# IM shot question



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I have instructions to give my buck that was just dehorned on Wed and as of this morning has developed a systemic infection (106 temp and oozing smelly puss out of sinus cavity) 8cc shots of Pen G twice daily and banamine once daily. Banamine, just to stick the full length of the 1" needle in the back of back leg at top in meaty tissue and shoot. Easy enough with buck in milkstand and help holding him steady. Pen G to stick it in, pull back on plunger to insure I don't get any blood in syringe and I haven't hit a BV and then if no blood, to shoot it in. If I get blood in syringe, to pull needle out, and try another spot. I'm doing all this with explanations only, no visuals.

So I just gave the 2nd dose of Pen G (first I gave SQ b/c I didn't know to give it IM until I went to vet and picked up banamine) and did as she said. I was told to expect that he wouldn't like it much, and he didn't.

I didn't get any blood in the syringe when pulling back on the plunger, so I went ahead and gave the shot. But when I pulled out the needle, some blood dripped out of the injection site, as did some of the Pen (I put 10 cc in the syringe just in case I lost some and b/c I only had 6 cc syringes this morning). So I'm not concerned about losing some of of the Pen out of the injection site, but wondering about the blood and why did anything drip out? _Am I doing something wrong? Is this normal?_

Incidentally, temp tonight was down to 102.8 so the banamine this afternoon did help. Hoping I don't screw up the Pen. And yes, I did ask about getting a stronger antibiotic, but vet wants to start with this and report progress on Monday am.

Thanks!


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

If it was just a drip, it was probably fine. Could be some small capillaries or even a very small vein that the needle went through BEFORE it got all the way into the muscle. If you were actually in a vein when the needle was all the way in, you would have gotten blood in the syringe as you pulled it back before you gave the injection. (If you're in a vein, then the medicine would be IV rather than IM, and that's not how you would want this medicine delivered.) The procedure for animals is the same as for people, and so if you've ever gotten a shot in your upper arm and had a drop of blood afterwards, well, there ya go. I would make sure that you have injected all of the meds before you start to withdraw the needle and sometimes it helps to massage the injection site a bit afterwards. (Helps distribute the meds a bit, can distract the animal if it's stinging a little...IM injections are more uncomfortable than SQ.)


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2009)

I would not be too worried. I gave several shot I/M today and one of the girls had a drop of blood. She is still walking. :biggrin


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

I agree with those above. You did it right. Be sure that you don't use the same site for each injectin. Pen G is thick and will make him sore. Be sure to rotate between both legs.
Theresa


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks, y'all. Vet did say to do one let am, the other pm. Maybe I did begin to w/draw needle before all meds were in.. that would explain why some meds dripped out. I'll work on that. Probably a result of my squeamishness in the matter. I hate that in the process of taking care of this infection that I'll be making him sore, but I guess you do what ya gotta do, huh?


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

It's better he be sore from the injection then have the infection. You just have to do it. And some of the medication might leak out even if you do it exactly right, so don't worry about that. And just think, in a few days your buck will be better and you will be a pro at giving shots! 
Theresa


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

One shot of pennicillin each day isn't enough, and no over the counter med should be given IM in a goat, you could show your vet this advice in the Goat Medicine vet text. 3cc per 50 pounds given every 12 hours is how you give pen, and it also isn't the drug of choice for upper respirtory anyway. If you are only going to use an OTC than use tetracycline any 200 mg is given at 3.5cc loading doses every 12 hours subq for a few days then 1 time a day. The only improvement you are going to see intitally is from the banamine, continue using it for the full 6 days. I am pretty shocked a vet would have you using penn with so many better meds he could have given you. Vicki


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## Sharpgoat (Feb 7, 2008)

:yeahthat 
I raise meat goats and you don't wont to damage muscle and a dairy goat can have less muscle then a meat goat.
Goats have a skin that can be pulled out to make a tent they are ideal for Sq shots.
I would go with what Vicki suggested tetracycline. :yes
I just had a upper respiratory infection go through my meat herd of goats and tetracycline did the job for them.
Fran


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

Am I confused here?? I did not think he had a upper respiratory infection, or is that what Systemic means...I thought that he had a infection in the surgery site (scur removal) that has now spread and is causing fever...I admit to being a big time newbie so I may have misunderstood. Usually Billies's vet, she is also my vet is pretty good with goats.

Paula


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I'm giving the IM shots twice daily. I will ask her again Monday about another antibiotic that maybe I don't have to do quite so long. I'm giving 8ccs at each shot. The banamine, she only gave me for 3 days, not 6. :/

Do you think this is upper respiratory? I suppose, since it is from an infection within the sinus cavity, it is. I just hadn't thought about it that way... Even with the vet wrap on for a day after the dehorning, when I took it off, I saw that he managed to get some alfalfa dust in it, and that the oozing had started to scab over, even though these holes were supposed to be worse than my other buck. I had anticipated that the ooze would wash anything out, like my other buck, but it didn't have a chance. As nice as it was not to have to look at it for a day with the wrap on, I wonder if that made matters worse?

No kidding that dairy goats have less muscle. And he's under a year, in rut, and very dairy. Finding muscle isn't all that easy, especially since I've never seen this done before. I said that I'm far more comfortable with SQ injections, but she said that at least until we get the infection under control, I need to do IM. But... with the banamine, how do I know I'm getting it under control? It's not like taking his temperature or his behavior are indicators since I've given a fever reducer/pain reliever... But today when it was time for his next dose of banamine, his temp was still normal...

Ugh. I can see me taking him in Monday...

I also know that I should get some of the Pen in the cavity, but haven't been able to yet. It's closed up with the puss, and he wiggles his head soooo much. 

As difficult as this has been, I wonder if I'll ever be a pro at giving shots, but thanks, Theresa, for the encouragement.  I'm dreading going out in an hour to give today's 2nd dose...


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Paula, the scur removal included holes through the skull. (She said that she never would have guessed it to look at him, but once she got in there, his were worse than any of the others in my herd.) This left the sinus cavity open. Before all the puss, I could see right down into the sinus cavity. I imagine that since it is the sinuses that are oozing the puss that this makes it an upper respiratory?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You should be flushing the wound with peroxide so you then can put the penn in the wound. If you just superglue gauze to his hair around the site, it will let more air in and no dust. Vet wrap smoothers it. I sure hope he is up to date on his tetanus including antitoxin every 10 days until he is healed.

Penn is fine for profilactic use of wounds, but once you have a wound infection you need to treat it, and systemic injections of penn isn't enough.

Bacterial infection is a bacterial infection, the body doesn't know if it's from a wound or from a bacteria like pasturella. Vicki


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## Haglerfarm (Aug 11, 2008)

I agree with Vicki on how to give the shots. There is hardly any meds that you have to give a goat IM.
I know lots do and that is OK. I don't. According to small ruminant information given to my vet is that SQ shots in goats get in the system just about as fast as IM. So why give it that way. You run much less risk of having a reaction, hitting a vein/artery or nerve.
If it is an infection from the dehorning then pen might be OK. If it is an upper respiratory then it is useless. 
I agree with putting the gauze on it and not vet wrap. It needs air, but trying to keep out the big stuff.
I also would put the pen on the wound. Do I remember you saying the vet told you to do that?
Les


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I told DH today (and yesterday) that we needed to flush the wound. Thought saline. You think peroxide? Down in the sinuses? I hope that squirting the saline will take the puss off the top so it can get down inside... otherwise it's just going to be loads of fun! Goal for tonight is to do the IM shot, flush wound, and get Pen down in there. The vet wrap is gone. That was just for the first day, she said.

Yes, Les, vet had said to put Pen in wound after I took the vet wrap off Thurs. Thurs & Fri, DH was off to work before I got up and home after I went to bed and I couldn't do it w/o help. Since Tripoli's did so well, I thought I'd be fine to wait until Sat. Obviously, I was very very wrong. 

We'll see how tonight goes. I'm dreading it and feeling in over my head... Maybe I'll go back to the SQ injection tonight and make the big task dealing with that wound.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Alrighty. I'm a really really big wuss. Threw up before doing tonight's ugly task, just at the thought of doing it. Did the shot SQ. Even with him in the milkstand and my husband (who's no weakling) holding him, he wiggled so much, I had to stick him 4 times to get all 8 cc's in. Had to switch needles after the first 2 sticks. These must be cheap b/c they sure got dull fast. Was a good time to have a cry and let Jarlath rest and eat some before sticking him again. 

So then on to the wound. Squirted saline in an attempt to loosen the top and clean it out. It cleaned off all the stuff that had oozed out previously, which did improve the smell, but it didn't open up the cavity again. They have some pretty thick puss scabs. I tried cleaning with sterile gauze, but again, he's a feisty fart. The banamine is definitely working because my husband couldn't even hold his head still in the stanchion. So, we thought maybe if I can just get the needle in and shoot in some Pen... wrong. Can't tell you how many times I almost stuck David instead and I certainly couldn't get anywhere near where I needed to be on Jarlath's head. 

Looks like I might take Jarlath up tomorrow and see if she can help me more....


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## SheriM (Jan 20, 2009)

stoneyheightsfarm said:


> Paula, the scur removal included holes through the skull. (She said that she never would have guessed it to look at him, but once she got in there, his were worse than any of the others in my herd.) This left the sinus cavity open. Before all the puss, I could see right down into the sinus cavity. I imagine that since it is the sinuses that are oozing the puss that this makes it an upper respiratory?


Not Paula, but just a thought here. The sinuses are only marginally considered part of the respiratory system. They serve to help warm and moisturize the air we (or a goat) breathes in. Unless the puss has drained down into his lungs, you aren't really dealing with an upper respiratory infection. Agreed, Pen G isn't great on URI, but if (and sometimes that a big IF) your vet is experienced with goats, I would go with his/her recommendations, but it sure wouldn't hurt to discuss what you've read here and see what he/she has to say.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Ok-I'm a total newbie here. Haven't had to do an IM yet. Getting better at the SQ. (I don't like needles to start with.  ) 

You really have to inject it in the cavity with the needle? I've been following this thread and being new, would've thought to just squirt it in with the syringe. AARGH! I think I woul've thrown up and cried too.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

You have to get it in a muscle. If I had been *shown* where a good spot is, that would have been easier. And, the banamine is a breeze to give IM. The Pen is not b/c I have to give so much of it, it is a painful medicine, and it's thick. Still, had I not seen so much blood come out afterward, I'd probably still be okay. I'm just not sure if the amount of blood I'm seeing is okay or not. And really, where I'm sticking the needle, is it a muscle? Or is there a possibility I'm hitting intestines or something? And then there's the fact that my buck isn't one of those easy going types when he's home and feeling good, which he is now, thanks to the banamine.

DH came home from work early to help me and we have a vet appointment in a couple hours, so hopefully I get over this soon!

I really appreciate everyone's help and advise. I wish I weren't so squeamish and probably overly emotional right now. Didn't sleep too well last night and threw up again... 

**edit--Necie, I re-read your post and finally get the question you were asking. If the cavity were still open, no I wouldn't have had to get the needle in it. But I couldn't get the puss off the top, so was going to try to inject the pen thru it. Would've tried the peroxide but my mom just took all mine for a chemistry experiment @ school...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You need to get him to the vet and let her deal with cleaning this out and debreeding the rotting flesh and start over. Keep him there if you can't control him. You can up his banamine about 20 minutes before you start to put him in lala land then work on his head while he has diminished capacity. A big buck, don't put him up on the milkstand, once he is 'sedated' put him on the ground by standing at his side, reach under him and grab his front and rear leg, the ones on the opposite side you are standing on, pull his legs together and towards you in a swooping motion and he will lay down on his side. Have your husband sit on his shoulder. Bending over and holding his head still.

You really have to tell yourself this is for his own good, and stop with the dramatics, it's not doing him any good at all. Get the needle off the syringe and powerwash that cavity, peroxide will foam out most of the gunk with some force, then hurry and once again with the needle off forcefully syringe it full of the penn. Move to large syringes if you have to, but get it cleaned out. Vicki


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2009)

stoneyheightsfarm said:


> And really, where I'm sticking the needle, is it a muscle? *Or is there a possibility I'm hitting intestines or something?*


Oh my! Where exactly are you giviing this IM injection??

Sara


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

We had a young cows horns removed the year before, and I do have to say that was the grossest thing I've ever seen. I will not do that again! however, she too got an infection. We took her to another vet who locked her head and scrubbed all the grossness out of the cavities :ick ,then sprayed it with that Alushield and gave her a heavy duty antibiotic injection. Now I realize this was a cow and not a goat, but what I was getting at was the scrubbing of the wound.. It really needs to be cleaned _well_. I know, that's gross. :sigh


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Yea, what Vicki said!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If the infection reaches his brain he has to be put down. He will not be able to walk or breed even if the brain infection is 'cured'.

From now on when you have scurs or horns removed, ask your vet to call Texs A&M. They not only do this surgery but take a flap of skin and suture it over the opening, so this whole sinus cavity opening thing is moot...and is stupid anyway! Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:really Sara, I was asking myself the same question! It's a looonnnggg way from the back leg to the intestines. ?
Kaye


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Kaye White said:


> :really Sara, I was asking myself the same question! It's a looonnnggg way from the back leg to the intestines. ?
> Kaye


'Specially with a 1" needle! :O


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2009)

hsmomof4 said:


> 'Specially with a 1" needle! :O


I routinely use 1" needles. You don't have to insert them all the way in.

My concern is the location in which she is giving the IM injection. You will not hit, or need to be worried about hitting the intestines when you correctly give an IM injection in the back leg.

Sara


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Okay, I got him to the vet. They sedated him and cleaned out the wound. She said it didn't look that bad once they cleaned it--seems the infection is at the surface. She put Pen in the wound and could only get 1cc in before it started coming out, so she thinks it is already closing up nicely. They're keeping him overnight and giving a different (stronger) antibiotic. I will go pick him up tomorrow. At that point, she'll give me a lesson on IM shots, but said that with the antibiotics they'll give, that I shouldn't need to give more unless something starts up again, but she doesn't anticipate that happening.

Had I known how, and had the meds to, I would have sedated to flush it out and no, wouldn't have had him on the milkstand for that. But, I'm nowhere near there yet. Thankful to have a vet! 

I really don't know goat anatomy all that well, so I could very well be putting it in the right spot (and she did say that even the amount of blood I described was normal) but I get a little panicky...I was very high on the leg and just don't know... That and the loose stools caused by the antibiotic (which I should have remembered is normal in humans and not been surprised to see it in my buck, but when you're scared and wondering if what you're doing is right to begin with...) I got to wondering. After my "shot lesson" tomorrow, I can tell you if I was doing it right or screwing up horribly! I'm thinking that this would be a good reason to see a necropsy or a goat being processed... At least I'll have a better clue as to the location of things in there in 3 dimensions.

So anyway, I'm feeling relieved to have him in their care, a bit like a shmuck for not being able to do it myself, and just trying to process all that has gone on. Thank you all so much for all your help. I will mention the Texas A&M skin flap procedure to the vet when I go get him. Hopefully, we won't have any more disbudding issues like this and won't have to deal with it again, but just in case, that's definitely something to look into. 

Also, Vicki, my vet said she'd be willing to do the "cut an x, pop out the hornbud" procedure on any expendable buck kids I have, but would like some info on it, as she's never seen it done before. I know Storey's Guide to Dairy Goats has a really short section on it. Is there anything else that I can get for her to look at, or can I have her call you, since you've done it before? I bought the Rhinehardt x50, but might like to give this a try... by watching my vet try first!

...and yeah, I'm kicking myself for the dramatics. Normally that's not me. Thinking pregnancy and lack of sleep, maybe. Ugh.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Sara,
I meant that it's a lot further than 1" from the intended injection site to where the intestines would be.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Back from the vet. His head looked nice and clean when I got there, as I think they flushed it again just before I came (I had called to let them know I was on my way per their request). It's draining nicely now, good color. When I got home, I put him in the milkstand and squirted another 2 ccs of pen at/in the hole. It was at least more open and I figured it couldn't hurt even if I got very little in. Vet said I shouldn't have to do anything else and that he should be past the roughest part. When trying to figure out what went wrong, only thing we could think of was that perhaps the vet wrap for the day wasn't good... not enough air flow and maybe trapped in bacteria present during the procedure?? I told her about the superglue/gauze suggestion and the TX A&M skin flap idea. She said she's heard of that skin flap thing on cows, but would really need to see a video or something of it, since she's uncertain as to where exactly you'd find that extra skin to pull over it. Anybody got a video or a link to one?

Anyhow, my shot location. According to the vet, I wasn't giving the shot in the thigh, really, but more the rump. So, now I know where she says to give it and she also showed me a spot in front of the shoulder where I can give small doses of IM shots (like banamine) but that for something like this (8 ccs of Pen) that I need to give it in the thigh.

In this post http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,7525.msg79468.html#msg79468 it describes where I was giving the shot, so I was probably just fine there as well, but when you're not sure about what you're doing, it's really easy to second guess yourself.

So now, both my boys are happy campers. Jarlath is glad to be home and Tripoli is glad to have him home. (He had gone hoarse yelling for his buddy!) Hope all continues to go well from here on out... Thanks to y'all who sent me well wishes, encouragement, advise, and for your prayers!


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Billie, glad things seem to be headed in the right direction 

I felt great empathy for you reading your posts about your nervousness in treating this buck. It reminded me of nursing school. You mentioned you felt like throwing up. The best advice I received from an instructor was "fake it til you make it". Just dive in and do what you know to do. If you don't know what to do, then just do your best.

With an animal, keep that in perspective, it is an animal and not a human. Of course you will do everything imaginalble; to give the shot, for example, correctly, but if you don't, then you did your best at the time.

Nerves is what stands in the way. Losing one's head. Just say, "This medicine needs to be IN this animal...now WHAT route?" And do it confidently. Don't put it off, just go do it. 

Also, think of it as a science project rather than something you are afraid you might kill or injure. Think of how it is actually kind of fun and that all this keeps your life from being boring. Think of how kinda cool looking all that pus and blood is. Change the way you look at things. It helps to be odd in the first place


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Glad he's home and doing better and that you're feeling more confident!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Diane, funny you should mention that... I found myself thinking, "Good thing I didn't go into medicine!"  Thank you for your kind, empathetic words and advise!  Normally I'm not such a girl about things, and this really took me by surprise. 

Thanks, Stacey.


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