# Soap ingredient question...OT, sort of!



## Island Creek Farm (Jun 16, 2010)

Not sure if you wanted this in the soap section...feel free to move it if need be!

I can't use goat milk soap OR any commercial glycerine soap due to personal chemistry issues. Someone said they had seen an article somewhere about this? If so, can you PLEASE post a link? I am trying to narrow down WHICH ingredient is causing the issues so I can use my own soap! Making batch after batch isn't really an option, as it's getting pricey. 

I did have something interesting happen the other day, maybe connected? I was washing our Corgi, Widget, with a new dog shampoo I got...all natural. About half way into his bath, the ammonia fumes hit...HE WAS HAVING THE SAME ISSUE! The ONLY similar ingredients to my goat milk soap was "coconut based cleansers". If coconut oil is the culprit, what could I use in it's place?

Anyone?


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

If you are allergic or otherwise sensitive to coconut, you could use palm kernel oil instead. Run through a lye calculator, of course, but it lends similar qualities to soap. Is there some commercially available soap that you CAN use? If so, I would look at the ingredients to figure out what is in there, and what is not. For example, sodium tallowate means soap made from tallow, sodium cocoate means soap made from coconut oil, and so forth. If, for example, a soap that you ordinarily use without issue has sodium cocoate in it, then you know it's not the coconut oil that's causing your problems.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Also, was there any fragrance in either the goat milk soap or the dog soap? It could be that you are allergic to the components in certain fragrances. I had a customer that had horrible body odor problems if she used my Orange Blossom, but not with any other fragrance.

Another thing to consider is glycerine- is there any in your dog soap? Commercially prepared soaps remove most of the glycerine, handcrafted soap does not, and of course glycerine soaps have lots added.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Coconut oil can certainly be an issue for some people. I'd start there, especially if the glycerine soap has coconut in it as well. If it doesn't, then like Michelle says, you may be allergic to glycerine. Miller Soap (http://millersoap.com/soapdesign.html#Properties) has a good chart with the different properties of soapmaking oils as well as a saponification value chart you can use to swap one oil for another.


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## Island Creek Farm (Jun 16, 2010)

Its been so long since I've even looked at a glycerine soap...but I remember it being ANY of them. Also, both unscented and scented GM soaps produce the odor, so I'm guessing it has to be a main ingredient and not a scent additive. I can use ANY liquid soap, shampoo and ANY bar soap as long as it isn't a glycerine (clear bar) or GM. Can use Ivory, Softsoap, Dial, Lever, Dove and so on.

It was just since my dog (?!?!) had the same reaction with a soap it triggered the thought process that it might be something in both the homemade goatsmilk soap and the natural dog shampoo. Here are the dog shampoo ingredients...

Water, coconut-based cleansers, eucalyptus essence, peppermint essence, olive oil squaline (preservative). It smells fantastic! But the only similar ingredient is the coconut based ones. Might wash him with a GM bar and see if he has the same reaction to that too. Pretty bad that my dog and I both have the same problem!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Why not just make an all olive oil bar of soap with water, and see if it bothers you. Saponification is a complete chemical change of oils and butters with lye, to soap. Not even a chemist can pull apart a bar of soap and guess what butters and oils were used. I can see being allergic to the additives (scent even essential oils, clays, micas, FD&C colorants that most use) but to oils that are no longer present? There is little natural in melt and pour soaps or in liquid detergent sold as liquid soap/shampoo etc.. and the ingredients you put up don't make shampoo. Vicki


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2012)

I would try a lard and olive oil based soap.. using only those two oils... no fragrance... 
will make a nice hard bar with conditioning for you..
Barb


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

If it is a reaction to glycerin (which could be added to the "coconut-based cleansers" or those 'cleaners' might not have the glycerin extracted...) then that would explain why there is a reaction to GM & glycerin soap, but not commercial bars, and making a very plain soap would not change that- the good part of handcrafted soap is that it has no glycerin removed, and glycerin is a natural by-product in our soap from the chemical reaction. Have you tried handcrafted soap that is not GM? That would be the only way to rule out glycerin- try a product that should have just as must in it as GM soap.

If all natural soap is superfatted, there are always some fatty acids left that are not 100% soap- leftovers from the chemical reaction- and there is no way to tell which fatty acids will remain. The sodium hydroxide molecules can only attach a certain number of bonds when becoming the new soap molecule.

Are you sure it was the dog having the reaction, and not you from having the shampoo on your hands and possibly arms?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Michelle if there was oil left over after saponification it would be oily on the outside of your bar. I so wish LabRats post on the dish weren't erased when she left. Vicki


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Vicki - if that were so, it wouldn't explain why people are allergic to soaps that have coconut oil in them (I had a well known Togg breeder and ADGA judge tell me she couldn't touch the soaps I had donated to the sponsorship baskets several years ago because one of their ingredients was coconut oil - she said she would break out in hives almost immediately). Nor would it explain why soaps made with some oils have different types of lathers, different "after feels" or are more conditioning or drying than others. I don't know who Lab Rat is, but it sure would have been interesting to have read what she had to say.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The properties of butters and oils is what effects the conditioning, bubbles, lather, creaminess etc...but once in the lye, they are forever not coconut oil or corn oil or crisco. Super-fatting is impossible, first you can't pick and choose which butters or oils the lye will react with and secondly if there is too much oil for the lye to react with the soap will have free oil left....just like if you don't have enough butters or oils, you have free lye left. It's a very simple process.

Lab Rat is a chemist who used to post on the Dish, she would calmly explain this over and over amongst other things that are controversial because they are used in marketing, and not fact...to the point she one day erased most of her post and left, sent emails to some of us who were nice to her, but she was done. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I know what you mean, Caroline. I was thinking about this today. Different oils/fats DO create different properties in soap. 

So Vicki, just because a chemist cannot pick out what oils are in a soap because the chemistry has changed (assuming that is a fact), does that absolutely mean that someone with a known allergy to one of those oils couldn't still be allergic to it in the soap? And what type of equipment was used to try to decipher these elements from the soap? All equipment is not created equal. So just because someone sent it to a "chemist" doesn't mean they had equipment that could handle the testing. Just saying.

For example (and sorry, I can only relate to metallurgy), pure calcium is a metal. When making pure calcium, you use aluminum and hot lime (CaO - calcium oxide). You heat it to a certain temp for a certain period of time (kind of like soap) and you end up with (almost) pure calcium metal. Actually, the chemical reaction takes place in a chamber and the bulk of it is calcium, but then you've got residual elements on one end of this lump of calcium (mostly calcium aluminate). When you test the "pure calcium" which is not 100% even though it "homogenized" during the heating, you still end up with some elements of aluminum (and other elements, as well) even though the reaction took place.

So just like in soap, why can't there be residual properties of certain fatty acids that a person might be allergic to that are the same or similar to the known allergen?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Going back to the original post, Amanda, can't you just buy glycerin, put it on as a test patch toskin, and see if it really is the glycerin that you are allergic to? Same with the coconut?

Also remember, there is no such thing as an "all natural" soap, shampoo or whatever cleanser. You have to have NaOH or KOH.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Oh, oh, oh!!!! And so what is, EXACTLY, the chemistry of soap? Is every single bar the same no matter what the ingredients?


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Cindy- Yes & no.  Here is a good illustration of what soap is- in this case mostly about potassium soaps, but the same applies to sodium soaps (typical GM bar soap) and their differences are covered on this page.



> Most naturally occuring fats produce a mixture of different salts of fatty acids when they are converted to soap.


http://science.csustan.edu/nhuy/chem1002/soapexp.htm

Each oil you use in soap has a different fatty acid profile, and even they all become soap in the same way, the different fatty acids have different properties, thus one soap will be harder than another (palmitic or stearic acid). This site has a good chart showing the normal profile range for each soap oil.
http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/properties-soapmaking-oils

If you want a really in depth study (not all soap related, but fascinating!) check out this page:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/fatsoils/fatsoils2.html
This paragraph for instance, explains the science behind why coconut oil & palm kernel oil make bubbly, cleaning lather- the acid profile is more soluble as soap.


> Examination of this table shows that butter ranks with palm kernel oil and coconut oil as having a very high saponification number. This is due to the fact that its triglycerids contain appreciable quantities of myristic acid and small quantities of lauric acid, both of which when they form soap combine with relatively more sodium than the more common acids of fats. These acids occur in undecomposed butter in chemical combination as triglycerids. Their sodium soaps are quite soluble in water. The high saponification number of coconut oil and palm kernel oil is due to the large proportion of lauric acid and myristic acid that they contain. These oils therefore yield quite soluble soaps.


There are chemical assays that can be run to tell what fatty acids are in a soap, which will not tell you which oils were used to make it, since all oils have differing % of different fatty acids, but you could know if it had castor oil (the only source of ricinoleic acid) and you could guess at some others. For all of us handcrafted GM soapers, though, this is not important!
I will now stop torturing you all!  :lol


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

No torture, at all, Michelle (at least not for me). 

So is it possible that Amanda is allergic to certain fatty acids? That's kind of where I was going in my previous post.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Thanks Michelle! No torture for me either. I tested out of chemistry in college (received hours without taking classes) so this subject always interests me. I've always been kind of a mad scientist;-)


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I am glad! I love researching stuff...just for fun, and since I make soap, I have an excuse, right? Yes, she can be allergic to specific fatty acids- that is why some people are sensitive to coconut for example- the properties that make the bubbly lather are specific to coconut & palm kernel oils, so they will be present in the finished soap. If they weren't, there would be no bubbly. 

I am liking the idea of a self test skin patch of glycerin though (great idea!), and it is the first thing I would rule out.


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