# Doe is not right.



## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Wouldn't you know today would be Sunday.

I have a 3 year old doe, Mockingbird, that is just not right. Last night on the milkstand she wouldn't eat her grain. And she just stood there and allowed herself to be milked (we hand milk). She NEVER does that. Usually we have to hobble her and she's really wiggly. Not last night. She gave the usual amount of milk. 

Her rumen was moving and her temp was 101.1.

Today, milk had dropped off a lot. She is laying around and doesn't want to come out of the barn. She is not herself. She refused her grain again.

Temp is the same. Rumen is not making sounds now. Her poo is normal.

The only thing that I might mention is that she has pimples on one side of her udder. Showed up about a week ago. We have been using good washing practices before and after milking, and they aren't getting worse. They don't ooze, but will give white stuff when squeezed. I had ordered chlorhexadine and planned on changing the milking routine with that when it gets here.

This is the same girl that licked the paint primer a few weeks ago. She has been great since then. Temps have cooled off. Girls have all been happy. We did get a lot of rain with Irene.

Since I am so new to goats, I don't want to lose one due to ignorance. Any input would be deeply appreciated.

I am at a loss....


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Any time I have an "off" girl, I give an injection of B vitamins, Bo-Se (if I haven't given it recently) & vitamin C. Probiotics never hurt either...

As for the pimples.... I had that this year......it was staph. Cleaned 3x's a day with chlorhexidine & fed vitamin C daily.....

This year I'm vaccinating all my does with Lysigin..


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

All 5 of our girls came to us in early July. They were all wormed, vaccinated, copper bolused, and received BoSe.

I have BoSe, but is it too soon to give it? I have the vitamin C and the Probios. I can get the other stuff maybe tomorrow when places are open.

Can I just give crushed up chewable vitamin C? The challenge with that is that she isn't eating. Same with probiotics. I could use a drenching gun, I suppose.

I have tried to actually see the pimples myself. DD is the main milker here. She says she sees them, especially when the udder is full. I have tried and tried, but can't see anything, so I have to go by what she says. I was thinking it might be staph, which is why we are switching the milking procedure. Sounded like a better procedure all the way around anyway. We already use Fightbac after milking, so it makes sense to me.

She just looks rough and depressed.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Give her some mylanta or milk of magnesia for acidity. About 30 ccs in a dosing gun.
Take her temp- 102 or close is normal.
Staph rash does not affect appetite. 
Can you describe your feed regime?
Many times off feed is just a ph issue. You want the rumen to stay at 6.5 to 7 and too much grain or a change of feed or even just getting chilled and slowing down cudding cycles will result in acidity.
Watch her to see how frequently she cuds. Listen to her rumen. It is rolling at about once a minute?
Please take her grain away and offer the best hay you have alone where she does not have to compete.
Lee


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

If she has not been wormed since July you need to run a fecal and see if she is sporting a parasite population.
How do her gums and eyelids look? They should be very richly pink.

I see your older post answered some of my questions.
Does she cud? If temp drops rumen function decreases which increases acidity.
Get her neutralized and go from there. 
Lee


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

Are you seeing any muscle tremors or shaking? Not wanting to jump up on the milk stand? I would not be taking all of her milk when you milk her out. Leave her some in there. Do you have any injectable CMPK? If so I would give her 30 ccs sub q above her last rib. You can get a bottle from the vet for about $10.00.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

We give alfalfa all day long, free choice. We milk 2 times a day, at which time they get their grain ration, about 3 cups. We also add a big handful of BOSS and top dress the grain with Manna Pro Minerals. About 2-3 weeks ago we had a couple bags of oats given to us that we have been giving on the top, but that won't really continue. It's been more of a treat.

The does that aren't in milk are secured once a day to the wall and fed in their own spot, to prevent bullying and to make sure everyone gets their share. The kids get their medicated feed and the dry doe gets a little grain to put weight on her. All of them lost weight when they moved to our farm. Anyway, they get a handful of BOSS and top dressed with minerals.

No muscle tremors or shaking. She gets on the milkstand ok. She has been quite the lady for the last 2 milkings, which is saying something. She is usually squirrely! That's actually one of the things that concerns me. She just isn't her spunky self. Depressed. She is laying apart from everyone else. 

I don't have any MOM. Will get it ASAP. Can I use baking soda?

I did get her to take some alfalfa from my hand, but not much. Her rumen is moving, but slower. More like 1 time per every 2 or 3 minutes. She refused grain both last night and this morning.

Her coat is rough. I brushed her, which she really liked, and she had some dandruff. The fur looks kind of fried. Some of it is due to the rubbing on the milkstand (along the neck), but it is generally in rough shape.

She is actually the queen in our herd. She doesn't usually get bullied or pushed around. The only stress I know of would be the move to our farm. Since then, they have been pretty happy (except for the incident with the primer, that is).


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

One thing I didn't mention is that we are going back to giving the mineral free choice. I wanted to make sure they were getting enough, so changed to a top dress method, but I liked the free choice much more.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Great rundown of your info- thanks.
Her eyelid and gum color?
I really would suspect parasites. If she has free choice alfalfa she is not likely calcium deficient so thanks for adding that info. Yes baking soda will work it is just that MOM is a ph of 12 and has lots of go power for neutralizing. But yes- do it right away- sometimes it is all you need.
Often they will take if voluntarily but otherwise you will need to force the issue.
It is so many times a very quick fix.
Did you see her cudding at all? She will not add anything to her belly if she is not cudding.
After you dose her rub the rumen and stroke her throat alternately a few times back and forth and see if she will burp. It will make her more comfortable and more likely to cud if some of the gasses are expelled.
Good Luck! Keep taking her temp and watching for cudding- as soon as she cuds her temp should rise some.
Lee


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

I will go check the eyes right now. I tried earlier, but she wouldn't let me. I'll try it again.

I just watched her eat some more alfalfa. Not much, but some is more than she was. She is cudding, but it is small burps. Not the big, satisfying "excuse me, please" kind of burp that she usually does.

SO, how much baking soda do I give?


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

OK. So I gave her baking soda. She ate it fine. She took maybe a fourth to a half of a cup. Husband is going to get MOM, but it will be a 2 hour trip.

Her eyelids look like a 2 to me. Maybe almost a 3 around the edges. I don't have any experience with it, so am not confident in my assessment.

Her temp. is down to 100.7. It is 73 degrees outside today. I will check it again shortly.

She is still burping only a little. Nothing robust.

I have counting slides on the way so I can do my own fecal counts. The microscope got here, just waiting for the other..

Is it normal to have to worm again after only 2.5 months?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

2.5 months would be a longer stretch in Texas. I have no idea about conditions in KY. One hopes the copper will reduce the incidence of needing to worm. I like the electrolyte gel to get them drinking more. Sometimes hay and water and baking soda will get them back on track if they've nibbled something odd. More often than not worms are a factor though.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Wow, I am behind on my scheduling then. I thought I had a little more time. 

How often do you do a fecal count? Do you look at eyelids once a week?

Right now I have Valbazen and Ivomec injectable. She had Cydectin in July. Should I worm without doing a fecal count?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> Is it normal to have to worm again after only 2.5 months?


The key to that is if the wormer used at that time was actually effective against the adults and if she had a follow up to catch any eggs that hatched. This is a common mistake. If you have feeding adults you have eggs and most wormers do nothing about eggs. So you must go back and catch them after they hatch.

Good to hear you are getting set up to fecal.
Sounds like you live like we do- in the back end of nowhere!
Perhaps the soda will do well enough with out a long trip out.
I assume she is not cudding or you would have seen that.
Great that she volunteered to eat the soda.
Lee


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

We are drenching her with a vitamin/electrolyte solution. And we are giving her the 30cc of MOM. She has taken a few more bites of alfalfa, but is not drinking, hence the solution. 

We cleaned the barn real well, too. I wanted to see if something had gotten past us there, but found nothing. We clean regularly. I was just wanting to cover everything I can think of.

She really likes the brushing, so we keep on doing it, especially on her belly and neck. I am hoping to promote cudding. Not to mention it seems to make her happier.

We will take her temp again in a while.

They probably told me to worm her again when we brought the girls home. I just missed it in the blizzard of information, I'm sure. Any thoughts on just worming her without doing a fecal? Which wormer would I need, the Valbazen or the Ivomec inj. and at what dose? I will get the Cydectin ASAP as well.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Blackberry Farm said:


> I just watched her eat some more alfalfa. Not much, but some is more than she was. She is cudding, but it is small burps. Not the big, satisfying "excuse me, please" kind of burp that she usually does.


I think maybe you are confusing cudding with burping? Cudding is when she regurgitates stomach contents to rechew and swallow. 
Is she pooping normal?
I would keep giving her soda. Also Fortified B (Thiamin) and BoSe to stimulate her appetite. And swipe a cud from another goat to give her, or yogurt or probios to get some good bacteria back into her rumen.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

If it were me, I would deworm since it has been 2.5 months. With Ivermectin injectible I use 1 cc/35 lbs. I have no experience with Valbazen. Repeat in 10 days. I spot check eyelids daily. I'm constantly grabbing somebody and looking at the eyelids. The beginner mistake I made was being content with pale pink. It wasn't til this year after the vet set me on Cydectin that I saw what they were supposed to look like - *deep* pink. I'm curious how often others recommend running fecals. I tend to run one when I'm suspicious or I want to check if a worming worked.

I always forget about swiping a cud. That's a good one. The brushing is good. Sometimes they need alot of love and attention to keep up their spirits. Hope she turns a corner for you soon.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Oops! (*Blushes and hides face). Every day I learn something new. Thanks for the info. So, to be clear, she is burping little burps here and there. I haven't seen her cudding, but she was at the feeder an hour ago, so I'm encouraged. We listened with the stethoscope and she is making rumen sounds.

Poops are completely normal.

We also put the minerals back out free choice, and I will continue to offer her baking soda in addition.

Her temp has dropped to 100.2.

How often can we give BoSe? She had it in July. I will try to get some Thiamin tomorrow. We are giving her Probios. I will steal a swipe of cud for her also.

I can't tell if she's drinking now because it is dark, but she hasn't been.

Have I covered all the bases? I can't think anymore. I am exhausted.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

BoSe can be given monthly (I think it's actually every 21 days to be precise) as a supplement. Sue Reith's protocol for kids with pneumonia has it being given @ 1cc once a day for 3 days, so it can be given more often as part of a treatment to boost immunity. 
If she's not drinking then you also need to worry about dehydration. So when at the vet also pick up some lactated ringers.

Oh, and please don't blush and hide your face.  We are all learning. I figure if I don't learn something new every day, then I'm probably spinning my wheels.  LOL


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

I have lactated ringers. And the BoSe.

How do I administer the fluids? Is this the SQ technique? Where would I inject it? I tried to use a drenching gun and got some water down her, but I don't want her to inhale it or something.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Is she bloated at all? What is in their grain ration? Could she have gotten into anything funky? I had a doe with similar symptoms, but also bloated with diarrhea, and she had gotten into some moldy alfalfa pellets. So, I treated her with baking soda, gave her hay only, kept an eye on her temp, and gave her b-vitamins. She was pretty yucky feeling for a couple days, but eventually got better. I would take her on a walk everytime I went out, which helped to get her rumen moving, and she would usually do lots of burping on those walks. She didn't really feel like moving around much and would stand hunched up, but I felt like she needed the walks to get things moving along. Perhaps that would help. And since her temp is kind of low, you should definitely keep up on the b-vitamins because that could be a sign of polio. Is there anywhere inside like a stall in the barn or something, you could put her in overnight that's warm and cozy with lots of bedding? Then she could have her own hay and water and not have to possibly be bullied due to not feeling well.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

You could warm the fluids up a little bit in the microwave, then give them SQ, usually around the shoulders or anywhere along the back. Wherever there is enough skin to get a nice big "bleb" going. If she is dehydrated that could help to keep her temp up a bit too if it's chilly where you are, because hydration helps with temperature regulation. I have given very large dogs up to and exceeding an entire liter of LRS SQ, but don't know how much a goat would get, and that was on a pretty dehydrated dogs that had been vomiting. They will absorb it over time, so you will see pockets of fluid for usually around 12-24 hours, and sometimes it will sink down with gravity around their legs and things.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

She isn't bloated. Her belly looks really small to me, actually. I thought she might have found something funky which is why we cleaned the barn on a Sunday. I found nothing weird or bad.

She had baking soda earlier and MOM. No grain, but she wouldn't be interested anyway. She will nibble alfalfa a little.

Her temp is really troubling me.

When I brush her, she is burping. Plus it seems to make her happier. I might try to walk her in the a.m. She doesn't want to stand much at all.
I have her in her favorite place in the barn, with all of the fresh bedding piled high. She is resting her head on a big pile of it. 

I am going to try giving lactated ringers SQ right now.

Other than all of that, I just don't know.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

You've probably already gone out and given her fluids, but I was going to say, that you might not want to give her a whole liter of fluids, maybe 500 mls.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Well, we are pulling the night shift here at our house....

We gave her 250 ml of lactated ringers and a dose of BoSe. She didn't respond to the pokes very much. She is moving around the barn, we keep finding her in different places.

Temp was 100.2 last time we took it.

She makes a weird noise when she is breathing. Kind of like something is caught in her throat. It's not what I'd call labored, just noisy. No coughs. 

She didn't make any milk for the night milking, not that I could get her to stand long enough to milk her anyway. I just left what little might be in the udder alone. She has been bothered so much. 

And the night goes on and on.......


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I would sure pay attention to any noises while breathing.
Normally you will see elevated temp with pneumonia so perhaps she aspirated when you were medicating her? Is this recent or part of the original symptoms? Is it nasal or chest noises?
I would get her going on some antibiotics since any time temp is low a secondary infection can take hold and become more problematic than what you were originally treating for. 
Lee


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

If there is an overgrowth of parasites, it will cause the stress that you're describing, and eventually that will lead to pneumonia. Sounds crazy, but I lost my first goat that way. There was no fever with that pneumonia, either, but subnormal temps. 

Have you wormed her or started her on coccidia treatment yet? Normally, an adult doe won't have coccidia issues, but if there is a worm overgrowth, they will take advantage of that. You don't have to see diarrhea to have that, either. 

I agree to get her started on an antibiotic. I like Naxcel or Excenel. 

How is she this morning?


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Anytime I have a doe, buck or kid that's off feed and I don't understand it (yet), I definitely give a shot of Banamine. It reduces fever (and yes an extreme bout of fever can start with a below normal temp), reduces inflammation, and (most importantly) helps as an anti toxic (a sick animal can mess up it's internal systems and start releasing toxins, an off feed sheep goes very quickly!!). So always banamine, look for exact doses here on the dairy goat 101 area (I use 3 cc for a very sick adult large sized doe, 1.5 cc for a small-medium kid, 2cc for everyone else). 

It is pretty normal that a doe that is sick baffles you initially. A lot of diseases/disorders have a lot of the same symptoms, so don't feel bad that initially you are in the dark. Don't ever do 'nothing' when a doe is off feed, though. Give banamine first and here in your case, when it looks like the doe is now showing pneumonia-like symptoms the next day, grab for the antibiotics. I usually keep it simple (penicillin), but compared to others I am relatively new to goats and there are many other options. (Input???). Also, you'd be amazed how a doe, in the very early stages of getting an upset stomach, can fix stuff herself when given the chance. My herd queen, Love, is an extreme high producer and every now and then she does get an upset stomach. My reaction in her case? Nutri drench (sorry Vicki, I still use it for her...) and turning her loose to browse for the stuff she thinks she needs. She usually goes for a patch of 'useless weeds', the kind of stuff you don't want in your pasture, or dead leaves. Whatever it is: that and the banamine usually get her through it! Love and I, we think we're pretty smart together (she's really the brains of the operation, though, and therefore dictator :biggrin )

All the suggestions on deworming, Bo-se, etc: yes, yes and yes, even though I don't use all of those things (some!): any time I have a sick animal, call me paranoid, but I immediately check out everyone in the pen. Did I miss something? Was there more random coughing lately? Is anyone not smiling at me? How are the feet!!!! Sometimes a doe stops eating, because it's to painful to get to her feed! Are we out of mineral? Did I change feed, or did the company I buy my feed from change something major without telling me (happened to me with calf milk replacer, awful). Am I up to date on vaccines, deworming, etc. Anyway, good luck and I sure hope you get your queen going again!

Marion


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Standard dose for Banamine is 1cc/100#. I usually give a full dose to start with and then half doses twice a day. It also calms the gut and is a pain killer/anti-inflamatory, which would be a good thing

How's she doing this morning Michele? Are you still not seeing any shaking or trembling?-it usually appears in the rear legs if it's milk fever. Grinding teeth? Hunched? CMPK would be needed for milk fever.

Keep offering her alfalfa hay/pellets. No grain. I wouldn't give too much orally, just soda and yogurt/probios/swiped cud. Keep up the B Vit to stimulate appetite.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Necie is right on her dose. I always give a heavy dose for the first shot, though, and then don't give more than once a day after that for no more than 3 days total, so my system's a bit different. It's what works for me, but I'm sure Necie's will work well too.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I hope she's doing ok!

Don't be hard on yourself. I lost my favorite little mini doe in Jan. I didn't realize you had to deworm year round here. My routine was to never deworm from the time they were bred til kidding. The worm stress threw her into respiratory stress and ketosis. I ran her to the vet, but I was too late. Lost her and her kids. I've had goats for five years, so I was pretty agitated to have messed that up.  At least now I have a whole new protocol.

Another good tip is to always deworm when you get a new goat, even if they were wormed at the place you got them. Anytime I have failed to do that, I have regretted it. I don't know if this is scientifically correct or not, but it seems like they are not as immune to worms at a new place and/or moving is a stressor.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Well, she has been moving about the barn all night-changing position, but she is pretty much just lying around. She is right in the doorway, which is high traffic, but she seems to want to be in the mix.

The breathing is quiet now. It sounded like she had something in her nose or throat that I could hear when she exhaled.

Her head is down and she is grinding her teeth. It is very loud to me. She will be wormed today and I am trying to get a fecal sample to run to a vet. She isn't being cooperative on that count, though.

When I get her up, I will also get a temp. On my way right now.....


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

She definitely grinding her teeth.

Her temp is down to 98.5

I am starting Excenel.

I could not get a fecal sample.

Her muscles are quivering, both front and back.

I don't know what else to do for her.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

CMPK 35cc every two hours.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Warning, while I was typing, 2 new replies.

I second the CMPK. Blanket or coat her, even bring her inside if you can.

Banamine for pain. She is grinding her teeth, so you know she hurts. It will perk her up a bit too, and help with any inflammation. It can be given sub-q, IM (best) and even IV so don't worry where it goes, just go for a muscle, point, and shoot. 3 day protocol but it can be given longer if necessary. Don't go over 6 days unless it's really necessary as it can affect the liver.

The antibiotic can be given in the muscle. Back of the leg is easiest--anywhere meaty. That's one where you will want to pull back on the syringe a bit just to insure you're not in a blood vessel. I really like naxcel or excenel (same drug, different carrier) because it's good for respiratory, uterine, mammary, just about every area a dairy doe can get ill and there is zero milk withdrawal. You don't need a huge dose like penicillin (which also takes longer to work and has to be given longer and is generally a pain in the rear, IMO), and it's not thick and painful. 1cc per 50 pounds twice a day for 2 days or until you see improvement, once a day for 3 more days or until the issue is resolved.

At this point, I wouldn't worry too much about making sure you get the right wormer. You have Valbazen on hand, it tackles just about everything out there, and if she hasn't been wormed since she was here, it won't hurt. Valbazen is 1cc per 10 pounds. Just shake up your bottle, put the mouth piece of the drenching gun down in it, and suck up the 16 to 20 ccs she will need. Shove it back in her throat and squeeze slowly so she can swallow it. If you don't get a fecal sample until after you've wormed, you can still see if coccidia have taken advantage of her stressed situation and tackle that if need be and if you need to follow up with another wormer you can. 

Just as a reminder for folks who are reading, as we are heading into breeding season, the hormonal changes in your does are a stressor, so keep monitoring your parasite loads, particularly now that some of us who have had a dry summer are starting to get rain. As Vicki once said, "no self respecting worm mama is going to drop a bunch of eggs in unfavorable conditions", but right now conditions (hot, wet, hormonal stress) are pretty good for parasites. If you've been on top of it all summer, don't slack off now. That's what Christmas is for 

If this is feeling over your head to treat yourself, don't feel bad if you take her to the vet. At this point, down, grinding teeth, declining temperature, I wouldn't hesitate to get the extra help. I wish I was closer.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I am always such a Debbie Downer, but I think what you are looking at is the liver failure I warned could be the end of her getting into the paint thinner. Everything we do effects the liver, the too much worming meds (I fecal every month and not one adult doe here has been wormed since March when they kidded) to some crazy drug dosages  all goes into the liver or kidneys or both to be processed.

We normally see this in a sick doe who is given over the top amounts of drugs, because so many have the mentality that if a little works, twice as much must/has to be better. The doe recovers, than fails about 2 to 3 weeks later...it is not a replapse, it is her liver and kidneys failing. Why we all have to be so careful about our drug dosages when we are talking about vet perscriptions. There is only a very small reason to give banamine more than once a day, or at over the 1cc per 100 pounds...just to name one thing I have seen on here.

I wasn't here yesterday to help but I always start with B vitmains, subq fluids, Bo-se (which can be given every 21 days) and being a milker CMPK, which I use as an injectable only. Also once down they have to be wormed with something that you know kills adult worms on your farm, a sulfa for bacterail infections and cocci and like Lee preaches something to deacidify. Once you start giving oral anything, unless you know how to tube, a doe who is down is going to aspirate some of it into her lung....goats also don't swallow fluids into their rumen and it's the only place you can tube into...so you can see quickly how any fluids given orally pretty much is hastening the demise of the goat.

Sorry this has happened. Vicki


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

We talked to the vet we know. He keeps goats, although I'm not sure they milk them. And actually prefers large farm animals to the small pet variety. (Of course, he works with both kinds)

Anyway, he says vitamin B12, Thiamine, and Dex.

I have given Excenel and Valbazen. I don't have Banamine, except for in a horse paste. Any other drugs I can give instead?

When she got into the primer, we gave her activated charcoal. Nothing else. Was that wrong?


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Oh, I forgot to add that I have her covered with a blanket to keep her warmer, also.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

You can do horse paste banamine, but I don't know the dose with that. Tracy does if Vicki doesn't. 

Didn't know about the paint thinner/primer? Did she throw any of it up? Sometimes, they can get into something so toxic that there's nothing that can be done. I had some get into azalea once and they slung cud for a while but recovered. Had it been more of it, I wouldn't have been so lucky. (It was Nubians, not the girls you got.)


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

If the doe is not pregnant you can give her Dexamethasone instead of Banamine, about the same dosage IM, but never give that to a pregnant doe (she will abort) and Banamine has more benefits than Dex anyway (it will reduce fever though). I think no one should ever be without Banamine, it is for me the med that apart from it's obvious benefits gives me time to react and treat the doe correctly. Banamine doesn't 'treat' any diseases, but it keeps fever down and helps prevent the doe from killing herself (giving up and/or releasing her own toxins).


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Um...Dexamethazone does not cause abortion. It is a corticosteroid.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Denise you are exactly correct, and it is used as a steroid in humans and in goats, for premature labor to improve lung function in the kids...but it has turned into a duo shot with lutelyse to bring does into labor. So hence the confusion  It also is never used except by goat people as a single shot. V


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I, for one, am not fond of Dex. It has it's place, but.... It lowers immunity. It should not be used with NSAIDs (Banamine). I induced three does this last year with Lute alone. I induced two ON their due dates and one AFTER. No need for Dex. It does nothing to help labor and I just don't feel the need to lower immunity on a doe along with the stress of labor. And if the labor/delivery is rough, then I want to use Banamine which also kills pain and reduces fever.

Sorry to go OT, Michele. I would still get some CMPK into her on the chance that it could be lactational acidosis/milk fever.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

OK, we had a little bit of an alfalfa bale that we bought when we got the goats in July from TSC, the really green stuff. She wouldn't eat any this morning, but I just got a decent amount in her. She is still down, so I offered it by hand, and she perked up to eat. Not her usual piggy self, but more than before.
I got her to eat about half of a small container of yogurt.

We offered soda, which she refused.

Her head is up a little. Still refusing water.

Husband has all of the meds with him at work. He went to the vet and got it, but it is an hour from my home. So, at this point, I am trying to get her stable so I can leave for a couple of hours.

Heading out to give her Dex. She must hate to see me coming about now.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

As far as the CMPK, I can't find it anywhere. Vet doesn't have any. He will call into ValleyVet. Of course, that doesn't help me now....


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Michele-I want to address a topic here that is seldom spoken of when a goat recieving good care becomes ill.
Often the animal has been transferred to new circumstances several times in her recent history after living with the breeder for an extended time. Her body was completely adapted to one care regime- one type of weather cycles- one kind of handling and structure of herd and then her care and surroundings (including weather- water- soil- herd community) were changed -she could perhaps partially adapt but stressors were there. Add several changes and you build up stress to the level of opening an avenue for serious illness to take hold. In my experience there is a much delayed response in dairy goats to changing circumstances. They may never become ill but instead just produce poorly or have reproductive issues or stay thin or have skin and hair problems because the stress of adapting to a new life extends for longer than new owners imagine.

The digestion of a small ruminant is extremely complex and just the die off of one of the serveral supportive fungi species in the rumen can take weeks to re-establish and if the entire compliment of digestive 'assistants' is disturbed repeatedly their ability to take in nutrition optimally regardless of what is provided is limited and often immune function is the first thing affected. So say this happens 3 times in the space of 2 years- you may never be successful with an animal that has had to adapt to widely varied situations so often. 

The herds I have worked with that have the least problems in all facets of husbandry are those that have animals that have been resident for most of their lives in one place. This speaks well for starting new people with kids so that their growth period is also their adaptive period and so more readily overcome. 

I am saying this so that you will understand there may have been nothing to do with the paint- and nothing to do with your care but everything to do with how often this animal has been forced to change her life.
Lee


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you, Lee.

I am trying so hard here, to help this poor doe be well. It is so hard to not know what to do or how to do it. All of the book reading in the world cannot prepare for the real life stuff. How well I am learning that. Feels like taking a drink from a fire hose.

I have been actively reading DGI to learn, and building my medicine cabinet. I just didn't get everything in time, which frustrates me the most. To need something and not have it, GRRRRRRR!

One very dear lady said today "Just remember, God thinks you're ready to learn a little bit more and after you get through this, you will know more how to help others. Goats are good teachers. "

Your words and hers help me so much. Thank you.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Hugs Michele! I have not had to use CMPK but I do know that a lot of feed stores carry calcium gluconate and that it's the calcium you're after. You may do a search on here to see how to administer that and the dosage.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Lee is very right. Good news is when you get your herd up and going and you are keeping your own babies and you have good protocols, things get much MUCH easier.

I agree with Vicki on the drenches. I feel I have made things worse a few times by giving too many oral meds. Worms just seem to vary from location to location. When I lived in the Rio Grande Valley, I never needed to worm at all. Sure got an education when I came up here and bought goats. I'm hoping when I move to a location where it freezes hard it will be far less a problem.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Necie and Vicki. . . Dexamethasone DOES cause the onset of parturition in does, with or without lutalyse, so if you give it to a doe prior to her fetuses being full-term, you'll have stillborn kids or abortions. We had this happen in our herd last year with a doe that was fairly early in her pregnancy and had to be treated for polio. The first thing any vet should ask you prior to giving Dex is whether your doe is pregnant.


Michele - so sorry you're being given such a trial by fire learning experience! Sometimes the more you try to do to help a goat, the less it seems to help. 

Caroline


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I still disagree. Corticosteriod is corticosteroid. Dexamethazone for goats is no different than Prednisone for humans. 
Anything given early in pregnancy can cause abortion.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

A direct quote from Goat Medicine by Dr. Mary Smith, "Corticosteroids are sometimes administered for an antiinflammatory effect to goats with infectious disease or with injuries. This should be avoided during the last month of pregnancy. . . The average time to parturition in goats receiving corticosteroids has not been well characterized, but is approximately 44 to 48 hours."

Caroline

Caroline


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

To answer your question, It wasn't wrong to give the charcoal for getting into the paint stuff. That is an excellent thing to give for a poisoning.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

What Caroline said about Dex was also my understanding... that if you want to induce parturition gradually rather than immediately you would do so with Dex rather than Lute. In this case the onset of parturition is ~48 hours. I don't have first hand experience inducing labor with either.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I don't care what everyone thinks or what Dexamethasone is, but you better believe Dex will cause abortion. Know several people who accidentally grabbed the Dex instead of Banamine and had their animal abort. Do not take the risk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

I just got home from picking up meds and found that Mockingbird is standing at the feeder, eating. And she has been drinking from her bucket while I was gone. She is not shaking in her legs. She had 1 clumpy poo and urinated also.

Relief would be an understatement.

I am giving her the Excenel and I decided to use the Banamine instead of Dex. The vet also gave me Nuflor, but am thinking I will wait on that. I have a few questions to ask him first. We will continue B12 and Thiamine. I will offer her baking soda and yogurt, but give her Probios to counter the antibiotics.

I can't find CMPK where we live, but I did find a kitchen remedy from Sue Reith, so I can use that as needed. It will be oral, but more palatable than what they sell in the stores. That is, until the injection type arrives.

Does all of this sound reasonable? My brain is fuzzy and I want to make sure I am hitting all the notes.

And now I have new motivation to build a herd that only knows this farm as home!

I know we aren't out of the woods yet. She started with the breathing noises again tonight. And it is raining and cool, which isn't the most helpful (Although, I am NOT complaining since I know what my friends in Texas are suffering right now-still praying on that count). I am starting to think I might get to sleep tonight. It's been a long weekend.

To sat thank you seems so small, but it's all I've got.

You all are the best.


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## robyn (Sep 12, 2011)

i would be careful and check with your vet close to you about the dose and time span for Bo-Se you give her because here in arkansas
it is 1 ml per 40 lbs body weight and it is toxic if you give them too much and if i ever have any "off" goats i get electolytes about 30 cc every 
2 hours and i use the powder probios and mix it with a little water i give 5 g every milking until they are better and if she gets diarreha i always give 
3 ml of LA 300 in the hind leg muscle it does burn so prepare for screaming and crying but in no time at all, it is gone and they are ok 
hope your goat gets better 
lacey, robyns daughter


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Oh I'm so glad she's eating, drinking and pooing! Happy news!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Just for future reference the Nuflor is respiratory specific. It was developed for pneumonia in calves and is active against several strains of bacteria that colonize the respiratory system. I have found it very helpful for respiratory distress. 

The issue with oral calcium or a CMPK substitute given orally is that if oral was going to work...the alfalfa would have been sufficient. The fact that (if) she needs calcium despite having free fed alfalfa means her digestion is not working to convert her intake and make it available (acidic). So adding more calcium orally is to no avail.

You must use CMPK injected to bypass the problem with the oral intake and conversion.
Try to find and keep this item in stock at all times in any dairy situation- it is such a cheap lifesaver. It is a sterile solution and unopened has a long shelf life. Ask your vet to order it for you to keep on hand.

So glad she is making progress- do not worry about the clumpy poo- it is the MOM. 
Lee


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Just got back from evening shots. She definitely had an opinion about being poked tonight. Much different than before!

Her temp is up to 101.8. Hallelujah!!

The Nuflor sounded good to me, but some internet sites said it's not for breeding stock or for dairy cattle. Now, I know she isn't a cow, but I couldn't in good conscience just give it to her without asking the vet. It sounds like it might be another good thing to have in the goat medicine cabinet.

I see the point about the oral calcium. It makes sense to me. I thought the other ingredients of the treatment might help with uptake, but that was just a guess. I just don't know enough about milk fever to say. I couldn't get any CMPK from anywhere today.
The vet called in an RX for it to ValleyVet, so I will be getting it and keeping it in my goat medicine cabinet. And I hope I never need it.

And now, Mockingbird is all tucked in, and I am going to bed.....I hope.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Glad to hear she is rising temp! That must mean she is cudding more normally.

Keep in mind few meds and fewer rx have been trialed or dosaged for goats.
The rules on cattle meds are based on the fact that they are food animals and we are protecting people that might encounter their milk or meat- bah.....Not Applicable in my barn.
Personally I will use whatever it takes to keep a goat from dying and you can worry about tossing the milk later. Better than having to feed her to the dogs !!! 

The MPK in the CMPK is to balance the minerals so they are delivered and absorbed correctly without causing any other deficiencies. But once normal rumen function slows or stops injecting is the best. Glad you are going to have some on hand. And very glad Miss Mocky is improving. 
Lee


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Praise God! What a relief!  good job pulling her through the toughest part! Just keep up with the full course of excenel. If she comes back into milk, great. If not, it's breeding season and she could benefit from the time off prior to kidding anyhow. :handclap :woohoo


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

And don't forget to keep up with her parasites, too. As soon as you get a chance to run a fecal test, you should do so.

So glad to hear she's back to feeling more like herself!

Caroline


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Yay, happy endings are the best!


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

Good work. I'm glad she is better.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you to everyone that offered input and expertise! I appreciate you all so much!!

I'm with you, Lee. I will do whatever I can to save a life. Worry about the lost milk later. Thank you for the info on the CMPK. I hope it gets here soon.

Our girl is doing much better today. 

Her temp is at 101.8. She is eating and drinking. Her tummy is very rumbly, though. She is chewing cud. She took some baking soda, not so much on the yogurt. I will be giving her Probios for a while since she is on antibiotics.

She is still holding her head lower than I like. And she is still grinding her teeth some. She has developed quite a cough. 

We did get some milk from her today. I am considering letting her dry off, though, to recover before she breeds and carries a pregnancy. Maybe she'll put on a little weight too. I don't know yet.

I plan to do a fecal as soon as I can and I will continue with her worming regimen that I already started. I probably need to just treat the rest of the girls for parasites and then do the fecal counts when my slides arrive.

Now it's off to check on her and do the evening chores.

Thank you all for the support. She would have died without you. I just know it.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

When your giving her the probiotics, make sure to not give the antibiotic at the same time. Otherwise, the probiotic won't do much good because the antibiotics will kill it.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Glad she's better, Michelle.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Quick update and a question.

Mockingbird is improving slowly. I am continuing her Excenel and I think today will be her last dose of Banamine. She has gotten only a minimum amount of grain and is starting to produce milk again. I have a spring doeling that came with Mockingbird that has a very snotty nose, a very bad cough (like Mockingbird's), but no fever. She just started to grind her teeth a very little bit, too. I am starting her on antibiotics and Banamine as well. She is very small, not sickly, she just comes from small genes. Everyone besides Mockingbird is being wormed today, also. I will conduct the fecal analysis as soon as my slides arrive (or give it my best shot, anyway).

Question... I want to rebuild Mockingbird's rumen and keep Cordelia's (doeling) up and running. What are the best products, ways to do this. I got my box from Hoegger's today, so have kelp, rumen enhancer, and yeast. I have never used any of these products, so how do I go about this? If there are better products, I am willing to use them. I would like to hear your thoughts as to how best to go about this. I do also have the Probios gel and some powder.

I know it will take a long time to get her into great shape. I want to do this right.

Thanks for your help.

Michele


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