# Doe with loose stools for a month!



## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

sorry this is a bit long but I wanted to give all of the info I could think of!

Hi my name is Arden and this is my first time to post here, but I have a problem that I have been unable to solve. I have a 2 year old FF Oberhasli doe (ELSA) who has had loose stools for a month now. 
Here is the history… 2nd week in July, we took her to Nationals in Louisville to show, she was doing great. Some of my goats, (only took 4), including her, started to get snotty noses around Wednesday or Thursday at the Nat’l. About this same time she developed loose/clumpy stools. At this point I was not really concerned about the loose stools as you see many goats at the shows with clumped poop. I started with a dose of Teramycin powder mixed in their water for two days (which they drank) but didn’t like that because I didn’t know how much each one was getting. When we got home I gave her a couple of days of Dimethox 12.5% from Hoegger because I saw that it also treated pneumonia symptoms. At this point the respiratory symptoms still persisted and was catching on to other goats who stayed home so I called the vet about the snotty noses and picked up some Nuflor. She received a total three doses of Nuflor given every other day. 

The respiratory problems were pretty much resolved at this point but the loose stools had continued. Some days being looser than others… mostly the consistency of cow poop. During this whole time she has been getting a dose of powdered probios (Kid Plus from Hoegger) in her feed. I took a fecal sample to the vet and it came back as clean for worms & coccidia. The vet said to put her on the sulfadimethoxine which I didn’t understand at this point because he said that her fecals were clean so I didn’t do it. I got some of the Scour Halt (pink pig stuff) and tried it for a couple of days. No change. I tried the old remedy of 1 TBLS cinnamon. No Change. I decided to leave her alone and quit messing with her thinking that maybe all of these meds were just aggravating the situation so I just kept feeding and milking her and giving her probios and a couple of TUMS with each feeding. The stools seemed to start forming some substance, maybe even little clumps if you looked hard. This was about last Wednesday. I had a new vet (supposed to be good with goats) come out to do health papers for upcoming shows this month and she drew blood on all my goats and also I sent her a fecal sample just to double check. She called back next day and stated that the fecal was clear for worms or cocci and to just leave her be and see if she didn’t continue to improve. So a week has passed and her stools were not normal but more "formed". Well starting last night I saw a “cow pile” poop in the goat yard and like a detective went around waiting for everyone to poop and sure enough Elsa has very loose stools again! Also somewhat off feed. Temp normal at 103.4 I am at a loss and don’t know what to do! I called the vet this morning and she said to get some Sustain 3 calf boluses and give one per 50# but if I didn’t feel comfortable using the balling gun (which I don’t) to crush them and give as a drench. Also to give 5cc of B Complex IM and continue with the probios. I HATE putting her back on meds & shots but don't know what else to do. I am TOTALLY OPEN to any comments at this point but think that I should follow what she says. I trust that she is good with goats.


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm not much help with this stuff. But just wondering if your probiotic is effective? I would try a different one. Kefir, yogurt (with live cultures) or probios.


----------



## ali923 (Aug 8, 2008)

I had that same problem with one of my babies last summer. For 2 months (the whole summer) she had diarrhea and got sooooo skinny. I had tried everything- probios, scour halt, penecillan, kaopectate, albon, omega 3 for extra stuff. She also had respiratory symptoms, sounds just like your doe. I did treatments in rounds. Penecillan first with the extra stuff (probios and omega) along with scour halt. I also wormed her. She got better and then worse again. Then I tried a round of albon incase it was coccidia. Then better then worse. I kept giving her the extra stuff to help her, cause her nutrition was suffering (obviously). Anyway, I felt useless, nothing I was doing was helping, but she hadn't stopped eating. I gave it a rest for 2-4 weeks and still no change. Then I did the same rounds of treatments as I did before and she all of a sudden got better. Don't ask me what was wrong with her, I never got fecals. But I don't think it was either cocci or worms cause I treated her for both unless the wormer wasn't doing its job. The only thing I can suggest because the vet said no to worms and cocci is to give her slippery elm along with clabbered milk (let a gallon of milk go bad and get nice and nasty and clumpy) shake it up good before you give some to her. Give her a couple of ounces twice a day and give her 2 slippery elm capsules a day(get at a health food store-good for people). I am a believer in slippery elm and the clabbered milk (will do the same as the kefir or yogurt that ashley suggested) but i have always had positive results with clabbered milk and slippery elm. Besides, slippery elm is a natural herb that soothes the digestive tract, not a med. It could just be as simple as her digestive tract getting irritated because of all the meds. I have had goats go through that. Hope she gets better.
allison


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

get some slippery elm from the health food store ( in Goat 101 there is an article abt it I think)
Now if this were my goat she would not get any grain at all for a few days. Alfalfa pellets and grass hay would be what I would feed her. Banamin to help the gut. I would put baking soda out and give B Complex but I give it sq myself. probios daily and it may be that your kid stuff is not enough so get some from the feed store. Give the bolus that the vet suggested and wait a couple days and see if improved. I would also BOSE all my goats to build immunity up. Then when you go back to grain, introduce it very very slowly 1/2 cup at a feeding gradually increasing.


----------



## Guest (Aug 14, 2008)

OK..question...does the loose stools smell Really bad? Also what color are they?

Ken in MO


----------



## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

Hi Ken, thank you for your question... Her stools do not smell really bad. Believe it or not I have smelled! Only us goat people would understand!! Also it is a dark green color. Doesn't the bad smelling diarrhea mean coccidia? I read once somewhere about different colors of stool and smell and what they can mean. But hers is not bad smelling and it is dark green and pudding textured. 

Sondra & Ali, I did go to the health food store at lunch and got some Slippery Elm Bark. Do you just give the capsules by mouth? How do you dose? I'll also try to look up on 101. I went by Co-Op too and got the Probios brand gel for bovine and a "High Potency Vit B Complex" but I'm with Sondra on the SubQ instead of IM. I think it hurts them less. :-( I also picked up the Sustain III Calf Bolus. Those things are as big as my thumb!! No way can I get them down her without her choking and dying that way! I will have to crush (I hope) and give as a drench which I am hoping is ok (the vet said it was) but this says it is a "sustained release calf bolus 72 hours" I'm only hoping that by crushing and drenching I'm not going to overdose. Lets see... OH and yes Sondra I think that she probably needs her grain taken away too. She didn't eat this morning at milking time anyways. Here is what I feed... alfalfa hay, my own grain mix of (Feed Oats, BOSS, Barley & Calf Manna) in order of amount of ingredients used. She gets about 1 to 1.5 quart morning and evening on the milk stand but doesn't always finish. Any red flags there? Everyone else gets the same feed and does really well but she gets more than the others because she is milking. OK back to work for now..

Thank you all who have read and replied!

Arden


----------



## ali923 (Aug 8, 2008)

Just give the 2 capsules down the throat. Stick them down there and hold her head up until she swallows. You can also take the capsules apart and mix the powder in water and give as a drench but i think sticking capsules down the throat is easier. But first see if she will eat them out of your hand, some of mine have done that before, seems like they know they need it.
allison


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

cut out some of the calf mana on her it may be more protien than she needs


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Shoot I would take a deep breath and start over!

None of what you have done has done anything for this doe.

Oral terremyacin can't be dosed in the water with enough strength to work on the shipping fever/pasteurella, what your does went down with at the show, and passed to the goats at your farm once home. It also destroys rumen bacteria using oral meds.

The nuflor wasn't dosed correctly, there is no antibiotic given to goats that you use every other day.

You stopped the sulfa way to early so her symptoms came right back.

Scourhalt, spectinomycin is for ecoli, and even then it is only for kids at the dosages on the bottle, and a pump for every 10 pounds you can see quickly it isn't going to do anything for a large animal. We don't use it for ecoli really either 

Once ruminanting using antibiotics like this orally is mostly for profilactic use, antibiotics should go systemic.

We have all the dosages in goatkeeping 101 for all antibiotics.

Using an oral sulfa like the vet wanted would be fine but using the nuflor correctly would have made that a moot point.

I would worm her, just because there are no eggs on fecal does not mean there aren't mama worms sucking her blood with the stress of showing, and now being ill this long. What do her mucous membranes of her eyes look like...we have an anemia chart in goatkeeping101 under famacha.

I would put her on Corid...6cc per 25 pounds for 5 days orally.

I would put her on banamine 1cc per 100 pounds to calm her gut, give it a chance to heal and to slow down and to stop the inflammation. Do this for 6 days.

The slippery elm is fine and probiotics are fine, I would also steal a cud and give her cud juice everyday for awhile also. I would add baking soda to it also.

Now after 12 hours on the banamine what is her temp, if over 102 or a herdmates temp than I would put her back on nuflor (I would use naxcel) or any 200mg tetracycline and give this to her. Every day, not skipping days.

I would also redo my bo-se, use b vitamins and don't think about breeding until they are 100%.

Then innoculate your does for Pasteurella, this will go a long way in not ever getting this again. Vicki

Did you change their diet going to nationals? more grain or different hay than they are used to, to get them into shape?? Acidosis could be the first cause of all of this, an acidic rumen stresses the system, lowers immunity.
You didn't use the nuflor correctly,


----------



## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

Vicki, >>>None of what you have done has done anything for this doe.<<<< 

You are so right with the above statement and I'm so frustrated!! Thank you for the info. I'm going to have to read it again to try and take it all in. I just crushed and made a drench out of 2 Sustain III Calf Bolus (sulfamethazine) and have gotten the Vit B as prescribed by vet.

I have a question.. can I mix 1.2 cc of Banamine with the 5 cc of Vit B for a single injection? I really don't like sticking them more than I have to! 

As to her eyelid color they are nice and pink. They do have baking soda out and I see her licking at it. She probably got a bit more than usual grain and she had already been getting alfalfa at home but this alfalfa was from a different grower. My gut instinct tells me that she has acidosis. (but what do I know!) That is why I have also been giving her 2 tums per feeding. I'm not sure how to test for acidosis or tell if that is what she has or .. how to treat. I just know I want her better. :/

Thank you very much
Arden


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> can I mix 1.2 cc of Banamine with the 5 cc of Vit B for a single injection


NO. Banamine reacts to many drugs and needs to be given alone.
Kaye


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Never mix drugs.

I also think you have acidosis, milk fever and acidosis are culprits anytime you are trying to have a doe peak for a big show, you can't make changes in the diet quickly especialy protein changes (new alfalfa hay) or carbs (more grain).

In getting out my goat medicine to tell you to subq treat with calcium gluconate, note that they said If the goat has 2 to (preferably 4 weeks to adapt to gradually increasing quaitites of grain in many cases indigestion can be avoided......

Up to a liter of rumen cud daily, by swiping cud from a healthy goat, slurrying it in the blender and tubing her, adding baking soda to it, that will help.

Your antiacid is perfect but 2 tums isn't going to cut it, filling the rumen would take the whole bottle of malox given twice a day.

Mostly it's hoping no long term damage was done to the rumen and no grain period, only hay. If she is not drinking of course you have to hydrate her, but you do not want to give ringers unless you have to for dehydration only...something about the ringers and acidosis don't mix...Kaye will know.

Although you have to treat all the stress related things that have now happened....pnemonia, worms etc...they are secondary to getting her rumen into working order.

Make sure you look in goatkeeping 101 for your dosage of bvitamins...she is not making B1 in a rumen that is not working, so you want to give enough B1 every 6 hours. Vicki


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> something about the ringers and acidosis don't mix


Short course...LRS in some cases can cause a rise of acidosis in the system. Normasol-R is a balanced fluid that is used in cases of acidosis.
Kaye


----------



## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

Update... Gave Elsa Sustain3 (sulfamethazine) bolus last night along with 2 cap. slippery elm bark, 5cc VitB & 5 G Probios & 1.2 cc Banamine and several Tums. Temp was 104.7 No Grain.

This morning Elsa is depressed, urine is dark, small amounts of blood in stool. Temp 104.7, slight cough. Gave 10G probios & 2 tums (all she would take). I'm going to call the vet this morning when she opens and see if she can come out and give her some IV fluids (hopefully she has Normasol-R). I feel like if I can't get her turned around in the right direction today she will die this weekend.

Thanks for all your help!
Arden


----------



## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

She is depressed from the fever. Keep using the banamine. You can also cut the dose in 1/2 and give every 12 hours. Urine is probably dark from the Vitamin B. Bloody stool is from really unhappy intestines. Have you tried skin tenting to test for dehydration? Have you seen her drinking?


----------



## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

Hi Beth,

I did do the skin pinch test for dehydration and the skin popped back like normal. I took her some warm water this morning and she drank a little bit. I went ahead and put her in a pen by herself with hay, water and baking soda because I was watching her this morning and the dry yearling is picking on her while she is feeling bad. She is eating hay and was picking at some grass. Got to work... I'm going to be late. Going to call vet at 8:00

A


----------



## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Personally, I wouldn't be jumping to IV fluids yet on this doe. Can you do SQ fluids at all? Since her skin has normal turgidity, what makes you think she is dehydrated?


----------



## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

mill-valley said:


> Personally, I wouldn't be jumping to IV fluids yet on this doe. Can you do SQ fluids at all? Since her skin has normal turgidity, what makes you think she is dehydrated?


It is mostly the dark color of her urine that made me think she's not drinking enough fluids. She did drink a bit (maybe 8 -12 oz.) of warm water for me this morning but it's really hard to tell whether or not she's drinking from the shared water. I'm just kindof getting panicky and I know that it seems like they always go downhill on a Friday night when you can't find a vet to help.

Arden


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

get the vet to give you some lactated ringers to have on hand that you can use SQ 
agree the dark urine is probably the B Vit's cut out the tums and keep up the probios.
Is she ruminating?? Keep up the banamine and I would also use it twice a day with half doses I also would keep her isolated with her own water and hay


----------



## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

Question... The vet says she can see the doe if I bring her in this afternoon, but can't make a farm call today. I went home at lunch and Elsa drank about 40 oz of warm water & ate a small  branch off a tree that I brought to her. I got her on the stand and cleaned her backside (very messy!) and temp was 103.0. But she still has watery diarrhea. I am still VERY concerned.

What I am wondering is the stress of the 30 min trip to the vet worth the stress on her? I don't know what to do. ... I hate that in these critical situations with my goats I don't know what is the RIGHT thing to do. :sigh

Arden


----------



## Guest (Aug 15, 2008)

Arden,

Has the doe lost a good amount of weight with the last few weeks?

Ken in MO


----------



## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

Hi Ken,

Not a whole lot but a some. She was already on the pudgy side. But she doesn't look gutted, if that's what you mean.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Biggy is in ruminants by the time you see dehydration as in the tenting of the skin test, it's way to late.

Does she have any rumen sounds? Is she cudding? That and the dehydration is what will kill her, not a trip to the vet. GO!!! Make sure you state you think she has acidosis, so he doen'st go IVing here with ringers. Take a healthy goat with you for him to harvest rumen liquid from he can tube this for you and you can watch him tube and learn. Also have him fecal her poop. And check her for anemia. Also for a twisted gut. Vicki


----------



## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

Update on Elsa,

Took off work early to take Elsa to vet yesterday afternoon. When I got home to take her she was laying there chewing her cud. GOOD SIGN! We went ahead and loaded her up and took her to see vet lady. She listened to her gut and said it sounded good. Took a fecal & blood work and we waited outside for the results. Fecal came back clean, again. She said she did see the blood spots but it was undigested blood which was good (??) On her blood work everything but liver (liver enzymes??) came back normal. The liver levels are supposed to be in the 100's but Elsa is in the 1800's. She said she suspected a liver abscess or infection which very well could have been caused by acidosis at some point. She did not think that she was still acidodic though (??) So the plan is to treat the liver with excenel and to continue with the Probios, Banamine as needed. Also sent me home with some electrolytes (as needed). Also 1cc Thiamin until she gets back on track. Oh, also I'm still giving her 2 slippery elm bark capsules/ day. She is on 2nd day of no grain. She seems to feel some better, her stools have firmed up a bit, but still like cow patty. The vet stated that she may keep the cow patty poop for a long time or it may never totally clear up. I certainly hope not. I want to see goat berries again.

Thanks to all of you for your comments. I only hope I haven't worn out my welcome so early in my membership.

Arden

PS: Also got a urine sample while we were outside waiting for test results. It was still kindof dark. She tested that as well and said levels were fine just concentrated and to try to get her to drink more water. We go back next week to recheck blood work. (Cha-Ching)


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I was just curious what happened with your doe? Is she okay now?

Tracy


----------



## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

Hi Tracy,

Thanks for asking about Elsa. Yes, she is back to normal. Her poop is goat berries. (It's crazy how I watch goat poop! :crazy ) She is back to her normal milk production, which I was hoping to dry her up soon but she's quite the persistent milker.

Since this last episode I have cut back by about 30% on the grain that I am feeding everyone. My girls were too chubby anyway. They are now eating me out of house & home on alfalfa hay though!

Arden


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

oh that is just great!!


----------



## Haglerfarm (Aug 11, 2008)

That is great Arden? So glad to hear it.!!!
Les


----------

