# We Hates First Fresheners!



## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

My young doe, Patience, who kidded Tuesday has the worst milkroom manners of any first freshener I've dealt with in years. To begin she's always been "wilder than an acre of snakes" when it comes to handling her for any reason. So I have to chase her around and catch her up just to get her in the milkroom. Once in the milkroom she jumps , kicks, bucks, and does anything she can when it comes to handling her udder. Then I have to drape an arm over her back and struggle just to get the inflations on which she immediately tries to kick off. Because of my unbalanced position (draping an arm over her back and leaning on her) she almost threw me over the milkstand stand this morning. I tried hobbling her, but she have nothing put on her leg. One thing Patience doesn't know is that I'm more stubborn and more persistant than she is. She will learn to milk. She will do it twice a day, and soon she'll be doing it with a milking buddy. Hopefully then, peace will return to my milkroom.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Oh dear! Some of them are really hard to manage, but you are right. If you keep at it, she will learn.  I have one now that is fine about being milked and all but if I touch her legs to set her up for a picture or just to get her legs out of the way for milking, she goes berserk.


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

I had one of those..... She inspired this:

http://noodlevilleadventures.blogspot.com/2012/03/noodleville-bloody-battle-of-wills.html?m=1

Blood was literally spilled before we resolved our battle!

I had a doe kid on Mother's Day..... FF and she was dam raised (I swear I'll never buy another dam raised doe!!) & is scared of her own shadow.... Was really dreading milking her, but suprisingly she LOVES the stand, and doesn't budge.... Still nuts off the stand, but at least milking is easy....

Hang in there, you have my sympathies!!!!


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks Crystal, your blog brought a smile to me after a wince of pain over your broken nose. Patience will learn given enough time--I've seen it before. I require good manners of my milking does. I expect it so even in the worst of weather I can call them in by name if they are not already lined up.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

You cracked me up Crystal not wanting to bloody your barn towels! Hydrogen peroxide will remove blood stains btw.

What I do for a really bad one is take a piece of rope and tie it *tight* (wimpy girl tight, not manly tight) around the back leg above the hock to put pressure on the tendon. Then I pull that leg way back and tie it. Really really bad ones may thrash around a bit. I just stand back until they are done. (I've never had one hurt herself. They are smarter than that.) Then I milk them. They learn they will be milked and will not be allowed to play games. I don't have to do that very many times.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Ah man- I feel your pain! I have a doe that knows how to send me right over the edge.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I have 2 that were like that. The battles were tense! Treats and grain only on the milk stand went a long way towards helping them and now (2 months later) they race to the milk stand and stand still for me to milk. 

But yeah, some of those FF's are such a major PAIN! They will try the patience of a saint!


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## LSP Farm (Dec 4, 2011)

I have one right now, she locks them up going to the milk stand, I have to pick her up and put her on the stand and while trying to get her head locked usually results in her going strait up.
But on a good note, I have another FF that has turned into a dream to milk. She was Dam raised and wild as a march hair. Now she follows me around like a bottle baby and I don't even have to lock her head in on the milk stand. She's my avatar because she currently on my favorite list. The other FF? Not so much. Ugh


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Lol, I have a FF that when my hubby tried to put on the inflations the other night, rewarded him with the point of her rear hock about a 1/4 inch above his eye. That is NOT how we encourage DH to help us with chores!


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## sherrie (Jul 22, 2008)

I have two that I would like to throttle. Margaux is a FF. She kicks when she finished her grain and I haven't finished milking. Usually puts her foot right in the bucket - of course. :sigh I tied Margaux's legs to the stanchion and she is much better. Cessna will be a FF in June, so I have been training her to the stanchion for a few day. She knows how to get on the stanchion and where her head should be, but trying to work in the udder area is a nightmare. I tied her legs to the stanchion like I do Margaux, and she went ballistic!! She mule-kicked her back legs and at the same time twisted her body and fell to the ground - stanchion and goat on the ground. She wasn't hurt, but I was. Today she kicked me on the arm making a huge bruise. Maybe I need to breed guinea pigs. :sigh


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I use a drag rope, snapped to their D ring on the collar. A big ole knot in the end of it. You run from me and all I have to do is step in your rope. And if your nasty, well I let you get a good run at it before I stand on your rope


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I refuse to chase wild FF's around the goat yard. They get to live with a lead rope on them until they learn to come in with the other goats. Wild does who are raising kids are made to come in twice a day to tame them. I hand milk, so uncooperative does are even harder to deal with than when milking with a machine. I've sometimes had to have my DH help hold them or I've contorted myself on the milk stand to hold them in place while I milk into something small to dump into the bucket so I won't lose alot of milk. If, after a month of unsuccessfully trying to get a doe to cooperate, I know who my culls are. I've only had to cull a couple for bad milk parlor behavior.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Mine were totally wild when I got them. Now they are all lap goats. The secret? They'd sell their kids for the right treats, LOL... Took some patience and experimenting.

Kids raised here, although technically dam raised, get a lot of attention. And as soon as they are eating, they get trained to the milkstand and fake milked. I call it "playing dress up" and we do it after milking when possible.

I'm getting a different perspective this year with so many more goats here! I can see how big herds might not have time for a lot of that. Even this year, I'm having to pick and choose and give the extra attention and training mostly to the likely keepers.

I have a cute pic of 2 doelings on the milkstand at the same time, that makes it a little more efficient :lol

Its the little teats on FF that about does me in... even the ones who grow nice teats as they get into the lactation are a pain to get started with my damaged hands.


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

Patience is now standing still and letting me milk her, but getting her to the stand is still hard. I feed the milkers and drive her away from the feeder so she's getting the idea that feed only comes from the milkroom. Plus, I think the herd queen, Ebony, told Patience, "We are the herd; resistance is futile; you will be assimulated."


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Goat Town said:


> "We are the herd; resistance is futile; you will be assimulated."


That's so funny, I tell the kids that the first few days of Life. As long as they are strong and healthy, from day one, I look at their teeth, hold their feet tightly, hold and turn them every which way. Its kind of like that puppy temperament test here, LOL.

There are striking differences at just hours old. Some will stiffen, some relax, some holler... The protestors all get told "you are born into a dairy goat world, resistance is futile" and they get a kiss and cuddle only when they relax slightly. There's a lot about teaching relaxation response to dogs, with adaptation of specifics, it works for goats too.

With so many more goats here this year, I can totally see many of you laughing about this, "who has the time for that!?" and I get it... but for here, we live in very close quarters with them, they have to be dual purpose pets and producers.

The training of the goats is so much easier than those FF teeny teats... even when they grow nicely, what are your secrets for those first days/weeks?

Obviously, besides the answer "milk machine" :lol this only applies to the hand milking folks, current or previously.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

So you think our 'producers' are not also pets?

If you aren't going to use a milking machine, than you only breed does to bucks that have longer teats....you can't keep breeding does who freshen with microscopic teats and then think you are going anything because the teats get longer the older they get...it's still always going to be a little bitty tittied FF.

By increasing the percentage of Lamancha breeding down, instead of 50/50 we simply didn't have teat length issues, but then I had Sondra doing all the work for me before I got into it. We didn't have anyone with small FF teats until I used a buck that was a 50/50 breed down...shorter cannon bones, shorter teats. If you don't keep the percentage higher of your large breed to your ND...you go right back to cobby and tiny teats. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Hmmm... maybe I should go delete my post and go back to bed being sick if I'm not saying things right...

Of course lots of big farm producers are loving pets too! Your goats are just as Beloved, I didn't mean to offend anyone.

But some farms are also more weighted to livestock economic equation of what counts the most, and I just notice when visiting more normal farms that have more space that there's more leeway vs very little here, tight spaces mean tight tolerances here for some things that don't matter as much with more space. 

On the teat size, 
What you are saying about the breed %'s makes logical sense, but hasn't held up here in data. My highest %ND (75%) had nice teats even as FF, two with highest LM %'s had really teeny teats. One of those has expanded and is now easy to milk, but not for those first weeks. There's one buck locally famous for putting on big teats, I'm pretty sure he's 50/50. I'm breeding some of my older does back to full size LM for even more milk, but the teat size thing hasn't held here.

Full sisters here have *very* different teats, I think there's just so much genetic variation in the mini/hybrid mix. Of course I'm trying to breed for bigger.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I have definately seen some full size dairy breed yearlings with smaller teats than the Nigerians I used to have. My friend sold a yearling Togg with what she called kitty titties to a 4-H kid with small hands. I have a La Mancha yearling who has small teats. It must come from her sire's lines because her dam, granddam and all the other does related to her fom her dam's side have normal to large teats.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

goatkid said:


> I have definately seen some full size dairy breed yearlings with smaller teats than the Nigerians ...kitty titties...


"kitty titties" :rofl
ok, they aren't THAT hard to milk :biggrin

and some grow pretty fast, and most wind up good sized, just starting is hard... since this thread was on FF's...


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I have one ff when she kidded this year, that had to be milked with one finger! Her sister absorbed her pregnancy in Feb, but came into milk in late April/early May. When I say "came into milk" she really just had a tiny bit in there, but I decided to milk her and see what happens, if she will pick up or not...so far she is increasing all the time, but still not making very much. Anyway, her teats, having not freshened, and not had any pressure backed up to them with milk, when I first started to milk her, it pretty much literally was like milking a cat! I couldn't stop thinking about the movie Meet the Parents. She is now, after a couple weeks, up to like a finger and a half...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It is my point though, you keep them and milk them, moan and groan, but she is still there and likely her daughters.....adding them to the gene pool, so you are in essence breeding for little bitty titties. Sisters are not very related, there are few identical sisters in goats...so of course one can get great grandmothers teats that are long and should be kept, and sister has dams short tiny teats and should be culled. That is how you improve, with the doe and her progenies papers pulled. Then breed the doeling with the longer teats to a buck who has a dam who has hand milkable teats.

That to me is the difference between those who breed goats and those who have pets. You aren't willing to make the tough choices to improve the breed....perceived as, you love your goats more. So when she has kids next year, of course there will be no improvement in those kids. Function isn't a consideration when first purchasing the stock you start crossing..you can see this in how the score card is being manipulated to be all inclusive instead of making sure function comes first.

'they have to be dual purpose pets and producers.' 

Nobody is offended, just pointing out that our does who earn a living, also are pets. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

This is way off factual base if "you" is me in most of it, its waaaay twisting and mixing up what I've said. 

Hopefully its mostly some generic "you" but some of it seems pretty directed at me, and flat wrong.

"Pets" comment was only about TRAINING which was the primary topic of this thread.

I'll repeat, I was only speaking to getting thru the teat growing time. Teats here are decent to great once they grow past that early FF stage.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I have been in denial for a long time and have been telling people I have around 60 goats.. We did an actual count (Me mentally going over each pen/pasture from tiny newborns in kid pens to bucks and milkers, and my son adding it all up) and we came to 107. Oopsie dosie.... And (this according to my daughter who is home from college and my assistant farmer this summer) they are all treated like pets and/or diva's and she feels like they are ranked way above her. I told her that's very true, because they produce and make some money while she...well only costs money!! :biggrin

But to the point: I think goats really are a type of animal that demands to be handled in a way that's in between a pet and a farm animal. I have had cows before and they are more distant, happy to be fed and taken care of, but not requiring that extra attention. The goats do need some petting and talking to, at least it seems that way. That said, with as many as I have, I do not pet every single animal here for 10 minutes a day, but all kids get a lot more attention than just having a lambar thrown at 'em 3 times a day, dry does and bucks get one or two walk throughs (and talk to's) by me every day and milkers of course get handled, milked, talked to, and usually petted while I load or walk through holding pen/parlor, and there, too I walk through and or by if it isn't milking time. So all my does DO act like pets and so far my own FF are no problem whatsoever in the parlor, even if they have never seen it before they enter it after their first kidding. Everyone here wears a collar from babies on up and they learn to be handled and trust that when taken by the collar they can follow and nothing bad will happen to them. I do believe that it's my job to keep on earning that trust and even when I'm busy, I force myself to always be patient with an animal that is young and scared, because I believe that if I lose it and hit or yell at someone, I'm going to have problem does. I'm big on the 'being an animal handler' issue, because I see what it does if you're not. I have a doe here from someone who let's a very impatient guy milk for her. When the doe got here she was a freak in the parlor. I had never had anything like that. She'd come in in between her herdmates, but went nuts if you tried to predip/milk/postdip (jumping, kicking, etc.). This is a three year old, not a FF! Anyway, I stayed calm with her and it took quite awhile of not getting upset when the teatdip flew in my face or my hand got kicked, but now, 2 months later she is completely calm when in the parlor and no trouble whatsoever. I also got some FFs that were raised at another farm, scared of...well....everything!! I have a parlor without head locks (don't need them) and have large breeds (Saanen and LaMancha, mainly). These are underfed Alpines, tiny! They are smaller then my 1/2 yr old unbred Saanen kids, so I have to say I was a bit baffled when I let these FFs in my parlor and they were standing in any direction, PLUS, when I did get them in right and I tried to hang the milk claw under, they walked right through the head opening into the feed through... :/ It Took 5 milkings to get this straightened out, but now they stand still and behave, even though they know they can walk away from me if they want to, they just don't! They are still in what we call 'the crazies pen', but they really don't deserve that title anymore!

So in short: hang in there, stay calm, earn your animal's trust from kid to FF and things will work wether you are a 3 goat pet lover or a big, bad goat 'producer' with 107 divas....


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

LLB101 said:


> Obviously, besides the answer "milk machine" :lol this only applies to the hand milking folks, current or previously.


Machine milking isn't the magic wand that cures all milking problems. Nancy, I think, said so in an earlier post in this thread.


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

Patience continues to show improvement. In fact she now has a milking buddy, another FF named Serious. Although I still have to lead Patience to the milkroom, she and Serious milk out pretty evenly so they are a good pair. Peace is returning to my milkroom and it's so nice to milk three sets of two.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

Most FF settle down eventually. So far, I haven't had an ounce of trouble from my Mancha FF. When I had Nubians, they took a little longer to settle on the stand, but only a few days. 

My one FF this year is a Mancha, she has always stood like a statue through milking. She started out with teats that could only be milked with one finger. Two months into her lactation, she has perfect, comfortable to milk, teats.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Audra I have come to the conclusion over the years that until you deal with Nubians, you have no idea. Having had most other breeds or crosses of them, including minature LaMancha's....yep you have no idea. A perfectly normal tame bottle kid who loves you, kids, and you and the milkroom become the devil...my husband insists that it is brain damage do to disbudding....but then he also insists, how would you be able to know if a Nubian had brain damage  I mean running to the edge of the property, ears flying like you are going to eat her alive!


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Haha! Yes Vicki, my LaManchas are way too smart to act like that.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Agreed Nicki! When we didn't renew or milk contract and my oldest daughter graduated High School and went to college, I picked Nubian's monetarily over the LaManchas. Now in my old age  nice calm, milk forever on air LaManchas sounds pretty darn good!


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

Hahahaa! Yes..annoying to have to admit your own breed are spazzes...I have a couple obers now and the difference is pretty obvious. They are smart and calm..and quiet. Also personable but not needy. I'm so tempted to add more but I'm still on the fence about having two breeds. I have two yearling nubians freshening in the next month and we have been working on milkstand manners etc. They are already driving me crazy.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Treats have been mentioned but I never realized how powerful they are till I gave my two milkers some expired toasted almonds about a week ago. They went crazy over them. One of the milkers would always play the 'catch me if you can' game. Now both of them can't get in the milk shed fast enough for some almonds. I'm moving to some expired peanuts today, I hope they work as well.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Hmmm... A cross of NDs and Nubians, a Rx for spazz. :lol. Over all the three I trained this year have done very well. They are no more ornery than the two senior does. What I don't understand is why I can milk a goat for two months without issue, and then one day she gives me that "look" and takes off running at milking time. Or jumps off the milk stand like normal, and then instead of heading for the door like usual, she looks back, gives me "the look", and takes off for another part of the barn. I know Beauty thinks she's got me trained. She's been messing with me for two weeks. The look on her face is hilarious. You can totally tell she's enjoying throwing me for a loop. It's totally "na-na na-na boo-boo". :lol


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## LSP Farm (Dec 4, 2011)

Halo-M Nubians said:


> Hahahaa! Yes..annoying to have to admit your own breed are spazzes...I have a couple obers now and the difference is pretty obvious. They are smart and calm..and quiet. Also personable but not needy. I'm so tempted to add more but I'm still on the fence about having two breeds. I have two yearling nubians freshening in the next month and we have been working on milkstand manners etc. They are already driving me crazy.


I have a Ober than runs like the wind when I try to catch her to milk.. Funny thing is, she makes a circle and does a nose dive into the milk stand.. Works for me. =)


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

My first year milking I had two FF and they were both a PITA on the milkstand. Not one problem doe since them. <shrug> They hop right on the stand and are all business.  I have two FF this year, a yearling and a two year old. Neither one has even lifted a leg from day one. The yearling is a spaz before she gets on the stand. She hasn't quite figured out to wait her turn and she paces the fenceline--fast. Then when it is her turn, she runs for the stand and then back to me (closing the gate), grabs my hand with her mouth and then sprints back to the stand and flys onto the thing like a horse jumping a fence. LOL She's a chow hound and does the tongue thing--like FEED ME NOW!! and once she gets her grain she's a princess and never flinches. I have two dry yearlings, that after they get their monthly hoof trimming, they think they're in the milk string. LOL I always trim them after milking, so for about a week they think they get a *turn* on the stand too. :/ Crazies!! hehe


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

LOL. That is what makes goats so "interesting" to work with, Denise!


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## Sans Gene Goats (May 15, 2011)

swgoats said:


> Hmmm... A cross of NDs and Nubians, a Rx for spazz. :lol.


Nigerians? Spazz? reeeaaallly? *grin*



Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> ... nice calm, milk forever on air LaManchas sounds pretty darn good!


Yes it does! When we decided to add a "big girl" to the herd, I went with a LaMancha


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## Dav (Apr 26, 2011)

Daisy,my FF .
Ive been getting a cup of milk twice a day for a month, after a cup she starts kicking & I stop milking ( she had tiny teats to start, now there good sized), anyway the three milkings she got her foot in the bucket everytime to ruin the milk.
I was thinking of putting her to sheep, not worth the aggravation.
But this morning I thought I'd try one last time.
I hobbled her, she kicked quite a lot, especially if she run out of gran/alfafa pellets, but I got a whole quart of milk. WoW!
She may live a while yet.
Dav


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

:lol. I hand milk into quart freezer containers. I milk one handed, and hold the container in my other. Helps prevent the hoof on the milk thing. I cry over spilled milk :lol


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

swgoats said:


> :lol. I hand milk into quart freezer containers. I milk one handed, and hold the container in my other. Helps prevent the hoof on the milk thing. I cry over spilled milk :lol


 I do this too, until they get the hang of it.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Agreed Nicki! When we didn't renew or milk contract and my oldest daughter graduated High School and went to college, I picked Nubian's monetarily over the LaManchas. Now in my old age  nice calm, milk forever on air LaManchas sounds pretty darn good!


Yep, after having Nubians, LaManchas are like goat heaven. They kid, we milk them out the first time right in the stall, untied. We haven't had one fuss yet. Next milking she goes up on the stand. They always do so nicely. Milk lots, don't need a ton of feed to do it or keep condition, are quiet, sane, intelligent, and sweet. Love my Manchas.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

I have two of those members of the itty bitty tittie committee this year! Thankfully I have a milking machine! And I'm happy to report that after dragging our three FFs into the milk room for several days and having DH help me boost them up onto their stanchions, all are crowding the milk room door in the morning and evening yelling, "Me first!" "No, ME first!" LOL


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

LOL Nicole, my first thought when I read your original post was, she's earning her name! She's testing your patience for sure!

I've dealt with my share of wild FFs, but thankfully, this year, all have been AWSOME on the milkstand. I had no fights with them and they all just stood there like old pros. And I have 9 first fresheners this year. I did have 2 who, after a month of behaving perfectly would stomp when they were stripped out, but after a couple scoldings they settled down. I was/am really happy!

As far as small teats, yes, you have to breed it out. But you CAN keep a doe with tiny teats and improve it her her daughters. I have several animals to prove that.


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

I am pleased to announce that Patience has graduated her "doe in training" program. This morning she and her milking buddy lined up for their rotation through the milkroom without being chased, dragged, cajoled, or even being asked. Once in the milkroom Patience exhibited perfect manners which has been the case for a week now. It took her ten days to complete the program and perfect peace has returned to my milking operation.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

That is great!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

A little patience with Patience did the trick!


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## Liss (Jul 20, 2010)

These are old post and apparently an age old problem. I have Nigerians and a FF. She was trying to back up and get her head out of the head gate. Laying down, pretty chokey so that didn't last long! Then she kept clipping the top of my hand with her hoof, well, more like a skin removing sliding motion. . Ok, I tell myself, be patient, be persistent, don't think about how cheap milk is or the fact she graced me with 3 bucks. Lol I'm remembering a month of this, boo hoo, then things should calm down. :/ 

I do worry over the grain though. She eats faster than I milk and I start off with two cups. I worry about her having a glut of grain in her belly. I had a neighbor that was a master milker! She would milk out her Nigerians before they finished eating and have thick foam on the top. Sigh.... I wish...


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