# what is your preferred method of castration?



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

And pre-/after-care?


----------



## Jryan (Nov 30, 2010)

Banding. For everything that can be banded! No fuss, no real treatment either. You band them, turn them lose and at some point you'll realize they just fell off. It's clean, I think pretty painless, and easy!


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If you have someone to show you how to do it, cutting is super simple. A disposable scalpel at birth or even a few weeks old, grab the scrotum and squeeze so the testicles bulge under the skin and make a quick slit about 3 inches long, pop the testicles through the hole one at a time, pull on them so you can see the cords and scrape them with the scalpel. Spray with any kind of wound dressing and your done. A super way of wethering if you are going to have bucklings nursing dams with their sisters still on mom also.


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

I've heard - at least I think I've heard? that it's better to just yank the testicles out rather than cutting? Scraping doesn't sound quite like either. Not sure what you mean - what does scraping do?

Is one method more or less likely to result in infection? Are tetanus concerns addressed same as discussed in disbudding thread?

Answers lead to more questions!


----------



## Jryan (Nov 30, 2010)

Haven't cut goats but I know with horses and cattle, they do require a tetanus shot. Would think the same would apply. Also know about a million people who don't give tetanus shots to their calves and haven't had a problem. We no longer cut anything unless we have to. we much prefer banding. 
If you were keeping boys and girls of breeding age together that you didn't want bred- I definately see the use for cutting though. Takes care of the issue immediately.


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

We always cut our Boer bucklings/ Show wethers. It is by far the most humane and safest way to castrate (and this from several vets as well).

Only thing we do differently than Vicki is that we cut off the bottom of the scrotum, about 3/4 Inch. We only pull the testicles, no scraping. We spray with Schreiners horse spray and we're done. Oh, and we use a box cutter with a fresh/clean razor blade. We castrate the bottle calves the exact same way.

The kids are uncomfortable for about an hour at most - no infection problems, no tetanus either (we do vaccinate with CDT at 3 and 6 weeks).


----------



## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

No stitches or anything hugh? Is there much bleeding with this procedure? I band as well, and yes, their is pain with banding, they do grind their little teeth and they do cry for a while afterwards. They are fine with it the next day, but that day is awful for them. I would love to cut, and may do so this year. Hey Ziggy, do you cut? Your close enough I could pop over and see you do it


----------



## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

We band the kids also...I'm going to be banding earlier this year. I waited until almost 3 mos and some of the boys would barely fit in the bands! LOL


----------



## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

We band here. I do it on bucklings that nurse their dams and have never found any of them able to breed the does in the pen. By the time they've reached the age where they could breed, the testicles have fallen off. he only aftercare I've done is to give a little banamine to the occasional kid who seems uncomfortable several hours after the procedure or really hurting because we also disbudded at the time.


----------



## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

We band. Not opposed to cutting, but dh wants to see it done first... so we band.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

My favorite way is burdizzo. It's all done quickly, no blood, no cuts, no waiting.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You don't cut the cords, it will cause bleeding, you just scrape them. And I was taught on pigs  Doing it young you have maternal antibody from the colostrum of your vaccinated does, so no need to vaccinate wethers who are going to be meat.


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

Opinions are all over the place! I'm favoring cutting. Just the idea of the burdizzo is giving me major heebeejeebies. *shivers*



> no need to vaccinate wethers who are going to be meat


What if they're not going to be meat? Would you vax then?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Not with antitoxin, just with CD&T toxoid at 6, 9 and then I do one more vaccination after 12 weeks when I know I am keeping them. But my adult girls are vaccinated. And I don't make wethers


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Not with antitoxin, just with CD&T toxoid at 6, 9 and then I do one more vaccination after 12 weeks when I know I am keeping them. But my adult girls are vaccinated.


*nods*



Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> And I don't make wethers


I know. *points to self* Vegetarian! See disbudding thread, re: my bleeding-heartness. I can't eat them, and I just can't... sell them to eat. I did suggest we could maybe feed them to the dogs, but rest of the family vetoed that idea, and I can't say I'm sorry. So, any wethers I can't find good pet or working homes for, I'll be stuck with... forever. Which is the main reason I really don't want to be breeding much at all.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

So can you band a kid at birth?


----------



## Loden Farms (Dec 21, 2010)

I've watched my vet do so many cat neuters the same way, I'd never take a male animal to be neutered if I could restrain it, lol. Just a tight grip on each side, a light slip of the scalpel, pop those buggers out, pull them out/off. It sort of has the same effect of when a momma animal cuts the cord on young if that makes sense, its not a cut that would bleed out. You can, if you want a neater, no strings hanging look, tie them (testicle cords) up with thread after you pull them out away from the sack (you'd want to use hemastats to clamp just above where you were going to tie the thread), and then cut below the thread and use some NEZ puffer on them and let them go. You can get the NEZ puffer at atwoods or TSC. Any antibiotic spray would work though, granulex spray works wonders too. This is what our Vet does for most of the neuters now. 
Yes, you can band at birth, you will probably still need someone to hold the baby though. And make sure you don't get teats in the banded area


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

nogoatsyet, why don't you look into a packbred buck and marketing for pack goats? A well raised, sizable, and friendly wether at 6 months to a a year can bring around $250 - $500 in the right circles. One breeder I know is selling bottle babies for $225. Marketing...


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

and most pack goat people want horns.


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

Skeeter, I do in fact plan to train wethers to cart and pack. Harness makes more sense to me - plenty of people drive miniature horses, so why not goats? Aren't mules more practical than goats for packing? They can carry a lot more, and a mule will fight a mountain lion. Don't think goats have much option other than to be eaten, and maybe they'd be more likely to attract predators.. I actually know nothing about packing, and haven't seen a lot of information online. If you can point me at some good sites, I'd really appreciate it. 

What breeds and crosses work well for that? I'm not planning to breed more than one doe per year, so I don't want to invest in a buck just yet. 

Why do pack people like horns? I'd much rather disbud a baby than dehorn later when it turns out nobody wants my horned goat.


----------



## Jryan (Nov 30, 2010)

Well, after reading everyone's opinions, we may just have to cut one buck and see. At least the goats are smaller and easier to fight than a 1000lb horse (the only animals we still cut) or a 400lb calf (why we started banding them). I still think in theory the banding would be easier but now I'll have to try and see.


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

Be sure to let us know what you think after having tried both!


----------



## Jryan (Nov 30, 2010)

It may be quite a while but will let you know! We have 2 baby bucks now - one will for sure stay a buck and stay with us. I like his comformation, love his color, and he's out of a doe who gives a lot of milk and has a really nice udder. After our next doe kids, depending on what she has, we may have one to cut but I'm hoping for a doeling. The other boy we have now is still in limbo on what his fate will be.


----------



## mathewsfive (May 2, 2010)

nogoatsyet said:


> I actually know nothing about packing, and haven't seen a lot of information online. If you can point me at some good sites, I'd really appreciate it.


 I have a weather now that I am training to be a pack goat. You can order a booklet for about $8 I think that has everything you need to know for training and such, and what you are looking for in a goat (breed, build, age and such) on caprine supply website. They may have one on Jeffers as well. Both I have found to be good places to find what I am looking for.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

But a doe can do anything a wether can, and give you milk and kids. I don't really get the idea of wethers other than food. On most farms you can see the money pit of unriden/unused horses, unsold/unbutchered wethered and intact males. Don't get sucked into the romantic 'ideas' of homesteading and having animals, it's too expensive anymore, each animal has to pay it's way and make a meaningful contribution to your homestead...or at least admit it's a pipe dream or lawn ornament


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

The reasoning behind packgoats has many points. They can go places that horses and mules can't get into. They do not tear up the land like large animals. They can eat everything they need on the trail so no packing in food for them. They do not have to be kept on a lead rope like other stock, freeing up your hands. They are user freindly. They are cheaper to keep than large livestock. They don't require a horse trailer, a large barn stall, shoes, coggins tests, or large amounts of feed. Most people can keep a pair on an average lot with a couple of large dog houses and a small shed.
The people who use them are hikers. The goats aren't running behind a horse. They hike at about 3 miles per hour like a human. Mules tend to walk at about 5 miles an hour, usually right over top of the person trying to lead it. Also most of a mules load is his own food. I haven't worked llamas so I can't comment on them. I do know I see more goats in the woods than I do llamas...
Vicki, many people have does on their pack teams. I have one that I work with until she is giving about a quart per milking. This is just enough for our morning oatmeat, yogurt for lunch, and hot chocolate in the evening. She has a very small tight udder though. I'd hate to see a big floppy udder some of the places we've found ourselves. We also have to leave her at home when she's coming into heat in fall as buck deer in rut are not nice in your camp trying to breed your goat.


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

Skeeter! Thank you for that explanation, it was very helpful. But I'm still going to see if I can sell my one or two wethers a year (please, universe, do not give me quad bucklings) before thinking about getting into the pack-goat breeding business.

So, no websites you'd recommend?

Vicki, I think we just have to accept that your and my motivations are, um, somewhat different.


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Predaters acually seem to be less a problem to them than you'd think. Bears just simply don't like the smell of them and usually avoid them. One does get curious once in a while but, they always seem to leave without causing trouble. Cougars could be a larger problem. I've never had any problems and don't know of anyone who has ever had a goet killed on the trail by one. The scariest thing out there is the relocated wolves. They come right in on a hiker and pace you. Really can freak you out good. I think the big thing is that the goats don't run away to set off the chain reaction. These goats are raised in the woods and do learn to protect themselves by their actions. They stand firm, they know their person has their back.
I'd say packgoat people are fairly evenly divided on the horn issue. Most breeders require a deposit on a goat before it's born. This way the horn issue can be settled a head of time. You could require that the purchase price is payed before 3 days old if they want horns. Oh and most people use swiss crosses. Oberhasli and saanen is popular this year because of a new breeder. Mine are a pure saanen, a saanen/alpine boer, and a LaMancha/Alpine. I also have a LaMancha kid and the little nubian in my avatar.
Info-here's a start
napga.org
butthead pack goats
northwest pack goats
http://goattracksmagazine.com/bookstore.html
http://www.packgoatforum.com/


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

:rofl
I was still writing my book. Here's my boys.


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

Wow, thank you! And I love that picture. <3!

I'm not too worried about bears (they seem shy here), or wolves (we don't have wolves - interesting about them following people, I've heard of that before and it would be terrifying - but do they actually attack? *curious*) but we have mountain lions, and I've heard of them taking goats right around here. 

Good point about them not having to carry their own feed.

Hope the LaMancha kid works well for you! Since that's what I expect to have. :lol


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

The only place that we've run into wolves is in Idaho. I think they are scary myself but, they've not yet attacked any of the goat packers I know over there. They call them the 'government dogs' because they watch you so close. With the cougars, I think that you're talking about goats being taken out of peoples pens and pastures? That's a different scenario than a goat on the trail, with his person and usually a couple of dogs, or in camp with a fire and a person and the same dogs. 
The little LaMancha? He is going to be excellent. I've never met a breed with better work ethic.








And the dogs love it all, as only dogs can


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

skeeter said:


> The only place that we've run into wolves is in Idaho. I think they are scary myself but, they've not yet attacked any of the goat packers I know over there.


Oh, good.



> They call them the 'government dogs' because they watch you so close.


I thought it was because they were government introduced/protected - of course I saw the term the first time this evening reading forum you linked. 



> With the cougars, I think that you're talking about goats being taken out of peoples pens and pastures?


Yeah.



> That's a different scenario than a goat on the trail, with his person and usually a couple of dogs, or in camp with a fire and a person and the same dogs.


Ok, I've not heard of wolves attacking people, but I definitely have heard of mountain lions doing so - joggers and such, and pets. Though honestly, I'm as likely to get them at home as I am hiking, here.



> The little LaMancha? He is going to be excellent. I've never met a breed with better work ethic.


Awesome! Now go convince all the pack people they want LaMancha babies. :rofl Seriously, he is beautiful.

The dogs sure do look happy.


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

nogoatsyet said:


> skeeter said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Ok, it didn't work quite right. My replies are inside the boxes. Must be the stupid computers fault. :lol


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

Well, I won't kill an animal unless I need to to survive or to protect my family, or unless it's suffering without reasonable hope of recovery. I've been vegetarian for ... *counts* 24 years, so at this point I'm pretty sure I don't need meat to survive. Cougar in the woods minding its own business, eating deer? Live and let live. But in my pasture threatening my children, pets, livestock? - that's another story. Realistically, though, I doubt I could get the gun from the locked horse trailer, out of its locked box and unlock the trigger and unlock the ammo and load the damn thing and aim and actually hit anything smaller than a barn in any useful timeframe, so. I will be yelling and waving my arms and throwing sticks and rocks.


----------



## Jryan (Nov 30, 2010)

Lol... Love your description of trying to get ready to shoot something Ann Marie! Made me laugh!


----------



## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

My girls and I are members of the pack goat club in NorCal :biggrin Shasta Pack Goat Club We are very easy to find on Facebook, and I think the website address is http://www.freewebs.com/shastapackgoats still. There are pictures up of the hike we took last Sunday- Rebah & I went without goats so we could leave early.

Except that I was a softy and let Rebah keep a wether this year, we pack with does. We don't have room in our herd for single purpose animals... Babbit, Rebah's pack doe, is a huge Nubian (220+) and a great pack goat- never quits, almost silent, and nothing phases her. She is bred Boer for saleable market kids. Phoebe's pack doe, Eleanor, is also her dairy showmanship doe (and she placed in the top 3 in NorCal open shows last yeaar ), she has a very willing, easy going attitude.

I watched a horned goat (the only one on our hike) try to gore another goat in a string last weekend, the owner was quick to grab her, but she did leave a nasty scratch on his belly. Many of us in the Shasta group are on the no horns side of the fence! A packer I know went around all summer with a 4 inch gore healing on her arm a couple of years ago...

And oh, I prefer to band, but probably because I have never cut. :lol I also prefer to sell my wethers to someone to be humanely killed and eaten than to starve when someone gets tired of them as pets...it kind of thing happens way too often!


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

Jryan said:


> Lol... Love your description of trying to get ready to shoot something Ann Marie! *Made me laugh!*


That's because my shooting skills are laughable. :rofl


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

Aja-Sammati said:


> My girls and I are members of the pack goat club in NorCal :biggrin Shasta Pack Goat Club We are very easy to find on Facebook, and I think the website address is http://www.freewebs.com/shastapackgoats still. There are pictures up of the hike we took last Sunday- Rebah & I went without goats so we could leave early.


That was right! Looking now - not finding pictures. *woe* If I ever used FB I'd look you up on there, too, but, um, I don't.



> Rebah's pack doe, is a huge Nubian (220+) and a great pack goat- never quits, almost silent, and nothing phases her.


Cool - I was just reading how people don't think Nubians make good pack goats, but sounds like that was a myth started by someone with one goat they didn't like. 



> I watched a horned goat (the only one on our hike) try to gore another goat in a string last weekend, the owner was quick to grab her, but she did leave a nasty scratch on his belly. Many of us in the Shasta group are on the no horns side of the fence! A packer I know went around all summer with a 4 inch gore healing on her arm a couple of years ago...


*cringes* I think the above idea of requiring payment in full before disbudding day for anyone who wants a horned kid is a good one.



> And oh, I prefer to band, but probably because I have never cut. :lol


I've never done either, lol, so they sound equally unpleasant to me. Heh.



> I also prefer to sell my wethers to someone to be humanely killed and eaten than to starve when someone gets tired of them as pets...it kind of thing happens way too often!


And you're not the first I've heard this from! I do understand, just, sadly, not going to work for me. Hence the intent to breed as little as possible, and train kids to do useful things. I want the people who buy my wethers to know how to care for them and be motivated to do a good job. I can't produce more than I can find good homes for.


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I do just like Camille -- cut the bottom of the scrotum off and pull out the testes. My husband refuses to let me band anymore -- it is a lot more painful....obviously so when they all flop on the ground and cry, while the cut kids just bound off and get on with their day.

I cut two much older bucklings (like 6 months) last year, and they did just fine, though they certainly had a harder time of it than a younger kid.


----------



## LamanchaLover (Jan 11, 2010)

I don`t think banding is painful, maybe the first day but then they forget about it or it stops hurting. And the pack goat pics are very cool!


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Shasta pack goat club
http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/blueratwho/shasta2.jpg
I see a couple of LaManchas in there.


----------



## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

The black & white LM is name Moo- he is one of my favorites! The two big boys on the left are Bert & Ernie (Alpine/Nubian cross), Debbie is holding her big spotted Nubian wether, Spartacus, my daughter is holding Mara, a Saanen, Daisy, a purebred Alpine doeling has her butt to the camera, Ryan is holding a huge wether, Logan on the right (Alpine/Togg/Nubian/Boer/Saanen), & the little horned LM doe on the far right is a spitfire- knows how to use those horns! She was a rescue, and is working up to be a packgoat.


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Aja-Sammati said:


> The black & white LM is name Moo- he is one of my favorites! The two big boys on the left are Bert & Ernie (Alpine/Nubian cross), Debbie is holding her big spotted Nubian wether, Spartacus, my daughter is holding Mara, a Saanen, Daisy, a purebred Alpine doeling has her butt to the camera, Ryan is holding a huge wether, Logan on the right (Alpine/Togg/Nubian/Boer/Saanen), & the little horned LM doe on the far right is a spitfire- knows how to use those horns! She was a rescue, and is working up to be a packgoat.


Thanks!! I don't want to step on toes here. The pic was open to copy.


----------



## cowboygourmet (Mar 13, 2009)

Absolutely the best way for goats or calves! Been doing it this way for 45 years only I do it with a sharp knife. 
Roy



Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> If you have someone to show you how to do it, cutting is super simple. A disposable scalpel at birth or even a few weeks old, grab the scrotum and squeeze so the testicles bulge under the skin and make a quick slit about 3 inches long, pop the testicles through the hole one at a time, pull on them so you can see the cords and scrape them with the scalpel. Spray with any kind of wound dressing and your done. A super way of wethering if you are going to have bucklings nursing dams with their sisters still on mom also.


----------



## cowboygourmet (Mar 13, 2009)

Amen!!!!



Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> But a doe can do anything a wether can, and give you milk and kids. I don't really get the idea of wethers other than food. On most farms you can see the money pit of unriden/unused horses, unsold/unbutchered wethered and intact males. Don't get sucked into the romantic 'ideas' of homesteading and having animals, it's too expensive anymore, each animal has to pay it's way and make a meaningful contribution to your homestead...or at least admit it's a pipe dream or lawn ornament


----------



## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

It is only the best way if you are willing to cut open something that is still alive and jerk part of it's body off. I would say MOST people who have diary stock for home use are not into cutting up baby goats. Banding is going to be the choice that presents the least amt of trauma for new dairy goat owners. Remember we are talking here about keeping it simple like nothing a 12 year old would or could not do. This is cowboy stuff not homestead family milk goat activity.


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

My DD does all of the castrating... She started when she was 14 Years old. We were doing it before she took over that job - and a bit nervous the first two times (and yes my good friend showed us how the first time).

Agree that banding is easiest on the owner. Blade is easiest on the animal.

About a year ago there was an episode of this Extreme show going around YouTube (from a TV show where this guy goes out and does all these weird and dirty jobs - do you know the name of the show? We don't watch a lot of TV -we have reception for 3 whole channels - so only saw the YouTube that someone sent to me).

Anyway it is about this Extreme guy going out to castrate lambs in the mountains. If I remember, it was actually told during a motivational speech he was giving. Anyone remember this?


----------



## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

I love Mike Rowe :biggrin


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Thank you! That is the one I meant. I think everyone who is castrating should watch this YouTube (plus the rest of the message is pretty good too).

Now Bookmarking it so I can find it again for other folks who ask me these same questions.


----------



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Thanks!! I think I'll forgo the ripping them out with my teeth though. The neighbors already talk enough. It is an excellent perspective on it though.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Castration 101 for goatkeeping 101  I wish some of you were 4H kids of mine back in the day. Much to the dismay of some of their parents who turned green, I taught the kids to do everything, we even butchered showing the parts and blowing up the lungs. Things can and do go wrong with band castration, you can pull teats and plumbing down into the band, tetanus is a problem for weeks, it is an open wound and especially if it's delayed you are stressing an animal out just as they need all their immunity to fight parasites. Flies, infection, and moms and LGD paying way too much attention to licking the bands...which is also a reason not to clamp umbilical cords. Cutting isn't as hard as it seems. And done at birth the cut is a non issue.


----------



## Fly to the Moon (Sep 11, 2010)

> Banding is going to be the choice that presents the least amt of trauma for new dairy goat owners.


Maybe. But I'm new, and I'm more interested in what's least traumatic for the kid. That's why I asked the question.

So, ok, pulling testicles out with your teeth - that seems a little unsanitary to me? Aren't germs from your mouth going to get up in there?


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

LOL, Ann.....only the old Basques do the teeth thing ;-) 

You just pull them out with your fingers. Use your thumbnail to scrape the cord if it doesn't severe itself -- never cut it straight across, though you can use the edge of the blade to scrape it.

Personally I cut with a sharp pair of sewing scissors rather than a knife.


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh yeah - you aren't going to catch us using our teeth! The video is just a very good point about what is best for the kid....Pulling the testicles with your fingers works just fine!


----------



## lorit (May 10, 2010)

When is the best time for cutting? Does it have the same potential for causing urinary issues?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No, male testes and the cords have no attachment to the bladder and urethra....now if you band you can pull parts of this into the scrotum. After banding watch to make sure the boys i peeing. Google it, you can see photos of exactly what we are talking about. You would have to make a large incision to be able to reach up into the body to pull down plumbing, and we are talking about small incisions that only testicles can pop out of.


----------



## IndyGardenGal (Jun 11, 2009)

I really wish I lived closer to some of you ladies so I could learn this stuff first hand.


----------



## lorit (May 10, 2010)

YES - some things you just have to watch and learn first hand.


----------

