# Buck not settling does...



## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

I have a buck who didn't breed any does as a kid. No big deal, he's not the first and certainly won't be the last. He turned a year old in April. I put a CIDR in a doe in May. Pulled the CIDR and had her with the buck. She didn't settle on that breeding and appeared to cycle again. She didn't settle with that breeding either. I had her preg checked via biotracking because she looked like she could be pregnant...even though she appeared to cycle in Aug (yes she was with the buck) and then it appeared she cycled again in Sept (not with the buck) and again in Oct and I saw her get bred. And it appears she's cycled again. This is Honey. Now I had two other does in with him in August. Both cycled and both were bred by him and both cycled again and were bred to another buck and so far, no signs of heat. Now I had two other does in with him in October. Acapella and Diva. Both were bred by him (visual breedings) and both of them cycled again......this is a total of 5 does being bred to him at various times and none have appeared to settled.

And yes, I have had him checked. A friend of mine were getting bucks collected so we took him along to have him checked. The guy that collected him said he has 50% live sperm....that while he would like to see higher percent, he SHOULD be settling does.....

Now...info on the does. Honey has kidded once so we know she's fertile. Acapella has kidded twice so we know she's fertile. The two does that were bred to him in August were kids but they haven't cycled since being bred to another buck. And Diva is a kid (jan baby). 

I am confused and frustrated. If this was one doe not getting bred over and over I would be looking at the doe as being the problem but this is 5 different does bred at various times to the same buck that hasnt settled. 

Since I have to send in a blood sample for a doe who was bred to an outside buck I might as well send in samples to confirm these 3 does are open before I put the older buck in with them. 

Any ideas as to what is going on? Im confused. 2 does have kidded before, 2 have appeared to settle to another buck & the buck didn't show up as sterile when he was checked. And my other does Delilah, who was bred to the older buck appears to have settled. Abby was bred to an outside buck and she has settled confirmed via biotracking. Flurri also went to an outside buck, no heats but she's one Ill be getting checked to make certain she's bred. All of my goats are healthy. UTD on everything. Good feed/hay/mineral. None are obese none are thin. None are having whacky cycles, everything seems normal except for them not settling. And I saw the buck breed them, they hunched up ect. 

The 2 does who went to outside bucks went to a clean herd that is very healthy, no disease or sick animals. Trust the herd owner 100% her animals and my animals are pretty much on the same care as everything I do is pretty much mimicing what she does with her herd. Most of my goats have came from her herd. And she doesn't take in outside goats for breeding except mine and another friends.....again we all are picky about our goats so everyone is healthy from herd to herd....


Any ideas?


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

How tall is je compaired to the does? Could he maybe not depositing sperm close enough to the cervix ?


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

He's bred young (being 80-90lbs) kids and big mature does. You'd think atleast the kids would have settled....
I'm lost as to what the deal is...going to phone the vet next and see what he thinks. When we had him checked it was a relief knowing he had live sperm....then he still isn't settling does. ugh. 

I thought the same thing Patina....size difference but he's taller then the kids he bred.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

While the sperm may be alive, maybe they are not strong enough to make the journey?


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

That's what I'm thinking...those 3 does will be visiting the older buck soon. I was wondering if that was a possibilty...


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Did the does come back and cycle right away (3 wks) or were there a few missed cycles where they appeared to be bred and then they cycled again? Just asking, because if that's the case the reason may not be the bucks sperm quality or vitality but something else.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

No missed cycles. I've kept track and checked tails, especially these 3 bc I knew he didn't settle any back in aug and sept.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

All of my does have had normal regular cycles starting in august...(Didn't check for july)


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Okay, well that is a good thing, because all the reasons for short term abortions are bad. Hmm, with all the does settling with other bucks the problem most likely lies in your buck then. fertility is a 'moment' thing, a buck can be tested fertile 6 months ago, but due to something happening to him over the last six months (from inbalanced rations to illness or injury) can be infertile today. Also, when they test semen, they test for 'live semen', but not necessarily for abnormal live semen, which can also be a reason for the buck not being able to settle does. Some abnormalities can be hard to see. 

Glad you have other bucks available to settle those does!

Marion


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Well my other buck is the sire of 2 of the does he'll be breeding but I have a guy who'd love to have some goat meat so I know where those kids are going....and crossing Zepher w/ Acapella makes a nice cross so no worries there either. BUT atleast I can get the other two freshened so thats good. 

So is there a way to get his semen checked for abnormalities?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Amy, there are a lot of excellent does out there who are the results of breeding sire to daughter, give them a chance before you sell them for meat.

I don't know what 50% of his semen at AI collecting even means? Is that good? Is that bad? Did he actually breed these does when they were in heat during the season, not May or June or July....but September or October? Although with our weather Nubian bucks stay in rut, or are willing to breed whenever this isn't true further north of us. Vicki


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Yes he bred the does, they were visual breedings and he actually got the does....not just mounting and fooling around. I don't feel comfortable selling sire/daughter crosses and I don't want to hold on to them long enough to see if the cross works. I don't mind them going for meat. Are there any other tests that can be done to check the quality of semen or not?

Thanks!


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

Hmm, weird.. I would have to lean toward poor motility or other then as well..like the AI gent said %50 is enough to "do the job" but is still a low count, so maybe there is something genetic, structurally or other going on. Could have even droped since time of collection. Maybe he had an injury or something, Got butted etc.
Idk.. but I would put some under a slide and get a closer look to know for sure so ya arent wasting time on a dud, or cull something correctable.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Yes, there are ways to check semen quality, but I don't know the cost or anything else about it. The person you should ask is Teresa Wade at Bio Genics. She knows everything about these things and will be able to tell you what kind of abnormalities would be hard to see and why they would prevent your buck from settling does if he is indeed 'to blame'. She collects and sells semen for AI for a living, and would be the expert to ask. Her website is www.biogenicsltd.com and you can probably find contact info there.

Marion


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

And from my Convention notes from the AI Clinic Teresa Wade did, you need a high-powered microscope to see the abnormalities. You can see lack of motility on say a 400x microscope and maybe a little deformity, but you cannot see each part of the sperm specifically with a 400x.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Thankyou for the replies.

Patina, if he got hurt, he'd have to do it himself....my does are all pretty easy going well, except Flurri but like I said, she went to another buck. They normally run from him if they aren't in standing heat yet...and I keep my bucks separated just before "breeding season" up until everyone was bred. Figures I just moved the boys together the other day then saw the girls had cycled again!

Not sure what sort of microscope he had, but I was able to see the slide....I actually got to compare his sperm to another buck....The other buck was a Saanen buck that was less then a year old but he's been breeding does.....BIG difference in those slides. The saanen's were moving alot faster then my buck's.....

Marion, Thanks for the link!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Cindy and I went to the same clinic at convention, that's why we are so smart... :rofl Also what I picked up is that when semen is collected for AI, basically everything you do during that process from collecting through breeding will diminish the quality of the semen, therefore , with AI, you have to start with superb quality semen and then deposit the semen in the cervix, instead of where the buck deposits it. Basically, a healthy buck, can do a 'worse job' than an AI technician, and still have better results, because his semen has more and stronger sperm. Now the way you describe your buck when compared to that Saanen, it kind of sounds that for him that is not the case, so he may very well just not have enough viable sperm. Realize, that actual breeding doesn't take place until plenty of sperm reach the egg (and this, I learned is important, even if only one actually fertilizes the egg, it actually takes many reaching the egg for that one sperm to be able to penetrate), and ovulation may not take place until many hours after you see signs of heat. One thing you could do is to let this buck breed as late as possible in the doe's heat, therefore being as close to ovulation as you can get.

I kind of wonder if any buck is worth all this trouble? I do not have superb bucks here (wish I did), so if I even suspected one of mine of not getting enough does settled, I'd let him go and use another. I usually keep a promising buckling of each breed every year, just in case he'll be better or his elder doesn't perform. Of course if you have a valuable buck on hand, it would probably be worth going to the trouble of figuring out what's going on.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Well, Teresa emailed me back....she said if I still have him when she's back in this area next year she can check him..

Im going to wait until I get the blood test results back before I make any decisions about him..

I bought him because of his pedigree. But I do have a back up buck with a very nice pedigree to actually two of them. My friend owns Kastdemur's AUK Big Kahuna & Pruittville's L&N Dream Weaver...I have 1 Kahuna daughter and 3 DW daughters...Love all 4 to!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm sorry Amy, next year is a long way off, so that'll keep you in the dark for a while. Stinks that it has to be a buck with a nice pedigree and not a 'oh I'll keep him just in case' kind of buck :down


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Has this buck been sick and had had high fever? Fevers can cause sterility in bucks, bulls, etc. I've looked at sperm under a microscope at buck collections. You can readily see which sperm are good and which ones are not. They need to be able to swim forward and not just curl up in a ball. I would think 50% sperm would settle a doe. Does his testicles seem to be normal in size or are they small or seemingly getting smaller. Do have him checked sooner rather than later - no point feeding a buck that's not a breeder.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

But he has been checked is what keeps popping into my head. It's all a breeding soundness exam can do really, it is not as if someone looking at the semen is better than someone else looking at the semen. ADGA has a policy if that a buck can't get a doe bred by 2 than you get compensated by the breeder, but he has been checked and does have live semen. Is 50% live semen a normal check? I have no idea. So not sure that would apply. We just did a breeding soundness exam and there was no percentages given of live semen, it was poor, average and excellent.

What kind of condition is he in, and like Janie, has he been ill since the semen processor looked at him? I know breeders who have had quite remarkable luck using Caprine Supplies Buck Power and bo-se. I am using this on a buck I just got back in pretty awful condition, I won't find out for awhile if he even settled the 3, I used him on, but I want to give him the best chance for next year.

We just take it for granted everyones management is the same as ours, until we do see someone elses bucks.....and we also don't want to offend. Is he well grown, what does he weigh, can you go snap a photo because many are simply barn blind when it comes to condition, the buck I got back, his feet were in such bad condition he couldn't even balance on those rear feet, just 2 trimmings by my super woman Kenny and he is fine now. I think it simply hurt to much for him to breed and it was why he would walk away from does in raging heat who were doing everything but mounting him.

I wouldn't count the May and other out of seasons breedings against him, and it's why this ADGA policy is written until 2, so bucks can't be blamed for being used so young and conversely out of season....but him not breeding now, and he has semen on the check, I would say this is nutritional. Vicki


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Probably every semen processor has their thoughts about semen quality. I've had some straws put up that the processor wouldn't even charge me for, because they felt like they were not quality. But even poor quality semen can get the job done, just may take more of it. The sperm has to have good motility, good active swimmers. This buck may have issues with the breeding process, he may be going through the motons, but not ejaculating. He needs a good soundness exam, not just a semen check.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Trysta...yea it'll be a wait....especially if his does don't kid next year. I decided against the blood testing. The one doe that I did test and have confirmed pregnant was in heat yesterday and was bred once again to Kahuna....and to think of it, Ive seen her flagging before but with that blood test I didn't think anything about it but since I've having does cycle I wasn't going to take a chance so I took her to my friends and Kahuna bred her in the night. SO I wont be spending the money on the tests, I'm just going to wait it out and see. :/

KJFarm- No, no fever, or illness. Never been injured to my knowledge. The guy that collected the bucks that day did mention his testicles were a bit smaller but he wasn't too concerned about their size. 

Vicki- He's in good condition, growing well, shiny coat. He's in better condition then my other buck....but the older one has been running the fence...both bucks are fed quality hay/grain...& mineral.


So I'm going to wait and see when the does kid...and go from there.
Thanks for all the replies!! Lets hope, pray and cross all the crossables that he settled those does! :/ Although if they cycle and stand for Zepher I'll have more then one due date for them. My friend had a few does cycle again and actually breed but still kid on the first due date so hopefully that's what is going on with these guys.....I can hope...lol :crazy


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

So Amy, do I take it from your most recent post that you're not going to send blood in?


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

No, I am not sending blood in. I'll just wait until the does kid and see which month they kid in. I can't really do anything about the buck situation until after I see when my friend's two does are due...She has 2 that were bred to my buck also.

So if he didn't settle any does....I'll have Flurri and Delilah due in March....the rest will be May kidders. ICK. ALL of those kids will be going. I refuse to keep an April/May kid any more.....I'll make 1 exception and that is for the Abby/Kahuna cross. 

What is weird is that in her herd, she's having the most trouble with the girls she put CIDRs in. I believe they all came back in heat and got bred again. Abby was also a CIDR doe. Flurri was to so now Im watching her like a hawk because she NEVER gives any obvious signs that she's in heat.....She's one that I could miss easily. lol


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

That is weird. All my CIDR does were fall kidders and all came back in natural heat this fall, shortly after kidding (nope, I didn't breed them, they'll have to wait!)


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Amy, what are your reasons for not keeping April/May kids? Just curious.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Carli, 
More then one reason actually.
I have more problems with worms/illness with late born kids then I do with the Jan/Feb or even early-mid March kids. Plus I really don't like holding over kids and having dry yearlings. Cost too much to feed. I like having kids that be bred in the fall that are 80-90lbs. And I don't want to wait until the end of the year for them to hit that weight and be bred (Dec). 
It may work out for other herds, having does kid later say in April, May, or even June....but I have June shows lined up. I want them freshened in time for those June shows...So I don't want to hold onto a late born kid and wait long enough for them to get big enough to breed and have then kid out late enough that it messes up the shows...plus keeping in mind, I'm the only who can milk....when I go to shows, all the milkers have to go, I can't leave any behind since I have no one to milk for me...
My Jan/Feb kids seem to be the strongest/growthy kids. So that is what I prefer. I'm making the exception with Abby/Kahuna because I really really really want to see what the cross produces and with Kahuna's kids, they are slow to mature anyways so that baby when she's a milker (praying for a doeling!LOL) won't be in the show ring until she's 2. Kahuna's daughters are immature as yearlings but boy do they come as 2 and 3 yrs old. Infact, I believe I have a yearling and a 2 yr old photo of Acapella....I'll see if I can find it.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Acapella as a yearling. She lost weight when I bought her. 









Acapella as a two year old.









When I took Acapella to the shows this year, she was a definite eye catcher. The judges commented on that...  First show was the AGS Nationals. She was AGS Nation Reserve Champion then the next show was an ADGA sanctioned show, she was Grand Champion and best of breed.  Now if I can handle her as a 3 year old I'm really hoping she shows well next year.....Her full sister is super nice to...if I am remembering correctly when Acapella got Grand that day, her full sister went reserve. I know when they were in their class Allegro was 2nd behind her sister. The next day Allegro took Grand Champion so these full sisters have both been Grand Champion as 2 yr olds.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Oh goodness, she's gorgeous!


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Trysta said:


> Oh goodness, she's gorgeous!


 Thankyou! I'm sure hoping for two more Kahuna daughters...Abby and Flurri are bred to him...I wanted this doe since she was 2 days old. Her breeder didn't want to let her go, I tried time and time again to get her. And when she freshened as a yearling her breeder decided to keep her sister as she was a bit more sane......Acapella is commonly called Spaz....for a reason!  But she's a pretty girl with nice kids...she had a kid this past season that was sired by Zepher, that made a lovely cross. of course I didn't think to get a pic of the kid before he went to his new home. *Sighs* The year before that, when I bought her and her two buck kids who were sired by Pruittville's L&N Dream Weaver I had seriously considered retaining one of those bucks but I didn't when my reserved buck was born.


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

She is very pretty! Your resons for not wanting late kids make perfect sense to me. Thanks for that!


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

It sounds to me like his sperm isn't "lively" enough. Perhaps it can't survive long enough to get to the egg? I have heard of bucks getting an infection in the testicles and causing them to be sterile, not sure exactly how it happens or how it was diagnosed but you could ask your vet about that. 

I know with my bull, the vet told us that a bull has to have at least 70% motility to pass a breeding soundness exam. They usually measure the circumference of the scrotum and put a sample under the microscope that is live, then he killed all of it and looked at it again counting the "good" ones and the deformed ones. 

I hope you get all of your girls settled, one way or another.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Welcome to the forum Beth! Vicki


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

Thank you Vicki, finally did the search for a goat forum to be on besides the Yahoo lists.

Is it possible for most of the does to be having false heats? 

Maybe your buck needs more time to mature? I hope your does turn out to be bred and you get some kids.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

PrairieTrail45 said:


> Is it possible for most of the does to be having false heats?


I was wondering this as well. But the fact that a few that were bred to the other buck didn't come back into heat makes it sound like this issue is limited to this buck.
I have a friend who purchased several does that were supposed to be bred (lived with a buck for a while). They ALL came into heat within a few days of him getting them home. His Nigerians that he took to a different farm to be bred all came back into heat a few days after bringing them home also. It seemed odd that none of his does would take. This post just made me think if his situation... He is in VA and the new goats were from OH. Who knows? Sometimes I think they just like to keep things interesting for us!


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Well Zepher has been in the barn for a week and I haven't seen any signs of heat for Flurri (xKahuna) Delilah(xZepher) & Sage (xZepher)....however, Acapella & Diva have cycled....however Zepher got sick out of the blue and is out for the rest of the season...sooo I have Acapella and Honey going to Dream Weaver and Diva is going back in with the buck...If she doesn't settle this time then I'll leave her dry for next year.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Faithful Crown Nubians said:


> If she doesn't settle this time then I'll leave her dry for next year.


Well doesn't that just stink! Glad the others settled.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Yea but I rather have a dry yearling vs a dry 3 yr old....and both Honey and Acapella will be 3 next year. This is the last month to breed does since the next couple months would put us in the middle of show season. And the whole reason WHY I got dairy goats to begin with is because I wanted to show...So I really want to make it to the shows next year! 

But using either of my friends bucks, I can't go wrong with either one of them and I've seen what DW x Honey and DW x Acapella produces, not bad lookin' kids.  Can't wait to get these girls bred so we can just wait on the kids...*sighs* I really hope we have an easy kidding season....this year, we had a bad kidding season 4 of 5 does had complications. Then the summer was horrible heat wise so only made it to two shows...then we know how breeding season is going. :/ I just hope these girls get bred this month.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Acapella is in heat and DW is in love.  lol


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

DW has bred both does, so cross your fingers! Lets hope they don't come back in heat again. Although I'm going to have him here incase they do.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Go DW!!!!!! :biggrin :biggrin :biggrin


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

LIKE


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

YAY!


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