# Surge milker - need help



## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I tried using my rebuilt milker today for the first time. It sucks just fine when I place the inflations in a bucket of water. When I try to put it on the goat, nothing happens.

It doesn't have the vacuum cut-offs by the inflations, which I wish it did.

Now what?


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2008)

I assume that your pulsater is working properly. Are your inflations expanding and contracting like normal ?. Do you have a negative 11 to 12 lbs on your vacuum guage ? If you have claws, are they put together properly.

I would think that if you were loosing a vacuum, that you would be able to hear a sucking sound somewhere.

I'm not sure what happens when an inflation splits (I haven't had one to wear out yet) but I wouldn't think that would be the case with everything just rebuilt.

Maybe some others will be able to help you....but I would answer the questions above, as it might help somebody eliminate an area or two when trying to figure it out.

Best wishes.......WHIM


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Q: I assume that your pulsater is working properly.

A: I think so. 

Q:Are your inflations expanding and contracting like normal ?

A: I don't know, but I don't think so. I stuck my finger in it, and it didn't suck down, but my fingers are smaller than teats.

Q: Do you have a negative 11 to 12 lbs on your vacuum guage ? 

A: No. I don't know what to do about that. It does when it's in the water bucket.

Q: If you have claws, are they put together properly?

A: I don't know. I don't know what it's supposed to look like. It was supposed to come assembled, so I'm assuming it's right.

Q: I would think that if you were loosing a vacuum, that you would be able to hear a sucking sound somewhere.

A: If I put my ear to the end of the inflation, yes, I hear sucking, but there's not a good vacuum.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2008)

OK.....if your pulsater is working right, it should be making a clicking sound much like the rhythm of a clock on a wall.

Inflations should snug and unsnug against your finger (nomatter how small your finger is) to the beat of the pulsater.

I think that you are loosing vacuum before hookup. If you are not showing 11 to 12 neg. on the vacuum gauge at hookup, then you don't have enough vacuum to make this thing work properly.

If you have claws on the bottom of each inflation, then it sounds like they may be blocked open all the time ....thus not allowing your vacuum to build up neg pressure in your reservoir tank.

If there are no claws or no valves to shut your lines off on on.....then you are probably not gonna be able to build up enough vacuum to make this thing work properly.

One more question.......is this a machine that you have used before ? (or just bought)... If so, what did they change about it ?

Maybe Ken can get on here, as he knows much more than me about the mechanics in play here.

WHIM


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Q: One more question.......is this a machine that you have used before ? (or just bought)... If so, what did they change about it ?

A: This is my first machine. First time ever to try a milking machine. TOTAL newbie on the whole milking machine aspect of milk goats. :help2

Q: If your pulsator is working right, it should be making a clicking sound much like the rhythm of a clock on a wall.

A: Yes, it's doing that, when the inflations are in the bucket of water.

Q: Inflations should snug and unsnug against your finger (no matter how small your finger is) to the beat of the pulsater.

A: Not doing this.

Q: If you have claws on the bottom of each inflation, then it sounds like they may be blocked open all the time ....thus not allowing your vacuum to build up neg pressure in your reservoir tank. If there are no claws or no valves to shut your lines off on on.....then you are probably not gonna be able to build up enough vacuum to make this thing work properly.

A: The claw is the whole assembly with fittings, right? It has that, but it does not have cut off valves.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2008)

OK.......it sounds like you are not able to build up the vacuum that you need to make the initial hookup.

I've only had one set of claws....so I'm guessing here just a bit.

The ones that I used had a check type disk in them (checkvalve) ...about the size of a half dollar. These can be held open by a little switch type thingy located on the claw. If these are held open constantly, it will be letting air pass through so fast that your system never builds up enough vacuum to operate . 

By the fact that you say that it seems to build up vacuum enough to work while your inflations is in a bucket of water, tends to make me believe that this is a claw operational problem.

See if you can send Ken ( aRealdairyman ) a PM ......he has seen way more of these different type claws and setups than I have, and would come much closer to figuring this problem out.

Don't know if it possible, but a pic of the machine....mainly a fairly close pic of the inflations and claws , hooked up to the milk lines might help us solve the problem.

WHIM


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)




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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

don't think that is a claw Rose, do you have anything further back on the line? To the right of your picture?


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

From there, it's just the hoses to the bucket. Pictures follow:


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Here's everything:


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

I didn't read through everything-so if I'm repeating things sorry. You don't have claws, which are nice but not necessary. Some cheap shut-offs would help you out alot. Otherwise your going to lose vacuum before you get them on the teat. Maybe those little caps are plugs or something? never seen that before.. Anyhow, the vacuum should pick up again once the teats are in place, but that would mean holding them both on snuggly. A bit awkward. I have the same surge lid and if your goats are lower than the bucket you've been sucking water out of it could be that the milk lines are getting shut off when you try to put them on the goat. Those lids are made so with a cow you can drop the inflations and it seals off the hose. if you look at where the hoses slide on they are pointy. You can grind those off..I have a delavel bucket so I bungee the handle up to support the lines. I've got a new lid now and I can't wait to switch!


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2008)

OK....no, you have no claws or valves....so air is going through your lines as soon as you turn the vacuum pump on I guess. 
OK....there is an air line form your vacuum pump to your air tank.....then from your air tank to your surge bucket. Is there a shut off/on valve located on this line between your air tank and your milk bucket ?

I assume if there is one, that this is how to shut the vacuum off and on while your hooking up to the teats, and releasing from them.

I'll be honest with you.......I set mine up with those green colored manual type valves on each of my milk lines....so I can turn them on and off to each inflation as needed. I open the valve(s) just as I'm slipping the inflation on the teat, and then shut the valve off before removing it. This setup works well for me as I never waste much vacuum in the process.....and too, I'm always with my doe while she is on the stand, so I don't worry about an inflation fallin off or something else going wrong.

I also have a main valve on my vacuum line between my air tank and my milk bucket, which will kill my pulsater too......just in case I want to kill the whole system without having to cut my pump off.

Hang in there....we'll figure this thing out one way or another.

Whim


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Nope, no cut offs anywhere except the switch that turns the pump on and off.

So..... I need to order something from Hoegger. Cut off valves? Claws?


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2008)

Alice,

Try kinking the hose before putting the inflations on the teats. Perhaps that will help you to not lose vacuum.

I too love the shut off valves. 

Sara


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Do both hoses that go to each inflation need to be kinked? He's got them tied together with zip ties. I can loosen a tie or two if it's just the one hose that needs to be kinked to make it easier.

Making sure I understand.... kink, let pressure build, put inflation over teat, unkink. Correct?


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2008)

I used to have different inflations and claws than I do now... they didn't have shut offs and I struggled with vacuum issues when learning how to milk by machine for the first time.

I didn't have a Surge bucket so I don't know if this will work for you but it is worth a try for now. Kink the milk hose (I had silicone so it was easy). Yes, kink, build pressure, put on teats, unkink. If it works you will easily get the hang of it and then the process will be much quicker and you can unkink as you are putting the inflations on the teats.

I haven't seen the caps on your inflations before... do they work to prevent the loss of vacuum?

Good luck.

Sara

I forgot to ask, have you tried just sucking a bucket of water through the inflations to make sure you even have vacuum?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

My set up is exactly like yours except I have the shut off valves and different inflations. 
Try this close those caps on the end of your inflations. as you put it to the teat under the cap and put on the teat one at a time. or do as Sara says and fold your line over to put a kink in it while putting it on the teat. GET YOU SOME shut off valves your life will be much easier. you might can find them in a hardware store near you. otherwise order them.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, it works fine if you drop the inflations into a five gallon bucket full of water. :sigh

Our vet is a former dairy person. On the off chance he has some, I'm calling to see if he has cut off valves sitting around.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If the vacume guage will read 12 with the inflations in a bucket of water than...

Does the vacume run at 12 with your caps on the end of your shells/inflations? IF not than up your vacume by turning the screw on until with the caps on your shells/inflation it reads about 13. Now when the pressure is correct, hurry and take the cap off and slip it on the teat. You are letting all the vacume escape.

Kinking it will also work like Sara said, but that is what your caps are for. Vicki


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I have a hard time making the caps go in and stay on. I'll work on it. Don't know if it's my arthritis or the newness of the caps.

I'll be doing a lot of experimenting this evening.


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

From your photos it looks like you have no ballast tank. If you don't then the only air vacuum tank your using is whats in the surge bucket itself which isn't enough to keep up pressure while you get the hoses on the teats unless your very fast. If you hold them inflations on the teats, both at the same time, your machine will build up pressure again after a minute or so. Just hold them up snug on the teats and you should be fine. Your hardest problem is going to be getting them off without shut off valves as you can do injury to the teats just breaking suction off. You'll need to shut your whole machine off and on as you take them off and put them on a new doe. This will get you by until you can get a ballast tank built, real easy out of 3-4 inch pvc pipe.

The caps are used to keep your vaccuum up when you have one side milk faster than the other you can cap the one side off without having to use your hands to shut the vacuum off one inflation.


Ray


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Good catch there RAY yep you need a ballast tank


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

What's a ballast tank?

I'm really starting to be disappointed in the seller on this system. He told me it was ready to go. :help


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Go look at Christy's website cottoneyed does the ballast tank on hers is a pvc pipe.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2008)

OK....looks like the problem has been spotted now...........I think you would need to kink both lines until you have the needed vacuum built up.....unkink one line as you hook it up to the teat (really quickly)....then unkink the other line and hook it up to the other teat.

I don't like all this line kinking talk myself....as I think it would ruin your lines before too long. I would get me some valves from Hamby or someone. Before you order any, be sure you know your hose sizes. Not only would I put one at about 6 inches back down the line from each inflation.......I would also get a main shut off valve to kill the vacuum between my air (vacuum holding tank) and my surge bucket.....much like I told you in an earlier post about how mine is set up.

I assume that's what those caps are made for......but they look like trouble to me. These valves only run about $5 a pop, and are well worth it. I know there are others that are helpful, but Hamby was the one that took the time to figure out what I needed here, and I much appreciated it. I will order from them again.

WHIM


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2008)

whimmididdle said:


> I don't like all this line kinking talk myself....as I think it would ruin your lines before too long. I would get me some valves from Hamby or someone. Before you order any, be sure you know your hose sizes.
> WHIM


The kinking didn't ruin my lines. Although my hoses were silicone, kinking didn't hurt a thing. I did it this for a few years (3+). I agree that the shut offs are much easier to use, but kinking the hoses didn't damage the silicone in the least.

Sara


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2008)

OK Sara ...that's cool then

...and dummy me didn't reallize there was a page two to this thread before making my last post.

Rose is there nothing but an air line running from your pump.....going straight to the milk bucket ....no kind of tank in between ? If not, then Ray is right on. As long as your surge bucket was nearly empty, it could serve to hold some vacuum reserve......but as the bucket gets filled with milk, the milk displaces your air vacuum capacity (in the bucket)....thus leaving you very little reserve when hooking up and taking off inflations.

BTW.....you can make a ballast tank (or vacuum reserve tank) out of about any type tank that will hold 2 to 3 gallons of air. Mine is an old air compressor tank ....I think it holds 5 gallons...so I have a little extra reserve to mess with.

What is a ballast tank............think about an air compressor/with pressure tank,.... only in reverse. Instead of air pressure building up in the tank, you are creating a vacuum inside the tank.

Does that make sense ?

Whim


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I sort of made it work. First - what I did. Then - more questions!

I jammed those tabs down into the tops of the inflations and got it to build pressure, but realized the pressure was too low. Set it up as per your instructions. I held the inflations right next to the doe's cleaned teat and uncapped it and slipped it on quickly. IT WORKED!

My older one-teated Alpine has been milked by machine at her previous owner's milk barn, so she was fine. My FF Nubian sort of gasped and then hunkered down. Not a flinch or dance from a doe who could have tried out for the goat version of River Dance a few months ago.

Questions:
1. How do you know when to stop? The milk never seemed to completely fill the lines and sort of sloshes back and forth in time with the pulsations.

2. How do you get the inflation off gracefully? It seemed like I was having to try to break the suction and tug awfully.

3. What do you do with the lid after you take it off? I didn't want to set it down so that the down side was on anything, but when I turned it over to set it down, a few drops of milk wound up heading up the suction line toward the pump when I turned it back on.

4. When I hand milk, the doe has plenty of time to eat. With this machine, she didn't have time to finish! What do you ladies and gentlemen do about that?

Thank you SO MUCH!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

1. Nope doesn't fill my lines either but you will hear the inflation chg and also when it slides up twards the udder. Then you hand milk out the rest. 
2. you have to shut off your pump prior to removing the inflations
3. WHY would you take the lid off. Milk all your does then remove the lid to dump your milk. 
4 what I do as I have a one goat system also is there is a bucket of grain sitting on the floor.two does are let in at a time one on the stand and one at the bucket. 1st one is milked taken off the stand to the bucket and second one on the stand. By the time both have been milked that is usually enough grain.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm talking about when you take the lid off when you need to get the milk out, but prior to flushing the lines with water/cleaner. I didn't take it off between does.

Can someone post a link or part number for that in line cut off valve? I'm doing searches, but I can't find it.

Thanks!


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2008)

http://hambydairysupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=447&cat=18&bestseller

Be sure that the size valve matches the size hose.

WHIM


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

measure the Inside diameter of your hose


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

make yourself a hanger for the lid or have a clean bucket sitting there to put it in on it's edge


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

This leads to a question about hose size. I see on the dairy supply pages that there are different sizes and different materials. Is one type, size, material better than any other?


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