# 1st age to copper bolus



## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Sorry, if this has been asked and answered, but I'm not finding it in a reasonable amount of time...

2 separate questions:

at what age do you first start routinely copper bolusing?

if a dam was showing some signs of deficiency (classic mild hair changes) and was bolused 2 weeks ago, is her 7 wk old doeling likely getting enough in the milk by now?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

There is of course no tests on this, we know blood testing is meaningless and I can't afford to copper liver biopsy a kid when it wouldn't give me the results I would need for the herd as a whole. I want my kids bolused before weaning. Copper is of course much more important to working animals, so alot less copper is needed and you see alot less symptoms of problems in bucks who are not heavily used, and of course dry does need alot less than does who are heavy bred and milking. So since weaning is so stressfull, even off the lambar, I want them copper bolused so I won't see a weight gain stall, and be able to blame it on copper. I also breed my does to kid (usually) at 13 to 14 months old, so the whole program of from birth to 8 and 9 months old is critical to that goal.

Would like to know what others are choosing to do and their thinking behind it. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

thanks for the fast answer Vicki!
makes sense to me.
sounds like you'd say to bolus the 7 week old then?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

We dam raise and so don't suffer the stall of weaning at an age before they can really eat like an adult. 
We bolus at weaning which here is 5 to 6 months and heading into the stresses of changing rumen flora from lush green feeds for bulk to hay and less graze until winter rye is ready for grazing. The quality of graze and browse decreases once it dries in summer and heads to dormancy in fall and this is when we are likely to see a stall in growth. It also puts a lush shiny winter coat on that does not look rough or lay in funny patterns.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

LLB101 said:


> if a dam was showing some signs of deficiency (classic mild hair changes) and was bolused 2 weeks ago, is her 7 wk old doeling likely getting enough in the milk by now?


Lacia, everything I've read suggests that milk is a poor carrier for both selenium and copper, and it is during pregnancy where proper copper levels are vital, because the kid retains those levels at birth and can use those reserves for the first three months of life.

Also, two weeks from bolusing is nowhere near enough time for the copper to be broken down, absorbed, and processed from the rods in an adult doe. It takes longer. The copper oxide rods in the rumen, assuming the bolus was given whole, do not break down well. They break down because of hydrochloric acid in the abomasum.

For kids that amounts to right at 6-8 weeks as the useful period when copper bolusing could physically be done properly, and even then when the rumen has to be developed enough through grain. Most papers suggest 3 months as the earliest time for this reason. Proper bolusing needs the rumen to have the right ridges so that the rods stick. If you give the bolus before that and it doesn't stay in the rumen, it'll just go through and be pooped out. Some rods will remain, of course, but it's not the same thing as bolusing a more mature adult. If you understand that the dynamics are different, then you can bolus as young as a few days... it's just a waste of rods. You're better off feeding a good mineral supplement, then.

End story: 7 weeks is OK, should stay in the rumen then. Right before weaning is a good rule of thumb, but usually not necessary unless the mom was deficient during pregnancy or other things are going on, like copper blocking. Also, copper levels in milk take longer than two weeks to build up, and even then are not enough.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Is the 7 week old kid, actively chewing a cud, eating (not just nibbling) on roughage and grain? Then you can bolus, mine are not. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

She eats hay and forage like a champ, right in with the big goats, unlike her twin sister who nibbles and wanders. I don't know the volume she's actually consuming, but she acts like she's in there eating. So I'm thinking I've seen her cudding, but I will pay attention and look for it specifically, I've been a little distracted and overwhelmed, and she's such a big strong kid she's kind of gotten the least of my attention. 

Only her dam showing the funky hair has me looking at her extra close, and her black fur is brown on her thighs which is one of the 2 funky hair things her mom gets, the other is the pale, long, coarse hair along spine above the tail, hers is still solid black there but she hasn't had long enough to grow the other maybe?

For now, I'll make sure she's getting mineral mix, they have it free choice mixed with Diamond V, but the little ones may not yet be in the habit of going to get it. The best mineral I seem to be able to get locally is the Sweetlix Meatmaker, is there anything I can add to it to boost her for now? Besides just bite the bullet and pay shipping for TechMaster


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Good thread. Thanks for asking this, Lacia.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

> Also, two weeks from bolusing is nowhere near enough time for the copper to be broken down, absorbed, and processed from the rods in an adult doe. It takes longer. The copper oxide rods in the rumen, assuming the bolus was given whole, do not break down well. They break down because of hydrochloric acid in the abomasum.


I'd have to disagree with that. In order to see coat changes in 3-4 weeks the copper would have to have been utilized well before that. The rods are going to start breaking down immediately, and in doing so, slowly release copper, as they break down, until gone.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

sorry, was taking a quick break from tilling when I typed that. What I meant was something like:

1) Milk doesn't have that much copper in it to begin with, even with a doe that has good liver biopsy, the milk alone will not have enough copper to correct a kid deficient in copper. Kids rely either on their existing reserves or the first nibbles from their surroundings for many trace elements. Any in the milk are just a bonus.

2) Even if the doe here was somehow special and was able to somehow produce milk with higher than average trace elements, at 10-14 days, this is exactly the period of time when the bolus mass has spread out and you begin to see some rods in other chambers in an x-ray. For the first 7-10 days, they stay in the rumen (per x-rays). In the rumen, the copper is not available immediately. The rumen is not acidic. The copper oxide actually forms a thin firm of sulfite when in the rumen (IIRC). The rods need to travel all the way down to the abomasum for the hydrochloric acid to work on them. X-rays show this takes somewhere around 10-14 days, with individual differences. So at two weeks, this is just about the time when theoretically some of that copper has begun to be absorbed. 

There are differences, but that is in general how the time frame goes. I agree, at 3 weeks, 4 weeks, it's available. At two weeks, I'm skeptical, but it might be. I'm not sure how long copper levels need to be high to see coat changes. 

This is all assuming the right specific density of copper oxide rods (they need to be .5 mm diameter and 1.5-4 mm long), and a bolus that made its way all the way down to the rumen in tact, and a healthy rumen with folds. If some of the rods make their way to the abomasum immediately, then yes, they would be broken down immediately.

Hope that's more clear. My sources are vet research papers and field studies from the US, New Zealand, and Australia. I haven't personally verified the findings, but it makes sense in my head.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I bet that most kids aren't too copper deficient when born, because mom is going to pull what reserves she does have for her baby right? I bet this is why you are seeing copper deficiency signs after she has kidded. I have a doe that was 4 months out from her bolus and kidded 3 weeks ago and her coat looks like crud (for her-she normally has the most beautiful coat). She had triplets and I think that's why. I rebolused her a week or two ago. We'll see if that helps her out.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks for that specific info Pav. I too have read that until the rods imbed in the abomasum there is no breakdown but never saw a time frame on this happening. Thanks. 
Lee


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

how does any of this change for the folks who give the Cu rods loose, say in banana mash, instead of in a gel cap? 

what takes so long, (10+ days) for it to get into the abomasum?


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

This is only speculation, but I think it could go one of several ways:

1) Some of the rods settle to the bottom of the rumen where grain and heavier bits are, and from there move through the chambers in a dispersed way. Time to reach abomasum would be shorter, and speed of absorption would be a little higher, and more would be excreted.

2)Depending on the rumen contents at the time, the mush could get mixed in, cudded, chewed up, and reach the abomasum quickly, and more would be excreted quickly. This scenario requires the rods to become physically small, 1-1.5 mm in length, because that's when they move through the system faster

3) rods settle down quickly because of their weight and work the same as a bolus administered in a capsule or marshmallow.

It's hard to say, all of those options seem plausible. Would need to try and xray and see. It seems to work for Laura, so maybe the banana mush keeps the rods all together and they sink to the bottom of the rumen?

It takes so long because those rods are heavy and settle to the rumen wall. They are not cudded up again when administered properly. It takes time for the physical contractions of the rumen to disperse them enough. And then they have the honeycomb of the reticulum and the folds of the omasum to get through. It physically takes a while for heavy rods to move through the system. It's not like a bunch of grain or hay can push them along quickly (again, when properly administered).


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

that's in line with what I was thinking and the consequence of the rods moving thru a little faster would be slightly higher risk of toxicity if using the higher range of the dose, or requiring more frequent boluses. The economic/time realities for larger producers often get factored in to these recommendations.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Actually Lacia you won't find many folks at all who test, and Joyce's (saanendoah.com) information came from dairy goat gals up and down the west coast with normal sized herds, it was something I asked her about initially. So although rhetoric is coming from larger producers  the actual testing is done by folks with certainly less than 25 milkers. There were very few large dairies back in those days. A few tests I have seen at the Univeristy level are of course then done on individual animals brought in or dairies ran by the local university, once again depending upon the particular study, it wouldn't put them in a class of large producers because it would be doubtful they are bolusing the entire milking string for a study like that. I don't hold alot of weight in boer goat information because they would at my farm be classed into a nearly dry doe catagory, freshening with 2 kids once a year and nursing for 8 to 12 weeks, it certainly doesn't compare to our dairy goats. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

LOL, I can't see where I said anything about "test" so I'll have to look again later to see exactly what you are replying to. 

My last post was referring to the "rhetoric" as you so aptly use the word, from the amorphous mix of boer and University and dairy folks that generate confusion we all try to sort out for how it applies to our situation.

I just gave them a big load of prunings, and the doeling in question really gets in there and eats with the big goats, her sister more "nibbles" so I'll watch for real cud chewing this evening but its got to be happening if she's eating real amounts of real food, right? This is the same "dirt eating" doeling that started that thread weeks ago.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

yep, real cud chewing.
definitively.
multiple times this evening, she's such a big girl :biggrin

so I'll try a little copper and see if the hair changes.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

This year my mini kids are going to be born under the influence of having a dam copper bolused during pregnancy. I am going to drench copper like I did last year probably starting at about 2 weeks old. I will crush a 1/4 tablet of human copper glycinate and mix with a 1/4 cup of yogurt once a week to keep them 'out of the woods' so to speak, until I can give them copasure. That's my plan.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I am so curious as to why with all this intensive dam care that anyone thinks a kid would be copper deficient?


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Lee I am know that if a doe didn't get copper pre-breeding and again during pregnancy that the copper levels in the kids would be deficient as well. I know this because of Ava (old animal) and I didn't know about bolusing at the time. She was severely deficient and it showed in her amniotic fluid (know that now) and in her sundgau's coat which already had red in the beautiful black when she was born. 

I also know that blockers, such as chlorine and iron, found in our water really are evident by 3 months in kids here.

I had to rebolus Carreen about a month ago because I couldn't see the deficiency in her coat until I shaved her for show. She was ghosting all along the top line. I had bolused her in Oct/Nov when we got her. I have seen her hair slowly coming back to the light red/brown color, it has taken five weeks to see it.

Tam


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

It never crossed my mind either, which is why I've never bolused before about 4 months of age. Of course, I've only been bolusing for just over a year, but hadn't thought to need to bolus earlier when feeding kids dam-bolused goats milk. Maybe when feeding cows milk it might be needed?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I am not referring to the consumption of copper by the kid be it feed- minerals or milk but of the reserves potentially in within the kid born of an adequately coppered dam. 
What would cause depletion in a kid born of a healthy dam?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I just read something also on chlorine, we are on a well, so that isn't part of our problem. But agreed with Lee, certainly the kids would have some reserves if your copper bolusing is working that you would not be seeing symptoms of this in kids that are only 4 weeks old. I think way to many are blaming everything on copper like many blamed everything on bo-se years back. Especially when everyone is searching for a way of copper bolusing which doesn't include what is proven to work with Xrays...sticking the rods in a geletin capsule and inserting it down the throat into the chambers of the stomach......wanting an eaiser way with topdressing, bannanas etc. which has no proof once again that it even works. With no proof that any of the things they are doing are even working, your then jumping to treating much to young of kids with more guesses that don't have any kind of sound logic. Why not those of you who are in the Pacific Northwest contact Joyce, ask her when she started bolusing kids? Ask her if she knew folks who top dressed or simply put the rods into stuff and put it in the mouth for the goats to chew up....were they part of her studies? Did it work? 

Mine isn't done after 12 weeks because of any science, or any symptoms of defficency, mine is done because it's logical to my way of thinking, nothing else....and if I continue down the road of not breeding my kids early like I normally do, but didn't this last year, I may rethink this for myself also. My kids both here and at my friends (he is raising some for me and him) haven't gotten but goat colostrum and maybe a gallon of goat milk this whole season, out of 3 different bucks we have some incredible weight gains on these kids, more so than in previous years on pasteruised goatmilk, only using grocery store milk to top off lambars if I was soaping alot that day. I am not blaming grocery store milk, pasteurising etc...on anything anymore. Not one day of diarrhea in either group.

And sorry, but 4 weeks? Bolsuing? Maybe they are starting to cud but like what was in PAV's info, you have to have a mature ruminant, just like with calves, before bolusing...otherwise hopefully it will go right through them and into the poop and not OD the system because it has too much being absorbed all at once because of the acidity of the milk diet. For myself I think bolusing is best done after weaning or certainly when the milk is not the main part of the diet...and this of course is simply conjecture also. Vicki


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

buckrun said:


> I am not referring to the consumption of copper by the kid be it feed- minerals or milk but of the reserves potentially in within the kid born of an adequately coppered dam.
> What would cause depletion in a kid born of a healthy dam?


Natural copper usage. Meaning dark hair usually needs more than light hair, etc. But the whole copper antagonist story, where other elements interfere with rate of copper absorption isn't the case for a newborn when the newborn has adequate reserves from the dam. Antagonists may interfere with uptake from the mineral supplement and food, of course, but those body reserves should be good for about 3 months. Same with selenium.

Completely agree with Vicki, IMHO bolusing before serious cud chewing, and before weaning, and before the chambers have the right textures is unpredictable because the whole mechanism is different than what has proven to work. It should also not be necessary with proper dam management. If something's off with the kid, I doubt copper is the culprit. Now for those with special situations like high element water, your situation is special because you may need to bolus more frequently or with higher dosages.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I feel like a very important detail is getting screwed up here... I don't see where "4 week" old kid started, but my original post was about a 7, 7.5 week old kid that was eating a lot of real food. Talking about bolusing a 4 week old is ridiculous for all the reasons stated, so I just want to make sure we stay straight with what we are talking about in my case vs other hypotheticals.

Also key, was that this dam has signs of copper deficiency, she black, so maybe needs more, and she's the only one I haven't gotten entiredly caught up on her copper reserves, as they all had deficiency signs when I bought them. She is now on the calendar with a bolusing schedule! 

Kid is now 8 weeks (yday) and is seriously eating and cudding with the big goats. Her twin is not. They were the same weight when born, this kid is now 25% heavier! This is also the kid that was the early dirt eater, so she's just a big strong thriving kid. 

EXCEPT, that her black fur on her thighs and hind end is turning that odd brown that has been a sign of copper deficiency, and goes away x number of weeks after bolusing when I start to see it on the adults. No, I'm not clear on exactly how many weeks, my notes show big variation, likely due in part to seasonality and normal winter/summer coat changes. So that's why I asked the question, cuz I noticed the hair change on her, none of the others, but she's the one that grown gangbusters over all the others too, and is real cudding right along with the adults.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

There were other scenarios being explored in the thread.

I would suggest that you might have better results with lower doses more frequently in your dam if merely gestation produces a deficient kid which is only a surmise. Different animals will process differently and your early maturing kid will be moving her contents more regularly so will need more intervention. But this seems to be over the top starting this 'testing' on an animal this young. Surely the kid has some natural vitality as shown by her progress. It's not like a bit of deficiency will kill the animal. Before bolusing I milked a herd of black LaManchas that I thought were red and brown and they out performed the herd that subsequently was being coddled with all this intervention. They were low on minerals for sure but it's not life threatening -it just improves performance and resistance. So a bit of rough hair and some bleaching does not mean that they are about to expire from lack of copper or suffer dire illness. I think you are again micro managing and this is not always a good thing with goats. If she is eating twigs and shrub branch tips she is getting plenty of copper for the stresses of her age which are growth and building immunity. I would really think twice about doing more than providing loose minerals and plenty of roughage for her to build her system with. There are in fact other things that affect coat quality.
Lee
Another note- we put out minerals fresh daily from a closed container kept in cool dark. Leaving it out all the time does not seem to attract them as readily as putting it out fresh. We have a baby safe where kids can get their share independent of the does and they have used it since a few days old. The dish is low for their comfort and they do not have to watch out for larger animals or compete with any but their peers. Perhaps take time to offer her some on her own and see what she does. Ours come in every evening and dive into it so my belief is if they are not eating some each day they are not getting enough and the reasons can be palatability and ease of access.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Yeah in part, I'm thinking now to just make sure the doeling is really eating the minerals first. 

This dam was first bred at 10 months age, while showing deficient signs I don't feel like she's ever totally caught up. She had triplets as FF so she wasn't "too" deficient, LOL, was bred again earlier than I would have really preferred, etc. So that's why I say I'd like to get her really truly looking like she's caught up. Her dry yearling twin sister's hair changed quickly to the most luxurious black and has stayed that way, but she hasn't put out for us the way the first one has.

The dam was also showing the weird hair when she got the Staph aureus back in early Decemember and that may have been part of that Perfect Storm. Bolusing her then, as well as pushing the loose minerals, may have helped her recover, of course I'll never know for sure, but deficiency is linked to resistance. 

BTW, she does seem to have fully recovered. Yes, I've tested her milk multiple times, and massaged ridiculous amount to take another sample just to make sure if there were any walled off that I got some loose, and there's been nothing, nada, Staph aureus gone. I know there are those on her who say "impossible" but vets and lab guy here make sensible explanation that for "normal" managment, its extremely difficult to get rid of, and is rarely caught early enough, but if caught early enough it is curable with more effort than makes sense for the average producer. Because I'd been testing so consistently, I knew I'd caught it early and was willing to take the extra steps, this time. And yes, if I feel like I get this doe caught up and given a level playing field, and she has problems after that, she will be culled. In the meantime, she's an asset here for now, and very clean milk tests. Sorry, that's OT for this thread but connected...

I'm also thinking lower doses more frequently makes sense, this bolusing when I start to see signs is not good. I'll agree with the "routine" folks on this one :biggrin and the schedule is now on my calendar.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

I bought a doe with two month old doe kids in '08. On Sweetlix minerals. Raised the kids with no problems. Bred doe to a Nigie buck. Wasn't on board with the copasure yet so those kids didn't get enough copper in utero. The dam never showed any copper deficiency signs. At 18 days old the buck kid started having seizures and then a doe kid started. A third doe kid never had them. She was dark colored, the others were tan. Don't know if that mattered. Tried fortified B's, which would keep the seizures at bay for a day, then they would return. The B-1 do doubt reduced the edema on the brain. After about a week of that I finally read about a relationship with copper deficiency and polio at Saanendoah, so after another seizure I drenched copper instead and that stopped the seizures completely. When they would get deficient they would oddly tweek their head then i would drench and it would stop. When a full seizure would occur they would walk or run normally then stumble, fall down and throw their head back and make a blood curdling scream. Then get up and act normal for awhile. No seizures at all with copper levels kept up.
Three weeks ago I visited the neighbor across the street and told her about my copper problem and she said one of their kids was very recently heard screaming after dark and her son went out there and it was dead with no sign of injury. It was about 2 weeks old. She doesn't give minerals at all. So I went home and got her some sweetlix and added some extra copper glycinate powder to tide her over till she got on board with minerals at least. Her goats are so deficient from copper, bleaching of fur. She has mutt nigerians.
So I don't know if Nigerians are more susceptible since my buck came with a bad fish tail and bleached out also. My lamancha kids didn't have problems with seizures. But I don't know if their dam was copper bolused while they were in utero. 
So since my unborn kids dam is up on Copasure now, I will see if I need to drench copper or not at 2-3 weeks old. Hopefully not. I will keep a close observation. 
I have clorine free well water for them. It doesn't have a high iron content.
Anyway I feel like I am going to be successful here on out with this copper issue since I know how to manage it now.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

There may be some other factors than the copper- if your adults were not showing any signs it is unlikely that the kids would be near death from deficiency by 2 weeks old. 
Lee


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

The copper supplement in the kids stopped the problem dead in it's tracks. The dam wasn't copper bolused during pregnancy. Am wondering if my buck passed on a genetic tendency to copper malabsorbtion. One kid out of the triplets didn't have any symptoms at all. I sold a kid from one of my '08 lamancha kids by my nigie buck, was gone a couple months or so, and didn't get enough copper, I got her back and she was grey, when she left she was brown. Now she is brown again. She was 50 miles away in a mountainous area. Anyway the copper is working now so I'll keep it up until I figure out if something else is at play. I would love to figure it all out.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No you buck didn't pass on the trait, your area of the country did  Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I can't help myself, I just think this doeling is so cute how she gets right in and eats with the big goats. Each year so far, there's been one doeling that just stands out with a kind of maturity and charisma, an attitude of "I know what I'm here for", that just isn't like the other (silly) kids, she's the one this year. I love the normal silly kids too!

She's the black and white one standing up on hind legs which puts her above the big goats backs. My goats are mostly dark colors, so a little hard to see them. She's such a long bodied doeling she actually looks bigger when she's on her hind legs, lol. The other one standing up, brown, is the smallest teenager. They are eating a big birch branch, I got a whole truckload of it this week and its one of their favs. Yes, I ration it out with all the other browse, this week they've gotten over 30 species already. My goal is at least 20. Its very interesting how their tastes change over the seasons in what they prefer. Getting OT...

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