to think of for planning the coming year. I was definitely planning on some backcrossing, now i'm sure thats the way I should go. Ive essentially got three different excellent does and lines represented. I guess now I wait and see what breedings you all plan on for next year before I make my next move 

I thought this was a good article, it reinforces what Vicki and Tim have said. Explains a bit on how to put it on paper and use breeding charts to see crosses. I found that helpful in getting a more visual look at the concept. http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/issues/83/83-6/Alice_G_Hall.html


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If you can pick up Alice's old books, the one about Nubians and then the Disease and Management of goats with Bob Jackson, they are excellent. Old publications she used to print herself "Hall publishing", but well worth it. I am starting when I get a chance a sticky on this idea....magazines and books that we have read and think are worth the money.

And:

"No matter what kind of breeding program a person decides to follow, it is wise to remember that genes determine potentials of the offspring, but the environment determines how much of that potential is reached. A kid could be bred for outstanding stature and production, but if his environment doesn't support him properly, his genetic potential will never be reached."

Is of course the only secret bullet... Vicki


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki is right folks! Management plays a huge part in this - a lot more than you think. All the genetics in world will do you little good without excellent management. Keeping your numbers to where goats are still fun is also important and will help you to avoid burnout. Make room for superior animals by moving out mediocrity. This is management too, you know.


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