# How many? Herd replacements?



## blackthorn (Sep 6, 2008)

Hi 
I'm just wondering how you guys decide which/how many young does to keep each year?? Here are some numbers: you have 20 adult does-230% kidding-does have a productive life of 8-10 years-so that’s around 20 young does born per year and at most you'd be culling 2-5 older does?? How do you possibly decide who stays and who goes?? I hate selling my older girls and I hate parting with what could grow into a spectacular animal :crazy
Any experienced goat keeper like to chime in with how they do it??
Vanessa


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

I am very glad you asked this question, I want to know to. I'm just starting so have not done it yet. Will be doing it this spring. The way I personally see it at this point is that I am trying to breed for improvement. If I have a doe that is not up there with the others in production, growth or other factors I would like to think that I would cull her.That _is_ going to be tough. Can't wait for the experienced ones to comment though. Would love to learn what they do.  Sorry I couldn't help.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2009)

Flip a coin? :rofl

I am thinking when you have been in the game long enough you know what you are looking for in a kid somewhat, but then again I have not had but one goat give birth on my land. 

I plan to keep all does this year and sell the ones I don't want as FF.


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

You have to figure out exactly how many does you can properly care for, then you go from there. I have 16 does to freshen this year and several of them have to go, some are here for milk and never get shown so those go first, then I choose between the 6 first fresheners if they don't meet my criteria then they leave quickly, then I have the GCH does, the 10 year old, and a brood doe (beautiful daughters that are 110% better than herself) that will never leave here. I have one doeling that is beautiful and correct in every way but I just don't like her head, so I will freshen her to see if she will grow on me but if not she is gone. 

So work out what you can take care of, who will never leave, what you can't live without, and who you just don't like. Keep the BEST, and sell or eat the rest....

This is just how I do things.


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

:yeahthat The biggie for me is to keep the numbers where chores are not chores. When you have so many that you just don't have time for them or can't care for them properly then it is time to cut down. I will have 8 freshen this year and have already decided which will stay and leave out of those. I then will look at kids, but don't really want my numbers to be more then 8-10 does at any given time. I am even thinking 6 might be better. So that helps me to choice. If you are hard for me to handle, or just don't fit well here, then you are first to go. I also want those that are staying to be improvement over those that are here, better milkers, better breed characteristics, better everything.
Theresa


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## blackthorn (Sep 6, 2008)

Okay-I'd like to keep all to FF and judge from there too.............but how do you not know they are not a lousy FF and will be a spectacular second freshener?? And how do you decide on cut offs?? Do you just say-right any doe that doesn't ######## will always go, or do you say if I really like her and she has great kids she stays anyhow?
Vanessa


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

There are so many factors that each farm/individual breeder looks for. It mostly depends on what is most important to _you_. Very good questions though. Can't wait for tomorrow when more comments will have been made on this.


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

I totally agree with Theresa...I had too many last year and it became work for me and a huge sore spot between dh and I. This year I have 7 goats total...1 buck and 6 milkers, two of which are already slated to sell. Ideally I would keep every doe kid until she freshens....but that's not possible for me. Some of the kids have obvious faults, some of my yearlings freshened with huge pockets in their udders, etc and those are sold for family milkers. Basically...I only keep a kid who is better than or at least as good as her dam.



> but how do you not know they are not a lousy FF and will be a spectacular second freshener??


If the faults are things like body capacity, slight pocket in foreudder, those things sometimes improve with age. If they have poor feet, winged elbows, pendulous udders..those things don't improve and are a one way ticket off my place.

It costs just as much to feed a good goat as a poor goat...and the good one will pay her way a whole lot better. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and many times I've tried breeding up a really poor doe just because I like her personality and the kids are just as poor.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

What I used to try and do was show all or most of the doelings and keep the ones who did best in the show ring. The I started having more dairy doe kids as I phased out the Boers, so I couldn't keep doing that. This past year, I had more call for fresh does than doe kids. Choosing which of my fresh does to sell was easier. I sold does that didn't have really competitive show udders to people who wanted them as commercial milkers and to a soap maker. I needed to reduce the herd, so I actually sold my top milker. I kept does with the best udder structure. Doelings I've sold, or on my for sale list are those who are younger full sisters of does I sold or sisters of ones I decided to keep. Bottom line for me now is that I still have too many goats. I'm supposed to sell 3 tomorrow. I just got more alfalfa hay today and the bill for it keeps getting bigger. I need to reduce the herd. I just can't bring myself to put bred does on the meat truck, so I'm hoping there will be a demand for fresh does this spring. I now have 30 goats, with kids on the way, and ideally would like a herd or 15-20. Kathie


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

LOL...my planning is a little different. I use show classes and age as a determining factor. 
I dispose of obvious faults at birth...steep rumps, narrow chests, short necks, short bodied kids. Twin doelings? The lesser of the two goes. By day 3, I have a pretty good idea which is the better. Then I'm down to show quality kids. I start selling those kids that I feel will do well in the showring. By the time show season gets here, I generally have it narrowed down to one kid per class, unless there are two that are of the same age and equally as good as the other. Of these two by breeding season, I've made up my mind which one goes and which one stays.

This is the first year that I will have 3 yearling FF Toggenburgs. Of those 3 only one will get to stay after freshening. The udders will be the deciding factor on which one gets to stay. I usually have 1 milker in each class. Yearling, 2yr., 3yr., 4yr.old. Enough to make group classes

LOL...this year ALL the Togg milkers were EX 90 with EX in mammaries. It got a little harder, even after LA, to decide who got cut, but it was possible.

I will have several Obies that won't make the cut in staying here, but they've already got a home to go to, after I pick which one will stay as a yearling milker added to the show string.
Kaye


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You have to give yourself and opportunity to learn about conformation. Getting your hands on lots of goats, looking at lots of goats at shows etc...having appraisal at your home, coming from a livestock background so you know horse flesh or scouring the ADGA appraisal booklet and books ...I love Harvey Considine's old book which is nothing like he judged 

As you freshen your does year after year you will see quality kids coming from both your prepotent bucks but also doe lines. You will see in most herds, more daughters out of certainly lines, easier to spot when they are all similarly named.

So for my farm my replacements come from my prepotent dam line, but then the problem is they are the first to be deposited for the most money, and you have to sell some of these kids to 

I would prefer to freshen all my doe kids, or at least give myself until breeding age at 8 months to make major conformation sales, but that is also unrealistic in that sales of kids shipped to their new homes is the most amount of money. Now if you are in dairy land like we are now, you could keep your kids until about 8 months, breed them, and start selling conformation faults, bred, for some pretty good money....hmmmmm, I think I may have talked myself into something here 

Anyway, my sales seem to be always motivated by money, but each year, you will have the one or two or five  spectacular kids born...two years ago it was Red and Tater, although I let a 4H kid have Red for a project, but to come home later. You just know when they are born they are spectacular....Tater had two identical kids this last year that fit that bill, and yes I sold both of them.

So really it is a question that is personal to each farm. I prefer to raise out 6 doelings, I usually keep or purchase 2 bucklings (well purchase one and keep one of mine) this year I am keeping 2 of mine if born. It's what I have room for, money for, and biggy here milk for, which will still give me alot of milk for soap and milk sales to pay the feed bill.

And I honestly despise raising kids, I hate the whole baby thing passed the birth, the constant smell of milk, my barn clothes smell like sour milk, my long hair and my towels at the sink...my clothes are always covered in tiny feet prints and baby poop, iodine, and green paste from tattooing, so it becomes easier and easier to sell and sell somemore  Vicki


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## blackthorn (Sep 6, 2008)

Yes I'm not a baby raising lover either...........but I still get an attack of the guilt’s when I sell them! LOL I guess there are hard decisions to be made *sigh*
Vanessa


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## laughter777 (Jun 16, 2008)

My herd consists of 1 PB Nubian, 2 RG Lamanchas, 1 MM, and 1 LM/Nub and I am a total newbie here, but my hopes are to keep any purebred Nubian doelings out of my doe, and sell 1 of my recorded grade Lamancha, the other is from Lynn (on here) and is very attached to my husband and us to her so she will probably stay. I am not sure if I will keep my minimancha doe, she was my first and I love her so much, but she is staying so fat, with feeding 3lbs alfalfa pellets per doe, and have no way to separate just her. I purchased a Nubian buckling that I will keep for a year or two (to breed to everyone, except the mini)


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm one of those people unable to put down a baby goat at birth just because it's a buckling or a not perfect doeling. Now, grossly deformed, that would be a whole different thing. Last year, I got to the point of banding everything except out of my best three does and sending wethers for meat at 8-12 weeks old rather than wait till market weight in fall. I think the guy who used to buy up my excess doelings fell off the face of the earth. I haven't been able to reach him this year. There just doesn't seem to be as good a market for doe kids here in Montana as in the South. So, this year I seriously need to do a few different things. Make hubby hold the does when they freshen for some pictures and get a website. Sell some of the doelings at the auction if I don't have orders for them. I love baby goats, but I don't need dozens of them underfoot and I need to make the hay last as long as I can. Kathie


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2009)

goatkid said:


> I'm one of those people unable to put down a baby goat at birth just because it's a buckling or a not perfect doeling.
> Sell some of the doelings at the auction if I don't have orders for them.


You won't humanely put a kid down at birth but you willingly send your kids to the auction? At the vast majority of auctions, animals are not treated well or at least as not nearly as well as they could be. Not to mention they are removed from everything they know, their safe environment, to be manhandled and then sold for meat? And before people start saying how well their auctions treat their goats, save your time as I won't buy it. For a few dollars.... it wouldn't even be worth the time and money you have into them just to raise them to that age.

I just don't get this way of thinking. I am a softie at heart... I euthanize at birth to save them from the scenario you speak of. :sigh

Sara


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"but how do you not know they are not a lousy FF and will be a spectacular second freshener??"

Or third...we had one doe...mediocre at best as a FF. Noty much better as a 2nd. Trotted her out to maybe sell her early in her 3rd lactation and she then blossomed into one of our best milkers.

But how much money did we lose on her waiting for that spectacular third freshening? I cannot afford to keep does that arent paying for their keep from the get-go. Maybe three or four years ago but not now.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes but in a dairy situation you can't expect or want the young FF replacements that we grow out and will keep even if milking 4 pounds because as second fresheners they have milked more than their 2 year old 1st freshening counterparts. So you have to give your replacements credit for the poundage they have even when milking less per day. A dairy also doesn't need to always be raising replacements and in most parts of the country it's cheaper to buy replacements than to grow them....here it means driving into another state though.

Kathie, you have some beautiful does, I saw them at LeeAnn's you are doing your herd a huge disservice. Nobody knows you in reality. The number one thing that happens to folks who can't sell stock is that they either piss off all the old breeders when new  or they are so silent nobody ever knows them. I have said this to at least 5 others on the forum when answering the same exact question. How do I make money with my goats and sell all my kids?

Get a website if you can't show, apparise if you don't show, or if like some your show ciricut is filled with National show placers, this way although you have 2nd and 3rds all the time, we can see those appraisal scores. Look at Birdy, she isn't a GCH, mostly because she was in Shoofly's shadow alot but then I wouldn't do the surgery on her salivary cysts, but she does have good appraisal scores and marketing through her daughters and son etc....so I never have problems selling stock out of her, especially bred to good bucks. Make good decisions based on being able to sell your kids, which means bucks with names.

You have to cull. What I do with kids with problems like Kaye talked about, well doelings...course nubians have more bite, ear problems that you don't have in swiss breeds, but I keep a few folks around who want doelings for free without paperwork. So it's a phone call and they are gone. But yep I kill the boys or doelings with serious faults. You can't make a profit with your goats with pens full of dairy goat kids unsold drinking all your milk and colostrum and taking up all your time you could use for soaping, making cheese and marketing your product (which is your adult does and bucks).

Nothing is more irritating than the green rubber band method of selling bucklings "If someone doesn't buy them they will be castrated" Sorry but if you don't have deposits on the bucklings why aren't they in the freezer to feed your LGD? Or the "I am slashing my prices because I have kids due next week"...or that $500 kid born March of 2008 is now for sale for $150...why not just lower your prices of your kids if you can't fill orders?

There is no way you can put pen to paper and justify selling dairy kids for meat at weaning. Yes for your freezer I get that whole idea, but not for sale.

I learned this at a judges house, and the trip home my husband and I talked about nothing more than why, milking 35 does year round (by hand) on contract, I hadn't seen that the open hole in my whole dairy was the kids I kept, fed colostrum I could sell, milk I need desperatly to fill my order each week....when in reality they were selling for aroud $40 or so. I have only had 4 unprofitable years since, and I don't dairy at all like I used to. I just do it alot smarter. Vicki


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

"TOO MANY GOATS ARE NOT FUN." "SELL THE BEST AND KEEP THE REST." These two statements are my mottos. First of all, too many people are prone to keep too many breeds. Son Tommy has a Nubian, daughter Sunny has a Togg and Mama wants LaManchas. Decide on the breed you like and focus on that one breed. Let Mama, Tommy and Sunny all raise the same breed - give the children each a kid of your favorite breed. They can have something "different" without having a different breed.

Cull all kids for conformation faults. Keep replacement does from kids that are structurally correct. Eat or sell the rest. Does that don't freshen with good mammaries, those who have chronic health problems and those who have difficult personalities don't stay. Here, all goats are on probation until 3 years old. After that, they have a permanent place in the herd.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

This is a very informative thread. I am glad someone asked these questions.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

I now just have the 4 dairy does,2 LM and 2 N/LM mix, I will always have the 2 LM till they die as I just cant get rid of these 2 pets but they are what I want in a dairy goat as confirmation,size and wonderful taste and quantity of 1 gal. of milk per day each . The 2 doelings are from breeding to N last year and I did get my splashy big doeling with ears that I have always wanted but she's wild and unsociable and a solid brown shorter doe that looks LM ..... I will see what these FF kids look like and also how the udder looks and what they produce and IF they are up to my 2 LM , then I may keep 1 but if not they will be sold.
I am into large (deer body) goats, milk production,confirmation and health , so I cull heavy .. including the Boer herd.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki, thanks for the compliment in the does I sold LeeAnne. Arabella actually went best Jr Nubian in one ring as a kid, but wasn't able to win as a yearling and I didn't show her as a 2 year old because I have better. So that must mean I have some really great goats. I know my goats are looking much better each year. I just compare my goats to Saada and want to be where they are at now. 
I did sell two of the doelings along with a buckling yesterday. I took less for them than I usually do, but I feel better doing that than selling them for meat. They have alot of pasture and browse where they went and a big barn.
As for the meat goats, we have a buyer who comes through here and the goats can be loaded directly on his truck. It sounds like it would be better to sell any wethers/culls directly to him. I think I need to toughen up. I've never been able to bring myself to kill a goat. I've always had my friend's son do it when I wanted meat, or the vet in the case of euthanasia. Kathie


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## Daniel Babcock (May 28, 2008)

Great thread!!!

Thanks to all who have and continue to teach me! :biggrin :biggrin :biggrin


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

I agree with Tim's statement on having too many breeds, especially when you begin. After you've been in goats a while ~more than several yrs.~ then, if you've done your homework you should be able to do justice to more than one breed.

:rofl I have 1 breed, technically-Toggenburgs. Obies & Saanens as *toys*. I have a very good mentor in the Saanens, so he keeps me on track there. Obies? I just like the color and the improvements made to the breed and enjoy a challenge! Either of those two breeds could go quickly here...but Toggenburgs will be here forever.

LOL...sorry, Vicki but if a doeling gets past the 5 day mark here, she ain't free! I *MIGHT* place a well bred, structually correct buckling, BUT, I'd want it in a herd that I wouldn't mind if he came back here for some use or to be collected. And I don't have unreg./reg. prices! They need to be correct to have my herdname on them.
The Obies that have a home?, are going back to the breeder. Now, I do have a dairy that will BUY any of my FF that *I feel* won't fit in the showstring. Other than that...they make good fertilizer. I don't like the taste of goat meat, don't have a dog to feed them to, and the one time I gave a goat away-it came back to bite me in the rear! 
Kaye


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

A judge told me her way of deciding who to keep --- First, they decide on a number. Say 15. Then they write all the does names down on the white board in order of best to worst. Then they draw a line under #15, and everyone below is sold, period.

It certainly gets harder as your quality gets higher. I'm going to have to sell a number of really nice does this year in order to be able to keep any kids. It's tough. 

Bucklings only stay if they are deposited, or out of some of the top notch older does since I always have people calling later in the spring for bucks. FF boys are put down at birth unless I have someone local who will pick them up the day they are born or they are deposited beforehand. It's just not worth it for me to mess with them. They take up room, eat milk, cost me in vaccines and worming, and cocci meds.... they're a money pit and a drain on your energy.

Tim is right -- too many goats aren't fun.

Tracy


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

LOL...sorry, Vicki but if a doeling gets past the 5 day mark here, she ain't free!
............

Na, it's at birth, you know faults when you see them early. Vicki


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## chewie (Jul 26, 2008)

i also thank those who have knowledge here for sharing it. this will be my first kidding, and trying to decide this stuff will be tricky. i know i don't want a large herd, so that means i'll have to be very 'stingy' on who stays. its hard for me yet not knowing how to see a good one/bad one very well, esp as a very young kid. its the little things that make a big diff. that only experience brings!


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

After you raise goats for a few years ... you just know as soon as 2 months if you have an exceptional goat as they just excel in the " Look " you want in your mind for your perfect goat and these goats are few, however time and work will tell if the goat works out to your mind of perfection and the goats confirmation to breed type. It's fun and surprises to see how your breeding work out , Don't settle for less, keep your best and breed to the best you can find.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2009)

Bella Star said:


> After you raise goats for a few years ... you just know as soon as 2 months if you have an exceptionalgoat...


Or as soon as 2 days. 

Sara


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## chewie (Jul 26, 2008)

i think its going to be difficult when they are so young. i am starting to pick out good built adults, but how to see a good baby?


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

It's harder with babies. Especially when you're talking show quality since kids don't have an udder. You can't even always tell by showing them how they will be as adults. I've managed to finish two does. The first, Angel (Saanen) did very well as a young kid, going GCH a couple of times. She was a nice yearling and two year old, but didn't have what it took to beat older does to earn GCH. I finished her as a three year old. Blossom, my grade La Mancha, didn't earn any blue ribbons as a kid. She was raising La Boers as a yearling, so I didn't show her that year. She did well as a 2 and 3 year old and I finished her at three. She also took best udder in one show. I had a daughter who is the granddaughter of both these does who I had high hopes for. She has good dairy character, but only a commercial quality udder - lots of milk, but not the high, tight udder her granddams had. I had a couple of Nubian kids that went GCH. One even went on to earn best Jr. doe. That one never conceived. The other had kids and is a nice doe, but didn't have a tight enough medial to do well against adult competition. Now, if you're just looking to select good family milkers, that's easier. You still look for dairy character, good spring of rib, nice topline, good angulation to the legs, good pasterns, etc. and also want doelings out of dams that are good milkers. Kathie


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## chewie (Jul 26, 2008)

anywhere with photos of very dairy, very young kids?? i am not a showing person, just want to raise good soild home dairy goats.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Here ya go -- I still have this girl too ;-)










And here she is as a very immature yearling  LA 88 VEEE










Tracy


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

What a pretty doe! Flashy coloring, hmmm? Me thinks I like those big Alpines that you grow, Tracy!


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

LOL...OMG, IT'S an OB! :really And a very beautiful one at that!  Just kidding,Tracy...I KNOW it's an Alpine...but dang I'd love to cross some of that into my OBIES!

Do you see the resemblances in the kid pic and the doe pic? topline, level rump, angle to the rear legs, the long neck, and the square set to the rear feet? All easy to see in a young kid.
Kaye


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## Daniel Babcock (May 28, 2008)

Thanks Tracy that is helpful.

What a gorgeous goat! 

I was once told by a breeder, that kids sometimes grow out of proportion, that is to say, their front grows giving them them uphill appearacne then their back grows giving them a downhill appearance. If this is the case wouldn't it be difficult to determine some conformation.

Or is this just a myth!

Thanks.


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

What a pretty doe Tracy! Thanks for sharing those pictures. I think pictures help when you are trying to learn, at least they do for me.
Theresa


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## ChristinaF. (Dec 2, 2008)

Wow, absolutely lovely goats. That baby is beautiful.

Christina


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## shawhee (Jun 28, 2008)

Tracy,
Nice looking doe! And yes the pictures do help - I think what they are saying Daniel is if you have strength in the topline; feet; leg set; overall structure that it will carry over to the adult. Now if that baby was weak in the loin and was hocky as a baby - I dont think you would be able to have her grow into a doe that did not possess those problems. I know in horses yes they grow uneven and sometimes my babies are running down hill as a long yearling. But by the time they are two to two and a half they are back to being level. Not sure if that happens in goats or not. LOL I hope someone says yes as I have a beautiful doe that I need to grow an inch in the front to be more uphill/level.

Shawna


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

Tracy, as always when I see pics of your Alpines I drool! Thanks for the visuals. Really helps me learn!


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Thank you all for the compliments  That is Hummingbird -- a Snowbird daughter. Let's hope she continues in her mama's ways! She is much improved in udder over Birdy, so we'll see. I see similarities in them as far as taking a while to mature and fill in the long frame.

Kaye, there be no Obies in the woodpile ;-) Half my herd is now this chammy color! It's getting to the point that it's hard to tell them all apart, lol. You can sure tell the difference in heads though -- they definitely don't have the wide, triangular shape that the Obies do.

This is another yearling, ShowTime -- her and Hummingbird switched the first 2 spots all year. Personally - I like ShowTime better. The one thing I'd like to do on her is to shorten the rear pasterns a bit, but otherwise, I love her to bits.










And just to go to extremes - here is 2 year old 200# plus Maxine. Max milked 12# on a month early abortion last year, so she really isn't in prime shape here. But you can see her dairyness none the less. Yes, this color pops up a LOT in my herd.









As far as kids growing out of balance -- maybe?  I tend to obsess and pick them apart anyhow - but usually it's the kids that tend to stay even throughout their growth that I end up liking the most. The one thing I cannot stand is hockiness. (Guess I'll never breed draft horses!) It irritates me greatly -- even though that yes, once they are milking, the udder will spread their legs -- but you will see it again as soon as they are milked out. Spread toes as a kid is also a ticket out of here. Head and ears I will give some leeway to if I like the rest of the goat enough. Any bite problems are culled as well.

Tracy

Tracy


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Now that's a nice doe, and huge! Looks like she needs a saddle. :O Beautiful.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:lol Keep it up, Tracy, and I'll be flying in one of those bucklings to upgrade my Obies! :rofl

I know what it is...it's the steroids! ( I can pick on Tracy, because she KNOWS I know better!) Can you imagine, an *idiot* at a show actually had the brass kahunas to question if I used STEROIDS?? :mad Yeh, RIGHT!! I use steroids and still have does breed/kid/& milk?? NOT EVEN!! THAT really ticked me off! Especially since, you could TELL their goats got no care at home or at a show for that matter!
*It's HOURS and HOURS of work, feed, right management, coccidia treatments, wormings, and breeding!* Yeh, I'd like nothing more than to sit on the couch and eat bon bons, but it don't happen with does of that caliber! You get *THAT* caliber of doe by hard work and long hrs. spent in the barn, as most of us *show people* know! 
Stepping off that soapbox!

Way to go, Tracy! Beautiful does!
Kaye


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

Sorry if this sounds stupid, but what is "hocky" or "hockiness"?


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

The width between the hocks. If they are close together, it's considered hockiness or hocky. You want width between the hocks, udders or not.
Kaye


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"It's getting to the point that it's hard to tell them all apart, lol. "

No kidding...we only have four of that color alpines and I can still hardly tell them apart. I have pheonix figured out but only because she has two different colored eyes!

I am really excited to see Showtime since we have her daughter here


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Beautiful examples Tracy.  Thankfully I can still tell mine apart because 1. I don't have that many....yet. And 2. They all look different. I am benefiting by this thread and learning a lot. Thanks everyone for your great posts. :biggrin


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Beautiful does, Tracy! Now y'all can't tease me that we can't tell our Saanens apart! LOL I really do love the coloring. Lots of consistency in your girls too.... and at the level of quality, you must be doing soooo many things right!


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## KingsCoGoatGuy (Dec 20, 2008)

Awesome looking does Tracy. The color isn't the only reason I really want a buck from your herd.


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## chewie (Jul 26, 2008)

thanks alot, this helps big time! to see a good baby then the same one grown up, wonderful! oh my that is one big gal in that last pix! wow, real eye candy here.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

She's a BEAUTY! big,long,level and much more


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## Leo (Mar 10, 2008)

Beautiful does!!! It's so nice to see the progression from doeling to doe. Thank you.
Megan


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Kaye, I'd be happy to send you a buckling -- Heck, I'll haul one to nationals for you ;-)
I don't even care if you feed him steroids! :rofl

LeeAnne, you better hold on to that Showy girl. I think she is going to be one of the hot ones next year. I loved those eyes of Phoenix -- I've never had it before, but I'd love to.

Maxine is a force unto herself, lol. She has a couple of faults that stand out to me - but she also has some qualities that are VERY hard to come by -- mainly strength, bone and stature. She is a bit rough over the shoulders, and her rear feet need to be tighter -- but her attributes and her udder (fabulous) have kept her here for now.

I'd like to show you one more picture of one of my best doelings this year. She is about 4 weeks old here I think - she was a late born kid. This is Pensive - she is out of the same dam as ShowTime.










Please ignore her HUGE milk goiter :lol She won her class every time out this year, but couldn't pull off a win against the very nice dry yearlings that were out there. THIS is a kid that I have a lot of hopes for. I'll put up some comparison pics after she freshens, and we can see if she gets to stay here or not! It was commented on just how dairy she was - even though she was my smallest doe - she had the most spacing between her ribs and the flattest.

Tracy


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## ChristinaF. (Dec 2, 2008)

Wow Tracy, she is beautiful!! I hope this isn't a dumb question, but what is a milk goiter? :?

Christina


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks Christina -- don't be silly, not a dumb question at all. See that huge lump in front of her collar -- behind/under her jaw? That's a milk goiter. One of the best explanations of it is here - http://www.goatbiology.com/milkgoiter.html

I have kids with them every year. It's no big deal, and they go away after weaning.


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Wow! What a very nice example! Thanks for that. It definitely helps!


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## KingsCoGoatGuy (Dec 20, 2008)

Tracy, at what time do you find your kids loose their goiters?


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## ChristinaF. (Dec 2, 2008)

Thank you Tracy. That was very helpful....I'm just thankful to be learning so much!

Christina


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh Alex, I dunno  I guess probably 2-3 months after weaning at the most. I don't really remember any lasting until breeding age. It depends on just how big they were. The fastest growing (piggiest) kids are the ones that get them the largest.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Poor Tracy, Kaye is going to turn her Alpines into Obies, and I am going to turn one into a Nubian  Vicki


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Poor Tracy, Kaye is going to turn her Alpines into Obies, and I am going to turn one into a Nubian  Vicki


LOL, no kidding! I know that someday, someone will want one *just *to be an Alpine!! :lol :lol


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## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

Tracy
I wonder if one of them could be washed with really hot water & shrink & become a Nigerian Dwarf . You do have spectacular does!


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Hey! We are keeping them pure and unadulterated here!

And they are really growing on us


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

A breeder that I respect told me that shw does not wait until the kids hit the ground to start deciding who to keep. She already has a general idea based on the Dam. The others...well she would like at least one kid in each show class so she picks the best for that and f course after 3 - 5 days she can see if something hit the ground that is just so mice she has to keep. I did that last year and was very happy with my choices. Of course, here in TN the market for Nubians is huge, I could have sold 20 more kids easy. I actually ended up selling one that I wanted to keep, got hit up on a day that my son found out he needed 4 new tires on his truck! Many of the folks just want a healthy doe kid to raise on the homestead for milk, so if the neck is a little short, or not as wide thurl to thurl it is okay. We have a very large number of folks much like my family, all about raw milk and sustainable farming.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Thank you, LeeAnne....I have some hope! :lol :lol :lol

Paula, I would surely hope that ALL of us as breeders do that! And if you have a doe that you really don't want to keep kids out of -- then why do you have her? 

I know that I certainly know beforehand which doelings will NOT be for sale, and which will. Now, I may change my mind after I see them, because as we all know - ALL breedings don't end up like you think they will. Or maybe a doe had twin or triplet doelings. Or maybe someone just offers me enough money, or the truck needs a repair ;-)

FF kids are almost always up for grabs. And - some of my best does have come from FFs, so it may be a heck of a deal. It's a gamble I take that my FF will live long enough to make me more doelings. 

It really comes down to the fact that you simply HAVE to have a number in your head that -- your barn can fit, your finances will allow, and that you have time to care for properly. Going over that number is what burns people out, financially and emotionally.

I have some tough decisions to make myself this year, and it means some of the older does I have are going to have to go in order to make room for young girls. Since I can justify keeping each and every one of them - it's going to be hard.


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

"Paula, I would surely hope that ALL of us as breeders do that! And if you have a doe that you really don't want to keep kids out of -- then why do you have her? "

I think she means for that year...I kept twin dowelings out of one of my best does last year, but have decided to not keep any this year...unless of course one knocks me off my milk stool cuz she's so nice....LOL... 

I agree that you have to have a head count that you can afford to feed and have room to properly shelter and time to take care of first and foremost.

Paula


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes but being new if you don't appraise or show how do you descern between a good kid or not? That is the question. Vicki


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Yes but being new if you don't appraise or show how do you descern between a good kid or not? That is the question. Vicki

Excellent point. I'm facing just that issue this year. I definitely have newbie eyes for conformation... But I'm working with very small numbers so far, so I have some room to "overkeep" this year anyway. 

SO I'm looking at what resources I can tap into- how can I become more educated, and what is available to me to get that education and help until I am much better at it? 

I keep going back and forth to the LA book and trying to use that to look critically at my animals. Thats the first thing. Getting someone with skill to look at them too would be awesome. If I couldnt arrange that in person, then at least posting pics for a critique here might be an option. Looking at other herds and asking questions and tips and tricks is another resource, most of us can find a breeder within a day trip that would work with us and has the reputation and breeding stock we want to emulate. SO when picking up purchased babies, I hope my sellers dont mind questions! Good ones rarely do. 

But I think that shows and LA are going to be the richest experiences for learning, so I'm trying to make the committment to participate. I attended my first shows last year as a spectator. I was amazed at how much I took in- the judges teach as they place! Or at least I took it as teaching, as they explained and contrasted and compared animals. I just put in for time off for three shows this year so far- Harrison, Little Rock and Springfield, all in May and June. My goal is to make all of them, but its still uncertain if I can do all three. I want to exhibit at least two. Working on getting LA arranged too. 

I need this- not only to get the points (I hope!) or scores as marketing and planning tools, but to learn from the experiences. I need the education- and this is just the start! I would like to do DHIA but I know that this year I'm biting off more than I can chew to deal with it, so I am going to move that goal back a year or two. One of the shows does have a one day milk test and I hope to work that in for several does to see if they can meet that challenge. 

I think theres a good opportunity here for a smart entrepuneur(?sp) -make affordable videos on how to evaluate animals at different stages of development. So that even the rankest beginner can watch, go outside, look and run their hands over their animals and "get it". Explain why each trait is important and how to rank it. Show the LA Pic then cut to a variety of animals themselves that really illustrate the points. Good ones and bad ones ( hey, I have a couple that you could use as negative examples too, got a great example of blown teats on one girl. LOL).


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## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

LMonty said:


> Excellent point. I'm facing just that issue this year. I definitely have newbie eyes for conformation... But I'm working with very small numbers so far, so I have some room to "overkeep" this year anyway.


I kept more kids then I intended to, figured I'd sell some after they freshened....then they all looked good to me. I had linear appraisal- my lowest appraising 1st freshener was an 87 & the doe who bit me in the ring at Little Rock who I put for sale appraised a 90. Now I know I have to either sell all kids this year or part with some of my adults to keep some kids......& it's really hard to part with some that I'm really attached to! That to me is the hardest part of raising goats


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

Yes but being new if you don't appraise or show how do you descern between a good kid or not? That is the question. Vicki


Exactly, my first year of breedings they all just looked so cute...LOL I wanted to keep them all...luckily I am good friends with 3 Judges so I hosted a goat club meeting and had about 25 breeders here including one of the judges and I asked lots of questions and was very open to suggestions.

Now of course I show a lot and do LA so that helps me choose. Reaching out as a new person to other breeders really helped me and continues to help me with every aspect in this venture. 

Paula


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