# CAE...living with testing negligence.



## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

CAE, Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis, easily detected by pulling blood OR testing colostrum.

I am here to plead with those who are just getting into goats or those who feel its to expensive. I would also like to hear from others who are living with testing negligence. There I said it....we were negligent goat owners and we live with it everyday in our goat yards. And it is all preventable.

Let me start at the beginning...

I raised goats in Wyoming in the 80's when I was a kid. Loved the creatures! Then I grew up, got married, had a kid and she needed something more in her life. So we joined her up in 4-H and she was donated two does. They were fine to learn on and all but not the greatest of animals. We never got them tested. Linds purchased what we felt was a nice cross bred, turned out to be a hermaphrodite so the breeder exchange her for a new doe. We were really trying to concentrate on hay,feed, de-wormers, and minerals. The basics. Dh was funding the goats at that time and there was no money leftover. By the time we got to pulling blood Lindsey's new doe had already been bred and freshened. She came back positive. By this time colostrum had already been heat treated (*not enough, don't use it*) and her kids received the colostrum. We ate her. One of her kids wasn't a big deal he was a wether that went to a nice hungry family However the doeling was tainted. We wound up with a very positive doe, 80 on her titer, twice. Yeah...I know...I shoulda, coulda, woulda, and not kept or bred this doe but I just had to know if the breeding fixed an udder, it did, plus alot of other things. This CAE doe is...Delaney. 
















This pic was taken right before milking time and she is full.
She is non-symptomatic at this point.
Her udder milks all the way out, she's never been congested, kidded with no problems, no retained afterbirth, and cleaned up nicely and timely on her lochia. So far her knees are okay but in awhile they will start to look CAE. After I am collecting her milk for soap she will either be sold to a lady in the woods who wants her for milk and meat or we will eat her ourselves.
Now here is where it all goes wacky. When she kidded we had no colostrum, couldn't use it. Those boys may have problems later on in life. I had to be open and totally honest with the folks buying them about that. My conscience cannot allow me to lie or falsify any thing. She is milked with her own equipment, milk is stored separtely, everything is done separately. All of her equipment is marked "CAE ONLY", what a bummer. That is so our 4-H girl doesn't mistakenly use DeeDee's equipment, although everything is cleaned with Nolvasan (not valbasan! HA). Her milk is pasturized to 180, I do it myself and I use three, yes, three thermometers. Once it has been pasturized I don't care if the wethers get the milk. 
This is not a "O woe is me" thread. It is a "learn from me" thread. We will soon have a clean herd but forever have CAE in our history. Just me getting on here and being open with all of you can ruin what we have going on here. Everyone will be shy about looking at our website now. And ALL our animals are tested twice a year. 
So this is for folks who think testing can wait. It will save you money and time in the long run to purchase from known negative herds. Test your animals, please. I truly wish I could back up time, go back two years and tell the breeder "no thanks, but thanks the same". I can't do that. Don't leave the window open so you have to mop up the mess. 
Tam


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Thank you so much for this warning. I think very highly of you for this.


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## HeidiEllsworth (May 28, 2009)

Thank you so much. We know two people who have CAE in their herds, and they do nothing about it. Sometimes they criticize us for being so picky about keeping our herd clean, saying that it's unrealistic. Thanks for encouraging us to keep up the fight!


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## BrokenHalterFarm (Feb 16, 2010)

Being all my goats are rescues I can honestly say theres nothing more annoying about goat health then CAE.
Almost every goat here has it , most arent obviously carriers but theres a few you can see it in.
Its a ridiculous disease because it is entirely preventable.


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## goatnewbie (Jun 18, 2008)

As someone who has only had goats 2 years, I thank you for your honesty. When I was looking for goats it was amazing how many people would blow me off when I asked if they tested for CAE or CL. Of course I would only buy from herds who had tested. This just makes me realize the importance of testing and keeping my herd clean. I appreciate your honesty.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2010)

Well said Tammy... I agree testing is the most important thing.. and responsible..
Barb


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I wish more folks would step up like this Tammy. Most new folks I know have purchased stock from breeders who either didn't bother teaching them about CAE or they knowingly sold them stock that was positive. They also talk a good talk about CAE and then don't or won't show CAE negative tests on the herd if asked. It's unconscionable to sell diseased stock, doubly so to 4H kids. I hope more tell their stories. Mine is the normal, we had CAE before there was even good testing for it, as did most, including a lot of those who say on their websites or on yahoogroups that they never have had CAE 

In the lala land I live in there will be a way of getting to folks before they purchase their first stock. Having to be a forum where we have to tell new folks to test for the first time after they purchase and fall in love with their goats, is a horrible feeling, because we all know that some or all of their goats will test positive. Vicki


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## mrs.h (Feb 1, 2010)

Of course this is too late, but my Milkyway has a vet appt. on 
Wed. Shes getting tested for CAE and CL and a couple other things too. When I bought her I didn't realize........ :sigh


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Totally agree Tammy, I'm still fighting it. Mostly because I haven't been willing to just cut and run and lose the genetics I have now. If I'd only started with a clean herd...life would be a lot easier.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Well and to boot Delaney is the dream doe with manners. She's just the nicest gal on the stand. Kicks her leg back and stands there for me. Walks for me doesn't run. Just the most absolute in demeanor. I can't keep her and I love her :sniffle cause she's such a good girl. But I know what will happen. I'll want to breed her and see where I could go with that line. I'll make a mistake somewhere and whalah another CAE goat. Uh-uh. Nope for now it is prevention prevention prevention and then cull. I need soap milk so this works out for now. Tam


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Bravo for you, Tammy! You know I wouldn't hesitate to buy a doeling from you, either! 

I have had one animal (from an outside herd) test positive. The animal was quarantined, the breeder accepted the animal back, all handled exceptionally well/professionally. I am always honest about my herd's CAE status & policies, and am big on education...several herds in my area are now tested because of my 'bossy' spread of knowledge  Another note to people- selling a CAE+ animal at auction isn't any more responsible than selling it privately. Be a grown up and cull the animal by eating it yourself, giving/selling it to someone that will eat it, or selling it directly to a slaughter house. The only way problems like CAE/CL will stop is if people go all the way in managing them, not shuffling them off to be someone else's problem at a sale.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Oh Tammy! How heartbreaking! I had no idea! I applaud you for having the chutzpah to tell everyone. People can hear over and over and over, "You need to test" but the lesson doesn't really hit home until you see in real terms just why that is.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Another icing to the cake; October '09' DOG ATTACK. Did I know then...yes, right after the attack :down. Tests had just been sent into Biotracking. Delaney is one of the survivors and so is Gwendlyn. Gwen's titer has remained at 13 :whew, but she will keep getting tested. Those foul demons were at our Gwenies throat when I found them and Delaney was already down. So imagine the horror going through my head the whole time. When Gwens test came back at 13 I was SOOOO relieved. She will stay on my suspect list for years to come. Tam


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## MiaBella Farm (Jul 22, 2008)

This is one of the first things I talk about to people who buy from me and encourage them to ask about it when purchasing from other herds. I have all my test results and offer a copy of those results with the registration paperwork.

We considered buying our LaManchas from a herd in Kentucky. The breeder refused to do CAE and CL tests. We would have paid for it, but she did not even want to take the time...so she did not get our business.

Kudos Tammy!


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

I lose a number of sales because I am honest about our herd's status. After 9 years of owning goats I learned about CAE and tested when we had our first suspect...a 9 year old doe. She went down at the end of her pregnancy and couldn't stand. Even after delivering her triplets. Hard udder, everything.
Of our five original animals, it appears at least three of them were likely positive. We had been growing from that base herd and dam raising for 7 years (we had a few years when outside breedings did not work and one year we did not have a buck).
We tested 26 animals that first year after the original positive and her daughter. We kept the first positive and made her comfortable until she died that Summer. Most of the does we had still tested negative despite being dam raised on does who were likely positive (we didn't have any of the original five at that point, only daughters, granddaughters, etc). I think we had 5 positives that first test and 2 of them were animals I had just brought home. We didn't test some of the stock since they were the offspring. Some are simply assumed positive due to the dam lines, but I still have does, years later, who continue to test negative despite being dam raised on does that ended up testing positive.
We have a 9 year old positive doe. Absolutely no signs that I can tell. Soft, productive udder. She is on the Matriarchs page of our site. Snow White. The daughter of our first goat. Her daughters have tested negative when they were tested. 
Kait, who may or may not be still on that page, tested negative her first year here and then postive the next year. We lost her this Fall at 11 years old. Her breeder didn't know about CAE either but hand raised the kids. 
With the numbers of does we had, the fact nobody I knew of in the area tested (it took a bit for the vet's office to figure out how to go about testing) or cared, and that we were attached to our herd, we made the decision to simply deal with it and be up front about it. We did not have the funds to simply start over at that point. 
I had ended up buying more positives without testing. Came home from a trip with a positive Saanen doe. Turns out they tested after I bought the doe and her wether. Had a few positives in the herd. I bought a Boer buck kid "raised on CAE Prevention." One of only four symptomatic animals we have had. His arthitis was exacerbated by the fact he was attacked by a pack of dogs and had his rear tendons tore out. I had three kid crops from him and some very nice kids before it became too much for him to handle. This was after we were told he would never walk again.
The sad thing is I bought a doe later, after I knew I should be testing before buying...and I didn't. She was test negative for CL, but the herd had not yet tested for CAE (they since have and are now almost free of the disease). I still have her and wonder each year if this will be the last. Her previous owner has offered to kill her if it gets to that point rather than see her sent to the Auction barn we ship our culls to. It is in the same town as the slaughter house and the majority go direct to slaughter from there. It is where we have sent our past CAE does that needed culled.
Rather than risk improperly heat treating colostrum from does that may have tested negative for now but have turned positive, we use cow's colsotrum and cow's milk for our Prevention. This is from our herd of cows.
I sell Prevention raised doelings when at all possible and educate about CAE when I do sales. Even if someone decides not to buy from us because we have CAE in the herd still, they at least are aware enough to ask about it in the future.
I have sold the base of two herds locally. Both are with Prevention raised kids. It's so nice to be able to see new owners not have to worry about being there and pulling kids at birth. Most of the births are missed and they don't have that worry I deal with each season.
It makes it worth it.

This is also one reason I don't post animals for sale here. I know, with my positives, that people are not likely to buy from me because they know to ask for full herd negatives...which I cannot provide. 
So I work locally, trying to educate as I sell. I take a hit in price...A huge hit actually, but if I can set up people with goats that are clean and healthy, and provide follow up care, maybe I'm not such a bad person after all for maintaining some positive, non-symptomatic does.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Thank You Roseanna. And all the others for coming on here. It is daunting to sit here and write our doom out for all to see. I'm like you though Roseanna, education. Its the key to controlling and eradicating disease. And rather than go into "FREAKOUT" mode when you do find a positive, figure out where it came from and take responsibility. 

Now I have planned for the Asotin County Fair a CAE education display. Yes DeeDee is involved. The 4-H leader wants to raise more awareness in our community. Am I freaked? A little. But I am taking care of her and doing the actual work. Lindsey will be giving advice to folks who ask questions afterwards. Will it be worth the work, OH YEAH! You see when you can isolate the animal from the rest and give a good presentation to folks in your area your bound to influence one or more herds in your area. We are hoping anyway. Nothing like the real thing to make people see.
Tam


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## Candy (Jun 4, 2009)

Well, I sit here feeling sick...

WE have only had goats a couple of years and have yet to test any. I only recently learned of CAE but didn't think enough about it. I finally decided we needed to start testing but still haven't and have recently brought in new stock and let them nurse our does. I have a really bad feeling about this. 

So if you can't depend on heat treating colostrum, how do you raise babies? I just feel like giving up.....


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

When heat treating is done properly, it works. There are numerous herds around to prove this. When at all possible, heat treating colostrum from test negative does is even better, but you work with what you have available and make the best of it.
I have another option that makes me feel safer, so I utilize it. I have colostrum frozen from test negative does. If I got into a pinch I would turn to heat treating colostrum from my own herd before I would turn to bagged colostrum, that other herds have used.
Sometimes you dodge a bullet.
Considering how most of our herd came to be here, it is amazing that I have yet to have CL. One of our original five was a stray from the local sale barn. Another (my line) was purchased through the sale barn by my neighbors.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Of course you can depend on heat treating colostrum. Me and all my cohorts in goats, we learned about CAE together, I don't know one herd who didn't have it, some faught it for a very long time. I was much more anal about it than most and did horrific things like lutelysing my whole group to kid during the week when I was home, superglueing teats so that no way could a kid nurse period, and culling whole litters because I missed the kidding and the doe didn't get put in the maternity pen and could possibly (the kids) have nursed another doe in the barn. If heat treating colostrum didn't work I would not be negative. Soon with CAE negative kids of my own having babies, yes I did stop heat treating colostrum and pasteurising milk from positive does. And yes kids at birth until they are over a year old will test borderline or positive when receiving heat treated positive colostrum but the positive is short lived. We have never had nor seen nor tested a doe who converted when older.

And Michelle and Troy being as anal about all this as me with PCR tests also, is the reason I refer folks to them, over the old guard with nubians who I know don't test and dam raise and aren't there for kiddings. 

Vicki


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Remember also that for every person that says they don't test, don't care, there are many responsible breeders out there that do test, do attend births, do pull at birth and raise on prevention, and ARE honest about it! I have bought animals from herds with positive animals that the breeders have honesty & integrity, I know how htey raise their kids, the steps they take, and those animals are all still negative. It can be done! But never take your prevention precautioons for granted! Always have a plan and a person (an adult!) responsible for carrying the plan out.


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

But its not expensive! At least I don't think so. $4 or so now at biotracking to test..how easy is that. I was lucky to learn about CAE right at the beginning of my goat experience, but really it doesn't scare me much. It is CL that has me shaking in my boots really =) I have bought from breeders who have CAE positive does in their herd. I just like to see that they are annually testing, keeping tabs on it actively preventing further spread. But then I have a pretty laid back personality =)


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

A few months ago I would've (and had) said CAE prevention is simple...isolate your kids for at least 6 months, pasteurize and heat treat and you should be good. I have had 1 positive doe for 5 years now, she runs with my herd and always had. I had never had it spread up til this spring...suddenly I've got a buck, another milker, and a kid turn up positive (which is 1/2 my herd).

That's it for me...I am no longer going to straddle the line. I'm getting out of the CAE business and if I stick to my guns...all my positives will be culled this year. My goats are nice, and I like the genetics I have but lets face it, there are better goats out there than mine and lots that are just as good. I would rather replace them with healthy animals.

I am also really hoping for doe kids out of each doe, I've already gotten twin doelings out of the nicest one. That was my "sign" to go ahead and get rid of them all.


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

I still have 2 positive does and 1 positive buck, in my herd they will be taking the short cull road (butcher) as soon as they kid. I willo be investing in superglue stock soon and if I miss the birth the doelings will be going into a meat pen the bucks automatically go there, however I hope to have cameras installed by then. My 2 positives were bought before I knew better, found out before the one kidded last year, and spent a lot of time with her during her possible kidding time which was 45 days as she had been pen bred, she went on the 2nd to last possible day. I superglued her teats 3 times a day for the last month, probably overdid it a little but I wanted those teats locked up like fort know!! The evening she gave birth there were no overt signs, she had a good bag for a week no ligaments for the last 3 days, just her acting a little different from normal ( this is where it pays to know your animals) I told hubbie I was gonna spend some time with her went in got a pop and a book got settled into the stall with her and within 30 minutes the goo with baby immediately afterwards. Her doeling has been tested twice now once with the herd and once just a month ago and is testing negative. Many around here that know of CAE and have it in their herd (even if their website says different) think I overdo it to have them as seperate as I do with EVERYTHING seperate milkstands, milk buckets, milk containers etc. they have a single fenceline that has seen better days sepoerating the +s from the -s and sperate the kids however I have seen a kid get there head through the fence so I will never purchase from them. Hard lesson learned as these are the last 2 of the first goats we bought and my kids are very attached to one of them however my kids are true farm kids and understand the suffering vs. putting down and know that putting down a sick animal that we can not do anything for is best.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Kasi I do not have the luxury of two milkstands. So I have to sanitize every single time I milk. The whole stand gets sprayed down with Nolvasan (full strength) and is washed up with bleach water then rinsed with hot water. This is why its more work for me. I'm just glad she's a very nice doe on the stand 

I do have to agree with those who are talking about positive/negative herds that are open about CAE. I know of a couple, they are very open with me and have been great mentors in my prevention program. And I would purchase from them in the future because I have faith in them and their herd. Its the herds I haven't dealt with and trust that are going to get the "mandatory CAE testing" degree from me.

I did not use colostrum this year because of me. I heat treated Delaneys colostrum however its is very apparent I did something wrong. I won't allow another mistake to new kids with colostrum from a positive doe. I am being smart this year a setting back colostrum from the negative does for next year. The colostrum from last year, since I'm being honest and please don't laugh, accidentally wound up in soap :/. Some people huh? I know a duh moment of not looking at the bag before I pulled it. Okay you can giggle now :blush2.
Tam


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

I bet that soap was super moisturizing!!!!


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## goatnewbie (Jun 18, 2008)

At what age can you test your kids? And to what lab do most of you send to? When I had my does tested last year (by my vet) he charged $50 a piece and told me that they had to be 6 months old or it wouldn't read properly. I know he way overcharged me but is the age correct? Thanks,


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You can test any age. But like everything you have to know what the test results mean. A kid who tests positive...it could mean the person heat treated colostrum from a positive doe or the kid nursed from a positive doe. If the kid received colostrum that was heat treated from a positive doe than the kid will go back to negative, although usually has a higher titer. Kid number two will always test positive, although with some tests with their numbers so low and them only telling you positive, borderline or negative, the kid can test borderline or very high negative, until their first stress of moving or kidding or rut...then you have what you have as yearlings. Vicki


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## goatnewbie (Jun 18, 2008)

Last year I had my vet draw blood on my does and send it out. He charged me $50 a peice and I had to haul them to him. He told me that I couldn't test my kids until they were at least 6 months old. Where do most of you send your blood work to? Where can you get the vials? And how old can you test at? Thanks.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Learn to pull blood yourself, it is so easy in goatkeeping 101 we have the webpage of a little girl who shows you how  You can get the tubes from your vet, or valley vet and I use biotracking.com I pull blood in the fall and send in for both CAE and seeing if they are bred at the same time. Read my post above for ages. Vicki


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## sherrie (Jul 22, 2008)

I am very new with dairy goat (almost 2 years) and when we (my friend and I) decided to get nubians we found 2 herds that had doelings. 2 sets of twins from two different herds. We did not get any info about CAE. When we finally found out and tested the does -one set of twins was negative and the other set of twins was positive. We sent the positive does back to their original owner. None of those does were old enough to breed, so we never had kids from the positive does. Neither of us has every had dairy goats on our property before these nubians. Everything now has been tested negative - including the wethers. At what point can you dam raise the kids? Can a positive kid come from a negative doe? These will be our first kids - in late April.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

For myself, if you test each year, and once your raise kids yourself, you catch them, you heat treat the colostrum and pasteurise the milk from birth, you not someone else or your kids so no mistakes are made, you know they didn't nurse mom, they will be the first goats on your place that you know are 100% negative. Let them dam raise. Will it hurt sales, yes. Most won't buy from those who let kids nurse if they are on a CAE prevention program at their own farm, it would take years of good reputation to be able to do that. So if you know up front that you will lose sales from this, than you can make a wise choice. Your story is the most common story. Vicki


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

And so today I get my first rejection of sale. Because I'm honest A negative doe that is going to milk an ocean and no sale because we have one doe positive. Oh well, she'll sell some other time I guess. We have to make room for the girls from Tracy, how am I gonna do that if no one wants to buy because of this? Geez I guess we'll wind up eating all we can't sell, milker or not, until this CAE is gone.

:mad CURSE YOU AQUASCUM! :mad
Tam


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Sorry to hear that Tammy.

I can honestly say I've never lost a sale because I have CAE in my herd...and yes I also make it a point to tell folks that I test and have one positive doe, and she runs with the herd.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm sorry, Tam! It seems with CAE that you either get a total lack of knowledge, or outright panic without understanding how testing works, or how the virus works.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

I have question, if a doe tests neg, why do we heat treat the colostrum and milk? I can see why with a positive doe, but why a negative doe?


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## deJardine (Apr 29, 2009)

Oat Bucket Nubians said:


> I have question, if a doe tests neg, why do we heat treat the colostrum and milk? I can see why with a positive doe, but why a negative doe?


I am also interested in this question - is this just to say "such and such" has been raised on CAE prevention or is this honestly a necessary step in a CAE free herd? Also, does this same answer apply to a closed herd who has only brought in CAE free stock?


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I always pasteurize any pooled milk I feed from my negative does because if just one doe were ever to sero convert, I'd ruin a whole crop of kids. Not worth the risk. I have a friend who has tested negative for 18 years and will furnish the proof. She lets her does all dam raise and doesn't heat treat the colostrum she freezes. She's the only one I'd trust getting colostrum from in a pinch. I totally trust getting goats from her, but there's just one prpblem, they are wild. Raphael lives with a lead rope attached to his collar during breeding season so I can get him easily.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

YEs, I purchased 4 does from a wonderful woman and was called back by her about a month later with a regretful notification that her herd had tested positive for CAE. She found herself in your position, thinking the animals she purchased were clean and finding out the hard way that they weren't. Thankfully she did not want to pass this problem around and offered to refund my money and take them back. My kids and I were pretty attached at that point, but I decided it was best to take her up on her offer. We then purchased a new pregnant doe and wether from a herd that had been tested. We now have 2 CAE neg does, wether and buck and never do they leave our property and we dont plan to get anymore. After realizing how,yes, this disease is possible and often undetectable without testing I would nevr purchase another goat that had not been tested. I found a really beautiful goat at the state fair from a breeder in VA and would have loved to have her, but that woman couldn't show me the test results and only tested one or two animals out of her whole emormous operation, I said no way, bummer but you have to wait for the perfect situation to be sure you are going to get a healthy animal as guaranteed as you can possibly ask for. I am so thankful that I ran into the woman I purchased my orginal animals from, that she was so honest and forthright. We are still friends and she has been a great mentor for me.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Beth,
I hope you don't mind my asking, but I am curious as to the relationship between the one positive doe and the others that just came up positive this year. (Trying to understand this disease better.) Do you think that they got it from her or from another source and why? How old are they? Etc. Thanks.


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

No, I don't mind your asking. I hope nobody else gets stuck with this!! 

The original positive doe was purchased as one of a pair of milking yearlings. They are/were the foundation of my herd, beautiful does but unfortunately both positive for CAE. The other doe was culled as a 2 yr old after kidding with triplet does...she tested borderline positive for Johne's disease but looking back I very strongly doubt that the test was accurate....kick myself to this day for not retesting her. Anyway, I kept one of those triplet does...Princess is now 4 yrs old and tested positive for the first time this spring. Her daughter from last year also tested positive. Also a buck that I bought from a clean herd, tested neg. as a kid but now as a yearling is positive. 

Princess herself was raised on positive pastuerized milk...but with my system it's possible there was a mixup between fresh/pastuerized milk. I can't remember from 4 yrs back though. Also, Poppie, the original doe I still have, leaks milk something awful. Really stupid of me to keep her with the others all these years...considering if one of the other does got into the puddle she left behind. Not to mention that they do occasionally fight bad enough to make their heads bleed...cross-contamination that way? 

I am fairly sure the doeling got it through colostrum not heat-treated properly. The buck...I don't know...I did lend him out for the summer to another herd with a few CAE positive animals. Did he get it there or here? I don't have any other goats from the kid batch he was raised with...maybe a pastuerizing glitch? Princess....could be from getting into Poppie's milk, bashing heads, sharing water/feed, or having had infected milk as a kid and just now showing up...which I really doubt the latter.

Like I said before, I never had it spread before this point. This is enough to make me quit trying to juggle this...yes they are nice goats (LA'd 90-91) but there are lots of nice healthy goats, and Princess had twin doelings this year...being raised on store milk because I don't trust myself. The buck, again, I am so happy with my doeling out of him (also pos.) I would love to keep using him, but he's not one of a kind either. 

In the last few years, I've had other positive goats on my place, all were culled because they just weren't nice enough to deal with. So I can't guarantee they all got it from Poppie...but with her leaking so much, it makes me wonder. 

Poppie is being culled this weekend, she's been induced and should kid tonight. I am obviously really hoping for a doe kid out of her...but either way she's got to go this year. Along with the buck. Princess and her kid are staying until appraisal time and then also getting culled.

This is really long...sorry. I got these does along with the old "CAE never killed a goat" and such, this herd does well nationally and it's really frustrating that they don't work a little harder on their herd health. Because of their show reputation, they sell a lot of animals for good money anyway. And if you go look at their herd....funny, they have no does over about 5yrs old. All of their senior does are finished champions...so why would they cull them so quickly if not for health reasons? Sad.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Beth, 
don't be sorry for it being long; I really, really appreciate your taking the time to write all that out and explain everything. Very helpful. Thank you so much.


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