# Evil Lard



## Failte Gate Farm

I'm happily soaping away using the Wal Mart recipe. It's easy, it's dependable, it has lard. Outside of the religious issues of using a pork-based product, I just not satisfied that lard is so bad. Can someone tell me again why, if I wear leather shoes, I shouldn't be able to have lard in my soap? At this point, it hasn't been a problem, but I WOULD like to have a reasonable argument for when it does eventually come up. 

I would also like to find a local source of lard so that I'm not giving business to an agro-conglomerate. (which I'm doing quite a bit of at the moment) I'm checking that out now. It remains to be seen if it is cost effective. It just seems to me that even though folks may say they want no animal products in their soap, the oils used to replace that lard has to be shipped in because it isn't local. And which is the greater evil, using an animal-based product, or using products that have to be shipped in from a great distance?

I'm sure many of you have already dealt with this. And although I'm just pondering problems that haven't even popped up yet, I'd like to have a better argument than, "Well, lard is easy to get and easy to work with, I like the way the soap feels, and I have no moral or religious issue with eating bacon."


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## buckrun

This image may give you one reason not to use lard.
There are many more.


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## hsmomof4

I love lard (and tallow) in soap! Here's what I say: traditionally, soap was made with animal fats. It was a way to use up all of the animal so that nothing went to waste (and today, it's so that less goes to "waist," too!) It makes wonderful, long-lasting, gentle soap. Personally, I get all of my tallow and most of my lard from local small farms, kids' 4H projects, etc. In my particular case, it's very green and sustainable, very local. I do make veggie soaps, too, for those who have objections to animal fats in soap (for example, one good customer's husband is a Hindu, and they definitely don't want tallow in their soap, and I have had Muslim customers who would not want lard, etc). But you're right, if you don't have an objection to wearing leather shoes or eating bacon, it's pretty hard to object to lard or tallow in soap, and it's in most of the commercial products (ie, the sodium tallowate in Dove is from tallow) already.


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## hsmomof4

Lee, I think that would give her a reason not to use commercial lard (or eat commercially raised pork), but if you know your local small scale farmer and how the animals are raised, it's a different story, don't you think?


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## Failte Gate Farm

I'm actually considering finding a local source of lard from hogs raised by small farmers in our area. I hear it's available, and I'd like I'll switch to that. The farms that I've seen are raising them in pastures and wooded areas so the hogs get to live like hogs before they are butchered. I've also considered rendering it myself from the wild hogs that my husband butchers. Those hogs are about as natural as it gets.


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## buckrun

I doubt if the average soap buyer relates to why or how soap was made in the good ole days. They mostly live now with no concept of how traditional things got started and why they are continued now with no need. 

And so yes if you can raise and render your own or find someone who does then that is something that give label appeal for those who care or even know. Being in Texas I doubt unless you are in Austin you are not going to find anyone who objects. Most people who complain about lard in their soap will still eat bacon this and pork that and find it glorious so your main arguments will come from a rather more difficult and more widely educated audience who do take a stand on where their products come from-how they are produced and what the impact of the contents seem to be and they won't buy palm either :biggrin 

Olive oil soaps are generally seen by activists as the most sustainable. 
I wouldn't blow off people who really do care about things like this. 
They may not be a great part of your biz but coming at them with the attitude that they have no ground to stand on will not make you any sales. It is a very important part of the future of our society to learn how to do things without cruelty and pollution and making it make economic sense and resource sense.
Lee


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## buckrun

So regardless of my opinion which is always fringe....if you want to use lard I would get some schtick going about wild harvested etc....you know...to capture the imagination of someone who would like to pretend to be conscious :rofl- :duh

SO maybe a photo essay with a center piece about 5 feet tall of a dead pig hacked open with you stirring a cast iron pot over a campfire while your child dressed in historical garb adds hunks of gibbering fat as your husband whacks it off the carcass :rofl 

Welcome to the forum Sheri! 
Lee


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## Failte Gate Farm

I don't believe I was coming at them with that viewpoint at all. I simply feel that if you can eat meat, or wear leather, then having lard in soap isn't that big a stretch. And IF, I choose to use animal-based product, then I also wish to take my business AWAY from a conglomerate and give it to the small farmer who not only struggles to make ends meet, but also treats his animals in a humane manner. 

Forgive me if I offended you, Lee, but you seem to be trying to take offense when none was intended. 

Believe it or not, Austin isn't the only place in Texas where you can find folks who care about animals. I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I'd say that all the people on this list who live in Texas actually care about animals. 

Again, forgive me if I offended you. That was not my intent.


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## buckrun

No...just having fun thinking about stuff. Not offended at all just presenting other ways to think about it. You were writing off the segment of the population that does not want to smear animal grease on their skin just because they don't mind eating them or wearing shoes. That is certainly nonsensical to me as well and something to make fun of and so I did and enjoyed it mightly!

You could get all scientific on them and let them know that once the lye hits it Fat is well...Fat!
L


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## buckrun

To clarify further I wasn't talking about people who care about animals Sheri- I was thinking more in terms of hardline activists of which I know quite a few in Austin who would never consider owning an animal and are the most likely to have questions. They are really going to be the type who put you thru your paces to justify your ingredients and so I was saying that you probably will not run into much opposition or at least not much broadly knowledgeable opposition. You cannot get offended if you really believe in your position that using lard is 'ok' or it seems to show you really don't believe it to someone who is against it and asking about it. 

I am guessing that most of the people who will ask you about lard in your soap will stop at Sonic on the way home without a thought so where do you start explaining anything to them? That is what I was making fun of.
I thought you had a good question You certainly can't flare up because I was pushing back- that is what your knowledgeable customers will do. You have to be ready to calmly hand out reasonable information!

Best wishes on success with your dead pig soap :biggrin 

Lee


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## Jo~*

buckrun said:


> This image may give you one reason not to use lard.
> There are many more.


Are them pigs dead or alive? If they are alive is this the kind of pen they are raised in and if they are dead what are they getting ready to do to them?
JoAnn


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## Trysta

Sad image, but definitely NOT standard way of keeping hogs. And if you want local lard, just go to a local butcher/packing company, who almost always only butcher from small scale producers. In case of hogs, I do like small scale a lot better than large scale, so my lard comes from a small packer in IN. That way (and I know lots of people don't agree with this) I know the hogs had a good life and also an as humane as possible death. I will sure use the lard of our current hogs, who are loved and well taken care of while they're here, but who's future will lay in the freezer.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Most have no clue that their soap is already made with tallow, beef fat if they buy grocery store detergent bars, sodium tallowate is the main ingredient in most soap. They also don't, and even soapers don't get that after saponification is complete, that not even a scientist, chemist etc. can pull apart a soap bar and tell you what butters or oils you used, only the characteristics of the butters and oils are left....it is a complete chemical process that changes everything to soap.

In the end unless you are making soap for your family, in which we mostly use the walmart bars I soap during soap classes....that everything we are doing is about label appeal and there is very little appeal to lard or tallow....that soy and palm become conversations I really don't have time for, and since what butters and oils you use is much less important than the percentages of hard to soft butters, your iodine level....subbing out ingredients that bother your customers (which will be different than my customers) simply isn't worth it.


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## petey

I think it's just a personal choice. I love my soaps with lard in them, and they are also the most popular ones i have. Seems to me that once its been soaped, its no longer 'animal grease'. At least it sure does FEEL a lot different. :/


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## MF-Alpines

I, too, love lard soaps. Half of my soaps are made with lard. But because some do not want lard, I also have another half made from olive oil and other oils. This satisfies those that will not/cannot use a pig-based product. When someone questions my use of lard or asks if they all have lard in them, I explain, no, and then inform them that lard really makes a great soap. I go on to say that just because it may not be good for your heart doesn't mean it's not good for your skin. Then, they can make up their own mind.

Regarding local availability, I contacted a local pork producer about purchasing either their pig fat or rendered lard; they wanted to charge me $3.50/lb. No way. I'll keep looking after the holidays, but for now, I'll purchase my lard from CF at $0.80/lb.


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## eam

Wow, Cindy. My butcher (to whom we bring our pigs and sheep) happily gives away his lard and tallow. It costs him $25 to dispose of each barrel of fat so he loves to find people that will help cut his costs...

I wonder how many customers he has at $3.50 a pound!
Elizabeth


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## carlidoe

Most butchers/packers charge that much for fat because they use it. I checked with my local packers for fat and they charged 3 a pound. There are 2 United Supermarkets near me that have to throw away 3/4 of their lard because it sits on the shelf until it's outdated. While I'm sad for those pigs that are raised commercially, they aren't there because of their prized fat. I would love to be able to take a stand against it, but I buy meat and milk from the store. That's exactly what I would tell a customer that didn't like my soap because of lard, "Do you buy meat, eggs, or milk from the store?" I don't think I will run into many that do not, though I commend those that raise all of their own food. Not everyone has the set up to do that.


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## buckrun

> Most have no clue that their soap is already made with tallow, beef fat if they buy grocery store detergent bars, sodium tallowate is the main ingredient in most soap


This seems to be very true. 
We were set up next to an amazing young family at a festival is South Dakota and they spent hours each day trying to explain to people grimacing at their tallow soap label that their soaps were cruelty free and that they did not drench their cattle in poison nor feed them medicated feeds or do hormone therapy for growth enhancement. Can't tell you how many people just stared and walked off. Wonder if she had written sodium tallowate if she would have had less explaining to do and more purchases too. I came home with lots of it since she loved our pottery 

Lee


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## Trysta

So, do I write Sodium Lardate on my label :biggrin


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## [email protected]

Trysta said:


> So, do I write Sodium Lardate on my label :biggrin


That is funny! Wording does count for a lot if you have people who read the ingredients label.


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## Failte Gate Farm

At the moment, I'm buying my lard from the grocery store, but because I'm not making a large quantity of soap, I'm able to spend more money to buy the local farmer's lard even at an inflated price. I'd rather the local guy have the extra money than the company I've been using. 

I'm also buying my coconut oil from the grocery store. Perhaps I can make up for the increased price of lard by finding a cheaper source of coconut oil.


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## MF-Alpines

eam said:


> I wonder how many customers he has at $3.50 a pound!
> Elizabeth


I wonder this, too, Elizabeth. It seems outrageous, doesn't it?



Trysta said:


> So, do I write Sodium Lardate on my label :biggrin


Sure you can! I do not. I list ingredients in order of their weight. When it's time to list sodium hydroxide, I list "sodium hydroxide". Period.

What really funny is when people ask me if my soap is organic. I then explain to them that NO SOAP is organic. Sometimes I even seem the light bulb come on. :biggrin


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## adillenal

I use lard and have people that ask for lard soap. I also make a palm based for those that want all veggie oils. And yes, I am near Austin. As for finding fat at a local butcher, around here most people keep their own fat from their animals usually to add to venison when making deer sausage. I know I have lard and tallow in the freezer from our last processing. DS wants it for sausage so I can't render it and use it for soap. 
But since I don't have a large amount from two hogs, I do not think I would ever be able to use local lard due to not enough available.


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## Aja-Sammati

I am laughing because I know how hard you have to work to find shoes that are made with real leather- look at the labels in shoes where most people buy them, and you find 'man-made materials' in about 99% of shoes today (and no arch support, another pet peeve of mine, but I digress). Butchers that process sausage use the tallow & lard to add back into the recipe to provide moisture, so you don't have a dry sausage, if they process goat or deer sausage, then they usually use lard with those meats (known to make drier sausages to begin with.) This might cause them to price their fat higher.

For many customers, they know they don't want a product that comes from commercial sources- drug/chemical residues are highest in fat, and as the local emphasis on foods/products grows, so does customer awareness, so they know this. If I had a local source of 'clean' tallow or lard, I would use it in some of my soaps (preferably tallow). Even at a local butcher, you have no idea how the animals the fat came from were raised...only if you raised them yourself or knew the person who raised them. Having run a farmers market before, the mantra is 'know the hand that feeds you'...it is about trust!

It comes down to what the customer wants, not what you want. Most of us draw a customer base that is happy with our products, and not everyone can please every customer. That is why there is room for different producers- for different markets. Make the soap you love and someone else will love it also! My personal opinion is that lard soaps have a yucky feel and don't last as long as the ones with palm, but if my customers loved lard soap, that is what I would make!


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## Lynn_Theesfeld

Well said Michelle!


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## Dorit

I have such better luck with lard than palm. I also like the way the soap feels. I purchased palm oil for label appeal only. I find it traces much faster and I don't like that.


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## MF-Alpines

Dorit said:


> I have such better luck with lard than palm. I also like the way the soap feels. I purchased palm oil for label appeal only. I find it traces much faster and I don't like that.


Using palm will not/may not give you "label appeal". The unsustainability of it and all.


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## Anita Martin

I think that people tend to eat by what their stomachs tell them sounds good, be it bacon a hamburger, whatever, but as for products they use on their skin, they get to be a little pickier. They use their head and not their stomachs when choosing which products to buy and use and therein lies the difference. We want products that make us look young, feel young, act young, etc. but rarely do we only eat those things with youthing benefits. It's human nature.


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## Aja-Sammati

> Using palm will not/may not give you "label appeal". The unsustainability of it and all.


That is why I use the organic, sustainable kind  keeps that label appeal. It is possible to argue the sustainability of almost any soap ingredient, even goat milk!


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## Dorit

Are you saying that palm oil or lard or goat milk is 
*un·sus·tain·a·ble*/??ns??st?n?b?l/ Adjective:	
Not able to be maintained at the current rate or level.
Upsetting the ecological balance by depleting natural resources: "unsustainable fishing practices".
Are they finite? Not being difficult I just don't know how that could be.


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## hsmomof4

Palm oil is problematic because when palm oil became profitable, rainforest was destroyed to plan palm plantations. For lard, you could argue that our factory farming practices are unsustainable, and therefore, that could be problematic, if you use commercial lard. I don't think you could make those arguments for a small farm's GM, though.


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## carlidoe

Basically our entire planet is unsustainable.


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## Aja-Sammati

Carli hit my point- 
What do we feed our goats? Do we use any fossil fuels to harvest or ship their feed? How are the supplies we use to keep them healthy (from hoof trimmers to antibiotics to minerals) manufactured and shipped? Are we testing all of our soil to make sure that the goats are not causing erosion or an imbalance in soil health of any kind. Is our drawing from wells to water the crops we feed our goats altering the water table and therefore overall water quality? Are there any chemicals used on any of the crops that go into any of the feeds we use? Then multiply all of the questions like that (and there are MANY more we could ask) towards every ingredient we put into our soap... :crazy


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## Dorit

I have to agree, nothing is sustainable, even us. I suppose if we each had one child for us and one for the sperm donor we kinda sorta are sustainable. LOL


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## NubianSoaps.com

All I care about is shleping my products  ....and using anything, lard, palm, corn oil, soybean oil, cottonseed oil, is just one more question I have to answer about my products...or double talk about it....so I don't use them. If tommorrow, coconut oil was made out of fashion because of internet fodder, I would take it out of my soap. I know that saponification is a complete chemcial change to any butters and oils, but having to explain this to customers isn't something I want to do, telling them that my palm is only from sustainable farms, when it isn't something I really know 100%, I would just rather not use it. Explaining that lard is actually the best soap, they like what I make so what would be the point, even though I use the wallmart recipe bars made in soaping classes in my home


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## Dorit

Amen, I have spent so many years "educating" people about my paintings, explaining how it took many years to learn, style, execution, etc. I don't want to educated nobody on nothin'. I don't even like dealing with the public. In a perfect world I would stay at home and someone else would sell for me 
BTW this morning I talked to a market director and will start doing an organic farmer's market on Sat mornings. Just can't wait to be all cheery and happy.


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## MF-Alpines

Dorit said:


> BTW this morning I talked to a market director and will start doing an organic farmer's market on Sat mornings. Just can't wait to be all cheery and happy.


Oh, you can do it, Dorit! Years ago, I swore I would NEVER, EVER work with the public again!!!!!!!! EVER!!!! Worked as a waitress and pumped gas for years when I was younger. Had many years working with customers in a corporate setting - loved that. Completely different. Now, I'm at a FM 3 days per week, dealing with the public again. And I have to say, most of the time, I LOVE IT! Maybe that's because I never get out and have moved "away from home" and all that. Yes, there are sometimes I just hate people. But overall, it works and I'm happy.

Had a woman come by who said she just loves, loves, loves my soap. Then had someone stop who, after smelling 26 different scents mentioned to her friend that she didn't find any of them appealling. LOL! First time I heard that. You can't please everyone.


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## Dorit

I guess you are right, I just hate leaving home. But I do have to support this habit.


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