# Pot Bellied?



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Non-goat people at my boarding stable keep asking me if my girls are pregnant. When I say no. They ask if they are wormy. I think this is because they have big deep bellies. I've already confirmed with the board that they aren't fat, and I'm worming them every three weeks with quest, which is what I was told to do here, if I'm not going to do fecals... so should I continue to ignore these people?


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## freedomfrom4 (Nov 4, 2009)

Big belly's = big rumen = Good

I didn't think we were spossed to deworm like that. I thought that was for cocci prevention?


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

The best way to tell when and with what to worm with is to fecal. If you do not have a microscope then take a fresh sample in to the vet, cost is close to ten dollars. Now if it is for tapes or pinworms then use a white wormer like safegaurd or panacur. 
Otherwise
"Big belly's = big rumen = Good"

Our does eat ALOT of hay and look it  
Tam


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Explain that dairy goats are ruminants, so 4 chambers of a hugh stomach are in there....they are not single stomached like horses/dogs/pigs and the other livestock being boarded there. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I would be surprised if anyone on this forum advised you to worm every 3 weeks. 
That is a sure way to breeding super worms!
Rethink the health of your animals please. Liver failure comin right up!
Well not right up but maybe at about 5 or 6 years right when they peak in performance.

Lee


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

I thought 'birth til kidding' said to worm every 3 weeks until weaned?


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

I believe what your refering to is you dose for coccidia every 3 weeks until weaned. Totally different type of medication.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Worming babies is every three weeks also, but I am under the impression that the original poster's goats are adults, in which case every three weeks is waaay overkill.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

I have folks ask if my open/early bred does are pregnant all the time. They think I'm kidding when I say "Nope, that's just a big healthy rumen!" :lol


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Jamie has 3 kids from this year, they are also on property that she is leasing, and has no idea what is in the soil. She also lives in an area with no freeze. Worming and cocci treating once a month, until the month after weaning, is excellent advice for our area, it also gives new folks time to learn to fecal, so by the time the kids are 4 or 5 or 6 months old and weaned, they have learned to fecal from the forum, read posts on the forum about stunted, small, sickly kids who are not on prevention and the kids are well grown with super immunity to cocci or are on a feed through pellet that contains deccoquinate or rumensin to continue to help them along. It also sets a really good management program that works here, so that next years kids are raised out exactly the same way with the same excellent results. Biggy is she won't be plagued with big fat dry yearlings next year, she will have big tall growthy young milkers. Vicki


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

So now that I've got the girls weaned, I NEED to do fecals? Do I just scoop any poop from the pen and take it in? Do I treat all of them the same even though I've got both March and April kids? Buying a microscope is not in the budget at this time, so it'll have to be at a vet's office. 

I remember being told that quest was the best wormer to use if you weren't going to do fecals. If I do fecals, I assume I'll use whatever targets the 'worm' I'm after.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

You want fresh poop. And all that that entails.  (And even better if you know whose poop is whose.)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I just put a ziplock baggie on my hand, inside out like a glove. I take the girls for a walk into the woods and wait for someone to poop. Pick the poop up with the gloved hand, hold onto the poop and the bag and turn it right side out and zip it...into the fridge and get my stuff ready. Call and ask if your vet uses a chambered slide or if they will and if they can idenify the eggs for you. Really in our area you are looking for numbers of HC...300 to 500 eggs per gram and you really need to worm....3000 to 5000 last fall and winter when the girls are pregnant, we rarely see HC on fecal then, be it the worming pre breeding or the girls heightened immunity when pregnant? No idea. Microscopes to run fecals need not be expensive, the only real bell or whistle you even want is that it has an electric (plug in) light source, you don't want to buy a reflector type....4H kids in my daughters group all learned at club how to run their own fecals, several using microscopes from Toys R us. We had a very large herd back then so you can imgaine that we didn't want to worm unless we had to, it was soo expensive. 

Just alternate which doe you pick up poop from each month.

IF you go to club meetings simply ask for them to have a fecal refresher course, they did them every couple of years back when I had time to go.

Oh, and also ask about cost, because in the worming section we do have the address for a lab that runs fecals. Vicki


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Jamie has 3 kids from this year, they are also on property that she is leasing, and has no idea what is in the soil. She also lives in an area with no freeze. Worming and cocci treating once a month, until the month after weaning, is excellent advice for our area, it also gives new folks time to learn to fecal, so by the time the kids are 4 or 5 or 6 months old and weaned, they have learned to fecal from the forum, read posts on the forum about stunted, small, sickly kids who are not on prevention and the kids are well grown with super immunity to cocci or are on a feed through pellet that contains deccoquinate or rumensin to continue to help them along. It also sets a really good management program that works here, so that next years kids are raised out exactly the same way with the same excellent results. Biggy is she won't be plagued with big fat dry yearlings next year, she will have big tall growthy young milkers. Vicki


This is working like a charm for me.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes- I would suggest that you fecal a 6 month old goat instead of using a crutch of worming every 21 days. It is a mistake to worm so often you are not allowing them to experience some parasite chemistry to stimulate development of immunoregulation of parasite populations.

I regret I can no longer access some of the best journals on parasite research but there are great articles out there about studies showing that young animals can develop resistance to parasites with immune response supported by optimum nutrition and adequate mineral supplements but it requires exposure to the parasites. Humoral and cellular immune responses to parasites in small ruminants have been studied extensively and it does require exposure to the infective species. There is evidence in studies of specifically infected animals in blood cells and mucosal tissues and lymph tissues indicative of development of immunity. 

If you have a helpful vet who subscribes to the journals on parasitology perhaps you can read up on this and add it to your base of knowledge for designing a control program that does not include just dosing just in case. Maturing into summer weather should mean you need no more chemical intervention until fall pre-breeding.

Lee


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Karin Christiansen's "Biology of the Goat" is an excellent place to begin your research: http://www.goatbiology.com/. As dry as it's been here in Texas this year, deworming won't be quite as big an issue as it is during years when we have a lot of rain. Jamie, correct me if I'm wrong, but your goats are being boarded at a horse facility, correct? Pluses to this are that in a pasture situation the horses will take up most of the goat parasites in the grass. Minuses are that goats can be infected with horse parasites (strongyles in particular) and you'll need to be sure and treat them accordingly if a fecal shows infestation by parasites other than haemonchus contortus. In dry lot conditions where goats haven't been the primary resident, parasite problems should be minimized. Your main concern may need to be with coccidia rather than haemonchus, something all of your kids probably brought with them to their new quarters. Pot bellies can be an indication of an overgrowth of coccidia. . .


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

I was really good about doing corrid every 20 days until they were eating well. Can a goat get coccidia even on a feed through?


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

You won't kill every parasite, nor do you want to. What the Corid treatments and medicated feed do is keep the numbers of coccidia low enough so the goat can build up a resistance to the parasites.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

JamieH said:


> I was really good about doing corrid every 20 days until they were eating well. Can a goat get coccidia even on a feed through?


They have to eat enough to get the correct dose of med. I expect breakthroughs would be possible with severe nutritional deficiency or unsanitary conditions heavy with coccidia.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

My girls eat all they want of medicated feed. They also get free choice hay and alfalfa pellets. They always eat the medicated feed first. They love it, it isn't mixed with anything. They have a clean pen, it doesn't smell. I rake out the berries about once a week. They never have runny poo. They are in a feed lot situation, but their new pen does have some grass in it, it hasn't been used as pasture for other animals. Their old pen was used by pigs before they were in it, but clean dirt was brought in. Their new pen hasn't been used by animals in years. It was used for tractor parking. I've talked to my dog vet about doing fecals and they seem interested. Eventually I'll buy a microscope to do my own fecals. They don't seem sick to me. Would anyone be interested in showing me an unhealthy looking nubian belly? I'll post pics of my girls from several angles tonight.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

This is a recent photo from this weekend, but it doesn't really show the issue. The belly sticks out more to the sides than it does to the ground, especially on my older does (march kids). The bigger does weigh around 80. The younger two weigh around 65- 70 (april kids). I want them to be 100 lbs by December, so those weights make me happy. I'm just a nervous nellie and the constant questions when non-goat people see my goats really makes me question my self. 
I also think they look patchy, but of course I can't tell if they are just growing their coats back in from the may show clip, or if they need copper. I should also note that a lot of people tell me they look healthy and amazing, but again... I'm a worry wort.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

That is NOT a pot belly. You want as much gut expansion as you can get. They need it to reduce huge amts of large fibers to be healthy. You do not want gut with ribs and hip bones showing- that is a pot belly. That is poor health and parasites. Your doelings look normal- I would be working for more gut myself. I love a big barrel because I know they can carry multiples- pack in chow and convert it to tons of milk!

I don't know if you just cleaned but if there is no hay on the ground they are not eating hay and so are getting too much pelleted ration or grain. They need to be stuffing those guts with hay with a small topper of a ration to boost any deficiency the hay has. If they are not working- ie gestating- lactating they should mostly be eating hay. 
Pushing weight gains with grain is like feeding a young plant too much fertilizer- quick weak growth will result and you will pay for it later with a myriad of issues. 
Stop worrying -they look perfectly normal. 
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

My kids will eat their alfalfa pellets over grass hay anyday...older yearlings and milkers will eat hay and browse and leave alfalfa pellets in the feeder. It's why I give alfalfa hay to my kids this age. With our woods pen open to the kids now, they would rather be out browsing and than anything else.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

I think I see a big hay rack full of hay in the corner of the pen, so they're getting plenty of hay from the looks of things. Jamie - if non-goat people ask you about your girls' bellies, you might explain to them that they're ruminants and their stomachs look big because their packed full of semi-digested fiber that they'll be regurgitating and chewing up (e.g., chewing their cuds);-) That should make them stop and think! LOL 

I would, however, caution you about a couple of things that I do see in your picture . . . one is the hay rack. Be very sure that they can't get their heads stuck in it. The other is the water trough. Putting it up higher will mean less chance of them soiling it, even if they have to step up on cinder blocks to drink out of it.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I think what Lee meant was that unless this photo was taken 5 minutes after this pen was raked, if they were eating this hay, it would be strewn all over the ground


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Caroline...when my goats eat hay out of a rack like that - it is all over the ground which is why I mentioned it assuming she had raked before taking the photo. Many people overfeed grain or sweet ration or pellets because the goats 'like' it and so they are never hungry enough to really pack in the hay. I know she provides hay- I was questioning as to if they were eating enough of it for building nicely sprung barrel.
Lee


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Thank you for the replies! I had just moved them to this pen, it is newly built. They hadn't really had a chance to eat the hay. I did feed alfalfa hay until about a month ago. The hay was coming in already yellow instead of green, so I switched them over to alfalfa pellets and coastal hay. I have seen them eating the coastal, but of course the pellets must be long gone before they will even consider it. Is yellow alfalfa better than coastal with alfalfa pellets? They still get all the medicated feed they want. 

They do soil the water, and I have to change it daily. Such a pain! I will put it on blocks and give them blocks to step up on. I keep the hay rack VERY full so they won't get caught, but I'm having my dad build a safer rack asap.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

more photos!


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Awwww... look at their sweet little faces...

No, they are not "pot-bellied" they are fine. Whoever is telling you that is simply ignorant and does not know any better. 

Goats will particularly swell on the left side because that is where the rumen is. I've had people come here and ask me when a particular goat is going to have babies... all the while pointing at a buck... :lol When I send mine out to pasture, they come in HUGE from eating forage all day long. That's just normal! Horses are not like that of course, but then, goats are not horses.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks! I had a very very fat horse once =)


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Non-goat people are asking, that should say it all. They dont have goats and have no idea what a "normal" goat is supposed to look like. So dont worry about what they say or ask, your goats look great.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Your girls look really nice! As for the yellow alfalfa hay, I would do just what you are doing. It is much better, in my opinion, to have grass hay and alfalfa pellets than poor quality alf hay.


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## Rosesgoats (Apr 22, 2011)

Wow! What a difference between raising goats in Texas compared to where I am! Those look like my 2 year olds and I think you said they were April kids! They're very nice. My Nubians have a hard time breaking 40# by 9 months old. Too short of a growing season and not enough available forage to make mine grow like that. Argh!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Rose, that simply isn't true. If you were using our prevention protocoals for worms and cocci you would have well grown kids also. Couple that with learning how to fecal and that is the only secret bullet with goats. Keep the kid crop small, sell or eat what you can't use, pour the milk to them and get them on grain first. Now if the goats are actually starving of nutrients yes, they won't grown, but growth is nearly always about parasites.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Hi Rose - we expect our kids to gain about 10 lbs per month. In order to do this, we feed them plenty of milk for the first 12 weeks (sometimes longer if there's a surplus . . . right now we have three May doelings that are still sharing a gallon of milk in the morning and another gallon in the evening). Kids are given a CD&T shot and dewormed (with a combination of Valbazen and Ivomec given orally) at 4, 8 and 12 weeks of age. They're kept in small groups depending on their ages until they're weaned and even then we try not to put more than 6-8 kids per pen. Additionally, I treat one time with Baycox, an oral coccidiacide, when the kids are between 3-6 weeks of age. If anyone breaks with diarrhea after that they get treated with five days of Albon or Corid (depending on what I happen to have on hand) on an individual basis. We begin offering feed, hay and water when the kids are three weeks old, changing the feed out every day if they don't eat it. By the time they're weaned, the kids are each eating 1 lbs of feed (16% pellet mixed with beet pulp and sweet feed) morning and evening and free choice hay. Everyone has different protocols for raising their goats; this is just the way we do it.


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## Rosesgoats (Apr 22, 2011)

Well, my doe kids are wormy so that's probably the problem.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We can fix that....then raise the kids on a schedule next year, your goal should be no days of diarrhea, by the time worms or cocci are causing diarrhea your looking at scar tissue in the intestine (because the diarrhea is the lining of the intestine sloughing). The intestine is then scarred, nutrients can not be absorbed in this scarred lining, so even fed the same as another doe, this kid will never grow out to be what it could have been. With nearly all immunity coming from a healthy intestine, it becomes doubly important to the wellbeing of the doe for life. Your going to be on here bragging about you next years kid crop! Vicki


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

The girl on the far right has GORGEOUS ears!! They are all pretty


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Pot-bellied? Nope. More like BUTTERBALLS!! :rofl Here is one of my March kids...raised on Vicki's 'Birth til Kidding' in GK101. :biggrin


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