# mixing grain



## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

I began mixing grain last year. Everyone did GREAT! I was SOOOOO pleased.........
That is, until about two weeks before a delivery of quads.......It was a mess.......we never had quads before, and we had to induce labor.....the kids were preemies with problems,......the mom.....was horrible......we tried everything.....at two weeks, we put mom down.......it broke our hearts......and nothing but problems since.....I wonder how we thought at the time,l that what we were doing./...(mixing our own grain) was a GOOD thing! We have since.....had 14 of 17 kiddings have problems.....Most of our does have had Toxemia......something we NEVER had. beforelllll........we have had to induce MANY labors.........this year. fortunatlely....... we only lost our Ellliot, and ONE baby boy,.,,,,,,at 36 hours......I now trust the pre-mix feed.......molasses and all........we NEVER had so many probkems!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If your premixed feed is simply grain with added molasses, than how can you blame this kidding season on taking out the molasses and mixing your own grain?

Sorry this has been such a tough year, but it's rarely grain associated when you have pregnancy disease, metabolic disease. Nearly all ketosis and pregnancy toxemia diagnosis come after untreated hypocalcemia is killing your does. True toxemia is usually seen in very obese or very emaciated goats, do you feed a lot of grain? Does with fatty livers also have a very hard time getting to the end of pregnancy. Feeding alfalfa or alfalfa pellets?

If you induced labor and the kids are preemie how is this a grain problem, you induced to early, our quads and quints are tiny, but they are not preemie..


Perhaps like us your copper problems are more severe than you thought, I know something has changed for us this last two years, your calcium isn't being absorbed like it used to. It has to be a much larger change than just your grain. When you move from a premixed product to raw grains you are taking a huge amount of minerals and vitamins out of your girls management, if it isn't compensated by excellent minerals of course you can have problems. I don't even remember how many years it has been since I got of the molasses and premixed byproducts feeds, I have had zero problems with metobolic disease in my goats since then, but I also do not feed a lot of grain though.

I just don't believe a feed change has caused all these problems for you, a hay change, yes. Does are eating so little grain before kidding that it isn't even 1/4th of their total ration which should be their hay and browse, without browse living that far north you become even more dependent upon their hay. I am surprised you aren't blaming your hay.

Once again I am so sorry you are so upset. Vicki


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

Since I returned to prebagged feed I have had zero metabolic problems with my does. I also feed coastal rolls and alfalfa baled hay. No alfalfa pellets. Bluebonnet Techmaster minerals also.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

ecftoggs said:


> Sally,
> So sorry to hear of your problems. After working many years in the feed industry, I choose to let the nutritionists with the PhD's in their name balance my diets, so that is why I feed a complete bagged feed. It is not so simple as some people think, modern dairy goats have much higher needs than their ancestors. They also need diets that fit thier stage of production. I hope you get them straightened out soon and you don't have to go through this again.
> Tim


I agree 100%


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

LaNell did you have a lot of problems before? I know for me it was all about not feeding alfalfa/calcium every day, and copper. Once I understood how important those two things were to the girls, I rarely saw any pregnancy issues from diet.

But I will say..... this ongoing talk of grain, I think everyone's reliance on their grain is way over the top. I wish we would talk more about their hay and browse first and quit being so dependent upon sacked grains of any kind. Grain in any form is the real problem in all this, not which kind you choose to feed. It would be also really nice if every time we had this conversation we didn't have posts from those only coming on to stir the pot, posting. It would be nice to hear their views on other subjects as well, give back.

Tim do you really think the list of problems in her original posts was all related to her feeding? Don't you think that is a very simplistic view? Also in the premixed bag you purchase and use, you don't add anything to it at all, no topdressing, no this or that added, just it and hay and minerals? Because I have never found that to be the case. Vicki


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I got some very good advise early on in goats, and that was put your money in your hay - alfalfa hay. Find good hay that is what your goats need and that is what they were designed to assimilate. It does seem to me that people put their hope in this and that or what and which or when they need to focus on the basic need of the animal as a whole what makes a healthy happy animal. I'm waiting for Buckrun to chime in


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

The grain or formulated ration should be the icing on the cake -the cake being a rumen full of excellent quality roughage. You are right Linda that depending on the grain ration to fix every thing is a vain hope indeed. 

Just a side note that is totally my opinion -nutritionists study theory- they don't raise goats in the real life situations they end up in. They read about goats and ruminant digestion. They read about lab studies. They read about controlled feeding programs. They assimilate and reformulate data. They work for big agri and yes this is an important part of the equation. They are taught what a good ration SHOULD look like in numbers charts and graphs. 
Not in the belly of each individual live goat we run up against in many a highly varied farm situation.
Science is great- but it does not always translate to real life just the way you might think it should. 

So I trust nutritionists about like I trust doctors and vets and politicians and other people that have never had one toe in the life they try to direct. Which is why forums are all the rage! 

Imbalance of any kind is a problem with a ruminant and it is up to you as the caretaker to determine what each animal needs. There is no one size fits all. It takes being there and being observant and learning your animals in your situation and then do the best you can to understand what you are looking at-again where forums come in.

CHIME~ 
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I think all would agree that good reproduction is a function of good nutrition. 
...............

 What a good answer, you must be a politician.


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## dvm-mommy (Feb 5, 2009)

oooh Lee...I do agree 100%. It is my passion with not only goats, but all species of animals. I have been on a nutrition kick for YEARS, starting with us (humans), then it overflowed to our k-9's/felines..now to goats as we have owned them for about 2 years. We've got it all wrong (nutritionists, doctors, vets- yes, I know- the irony :really, etc...). 

Humans: Low fat is NOT healthy. Saturated fat is not wrong...and high cholesterol is not "bad". *gasp*  Processed foods..the less you eat of this stuff ,the better off you will be!
Dogs/cats: A processed dry kibble mixed with preservatives and what-not is a poor form of nutrition for these animal. Why so many are going to home-cooked meals for their animals or ...raw. 
Goats: Well, I have found the HARD way (and only cause I stumbled onto this site) that the top name, so called "in"! food(grain) that happens to be the rage at the time, does not in any way make up for basic needs of the goat. To my ignorant self (and I say all this in COMPLETE humility), first cutting clover/grass hay was good enough to feed the girls as long as I was pushing the grain at the recommended rate of 4-5 pounds per day for an average producing goat. Hmmm..let's see...3-4 cases of mastitis last year which has all about ruined future production of one of our beloved does, pregancy toxemia, hypocalcemia, bad hooves, dog-like poop...etc, etc etc. Now, I see with all wisdom (hahaha)- that applying my passion for sound nutrition learned from the human and dog/cat realm also makes sense in ruminants. They were made to handle FORAGE in the form of grass, shrubs, etc. That is their primary requirement. Once I got that through my head...I slowly turned the ship around before it completely sank. I concentrate on good quality forage and LOTS of it, and a smattering of grain to my heavy producers.


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## dvm-mommy (Feb 5, 2009)

Ah yes...and this year?? NO problems with active mastitis (save my one doe who is ruined from last year..need to cull her *gulp*.), hooves, etc. All does (and 1 ewe), 7 total, had uneventful kiddings (2 sets of triplets, 3 sets of twins and 2 singletons) with all normal presentations...
Now I know a scientfic study this does not make. But boy, what a pleasant change from last year. I could say oh, it's the ADM 16%..but it is not. I feed a fraction of what I fed last year. Even our top producing Alpine gets only a cup and a half (about 3/4 of a pound) am and 1/2 pound pm. I am constantly keeping their hay racks full though of an 80% red clover/grass hay.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

> I think all would agree that good reproduction is a function of good nutrition.
> Tim


Tim I do agree with you on that note however I have to disagree with you on purchasing a premixed feed/grain as being the bullet to cure all. 
I can vouch that I personally and will not speak for anyone else that for 15 yrs I mixed my own grain. I never have had a horrible birthing and only one hypocalcimic doe in those 15 yrs which was my own fault for not giving her the alfalfa she needed So what I am saying is this 
I fed grains I mixed myself and had Grandchampion winners my friend up here uses a sweet feed only as her grain and has GC winners You feed a premix grain and probably have GC winners SO all in all it isn't just the grain you feed but the over all nutrition and care the goat gets Please don't put me down for mixing my own grains NOR will I put down you for feeding a premix. Hopefully Pokymon won't have the same problems she had this year again but PLEASE it just can't all have been mixing grain there had to be something else going on at the same time.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

I will say that I switched feeding to Sondra's after I purchased a doe on her management because I wanted all my herd to look like that. I also copied the rest of the management which I believe is based on Vicki's and our southern problems - copper, etc. The doe delivered quads with no problem that were a day early and ranged from almost 6lbs to 7.5lbs. 

I drenched the family account (kidding here, but I did not cut corners in this area) on feeding this doe and all others free choice quality alfalfa her entire gestation. She milked out a gallon of colostrum first day and looks great. No problems here. 

The minute I meet a PhD nutritionist that cares more about my does and my profit margin than I do I will feed what they mix me in a bag.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

I prefer to feed free choice alfalfa pellets, free choice grass hay,free choice loose goat minerals and only a small amount of whole grains that I mixed myself when on the milk stand. We have only been in goats for 3 1/2 years and except for the first few months when we fed nothing but sweet feed and grass hay, we have fed this way and other than one time having two babies try to come out at the same time, we haven't had a train wreck birth, or hypocalcemia, or ketosis. 

Of course,again we have only had goats for 3 1/2 years, so hardly long enough to know long term effects. But unless we start having chronic problems that can be proven are being caused by our feeding of whole grains, I am not going to switch to a bagged feed. Just as the over proccessed food that is available to humans is not good for us, neither is it good for goats.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> Just as the over processed food that is available to humans is not good for us, neither is it good for goats.


 :yeahthat


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

I did not mean to sound so upset. I WAS upset, but ONLY at myself for trying to fix something that was not broken. I think that I was not mixing the grains properly, and then one load of lousy alfalfa tipped the goats over the edge. I did not mean to offend anyone. Sorry if I did.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

nope Sally it is chg that causes problems no offence taken


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

I am just happy that we only had 2 casualties, and alot of what I have learned here on this forum, prevented us from losing about 12 does and umpteen kids! I am VERY glad, that we only have one more due, and not until the end of May!  
Oh! And as a sidenote here... we got GOOD prices for our Easter meat kids this year! I only wish that more of the little monsters were a bit bigger so we could sell them! lol


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## Candy (Jun 4, 2009)

I just want to say thanks for this post because I am learning. We have just recently changed to grain from sweet feeds and I am still trying to feed them pounds at a time on the stand. I have started feeding more alfalfa pellets and right now a grass/alfalfa mixed hay. If I can really feed less grain, I will spend the money on alfalfa. Great learning post!!


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## haeema (Jan 18, 2008)

I'm sorry you had so many problems. I thought I had a rough year with loosing 3 kids and some does not breeding.....but yours was by far worse. I'll pray for you!


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## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

I honestly think that the hardest lesson for a new goat keepper to learn is: Goats eat hay, browse, and weeds.
We keep thinking they will starve without grains.

And for me that was hard, and then figuring out that corn did not spell nutrition in goats, was another learning curve. I did finally notice, the more corn I fed, the more oil stood in the milking pail! The milk actually had a different texture when I mixed up good grains, and didn't lean so heavily on corn.

I am so glad that I had a large pasture and my goats survived even with too much grain!
I try really hard to look at grains like cookies for kids, not before dinner, not when you haven't eaten your dinner at all, and not as the major diet! After eating good all day long, a cookie is not a problem!


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

Just one more note here.. about the quads...they were dying in utero, I am now convinced, and we got them out just in time... and somehow, they lived... and are normal bouncing bottle-brats today. Mama-goat had been down for a long time when we induced. I think she was on her way out as well... but bounced back a little after the kids were born.

With the subsequent sick does, we treated more aggressively, and at the first sign of problems, and then induced at the same age the quads were, and all preemie kids were just fine.....I think the aggression in treating the does, as well as the treatment itself, is what made the difference. But thanks...


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Sally have you given more thought to the confinement and vit d lack and lack of exercise?
This story had many factors contributing and I don't think it was solely feed issues.
I agree with hopping on the problem early. So much easier to correct before they spiral into complications.
Sorry you had such a hard winter and hope the rest of the year is much better.
Lee


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks Lee....Yes, we have analyzed this year to DEATH! lol.... The ONLY difference this year, was the mixing of our own grain, and the one load of lousy alfalfa hay..... granted, it was at a crucial time.... 
I think that both of those things contributed to our MANY problems... 
Again, I am happy that, despite the horrible and MANY problems thhis year, we STILL got a ratio of 2.4 kids per doe this year! (Thanks to this forum, as it has given me the bravery to help moms out, and most of those kids needed lots of help to be birthed this year.) and, we had a HIGH reproduction rate... quads, lots of triplets and twins, and only ONE single, even tho 7 of them were first fresheners.  It is ALWAYS a learning process! Every time we think we have it all figured out, something weird happens... That is why I keep LOTS of notes!  I hope this thread does not scare new folks... as our problems are definately NOT the norm... people tend to post alot more about problems than they do about normal births! Thanks guys!

All in all, it has been a GOOD year, tho much more labor intensive, with treatments, and difficult kiddings, but.. we have LOTS of babies, too, that, even tho some of them are horrid bottle brats, we are sooo thankful for them! .


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## Liss (Jul 20, 2010)

I have read that all those dollars we spend on feed - goes to good use. I figure they have great resource for research in the nutritional arena, of course, their acceptance of GMO and other sources for ingredient are probably different than ours. Many folks/scientist do not see any difference in GMO and natural product.


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## Liss (Jul 20, 2010)

I am new to raising goats - 3 years in. No problems - but when I start reading these post - I panic. Have Nigerians that have freshened once, no buck - bought couple of buck baby boys spring of 2012 and got my ladies bred. 

I am always unsure what and how much grain to feed. They have access to some browse, but not on pasture. 

I only give them cup of grain most every day - but am feeding Super Goat/has vit. etc. it is 16%. 

I also was giving 1/8 c. calf manna. Feeding orchard grass. I have timothy/fescue mix off my field - that they are really loving right now. I do give Diamond V yeast also - They get Payback Plus Goat Minerals: label 
Calcium not less than 16.0% Calcium not more than 17.0% Phosphorus not less than 8.0% Salt not less than11.0% Salt not more than12.0% Magnesium not less than 1.5% Cobalt not less than 20ppm Copper not less than 1,750ppm Iodine not less than200ppm Manganese not less than 5,000ppm Selenium not less than 50.0ppm Zinc not less than 7,000 ppm Vitamin A not less than300,000IU/lb Vitamin D not less than60,000IU/lb Vitamin E not less than400IU/lb

Sorry for all that and the addl. plus here in Oregon is it doesnt absorb the moisture it has an anticaking agent - since they are due in early April - I have started feeding cup of alfalfa pellets each day.

I am always unsure when they are fresh as to how much grain they should have - have heard - lb. of grain for every lb. of milk. My goats (Nigerians) wouldnt eat that much grain - I have offered 1 1/2 c. before and they didnt eat it all. Then I have read people let them eat all the grain they want on the stand, but I would say that depends on how fast you milk - I am so afraid of bloat! I have talked to someone else that doesnt feed grain at all - her goats get only browse and alfalfa pellets on the milk stand. So - I question everything I AM doing. After reading Vicki's post on too much protein - I think they're done with the Calf Manna.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Welcome! There are lots and lots of posts about how and what and how much to feed. You will find huge variances among the members here, many right ways to feed. First of all, don't panic! Don't change too much at a time. 
If your Nigerians are like mine were, they don't need much grain at all. Maybe a cup at each milking time. And what your friend does, browse with alf pellets on the milk stand, is probably a very good way to feed them. Do you like the way her goats look? 
Only take advice from someone if you like the way their goats look. If they have skinny goats who are miscarrying their kids or if they lose kids every year from one thing or another, look somewhere else for advice.


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## Drambo (Feb 23, 2013)

I have Nigerians as well. I've only been doing this for about 4 years so don't claim to know much but my girls are all super healthy and all went on milk test last year and got their stars.

I feed 2 parts Dairy Parlor 16, 1 part BOSS (for nice coats and joints), 1 part wet cobb( for yummyness ), 1 part Healthy Edge horse feed(low sugar high fat keeps my butterfat numbers nice and high). I mix the lot in a 5 gallon bucket and then give the milkers 1/2 cup each on the stand 2x daily and the dry/pregnant girls get 1/3 cup each 2x daily. I top dress with kelp powder, baking soda and dry red raspberry leaves (good for female stuff like heats and lactation). I put out a fresh bowl of minerals every morning when they go out so they can nibble at their leisure. The Does in milk free feed on Alfalfa and the dry does get Alfalfa in the morning and Orchard grass at night. My bucks get lots of orchard grass and only get grain during rut. 

Of course I adjust for each goat (some of my girls tend to be chubby). But this has been working really well for me.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Melissa, I'm not familiar with orchard grass so forgive my question, but is it a good source of calcium? Does must have adequate calcium levels in their overall feed ration.

And yes, since you are feeding a 16% grain ration already, I'd ditch the Calf Manna. Now, if you move to whole grains, then I would use this to up the protein for milking does.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

This year, I am trying to go no-grain with my Nigerians. I have one doe fresh so far-2 weeks tomorrow. She is a 2-year old second freshener already milking 4 lbs a day. I feed good quality alfalfa hay, and she get alfalfa pellets on the stand, maybe a half handful of beet pulp or a sprinkling of grain (like a teaspoon)...she doesn't like alf pellets that much and gets mad if that is all that's in the bowl, hehe. Anyway, she is doing very well, and so long as she doesn't get underconditioned, I will keep feeding this way...same with my other Nigerian doe due in about a little over a month. The first doe was a real butterball before freshening, I could see fat in her thighs when I gave her a birth haircut...so I know she didn't need grain!! And her kids came out healthy and vigorous (and a bit big, so I am wondering if in the dry period having too much protein--from the alfalfa hay--doesn't grow 'em up too much, the twins were 3.5 and 4.5 lbs..if I could find grass hay around here, I may have gave a bit of that to decrease grain in overall ration...too bad pasture isn't growing much yet).


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

I too would like to switch from feeding a 16% ration and grass hay, to feeding mixed grain ( Sondras mix ) and alfalfa hay. Sondras mix contains oats, barley, cracked corn, Boss, all of which I can get here in Bulgaria and Beet pulp which I cant. Can somebody formulate me a suitable mix using the ingredients I can get?


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## jdavenport (Jul 19, 2012)

Quentin-Have you tried using the Langston University nutrient calculator? Here's the address: http://www2.luresext.edu/goats/research/nutr_calc.htm
I've had all kinds of fun playing with it, trying to find something I could afford that would give the girls everything they need.
Hope this helps!


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## Liss (Jul 20, 2010)

I have read grain through pregnancy goes right to the kids. - literally, but again, I read you should start giving them grain near the end? I stay confused - someone near me has great success with milk production with the nigerians - I think I will follow her lead. However, she does grain through pregnancy and always has big kids like you described.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

If you think about it, there is no way that can be true - that grain goes straight to kids. It's metabolically impossible. The best guide is the condition of your does. NDs in general do not need much grain.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I have a Nigerian doe on a no-grain diet. She had zero grain in pregnancy, and is getting a tiny sprinkle in the bottom of her bowl under alfalfa pellets (or she gets mad ). She had twins that weighed in at 3.5 and 4.5 lbs, which is huge for Nigerians! I think it's the lotsa protein from the alfalfa hay I feed that grows big kids more than anything, and since she didn't get grain, her diet was higher in protein than others who do get grain in pregnancy.


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## Tracer (Mar 7, 2013)

Here is my two cents on feeding any animal. The main goal of feeding any animal is to keep it in great body condition. The way you accomplish this doesn't matter as long as the animal is in good shape. When I was showing meat goats like ten years ago I mixed my own feed and fed store bought feed with great result from both. It's all in what your comfortable with doing and being able to see what condition your animals are in. That's one of the biggest mistakes I see people make is not knowing if the animal is fat thin or just right. So those are my thoughts.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes but what most think is great condition, is actually an obese goat. They think their dairy does are emaciated when they are doing exactly what they should be and look exactly like they should, lean mean milking machines. Body condition scoring for boers compared to dairy, no such thing. And most think grain is how you get your does in great condition, no not really, grain is how you kill your does longevity, her ability to milk until she is 12, to kid without help, to breed without drugs. Vicki


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## Tracer (Mar 7, 2013)

I couldn't agree more


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## Liss (Jul 20, 2010)

interesting point - I consently gleen from others experience! Grain - mix - what about when in production? 

It is interesting to watch - my ladies dont really have that much access to browse - they are surrounded by oaks - and grass - some blackberry - i have been buying orchard grass for their main feed - (ouch.) - and they get some alfalfa pellets (the pregnant ladies - which i recently started) and some grain - not much - however, i have field hay that isnt the best - and they hang out more on that than the orchard grass - which for my bank acct. is a good thing.


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