# Is this Bottlejaw and is this the right course of treatment?



## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Does this look like bottlejaw to you? These are goats I sold to our friends about 3 months ago. Two of the adults have the swelling.

Is this the right course of treatment:
Ivomec Plus injectable 1cc/100 lbs repeat 3X every 10 days
Sounds like Cydectin is better, what is the goat dosage?

Iron Dextran-100: 1cc/animal IM every day for 5 days
Vitamin B Complex: 5cc/animal IM or SQ 7 days
Pen-G: 10cc/animal for 10 days?

Should they give Probiotics? Should they give antibiotics?

The adults were all copper bolused in December and are due next month, should they copper bolus now?

Is there anything else they should do?

We don't have a microscope, should they pay the vet to run a fecal or just proceed with treatment? Assuming we are correct in thinking it is bottlejaw from worms will the fecal tell us anything?

The night before last one of the does started showing the swelling. We talked about it and assumed she got stung by a bee. I went over to look last night when they said another doe had it as well and it's definitely not a bee sting.

I sold them the three adults about 3 or 4 months ago, one was pregnant and kidded 4-6-13 and is a second freshener. She is the dark doe with swelling. The other two are yearlings and were not bred. What do we do about the kid? Should we give her the same meds as above? If so what doses?

I've never wormed our goats, in fact I was reading up on how to do it last week because I need to start. I'm not sure why they would get it as they feed the same hay and grain. Which is quality alfalfa and 4-way (we are going to switch to a better grain, just looking into it now). The only thing I can think of is they said they think the area they set up their goat pen/pasture in was used for animals about 10 years ago. Maybe there were spores (or whatever they are called) in the soil and they picked them up from there. Either that or our goats are going to get it tomorrow.

Other than the swelling the does are acting normally. No diarrhea.

Thanks for any and all advice.


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Sorry, I forgot the pictures.


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## still (Apr 20, 2013)

The dose for Cydectin is 1cc/20lbs and that's oral. I think the dose for Ivomec is 1cc/33lbs? and that is injected SQ. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. If your goat has bottle jaw I would also give Nutri-Drench or Red Cell as well.

That is strange looking swelling though. I've seen bottle jaw once on my goats and don't remember it looking exactly like that but it was a while ago. Maybe someone will chime in with more recent experience.

Are the swellings soft? Hot? Hard?


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks Still,

I didn't actually go in a check them that closely. I'll be going over there later today I think and I will check them out a little better.


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## still (Apr 20, 2013)

I just confirmed that is bottlejaw. The best thing for the owner to do is to get a fecal done by a vet to see which worms they are dealing with. Once bottlejaw shows up you've got to treat them pretty quickly because that means the load is heavy. The move probably gave the worms a foothold since stress can trigger that. The Ivomec plus injectable method is probably the best option right now. When you give an oral dewormer the worms let go all at once and the goat can bleed out. If it were me I would contact a vet first, get the fecal done, and go with their recommendation. Good luck.

I would also give probiotics and Vitamin B complex. The dose for the Fortified B complex is 4cc/100lbs injected IM every 12 hours....hopefully since the girls are still "acting" ok that all that will need to be done is the deworming. Just don't wait-they need to be dewormed now.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Bottle jaw is caused by blood fluids that build up due to a bad case of anemia from blood sucking worms. It is not usual;ly something that comes on quickly, they probably had a worm load when they left your farm and it continued at the new place. Stress, kidding, growing, spring weather all let the worms grow and multiply, sucking the blood from the host goats.

Fecal and deworm, fecal, then deworm again. I use injectable iron if one of my goats get anemic. Fecal your herd as well.


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

She talked to the vet last night and he called me this morning and she called a different vet today as well. She's on the way to the feed store to get injectable Ivomec plus, red cell (no one has injectable iron), and dex. The second vet, who tried to convince her it must have been snake bites, suggested the steroid for the swelling. We'll start with those and then see about getting a fecal done.


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## still (Apr 20, 2013)

Junkscouts said:


> She talked to the vet last night and he called me this morning and she called a different vet today as well. She's on the way to the feed store to get injectable Ivomec plus, red cell (no one has injectable iron), and dex. The second vet, who tried to convince her it must have been snake bites, suggested the steroid for the swelling.


The steroid is good in case they go off feed but if they are eating/drinking ok then it isn't needed yet. She could always get it and keep it on hand. Try to have her get probiotics too. That is always nice to have. They should have that at the feed store; most of them do. Yay! Ya'll are being good goat parents!


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks, I texted her and she is going to get some Probios as well.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Don't expect a quick turnaround. This is extreme by the time they are anemic enough to get bottle jaw.
There will be a quite extended recovery. You will have to worm 3x10....three times - once every ten days.
You will only kill adults with the first worming - you will have other life stages as well as eggs left. So your other stages will mature and begin feeding and need to be killed out in 10 days and then the eggs will hatch and need to be killed in the 3rd worming.
DO NOT expect one dose of wormer to fix this.

I would be using cydectin at this last worming in case they have been incorrectly wormed with ivermectin before and so have resistance.
You are going to have to be taking fecals regularly if they have no resistance and get totally infested like this.

Now let me caution you on another thing as well. You might want to test for Johnnes because THE most overlooked symptom of it is bottle jaw before there is any loss of weight and any other symptom. I would send off a fecal sample to U of W that is a combo herd wide sample.
http://www.johnes.org/testserv/index.html









 "Bottle jaw", also called submandibular edema, is a sign very typical of Johne's disease. The cause of bottle jaw is a lack of protein in the serum, particularly albumin, due to the decreased function of the intestine. Johne's disease is a protein-losing enteropathy.

Lee


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Would everyone in this thread please fill in your personal information- 
location - type of goats etc. Thank you.
We cannot properly answer questions without knowing where you are and what kind of animals you have.
Thanks
Lee


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## still (Apr 20, 2013)

buckrun said:


> Would everyone in this thread please fill in your personal information-
> location - type of goats etc. Thank you.
> We cannot properly answer questions without knowing where you are and what kind of animals you have.
> Thanks
> Lee


I guess you would be talking about me...ooopppssss! I fixed it. I didn't know I was supposed to do that but thanks for pointing me out in front of everyone.:blush


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

It is no big deal- we always 'point it out in front of everyone'.
Thank you for tending to it. Certainly nothing to be embarrassed about.
It's about the goats


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## still (Apr 20, 2013)

buckrun said:


> It is no big deal- we always 'point it out in front of everyone'.
> Thank you for tending to it. Certainly nothing to be embarrassed about.
> It's about the goats


LOL!! I have been told like 3 times today. I didn't even know how to do it until I started fiddling with the site. But now I'm getting the hang of it:biggrin

I like your avatar pick by the way!


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

I just went out and 3 of our 2 month old kids have it, they were fine at 8 am this morning. One can't open its eyes, 2 of them have bloddy noses and are having trouble breathing. I've left a message for our vet but he usually takes an hour or so to call back. Please can someone tell me what to do to get the swelling down? We have dex, banamine, ivomec plus, red cell and probios, and LA100. 

I'm going over to our friends to help her inject her goats and I'll bring the meds back with me. I'll check here when I get back but if anyone want's to give me a call instead that would be fine with me. My number is 760-468-2296.

What can we give 2 month old kids and are the dosages the same? Thanks.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Perhaps you have some poisonous plant issue and not bottle jaw.
Never heard of these symptoms- just a pouchy watery swelling below the jaw.
You have an incorrect diagnosis methinks.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Blister Beetles?


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## still (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm beginning to wonder the same thing? Perhaps it is something different going on? The deworming wont hurt so I would do that anyway but that is a little strange......hmmmmm


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Yes, it looks like toxicity. Our vet thought so as well. No sign of blister beetles, but maybe a weed bailed in the hay.

Sadly we've lost 2 of the 3 so far.

When I got back at 5 one of the kids was dead and one of the other ones had her eyes swollen shut and was starting to have trouble breathing. We gave the two that were left 2 mg each powdered dex, 2cc of red cell and half an ounce of karos syrup (vet suggested it). Over the next hour or so the one just got worse and worse until her airway was occluded. We also gave her 2cc of Benadryl at about 5:45. I tried "CPR" (held her mouth closed and blew in her nostrils) and we even tried putting a tube down past the swelling after she stopped breathing all together, but there was nothing we could do.

I just gave (7 pm) the last one another 2 mg of dex with 5cc of childrens Benadryl and just a little syrup. His swelling is definitely worse than at 5, last time I dosed him. Our vet said you can't kill him with dex and to just give the whole damn packet if he isn't improving (wish I had some injectable) but I don't want to give too much.

What do you all think? Anything else we should try? I'm worried he is just going to get worse until he can't breath either.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Benadryl and steroid is all I know to do for an allergic reaction. If you think there is a toxin invested maybe activated charcoal could sop it up?

For future reference with bottle jaw you are going to see very pale, even white eyelids. Bottle jaw is worse in the evening cause as the animal grazes, the blood pools. It will look better in the morning. Your photo didn't look like bottle jaw to me. Also I had multiple bad cases of worms, but it wasn't my experience that they all got bottle jaw from it. Some will get bottle jaw; others will just die.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Yikes! I'd get those dead bodies off to the vet asap to get necropsy done!


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

I went out at 7:30 after giving the 2nd dose of 2 mg and he looked worse, so I gave him another 5 mg like the vet suggested. It's now more than 2 hours later and he doesn't appear to be any worse, or at least not much worse, the other two progressed much quicker. I've got my fingers crossed, but I'm not too optimistic. I was going to take him to his (and my) first show tomorrow, now I just hope he survives. He's still very swollen but no bloody nose and his eyes are still almost fully open. He ate dinner (got hay from a different feed store) and he seems alert and relatively comfortable.

We put the 2nd doe that died in the walk-in and we may take her up the San Bernardino on Monday to see if they can tell us what it was. The first one was probably out side too long. Our vet said a necropsy would cost $250, but we'd like to know what it was.

Thanks again for everyone's help. I'll keep updating as we go.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

If you can save others in your herd from getting it, saving just one other, will justify the cost of the necropsy.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

So sorry this is happening, Sven. Yes, get a necropsy. As Nancy said, it will be worth it. Also, have them do a nutritional analysis of the liver. Has nothing to do with cause of death, but it will help you to know if you management is working, ie. feed, minerals, etc.


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## Junkscouts (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks.

I don't have much time to write, but he made it through the night and the swelling is down slightly, maybe 10% better, but it's something. I'll write more this afternoon.


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