# Need a wormer program STAT



## goat girl (Dec 11, 2007)

:help :help :help :help
Many of you helped talk me through my sick doeling--topic "Help with very sick doe". We put her down last night. The vet is pretty sure a heavy load of strongyls---which he found eggs in was what caused her to die--opened her up for another infection to set in. When he found the eggs last week in her he told me to deworm all my goats with febendazole. I purchased "Safe-gaurd dewormer for goats--suspension 10% (100 mg/ml) (fenbendazole)." I followed the directions--2.3ml per 100 pounds of weight. I dewormed the goats. Then today took samples in from two of my goats. They still had strongyl eggs. He said for me to repeat this dewormer, double the dosage and repeat daily for three days. Then to bring in another sample in five to seven days. He then said my ground is probably infested and should repeat dewormer on a monthly basis through the summer. What do you all think? I know I need to get my worm problem under control---Stupidly I never worried too much about worming---did it at kiddding time and once in the summer. I never set up a regular program. I need one now. We live in Kansas and it is VERY cold right now.--don't know if this influences any advice. Now I am pretty new to goats and like things as straight forward as possible. So if any of you all could give me a straight forward dewormer program that you would recommend I would REALLY apprrecialte it. 
One person locally has told me she uses sulmet and swears by it. But I believe I read on this board that that is a coccidiastat. Should I treat for that too? I DEFINITELY need some mentoring on this. I don't want to lose any more goats if I can help it.
Thanks!
Christine


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## Melissa (Oct 27, 2007)

any worms pooped out now will likely die if the ground is below freezing for several days. when you took the sample in after worming how many days did you wait between worming and taking in samples? it sounds like it was the very next day, if so you need to wait a few days to see any affect with the wormer. I only worm after fecals show that I need to, even in summer, unless I can *see* it's worms (pale gums, lids). we have a HORRED time with coccis here. I bottle feed my babies and use Dicox M in their bottles. for the boer babies I have them on corid every 21 days for 5 days. when old enough to eat a good amt of pellets you can switch them to the medicated ones. I HAVE to stay on top of cocci or it will kill in a matter of hours. for grown does I use cydection orally. It's labeled for cattle as pore-on and vets can't recommend it because your using it differently than what it's labeled for, but I'll tell you, it works. I'm unfamiliar with safe-guard, meaning "I don't use it" so someone else will have to help you out their. 

-Melissa


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2008)

Melissa, Safeguard around here is about like pouring water down them. I remember dad having trouble with worms 15 years ago here because he was using safeguard and it wasn't touching the worm problem. Use cydectin at 1cc/ 22 lb orally or Ivomec or Ivomec Plus at 1cc/25 lb for worms.
Some will tell you that Ivomec won't work around here either. I have used it and done fecals and it still works for me so far, at this higher dosage.


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## baileybunch (Oct 26, 2007)

See Sue Reith's articles in Goat 101 and follow Vicki's advice. I have learned to rely on the wisdom and knowlege of the experienced goat keepers. Whatever my vet says, I always double-check products, dosages, and protocol with this group before moving forward. It can save your goats.


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## baileybunch (Oct 26, 2007)

You will also read to repeat your dewormings in 10 days and repeat again in 10 days if you have a big problem...read Sue Reith's articles, follow Vicki's advice, get fecal egg counts.


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

You can use ivermectin cattle injectable 1 cc per 50lbs

cydectin 1 cc per 25lb.

Get weights and use either wormer orally

Worm again 10 days later and again 10 days from then. If you have that heavy of a worm load this should take care of things.

Second what are you doing that is causing a heavy worm load besides not worming enough and listening to your vet ? Are you feeding hay and grain on the ground were it can be covered in poop? Hay and grain should be fed were goats cannot step in it and leave feces. are you using a good mineral with enough copper ? How about bo-se ? All of these thing done correctly will help with you worm load.

Hope this helps.

Patty


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Safeguard does not work here either, haven't used it on goats in over a decade. I use Cydectin Pour-On for Cattle given Orally 1cc/22 lbs. it comes in 500 ml bottles at the feedstore, marked for cattle. it is purple and smells like kerosens. Pull it up in a needle-less syringe and give to goats by mouth.

A white wormer is needed to get rid of tape worms. so use valbezan 1 cc / 10 lbs. (Safeguard is also in this class)


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Eggs on the ground with 48 hours of below freezing temps will die .

worming every 10 days kills worms in certain stages doing it every month with miss that time frame and you will be no further ahead.

Study the lifecycle of the worms and it will then make sense to you.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Darn Patty, I didn't know it took 48 hours of below freezing temp! That don't happen often here! I thought that if it froze hard overnight, like in the 20s and there was ice formed on the troughs in the morning and the ground was a little crispy, that that would really help. We may not get 48 hours below freezing this year :?


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2008)

I worm with Cydectin pre breeding, day 100 of pregnancy with Ivermectin Plus and on the day they kid with Cydectin then 10 days later with Valbezen. I have found that doing copper boluses every 4-6 months helps build resistance to worms. I fecal once a month and worm when there are more than 20 eggs on the slide. Kids are wormed with Valbazen at 3 weeks, 6 weeks and 9 weeks, 12 weeks then I move to Cydectin. I have a separate kid barn so this works for me. Also, if you can set up a worming pen so they are not dumping worms where they live it will help.

For cocci prevention I use 
Di-Methox 40%

For prevention: 1cc per 10 pounds the first day, days 2, 3, 4 and 5 use 1/2 the dosage. Do it every 20 days. Count from the first day you started and count forward to 20. Repeat until the kids are six month of age.

I have read that chemical aspriation or inhalation pnemonia are 2 reasons why some people don't like using sulmet, it's way to much drug to put in the mouth. 

Christy

*edited to add cocci prevention


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## goat girl (Dec 11, 2007)

Okay--wow lots of info. Thanks! As for how long between worming and testing--- 9 days.

I read the posts by sondra in goat keeping 101. I recall several of my goats having a dry cough so I am going to treat for lung worms with levamisole. But I also know that they have strongyls--at least according to my vet. On one of sondra's articles it said to treat with ivermectin plus. Several of you stated you worm with cydectin. Are they in the same class?

also,my goats are pregnant--due end of March. does this change anything?

Christine


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

""""also,my goats are pregnant--due end of March. does this change anything?""""

Yes, you bet it does.......evidence suggest that some wormers may cause the doe to abort, ex specially in early pregnancy. You really need to find out from some folks on here with years of experience how to handle this situation the best . You are really facing 2 risk here......you have goats that are now maybe dyeing from worm burdens and that need worming, and the other would be to get this worm problem under control, and have some risk of loosing a pregnancy or two in the process. Of course if you loose your doe due to worms, you have lost both.
You can greatly reduce the risk of any of this by having a good pre-breeding worm program with a wormer that actually works in that area in which you live.
There is a post-kidding worming program with your doe's that you should use also. Just using these two methods, and doing it properly will make will make a big difference in the overall health of your adult animals.
This Springs kidding season for you is starting out kinda rough, and it may not be over yet. Next season don't have to be this way though. You can start making changes today that will benefit your herd in the long run, and long run is where you goal should be set. It's sometimes very hard to change course in mid flight like this, ex specially with your doe's in a heavy bred condition. 
There are some old timers on this forum that have been where you are, and have done that, and have learned from their mistakes......I advise you to seek out this knowledge from these old timers, and learn from them all that you can. Your herd will gain from it.

I'm gonna help you get a little head start on another problem before you get to it also... If your having this much problem with worm loads this time of the year in your adults, then you will most certainly be faced with a large worm problem in your kids this spring and summer......these worms will take your kids out lots faster than it would your adults. If you can, you need to get you a microscope and learn how to do your own fecal test, so that you can test often, and treat as needed. Your vet can do this for you for now, but I found that a good microscope pays for itself in vet bills, gas, and time, in no time at all.

I hope that you can get this situation under control without having any more losses to your herd.

Whim


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Cydectin here followed by Ivormec Plus 
If you follow Christy's protocal as she is more in your area you should be fine. 
But right now to get them up to speed use cydectin and then Ivormec Plus 10 days later and it will get them all then start on a normal routin like Chisty. Forget the safeguard and use it for kids for tapes if you still have it around. 
Also keep in mind I was not the one that wrote those articles in Goat 101 most of them were by Sue Reithwho you should read all her articles. I only posted them there. 
Also don't forget the copper bolus as Christy said too for your area.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

""""One person locally has told me she uses sulmet and swears by it. But I believe I read on this board that that is a coccidiastat. Should I treat for that too? """

I usually don't go out of my way to discredit what someone else advises......but in this case, and I mean no disrespect to them, but if they are telling you to use this as a worming agent, then I believe that they are giving you poor advice when it comes to your herd management. From now on, I would really investigate advice from this person to make sure that they know what they are talking about. If this treatment is working for her that well, then let me be the first to suggest that she didn't have a worm load problem to start with, but a cocci problem instead. 
You will most likely face a cocci problem also , so you will need to be prepared to deal with it too. Again, a microscope will help you determine what you are needing to treat for. Just throwing whatever meds, wormers, etc. at your goats for whatever reason that somebody gives you, is a poor management practice that usually catches up with you after some time. Doing this as a regular practice will develop resistance to meds and wormers, and it will get to the point where nothing will work for you.
You first need to have a good idea of what your treating for, and then treat with the proper meds that will solve the problem. You won't be right ever time, but you can do a lots of things that will put the odds in your favor each time. 
When you get past this treatment program, then concentrate on a sound prevention program, and you will avoid many of the problems that you are now faced with.

Whim


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

The one wormer you never use in pregnant does is Valbazen. We have used Ivermectin in does past 30 days pregnant without it hurting the babies.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

:biggrin I'm gonna edit my last post just a little bit, so please bare with me.

You can face cocci and worm problems both at the same time, and I really want you to understand that.

At least here at my place, I have found that the 2 can walk hand in hand......and it appears that each one can make the other ones symptoms worsen.......At least for me, when the cocci has been treated, then my worm loads are easier to control....and visa-versa. This probably has more to do with taking one kind of stress off of the animal, where it can deal better with the stress of having the other. It's best if you don't have an animal to the point of stress from either one.

Understand this......that most of our goats can/do handle a certain amount of cocci and worms without having a stressful effect on them. This is normal.... ....It's the overloads of the worms and cocci that are gonna cause your goats harm.


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## goat girl (Dec 11, 2007)

Okay I gave Ivermectin plus to all my goats. Lavasole pills (the kind you shoot down their mouth) to each of the goats and vit b complex to all of them. Now If I understand I should give cydectin in 10 days. and repeat the lavasole in 10 days too. Am I right?
Now I purchased cydectin (moxidectin) oral drench for sheep. I talked to Christy and she said that isn't the one most of you buy. Will this work? Do I use the same dosage--1cc per 25 pounds orally? Christy didn't know.
Thanks
Christine


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Ok I know nothing abt the sheep drench would say it is probably different we use cattle. 
I will see what I can find out on that and get back to you. shortly


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## Melissa (Oct 27, 2007)

I recommend getting the cattle pore on. don't tell your vet what it's for because if they hear that your using it other than what the label directs they get all upset. my vet has just learned to close her ears and eyes when I get supplies. 

-Melissa


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The amount of Levamisole sheep oblets you need to use will harm the rumen. This from Goat Medicine our only goat vet text.

Order your stuff yourself so you don't have to go through vets.

I also use Christy's schedule here. My does are due in March and just got their 100 day Ivermectin Plus...1cc per 30 pounds orally...will get cydectin cattle pouron at 1cc per 25 pounds the day they kid and Valbazen 10 days later, 1cc per 10 pounds orally. It's the only time of the year that I switch around wormers, the rest of the time I use Cydectin. I switch around wormers like that because I am going after speicific worms we have problems with, and I can't use Ivermectin Plus during the milking period because I sell milk. Vicki


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

> I also use Christy's schedule here


For the record I use Vicki's schedule  Our worm and copper issues are very similar to TX.

Christy


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

I think this is what you're wanting to know:

Cydectin® Pour-On for Cattle
*Contains 5 mg moxidectin/mL*
1ml/22#'s = 5mg moxidectin (cattle dose) also (goat dose used by most of us)

Cydectin® Oral Sheep Drench
*Contains 1 mg moxidectin/mL*
1ml/11#'s= 1mg moxidectin (recommended sheep dose)

As you can see, the sheep drench is *weaker* than the cattle pour-on....so if you are going to dose at the recommended dose for goats...you're going to have to use 5x's more of the sheep drench to get 5mg/ml. (To use the sheep drench at the dose of 5mg/22#'s you need to give 5cc's of the sheep drench for every 22#'s.)

This was also the dose (5mg/22#'s) given to me by a *goat* vet when Cydectin Cattle Pour-On first came out.

Learn to read drug lables. mg/ml is always posted on injectables/liquids. This WILL save you money. 

Hope this helps in explaining.
Kaye


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## goat girl (Dec 11, 2007)

You mention not using the Lavisole bullus because of the goat book. Since this is what I got, and I have already used it to treat them the first time, any clue if it would be okay to use this for the other 2 tyßßeatments and then dicontinue the bullus---(hate to fork out even more money now) Also Sue's article mentioned using the bullus. Any input?

Thanks for all the info everyone.
Christine


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I would wonder if you even got your dosage correct in using the oblets. How did you figure out your dosage? I know with the injectable levamisole which is labeled 2cc per 100 pounds, we used 3cc per 100 pounds with no problems, so perhaps you can figure out the drug differences. I don't know if it is the carrier with the oblets, or what but it's really spcific, and was also a warning given to use when using levamisole/levesole from Texas A&M. Vicki


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## goat girl (Dec 11, 2007)

I emailed Sue Reith about the bolus. This is what she replied---I print this with her permission:

January 28, 2008, at 06:32 PM, Sue Reith wrote:

> Hi, Christine...
>
> Trust me, the LAST info you want to follow is that coming from Mary > Smith's Goat Medicine book! EEK! Mary Smith has never raised a goat > in her entire life and has no hands' on experience with them > whatsoever.... What's worse, much of her book is written by students, > to earn grades from her to finish courses! (Give me strength, she > said!!!)
>
> The boluses for 50 lb livestock are fine to use on your goat, by > weight... And doesn't matter what kind of livestock it says they're > for... Goats, cows, sheep, no matter... ALL goat meds are used ' > off-label' routinely, since there isn't enough money made by the > producers of the product to go to the trouble of having it cleared by > the FDA for approval to label for all species...
>
> Giving a boluse, in my view, is a bit difficult, just because I'm > always afraid I might choke the patient... Actually it probably > doesn't happen often, if at ever.. That's just me being freaked out by > the process... Sorry! But as noted I recommend that you give it by > weight, providing enough of the bolus to meet the requirement for the > patient, and maybe pulverize it into a little yogurt and give to the > goat orally??? It'll need to be given again, repeating the same dose > and the same process, once every 10 days for at least 3 X in a row..., > and if you still have questions, please get back to me, OK?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Although I love Sue to death and her work on metobolic disease in pregnancy is invaluable to the goat world...I don't agree. Not only with this worm information since she is not in the south, but also on the Goat Medicine book. Just a leaf through the bibliography shows you that few to no studies were done locally... even in her state.

All we can do goat girl is tell you what we do, what works for us and more importantly what doesn't. I am sure if you search the internet you will find someone to agree with you.

My point is most wormers are given at substantially more when anything is labeled orally in sheep...so how do you know if what you are using is working? 50 pounds of body weight per oblet in sheep....by ivermectin sheep oral drench you would be using about 7 oblets per 50 pounds of goats...or Cydectin i think it's 3 times more so 3 oblets per 50....if this was all the same drug and it is not. WE use 1 and 1/2 times the amount in leveamisole injectable orally in a goat than you inject in a cow. So you can see quickly something for sheep would likely harm the rumen by the time you gave enough of them oblets. Vicki


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## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> I also use Christy's schedule here. My does are due in March and just got their 100 day Ivermectin Plus...1cc per 30 pounds orally...will get cydectin cattle pouron at 1cc per 25 pounds the day they kid and Valbazen 10 days later, 1cc per 10 pounds orally.


Vicki
Is there anything magical about 100 days for ivermectin plus? I've been using cydectin on the day they freshen & then ivermectin plus 10 days later.....I haven't been giving anything while they're pregnant. I currently have does due in Feb, some due in Mar & some in April....with some that I'm uncertain of the date. I had fecals run on them in Aug & everyone was fairly clear


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No. For me it's the first time in 10 months they are dry...Ivermectin around these parts won't touch HC worms, and the only time strongide problems are seen is in the winter here. Also we know we have liver flukes and lungworms in our area, and Ivermectin also gets the 4th stage HC arrested larve, so 100 days bred for us is the perfect time to use this wormer. Fecal sample is pretty meaningless here since there are few to no eggs in fecal, and since cool weather worms do not suck blood Famacha is also worthless with stomach worms that simply make your goats lose condition.

The girls also haven't been wormed in 100 days at that point. We are way passed the period that any drug is going to harm the fetus or cause a pregnancy to slip.

Selling milk I simply can't explain away a milk withdrawal of over 30 days to my customers, so I don't use it during lactation, and at 100 days bred no way is their anything in the milk when they freshen 50 days later  Vicki


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## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

On my does due in 2 weeks, would this be an OK time to give Ivermectin plus. & then do the cydectin at freshening? Or would it have been best to have given it earlier?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's fine. Although old rule of thumb was not to give wormers less than 10 days apart...I know that when purchasing goats "That had just been wormed" I have wormed them when I got them home...and now we give cocktails of two wormers for specific problems. But it's what I do...was all the liverfluke problems in your area last year? Than yes I would use it.


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## Dusty (Mar 18, 2008)

Has anybody tried the herbal wormer that Hoeggers sells? It says they have studies that show no resistance build up.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Unless you have enough pasture to rotate pastures and let the one sit long enough herbal wormers are not going to work in our areas Dusty I haven't tried it but am not taking the chance either. Tho I would love to be total herbal or holistic it just isn't fisable on my small amount of land.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Dusty this was a 6th graders science fair project. It also was used against Ivermectin injected at label dosages, which we know only work to kill one type of lice and mites. The herbal wormer killed more tapes than Ivermectin when Ivermectin won't kill any tapes even if you fed the whole bottle. A 6th grader, and was able to identify tapes? Also several species of lungworm when I send fecal into a special lab to run a Bherman test that even my local vet can't run? And several species of worms that we know most mix up routinely, especially vet techs.

It makes good internet fodder, sells alot of product for Hoeggers, and then others selling untested herbal things use this testing by hoeggers as more fodder to sell their products. All the while hundreds of goats die each year of worms because of it. 

Stay on the forum, it will happen over and over this spring, emergencies with diarrhea, death by anemia, loss of kids, loss of milk and loss of milkers. Not worming and herbal wormers run pretty neck and neck as the cause of both. Bitter, yep, they leave a bitter taste in my mouth. It is a disservice to the goat industry not to disclose the above when they advertise their products with this 'study' and shame on UCN.....for allowing this article to be published in this caliber of magazine!!!! Vicki


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