# Fodder Systems?



## Anita Martin

I've recently been investigating fodder systems from various companies. Just today I got an email from farm-tek with their new system. There is also a lot of info on youtube and it sounds pretty neat. The complete packages are really expensive, like around $4000...but it would be so nice to be somewhat immune to hay prices, drought, lack of hay, etc. for all the animals here. Being able to produce fodder in a small area right on site would be wonderful too. I've got a batch of grains going and can see potential problems already with mold, but I'm just using a large feed dish without holes drilled....not the trays that are recommended. 

Before I'd even build a small one for myself, (forget about the commercial ones), I'm trying to figure out how many pounds of seed, like barley for instance, it would take to get a certain amount of fodder, and can other seeds besides barley and wheat be used, such as alfalfa and clover? Has anyone found a site with more extensive information than just the basics available on the system-selling sites. And knowing the feed values would be good too. 

One site showed the barley grass growing in the dark...but some systems have lights built in. Would a regular greenhouse work, or would it need to be more protected from winter weather?


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## doublebowgoats

I don't guess I understand what kind of system you are talking about. Is it using sprouts?


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## linuxboy

> I'm trying to figure out how many pounds of seed, like barley for instance, it would take to get a certain amount of fodder,


It depends on your setup. Ranges from 7-15lb fodder from lb barley in 6-8 days.


> and can other seeds besides barley and wheat be used, such as alfalfa and clover?


Would not have the same growth rate, but it will grow together, yes.. What is your reasoning for it? Add something? 


> Has anyone found a site with more extensive information than just the basics available on the system-selling sites.


What do you want to know?


> And knowing the feed values would be good too.


Of as fed or DM? Which seed?



> One site showed the barley grass growing in the dark...but some systems have lights built in.


There is am optimum light level, cycle, O2 level, nutrient level, humidity, temp, etc. If you do not want to worry about the optimal, plain water and seeds grown in the dark work just fine.



> Would a regular greenhouse work, or would it need to be more protected from winter weather?


How cold are we talking here? You typically want stable temps.


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## swgoats

The ones I looked at were sprouted rye grass - you just let the sprouts mature a little more than you would sprouts you put on salad. You moved trays in and out like an assembly line so the animals are always getting fresh greens. I was going to try it small scale in a bucket but never got organized. I would think up here I'd have to have heat to keep it going in the winter. I would think you'd want some hay too, cause sprouts are so rich....

What about sprouting in rubber feed tubs and just setting the tub out for the animals to eat down, then sprouting right in the tub again? That would be easy to do. I think you are embarking on new territory Anita. I've heard people ponder it, but I haven't heard of anyone actually doing it.


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## Rose

That really isn't the optimum goat food, is it? :/


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## Anita Martin

It's not sprouts really, it's grass that grows to about 5 or 6 inches high in a week. The reason I ever even considered it is because of all the spilled barley around here. Once it rains, the stuff grows green all over the place super fast! Juiced barley and wheat grass is highly recommended for humans for it's nutrient density, so I can see it adding some value to the milk or meat of animals fed it. 

From my experience, the rubber tubs don't work except for soaking and sprouting as the seeds mold in them. The grains have to be rinsed and have a way to drain. I've got a couple ideas for a really small-scale set up here, basically just to try it. I'm not sure my goats would eat the grain/root part. I'm sure they would love the grass, but you offer them the whole thing, grass, root system, and seed. 

Since most of the commonly used seeds are winter-type crops I'm thinking they would do fine in the winter as long as the temps were above freezing. One site recommended temps below 70 and kept the fodder system in a climate controlled shed.


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## H Diamond Farms

This is something I've been looking also. We generally have an abundance of wheat. I would love to use wheat since we can grow it ourselves, but have read the dangers of bloat with feeding it as a grain, and am leary to add it to their grain ration. This seems like it might be a better alternative since the seed is sprouted, plus they get the "grass" part also. Please let me know if you find some more info on it!


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## happy vagabonds

i have this site bookmarked... some interesting stuff there.

http://landofhavilahfarm.com/loh-feed-regimen.htm


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## fmg

My goats love roots, if they can get to them. We have a hillside that is eroding some and there were sagebrush roots sticking out, which they really enjoyed. I don't know if that would cross over to the seeds, but maybe. Last winter, I was feeding some sprouts, and they definitely ate the roots from that. I bet they would from a grass, too.


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## NubianSoaps.com

I thought of you today Anita. I had the great joy of delivering goats today and wound up at a farm that uses a homegrown fodder system.

He simply uses 3.5 gallon buckets and fills them up 1/4th of the way up with wheat, oats, milo (he is in north Texas) black oil sunflower seeds and barley (he orders his from Azure Standard since they are organic). He is to far to get organic grains from central Texas which would make this much cheaper for him. He gets his oats and wheat at his local feed store. The longer he has done this the more and more whole oats and barley he adds to the mix, after talking with me today he is going to ditch the BOSS, it is not increasing his fat at all in the limited amounts he is feeding.

After soaking for 12 hours (he does rinse his grain really well before he starts and he also adds rock salt to the soaking water (worrying about mold). He then dumps this into, 3.5 gallon buckets with holes (about straw size) in the bottom and sides of the bucket. As he does chores twice a day he runs water through the buckets and dumps them from one bucket to a clean bucket (this keeps air in all the grain and it also separates the mats. He puts one pound into each bucket because it how much he feeds to his 8 milkers. Although the soaking bucket needs to have a lid on it, these sprouting buckets did not have lids and were not in the dark. 

So 24 hours soaking, 24 hours sprouting, then he dumps them into steam table plastic trays from Sams, we use them for sausage making. Once again with holes in the bottom of them. He soaks them twice a day at chores, and feeds them on day 7. So the seeds he is soaking today will be fed in 7 days. These sit in cafeteria trays that not just catch the water to keep it from dripping but keeps water for the roots to find if they are drying out between soakings.

He isn't going to do an automatic watering system because he has to milk twice a day, he only feeds the sprouted grains to milkers twice a day, so he won't have to do the sprouts if they aren't in milk...kind of logical 



The milkers get only alfalfa pellets on the milkstand and he feeds 1 tray (about 1 pound of sprouted grain) in the morning and 1 bucket in the evening worth of the sprouts to all 8 goats. So that is 2 pounds of grain for everyone in two feedings. His feeders are like mine in fact he saw mine from facebook.

He doesn't put minerals in the sprouts he feeds a loose mineral instead. He does feed grass hay in the winter like I do and his goats do have some browse although he is much more heat stressed than me here, more like what I looked like last year.

He does all of the soaking and sprouting in his laundry room, he has all the sprouting trays on a table on his deck near the waterhose.

His does are beautiful, very well fed, very good flesh and being there at chores, very good milkers, they are LaManchas.

You have to control airflow, lack of air causes mold. He has had a fan running on his sprouts most of the summer. He has no problems with sprouting since he does it in the house, with the winter, but you are so much colder, all he does is put black plastic over his trays if he is going to get a frost and we have a whole handful of freezes.

He likes using the steam table trays, although he calls them chubs, because he can easily lift them and take them out to feed, letting most of the water drip out before he breaks it up and feeds it.

The guy he learned this from uses a mixer and mixes hay into his sprout mats, and feeds it like this.

In the feeder it looked like long grass that was dug up and thrown in the feeders, but looking closely it is all filled with grain at the bottom in the mat. While we stood there, they devoured what he put out, nothing left.

I was so impressed with this! Especially because there was little expense in the setup, and if you hate doing it, use it for starting plants for your garden or greenhouse  V


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## karenowilkins

Wow...how interesting,,love the information.


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## Daniel Babcock

I have two friends with fodder systems and they both love it. One has a beautiful herd of Nubians "Legacy Hill Caprine" he feeds the fodder and straw for roughage. Though not on DHIA he had a tester come to the farm and take a sample to give him a baseline, and he has tested monthly (even though it has been only two months) and he has seen statistically significant improvement in production and components. This is significant because these goats are reaching the end of their lactation and production should be tapering. 

My other friend uses fodder for his "Utah Natural Meat" organic meat farm. He feeds fodder exclusively for his chickens, pigs and beef cows. 

Both are very pleased and in completing a cost analysis both figured the equipment ordered from fodder solutions (not cheap) will pay for itself in under two years. 

This is very intriguing for me. I have completed a feasibility for myself and will be investing (either building my own or purchasing a prefabricated unit) within the next 6 months or so.


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## IndyGardenGal

http://www.half-pinthomestead.com/

There's a neat site that sells plans and full fodder systems. Much cheaper than the systems through FarmTek


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## lovinlifeathome

Yes!! I got her plans and we are building the 12 tray system - if anyone's interested, I'll 
keep you updated 

~Carla


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## NubianSoaps.com

Farm Tech also has a web cast you can sign up for, a class, I called to be included in the next one.

Anybody who does this or has new info, please feel free to post anything that you like to this thread! Vicki


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## IndyGardenGal

lovinlifeathome said:


> Yes!! I got her plans and we are building the 12 tray system - if anyone's interested, I'll
> keep you updated
> 
> ~Carla


I would love to hear more from you to get an idea of the cost of putting together.


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## H Diamond Farms

IndyGardenGal said:


> lovinlifeathome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes!! I got her plans and we are building the 12 tray system - if anyone's interested, I'll
> keep you updated
> 
> ~Carla
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to hear more from you to get an idea of the cost of putting together.
Click to expand...

Ditto!


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## lovinlifeathome

Glad to see there's so much interest - will post up dates as we go. I'm
sourcing all the parts right now..


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## KJFarm

Vicki, could you PM me about the guy in North Texas who uses the fodder system........I might want to go take a look. TIA


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## funnyfarmtexas.com

Wow, this seems so cool, and another thing to add to my hunny do list. if anyone finds a good system with recycled type containers that are cheap (my favorite kind) can you please post with pictures.


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## melwynnd

Hello,

My name is Sherry and I'm the one with the Fodder systems for sale on the website www.half-pinthomestead.com. Hi Carla, home the assembly is going well. Just let me know if you have any questions. :biggrin

I actully was pretty excited about this site when I back traced it from my website. I had milk cows for 10 years and THOUGHT I loved them. Then we moved to a wooded property in Missouri and it quickly became apparent that a cow just wasn't going to work there unless we did some major tree cutting. So I got a little herd of Nubians. They were so great! Small, fun, affectionate, and entertaining with wonderful milk, how could you possibly ask for more.

I have since sold my herd of Nubians and live in the middle of town. But my goat plans are not over. I'm planning on getting a couple of Kinders next summer. In fact, I went and saw some that a local breeder has and she said one of her 4 year old does will be for sale after she kids next year. Score!! dance:

Cheesemaking, here I come!!

Sherry


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## H Diamond Farms

Hi Sherry! Very glad you came and found us! Would you mind if I (we, lol) asked you some questions?


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## melwynnd

LOL, I'm glad I found you too! Most people just don't get the "goat thing". Unfortunately, DH is included in that. :help

Ask away, I'll do my best to answer any questions!

Sherry


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## lovinlifeathome

Glad to see you here, Sherry - welcome! 

I'm still gathering all my materials but really look forward to getting my system
going. I want to start with barley and then add some others and I'm also waiting
on barley.... seems late this year :?


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## melwynnd

Hi Carla,

I'm interested in hearing how the Barley works. You just can't get it here, but the wheat works fine too. What are you having trouble finding?

Sherry


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## punchiepal

Been playing with this on a small make-shift scale. They are getting to really like it and the chickens LOVE any leftovers. Looking like I am gonna need to find something a little more permanent soon. LOL 
Using oats now, b/c what I have now. Have found some barley and will try mixing them together next.


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## punchiepal

Sherry,
Maybe you can answer this -
How much fodder do you feed per day per poundage? 
Only answer I can find is 1% of body weight in fodder.


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## melwynnd

Hi punchiepal,

Okay, disclaimer first..... I am an English major and math and I are not friends..... :blush2

For ease of math figuring, I am going to use a 100 pound animal as an example. So 1% of body weight is 1 pound per day. That will work as a maintenance diet. So if you have a whether or a dry doe in good condition they would do find on 1 pound of Fodder per day plus poor grass hay or browse for roughage. Roughage is very important for ruminants so they don't bloat.

For a pregnant doe, an old kid who is not growing quickly, or a doe at the end of her lactation, I would suggest 2% of body weight per day. So 2 pounds of Fodder per day plus roughage for the 100 pound animal less for smaller ones.

For a heavily milking doe or rapidly growing kids, 3% of body weight would be more appropriate. This would be 3 pounds of Fodder per day for the 100 pound animal plus roughage. This assumes you are not feeding any grain.

Of course these are just rules of thumb. You may have a whether that gets too fat on 1% or a really great milker that needs 4%. Every animal is different, but at least this gives you some idea.

Sherry


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## fmg

Are these amounts in pound of dry grain, or after it has grown?


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## punchiepal

After it is it grown Nancy.


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## melwynnd

These amounts are Fodder weight. A good estimate of dry grain to Fodder ratio is 1:6. So for 1 pound of Fodder, you need 1/6 pound of grain. I put between 2 and 2 1/2 pounds of grain in my Kit trays for 12-15 pounds of finished Fodder. Thus a 50# bag of grain will last up to 25 days with a 6 Tray system and 12 days or so with a 12 Tray system. At $9.70 a bag for the wheat I use, that runs about $0.39 a day for the 6 Tray and $0.78 for the 12 tray. I have an 18 tray in the final testing stages that produces up to 45# of Fodder a day.


Sherry


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## melwynnd

Wow! I hope that doesn't sound too much like a sales pitch.... :blush2. I just don't have any experience with it outside my own systems so everything is referenced by that particular tray size. :biggrin

Sherry


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## H Diamond Farms

Not at all. You just answered Half my questions lol. 
Another one I have Is growth time. I think you have yours set to cycle on a six day cycle. 
Will wheat grow in that amount of time? From the small test I'm running right now I don't know how it can. We are wheat farmers, so wheat would be my staple fodder.


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## melwynnd

Here's my wheat Fodder on the sixth day.... The whole thing is about 7 inches high.










Now, to qualify this... I pre-sprout for a day in an ice cream bucket, so this is REALLY the 7th day. 

Sherry

P.S. I wish I knew a wheat farmer. This last batch I got was FILTHY. :shocked :shocked I guess the system is getting a good testing under those conditions though.


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## Sans Gene Goats

Wow this is really intriguing. Like the idea of producing my own higher quality feed plus being less dependent on buying hay, but the main drawback for me is adding yet *one more thing* to do with working full time, chores, family, etc. etc. etc.


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## fmg

Do they HAVE to have an additional hay source for roughage? Around here I have never found a lesser quality hay that's for cheaper, maybe I just don't know how to search for it. Is the fodder just too rich, so they need something to dilute it out a bit?


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## melwynnd

fmg said:


> Do they HAVE to have an additional hay source for roughage? Around here I have never found a lesser quality hay that's for cheaper, maybe I just don't know how to search for it. Is the fodder just too rich, so they need something to dilute it out a bit?


Fodder is 80% digestible as opposed to about 30% for grain and less for hay. That may sound great, and it is from a nutritional point of view. However; ruminants require a lot of long fibers in their diet for everything to work properly. Because Fodder is so young and lush, there is almost no fiber so it must be provided some other way. This can be provided with oat hay, stray, year-old hay, pasture, or even browse, but they HAVE to have something else or you risk bloat. Rabbit, pigs, and chickens don't have this issue as much and horses are in between these and ruminants.

Sherry


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## quartzridgeranch

We have made our own fodder system to help with the rising cost of hay and feed in our area. We are able to feed our herd of 8 Oberhasli, 9 Nigerians, 1 Saanen, 1 LaManacha/Saanen, 1 Toggenberg, 6 Muscovy Ducks, 3 Geese, a horse, 2 American Guinea Hogs (and their babies) and our flock of chickens. We have gone from $1200 feed bill per month to about $500!! We now only purchase cheap hay (for roughage), organic dairy pellets (for my milkers) and barley seeds.

We originally looked to purchase an all-inclusive unit until we checked one out and decided we could make it ourselves and save a lot of cash. We are looking to improve ours in the future but it is totally functioning right now.

Here are some posts about it:

http://quartzridgeranch.wordpress.com/2012/10/12/barley-fodder-system/

http://quartzridgeranch.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/barley-fodder-setup/

If you have any questions please feel free to ask!!

Teresa


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## NubianSoaps.com

I have asked the gal at half pint to join us, that would be nice. 

Janie I have already ask the guy he if he would like to join the conversation here, he hasn't joined yet and that was several weeks ago. Vicki


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## IndyGardenGal

How much do you feed your guinea hogs per day? I'm trying to figure out how much we would need per day for the chickens, ducks, hogs, and goats. Or rather, how big of a system we would need.


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## jpmaynard

We were talking about fodder back in July and few had even heard of the practice. It is incredible to me how something like this takes off. I believe it is the only way we will be able to afford our herds in the future. It may cost us a little more time during the day but much less back breaking work than bucking hay. It is also good for our family to throw some sprout into our meals. I will get picks of my system and share as soon as possible.


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## melwynnd

Hi Vickie,

As you can see, I'm already here. :biggrin

Here's a picture of a twelve tray system. It will give you up to 30 pounds of Fodder per day. I am just finishing the testing on a 18 tray system that will produce up to 45 pounds of Fodder per day. I should have pics of that and maybe a video at the beginning of the week.

Sherry


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## Ashley

Do the sprouts not need a light source?


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## melwynnd

Ashley said:


> Do the sprouts not need a light source?


Hi Ashley,

You are not asking them to seed or set fruit, so they don't need any special light. A room with a window facing any direction is fine for Fodder.

Sherry


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## Ashley

Very interesting! How are you using the reservoir below them?


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## NubianSoaps.com

Thank you so much Sherrie, you are going to be busy answering questions  My question...the container below that keeps the water, how do you empty it? The only system I have seen in person was outside, does this get a yeasty or moldy smell to it? I have asthma and I am afraid this is going to bother me, places inside. Maybe change out the water more often and really rinse the grains? 

And for anyone.....Do you use Azure Standard for your wheat, and which wheat do you purchase, spring, red, winter? Thanks tons! Vicki


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## lonestrchic23

So, this can cut back on the grain I feed, but I still need hay/browse for roughage, correct?

I can't get your website to load on my phone right now, so forgive me if this question is one that is answered there..... But from the picture I see some tubes in that water tub.... Is that water somehow circulating to water the seed on some sort of schedule? Is it messy (water on the floor around the set up)? 

And it's not needing continual light, just whatever it can get from a window during daylight hours? What about temperature? Does it need to stay in a certain range to grow well? Have a storage shed I could try this in, but would I need AC during the bad heat, and a space heater for them during winter?


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## fmg

Does someone have some nutrition information on fodder, barley fodder, wheat fodder, etc.? What is the protein content, DE, fat, etc?


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## melwynnd

Vickie,

I change out the water every two to three days. It's not that it gets mold, but the starch in the grain makes the water foamy and slick. I've found the best way to prevent mold and smelling is to set the timer for rinsing for 15 min every two hours and to make sure there is plenty of air circulation in the room. I do sometime start to see a bit of mold between day 5 and 6, but it doesn't get to the point of producing spores before you feed it.

Lonestrchick23,

You can eliminate grain altogether and feed a very poor quality of hay with Fodder fed at 3% bodyweight for a heavily producing animal, 2% for one at the end of her lactation or pregnant. You will still need to have minerals available.

Water in the Fodder system circulates from the tub below to the top tray and trickles down all the trays back into the tub. I have it set on a timer to run for 15 min every two hours. I have mine on the living room carpet and it doesn't splash except when you first start the system and have empty trays. I've been able to fix this problem simply by putting perlite in the trays until they are ready for their batch of grain.

The Fodder needs to be kept at a pretty constant temperature between 65 and 80 degrees. Since that's basically room temperature, I keep mine in the living room. It doesn't need much light, so if you must keep it outside, I would recommend an insulated shed with a window or two as that will be easier to heat and cool than a greenhouse.

IMG

Here is the nutritional information on barley Fodder. Wheat is very similar, but I haven't been able to find such an exact breakdown for it.


Nutrient Unit Results


Crude Protein % 20.2

Fat% 4.3

Crude Fibre% 11.3

Starch% 15.4

Metabolizable Energy
(Ruminants)

MJ/kg 12.1

Minerals

Calcium% 0.15

Potassium% 0.7

Magnesium% 0.24

Phosphorus% 0.46

Sulphur% 0.28

Boron mg/kg 22

Copper mg/kg 11

Iron mg/kg 160


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## melwynnd

Crud, I forgot to mention:

On the small system, I put the lid on the tub and slide it outside to water my plant with the water. The tub for the 12 tray system is too big for me to move full, so I use the pump to pump the water into a bucket and take it out that way. You do have to be careful never to let the water get below the level of the pump while it running as it is water lubricated and can't run without water.


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## lonestrchic23

Thank you! Oh & Sherri, I figured out why I couldn't view your website.

When I first click the button under your profile pic, it starts loading www.halfpinthomestead.com, which quickly switches to ww2.halfpinthomestead.com, then it just keeps redirecting to all sorts of sites similarly named.

But when I typed this:

http://half-pinthomestead.com/

It took me right to you  So I think you need to fix the link in your profile (unless my phone is just being bazaar??)


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## melwynnd

It looks like you didn't have the dash in the first one. When I purchased the name someone already had www.halfpinthomestead.com and it was some redirect site. So I had to go with www. half-pinthomestead.com.

Sherry


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## Sans Gene Goats

Sherry, once you have the system set up, about how much time per day and how many times a day do you spend managing it - presoaking grain, loading trains, changing water etc.? 

Thank you so much for sharing your experience and information here on this! 

Dixie


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## lonestrchic23

melwynnd said:


> It looks like you didn't have the dash in the first one. When I purchased the name someone already had www.halfpinthomestead.com and it was some redirect site. So I had to go with www. half-pinthomestead.com.
> 
> Sherry


I didn't type it the 1st time, I clicked your lil globe icon under your name on the left side of the forum, and directly clicking that took me to the wrong website, the one without the -  So, you may need to check the link you typed into the forum when you signed up. I found the correct website with the - via a google search


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## buckrun

Great collection of info but are your amounts fed based on no grazing or browsing ?


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## NubianSoaps.com

Thank you so much for answering my questions!! Look at the fat in the barley analysis...tell me if you find one on wheat. Also is there a name of the wheat you use? Spring white wheat? OR does it not matter? Vicki


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## melwynnd

Hi Crystal, that was totally my fault..... :blush2...... It's fixed now.

I'd say I spend about 5 to 10 minutes a day on the fodder. That doesn't include the time it's just soaking while I'm doing chores.

The Fodder amounts are assuming you have hay or browse with little or no nutritional value. You still do need roughage, but if you have higher quality stuff, you can reduce the amoung of Fodder

Vickie,

I just use whatever wheat they have at the feed store. I doesn't look like hard red, more like white winter, but I really don't know.

Sherry


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## fmg

Those using fodder, would you consider the fodder a replacement for the hay in the diet (aside from as mentioned poor quality hay for roughage), or replacing grain, or is it a total replacement, other than the addition of roughage hay/straw?


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## buckrun

A bit of random input on this discussion...

Keep in mind Crude Protein has nothing to do with available protein  


"""hay or browse with little or no nutritional value."""

Browse is the ultimate goat nutrition. There is no such thing as no food value in browse. It is the preferred ruminant food source. Twig bark from understory shrubs has a wider nutritional profile than any of the mineral mixes and pellets being produced and labeled for goats.

The potential for nutrition from southern forest undergrowth exceeds any cropped forage and the variation in the plant community ensures nutritional variation not found in single species feeding. Ruminants are far more able to extract nutritional value from roughage than single stomach animals. 

If you can see or smell "mold" it is producing spores. The mycelium and hyphae are nearly invisible. What we see as "mold" is the fruiting bodies. 

Lee


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## fmg

There is some pretty awful browse in some places I think though.  Even the deer won't touch the sagebrush here for the most part. My goats wouldn't mess with it for the longest time when I set up a pen for them to go munch it if they wanted...then they got a taste for it I guess, because in a short period they devoured all in the area I had them in.


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## NubianSoaps.com

I didn't want to derail the conversation, but agree with Lee and I am lucky, the property is understory form the national forest, although we have a lot more pasture than we ever did. I will be doing this with browse and grass hay for rainy days and dead of winter, like always. 
Vicki


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## lonestrchic23

No browse, or even grazing here in dry west Texas  So I have to make do with whatever I can bring in. 

I was reading on an Alpaca blog about fodder.... He's built a flood & drain type system & the comments on the blog are interesting (google paca pride, barley fodder & he has his 2 fodder blog post, plus some youtube videos showing his system)..... One of the things mentioned on his is that oats aren't really a good choice for fodder because of the high nitrates... Anyone know if there is truth to that?

I have easy access to oats & wheat.... Not sure about barley though..... Another thing mentioned was that the barley does best in cooler temps.... Is there a grain that will do better in warmer temps? My original thought was to set up a small fodder system in a room of the storage building & provide a bit of climate control (AC in summer, heat in winter) but I saw mentioned that above 65° and barley is more likely to ferment instead of germinate.... I won't be cooling a room to 65° for fodder.... I don't even cool my house to that when temps are 110° outside...

I really like the idea of this for grain replacement, but want to make sure I can do it year round, not just in cooler months (can't bring it in the house...no room).


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## linuxboy

> but I saw mentioned that above 65° and barley is more likely to ferment instead of germinate.


It's not so much that the barley does anything differently, more so, there is a tradeoff. Optimum germination temp is 64F to 74F for barley. At the higher ranges, bacteria, yeast, and molds grow faster and prefer the warmer environment. So the higher temp encourages them to grow. With good sanitation, it's not a significant issue. The barley does grow a little faster at the higher temp ranges.

For anyone interested, the optimum humidity range is 40-80%. At the higher range, again, encourages mold growth.


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## quartzridgeranch

IndyGardenGal said:


> How much do you feed your guinea hogs per day? I'm trying to figure out how much we would need per day for the chickens, ducks, hogs, and goats. Or rather, how big of a system we would need.


My boar (200lbs), sow (150lbs and in milk) and 20 week old gilt (30lbs ish) get 1 tray a day. My trays weight about 10-15lbs each. I base it off of adding their weight together 200+150+30 = 380 or roughly 400lbs. Then multiply by 2% which is 8lbs. So they get one full tray. I divide it up into two feedings.

They also get kitchen scraps and milk from my goats. Since the AGHs are pasture pigs it is a perfect food for them. We don't have lush green pastures for them to graze on so this is what we can do.


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## CarrieC

Not to get off topic here, but does anyone think founder would be more of an an issue if using fodder? I was recently discussing fodder with a friend and she brought up that concern.

Carrie


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## Sans Gene Goats

CarrieC said:


> Not to get off topic here, but does anyone think founder would be more of an an issue if using fodder? I was recently discussing fodder with a friend and she brought up that concern.
> 
> Carrie


Carrie that's a good question. I would think in healthy animals without history of founder, seems like the usual cautions would apply; introduce slowly and in small amounts, and make sure they have at the very least 1% body weight daily of dry roughage or browse, don't let them get obese, etc.

I don't know enough about founder in goats to even guess whether fodder would be a good fit for animals who have foundered. In horses, it really depends on why they foundered in the first place whether they need a unique diet or not.

I've only been reading up on fodder since this thread started. I've become really interested. Hopefully someone who has actual experience with it will chime in on the founder concern. From what I've read, mold-related issues are most common.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Any changes to grain should be done very very slowly, and this is grain, just sprouted. So a hoofed animal that has foundered, should have plenty of dry hay to eat anyway, grain sparingly since founder doesn't ever really go away and you can bring on an acute attack again. Most goats who have foundered always have chronic feet problems so I would be super careful with feeding like this, go slow.

But for healthy animals I would think the biggest concern is going to be acidosis in overfeeding of grain, and listerosis if mold is allowed to grow. Vicki


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## Junkscouts

Started looking for seed sources and Found this: http://www.calseed.org/member_dir.html

I thought it might help those of you in California. I'm sure other states have similar associations.


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## melwynnd

We made a video of the 18 tray system this weekend. It should produce enough Fodder for 12 milking does without giving them grain.






We're working on a video of the 6 tray in full production this weekend. I'm trying a no presprout regimen that should make things even less complicated.

Sherry


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## NubianSoaps.com

Great job!


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## melwynnd

Thanks!

I'm so terrified of cameras, so this was a real stretch to me........ :faint. The scary thing is that DH thinks it's fun!! He keeps coming up with helpful video ideas............ :really

Sherry


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## NubianSoaps.com

I think the more information the better! I would have video's cut to my animals eating the fodder


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## melwynnd

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> I think the more information the better! I would have video's cut to my animals eating the fodder


That's a very good idea!! I think the next one will be of cleaning really dirty grain before it goes in the system. The last bag I got was basically sweepings from the mill floor.... :/

Sherry


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## lonestrchic23

Good job on the video!! I would have been tongue tied & stuttering if I tried to make a video 

I agree, you need a cut to a bit showing the animals eating it.

I'm wanting to try this out, but will have to wait until I move.... Still trying to figure out how I would feed it as I usually feed my grain on the milk stand, and I don't see a fodder mat fitting in my feeder easily...lol Guess it would be something I'd have to play with a bit..


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## melwynnd

lonestrchic23 said:


> Good job on the video!! I would have been tongue tied & stuttering if I tried to make a video
> 
> I agree, you need a cut to a bit showing the animals eating it.
> 
> I'm wanting to try this out, but will have to wait until I move.... Still trying to figure out how I would feed it as I usually feed my grain on the milk stand, and I don't see a fodder mat fitting in my feeder easily...lol Guess it would be something I'd have to play with a bit..


LOL, that was about take 400, so I did a fair amount of stammering. It was also pitch dark by the time we got the final take done, so couldn't add any animals.

You would only want to feed about 1/4 of a mat a day to your Nubian, so you'd need to cut it up anyway. You could just put the chunks in the feeder at milking.

Maybe I'll have to design a special "Fodder Feeder"..... :biggrin

Sherry


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## NubianSoaps.com

http://www.elitealpacabreedingsystems.com/library/Growing_Barley_Grass.pdf


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## Gatsby

I'm new on this forum.

We're currently growing fodder for our llamas. We're adding two Oberhasli soon The llamas clean up all of it (grass, roots and seeds). Here's a nice link about growing fodder with a flood and drain system. The trays have drains and an overflow valve. He has 3 posts about fodder and the comments also have a lot of details. We're looking into building a system like this in our storage room off of the garage. I've been spouting for our chickens for a few years now. I gave them one tray of fodder, but I'm afraid that the long grass will impact their crops, so I decided to continue with just the sprouts.

http://pacapride.wordpress.com/2012...ed-new-flood-and-drain-tray-system-installed/

And here's a nice link that has nutritional information on various grains and seeds for sprouts and grass.

http://www.natureswonderland.com.au/articles/sprouting-seeds/

-Heather


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## NubianSoaps.com

Thank you Heather for this information. I am going to be growing fodder before the does freshen in March. I am also going to do some hydroponic for plants and growing out fish with the caged water holders, in my green house.


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## Gatsby

My Dad tried growing tomatoes hydroponic in his greenhouse years ago (about 15 years or so) and he gave it up and went back to seasonal produce in his garden. It was his first attempt and maybe he didn't have the minerals right? I tasted the tomatoes and they tasted just like the kind you get in the store off-season. Would love to know more now as we have an 8x12 greenhouse that needs to be built/assembled. Any recommendations on links/books?

He's been growing in gardens (with organic treated soil) since before I was born. And then in turn, he's helped me to get started in my gardens after I ventured out on my own So now, I've had veggie gardens for over 20 years (I'm on 5 acres now). Now I'm into herbs and I want to expand. I'm studying to become a Master Herbalist and I've been planting herbs around the perimeter....but need more for herbs and fruit trees.

I have many questions about fodder with new goats coming to your property. Shall I post them here or another post?


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## NubianSoaps.com

Yes just keep posting here, I am using all this info also 

This is what we use in our rain catchment systems we are doing, and this is what I am going to put in the green house.





How to build a really simple IBC aquaponic system using a minimal amount of tools.

................................................

This is a very basic one in a greenhouse.


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## Ashley

I've been seriously considering investing in one of these.. what about the mold concerns? Is there a chance of undetectable mold causing a problem, or is it going to be something you can see/smell so you know the batch is ok to feed? 

I read about someone feeding their chickens pretty much solely on this stuff. What a great way to feed chickens in winter!


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## quartzridgeranch

You can smell and see the mold. I have had it on a couple trays and I just tossed them. It was only due to the temperatures getting really high for a couple days. 

I feed my chickens this and they free range. I do give them a bit of scratch at night when I know it is going to be super cold.


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## NPgoats

I have been looking at the fodder system (many systems) for more than a year now and have questions about its use being safe. Does anyone know the answer to these questions...Is Prussis Acid/HCN a problem with fodder? Has it been addressed if it is? Which grains would cause this problem? Any info on this would be great.
Thanks, Linda M


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## linuxboy

I suppose it's possible with sudangrass/sorghum. But why would you feed that when barley (or COB) is cheap and available?


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## NPgoats

Pav, I'm not sure what you're asking? 
I believe there are other plants besides Sudan/Sorghum that cause HCN...
and because I don't know what they are I was trying to find out if growing at an accelerated rate would create that problem with fodder!???
Are corn, barley, and oats the only (safe) plants to grow or are they the cheapest plants to grow as fodder?
What about wheat? I have heard a lot about wanting to start wheat as fodder and I believe that is another plant that can contain HCN. I have very limited knowledge about HCN even after reading many articles from state universities. Just trying to be safe with a new trend out there.
What are the best choices?
Linda


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## linuxboy

> there are other plants besides Sudan/Sorghum that cause HCN...


True, beans, cassava, others have cyanogenetic glucosides. My question is why bother with them when the bulk fodder cereals are cheap and safe.



> Are corn, barley, and oats the only (safe) plants to grow or are they the cheapest plants to grow as fodder?


Cheapest. 


> What about wheat? I have heard a lot about wanting to start wheat as fodder and I believe that is another plant that can contain HCN.


Wheat should be fine. Proto-wheats such as spelt, harder to say.

Also, the schedule for fodder minimizes HCN formation. Keep it 75F or below and the seeds soaked, and it should work out to keep HCN pretty low even for millet. Nobody has done this research that I know of specifically for fodder.


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## NPgoats

Next question(s)...
Sherry (melwynnd) posted nutritional information on barley fodder. I was concerned that with such a high protein level if fed to horses (for example) wouldn't they founder? In traditional feeding I was told by a vet that too much protein would founder a horse. Does this apply here or is the crude protein absorbed differently in animals with fodder than with (unsprouted) grain? 
I know soooo many questions! But this is how you learn...ask, investigate/research and compare!
Linda


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## linuxboy

Protein is fine provided there's enough roghage. No foundering. Your vet is wrong or incomplete, as protein is only one co-factor. Nutrition cannot be analyzed by a single component.

edit: unless there are kidney issues.


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## MF-Alpines

Trying to wrap my mind around all of this. We are definitely going to do this, not solely for the goats, but for the pigs and our beef cattle that we'll be getting come spring. In fact, for all I know, my husband may have already ordered a small system to start. He is very excited.

What I haven't been able to glean from this info and from sites posted and other sites, in general, does this replace the grain normally fed or the hay? Or perhaps a combination of both? Sounds like a combo of both. What about fat?

And for dairy goats, what about calcium content? If we were to sprount alfalfa, or a combo of alfalfa and another seed or grain, would the calcium content be satisfactory? Anyone have a link? I haven't found much about calcium content.


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## Ashley

Protein does cause an insulin response, at least in humans. Meat is quite insulinogenic. Since insulin puts protein into muscle cells, I would expect this works the same for horses. For horses that are already insulin resistant, high protein foods can cause problems.


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## Ashley

I definitely want to get one of these... now to have the money. *sigh* 

I just think this would be the most excellent thing for chickens in the winter!


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## Ping

I too am wondering about the alfalfa and calcium component. When people say this replaces good quality "hay" are they referring to alfalfa or grass hay?


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## Daniel Babcock

Ping 

We are getting 25-28% protien from our Baraley fodder . . . not bad


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## karenowilkins

Daniel.....did you have your fodder tested? And has anyone answered the calcium question yet?


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## Nana

I am going to try this. My only concern is that if everyone starts buying barley grain will that cause a shortage of grain to plant and prices may rise?


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## NubianSoaps.com

Prices are going to rise anyway. Also fodder raising is not new, several of the guys I am talking with on facebook have been doing this for 8 years. Vicki


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## Nana

I was thinking about putting compressed coconut fibers below the fodder to keep it moist and only watering 2 times per day. Does anyone think this would work? If not I have some fountain pumps somewhere.


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## todog

i havent been keeping up with this but my question is; the fodder is not to replace all of the hay or all of the grain, right? i should not like to eat only 1 thing for forever. balanced feed would be a variety. the fodder is just to help relieve the pressure on the pocket book with the price of hay. :yes


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## Nana

Where is everyone finding seed. I have checked the mills around here and they don't have any in yet.


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## NubianSoaps.com

It's not seed, it's grain. The wheat is sold to grind to make bread etc. The barley is whole grain livestock feed. If you do use seed, make sure it is not coated or dehulled.


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## MF-Alpines

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> It's not seed, it's grain. The wheat is sold to grind to make bread etc. The barley is whole grain livestock feed. If you do use seed, make sure it is not coated or dehulled.


Can you expound upon this? Because I am truly ignorant. My husband bought the 18 tray system. Seed, grain, what do we buy?


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## NubianSoaps.com

Who did you buy it from? If half pint homestead, she has a blog that explains EVERYTHING! Her videos are great also. Vicki


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## Nana

I set one up and have had several feedings to the animals already. Of course I introduced it slowly. The goats just love it and the llamas and chickens also. I used a submersible pump bought at a hardware store which I already had to empty out water troughs to clean them and a heavy duty timer from home depot (less that 20 dollars for the timer) and had to split it to a shallow bin on top of a shelf system and the other back into the container that catches after it drains out of the trays. I had a 4 foot shelf with 8 levels and used regular trays steins which I drilled holes in. The store also had some with holes already. 4 fit on each of the shelves. The trick was to not have it splash outside of the bin but I found a sandbox cover and drilled holes in one end to divert the water into a bin. I was wondering if anyone tried vinegar in the rinse water? I may try it and see what happens. I would think it would prevent mold and keep away bacteria. I will have to let you all know how it worked. You really don't have to spend a lot of money to set this up. I put it in my kitchen. Sure it isn't the prettiest with the sand box cover but it is functional and the kids like the rain sound it makes and enjoy watching it grow. So far I have tried Barley seed and now am trying whole grain wheat. They guys at the feed mill were very helpful. I plan to relocate it to the basement in front of a patio door. More light may make it grow faster as I have it in a north window.


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## MF-Alpines

Thanks, Wendy.

Vicki, my husband has, but I have not. Guess I better get reading.


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## NubianSoaps.com

I am signed up for her email blog, she sends you little reminders, hints, and musings every couple of days or once a week. And go on the fodder site on facebook....now these are the big guns.


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## MF-Alpines

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> I am signed up for her email blog, she sends you little reminders, hints, and musings every couple of days or once a week. And go on the fodder site on facebook....now these are the big guns.


Which fodder site? Fodder Fun?

I have to say, DH has looked into this far more than I have, but it is I that takes care of feeding the animals, ie. nutrients. So I really need to get on board.


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## NubianSoaps.com

No it's just named Fodder, I added you, it should be on your facebook page now. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> No it's just named Fodder, I added you, it should be on your facebook page now. Vicki


Thanks!


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## MF-Alpines

I found an analysis that was done on alfalfa fodder. It can be found here:

http://www.foddersystems.com/downloads/alfalfa.pdf

As you can see, the calcium/phosphorus ratio is not what we want compared to alfalfa hay or pellets. Bummer.

I'm wondering (or thinking out loud) if some form of calcium could be added to the water during the growing cycle that would add calcium, in an absorbable form, to the fodder. What forms of calcium are the most beneficial for dairy animals?

Thoughts?


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## linuxboy

You want a calcium form that dissolves readily into calcium ions if you are injecting or manually adding. Alternatively, use a slow release form and leave it in there, but this is less certain and better suited to incorporating in the land. Slow release examples are oyster shells, calcium-bearing rocks (limestone). Fast release are calcium chloride (preferred) and citrate.


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## MF-Alpines

Thanks, Pav.


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## buckrun

I would like to know how everyone plans to feed this. I mean physically how do you serve it up so all this labor intensive food does not end up on the ground. I saw a photo of someone who just placed clumps of it on the ground for the animals to step all over and waste. My goats won't even eat something another goat has snarfed let alone grub on the ground for it where everyone stomps manure. Makes no sense to work that hard and then waste it. So please explain your feeding arrangements and post photos if you can. I know Vicki has a big deep trough that would work but please tell me (so I can sleep at night ) that you are not just tossing it on the ground


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## MF-Alpines

No, Lee, we will not be tossing it on the ground. Except maybe the pigs. I think we must have seen the same picture. Was it on FB on a snow-covered ground?

Anyway, we plan on feeding it in tubs or in a trough for the goats. And will actually cut it up and feed it on the milkstand in place of their grain. Not sure how well that will work, but we're going to try it.


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## punchiepal

We hand feed it out to some of them. The ones that are on the milkstand get it pulled apart and put into their bucket to eat while milking.


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## Ozark Lady

So, we exchange this for the grains that we are currently feeding, right?
We also need to make changes gradually. What would be the change ratio? For every 4 ounces of grain, substituted with fodder, I would need to feed: x amount.
But what is x? Could x be the amount of grains that we sprouted? So could we do an even exchange? 4 ounces less in the grain fed mix, and 4 ounces of grain now sprouted?
So, I would need two dishes at the milking stand, one for dry grains and one for the wet fodder? I am talking about in the beginning of transitioning to the fodder idea.
I am thinking of using one of those small sprout set ups made for humans for small quantities in the beginning. Maybe even a canning jar with a sprout draining lid on it.
For the first feedings of fodder, would I offer it at both milkings or just once a day? Do I start young kids directly on this fodder? In what quantities?


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## Ashley

Mine will be getting their fodder in the same bucket they get their dry grain in. Fodder is fed at 1-3% of bodyweight. So a 150 lb doe may get 6-9 lbs of fodder per day if she is milking.


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## Ozark Lady

I saw the % for when they are on full fodder.
It is the early beginnings that I am unsure of.
I don't want to just add it to what they are getting now.
But, they are either pregnant, milking or very young kids, so I don't want to cut down their feed during transition. The babies are less than a month old and just starting to nibble on grains, fine time to transition them. If it is digestible for kids that young.
For me after having dairy goats for 26 years and always feeding them grains while milking, it is a huge transition for me.
I don't know if I am brave enough to give up all grain feeding.
It will take some getting used to, by me, if not by the goats!


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## MilkMan

Ozark Lady said:


> I saw the % for when they are on full fodder.
> It is the early beginnings that I am unsure of.
> I don't want to just add it to what they are getting now.
> But, they are either pregnant, milking or very young kids, so I don't want to cut down their feed during transition. The babies are less than a month old and just starting to nibble on grains, fine time to transition them. If it is digestible for kids that young.
> For me after having dairy goats for 26 years and always feeding them grains while milking, it is a huge transition for me.
> I don't know if I am brave enough to give up all grain feeding.
> It will take some getting used to, by me, if not by the goats!


You don't have to give up the grain completely. We've been making/feeding the goats fodder for about a month now. Instead of eliminating their grain, I just cut the amount per milking in half. I also changed their ration from a sweet type feed (Vicki, I know that is good news to your ears) to a whole grain mix that contains peas, corn, oats, BOSS, beet pulp, and citrus pulp. My timing was perfect as all my girls are now fresh. They are making good milk on the fodder/whole grain regiment and keeping good condition. True test will be in a month or so when they start hitting their peak production.


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## Ozark Lady

I had wheat berries on hand, so I have been playing with this fodder growing idea.
I stored the berries in one quart canning jars. And as an experiment, I opened one jar, and just took a few ounces out daily to put in dishes to start sprouting. I am on day 8? Anyhow, I found that it does better with a plastic cover for me. I had one dish get up to about 2" tall, and took that out to feed the goats, they looked at it and me, like: Are you nuts woman? Anyhow it took a lot of convincing and I finally got the herd queen to eat a few bites of it. So far, I just put a clump in their individual feeders, like a treat, until I get them to agree to eat it.
Today will be attempt number 2. Hopefully, I can get at least one more to try it and the herd queen to continue nibbling it. I think for my goats it is going to be an acquired taste!

I wonder if barley or alfalfa would be more palatable for the goats? I had a human who liked wheat grass taste it and he pronounced it very good! I have never tasted sprouts that didn't come out of a can, so I have no basis of comparison. I didn't have any mold problems at all. I did have fruit flies starting to hang around. I know what that means... so I will need to be really careful about rinsing several times a day.


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## H Diamond Farms

Found this link.. has a nice list of how much to feed to a lot of different species. Seems to be consist with my research and puts it all in one place. 
http://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/sprouted-fodder.aspx#axzz2RykJDEz4

ETA: I didn't read the full article, just skimmed parts. So if there is something questionable, sorry!


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## akuckartz

*Where do you get seed so cheap?*

We live in New Mexico and have not found a barley seed supply cheap enough to justify trying this out. Where do you all get your seed from?


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## SANDQ

I am now very interested in fodder, but I too would like to know about calcium levels. I cant get alfalfa pellets here in Bulgaria, so my source is alfalfa hay. If by feeding fodder I can cut out my expensive alfafalfa hay and use grass hay, where does my calcium requirement come from them.
Linuxboy, you mentioned Calcium Chloride as a source of quick release. We use calcium chloride in our cheese making, could we add this to the irrigating water of our fodder system and would this increase the calcium levels in the fodder to meet the goats requirements?
Another question about the logistics of feeding said fodder, could it not be put through a garden chipper along with the hay, so it come out the other end as a fodder hay mix?


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