# drawing blood



## nikita (May 17, 2010)

Am going to try drawing blood as the farm call by the vet is just too expensive. What size needle do most of you guys use? Any tips or words of wisdom? Thx


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

This might help you some...It did me for my first time!

http://goatconnection.com/articles/publish/article_151.shtml

I generally use a 22 Ga. But have used small and bigger......Bigger isn't better IMO 

Lynn


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yea, mine are 22 also. 

As for pointers (ha) I just find the esophogus, and press my thumb down beside it towards the lower neck and usually you will see that vein pop up. Then remember to poke the needle in at an upward angle, not straight in, that way you have a better shot at staying in the vein. Also, goat veins can be surprisingly tough, it takes a good sharp poke to get through the wall. Have a helper hold the head up for you. Fat goats are harder, so do a thinner doe first. The fat hides the vein. The veins can be very big, like a garden hose, or quite a bit smaller like the size of your pinky.


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Until you get the hang of it, I highly recommend shaving the neck. It makes it much easier to see the vein. Make sure to not inject any air into the vein. Doing so will cause an air embolism and death. Make sure to wipe down the spot you are sticking with alcohol or some type of cleaner. Insert the needle at a 45° angle with the bevel up. When you get the blood you need, withdraw the needle, and put pressure on the spot for a few seconds.


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## birchridge (Jul 13, 2009)

:yeahthat All of the above 

I use a 20 ga. needle. 

I put the goat on the milk stand and then have a helper gently hold the head to my left. I do have one buck that I have a hard time finding the vein. Any tips for drawing blood on bucks?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Draw the bucks when they are not in the rut. Those swollen necks are a pain.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I use legs on the bucks. 

I use 20 g needle...I actually feel the larger the gauge the easier, but I am used to drawing blood.

It would be difficult to get an air embolism from the small amount of air in a small syringe.

Break the seal on the syringe by pulling back and resetting the plunger before poking the goat-just makes it easier to start filling the syringe (on smaller veins than what you will have with a goat jug, the pressure from the plunger being stuck can collapse the vein).

And where did you find the "degree" sign Rachael?! I can never find that one.


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

It was on my phone, lol. I think you have to use the char map on the computer to get it. 
I always include the air ebolism warning because it's just good practice. It can be taken off if ya want. =)


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Lol, I have no authority of what is or isn't here...and sure it's a good thing to know. Plus, if you take it off, then what I said won't make any sense.  Definitely if someone was going to give their goats IV fluids or something, it might help them think to prime the line first! That much air might be a problem.


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Lol, ya. And.. here ya go ° .. the degree symbol.  I found it on the char map. If you push the "alt" key and while holding it down, you push in 0176 on the keypad, then let it go, you get the degree symbol.


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## nikita (May 17, 2010)

dance: THANKS for all the tips. Have just ordered red top tubes from Christine, so will be drawing in a few days. Will let you know how it goes. Ruth


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I didn't know you could do it on the leg. Good to know! I'm glad the amount of air in the syringe isn't that dangerous. I always worry about that.


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## birchridge (Jul 13, 2009)

Nancy, I need a lesson on how to do it in the leg, pretty please


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Larger gauge needles are less likely to cause hemolysis in the blood sample. Hemolysis is when red blood sells are destroyed. This will completely skew blood chemistries. It also colors the serum portion of the blood used for many tests. I prefer larger gauges but there is little need of using larger than an 18.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I simply use whatever 3cc syringes and needles we have, for dog vaccines or the box I bought for practically nothing when people sell out  The trick for me is to have someone lift the head of the goat nearly straight up.....when I have to do it alone I do ears on my bucks....now kids, I have the worst time doing kids, for G6S of the bucklings this last late fall, I used their umbilical cords as they were born.

Yes, shave your first ones, and have help. Vicki


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

nikita said:


> dance: THANKS for all the tips. Have just ordered red top tubes from Christine, so will be drawing in a few days. Will let you know how it goes. Ruth


 Hi Ruth! I'll mail those out to you tomorrow (Friday 2-3-12)
Thanks
Chris


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

We just drew blood for the first time. I had a helper hold the head up and used my left hand on the neck to put pressure on the vein so it would pop out. I used an 18 Ga. needle and a 5cc syringe. It was every bit as easy as everyone made it sound!! Thankfully! 
I am trying to figure out how to use the needle holder without making a mess, though.


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

How do you draw blood from the leg? Front or back leg?

I have two, young, slender Lamanchas I can NOT find a vein on! Did my Alpines just fine but have tried several times on those Lamanchas and no luck. My vet wants $30 per goat to do the blood draw (testing fees not included)- don't wanna do that.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

what needle holder Michele?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Agreed.........have someone hold the head up and to the side that you are not drawing on. Assuming you're right-handed, pinch of the vein (it will be in the "dip" to the left or right of the esophagus), you can then tap it with your index finger of the right hand so you have a feel for where it is, then close your eyes and insert the needle at an upward angle. LOL! Just kidding, don't close your eyes, but that's really what I wanted to do. This was my first time doing it and I got it the first time on every try. I use an 18g needle because sometimes that blood seems rather thick!! Alcohol before and after (for the doe, but for you, too, if you so choose). :biggrin

Good luck! You can do it!!!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Good one Cindy!!!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Cindy :biggrin

Linda I think she means the butterfly needle


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Lots of good advice here and I agree with most of it.

One doe is always harder to find vein on here. By chance she was being a royal PITA and running around head butting once when I wanted to draw her. It was so much easier to find her vein that time! Come to think of it, my veins pop out after hard work too, so duh... now I'll instigate a big play session and do blood draws after, as long as its only for pregnancy or something that wouldn't have the chemistry affected.

Also I rarely have help, and almost never "good" help. I can do some does using my knees as a stanchion and bending over, but I get a headache after doing more than one. And the milk stand just never works for me, they fidget and press the part of the neck I need thru the stanchion.

So I lock the stanchion closed. Then cross tie them to the stanchion, but their head is outside it. Hard to explain. Mostly works. I have one that always tries to climb on me and climb the stanchion. I take a leash and use it as a "belt" around the front edge of her withers and under the milkstand bench. Works like a charm.

Necessity is the mother of strange inventions...

I mostly use a 22 gauge, but as Vicki said, what ever is handy or I have the most of sometimes. I do find they protest a bit more with an 18, so that's a last resort here. A 25 they barely notice. I use a lot of short ones (1/2-5/8") for other stuff like SQ's, but for blood draws I like 1"


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

I'm amazed that you don't get a lot of hemolysis with a 25. A 23 is the smallest we ever use for humans, even in that "little" butterfly. Even on babies and old pople. Goat blood cells must be smaller. However......people can be a bigger pain in the pitut if you have to call them at home and tell them to come back in the morning fasting because the blood was hemolyzed and we have to redraw. You will WISH you only had goats to draw!!!!! We take no undue chances of that happening!


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm a new at blood drawing too. The first time I had help to hold the heads up, this was much easier! Thanks Lynn! Anyways, I have done it by myself since then and though not easy it can be done. I clip the goat to the fence, as tight as I can, bend in front of them, make your non-dominant hand like a V with index finger and thumb and start at the bottom of the throat, you can push upward to where the vein is and push in with your thumb to push out the vein. 
This probably makes a lot more sense in my head 
I use a 20 gauge needle.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Only once did I get much hemolysis with a 25. I think if you let it fill rather than "pull" on syringe much, that helps.

Once in awhile I get just a tinge of maybe-imaginary-pink to the serum. If it was for a chemistry panel, I probably wouldn't use 25 just in case. But most of my draw are for preg, CAE etc and its been fine for that. When I'm working alone, I'll take anything that will help with the goat's cooperation 

Also, take your time filling the tube, don't force it or you will get hemolysis.

I meant to add that I find it easier to do as low on the neck as I can. Less movement or something, I find it easier to do efficiently.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Yes, I use my thumb to hold off for jugulars also. And I typically will hold off for a few seconds, let go, then hold off again, to see/feel that vein pop and (more likely) watch it disappear.

I have drawn on both the front and the back leg. The front seems to be easier with a goat, just due their temperament and ability to kick easier with the back.

I am going to try to describe this, but I'm sure it is much easier to have someone show it in person. Also try Google searching for cephalic or lateral saphenous blood draw in dogs, as it is pretty similar. The vein on the front leg is called the cephalic vein, and the one on the leg is the lateral saphenous (there is a medial saphenous as well, on the inside of the rear leg, but I've not tried this one on a goat). You will likely need a helper with both of these draws. Both veins are more superficial than the jugular, so easier to see, but smaller. A 20g or 22g needle would probably be best (18g will work, but won't be as easy). Shaving may help see the vein better, especially with them in their winter coats, and rubbing alcohol helps the vein stand up better and pushes the hair down too. 


Cephalic draw: 

The restraint is a little more difficult in a goat than a dog, since the goat will not "sit" like a dog. With restrainer straddling goat and the goat backed into a corner, they will hold the head with one arm by either encircling it from beneath or leaning over the goat and pushing it into their leg. The other hand will hold the vein off for the person drawing. With the thumb on the inside of the leg, grab just behind the elbow to hold off then "roll" toward the outside and hold. This can get pretty tiring if the person has to do it a long time. The fingers behind the elbow hold the leg out and keep it from jerking back. The vein closer to the elbow will be running parallel to the leg, but in goats it quickly splits into a Y. You can draw before the split or after, but if you blow the vein down low, you will have to go higher, so I've always started lower. To stabilize the leg and keep the vein from rolling away, hold the leg and use the thumb of your non-dominant hand along side the vein, then draw with your other. Insert the needle, then use the fingers of your non-drawing hand to hold the syringe together with the leg, so it is less likely to come out if the animal moves. Since these veins are smaller, if you create too much suction, the vein may collapse and make the blood flow stop. If that happens, you can try pumping the leg. 3cc syringes are not likely to cause this, but larger ones might.


Saphenous draw:

Restrain the goat in a stanchion or hook its collar to the fence. Restrainer stands next to goat with you on the other side. They lean over the goat and hold the vein off on the backside of the stifle joint. There is no need to "roll" this vein. The vein runs over the tendons just above the hock, at a 45° (thanks Rachael! btw, that only works with the number pad, not the numbers at the top of the keyboard) angle to the leg above it. This vein tends to be more rolly than the cephalic, so stabilize it with your thumb also. As soon as you poke, the goat will probably kick and blow the vein. lol. But, I have done it successfully occasionally. I have even made the goat lay down on her side for the restraint, which makes it easier for the restrainer/blood drawer, they don't kick as much, but it's more stressful for the goat....they get over quickly though.

Maybe I should make a Youtube video this weekend. I've got to do my CAE testing, since I didn't do it last weekend. I would need to find someone to video tape me though...hmmmm. I'll let you guys know if I do!

Another thing that helps avoid hemolysis is when you are putting the blood into the tube...if you have a small gauge needle, switch it for a larger one before putting the blood into the tube, so that it is not being sucked too hard through a small needle. Also, how clean the stick was will determine if you cause any hemolysis. Hemolysis is not important for CAE or pregnancy tests.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

I have wished so many times that we could just sit them on their rumps like sheep.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Linda Myers said:


> I'm amazed that you don't get a lot of hemolysis with a 25. A 23 is the smallest we ever use for humans, even in that "little" butterfly. Even on babies and old pople. Goat blood cells must be smaller. However......people can be a bigger pain in the pitut if you have to call them at home and tell them to come back in the morning fasting because the blood was hemolyzed and we have to redraw. You will WISH you only had goats to draw!!!!! We take no undue chances of that happening!


Try getting people to bring their dog back in fasting...


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

I use a 20 gauge 3/4". Those long needles look like that could stab something you don't want stabbed.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Yeah, but does the dog sue you when they end up in the hospital because it failed to show up fasting the next morning?

True...we rarely have to tie anybody up to draw their blood.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Ok, now this thread has gone to the dogs? :rofl


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

:rofl


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Is it possible there is inconsistency in sizing of needles - or difference between human needles and animal needles? I use a 22 gauge 1" needle from TSC. It is certainly much larger than any needle they've ever used on one of my human babies, and looks larger than anything ever used on me. I bought the kit from Biotracking and the big needles were way to large for my minis. I made a huge mess of it. Even the 20s at TSC look pretty fat.

Also curious how you all disgard your sharps?


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

I keep a plastic jar to put the sharps in. I plan to beg the doctor's office or vet's office to put it in their biohazard box for me.


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## LSP Farm (Dec 4, 2011)

I use a 20g needle with a needle holder, when you hit your mark you press the tube in and it fills with blood! It beats trying to get a plunger back and having to transfer blood. 
Unless you have a fearless holder I would recommend not taking on the front leg. I've drawn blood off of thousands of dogs in my lifetime and my husband was still not brave enough to keep his hand that close, it's tricky. The neck is much smoother sailing.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

When we got the starter kit from Biotracking, it had red topped vials, needles, and a needle holder- like they use when taking our blood. Anyway, tried it on the first goat, and I got enough blood in the vial, but it went all over me too. It was a mess. So I switched to just using the syringe and then putting it in the vial. That went really well and no more mess. I guess I don't need to fix what isn't broken and be happy to pull blood that way.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Linda Myers said:


> Yeah, but does the dog sue you when they end up in the hospital because it failed to show up fasting the next morning?


There's one reason to stick with animals. Their humans do occasionally sue for things, but not like in human med.



Linda Myers said:


> I keep a plastic jar to put the sharps in. I plan to beg the doctor's office or vet's office to put it in their biohazard box for me.


The last vet clinic I worked in, would take those, but we charged a fee for disposal, depending on how much was being disposed of.

A needle is a needle, there's no such thing as "human needle" vs. "animal needle".



LSP Farm said:


> I use a 20g needle with a needle holder, when you hit your mark you press the tube in and it fills with blood! It beats trying to get a plunger back and having to transfer blood.
> Unless you have a fearless holder I would recommend not taking on the front leg. I've drawn blood off of thousands of dogs in my lifetime and my husband was still not brave enough to keep his hand that close, it's tricky. The neck is much smoother sailing.


Yep, drawing from the jugular is the easiest for beginners...there were a few that I couldn't get here and there, so I used a leg instead, or I just felt like trying it out on a goat just to see.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Wow. It has a rubber boot over the inner needle, right? That stops blood from coming out until We slide the tube onto it. It could be that the pressure inside the jugular vein just pushes it on through. I know of no way around that. 

Some people prefer to use a syringe. That's ok. Just get the blood then stick the needle into the blood tube stopper and let the vacuum pull the blood into the tube. Just don't dwadle about it because the blood will begin clotting within a minute. The blood in Purple top tubes used for CBCs won't clot. If you are drawing a purple top for some reason be sure and invert and uninvert the tube to mix the EDTA with the blood well to prevent clotting. Be sure to use red-top tubes for all serum tests. You can't get serum from unclotted blood.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

That's what I thought! But it went all over. It probably looked a lot worse than it was, but it was a mess! I'll have to ask if there is a trick the next time I get my blood drawn.

I put all of my sharps into a sharps container I got from www.shopmedvet.com. I keep it in the milk room, secured, so none of my children can get into it. I like that method better than just putting the needles into the trash or using an applesauce jar. My doctor's office will dispose of the container for me.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

I wouldn't think anything of putting someone's sharps in our box in the office. Diabetics bring their sharps in too. No biggie to me. You can't just throw that stuff in normal trash.

The only trick I know is to just do it quickly. Of course, we did draws every day, and practice makes perfect.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Drawing for G6S has to go in a Purple Top too.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

The needle holder I got from Biotracking did not have a rubber boot over the inner needle. It started dripping as soon as you got the vein and made a big mess. My white goat looked like a victim of some horrible accident! :/


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

That is odd. Vacutainer holders have a rubber boot.


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## LSP Farm (Dec 4, 2011)

The ones I used had a boot also. I don't think I spilled a drop.. I had never used them before, might have been a little easier if my hands were bigger. Shoving the tube on with one hand took some getting use too.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I've only used the vacutainer needle once on a calf, it was pretty handy...but I think they are more expensive than a syringe, plus you can't use them really on cats and smaller dogs, which I've mostly worked with small animals, because the amount of suction created is just too much for those itty bitty veins. Anyway, once you find the vein, you can let off the pressure with your holding off hand in order to attach the blood collection vial, then put the pressure back on the vein (or in the calf's case I probably didn't even have to do that, lol!). I know that in both cattle and in horses, I have inserted a needle in their jugular veins and then attached my syringe of either meds, or to draw blood. I cannot attach a needle to a syringe with one hand, so I take the pressure off the vein while attaching the syringe. I haven't really done cattle or horses since vet tech school (almost 5 years ago, yikes!), so I can't tell you why we do the needle unattached to the syringe...perhaps so that when they jump from the initial poke, it won't pull back out.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Yeah, small, fragile veins we did with a butterfly and syringe. Once you get the butterfly in you can let go of it to pull the plunger.

When you uncap a vacutainer needle, uncap the end that goes into the holder first and screw it into the holder. It should have a rubber boot over the needle that goes in that end. Don't remove it if you see it. Then uncap the end you're going to stick with. Clean your area of skin and stick. The blood should stay in the boot until you slip the tube onto the needle.

Some syringes you just stick the needle onto and friction keeps it there. I HATE THOSE. I always, always buy luer lock syringes! They screw on. Sometimes you might not get it screwed on well and it could slip off Just check it first. Give it a good twist.

They have neat little contraptions on the top of small sharps boxes that you just push the needle holder into and push down and it unscrews the needle for you so it drops into the sharps container. You never, never, never re-cap a needle in human medicine. It is the #1 way to get stuck with a dirty needle. If you MUST recap it (because it is not safe to travel around with an uncapped needle) lay the cap down on a surface and use one hand to slip the needle into the cap and then you can secure the cap with the other hand, when the needle is covered. This is good practice when giving medications, even vitamins, to animals. Animal meds can be very bad for humans to get stuck with. In fact there is one antibiotic that we use for cattle that has no tolerable dose for humans. It will stop your heart, just a drop of it. Ranchers have been found dead with a syringe stuck in their pocket that they had either fallen or something and been accidentally injected with animal medicine. BE SAFE!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Well that explains why it was such a disaster! There was no rubber boot. It makes sense that that would be an easier way to do it. Without the boot I found it very hard to get the vial on the needle without making a big mess.


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