# Showing Info in Layman's Terms Please?



## lorit (May 10, 2010)

So, I just started some showing and don't really understand all the progressions and terms involved. 

I am starting to "get" that each ring stands on it's own. 

What are "legs" - wins? Does the type of show make a difference - for example a win at Nationals "weigh" more than a win at your local show?

What does it take for a doe to earn that "CH" in front of her name? And then the "GCH"?

I know the ADGA book has all this stuff in there but I need simple layman's terms - weeding thru all the rules is confusing and time consuming. 

TIA


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

To earn a leg a doe must be chosen Grand Champion. BUT, there have to be a minimum of 10 does in their category (either Senior doe or Junior doe) for the leg to "count". Most folks will say that the breed has "sanctioned" once there are a minimum of 10 does in that category.

To be all technical, the term Sanctioned actually means that the Show chair has declared that breed as an official breed and paid ADGA the money for that class (and then ADGA sends all the necessary ribbons). Then the term "official" is used. Potat-O Potat-A it all means the same unless you are tired and crabby and want to start an argument on the internet (seriously, folks?!) LOL

It takes 3 champion wins to get CH in front of a does' name. One leg (the dry or restricted leg) can come from a Jr. win. But only one.

If a doe has earned her milk star, then she can have a GCH in front of her name. If she has been designated Superior Genetics and is also a GCH, then she gets SGCH. There are goats with SG (for Superior Genetics) in front of their names that have not finished their championship for one reason or another.

Nationals win - no more weight but a lot of Prestige. And I mean a LOT of PRESTIGE! 

At a show, if there are more than 20 does in the milker category, then the doe who is chosen Reserve Grand Champion at the show wins I believe a restricted leg. So if in theory a doe went to Nationals and was Reserve National Champion, but still had not attained her permanent championship (CH designation) then she would get a leg. I don't believe that a reserve Jr. gets a leg even when there are more than 20 (our doe did not when we took both Grand and Reserve with 22 Jr. Saanens being shown - or maybe we did and no one told us?).

Someone else will have to clarify that one!

Feel free to add - I have no doubt I left a bunch of stuff out, but these are the basics.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

The doe who earns the restricted leg by getting reserve, does she only get to have 1 of those, or will she get to be CH if she has 3 of them? If that same doe had already had her dry leg, does she still get the reserve restricted leg, or can you only get one period?

Do finished goats (those with CH in front of their name) put in the champion challenge class count towards being "official" at a show? If a goat is in a breed that had been sanctioned, but didn't have enough show up to be official were to get Best In Show, would they still earn a leg?

There are no rules in ADGA against people putting finished champions in the regular classes rather than cc, which is pretty much a bummer for everyone else who shows up to that show...(Okay, so I would probably do that at a fair, for the premiums, but not at a regular show, where you don't get anything but legs, and maybe prizes!).


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

So that brings up a question. I've got the doeling who just got a grand as a junior. As far as I know the show sanctioned so she now has her one dry leg? Any reason to keep showing her at all? For myself it would be to see how she stacks up against different does - not every show is the same set of goats. But is that "fair" to the other exhibitors?

This past weekend, a yearling doe got grand in the first ring so her breeder pulled her out of the 2nd ring where we got grand. I certainly benefited from that. And would likely do that in a similar situation. But going to a different show at another date/location - is it kosher to show her again?

I recently bought a FF 2yr old who got a dry leg last year as a yearling. If I get her to a show this summer as a milking doe and then another show next summer she could be "finished" and have her CH? What about shows where there are miltiple rings, like NEWDGA coming up - if I took her to that and she won in one ring, that would be leg #2? Taking the fairness issue into account would it be best to go for that third leg at the same show or wait til another show?

And what is the champion challenge and why do folks do it?  If you've already got the CH, what are you going for?


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

A goat can only use one restricted leg toward permanent championship. One other way a doe can get a restricted leg is if the doe that she went reserve to was already finished. Goats in the champion challenge class do not count toward the 10 needed for sanction. This is why, in a small show, a finished champion may be shown in the regular class. Goats are shown in champion challenge to try and earn best of breed and best doe in show. In a money ring, that can be a decent premium. Many breeders who show at different fairs throughout the summer will show a doeling who earned a dry leg in order to try and make money at the shows. One of the big reasons they may withdraw a junior doe who went GCH in the first ring is to try and get a leg on another one of their kids. If a goat wins best of breed in her class and there are not enough goats to sanction that breed, she can still earn a leg if she goes best doe in show, which means she beat the does of every breed entered in the show. If you are in a two or three ring show and your senior doe wins, it is just fine to show her in the other two rings and try to finish her. One thing to remember is that each judge has his/her own opinion of the animals shown. I've seen goats who go GCH under one judge place second or third under another judge in a two ring show. Lots of times the animals are all really nice and are a challenge for the judges.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

And I had a doe at Syringa who was GCH and BOB over 4 champion challengers one of the rings, reserve in another, 1st in her class in another, and last in her class in one (out of I think 6 or 7). LOL. I would keep showing a doe at a show, that was not finished yet and went grand in a ring. If I knew for sure that the Ch counted for a leg to earn her last leg, and that I wasn't going to ruin the sanction for the others at the show, then I would scratch her. It is possible to finish a doe at one show, if there are at least 3 rings. It is possible to finish a doe, AND get a leg on another doe, at the Syringa show I just mentioned, because the ADGA show is 4 rings.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

So show your Junior if you want to "prove" your herd. Personally, I would leave her home and let her grow up with no risks to health (and I don't mean disease, I mean goats get stressed and do come home sick from shows). Show her at a more local show or fair later in the year.

Senior does - by all means continue to show them at a 2 or 3 or 4 ring show. If they can earn all of their legs at one outing, with different judges, not only is that impressive, but sure is efficient! No one else knows your does status (how many legs she has) and you need to do what you need to do. However, if she has 3 legs (with only one restricted leg) then if you appreciate other exhibitors who "play nice" and excuse a doe who can't get anymore legs, then be prepared to do the same. Folks have some pretty long memories for stuff like that. Just sayin'. (Now, if you really really wanted to show a particular doe under a particular judge, then once again, you paid the entry fees so you should get to show.) Even a Jr that wins at say a 3 ring show but you thought she had a shot at BJDIS, you may choose to show again.

Don't forget - the kid standing behind her, just may be your own.  

Lots of discussion on the chat groups and Facebook right now....


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

Thanx Camille,

I will probably take your advice and leave her home - for those exact reasons. My daughter will be bummed - she is very taken with that particular doeling - but she can work with another. With regards to any seniors shown I agree that I would treat folks the way I would want to be treated. 

BOB and BDIS - other than bragging rights, what's the benefit with regards to your doe's actual status? Not minimizing bragging rights - I wouldn't mind at all winning either of those. Help me understand - a doe gets a grand champion at a show. Then as a different "round" all the previous champions come together with the current show winner and that determines the BOB? Then BDIS is when the winner (BOB) from each breed are in the ring together and a winner is chosen for the day? For each ring only or for ALL rings combined?

restricted legs - same as junior? or are there circumstances in which a senior doe earns a restricted? but regardless of how it is earned to be a finished CH, a doe must earn two "regular" legs and one restricted. Can a doe earn three regular if never shown as a junior?

How does one keep track of all this?  especially if you have multiple goats and are showing alot. 
Confusing . . .


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Each ring only. Who would judge if all the best from every ring got together?  Just think of each ring as it's own show.

Yes a doe can earn 3 milking legs, having never earned a leg as a Jr. and get finished. Some people don't even show Jr's. Camille pointed out before that a Sr. doe can get a restricted leg if she goes reserve and there is 20 other does at the show, and Kathie said it can also happen if the doe that went grand was already finished. I am curious, what if a doe finished (it was her 3rd leg) in the ring that your doe was reserve in, does she also get a restricted leg? What if she finished before that, but hadn't got the paperwork for it yet, does the reserve get a leg then?

There is actually a subscription service for ADGA where you can see what shows your goats have won, and I think it tells if they got a leg or not. I put all my show wins on my website, and now I have just started putting which ones have legs and how many, to keep track.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

> How does one keep track of all this?  especially if you have multiple goats and are showing alot.
> Confusing . . .
> ___


You assign the job to your daughter, that's how! Either during the show or on the way home, write it up in a notebook, including any pertinent comments from the judge - including those does who placed 4th or 5th in a class... Make a note if you liked a judge or not - 
some judges can be pretty inconsistent or just make no sense to you - note your placings but don't put too much credence on what they
said or placed. And remember - Juniors need to grow up to be nice Seniors or they never finish (another reason for letting that doe stay
home - However I could argue that your daughter's joy trumps "convention", but you can also use it as a learning moment, and she can strategize, like the big kids do.
Getting to show her against other competition and with a variety of judges is also a reason to bring her. And hey, at this show, no one
will know she has a leg already unless you tell them  Except of course you already told all of us and posted pictures, LOL.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

In MDGA, they have a class for Jr. Champion Challenge, which is unique and I like it. That way, you can show your kids that already have legs under different judges or at different shows to get more info on them, and then you are not taking a leg from anyone else (including your own goats). I think it is an interesting concept!


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

How does the AOP class play into this - with regards to earning legs?


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

If the "breed" is official, then the AOP champion will be rewarded a leg for the breed it belongs to. So, for example, if the AOP division in a show consists of 10 or more Toggs, Sables and Oberhasli, and the Togg was named Grand, she will get credit towards her permanent championship.

Something to keep in mind when showing in one ring at a show and not in another, please be sure that you don't leave the breed shortchanged by pulling your goat. If there are only 10 animals in the breed and you pull yours out of the second ring because she won a leg in the first ring, the breed will no longer be official since there will now only be 9 animals showing. This isn't doing anyone a favor since the goat who is the champion in that non-official ring will not be granted a leg for that win.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Instead (adding to the above post), milk her out and then show her.


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