# Color Question



## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I have a very light buck kid - cream in front honey in the back. I am wondering if he will stay light.
We have never had a Nubian buck that did not have the black collar and breast plate once they reached breeding age. I sure would like to have something different to look at! 
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Me neither. GE is blonde, he started his black chest about 2 years old and completed it now, you wouldn't think he was the same boy. I have been told that even black bucks have black capes, you just can't see it because they are ummmm...black  Do white Nubian bucklings grow black capes? 

That would be a good question for those with older bucks...do they all have their full black breasts and capes? Vicki


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## MiaBella Farm (Jul 22, 2008)

We have 4 GE daughters and all but one has a black chest! Must be a GE mark or something... 
Still keeping an eye on the 4th daughter to see if she gets the black spot.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No it's not seen in girls. Boys as they age start getting black on their chest and on their withers, the older they get the bigger the chest piece gets and it connects to the black on the withers, making a complete cape by 5. Testosterone maybe? Vicki


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Experience?  Tammy


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think experience is the key-altho that was good for a grin.
Here are 2 bucks in Feb of this year at 9 months old... Colored up all the way around the chest and neck.

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah them are some pure bred nubian billlies....hyserical out here in the woods of east Texas, your buck is only a purebred Nubian if they are those colors, they love them black dorsels, which then of course makes them color up really quickly. Did you know your bucks aren't even able to have kids until they have that color on their chests  My BIL asked me why I would even want a black buck, can he be purebred and be black?

Very well grown boys Lee! vicki


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

My 2 yo Nubian buck has a thin black dorsal stripe, but so far nothing on his chest or shoulders. Hmmmmwill have to double check when I get home.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

He must need more 'experience' !
L


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

:rofl :rofl Lee I thought that had nothing to do with it!
I went out for chores last night and looked at all our boys. Theodon, alpine 1yr old, has and always has had what Lindsey and I consider a vest around his shoulders. Its not solid all the way around and right at the brisket it fades to white. Demi John, also alpine but a wether, got this black caping last yr, so I'm thinking its just sign of maturing. Now on Darius (Nubian), Mercedes boy from this spring, was born with a black cape and white belt (darn kastdemur trait)--or what I call bat wings. I'll keep an eye on his shoulders as he grows. Now Ghengis Khan already has a start on his cape. So that means by the time he's 2 he's gonna lose all that gorgeous red around his shoulders :sniffle. I just love him right now the color he is, course Lindsey says I just look at their coats so I can see which ones I really want to tan :rofl. Tammy


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Well that was for your benefit Tammy~! 

OH wow- are you serious- you cure hides?
We have wanted to learn that but never took time to do it right.
Since we butcher wethers for the dogs to eat we often have glorious skins!
We also have always wanted to learn to do the rabbits as well. 
Just one more learning we have not been able to squeeze in.
L


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## Painted Pony (Apr 12, 2009)

Some of you are so funny! I always figured the cape was similar to the lion's mane, men's chest hair, etc. something that came with maturity in the males.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

HEHEHE...men mature? Sorry couldn't help myself I'll just stick my :ftinmouth now Tammy


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## Painted Pony (Apr 12, 2009)

"Physical" maturity. If we're talking emotional maturity (as she stares out at blubbering young bucks trying to sweet talk the girls, and crowing roosters strutting around the coop) I have NO IDEA when that takes place or how you can identify it.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I have a friend with a solid white Nubian buck. He's a 2 year old and shows no sign of having a darker cape.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks Janie, didn't know anyone to ask. Nubian Talk has had quite a few posts this last week on color, with lots of links. If someone wants to put it all together for 101 they can, I just don't have time right now. I agree with Tim's post on there also  Vicki


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

My Nubian buck is a little over 2 years old. He has the black line, though very thin, down his back. There is a hint of black hair, sort of like a smudge, on his neck. He is a very light bay, almost a red roan, with moon spots. Maybe that smudge will get bigger and darker as he gets older?


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I've had a couple of blonde Nubian bucks. One went into the freezer at a year old. His son I kept till he was two. Neither had any black on them. The rest of my boys have all had black on them. They were either brown or black goats. My GE grandson has gotten more black in his hair as he's gotten older. He is a brown roan with black trim. Kathie


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## Jacquelynn (Dec 2, 2008)

We have a very light blonde almost white buck. Not one black hair on the boy. He is 2. We have had one other boy he was almost a chestnut with white under hair. At 2 he had no black at all. He came from blonde/white lines but different lines than the above buck.

Jacquelynn


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Doris Walter had a couple of pure white Nubian bucks. I saw each of these as aged bucks - neither had a cape. Dr. Luke didn't have a cape either but did have a dorsal stripe.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

So there must be a pattern determiner gene at work here. A solid colored animal may not develop the color change. Does anyone have a reference link to info on that kind of heritability? I am guessing the little guy that made me ask the question will change because he is not a solid colored animal. This has been fun - thanks for all the input everyone- like a visit to your farms!
Lee


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## Jacquelynn (Dec 2, 2008)

I found this really cool article on goat color genetics. 
http://www.cagba.org/Goat_Color_Explained_copy1.pdf
I love studying color genetics! It's so fun. I keep track of the colors of my does and work out possibilities with babies. Just for fun as color is not that important.

Jacquelynn


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

J~ how often can you figure it correctly?
Thanks for that article link. I don't care that much really but the cape on the buck has been so ubiquitous in my herd that I was intrigued by the possibility that there were some without. 
Lee


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I was looking at the 3/4 Nubian 1/4 Boer light red and white paint son of my non-caped Nubian buck. He is 4 months old and just recently he has started "sprouting" a black dorsal stripe and the cross over the withers. He's going to have a cape.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

HHMmm and I was wanting to breed this out of my big 1year old Nubian/LaMancha cross buck that has both the stripe and cape. I also love breeding for color .


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I was talking with a friend the other day about the black capes on Nubian bucks. She says they are called martingales. Kathie


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

I need to take my camera to my buck pen, because I noticed Duke (my funny colored roanish red and white) GE son is starting to get black hair along his chest, shoulders, and withers...a cape perhaps?!?!


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Tyco (my white buck) is almost 2, and if he starts getting a cape, I'd freak! I have seen other Nubian boys without martingales/capes, but not usually brown ones...one buckskin didn't have one (kind of GE colored) eventhough he did have a black face and dorsal stripe and legs. Press is what I'd call a skewbald (bay paint) and he has black on his chest & neck, but he also has white right in the middle of it! I went onto NT to look for the posts you were talking about, Vivki, but my bloodpressure/stress level started to go through the roof while reading through posts, so I gave up! I'll never understand NT...


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## Feathers-N-Fur (Oct 4, 2008)

I don't know for sure with goats, but in other species, white is like a paint over their normal color. So in theory, the white bucks still have their cape, but it is being covered by the white. It wasn't bred out of them, it was just covered by the white.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> it was just covered by the white


What about skin color in relation to this? I know Ty is completely pink skinned. Some of my goats have dark skin under their white patches, some have pink skin. Some of my darker goats are still light skinned. Curious.


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## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

So what's a GE goat? (In Europe it would be Genetically Engineered, but maybe not here  )


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Great Expectation, one of Vicki's bucks:

http://www.lonesomedoenubians.com/bucks.htm


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

I have a doeling that was born tan with honey socks and 4 different color spots. She is now almost 7 moths old very light cream color with just a tad darker socks, and has lost 50 percent of her spots. I am hoping that when shaved you will be able to see her spots but not counting on it as when I pull the hair to the side, it looks like her roots are growing out and the spots was just a dye job. : (


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

Michelle, if you look at the dates on the original posts, you'll see this was started earlier this summer.
They certainly aren't discussing color right now on NT...lol

I have no idea with three of my Nubian bucks because they have all been black. *sigh*
The two brown with white bucks had their black coming in. The one I lost at 8 months old and he had quite a bit of his black already. The other, I'd have to look back at pictures.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

The blonde buck kid I kept this year that made me interested in this topic has darkened all over and is showing a martingale at 5 months old. WHAAAAAAAAA- Just another buck except for that huge wide open escutcheon he is sporting!
He was a darling little Blondie. Next time I will know better and move him out.
Lee

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

Here is 8 month old Buster and he is Nubian/LaMancha, he has dark color and cape,
he was really black when I sold him this fall.

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh good- I am not searching through that many old NT posts! They are discussing genetics again I noticed, just not color!


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Lee, your buckling actually looks more like a light brown. The blonde ones I had that never got martingales were much lighter, like a cream color with no facial stripes.
My new buck who is red and has a very pronounced martingale already looked like that at just a year old. The most interesting goat color change I've ever seen is in one of my doelings. Shamrock was born with a black roan face, but a rich mahogany body. When I clipped her for show this summer, her body looked all black roan. She's still that way now that her hair is grown out. No more mahogany, which is what I put on her papers.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes he was very light while young but now he is pretty much the color of his dam with his ears staying light.
He was retained for his old timey genepool.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

What I have always noticed (i thought) was a Nubian trait was that almost all Nubian's have white ears ,even the % Boers that have Nubian seem to always have white on their ears, I have a high 90s % Boer doe and she has a tiny spot of white around her red ears LOL , I was unaware of the Black cape and stripe on the Nubian bucks .HHMmmm


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Not all have white or frosted ears. 

These are sold, but...

http://stoneyheightsfarm.webs.com/jarlath.htm

and his daughter:

http://stoneyheightsfarm.webs.com/belle.htm ...yes, she's standing on the hood of a car...

and if you go look @ Vicki's site, several of her does have solid ears.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Actually, they are not discussing anything on Nubian Talk. They are "cussing" the purebreds because their Americans are not allowed to be one. Funny thing! They began with a grade or non-papered animal and were encouraged to breed them up to breed standard and allowed to compete against the purebreds in the showring and then call purebred breeders "snobs". Snobs? They must be whiners. Poor babies! Somebody pass them a tissue!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

It's a funny group. I think a lot of their frustration stems from regrets about the prices the kids generate since they are the same amt of care and feeding as purebred. I have to agree there are many wonderful animals that are not in any registry. I have owned quite a few and if you are just selling milk then that is fine but personally with milk prices so low here I have to have kid sales to keep my books balanced. Notice I did not say in the black...just balanced! 
I think maybe they are mistaking rightfully earned pride for snobbery? Or just intimidated by those who have accomplished so much and are so easy with the kudos they receive. This is true in every endeavor. You can give 100 people the same things to work with and the end will be 100 or more different results. So imagine the results when everyone starts with something different (even tho all called Nubians) and all want to be the best measured by an established standard! 
Lee


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## Narrow Chance (Oct 29, 2007)

Tim Pruitt said:


> Actually, they are not discussing anything on Nubian Talk. They are "cussing" the purebreds because their Americans are not allowed to be one. Funny thing! They began with a grade or non-papered animal and were encouraged to breed them up to breed standard and allowed to compete against the purebreds in the showring and then call purebred breeders "snobs". Snobs? They must be whiners. Poor babies! Somebody pass them a tissue!


I set back laughing about all the 'snobs'. Can't find any tissue to pass... they'll have to use thier sleeve.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

They are a pitiful, whiney bunch - need to dial 1-800-WAA-BABY and get off of Nubian Talk!


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

After five years of using Purebred Nubian bucks only, I may finally have my first Purebred Nubian doeling born....out of a Purered Nubian doe I am currenly leasing. Hah! Still haven't found the money or the right Purebred Nubian doe to buy.
The two Purebred Nubian does I had ended up back at square one because of one missing person. :sigh
Neither brings money in this area, so I don't care too much, but the Polled Purebred Nubian base is incredibly small and so I wanted to try and get a Polled Purebred Nubian doe before Rudy decided to kick the bucket on me...or I sell him to a woman in Georgia who wants him. lol More than one would be nice, but I'd be happy with at least one.
Frankly, I wish the AJCA had a program similar to ADGA's. It bugs me taht our Jersey/Norwegian Red crosses end up back in the herdbook at some point...along with all those Holstein crosses and who else knows what. Then again, our family has been breeding registered Jerseys since the late 1800s so I'm a bit of a "snob" I suppose. lol


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

That is the most ironic part of this, those with American does, they aren't using American bucks? Why not if they are so wonderful? When your own marketing (telling new folks to purchase American does and breed up) comes back and bites you in the bottom on an open forum....that is the only reason they get their panties all ruffled up. If you are going to buy or sell American Nubians be honest....like I said on there, I am not fooling myself that no matter how lovely, how high they appraise or win in the shows, Appy and her daughter line I will keep will sell for much less than her purebred herd mates, even if she is better than they are. I didn't make the rules, I sell goats into a market that has been like this for the 30 years I have Nubians. I was just lucky enough to have met people like Roger Shrum (Easy Stream) Tim Pruitt, Dan Moreman and Kurt and Emma Ross who told me the truth and didn't market (lie) to me. when I purchased my first year. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Heh Rett- did you just put Breeze up there? Or have I not been looking! Wow he is a handsome fellow- so wide!
And did he loose any weight in breeding season?
I like a round fellow. He is dreamy! 
Lee


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> will sell for much less than her purebred herd mates,


But maybe not. You don't ask that much for your PB. I am guessing anyone in the know would pay that for Swiss udder on a Nubian :derr
Lee


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

I have thought long and hard about the direction that we are going to go with the goats. I do have some unreg girls hoping to breed up for production, doelings from these girls will most probably be sold for milk use only. The purebreds will be shown as well as milked. I was not under any delusions when I purchased the non REG goats that they would ever be able to be reg as purebred, and I am assuming the whiners were not deluded. Why gripe now after they have purchased or obtained these goats?

I finally got to the point on NT that I had just deleted so many of the whiney american posts that my email started to automatically put them in spam folder then I had to undo that if I wanted to actually read what someone one that wanted to post about other then whining. I really really wanted to post but just chose to keep these fingers silent and not be drawn in.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

My only delusion when cross breeding purebreds and raising grades was that the everyday goat buyer would see the value in the animal itself and not the brown paper of experimental registry. WRONG! 
Lee


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I can't really grump. I think we live in hoe-down USA where most folk just want a good milker. There are some serious breeders, far and few between, within a 20 mile radius, and then it spans out. So here, though the prices are lower Americans sell. I should be able to turn Delaney really quick to a family that wants a milker. She is just a beginning to an end (despite how pretty she is). HOWEVER...NEWFLASH...we will honestly be able to be a part of the snob nob this spring Now to sell those PB doelings that aren't born yet! Tam


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, I'm a PB snob too I guess, eventhough I own grades. If you want to breed a grade up to purebred, there is an open herdbook to do it into, no bitching necessary! Sell your American Nubians and go buy some Munchies. Better yet, just go buy a Munchie buck :laughcry

If the Americans were really that great, I might understand the whining. How many are National Champions? How many are Excellent appraised animals? How many are on the Top Ten list? How many are SG? Then they can ask themselves how many American Alpines _aren't_ those things...Nubians are a younger breed with less consistency, if you want somehting easy to work with, change breeds. Thus the reason I almost never get onto NT, my blood pressure goes up and I can't post those sentiments there without a firing squad! It is like watching an out of control kindergarten class!


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## 2Sticks (Dec 13, 2007)

My 20 mo old buck "Copper" is red with cream spots and a wide white belt. He only has a black spot up on his withers. Doesn't look like he's going to have more than that. 

Tamera


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## Narrow Chance (Oct 29, 2007)

buckrun said:


> Heh Rett- did you just put Breeze up there? Or have I not been looking! Wow he is a handsome fellow- so wide!
> And did he loose any weight in breeding season?
> I like a round fellow. He is dreamy!
> Lee


Yes.. just changed the avatar. Yes.. Breeze is a hunk! He did loose some weight in rut. Still a big boy though. 
Thanks for the comments.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Oh you are so welcome! I remember you mentioned either a judge or appraiser said he was fat and I was lovin it.
Nice looking dude. Our K. buck looks much like your younger one- keep wondering if he will ever fill out but just 18 months. Very 'dairy' as they say hah-me- I call it skinny. He has a huge frame so we shall see. Oh and he is PB- :laughcry see me snobbin>>??
Lee


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## Narrow Chance (Oct 29, 2007)

Snob away! 
I actually like my younger bucks build more than Breeze. Like his kids better too. I loved Breeze's kids.. still do.. but Manny is what I prefer to look at. Doesn't hurt his papers are blue.. :biggrin


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## 2Sticks (Dec 13, 2007)

Oh Rett,
You don't own anything thats papers aren't 'blue' :lol Silly girl! :rofl


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## Narrow Chance (Oct 29, 2007)

I have owned 'the other color' papers though.. :biggrin

Although fine animals... the market wants 'blue'.


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

So I went and took some pics today with my phone (it takes better pics than my camera!! :rofl) While uploading I noticed I had a face picture and a side picture of roughly the same age for 3 different ages for Duke
First are face (4/7/09, then 6/26/09, and 1/1/10)























Then side (4/11/09, 4/15/09, 6/26/09, and 1/1/10)






























I know the baby side pic is the wrong side, but it should work.....
oh wait I found another side....

Interesting to see the color change in his face and what appears to be the development of what could turn into a black cape, but from the front it looks like there won't be any black in his white....


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