# Whats the best way to switch from dam fed to bottle fed ???



## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

I have a buckling born 2/2/08 - since he has been born he has been raised by his dam. I have a buyer for him though, and they want to bottle feed him. I belive they may be picking him up sometime between the 15th and 18th of this month. I prefer not to bottle feed as much as possible.

How should i go about making this switch ? I will still be feeding him mom's milk so just need him to take the bottle. When should i attempt this ? Anything else i should know/do ? Thanks !


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

NOW right now at least 1 bottle per day and you may really have to work at it. or else take him away from mom all together so he is hungry PATIENCE is the key here.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

The sooner you do it, the easier it will be. He's only four days old now, so he should be easy to transition now. As long as he's living with his dam, he will likely not be interested in the bottle. The best way would be to take him away from mom now and start bottle feeding him. Once he is nursing well off his bottle, if the dam is still willing to nurse him, you could leave him with her part of the day, taking him away overnite and bottle feeding, if you're not wanting to bottle feed several times a day. Emotionally, it would probably be best for the goats to separate them permanantly at this time so they don't have to go through the stress of being separated part of each day.


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks guys ! I would prefer to get him to take the bottle but keep him with mom untill they pick him up, as i don't want the hassle of having to bottle him if that makes sense. Can i tape her teats to make him hungery ? Then milk her out and try then ?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

You can whether it will work or not is the question.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2008)

Taping teats is an exercise in futility if you ask me, especially when the kids get a little older. You can't put the darn tape on there good enough for them not to get it off.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

I would take him completely away from mother, wait until he is good and hungry then try a warm nipple with warm milk. If he doesn't eat, wait a while longer and try him again. Some kids have to get *very* hungry before they will take a bottle.
If the milk is too warm or too cold, the kid probably won't like it, so get it to just the right temp. When trying to get a frustrating kid to take the nipple, I sit with him sitting curled up on my lap(on a towel as it can be a messy procedure), tuck him under one arm so he is comfortably restrained, and try to feed him that way, supporting and restraining his chin with one hand while feeding him with the other.
Sometimes it takes a while but he is so young it shouldn't be that hard.


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks all ! 

ozark_jewels - Thank you for explaining the procedure as well - i was wondering how best to hold him. 

How hard is this goind to be on his dam ? I feel so bad for her - she is just so in love with her little boy :+(


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh she will beller but she'll be ok.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I've always been able to get little ones (deer, calves, and a couple goat kids) to take bottles. I just hold them firm and put the bottle in their mouth. Don't let them get it out of their mouth. They may kinda knaw on it or whatever for a while. After a few minutes, take it away and give them a break. Just do this each time and eventually they will figure out what it is and suck. My little kids were at least 2 or 3 weeks old and they took a bottle like this. The doe was slower to catch on.


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Ok, two more questions - once he leaves or is taken away, will it be best to put mom back in with the girls, or keep her in the kidding stall for a while ?

I'm also milking her once a day in the evening now - but i'm not seperating her and the kid at all either so am really only getting a cup or two per milking. Once baby is no longer here or nursing, can i continue 1x per day milking, or should i really go to twice a day ( am and pm ) ? I don't need a ton of milk from her, but would still like some - i'm just concerned about her udder health.

Oh man, i'm gonna feel so bad for her by taking her baby away - it does get better though, doesn't it ? 

Thanks !


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

The best way to do this is to separate the kid from the mother at night. In the morning, while the kid is hungry, offer it a bottle. A pritchard nipple works great for kids like this. For those of you who dam raise, if you would do separate the kid nightly and offer the new born kid a bottle of its mother's milk every morning, not only would it help bond the kid to humans, but if the doe got sick and had to be treated, or you udder the doe up for showing, or sell the kid, it is already used to taking the bottle.


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Thats a great idea Tim ! I bet that will make it easier on mom when the kids leaves as well. At 4 days old is he ok to go all night with out eating ? Thanks !


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Well if you were bottle raising a kid - it would go all night without eating, so yes, it can be separated from mother at night and fed in the morning. Just make sure there is a dry place that protected from the wind that your kid can stay in at night. He will be all right.


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## Sunny Daze (Jan 14, 2008)

Ashley said:


> My little kids were at least 2 or 3 weeks old and they took a bottle like this. The doe was slower to catch on.


I have always found the boys are slower to catch on... :shrug2


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

oh, you really need to milk the doe twice a day since you have a dairy doe. Not milking her will put a strain on her udder and udder attachments. Alpines should give an abundance of milk- are you sure she is only producing a cup? 
She should be producing more way milk than what this kid is able to take - What is the doe's age? Even a first freshener should be giving 3 quarts or more a day. Can you give us any clues to her overall health? Speaking of udder health, are both sides of the udder even? A single kid will often nurse only one side.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Sunny Daze said:


> Ashley said:
> 
> 
> > My little kids were at least 2 or 3 weeks old and they took a bottle like this. The doe was slower to catch on.
> ...


 He was very food motivated. The doe was also more needy (wanted mom) and the buck more adventurous.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Yes milk her twice a day and start now she should be producing way more than a cup now.


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Her udder looks great - very even and tightly attached, little man does actually eat on both sides - oh, and just found out last night that he is not sold yet - buyer can't make it so i don't have to bottle him :+) She does have tiny FF teats - but they are starting to get a little bigger :+) 

She is actually my Saanen doe - the rest of them are alpines. She is giving more like 3/4 of a Quart size canning jar at about 6 pm when i milk her . I think she should be giving more too, her dam averaged 16lbs per day as a 2nd freshner i was told. Should i try seperating them for 8 hours or so then see what she gives me ?

She seems to be in very good body condition, but i admit, i'm most likely not feeing what i should be for milk production - i am feeding her barley, Alfafa pellets ( though she won't really eat them anymore since giving birth ??? ) oats and beet pulp and a sprinkle of BOSS - plus she is getting alfalfa/grass mix hay free choice and purina minerals. 

Carmen is only my second milker - i messed up with my first one last year when it came to getting the lactation ration right, and still need help - i have three more does due this year.Last year my alpine really lost condition during lactation and i want my girls to produce, but keep some condition this year. So far Carmen looks good, and i'd like to keep her that way and up her milk - what can i do ?

I was thinking about going to the feed store on Sat. and trying to get something else - any suggestions ??? What about a dairy cow pellet ? Or is there some sort of purina feed that would work for her ? Or a simple but effective recipe for a mix ( for 300lbs worth ) i could have them put together for me ? Thanks !!!


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## Chaty (Oct 25, 2007)

Beet pulp is good if they wont eat the alfafa pellets...


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

OK key is alfalfa /alfalfa /alfalfa for milk production 3lb of alfalfa pellets left out for her along with her grass hay none on the milk stand. I use whole oats/barley/Boss/cracked corn (very little) and beet pulp.
100lb oats
100lb barley
25lb cracked corn
25lb Boss
25lb beet pulp (dry)
then I top dress with a tad of calf mana.

personally I wouldn't pull that baby at night until he is two weeks old now that you don't have to.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Beet pulp helps with milk production but it sure won't replace alfalfa pellets.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

I agree, the sooner the better, and let that little guy get good and hungry overnight. The first taste of food in his mouth usually does the trick. After that, a full tummy usually has him coming to you because he knows that you have to food. Before you know it he'll be trying to climb into your lap for that bottle as soon as you get to his pen. 

Mom ought to be doing more than that. She's holding out on you, waiting for her kid. I've seen does do this. I've got one who's trying to do it right now. I just persist in milking her more than twice a day. Finally I got her to "let down" for me. I got 2 pounds from her at one sitting this morning. Oh man, I hate those little teats :sigh , but they're growing. She's doing ok. I give her udder a good massage to try to break up congestion in it and bump it around like her kids would do. I just have to keep working on her and keep some food in front of her while I'm working on her udder to keep her interested. For a first freshener, she's learning quickly. I'm pleased. Just keep trying. She'll get used to it. Good Luck.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Of course, I have to remove my kids at birth and give them heat-treated colostrum and pasteurized milk from then on. I have to do night feedings for a few weeks. However, I'm trying to insure that I don't pass along CAE in my herd. I haven't tested, so I don't know if I have anybody that's positive, but I'm not taking any chances. I act like anybody in my herd could be infected and take all the precautions I can take. I have an 8 year old doe who looks normal, no outward signs of CAE, and none of my other individuals look affected either. but I'm not taking any chances. Man, I gotta get tested. :blush2 My location is very remote though and I'm scared to draw blood. I don't know what my vet would charge to do it, but I really gotta get that done. :sigh


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Sondra - do you feed any dairy pellets at all ? I know Alfalfa is important, she used to gobble up her pellets, now she won't touch them since she gave birth- i do even leave them out 24/7 for her - then after 24 hours i give them to the other girls and put fresh ones in front of her - she still won't touch them - whats up with this ?

I'm glad i don't have to pull Ace ( hubby named him ) - i'm sure i'll have some kid down the road that i will, i'm just glad i don't have to now :+)

When i milk her she is wonderful - eats her grain mix and is such a lady - if guess she could be holding back on me though, but it seems like i pretty much get it all - i'm not striping her till i can't get another drop, as when i put her back in with her buckling he seems to finish it - should i do this differently ?

I'll try your mix - can i add say 25lbs dairy pellet to make a 300lb mix ? 

Thanks everybody !!!!


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Linda - i'm planning on doing all my CAE testing this year as well - this doe was negative before i bought her, but i want to re-test and test everybody then test at least yearly - i've never had any signs of it either. Infact i was going to test Carmen's colostrum, but i thought it was 24 hours you had to get it after they kidded - well so the next day i went to go get it and re-read the intructions - it's within 12 hours :+( oh well, i'll have to send in her blood. 

I did learn though that you can freeze the colostrum till you send it in-which is nice, then i can collect from each of my does as they kid ( within 12 hours this time lol ) on 2/18, 3/31 and 4/18.

I do hope she isn't holding out on me - how can you tell if she is, or if she is just empty ?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

NO I feed no pellets other than alfalfa pellets. 
Are you feeding an alfalfa hay mix?? if so nope she won't eat alfalfa pellets. Did you change brands of alfalfa pellets?? are they dusty have you ckd for smell ie mold??

I really don't know why you would want dairy pellets added course I don't know what they are. 

I'll bet you money that she is not letting down for you to milk either. Tell you what for one night pull that baby outa there and milk her first thing in the morning using warm warm compresses /massage then milk and see what you get.


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

They are the same alfalfa pellets, they look great, everybody else eats them, and she did too before she kidded. The hay i feed is alfalfa/grass mix - but very little alfalfa in it.

I'm not sure whats in the dairy pellets either - i've just heard of others feeding them in a grain mix. Is there any recomended brand of pre-mixxed grain out there for a lactating doe ? Though i would like to try my own mix, maybe i should try a pre-mix first ?

I think maybe this weekend i will try to seperate them - would maybe like 8 hours during the day work ? Seperate them in the morning, then milk her in the evening and put them back together ? 

She should be producing more then what she is, i hope to figure it out soon :+) Thanks !!!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Nope would separated during the day if I had the choice babies nurse every so often during the day but sleep more at night as does mom. don't know why you would try a premix first when Vicki is just feeding plain oats with oil drizzled on it. BUT alfalfa pellets. off the stand. I am not one for premix stuff as it is not the best quality of anything. Just whole oats would be a much better quality. where as you get millings with a premix.


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks Sondra ~ I'm glad i asked - i'll go with a custom mix then, and seperate at night - maybe this Sat or Sun - then i'll post what i get on Monday :+) Thanks again !!!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

They can make the mix getting you to 300lb if that is what you need. I just buy the separate bags and mix myself in a 55 gal drum usually half at a time.


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Hey - Carmen appears to be in heat ??? She is vocal and REALLY flagging her tail - could this possibly be a reason for lower milk production at all ? She must have just came into heat, as the first time i noticed it was this morning doing chores - i had no idea she would even come into heat after kidding, and at this time of the year ??? I'm confused here.

Well i will test her by taking Ace away for a while, then seeing what i get, and will post the difference on Monday. Thanks !!!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

yes hormon's play a big part


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Well over the weekend i didn't seperate the two of them, but on Sat. milking instead of 1-2 cups of milk, i got 2 quarts ! Thats much better isn't it ? again on Sun. i got 2 quarts. Is the sudden increase just her upping her production then ? Thanks !


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

both she is letting down and letting you get milk also hormons from being in heat. I would think


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Make feed changes really really slowly. Increasing grain too much or changes when first fresh is not a really good idea. Vicki


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