# Big name herds and home milkers



## R and R Farms (Jul 7, 2008)

As I ponder buying new stock and trying to improve on what I have, I find myself drooling over the big name herds with goats freshly clipped and set up to really catch the eye. My goals for my small herd are certainly good conformation, but equally important, to me, is steady production and length of lactation while maintaining good health and condition. I guess what I'm wondering is if you could realize any of these goals with goats from the larger, well-known breeders who seem to be concerned primarily with show wins....Mike


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I think it would be a big mistake to just lump all big breeders into a category of having kids who will not grow into good home milkers. Certainly they have done a lot of work to get those girls to the point where they can be champions, top ten producers, etc. 

Their management may differ from yours though, as they may feed more grain, for instance, to get those top numbers and show wins. 

Having big name goats in your kids background may help you sell kids in the future. But on that same note, if you look around, you will most certainly be able to find off-spring in other herds with those same genetics you admire, being raised more like you might raise them, and at a lower cost. 

I think if you express what you are looking for in a dairy goat, good breeders will help you select a goat that meets your expectations, no matter if they are big or small.

Good luck!


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

Oh gosh - I can so relate.  But what Anita said holds very true. There are a fair number of smaller breeders like yourself, maybe a few years ahead of you, who have bought and used the same genetics you want. And after a couple of years assembling a decent herd of those does, you'll be ready to go for the gusto - maybe with a buck - and take yourself to that next level of goat but using your management style.  Enjoy the journey!


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

A couple of things: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" so they say! And sometimes politics come into play with that first statement. There are a lot of excellent breeders who could be award winning if they show chose to do so and as you dubbed, "Big Name herds" that choose to not get involved with the political machine of showing and simply do so for enjoyment. Don't underestimate the abilities of those small breeders nor your capabilities as well. Work hard, learn how to use the genetics and soon you're name will be up there too! We've all started someplace. 
I think Anita summed it up well!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't care who you buy from, really study the pedigrees. It makes absolutly no sense for a new person to buy does from bloodline A and then use bucklings from bloodline B that most of us who have been around awhile know that 'narry the twain should meet'. Most breeders simply won't say publically what they know about the bombshells you cull for in breeding some bloodlines, not until they are on your farm and then the breeder is shocked that this happened, yeah right.

Let breeders cull their own outcrossses, do not buy a doeling or buckling out of a new buck with no ties to the bloodline they are using....let them figure out the feet and legs and bites and udders and then purchase a few years down the road if the bloodline stayed...usually via a junior herd sire.

Look past the posed photos, look at them feet, even on past national champions, really want them in your herd? Really look carefully at the turned away heads, the heads with obvious shadows on the crisp photo everywhere else, really want those bites on your farm? Cause will you really sell them to somebody else? So your going to eat the kids instead...or sell them as pets with paperwork for cheap?

Get help, ask someone who you aren't going to buy from, perhaps someone around a long time but without Nubians. 

Talk to Tim Pruitt, look at his tiny herd, look at the excellent quality year after year of every single animal, and then talk to him about nubian bloodlines. I think everyone with nubians who are new could use Tim's pedigrees as sort of a welcome to nubian goat breeding 101...I wish he would expand his reference animals back to the early 90's so that it is a clearer picture of what foundation he used to achieve what he has. I know I like to see the animals and not just pedigrees via adga.org.

The hardest part of nubians is staying with bloodlines that actually have long level lactations, and don't buy show does, buy kids, or dry yearlings, with the economy/drought/fires you could likely pick some up for inexpensive, likely less than what they would have been sold for as infants on their website...but deposit now what ever you are going to do. By freshening the doe at your house you have such a better idea of what she is actually milking, she hasn't been uddered up over and over for shows or dried up in the past after the show season is over.

If you are going to go to the expense of playing name brand, don't shoot those does in the feet by then breeding to billly bob buck down the road. Whole herd CAE negative tests, and for anything over $600 she should come with a G6S negative test also, stop awarding breeders your money when they are not even following the same rules you will have to, to sell kids out of these animals.

And don't be suprised if you won't be 'graced' with the doeling out of the doe you want...some breeders will only choose animals for you, especially bucks (not just the gentle steering opinon when asked)....others exchange animals within a very tight group and only granddaughters of those does, even though going for hugh sums of money, are given to those who are not showing.

Breeding name brand helps you sell kids, period. But you have to know how to put the name brands together or once again nobody is going to be buying. Vicki


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## R and R Farms (Jul 7, 2008)

Thanks for the good advise. Maybe someone like Tim would be good to look to for a next move. What y'all say explains why I see such poor offspring from such good-looking does in a photo. I'll probably never show a single goat and could possibly butcher every kid born here (though I would rather not), but I still want the best milkers possible for my situation and excellent conformation would be nice as well. :lol........Mike


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

I would expand upon what Vicki said above and visit the ADGA Genetics pages of goats in the herds that catch your eye. Most, though not all, of the breeders who are serious about improving the breed will have Linear Appraisal numbers and milk information on the left side of each animal's page (personally, "Linear History" and "USDA Data" are the two most informative tabs there). Under the Linear History tab, you can see the animal's strengths and weaknesses, and the USDA Data will tell you if the doe is on official milk test, how much she milked, how much butterfat is in her milk, and how much protein. Just keep in mind that milk test numbers can be higher in herds in areas of the country where the challenge of hot weather isn't as great as it is in the South, and/or the producers are managing their herds in order to produce a lot of milk. Hope this helps!

Caroline


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I have one of the big name Nubian breeders in my goat club. All their kids are sold before they hit the ground and at high prices. MY friend bought a Spotlight Sale doe from them several years ago. That doe only won one GCH leg and that was at a show they didn't attend. Their does always beat her. They also beat a daughter I bought from my friend as well as other goats I have with their animals in their pedigrees. I have one doe who went RCH this year when shown against several of their goats. I'm convinced that if I'm to have a goat that will beat them, I'll have to breed her myself. I don't think they will sell a goat to me that will beat theirs. I have a doeling that earned her dry leg competing against them and her bloodlines are mostly NOT theirs, but a smaller local breeder who sells goats at a fraction of what the well known breeder charges. I visited that smaller breeder today to discuss using one or two of her bucks and to look into buying a doeling from her. This is a woman who runs a clean herd and does LA and milk test. No matter what Nubian lines I use, by this time of year, production is down. My Snubian and La Mancha does are my best producers. Of course, I don't run a commercial dairy and my girls are giving more milk than I can use anyway even in fall.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Hmmm... I was thrilled to see the subject on this thread, but not sure I really understand some of the advice and what it means IRL, how to GET the important info that's beyond ADGAgenetics and the web pages.

I ask the breeder, I ask around including here, but mostly the answers seem more political or something other than the data I'm looking for. So I'm still perplexed on this one.

Plus, every breeder says a lot of the same things, "long level lactations, blah blah blah..." and on the occasions when I get actual numbers, they can vary by a multiple from each other but everyone of course say theirs are "great" 

And a lot of the "pretty" stuff that gets talked about so much, isn't translating to more milk here in my little herd, and I hear whispers from others that their "ugliest" doe is often their best milker... While eye candy is an asset to bring to the table, ultimately they are supposed to be DAIRY goats first and foremost, and I see a lot of confusing messages out there about exactly what is quality and how we evaluate it.

Someone said "Beauty's in the eye of the Beholder" and I think there's some truth to that in the larger sense that we'll always be breeding for slightly different emphasis, from the genetics with start with to chose from, or some preference or circumstance we have.

But overall, I'm pretty confused about this topic too, and who I see getting attention for having "great" goats. I realize I'm at that stage where I know just enough to be really confused, LOL, and have lots to learn in this arena.

Lately, I've been joking about the Milk And Smile Index, their MASI number. Heck with shows and stress from striving to live up to some model, maybe I'll just make a simple rating calculation for my spreadsheets that's a combo of how much they milk for how long, and how many times they make me smile and laugh in the process.

On the other hand, I think registering them and having pedigrees for probability is important compared to totally rolling the dice with unregistered goats.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

P.S. once there was a thread started that I think picked a feature and pics were submitted and discussed, did anyone else find that valuable besides me? Like what is flat bone? I want to see side by side pics of flat and round bone so maybe I can understand. Am I the only one?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Anita Martin said:


> I think it would be a big mistake to just lump all big breeders into a category of having kids who will not grow into good home milkers. Certainly they have done a lot of work to get those girls to the point where they can be champions, top ten producers, etc.
> 
> Their management may differ from yours though, as they may feed more grain, for instance, to get those top numbers and show wins.
> 
> ...


Well said, Anita!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I f I look at our herd here, I consider it a 'milking herd with show potential'. Our first doe (Saanen) is a fantastic milker, large doe, good genetics, not so good feet and not stunning, so not a great show goat herself (although she has always done fine at the 4H shows, with several Championships, but I'm talking open shows here). Ever since we bought her, we've decided we are breeding from her and two Saanen yearlings I bought the next year, by using good quality bucks: always with good milk potential, _definitely_ with great legs/feet (you have no car until it has wheels) and then of course good general appearance.

I too believe that people who do great in shows are not going to sell you their next champion, why would they?, so you start with a good/great animal and then you go from there. My daughter has showed in open shows for three years now and we're usually in the 1st-4th place range in class at open shows, and this year had our first jr GCH. Nice, but we really go to shows not to pull in the big win, but to find out if we are going in the right direction with our breeding AND to see what others are doing so we can see what type of animal/direction we would like to go/continue going in. At that same show our older Saanen does got beaten, and rightfully so, by a large breeder/dairy that brought in a heap of beautiful does, very dairy type and on great feet and legs! Setting new goals!!! For us it all comes down to trying to breed that beautiful doe yourself, because there is no way we can afford to buy those big-bucks animals plus it is so much more satisfying to do well with an animal you bred yourself, instead of winning with one you just bought because you could since you had more money than the next guy...


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

I'm still interested in the conformation thread too, Lacia.


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## Aeries09 (May 10, 2011)

Bloodlines will always be an asset, but only if they have the conformation to go with it... I had an incident of buyer beware with a registered, and it's going to cost a few shiny pennies to get her back in good condition. However, the (unregistered stock) experimental that I picked up for dirt-cheap is showing worlds of potential. IMO, it's largely 'to each their own' but a bit of paperwork never hurts. 

Good luck Mike.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

If you re-read Vicki's post and then Lacia's, I think it's a pretty good picture. 
CALL! Talk to breeder's personally--if they tell you this is great and that is great and it will cross with ANYTHING---RUN! I've talked to Vicki and I've talked to Tim and, of course, SherrieC and I work closely together. Honesty is the most important quality that I want from a breeder that I'd be buying from. 
And like Kathie said, it has to be understood that breeders are going to keep their BEST doelings for their own herd. Buy a buck from those same breedings. Then buy doelings that they are offering that will cross well with that buck. I always want to keep/purchase better bucks than the does that I have.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I finished Shoofly from Saada and she came to me as her 3rd owner. Babette from Saada is the best milking nubian line I have ever milked who didn't have an udder down to the ground. Bab's easily could have finsihed, or maybe will as an aged doe, her championship, there are many does who are CH in our area with much less pedigree or apparisal scores. Birdy would have finished her championship, another Saada doe, she routinely beat Shoofly, had she not gotten her salavary cysts, and honestly I always wondered what a judge would have done with her in the line up she still has an E udder. I didn't buy any of these does from Saada, they were purchased by others and were resold to me....so some breeders do sell their best...what they have no control over is what is done with them once they leave.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

I know that not everyone has aspirations to show but you would be surprised just how much you learn attending a few. Breeders will share info with other breeders that they do not share with customers, you see so many goats all in one place, you can compare bloodlines and their features, and just by observation there is a lot to be learned at each single show. Internet and websites in my opinion are only a store front and a good place to start, but it is in the networking with others ... goat people like to talk goats and there is a lot of compiled information when several meet together (show, goat club, convention, etc)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

As long as you understand that there are a lot of big fish small pond type of show circuits....why I think appraisal is so important...a lot less, not completely done away with, but maybe as good as we can get away from collar points.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

"As long as you understand that there are a lot of big fish small pond type of show circuits"
AMEN!

As with any other association you will find the "my goat is better than your goat" scenario. Somewhere in the mix of it all is some darn good breeders who will work with you. As said above, talk to breeders. Some have likes that others don't which might suit what you are looking for in an animal. Just like cars there are different types and styles of goats. Long bodies, medium bodies, ect...ect...it is all in what the breeder sees as to what they breed for. And although there are regulations within ADGA we all strive to have the "BEST" . Please, also look for a breeder that will tell you like it is and don't be disheartened by their words. More than likely its the truth and though it might sting, that is the breeder you want to do business with...the one that will tell you the truth whether you like it or not. I have several that I claim as mentor/friend, and would have it no other way. 
Tam


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

Amen


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## DawnBreakers (Sep 20, 2011)

My problem is that I can't get any results off the Genetics site. I have tried sooo many different times and ways...nada! I don't know if it's me or what, but I can't get anything!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

When Gene's first version came out I had a friend on the phone while I was on my computer and she told me how to navigate it...I am such a visual learner, once I do something once I can figure it out from there. Perhaps phone a friend who knows how to work it and have them walk you through it while you both are on the site?


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> ...Talk to Tim Pruitt, look at his tiny herd, look at the excellent quality year after year of every single animal,


Ok, talking to Tim here... 

What's your key to getting quality in every single animal in a tiny herd?


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> What's your key to getting quality in every single animal in a tiny herd?


Wow! I wish it were true that I could do that. Really! I am not the Nubian guru - of all the breeders, Karen Senn has more Champions and more National wins than anyone I know and there are many other breeders that have beautiful animals too. While we do have some quality animals, there is no herd without its culls or no goat without its faults. Really, consistency in Nubians is not magic. It is a combination of God's blessings, management and learning something of bloodlines and how to breed them.

I have said that within the Nubian breed there is probably about 10-15% that are really show quality. There is about 50 -60% good utility milkers and the rest go down from there. No breeder - no matter how popular the lines - are without utility (mediocre - or just so-so) animals.

1.	God's favor - some of this is purely His favor. Some of you would call this "luck" - Some does never reach their potential because of accidents or disease. Some show does will never show well due to travel, new environment and stress at the show, some actually quit milking and won't eat or drink. Our doe, SGCH Huckleberry was injured by being thrown in the trailer while travelling and that caused her knee to swell to baseball size - ruining her chance for a National Show win. Similar to a ball team, your best player can quickly be eliminated from the game.
2.	Management - No matter how great of genetic potential you purchase, management will play a huge role on their outcome. We sold 2 kids from SGCH Honeysuckle to some newbies. They were told (by another breeder) that success was 20% genetics and 80% management. Determined to do their 80%, they overfed these animals to the point of founder. They returned these kids to me for having a genetic fault with bad overturned feet. They were beautiful, tall big kids but were nearly foundered. I adjusted their diet and backed way off the protein and with proper hoof trimming, the doe kid went on to become the Reserve National Champion. Her brother, Apollo has been 2X Champion and appraises 90VEE at 2 years of age. In the hands of these newbies, these animals were culls, under proper management they are champions.
3.	Bloodlines - there are bloodlines that don't mix well but at some point, a breeder needs to go out of their lines to add something new. This brings a hybrid vigor and vitality to the herd. However, this outcross will not be their tried and true bloodlines. When you go out for new blood, you must not simply consider what you will get that you want but also what you didn't want. Although we all try to breed for the whole goat (General appearance, dairy character, body capacity and mammary) most breeders will emphasize more on GA or mamaries. Some lines may emphasize mammaries with less emphasis on general appearance or body capacity for example. Another likes a very elegant and stylish animal and yet while they want that high beautiful mammary, they will not sacrifice the GA and DC for mammary height. I am going to speak in general terms here. In the Nubian's recent past, there were 3 basic lines, Cadillac (general appearance), Conquest (mammaries) and Frosty Marvin lines. The Cadillac (generally speaking) were smaller yet stylish animals with beautiful dairy character but lacked breed character. 
The Conquest lines were shorter bodied, lacking body capacity but had socked on mammaries. The Marvin lines were large, tall and had more milk but dippy toplines and lacked the dairy character and were less refined than other lines. Many of the past National Champions were either the best of these three lines or a careful combination of Cadillac, Marvin and Conquest. Today's Nubians are now further removed from any of these old herds but yet some of these traits are emphasized in almost every line that exist today. Of the lines that exist today, I cannot speak publically about them without hurting feelings of the present breeders or their friends. You, yourself will have to study each line to see what they are most consistent at producing. As a breeder, even though we all try to breed for the "whole" goat, your lines will probably be stronger in one category than another. Even then within your own herd, there might be some that are stronger in one area of the scorecard than the other. Learning to recognize the weakness of your doe(s) and then trying to breed them to that right buck is challenge that we all face. There is nothing magic - each breeding holds its own surprises, hopes and dreams. No animal is perfect and there is something about every National Champion you would change.


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## Golden_Seal (Sep 14, 2011)

Wow! I wish I had someone who knew as much as you do by me. I have to figure most out on my own. I would love to hear how you manage your herd. Feed, every ing. I'd love to pick your brain for a while on it  I love the nubian breed but unfortunately I have troubles picking out traits I REALLY need to work on and what I need to look for in a buck. Thank you for that information you provided here!


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## doodles (Nov 1, 2007)

It is never as easy as just "doing what someone else does". You need to learn by experience to really learn it. Don't try to imitate someone else ...there are so many right ways and you will find what works in your herd. Study Study Study. Be patient and learn to put the pieces of the puzzle together in your own personal herd that will bear your "type". Most of all be diligent in all that you do.
Your joy in the personal success that you have will be ten fold any "ready bought "goat.Good Luck!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Love that Angela~ excellent post.
Lee (still being patient :biggrin)


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

Excellent topic  For me, I do not want to recreate the wheel. I want to admire someone's herd and do exactly what they do so my goats will thrive. I am an excellent student, striving to take notes and being able to figure out how to fix a current problem without running to DGI every minute  Unfortunately, Vicki knows me all to well  I do not show, nor will I, but I want every animal on my farm to look like I do. I love a beautiful, graceful goat roaming around my backyard - being able to handled by even my most fragile, down syndrome son! I am so thankful for this forum, and I too am still being patient!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

doodles said:


> ...Be patient...


What's that word? :grin

Sigh... getting in line with the others...maybe we should put in our signatures how long we've been... whatever that word is... do we have to do it gracefully too?

Seriously well written post Tim!

How many years back are you talking with those 3 herds/lines?

Now, for mini-LM's, who has that kind of history and insight into BOTH/either the LaMancha and Nigerian Dwarf foundation genetics? :biggrin


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

The ND foundation is small. Most of our goats are highly related. I traced some of my old NDs back to the zoos with the same ancestor repeated over and over and over. People speak of NDs as being hardy, but I didn't find that to be true. I guess cause I was raising them along with Mini Nubians and all that hybrid vigor. When I select foundation animals for minis, I look for milk stars in the pedigree cause I want some assurance they make milk (all AGS purebred NDs do not have the milk genes, I imagine the same can be said for the standards), strong breed character, good legs and angles. 

But anyway, as far as NDs go, people that speak of good lines are not looking that far back generally, because 4-6 gen back we all start at the same place. This is why I feel the best insurance when shopping for NDs is a history of milk tests.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I suppose that's true about milk test records, I like that myself too, but so few seem to be on Test... and I think there's good herds that just aren't doing Test yet?

How did you trace back your ND's as far back as the zoos? Most of the ADGA genetics ND pedigrees I've looked at don't go back very far.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Golden_Seal said:


> Wow! I wish I had someone who knew as much as you do by me. I have to figure most out on my own. I would love to hear how you manage your herd. Feed, every ing. I'd love to pick your brain for a while on it  I love the nubian breed but unfortunately I have troubles picking out traits I REALLY need to work on and what I need to look for in a buck. Thank you for that information you provided here!


Crystal: Look in GK101. Tim has an article in there on raising bucks. It's excellent (as was this post, too - thanks, Tim)!

And while I agree with Angela, you do have to learn yourself (and I'm still learning a lot), to have someone/people that you TRUST and you like their animals, and you are just starting out or know you're going down the wrong path, I see nothing wrong with mimicking their management as a starting point (or new beginning) and then tweaking from there.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2011)

The ND breed is relatively new and so it does go back to the same few ancestors..its not hard to find... AGS who registered them first are the best records to look thru for them.. And no there aren't many that milk them.. they just show them and then dry them up after the show season.. But there are some wonderful milkers out there..and it takes some trial and error just like the other breeds to find them, breed them etc.. I milk my girls 305 days and sometimes longer.. My aim is for long level lactations (just like the bigger breeds) capacity and nice sized teats that milk easy.. They are hardy, very hardy, they can take the cold here in Michigan very well and I don't have any issues with illnesses, but then I have a herd that was all born here, and have honed my managment skills to where it should be with feed, etc... Used to have way to fat goats etc...many years ago...
Barb


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Lacia: There is a yahoo group that Bill (a member here) runs called Diary Goat History, a few days ago a lot of information was being posted to the files on the Nigerians. If you're interested join and check it out!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

ADGA is not the source of info on NDs as they are a recent addition. The database is incomplete. Also alot of the milk stars and show wins are under AGS not ADGA. You can get info from AGS, but there is also a ton of info on the web - alot of time you can see photographs too. I just search for specific animals and see what turns up. IDGR is also a resouce. It is a little known fact that IDGR was the first to register NDs. Alot of what I used to have traced back to Gladys Porter Zoo (GPZ). I haven't searched out my new guys that far.

I think there are good animals not on milk test, but for breeding minis, I want some assurances up front. IDGR has a 30 day milk test, and I hope to participate next year. I'd really like my line to trace back to milk stars.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Tim also has an article in GK101 titled 'Why do we fail with dairy goats' that is AWESOME. Should be required reading for anyone getting into goats.  Love his line--"Think delicious and not cute. Cute kids look delicious on the dinner table." LOL---but, oh, sooooo true.

Goat friends/mentors are irreplaceable when it comes to breeding. DGI is a great place for help/advice/sharing, but *most*  people will tell you soooo much more privately that publicly. Talk to the breeder you're buying from about what crosses well and what doesn't and WHY (that's the one that always gets me <rolleyes>). And if they don't know, then look back in your goats pedigree and call the breeders your goats are descended from. Goat breeders love to talk 'goat' and I've found that most of the larger breeders are proud that you have have goats from their herds and are asking advise on how to improve them.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki, I'm curious as to how your Saada does would do if you showed them against Saada. This is what I would be up against if I purchased from them. My doe, Colette who went RCH to one of their does this summer is out of a buck I got from Mary Lou. His sire is the buck you sold her and his dam a Saada doe. She's the nicest doe I got out of that buck, the second nicest, being my three year old Rose, whose dam also has Saada in her lines. I have beautiful does, but just can't seem to beat their senior does with mine. Maybe I should haul them to Texas shows and kick some butt.
Tim, I get what you say about even the nicest goats having faults. The doe who went GCH at the show and beat Colette is a big powerful girl with a beautiful mammary, but Colette has a better topline than she does. 
Denise, you're right about many of the big breeders liking to talk goats. One of the highlights of attending shows for me is visiting with Laura from Saada about everything from bloodlines to management. One suggestion she's given me is to learn it AI. She could then sell me semen that should cross with what I have. I really wish I lived closer to my Nubian breeder friend, Elaine who does know how to AI.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

By learning how to AI, you can have access to "the best of the best" genetics. The AI technique is not hard, you have to learn the right time to breed. It is always best to have your own equipment readily available to you, including semen. AI is a wonderful tool, and the more you do it, the easier it gets and the better success rate you have. I've never taken a class, just watched and assisted a friend AI some does. I was able to get 6 does out of the 8 that I AI'd to settle last year.


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## Golden_Seal (Sep 14, 2011)

Yeah good bucks via AI don't really exsist here. It seems that not many people in Canada take breeding that seriously. I am looking into getting a tank and supplies but it will only be for my own bucks because there isn't really ant quality semen and shipping from the US is to costly and not many are willing to do it. I want to learn to AI for my own management skill but, sadly, I doubt I will be able to really use semen from good herds.


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## NorthOf49 (Feb 8, 2011)

Crystal, are there many decent American Nubian bucks qualified for export to Canada? I think AI is a very valuable tool for us Canadian breeders because like you say, there aren't that many readily available genetics. There is one place that sells semen in Canada that I found: OC Flock Management in Alberta (http://www.ocflock.com/nubian.html), and I think once you learn to AI it will open doors. Personally I'm planning to learn to AI and then I'm hoping to use the chilled semen transport system in place for dogs and horses (https://www.cloneusa.com/chilled.html#Clone Kit) to access animals that haven't been collected to tanks. There are a few bucks (at least with Alpines) that come with big names that have recently been imported so I think we do have some good genetics here in Canada, we just have to figure out how to utilize them and work on our show infrastructure to showcase and refine them. At least that's my thinking... we have to start building what we have. I think with Nubians you have more importable semen... I got my BioGenics catalogue the other day and I think there was at least 2 Nubians cleared for export (I think???) but no Alpines.


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## Golden_Seal (Sep 14, 2011)

Oh it costs about 1000 to import the semen plus the cost of the semen (I've looked into it). While there is I think four bucks from that place is Alberta as far as I know that's it. It's nothing like the vast selection of quality semen the US has. It is a very expensive
Process for the buck to be elegible for semen exported out of the US. It might be good to try once I'm perfect at AI'ing. I wish Canadian's would preserve their genetics better and offer it to others like the US breeders. For now, all I can do it preserve my own and go from there.


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Wow Crystal & Christine,..........didn't realize that there were so many restrictions involved pertaining to importing goat semen from us over the border nor about the preservation concerns. I kind of lost track of importing after the ban of importing live goats about 10 yrs ago. Wait a sec.......I know an Alpine breeder up in Canada with awesome genetics who may be able to help you with contacts, information, etc. I'll PM you both the name if you are interested. The name just came to mind as I was thinking back about a buck I wanted so much and then the ban hit!


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## Golden_Seal (Sep 14, 2011)

The border is open to exporting bucks from the US into Canada. I'm bring up two bucks from Saada next year. Again you are spending around 500+ (depends on the breeders vet) on health and shipping papers plus the cost of the buck. Then you need to drive to the border and bring him across.


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## NorthOf49 (Feb 8, 2011)

Yup, we can still import bucklings which a lot of people are doing, but I understood earlier that females are out though I can't find the data on that anymore. I THINK it was because they have to come from a scrapie certified herd and go into a scrapie certified herd and we here don't have anything that qualifies as scrapie certified?? But I just looked into it now and I can't find that info anymore since it looks like we do have a scrapie flock certification program... Virginia, if you're talking about the Qu'Appelle herd I don't think she's breeding anymore.  Thankfully you can find a lot of her genetics in many of the Alpine herds.


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## Golden_Seal (Sep 14, 2011)

Yeah both sides have to be in the scrapies program for 18 months and good luck finding good herds that are. They are unwilling to send in the head of a two year old doe (rightfully so!) for inspection every couple years. At least for now Canadians do have access to the bucks.


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Thanks for the updates ladies! I was aware that the ban had been lifted but hadn't looked into the details. That has to be so frustrating to be limited in genetics with the regs and to just bucks! Not to mention the expense! Is your scrapie program mandatory or volunteer? So much has changed in 10 years since the hoof and mouth scare! I grew up not far from the Canadian border and enjoyed freely traveling across the Peace Bridge or Rainbow Bridge into Canada. Hard to believe one needs a passport now. 


No, not the Qu'Appelle herd, someone else, although I have admired her herd for years! And yes, her genetics are very prevalent. I have always been a huge fan of the old national GCH Wa-Shaw-Me Snowbird. Snowbird was prominent in her herd as was Sand Dance which seemed to cross well. I had heard that things were changing for her and she was experiencing competition difficulties. Wow......another legend gone?


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

No doubt Appraisal scores can tell you a lot but what seems to have been overlooked (or maybe I missed it) is DHIR or production scores. 

If you are looking for milk you really need to pay attention to the dam and sires production records. If I was buying for milk I would either want to see the doe milked twice in 24 hours (if buying a mature doe from someone not on test), or see the dam's milk records and on the relative's of the buck and dam if reserving a kid.

There are a lot of show goats (and I have a couple in my herd) who may apprasie and show great but dont give real high volumes.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

If you can get an awesome buckling every couple/few years, then collect him and put him in the tank when the next one arrives, then you can go back and linebreed on the one in the tank if its a good match for a specific doe. You'd be working on refining a very consistent genetic line for yourself.


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