# Unregistered Buck Question



## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

Can I register the kids of an AGDA registered DAM and an unregistered SIRE? both full Lamanchas, the sire is not registered though


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No, bucks must be registered purebred or American, before you breed them, to have registered kids. You really do not want to use unregistered bucks to upgrade with, both in your big girls and especially in your mini's. Vicki


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## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

i wasn't going to use him, but my daughter thought they needed to be together because they were crying for each other. i bout had heart failure. oh well. their babies will be beautiful and most likely great milkers, just not able to register them. i am the one you talked to about enhancing the blood like of the mini lamanchas. she is a full lamancha i was going to help create a new bloodline of 1st generation. i have to wait till next year for her. totally bummed


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## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

and Vickie, I told my husband yesterday not to come home from work until he had found a new home for the buck. lol - of course he forgot. so i gave him an extended grace period of a few days to rehome him. Culling the herd has been hardest on him.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Can't the kids be recorded as grade?


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Nope. But they can be registered Native on Appearance, as long as they conform to breed standard. They basically start at 0% but they can be shown.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I guess I don't understand the difference between NOA and grade. Can someone clarify that?


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

NOA means they have paperwork from ADGA and will appear on their daughters pedigree. Grade means they have no paperwork, but if they meet breed standards, they can be registered/recorded as American NOA for that breed.

If they are Nigerian, I don't think ADGA will record them, they only do purebred Nigerians. Unless of course that has changed.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Native on Appearance means it is an unregistered goat that conforms to breed standard. You have another ADGA member write a letter stating that the doe conforms to the breed standard and they record this doe for you. She then becomes a recorded grade. You then can breed her to a purebred or american buck and register her kids on the bucks information. As long as the kids continue to conform to breed standard they move from 50% to 75% to American of the breed, as long as you continue to breed to the same breed and the kids conform to breed standard. Vicki


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Ok, gotcha, so maybe the doelings of this breeding could be declared NOA, and recorded grade, *if* they turn out worth messing with. And she can get her a good purebred buck and go from there. But the bucklings will be of no real value for breeding stock.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Why choose to put unregistered bloodline into it? He has no lineage. NOA the dam and use a registered buck. Register the doe kids on their sire. Vicki


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## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

Vicki, what does AOP mean? sorry still learning the lingo. unfortuneately it wasn't a choice i would have made. it was an accident. i will have my buck looked at closely to see if he is show quality. after that, i will decide IF his offspring turn out stellar, whether or not to pursue NOA. 

Thank you everyone for the great information.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I think she's saying abort the kids? Some people on here do that if they don't like a breeding. I have no opinion on that. I was operating from the assumption the kids will be born, and you were planning what to do with them. I'm just getting started with purebreds myself. I won't be messing with grades through ADGA. I have my one grade doe that will never leave. I'll just sell her kids with IDGR papers like I always have. But the rest of my Nubian operation will be purebred only.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Native on Appearance Brenda. Sorry I missed that she was already bred....no I wouldn't abort, and there is no way of looking at a buck for show quality...and if that is your goal (and make sure all breedings at your farm, all kids kept and all animals purchased are actually taking you to your goal, be it milk or, pets or showing...or all of the above) than you really don't want to be using unregistered animals. Especially in your miniature LaMancha's, you want them to come out of the best production you can find. Vicki


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Just to muddy the waters on non-purebred or American LM bucks  This LM buck, from a very well known herd, is an experimental...don't ask me how! (I am not that into LM yet, but I assume it has something to do with the grading up process, I haven't asked Cindy yet.) There have been 3 others form that herd.

http://adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=E001499408


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## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

lawd have mercy, yall are awesome. thank you so much for the info. you have no idea how much it helps. ya, i will be able to sell them unregistered no problem i am sure. it's just waiting a year for my mini lamancha kids out of her is bumming me out. I have talked to my hubby again and told him to get serious about rehoming him or castrating him. and Vicki, you are so right - i need to stay focused on my goal and not start out this adventure to bring the best quality to our farm with unknown bloodlines. focus, focus, focus. lol - appreciate yall


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Put a reserve on a doeling from a really nice herd to replace the ones you'll plan to sell. I've greatly increased the quality of my herd that way. Sell a couple lower quality animals, use the money to buy something nicer. I remember when I started it felt like I'd never grow my numbers. Now I'm sending them packing without even a sigh.


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## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

ya Angie, i am trying to do that. not so easy when my husband gets super sad when i sell a goat. he is getting better, but we got way too emotionally attached. little by little i am culling the heard. some are going to family members, etc. I am looking for a stuper strong mini mancha buck right now. i have a great buck, he looks wonderful, but there is no verification other than oral that is dam had good confirmation and produced well. no picutres of any kind. i need a buck that will be ready to breed my girls next year. when this bunch is born, i should be able to tell if my buck is improving the herd or not. i am talking to a few ppl about does from out of state. i am hoping to get a few from this breeder. http://www.freewebs.com/creamcupminis/


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

That's weird, Michellle...I did not think bucks could be recorded experimental. Kids from a breeding where one parent is registered and the other is not, can be recorded 50% grade, regardless which parent was not registered.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I never realized bucks can be recorded experimental until I saw a few listed. I know before Sables became a recognized breed, the sable offspring was registered experimental, even the bucks. Maybe the LM bucks have some sort of characteristic that is not Lamancha standard so they registered him experimental? But then, why would you want to breed to him?


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

It's probably further back in his line. Like AGS LaMancha standard says/said elf ears can be 3 inches long, ADGA says only 2 inches. So a purebred AGS doe would be considered 100% LaMancha Experimental because of that extra 1/2 inch or so of ear. Because she IS purebred all of her offspring and her offsprings of spring, buck or doe is elegible to be registered. It takes 3 generations of proper ears to move back out of the EX herdbook into American on the doelings. The bucks never really move back up because all they can produce is experimental off spring.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

In the case of the Rockin-CB herd, I don't think the AGS theory would work. His sire is PB LM, dam is Experimental. She goes back to a PB Togg, a long line of Experimentals, but all crossed with PB or AM LM bucks. I can't remember if there was a picture of him the year she used him (all on ff), to see if his ears were correct, but LM buck ears are really picky, so why could he be registered if they weren't correct?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Michelle could you ask please, I would love to know. Any animal that is registered with a breed fault should have been sent into the recorded grade book, so if this was his dam or granddam, a buck out of this breeding could not be registered until he was going into the American book. The only buck who could be experimental, I thought before this was Sables while they were stuck in Recorded Grade all those decades. The AGS or CA would show up in the pedigree. Curiouser and curiouser......


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I am asking- I will let you know what I hear!


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

I know of one other though, besides Sables. My black Oberhasli buck is 100% Oberhasli Experimental.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

So what are his daughters when you breed him to a purebred Obie Jill?


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Okay...buckle your seat belts, passengers, because you are about to get a ride in the ADGA Guidebook that you never knew existed! The key is that the dam is not a grade, she is an experimental, but beyond that you are going to be amazed at what bucks can be registered...warning, if you are a purist, you might want to cover your ears!!

From the 2012 guidebook, Section VIII. RULES FOR REGISTRATION
AND RECORDATION



> G. RULES FOR ENTRY INTO EXPERIMENTAL REGISTRY
> 
> Experimentals are the product of the mating of registered American or Purebred parents of different breeds. The
> mating of the Purebred or American parents of the same breed, whose offspring do not meet breed standards, or the mating of Experimental animals may be entered in the Experimental Register.
> ...


Note that there is no exclusion of bucks from Section G, like there is in Section H. RULES FOR ENTRANCE INTO GRADE EXPERIMENTAL RECORD _(Females Only)_ (emphasis added by me)

So...I don't know why I had never noticed this section before. I am somewhat of a buff on grade registrations, NOA, NOP, grading up from experimental, blah, blah, blah, but I did not realize that experimental bucks can be registered- a great beneift to dairies that want to trace the lineage of their stock, including production records. All of the people with Snubian bucks that thought they couldn't be registered...not true, if they are the cross of two AM or PB registered goats! Since part of our herd goal is to breed dairy replacement stock with very strong milk and component numbers, this information has been very fascinating to me  though I am sure many would not be as thrilled as I am. BTW- Cindy didn't tell me all of that, she just pointed out that it was not a grade, and when I went to read again... :lightbubl


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> I know of one other though, besides Sables. My black Oberhasli buck is 100% Oberhasli Experimental.


I imagine a black Togg buck would be also... offspring should be experimentals, PB Nubian kids with really short ears at birth would be experimentals also :lol


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

So Michelle, same question when you use him, his kids are what out of your purebred does. Second question, why would you purchase a buck like this? Especially if he is maybe out of one or two sires...I mean that part is just rediculos that they even allow that now with DNA. 

Oh I forgot....OOOMMMMMMM "I do not care what ADGA does to it's registry" OOOMMMMMM "I am small potatoes now and it doesn't effect me" OOOMMMMM damn it isn't workig! Vicki


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

:rofl There is a different part that says that more than one sire is listed "until such time as DNA confirms the sire" at the beginning of the registration section that I think ties in here...

You have to understand that we have a PB Nubian herd, but a mostly grade LM herd. For me, in our LM grade program, if the dam/sire had awesome qualities I believed they would pass on, especially when aiming towards replacement stock for dairies, then I would use a buck like this. In the big, bad dairy sales world on this coast, it is about production and components with strong feet, legs, back & udder, not so much the breed unless it doesn't milk. The intentional grades that come out of UC Davis are stunning and milk like mad. The 'accidents' that come out of Redwood-Hills and the Tempo/des-Ruhigestelle herds are also spectacular...and dairies have been known to pay more for an 'accident' kid from one of these proven herds than most dairies will pay for a milker from an average herd.

I am a Nubian purist ;-) Though we will have AM Nubian kids born here next year, but I do like the playing you can do with grades...anyone that is a LM purist, with an open herdbook...well, they may need to take vallium


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

poor Vicki..
I actually don't have any Oberhasli does anymore. Couldn't deal with their issues. I kept back my Alpine/Nubian does, the best milkers, and bought an American Alpine buckling and a Purebred Nubian buckling (with long proper ears). I did use the black to see if the Obers were going to worth keeping. I didn't register the off spring though.

Now I know where all thoses short eared reg. Nubians come from on Craigslist.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> Now I know where all thoses short eared reg. Nubians come from on Craigslist.


Only if they are registered as experimentals...


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I read that section a long time ago but for some reason really didn't think it applied to your run of the mill cross breeds. At the time I was just brushing up on recording and such for the Nuberhasli kids I had. For some reason my brain just didn't comprehend that it meant experimental bucks. 

Wow. OOOOMMMMMMMOOOOOOMMMMMMMOOOOOMMMMMMM Why? Doesn't that sort of defeat the upgrading process of recording up to American? But what Michelle said makes a lot of sense too. Lately I have been doing a lot of crossbreeding with my Nubains and LM because I couldn't find a nice LM buck last year. Got a crop of nice potential doelings. But, the bucks all went to freezer camp and the ears are hysterical. Time will tell. I guess it has it's uses as a tool for those that aren't hard core purebred people.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Don't know about the Black Ober bucks, but I have a nice black Obie doe who throws bay kids, never had a black kid. However, a buck would probably have higher odds of throwing black kids just because he would be used more than a doe.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We all know from Tracy just how much they are paying for dairy milkers, not even their hay bill for the year. Most are selling their culls they can't show, so it is not as if there is a booming industry for cross breds....so first should be breedings for the betterment of the breed, then sell the culls, which we all have....big beautiful does with excellent conformation who end up with udders without enough points on the score card. But I could see how showing recorded grade, especially for children, is a bonus.


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## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

The issue with the buck I have is that he is not a cross. just doesn't come with papers. i don't think the church group (can not remember who they were) cared about that. they just wanted the milk. he has goffer ears and his parents looked stunning. reading this makes me go back and forth on getting him registered as NOA. the picture i have of him stinks. i need a few new ones. If I can get some picts of him next week, can I get some emails and opinions? thanks. This guy is a show stopper, he pretty much gets all the ooooooos and ahhhhhhhhs when ppl visit our ranch (not goaties so all they can see is a handsome guy, not confirmation)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You can't record him NOA. The bucks in the above conversations are experimentals, out of pedigreed animals, you have no pedigree on this buck to submit. I would not use a gopher eared buck....stunning....have a photo of that udder on his dam? There are just so many really nice LaMancha bucks around, who are registered with high production, GCH, high appraisal scores, I just hate seeing you start like this, shame on the person who is giving you this really poor advice. You are raising nearly free goats, it is to expensive to feed these critters anymore not to make your costs back each year and some profit off selling your kid crop, and you can't do either using unregistered animals.

Have you pulled blood on all these goats and ran blood tests yourself for CAE? Vicki


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> I would not use a gopher eared buck


 I think you meant elf ears...

Unfortunately an unregistered buck isn't going to help your circumstance, Brenda.

All I know is what dairies are paying in CA, not the rest of the country, and when dairies are paying $400 for a 5 month old LM/Saanen cross kid, I am going to pay attention! Most commercial operations do not care about PB stock, they care about milk/components...the PB commercial dairies/creameries are not the standard, they are the rarity. It is extremely hard to show a doe to a championship in CA, even in the grade classes, so it isn't much of a benefit in the show world, child or not. For us- I figure that since we have experimentals already we might as well make them as nice as possible...I wouldn't recommend anyone go out and do it without a purpose!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep got my ears confused  Thanks Michelle.

Tracy and the group around her sell milkers into the California dairies, believe me those are not the prices they get. Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Tracy just told me that they usually pay $250-$300 for a milker. Someone from CA is looking for breeding age doelings up to 5/6 year olds to pick up at ADGA convention, and they told me that they have paid $125-$500 depending on confirmation, age, production, and genetics.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

That's more realistic Nancy...$125 would be an unbred doe or bred young doe (here she would be in horrific condition or in a very large group). None are prices anybody could make money off of. It's why dairies in our area go out of state, with gas it's cheaper to buy north than local, there isn't a good milker going into a dairy for less than $400 around me. To bad everyone so devalues their stock and the money they have in their goats, and simply stop this low balling of their animals. In the end you are doing this for free at those prices.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Up here you're lucky to get 200.00 for a registered milker, prices stink here.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Yep, prices are terrible here too. I don't get it though, because people will pay $1200 at the lowest for a jersey cow, but a goat that makes about 1/3 of what that cow is producing is only worth 1/5 of the price at most? It doesn't really make sense. And also, a goat is going to give you that milk for way less feed, not destroy your property, and is easier to handle.


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## funnyfarmtexas.com (Oct 3, 2012)

ok, i finally think i understand. thank you so much. Vicki, I did CAE test him. Came back clear. I bought him before I knew what i was doing (not that I do now). And unfortuneately my my daughter (not knowing any better) put him with my lamancha doe. By the end of the week, he will be gone.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

There are a lot of dairies in CA- lots of variation in price I am sure! I find that when it is a person from the goat world that is doing the buying for a dairy- they know which herds/bloodlines they want stock from. Yearling milker Saanens were fetching $400 each also, but the owner was hauling them to the dairy, so less hauling cost. I hooked up a customer selling out this year with a dairy- she got $250 each for milkers and the dairy paid to haul them. I find that the further they have to haul them in, the less they want to pay, which just makes sense if you are a dairyman.

Most dairies could care less about papers, they don't register their stock, and many people around here sell them tot he dairies without papers anyway, they are removing them fromt he gene pool. They want milk. They will pay more for animals from a herd that they have gotten quality/consistent animals from in the past. Some of them in CA now are paying more for tested animals, since they are moving to CAE/CL negative focus. Again- those are goat people with dairies. Smart marketing is breeding your young stock to freshen in the fall/winter, when both home and dairy milkers, just fresh, will bring in more money.



> To bad everyone so devalues their stock and the money they have in their goats, and simply stop this low balling of their animals.


 :handclap

That is so true! But when I look at the feed prices in the South right now, almost $200 difference per ton of feed...we all have different input costs, too. I have cheaper feed, I almost never have to deworm because of my climate...it costs me less to raise a goat than it does someone in TX, so my stock can be sold for less without me losing money.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The sale of a yearling milker for $250 can only be offset by the price you can get for her kids she has, because you have more in her than $250. Why, this is only a game for those who use diaries to cull out udders that won't fit into their show string. Out of business sales also. This is not a viable income maker or goal for a business. The condition you would have does in by trying to make a profit off of them as they freshen, without papers, without DHIR etc....the dairies would then not take them. Grade or non papered does kids simply don't fetch enough money to supplement the loss of monies made of the yearling milker. Registered stock sales can, especially in Nubian's or high end swiss breeds in show homes. The buyers don't care about papers (which only translates they want to purchase for $100 less) but they have lists of those who they purchase from who are ADGA members, who participate in DHIR and want their cull milkers.

A $500 sale of a doe into a dairy or the spare buck at that price...is not repeat sale anyone can count on.

My point is not to be debby downer, but to say, use the dairies as tools to cull your goats, but don't breed animals in the hopes of making money doing so......saanen breeders in my area tried this and lost their butts.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I can see in your area that it definitely not work, considering the price of everything there. $250 for a year on a doe would cover her costs here, but hay and feed are much cheaper, and I have pasture and browse. A dry-lotted goat probably would need more than that, too. Then the kids would be extra profit. I do agree though, selling into dairies is better left as a place to cull goats that are fine otherwise, just don't do what you want exactly, or if you need to suddenly cut numbers, not for regular sales. Lucky for me, I sell my milk & cheese, so have other ways for a doe to earn her keep.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

The buck that Michelle listed is experimental because a few generations back there was a togg in the lineage. With Lamancha herd book being open, things are a little different than with other breeds.


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