# Toxic Mastitis in CL+ Doe & Trying to Save Remaining Doeling



## hollycow (Jan 29, 2012)

I bought two bred does four months ago from what I thought was a trusted source: Cara, a Togg, and Gertie, a Saanen. I am admittedly a newbie here so please be kind as I am doing the best that I can under difficult circumstances. The does were wormed, apparently, before they were bred and vaccinated yearly. I already had a dry Saanen, Mama, and added the two new does to my barnyard mix with the intention of providing milk for my family. 

As some background: I am moving 9 miles to a new property and when I got the does, I had thought that I would be in the new house by October 1. That came and went and because I am in Canada, I needed to get the goats into better housing than where they were (in a pasture with a three-sided shelter) so I moved them to the new property and into the new small barn we had built. Unfortunately the renovations to the new (old) house were derailed by major setbacks so we are only moving there in one month from now. I travel the 9 miles up and down the road a few times a day to tend to the animals.

Back to Gertie: By now settled into her new pen (10 ft. x 12 ft. concrete covered with bedding), Gertie began to lose more weight than gain any towards the end of her alleged gestation so I was convinced that the breeding had not taken. By the time of her due date, January 1, she was terribly thin. She did end up kidding two doelings on January 10, much to my surprise. I do not have anyone around who raises goats so I did what I could which was call out the livestock vet to look at Gertie. She saw Gertie and the babies and said that they were small (abt 5 lbs each) and that Gertie had a body condition of 2/5. She took stool samples from Gertie and gave everyone a shot of Selon-E. The results came back as a high parasite load of roundworms and coccidia. 

Another vet came out about a week later to dehorn the kids and he administered the dewormer to Gertie as well as vaccines to all the adult does. At the same time as we were vaccinating Gertie's herdmate, Cara, I noticed an abscess on her cheek (yes, the usual spot) and asked the vet to look at it. He said that it could be symptomatic of CAE (??) and he opened it (yes, I know) and allowed the exudate to go all over and took some to be cultured. Of course then when I read about CL and realized that is what it was, I had a fit and called one of the owners of the vet clinic and he "reassured" me that CL is "no big deal" in a hobby herd and the only reason there was fear-mongering on the forums online is because it affects the milk production of a major dairy operation. I was told to do nothing for the abscess, which did culture out staph aureus and corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis and that the body would reabsorb the abscess. There are NO other livestock vets in this area. I know that this information is false but I cannot risk losing these vets.

Late last week (Thursday), I noticed that Gertie's left teat was chapped to the point where there was a scab on it. I knew that I had to milk her out so I was very careful to use disinfected, dry hands to open the hole at the end of the teat, put disinfectant on the teat, then milk out. I dipped the teat again then put on Bag Balm to help. The doelings were nursing on the other side but in hindsight I guess they were fighting for it. I had the idea that I would use the milk on Friday so disinfected a bottle and some nipples and milked out. The milk was a bit off, apparently, though not as much as you might suspect and to my shame, I forced the doelings to drink some of it. The one who drank the most was dead in the pen the next day. I milked out and squirted some milk directly into the surviving doeling's mouth then felt that everything was off. I took Gertie's temp which was 105. Her udder was swollen. I called the vet. 

The original vet came out and she diagnosed Gertie as watery toxic mastitis due to e-coli. I asked where the e-coli came from and she said in it is in the environment but that Gertie had reduced resistance. I clean the bedding out completely every day. Because of the diagnosis, the vet was surprised that the milk was not worse but then after that, every time I milked out, it was greenish and watery and foul-smelling. The vet immediately gave Gertie a shot of pain meds and anti-inflammatories and then both the baby and the mother got oxytetracycline. The vet gave them both a 50 percent chance of living. I was told to keep the baby with the mother. 

I have been giving IM shots to both since as both have survived thus far. I have also added electrolytes to Gertie's water and I try to give her a yogurt drink with probiotics for her rumen once a day. I was told to keep milking out that bad side of Gertie's udder but there was less and less milk and the udder was getting very hard despite the massaging I was doing. 

By yesterday, the scab at the bottom was SO bad and thick that I simply could not bear peeling it off to milk her out every time so I called and the second (CL-spreading vet) was around and I had to talk to him (after he gave me a VERY hard time about calling his boss and telling me not to believe everything I read on the internet). He said that I could stop milking out the bad side and that the udder was permanently destroyed on that side. I didn't care as I am mostly worried about Gertie. I mentioned that I had been supplementally feeding the doeling with first pasteurized cow's milk from the store (homogenized) with some Ensure Plus Calories (as per the Fiasco Farm webpage) and then 2% goat's milk from the grocery store and he seemed surprised but did not argue with me. 

After I spoke to the vet, I went back into the pen and then closely inspected the good teat and of course not only was it scratched right up from the aggressive (probably hungry) doeling, but the bottom was scabbed over too. I peeled back and checked and the milk was still white but I suspect that there has not been enough milk in that one for a while as it seemed poorly producing from day one and the udder and teat were starting to look a touch puffy. I agonized and agonized and last night finally decided to pull the kid and bring her home. Normally, I would leave her in the barn and go in and feed many times a day/night but I am 9 miles away. Did I do the right thing? I figure Gertie will dry off eventually on the good side and she is on the oxy-tetracycline anyway. Her body condition suggests that she really cannot lactate anymore and although sudden drying off is not good, probably, in this case, it may save her life. As for what her underlying condition may be, the vet who came out for the mastitis said to get her over that hump and then we would do further testing of she survived. She suggested Johne's even though she was aware of the CL+ abscess. 

So now I have a baby doeling in my living room. She has been getting the goat milk/Ensure combo. I give her a little bit a few times a day. Maybe I should be giving more in three separate feedings. She is hard to feed as she shears the black rubber soda top nipples to shreds every time she feeds and it is getting expensive.

Can someone please give me some clear direction on what to do? I am somewhat discouraged.

Thank you.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

For a bottle baby, I would be feeding plain whole milk from the grocery store. 20oz three times a day. It sounds like she is hungry.


----------



## hollycow (Jan 29, 2012)

Hi there and thanks for answering. I cannot get whole milk, only homogenized. I am not sure I could get that much into her. She is fairly small still (less than 10 lbs).


----------



## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Wow. I'm so sorry about your situation. At this point, you can pretty much count on your entire herd being CL+. You have to figure out where you want to go from that...if Gertie was my goat, I would put her down. I would not be using her milk for anything, under any circumstances. The doeling will do fine on just plain whole cow's milk from the store, but you have to consider that she is also probably infected with CL, and there is of course the possibility of CAE as well. (And it's pretty lame that your vet doesn't understand the difference.) Taking her away from her dam is definitely a good thing, but would have been even better if done immediately when she was born.

Homogenized milk from the store, unless it's 2%, 1%, or Skim, is whole milk.


----------



## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Was the milk ever cultured or did the vet just take a look at it and tell you it was e-coli causing the mastitis? There is excellent information on the different forms of mastitis online in the Merck Vet Manual at http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/110904.htm. Because you need to get the bacteria out of the udder (regardless of whether you're treating her or not), I would recommend milking this doe several times a day and remove the kids from her altogether if you haven't already done so. Especially if she has CL and/or CAE, since they can both be passed along to her kids or any other goat (or sheep) that drinks her raw milk.


----------



## hollycow (Jan 29, 2012)

I will switch her then to plain cow's milk. 3.25% is the most that I can find out here. How often do I feed?


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Since she is still small and probably fragile, I would feed her every three or four hours except at night, you can go longer at night, so you can get some sleep. The 3.25% milk they sell at the grocery store is fine. It is homogenized and pastuerized but it is great for baby goats. But Stacey is right, if the doe truly has CL, and the abscess has ruptured, it will have exposed all of your goats and contaminated your property with the disease.


----------



## hollycow (Jan 29, 2012)

The two does had come from the same herd so they were infected before I bought them. The other dry doe was likely infected by the exudate, yes, thanks to the vet. I am not sure how to deal with bringing in replacement does if there is CL around my place now.


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Wow, Lisa, so sorry you have had a very bad start (I had one, too, so I feel for you).

Her concrete new pen......is that the only place your CL+ does have been at the new place or are they out on pasture, too? If it is only the new pen, and the barn is not made of wood (metal for instance), you should be able to wash it with something (not exactly sure what, but someone on here should know) as well as the floor since it is concrete. If they have access to pasture, well, no luck there. Your property would be contaminated unless you dug up and got rid of about 6" of dirt.

Others gave you good advice on care of the doeling. No matter what happens, you should test the adults for CAE. If they are positive, your surviving doeling will be positive, also. Sorry.


----------



## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

A 10% bleach solution should kill that organism on a non-wood surface. 1 part bleach 9 parts water. We used it to wash the surfaces in our labs in doctor offices, especially if there had been a splatter of blood (or some biohazard)


Most of us were tried by fire in the beginning. Chin-up. I would dispose of those does. Sorry. Clean my whole barn and start over. I actually had to do this myself. I would dispose of any vet who doesn't know the difference between CAE and CL.

There is a vaccine now for CL if you raise a Boer herd. We don't use it in dairy herds. I did use it in my beginning Nubians because I had owned a CL pos Boer doe a few years before. I vaccinated the Boers I owned after that. I stopped using the vaccine in the next generation of Nubians. I have never seen it again. I did tell the people who bought those original does that they had been vaccinated and why. So they are gonna have a pos titer if they test. None of the following generations have had a pos. We don't vaccinate because it is not possible to tell if a goat has a pos. titer from having the disease or from being vaccinated, I assume. I have a steel barn and replaced all my feeding equipment before I got Nubians. Our barn needed a makeover anyway.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Yep, bleach is wonderful stuff. There are other products that kill just as well, but nothing is as cheap as bleach. I'm terribly sorry this had to be your first experience with goats. I'm sorry to say, but if they were mine, I'd get rid of them all, clean the place as best you can, let it rest awhile, then try again if you still want to. Better yet is if there is a different area to keep new goats in, but I'm sure that would be hard.


----------



## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

I don't get the impression the abscess was tested and found to be CL. Was it? If it was in fact CL, I would cull and clean as Linda has suggested. If not, I would blood test all your animals before going further. Continue to feed the doeling cow milk and the doe's mastitis needs to be treated. Did you have her milk cultured and what sort of bacteria is involved? E-coli us everywhere and it is curable. Normally it is a management and cleanliness issue. I had a doe with an e-coli infection on one side of her mammary because her teat end constantly brushed the inside of her leg. If you get her over this use a latex barrier teat dip on her. E-coli unlike staph, when it's gone it's gone. Staph walls itself off inside the udder to re-emerge to live another day, so to speak. Of course, if these animals are also CAE positive, you can be sure the doeling is as well. When you test for CL, also test for CAE. When you get back the results, you will have a better idea of how to go forward with these animals. So sorry you are having to go through all this, but you now have so much more knowledge than you had before you wrote your post.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

nightskyfarm said:


> I don't get the impression the abscess was tested and found to be CL. Was it?
> 
> 
> hollycow said:
> ...


Corynebacterium is the bacteria responsible for CL.


----------



## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Lisa, I am so glad to see you over here. You will get much better information than you would have at the other forum from people who have real experience.


----------



## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

Thank you Nancy. I honestly did not know that was the scientific name for that bacteria.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If this was myself, I would put the ill doe down, and butcher the rest of the herd. I would not continue caring for this kid who is very likely CL positive also. Also knowing that ecoli is going to be a problem for you on this soil, start a vaccination program (ecoli information and how you can get rid of it forever is in goatkeeping 101 on the forum) in your new clean herd, clean tested for CL, clean tested for CAE and when you buy milkers run a milksample to a lab and have them tested also...better is to pull blood and milk at their old farm, run it and then purchase the goats if they are clean. You have no idea how many goats harbor staph mastitis at their clean homes.

Also vaccinate your new goats with Lysigin for staph aureous.

Although I have maintained a CL positive doe in a group of milkers, it is a huge hassel, and your goats are going to carry heavy winter coats, you will miss an abscess here and there and continue the problem forever in your herd. I would never do it again, but she lived with forever quarantined positive does back in the early 90's that I had to milk.

But getting rid of the goats today, you can clean, soap and water the cement, then bleach it. Scrape down all the dirt around the pens and let your freezing winter have at it, and buy some clean stock in the spring. I would first threaten and then blast the previous owners all over the internet until they paid me my money back 

Let us help you find clean stock, you do not want to start out like this! Cut your losses now. Vicki


----------



## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

:yeahthat

By the way. Glad you are here. :welcome


----------



## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Tough as it would be I agree completely with Vicki. Start fresh with clean, tested animals. Sacrifice short term heartache for success in the long term.


----------



## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

I agree with Vicki also. And do not beat yourself up. It's hard to educate yourself when a vet is giving you ridiculous info. Most everyone has started out with CAE or CL+ stock. Unless they were members here before purchasing any. Get rid of the goats, especially the one who is already so ill. Get things cleaned up and start over. You've lost a little bit of time and money, but it's not the end of the world, just sad  

Welcome to the forum! The people here will sure help you get things lined out.


----------



## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

smithurmonds said:


> Tough as it would be I agree completely with Vicki. Start fresh with clean, tested animals. Sacrifice short term heartache for success in the long term.


I confess to having wanted to write what Vicki wrote. Next time, I'll just put on my big girl panties and do it. :/


----------



## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

"dispose of" is another word for....kill them....around here. Just not as harsh sounding. These animals will do nothing but continue the cycle of the disease that all goat owners hate to have. Boer goats are worth less (worthless) if they have it. I would not want to eat one that has it. :ick Dairy goats are worth nothing IMO if they have it. We want to eradicate this from the goat population everywhere.

I am sorry that you have lost valuable time and money. Most of us have. 

Don't mistake me though. We are glad you are here. This is an excellent site to learn a LOT about goats and be sucessful with it, if it is at all possible where you are. :biggrin Be sure to read the articles in the Dairy Goats 101 section. If anything is too technical to understand (once in a while it is) Just ask because there are good people on here who can break it down for you. Goat people here are nice and will help you, cheer you on, and just hang-out online with you (lots of us are on Facebook) You are most welcome here! CL is NOT welcome here. (and I would not really kill the vet, just threaten to and send bad karma vibes his way :biggrin)


----------



## hollycow (Jan 29, 2012)

Thank you for all the good advice. I am grateful to Nicki for steering me here. 

I have to admit that right now, culling does not seem right to me, especially with one doe due to freshen. I know I am not being rational. Heck I am the one with the 27 year old horse I saved last month from the glue factory. 

I had a wether years ago with CAE and I am pretty sure I am not dealing with that now; although, I know I need to do a blood test to determine that. The vet told me not to worry about CL because all major herds have it and that I can even drink the milk as long as I pasteurize, which is what I was going to do anyway. We do not have access to the Glanvac-6 vaccine that is out there because it was pulled here in Canada. 

So far the doe is still alive and I am caring for the doeling by giving her cow's milk from the grocery store. She likes it.


----------



## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

All major herds have it??? Eeeeyyyyyaaaahhhhhhh :tearhair

Well hon. No matter what you decide, stick around. It's a good place.  Some of us have forced our vets to go get continuing education credits in Caprine Medicine. :sigh


----------



## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

The thing with CL and CAE is that the animal literally wastes away. There is no way for you to know what is going on internally. She could be completely covered in CL abscesses on the inside. She could even have them inside her udder. Pasteurize if you want, but.......

If she does not improve, if you can't get her to thrive, put her out of her misery. Also, remember that CL is zoonotic.


----------



## hollycow (Jan 29, 2012)

She is fighting this mastitis so hard. She is really tough and really skinny at the same time. It is this dichotomy which is challenging. I am drying her off and will have the vet draw some blood. If she does not gain some weight soon, then I will euthanize her. I rescue animals and have made the decision many times and am not afraid to but I am being a wimp about this goat. That said, I will not let her go on like this if nothing else can be done. And believe me, I am trying to get this man to 'fess up to selling me sick does :mad


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Few does get abcess in their udder, and it would be the only way a CL abcess could infect milk to make you have to pasteurise it. What this does is simply makes you one more of the herds with zoonic diseased goats...chickens, you, your cat, your dog, walking through the pens of CL goats, carries this disease to your other stock, all warm blooded mammals, even your neighbors. I would rather have all CAE positive animals than have 1 that has CL if I had to keep them. It quite literally means it is unethical for you to ever sell a kid, just like who you bought them from.

The problem with communicable disease is that it weakens the immune system so mastitis, pnemonia, virus, etc...will be common problems in your herd.

Your vet certainly doesn't know anything about goats to have an opinion about all the herds in Canada!

What a horrible welcome to goats and to the forum! Sorry it has to be like this so often. Vicki


----------



## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

I have to say that, now that I know that you are a rescue operation I applaud your willingness to aid suffering animals. That is admirable. However, these animals are shedding bacteria that can sicken other animals, not just other goats. It will defeat your purpose in trying to help the rest of your rescued animals. I know it is hard and sad. You don't want this germ on your place, really. I am very sorry and sympathize with your agony over it. Let them go peacefully, burry them deep or burn the carcases. Place large, heavy stones over the burial spot so that predators cannot dig them up. Your heart is in the right place but you must protect the rest of your rescues. I am with Vicki. I'd rather keep a CAE positive animal. The very first goats my husband brought home from a sale barn to our farm had an old nubian doe with a nice appearing udder. She was maybe 3 or 4 years old and she was thin. She had CAE. We did not even know what CAE was then. This was 13 years ago. She was in end stage CAE. She had a buckling right after she got here (she was so thin I didn't know she was pregnant. Her knees were so swolen and the CAE had hardened her udder. She made no milk or colostrum. I tied down a Boer doe and made her give me colostrum and then started him on milk replacer. I have since learned to hate milk replacer. It causes scouring. I lived and learned. The doe kept loosing condition until she was fairly feeble. She did get up and eat and drink, but she never gained condition. A bag of bones. We put her down because she was slowly starving. It is cruel to let an animal starve. If you want to rescue animals (You aren't hoping to be a commercial dairy or show herd or sell kids are you? You simply cannot sell CL kids or milk.) This is unethical as Vicki has said. Please, for the sake of your other rescues, be merciful. It is not curable. If you are solely a rescue and not a showing herd, or selling kids, vaccinate for CL, if they put one out again. CAE can be managed by being present at every kidding, pulling ever kiy kid from it's mother. Don't even allow her to lick the kids. Separate them from the herd in their own area. Milk the colostrum from the doe, heat treat it (not pasteurize, the higher heat will turn colostrum into pudding.) Give the kids the heat treated colostrum. Then milk the does and pasteurize it. Feed that back to the kids by bottle or lamb bar. If you follow this protocol, you will eventually have goats who will be CAE free. Kids from those does can be sold.  Testing on the generations on CAE prevention program will proove that your protocol worked and you can work yourself into a CAE-free herd. You can't do that with CL on your place. 

Hon, those CAE animals are going to get sick and need to be put down while they still would be nice, productive animals at that age if they were well. There comes a time to not let them keep going down and starving, or put down . If you want you can rescue CAe goats. Just watch their health and when they have reached a point where they are loosing weight and doeing poorly, it is time to let them go too. If you want to protect the rest of your rescues you need to let them go peacefully and work on a CAE prevention program. And if you aspire to be a dairy, or sell quality kids, it won't happen if this continues on. It can't happen if there is CL on your place.


----------



## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Is CL transmissible in utero? Would it be possible for her to pull the kid from the doe who is close to freshening without risking infection? 

Still, with CAE+ status you need to be there to pull kids before they're able to nurse like Linda said, which means before they hit the ground. It sounds like that could be a challenge with your new farm several miles away from your home.


----------



## hollycow (Jan 29, 2012)

So CL is worse than CAE in a way? I think I will have the vet out to cull Gertie at least and have her do an on-farm post-mortem to look for internal lesions. I was not going to sell any kids or the milk. This is all being done for hobby and, yes, I would have even kept any bucklings and had them wethered. I know that CL is zoonotic but from what I read, the incidence of cross-species transmission is rare and even humans who regularly handle CL+ goats do not become infected.

I am so mad that this happened at all.

http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/PDF/FSA-3095.pdf


----------



## hollycow (Jan 29, 2012)

I also do not want to rescue goats in the future per se if they have CAE or CL. I really just want healthy goats for some milk.


----------



## hollycow (Jan 29, 2012)

I know that this is a meat-goat site but what do you all think of the information on the following site:

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/cae,clandjohne's.html
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/caseouslymphaden.html
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/formalin06.html

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/caseouslymphaden.html


----------



## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Welcome Lisa! I am so glad you came to the forum. Many people have had to treat animals their first time around, as it has been said, because of being new. We had to deal with CAE and had to cull them, good animals and healthy...just waiting for the CAE to kick in. We were ever so lucky NOT to have to deal with CL. I also would cull the doe, not just because of money (which I am sure you know adds up quickly) but also because it sounds like your doe is in alot of misery  It is impairitive as livestock owners to know when is enough for the animals sake as well as the rest of the herd. 

If this was me, I would check out the remaining doeling as well as any animal housed on the property and coming up positive for CL or CAE would be culled also. I would be out looking for healthy herds. There are some in Canada. I would hold your vets responsible for their inept veterinary skills. Why you did not get some kind of Mastitis teratment is beyond me  If the doe is truely mastitic she has to have it treated from inside the udder along with systemic antibiotics. I would be printing out all I could (you are allowed to print off of DGI 101 as well as excellent sources in the reference library) that would help educate these vets. I know you need these vets but they have got to realize, hopefully sooner than later, that eradicating first comes by educating. Taking the norm "all the herds have it", and changing it to "We are working on helping herds not have it" would be much better. I understand they are busy but darn it our animals deserve the best diagnosis and care availible out there no matter where you live. 
"Goat Medicine" is an exceptional book that I think your vets really need to get for their reference library!
I am truely sorry you have had to deal with this mess. It is heartbreaking to hear this story...just like any of them that comes along. I am hoping that this does not discourage you in rearing and loving these amazing creatures. But once you have clean animals and start using the wonderful information that educates you you will find it much easier. The load is heavy now, emotionally and physically we know  Take a deep breath and let it out. It can get better. 

Tam


----------



## NorthOf49 (Feb 8, 2011)

Lisa, I am very sorry you're going through this! I know it's hard to want to help a sick animal and have to make the decisions presented here. I am with the majority that you should cull. I also had CL a year ago, just one doe, she had a long history and I liked her and I couldnt bring myself to put her down. Then we got another, very nice doe, who was a rescue. We nursed her back to health over a year (she was in bad shape). We rescued her and then we infected her with CL because I didn't have the strength to put down the original doe and we didn't have the room to properly quarantine. When I had to drain the abscess on that poor goat I realized that it would have been better had I allowed her to simply go to auction and be slaughtered than to 'rescue' and then hurt her again. We culled both and it was very hard but I believe that death is part of life and in order to properly respect and recognize the sacrifice those animals give to us by giving us meat and milk we owe it to them to face the reality and be there for them in the end.

As far as the links you posted above, I've read a lot of CL stuff on the internet. I believe the only way to deal with CL is to cull. When I was still trying to deal with it, my choice of treatment was to drain the abscess and use penicillin to flush the wound as I was recommended by a vet hospital here.

All vets in Canada are NOT like yours!!! When I chose to go CL free I called my vet and asked her to come out for CL testing and her first response was yes, we need to get rid of that. She is a young vet but she's been absolutely excellent!! We must remember that vets are people too and that in the big picture they DO know way more than we do, and that some things they don't know. With CL testing remember that the blood test only detects animals with active abscesses so it's very easy to get a false negative!

I do use the Case-Bac vaccine which I can get in Canada though I know it's not approved for goats. Some people say it works, some people say it doesn't. I've had CL on my property so I'll be vaccinating for a few years yet until I'm certain my herd is clean.

Read 'Why Do We Fail With Dairy Goats' in GK 101: http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=13899.0 I find it helps me get my priorities straight. Because we want to do what's right, and sometimes what hurts shortterm is the right thing longterm and we owe it to the goats to try to see that and do it when necessary.

Anyways. Welcome!! Glad to see another Canadian here.


----------



## hollycow (Jan 29, 2012)

I have decided to cull Gertie who is thin and likely has CL but the one who cultured positive on the abscess is Gertie's herd-mate Cara who is due to freshen in less than 4 weeks. She is very robust-looking. This brings me to the question ... can the kids be saved? Also can Gertie's doeling, the one I am feeding and who is staying in my living room, be saved as well? Is she definitely infected? Can the kids be "carriers" but never develop the disease or is it possible that they just aren't infected? Would a blood test even help for the doeling or does she need to be actively diseased for the test to be positive? 

Thanks for all the support. I am deeply in love with goats. Truly the wether I had owned in the past was one of the best "dogs" I ever had: loyal, always happy to see me, didn't jump up, was happy with hay and pasture and a good scratch near his ears.


----------



## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

You need to be there when Cara kids. Try to find some colostrum from a clean doe or Johnnes free cow to feed the kids. If you can't find a source of clean colostrum, find a colostrum replacer containing antibodies to feed the kids. Pull the kids immediately. Do not allow the doe to lick them. You should be able to salvage the kids. As for the doeling that you already have, since she was living in the pen with exposed/positive animals, I'd raise her to butcher as a kid and don't allow her contact with Cara's kids. I've seen twin doelings out of a friend's CL positive non symptomatic doe remain CL free until they died of old age. The positive doe went into the freezer the day she kiddded. CL is one disease I refuse to work with at my farm. I think it's far worse than CAE because it's way more contageous and also zoonotic. With CAE, you can raise kids on prevention and the disease does not get into the barns and ground. Of course, one does not want either disease.


----------



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

Sure sorry for the situation you are dealing with. I really agree that a case of tough love with these goats is probably the best thing to preserve the health of your property and any animals living there now or in the future. Also your neighbors and friends that go to your place and might spread it to theirs.

That is exactly how we ended up with pigeon fever in our horses several years ago. (dryland distemper) Maybe you already know all about it? As cattle ranchers we neighbor help. We and all our neighbors, some near and some far get together for brandings and fall cattle work and such to help eachother get the work done. Instead of paying eachother we just swap help and add a meal in. Anyways, we take our working horses onto other people's places during these times. Following one such time we ended up with a horse with pigeon fever, which then swept through several horses that were in the same pasture. Thankfully these horses were not even bordering the rest of our horses that are in the pasture at our house. (they are in a different pasture several miles from our house). We were able to keep the situation contained to those horses and haven't had any problems since that outbreak in 2002. But we were very careful. But it did ruin one of our good horses that we had to get rid of. This is not something that you want to have on your property. For the sake of your other livestock and for the sake of anybody who ever sets foot on your place.

"This bacterial infection is caused by Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis and characterized by deep intramuscular (and sometimes internal) abscesses in horses. It has also been called pigeon breast, dryland distemper, and Colorado strangles. "

http://quarterhorsenews.com/index.php/news/other-news/8847-what-is-pigeon-fever-in-horses.html

When we started back into goats several years back we had a similar bad start. We ended up with a CAE goat and a staph A mastitis goat. We also had gotten a few others that were with these goats. We made the decision to put some down and take the rest straight to the sale. We loved the goats and it was hard. But it saved us a forever headache and heartache with what would have been to come.


----------



## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Has the doe that kidded been tested for CAE? If her udder is hard, as you say, it may very well be CAE as well as, or in addition to, the mastitis...plus the CL. You could keep her kid and decide that you do not want to breed goats, or ever visit anyone who has goats of any kind as you will be a carrier for the CL. I am in disbelief at the very bad, extrememly horrible...(and that is putting it mildly), information the vet gave you. I love my goats, but if one ever came down with CL, euthanasion would be the ONLY option! 

In my opinion, (and it is only an opinion) it is irresponsible to "cull" a goat with CL or CAE via the option of an auction. There is no dollar worth the misery an already sick goat will have to endure going through an auction, and what about those people who pick up animals that are exposed to the CL animal? I cannot fathom the mindset of people who will take a contagious animal to the market and deliberately spread the very disease they are trying to get rid of! 

I'm so sorry you had to go through this. It sucks that you had to have such a bad beginning. I know many people have gone through this and whatever you decide, I wish you luck!


----------



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Like most here, I started with CAE+ animals and worked our way to a CAE- herd. I am now starting over again with CAE+ animals (I lost my - herd to a fire). I don't mind the work it involves because I feel my + animals are worth working with.

However, CL I would never work with. I have never had a CL animal, and I plan to keep it that way. It's just too scary.

I'm sorry those people sold you these animals and now you have to pick up the pieces.


----------



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

Anita Martin said:


> In my opinion, (and it is only an opinion) it is irresponsible to "cull" a goat with CL or CAE via the option of an auction. There is no dollar worth the misery an already sick goat will have to endure going through an auction, and what about those people who pick up animals that are exposed to the CL animal? I cannot fathom the mindset of people who will take a contagious animal to the market and deliberately spread the very disease they are trying to get rid of!


Not sure if you were referring to me or not, but you can rest assured that I agree with you and that is why we shot several of our goats. Those that we took to the auction tested NEG for CAE. They had been in with some of the others though, and it just stressed me too much worrying over it, so we took them. They were bought goats and I didn't know anything about them, but they were negative on paper, so I don't think that it was irresponsible of me to sell them. They were healthy and looked good and had neg. test results. We have never dealt with CL so they weren't exposed to that. I too do not think it responsible to pass on problems and to my knowledge I haven't. But it is also the responsibility of the buyer to buy healthy goats (to the best of their knowledge). Would you ever go to the sale and expect to come away with a healthy goat that wasn't exposed to CL or CAE or positive for both; I don't think most people would, though many people are tempted to take the risk. The biggest reason for the sale in my mind is butcher. And that was the reason we took our 4 goats there. Haven't ever been back and don't plan to be. Anyhow... there are different circumstances.


----------



## hollycow (Jan 29, 2012)

I had even asked if there was CL and CAE in the herd and told not to their knowledge which I took at face value at the time. I know far better now but this man was a friend of a friend, as they say, and I believed the "friend" who was the middle person. Conveniently, she has changed her email address and I am desperately trying to get in touch with her.

I agree with being conscientious. I would never pass on a problem to someone else. I would not even so much as visit someone who even had one dairy goat without telling them I needed to walk through a bleach bath first. Fortunately, I do not know a single person with goats right now. 

I am wondering if anyone knows how CL is actually transmitted to kids or how kids become exposed, such as Gertie's kid who has never been near the Cl abscess in Cara.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If you are there for the birth, and it would be so much better to just get the doe who is due to kid out of that pen...but to think you are going to walk over to the new property and not find the kids simply licked off and nursed. If you have a single due date and the vet will give you 2cc of lutelyse than you could give her this drug which will have her kidding in 36 hours.

It's part of the new person syndrome though. Not just that their first stock is diseased, but the idea that they will be able to be there when a doe kids. If we took a poll you would find that most on here never saw a doe at their farm kid, sometimes not for a season or to. They start baby watch so early that by the time they have given up and sleep through the night, they run out to the barn after the first good nites sleep in weeks to find everything over. But if you can take her to your home when she is uddered up and ready to go, watch her like a hawk, use a baby monitor at night so you can hear her...and get those kids away from her...yes, they will be CL and CAE negative. But 1cc of colostrum from a positive doe and your kids are positive...any contact with the exude of CL and any broken skin, like umbilical cords, feet, nose, mouth, and the kid has the disease which migrates to their lymph glands. All subsequent abscess with corybacterium is on the lymph glands and nodes. 

Feed the kid only heat treated colostrum and pasteurised milk from her dam....or use powdered colostrum replacer (not supplement) and put her at 24 hours onto grocery store milk. Vicki


----------

