# refusing to eat grain



## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

we are newbies in our dairy goat adventure, having purchased our toggs in march. they were doing great until about a week ago. first, fiona, our five-year-old doe started refusing to eat her grain while milking. naturally, the milk supply started to diminish. then i noticed this morning while milking that helena, the 4-year-old, wouldn't eat but half of her grain, and there wasn't as much from her as usual. i was getting one gallon aday from them (together). this morning, i only got half that amount. they are both healthy, playful, chewing the their cud, eat browse, hay, and grass. they are drinking their water (i give them fresh 2x aday). they are getting their minerals. no mastitis, fever, etc... they act perfectly healthy in every way. 

could they be going into heat this early in the year? our weather has been weird - hot for 4 or 5 days, but now it's chilly and we have a freeze warning for tonight.
if anyone could offer any help, i would really appreciate it. this is all new to us, and i feel so helpless....and frustrated that the milk supply is going down so fast. we have a family of 7 and really need - and love -  - the milk.

thank you.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

This could be the beginning of acidosis - baking soda drench for both and withhold the grain. 

Baking soda drench: 1 tbsp baking soda mixed with 1 cup of water. Drench with a syringe or turkey baster.

Is this a new batch of grain? Maybe there is something "off" in the grain (supposedly a lot of corn is showing up with aflatoxins).
I would buy a new bag or even a different brand and then in 3-4 days start them out slowly on the new grain and see how that goes.

Also, keep checking their temperatures. Could be start of getting sick - the changing weather is perfect for pneumonia. If you see a spike in temp than time for the antibiotics and you can probably rule out the other stuff.

Camille

PS Welcome to the Forum and congrats on your new goats.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

hi camille,

is acidosis serious? and does it cause a drop in milk production? is it safe to drink the milk? would you recommend milking 3x aday to boost milk supply?

and how can they be overloaded with grain with i only give them the recommended amount? the grain bin is goat-proof and in another part of the barn that inaccessible to them.

the grain is the same grain that they have been eating since the end of march. 

thanks for your response.


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

Could be an off bag. I use the same lactation pellets all the time but last week they stopped really eating it and just pushing it around in their pan on the milkstand. I opened a new bag and they started gobbling it right up again. For some reason they did not like the first bag. So it got fed to the juniors a little at a time with their regular feed. 
Are you feeding alfalfa hay or alfalfa pellets? That can also make for higher production. If they were used to alfalfa they might be miffed. Yes, mine get miffed if something changes in theri routine.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

hi lanell,

i'm feeding the goats a 15% (protein) grain, and grass hay. i've been giving them the same grain since the last of march, although i did buy a new bag last week. and they have been producing wonderfully since last week. maybe it is an off bag. guess i should get a new bag of grain and give that a try.

thanks for your response.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Acidosis can be serious if not treated promptly. It can turn into entero and kill a goat. Drinking milk from a goat with acidosis won't hurt you or any kids nursing the goat. Acidosis means the pH in the rumen is too acidic, which is why it is treated with baking soda which is alkaline. You might also check the label on the feed bag to see if the formula has changed. The brand I've been feeding for years did that. The label used to say grain products, grain byproducts, forage products as the first three ingredients. It now says wheat middlings, suncured alfalfa, canola meal.
While grain nourishes the lactating goat, I've found it's the quality of the hay I feed which influences production the most. My goats who come to the milk stand twice a day get more grain than does feeding kids who drink all they make. I've found that if I pull those kids to udder a doe up for show, frequently it is those does who are making the most milk. So, yes, milking more often can increase production - however if there is a chance anything is going on with your does healthwise that their production is going down, I wouldn't stress them further by pushing them harder until you get to the bottom of this.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Is it a custom-mixed grain or a brand name feed like Purina or something. Acidosis can set up with too much molasses in the feed (why a lot of us don't feed molasses products). I agree, hay type and quality affect milk production here more than anything. If you are feeding grass hay plus grain, you really don't have a good calcium source going into them. You really need to either get them some alfalfa hay or add alfalfa pellets to their diet. This is both for the health of your does as well as production.

Welcome to the forum. Can you add your name to the signature line?


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

thanks for your response, kathie.

a ?.....how can it be acidosis when the goats have not eaten too much grain? i am very diligent about how much grain they consume, and they can't even get to their grain bin. it is inaccessible to them.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

hi cindy,

the grain is the brand from our local co-op. 2 of my dairy-farming friends use it and have no problems. if the problem is the grain, why is it just now showing up and not earlier? 

and if the hay is the problem, why didn't it show up earlier? it's the same hay that they've been eating for over a month. 

i didn't give them grain while milking this morning - only clover cut from our hay field. they ate it up with no problem, but there was even less milk today than yesterday. this is all very frustrating and disheartening.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

How long have they been fresh?
They may just be trying to wean you 
Try substituting good quality alfalfa pellets for your grain and see if they will eat it and return to lactating normally.

Lee


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

They change what is in those mixes according to what is cheaper at the time in order to keep the price more stable. I was trying to feed a mix last year, and they changed it. The goats immediately went on strike. I went back to oats and alfalfa pellets. And now I've got to cut the alfalfa pellets, cause my hay is too good this spring, and they are picking out the alfalfa pellets now, lol. They can be picky.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Hi 4toggs- welcome to the forum! What's your real name and location? I agree with Lee about adding alfalfa. We feed Chaffhaye instead of pellets, but I would definitely be feeding some type of alfalfa along with your grass hay and grain. It's going to provide the calcium they need.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Clover is a good source of calcium too. Are they getting much of that or was that something new you tried today?


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

hi lee,

both does kidded in january. i'll have to try the alfalfa pellets.

thanks,
lisa


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

they get lots of grass with some clover mixed in while they graze.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

this morning, i compared the lists of ingredients from the old bag and the most recently purchased bag, and everything is the same.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

how much alfalfa pellets should i feed them?

should i mix the pellets with their grain or forget the grain for now?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Since they are refusing the grain then I would just offer the A-pellets alone or they may refuse them as well because the grain is with them.
Give them as much as they will eat while you are milking them. At the low levels of production that should not amount to much.

Lee


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

thanks, lee. since the alfalfa pellets will be new to them, should i try mixing it in with anything else to get them used to it slowly?

i also bought some goat "balancer" supplement (pellet form) 2 days ago, and they like that a little better than the grain, but they don't gobble it up, either. i am only giving them *very* small amounts since it's new. i tried mixing it in with their grain, but they picked it out and left the grain. so this morning, i mixed it in with the fresh clover i gave them.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

and when should i expect the milk production to pick up again?


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Huge Flag here:

Grass hay with grain. There is a calcium/phosphorus imbalance here. First thing the doe will do is stop eating the grain in an effort to get back into balance (please search and study the articles by Sue Reith about hypocalcemia).

These does need alfalfa or alfalfa pellets or clover (calcium type hay). Their production will come back up and none should die.
You don't want to end up with milk fever - or lactational acidosis (which can be an acidotic milk fever) and yes, Kathie is right - something that needs to be addressed right away.

Baking soda drench (can't hurt might help) and alfalfa would be the first thing I would do to these goats if they were here.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

camille,

i stopped the grain yesterday and bought a-pellets. they gobbled them up during the pm milking. i did a soda drench on both of them on monday evening. should i stop offering the hay until i can find calcium hay or alfalfa hay? (and what is the - if any - difference between the 2?)
should i let them graze in the hayfield or keep them in the barn yard?

thanks for your response.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

ps...my children also cut honeysuckle vines and blackberry/raspberry vines to feed them so are getting lots of browse, too.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Lisa, what we are all trying to tell you is that your hay source (grass hay) is not providing the calcium in the diet a doe needs in order to produce as well as to be healthy. Dairy animals need calcium and that will either come from the hay (alfalfa hay or clover hay) or you will need to supplement the hay by feeding alfalfa pellets. If you are only feeding grass hay and grain as you said in your first post, they are not getting any calcium. You are already seeing the effects of this in your milk production. It could only be a matter of time before your does become really sick.

Adding the alfalfa pellets was the right thing to do.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

The hay will be fine and all the browse and graze too if you add in the a-pellets.
Browse is actually the very best source of readily available minerals for goats. Twig bark is packed with nutrition if you have shrubby growth they can have. You will notice they even shred the bark off larger branches. This is in an effort to maintain mineral balance.

Very good to hear they wanted the alfalfa. Don't try too many new things at once.
Since they will eat the A-pellets- continue with that increasing how much they eat and see if it does not make the difference. If you feel they are capable of more production and need the calories add back whole oats for carbs (energy). But we do best here if alfalfa pellets are offered apart- alone- to avoid sorting and slobbering all over everything without eating it. 

For now keep it simple so their rumen bacterial compliment can keep up with the changes.
The time to plan for high level production is before breeding. You will be hard pressed to really kick up the amts of milk they produce if they are halfway through lactation and dropping off. It indicates perhaps they were not conditioned well before breeding. Keep an eye on the future and plan to have them in good condition before breeding so they have reserves to milk with.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

thanks for the encouragement, cindy. i have been really worried about them, and was so glad to see how they are loving the pellets. they are pigging out on wild blackberry bushes, wild rose bushes, and honeysuckle vines this morning.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

thanks, lee. i'm glad to hear that i can give the grass hay w/ the pellets. but would it be best for them to have alfalfa hay instead of the grass hay? i have looked for alfalfa hay and can't find any in our area, but if necessary, i could check with farmers in the next county.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

I feed Chaffhaye alfalfa instead of alfalfa hay. It is near impossible to find a steady supply of tested, good quality alfalfa hay in my area unless you want to pay $18/square bale. Plus we don't have the storage to ensure it doesn't lose its quality. Pellets or Chaffhaye are perfectly suitable substitutes for alfalfa hay in regions where it is hard to get.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

If you can get chaffhaye that would be great. Otherwise, alfalfa pellets with grass hay is just fine. Browse is great! Since you are a bit behind with these girls right now, if they were mine:

Alfalfa pellets
Withhold grain at least a few more days or more, depending on how they are doing. 
Continue with baking soda drench at least once a day
Grass hay
Browse

After they are eating better, then slowly reintroduce your grain, figuring on 1/2 rations for a little while - giving them a chance to get their metabolic system back in balance. Reassess and then move forward. 

Be happy - you dodged a bullet. Be patient - the milk production should come back, but may take a little time.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

camille,

i have one more option about trying to find a-hay. if that particular farmer doesn't sell it, then we'll continue with the a-pellets and grass hay or possibly start use chaffhaye. can you get that at TSC?

i am taking your advice, and i'm so relieved to hear that i have dodged a bullet. 

thanks so much for your help.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

You can get pellets at TSC, but not Chaffhaye. Chaffhaye's website has a list of distributors. Like Camille said, in the meantime pellets will do the trick.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

also, should i continue to let them graze in the field or keep them in the barnyard until they are better?


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## Tracer (Mar 7, 2013)

Have you takin any temps on your does. That's the first thing I check when my goats go off there feed.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

If they are happy and energetic, by all means, let them browse. If we have a sick goat or a doe that is exhausted after kidding, first thing I do is go cut some browse for her. If you have one that is wobbly and doesn't look good, leave her in and bring her browse. 

Camille


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

last night and this morning they gobbled up the pellets, but this evening, they didn't eat nearly as much. they had been out in the clover for most of the afternoon until milking time, so they could they have been too full for the pellets? should i bring them into the barnyard earlier to allow them time to get hungry?


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

but on a good note, i got a little more milk this evening.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Clover is high in calcium as well as alfalfa so if they were grazing on clover, let them eat.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

What kind of clover? Red ~ white ~crimson? Annual or perennial? 
White clover actually has more calcium than alfalfa but it also is very high protein which could be one reason that they refused their milkstand ration. Lush green stage clover can be as high as 25% crude protein and they are showing you that it is enough by refusing more in the ration.
Personally we have to pull our girls from the clover after as short time or they get loose stools and do refuse grain. So if you can mix their grazing time with something a little less powerful - like plain grass only- or hay ( which they are likely to refuse even tho they need it to balance) then they will likely have more appetite for other food. If you are grazing white clover it will soon loose some of the punch and won't be as appetizing so perhaps they will take in more moderate protein grazes like grass. Be sure to keep the grass hay out so they can balance the lack of fiber in the clover with something more fibrous. 
But none of that explains drop in production really.
Lee


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

lee,

they weren't grazely on clover (red and white - perennial) exclusively, but they always go for the patches of clover before they eat the grass. 

today, i'm bringing them into the barnyard a little early so they'll be hungry for the a-pellets.

thanks for the input.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Lisa - Toggs, being a Swiss breed, are fairly heavy milk producers, so you should really be getting more than just a gallon of milk a day from the both of them. At their peak they should be producing in excess of a gallon a day per doe. Because of this they will need more calcium than some other breeds of dairy goats, such as Nubians, to stay well and productive. I think you're on the right track. You can leave baking soda out in a container in a protected area so they can eat it as they feel the need. This is a great way for them to be able to keep their rumens buffered and avoid acidosis. And be sure to check them for parasite overload (since you're new to dairy goats, taking a fecal sample from each of them to the vet is good way to begin . . .although some people who have microscopes check their goats' feces for parasite eggs, I've always been more comfortable having a professionally-trained person do it, even after 20+ years of raising goats). Caroline


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

hi caroline.

a gallon per day from each goat? wow - it be wonderful to get that much milk!  their milk production is bouncing back, oh, the things i could do with all that milk....cheese, soap,etc.. when will the production peak? these does kidded in january.

i de-wormed the goats with the herbal de-wormer from hoegger supply. and i continue to give them one dose per week as recommended.

how much a-pellets should they be eating per day? right now, they are each eating 1 1/2 c. per milking. is that too much? can they get bloat from the pellets like they do with too much?

thanks for you response.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Work them up gradually, but other than that there really isn't such a thing as offering too much pellets. Lots of folks feed them free choice.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

You better do a fecal if you are using herbal wormer.
They are notorious for NOT WORKING in warm humid climates.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Production peaks at 2-3 months usually. I am guessing you may not see their full potential for production until their next lactation.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Everyone has their own feeding methods so all I can do is tell you what we do. Our does eat a lot more than 1 1/2 cups of alfalfa pellets while they're on the milk stand. In fact, we don't even feed alfalfa pellets. We feed a roughly 16% protein ration that is a mix of equal parts of crimped oats, sweet feed, beet pulp shreds and an 18% lactation pellet that is made at our local feed mill (Producer's Co-op in Bryan, Texas). When they first come into the milk room and get up on their milk stands, they get a one-pound coffee can of this feed mix. After they eat that, they get one or two more cans of soaked beet pulp shreds. After everyone is milked out, they go into the barn and eat another pound or two per goat of the feed mix. Right now I'm also feeding them Chaffhaye, which is an ensilaged form of alfalfa, about a pound per goat, in the morning and in the evening, and they have free choice hybrid Sudan hay (a sorghum cane hay). Our does produce anywhere from 4 lbs of milk (first freshener) to 12 lbs of milk (third freshener) per day. (We're on milk test so you can see all the does' production amounts on ADGA Genetics on their pedigree pages). Ours peak within 6-8 weeks of freshening and then begin to wane as show season progresses and they're continually asked to hold more milk in their udders than they ordinarily would. And the summer temperatures also wreak havoc with milk production in south-central Texas. However, when people talk about minimal milk production (to me that would be a half gallon or less a day at a does' peak) this happens because the goats are first fresheners, or they aren't getting enough feed to sustain higher production, or they need to be dewormed, or they have other health-related issues. Regardless of what others may tell you, it has been my personal experience (and the experience of others who have changed their feeding methods after talking to me) that a doe needs roughly 1/2 lb of a 16% protein feed to produce 1 lb of milk, so for a doe to produce a gallon (roughly 8 lbs) of milk they need to consume about 4 lbs of high quality feed. They also need to be encouraged to drink water, as mik is made up of mostly water. We have automatic waterers on all our buckets and the does usually will go right to the water bucket after they're let out of the milk room and "tank up" on water. Caroline


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

My doe that eats the most grain gets about 3.5 lbs of grain a day and produced 14 lbs a day at peak, now about 12 lbs a day. I have to admit that she is a little on the thin side, but not emaciated looking. She's lost about 10-15 lbs since freshening...not sure what is normal, but that doesn't seem like too terrible much, considering her production (this is a full-size alpine). I have a couple yearling mini's doing 7 lbs a day eating 1-1.5 lbs of grain a day. So, I don't think you have to feed THAT much grain. It probably depends what their forage is like, too.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

And my grain mix is only about 11% protein.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Forage quality is huge. My forage is so good right now my girls are flat out turning down alfalfa pellets (picking them out of my mix) and only wanting 1/2-1 lb of oats. And they are producing alot more than a lb a day. Maybe the minis are better at feed conversion than I thought....


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

thanks for all the input, caroline. my goats have been eating a-pellets, good grass hay, and clover since last tuesday. should i gradually put them back on the 15% grain ration? if so, should i continue the pellets, too?

and is there any way that i can prepare my kids (4 months old) to be top milk producers after they are bred? i'm hoping they will better producers than the does.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

They need plenty of alfalfa and clover to avoid metabolic disease. That needs to be the biggest part of the diet. Grain must be in addition to.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Lisa - I'd try to gradually put them back on their grain ration and you should see an improvement in their milk production. Since they need the calcium, continue to offer the alfalfa pellets as well. 

Regarding the kids, make sure they're growthy and in top notch condition. If the genetics are there, you'll see a big difference when the dry yearlings begin to freshen.

Caroline


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

caroline,

for the kids, should i be feeding them a-pellets *and* grain? they love both, but which would be best for future milk production? they're grazing in grass/clover everyday and eating good hay, too.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

We feed our kids an 18% medicated calf starter, a little bit of chaffhaye and lots of the sudan hay. I wouldn't overdo the alfalfa pellets, but you can certainly give them some in addition to their grain. If you're just starting out (and I've forgotten where you are if I ever knew), you may not have issues with coccidia, but for us, feeding the kids a ration that contains a medication for coccidia (either deconquinate or rumensin) is very important. We start them out with about 1/4 of a 1 lb coffee can per kid when they're 4-6 weeks old and by the time they're six months old, they're consuming almost a can apiece. We keep them on that until they freshen.


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## 4toggs (May 13, 2013)

another ? about feeding...does anyone know if milkweed is toxic in hay? (hay bales)


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