# What is Good Nubian Breed Character?



## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Just wondering . . . if you stuck a roman nose, long ears, a deeper udder and wider spacing on the teats on a Swiss breed body -- would it be a Nubian?

What other traits go to make up good breed character in the Nubian? (I don't mind hearing about the other breeds, too, but I am primarily trying to understand what makes a good Nubian a Nubian).

Also, do any good Nubians have wattles on the neck, or is that a Swiss breed thing? 

Trying to learn here. Thanks in advance! :thankyou


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## Little Moon (Dec 29, 2007)

In addition to everything you listed - nose, ears etc - I am going to add stature. Nubian's are a dual purpose goat, meat and milk, but generally considered a dairy goat. Anyhow, IMHO a great Nubian is large and powerful, in addition to having wonderful ears and that beautiful roman nose.

Anne


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Ideally, other than the ears and nose, full size breed dairy goats should be quite similar. When you listen to the judges reasons in the show ring and read what to look for in the Linear Appraisal book they are talking about what makes a good dairy gooat. Of course I do want my Nubians to have Roman noses and long ears, but if I were to choose between a doe who has ears three inches past her nose and a so so udder and a doe who has ears just past the tip of her nose and a high, tight capacious udder, I'd choose the second goat. When I breed my Nubians, I try to get goats who excel on the ADGA score card.
Some breeds are supposed to be taller and more powerful than others. Nubians and Saanens are definately bigger than most Toggs, but other than ears, nose, color (in the Swiss breeds) and sometimes stature, the other things specific to a breed are usually something breeders try and breed out - Low rear udder in Nubians, splayed toes in Toggs, weak feet and pasterns in La Manchas.


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

I think I did well today -- I went to see some dry twin does from a dairy background -- American Nubians. I want more does to practice my AI skills on, and they were literally around the corner from me. Should have been milked but were dry. Have good strength, big rib-cage, width, depth. I can't tell much about udders as they are 28 months old and were never bred or milked-- only can say that each has two teats and one of them is a bit "poochy" in the udder area while the other is flat as can be. Only lactation can tell me more -- well, I'm a beginner here, but I figure an experienced person might know: :help2

--- why would one twin have a slightly fleshier undeveloped udder than the other -- anyone have ideas?

They have papers. The tattoos match. They seem quite healthy. No lumps, bumps or abscesses on any of the goats I saw. They tested negative for Johnnes. I will test them for everything else.

Well fleshed. Only flaw I can see is that they are spoiled pets and never trained to walk on a lead or milk stanchion (although I can control and lead them by hooking my arm gently around their necks -- very gentle, sweet goats). They cry a lot for human company -- like frightened howling human-kids (Nubians!) AND they have never had their hooves trimmed -- ever. I have a lot of work to do. :whew

The owner was a middle-aged man who was uncomfortable talking about things like heats and semen and tail-twitching -- so he has several goats that have never been bred. :blush2 He finds it too much work to take does to board somewhere, or to rent a buck, so he's selling these dairy does -- unbred still at age 28 months. (I would be more embarrassed to have dairy animals sitting around and never bred!) :crazy

But I want to say thank you -- for sharing ideas on Nubian character. I left my house saying that if they did not have strength as well as ears and roman noses, I would not get them. I figured the strength was something I do not see so much -- the Nubians of my childhood were built like block-houses. OK, maybe a little coarser, too. These are better-built as milk producers (physique-wise) than my purebred doe, who is supernaturally narrow . . . I thought she was getting fatter until I saw these darlings and realized that she has a long, long way to go. And a lot of it is not fat or thin, but basic dairy character -- having the depth and width to eat enough to really produce.

I Still want to hear more about what people think is essential to Nubian character . .. more, please? :hi


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ask every breeder and you will get a different answer. No way do I want my nubians bodies to be like swiss breeds, and they aren't. Nubian bloodlines have very different heads, from nearly flat heads, shorter thicker ears, narrow nostrils even when the animal carries a great deal of width in the body. I like the exaggerated chiseled features around the eyes (think dinosaurs) and roman noses, thin long bell shaped ears...I will cull too short of ear in a kid. I think it also is why there are so many less BDIS going to nubians than to other breeds especially by swiss breed judges, in excellent show circuits, the swiss body is optimal on the score card.

Sadly we really can't talk bloodlines openly on forums, it hurts peoples feelings, everything is SOO personal now adays. Vicki


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

> Sadly we really can't talk bloodlines openly on forums, it hurts peoples feelings, everything is SOO personal now adays. Vicki


Why not - I think each has strengths and weaknesses and it is up to personal preference?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Because they like to pass my writings around, email the breeders, take the conversation out of context, copy and paste info that other breeders send them on the forum and pass it off as theirs...you know junior high stuff  Normally I couldn't care less, but I am to busy right now to pay attention. But Ziggy you go right ahead I have your back dance:


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

I see both points and think we should talk more openly about bloodlines so that new people can know just a little bit more about what could be thrown out of the gene pools of sire and dam, that way maybe a few less people will get stuck with animals they can't show or breed for fear of passing on undesirable traits, isn't that what breeding goats is all about anyway?

It's about time people grew up a little bit and learned how to handle some criticism, what would really be the difference between talking about them on an open forum or behind their backs, it's still going to be said anyway, just more people will know about it. JMO 
Lynn


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

You are so right Lynn. It will be said. In the open it might save some people some misery.


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

An unbred 28 month old Nubian with a fleshier udder might (MIGHT) be about the attachments to come. Pat Hendrickson (ADGA judge and Director) showed me how to check future fore udders on virgin does...stand behind, put your hand, palm up, through the back legs, onto their mid belly and bring your hand back over the udder. If you can feel looseness or a "catch" where the udder starts, that's the future attachments--tight or loose even a pocket.


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

ellie said:


> An unbred 28 month old Nubian with a fleshier udder might (MIGHT) be about the attachments to come. Pat Hendrickson (ADGA judge and Director) showed me how to check future fore udders on virgin does...stand behind, put your hand, palm up, through the back legs, onto their mid belly and bring your hand back over the udder. If you can feel looseness or a "catch" where the udder starts, that's the future attachments--tight or loose even a pocket.


Thank you Ellie. Cool! :cool


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## Hearts In Dixie (Oct 29, 2007)

Great to know Ellie! I will have to start feeling my yearlings.

Marla


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

I noticed something about the twin does I have -- and about Nubian body shapes. Seen from the side, one of them has a very rectangular build, while the other is more curvy -- like a paisley design or a paramecium-shape. Does that make any sense? :???

Are these typical Nubian shapes, or typical of dairy goats in general? Do the shapes indicate anything? I thought I observed differences in shapes like this in lines of goats -- related to herd-names. But now I see it in the twins - -they are different.

And I just had this awful thought - maybe they are not solid-built chunky Nubians -- maybe they are just over-fed? :/

Gosh -- is there a book on "Everything about Nubian Goat conformation that you would want to obsess about but don't yet know? " :rofl


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

Complete Illustrated Standard of the Dairy Goat


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Like "wedge shaped"? That is the desirable shape of a doe, you want that wedge type shape, both from the side and the top view.


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## 2Sticks (Dec 13, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> I like the exaggerated chiseled features around the eyes (think dinosaurs) and roman noses, thin long bell shaped ears...


Vicki,
What a wonderfully clear description. I've pondered over just how best to describe what to me is the Nubian head I'm drawn to and when I read "dinosaur" I realized that, that was the exact description I've been looking for. It feels good to finally be able to put my thoughts into words.

Tamera


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Our appraiser last year pointed that out to me. It was not something I had paid attention to or knew was a good thing. But the "dinosaur" eyes are part of dairy character, refinement.


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Ashley said:


> Like "wedge shaped"? That is the desirable shape of a doe, you want that wedge type shape, both from the side and the top view.


If that is the case, then my free goat and one of the twins are actually better than I thought. I just thought it was "different" -- did not realize it was good.


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

Chris,
why not post a pic of your doe? Some of the experts might give a little constructive criticism, but in the long run you might better understand what to breed for.. Just a thought  
Lynn


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

I have to figure out how to get the size down to something that can be sent to the list. I was having computer trouble at the time I bought the camera, but may be able to run the software that can size down the photos now. Let me see what I can do. That is a great idea.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

If you want to email them to me, I would be happy to post them for you. My email is [email protected]


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## Asian Goats (Feb 12, 2009)

I do not wish to offend any breeders of nubians.There are many quality breeders of this goat, but I wish to ask this question.Many years back as I was researching this breed,one bloodline seemed to be something extra,W Bar Santana.Who bred the W Bar Santana and is this bloodline still operating today?
Just for personal interest.

Dinosaur eyes,heck mine have the bodies to go with that.

Thank you
Michael


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

Chris, 
go to www.picnik.com it is the best site to re-size photos, and to goof around with, it's free to an extent, but always wants you to upgrade to use the real neat features.... I have yet to up grade 

Lynn


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

BAR-W Santana J was used and is behind alot of stock. Heatherwoods Clovers Saint is a buck that Tim Pruitt used, Wildwood, Willow Run...coming out of Cadillac and Gasconade even if you don't have Santana J in your paperwork, you have these famous animals that made him in your paperwork. Vicki


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Bar-W Santana J was born in 1981. His dam was Satin who was born in 1976. He was basically Cadillac in his breeding. His breeder reportedly could put udders on a fence post. Santana J was the best known of his creations and was an udder buck. Like a lot of Cadillac bucks though he didn't have breed character to go with it - having shorter ears than desired. Cadillac style animals were generally small in stature but very correct with excellent toplines and sharp and dairy. When linebreeding on Santana J - the resulting breedings produced even smaller animals. They lost stature. In the 1990's Faith Farm used him in their breeding program and produced several excellent does who were showcased at the Nationals. Faith Farm ESJ Eve was Reserve National Champion in 1994 and is pictured on the INBA website at I-N-B-A.org A twin sister to Eve - Faith Farm Eden was even better than Eve but died after kidding at around 4 years of age.

As Vicki mentioned I owned a buck, Heatherwoods Clovers Saint who was a tall uphill buck. He had about 8 champion daughters in the Full Circle and Wildwood herds. Our best doe from him was SGCH Pruittville's Huckleberry 92EEEE. She was a doe who grew much larger than her dam and quickly became the largest doe in the herd. She very consistently passed her size on to her offspring. Huckleberry had nice breed character that she got from her dam's side. She was mostly bred on Cadillac style animals. She lived to 11 1/2 years of age. Her sire Saint was almost 12 when I put him down - mostly due to his poor health because of old age arthritis. I still have semen available on Saint.


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

As I recall, those Cadillac lines were not noted for high milk production. but someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Asian Goats (Feb 12, 2009)

Thank you for that info on Bar W Santana J.One more question,who is the Frosty Marvins?I also ran across this bloodline at the same time and it seems this bloodline is highly rated also.

Thank You
Michael


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

Probably the most famous of Nubian bucks in history, Frosty Marvin (Hallcienda Frosty Marvin) produced 503 offspring including some very famous sons and daughters. Marvin increased milk on most crosses, better breed character, stature. His parents were extreemly inbred--especially his dam-- and FM was often used in very tight breedings, too. For many years, FM lines were crossed with Conquest lines for pretty good milk (from Marvin) and pretty good udders (from Conquest). That didn't always work, but often enough that it was favored breeding for decades.


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

*Re: What is Good Nubian Breed Character? [Now with images . . .]*

OK, now for something really different! From Frosty Marvin and the goats you want to brag about, to . . . :O
plain, ordinary "just goats" that are in need of a little tender-loving-care. Please don't scold me about the long hooves -- I just got the twins and will be working on them when the rain stops!

Top view of Glory and Rose, Rear view of Glory and Rose (Glory is flat, Rose has two puffy lobes to her virgin udder), and you can get a top view of Honey from the last image if it comes through . ..

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Now for some side views, and a front view of my "narrow" goat:

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

It's late and I could swear I sent more pictures -- just as well if they got lost on the internet . . . pictures of LGD, turkeys and dairy sheep and totally unrelated stuff. And one of Honey charging into a dispute with a sheep-wether who really didn't want to argue with her. Ah well. Those really should go to the off-topic files. 

Is this enough to see what the low-end goats are like or would you like close-ups of the heads? Honey has quite a personality, and her ears did not fare well with her altercation with a pup. Glory has the longest toes I've ever seen on a ruminant. You probably don't need to see those. :sigh

It was hard running between the rain drops trying to take pictures, and being attacked by greedy ruminants! I do not know how those professional animal-photographers do it. :nooo


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## Asian Goats (Feb 12, 2009)

Ellie,Tim and all who explained to me about these bloodlines.Very interesting to know.

Thank you
Michael


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