# Bedding - yet again.



## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I hate beating a dead horse here, but I need some guidance  I have a converted horse barn with mats in 12x12 stalls. They have automatic waterers and nice hay feeders that eliminate the hay waste. I use straw, I think it is wheat. about 1 bale per stall. There is 2 goats per stall. We clean out and put the fans on the area each weekend. By Tuesday, I can walk in and find pockets of pee and it smells. The straw is not absorbing anything? At least I don't think it is doing as good a job as the saw dust that caused me a mess this summer. Should I just add more and keep adding more...I'm just not happy....it is just not dry in there at all. They go in from milking time at night until morning chores. Thanks, Linda


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Straw doesn't really absorb anything. The nice thing about it is that the berries fall through but it really needs something under it like sawdust or shavings to soak up the pee and prevent smells. My vet had me use straw when my mare was getting ready to foal and it was a nightmare. I cheated and put shavings underneath and it soaked up the wet and was much, much nicer. I do the same with the goats only their bedding is the hay they waste! Wish I had good hay feeders.


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Like Anita said straw doesn't do a good job of absorbing. The problem is that with the ammonia smell build up then respiratory problems start from that. In the past in the wintertime I tried a product called Pit n Pen to absorb the odors and to break down the ammonia. It worked great until the place I bought it from went out of business. Anita has a good idea there with the sawdust/shavings then the straw. And.....we use old hay too for bedding.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

A good absorber is that equine pine or wood pellets for pellet stoves. You can spread those on the bottom and they absorb nicely.


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## punchiepal (Aug 4, 2010)

Last winter we put down a layer of lime, then pine shavings, and finally straw on top. It worked really well. I wondered about the pine pellets, will have to think about adding that.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

We also have matted horse stalls. This year, we only going to bring the girls in if it is bitter cold out or it's kidding time. But in past years, we would bring them in at night. We use shavings then straw. We cleaned them once a week as we had 3 girls per stall. After cleaning, we would sprinkle lime down on the wet spots and then rebed with shavings, then straw. If I really kept up on it, I could find the pee spots and only clean those areas and that might get me an extra week out of it, but it was almost as easy to clean the whole pen.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I love the pellets! But I also use cedar shavings and straw. The cedar I use to keep the buggies out and for the smell. The first couple of years we used just straw. Then I got the idea from someone on here about the pellets. I already knew that cedar helped with beetles, fleas, and mites so I just decided to add them too. We have dirt floors so I like the fact that the cedar helps keep the odor and pnemonia smell at bay but can get expensive. 

IMHO mats are a pain in the patootie. They do not allow for drainage and hold up urine (much like concrete). Once urine has stood on those mats for a time the smell remains, it is semi-permeable so the urine does soak in. Being semi-permeable they can also hold bacteria. Cleaning them would seem alot more intensive than a dirt floor.
Tam


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

There is certainly something to be said in favor of dirt floors. I hate that the goats dig in them and create unlevel spots and hate that I can't just soap them up and spray them down, but in the long run, because of the various soil-dwelling beneficial bacteria and microbes, they seem to be a lot dryer and smell much less if the sheds/stalls/barns don't leak.  I don't think you can build up a deep layer over mats or concrete. (I could be wrong I have not tried it.) The dirt floor seems to act like a compost starter and will actually heat up in the winter and if enough absorbable bedding is laid down it will be warm for the goats without them laying in muck. 

I used to board at a nice horse facility with fancy stalls with expensive mats. Those stalls smelled worse than any of the dirt-floored barns I had previously had my horse in. The urine just laid there on the mat, even though shavings were used and it was stiffling to go into the stall. I don't think the owner had that in mind when she spent those extra hundreds of dollars per stall to prevent just that!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I think stall skins would be the way to go. Maybe one of these days...


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Just googled stall skins. Neat concept. 
A few times a year, I put a layer of fully composted material mixed with dolomitic lime down in the barn to level things out and pack it down. Makes a hard but absorbent base for shavings or straw.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

When we move and do it over again, there will be no mats. The barn was built for horses only. Since we're selling our house, the mats will stay.

However, our stalls do not smell. I would guess, Anita, that the barn you mentioned didn't clean them well, every day.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

When I boarded my horse, I helped muck stalls. It was a concrete floor, don't know about mats, the shavings were so deep I never saw what was underneath. Every day we picked out pee spot and manure and added shavings as needed. It always smelled nice. I'd like to get one of those sifting rakes like was posted awhile back. That would be ideal for getting the pellets. But I guess urine is the bigger issue.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I think goat urine has a stronger ammonia smell, probably due to a higher protein diet than what horses get.

I use shavings, saw dust or wood pellets with hay on top. The hay is what the goats pull out of their feeders.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

No, the horse stalls were very, very clean. They were not, however, bedded deeply and I think that was the difference. Every time they used the bathroom, it smelled bad. Every time. And horses pee and poop A LOT!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Anita Martin said:


> And horses pee and poop A LOT!


YES THEY DO!!!!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Find something local, find something you can afford. I have dirt floors, I have to resand the floor every 5 or 6 years, cleaning eventually takes my sand out to the compost piles. I can't afford and certainly do not want to replace shavings and straw every week. I start with clean sand with lime raked in very very well, then from November until the end of March I use shavings, cleaning out nasty areas and replacing shavings as I go. Right before the does kid in March I add straw to the top, and add more straw and once in awhile Sweet PDZ or a knock off, before customers come out. I always get comments on how clean my barn is...just don't look under the straw! Once the last doe kids and warm weather is here, the barn is completely cleaned out to the compost pile an the girls live on raked sand all late spring and summer. This keeps my costs down. Vicki


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

That would be great to have dirt floors, unfortunately, under my mats is concrete, so I am pretty limited as to what I have to work with. I have been talking with some mill shops that produce cabinets. The issue to is the exotics that they potentially can run, but I'm sure most people do oak or maple thankfully. I ended up buying some bags from TSC and putting a light layer of pine curls and cedar curls down with straw on top. It seems like it is working, but shocking the price...needed a quick fix for a a week or two till I line something up!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Linda don't use raw sawdust or shavings in pens with your milkers. For kids and bucks it's fine I have used it for years. You want kiln dried for your milkers. Vicki


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I really like paper shavings, with hay or straw on top. They absorb wonderfully. They are cheaper than pine shavings, too, and break down more easily.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

hsmomof4 said:


> I really like paper shavings, with hay or straw on top. They absorb wonderfully. They are cheaper than pine shavings, too, and break down more easily.


Where do you get these, Stacey?


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Local feed store. Here's their website, and they have a dealer locator thingy. http://www.papershavings.com/


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

Trying something new - built a "bed" for my goats today. I have so enjoyed the summer with sand, easy to rake and keep clean, doesn't smell, etc. Tried the straw bales by the wall but I have naughty goats who proceeded to use their hoofs and distribute said straw within two days. After less than two weeks, I couldn't stand it anymore and cleaned back down to the ground. But it is getting colder (below freezing at night) so I have to do something for them. I especially don't like straw or shavings in front of their feeders for two reasons. Harder to gather the waste for the horses and since they stand there and eat and pee and poop, it gets the grossest.

So, I took a corner (6' x 10') and used some scrap lumber and built a frame that is about 15" high all around. INSIDE ONLY I put some straw so they have a place to lay that is warmer and more comfy but the rest of the pen is sand/dirt floor. Am hoping with that height that it won't get dragged out and I haven't decided yet if I'll keep adding or clean it out completely every couple of weeks.

The complete pen is 12' x 24' so this is about 1/4 of their space - not counting the two acres outside. The only issue I can still foresee is the moisture level on the floor itself as we live in the rainy northwest and even in covered areas the humidity builds up. If I can't keep that under control somehow, I'll have to add some bedding but am hoping to postpone and minimize it as much as possible. 

This is for 6 goats - four full size does and two doelings from this spring.


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

I've never seen hay or straw before it was baled, so up north straw was white/yellow tubes that you can even drink through. When I moved south I asked for straw and they pointed me at pine straw (of which I have plenty in my front yard) So when you mention straw which do you mean?


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

This particular straw is wheat straw - comes baled and is the "leftovers" after wheat harvest. Around here the most common are wheat and oat. It is probably what you are used to from up north.  Sometimes I use cedar shavings cuz I like the smell and may alternate if I end up doing a deep bedding routine within their "bedframe".


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You really need to start your indoor compost pile with shavings, then when they pack that down really well, put your straw over the top, dig out any places that get really wet, but alternate shavings and straw. The bottom starts composting and puts off heat, I do sprinkle stall dry etc. once every few weeks..to deacidfy the urine build up. I do a clean out right before the does kid in March, back down to sand, then shavings and straw, once the last doe kids, the whole barn gets cleaned out. Ours is about humidity which makes even our mild winters chill you to the bone when you walking around damp all the time.

I don't bed the barns until Thanksgiving weekend. Vicki


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

I am doing what I call a cave system. My two milkers have a 10' by 10' open face shed. I put a rubbermaid slide lid shed facing this just outside. It is dark in there but plenty of straw. They go in this cave to sleep but when they get up they immediately go out of this to the light, and poop and pee there. So they aren't sleeping right over urine. I am doing this with the 5 others now. I had carports put up this summer, nice and airey, non rainey, in front of their ten by ten shed. That shed has a 4 ft. doorway though, then a short wall going in the shed so they go in and around the short wall which shields light from shining in making it darker, a cave. Again, they go in there to sleep and when they wake up they come out to the light, then poop and pee. Their hay feeder is in this outside covered area, so that is also attractive to them to leave the cave quickly. I have rubber mats and a soft dirt area also. They seem to be attracted to the dirt area to pee. I rake aside straw and sweep up the pellets but there is a deeper straw area on the mats they pee on also, farther down. The area right in front of their shed sleeping area is all rubber mat belting from a mining company, they only poop there,I don't put straw there, they rarely pee on the mats there, maybe not liking the splash of the pee. I just sweep up the dried poop there. The dirt area is near this and they are attracted to this to pee, like a litterbox. There are five goats that sleep in the cave shed and it now doesnt' smell like urine anymore. This is extremely exciting to me. My next project is to put a carport up in front of my milkers shed turning that shed into a larger sleeping cave area and giving them a nice roomey attractive area to hang out in, eat, and do their peeing. Now I have to be realistic. This worked all summer and still is working. I am going to see if super cold weather and wind will make them stay in the dark cave more. I will put a light up to attract them out of that shed during dark days with inclement weather if I see signs of peeing in there as an experiment. Also I am planning on putting siding on the carports to block wind if I see a problem with that.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I like that 'small area with straw' idea, I'm sure it'll work with a smaller amount of goats. I used to have a calf barn, where the calves had about 1/3 of their area inside ('open front' barn, it was a converted old hog barn) bedded, sand in summer/strawpack in winter). The other 2/3 was concrete exercise area and led up to their feeders in the front. 5 calves per pen (I like small groups when their young, more individual TLC!). Worked very well. Now with the goats I have 1 large barn which, right now has to house 18 milking does (1 large pen with run out to pasture), 20 yearlings/dry does (one large pen, which will get it's run out to pasture this spring), 3 bred 'spring-kids' (small pen), and 19 little fall kids (in a pretty random pen/play ground, with some old bales as obstacles, very fun!) , plus a kidding pen/sick pen open for use. The two bucks are outside with hutches. I hope to add 15-30 milking does in January which my pens should easily be able to hold. I stick with an 'old fashioned' bedded pack system, meaning that I build up a pack which is only removed twice a year. We empty the entire barn in fall (after the peak of fall kidding, we'll do this during the next 2-3 weeks). I try to pick a nice day, so I can 'kick' everyone outside for at least 24 hrs. That way everything can air and dry out when it's empty. Once the floors are dry, I start with a layer of lime on the dirt floor (I'm pretty strict about that, don't miss a spot) and then a good layer of straw. As the winter progresses I bed as needed with more straw, but I also throw left over hay from the feeders into the pen for bedding (yep, low budget). Then in spring, usually after kidding season, but it really depends on the weather, we do the same thing again. Has been working well for me. It takes a lot of bedding initially, but once you have a good 'working' pack, it really doesn't take that much extra bedding to keep it clean and dry for the girls. My goats are always clean, which theuy have to be: I don't want to see any dirty udders in the parlor. I want to think I'm wasting my time when I pre-dip (but I pre dip anyway!!)


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

Well, they like it but one doe is sorta ruling the roost and not letting the others share - will monitor that - maybe move her to a kidding pen at night?  Ya know, if you can't play nice you don't get to play.


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## Daniel Babcock (May 28, 2008)

Vicki-

I really like the way you handle your bedding. I follow a similar pattern, however when march comes around there is so much bedding material that it is a huge job to clean up and out. It literally takes us a full day. 

Do you use a tractor in your barn or do you use a fork and shovel and haul it all by hand?


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

We use a skid loader, but pick up all loose and stuck stuff on the sides out with a pitchfork. That's the hard work, but cleaning the barn means cleaning the barn, right? Also takes us about a day when we spread the manure on the field right away (and we usually do).


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

One idea I have read (Joel Salatin does this) is to layer grain into the deep bedding. As you put layers of fresh straw, you first put down a layer of grain, then the straw goes on top of that. Then, in the spring, let some pigs in to root up all the grain between the layers, and they loosen up the bedding pack that way. I might try it this year with my neighbor's pigs, since I don't have a tractor, so I have to chip everything out by hand. That is quite a job!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Pitch fork and wheelbarrow, and it is hired work. I have stalls, 4 10x10 and one 20x20 I do not want my husbands tractor in there ruining my sand base  V


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Grain? That's expensive! And pigs will root it up anyway, even without the grain! I guess I'm lucky, 'cause my husband and sons are very handy with the skid steer and the base stays intact. That's where I come in doing the details with the pitch fork and wheelbarrow (wish I was your employee, Vicki, at least i'd get paid!!!)


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Pitchfork, rake, and flat shovel here, hired help in the spring but the rest I do myself, Spring is the heaviest change out time especially in the doe barn with kiddings and dirt, muck, and poo/pee. Changed every week then. I love summer-just pellets and cedar/pine chips
Tam


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

http://www.polyfacefarms.com/2011/07/25/pigaerator-pork/

You have to feed the pigs anyway, so I don't see how it would be more expensive to feed them by putting their food into the bedding pack? I doubt they are dumping tons of it in there...


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I like the deep pack, but not sure how I would do that with my stall situation? Concrete, floor mats...yadadayadaa.There is a 2x4 wood lip and slide doors to enter the stalls. The stalls are all connected with smaller man made doorways that you can close up individually. Comes in handy when you want to separate kids from nursin. We finally got some kiln dried saw dust...I hate it. It absorbs great, but still smells, and I will only do it once a week. I'm not sure how I or the goats could stand the ammonia if you deep pack. I do sprinkle barn lime on the bottom then a good amount of the shavings and then put a corner of straw for whoever wants to snuggle. Help me to figure out how to do it


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I have always put pine shavings down first and then straw. Now, my DH is telling me that shavings aren't good for goats because they offgas fumes that could harm the liver. He says turpentine is made from pine. Since I haven't heard any concerns from livestock breeders, I'll continue with the shavings.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

A little turpentine fume perhaps keeps the bugs away, and besides just how long do we really want these witches to live anyway  Birdy who is 10 and I am going to take a photo of this cow who is due in about 20 days....smashed into me today, on purpose because I didn't move fast enough for her....so a little offgas fumes, yep sounds kinda good right now! :rofl


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

I hate having to deal with winter bedding! My dream is to have a raised expanded metal floor and some BED areas. I don't do bedding in the summer but we have a lot of cold nasty weather her and often 5 feet of snow so the goats litterally just LIVE in the barn. Ack! I love the wood pellets they work great and smell wonderful but I hate spending money on it!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Linda, mine doesn't get ammonia smell unless I haven't put enough straw on top...that's what you have to do, just keep adding more to it. However, my quonset hut is really well ventilated...the goat end is open, and actually, the shop side is totally open right now too...but will have a door installed soon, at least I hope so because that's the side that most of the wind blows through.


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

That is what I will do this weekend Nancy  I'm gonna lime it really good, put a nice thick layer of shavings and use a bunch of straw on top of that. Maybe I will mix in some cedar too? into the shavings part that is.


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## Dav (Apr 26, 2011)

I have cement floors that I scraped clean last week, I used about six inches of shavings to start with this spring, two goats ,one goat per pen 8x8, there has been no smell, have only added a little hay to the corner where they sheep once in while. There were not really wet spots, but of course it was a little damp next to the concrete, The floors have about half inch drop in eight feet to the outside wall with a drain hole, haven't noticed any urine draining out though.

So I will try just cleaning them out only twice a year.
Now I will put hay feeders inside for the winter so the wasted hay is not wasted, but added to the bedding (shavings), which is not wasted eather as it is composted. This is the same thing I do with the dozen chickens, except I add a few shavings once in a while instead of hay. The chicken bed gets about 6" deep over the winter & I think it's a good thing have between the chicks & that freezing cold concrete. I dought I could get away with twice a year in warmer climate, but I have to heat my house at least six months a year.
Dav


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