# hay, long fibers, nutrition



## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Hey all, or Hay all, heheheee

I tried searching on here and lots of semi-relevant links but not with with focus that's on my mind today. I could try to piece info together, but I thought someone else might also benefit from focused discussion.

We had our first big fall rainstorm here, I don't have enough hay storage space and am tired of running out for expensive hay "what's available" roulette when I need it. 

Reminder, I'm in urban setting, space is at a premium here, no "pasture" although we help with local weeds and I do &teach pruning and bring home a lot of browse. But that's down to a few species in winter, mostly ivy, conifer trees (Fir, cedars, pines), Photinia, Acuba, some bamboo, blackberries in all but coldest winter, & smaller amounts of winter veggies like kale.

Plus, hay and feed prices have gone up for all of us I think this year. Got me thinking about waste and feed efficiencies...

I hear a bunch about goats needing "long fibers" in hay, but that doesn't really make sense to me as it gets into tiny bits in cud pretty fast.

Some other folks rave about feeding only alfalfa and/or timothy pellets, no hay, no mess, great condition of goats. Sure, its expensive, but so is hay storage in my urban setting, so pellets have great appeal right now from "no waste, no mess" point of view, but... Doesn't hay digestion generate heat in winter? Wouldn't they get bored without hay to take their time and make their mess with? :lol


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Vicki mentioned awhile back that the long stem thing was silly because the contents of the rumen look about like what soaked alfalfa pellets look. Since then I have greatly dialed back hay and focused on alfalfa pellets and soaked beet pulp. The soaked beet pulp helps fill them up and really stretches the bag. We have pitiful hay, and I give it as an activity. It is early in the experiment, but so far I am very happy.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

As I understand the long fiber argument- which has lots of studies behind it in the cow dairy industry-it once again devolves to healthy rumen. The longer fibers require more cudding and so they are expelling more gas and mixing the material more thoroughly with saliva each time they cud which buffers ph. The actual physical chewing up of the longer fibers just to get them down gets saliva mixed in and again buffers.
Macerated materials in pellets are only lightly cudded and so you can note a decrease in rumen capacity as well as increased incidence of SARA.
Another issue is that there is no way to feed gobble guts pellets all day long. They will be hugely over fed if they stood at a pellet feeder the length of time they normally spend eating hay and so say you feed 6 pounds a day in a divided feeding. What are they going to do the rest of the day? They won't cud overly much with chopped fibers and they won't be actively eating. I don't think a ruminant ever wants to be doing nothing about food. Their system is based on processing pretty well nonstop. I have been at the barn in the wee hours for deliveries and the does are resting but they are still chewing and do so periodically thru the night hours. I am not sure limiting rumen activity is good in cold weather. There are lots of great articles and studies about this. Lots of dairy folk just take tractor scoops of ground stuff and pile it in a row for them to eat. Of course the longevity of the modern dairy cow is about 3 years so....uh-doesn't sound that great to me....I know Marion can speak up on this topic too as she is more educated on modern feeding programs.
Lee
L


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I once had a man come to buy a couple of milking does and he had been the herd manager for a very large (over 1000 goats) dairy. He could not stop commenting on the fact that our goats while standing around listening us talk would cud up two huge cheeks full like the size of your fist on both sides and chew it down. He was amazed. He said he never saw that kind of cudding in the dairy. They fill both cheeks and do look rather funny but it is because they are eating rough shrubs with large tough leaves and twigs and branch tips as well as grass. And this year with the drought whole trees that Don is cutting for them.
I think cudding roughage is vital to whole health.
Lee


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

As usual, Lee, your info is very helpful!
What is SARA?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Sub Acute Ruminal Acidosis.
Great articles on it but mostly done with cattle.
Lee


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I wish Pav would chime in on this - he is so knowledgeable and I know he could really tell it like it is!
Calling PAV! :hello DGI to Pav...Sign in Pav... :help

L


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

He's too busy cutting the cheeese


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

buckrun said:


> As I understand the long fiber argument- which has lots of studies behind it in the cow dairy industry-it once again devolves to healthy rumen. .......... Lots of dairy folk just take tractor scoops of ground stuff and pile it in a row for them to eat. Of course the longevity of the modern dairy cow is about 3 years so....uh-doesn't sound that great to me....I know Marion can speak up on this topic too as she is more educated on modern feeding programs.
> Lee
> L


 :biggrin Haha,Lee, I love how you describe a TMR (Total Mixed Ration) as 'scoops of ground stuff'. I'm picking up the glove here: there's actually quite a bit of science and fine tuning behind that scoop and, you know what?, we totally agree on this subject! Ruminants do need long fiber. The kicker is in the details: how long is long enough? Whoever actually grounds the stuff in that scoop, will run into huge trouble with acidosis, acute or otherwise. Cows are like goats in that they are both ruminants and need fiber to keep their digestive systems healthy and working. They are roughage processing machines that make extremely valubale nutrition for humans (namely milk and meat) out of stuff humans can't digest, because some of us may be vegetarians, vegans, and what-nots, but we will never be as good at digesting roughage as ruminants are. 
Anyway, back to that TMR. Mixing all products (grain, minerals, protein sources and forages) is very convenient on large dairy farms, since it assures all animals get all nutrients without being able to sort stuff out, but it is crucial the the hay, corn silage and haylage in the mix does not get chopped too short. Optimal length of corn silage is approx. 18mm (3/4 of an inch), for haylage it's 22mm (about an inch), while alfalfa hay gets mixed in as a long product and if mixed well does not get chopped any shorter than about 3 inches.

Funny, my husband, a feeder of cows for all of his life and picky as can be when it comes to cows' nutrition, just walked in and asked me what I was writing and when I mentioned it was suggested that dairies chop all forages too short, he shook his head and mumbled, 'do these people know that cows are ruminants?'.

So there it is, we agree, forages are crucial for ruminants and that's why I understand the use of alfalfa pellets in an area where hay is just not available, but I would never use them if I had any other choices. I'm pretty sure that those who do depend on alf. pellets and are successful anyway, very likely provide other sources of roughage or browse to their animals.

Happy feeding all!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Oh and on the 3 yr old cow average: that does happen on some dairies, but not on the ones that do things right. The large dairy where my husband works has an average age for their cows of around 5 years, and on our own smaller dairy we were looking more at 6-7 years old, with peaks like or beloved 'grandma', who still, though somewhat slower than the young ladies around her, made her way to the parlor three times a day, while being petted by whoever was getting 'group 3', at the wise old age of 13+.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

It makes sense. Even with my goats loading up on pellets and soaked beet pulp, they still devour all hay put out and still pick what browse they can find. I do think you can use clean but low nutritional hay for the roughage and pellets for the nutrition.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Yikes, so much discussion already. There are so many issues here to cover. My take:

You can't compare cow issues and goat issues as they relate to digestion. The difference in size makes for different physical dynamics. Here are the related issues

Issue #1: microbial entrapment and length of fermentation 
Before particles exit the rumen, they have to be tiny. They have to be something like 1 mm. The way this happens is that larger and heavier particles usually go to the bottom. When hay is eaten, it forms a mat on the rumen, and that helps to stimulate rumination. Imagine having food of 5-8 different sizes and weights. If you put that all together on top of each other, it's really tough to turn it over. Think about concrete mixer, compost turning, stirrer in a lab, etc. Simply put, more contact increases exchange... lets new food become available to bacteria, attached bacteria instead of having them all hang out in one place, equalizes temp and ph, mixes in new saliva, etc. here's the kicker though: this applies mostly where there are differences in relative density, and when the differences are huge. Say, there's been a ton of grain, a ton of twigs, and pellets, but no hay. Not good. Instead of cudding up a ball where all of these are trapped, it might be stuck together because there are no long fibers for the mat.

Long fibers also act as a way to regulate length of fermentation in the vat. If they're too long or too short, they might not be passed through at the rate that ensures optimum nutrient extraction. Generally, it does tend to work itself out.

Issue #2: pH buffer, chewing
This is a real issue, but not a drastic one for us. It's a real issue because saliva production is crucial. It's not a real issue, because I assume everyone here feeds a decent diet, and there are no issues of clinical or subclinical acidosis. In cows, this is a huge deal because of volume. If a cow eats 10 lbs of grain, you have to buffer all that acid somehow. A goat is smaller, and will not be fed 10 lbs of grain. So this is sort of a nonissue with proper management for us. The actual amount for extreme cudding vs TMR is rather high with corn (50% reduction, for example), but not so different when there's assorted food.

Issue #3: Milk fat
In all ruminants, the size and amount of fat depends on acetate (precursor to fat), and the acetate/propionate balance. To make a long complicated situation short, you need fiber. But, you don't necessarily need short or long fiber. You need fiber that works with the rumen size and stays there long enough to balance the production of propionate. The way it is related to length is in cudding. More cudding = more saliva. And more cellulose with long fibers means the growth of bacteria that eat cellulose continues and might increase. But again, for goats, this is not a huge issue. The rumen isn't so big that it makes a tremendous difference.

Issue #4: digestion rate
I mentioned this before earlier in the whole issue around length of time food spends in rumen, and buffering, but this is worthwhile to call out specifically. The rate of digestion must be balanced between fiber, protein, and sugars. And they play off each other. Different pH (related to cudding), and the rate of digestion and rate of bacterial growth changes. With bacteria favoring one or another type of population, the fermentation is not balanced, and pH shifts, and absorption rates shift.

there are some other things to consider, but no time.

Overall:
- You can't use cow studies for goats, doesn't always work
- Goats are more forgiving WRT fiber length, provider food is balanced
- TMR must be accounted for especially, with figuring out fiber quantity and size. Same for mixed feed because of possible acidosis issues.
- You don't need "roughage" and "nutrition" per se, but you do need to balance the ration for protein, fiber, and carbs (and fat). If it is, and if digestion works the way it's supposed to, you can get away with moderate saliva production, and pellets. Most of the time, easier to feed a well balanced size and quality because goats differ in their nutritional needs among each other.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

What *is* balanced ration for protein, fiber, carbs and fat? And what impact does water content of various feedstuffs have? I would presume grass acts differently in the rumen than hay and soaked beet pulp from dehydrated...


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

As published by NRC, nutritional requirements of ruminants

Water is adjusted for in calculations to standardize.

No, grass fibers and dried hay acts about the same. Beet pulp is different.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Nobody can answer the first part of the question....is it a growing kid, is it a heavy milker, is it a pet goat, is it a dry doe, is it a buck breeding 5 goats a year or a buck breeding 100? Each class of livestock has their own energy, fat, protein needs. Further, some like does with more weight to them, others don't mind their milkers being lean. You can push those numbers for more milk, and as can be seen on the forum there are a thousands ways to get to those numbers.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Angie,

Water content (moisture) makes a huge difference, that's why rations are always based on DM (dry matter). Any animal, based on it's size, maturity and type, can only take in so much volume of feed, so if a goat would be offered 'free choice' grazing in spring and nothing else, she would be filling up on more water than anything else, and may very well be unable to eat enough of the nutrients she needs. You balance the total ration on nutrients in the dry matter, so, simply put, if a doe needs 3 lbs DM of hay that has 85% DM in order to get enough nutrients, she actually needs to eat 3/0.85=3.53 lbs of that hay. Now if she gets fresh alfalfa/grass with 25% DM, she actually needs to wolf down a whopping 3/0.25=12 lbs of that product. A high producing doe will need to get her nutrients in a pretty concentrated (dry) form in order to be able to eat what she needs. That's where the added grain comes in for high(er_ producers.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Trysta said:


> Angie,
> 
> Water content (moisture) makes a huge difference, that's why rations are always based on DM (dry matter). Any animal, based on it's size, maturity and type, can only take in so much volume of feed, so if a goat would be offered 'free choice' grazing in spring and nothing else, she would be filling up on more water than anything else, and may very well be unable to eat enough of the nutrients she needs. You balance the total ration on nutrients in the dry matter, so, simply put, if a doe needs 3 lbs DM of hay that has 85% DM in order to get enough nutrients, she actually needs to eat 3/0.85=3.53 lbs of that hay. Now if she gets fresh alfalfa/grass with 25% DM, she actually needs to wolf down a whopping 3/0.25=12 lbs of that product. A high producing doe will need to get her nutrients in a pretty concentrated (dry) form in order to be able to eat what she needs. That's where the added grain comes in for high(er_ producers.


Not that my does would MIND wolfing down 12 lbs of fresh alfalfa...  Great discussion folks!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

No, they probably wouldn't! Problem is, to get what they need, they'd probably need even more than 12 lbs, and in this example with the fresh alfalfa, they would actually get too much of one nutrient (here it would be N/protein, even up to toxic levels) while trying to get enough of another. So that's where we people come in. Since we don't/can't let them browse like nature intended, we have to think carefully what combination of feedstuffs we offer them and definitely do some serious thinking, if not 'real math', to make sure they get the balanced ration they need. As someone else mentioned above: thank goodness there are many ways to do it right. We all have different feeds/forages available in our areas and most of us manage quite well. Plus: if we don't, our does will surely tell us by getting sick, or not producing well. A big percentage of our goat-trouble lies in sub-ideal feeding. I'm still learning as I go.

Oh, and I agree that cow-research doesn't always apply to goats, but it would be unwise to disregard all of it. Both are ruminants, so some of it is relevant, you just have to keep putting it in perspective. I personally struggle tremendously with how ridiculously little research is actually available on goats. I guess since cows are more 'big business' it's been more interesting for government and companies to do research on them, but I sure wish we'd get some more true goat trials going. Need the info every day!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I have milk records that show water content makes a difference in production for sure.
We always plant winter forage and one year there was just no rain and so we could not sprout it.
My does were on good hay- tested 18% protein and all the normal stuff. Their milk was off from the years they were on our lush green planted forage by huge amounts which I am sure was never near 18% altho I have no tests for that. I remember having to juggle milk customers the difference in output was so great. I just assumed it was more difficult to take in enough water to have more than a gallon extra to put into milk each day.

Most of the goat studies are in very expensive text books or on membership research websites. There are tons of good links at Maryland Small Ruminant site that boil down what studies there are.
I think it comes up under www.sheepandgoat.com Click on General Links and then on Goats but browse the entire site- packed with info including University links.

Lee


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I don't have the extensive records like you Lee, but anecdotally, my grade Nubian doe has always done dramatically better milk-wise on grass. I recently discovered soaked beet pulp had the same effect.

I don't mean to over simplify, but it still sounds to me like they need nutrition - carbs, proteins, fats, vitamins and minerals, and roughage AKA fiber. I think most have a pretty good grip on the nutritional needs, and the question in my mind is how much fiber is required to keep things operating smoothly? Soaked beet pulp would be in an in between category I would guess as the strands are larger than the mush in a hay pellet.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Enjoying this discussion but wanted to add a point missing.
I can't see congratulating ourselves on these science based methods for so called 'optimum' feeding used to produce copious amts of dairy products when the average hambuger in the USA is made of a 4year old dairy cow.
I find that wasteful and indeed- obscene- that an animal that has a potential productive lifespan of over 20 years is being discarded before it is even physically mature and it is managment under these blue ribbon practices that is responsible. I personally include longevity as a measure of success and it is stunning that our tax dollars are supporting a system based on practices and 'science' that is so completely wasteful and excluding any moral context there is no way raising a cow to milk for a total of 2 or 3 years is cost effective. If it wasn't being completely supported by govt programs it would not be happening. 

So is this a practice you want for your animals- even tho it is backed up by reserach?
It is to me only science of the possible- it is possible to feed animals this way and keep records that seem to show success but is it the best method or even a consideration if you are not geared for using animals up and quickly replacing them.
I wish people understood the real costs of the food they take so for granted.

Lee


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

20 year old cows with 18 lactations under their belt are hard to find, if at all, let alone 22 year old cows with 20 productive years. Didn't happen when they were still roaming the prairie and isn't happening for 99% or more of the 'pampered' home cows/family milkers. I agree that meat, as compared to milk is a wasteful product in the sense that it takes a lot more input than milk, while both are excellent sources of protein, and milk does not take away your animal (production unit, if you will..... :twisted you can hate me just for using that word, I hate it too, but it's whats being thrown at us all the time). 

Longevity is without a doubt a measure of succes and I think some large operations as well as many hobby 'farmers' fail that test pretty miserably, and my guess is, that percentage wise the amount of hobbyistss failing to give adequate care to their animals is larger than those who are doing this for a business. Just because we love an animal, doesn't mean we're doing a good job with it. There are a lot of people jumping into animals and due to lack of knowledge the first few years their animals of whatever species turn into guinee pigs more than anything else (read this forum and weep...) 

As for large farms, I am not at all denying there's bad apples, there's farms I've been to where I told the dairy farmer flat in his face why he thought he needed to be milking cows if he didn't give a beep about them, farms I will not ever defend, because one should take the best of care of those (people and animals) entrusted to them. 

For some time, being large per se was pushed more in agriculture than anything else. Because large fit in where most countries wanted to go with their economies, their factories and farms (and those are two VERY different things), because people wanted more luxury, more food, for less money. But please do not forget that much has changed on farms over the past 10 years, both due to the majority of farmers knowing that 'if I don'yt take care of Bertha, she doesn't take care of me' and other farmers 'seeing the light' AND (kudos to you, Lee and others) pressure from consumers, who expect not only quality but also compassion. 

We may be on opposite sides of a very long bridge, but I guess we all do much better if we try to keep on taking small steps in each others direction while trying to keep an open mind about what 'they're doing on the other side'. Hope to meet you in the middle some day.

Marion


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Marion- thanks for that insight into your dairy experience. 

I was referring to depending on the big agri university processes used to determine that 3/8ths of an inch is a good size to chop fiber for those deciding how to feed a few goats used as home milkers.
(and the abysmal results of this being an ok measure of adequate care which we know results in a cow that is useless at one quarter the normal lifecycle)

If there is any other alternative in small scale livestock rearing why would you do something directed by a system that only works with outside financial support. Small dairy goat herds don't have financial support systems that allow for raising up stock to repeatedly replace animals that have not been nurtured for longevity. The issue is fostering the improper use of the rumen which obviously fails at proper nutrition under this regime. My point is I think most goat owners would be far happier ensuring that their goats get to cud over something more than 3/8ths inch. 

I don't understand your comment about the bridge- you don't plan to use up your personal animals and you feel longevity is a measure of success so I think we are on the same side of the bridge. Big Agri is on the other side and by that I mean the world conglomerates that determine how we farm. Maybe you can help make some changes since you have a foot in both worlds 
Lee


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I think this is a case of each person looking at the same issue from different viewpoints. It sounds to me like everyone is pretty much in agreement.

I agree "people" seem pretty content with shortened life expectancies for goats. I think this is one unspoken perhaps subconscious reason people don't test for CAE. They expect them to die of something else first.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

> Big Agri is on the other side and by that I mean the world conglomerates that determine how we farm.





> I give up for today. Tired of running in circles.


The way I see your two positions (might have misinterpreted):

Lee: People have an inherent right to farm and choose the course of their lives, including what they raise and eat. Most people rely on modern conveniences. There should be choices and fair competition in modern conveniences to let people choose.

Marion: People have the right to choose to farm as they want, including using best available research to control their destiny. So long as the research is done, we humans can engineer and use our cleverness to make the world a better place. Our modern conveniences, when proven to be effective, should be used. In competition, the consumer chooses. And the reason modern agricultural companies succeed is because the consumers want those products, and because they make life better.

My view on these issues is that it so so highly complex to untangle human relationships and try to evaluate what is helpful and what isn't. It's not a demonization kind of effort because life is full of situations that balance the absurd and the sensical. For example, large agricultural companies really do save the effort of weeding. And modern production really has increased yields. Where I find it difficult to discover any good is where human arrogance comes into play. Here's where I see huge amounts of arrogance:

- That studies done with short-term variables (like 1-2 generation bee studies and persistent pesticides) can be abstracted to be the same as systemic, long-term variables
- That the scientific method poses answers to all issues
- That all aspects of systemic interaction can be modeled and monitored for when using chemical additives to systems
- That less work is healthy
- That health and wellness and nutrition can be reduced to macro/micro nutrients and trace elements.
- Competition is not fair. Companies are out to make profit and create win-win for farmers and themselves in a way that is "good enough" for the earth, not in a way that is optimal for the earth. The damage is a cost of doing business.

and so on. I think it is with concepts like these that we have real disagreements about. On the one hand, companies seem like they have real people who try to help. And on the other hand, those people, and those companies, don't seem to "get" the philosophical framework I started to write about above.



> determine that 3/8ths of an inch is a good size to chop fiber for those deciding how to feed a few goats used as home milkers.


I want to stress that in those studies (I've read dozens of the original ones), it is VERY context specific. meaning, it was a TMR, or often a formulated ration, or similar. That size cannot be abstracted to apply universally, and cannot be abstracted to apply to goats.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Ummm Pav- I wasn't really trying to say anything so complex. Thanks for your take on it !
I apologize if my response on the original topic (where is Lacia?) got lost in all the philosophical exploration. Certainly enjoy tossing ideas around but all I was trying to say was that I disagree that length of fiber does not make a difference in dairy goats.

My answer to Lacia's inquiry is- With the aim of maintaining long term health of a diary doe that is expected to produce multiple fetuses yearly and milk to genetic capacity over an extended life span while maintaining body condition the inclusion of copious amounts of long fiber feedstuffs is invaluable if not essential to optimum digestive function. 

That's it :biggrin
Lee


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Okay, thanks, frustration level down, it's been a long day... Particle sizes were 3/4 inch and almost 1 inch, not 3/8 (that would be alfalfa pellets, probably?), and those sizes ar for silage and haylage in cow rations, feedstuffs we _don't_ feed to goats. Hay, I mentioned, should be left at 3 inch and that is more than enough, longer than 3 inch doesn't make a difference.

I believe every one should live and farm (or not farm) exactly the way they want to (within regulations), but I am a 'dreaming realist', meaning that I do believe that a big wealthy country like ours can and should do it's part in feeding the entire US and world population, and I don't believe we will be able to pull that off by using organic systems only. It's too expensive (I could never afford the prices I see for organic veggies and such in stores, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one). In my own yard/garden I have NEVER used any chemicals (fertilizer or pesticides/herbicides), but we can't grow all our crops that way. That's what I mean with being on both sides of I long bridge. I believe farmers are responsible for feeding many people and for keeping the environment clean, others believe that everything except organic is evil. I stand opposed to that, because I just don't think it's realistic. That's all. And as for 'organic feeds' to feed to your animals...well unless you grow them yourself (way to go!)........the US does not currently produce enough certified organic grains to feed to all organically raised livestock, so a good part of certified organic livestock raisers feed imported 'organic' grains from countries like China and Brazil.....oops! I'd like to see those organic plots! Plus, remember I mentioned that there are some farms taking such bad care of their animals that I would never defend them? One of those is currently one of the largest organic dairy herds in the US, I believe. Unless they have made many changes over the past few years, it is, in their case, literally, all a load of c...

The rerason why I throw some cow information in the discussion every now and then is not because I believe cows and goats are the same, but because there's simply more cow research available than goat research, or in this case, I was actually asked to do so. But this is a goat forum, and I'm on it to learn more about goats and possibly help some others while they're learning. I don't want to get in a 'big bad ag' discussion every time we talk about nutrition. So please: (world) Peace goat brothers and sisters!!! :biggrin


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

buckrun said:


> Ummm Pav- I wasn't really trying to say anything so complex... I apologize if my response on the original topic (where is Lacia?) got lost in all the philosophical...I disagree that length of fiber does not make a difference in dairy goats... My answer to Lacia's inquiry is- With the aim of maintaining long term health of a diary doe that is expected to produce multiple fetuses yearly and milk to genetic capacity over an extended life span while maintaining body condition the inclusion of copious amounts of long fiber feedstuffs is invaluable if not essential to optimum digestive function.


Where is Lacia? Reading and getting overloaded! LOL. Partly that's cuz I have 2 other life situations that are overloading too, and yday my internet didn't want to work for more than a few minutes at time, even after rebooting everything. I wrote a response and it disappeared when I hit Post, probably due to my connection issues yday. Most days it magically seems to work fine. Go figure.

Complex is right, wow, I had no idea this was so big and would touch a cord for so many and on so many tangents!

I woke short on sleep with a bad headache this morning, this has happened all my life randomly, even as a child I would wake some days in agony, but its MUCH worse after a serious car accident head injury years ago. Doctors don't seem to have any idea why I've always had this. Migraine meds help some, but have other effects. Low doses (1/8-1/4 normal dose) of muscle relaxants seem to help the most if anything will make a dent in it for the day. Ice on the base of my skull and/or the knots between my shoulder blades also seem to help at different times but that's MISERABLE, hopefully only short term but makes it MUCH worse, sometimes intolerable, before it makes it better. Heat is exactly opposite, LOL, feels better while heat is on, then rebounds worse when heat removed. Chiro helps depending on the practioner, some are useless, one was a miracle worker but he retired and the hour drive was a barrier to that help anyway. Any significant pain is distracting, but this headache comes with lowered functioning, it takes me a long time and a lot of mistakes to type a sentence.

So I'll probably come back to some key points in this thread later. But a lifetime of this and some much more serious health stuff has contributed to a big dose of skepticism for the fine print in science study results. The extrapolations of safe/not, effective/not get taken waaaaayyyyy beyond the narrow study of only one part or timing of/in a system, and sometimes that part isolated from the rest of its system, will have very different results! I see this in horticulture research all the time.

Pav and I have talked about this vis a vie our hay feeding IRL (grass vs alfalfa hay and eating stems of alfalfa hay or not) and I understood something different than what I get from his post here, so that's one I want to come back to when my head's better.

Lee wrote: [/quote]


buckrun said:


> ...I can't see congratulating ourselves on these science based methods for so called 'optimum' feeding used to produce copious amts of dairy products when the average hambuger in the USA is made of a 4year old dairy cow...I find that wasteful and indeed- obscene- that an animal that has a potential productive lifespan of over 20 years is being discarded ... managment under these blue ribbon practices that is responsible. I personally include longevity as a measure of success and it is stunning that our tax dollars are supporting a system based on practices and 'science' that is so completely wasteful and excluding any moral context there is no way raising a cow to milk for a total of 2 or 3 years is cost effective. If it wasn't being completely supported by govt programs it would not be happening.
> 
> So is this a practice you want for your animals- even tho it is backed up by reserach?
> ... I wish people understood the real costs of the food they take so for granted.


:yeahthat
Seems off topic for the original question, but its really part of the underlying premise about who/what/when has REAL answers for our specific situations. Long term productivity is a good measure, and studies that burn them out young are not "optimal" feeding in my book regardless of short term numbers. Kind of like race cars running on jet fuel, we don't extrapolate their short bursts of speed to our cars that we want to last.

Seems pretty clear at this point, you can get more milk in the short term, by pushing rapid digestion, more protein, grain etc, but that's kind of like the race car using jet fuel and needing a tuneup or rebuild after every race. That's not a successful model for our daily car use and leads to the burn 'em out make hamburger paradigm. I think we're all on the same page there, that is not what we're trying to do, so we do have to exercise a LOT of skeptical thought in extrapolating those studies that have a different success goal than we do.

Back to the essence of the original question, do we need to feed "long" fiber like grass hay, or is the fiber that's in alfalfa pellets good enough and in fact more than the alfalfa fiber they would waste with alfalfa hay?

This has come to a relevant head right now for me, due as I said to the prices of feed, and also that I'm having to find a new place to keep my buck(s) and people are just so ADAMANT that they are right in their OPPOSITE opinions and feeding practices! LOL. I need to be very clear inside myself on my understanding about why * I * want to feed a particular way.

Here's what I get so far from what everyone has said:

Bottom line: Long fiber, more than just what's macerated into alfalfa pellets, probably does matter. Devil's in the details, how long is "long" and how much do they need...

I still don't totally get how those who feed only alfalfa hay with so much stem wasted, get enough fiber. Maybe its that they don't need so much, a little goes a long way, and in fact is better than more total fiber from stems in little pieces in alf pellets? I can see how this might be possible. A few branches/twigs can sure make a sort of "mat" and drastically slow down me moving a compost pile via the bottle neck of a wheel barrow, maybe rumen movement is similar and it really doesn't take that much to slow down the transit/digestion, mix things up and get the saliva/cud/pH buffering effects. So how much then and what length is "long" enough? Where does the 3" come from?

Length of fiber and who/where do we get good info for goats? That seems to be the crux of it? Is 3/4-1" long enough? 3"? According to who, with what study results over what length of time with what species?

As a Permaculture teacher, if I look to Nature's models, realizing our goats are a bit out from natural state, but I think not in this respect... if I look at the length of forage they eat when out browsing and they have total choice what length to chew the branches or grass off at... then I see some super long "spaghetti" eating, but mostly not, the modal lengths I have noticed are probably in the 4-6" range. They will often molar chomp off a long dangling piece they've pulled down, and eat it as a few separate bites, definitely shorter than the 1-2' long strands of hay we feed them... Food for thought in what is "long" fiber. I'd love to hear what you all have noticed about how long of pieces your goats seem to browse.

I'm not sure I buy the "scale" factor between cows and goats as relevant, maybe... I can see it in analogy to a compost pile, if you have only a 2 cubic foot compost pile, its going to do its "fermenting" equivalent differently than a 10 cubic yard pile... I get that, but not sure its the right paradigm, that stomach volume matters in the same way. Does it matter for beer brewing or cheese making? Not so much in my experience until you really get to extremes. I can make a half gallon batch, or a 4 gallon batch, that's a factor of 8, close to goat/cow size factor, and it doesn't change the process much except for logistics. It IS harder to keep temp/moisture/pH/conditions steady in smaller volume, tiny changes have bigger effects on the whole when the surface area/volume ratio is different etc.

I think the bigger problem with extrapolating from cows to goats is that cows are grass-based with higher carbs/sugars/faster digestion, and goats are more omnivorous and eat more slower digesting lignins etc. Probably finding research on deer farming might be better? I know I've seen some somewhere... Granted that's mostly not "dairy" and longevity may not be part of the equation for meat farming, those would be cautionary details to think skeptically about in extrapolating from there. And not a lot of research either, but I know I've seen some, as a New Thing it got research attention for awhile vs the contempt-of-the-familiar lack of research on goats.

So that's kind of where I am with it with the info so far. If chopping hay to 3" is "long" enough and I can do it in some effective manner for my small herd and reduce the waste, maybe that's worth exploring. Someone mentioned feeding lower protein/quality hay for roughage and providing most of the nutrition in the alfalfa pellets, that sounds like it might get the best of both worlds?

I can easily find affordable, low protein, unsprayed local hay if that still takes care of the long fiber, and the alf pellets take care of the nutrition, like mixing hot and cold water 'til its just right, heheheheee. As (Trysta?) calculated however, we'd have to be careful not to fill them up too much with the lower nutrition roughage so they don't have room for the nutritious component. That's like the human "eat rabbit greens to lose weight" diets, LOL. We can't eat 12 lbs of lettuce to get enough protein and neither can they eat 12 lbs of lower protein hay.

But I know plenty of folks who eat mostly of lettuce/greens with added nuts/legumes to increase total protein, and so maybe the goats can do the mostly only roughage hay and alf pellets... I know its not a perfect analogy, we're single stomached omnivores who mostly eat varying amounts of meat for concentrated protein, but I live in Vegan Land Culture here and let's skip that whole debate if they are healthy or not, and just use the part of the analogy that's relevant, that we have to add a higher nutritional component to the total diet if we are eating large amounts of high water/fiber foods.

Which brings me to feeding "concentrates" pellets or grain... I find myself feeding less and less grain and my milking does are not cutting back production and are shiny and most of them bordering on getting fat. Granted, they are milking thru 17-35 months, we're not talking peak production, so I guess that is "cutting back production" in a sense, the two that freshened this year do seem to need a bit more grain to keep up production and one I did have trouble keeping weight on at peak and finally resorted to a bit of Calf Manna even. But let's split out Apples=Peak from Oranges=Longterm production for a moment, and look at them separately.

In comparing with other goatkeepers who are also milking thru, so oranges to oranges... they are feeding a LOT more grain than I am, and I'm actually getting more production! And my does are smaller in size I think every case of comparision, so that's not the explanation. Genetics obviously play a role and its hard to separate genetics from feed in these small sample numbers.

But if I double their grain ration here for a test week or two, which I tried after being told I wasn't giving them enough, I didn't get increased milk production, they are still gaining weight on lower grain amount etc. So I tentatively conclude that unless they are having trouble keeping weight on, they don't need grain to produce moderate amounts over a long time?

That goes back to the whole "jet fuel in race cars" analogy for pushing max production, and the peak stage apples/apples comparison. I wish I could get the others that are milking thru and feeding more grain to cut back for a week or two test and see if their milk increased/decreased/no change, LOL. And I should see if I can figure out from my data how much the cost of my milk changes in the milking thru period vs the peak production that we're always told in the only economically viable way to do it. That's another thread...

The other difference in my feeding vs the others I compare with, is that theirs get free choice alf pellets, mine get around 1.5% of body weight in alf pellets if I'm doing the math right, and mine get LOTS more browse, and I do mean LOTS and great variety of plants.

Which brings me to what someone said about pasture/browse, water content... that their production dropped on 18% tested hay vs when they had lush pasture. That's a similar result to what I'm seeing with the milking thru folks I'm comparing with above. They feed more grain and unlimited free choice alf pellets, I feed a LOT more green browse, and I'm getting a little more milk. I think goats do better on FRESH food when possible. I think of sailing trips in my youth, LOL, and when the fresh veggies ran out and we lived on packaged stuff, even tho' it might meet the government's protein/vit requirements, I don't think I did as well, ehehheeee. Really true when I moved off the childhood farm and started eating grocery store food and having health problems... I joke that feeding them only hay and pellets is like us living on Triscuits and Power bars... in theory we can hit the right numbers of the identified nutritional components, but there's a whole lot more in real food that's not on the officially measured lists!

Plus the ease or difficulty tradeoffs of digesting various dried/fresh foods, water content etc. I don't begin to know how to calculate that or explain with precision. What I can do is empirically look at my results. I've had some fun sending milk to lab from when they've been short on browse, and then at intervals after they get fed huge amounts of fresh browse. In general, the BF%, SNF both go up significantly the day after getting a huge shift from hay to browse. Volumes generally go up a bit too, although not quite as much. In some cases, like feeding massive amounts of giant knotweed for a solid week or two, milk volumes did go down, maybe due to oxylate/calcium interaction. But it took a LOT, like "all they could eat" for a week or two... a rare situation where they were helping with a big invasive plant work party effort, vs normally they get a big variety and milk goes up some vs feeding only hay/pellets, and the BF & SNF components of milk go up.

I hear others say how much cheese yield they get per gallon, or how much they can skim from a jar for butter making, and although they don't send their milk to lab for numbers to compare, from these other observations, I'm pretty sure that what I see in my lab numbers when feeding only hay/pellets holds true for their results too. I have to just smile... The couple of cheese fanatics who have tried my milk, raved about the quality of it too.

I think I've gone on my soapbox before about my rumen ecosystem, biodiversity for health and resilience theory, so I'll skip it now  but I'm getting more and more convinced of it. Numerous goat keepers have been surprised when I say I give mine free choice apple cider pressing pomace without a clumpy poop in the herd for example. That's not all they get of course, LOL, its in a big variety of offered fresh foods, but others say just a small amount gives theirs diarrhea. That's probably another thread really...

So prepping for winter feeding conclusions so far, *IF* its feasible to chop hay to over 3" I might be able to reduce waste without negatively affecting rumen health, I might be able to feed cheaper, lower protein quality hay, with alf pellets for protein (need to do the math on that), plus the math on reducing waste vs time to chop...

Whew!

Where did the hay/roughage keeping them warm in winter part go? I don't see anything on that so far.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

> Where did the hay/roughage keeping them warm in winter part go? I don't see anything on that so far.


IMHO, irrelevant, so long as total fiber intake stays in the at least 20% range.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

oh and I totally forgot about the whole beet pulp fiber question, someone said its longer fiber than alf pellets, lots of folks say it puts weight on but why isn't so clear? Someone said somthing about the fibers were easier to digest?

I guess I don't really care, its only about understanding the different kinds of fiber. 

I'm not about to start feeding GMO beet stuff in any quantity. I know, I'm going to have to figure out about alfalfa this next year too if farmers jump on the new ruling allowing them to start planting GMO alfalfa... I'm going to go plant a neighbors back yard with non-GMO alfalfa today while I can! Yes, I have permission, ehhehheeee. And plant some more of the giant feed beets, they do triple duty here to help break up clay and bring up nutrients from our rainy leached soils.

Let's not get off on the GMO topic, I just can't ask about beet fiber without it coming up, but I really want to to focus on learning about fibers and save the GMO discussion for another time. Pretty please?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Long term productivity is a good measure, and studies that burn them out young are not "optimal" feeding in my book regardless of short term numbers.
...........................

I understand Lee's tangent exactly Lacia, with most of the literature you can glean from coming out of the large dairy situations where burn them out young is exactly the model, than who would want to read to much into their advice? When those who are going after top 10 give advice, I yawn. When someone who has all the pretty hay and freeze, sorry it has nothing at all to do with my herd.

I don't have a dog in the fight anymore, I am small, I am milking a whole 6 goats, I will be milking a whole 8 goats next year. I am self supporting and I don't give a rats patoty what anyone else feeds  Butcher a goat and I defy you to find any long stem forage in her rumen, if you do you have a goat who has a very sluggish rumen or has bad teeth.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I have no idea how to feed a goat non- GMO, wish I did!! I'm feeding beet pulp to stretch hay in a drought and have been happy thus far with the results in the short term. Ultimately for me, it ends up being what I can find at my feed store and down the block. I'm moving to the land of corn and beans, so it will be interesting to adapt. Looking forward to the green hay and hard freezes!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Long term productivity is a good measure...large dairy situations where burn them out young is... the model, than who would want to read to much into their advice? When those who are going after top 10 give advice, I yawn... Butcher a goat and I defy you to find any long stem forage in her rumen, if you do you have a goat who has a very sluggish rumen or has bad teeth.


LOL, on the bad teeth, I have a pic I want to get and questions about that some day... I'm noticing most have some nasty brown on their teeth, that just goes with the territory and no one is brushing goat teeth like pet dogs yet, right? :rofl

On the butchering and stomach contents, it would be really interesting, I bet those who butcher regularly have some info?

I would have to think there might be some study about rumen contents and transit time, how long that 6" branch I see them eat takes to turn into the same macerated fiber in alfalfa pellets. I'm betting its only 1-2 cud chews, but I don't know how the physical mechanism works, what dictates movement to the next stomach.

Going by toxic plant ingestion, if I've been able to get enough activated charcoal into the goats I'm called to help within 2 hrs, they barely seem to feel it. They start vomitiing generally in 4-6 hrs after ingestion, which says to me that the Rhody branches are thoroughly macerated by then. After about 8 hrs, its out of our hands for anything more than supportive fluids, prayer, and luck of how much they ate vs their constitutional organ strength.

If that 6" branch takes 4 hrs to turn into the same macerated fiber as in alfalfa pellets, is that enough to make a difference in the buffering and other attributed benefits of long fiber? 2 hrs? 6 hrs? I have no idea.... Or what Pav was saying about the "mat" does that mean it doesn't come up in the cud until its half eaten by microbes and that makes a difference?

The cud I have seen is all pretty small pieces, seems more like they are chewing tobacco and "juicing" the cud LOL. I know the pieces really do get smaller with cudding, but the largest pieces I've seen were in the 1/2" range, so when and what happens between ingestion at 6" long and what I've seen in the cud?

The compost analogy there would say that bigger branches/twigs provide habitat for fungal mycelium that smaller pieces of wood can not do. Only when the mycelium have digested a good portion of the wood, is it rotten enough to break into pieces for greater surface area for the rest of the composting microbes? Is that a good physical analogy?

I think we're all in agreement here about short term vs long term production value... Maybe the key number for evaluating the wisdom of an experienced goat keeper might be Lifetime production averages for their herd, not just Top 10 for a year. I was looking at some Top 10 does records that the following years were drastically down and it does make me consider the rumen burnout factor.

But if we look at Lifetime production, that's harder info to find and compare those genetics sold to other managment.... And then that means my whole rumen diversity theory won't have credibility until I've been on Test for multiple goats' Lifetimes? :rofl

Plus, milking thru cuts into Lifetime production too? But I'd rather have genetics that will milk a level amount for 3 yrs in my situation, until I need kids to improve my genetics, I get "enough" milk with no stress, noise, kidding risks... yes, it takes a bit more time for the amount of milk, but I have other pets too, what's the difference if they fulfill more than one function and its nice time spent with them. They are just such loving creatures, how they put their head on my shoulder and sigh contentedly when I give them their little milking massage. Pain drugs making me wander... I should get off the computer, LOL!

I think milking thru is great for the urban family milkers.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I have never seen a goat swallow a 6 inch piece of hay....... She's got her own choppers, so it's the particle size that lands in the rumen that counts.

One more thing on the particle size for HAYLAGE AND SILAGE (which we DO NOT feed to goats): that info given by me (upon request by PM from one of the forum members, _not_ volunteered by me) did NOT come from some kind of research designed to make cows milk themselves to death like everyone keeps on saying, it actually came from our own trial and error during our 20 years in the dairy business. Our cows were awesome, healthy cows, with an average lifespan of almost 8 years, and 13 year old 'grandma' I mentioned in one of my posts was one of the 'poor cows' that lived happily ever after on that ration with those particle sizes. All goat farmers are not the same and neither are all (cow) dairy farmers, so for heaven's sake quit generalizing. I will completely refrain from ever mentioning a cow on this forum again.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I used to own a cow dairy. We had a lot of old cows who were still producing lots of milk. The only reason I would sell a cow was mastitis problems, meaness, poor production or infertility. They were not fed to death, in fact we were after the higher BF and protein rather than the high milk production, so they got way more forage than grains. My cows were my babies and were treated as well as my goats, horses and dogs. They had names, not numbers, most had 2 names.....registration names and barn names!

We were making a living, though far from rich, and it was the government that shut us down during the buy outs in the 80's. They decided that a house fire meant that you couldn't run a dairy farm, so pulled our loan.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> I think I've gone on my soapbox before about my rumen ecosystem, biodiversity for health and resilience theory,


On this note and to Sully's point of elder cows - there are diaries in EU with less than 50 cows that have an average age of 15 for retiring from the milking parlor at which time they go 'out to pasture' to raise replacement heifers until they are over 20 with the eldest being 25. These are not Holsteins bred for quantity of milk and induced by hormones to burnout conversion levels but a phenotype selected for longevity and for their ability to thrive on a rotational grazing system plus grain for milking ration. ( I use the term to mean the seeds of grasses- not a pelleted ration of byproducts). So it is possible to do successfully- it is just far more costly than current prevalent practices and certainly nothing the American public would pay for.
Lee


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

buckrun said:


> ...a phenotype selected for longevity and for their ability to thrive on a rotational grazing system plus grain for milking ... the seeds of grasses- not a pelleted ration of byproducts)... it is just far more costly than current prevalent practices and certainly nothing the American public would pay for.


Yeah, like the little bit of calculations I've done so far on what my "milking thru" milk costs me does make it look more expensive per gallon  but the peace and sanity is worth a lot for me too. The whole lifecycle costs of things are a very different calculation that just feed+labor=price. I know that's over simplified too, but you know what I mean.

I saw recently on some Do-Gooder list I'm on, that there's a European "no kill" milk brand available, that they don't kill the male kids or old unproductive milkers. There was a discussion about when and where that could ever really be economically viable, partly cuz we're just not used to paying "whole lifecycle" costs for things.

Anway, I'm getting way OT for this thread, LOL...

Sort of closer to the topic, does anyone feed sprouts in winter? I can't imagine its efficient for time but maybe with a good enough system.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

So sorry to hear that, Sully. Glad we both found goats to keep ourselves smiling and sane!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

How in the world do they deal with the males if they are no kill? I can see how it can work for a few small herds, but if everyone did that seems like the excess males would be a big problem...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

They were just likely sold to veal growers. Vicki


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Now...a question about the hay and their digestion process.

Does the coarseness make a difference in the rumen health? As I have mentioned before, I can't get really good hay up here, at least not that I can afford. Its sent out of state for horse people in Massachusetts, Connecticut and NY. I have grass hay that tends to be very coarse. They get that 3 times a day with a "lunch" of alfalfa pellets. Since this hay is weedy and "stalky" sometimes, does this help out their rumen health even more than a finer type of hay would? The coarser stuff does "bulk out" their rumens a lot more than the finer stuff does. Does it produce more acid fighting saliva when they cud? I would think it would take more chewing to break it down, even though those teeth are like razors!

Could this be why my goats seem to handle the processed, molasses drenched concentrates I have to feed them because you can't get much in the way of whole grains up here? (not without paying an arm and a leg for it, when/if it's available anyway) I have never had a problem with them having "stomach" problems in all these years of having goats. Could the coarse, stemmy hay I complain about be actually helping them?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

We always feed grass hay, sometimes quite coarse, to both our goats and our horses. I had one pampered gal come in and complain, but after a few days she was in there going after the grass hay with the rest. If I'm going to pay for alfalfa, I want it in a pellet so not a bite is wasted. Your theory makes sense to me Sully.


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