# Possible mastitis, possible uterine infection, temp 107 after 3 days of tx



## mustrum (Mar 4, 2010)

Please, if someone can help us we'd really appreciate it!! It's too involved to do much more than bullet point the highlights, but if someone will pm me their number I'll call and then lose the number forever, I promise

2 year old doe, 2nd kidding, triplets last year and this year

got pneumonia 2 weeks before kidding, 5 days of Excenel cleared her up

kidded 6 days ago

Had to turn the second of three, had to go in twice, but I was gloved and used surgical scrub and betadyne and she cleaned out well, no discharge, only normal lochia

first sign of anything wrong was a hard congested right udder 2nd day after kidding, with a knot which i think is a lymph node over the top rear of right udder

temp 107, but still drinking, nibbling hay and alfalfa pellets, couple mouthfuls of grain each time we milk her out, gets up and moves, almost acts normal

gave Today and massaged and compresses to udder, no help

Banamine brings temp down to 104 for 6 hours or so then is back

called vet, she came and examined, also thinks is Mastitis, started on Nuflor along with Today. Also said Banamine daily for three days to bring down temp even though she knew that was building up in system

Today is second day of Nuflor, 3rd day of Today TWICE DAILY, warm compresses, temp is now 106.3 had banamine today for 2nd day in a row

she was a heavy milker, gave almost a gallon PER MILKING last year as a first freshener, now a half pint to a quart total depending on how long between milkings

Left udder is soft, but it isn't producing very much either.

We are at a loss, don't know what in the world we are dealing with

No lesions, ulcers, cysts, boils or discoloration of the udder, it isnt even really red...the WHOLE right side is hard, almost like congestion

No cough, no congestion, no runny nose, nothing else out of the ordinary. Herd mate (her twin) is fine, and giving almost a gallon ler milking

Yes, we are leaving the kids on them, milking only in the morning, using milk frozen from last year to supplement kids feedings

PS almost forgot, CMT is only "trace" since milk expressed is only a bit slimey. NO pus or blood or clumps/ clots

PLEASE help if you have any ideas, and I will call if anyone is willing to PM me and provide more details

Joel


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Some questions.

Is she currently CAE tested negative?
Did your vet take a milk sample before she told you to put Today in the udder?
There is NO way to know what you are fighting or what will work without a milk culture. Guessing it is mastitis and what will kill it is what destroys udders. Nuflor is a respiratory specific antibiotic developed for use in calves which succumb to dairy industry practices and not what you need here. Instances of it proving helpful in mastitis are happenstance but since she just came off of pneumonia not a bad idea to prevent secondary infection with the temp that high...if it is.

What is your feed regime to support that much production? Are you pumping mystery protein? This can cause udder issues independent of infection. 

It is too late to get a culture now to target the organism causing the infection if there is one and if you feel there is one via the elevated temp I would get out the big guns and ask your vet for gentimycin and use it intramammary by squirting part of the Today tube out and syringing 2cc of the gent into the tube and then putting it in both sides of the mammary via the teat. Use a new tube for each side. Use an injection needle to draw up the gent and then use the needle to put it back into the tube. Do this 3 days in a row. No more. 
I would also give 5cc of gent daily for 5 days SQ. No more. 

Try a couple of different thermometers first. And take herdmate temps to see how much off of norm your readings are. 
I have never seen a goat at 107 not on death's door and certainly not eating. They normally start seizures in that range so maybe things are not as bad as it seems from that temp reading because it is incorrect.
Hopefully Vicki will come on later and help you more.
Lee


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## mustrum (Mar 4, 2010)

Lee, Thanks so much for the response. I feel better just knowing someone is looking at this. I will try to answer your questions and points in order. Kinda running from the house to the Barn.

She was tested (along with her twin who is her herdmate) as a doeling on my insistance, and was negative. We have never had goats before these, and there have been no goats on this property for 30 years, our barn and pasture was new when we moved them in.

No, no culture was done. But the vet and I talked about that. Said we would run one later if this didn't work. I guess figuring that if the organism that was causing the problem was STILL causing a problem, then regardless of the antibiotics used it would still grow out since it was resistant.

I knew that about Nuflor, but the vet recommended it because the spectrum of activity was wider than excenel

It isn't our regime, it's the goats themselves. Their sister on another farm is producing exactly like them, and does from previous breedings are doing the same thing. Unreal, I know, but that pairing is almost legendary. As far as what we are feeding, mixed grass hay, alfalfa pellets free choice, and a specially mixed feed from Edward's feeds in Lebanon, TN...18% protein, all grain with soy pellets that have their mineral mixed in prior to production...free choice mineral and baking soda...nothing special. And their sister and previous does are all fed differently and are still doing the same as far as production.

Herdmates temp is 102.5. always check against each other. Temp was same when the vet was here, so I don't think it was the thermometer. will try again tonight and see.

Vet was surprised at the high temp and her essentially normal activity level too...I don't know what to say...

I don't know anything about gentamycin in goats...but i can get it no problem...will the gent cause sloughing or any other problems?

Thanks so much again Lee...I cant tell you how much we appreciate the advice...


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Well there is nothing to thank me for at all.
Good rundown thanks on the details. You did an excellent presentation of the case.
I really am stunned at the temp- that is great that you checked others.
Wonderful you have a vet that will work with you.

I would call Vicki for additional ideas. She has seen it all !

281-592-3039

It doesn't sound like uterine infection with the good clean out but I would be worried with immune suppression she will revert to pneumonia. Make sure she is drinking at least a gallon more than she is making in milk and perhaps get lactated ringers on hand in case she stops drinking. Sorry to not have a majic wand that reaches to TN. 

There are some cases of mycoplasma causing both pneumonia and mastitis with the particular symptom of the supernumerary lymph nodes being enlarged. Maybe run that by your vet. I have only read of it not experienced it.

Hoping for the best.
L


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## mustrum (Mar 4, 2010)

Just got back from the barn again, checked temp with second thermometer. 106.3. Not knowing what else to do, I redrew blood and will send to bio=tracking in the AM. Will also call the vet and get gentamycin. Lee, Thanks so much!! I will run the mycoplasma thing by the vet too...any idea what is used to treat it?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

How is your doe today, Joel?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Hands down more does die from being treated with Nuflor than any other antibiotic, be it the wrong dosage, not often enough, it would be a great case study against what dosages and strengths that do work by those using it with success. Considering Naxcel/Excennel are both gram negative and positive so why your vet would not choose that is odd, since it covers both things you are guessing about, and nearly all mastitis sensitivity tests include some form of cepharin as the drug of choice. 

Infusing before taking a milk sample, even if you just put it into the freezer to go back to if you guess wrong isn't wise, and neither is thinking that any infusion on it's own is going to clear anything in a goat with her super fast metabolisims. Hands down using a vet and guessing means you may save her life, but you certainly won't save the udder.

Will the vet give you naxcel? Will the vet give you gentemycin? Call me if he will. Also stop the whole idea that banamine can't be used for more than 3 days....on our own 6 days is fine, but I have given ill does vet perscribed off label use of it for much longer than that. Don't take a small blurb about a drug and then run with it without lots of science behind it or at least breeders you admire telling you to be careful.

Pulling blood right now is futile, ill and on antibiotics it will scew up the numbers of elisa testing from any lab, giving you a borderline or high negative and none of this is caused by CAE anyway. 

She needs subq fluids, and while the vet was there why on earth didn't he set you up with an IV for her, anyone sick like this with that high of fever would have been given an IV as soon as they got to the hospital...futher, take some Nuflor and call me in the morning....the vet could also have tried and IV of antibiotics and a good rehydration for her.

Obviously the nuflor is not working 24 hours after the 1st injection if you do not see improvement you guessed wrong. If you have naxcel than give it to her... 1cc per 50 pounds twice a day for 3 days, then 1cc per 50 pounds once a day for 5 days. I would give her the banamine twice day before milking, simply half the dose....even if she has no milk to milk out still massage the udder, milk out the carrier oil from the previous infusion and using the naxcel as your infusions works well also....

The mass is likely walled off so you need to really massage it well, you WANT to see exude/pus/blood come out of this udder. 

It will take her off the milkstring for this lacation, but if you can get the gentamycin call me, it and any 200,000 unit pennicillin really is your best guess. Vicki


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## mustrum (Mar 4, 2010)

Lee

Sorry I haven't responded before now...was up til 1 am with the doe, then up at 5 to pull a 12 hour shift. We were able to get the Gentamycin from the vet (who impressed me only because she gave me the same directions you did on dosages...btw, I did talk with Vicki, and learned that I made an error by completely removing all of the Today rather than just enough to infuse the 3 cc per side...am going back out to do it again in a few minutes). Also going to get a penicillin to use in conjunction with the Gent.

Temp is 106.5 this evening, but she is drinking water and eating a few handfuls of grain and alfalfa pellets and hay. Nothing like she usually does, but at least some appetite.

Grinding her teeth because of discomfort, and rapid respirations because of the fever (which makes me even more inclined to give her some IV fluids because she's at risk of getting dehydrated from that as much or more than anything else). Banamine this morning at her dose, but I'm going to start giving twice daily tomorrow...

I simply can't believe that she isn't acting worse than she is with a temp like that for DAYS now...just happy she's been able to live through my screw-ups and learning curve to survive to the point that I got some real, accurate advice and can actually treat her with the right meds, We come here all the time when we have a question or are looking for ideas or answers...why i didn't do that right off the bat this time I don't know...probably the temp got me rattled enough to do something, anything NOW...

She isn't any better, but she isn't any worse, so that's something...

Just for those who are following, I had just finished a course of Excenel, which is why the vet chose not to use Naxcel (knowing what i know now that would have been the best choice...right after obtaining a sample of the milk to use or save for culture and sensitivity purposes BEFORE giving antibiotics. TODAY at twice daily infusions along with NUFLOR at 5 ml SQ (150 lb doe) for three days had no effect. I am still using Banamine for fever and discomfort, but it is only easing her for a few hours. Have just started Gentamycin 3 ml in each teat and 5 ml SQ at the same time, and will do 3 days of infusions and 5 days of injections.

I will try to stop by here daily and give updates so others can hopefully learn from this.

And again, Many, MANY thanks to Lee and to Vicki. We are really grateful for your help and advice. I seriously believe we would have continued down the wrong path and ended up killing her with the wrong antibiotics (or possibly simply bleeding to death from all the injections...)


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

In general, I've always learned that if you don't start to see some kind of improvement in 24-36 hrs with antibiotic, then that's a sign you've likely got the wrong one. There's always an exception of course, but in general.


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## mustrum (Mar 4, 2010)

Agreed, which is why I was so worried when there was no improvement after 2 days...there should have been SOMETHING


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Yeah, you're doing great, hang in there, you got a tricky case this time.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks for the update, Joel. I hope she pulls through for you. Keep us updated.


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## mustrum (Mar 4, 2010)

OK, temp this morning 104.6. That's 12 hours after starting gentamycin treatment and without giving Banamine last night. So it looks like progress. Her udder is still the same, but the temp being down gives me hope that we're headed out of this. Also she's acting more like herself...impatient and queenly...what my son calls "her hiney-ness"

Gave 1/2 dose Banamine this AM and since I am going to work, went ahead and retreated udders and gave SQ gentamycin...she's drinking well this am, and urinating ,so no more SQ fluids today, at least for now...if she doesn't drink at least a gallon of water today, more fluids tonight.

Thanks for the well-wishes!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Her discharge/lochia is normal? It doesn't smell etc? Isn't to little or too much? Vicki


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## mustrum (Mar 4, 2010)

Hi Vicki, 

Lochia is normal ( based on last years' experience and compared to our other doe). No smell, no unusual discharge, just normal lochia. I am going to keep paying attention to it for the next few days. Certainly don't want to miss a uterine infection, but that's moving lower and lower on my list of differential diagnoses.


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## Holly Govero (Mar 26, 2009)

WOW. I see a huge difference. WOW..


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yay! Fantastic- looks like you found something that works.
She should feel much better without such an elevated temp and can get back to eating more normally.
If you can get any extra zinc in her for immune boost I would do it!
Nice to hear progress.
Lee


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Lee, what zinc do you recommend? 2nd & 3rd choices if 1st isn't available?

Joel, hurray! Sounds like she's on the right track now.  Such a relief eh?


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## mustrum (Mar 4, 2010)

Hi everyone,

Looks like the improvement was short-lived. This morning temp was 106.1. There has been no change in her udder at all, and this morning was the third gent infusion. Also 3rd gent SQ. still giving Banamine. Also aqueous based penicillin sq as on jack maudlin at 5ml per 100#. Continues nibbling only and drinking OK. 

Honestly, we are at a loss. Don't know what we are dealing with here. She also seems to be having pain everywhere. Joints muscles gingerly walking, hesitant to get on and off milk stand. No swelling or heat or anything. Just seems weaker. 

Now starting to show the weight loss. She had fat she needed to lose, but now weight loss is noticeable. 

We have started discussing putting her down if we can't see any improvement of some kind by the weekend or by next weekend at the latest. 

Ideas, anyone?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Is anything coming out of the udder 12 hours after the infusions when you milk?

And it kind of is screaming mycoplasma, it comes in a mastitic form that also comes on as arthritis (very simply inflammation of the joints) and pneumonia.

I have no idea of any of the antibiotics you have tried will get mycoplasma, but Tylan does. I do not know if you want to try another antibiotic. If nothing else comes of this, it at least is a lesson for everyone on needing to culture milk before starting antibiotics. Even if we had guessed and used Naxcel and Spectromast from the beginning, with banamine and fluids, we would have gotten back the results, found the sensitivity and had a vet IV the first dosages to get it going quickly.

Sorry she is doing poorly. Vicki

If this wasn't a valuable animal, I can see guessing, although meds and out time are also valuable, but a milk test usually saves and udder, sometimes a life. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Oh yes, fluids! Vicki keeps mentioning and can do wonders for animals own healing systems. I think she makes a good case for mycoplasma.

At the least hint of udder problems, some would say micomanaging :biggrin I grab a sample tube or two and put in freezer. If it winds up being nothing, then I use those frozen tubes just clearly labeled as "do NOT test, for ice only" when I send in something I do want tested. I've never regretted the 1 minute it takes to grab a sample "just in case". There's a point of big number of goats and years of experience where maybe its not worth it, but as a default, I sure like knowing I have it at this point in my managment.


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## mustrum (Mar 4, 2010)

Thanks Vicki,

I hope it is a lesson that everyone can learn from. 

As far as the Mycoplasma, Lee has mentioned that the other night as a possibility...

No, I don't care to try another med if it has a chance of working. 

A couple of questions...first, what dose and regimen for the Tylan...

Do you think I should continue the gent for another day or so to see if it finally breaks through? This is the third day...

Is it possible that if we use the Tylan and it works, will the udder be saved? We already are going to be discarding this lactation except for soap anyway, but I'd we can get her back with a good udder for next year that would be great.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I have never had mycoplasma here....or at least diagnosed. So other than just telling you to search out cow treatments, I rarely guess how much to use or not when I haven't actually dealt with something before. Vicki


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## racyford (Sep 10, 2008)

I know nothing about mycoplasma. I am only offering what information I have available; since Mrs. Vicki recommended the Tylan and does not have a recommendation for the dosage, I looked it up in my book. I own a copy of Infovets Small Ruminant. In the book it states that it is not approved for goats; it is extra label use. That being said there is the info and doseage that the book lists:

"*Dosage and Administration:* This product should be administered at 9 mg per pound of body weight twice daily (1 mL of the 50 mg product per 5.5 pounds or 1 mL of the 200 mg product per 22 pounds). Each injection should be given intramuscularly (IM) and no more than 10 mLs should be given in one location.

*Duration of Treatment:* Do not treat for longer than 5 days.

*Precautions and Side Effects:* Do not overdose any animal. Do not mix the drug with any other product. Do not give to horses."

Store this product below 72 degrees

There is not a milk withholding time established in dairy animals; the "unofficial" witholding time is 96 hours.

There is not a meat withholding time established. The "unofficial" withholding time is 30 days for meat.

Hope this helps.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Tylosin/Tylan is OTC, odd it would be extra label. We used the Tylan 50 for years for rattles, when kids inhale amniotic fluid and are rattley. It also comes in 200mg for large animals. Might want to look in 101 and see if Joyce has it in her med lists, if someone has time. Vicki


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