# Purebred vs. American in a Nubian



## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Can someone explain to me what this is? I don't mean to sound stupid, but if they are registered with ADGA as a Nubian, how would there be a difference?

I just got another herd buckling to go with my herd. I see a several Lonesome doe lines in the dam pedigree, along with Lynnhaven's Great Expectations (twice). On the sires pedigree, there is some Cherry-Hill lines, but I don't recognize any of the others. Since I'm new to this I wouldn't know really who is who. I have only learned from DGI some things about "Saada, Kastdemur, Lonesome Doe, etc. lines) but I don't know all of them.

He is a pretty buck, but I certainly don't want to do any "wrong" breedings if you can understand what I mean? I am planning on breeding him to my Saada doe, of course the offspring can't be registered because I still cannot see the tattoo in her ear to get her registered.

Help me understand please :biggrin


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

First with the American vs Purebred. Unlike swiss breeds, like Alpines, american nubians have not proved their worth like American Alpines have.

American means that somewhere in the pedigree is an unknown goat, either because it was never registered, it was some other breed or paperwork was lost or not forwarded. 

I am Lonesome Doe so can help you with the sire line and since my partner and I brought in so many of the Saada animals into our area, I could likely help you figure out something on your doe. If she is Saada she belonged to someone at one point, she certainly did not leave Laura's without her tattoos, and someone paid dear for her. We could take a light to the back of her ears and read the tattoo, if she has some age to her she also may only have right ear tattoos, all of my original Saada does only had right ear tattoos (much to the chagrin of show secretaries and new judges  If she is also one of mine and only out of one of my Saada does, she will have a tattoo somewhere else on her body and was sold without paperwork. You will have to bring her here for me to look at her to help you with that.

You can privately tell me who you purchased her from etc....not many stories in the Nubian world are ever kept secret, we likely can find out something on her.

If worse comes to worse you can certainly register her kids off the bucks paperwork. I am just north of you up in Cleveland, your more than welcome to contact me, love to talk pedigree. 281-592-3039 Vicki


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

I'd like to add that American does can be just as good as purebred, and some high placing does have been American. It can be hard to sell a buckling from an American though, that is why I personally don't have any. I am all about simplicity. =) Lots of popular breeders do have them though. Including Hoanbu.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

A new small herd can not take the hit of their bucklings not selling, and their doelings selling for at least a hundred dollars less. Even national champions. When there are as many winners that are American or more, like in American Alpines, then prices and peoples attitudes will change. Cost exactly the same to raise both, so why start off in the hole? Vicki


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## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

The American in question is on my little bucklings pedigree. His sire, WOODCREEK FARM PROUD ROMEY, is supposed to be registered American and his dam, THE HAPPY BLEATS PRINCESS MIA is supposed to be Purebred. The dam, Princess Mia has Lonesome Doe 4 times in her Grand-parentage, and that is where the Lynnehaven lines come in too (connected to Lonesome Doe). Anyway, my buckling's sire, when I look at his lineage at ADGA, I don't see anything or anyone "missing" or "simply" named like I would when looking through say the AQHA pedigree site. 

My Saada doe is the one that I got from Ray Adams at Rambar Ranch. He is perfectly willing to help me get this does papers IF I can get him the tattoo out of her ear. I watched him tattoo her, so I know it is there, I just cannot see it even with a flash light behind the ear. We have tried in the daylight, at night, in the barn (little light), all times during the day with no luck. Her sire is SAADA LORD ORIAN, and Ray knows who the dam is, but when my house burned down, so did the registration application. He doesn't have all of his records now that he sold all of his Nubian herd, so he can't find where he sold me this doe. Sooo, here I am with a doe with nice breeding but can't register her or offspring :/ 

So I guess with my American vs Purebred would be will I be doing an injustice to the Nubian breed by breeding my buck (who does have some nice lineage w/Lonesome Doe) but has American sire? When I saw this buck had Lonesome Doe in his lineage, that was the selling point. I know that you, Vicki are the breeder, and I also know that you wouldn't breed an inferior goat, so, I bought him. I did not know until later, that this bucks sire was American.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Does the ADGA genetics site list breed anywhere? I haven't been able to find it, but it would be handy. Guessing that at some point in this buck's pedigree, is a breed other than Nubian.

If you can't get the tattoo read, and do get others who are good tattoo-readers to try, you could always register her NOA, and show in grade classes. Her offspring will be 50% grade (does only) if bred to a reg. buck. Her grand-daughters will be 75% grade, and I think that the next generation after that is American. So, all hope is not lost if you don't mind breeding Americans.

I know nothing about Nubians, so the rest of the American vs. Purebred stuff is beyond me.


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## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Well, no, it doesn't say the "breed" persay, but it does (if you mouse over the names) if they are PB or AM. I think I found the culprit. On the sire's side WAY back in the late 70's was a doe born named FROGMOOR MASTER GRACIE. There is NO record as to her dam's side at ALL. It is all blank, even her dam is blank. This doe, Frogmoor Master Gracie is considered American. Her sire's side is ALL PB. So it all falls on this one doe that makes my buck's sire American, which I'm sure is going to mean that all of my stock out of this buck will be considered American too :/ I just hope that I can produce enough good animals to prove he is worth breeding.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I do t understand. Why can't he just request papers and get the tattoo off the papers?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You can't look at a good line that is 2 or 3 generations back and think that you are bringing it forward with the use of this buck. GE (Lynnhaven Great Expectations 90EEE) was an excellent buck, but reaching back that far you are spinning your wheels. I have a son of GE's here out of a 90EEEE doe, and also Hendrix (Lynnhaven The Watchtower) on my website, that would be a much better breeding, or like I said in the PM if you are buying something from Lucille, perhaps she will breed your doe.

With just the application lost, it should not be to hard to figure out who this doe is, although being out of Saada bloodlines does not make her a SAADA doe. Same with your buck, who he will likely throw onto his daughter will not be his Grand and Great Grandam but his dam....so what does she look like? Vicki


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Lucille's buck is related to TLC Belle Starr isn't he? Does she have a Saada buck too?


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## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Jamie, the only buck that I know of that Lucille has is Titus. Unless she is keeping a buckling from the "Shroom" breeding, which I don't think she is.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

I think Titus is TLC Farm's Sam's Belle Starr's (a doe I just love, and have a doeling from) son.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

If your doe with the Saada ancestry is truly lovely, I'd register her NOA and show her. I know there is the prejudice against Americans, but I breed them as well as purebred Nubians. My best doe is an American. I sometimes use her son on purebred does. She usually has bucks, though she did give me a doeling this year who will definately be retained. Where I live, I really can't get more for the purebreds. I retain goats based on their quality. I actually wethered two purebred boys because their ears aren't correct and am retaining an American buckling because he's so sharp looking. I also lost his dam this year and she did come from Saada bloodlines.
Vicki is correct about a doe not being a Saada doe if they did not breed her. Laura is very frank about that. They not only have the genetics, but their management also contributes to the goats they show. They will be consigning a doeling at the spotlight sale this year if you want a chance at owning a Saada goat.


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## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Ashley said:


> I do t understand. Why can't he just request papers and get the tattoo off the papers?


Because the doe was a doeling when I bought her and had not been previously registered. I would be the one to register her and didn't get it done before my house burned down. So since he sold the Nubian herd all the records went with them so he can't look up the information he needs. I know the date of birth, he knows the sire and dam, and I know when they were paid for, but he still needs more information to get me another set of application papers.

Kathie, I would love to show her, but honestly, I will be breeding to get a better udder out of her. She has raised and weaned 2 doelings this year, but her udder needs improvement which will have to come through her doe kids and breeding to the right buck. I posted a picture of her udder (2 days after kidding) here --> http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=22463.0 Her doe kids are doing great, and I sold them to a neighbor who has wanted kids from this doe, she doesn't care if they are registered or not, she wants milk and she just adores my doe. Here is a picture of my doe (Saada lines). She isn't as fat as I'd like, but she is doing much better after the wormings.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Yes, she was chained to the fence for a time when I was cleaning pens.


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## Angelknitter12 (Feb 16, 2012)

She could be a twin to one of my does, which I sold this weekend. Not even a tiny difference.


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## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Well I have some really good news about this doe. Ray did contact me and he said he has found the information he needs to send me the application to register this doe. I am soooo excited! He also corrected me in who the sire to this doe is. It isn't Saada Lord Orian, it is none other than Lonesome-Doe W-D Forty. So that should still mean she has a good sire =D 

Kami, if your doe looked like her, she had to be hard for you to sell!


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Good news! And a lovely doe!


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

<<Jamie, the only buck that I know of that Lucille has is Titus.>>

Lucille's Titus is out of our SGCH TLC-Farms Sam's Belle Starr, one of the best does I've ever bred as far as passing her incredible udder genetics on to her doe kids. Titus' sire is Candy's Kids Fay's Samson, a son of Kastemur's LE Exacta, who produced several finished champions and superior genetics animals in Karen Senn's herd. Titus is a Purebred Nubian.


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 10, 2009)

Qz Sioux said:


> Anyway, my buckling's sire, when I look at his lineage at ADGA, I don't see anything or anyone "missing" or "simply" named like I would when looking through say the AQHA pedigree site.


He actually has 2 AM relative lines on the dam side, from TINGENUITY PRINCESS - N001212171. If you follow his pedigree all the way back to 1971 he has a Registered Grade Experimental on the dam extreme line (DDDDDDDDD, etc). If you follow the sires line and follow the extreme dam line it ends at FROGMOOR MASTER GRACIE - N000356068 (RG Doe)
DOB: 4/9/1979, where the doe is unknown (SDDDDDD, etc..) its those two unknowns that make him an American, so they could have bred to a Swiss breed for an experimental, or another breed of goat and just wanted to register the offspring as Dairy or the dam might have been NOA Nubian, but unregistered.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Your buck's family tree contains some interesting members - High Caliber Marvin's Big Max, a buck in your buck's background, has sired 221 registered animals since being born in 1985 (he was still being used through AI as recently as three years ago), 29 of who were either SG, CH or GCH - there are a number of polled animals (denoted by the green highlighting on the pedigrees in ADGA Genetics). I do love combing through the ADGA Genetics database. It contains a lot of wonderful information in it.


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## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Well that certainly makes me feel better. Wow, polled huh? That would be so cool! I have a doe now that is half Nubian half Alpine that is polled, and so is her daughter. Maybe he won't be such a bad buck. I hope not, but I will be waiting to breed him to the new doe I just got from Lucille. I'm getting ready to load her parentage in the ADGA pedigree thingy. I already know Titus, but it will be her dam I'll be wanting to look at as well.


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

Polled is dominant, so the buck would need to be polled to pass the gene onto his offspring. It is a shame so many of the polled genetics in the Nubians are no more. Polled is a nice little bonus when raising kids.


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## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

That is interesting. I say this because the Nubian/Alpine doe I have is polled. She was bred to a horned mini Nubian. Both of her daughters are polled. Now I do know that you don't want to breed a polled to a polled, something about it being a "bad" thing, but I'm planning on breeding one of the daughters to this new buck I have, who was disbudded. It will be interesting to see what becomes of that breeding. It is a nice bonus and I think that the goats that are naturally polled look better, and of course you don't have to go through the trouble of disbudding or scurs.


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

It tends to end up being 50% polled overtime. Each litter will have varying numbers. This year, our polled animals have given us more than 50% horned so far, unfortunately. Only 8 out of 21 kids from polled breedings have been naturally polled this year.
There are breeders that breed polled to polled on a regular basis and do not see an increase in hermaphrodites.
I wouldn't likely try it with mine, since my pool is smaller and not one I want to breed that closely on.
Hopefully your polled doeling will produce some nice polled offspring with your buck. She, along with her sister, (and likely their dam) are both heterozygous polled.


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