# Doe is pressing her head against barn wall..



## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

What does it mean? She is obviously miserable. She's foaming a little at the mouth. Not huge foamy slobbers, more like over working her cud. But she is rubbing her face and head on the walls. Last night I drenched her with water and baking soda, gave her baking soda freechoice which she ate quite a bit of. I do not have banamine but was told I could give her aspirin, which I did. 

She walked out of the shed to meet me at the gate this morning. I took her some warm water. She's 131 days bred. If this is acidosis, the only thing I did different was give them more alfalfa pellets and grass hay (they have always had grass hay along with the alfalfa). They have been eating both for a very long time and I gave them 4 scoops at once on Monday. Usually I give them two in the morning, then two at night. There was still at least a scoop full, maybe more, after they'd had their fill. So, it's not like the gobbled it all up. This amount was shared by 4 goats.

Yall are going to think I'm stupid, but she is so darn big that I can't tell if she's bloated or not just by looking at her. 

Or could this be ketosis? Yesterday evening she was just plain miserable. Acted like she didn't want to walk. She was standing by herself a lot. Just kind of nosed around in the trough while others were eating. She just isn't herself and this is the first time for her to be pregnant at my place, so I have no idea what is normal for her.


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## catdance62 (Mar 2, 2009)

Have you taken her temp?


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

No I haven't. Each time I try she fights me. She is very moody all of a sudden and doesn't want me anywhere near her hind end. She threw a fit for me to check her ligs and feel her udder.


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

She just ran to the feeder for her alfalfa pellets and started eating. No more foamy mouth. Should I be giving her grain to prevent ketosis? I'm friends with a obherhasli breeder in AZ that said she doesn't give any of her does grain up until 10 days from kidding. And even then it's just a couple of handfuls. 

I'm really concerned about the hay issue. We took the alfalfa hay out of the feeder Monday. I'm tired of feeding that stemmy trash. So now they are on grass hay only, and alfalfa pellets. Well, they aren't eating the grass hay. They have done this to me before, they are picky and turn their noses up at grass hay after having alfalfa. Yesterday I put 2 big blocks of grass in their feeder and it is still there, untouched this morning. Could this upset their stomachs? Eating alfalfa pellets and not eating any of their hay?


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Are you offering Baking Soda? 
Tam


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Yes. Freechoice and I have also been going out and giving her a baking soda/warm water drench.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I would have already started her on a handful or so of grain, but since she isn't acting like herself now, I am not sure what I would do. I would offer the stemmy alfalfa hay for now along with the grass and the pellets. This winter my girls were fed wheat straw (bedding) just like it was feed hay. I put it out in their feeders because mine won't touch grass hay either. That way they got their roughage they needed along with the alf pellets. But again, not sure it is a good idea to introduce anything new to your girl until she is back to feeling good.


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## dawnwinddg (Aug 29, 2010)

Carli, 
If more of your goats were headpressing, I would suggest that you might have high sulfur (maybe from the water?) that is contributing to vitamin B1 (Thamine) deficiency. But, since it is only this doe, ketosis (pregnancy toxemia) seems more likely. The similar symptoms in either case would be from lack of glucose to the brain. Propylene glycol, a homemade drench(1 part Molasses, 2 parts Karo syrup, 1 part Corn Oil) or a similar high energy supplement would assist in keeping her from going ketotic.

Good luck,
Frances


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Please do not use this majic (this came in with boer goats)....I simly don't understand where the logic of giving oil to a doe, into her rumen makes any sense at all if you aren't going to tube her with oil to relieve bloat. It makes her rumen more sluggish just as you don't want it to be. 

Carli, please go to goatkeeping 101 and read Sue Reiths articles, on how to feed a pregnant doe. Also the article on ketosis, Hypocalcemia and Ketosis and how to tell the difference...or something like that. Without grain the doe has no energy, she needs energy, calories and fat, that can not come from hay, to grow out 2 or 3 eight pound kids. If she starts using up her fat stores to produce the energy, as soon as they are depleted she will go into ketosis, which is really starvation mode. Then you start down the road of propolyne glycol by mouth, which burns her throat, causes acidosis in her rumen and makes her stop eating. Her blood pressure rises and it kills the kids, so by the time you are trying to abort her to save the kids, they are long dead which makes for tragic deliveries because most problems in kidding are from dead kids. She then has so little energy, calcium that she doesn't have good contractions, if she lives through it this repeats every year until she finally dies in pregnancy/delivery. There diet has to contain both calcium daily along with the energy, fat and colories grain gives you the last 50 days of pregnancy. I am not talking about pounds of grain either, even a cup of grain will work. Right now her only protein is in the alfalfa you are offering, but make sure and read your bags, an alfalfa pellet in my area just moved from 100% dehydrated alfalfa meal at 17% minimum...to a 15% with grain by products in it, free choice that as new alfalfa pellets and it can cause bloat and acidosis.

If you have to wrestle her to the ground get that temp, its' going to be key in how you treat her...I would get CMPK injectable now from the vet or order in the 23% calcium gluconate.

Have you talked to your friend in AZ about what to do now? Do you know her well enough to know she is telling you the truth about the mortality rate of her milkers and kids at kidding time? Do you admire her stock? Does she have nubians? You don't have to answer these questions but it is something to think about...there are those who don't have others best interests at heart when they give such poor information like that. V


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Very good information. Thanks everyone.

The mention of too much sulphur in the water is a good point. We are on public water and there has been a boil ban for a month now. I had a steam vapor humidifier going in my child's bedroom one night and I woke up to a VERY strong sulphur smell. It literally smelled like someone had lit at least a dozen matches. That was the day a water line in town broke and was repaired. It really hadn't dawned on me, but if the water isn't safe for us to drink, then it isn't safe for out animals either. 

Thanks Vicki for the advice. I have started her on grain. As for what was going on the other night, I have no idea. The only thing I treated her for was acidosis, giving her plenty of baking soda. I stayed up with her most of the night and it really seemed like her stomach was hurting. She was moaning and biting at her sides. I associated the head pressing with pain. About an hour after the soda and warm water she felt well enough to lay down. The next morning she was fine, and still is. I just can't figure out what caused it. One thing I did give her was honey. I did not have molasses or corn syrup so, thinking that it was ketosis, I gave her 3 ounces of honey. 

I have CMPK and 23% calcium gluconate. I also picked up propylene glycol, vitamin B complex, and pH strips yesterday. 


I am going to seperate her from the others today in order to make sure she is getting all that she needs to finish out her pregnancy. Up until a month ago, 4 of my does were sharing a 3 quart scoop of grain every day. I started to worry about them becoming over weight due to confinement and gradually cut it down to no grain. I was associating overweight to ketosis and "lack of energy" causing ketosis just slipped my mind  Anyways, the good news is that whatever happened to her the other night, even though it was scary, opened my eyes to a problem and maybe now I have time to correct it. Thanks for the advice everyone.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Glad to hear she is better.


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Thanks Michelle. I ended up giving her the stemmy alfalfa, despite the poor quality. She needed it.


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## dawnwinddg (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm glad to hear she is doing better as well.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

I am with Vicki that a doe thet is not feeling well is only bound to feel worse with stuff like propylene glycol, majic, nutridrench, etc. Taking a temp a first basic thing to make a call on a situation and put the doe on a milk stand to take her temp or have someone hold her so you can take it.

Carli, I second the CMPK (injectable if possible) - if you have injectible you don't need the gluconate. You commented before that you liked the condition of our does, I follow Vicki's management per Goatkeeping 101 to the T . Piecing parts of management from different herds will only get you in trouble down the road. Pick a good mentor and stick with them, do what they do if you want the results they have.

I have to say that this year we have made a major improvement with does that kidded on alfalfa pellets (17% protein) all year, the entire pregnancy and kidding with good flesh, no problems, plenty of milk. Last year I was pulling hair here with runs on just fresh milkers, poor body condition, etc. feeding dead looking alfalfa hay that was brown and stemmy at that point and looked about as nutritious as the leaves still around from the fall. and that was some really nice hay when it was baled and stored. Just not 6 months later. My FF look better than FF in other herds, they have better coats on them, more flesh on them, I am merely worming out of habit - prevention routine worming post kidding but I could not be happier with the herd this year - milkers, kids, does who are yet to kid. The only thing I am changing is offering them more browse in our back pasture but I am not changing a thing because this really does work.

Sorry, I sound like a broken record, but I don't plan to reinvent a wheel here if someone has successfully done it for years now - its so much easier to follow in their footsteps. While there are some wonderful herds out there and their management works nicely for them, if their climate or worm loads are different, their quality of forage, their defficiences, then the management won't work here. Arizona is a desert climate, nothing like we have here or you have in Texas.

So glad your doe is better , you can give Benamine for the pain, even if its upset tummy from acidic rumen - it won't hurt and it can help a lot. Vet Rx and one I won't be caught dead without, along with injection CMPK, BoSe and Naxcel in my freezer.

Its a steep learning curve, go back and find my questions just a year ago, its embarassing to say the least so don't ever feel bad about asking or tweaking management to get where you want to be  But having a local mentor who raises animals in the same area is priceless.

Jana
www.oldpathshomestead.com


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