# Ketosis



## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

I have a Nubian doe due in 13 days.
Her condition has rapidly declined, and I am sure I'm dealing with ketosis, which is something I've not had a case of in the 5 years I've had dairy goats.

She is still eating, walking and drinking well - not with gusto and is a bit lethargic.

Can anyone please give me the overview of their recommended treatment?

I have currently doing fortified b complex injections, giving Dextrose, calcium gluconate and Mola/Corn Syrup drenches and giving a probiotic. . . but I'd be interested to hear everyone dosages on the dextrose and calcium g.

I simply don't have a good feeling about how she is doing and I know time is of the essence. I can induce, but I hate to lose the kids if the odds of saving the dam and kids is reasonably good. If not, I will induce and hopefully save the doe.

I can get any RX meds needed from my vet, but at this point, I'm not sure what to even ask for, if anything.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm always for finding out what you're really dealing with when possible.

Get ketosis test strips, most pharmacies/drugstores have them, find out if/how bad she's doing on this one issue at least. You'll have to read book, talk on phone etc and hang with her until she pees, but I've found the info invaluable to knowing where they really are on the ketotic continuum so I can tailor and treat the correct issue with the correct urgency.

I had one that I thought was not eating enough, getting worse, feared ketosis... tested her and she wasn't, so I started looking at other things. Long story short, figured out she was really in pain, heavy bred kids pressing on a nerve or something. Pain was reducing her activity level in line with her reduced appetite, so she hadn't ketosis yet. She was fine as soon as she kidded. Hadn't had any issues previous pregnancies so will watch her carefully next time to see if this was a fluke or she has some issue that means she needs to retire early.

Banamine helped, Dex made her ravenous... but my favorite vet really cautions about using Dex as it suppresses the immune system, so work with yours on timing with kidding and making sure udder's got super clean place to lie in, etc.

That sounds like a lot of sugars she's getting, not sure how much of each you're actually giving. There might be an acidosis cycle reducing appetite too. Does she have free choice baking soda? I might drench or ball some into her to see if that makes her feel better at all, and try for more complex carbs like carrots or whatever she likes.

Other essential I'd be checking... how her eyelids? Fecal her? Where's she at on minerals?


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

She has free choice cargill emerald (the store was out of onyx) bo-se 1 month ago and copper bolused, eyelids dark pink - had cydectin 3 weeks ago and repeated ten days later.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Read up on ketosis/hypocalcaemia/milk fever in GK101. It is all there.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

How old is this doe? Also is there a Liverfluke problem where you live?


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

No doubts it is ketosis. . .I've looked over the info on GK101. . .But I'm still unsure where I go from here - it talks mostly about a doe off feed totally, and this doe is still eating semi-normally and drinking. . .

I am unsure if dex/luting her and getting the kids out, which I will lose because she is still 13 days out from kidding, is my best choice of action


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

We dealt with ketosis when our best doe got a tooth abscess and quit eating. It took several days for me to find the tooth, which was too much of a delay in my estimation. I got our vet out here, a good guy who has raised goats in the past. Anyway, we treated her with 120 ml of dextrose (one dose), a probiotic, and predef 2x. (She was not pregnant). She also had CMPK, antibiotics, b vitamins and BoSE. I worked to keep her from getting acidic with baking soda and some Mylanta.

We made good progress with that treatment and she started to turn around, but got pneumonia a week later. It was all downhill after that.

I don't know if that helps at all. It's just my experience with ketosis. 

Good luck with your girl and her babes!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

You need to give her something to get her blood sugar up. I know propylene glycol is frowned upon here, but that is what it says to use in GK101. Does dextrose do the same thing? I would also get injectable CMPK and give her that, as well.

Long term, you need to look at diet. What are you feeding?


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I would get this doe to a vet for some IV dextrose........the longer you wait, they poorer the prognosis for her.
You have to decide which is more valuable to you, her or the kids.


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

I have 8 does due, and she started this pregnancy fat, and the others are doing very well. . .exercise has been very limited here due to fence issues, and I feel there has been a lack in calcium lately in the hay because hay has been somewhat scarce and quality compromised. 

She is who I'd prefer to save.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Add alfalfa pellets to their diet. We ran out of alfalfa hay and had to go to grass so we added alfalfa pellets. We have found more alfalfa hay, but it is very stemmy so we're continuing pellet supplementation.

I agree with Janie; call the vet.


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

I've picked up IV fluids and will start that soon. I went on and gave 120cc of P/G earlier. I've got Injectable CMPK coming and have lute and dex, if I need to induce. The vet said he couldn't recommend anything but would give me whatever I needed to tackle this on my own


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

Some improvement


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Keep at it then.

You are lucky that your vet will give you whatever meds you need. Some won't.

Keep us posted.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Small improvement is at least in the right direction, that's some pretty serious ketosis there.

The vet that I like who basically agrees that PG has problems, says only give up to 2oz once, to buy time to fix underlying problem, and mix it with something to drench to lessen the burn. If you have the time/means to get other complex carbs in her, he says that's what PG is meant for, fast predictable/consistent for human producers, way to get something that body metabolizes as complex carbs. He likes my veggie complex carbs better, whole banana with peel, sweet potato, carrot, pea pods etc. But its not reasonable for everyone to do that, or goats don't like it etc, and its not "measurable" dose so its time consuming to try to monitor and push consumption.

I don't know how much similarity there is with my overfat doe that I dealt with. The thread started with her slow labor and my thinking that was a CMPK problem, but she also wasn't eating properly... so the discussion morphs into treating fatty liver. She's doing great now, milking her full 9 pounds plus, kids are super strong and vigorous. The page with the fatty liver stuff is pg 6 on the thread, I'm not sure if this link goes to the beginning of the thread or that page. 
http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f19/cmpk-sluggish-labor-33063/index6.html

The does daughter that I talk about there that was also overfat, but not as much, I had less success with. Lost the kids, but the doe is still hanging in there so far, had to get vet surgical help to remove dead kids. I'm back to similar ketosis strip monitoring and getting complex carbs in her.

Big wake up call/reminder to me, that management prevention is easier and less stressful in the long run. Cheaper too.  Its so easy to be aware of a brewing problem, and say "tomorrow, next paycheck, etc." but when it comes to a crisis then we find the time & resources, and it takes more then! I've heard hard lessons learned from many of the long time folks here...

Sending good thoughts your way!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

How is the doe today, Tia?


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

Thank everyone. . . she is now on the moderate level on the keytone strip, so more improvement -
I've started the induction process with Dex and now, 24 hours later, gave lute. . .

I think the kids should have a viable chance - it they are born now, they would be 7 days early, but
my long time dairy friend says expect kids in 24-36 hours from today, so the kids could be 5-6 days early. . .
Hoping that means they have a shot at making it.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Be prepared to give those kids Dex to continue to help those lungs mature. Premies have a hard time regulating their body temperature, so either have them in the house (possibly with a heat lamp that they can get to but also get away from) or warm, draft-free place, with a heat lamp, outside.

They will need to be monitored pretty closely the first few days - and again, it can take several days or more before they get their body temp regulator going good. Just because they are energetic and bouncy does NOT mean that they are good to go...

Also, the doe should receive some CMPK/MFO for at least several days post kidding. If she seems fine, then if she were mine, I would give her a supplemental dose at least once a day. At that point, just use molasses for energy/flavor and cutting the liquid CMPK. If you are giving shots, then molasses, karo syrup, and a pinch of mineral salt mixed with hot water. Do give the calcium either way.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If she is truly ketotic, than the kids have zero chance of living through this anyway. The day you start PG will be the day she quits eating.

Most ketosis is mismanagement, fat does, skinny does who can't consume enough calories/energy in the food they are getting. Otherwise it is misdiagnosed hypocalcemia, and injecting CMPK will turn them around without going down the road of ketosis treatment in goats that simply doesn't work. Their rumens go acidic on you, they stop eating, and until the kids are out the are round the clock care with dead kids and a meager at best milk supply.

Any doe getting more grain than roughage will show color on a ketosis strips. If she is eating I would not be doing much of anything, certainly not filling her rumen with corn syrup, course unless you are tubing it, liquid isn't going into her rumen anyway.

I would be giving her CMPK or the calcium gluconate 30cc every 4 hours, unless it starts pooling. Be super careful how you are giving glucose. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> If she is truly ketotic, than the kids have zero chance of living through this anyway. The day you start PG will be the day she quits eating.
> 
> Most ketosis is mismanagement, fat does, skinny does who can't consume enough calories/energy in the food they are getting. Otherwise it is misdiagnosed hypocalcemia, and injecting CMPK will turn them around without going down the road of ketosis treatment in goats that simply doesn't work. Their rumens go acidic on you, they stop eating, and until the kids are out the are round the clock care with dead kids and a meager at best milk supply.
> 
> ...


So how do you treat ketosis?

And what do you mean by "be super careful how you are giving glucose."?


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

She has been on the P/G for two days, and is still eating and drinking fairly well, hasn't gone off fed yet. No P/G today. She was off the charts with ketones when getting the same feed all the other does were, which was largely forage based and they are testing neg. Her test was literally black the second urine hit it. I don't plan to give the P/G again because she should kid in about 24 hours at this point, I hope, and she seems stable. Kids are still moving in there and if she kids in 24 hours, the kids will be 5 day premature. 


If mismanagement, and not saying it isn't - it likely is - I don't understand why all the other does still look very good, all due the same day, on the same feeding? This doe started heavier than the rest, that is the difference, and I probably should have handled her individually in another way. For sure.

I didn't have CMPK injectable at first and gave Cal. Gluc two days before trying P/G. No response.

Paired it with the sugars and still no response.

The only change came when I added Prop/Gl. She has done much better since then and improved since the start of induction with Dex, as well, since yesterday afternoon. Added CMPK 36 hours ago.

A farm friend of mine and former goat dairy owner at Kickdee Hill Sannens as offered a lot of advice during this whole fiasco and she says she feels the kids have a good shot - I SURE HOPE so. I will still be happy to just save the doe.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I believe does can handle your management differently. It could be that your ailing doe got that way because of her weight or it could be something different. Perhaps she is carrying more kids than the other does. Several years back, I had a Boer/Spanish/La Mancha cross doe who had quads. She showed signs of ketosis several days before her due date and I was advised to give her PG. That helped and the day she kidded, she was eating better. The kids were all OK. Back then, I was not on a goat forum and didn't know to give calcium as well. The day after she kidded, she stopped eating again and I took her to the vet who diagnosed MF. He felt goats were not made to have such large litters. He gave Norcalciphos which pulled her out of it with about an hour. He had me also continue with the PG twice a day for a few days. She continued to eat better and was off all treatment a few days later. I hope all goes well with your doe and kids. I've had does kid at 145 days with no problems for the babies.


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

Good news for those following her story - induction took longer than expected:

Couldn't believe the amount of time from the passing of the bag of water until the last kid was delivered - about 4 hours -

I had to help one out and go in and turn 3 others around - Yes, Quads. . .3 bucks and 1 doe.

All lively and drinking well at 7 days early.

The doe is stable, drinking well, eating some and seems much relieved it is over. Birthing was finished at 5pm today - She hasn't passed the placenta yet, but I've given dex and banamine - did a uterine flush and started an injectable antibiotic . . . hoping for the best!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Congrats, Tia! Glad all is well with those kids.

FYI: It's not advised to give Banamine until after they placenta is passed. It will relax her and you really want her to have those contractions to expel it. You can give 1/4 - 1/2cc oxytocin if she hasn't passed it.


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## mammabooh (Sep 15, 2011)

So glad the babies are here and well! How is the doe this morning?


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Well, no wonder she was having a hard time! Great big pat on the back for you! Those babies are beautiful. Hope the dam continues to improve. They can be unstable for a while after such an ordeal.
Again Congratulations!


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Wonderful, all four kids out and doing good. Congrats!


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## bmxmom (May 8, 2011)

What great news!!! You did a great job. Congratulations!


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

The doe finally expelled the placenta - she has a very congested udder on one side - no milk will come out at all via hand or machine -
She is eating normally and up and about with the herd.

Kids are thriving!


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