# Getting goats to pay for themselves



## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

Well, I just sent off a deposit on my first buck. So it seems I'm really in the goat keeping game now. I'm looking over costs and trying to figure out how to pay for this experiment turned obsession. My goal is to get the herd to pay for themselves. 

Can all you seasoned professionals share some of things you've learned along the way about management that have helped keep costs down and milk up? I'm also interested in where your break even line seems to be as far as goats in herd/gallons of milk sold/kids sold-etc. I realize that there are tons of variables here but your ideas help spur mine. Any and all thoughts are much appreciated!


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## kattmc3 (Mar 8, 2009)

I am not a seasoned professional but I can tell you that you have a very tall task ahead of yourself. I will be watching your post to see what others have to say. Good luck. It will be neat to see how others do it.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Years ago, when I was thinking about breeding Persian cats, both the books and breeders advised to consider it a hobby rather than a living considering the investment involved. When I decided to do goats nine years ago, I went into it with that attitude. I do, however have a goal of making the goats support themselves. I buy my feed at different places so I can get the best deal. One place has cheaper whole oats, another has cheaper lactation pellets. My hay dealer has the best price on alfalfa pellets. I've learned to diagnose and treat things in my goats so I don't have to run to the vet all the time. Still, my goats aren't completely paying for themselves. First of all, I don't live in a good area for selling goats at top prices. I just talked to a lady wanting a milker for $75-$100. We also have strict milk laws here, so I can't sell my milk and cheese openly at the farmer's market. The other thing I need to do is find someone with the time to build me a website. I also live with someone who considers old, non productive does part of the family. I'm going to need to stand up to him and insist that either he allow me to sell her, butcher her, or at least pay for her upkeep.
The best way to get goats to pay for themselves is to set up a business plan and goals for your herd. Kathie


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

The biggest thing is culling and advertising. If people know who you are and that you have quality, healthy stock, you will not have a problem selling. But for those newer to the game, especially if you don't show (myself included) it takes a while to get your name out. You cannot afford to keep every doe kid until she's a 2nd freshener before selling. You can't afford to hold onto every buck kid until fall in hopes that he'll sell for a breeding buck. 

I don't think I've quite turned a profit yet, but my goats do pay their feed bill.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

My goats paying for themselves isn't a business plan. A plan is to breed goats that will fill my business niche. A plan is to provide (milk, meat, cheese, soap etc...) that will fill my business niche. Your goals and products will be different.

Like any small business you have to spend money, all profit for at least 3 years should go right back into the business...and the purchase of one buck is not the end of it. It's why any business goes under, not enough capital is spent in the right places and when you do start selling milk/cheese/goats, the money isn't put right back into the business.

You are dealing with a lesser breed, you have mass marketing not done in your breed. In full sized Nubians, alot of marketing has already been done for me...like milk and cheese in the Houston area, your pretty much guranteed to succeed because so many have come before you. But mini breeds are new. 1 out of 100 people even know they exsist who visit here looking for goats, they don't know they even want them, or why they would want them, so your problems start there. I don't believe you have a breed club either, add to it that your registries are not national registires.....one is ran by one gal and everything is owned by her, not a company, she could go home with her ball anytime she wants to. The other is perhaps a little better, with no continuity between the two registries. No shows to speak of, no appraisal. Your breed is also a very big step away from breed recognition, mostly because the breed doesn't conform to breed standards that anyone would recognize, unlike miniature LaManchas. So going to ADGA or AGS with a purebred herdbood for legitimate registration, is a very long way off. And you need the selling of registered breeding stock as one of the cogs on your farm...in most cases you want the sale of your breeding stock to pay most of the care of the doe. The sale of a kid/s should pay the feed bill of the doe, otherwise her quality is likely lacking. Why dealing with goats whose kids are only selling for a hundred dollars is a big bite of your profit to try to overcome.

Your milksales will also be less than large breeds, you will be milking more goats for the same amount of milk, meaning more labor (trimming feet etc), more square footage used, although not as much grain.

Making your milk into value added products (cheese, soap etc) is of course the most bang for your buck, which can be done with even unregistered stock.

Find out your milk regs, find out your health department regs for your state and your best way to do this to have an inspector out, don't go by internet info...because even locally what one dairy is expected to do, is not what another one is, all because one dairy inspector is more strict than another.

If your serious about dairying, consider doing it like I did. I milked crosses of LaMancha's and all replacement kids I raised were out of a LaMancha buck (best for our weather here) and then on the side, although they went through the milkstring, my daughters Nubians were raised in another stall, then adding purebred LaMancha's they were also raised in another stall. The backbone of the dairy was the mixes who were not kept in show shape, saved us a ton of money.

Before you breed, what are you going to do with the nearly 50% bucklings you will have born. They will drink saleable colostrum, saleable milk and it doesn't take but about 3 or 4 days before they are costing you more than they will ever make you in sales. no matter how much you are picking up this buck for, expect his sons to sell for much much less because you don't have the name the breeder does. Think perhaps along the line of using your mini-nubians as a pleasurable side line while you milk dairy goats.

Test, keep your herd tested for CAE, CL...never keep or buy one more goat that doesn't bring you toward your real goals. Advertise, not having a website now, kills you, nearly makes folks think that you have something to hide. Now to keep mine updated  

Listen to everyone and then apply what works for you and your goals. It's a whole lot more work than you will ever believe. Vicki


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

Well. My goats are self sufficient since I starting making and selling goat milk lotion and soap. BUT I work for them. I am not even sure they appreciate me. Whine Whine. Anyway - they did good last year. My herd queen has her own fan club and they have their own bank account. 

I do not sell animals so all of their income comes from goat milk products. And they are expanding for next year. Hope they don't expect me to do all of this alone.


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

A profitable business isn't my goal here. I'm not delusional enough to think I have the time or energy (much less the experience and knowledge) at this point in my life to run a full fledged dairy. My hope is just to minimize expenses and capitalize on any potential income. 

Vicki-I here you about the mini's. I chose them initially because I wanted animals I could handle on my own and the Nigerians didn't appeal to me. I heard too many tales of wrestling tiny teats for 1 cup of milk a day. The mini nubians seemed like they'd be easier to sell kids from because they're cute and small but can still produce. But since I got them I have wondered many times if it might have been better to go with a couple full sized girls. But I honestly don't know if I can sell the kids.
The market for goats around here is a bit different I think than where you're at. As far as I can tell there are mostly people who keep them for fun, not milk. There also seem to be quite a few who want them to throw in the backyard to eat they're bushes but haven't thought much beyond that (not who I want to sell to). Then there are the small number of people on the self sufficiency kick who want enough milk for their families. Many of these folks are on small acreage or in the city (many cities around here allow mini goats now) This is probably the main market for my goats. There are some 4-Hers but not as many as there used to be. Most kids around here have parents who work for Microsoft and are more interested in video games than where their milk comes from...
And the buck kids...I just don't know. Originally I thought I would raise them for meat, but that doesn't seem financially viable from what you're saying...what do you do with them?

Realistically, I need to make money from selling kids and from selling milk & cheese to friends and family (of whom I have plenty of willing buyers). So I guess the question is should I reconsider the breed I'm keeping and if so, what breed should I go to?

Adillenal- The soap and lotions really make that much, huh? I was looking around on the internet and it seems like so many people are doing this already...I was thinking it looked like a pretty tapped market. Guess it depends on how good your marketing is.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2009)

Hi Beverly
Diversify, don't put all your kittens in one basket and try to come up with more than just one product.. Selling livestock, making soap or lotions, cheeses, fresh vegetables etc.. fiber, 
Marketing is huge part of selling anything, with livestock you must have a clean and healthy herd and be reputable and honest as a breeder.. that means replacing a kid once in while when one gets sick and dies right after it leaves your farm.. etc. No you don't always know how they treated that baby goat and if it dies from stress or from something they did..But word of mouth in the goat world goes a long ways. Be honest with a customer about a goats faults or anything else they should know.. I just sold a doe that freshened with mastitis, but the new owner knew this. Of course I did not sell her until all treatment was completed and she was tested again. I won't sell an animal that i think is sick.. not even with ringworm.. until it is taken care of. Learn to cull and cull hard.. 
Making soap or cheese, learn to make your product the best it can be.. don't skimp on making a shoddy product and expect customers to come back to you. and the market for soap is wide open and huge... this is a product that is used every day so people always need more.. Know what and how your product does for your customers.. why is it better than commerical? etc. Marketing marketing marketing.. Get your name out there in the best way possible. I don't even have a web site and there are days I cannot seem to keep up with my soaps and lotions. Christmas of course is my busy season and I work long hard hours.. I work long hard hrs alot, even when I am sick. It does pay off.. My herd pays for itself and I make a little profit from time to time. I feed my does from sales of goat kids, sold 18 doe babies this year and that will pay for the feed and meds. the soaps and lotions take care of extras, but to be honest it was a couple of yrs before I made any profit at all.
Most soapers don't stay in business long, they give up and close up.. I personally know of three of them near me that did not last one year.. Lots of hrs and hard work.. 
Good luck with any and all of your endeavors.. It can be done, but you won't be rich, but my goats have given me much joy. Livin the good live, with goats, good cheese, good farm food, nice soaps here in Michigan.
Barbara


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

Beverly,

I do a monthly market and a bunch of fall shows. So far I am the ONLY goat milk soap and lotion maker at any of these. I have one other soapmaker at the monthly market and she does not make any with goat milk. I sell online to people that have bought from me that don't live around here. That side of the business is slowly growing. 

I wanted to buy a semen tank so I could AI but the girls would not fund it so they bought a new buck instead. I will have to buy the semen tank out of my pocket. 

I give my bucks away when they are 6-8 weeks old. My secretary's husband butchers and barbeques them so I know they won't end up anywhere else. SOmetimes I get cooked meat if there is any left. Makes him happy and when we went on vacation they looked after my animals for me. Kind of a barter system I guess.

I did not think I would end up with a profitable business from my soap making hobby but it evolved from giving away soap to anyone that would stand still long enough.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

We never went into goats to make money. We wanted good clean milk and someone to eat the jungle!

One thing to be very careful of- don't try to husband more animals than your land will support. If you are buying every single mouthful they consume there is a lot more work and craft involved in breaking even.
We are fortunate to live on a large parcel of land that needed goats to groom it and so we have less expense to begin with. We seed winter rye so we don't use much hay and they always have green stuff which lets the rumen stay primed for that type of digestion and not changed over to dry matter. Really good hay is expensive and the seed is a better investment and they are outside pooping not leaving all where you have to clean it up! They are only in the barn when it is inclement outside.

We have a limited market for goats as well and I have had to go to Nubians because they are 'cute'.
We wether all but exceptional or reserved bucks - very few each year- and they go in the dog freezer after being used as cleanup crew where the milking gals cannot go.

Milk and cheese sales pay for all grain and hay and meds but it is serious work and you have to deal with quirky public! This means all goat sales are profit but don't tell ....
What you need is a copy of Making Money with Goats with V on the back cover!
Ellie Winslow used to post on here but not recently.
http://beyondthesidewalk.com/make_money_goats.shtml

Lee


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

Lee- I'm definitely weary about keeping to many goats. I've set my absolute limit at 6 does and 2 bucks. Right now I have 4 total. My problem isn't lack of vegetation (I have about 5 acres of completely overgrown land) but I haven't been able to figure out how to fence effectively. 
Our land is a wooded hillside and I don't have unlimited funds to work with so there's been a lot of moving fencing and getting creative about placement. Haven't had any luck with electric fences. My mini's can squeeze under the slightest gap and the brush is so dense and quick growing it shorts out the fence daily if I put it any closer to the ground. :sigh This is the catch 22 that makes me crazy-spending a ton on feed and then not being able to afford the fencing so that I don't have to spend so much on feed.

Barbara- Yup diversifying and marketing, I agree are key to getting the small homestead to generate some money. And a whole heck of a lot of hard work...and more hard work... and more...At least its fun work and never a dull moment, huh? 

Thanks everyone for all this good food for thought...


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

We too had fencing issues for decades. The old fencerows were 30 feet wide with saplings and rose bushes and berry vines with miles of rusty barbed wire on bois 'd arc embedded in this mass of vegetation . With more than 2 miles of this to clean up and re-fence it has been an ongoing process and we still have 12 acres of browse to get finished. It is worth it to put in permanent fencing as you can. 
The freedom to let them roam and choose what they want to eat as well as not stand around re-inoculating themselves with parasites is just too nice and does cut costs and you can deduct all the fencing costs if you file farm forms when paying taxes. We have finally been able to spend the time to cross fence and get grazing areas that can be used in rotation. It was a very long time coming but well worth the effort. 
Best luck with continuing your creation of your own personal goatie heaven!
Lee


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

Beverly,
I live in the Pacific NW as well. My goal was milk for us and to have the girls pay for their feed/meds etc.
Have only been goating for 3 years and this year the girls have already paid their way. (Not counting the
barn addition that "I" wanted ) I have 4 breeding age does and 2 bucks.
I originally started with Alpines, but wanted something smaller. I like the Nigerians, but as you mentioned,
not the small teats. So, being optimistic for a newbie, I decided to raise Mini-Alpines. That is a whole 'nother can of worms, but I digress.
The breeder I originally purchased my Alpines from thought I was nuts for wanting to raise Miniatures. But
I spoke to her a couple of weeks ago and she has decided to start raising Miniatures as well! Seems that she
has had a lot of requests for smaller sized milk goats.... Hmmmm, maybe this newbie wasn't so far off the mark. 
I haven't had lots of kids so far, but have not had any problem selling them yet. I have sold 3 sets of twin wethers to people for pets/weed control. All of the new owners have kept in touch and I know how they are doing at their new homes. For me, that is important. I haven't quite got it through my head that they are livestock. I have had lots of requests for the "smaller" milk goats as well. People love the mini-Nubians because of their ears.
I know the cattle panels are not cheap, but if you invest in some, they are easily moved by one person (Me, which is why I use them) and you can move your area relatively easily. I have not had any trouble with anyone escaping (except kids) from them.
You just need to figure out what your goal(s) are for you and go that direction. If you already have people lined up for milk/cheese you are further ahead than I was.


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

Michele- Yeah, those mini's. People really seem to like them and how could they not being so darn cute. Off topic a bit, but I'm curious how much milk do your mini alpines produce? 
The livestock panels have been my saving grace. They cost a pretty penny but they've been more useful to me than anything else.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well I have to say I am a hobby farmer and feed my goats daily have no browse at all. But my milk and soap sales to for the most part pay for the feed. So tho I make no money for big extras I do break even for the most part. I used elec fence for years and it is a pitb keeping the mini's in but will work for the most part. I now have no climb horse fence over most of the area. Cattle panel in some sm pens


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your comments. Its so encouraging to hear about all your experiences. I'm feeling re-inspired! I ordered the book you suggested, Lee and I'm working on writing out a herd plan.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Want to add that I couldn't pay for feed with out my one LaMancha and 3 Nubians the mini's for the most part won't purduce enough milk. (except for one that I kept)


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

Beverly,
I am sorry I don't know how much Mini Alpines produce. Being a very
optimistic (or foolish) newbie, I started the hard way. Bought full size
Alpine does and Nigerian bucks. Wanted to breed my own, rather than
buying some "ready made". So, thus far, I only have one actual
Miniature Alpine and she won't be bred until this fall. 
I can tell you that she is smaller, but not by a huge amount. She is
around 110 lbs. and about 3 inches shorter at the withers than my
full size girls. She is a 1st generation and I am really looking forward
to seeing what she produces.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

For a web site that's easy to build go to freewebs.com. Its free and very easy to do yourself. I was waiting for years for my computer geek son to build my site, he kept telling me how hard it was. I finally got sick of waiting and messed around with freewebs building a site for my dogs. It came out looking fairly decent with minimal effort and know how!


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Hi Beverly. It will take some time before the goats start paying for themselves, but if you have milkers, think about the reduction in your grocery bill when calculating what they 'make'. Sale of kids is my biggest income from the goats as in WI it is illegal to sell raw milk and I won't pasteurize it. I don't think I can sell cheese either. I might be able to with a license. I haven't looked into that.

I would not be discouraged about the MiniNubians. It takes some time to build up a reputation, but I have way more requests for kids than I can possibly fill. I usually have to refer people who contact me later in the year to other breeders. MiniNubians are very popular and there are a lot of people looking for GOOD quality, healthy goats. Having a website with GOOD pictures (get them clipped and set up well) makes all the difference in the world. After word of mouth, the website gets me the most sales. Get your information with your website onto every breeders listing you can find (both MDGA and TMGR if possible). Since you are in the NW, there are more goat shows up there than many other parts of the country, so you're lucky in that way. Another way to get recognition is the virtual show that MDGA puts on. That would be a good incentive to get good pictures of your goats that you can use on the website to. Join groups like this and get involved. Yahoo groups are another way to get known. People like to buy from people they 'know'. Even if they've just heard you talk on the web. Pictures on your website, pictures, good pictures, that is one of the biggest things I can stress for people who want to sell their goats. Then of course you have to get people to the website, but I already listed some of the ways to do that. Ellie's book is excellent and will help you with marketing your goats as well.

For the first several years, you will be putting money in, but don't get discouraged. They can and do pay for themselves within a few years. I am sure that you will do well with your goats. Work up to the fencing as you can (I LOVE stock paneling too!). Another good fence is the Premier1 ElectroNet fencing. Just got some for the bucks and it's been good so far. I just have to move it 1x per week since those boys eat so fast! I guess I should add another one...

Oh, for websites, I started out with tripod.com. It was free and pretty easy for me to learn (I started with it as a 12 year old!). I now use FrontPage to design my site which I really like as it is pretty easy to make changes. I use FatCow.com for webhosting and I LOVE them so far. There is a link on my homepage that will let you get 25% off if you want to go with them. They've been great. I have thought about building websites for people. Not sure on a fee but would be willing to talk with you about it if you wanted.

Good luck with your herd and I know you will do well!


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## CrookedCottage (May 6, 2009)

Thanks Eliya. I just got Ellie's book and I'm about half way through. Love it. So clearly written, I wish I had found it a year ago! 
I'm working on content for a website right now, thanks for the recommendations. I'm trying to get my knowledge and ducks in a row so that by late winter I have my website up and going. 
I am going to stick with the mini's. I'm picking up an Echo Hills buck next weekend :biggrin. I think in the spring I'm going to look at getting a couple of full size girls to breed to my mini buck next year. That way I have a few girls on the milkstring who are a bit more productive but still have my mini girls and lots of mini kids to sell. What can I say, I'm always trying to have my cake and eat it too!


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

That sounds like a great plan. Dannette has awesome goats. I have had three bucks from her who have made a huge impact on my herd. My best milker is also from Echo Hill's.


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## olivehill (Aug 19, 2009)

I hope it's okay to just jump in here. I'm new -- I met Vicki via another forum and she invited me. I'm not a current goat owner, but hope to start my herd in 2010 and have been researching/planning for the past year or so. That said, while I can't speak from the goat side of things I'm no stranger to making a small/hobby farm a business and have extensive website, content writing and marketing experience. 

I really, really cannot express at all how important it is to not only play around in designing your website but please, please READ about web standards of good design. You may love how pumpkin orange writing looks on a magenta background but you're about 1 in 100,000,000 who do. There are color combos that work and color combos that don't. MUCH has been written -- and much of which you can obtain for free online even -- about the reasons for this and it DOES make a difference. As a potential buyer I cannot even begin to tell you how many farm sites I have clicked into and right back out of in less than 5 seconds because it did not look professional. There will be people who don't care, but on a grand scale it does matter. Spend the time to learn it, or hire someone who knows it. Remember, this is a business! You should represent it as such no matter what. Those dancing .gif animations you find for free for use in forums like these are cute, I'll give you that. But as a general rule of thumb they don't belong on your business site. Your myspace that only friends/relatives can see? Fine. But not your business. 

When it comes to web content use spell check! Have someone with knowledge of good grammar look over what you have written. And if at all possible have it copy edited by someone with knowledge of WEB WRITING, not just regular writing. There is a difference. Sentences need to be very concise, as do paragraphs. You do not want any one page to require a reader to scroll, scroll, scroll. They will lose interest. If you have something that needs that much documenting think of how you might be able to split it up, compartmentalize it. Don't be wordy!

Logos, taglines, graphics: Shoot for simplicity! And professionalism. You can often get logos and graphics designed quite inexpensively. Check around. 

Platform. Decide what you want to accomplish with your website ahead of time and choose an appropriate platform to build it on. Two I recommend highly: Wordpress (self-hosted) and Squarespace. 

Utilize social media marketing; Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. BLOG about what's happening at your farm -- (note: this is where choosing the right platform from day one comes into play full force). Join groups in the above communities that are relative to your business. Network with people who share your interests. But please do NOT shamelessly self promote. Be sincere, personable, and kind. You will gain many more customers and fans that way. Even people who are not immediate consumers can refer others who are later. Self promotion in these mediums without other interaction will only get you a bad reputation. 

Use word of mouth. Don't limit your networking to online. Get out in your community and network. Are you not set-up to sell at farmer's markets? Fine. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't go and mingle. Buy yourself a bag of tomatoes, a few homemade jams and just get out there and get to know people in your area and community. Know your market audience and where they "hang out". Get to know the crowds they are connected with and they'll get to know you. 

Be honest! It goes along with word of mouth. Sometimes drastic times call for drastic measures. This year I lost more than half my meat poultry flock. I ended up with JUST enough birds to cover the deposits I received on my pre-orders. We're eating vegetarian this year as a result. Sometimes sacrifice on your part is worthwhile if it means pleasing the consumer. Next year those same customers will be back here when, if all goes well, I will have more than enough chickens to butcher. I can miss out on chicken for a year or so if it means not losing my reputation with the people that make my business what it is. 

I could go on all day, but what it all boils down to is plain and simple: good business. Ever wonder why so many independent consultants for those marketing schemes like Mary Kay and Avon fail? Recruiters fail to emphasize the importance of business sense. It's not just lipstick, ladies. It's not just goats. It's business.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Diana, GREAT points!!! You mentioned several of my pet peeves about websites there. That and having the only pictures of the goats knee deep in grass with their head down. It doesn't show the goat to advantage (rather the opposite) and gives the impression that you are not serious about your goats. Pictures, GOOD pictures, are essential in selling goats online. Cute pictures are great, but those should be in addition to good conformational shots and bagged up, shaved, udder shots. Not many serious people will buy kids (especially a buckling!!!) with out being able to SEE what the dam and granddams (and their udders) look like. Telling me she has a great udder doesn't prove it. We need to see the proof. Most of your buyers aren't going to be close enough that they can drive out to see if they are interested, you'll need to let them visit your goats from afar.


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## olivehill (Aug 19, 2009)

Absolutely, great point Eliya! Make sure your confo shots are covered before you try to sell the cuteness factor. Always! 

And I, as a personal preference, like to see it taken a step further and have the websites with a completely different section for the cutesy stuff. If I like your animals, I'll hang around to read your blog, look at your picture album, etc. If I don't like them? Well the cute pictures wouldn't have changed my mind about that anyway.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

I know what you mean. I think a cute picture along with a few professional ones on the home page (like I have on my site) will help keep more interest. Some people are only there for milk, breeding etc, but a lot of my buyers (especially in the MiniNubian market) are also looking for family pets. I want my site to convey the personality of my goats as well as the other good points. I do have most of my 'cute' pictures in my photo album page rather than on the main pages. I have mine set up with a main doe page with side pictures of each doe with short pedigree, a little info and two other pictures (usually udder or relatives). Then if people want more information on that animal, they can click her name to get more info (pictures of kids, conformation from all sides, show results, milk testing info, extended pedigree etc I'll also include a few cute pictures that show personality on this 'personal page'). It seems to work pretty well this way for me. People can get a general overview of my herd without being bogged down with details, but can also get all those details with out having to contact me to ask.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Glad you found us Diana! Now quit talking about my website  The nicest website around can't sell goats without being updated  Nice for ADGA goats, is that we have apparisal scores to 'see' the udder. Vicki


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

We aren't trying to point fingers, Vicki, just giving pointed tips.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

ADGA scores are great, but I still feel better when I can see it with my eyes instead of my brain. LOL Guess I'm one of those visual learners


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Eliya and Diana....very good points. It drives me nuts to follow links off breed websites...and find something 5 yrs old, misspelled, poor grammer. I would rather buy from someone with NO website than one like that.

Pictures can be misleading....which is why an LA score is so nice. So many times a nicely shaved and set up goat looks really good to me...but when I compare scores with my own animals I realize she wouldn't be much of an improvement .


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

That is very true about pictures. Same with show wins. They really don't mean much unless you know who they were competing against. I have seen animals go GCH who I would not want to own.


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## grandmajo (May 22, 2008)

I think that I've read this thread about 3 times now, and the suggestions are just awesome! I want to thank everyone for all their input, it really helps the new folks like me. I'm not at the point that the goats are paying for themselves. But with this being my 2nd year with the goats and my first year selling milk thru herdshares, they are earning me enough to recoup about 75% of their feed costs.

I would like to share some personal experience. I created my website using Microsoft Live Small Business, and have found that to have some really good tools. There is a section called "Reports", which allows be to see how many visitors I've had, along with what pages they have visited in the order of most visited to least visited. It also lets me see how people are reaching my website (direct link, what search engines, other sights I've advertised on, etc), along with what search words are used that get people there too. To me, this has been really helpful, as I can tell if a site that I advertise on is driving in the traffic that I need. I guess in my own little goofy mind, I need to see those things to see if my website is helping my business or not.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Jonell, those traffic reports are very important and a great help. They let you know what you are doing right and what is wrong with your website. That was one of the things I was very happy to get with the FatCow hosting - I could see what searches people did to get to my site, what search engine they used etc. I can also see how people got to my website - i.e. where they came from so I know what ad or listing they followed to get to it. Many people ignore this part of a website, but it can be really helpful!


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## olivehill (Aug 19, 2009)

For those who are using hosting that doesn't offer built in traffic tracking (or those that want more or different features) Statcounter.com and sitemeter.com are two services that can be used for free or for a fee and track your traffic for you.


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