# Swollen pastern?



## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

One of my kids that was born on Tuesday is having a problem with one of her legs. Her left rear pastern is swollen and warm. What could cause this? And how do I treat it? She was fine yesterday. She is not with the big goats so she couldn't have been stepped on or anything. We dipped her umbilical cord/stump in iodine, so I don't suspect navel ill.

Any ideas?


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Oh, here is a picture of her BEFORE her leg was swollen with the area that is now swollen highlighted. I know the picture makes it look like it may be swollen in the picture, but it is just normal newborn joints.  She doesn't put any weight on it now and it is all filled out between the dewclaw and the heel.


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Could she have gotten bitten by something? Otherwise probably a sprain or break...does she cry when you touch it? I would advise some Banamine and check her temperature. A puncture wound could also cause a very painful abscess. If it is a bite maybe some Benedryl would help.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

I doubt she could have been bitten - it has only just started to warm up here - but I suppose it is possible. I will look more closely to see if I can see anything. It doesn't seem to be broken. No puncture that I could see, but like I said I will look more closely. I will also see if I can get her temp. I KNOW I have several thermometers.... Just where to find them! How do they manage to just disappear?!

Oh, one other thing that may give a clue into solving this mystery - Cookie (the dam of this kid) had a buckling last year that got what we believe to have been navel ill. We treated him with lots of antibiotics and he got well. His issue was swollen joints too - but his was his knees. Could there be something genetic or nutritional that could cause this? The doeling's twin brother seems to be fine.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I would just take her temp every 12 hours and watch it. If she sprained it, the swelling is wrap enough for the injury. If it is going to be joint or navel ill, the temp will get higher or she will exhibit more limping, more swellings, or an umbilical cord that is not drying corrrectly, or looks dried but has a soft spot high in the hair. One of the reasons we started spraying feet along with the cord. Vicki


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks for the advice. 

The swelling has spread up her leg into her hock and thigh area. She won't even limp on it - just holds her leg completely off the ground. It looks like there is also some swelling in her right foreleg around her knee.

She does not have a high temperature - in fact it is rather low. Last night it was 100.4 and this morning it was only 98.6!!! I brought her into the house to help her warm up a bit. Her brother is doing GREAT and is a little rascal. His temperature is 101. Can a kid have joint or navel ill with out having a fever?


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Navel/joint ill tends to affect a single joint. I have never seen it spread like this. Is there any sign of a wound/cut on her leg at all? I guess I'm thinking cellulitis/ staph infection of some kind. I would start her on penicillin, keep her warm. Wouldn't hurt to have a vet look at her if that's an option for you.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Here is a picture that shows the swelling in her leg:










No signs of any cut or wound. her foot is so swollen that I can fit my finger between her toes.

She has taken a turn for the worse. She cannot hold her head up and laying on her side. She is crying like she is in pain - sounds like kids that have entero so I gave her the anti-toxin. I hope she makes it.


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

This sounds strange... is her leg/foot warm to the touch? If it's cold it could be a blood clot. She's awfully young for that though. I just don't know what to tell you...I have never seen anything like this.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

PM Quiverfull or Astronut 1...yes a kid can have navel/joint ill with no fever, and yes it can effect one joint after the other. First I would peroxide the whole area and look for a problem, a wound would fizz. Otherwise get her on antibiotics right now, this is not entero, quit ruining her curd formation in her tummy with this. You will have to tube her milk, hydrate her subq, and get antibiotics into her. I don't recall which one they used that worked so well, I always use naxcel on infants...think it was Baytril. PM them. Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

naxel here for navel ill and agree with Vicki


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks. I pm'd Astronaut 1. I know the swelling isn't entero, but the way she is acting in addition to the swelling made me wonder if she might have entero on top of the other issue. You know how it is - when it rains it pours! She is still alive so that is good. I have given her milk - she did swallow about a cup - but I had to really coax and hold her head up. I'll hope to hear from Astronaut 1 soon! Oh, and Beth, yes, it is warm to the touch.


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

good luck with your baby


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

we had navel ill here with NO fever. I argued with the vet about it. the symptoms that we had was that they just seemed kind of 'puny' and that they limped and favored the legs (this happened to two separate bucklings that we had at the same time) The vet took xrays to confirm. we treated with baytril and saw a complete recovery. I woudl definitely be getting big gun antibiotics into the kid along with banamine and, I think we added dex. But def antibiotics...

I will telll you that this situation was a make or break one for our vet. When he told us navel ill with no fever and then RX baytril which was NOT what was the standard I thought "that is IT buster, you are DONE< no more messing around with you!" Except that we figured that we had nothing to lose...and they got better :lol Both bucklings are now 2 years old and have been used successfully for breeding in twi separate herds. (LynninTX's Anson and our Legend)

for the record we really did not see significant swelling or heat from the afflicted joints, we really just thought that they injured themselves jumping around. We figured...they are in pain, of course they dont want to eat, are acting with less "pep". tThe fact that we also saw no fever supported this. 

also could it be a bite?


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

I don't think it's a bite - it is cold enough out that I haven't even seen any bugs outside yet. 

How young can they get Navel ill? She is only 3 days old. Can it take them down this fast? She was fine Tuesday and Wednesday. Then Thursday she had the one back pastern swollen. Then this morning her whole leg and her knee were swollen. We brought her into the house and by 1:00 she was flat and couldn't hold her head up. She is now starting to have spasms. That part doesn't sound like navel ill to me. That and her crying made me think entero for that part. Like I said I know the swelling isn't entero.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Oh, and her belly looks a bit bloated?


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

I do not know re the entero.

I do know that one thing that we changed after our experience is that we now make SURE that the shavings are kiln dried. We didnt know better back then :lol


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

yes navel ill will happen that fast and no I don't believe it to be entro in a kid this age only on milk.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks again, but we lost her. :sniffle :down Can navel ill kill a kid that fast?

After I last wrote, I went to look at her again. She was breathing strangely - kind of shook and shuddered with each breath and she was breathing rapidly. It looked like she may have been gagging or something, so I got out my sucker that I use for newborns to help clear their mouth if they inhale fluid at birth. I sucked a TON of **** out of her throat. It was clear to slightly yellow. It looked like the mucus/drainage such as you would have when you have a cold. She also didn't seem to have had a bowel movement since I brought her in this morning so I gave her an enema. That really helped the bloating and let out a lot of poop. She seemed to do better after the enema and clearing her mouth and throat. But then she got worse and just faded away. 

What on earth killed this baby?!?!?!?!?!? :shrug :tearhair :shrug2


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

could it be a soil-borne clostridium? It almost sounds like a fast moving species like a black-leg type bug. I'd be real tempted to ask the vet (if you have a good one) if its worth doing a necropsy or cultures on it. If you do have thet kind of thing in the soil around there, it might be something that could be vaccinated for to prevent future loss. Speaking of loss, so sorry for yours- she was a real beauty, I feel so bad that this happened to you...


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## Bethany (Jan 9, 2008)

Oh Eliya, I'm so sorry. :sniffle That is so sad, I hope you can figure out what it was.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Thank you Laura. I have never had this happen before. I will research the black leg bug. Is that what it is called? My vet isn't much good for goats, but I could ask her. A necropsy with tissue testing is over $200 here. If it could help me save others it would be worth it, but I'm just not sure if they could even find anything.

Any more ideas anyone?


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks Bethany. We were posting at the same time.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

BTW< I'd get rid of any supplies or equipment or disinfect them really, really good, including that bulb syringe. If it is clostridium, you could spread it even years later, spores can live a very long time in soil or on other inanimate objects. 

Did the skin seem mushy or feel a little crackly or like it was puffed up with air? That is almost pathognomic for a clostridium, but if not it still doesnt point against it. This really worries me for you, since if it is a c.chavoei (?sp) it may infect others either from the spores shed by the doeling or from the source she got it from. Nasty, nasty bugs, that species can kill in 24 hrs or less, its in the same main family as gas gangrene. Any standing water or a lot of rain in the area recently?


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Yes, I have gotten rid of (or disinfected and boiled) everything she touched while she was sick. The other kids look and act great still. How long would it be before they got it if it was something like you were mentioning? Can it spread to humans???

The skin was not mushy, crackly or puffed with air. It was swollen hard like my ankle swelled when I sprained it. Very firm.

We haven't had any rain but lots of melting snow in the last week. Most of it ran off and there wasn't standing water in their pen. At least not much. Now it is all frozen.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

I'm so sorry you lost her, yep, she was a beauty. I wish I had answers, but only questions pop in to my head.


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## Chaty (Oct 25, 2007)

:sniffle sorry you lost her but it sounds like it was for the best ...now she is running in greener pastures with no pain...sorry again


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Am so sorry.


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## Dover Farms (Oct 25, 2007)

I am so sorry Eliya!! She was such a beautiful baby.

I don't know what it was....but I sure hope you find out!


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