# Possible Founder Help Please



## Ping (Jan 21, 2010)

Okay, please be gentle everyone. I am thoroughly confused and sad :down. From searching the forum I think I may have foundered my doeling. I’m confused because I’ve been following the same feed regimen since she was born (the one posted here for raising kids) and have used the same method on other does and not had a problem before. 
The particulars:
Breed: Nubian
Age: yearling, 100 days bred.
Diet: Really good alfalfa, one pound of a whole barley and whole oat mix per day with a sprinkling of BOSS (this mix is split between two feedings), and Manna Pro Goat Mineral sprinkled on top of grain ration twice daily.
Hooves have been maintained since birth.
She went to the breeder for six weeks and came back with severely overgrown hooves which once trimmed revealed some pitting and black gunk. There was also some rawness and splitting between the toes. I cleaned all that up, treated with coppertox and vet-wrapped her feet to keep them clean. They didn’t feel warm. They seemed to clear up except the front left. She kept favoring it. I figured at first it was because I had to trim so much off her heel to get the pitting and gunk off that I got too short and it was irritated. Well, it seemed to improve, but this last week she started favoring both front feet again—walking on eggshells NOT knees. Now, she appears to have some puffiness at the hairline above both front heels. The hooves have become slightly thickened and harder as well. The hoof looks a little funny too and seems to fit the description of the grooved appearance of a foundered hoof. So, it seems pretty classic founder to me, but I have no experience with this. 
So what’s the problem?
Alfalfa too rich? It is really green with hardly any stem.
Too much grain? The info on here for raising kids is to wean them once they are eating one pound of grain per day, which is what I did. She has been on that same grain since she was weaned from the lambar.
Should she be receiving orchard or timothy hay along with her alfalfa? The goats have refused to eat anything but alfalfa and everyone said to give free choice alfalfa so I stopped the orchard hay over a year ago because they wouldn’t eat it anyway. Up until it got too wet and muddy they were out on browse but haven’t been for several months.
What to do now?
Take her off grain? Can I do this since she is 100 days bred?
Soak hooves in ice water?
Banamine?


How do I prevent this in my other two does?
They also have the rawness between the toes, but no other issues. Yet.

Thanks everyone.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Sometimes hooved animals can founder if they eat too much grain. I don't give that much grain to dry yearlings. At this point I would be giving them mostly alfalfa and maybe a half cup of grain and a sprinkle of BOSS. I'm not sure that is the cause. It would help if you could show a picture. You do keep her feet trimmed up right? Sometimes they can get an infection in a hoof. There are topical treatments for hoof infections. Are her toes long? Is the "gunk" cleaned out from inside the bottoms of her hooves? It might help to trim her feet and flatten them until you see healthy pink material on the bottom. Not until she bleeds, just until you see pink. Clean the mud, or whatever out of them too and use a hof rot treatment on them. She may need other meds but I am not experienced enough to advise on that. Some goats do retain water during pregnancy and need extra care. Vicki could best advise on this.

Has she been vacinated for blackleg? I don't know if this affects goats, but we use a vacine that is used on our cattle too, and it has blackleg vaccine in it. 


Also, has she been walking around in mud a lot?

This really sounds like laminitis.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's very unlikely that amount of grain foundered her, but I would be concerned if a doe of mine didn't get her feet trimmed for 6 weeks and her feet were that bad that fast....I would bet she foundered at the farm she went and visited and now you are seeing another acute attack from likely free access to hay she wasn't used to for 6 weeks she was gone. Being a yearling and being bred, she is on the exact same diet my does are on here who are yearlings and bred and due next month...except I feed grass hay and 17% alfalfa pellets, so although that is just the minimum protein that they can be I am fairly certain it isn't going to max at some of the proteins that alfalfa hay can be, and there is no such thing as too much leaf on alfalfa hay down here 

There is very little to nothing you can do, test you hay if this is the hay you are going to be using, but the damage is done...frequent hoof trimmings, maybe move to a mineral or add biotin, found in the horse section of jeffersquine.com it's excellent on feet. Several of my friends have had super good luck by using caprinesupply.com their mineral called buck power, in using it on buck who got really down during a case of founder, they put him on this so he still could get collected and since all the bucks live together they were all on it, and thrived....so much so that with just having two bucks now, I am giving it to mine, (I got a bag in a sellout) but I don't buy fluff and I love this mineral. I have a buck here that I just got back this last fall, whose feet were just horrible, they are getting better but even after nearing 5 months of him being here and getting his feet trimmed every 4 weeks, we are not anywhere near 100% yet, so I am hoping the buck power will help him.

Trim her feet back every few weeks, keep the length of the hoof down even though she will limp, use banamine for 2 or 3 days, 1cc per 100 pounds after trimming. I don't think you did anything to this doe. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

If all your does have 'rawness' between the toes and you are wet and muddy it might be advisable to dose feet with antifungal once a week. If they are spending no time with dry feet you will have to clean and dry them before treating- dip or spray the affected area and then let it dry before returning them to a wet area. 
Are the UTD on copper bolus?
Lee


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Vicki I cannot find the content list for the Buck Power. I would be very interested to see it. What about it do you think is making feet healthier? 

Lee


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Buck Power Minerals

Calcium, min 18.0%
Calcium, max 19.0%
Phosphorus, min 9.0%
Salt, min 11.0%
Salt, max 20.0%
Iodine 0.02%
Sulphur 0.002%
Iron 0.04%
Copper 0.001%
Cobalt 0.01%
Manganese 0.04%
Magnesium 0.20%
Zinc 0.08%
Potassium 0.08%
Selenium 0.002%
Vit. A min. 1000,000 USP units
Vit. D min. 1,000 USP units
Vit. E min. 100 IU


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I agree that six weeks is way too short of a time to see wild and unusual hoof growth unless the diet was radically changed during that time. With all the rawness you are seeing, I'd suspect your doe was kept in a really wet and muddy pen that was infected with some sort of fungus/bacterial spores. My goats are in mud right now...I'm working on it but we do not have the red and raw issues. Did you notice what the goats at the breeding farms feet looked like? 

There are a lot of anti-fungal treatments out there. I personally do not like coppertox, bleach, formaldyhyde, etc. because they are reported to kill both bad and GOOD bacteria, which in horses anyway, the dead good bacteria provide fodder for fungus, which can become a vicious cycle. 

I've had good results with the spray on purple stuff (containing gentian violet) on mild thrush and a couple cases of fungusy feet on the goats. Another good product if you want to soak her feet is White Lightening. It can be bought in a small or large amount and you mix it with white vinegar and put her foot into a soaking boot or bag ( I use a regular freezer ziplock back placed inside a soaking boot for the horses) with the top taped up to prevent gasses from escaping. The soak should be done for a min. of 30 minutes and can be left on up to an hour after which it becomes inert. This product is used for human foods such as orange juice so is generally reguarded as safe and is not supposed to kill good bacteria. It's a chlorine product, but is not the same thing as clorox. 

It kills fungus and fungal spores, gets rid of scratches, thrush, white line disease, etc. You can also dump it on the barn floor when you are done using it as a soak to help kill anything there. 

Good luck with your doe! Do you have any pictures?

Just for the record, my dry does get at least one pound of grain per day, plus alfalfa pellets and a candy-like pearl millet hay and none have ever foundered. We do not have your good alfalfa however, but I suspect she foundered at the breeders farm, not yours since her diet had been the same over her lifetime.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Lee I don't know, but in trying to help Pi, Kenny noted the last time she trimmed even Hendrix feet that they were harder...the bucks pen is in the woods, the lowest part of the property and accesses 10 acres of completely wooded underbrush so their feet are always soft and overgrow quickly, we simply have to trim buck feet every 5 or 6 weeks.....when we open their other gate to live in our timbered woods pen, their feet could go months without getting done. Vicki


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## Ping (Jan 21, 2010)

Thanks all for your help. 

The place she went to be bred supposedly uses the same grain and alfalfa that I do. However, they do have pasture, which I don't. I only have forest browse. Their pasture had just had a flush of new growth and I mentioned that my girls weren't used to that when I dropped them off there. They said they'd watch them carefully (stupid me). They also use a grass hay with their alfalfa that I don't use. (In all fairness her hooves were probably due for a quick trim before she left but I do usually trim them every four to six weeks, more often in the winter.) Their pastures are very muddy. Their goats often have something they refer to as "hoof scald" that they say is not contagious or rot of any kind. I believe it is the rawness between the toes they are referring to. 

The rawness I have combatted before because we are always wet and muddy here in the Willamette Valley. The girls have walkways everywhere in their pen so they don't have to get their feet wet and their sheds are totally dry, but they still manage to get muddy. I have been treating my other two does with the rawness with a spray called Blue Kote that is supposed to be an antifungal. Would Coppertox be a better choice? 

I was using the Coppertox on the doe who foundered because her feet also had the black gunk and pitting going on which seemed like rot to me. I am a little confused on the difference between all the different hoof issues and whether it's just different titles for the same thing or if they are different conditions. Can anyone clarify rot vs scald vs just dirty feet?

I will add some grass hay to their alfalfa, but I know they won't eat it and at this point in gestation I worry about rationing their alfalfa and forcing them to eat the grass hay--any suggestions regarding this?

I will bolus them. None of these three have been bolused yet. I've bolused my adults in the past but wasn't sure on what age was appropriate for younger does so these girls haven't been done yet. I'll also pick up some biotin.

Should I vet wrap her front feet to help with support and the puffiness above her heels? Or just let her be?

I'll try to post pics this weekend.

Thanks again for the help.


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## NorthOf49 (Feb 8, 2011)

Hmm. I was under the impression that foot scald was related to foot rot; caused by similar organisms and that hoof scald can progress into foot rot if not treated. I also thought it was contagious. We got bought a herd of Boers in the fall that came with it so we kept them seperated, trimmed their feet heavily (they needed it) and treated them with Koppertox twice in total as well as did copper bolusing on them. Of course with that they came from muddy conditions to dry conditions so I don't know what worked but they're cleared up now. For founder I thought management consisted of as little grains as possible and lots (and lots) of trimming. I had one doe with that and she would go down on her front knees all the time until I realized that where with normal goats I'd trim 1/4", with her it was 1" on that one side. Good luck.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

The pitting described really makes me think fungal on this.

Just for the record...I give the 1/2 lb of grain mixture twice a day to my dry does. About a month before kidding I incrementally increase it.


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Am I reading right? That mineral has more Selenium than Copper in it?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Janie thanks!
Hate when it is written in percentages....arrrgghhhh 
Where is Stacey ! 

I was expecting more micro nutrients. And odd that the salt can vary by 10 percent !!!!!!!!!!!
What a rip off that would be...some people get 90% mins and some get 80%?????
hummmm

I am going to try some biotin on Pinaria and see if I can fix her feet too. 
Anita any other nutritional suggestions on foundered feet?
Did you do before and after pics of Pi ?????
Lee


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

I am having the same problem that Vicki mentioned. Our herd spends nearly all their time in wooded lots where the ground is soft and damp. We have fast growth and need to trim VERY frequently. Particularly with my bucks their feet tend to be soft. We've been lucky not to have fungal/rot issues. If I didn't tend feet as often as I do and stay on top of Cu bolusing I believe we most likely would. I'd love to find a mineral that would help with this!


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I'm currently enrolled in a nutrition class aimed specifically at insulin resistant and cushings affected horses, and keeping them founder-free. Dr. Ellenor Kellon is the instructor. One of the nutrients always recommended is magnesium, which is believed to help with regulating insulin, and helps in preventing founder. Two others that are recommended are two that we in the goat world also consider important, they are copper and zinc in higher dosages than normal. Also, iodine, usually via iodized salt, but it's also available in kelp. 

From what I've seen, our dairy goats are not so often troubled with insulin issues, but seem to founder more often from a flush of unaccustomed rich feedstuffs. On the road to recovery, I can see the benefit of the nutrients copper and zinc and possibly even magnesium, although I'm sure the exact role this plays. The copper and zinc contribute, among other things, to healthy hoof growth and are especially helpful with getting more sole depth in a thin-soled horse. High iron of course, tends to bind with these nutrients or somehow prevent their assimilation.

As for the red and raw areas on soft tissue, yes, I do believe fully that this is contagious and would use something like the purple stuff on it that will form a barrier...nothing caustic, it is most likely fungal in nature. I would not use coppertox on it, it is likely to burn raw skin. 

Another treatment for the red and raw areas I've had really good success with in horses with scratches on their pasterns, which is also fungal in nature is desitin. (for diaper rash: the white stuff that smells like fish.) And for deep thrush issues, and also fungal-type areas is a mix called "Pete's Goo". It is made with equal parts desitin, neosporin and either a yeast infection cream or athletes foot cream. All can be generics of course. I've never tried this on goats but can attest that it works very well in horses. The desitin creates a barrier to wetness, the neosporin is antibacterial and the monistat is anti-fungal. None are harmful to healthy tissues.


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## LSP Farm (Dec 4, 2011)

"Scald" is VERY contagious, and the muddier the ground the more it thrives. We treated it with la200 tropically and gave injections. But before doing anything we cleaned the hooves with a bleach solution. It's pretty much a nasty sore between the toes. This worked for us. Also don't forget to disinfect trimmers in between each foot.



Ping said:


> Thanks all for your help. F
> 
> The place she went to be bred supposedly uses the same grain and alfalfa that I do. However, they do have pasture, which I don't. I only have forest browse. Their pasture had just had a flush of new growth and I mentioned that my girls weren't used to that when I dropped them off there. They said they'd watch them carefully (stupid me). They also use a grass hay with their alfalfa that I don't use. (In all fairness her hooves were probably due for a quick trim before she left but I do usually trim them every four to six weeks, more often in the winter.) Their pastures are very muddy. Their goats often have something they refer to as "hoof scald" that they say is not contagious or rot of any kind. I believe it is the rawness between the toes they are referring to.
> 
> ...


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## LSP Farm (Dec 4, 2011)

http://www.motesclearcreekfarms.com/asp/articles/FootProblems.asp


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## NorthOf49 (Feb 8, 2011)

Just another comment: I happened to be reviewing the Bloat page in GK 101 and it mentioned that bloat can cause founder... http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=26.0 
Was thinking if she got bloat while she was gone.... not from the steady diet you've been giving her but if she snuck into the grain there or got bloat off all that fresh grass....


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

:hi :biggrin

Yes, more selenium than copper. Twice as much. 1000 ppm for copper and 2000 ppm for selenium.

*Correction, I need a nap, apparently. (I moved my decimal the wrong way.) It's 10 ppm for copper and 20 ppm for selenium. (I think. I'm still tired today!)*


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

hsmomof4 said:


> :hi :biggrin
> 
> Yes, more selenium than copper. Twice as much. 1000 ppm for copper and 2000 ppm for selenium.


 :shocked :shocked :shocked That is a massive amount of selenium.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

OK, I think it's actually 100 and 200 ppm respectively, and I see it's designed to be fed a tablespoon at a time. That makes more sense.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Actually, we're both wrong! That's what I get for doing math when I'm tired. 

Ok, for copper, it's 0.001% That's actually, if you convert the percent to regular numbers, 0.00001 (Just like 50% is 0.5). Anyhow, 0.00001 is the same as 1/100,000 or 1 per hundred thousand. So it would be 10 per million, or 10 ppm. And selenium would be 20 ppm.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Selenium in feed and minerals is USDA controlled, the only way of getting more in the diet is to add more products with it in it, give injections, try the oral pastes and someone please do a blood test just once to see if it even works....or by having a mineral or grain custom mixed with more selenium in it.....the mill owner would likely make you sign a waiver of some sort. Vicki


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