# new research - copper wire particle delivery options



## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

This is edited from a goat discussion list (Goats list <[email protected]>) to which I subscribe:

Email discussion with Dr. James Miller of LSU who is a lead researcher of
the use of COWPs to control the barberpole worm. Below is the portion of
his response that pertains to the issue set up in a
question answer format:

To Dr. Miller:

My questions are as follows:

Question 1: Is it true that top-coating feed with copper wire particles is
an effective method of deliver for the copper for management of H.
contortus?

Response from Dr. Miller: Yes, but it is better for them to be mixed in
with the feed and add a small amount of liquid (water, oil, molasses) to
make sure the particles stick and do not fall out.

Question 2. If so, does the copper wire, when delivered without a bolus as
a carrier, stay within the stomach of the animal for the same length of
time as copper wire delivered via a bolus?

Response from Dr. Miller: The bolus we refer to is not really a bolus but
a gel capsule containing the copper particles. The gel capsule dissolves
and releases the particles so it makes no difference if the particles are
delivered by gel capsule or in the feed.

Question 3. Is the period of effectiveness the same?

Response from Dr. Miller: Yes.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Hmm, the problem of the goat chewing the bolus wasn't addressed?


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

If he's advocating top dressing, I'd say that chewing is not a problem.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

That's interesting. I'm not familiar with Dr. Miller. Is he a respected goat person?


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

As noted above:
Dr. James Miller of LSU who is a lead researcher of the use of COWPs to control the barberpole worm

His webpage at LSU
http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/pbs/miller.html


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## Kris (Mar 28, 2010)

Thanks for posting this Rose. Very interesting.


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

OK so make this simple for a new person >>>>>me LOL
If I understand correctly, it is alright to pour the copper wire over the feed and let the goat eat it instead of giving the goat a copper bolus. Is this correct according to Dr. James Miller?
Maybe I'm confussing two different minerals...please help!
I thought the copper bolus' were for copper deficency not the barberpole worm?!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'd have to see some proof first because it doesn't make much sense to me. When the goats get a hold of those boluses, it just sounds like they are chewed to nothing. If they are, they just won't stay in the rumen.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, if you don't believe the referenced authority, there isn't much I can do for you. 

I have, by accident, crunched down on the copper particles. They don't break apart easily. They just make noisy unpleasant sounds and feel awful between your teeth.

All I know is what I posted. It was part of an ongoing conversation on that goat discussion list.

There is ongoing research about using the copper particles for control of barberpole worm. It's the same substance that we already use for copper supplementation. See: http://attra.ncat.org/downloads/goat_barber_pole.pdf

Also:
http://www.scsrpc.org/SCSRPC/Files/Joan/COWP Use 3.pdf

This one is about sheep, and I haven't read it:
http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-0709103-153221/unrestricted/Watkins_thesis.pdf


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

This just seems to negate all the research that copper given orally to a ruminant is not effective. Makes one go "hmmmmm".


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I am thinking Jana tha the emphasis is placed more on the sulfide than the oxide rods. It would make some sense as the sulfides are smaller particles of which can easily be eliminated by the system. 
AND...just thinking outloud here...copper rods although going through the rumen still make it to the reticulum which in turn settles the rods in to the honey combing.
Tam


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Tam, thank you for explaining. Lack of chemistry knowledge always catches up with me in goat raising. Looks like my 4 years did not leave with much I retained.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I too have memory retention problems and sometimes, okay...often, have to refresh myself. 
Thanks Rose for the post. Now I have more to read
Tam


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Rose said:


> Well, if you don't believe the referenced authority, there isn't much I can do for you.


It isn't always who says it but what they base it on that matters most to me. I just want to see what he's drawing his conclusions from is all.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

If I get time this week, I'll contact LSU and see if there is a published report yet.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Rose, please ask if he worked with Joyce of saanendoah.com maybe he just means the leading authority on just the connection between HC worms and copper. And it is not copper=less worms, how simplistic....it's copper=higher immune function because the doe is no longer defficient so she is no longer nutritionally stessed. All stresses signal worms to reproduce and suck blood.

So with oral feeding of the rods, did they do xrays like they did with the gel capsule/bolusing method. Vicki


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

http://www.scsrpc.org/SCSRPC/Files/Joan/COWP Use 3.pdf

This article mentions that the soluble copper creates an environment that kills the worms.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Just thinking out loud here... From what I understand, the reason that copper bolusing works the way that it does for copper deficiency issues is that it's a time release thing and that the copper rods embedded in the goat's digestive system do their thing over the course of months rather than all the copper being absorbed immediately. So what I'm wondering is this: does it work the same way with the worms, or would a transient presence of the copper work to kill the worms and so it wouldn't matter if the rods were in the system long term as far as worm prevention goes. From reading the article Rose posted where they advocate retreating in as little as six weeks, that seems to be a possibility. And if that's the case, then we are talking apples and oranges here as far as the efficacy of dosing methods goes.


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## mrs.h (Feb 1, 2010)

So, where do you get the copper to top dress with?


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I got copasure 12.5 Gel caps from Hoeggers. They are calf boluses that you break down to goat sized boluses. Info in 101 and copper page.
So you would need to order gel caps too.

I tried top dressing the boys' meat pellets last night w/no oils. They actually did eat half of it, (I clipped them to their fence to ensure regulation and observance), The Nubian boys didn't blink about it being in there but the Alpine boys didn't really care for it. Still think the bolus itself going down is the best form of treatment. I have to get the boys a whole calf blous and half will just not cut it.
Tam


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

Caprine Beings said:


> I have to get the boys a whole calf blous and half will just not cut it.
> Tam


What are you basing this on coat issues? wondering as I have a post about coat issues and the girls were bolused with 1/2 about 4 months ago as well as my buck and wondering if I need to do it more often then 6 months or larger doese to improve on coats.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

The reason why I say half a bolus will not cut it for the boys is weight. Theoden alone weighs 245lbs. Demi is 210 and the Nub boys are 175 and 180lbs. As deficient as "our area" is in copper and Selenium I base their dosages to here. Anybody else anywhere else would have a different dosage I am sure.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

you would use the same bolus only pour the rods over thier feed. and what he says makes some sense in that your still giving it orally only that the rods don't come back up with the cud  
However for me bolusing is simple and I like to know they get the correct amount.


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

When I was researching copper for my 2007 edition of "Making Money With Goats" I fopund this info: And finally, copper aids in parasite resistance. None of the literature reviewed offered a mechanism for this, but animals with high-normal copper levels are up to 96% less infested byHaemonchus contortus, the major killer of the roundworms.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, but I still insist it isn't actually the copper, it is that we have alway had copper deffcient goat from sheep information, and although a few of us have bolused for years, it's new for most and what we have found is the benefit of a doe not have copper defficency (nutritionally stressed from defficency) is a stronger immune system all together to keep worm burdens at bay.

OK, everyone with a bolus, go put a few in your mouth and try to chew, it would break your teeth! Really want your does chewing these? I don't know why something as simple as bolusing has to be made into such a huge deal that this guy thinks topdressing is better....better for terminal animals who will be on someones dinner table perhaps, but with teeth so important to our old girls, I don't even feed whole corn! Vicki


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I will keep bolusing instead of this top-dressing business.

I want to know that every rod is actually IN the doe and not dropped on the ground along with a few bites on feed here and there, or snatched by a chicken or whatever. I want the to know the dose and know it was recieved by the doe. Bolusing is not difficult.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Feral Nature said:


> Bolusing is not difficult.


That's easy for YOU to say! :biggrin

What do you use to get it down their throat? My calf gun didn't work.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Cindy, have you tried a dog pill gun? The cheap $3 things from the pet store. You just have to be quick and get it past the bump on their tongue, way in the back, and then hold the jaw and massage the throat a little to encourage swallowing. I always give them a little treat after so they associate it with something good.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks, Pav. I'll try it.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I use the long red soft rubber thing. I use the shock and awe method. I have my bolus ready and walk calm and cool into the pen with my intended victim in mind, capture her with the first grab at the collar, (even the tamest of goats may take off running if they know you are up to something and may not be close enough to you again for a second chance for you to grab them.) strandled her with her shoulders and neck between my legs, head in front, I grab her jaw and lift it up and crammed that thing down her throat real quick. It is tough to trick some of them but I always win.


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## Kris (Mar 28, 2010)

Oh my gosh Diane!! LOL "shock and awe" That is so danged funny!


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

I agree with Diane. It works!


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

That's the same thing I do. Just casually walk up, like nothing is out of the ordinary, then wham, straddle them and in it goes. They always look at me after like, "I can't believe I fell for that one again". Then I get out the treats and all is forgiven. Goats are so great.


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

You are soooo funny. :rofl :rofl What about those of us who aren't tall enough to straddle
our goats? It is NOT easy to cram something down the throat of a 180 lb. Nubian/Saanen
doe if she does not want you to. It takes two of us (DH to hold and me to bolus) for a 
couple of my does. Every time I have done it, I think perhaps I should go to smaller goats.
:crazy The Minis are easy, but those big girls I don't know how you do it. 

So, for those less experienced, don't feel bad when they say it is "easy". The first few
times were traumatic for all involved here. I guess it is like anything else, practice makes
perfect. :biggrin


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

When we still had William (Boer/Saanen) it took at least three of us to Copper bolus him (and he required two of my boluses if I recall correctly). He had to be put in a corner made by two cattle panels. One person in front to keep him from lurching forward, one person to the side and then I would put one foot up about a foot up the cattle panel and straddle him with my other foot on the ground and bolus him. He was too tall for me to simply straddle. It was more a ride if no one was there to stop his forward movement. lol
I straddle and use a calf balling gun. I am using larger capsules than most seem to use though. The only goats that get more than one bolus are the really big guys and girls. Everyone else gets just one.
Our first year was horrible. We were using small capsules and trying to follow it with water. Dad ended up cut multiple times (we had around 40 goats to do).
Now I do it, sometimes by myself. The hardest part is simply getting some of those does caught to bolus. That and the doe with horns is tricky for me.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

See I think the minis with their low center of gravity are alot harder to do! I do my boys while Kenny hoof trims them and they are clipped to the fence, I do my does during hoof trimmig on the milkstand. Vicki


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I am 5'7" anmd have long legs. My LaManchas are not that big and I can over-power them like an Amazon woman. Oh, I can come away cut, skinned, bruised and bleeding, but I am the master.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I give mine theirs on the milk stand. I stand to the side, my left arm goes around the other side of their neck and I use my thumb to open their mouth. I then give the bolus with my right hand. Then to keep them from trying to work it back up, I keep my thumb in the mouth to keep it as open while I grab some oats and basically cram it into their mouth. They immediately forget the bolus. 

I admit it was hard for me for a LONG time. But this works well for me, I did several the other day and had two goats manage to chew.


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## cloverhillgoats (May 23, 2008)

Here's a tip I got from Vicki on here. Put peanut butter in the end of the blue calf bolus gun and then stick the gel cap in and shoot! Works great!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Rachel:

I tried that - it didn't work for me. I think my problem was I didn't get it down the throat far enough. I'm going to try the dog pill gun and see if that works better.

I appreciate the suggestions. Can't imagine my short legs straddling a goat without her taking me for a ride. :crazy


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## favablue (Apr 11, 2009)

If you use the big boluses the copper originally comes in it is a ton easier.

They do not fall out as easily and if you have to try again they do not dissolve as quick. 

We just open them up measure them out with the smaller capsules then put them back into the big boluses for the goats that are harder to do. They are just as easy to go down for the goats plus they are quicker because you will not have to reload. 

Anyways that is the way we do it.....


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I use the peanut butter to glue the capsule into the pill gun. Kind of like how my screw gun holds screws on it magnetically  so when I am getting the doe ready with my left hand, the capsule is not falling out of the pillgun that is in my right hand. Vicki


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## Fiberaddict (Jun 4, 2009)

I wrapped the capsule in a couple of mini-marshmallows, and my girls (well, the Nubians, anyway) snarfed them down and were looking for more.

The Alpine and Cashmeres, however, acted like I was trying to poison them. :lol I need to figure out how to dose them....


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## nytro (Oct 2, 2010)

RE; Copper bolus
We give two grams in gel caps once a year to all of the herd,but MC masters Ck first with worm count. then a couple of times during the year , you will see approx a 50% radix in worm count! Note: do NOT give over 4 grams per year! Per Langston UV. IT works , Lowers worm problem.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

With the largest science done on this done by a dairy goat gal, Joyce of saanendoah.com, we have most of her website on this forum, both the copper information but also her old drug site, I used her info and 1gram per 22 pounds of body weight works well for us. I do now bolus twice a year. Until you have used it awhile and then ran a liver biopsy on a doe or buck who has lived off your program, it really is all guessing. We have seen a much higher decrease in the rate of eggs on slide since Cydectin, certainly higher than 50% in fact I would say other than stratigic worming before kidding and the day of kidding this is the second year I have not wormed my adult does other than those two times......since moving away from sweet feed, from giving calicum daily and copper information...so it sort of all hit my farm at one time. Vicki


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## sherrie (Jul 22, 2008)

My nubian buck LOVES peanuts in the shell. Found the biggest shelled peanuts, opened the shell, took out one of the nuts, closed the shell, gave it to him and he never saw it coming. :lol I just gave him the peanut 'boluses' until they were done.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

But he chewed- !
I guess maybe that is the opposite of not inhaling? :rofl
To chew or not to chew- to inhale or not....
What does it all mean :/
In all seriousness- I would like to add that getting copper going in our herd made a terrific difference in so many health aspects...however you can get it down em- DO IT! And get the iron OUT!


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

cloverhillgoats said:


> Here's a tip I got from Vicki on here. Put peanut butter in the end of the blue calf bolus gun and then stick the gel cap in and shoot! Works great!


This what we do and it worked wonders.


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