# lute to induce heat



## dq (Aug 15, 2008)

My long story, long shot doe with a wacky cycle just came back _not_ pregnant by blood test. the vet looked at me cross eyed when I asked him about cystorellin previously but I have some lute on hand to attempt to get this doe to cycle.

I would like some clarification/have questions. I have read to lute and then lute again in 10 days. my lute is 5mg per mL. directions I see are for 2.5g per mL. how exact does it really need to be? is it true that I need less to induce heat than to abort, as in ,do I need to dose at 5 mg or 2.5 mg? at what point can I expect to see a heat cyle that has a chance at actually releasing eggs? am I even on the right track or do I really need to find someone that will sell me the cystorellin to have a chance? If I can just get a doe out of her then she is history. I'm really stubborn :sigh I think her problems are due to previous care not genes, but fate may slap be.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

I've always used 2cc per doe, and on the third day put her in with the buck. This year, on one doe, she wanted nothing to do with the buck on day 3, it was on day 4 that she started her screaming.. weird.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

right 2cc per doe regarless of weight 
Now I don't know if there are different strenghts of lute so would ck that out.


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

I did not have luck with an egg last time with lute...what is this Cystorillin? Thanks...not totally trying to hijack...LOL..


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## dq (Aug 15, 2008)

does anyone have a bottle of lute on hand that could tell me if it says 2.5mg per ml ? maybe that was just a typo I read somewhere and they are all 5mg per ml????

ok I found it on the med list finally, apparently there _are_ at least two different strengths becaue it list it as 2.5 mg per ml. I thought I needed to re-lute but I guess that is just for synchronizing does. I suppose I will give it a shot... :biggrin and go by the dose on the med list which should equal about 1/2 ml with the strength I have.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

All lute is 5mg/ml. Estrumate is 250mcg/ml. 
Someone may have been given Estrumate to use (as it will do exactly the same thing as Lute) and didn't know how to read the lable. Or I have read on the interent that someone started a blasted rumor to use Lute at this dose. A cow dose is 5cc. Sounds to me like someone got mg and cc confused.



> I did not have luck with an egg last time with lute


How do you know you didn't get an egg? curious.

Cystorellin is used for cystic ovaries, though we DO use it in other ways. 
Kaye


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## dq (Aug 15, 2008)

on the med list or whatever it is called its says

Rx item
Lutalyse® (2mg/ml)

it has other prostaglandins that say 5mg/ml .

I guess I am misunderstanding something. In just gave her 3/4 ml. should I go out there and give her another ml do you think? she is probably cystic and won't release an egg anyway 

I used it at 1ml to abort a doe recently and it was successful.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

I have looked at every drug site I can find and I can't find Lute in 2mg/ml? I need to know where you found this...so in future reference I know to ask if it's 5mg or 2mg.
Just for my own piece of mind. Kind of like 2 and 4mg dexamethosone.
Kaye


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## dq (Aug 15, 2008)

sorry my wording created a misunderstandng. the "med list" I was talking about was on this site. I haven't found any 2mg/ml that is the deal  the dosages I have seen for it are for 2mg/ml but my box says 5mg/ml so......I dont' know what to think. its probably something really stupid and obvious that I am missing. I gave her about 3/4 ml and I will see if she comes into heat in a few days. :sigh


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Leah goatkeeping 101...sannendoah.com med list? Vicki


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## dq (Aug 15, 2008)

it was here. http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,35.0.html
I was so lost by the time I found it I bookmarked it so I wouldn't lose it!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Kaye could you check this out when you get time. I so rarely even have whole bottles, mine are repulled and in containers. Vicki


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

Kaye, I don't know that I didn't get an egg, but she did not take and Theresa of Biogenics said that most often there is no egg when you lute just for heat cycle...so it is just me assuming...and yes, I know what that means. It was however asked of me if I had tried the cystorlin stuff and I said no, what's that to the person asking and they said I dunno just heard it worked better.....lol....this is how things happen outside of DGI...hehehe

So, I thought I would ask here, how it would pertain to breeding.

Thanks,

Paula


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## dq (Aug 15, 2008)

I read that you can use us hcg (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) followed by lute successfully on cystic does. Is cystorellin just the brand name of it? 
saw it here http://www.jackmauldin.com/diseases.htm
.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

CYSTORELIN ®, FACTREL ® 
Gonadorelin 
(Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone, GnRH) 
Gonadorelin increases the synthesis and release of FSH and LH. 
It is used in the treatment of follicular cysts and may also be used to increase fertility in cows with previously retained placenta. 
...................

But like most things it's best to get info on hormone protocols from those who have used it successfully...like here  Vicki


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## dq (Aug 15, 2008)

thanks! can you give me any "success rates" on inducing ovulation useing only lutelyse in cystic does? I'm wondering if what I am doing is pointless or just has less success than using it with the cystorelin. At least I'm learning about these things with her. :/

I will prod my vet more if I have to, I have found one that will very hesitantly sell me stuff if I tell him what I am doing and why. but he only knew to use lute if she was cystic. (as if there really is an "if")


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Rx item
> Lutalyse® (2mg/ml), Prostin F2 Alpha®" both by Upjohn & ProstaMate, Phoenix Scientific. - Naturally-occurring PGF2a as the tromethamine salt. *Dinoprost tromethamine 5mg/ml.* Prostaglandin F2 Alpha 5mg/ml.


 Lute is 5mg/ml. The above is a typo. The drug in bold letters *IS* Lutalyse. Lutalyse is also distributed by Pharmacia & Upjohn company, a Division of Pfizer.
The most used dose in repro for caprines is 2cc regardless of weight. More and less is suggested in some "circles" but after 20+ years of using it at 2ml per goat for either heat, induction of labor or to correct a misbreeding...I'll just stick with what works and seems to cause the least amount of problems. I like simple.

There are several different types of hormones that are used ,just a few: The more common reproductive hormones are PFG, human chroionic gonadotropin (HCG), gondadotropic releasing hormone (GnRH), estrogen, oxytocin, progesterone, lutenizing hormone (LH) and follicular stimulating hormone (FSH). It's MUCH easier to get PMSG (pregnant mare serum gonadotropin) than HCG. PG 600, no Rx, is one route. LOL...just try to get a vet to dispense FSH without knowing you REAL WELL! Used to be that most of these drugs were OTC...now, MOST are Rx and for good reason.

I hope this explained a few things.
Kaye

Paula,


> they said I dunno *just heard * it worked better


Sorry, but if that statement came from anyone but a repro. specialist (and I emphasize specialist), I'd have to pass on their recommendation. If it was a repro specialist I'd have pushed for more (a lot more) detail.
If you had followed that shot of lute with another in 10-14 days (I prefer 14 to make sure there's a mature CL(egg?)) then that heat SHOULD have been a fertile heat. Provided the doe did not have an active infection, was barren, or had more complicated repro. problems. Lute will not work if you're trying to cycle a doe out of breeding season or there is no mature CL on the ovary. Cystorellin is also used when breeding AI to guarantee that any mature *eggs* are released from the ovary. Also used in does that are crazy cycling-like every 5-9 days and not settling. It's also used in embryo flushes or a similar drug. All this has a long drawn out technical explaination but I find them generally too in depth and complicated. Like trying to explain advanced math to me~who hates math! :lol


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> can you give me any "success rates" on inducing ovulation useing only lutelyse in cystic does


Not very good. You can use the lute to bring the doe into a heat, but if she's cystic then she's still not going to release the egg. Just recycle, and recycle, and recycle.

IF I were going to try to breed this doe and barring any further repro complications I would lute the doe 2cc IM(not breed on this heat) along with 1cc of Cystorellin , wait 14 days, lute her again-2cc IM and on this heat, at the first sign of heat give her 1cc of Cystorellin IM, put her with the buck and leave her. 24hrs. from the 1st shot, give her another 1cc IM of Cystorellin.
I have succesfully settled problem does using this method. 
I've also used this method to do uterine flushes on does, by doing the uterine flush on the first induced heat and not using the cystorellin. Then using the Cystorellin on the 2nd induced heat.
Kaye


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## dq (Aug 15, 2008)

you guys are awesome thank you. so its just a typo. see if I wouldn't be so anal about this stuff and just followed the directions I wouldn't have stirred this all up. sorry. 

kaye - thank you for an exact protocol to try on this doe. I will be calling the vet today and be a little more pushy about the cystorellin as it is probably the only hope.


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## dq (Aug 15, 2008)

well I was all ready to go to the vet to get the cystorellin and I came to my senses. I'm going to save my pennies and buy a nice doe this spring and quit wasting time and energy on this one and suck it up and put her down. this is the last straw. thank you all for your help I have learned alot, including when its time to give up.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

It happens. 
I've put down a doe that was very hard to breed. Even from a doeling this doe took several tries to settle. Next year she started the same bull. I thought...since reproduction IS hereditary, why in the world was I trying so hard to propagate that line? She was history.

Now, some I just get hard-headed about and will *work* a doe that WAS an easy breeder but developed issues. I *worked* one for 4 months and used about every trick in the book...but FINALLY got her bred and she delivered triplets. Course she was a nice doe, given to me because she wouldn't settle. She was a good learning experience.

I think your decision on this is the smart one. 
Kaye


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

Kaye, the gal who said "heard it works better" was not Theresa...we did not even talk about that, just the Lute...it was a boer breeder down the road that I was complaining to...just didn't want any misunderstandings.

Paula


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

I didn't call any names and wasn't even referring to her or any of the other specialist. ?? There are many more people out there that know more than I. I'd be the last one to question their knowledge. I'm just anal about little details that make a difference in success or failure.
It was just a statement, in how I would handle that type of statement. I have the utmost respect for anyone with knowledge of reproduction. I'm usually the first one to ask for details on any new or even some old methods. It's all quite fascinating to me and I try to learn all I can about manipulation. Though, I don't pass on info. that I haven't tried myself.

No misunderstanding, I wasn't refferring to anyone in particular.
Kaye


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

I knew that...LOL...just we know that so many folks read these and I wanted to be clear....plus, I did waaay to much today and am back on pain pills so who knows ... I should refrain from posting....Not..I am way to bored for that.

P


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