# Alfalfa vs. clover questions, and please critique my feed recipe



## FaithNJoyOberhasli (Apr 24, 2012)

Some friends of ours recently baled some really nice clover/orchard grass hay (heavy on the clover), and I'm wondering what you guys' opinion is of clover vs. alfalfa. From what I understand, alfalfa is a little better in terms of calcium and protein content but that they are pretty close. I'm especially hesitant to put the milkers on anything other than their alfalfa, as I don't want to see drops in production, but what about for bucks and kids? I'd love to hear your experiences.

Also, I'm about to need to order more feed, and I'm considering a few tweeks to our basic recipe. Here is what we're currently feeding:

7 parts Oats 
5 parts Barley	
4 parts Linseed pellets 
2 parts Wheat bran 
1 part Molasses
Top dress with a little BOSS	

This works out to 16-17% protein, I believe. For the most part, we've been pretty happy with it since we started feeding it last September. But, I'm considering a few changes and wonder what you all think.

First, I want to add the BOSS to the mix so I don't have to top dress it. Second, I'm wondering about the relative benefits (and cost differences) of wheat bran vs beet pulp. I've never used beet pulp, but I keep hearing good things about it and would like more info.

So, the new recipe I'm thinking about is:

6 parts Oats 
5 parts Barley 
4 parts Linseed pellets 
2 parts Wheat bran and/or beet pulp
1 part Molasses (*maybe* increasing this just a little so the bran and mineral stick better--there's often quite a bit of bran at the bottom of their feed dishes when they're done, though that depends on the doe!!)
1 part BOSS
Appropriate amount of dairy or calf pack type mineral (need to call the mill for more info on what they have--ran out of time to do that today)

We are trying to avoid corn and soy (crazy idea, living in Indiana!!), and we also try to avoid mystery pellets, especially in the milk stand grain. 

:whatdoyouthink

Michelle


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I think there is a thread in Goat Keeping 101 on Beet Pulp.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

This is a good link on forages. You click on the different plants to read about them.
http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/agr/agr175/agr175.htm

Clover is a good pasture forage, but it can be difficult to bail properly. Mold or dust could be of concern. Fresh clover boosts production. I've never had any clover hay though.


----------



## FaithNJoyOberhasli (Apr 24, 2012)

Thanks for the hay info--I was kind of wondering that about clover tending to be hard to dry out really well and risking mold. Will check out the beet pulp thread. Any other advice/suggestions on the feed ration?

Michelle


----------



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

We don't have alfalfa up here in Maine, but we do have clover. It dries just fine and my goats and horses love it.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

It seems like I have read something about clover and estrogens, so might want to look into that, maybe it will be something to be careful with feeding to bucks. I know that all legumes have phytoestrogens, but maybe clover has a lot? I don't have to look right now, but try and do a search and see what comes up. Beet pulp is great, I feed it all the time, but if you are trying to avoid corn and soy because of GMO's, then it is probably not something you want to feed either. You could grow your own beets, but then you have to come up with a way to cut them up and feed them. Wheat germ, I believe, is mostly fed as a protein source, yes? Beet pulp is sort of low in protein.


----------



## FaithNJoyOberhasli (Apr 24, 2012)

Thanks--I will look into that about clover, and you're right about my trying to avoid corn and soy because of the GMOs (there are other reasons, but that's a big one). Didn't know that was a problem with beet pulp, too. :sniffle I'll look into that more. It's pretty expensive around here, so it wouldn't be a big component of the feed, but I'll keep thinking about it. I wasn't thinking of it as much as a protein source but for fiber/energy, so I was actually wondering how it compares with wheat *bran*, not wheat *germ*. :???

Thanks!
Michelle


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Oops, my bad on the wheat germ/bran thing. I thought you had wrote germ in the first post.


----------



## grandmajo (May 22, 2008)

I fed clover hay when I couldn't get alfalfa. The pro's, my goats love it, it's usually cheaper and milk production didn't drop. The cons, you have to switch them over to it slowly. It's a bit rich and can give them dog pile poops. And as somebody else stated, it has to be dried correctly or it will get black mold on it.


----------



## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

Watch for nitrate poisoning with rich clover and/or alfalfa hay. If I feed that type of hay, they get it only once a day and in the morning so they can clean it up. I would then feed a grass hay in the evening. Throughout the years, I have lost 2 does to nitrate poisoning and saved one. A good grass hay (timothy, orchard grass, brome) in the evening, a second cut or third cut alfalfa for morning and a whole grain feed averaging 14 - 16% should be perfect. It is when you do not or can't find all the components, is when you need to tweak. I prefer beet pulp to bran for the goats. I feed bran to my horses in the winter in the form of a mash. I don't do that for the goats. If you can't find good alfalfa hay then a red clover will do nicely. I fed a red clover hay out of Canada that was out of this world! Straight red clover, beautiful flowers. It was sort of stemmy and the goats wasted the stems.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I feed rice bran pellets for fat.....you will have to look up wheat bran and see if it is fat or protein. With both BOSS and beet pulp so expensive I would ask the feed mill nutritionist what your fat and energy content is at with your mix now. Especially the linseed meal, I know that this is a product I don't want seen in my mix, but it could simply be because of the heat down here and it making it go rancid.


----------



## FaithNJoyOberhasli (Apr 24, 2012)

Hmm...I'll check on the rice bran. I'm not sure if our mill has it available. Also checking on fat and energy contents--this sure is getting complicated! :crazy I haven't had any trouble so far with the linseed meal going rancid, but I usually only get about 1 month worth of feed at a time (at least through the summer/high-production time; it lasts longer in the winter, of course). I'll watch for that, though.

I'm not familiar with nitrate poisoning. :??? What's that look like?

Also, I'm sure this question has been asked a million times, but how much hay and how much grain do you feed your goats (of various classes)? We've had goats for about 5 years, with a little time off in there due to "life happening", so we aren't total newbies, and yet the more I'm learning, the more I'm re-thinking pretty much everything we've ever done (not a comfortable process, incidentally). So far, thankfully, we've had very, very little in the way of health problems, but I KNOW the key to prevention is primarily ideal nutrition, so I really want to get this part solidly figured out.

Thanks!
Michelle


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I think linseed is the same as flaxseed, right? Here, where I live, I have located some, and it is way cheaper than rice bran. Actually, the rice bran is more expensive than BOSS here. You just have to look at what ingredient prices are for what you want them for, where you live; each area has different things available and at different prices. I talked to a nutritionist at the mill that does the flax, and they said that the least amount of time it would last is about a month, in the hottest part of summer, but it lasts much longer if the weather is cool. And it does get hot here, for everyone thinking it's always cold where I live. LOL. We are actually a land of extremes, because there are usually at least some days over 100 in summer, and many in the 90s, then down in the negative teens in the winter.


----------



## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

Nitrate poisoning is sometimes termed frothy bloat and it can kill quickly. http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/haygraintoxicity.html

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/forage/pubs/nitrate.htm


----------



## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

fmg said:


> I think linseed is the same as flaxseed, right? Here, where I live, I have located some, and it is way cheaper than rice bran. Actually, the rice bran is more expensive than BOSS here. You just have to look at what ingredient prices are for what you want them for, where you live; each area has different things available and at different prices. I talked to a nutritionist at the mill that does the flax, and they said that the least amount of time it would last is about a month, in the hottest part of summer, but it lasts much longer if the weather is cool. And it does get hot here, for everyone thinking it's always cold where I live. LOL. We are actually a land of extremes, because there are usually at least some days over 100 in summer, and many in the 90s, then down in the negative teens in the winter.


I would shop around on the rice bran I found some at tractor supply but it was 27.99 for 40 lbs. I thought forget it, then hubby was buying feed at our back-up feed mill, regular feed store was out of 1/2 the stuff we need for mix. He just happened to remember my interest and got a 50 lb bag for 15.99 and the girls are looking great with it. Of course I wonder how long it will last without going bad as 50 lbs is a TON of it.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Oh, trust me, I shop around. LOL. I just don't think rice bran is that popular around here. They don't grow rice here, so I guess, why would it be? The flax I get is ground up, and $18 per 50 lb bag, and flax has a higher fat content than rice bran (about 35% vs. 20%). Per % fat, the flax I get is $0.51, and if I was even able to locate rice bran for the price you get it at, that would be $0.80 per % fat. I guess I just lucked out. The mill I get it at always grumbles when I tell them I'm coming, because they usually sell it to big dairies where they are buying large quantities, so the workers hate selling it in bags to me. But, they have that option, so I just ignore them, get my stuff, and be on my merry way...just like when I go get pickup loads of beet pulp from another mill (for like $12 something per 100 lbs )...anything the workers aren't used to doing just messes with their heads. I don't care, I just pay the tab and go. Hehe.


----------



## FaithNJoyOberhasli (Apr 24, 2012)

Yeah, both linseed/flax and BOSS are cheaper here than rice bran (but all of it hurts!). I'm shopping around, too. I'm really looking forward to getting this figured out so I can quit thinking so much about it! :sigh

Michelle


----------



## lorit (May 10, 2010)

A couple more things to consider: our local mill is specializing in soy-free feeds and using camellina meal for the protein boost. My goats look great with it in the blend. I started with the "sondra" mix but have tweaked it to 3 parts oats, barley and field peas (lentils), and one part camellina meal. Dropped the corn altogether. If I think they need beet pulp in winter, I add my own on the milkstand. Same with boss. Those ingredients were lots of $$$ being used universally and not always needed. Otherwise they have access to a mixed browse pasture and eastern oregon alfalfa free choice. Onyx loose minerals. Water. Trying to keep it simple and consistent. I am very happy with body condition and milk production and growth.


----------



## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

That sounds like a wonderful mix! My has no soy, minimal corn and peanuts for protein. I might like yours better, but if I could find all components.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Feed mixes with BOSS, like Sondra's and our old Thurman's mix was also back when BOSS was really cheap! Vicki


----------



## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

If I took the BOSS out of my mix I would probably have a mutiny on my hands. Another thing I use rice bran and top dress rather then pellets not sure if that make a difference in $$. 12$ per 100 on beet pulp I am jealous. I think I use a recipe farily close to Sondra's 4 parts oats, 4 parts barley, 1 part BOSS, 1 part corn ( thinking of cutting this from summer grain) 1 Part beet pulp top dress with rice bran. Also have some cottonseed hulls that someone recommended but have not used them too much just a bit added to my mixing tub. Something with 2 or 3 squirts ( 1 squirt = 1 ounce) of wheat germ oil if I think the girls coats are getting rough or dull, not per goat for entire girl pen. My feed coop will not mix less then a ton so we were mixing by hand for a while until one day I was ogling a cement mixer and my oldest son said grandma has one in her shop. My grandmother had been trying to get me to go through and take anything I want to use out of the shop she was glad to give it to me we weight our feed and mix about a weeks worth at a time easy peasy with a mixer.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Nice, Kasi! My hubby was talking about renting a cement mixer and just mixing up like a year's supply of grain, so we aren't having to mix it all the time! LOL. Since I buy the barley from a farmer, and feed about half my grain in barley, I don't think it would make any sense for us to get it mixed somewhere for us. Plus, I obviously couldn't mix in a year's supply of the ground flax without it going bad. Whole flax will last almost indefinitely because of it's hard outer cover, but it is much easier for me to get it ground from the mill (I could get whole, but have to come on the day they get it in as they normally ground all of it). Besides, ground is supposedly better utilized.


----------



## feistymomma (May 20, 2009)

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. We actually just finished baling about 500 bales of clover hay, and have another 300 down to bale tomorrow. It is very hard to preverve correctly. It has to be dryer than dry to bale, but we have always had great luck with it, and my goats are loving it. My doe that is in milk is really kicking it in to gear since we introduced the clover hay.


----------

