# Mouth problem...



## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

:help O.k. I'm a little stumped here. :help2 I have an almost 4 year old doe who is having some issues with her mouth. She is due in March. 

I noticed on Friday that she seemed a bit 'off'. She wasn't up at the manger eating with everyone else and just didn't seem quite right. I offered her some hay and she nibbled on it, but acted like it hurt her to eat. I took a look in her mouth as I thought maybe she hurt a tooth or something. Her right lip also looked a little swollen. Everything looked o.k. in her mouth. Her lip was a little thick, but not bad. I was amazed at how sharp and dirty looking her teeth were, so I looked at another goat. They looked the same, so I think I just haven't looked that far back in a goats mouth before. I know my fingers have discovered how sharp they are! :/

Anyway, Saturday, her tongue was sticking just a little ways out of her mouth - more like she just had it between her lips on the right side. Not hanging or anything, but not all the way in her mouth like it should be. Her cheek along her teeth was puffed out a bit as well. She was separated from the rest of the herd at this point.

Sunday: I took another look in her mouth (this time with a flashlight) and saw some *stuff* stuck in her cheek and between the upper and lower teeth on her right side (I think this is what made her cheek look puffy the day before as it wasn't puffed out after I took the stuff out). It is very strange 'stuff' it looks like possibly cud and something else - kind of a greyish/greenish/brownish. There was also some in her front teeth - looks like she needs to brush her teeth. It looks similar to what I have seen in goats with sore mouth. Only she doesn't have any sores like that on her mouth, just a little swelling and that gross looking 'stuff'. I did pry her mouth open and pull all that **** out. She did NOT like that!

I am just wondering if any of you have seen something like this and know what it is. Thanks!


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Sounds like she has facial paralysis. Could have taken a blow to her head and face from fighting. It usually goes away with time, but you will need to help her keep the cud out of her cheeks.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

If it is a facial paralysis like Janie mentioned give her some B12 works wonders on Bells Palsey in humans and sure won't hurt the doe.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:/ I would be concerned with the beginnings of Listeriosis. The lip, then the tounge.? Next will be the ear...well, unless it's a Nubian.

Go to Goats 101 and look up updated version of Listeriosis.
Kaye


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks Kaye, Janie and Sondra.

Kaye, I couldn't seem to find it on Goats 101?

I did an internet search and came up with these symptoms for Listeriosis:
Depression, decreased appetite, fever, leaning or stumbling or moving in one direction only, head pulled to flank with rigid neck, facial paralysis on one side, slack jaw, and drooling, abortions. 

She does not seem depressed, isn't stumbling or moving in one direction only, doesn't have her head pulled to flank, hasn't aborted. She does have a decreased appetite but that can be caused by lots of things. She hasn't been drooling a lot, but there was a little this morning. The only real symptoms that match are the facial paralysis on one side (and this isn't complete - she can still blink and open her mouth etc), and possibly the slack jaw. She isn't hanging her mouth open, the lip is just limp on that side. I'll check her temp. Don't know why I didn't do that yet (where is the hit your hand on your forehead smiley?!).

The other thing is that "In most cases, both of these diseases (goat polio and Listeriosis) are seen in goats raised under intensive management conditions. Improper feeding, particularly feeding too much grain and too little roughage, is a significant factor in both diseases. Producers pushing the animal to gain weight too fast can induce this often fatal disease in their goats. Sudden changes in feed can also cause the onset of this disease.

This doe has not been on any grain since I dried her off about a month ago and has had good quality hay available. Her feed has not been changed. We have not brought any new goats to the farm recently.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

It can also be caused by mold in the hay. AND IT DOESN'T necessarily mean rampant mold. That you can see.
What you just described is the latter stages of Listo. and it didn't give you the end result-death. The object is to catch it early for best outcome. Which IS the lip/tounge/ then the ear...then other things.
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,81.0.html

First thing I'd still do...is give the Fortified B Complex, wait about an hr. and look for improvement. With Polio, you'll see improvement FAST. No, improvement, then I'd be going by the signs of Listo. and treating.
Kaye


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I would kind of doubt the info you copied and pasted is from someone who has had or treated listerosis. It has nothing to do with the amounts of grain eaten at all, it is about mold in goats. The first symptom you can see is a standing back from the herd and the start of facial never paralysis and gait issues because polio effects the nerves in the brain first. You would have dieing goats, you can't pull back if they are down, recombunt, head on flank and aborting. I have treated a herd twice, nothing down lived, but with getting away the mold issue (she used spent hay from a hay dealer for her bedding two years in a row) giving 10cc or more of pennicillin orally, injected and dex and using B vitmains like you are treating polio, just those simple things kept everyone we caught before they went down from dieing. 

Kaye even in a nubian it's a different look to the ear when they have the paralysis, but no I would doubt like on the swiss breed photos in GM you would have this as a first sign.

Due in March you will simply have to guess, because if you start Dex, which is of course what you want to use, you may also loose the pregnancy, which if it's listerosis is lost already, just not aborted yet.

So we will hope it's from fighting, but do watch her and the rest of the herd closely, for both fighting but also clean the barn, hay feeders, bedding and grain feeders. Vicki


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks for the link Kaye. Does Listeriosis always have fever? Her temp is not high - 100.2 F. She is walking fine. I HATE using antibiotics, so don't want to use them unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. I will use them if I have to of course. The other goats seem to be doing fine. I will continue to watch them closely as well. Thanks Vicki.

Kaye, I just gave her the B-complex shot. Will check on her to see if there is any improvement. If it's goat polio, will the 'improvement' mean her lip and tongue is back to normal?


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

not to butt in but isn't the B complex in different strengths? Just want to make sure youre giving enough to make a difference.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks Sherrie. My bottle says 5 cc per 100 lbs so that's what I gave.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

What's the mg of Thiamine Hydrochloride listed at on the back? If it's 12.5mg...then 5cc isn't going to touch it. If it's 100mg or more than 5cc is about right.
Kaye


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

It's 100 mg.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Then it's Fortified B-complex. You're within the range to *see* if it's polio.

Yes, you will start seeing improvement...but not drastic with the lip and tounge. In the staggers, or stays down, yes, they will get up and start eating. But, it needs to be given every 6 hrs. until no relapse. Not a one shot cure.

This doe would have run a temp at the beginning of the onset if it was Listo, not all the way through. They spike a fever then drop.

So, now, you have to watch this doe for either improvements or decline, since we can't see her.
Kaye


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

O.K. Just got back in from checking on her. Don't know if it was just wishful thinking, or if her tongue really was a little better. I cleaned out the stuck cud again. Thanks for the advice on every 6 hours. I'll keep that up.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

One thing I forgot to mention. She seems to shake herself fairly often. Not shaking like she's weak or cold, but like a dog shakes himself after a bath. She also shakes her head. I think she is shaking her head to get the cud out of her cheek.  Not sure if that information gives you anything more to work with, but thought I'd throw it out.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I personally think 100.6 is getting rather on the low side. 

On another note are you using Hay for bedding?? it molds and decays in their sleeping quarters


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

I try to use straw, but a lot of the bedding ends up being the hay they waste from their manger...

Yes, I thought her temp seemed a little low. It's been fairly cold here, maybe that's why her temp is down?


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Is allowing the waste hay from mangers to end up as bedding a problem if you regularly (as in every day) clean out anything that is dirty or wet?


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## ChristinaF. (Dec 2, 2008)

I want to know this as well. We have lots of hay waste with our present feeders. We clean it up every four days. Its a large area and doesn't get wet. Could this still be a problem?

Christina


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Do your girls eat the spent hay? Mine don't. I think the spent hay that comes from your feeders is entirely different than bringing in bales of hay to use as bedding. I even go through my bales of straw to make sure they are nice, because I know the girls nose their way through the bedding no matter if it's straw or shavings. Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Exactly. They are not going to *eat* their bedding...well, unless they are REAL hungry! I've had some that pull a few straws out of a corner that they're laying in, but it's more of a bored thing, than an eat it thing. It's not something I get paranoid over.
Kaye


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## ChristinaF. (Dec 2, 2008)

No, my girls are spoiled and won't touch the hay on the ground, which I've always been glad of.  So just being around it won't cause a problem unless they ingest it, right?

Christina


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Mine don't usually like the hay once it touches the ground either - so much for the theory that 'goats eat anything'! :biggrin


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## ChristinaF. (Dec 2, 2008)

Eliya,

How is your goat doing today?

Christina


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

She seems about the same. Eating well and alert. She still has the loose lip and her tongue still isn't right. Thanks for asking!
What are the signs of Listeriosis in order? I know, loose lip, then tongue, then ear - what comes after that? Just want to know what to watch for if she starts to get worse.

A couple other questions regarding Listeriosis... 

If that is what she has, why would the rest of the goats be fine? If they got moldy hay, wouldn't they all come down with it? They are all eating the same hay. I've been keeping a close eye on them all and they are doing fine. 

Also, how quickly does Listeriosis progress? She showed the first symptoms (hanging at the back of the herd, lack of appetite and loose lip) on Thursday or Friday last week. From what I read, I would think she'd be worse by now if it is Listeriosis.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Well...luckily for you, it's not listo! Or she would be down, with her head drawn into her flank and dead by now. It progesses fast, reason to look for the slightest signs.

Now, I have to agree with the person that suggested a injury from fighting. You still can't use the dex because of the preg., so the swelling that's causing the paralysis is going to have to heal it's self. I'd still give the B Vitamins at least twice a day to support the rumen until she can get to the point she can eat and drink normally. 

I'm glad it's NOT listo, but now you know what to look for if you ever do get it! 
Kaye


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

you might try soaking some beet pulp or giving her some oatmeal that is easy to eat.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks Sondra, I'm giving her bran mash with raisins, molasses and garlic. She seems to be able to eat her hay just fine too, but I want to make sure she's getting enough, and I've read that iron helps with paralysis.

Kaye, Thank you!!! That lifts quite a load off my shoulders.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Eliya,
I've has 2 does in the past who had the facial paralysis from a head injury. You have to be patient and just give good nursing care. The first doe that had it here, took about 6 weeks to correct, the last doe took about half that long. The most aggravating part, is keeping the cud cleaned out the jaws, and cleaning up the mess they can make with slung out cud, in the water and feeders!!!


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks for the encouragement Janie.

I have her separated from the rest of the herd. I took her outside for some fresh air and sunshine this afternoon. I noticed she seemed to be favoring her right foreleg. Felt it and it's a bit swollen around the pastern and the joint right above it. I'll just keep up what I'm doing and hope she gets better. If anyone has any more ideas, feel free to share them - I'm willing to look at any suggestions. She is one of my best does (Of course!) and I have been really anticipating her kids. She's also one of my best milkers.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

It's been about a week since Molly's facial paralysis began. Every time I take her past the door of the main doe pen (were she usually lives), she wants to go in. When she's out for sun, she hangs out by the fence like she wants to go in. It's supposed to be really cold tonight so I was hoping I could put her back with them. So, today I let her in to see if they would beat up on her too much or not. You know how they always pick on the 'new kid on the block' - even if they've only been gone for a day. Anyway, a few of them picked on her a little, but she seemed to single out one of the does and pick on her. They went at it for a while and wouldn't stop (Molly was the one picking the fight, not the other goat). So, I took Molly back out and put her in her isolation pen. She's o.k. by herself, but really wants to be back in her regular pen. I was/am worried that head butting may make her problems worse. Especially if they were originally caused by fighting. She isn't the top goat in the herd, but she's not at the bottom either. She's somewhere in the middle. When do you all think it would be o.k. to put her back with the others and how much fighting would be alright?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Gosh I don't know but would think only a few minutes of actual fighting if they are pg. Plus you don't want her hurt again. Is there just a friend you could put with her, if you think she needs company?


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

It was all head to head, not bashing bellies, but I still didn't like the idea of them going at it for more than a few minutes. I'll try putting one of the does with her to see if she'd be happier. The only problems with that are that the isolation pen I have her in is rather small and there is no access to the outdoors and sunlight.


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