# What to keep?



## guiness (Dec 11, 2008)

Hello everyone. First and foremost I am very new at this and don't want to sound dumb. How do you determine what kids to keep and what to sell? Can you tell conformation or what they will look like when older? What do you all look for? Thanks :help :help :help


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Very little ever changes structurally from day one in a kid. They are born with the bone ratios they will sport all their lives. They will add musculature and they will change pelvic structure from adding repeated kiddings and a weighty udder but you should be able to 'see' a goat the minute it has it's feet up under it nicely. I have friends who can do it without them setting foot on the ground sopping wet but I need about 2 weeks because I want to see movement.

Balance and blending are the key in infants. The bone balance ratios will not change. If they are short in the canon at birth they will always be. Is the elbow to leading edge of shoulder one half the leading edge of shoulder to withers? Is the rear thigh inwardly curved from profile view? Is there an angle from the hock to the foot that keeps proper alignment of feet under pin bones? When viewed from the rear do the points of the hocks face you directly with nice spacing when at rest? if not they never will. Do the feet all 4 face forward? - again this will not change. The head correctness issues will be by breed standard but you want a long torso with balance in all the bones and the spacing between ribs should show they will have eventual spring there to accommodate a great rumen capacity. That is just a few things you can look at in newborns. Lots of folks who have been thru appraisals will chime in with the things they have learned.
But for me- yes you can judge them very young. I like to see them moving but I honestly can tell pretty quickly what kind of goat that makes....can't always cull for many reasons the most common being my DH falling in love with the underdog  

Great topic - twill be lots of great input I know!

Lee


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2012)

Well said Lee, I also like to watch them on the move.. there are no perfect goats, they will all have a fault somewhere.. I personally dislike a steep rump and loose front end... weak pasterns.. One friend of mine really dislikes toplines that aren't perfect..While it plays a part in it all coming together... Some are all about the perfect mammary system..


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I have a couple doelings that tend to "hock in". When Tracy was here, she said that when they have their udders, that will straighten itself out. Randy Hoach was telling her not to cull for that trait. I have no idea if it's really true or not.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I don't believe that. I've been culling for cow hocks, cause they are bad coming from a particular doe I used to have. They aren't always genetic, but in her they are as evidenced by her daughters and granddaughters. Even if proper trimming minimizes that, they easily revert back to it. I haven't seen it to be improved by udders. The udder just gets pushed too far forward or too far back. Bred to really strong legs, I can get rid of it, but line breeding with goats that have her in the pedigree will bring it right back. I've seen that trait in alot of NDs. I do think it is a trait to give them a few weeks on though. But once they are strong and muscled, you know.

I have no idea how to sell doelings. I never want to. I want to raise them and see their udders, then sell the ones I'm less impressed with. Different way to do it I guess. It has it's merits.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

My goat mentor also says that doelings that hock in will straighten out with a full udder. She finishes alot of goats in the show ring, so I trust what she selects for. I'll also get her feedback when deciding which of a set of twin doelings to retain. Last year, I had two sisters that I took to the show. One doeling went grand twice, so of course I kept her. My friend liked the other sister better, so I kept her as well. I'm glad I did because I lost the kid who did well at the show and her sister is growing out well. I repeated the breeding and am retaining the doeling as she is every bit as lovely.
When selecting who to keep and who to cull, I look at the topline, escutcheon and overall balance of the kids. I also show alot of my kids and get more input at the shows. I have learned, however, that how well a kid does at a show does not always reflect how well she will compete when fresh and matured. Our biggest competition at local shows is Saada. I've had doelings who have beaten their kids, but then when they are fresh, get beaten by their does. I also had a La Mancha doe who didn't place very high in the lineup as a kid and then went on to become a permanent champion when that udder came in.


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## guiness (Dec 11, 2008)

Thank you all for the great input, although its overwhelming to me at this point. I would like to have your trained eye to be able to see the good (if there is any) and the bad. All babies look cute to me. Although I am not in it for show, I would like my herd to look as good as possible. Thanks again


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Here is what is looked at on an ADGA scorecard. It is aimed at mature animals but you can see some things to look for even in young stock. 


A. GENERAL APPEARANCE
An attractive framework with femininity (masculinity in bucks), strength, upstandingness, length, and smoothness of blending throughout that create an impressive style and graceful walk. 
Stature - slightly taller at withers than at hips with long bone pattern throughout. 
Head & Breed Characteristics - clean-cut and balanced in length, width, and depth; broad muzzle with full nostrils; well-sculpted, alert eyes; strong jaw with angular lean junction to throat; appropriate size, color, ears, and nose to meet breed standard. 
Front End Assembly - prominent withers arched to point of shoulder with shoulder blade, point of shoulder, and point of elbow set tightly and smoothly against the chest wall both while at rest and in motion; deep and wide into chest floor with moderate strength of brisket. 
Back - strong and straight with well-defined vertebrae throughout and slightly uphill to withers; level chine with full crops into a straight, wide loin; wide hips smoothly set and level with back; strong rump which is uniformly wide and nearly level from hips to pinbones and thurl to thurl; thurls set two-thirds of the distance from hips to pinbones; well defined and wide pinbones set slightly lower than the hips; tailhead slightly above and smoothly set between pinbones; tail symmetrical to body and free from coarseness; vulva normal in size and shape in females (normal sheath and testes in males). 
Legs, Pasterns & Feet - bone flat and strong throughout leading to smooth, free motion; front legs with clean knees, straight, wide apart and squarely placed; rear legs wide apart and straight from the rear and well angulated in side profile through the stifle to cleanly molded hocks, nearly perpendicular from hock to B, yet flexible pastern of medium length; strong feet with tight toes, pointed directly forward; deep heels with sole nearly uniform in depth from toe to heel. 
B. DAIRY CHARACTER
Angularity and general openness with strong yet refined and clean bone structure, showing freedom from coarseness and with evidence of milking ability giving due regard to stage of lactation (of breeding season in bucks).
Neck - long, lean, and blending smoothly into the shoulders; clean-cut throat and brisket.
Withers - prominent and wedge-shaped with the dorsal process arising slightly above the shoulder blades.
Ribs - flat, flinty, wide apart, and long; lower rear ribs should angle to flank.
Flank - deep, yet arched and free of excess tissue.
Thighs - in side profile, moderately incurving from pinbone to stifle; from the rear, clean and wide apart, highly arched and out-curving into the escutcheon to provide ample room for the udder and its attachment.
Skin - thin, loose, and pliable with soft, lustrous hair. 
C. BODY CAPACITY
Relatively large in proportion in size, age, and period of lactation of animal (of breeding season for bucks), providing ample capacity, strength, and vigor. 
Chest - deep and wide, yet clean-cut, with well sprung foreribs, full in crops and at point of elbow. 
Barrel - strongly supported, long, deep, and wide; depth and spring of rib tending to increase into a deep yet refined flank 
D. MAMMARY SYSTEM
Strongly attached, elastic, well-balanced with adequate capacity, quality, ease of milking, and indicating heavy milk production over a long period of usefulness. 
Udder Support - strong medial suspensory ligament that clearly defines the udder halves, contributes to desirable shape and capacity, and holds the entire udder snugly to the body and well above the hocks. Fore, rear, and lateral attachments must be strong and smooth. 
Fore Udder - wide and full to the side and extending moderately forward without excess non-lactating tissue and indicating capacity, desirable shape, and productivity. 
Rear Udder - capacious, high, wide, and arched into the escutcheon; uniformity wide and deep to the floor; moderately curved in side profile without protruding beyond the vulva. 
Balanced, Symmetry & Quality - in side profile, one-third of the capacity visible in front of the leg, one-third under the leg, and one-third behind the leg; well-rounded with soft, pliable, and elastic texture that is well collapsed after milking, free of scar tissue, with halves evenly balanced. 
Teats - uniform size and of medium length and diameter in proportion to capacity of udder, cylindrical in shape, pointed nearly straight down or slightly forward, and situated two-thirds of the distance from the medial suspensory ligament on the floor of each udder-half to the side, indicating ease of milking.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The hock references, it's an Alpine trait, that and feet...so of course if you cull heavily for it like you would in a Nubian kids, you would be ridding yourself of does who are very competitive with most does in the ring with hockiness. And yes, a good udder between those thighs and she is no longer hocky, until you milk tham out and see them in BIS 

A really good little piece of info is width follows width. Width between the eyes, fullness of the muzzel, between the front legs...carries to enough width in that rump and between the pinbones to carry an udder with lots of area of attachment. So if nothing else, keep your widest kids.

It also goes back to how sorry I feel for some of you only having the internet for help. Having local mentors that can help you sift through kids, young milkers etc...it's invaluable. I have paid local judges to help me cull. Vicki


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## guiness (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks again, I feel honored with the great response and advise. As I mentioned before, I hope one day I am good as you folks.


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

swgoats said:


> I have no idea how to sell doelings. I never want to. I want to raise them and see their udders, then sell the ones I'm less impressed with. Different way to do it I guess. It has it's merits.


This is what I do. If it is a doeling and born here, then she stays until she freshens. I may trade doelings with another breeder but I don't know what I am doing in my breeding unless I see the end result.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I've tried to get help from goat breeders. For example, when my milk tester was here, I asked what she thought about the udders on my ff's. She said, "Nice!" Well, thanks, but that isn't really that helpful, lol. I am trying to help a gal pick a mini buckling out from one of them.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

That's all most people really want to hear, Nice. I would explain to her you are asking and want the truth. Vicki


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> A really good little piece of info is width follows width. Width between the eyes, fullness of the muzzel, between the front legs...carries to enough width in that rump and between the pinbones to carry an udder with lots of area of attachment. So if nothing else, keep your widest kids.


Love this. And it is sooo true and even newbies can see it.  It's one of the very first things I notice--when I pop a bottle in that kids mouth I can see *width* by watching it's nostrils flare.  As they *unfold* the first couple of days, then I see the width in the chest and rump.

Feet and legs. Biggies for me. My first year doing Linear Appraisal, the appraiser commented that my does had nice feet/legs. Said that was a good thing, that udders are generally easily improved in a generation or two, but it can take forever to improve feet/legs.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Isn't that funny, how most people never want to hear the truth, even though they ask for it? I get in trouble a lot because i will just say what I am actually thinking and not what someone wanted to hear....

I am so interested to see one of my yearlings freshen. The first day after bringing the 4 alpine doelings home last year, I called her the beef head or bone head or something like that, lol. I ended up naming her Moose. She is very wide, and the first thing that indicated that to me, was her big ol fat head. Oh, that's what it was fat head...I joked I was going to make that her registered name.  Of course, she is the one of the 4 that absorbed her pregnancy.  I put her with a buck for a month for August kids, and if that didn't take, I will try to do the CIDR protocol for Fall kids.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Sorry to take this off topic but Nancy...Most animals will begin to cycle naturally as the days shorten. Our first natural heats are in July for November kids. Keep her near the buck and watch him for attentiveness and you will not need CIDR. I think you may want to flush or increase caloric intake if you are not grazing where seed heads form on your grasses. This is part of what stimulates early season settling...increased available calories as part of the natural cycle of their forage. A few weeks on flowering grasses and shortening days and poof...fall milk 

And just so I am not totally off topic for the entire post (sorry Eddie)...it has been my experience (no showing here- just working girls) that bringing an udder in to faulty pelvic and leg structure does nothing to actually correct it.What you may be noting is increased size and capacity on the doe after the hormonally initiated growth spurt of pregnancy. It may alter the stance when filled but if the doe is hocking inward she is going to shift that udder around with those thighs when she walks. I don't see it as a fault in one breed or another but cropping up in all of them. Seriously accomplished and awarded Obers have this problem. 

There is a historical reason this trait exists and moreso in the Swiss breeds and that is it reflects the necessary leg conformation for springing up hillsides. Spraddled out to the sides as a straight drop like we look for there is less ability to spring. Bringing the hocks in under the center of gravity- where the most weight is gets them boosted up those inclines with more efficiency and power. Of course the ancestor goats did not drag 2 gallon udders up those mts while foraging either but mankind has decided they should stand as flatlanders to accommodate the udders we have created for them 
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No we aren't talking about an udder fixing hockiness structurally. Put a beach ball between your knees, yep, your hockiness is gone to! It's simply cosmetic, why if I was getting into Alpines I would want to see my new bloodline on the move milked out, walking away from you it can be quite shocking!


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## guiness (Dec 11, 2008)

Ideally I would like too see them as they mature and freshen for the first time to see what they turn out like. If feed wasn't so darn expensive here I wouldn't mind keeping most does till their first freshening. Does the mother, or the father have more to do with kids conformation? Sorry, I am just trying to absorb all the info you all are giving me. Way too much for me to handle at this point. Thank you all.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I have minis which means I fed two to three to your one standard  but I also have hybrids which means there is less predictability. Ideally I'd like to get to the point I have a herd of does I'm relatively content with and predictable kid crops. Then I will sell doelings. 

You have to look at both sire and dam, and ideally any animals in the pedigree that might be significantly repeated. But that is a simple view. Some traits are influenced more by genetics. I'll let those with more knowledgeexpound on that.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I'm watching my 7 new doelings trying to figure who to keep. So far, all of them are pretty equal, dad is very prepotent and has passed so much of himself onto those kids, they are a big improvement on the does.

So, here I sit wondering what to do! For now, I am going to keep all 7 and make my decision as they age and or freshen. Like I need more mouths to feed. I do wangt to put together a show string for 2013, so that is going to be a consideration, but my main thing is milk for the house. One of my adult son's is coming home to live for a while. This is the son who was raised from birth on raw goat milk, so he will be drinking gallons of it.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Lee-You have Nubians. I don't know if the alpines will be as likely to cycle in July here (and wouldn't it be June, if they are kidding in November??). I suppose I could try it, just to see...


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Nancy- I currently have Nubians but have in the past had all breeds but Obers and all crosses imaginable as well. Our first purebred herd was stock from Lone Elm Aplines in NY. They are all seasonal breeders and respond to light cycles. This may not be discernible to you but I assure you a buck will know and will know before he goes thru the displacement behavior of perfuming and acting the fool that humans call rut. In the past when we were dairying I split the herd in two for year round milk. We bred in summer for Nov and Dec kids and we bred in Oct and Nov for spring kids. There was never any issue with not settling in summer to kid in fall. It is only human intervention that prevents seasonal breeding. 

We too used to freshen all does born here just to track changes to udder structure and production levels. It only works for us because we have lots of room for them to graze and browse. I would not advise it if you are bringing in every mouthful they eat but I know what you are up against Sully! I freshened 8 FF this year with the intention of decreasing numbers and keeping one or two replacements but I have got to quit looking at all the lovely foreudders and start picking and choosing for feet-topline-teat placement-loud mouth :rofl etc.....

I wish you all well with these decisions and altho it is a good learning tool if you can carry them to FF and track the changes~just keep in mind you will never get your money back or as V says...you will make about as much money as everyone else 
:biggrin Meaning None! The only way to have your kid crop help with your bottom line is to get them out of there with a few resources in them as possible for the most money you can get. Not the most fun but the best $ wise.
Lee


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

I freshened 5 FF 's this year and kept 4. Hmmm. Wasn't planning on keeping that many because I had no idea I was finally getting consistency in my breeding. All very nice udders even the one I culled. Her body left a lot to be desired. though. I do have a cap on numbers and since I am keeping 4 FF's, I eliminated 4 so so older does and trimmed down on the buck population. This is kind of the norm. Not sure how many years before all my herd will be keepers and I won't hve anything to cull from the older ones. 
I have the room and this is my hobby so I don't worry about the bottom line. everyone needs a vice and I don't drink or gamble. Unless it is on selecting sho to bredd to whom.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I've been avoiding reading this thread cuz I was hoping it had The Answer! And hope is such a great feeling. 

I'm in agony over this question... TOO many goats, barn blind and unable currently to translate all the words into practical, how they apply to this or that doe or kid. I can say all the words y'all say... good structure etc but when I'm looking at mine, I see pros and cons and can't decide.

I held over 3 yearlings to be FF this year with high hopes, and 2 of them have now freshened with single kids and not anywhere near the milk quantity their genetics would suggest. Much less milk than their dams or sire's other daughters. 

I'm as close to depressed as I get! Really really bummed and discouraged. Blaming myself of course, I had a really awful fall season with some other stuff in my life, getting goats bred was something to just get checked off and I was having to juggle them around different properties, and I was not micromanaging at all... 

The sire of these FF is the best around, has other spectacular daughters, so I was expecting improvements over the dams, not this big disappointment. I can hear some folks saying that its the genetic mix of different lines, not any particular sire giving certain traits... maybe... but then all the focus on "best buck available" loses some meaning? That's starting to ramble on theoretical... I need some PRACTICAL... what goes into blaming yourself for a FF poor production with a single kid and giving her another chance vs culling? 

If I write them off, that's a huge loss, but throwing scare resources (space!) at losers is worse. I'm in agony trying to decide if they are losers, if so I don't even want to sell them under my herd name... but I know its a least partly my fault they weren't really getting "breeding ready" care when they were bred in the fall, so I'm really torn... Part of me just wants to dry them off asap, get them the pre-breeding care they deserved and try it once more asap.

So for you long timers... ever had a really bad fall breeding season? FF's with single kids, what went into decision to cull them or give them one more chance? How much difference in milk do you think having a single kid makes? FWIW, *both* of their dams had triplets as FF... so these singles are big expectation crash for me.


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

My lowest producer as a FF had twins this year so I don't buy into the single kid thing. BUT years ago I had a FF that was very small with a tiny udder (although very nice) with kind of pitiful milk production. I kept her and when I freshened her the second time she REALLY upped the production and even grew some and went on the next year to become a permanent champion. I have one this year that looks a lot like that. Tiny udder but very nice and not much milk. But I keep milking her and will give her another year. 
And I am strange I guess, but I love singletons but only if they are doelings.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thankfully, both single kids were doelings. 
Or maybe not if their moms are losers, LOL...
My vision is so colored by my disappointment that I'm sure I'm not seeing their structure accurately. I'd post pics but I've learned it takes HOURS to get halfway decent ones and then they still look so different than in real life. 

I hear these stories how FF with small udders for xyz reasons became great... and I'm in such internal conflict how to decide! 

In my case I have more goats that I have time or space for... I have to sell someone, had great hopes for these yearlings from the buck I used... so I'm looking for a LOT of input on cutting my losses or giving what I've put so much time and energy into, another chance.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Technically, a well-put together goat should be a thing of beauty AND a great milker, but we have all seen those big producers that would never make it in the show-ring and the beauty who just doesn't cut it in the production department. 
So for my farm, it is about making goals and then making decisions based on those goals. Is it worth it to you to use your resources on "maybe's"? For me, there have been times when it was worth it and times when it wasn't. Maybe you sell one and later you find out she was really a keeper. In a year or so that doe may have a daughter that you can bring back in to your breeding program.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2012)

Well said Michelle, I have a doe that could not place anything but last in the show ring, but she outmilks all others in my herd and all around milking ease beats all others also... I just love her, my goal is goats that milk, she is going on eight yrs old now and still has strong legs and feet.. lousy topline and no dairy character so to speak.. I would not trade her for the world, strangely enough she throws wonderful daughters that milk and show well... Go figure, 
Barb


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

That is another amazing thing: those does that may not be show winners but produce great daughters. And having an older doe producing so well says good things for your management.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm in similar situation Barbara, with one of mine, she's not 8yo yet, but like yours she's not winning anything in the show ring, but she's my biggest milker, doesn't seem to pass on her worst faults, helps raise any kid in need, is DH's fav for good reasons - she's just a personable clown to live with, overall an asset to us.

She's a keeper here... its the others... :crazy


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

So funny that everyone has the ugly duckling that milks like crazy, has a pendulous udder, and 20 foot teats! It is a really intersting thread - and have smiled through most of it  And this same one has produced some really great offspring bred to an amazing buck


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

doublebowgoats said:


> That is another amazing thing: those does that may not be show winners but produce great daughters. And having an older doe producing so well says good things for your management.


This happens quite often in the dog world.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Keeping doe kids will help you out a lot...and then when you are milking 5, 6 or 7 does, it becomes more obvious who stays and who goes! I want easy to milk goats, period. I have a beautiful black doe that I was so excited about. She is elegant and stylish and very pretty....but, oh my, that udder! She's a big milker with tiny teats and poor attachments. She's got all the room in the world in the rear but takes me 15 minutes to milk her! And it's 15 minutes of work, NOT pleasure! Her orifices are large so that does help a little, but she's been plagued with thin, very, very dry udder skin and gets staph bumps whenever the wind blows....

And then I had a little runt goat I decided to keep as a pet. At two years old she just freshened with the prettiest udder on the farm, AND is easy to milk...but she's short, very short, and her legs and feet are not the best...

Keeping some doelings and seeing them freshen will help you decide what is important to you. I also like quiet goats and have culled noisy animals in the past....maybe if that dumb guinea would ever die, I could handle some noisy goats...just not right now.  

I also like black goats, so I'm keeping the two born this year and will sell a couple of the others I was on the fence about. So, color matters too. And I don't like wattles. One of the keeper doe kids this year has wattles, and she's georgous...guess I'll just have to get used to them!


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

It ges very expensive but I like to keep most of my doe kids until they freshen. That way I can see udders and it seems there are always people wanting does in milk.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

With the FF, especially yearlings, I feel like this...and this isn't really experience talking, just how I think I would do it. If she is milking decent, but not great, look at her attachments, and the rest of the goat, and if she is wonderful in those areas, she gets to have a chance for another year. I have plenty of space here though, and haven't built my herd up to the point that I want it to be....hard to do because I do keep selling the lesser goats each year, lol.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Wow, Anita, sounds like you totally get my quandry and have had some similar experiences!

Of the original little herd I bought, the one I was most excited about getting turned out to just not to fit into things as my plans evolved... And if I'm honest, I don't enjoy much beyond looking at my best looking doe, she's just not as multifunctional here as her runnerups. She's just so beautiful to look at but I just don't enjoy dealing with her like the others. I'd get as much pleasure from a photo of "used to have her" LOL. 

Ziggy, I pushed my luck to keep all these last year... that's part of why they were getting juggled around, zoning rules mean I can't keep them all here. Having them different places was crazy hard and the single kids are a result of pushing my life literally in too many directions I think. But I don't know... still stuck on who, why and when to give FF's a second chance.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I know Lacia. I got two right now that will probably go. There are some good qualities there, but the production is not where I want it so far. I'm trying to withhold judgement to 45 days. I have had does that didn't blossom until the second or third freshening, and I think these two probably will, but I am over it. I don't have the time. I want a quart per milking minimum first freshening. That makes it worth my while.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Lacia - if you are overloaded I would settle on a number that you can handle and then cull down to that. That is what we are doing here this year except in my case it is not Zoning but time and money that are the deciding factors. I know I don't want to be milking more than 18 so at least 7 have to go. What I am doing is letting some of my middle aged ones go (the two oldest will stay here forever) as in most cases I have kids here that are improvements over their dams. Then I can focus on improving them even more.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

My four main milkers will never be sold, so that helps out a little Anyone that gets sold is a younger animal. Those older does are just soooo much easier to milk and mine all make well over a gallon. This isn't the best way to improve herd genetics, but I can milk all 4 of those in less than 30 minutes and at their peak will get about 6 gallons per day. The babies don't cost as much to feed since they are not lactating, but I usually only keep 2 per year...just whoever my favorites happen to be. And I can sell does in milk all day long.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

You can clip wattles Anita.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Angie, they are giving me a quart per milking as FF, that's just less than I'm used to, so maybe I'm being unreasonable...

Ziggy, exactly. The devil's in the details of deciding, and that FF doesn't "seem" to be an improvement over dams, despite using sire I had high hopes for. But how much do I go by FF, especially if they only had a single kid? That's a big part of my dilemma, knowing how much of an impact having a single kid really is.

One has small teats, that's a huge disappointment, not related to having a single kid, so at least that one is clear.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

If you are not happy with the FF and are constrained by numbers I would sell her as a home Milker and try a different site on the dam...


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

I meant sire (not site) - spellcheck changed it on me.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

LOL, yep on spelling... I think you can click on "modify" on your own posts and fix it rather than a correction post. If that's easier.

I've used different sire this year, my own polled ones. I sure won't be holding over yearlings this year, I want them bred and to know what I've got asap now, LOL.

When you are deciding about keeping doeling kids, can you tell anything about baby teats that you think predicts anything about udder teats? I see differences, just wondering how they turn out.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

I am told by more experienced breeders that there are things you can tell by teat position and size but never with 100 percent certainty until they freshen.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Yeah, I've heard those rumors too... hopefully one of them will chime in with specifics!


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## guiness (Dec 11, 2008)

Good to see how many people have input on this interesting subject. Everyone's input has certainly helped me clarify some points that weren't clear to me, due to lack of experience. I have a slight dilemma, we purchased a pregnant FF a couple weeks back. She comes from heavy milking lines and from a very distinguished breeder here in So. Cal. We were told she should be kidding on April 15-17th, but babies came early on April 6th. Two pretty does but kind of small in my opinion. She has a tiny udder and very small teets. Babies seem to be eating well but I am wondering if they are getting enough. 
What are the chances udder will fill up properly? Did her early delivery have anything to do with her poor udder? Can I do anything to stimulate her milk production? Sorry for so many rookie questions. 

Thanks


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Do you milk her or do you just let the kids nurse? Others will be more experienced than this, but I think if you milk her out often, her production should increase. Supply and demand.


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## guiness (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks Cindy, babies are on her and nursing. I would try and milk her but there is hardly any milk there and I would hate to take that from the kids.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Once the kids are 2 weeks old they do not need to eat so frequently altho by the hysterics they perform you would think otherwise. Pull the kids overnight and milk in the morning exactly 12 hours after you separated them and you will know pretty much how much she is producing. I cannot imagine not knowing that dam raising or not. 

If you have not demanded more milk than 2 tiny newborn babies can take then like Cindy said - she will adjust her production to that low level and only raise slightly as they demand more. 
How old are the kids? You will have to milk her to stimulate production.
Lee


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

If I'm reading correctly, the kids are 3 days old, born on Apr 6.

I start separating earlier if they are big strong kids, and for shorter hours at first. I have the kids taught to take a bottle from day one, getting a known amount of colostrum into them, so I can separate with little/no stress to them. 

If they are big and strong, I'll start as early as day 3-4 but just for 8 hrs, increasing 1/2 hr daily to 12 hrs. Its a way of filling and developing the udder's capacity gradually so they don't get strutted or blown out. If they start leaking before that, then I'll ease them just a bit.

Then its important to milk them out thoroughly at night, to make sure they have some leftover, then you know the kids are getting enough during the day, and to make sure she's really empty so you are both getting a true 12 hrs amount and it will alert you if its not filling perfectly evenly, as well as get it to develop evenly. Normally the 2 sides are not equally empty at night milking.

The day the kids are disbudded, I leave them on the mom that night. 

I give the kids a bottle at 12 hrs minus 1/2 hour per day less than 12... so a 3-4 day old kid is 12-4= 8 days less than 12, times 1/2 hr is 4 hrs, so gets first bottle at 8 hrs. I'm not really that precise... but to have a formula to ballpark is good and I just want to convey the theory in a quantifiable and understandable way. I've not seen anyone else put it into explicit terms and I see newbies struggle with vague. So its my attempt to help.

That morning bottle is their weight in pounds, in oz.... so 7 lb kid get 7 oz in morning bottle. I let them have half, then take a little break, then the other half. I know a lot of folks give whole amount all at once, but I get sick if I dump a big meal on an empty stomach, and its sure not the natural way they are designed to snack smaller amounts. I almost never have a soft poop here. I know others successfully do it all at once, but I want to love on them anyway and a break works for us.

The other advantage of my method is that by the time I get milking done and they are back on their mom, they are still hungry enough to stimulate here but not so hungry that they are harrassing her or tearing her up. Its one of my best "system" things that I've come up with that really works well for us.

Another benefit of the morning bottle, for micromanagers  is that you get to see how the kid really is. If they eat differently, you get a heads up that something might be brewing. I'll stick them where I can see what they poop next if one just isn't as enthusiatic as usual about their bottle. Of course if you have 100 kids this won't work, but you can do something similar with lambar type feeder to make it more efficient. 

When I separate, its via something where they can still see the kids, just not nurse, so a dog crate in the mom's pen, or small grid stock panel like the 4x4" grid size one. I want to maximize udder development while minimizing stress.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

This thread is really taking off in a new direction.  Maybe you can advise me on two mini does I'm dealing with. I'm feeling a little defeated. FF freshened a week ago. Been milking every 12 hours while she nurses twins. Guessing the kids are about 5 lbs each now. Don't have a really good way to weigh such tiny babies right now. I've been getting ounces of milk. Last night I decided not to milk. This morning I got a full pound. I'm guessing she's making about 3 lbs. Not shameful, but not exciting either. She does have a pretty little udder. I'm thinking with her, I will separate kids at three weeks for 12 hours, and then sell her in milk at three months. 
Her twin sister freshened with triplets Friday. They are tiny, probably 3 lbs, one might be 4 lbs. Her udder is larger but not as pretty. It looks like she has put fat in her udder and her skin isn't as soft as her sisters.. Her teats seem to be inverted almost and feel like there is fat around them - I posted a picture a couple weeks ago. They seem to be improving as the kids nurse and I massage them. But I'm not getting anything from her. The kids are taking it all or she's not letting me have it. They don't look stuffed but satisfied. I'm questioning what is the best thing to do for her, and for the kids. What will develop her udder best? Should I go ahead and separate the kids part of the time and bottle them during the separation? I want to learn this more intensive management technique for dam raising, but honestly, I'm really struggling. I'm exhausted. It is taking me a long time to get through the routine of feeding and milking and putting away and handling kids. Maybe I'm a slow poke. . But my goal here is to maximize potential, keep the best, sell the rest.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Have you actually milked and have barn records of what her dam actually milked at that age? One of my best milking lines, the matriarch milked 4 pounds on her first test at 11 months old just fresh. It was likely why she was sold, and then sold again to me (she was small for the line also). Now none of her daughters and grand daughters have milked that poorly at 12 to 14 months old and just fresh. I didn't get her until her second lactation but knew her very well that first lactation, had I freshened her daughters only milking 5.5 pounds, I would have been questioning her also. But as a 2 year old 2nd freshener she milked well, long level lactations which to me is more important than that gallon of milk flash in the pan at peak. She got her first official leg at 3 I should have showed her a lot more and finished her, she also would never have been called small.

An right now I am fighting milk fever as a doe is going to peak, in a 2 year old 1st freshener who is simply milking more than she can consume in calories....so for me fill your udder twice a day, milk that way for 10 months and you stay. CMPKing a doe daily so she doesn't crash is the early evening isn't my idea of fun.

Can they milk well, have 2 or 3 or 4 kids on your management? Have long level lactations for as long as they are needed at your farm, is that 3 months while you feed kids, 6 months until fall shows are over, 10 months so they can sell milk? Than keep them, if not sell them. I want to milk what I love looking at.

It also is unlikely that your herds are linebred down enough that you can sacrifice all of a bucks daughters for two daughters who are not what you want as very young milkers in the beginning of their lactation...even in my herd a buck threw pretty average daughters on one line while he also fathered two of the best does I have ever bred (on a very different line)...did I sell all his daughters because of the few average ones, no. Is the heritable trait you are after in the buck attainable?

Are you getting yet that nobody can answer your questions? All we can answer is what works here? 

Have someone pick excellent conformation in your kids with you, this way you are freshening only does who if they do put on those 35 points out of 100 in udder conformation, you have something to work with. Freshening poor conformation in hopes of a good udder is not getting you anywhere. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Wow, Vicki, that was an excellent post! Great questions, too, Angie.

What a great thread!!!


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

To drag this back to the original question.....every single one of you already knows what you like. Start there. You have to look a them and feed them, so you better like looking at them. 

This is what linear appraisal was made for! Use it! 

The other thing I would add is that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! You don't toss out a 90+ doe because she is hocky after she is milked out, LOLOL. Personally yes, I like wide and straight hind legs - BUT that alone would not make me cull a doe. 

Here is a quote by Randy in one of his interviews that I have started thinking about long and hard myself -
"I can do a whole lot more in a breeding program with a doe that may have a fault or general weakness in an area, but is outstanding and extreme in all other areas, than I can with a doe that may not have any glaring faults, but there is nothing particularly outstanding about her. "
You can pick apart every national champion there is -- there is NO perfect animal. But no doubt, some of them just have that extra "something" that makes you look at them.

I don't consider a FF having a single kid as culling criteria. The udder attachment/height/teat placement is not going to get better .....the capacity will, but you better not be picking your udders based on nothing but capacity -- unless you are all about production and not concerned about structure or longevity.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Tracy in Idaho said:


> Here is a quote by Randy in one of his interviews that I have started thinking about long and hard myself -
> "I can do a whole lot more in a breeding program with a doe that may have a fault or general weakness in an area, but is outstanding and extreme in all other areas, than I can with a doe that may not have any glaring faults, but there is nothing particularly outstanding about her. "


Thanks for bringing this valuable perspective to the table Tracy! This has been a good thread. For me the really important piece of all this was really nailing down what my goals are in the long term. I'm 3+ years going in and although I never went at it without some type of goal in mind (most of it based on lots of research and what I thought would be fun or interesting or yada yada), it took practical experience to pinpoint exactly what *I* wanted out of goats. It's the part of it that makes answering this question for others a little difficult, as Vicki has pointed out. I'm quite sure I haven't had my last goat-related existential crisis, but boy did it feel good to finally find that goldilocks path in my journey that feels juuuust right for me.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Lacia, have you butterfat tested your girls yet? I just noticed the milk from the girls I was crying about in the fridge. On one jar there is a head on it that is half the amount in the jar! I know there are some who use NDs for cheese making cause even though overall yields are less the cheese yields are greater. I had the thought maybe your buck did improve the girls just not in the way you expected.


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## guiness (Dec 11, 2008)

Never thought this thread would get this much response, Im excited to see this though. Our nubians are almost done kidding and we have sold all our bucks and kept 4 does. It was hard parting with some does, but we had to do it. Hoping and crossing our fingers that we made the right choice and kept some good ones.

Update on the FF: Still not much milk there and can't seem to stimulate more production. The two little ones seem very lively and happy, that's a big plus. Thanks for all your advise.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

I agree on the Linear Appraisal. I question myself so much as a newbie. I love LA. I can only keep 2 doelings this year, unless I want to sell milkers. I'm going to base it on the LA scores and how they do at shows... both in the ring, and how they handle the traveling. 

I've also set rules. I'm very emotional about goats. I want to buy every goat I see, but I can't afford it and don't have the space so I've given myself limits. They have to be in a certain line, they or their dam have to have a certain LA score. I won't buy from farms that don't do LA. I'm going to do the same with my own doelings.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

One other piece of advice I was given a long time ago --

NEVER make your culling decisions right after your appraisal or right after a show ;-) Take a few weeks and think about it. I think my 4th or 5th appraisal -- it was SO bad that I remarked to my husband after they left that I was darn glad that I had been at it a while or I would have hauled the whole herd to the sale barn! Some shows are the same way -- remember they only see an animal at *that* particular moment in time.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

I would agree with Tracy on the shows part as that is relative to other goats on that specific day but I wonder about your postions on LA...unless your goat is sick that day shouldn't this be an unbiased and straightforward expert evaluation of the goats strength and weaknesess and this one of the best factors on which to base your decisions?


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, we all know what should be and actually is, isn't necessarily what really happens, Ziggy.

How do you explain grown does "losing" height or rear udder arches dropping 10 or more points? ;-) It happens....often. I was looking at some pedigrees online just the other day where an animal previously 40 in height suddenly dropped to a 30, LOL. I'll have to see if I can find that doe again...

While LA is "supposed" to be completely unbiased.....obviously it isn't, or folks wouldn't cancel sessions based on who the appraiser is....


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Ok I get that now...appraisers are human. I know that the year before last my appraisal scores (and almost everyone in this areas) were all down 1-4 points and then back up this past year in 2011 on some of the same does but I would never cancel based on who the appraiser is. Looking forward to see what this year's appraiser will tell me


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I agree with Tracy. I actually trust a show result (although I've only done one) before a linear appraisal. I've posted when I had questions on appraisals that just don't make sense and didn't get any *answers*. We had an awful LA a couple years ago. One doe had better scores than another, yet her overall score was worse. Another doe had better scores than her own scores the year before, yet her overall was worse. I think you really have to sit back for a few weeks, study the numbers and then you can say 'Well, this ain't so bad.' or 'Oh my, not so good'. My doe that scored 77 two years ago as a FF, scored 85 last year as a 2nd freshener. Some of it just don't make sense and you have to go with your gut. 

When I decide I need to sell *someone*, I sit down and make a list and then start putting them in catagories. Definite stay, maybe ??, could go. Then I wittle down who by writing down the reasons. The last doe I sold had nothing to do with her conformation (she placed over another doe here her same age showing and had better LA score), production (she hadn't freshened yet, but came from a great producing line--her dam and older half sister out of that dam both milked over 8#/day as FF) or personality (easy going line--the half sister is the one that never missed a beat being milked as a FF just a couple weeks fresh when we had a break out and 3 other does and two dogs all jumped on the milkstand and in my lap while I was milking her). Sold her because of her dam's udder being just awful and not wanting to worry about it popping back up later in that line. She was the last of that line and I sold her bred. I would have never sold a buck out of them and worried about selling doe kids before freshening and if they'd have *that* udder. :/ 
We had a great appraisal last year. I had one doe I was worried about having appraised, she'd had pneumonia. The appraiser said no problem and explained that illness does not *change* conformation. He also explained, like Tracy said, they have to appraise what they see *that* day...so my *perfect* buckling got marked down in shoulders. Appraiser said they were perfect, nothing wrong with them, he'd grow into them...but he had to appraise what he saw *that* day.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Yep, it is still subjective because you still have a human being making the judgement call. The usefulness to me would not be so much in the score, but in the explanations the appraiser could give. The appraiser should be able to give good reasons, not leave you wondering.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> I actually trust a show result (although I've only done one) before a linear appraisal.


Sorry- no way to trust a show result any more than LA- and in fact LA is more valuable because your information is based on your animal alone and not on competing with other animals. It is too often a popularity contest or a nod to a breeder with long impact on the breed or personal preference and seriously.... think about looking at a class of 70 yearlings all more perfect than perfect and trying to decide who is what in a very few minutes! It's like a sprinter who wins by 3 /100ths of a second....is he so so so much better than the field behind him by a blink of an eye? Yikes...not a job I would want but keep in mind even if you do not see it the politics are there.
Many people refuse to show under certain judges because they have known  exclusionary preferences in type in a particular breed.
Crazy but true but how else can it be- they are all human and we all see and process information differently. All of our decisions are based on cumulative experience none of which is the same in anyone so how can you expect something 'fair' and consistent under various people?. Just participating is fantastic and the best learning.But~Judging your stock on what wins in the show ring is so completely limiting.

Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And look at champions on folks websites, she wouldn't be middle of the pack in our show circuit.

I love new folks going to Lynnhaven's website, she has all the LA scores up even of her national winner and some of them FF scores are pretty pathetic...I think it shows you that although so many want that flash in the pan quickly that it takes until a doe matures to see what you really have. Our dry yearling classes are filled to busting around here...rarely do you see more than a handful of does in 5 and over.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

My best does are 5 and over


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

Another plug for appraising as a serious tool (while I agree with Tracy that one years' scores shouldn't be a deciding factor) is if a person appraises regularly, year after year, with the variety of appraisers that will evaluate their animals they should get a reliable trend or average that can be used to make culling decisions. And breeding decisions, etc.

It is a bit frustrating to me as a relative newbie (3 yrs) to be interested in buying a goat - particularly bucks at this point - and the herds I "like" and who have bloodlines I am interested in either don't appraise or don't appraise consistently so I can't get a quantifiable assessment on the dams, related animals, etc.

So, I am appraising yearly for this very reason - I figure one year may be down due to a "hard" appraiser but over time I should get a realistic picture of my animal - as well as can add into my thinking the daily factors like milkability and personality.

However I will say I have heard this talk twice now about folks cancelling sessions due to who the appraiser is, or even worse, being allowed to reschedule later with an appraiser they "like". That is the kind of politics I don't like and do think that we should all have to "take our lumps" the way they come. Having more $ to throw at it or being someone "special" in the ADGA world shouldn't allow one to manipulate the system. I totally understand that there are always "perks" to being an old-timer but an appraisal session and picking your appraiser is a pretty serious deal considering it goes into the permanent records.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

I appraised last year and I'm doing it again this year. I don't expect stellar scores with my ff's but I do have expectations. My LA person was awesome. I trusted her completely. We'll see about this year. Same with showing. It isn't like I show once. I show as often as possible. I don't have 5 years to give to a doe. I need results before that. If I sell one that turns out to be amazing, oh well. That is the game isn't it?


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I guess I maybe worded it wrong. Not so much that I trust shows better, but Linear Appraisal less. Still don't make sense does it? 2010 LA's were frustrating.  I don't trust them. I do them--marketing. But you have a bad appraiser one year and it's out there, so then is the marketing *really* that good. 
Examples: Lunamojo Midsummer Nites Dream --scored crappy in 2010 under the appraiser I didn't like. Scored good in 2011. Now if someones looking at those two scores on the ADGA site, which one do they believe? Well, the crappy one unless they look at other years with other does that I have/had. And how do they know to do that? They don't and they don't know the does that I own/ed. Like:
Bryrpatch Yellow Calendula --good scores in 2009. Better scores in 2010 (under that appraiser I didn't like), YET--the final score was lower. HUH? ??? I still can't figure that out. And we lost her last year to milk fever before appraisals, so I don't have 2011 to show that she was really a very nice doe. 

I just don't like those final scores. Tend to not even look at them. I look at the individual component scores and try to match breedings to improve on weakness. As far as using them to decide who to keep--there had better really be something there that is excellent about one and not another...or something that is much weaker than another. I have two littermate sisters appraised as young stock last year. The one that had the better score is on my list to go before her sister because she got noted as toeing out in the front feet. I was hoping to see udders on both before making my final decision, but the other isn't bred (I think). Waiting to make sure.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Denise I wouldn't have even kept the doeling if she toed out long enough to get her appraised, I have culled severely for that. I cut feet and legs some slack with some new bloodlines I bought in, never again, gone. Bad feet haunt you forever, they are a hugely heritable trait. Waiting for an udder on crappy feet, get rid of her.

On your first example she was a year older, a year more mature, a year more stature and depth of barrell and a year more of you knowing what you are doing at appraisal, conditioning, management. The score they believe is the newest score, she is going up like you expect.

Your second example, catagories do not hold the same weight. And these are questions you ask the appraiser right then, not only for the answer but because I have had an appariser overlook something before. Vicki


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## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

Great info! Helped me alot. Pics would help even more.


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