# soremouth? - looks like it was caused by the hay afterall



## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

Okay after all the pain and stress this has caused my goats, myself and my family. 
Our vet sent the awful mouth photos(posted here and caused SO much speculation) to the vets at WSU. Two wrote back immediately and said bristle grass also called Bristle grass foxtail or yellow bristle grass and yep our alfalfa is full of it! It is a common noxious weed found in 4th cutting alfalfa grown in Eastern WA which is where this came from and it was 4th cutting. It looks innocent in the hay with a long thin stem and a puffy top but those tops have very tiny stickers that lodge into an animals mouth, lips and nostrils and cause nasty ulcers. In does not stick into the hands of the humans feeding so not a noticeable problem at first. All makes sense that this began in November and this load of 300 bales was purchased in October. All bristle grass was cleared from the feeds here tonight and they are on only our local grass hay. Will have to have a big bon fire with the remaining bales with bristle grass. We don't want it going to seed here!

Anyway we still went ahead and had a biopsy on the sores of two animals which should be back in 7-10 days but looks like the hay was likely the cause.
I can try to get some photos of the bristle grass if anyone wants to know more about what to look out for. For sure those in the PNW need to be careful about this horrible weed in your hay.

Shannon


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I am glad you found this out, and yes would love to see photos which will help others. Let us know what they say when the labs come back also. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Yes, I want to see the photos and learn about this, yikes! I could very easily have gotten that too!

Usually I consider a few weeds a good sign that its not sprayed with herbicides. But I know there are weeds to avoid too and try to look for the ones I know. I'll learn something new on this too!

We did get some hay this year that had some nasty thistles for humans, but the goats seemed to relish them!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

They are called Cheatgrass/Foxtails here...nasty nasty things. In dogs anyway, they get stuck in behind the third eyelid, and down their ears, and between the toes or just about anywhere in the skin and cause little abscesses. Glad you found the problem. Shouldn't grow there, even if seeded, because it doesn't like a lot of moisture.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

This sounds different than regular foxtail! Foxtail grows everywhere, and only goes into openings like between toes, in ears etc. Foxtail is bad enough but it won't go into a lip like she's talking about.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

See if you can get them to give you the Latin name of the plant they mean...if you google bristle grass, or even yellow bristle grass, you get a ton of pictures from plants that are very obviously not all the same.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Oh yes, looked it up, totally different! As a Horticulturist, my grass knowledge is lacking... but improving my the moment LOL

Regular foxtail is Hordeum jubatum and 
Cheatgrass is Bromus tectorum L

This nasty "yellow foxtail" is Setaria pumila and is a huge problem in NZ it looks like, here's one of their many pubs on it, has a good section with pics of others it gets confused with:
http://www.trc.govt.nz/assets/Publi...anagement/yellow-bristle-grass-ute-guide-.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setaria_pumila

Everyone know that Wikipedia will be out for a day in protest of ridiculous SOPA and PIPA laws proposed.

UC Davis article... http://alfalfa.ucdavis.edu/+symposium/proceedings/2008/08-51.pdf

it can cause liver cirrhosis too
http://www.mendeley.com/research/en...ntaining-flower-clusters-yellow-bristlegrass/

Here's a terrifying article that makes you think we all have to grow and inspect our own hay, ugh!
http://ucanr.org/sites/Weed_Management/files/74299.pdf


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

and my herd is now eating "Prairie Grass " !!! Oh great !! ,I better check it out as I did see some foxtail looking seed heads and I dont know where it came from but the herd is not ill.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Yeah there's a few that have some similar superficial appearances. This nasty yellow one really doesn't look much like the common foxtail we all know the Hordeum genus.

Looks like most Prairie Grass hay is Bromus wildenowii 
Here's a reputable OSU article on it
http://forages.oregonstate.edu/php/fact_sheet_print_grass.php?SpecID=20&use=Soil

But there's a bunch of discussion on grass pasture folks lists about the native prairie grasses too...


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Our prairie (we have 15 acres of virgin tallgrass prairie....it's awesome) is a combination of grasses and forbs...grasses like big and little bluestem, eastern gamagrass, prairie three-awn (I hate that grass, actually, but its bloom time is after we cut the prairie, so the nasty seeds don't end up in our hay), and many others, plus sedges and bulrushes (we have a moist area with a spring under it), and probably 50 different flowering plants. So, while "Prairie Grass Hay" _might_ be the above-mentioned brome, it might also be totally native prairie (the native grasses are all warm-season grasses, unlike that brome, which is an import and a cool-season grass, meaning it is green and growing when it is cool).


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Right, I thought I said the native prairie grasses are different than the named hay, but maybe not clearly enough. 

Those native prairie mixed forages are fabulous for herbivores! There are good reasons how they supported such a huge number of big bison!


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Shannon that is really great news. It's a bummer about your hay and the expense of replacing it, but better that than a pathogen. Looking forward to seeing your post about clean lab results.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes- Please can we get a latin name please. Common names are useless in botany. Can you post a photo of the seed head?
Thanks for sharing so we all can be armed with this knowledge.

Lee


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

I'm so glad that it was a simple issue! I know the stress that something unknown like that came be. I'm sure you heaved a HUGE sigh of relief to find it was as simple as changing hay!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

The hay! I am sure glad you found a cause. I am also glad to hear you did send in those tissue samples just in case, because it will be interesting to see if anything secondary jumped on the lesions (as happens so many times with diseases, too. The animal very often doesn't struggle the most of it's first ailment, but of the next one that attacks while the victim' is weak.)

I sure hope everyone heals fast, and that the new hay works well for you!

Marion


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I also had the same comments about Shannons photo. Now I know we are geared to help, and when seeing a photo like Shannon provided for us we should all look closely at the photo and not guess. Shannon is not the only one who sent in the photo, I did the kindness to take it to my vet, I also sent it to another person who has helped/seen sore mouth and VS. Another person I know sent it into another vet, guess what...they all pinpointed it as traumatized tissue and that she should send in feed/hay/water samples. 

As I was told by my vet...with VS or Hoof and Mouth/soremouth there will always be lesions on the outside of the mouth as well as anywhere their mouth has touched. 

Congrats Shannon on hanging in there. Do report that hay please. there are several of us who do purchase hay in Eastern Washington. Please make sure that everyone knows! I sure don't want the same happening to our herd!
Tam


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Good to hear! I hope that the lab results are satisfying also!



> there are several of us who do purchase hay in Eastern Washington.


I wonder if that is why a couple of people in that part of the state that I know only buy 2nd cutting alfalfa? First cutting is too weedy, and later cuttings may have this later blooming weed grass?


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Hopefully your goats make a complete recovery after getting off the hay. Sorry you have to toss that expensive hay, what a shame. I'm also sorry for all the stress this has been for you.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I would love to see pictures of the sores on your goats mouths. I am having a similar issue with my horses. They all seem to have "chapped" lips. A client of mine sent me home with some foxtails she got out of her hay that were causing scratches and sores on her horses gums. I cannot find any of that in our horse hay, but am still thinking it is the hay. The sores do not look like warts or fungus. They really do look like badly chapped lips. I guess I should get a picture. 

The goats get a different hay, and it DOES seem to have just a few foxtails in it, well, the last bale did, the new batch does not. Apparently it's not enough to be an issue because their mouths look fine. 

I will have to see if I can get pictures of the horses lips.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Aja-Sammati said:


> Good to hear! I hope that the lab results are satisfying also!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I was thinking the same thing.

When I was reading about this weed, there was stuff about Blister Beetles, and that can even kill in pellets, ugh!

Lee:
I posted botanical names that fit the description of the problem to a T. Did you find those? Lots of info on the exact problem.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

http://www.invasive.org/browse/subinfo.cfm?sub=6409&fb_source=message

http://www.invasive.org/browse/detail.cfm?imgnum=5307038

http://animalag.wsu.edu/horses/YellowFoxtail1075-2004.pdf

Please read the bottom address in its entirety.
Tam


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Thanks, Tam!


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## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

Okay sorry taking so long getting back here. We are having the worst weather of the year right now with record snow and freezing rain. It is an adventure just to reach the barn.

Was letting everyone know who I had contacted what we found out and friend of mine in the area was bummed she never thought of this because now that we mentioned it she knew another goat friend who went through the same exact ordeal a couple years ago with this same weed.
There are many different types of foxtail and many look very similar. I am used to the type we had in California that break off and get in dog toes, noses & eyes but these are very different they do not come apart until an animal chews it so the human handling it can so easily overlook how prickly it is. It just looks fluffy and innocent. It you take the seed head in your fingers and rub it it does feel sharp and tiny pieces not easily seen with the eye break off like tiny splinters. 
The vets at WSU who identified the problem called it Bristly foxtail or Bristlegrass. It looks most like what my weed book calls Bristly foxtail(Setaria verticillata). I did come across a couple on references online saying it can damage the mouth parts of livestock and another reference saying it can cause deep mouth ulcers but no photos of these damaged mouths and just not enough info about this out there for livestock owners. I noticed how much of this weed was in this hay from the start and that the animals were leaving it behind but we already had 300 bales of it delivered and put in the loft. I will never buy hay in bulk rate without feeding a few bales first to see what is in it. Feel so silly now for not seeing the problem when it was right in front of our faces.
Really hope they did not do any damage internally now. The animals appear well. The mouths are healing very well so far already. 

Will try to post a photo or two here of the weed if it will let be upload the images. Wish I could have gotten a clearer photo but with our gray gloomy weather the lighting was not very good to get the most clear photos. Put a penny next to it to show the size.

Shannon


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Shannon do keep an eye out for the internal ramnifications, Abcesses and such caused by barbs/spikelets inbedding into the deeper tissue membranes 

Our vets have been notified here as to the outcome of this. They are VERY grateful for the materials.

Tam


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Wow, yikes. What an ordeal. Glad you were able to get to the bottom of it. Too bad you had to spend so much on hay to waste it. Have you contacted the hay dealer?


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks Tammy for reposting those links from my other message. 

I'm dealing the same storm that Shannon is and a couple times I've been hanging out on the computer since I'm snowed in, but sometimes I'm also just plain tired like now its almost 3am and I'm stressed from the day and can't either really focus nor sleep. So sorry Lee that I didn't go find it again and thanks Tammy for pasting.

Calling something "Foxtail" is misleading. Its like "Laurel" there's a least 3 different genus and they are not remotely related. Or "Cedar" that's another one... there's many. If common names are elaborated on, it gets marginally better, like English Laurel vs Bay Laurel, many folks will know those are very different even though they are from differnt genus and not related at all. 

That's the case with saying "Foxtail" = the regular one, or "YELLOW Foxtail" which is one of the regional names for this Setaria verticillata. More common and western US seems to be Bristle Grass


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## doodles (Nov 1, 2007)

Thanks for the info. I am so happy that your goats will feel better and so will you 
It is great knowledge for everyone here.


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## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

My vet just called and they already got the results back on the biopsy. Biopsy was negative so we know can say without a doubt the plant material was the cause. I feel so bad for letting this drag out for so long thinking it was soremouth. Hopefully we can get word out there so this will not happen again. 
I got all the worst animals out yesterday and cleaned the sores as the vet suggested. They are healing very quickly now that they are no longer being exposed to the cause. I found two does who even have sores on their tongues. Poor babies! 
When the snow melts we will take this info back to the hay dealer. They are really good about exchanging hay that does not work out so we can probably exchange the 100 or so bales we have left. Hope they take it back to the farmer and tell him not to sell hay with this in it.

Those dealing with the storm stay safe. It is a bad one. We lost power twice last night due to the ice storm taking down trees and now parts of OR are flooding.

Shannon


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Great! Thanks for letting all of us know. I sure hope your does heal quickly now that they have the new hay!

Marion


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