# Skin torn, gash on side



## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

My dog got the latch undone and chased the goats. Grabbed hold of one and tore a gash 2 inches long and .5 inches wide in the widest part. Grabbed the other goat from behind and I see .5 long gash on either side of her vulva, looks like he nicked her vulva also, its tip is a little pink. I squirted diluted Betadine and dabbed dry and sprayed with Blue Kote. Is this the right thing to do? Is there anything else? Is there a way to desensitise the dog? He sticks his head through fence, I pop him when he does this.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I would not keep a dog that harmed my goats. :mad


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

I have to keep the dog for protection, I live alone in a rural area. He is a Belgian Malemoise and comes from a long line of sheep hearding dogs. He is a puppy and I am working with him on obedience. He is a necessity not a luxury. And anyway, the last post does not help me treat the wound just criticized me personally . Maybe someone out there has treated an open wound and can give some advice? And I wrote Blue Kote I meant Wound Kote. Thanks.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

A wound that size will heal well if just kept dry and sanitary. 
Do you have any problems with flies right now? 
Letting it dry and heal from the inside out will keep you from having to lance infection or drain pus.
When disinfecting be sure to use things that are drying as you have done.
Should you see signs of redness indicating infection you can pull up a syringe of generic antibiotics and squirt it into the wound and let dry.

Best luck with the dog- if he is a puppy you can work with him and try to get him over it. Even our Anatolians which are sposed to be natural born guardians wanted to mouth the goats until they were about 2 years old and now they don't act like they exist. Give him exposure with supervision and be consistent but also don't give up on the idea that he may not ever be right for goats. Puppies are often just looking for someone to play with butit might be that a Malinois will always see them as prey or at least something to chase since they are actually shepherds rather than guardians. The are more often used to actually herd and chase and are noted for intense prey drive. If you really like him the best idea is to make 100% sure he never gets in with the goats. They are easily trained to attack and used by many defense services so this is a good dog for you but perhaps not the goats. It will take consistent intensive training now that he has shown you he will attack and if you are not alpha over him you will never convince him not to.
Lee


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I know this is not on topic but I would like to add that physical violence with a dog of this nature is not the best training.
Perhaps invest in some books that deal with training a dog that can become perfect protector or nightmare.
We raised and trained personal protection dogs and have never hit a dog. It just isn't something they understand to mean what YOU think it means. You have to relate to them as a dog not make them relate to you as a human. 
You should grab him by the scruff of the neck and flip him over on his back or at least suspend his front legs off the ground and look him in the face and say no or whatever command you wish to use until he turns his head away and then let him up and ignore him completely. This is what a mother dog would do. Let a bit of time pass and then engineer some positive interaction where he will succeed and be rewarded but always react the same way to the negative behavior and he will quit. 
Good luck!
Lee


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

If you are going to try and train him, the dog needs to be physically kept from interacting with the goats in any manner (including through the fence) without you around to give correction. He should never, not one time, have a successful experience. Successful being any kind of fun for him. It should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS bring swift correction. I agree on the scruff of the neck. For a sensitive dog, just a grab and mild shake of the scruff may be enough. For a hard headed dog, I will grab the scruff and bring him to the ground with it. But it needs to happen before the brain gets a chance to make another happy memory from this behavior. 

Make sure and give him an outlet for his instincts with something he is allowed to do. My dog gets to catch squirrels or rabbits if she can. She can see a squirrel a mile away and stalks them. She used to want to eat the chickens. :naughty She is a very hard headed dog and I have ran and slammed her to the ground with the scruff of her neck. Just hard to get her attention. But she lives with the free range chickens 24/7 and has for years.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I did NOT criticize you AT ALL. I just said (due to a lack of other information) what I would do.

If I had full information, I would not have said that.

Also, you ASKED about what to do about the dog.... desensitize. Not having the info about his breed, etc., I said what I would do.

Sorry you didn't tell us enough and mistook my reply for criticism.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

LIKE, LIKE, LIKE on Lee's post (except alpha 'roll'--we'll have to agree to disagree  ). Malinois are VERY high maintenance. Training is the best protection for your goats. The more professional the better. The more diverse the better. Get him into basic obedience as soon as possible--now.  Check for schutzhund training in your area...these dogs EXCEL at this type of training. And contrary to popular belief, schutzhund is about CONTROL, not violence. It will teach you to control your dog and your dog to control himself. Then step up to herding--this gives the dog a job to do. 
Good luck. I raised rottweilers for 20 yrs and they were trained well and livestock safe. I have a video of my last rottie with the chickens. I'll try to find it and post a link. Gracie was EXTREME high prey drive and trained in obedience and schutzhund.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Well, I put it on my FB page-- http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100000706994936 I did a search for it here, but couldn't find it. I know I'd posted it here, cuz I remember Lee commenting on it.


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

Once again you all have come through brilliantly :biggrin
This morning the girls look good and dry, so far so good. I did reinforce the latch yesterday so this wont happen again.
The dog: he is 6 months old. I sent him to obedience school for 3 weeks. He came back able to sit, stay and sometimes to come. Off leash he does what he wants. I will start to spend more time with him, I see that is not a choice. Thank you for reminding me that I need to be top dog. He is such a loving dog I forget. I know,not a good excuse. I hate popping him, it always seemed wrong, but that is what the trainer said to do. I tried to replace that with a shock collar. I had to stop it just seemed too cruel, I took the collar off and saw that it burned his neck! Who came up with that torture device! I have picked him up by the scruff of his neck and pushed him to the ground when he did soemthing bad, but I didn't know that was a training method. Now that you say it is, I feel natural correcting him in this way (MANY MANY thanks) and will start to do that.
Every once in awhile someone will walk by or drive by real slow, it makes me nervous and I think "ok which is the closest gun", but when Zev runs out barking, I forget about the gun and keep on with I am doing. Such a feeling of security is priceless; as is all of your input.
Rose, no hard feelings


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Please, PLEASE, be careful with this type of "Alpha Roll" (grabbing by the scruff and throwing to the ground). Dogs do NOT naturally do this type of roll. With a TRUE alpha roll, the subservient dog will roll on his back and submit without the alpha dog ever touching him. 
This type of correction only teaches the dog that he is sub to YOU. The goats cannot alpha roll, so it does not teach him that THEY are the boss and to leave them alone. The first thing my dogs always learn is 'Pay Attention' (to me!).  Second--'LEAVE IT!'. 
Getting into specifics of dog training here is pretty much a mute point. With a Belgian Malinois you really need to find a GREAT trainer. Dog training is FUN!  A reputable trainer will teach YOU how to train your dog without 'popping' or negative correction--I love, love, love positive reinforcement. I'm not fond of sending a dog of this caliber to a trainer without the owner being involved. 
I could go on and on and on about this subject.  My best advice--find a WONDERFUL trainer and you will love training your dog and your dog will love being trained.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Agree Denise that alpha roll in an adult is another topic. Scruffing a puppy not only works but they expect it :yes
They would rather someone direct them and give them guidelines and if you can do it all with positive reinforcement then you are not working with a dog that will afford much protection :shrug

I do remember your Rottie pics :handclap

Our command that is like your use of Pay Attention is Be Careful  and they are just that anytime you say it.
They learn to freeze and look for guidance at that command but not without first accepting at reflex level that you are the correct person to be giving them commands! Gotta love a good dog but it takes lots of input and the earlier the better. 

Sorry for the super-hijack of emergency. ops Looks like we need a canine category 
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah lets try to leave this section for answering just the emergency question and then when we put it into the main discussion we can do more helping 

Obedience is about your role with the dog, everything we do is about our realtionship with the dog, unless socialized with you and children, you and other adults, you and livestock, a non LGD breed that already chases is not going to stop. Sure he will start up while you are there if well trained. The idea you can teach a dog to not run after your goats when he is not a livestock breed, isn't going to happen. Now I am not saying YOU can't be trained to be with the dog 24/7, or to kennel the dog unless you are with him, or to somehow make fences that your dog can never get in with the goats, but that is not training a livestock dog. You can be assured if he gets loose he will go back and play with your goats. Vicki


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

ouch :blush, I am calling the trainer tomorrow. Thanks for the push. Goats are doing well. Am keeping wounds clean and dry and so far they are still looking good.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Yeah, it is very hard to teach a dog to NOT mess with your goats once he does. We have an old Blue Heeler type dog who was a great cow dog when he was working, but who is now old, grumpy and bored and he makes an absolutely awful goat dog (he will chase and bite if I'm not right on top of him). We've had him for so long that it wouldn't be fair to get rid of him (where would you send an old farm dog??), even though it sometimes wears me out to keep an eye on him during chore time (he's so loyal: he always tags along and goes where I go). The reason why I know it's so hard to keep a dog from chasing/biting your goats once they do it? Because I can actually see my dog TRY to behave: when I move goats, he'll get all nervous, and when I warn him 'Max, back off' he'll go and grab a stick or stone to keep himself from snapping at the goats and just jog alongside the fence or the herd with his mouth full while growling. He tries, but is definitely not 100% successful and it is just a huge hassle to deal with. Luckily your dog is a pup, and I sure hope you can teach him the right thing! Good luck!


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

> Scruffing a puppy not only works but they expect it


I have seen my adult dog pin my puppy when he gets out of line, and the pup definitely gets the message. I have tried very hard to imitate how my adult dog disciplines the pup, and it works; in our case, you have to be sure that the pup understands that you are disciplining him but not intending to hurt him, otherwise he reacts (badly) out of fear.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm going to have to disagree with the idea it's _impossible_ to train a dog not to chase livestock. Very hard, yes, impossible? I don't believe so from my own experiences. I have three dogs, 2 border collies and one ridgeback. All driven breeds. They all killed chickens, or in the case of the ridgeback, chased and tried to but was stopped by me. But they all three live 24/7 with free range chickens now and pay them no mind. Of course one of the border collies is 18 so she doesn't pay much of anything any mind, what little she has left.

Now, I will say, the dedication it takes to teach this, most people don't have. It's a lot of work but the old saying that a chicken killing dog will always kill chickens isn't true. I would think this would apply to all livestock. And chasing= killing, plain as that.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I believe it's more the breed of dog that can make it hard to train not to chase. The breed of dogs I have...Alaskan Malamutes....have extreme prey drives. They were bred for this...they would be turned loose on an island in the summer months to fend for themselves or die. They are still a very primitive breed. Even the pups that were raised from birth with goats suddenly decided at about 6 months of age that goats were prey. Nothing will change their minds. They might not go after them when I am near by, but I know if I was not there, the goats would be food.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I don't think this is extremely off topic, although it is beyond the emergency point. The question of treating the wounds was addressed and this discussion addresses the question of how to correct the dog. Hopefully it will help the OP so it doesn't happen again and also help others so it doesn't happen to their goats. 

The key is TRAINING. No matter what. You simply cannot get a puppy and toss it out with your livestock and think 'Well, since it is *raised* with livestock, this won't happen.' Even LGD puppies need training to learn to leave the livestock alone. 

Agree with Ashley--NOTHING is impossible, but it generally isn't easy either. 

Lee and I just have to agree to disagree on scruffing, etc. I train totally hands off--positive reinforcement with corrections being done verbally. My female Anatolian/Kangal gets alpha rolled occasionally and does it naturally. She is SASSY and would love to have the chance to be boss. Ain't gonna happen!  And I have seen it done with protection dogs. It's an amazing thing to witness.  What works for one person or their dog, may not work for another. 
The main thing is--find what works for you and work at it. Training/reinforcement for these breeds is a lifetime commitment to have a dog you can truly count on.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

> Lee and I just have to agree to disagree on scruffing, etc. I train totally hands off--positive reinforcement with corrections being done verbally.


I would love to see you try that with my ridgeback lol. Not being sarcastic, just literally would love to see someone try :rofl . Of course now that she is trained yea, it's hands off. But as a pup nothing would have meant anything if I didn't physically back it up. She was absolutely totally 100% different than my other dogs. She was going to do what she was going to do. She's still very hard headed but with 100% consistent training and swift correction for two years she is finally halfway decent. It's almost like she actually doesn't have the abililty to control her own actions sometimes. Never had any animal like it.

I go by how animals communicate with eachother. Some people say you should never hit a horse. I say why not, they kick the snot out of eachother? They bite and leave whelps, double barrel eachother, dogs get in physical disagreements, cattle will throw eachother, goats slam eachother.

The difference is in application. People smack cause they're ticked or frustrated. Tey don't read the animal, they don't make sure the animal knows what they are doing wrong before they harshly correct it. They don't teach them what's expected of them. They reprimand for their self instead of for the animal. That's when physical or even verbal correction is a problem.

Animals use a lot of body language people don' pick up on. They do a lot of communication before they become physical, it's something they try first to avoid, but they _are _willing to it when necessary. Just the attitude a person or animal carries when they are willing to back up what they say is usually enough. It completely changes your whole body langauge and animals pick up on that. Except goats and my dog Safara. :lol And that huge fresian cross I worked with the other day


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

If not already done, I would add a tetanus antitoxin injection to your treatment protocol for these two goats.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Trysta that is an amazing dog to learn a displacement behavior to keep from getting in trouble.
That breed was selected for chasing and we worked with them cutting cattle at a rodeo when I was young.
What a great guy! Trying so hard to be good.
Lee


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

Am hearing all of you and been working the dog hard to train and wear him out. Coincidentally, in the past week, I had 2 scary incidents with people hanging out, had to call police on one. When the sheriff came up to the gate, the dog snapped at him, went through his shirt and bit his bullet proof vest. Awww s_ _ t. This poor dog tries real hard, but I think its me not training him properly. I am soooo sad, I think I will have to donate him to one of the K-9 units. Maybe take some shooting lessons and carry a holstered gun. I guess I never paid much attention before my husband moved out. However I do feel more in charge of my life...for better or worse.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

If this dog doesn't work out, there are breeds that aren't as aggressive, but will still protect you if the situation calls for it. Back when I was younger and living in Milwaukee, I had a dog that was a Keeshound German Shepherd cross. Normally, she was friendly to everyone. One night I invited a customer from the place where I worked to my place for pizza. Turns out he wanted more than pizza and when Sadie saw I was in trouble, she nipped him. I never saw anyone leave so fast. I didn't have goats back then, but she was gentle with the cats. If I ever needed a dog for protection for myself and home, I'd opt for a spayed Shepherd bitch. They are smart and extremely trainable. One family who bought a couple of milkers from me this year came in a car and brought their Shepherd. She rode in the back with the goats and was totally respectful of them, Of course I wouldn't leave one in my goat pen without me there, but I wouldn't leave my Border Collie or ShihTzu Cocker cross in my pens either.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

buckrun said:


> Trysta that is an amazing dog to learn a displacement behavior to keep from getting in trouble.
> That breed was selected for chasing and we worked with them cutting cattle at a rodeo when I was young.
> What a great guy! Trying so hard to be good.
> Lee


Lee, I agree, and it helps, even if it's far from perfect. He did come up with it himself, though, pretty smart guy! He used to be fantastic with the cows and could get a group of cows out of the pasture to the parlor or help when we were sorting cows out to treat or breed. Friends of ours in Texas had a dog like that too and if you told it 'Angie, kill the bull!' she would find the bull in a group of cows and stay in between the bull and the human all the time to keep her human safe! Blue heelers are awesome dogs as long as you have them working. They tend to get in trouble (like ours) if they get bored.


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

Update on the dog and goat situation. Goats are all healed, either they are very healthy or I overreacted or both. Had a lesson with the trainer again, I was working him wrong. Learned to correct my training style and I feel like Cesar in the Dog Whisperer. Its WORKING. I will keep it up rain or shine...we even worked out in 101 degree heat. I am determined to keep this loving wild child. It *IS* fun working him. THX


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Malinois are intense dogs. They need intense traing. It also gives intense satisfaction. Glad you are having fun. 

Really--check into a schutzhund club if there's one near you. Most won't let you really get into training until about 18 months old, but they will let you start in their obedience--and it's more than worth it. Tracking is AWESOME! And if you're not comfortable with the bite work, it's not required just to go to training. (And the dues are much, MUCH less than the fees of an 'obedience' trainer. )


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

That is great news, Dori! Goats are pretty resilient. I am glad you are enjoying training your dog, too.


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## BrokenHalterFarm (Feb 16, 2010)

A shock collar should never burn the dog , if your using one that is they either the dog is very sensitive skinned , you have it turned up to high , OR the brand itself is just to much.

I use dogtra brand E-collars , the dog has to be trained how to respond to it the same as if you were leash training it.
I've used the same E-collar on everyone of my dogs and typically only need to use the vibrate option.

Heres a question that I may of missed the answer. 
Is the dog a protection dog , or is it a herding dog?
Not many dogs can do two distinct jobs easily. But at his age , its not unexpected if the dog is confused.
You have one of the highest drive breeds out there , you have to always be at the top of your game.

Electronic collars ARE not cruel. They just have to be used properly.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Sometimes they can rub. You have to make sure the collar isn't too tight. I trained my farm collie with one. It was easy. Although I have to say she pretty much trained herself by watching me and learning what I want. I love this breed!


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

I am using a choke collar with him and he is doing very well. I am learning to anticipate him and that makes control easier. he is a protection dog, but is attracted to the goats. He no longer barks at them just runs around the fence. I began keeping stats on milking quantity and whether the dog was around or not (learned something useful in grad school) and apparently it doesn't matter. With all the personal stuff going on with me I think me and my menagerie are settling into a nice routine. Hope that's not a train at the end of the tunnel, LOL


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

JMO...for formal training I like prong collars and training collars (like a choke, but with oblong links). Informal--love, love, LOVE , martingale collars. 
Never used an e-collar--not against them, just never needed one.

Glad things are falling into place for you.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

We use a prong collar on one of our dogs. It's wonderful for him. Tried a "halti" (aka "gentle leader") with him and he hated it. He was always trying to get it off and eventually got to the point where this 90 pound dog would hide behind a chair if he saw you coming with it. The allegedly "cruel" prong collar? He just holds out his neck for you to put it on him.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

hsmomof4 said:


> The allegedly "cruel" prong collar? He just holds out his neck for you to put it on him.


LOL. When we'd be getting ready to go to Schutzhund training, I'd ask Gracie 'Ya ready to go to school?'. She's run and bring me her prong collor and wiggle with excitement as I put it on her.


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## BrokenHalterFarm (Feb 16, 2010)

The oblong chain collars are called Fur saver collars.

I wouldnt even let the dog run the fence. With animals you have to keep in mind that one step leads to three more.
So being allowed to run the fence still keeps it in his mind that he can harass the goats.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I wouldn't even let the dog run the fence. With animals you have to keep in mind that one step leads to three more.
So being allowed to run the fence still keeps it in his mind that he can harass the goats.
........................

Absolutely! Our dogs are never allowed to show any prey driven behavior towards our animals, which with ridgebacks can be as simple as the way they lay and watch the goats at the fence, even if in play. Chasing on fence line just means that without the fence, or being able to go under or over the fence you will have mauled goats eventually. Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

> Absolutely! Our dogs are never allowed to show any prey driven behavior towards our animals, which with ridgebacks can be as simple as the way they lay and watch the goats at the fence, even if in play. Chasing on fence line just means that without the fence, or being able to go under or over the fence you will have mauled goats eventually. Vicki


 :yeahthat


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

OMG didn't think of that (re: running the fence) thanks for the advise.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Dorit with a breed that excells at agility tests, fences don't keep ridgebacks out of anything  Vicki


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