# Difference Between Copper Deficiency, Sun Fading/Bleaching, And Brown Goats?



## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

How can you tell the difference between a goat with a copper deficiency, a goat with sun bleached/faded hair, and a goat with a mahogany, brown, liver, or chocolate colored coat? As in a goat that has the Brown locus in genetics.

Here are some pics I found on the internet of goats with the Brown gene. The "Brown" gene turns all black into brown (liver, chocolate) in the coat.



















This goat below has the Brown gene along with the Badgerface Agouti pattern (chamoise).









This one has the Brown gene along with the Peacock Agouti pattern (cou clair).









The goat above looks like a two-tone chamoise to me...

I found these pics on this website: http://www.goatspots.com/patterns.html

If a goat had a copper deficiency, would it always show dull, rough, or "crinkly" hairs, along with the red/brown color?

I know goats with the Brown gene can be born showing black where the brown would be, and then the brown would show as he ages, but how can you tell it's not sun-bleached or a copper deficiency?


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

The difference is we keep up with what we are doing with our herds so know if it's because of lack of copper or from the sun. If you are looking to purchase a goat ask the breeder if they use copper and if so what form. When they last did it ect. So you will have a better understanding\idea of when it will be needed again. 

I know mine have nice slick coats because of copper (yes I have played around with it a bit) I can't say for all goats of course though


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I have been wondering the same thing. I have/had a solid black doe. As she gets older she is fading in areas like on her back legs, on the flank and thigh areas. Her dam was an Oberhasli and her sire a reddish brown Nubian. She is copper bolused, and we sure don't have much in the way of sun bleaching in the winter months up here. Her coat is shiny, no fish tail and her kids were born healthy with no signs of copper problems. IDK!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I would say the way you tell is texture. I had a doe solid to me as chocolate, but as I supplemented her, she turned black. She was curly and swirly. Now she's slick. I do notice mine need more copper immediately after kidding. If I'm going to see deficiency signs, that's when they show up. My whole herd looks really good this year, except for one. She's frizzy. Planning to order the wire particles for her cause I don't want to mess with top dressing daily. The rest are just on added copper sulfate in the minerals.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I have a doe, she was a very dark chocolatey chamoisee when she was born (mini alpine). She is now black, but in the sunlight you can see the brown shining through if you looked closely. Anybody you asked would probably tell you she's black, but I know she's not.  Her sister from this year is the same color that goat was as a baby. We'll see if she changes too. Sorry, this doesn't really help you, but thought it was interesting observation.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It is so much more than their coats. It's whole herd health. 

We started looking into copper supplementation when we had a lot of kids born in sacks so tough that, if we had not been there, they would not have made it out. Does not cleaning, really bad feet issues with hoof wall separation....and the one thing we found that pointed us to our first liver biopsy was copper. What it then helped was also this long curly fried (bad perm look) to long hair on flanks. and that brassy red tinge to our black does hair. Bald tail tips were only seen in purchased animals from then on....oh wow, the copper even is helping with that. Our hooves were stronger, even the white hooves, even the bucks living in the woods pen on pine straw and sand.

We then noted along with the calcium connection that metabolic disease was a thing of the past, as was pregnancy issues....and learning to fecal our amounts of worming our adult does in milk plumeted.......does copper help with worming for HC....or is it that our goats are no longer copper deficient so a doe not in deficiency simply isn't attacked by blood sucking HC like a doe who is in nutritional deficiency? 

After finding out how uneducated our vets really were, how the gals at club were guessing...we then tested bo-se which was being used for decades by sheep people in the area (I was getting a custom goat feed at the time with a man who supplied most of the club lambs in the area) between him and my cow buddies at the auction barn, I learned how to take care of my goats.

So it's whole herd health....not trying to diagnose a coat problem with just copper information. It's zinc (for us too much) selenium, calcium and how they all work together....least that is how I would like you to look at it  Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks for the reminder, Vicki, of the other issues that are due to lack of copper in the diet. I have all of those issues here and I bolus 2x/year. Not ALL in ALL does, but something in most of them. I think I should either cut my dosage and bolus more often, or just plain bolus 3x/year at regular dosage, but I'm afraid of toxicity. I should have the nutritional analysis on that doe that died soon, so maybe that will help me to make a decision.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Read the sannendoah.com site on here, Joyce already did all this for us. There is no way your goats are in as bad of condition as those tested, and treated, and fixed in and around California and the pacific north west. I don't know if the links to all the photos are still up or not.

Find out what is causing them to not absorb their copper, something in your water, in your soil, in the soil your hay is coming from....it all works together this calcium/copper/selenium/zinc/iron thing. If some works a little bit more or a lot more, would be better attitude can harm your does liver. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> If some works a little bit more or a lot more, would be better attitude can harm your does liver. Vicki


??

It's our water. High Iron, Molybdenum and Sulfur.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Sunbleaching *is* generally copper deficiency.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We put a filter, it's actually a pool filter, on our well. Since we also had a lot of zinc, we also took away all the glavanized pipe and water troughs. Sulfur can cause urinary calculi that is not controlled even with ammonium chloride.

More copper is not going to help. Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

MF-Alpines said:


> Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:
> 
> 
> > If some works a little bit more or a lot more, would be better attitude can harm your does liver. Vicki
> ...


Translation: You should not give more copper because it could harm your does' livers. The idea that giving a little helps, so giving a lot is even better, is not a good way to think of it.

At least that's what I think she meant.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> We put a filter, it's actually a pool filter, on our well. Since we also had a lot of zinc, we also took away all the glavanized pipe and water troughs. Sulfur can cause urinary calculi that is not controlled even with ammonium chloride.
> 
> More copper is not going to help. Vicki


AARRRGH!!! :crazy

This is the first time I've heard this about sulfur. :/ I've been thinking about this again this last week. Sugar is RED!!  I just bolused in January. I add AC to the bucks minerals. They get alfalfa hay AND pellets. We put the online filter on the hose last year. I use plastic water tubs. The pipe from the well to the hose is old, but only about 10-15'. Should I replace that? I don't need a repeat of Pilgrim. :'(

This topic drives me INSANE!!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We have sulfur north of us and to the east of us...rotten egg smelling water. It was so bad showing east of us in LaGrange we hauled our own water for the goats for the weekend show. North of us friends eventually kept their boer males on our property after she lost 3 bucklings, even using AC, even using AC permixed grain and another acid pack another breeder touted, nothing worked but getting the males off their place. I would be hauling bottled water to my bucks. Vicki


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I could just kick myself!!  <sigh>

Would rainwater work? I'm thinking maybe a rainwater system for summer and then figure out something for winter.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, why not just gutter their barns and let the downspouts fill their water troughs?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Yes, why not just gutter their barns and let the downspouts fill their water troughs?


If we did that we'd have bird poop in the water. Ick!


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

They are eating grass and browse and hay with bird poop on it. :/


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If you look into water saving techniques like guttering, there is lots of options.....a valve with a ball float in it, so the first rain drops to the ground but as you get past 1/4 inch or so of rain, the ball works it's way up the float and plugs the hole, then the water runs into the tank of choice. So in high pollution areas, the rain that cleaned the roof off doesn't go into the collection tanks. Another way is to simply have a strainer over your downspout. For us we don't have overhanging trees, because it isn't as if birds are going to sit on your roof, they sit in branches that overhang your roof.

Most species of ecoli, cocci etc. are species specific, your goats get a lot sicker from your chickens and dogs and boots as they drag crap from one pen to the other.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

The bucks don't have a barn. Pens with goat 'condos'. LOL Nice 4X4' boxes that DH built them. Feed and water from the outside of their fence. 
I was thinking off the house and gravity feed through a hose to their water tub. It's downhill. DH wants to go off the back of the garage. <shrug> If he wants to haul water, that's fine with me.  LOL
I could go off the doe barn for their water tub--it's right next to the corner anyhow. hmmm 
Gotta get some rain barrels at the monthly swap meet in June.... I used the ones I have and turned them into hay feeders. <rolleyes> LOL


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