# creamier chevre or chevre type cheese



## Anita Martin

I've always used the recipe in "Goats Produce Too" to make my chevre. I don't really like the recipe because I don't understand it...the part where you can use either buttermilk or equal parts culture gets me every time. My cultures are in packets or a large pack...can't figure out how buttermilk and cultures compare on a volume basis. Plus I use 3 gallons of milk...and the recipe calls for 5 quarts which should be simple but my brain is already messed up with converting the buttermilk to culture...anyway, what I want to make is a very creamy chevre type cheese. 

What I make is not creamy enough for what I want. I want it to be spreadable. Maybe it has nothing to do with my recipe...which is never consistant since I don't understand it, but maybe I let set or drained incorrectly? I use fresh from the goat milk, set out overnight, approx. 12 hours and then drain for about 8 hours. I also use rennet. Recently i found a recipe that does not call for rennet, I think it was on this forum in the recipe section. Will leaving the rennet out make a creamier cheese? All other recipes seem to call for rennet. Just wondering what will happen to my cheese if I leave the rennet out, and if that is the best way to create a spreadable cheese? 

Also, I really don't like the blandness of the culture. I prefer buttermilk, but my buttermilk always goes bad before I get it all used up. Can I freeze the buttermilk in correct portions to use as my culture?

Thanks a heap.


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## Sondra

Probably you are draining too long


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## MiaBella Farm

I use these packets:
http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/140-Chevre-DS-5pack.html

For 1-2 gallons of Goat Milk (use milk that is a day old):
Warm the milk to 86 degrees, sprinkle in culture, gently mix, cover and let sit for 12 hours undisturbed.

**If I am using 3-4 gallons of milk I use 2 cultures.**

After 12 hours I put the curds in a cheese cloth and hang for 8 - 12 hours. If you put too little of the curd in one cheese cloth it will be dry. If you put too much curd in the cheese cloth it will have more whey left in it and maybe too moist. You just have to see how much is the right amount for each cheese cloth (trial and error). 

After removing the cheese from the cloth, immediately add about a tablespoon of cheese salt, mix well...then season or eat plain. I have also found that if I refrigerate the cheese for a day or more, it is more crumbly when first taken out of the frige. If I want it to be a bit creamier, then I take it out 5 minutes before I plan to eat it. :yes


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## buckrun

Michelle you can save a lot since you are doing it commercially by getting the larger packs from dairyconnection.
We make ours with flora danica granules - it takes a tiny amt per gallon and 2 drops chymostar rennet and nothing else.
It is creamy - flavorful and cheap with bulk buying. The packages cost more than the contents!
You must handle the milk gently thru the whole process. This is key-and will affect results- we use it right from the barn and do not reheat and have had a noticeably better product than using previously chilled. The culture is what is imparting the flavor so maybe some cheeseheads will help with suggestions about that. We love what happens with the Flora Danica. I also put the drained curd in the food processor before chilling to cream it or to add seasonings and it makes it stay more spreadable. 
Hope Pav and Jennifer chime in. 
Lee


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## Anita Martin

It does seem like I drain it too long, but when I put the cheese out, I always have whey draining off of it still. And yet it seems dry and crumbly. I'd love to be able to make cheesecake out of the chevre, but I'm not anywhere near cream cheese consistancy for that. The culture I use is called choozit cheese culture. I think it's from dairy one. It's in a large pack. the number on it is MM1 LYO 250 DCU if that means anything. I think I'll try the Flora Danica. It'll probably take me 100 years to use up this pack..


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## MiaBella Farm

Lee, after I use up the culture I am currently using, hubby has ordered MA4001 from Danisco. We started out with the stuff I mentioned above just to "get a feel" for making Chevre...it is definitely for the home cheese maker. Very easy to use.

Right now we are just making chevre for ourselves. I freeze it plain, then defrost and spice when we want some. Once the pasteurizer arrives I'll be making 22 gallon batches, then will be able to sell some :biggrin


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## linuxboy

Anita, the crumbly and dry chalkiness of the chevre is because of the culture selection, and to a lesser degree, the temp at which you ripen it, and also temp at drain and time of drain. The problem is that the curd is not retaining water well enough, and is not strong enough to form a stable mass after it drains. As a result you get continued whey seepage, too much whey expulsion during drainage, etc. 

This phenomenon is because your curd is too acidic, because your culture produces too much acid too fast. You need a mild and slower acidifier like flora danica, or even ma4001 (I prefer FD or other multi-strain mix for slight buttery notes). MM100 series is really for cheddar, feta, blue, and the like, where you need fast acid production. What you need with a chevre is a blend of bacteria that will slowly produce acid, be more likely to form long strands joined to each other (helps with water retention), and that produce aroma and secondary fermentation products like diacetyl that give you buttery notes.

The temp you ripen at influences rate of acid production. You want nice and slow acid, yet for the bacteria to multiply as quickly as possible. This is best to my taste at 78-82 degrees. I prefer a lower ripening temp. 

The temp of room at drain and also time of drain influence texture as well. Too high of a room temp (70+) and bacteria are too active. Too long draining and you lose too much water. Also, the point at which you drain matters. You should drain as soon as the curd is solid. Also the size of the curd ball. Too big of a bag and the outside will be ready, while the inside will be very wet and more acidic. To fix this either use smaller sizes or every 3-4 hours mix up the curd so that the outside has a chance to drain.

And at the end, you should mix everything in a mixer to incorporate it all. This should give you a better product.


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## hsmomof4

I use Lee's (buckrun) recipe and it is AWESOME. Since I sell this cheese, I pasteurize the milk and then cool it back down (because it is a fresh cheese and not aged 60 days, it's a violation of federal law to sell it if it's made from raw milk...obviously there are people not concerned with that, but that's part of why I pasteurize the milk). It is so easy, too. Flora danica is the culture that I use...I do 2 gallons of milk and I think it's 1/2 t. of FD. Here's a link to the thread with her recipe. It is YUMMY and I get lots of compliments on it: 
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,10407.0.html


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## Anita Martin

Thanks everyone. Pav you rock. Makes total sense. I had never thought of mixing my draining bag. Not even once. Also, I'll definately order the Flora Danica. Don't have a clue why I started using the other culture. I'm glad I can use it for aged cheeses. 

I'm using cheese draining bags, and I like the fabric they are made of, they clean up very easily, however, they are hard to ladle my cheese into as they won't lay out in my colander. Someone mentioned butter muslin. I did order muslin but lost it in the move and would like to also order more of that. I don't have any old sheets lying around to rip up. Is one type of cloth better than another? Also, what works best for tying and hanging the draining bags from? I've used lots of different things including tying the bag and putting a stick through it. I'd like something that is easily rendered bacteria-free. 

Thanks so much.


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## buckrun

> Pav you rock.


I second that!

I use butter muslin but doubled. I have a very groooooooovy extended hook above my kitchen sink -I think it is from the garden section at Lowes to hang potted plants from. I line my colander with the butter muslin putting a drip pan under it for the whey- then pour in my cheese ball slowly- I don't break it up or ladle it -just pour and then knot the corners of the muslin and hang over the hook till no drips! If you have a nicely formed curd ball and don't break it then the whey comes out clean and there is really little to drain from inside the ball. I always thought you had to break it up but actually I like the product better if I don't. I never found a written statement that you needed to break the curd for soft cheese. But keep in mind this is...

Just me messin about. 
Lee


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## Anita Martin

Well, I'm all excited because this morning I was cleaning out a drawer to organize bills into, and found my muslin! Lee, I also thought I needed to break up my curd ball, but I'll try it without breaking it next time and see how it works. I probably need to get a new colander as it's too small. I think I'll go back to making batches with just 2 gallons of milk and see if that is easier for me to handle. I love the idea of a hook above the kitchen sink....and here I was bugging my guy to help me figure out how to build a draining rack I could put on the kitchen counter...We just about live at lowes with this "home improvement special" farm house we bought. I'll check out those big hooks.


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## Sondra

and I just tie mine to the door handle above the sink  I use rennet and FD as love the flavor.


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## 2goatsVA

Anita - I'm using FD as my culture and like it much better than the cheesemaking.com chevre packs. For 3-3.5 gallons, I use 3/4 tsp. FD culture and 6-7 drops of double strength animal rennet (diluted in 1/2 cup of filtered water).

I pasteurize the milk at 145 degrees for 30 minutes. Then cool the pot of milk in a sink full of cold water (switching water twice to cool more quickly). When the milk has cooled to 86-90 degrees I inoculate with the FD culture. I sprinkle the culture granules on top of the milk and let it set for 5 minutes. The 5 minutes allows the culture to rehydrate. Then I stir the culture into the milk with a gentle up and down motion for a minute or two. Then I add my diluted rennet. I used to allow the milk to ripen for 30 minutes, but have found during multiple trials that this 30 minute ripening step does not seem to make any difference. Does anyone else agree/disagree?

After adding the rennet, I gently stir again for about a minute. Then I cover the pot and wrap a bath towel around the pot to help insulate it. I leave it on the kitchen counter for 20 hours. I used to leave it for approximately 12 hours, but more recently have been leaving it for 20 hours and find the resulting chevre to be creamier. 

Around 20 hours, I cut the curd into approximately 2 inch blocks. I use a large slotted stainless steel spoon to spoon the curd into my makeshift cheese cloth hanging bags. I was using butter muslin cut into 30 inch squares, but that got expensive even re-using them. So I went to the Goodwill Store and purchased some pretty clean looking white bed sheets and cut them into 31 inch squares. Danielle hemmed them for me and now we have some nice hanging bags. I sanitize them before each use. I line a colander with the square and fill with curd. Then pull the corners together and tie them. I tie a carabiner into the knot and hang it on a shower rod over the middle of the shower to drain. 

Like Michelle mentions above, if the bag is pretty large, the whey will not full drain out in one draining session. So, I let it drain for 12 hours, take the bag down, empty the chevre into a clean mixing bowl, add the salt, mix well, and then put it back into the muslin/bed sheet bag and tie it up again. I let it hang for another 12 hours. 

It has been coming out great lately with very consistent results. The double hanging also allows you to mix in any herbs at the mixing between hangings if you wish. This gives the herbs a little time to "marinate" in the cheese. 

If you want to try some with the FD, let me know and we can drop you some off. I really like the FD as a culture. Thats my 2 cents worth.

HB


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## Anita Martin

Wow HB, sounds like you are really getting it down! I'm impressed. I had some packets of chevre culture that Danielle gave me and I tried one last night. I also did as suggested and broke the ball apart this morning after hanging all night and let it drain some more. I made my best Chevre ever! 

I will try the 20 hours and wrapping it...maybe. We do not have air conditioning in the kitchen and so the air temp. in there does fluctuate. It's not blistering hot as there are trees shading that side of the house. Would I still insulate the pot or would that be to much heat do you think?

I do plan to order some FD. It sounds as if it's everyone's favorite...but I'm so impressed with the culture packs, I can't imagine it being much better, it is so creamy and is holding moisture. Kind of fluffy if you will. I got out the cheese I made the other day with the other culture and it is rubbery, no taste at all, etc. A definite improvement!


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## buckrun

The size of the weave of your draining cloth is inhibiting draining in one hanging. A more open weave suits the drain process better than tightly woven sheets. Using something made for the purpose such as butter muslin is going to yield the proper consistency more quickly. I am using butter muslin several years old after repeated bleaching and so don't quite follow the expense? Unless you are hanging up dozens of bags? Perhaps you used very strong bleach and it ate the fibers? 24 hours is to me an extreme amount of time to drain-Temp influences this process too and your cheese will be souring and getting really strong flavors with extended hanging like that. The inside will be wet and outside dry. A simpler process and a nicer product ensues with even drain for the entire mass. And Yes a 2 gallon batch will give you more control with no need to mess with it till it is ready to refrigerate. 
Anita it would be very helpful to have a cheese thermometer to monitor your temps. 
Lee


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## mulish

using FD and other cultures from dairy connection, I'm using plastic basket molds to drain all of my chevre. I find it _much_ easier than dealing with cloth and can vary drain time to make softer or firmer end product. I like being able to slice firm to age in oil with various yums, crumble for salads, etc. or blend soft for herbed or honeyed spreads. My drain times vary from 12 - 24 hours with one flip in the middle of time. I've recently started salting at the flip point and that seems to be working well.


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## auntdinana

A quick question on the "Goats produce, too" recipe. Does your chevre end up sour tasting? I wondered if my homemade buttermilk was too strong...


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## Bernice

I too use the Goats Produce Too soft chevere recipe and have always had good luck, never sour tasting. I also use liquid rennet and buttermilk. 

Anita, have you tried the new culture suggestions yet?


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## feistymomma

MiaBella Farm said:


> I use these packets:
> http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/140-Chevre-DS-5pack.html
> 
> For 1-2 gallons of Goat Milk (use milk that is a day old):
> Warm the milk to 86 degrees, sprinkle in culture, gently mix, cover and let sit for 12 hours undisturbed.


This is what always use too and its been a never fail for me.


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## Anita Martin

Bernice,
No I have not tried the new culture yet, but my recent experiments with a regular chevre culture were both consistant and very good. I plan to make another batch soon and make a cheesecake or another dessert with it. I am also using plain muslin, instead of the draining bags I had been using. I think that made a difference. I do want to try the butter muslin too.


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## Holly Govero

Where can I buy FD??


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## linuxboy

How much do you need, Holly?

Here are a few good sources (in order of my preference)

http://www.kelleysupply.com/default.aspx?page=item detail&itemcode=M391181
http://www.danlac.com/ingredient/probat-222-lyo-50-dcu (this is the same thing, but not called flora danica)
http://www.dairyconnection.com/commerce/catalog.jsp?catId=10
http://glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/starterscultures.htm (Margaret sells the Meso B, which is very close)
http://www.leeners.com/cheese-ingredients-cultures.html
http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/136-Flora-Danica-DS-1pack.html (overpriced)


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## Holly Govero

I dont need that much. I wanted to try one and see if they are better than that I use is buttermilk just like others used the book from Goat Produce too. I am trying so hard to find a good cheese that it is almost same as cream cheese. Just almost. Like spreadable and etc. I dont like tangy taste. I am looking for more cheese so I can make more as long they are not like tangy or too strong for my taste. My taste is very strong. U know.. It is hard to find a good cheese that suits me. I am always looking for some kind of cheese that it is almost like cream cheese but more like a lot softer and it is soo good. MY friend wont tell me what it is. Makes me mad. LOL. I think it was framage. I dont know..


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## Holly Govero

But Pav Thanks!!


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## linuxboy

The FD is a good choice for that if you want buttery. It has bacteria that makes the cheese taste buttery. Buttermilk alone can give you OK texture, but will usually be too tart to the taste. This is because there are two isomers (mirror images) of the lactic acid. They taste slightly different to me. The FD produces mostly the + isomer. Also, the FD bacteria will form these long strands connected to each other and it tastes creamier.


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## hsmomof4

Maybe the cheese your friend won't tell you about is Fromage Blanc (which just means white cheese, in French). You can get Fromage Blanc packets to just add to milk to make the cheese from New England Cheese Company, and Caprine Supply I think carries them, too.


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## Holly Govero

Stacey, I thought that was it. But it looks like yogurt but it is not at all. It is soo good. You can dip your preztels and eat it. It is soo good. I wish she would tell me. LOL.. Thanks Pav. I will try that FD and see if I will like it. I think I will because you said it is like buttery. I think I will like that. Thank u so much..


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## linuxboy

What Ricky calls "Fromage blanc" is really MM100 by Danisco (or MM101/102, they are the same culture but different variants used for phage rotation), likely one she repackages and sells at a markup in smaller volumes. This is similar to FD, but it does not have the Leuconostoc bacteria. It's personal preference. Leuconostoc adds what some call too much butter flavor, making it too rich and too fake. The MM100 does give chevre and fromage blanc/fromage frais a much cleaner flavor

From what you described, it is definitely either MM100 or FD culture that your friend uses. Can't be anything else.

MM100 chevre or fromage blanc should be lightly tangy, but creamy, spreadable like a thick greek yogurt, with almost this tang of sweetness and a light goaty flintness, right? Is that what you taste? That's MM100

FD chevre or fromage blanc should have a more buttery nose (what I call "less clean"), especially at room temp, and this more sweet, more up front buttery flavor, with less flinty, less goaty paste when you eat it. It is also physically thicker because of the Leuconostoc.

So it's up to you. If you want thinner paste, more fresh goat milk taste, go for the MM100. If you want a thicker paste, and more buttery nose, go for the FD. Or get both and try them and see which you like better


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## hsmomof4

Personally, I like the supposedly "fake" flavor of the FD. Yummo. Would it make a thicker cheese with the MM100 if you drained it longer?


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## linuxboy

Do you mean would the cheese be more firm using only MM100 and letting it drain longer? Yes, but it would be drier. If you're talking about the sort of thickness you get with a greek yogurt, the type where you can stick a spoon in it and it will stand up, then the Leuconostoc that's in FD really helps with adding that thickness.


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## buckrun

Yes I was thinking the same Stacey- my palette is not sophisticated enough to call it fake- just rich!
And I like that it stands up to baking. I make a killer cheesecake with it and actually tried a squash cheesecake using a pumpkin recipe since we had stacks of the stuff around and it was scrump!
Lee


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## hsmomof4

Ooh, I bet that was delicious. I loves me some cheesecake!


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## Shereen

For our Chev we use MA4001 or MA4002. Rennet 1cc/40# (animal and double strength). 18 hour set @72*. Try not hanging it. We ladle it into moulds, perforated & bottomless lined with cheesecloth. Drains for 12-18 hours at 60-70*. Salted at 1% and mixed by hand and then with a mixer. Turns out like whipped cream cheese.


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