# Cydectin Sheep Drench Dose?



## Rosesgoats

What's the recommended dosage for Cydectin Sheep Drench in goats? The sheep dose is 1cc per 22lbs orally. Is it the same for goats? Also I see people like to rotate Cydectin with Ivomec Plus then Cydectin again, 10 days apart, is this a good rotation? I have kids with lots of BP worm eggs in their fecal samples and they need some rounds of deworming ASAP.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Rose if you haven't already purchased it don't, if you haven't opened it maybe see if they will let you exchange it for the cattle pouron instead. Cydectin cattle pouron has 5mg of drug in it, the sheep 1mg.....so when we use 1cc per 22 pounds of Cydectin orally in our goats you would have to use 5cc per 22 pounds of yours in the goat...which multiplied out for our girls is way to much liquid to give orally.

Using the 3 wormings 10 days apart is up to you and your worm burdens, if you have not been worming, using products incorrectly or at the wrong dosages, if your seeing anemia (bottle jaw also), if the animals are new than yes do it. But in just controlling HC/BP it only takes one dosing, refecal at 7 to 10 days after worming and it's unlikely you will see more eggs, but if you do see more eggs than yes, you do want to use an ivermectin product because it kills the 4th stage, we use Ivermectin plus here because in the south more people have problems with liver flukes which the plus in Ivermectin plus gets. But I would not be using ivermectin plus in my herd unless you have them, the flukecide drugs are very hard on the liver. Using wormers 10 days apart helps you kill all the lifecycles in your animals, something I only do in purchased stock.


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## tlcnubians

Cydectin and Ivomec are from the same chemical class of products, macrolytic lactones, so if you rotate between the two of them you aren't really "rotating" products. If your parasites are resistant to cydectin, they're going to be resistant to Ivomec because it was the first product offered in its class. my choice of dewormers is Cydectin injectable given orally. This product contains 10 mg moxidectin/ml (or 1%) so it's much more economical to use at the rate of 2.5 ccs per 100 lbs of goat. As Vicki suggests, do a fecal test, use the dewormer of your choice and then re-fecal at 7-10 days to see if your dewormer is working. If not, I would re-deworm using a combination of Cydectin and Valbazen, Cydectin and Levamisol or Cydectin and Safeguard (since each one is from a different chemical class) and then re-fecal again in ten days.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Caroline, part of the lifecycle of HC contains arrested larve, most often seen up north where she is because of the freeze, although I would say that we would see it, if it showed up on fecal, because of the drought. That arrested larve isn't touched by Cydectin, but is by Ivermectin....they are in the same family but are wildly different in their abilities in my herd. It is what I use for my 100 days pregnant worming, from the day a doe is pregnant here, until she delivers (as long as that delivery is in Feb/March) we never see raises in eggs on fecal although I do fecal monthly. But I know that arrested larve is in my doe and in the last part of pregnancy will rapidly grow into adults and suck blood, so killing them at 100 days when my does are being dried up, no more milk sales, just soap frozen for milk, lets me not just use Ivermectin for that, but also the Plus for liver flukes, which by doing that we haven't had any liverfluke problems....even with so many problems in Texas from liverflukes.

I know most see that we are in Texas and think that our management should be similar, what most don't get is how big Texas actually is and how different it is, me being near the gulf and you futher west. Why fecaling is so important. This way you know what works, know what doesn't for your herd. Vicki


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## Rosesgoats

Too late to return the drench. The kids are only 30 lbs right now so I can drench them with 6cc orally and call it good. I will re-fecal them in 10 days to see how the cydectin did. If no change then on to the Ivomec Plus.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Make sure you count eggs, write it down. I would like to know what they numbers are before you fecal also. You don't have to do all the goats, just pick a few, mix their pellets together. When I have time I do several in each pen, when I am rushed I collect from whoever poops and mix the berries. Vicki


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## Rosesgoats

I don't have a counting slide yet. I just have plain cover slips and regular slides. The doe kids had lots (100+ eggs) in their slide. The buck kids only had lots of coccidia (100+). Each adult doe had just a few BP eggs (10 or less) on their slides.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Well let us know after worming if you can see a difference. Vicki


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## Rambar Ranch

I'm glad this subect came up. Some one on homesteading today was giving out advice to dose cydectin pour-on at 1 ml/10 lbs. I didn't think it was correct as we've been using it at 1ml/25lbs with good results. But no one was contradicting them about it.

Ray


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## NubianSoaps.com

Ray I also use 1cc per 25 pounds, it's just every time I write that someone corrects me so it's easier just to write the status quo. We had a lot of folks saying 3 years ago that Cydectin was not working for them even at 1cc per 10 pounds (which of course their vets told them, as if they really go to the vet  when it turned out to be the liver fluke crisis Texas went through. HT is a little like beating your head against a brick wall, those who want to learn more do find their way here. Vicki


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## tlcnubians

"Caroline, part of the lifecycle of HC contains arrested larve, most often seen up north where she is because of the freeze, although I would say that we would see it, if it showed up on fecal, because of the drought. That arrested larve isn't touched by Cydectin, but is by Ivermectin."

Vicki - this comment interested me enough to ask Dr. Tom Craig for his thoughts on the subject. For those of you who aren't familiar with Dr. Craig, he is a veterinary pathobiologist here at Texas A&M vet school, who is a regular speaker at our goat club meetings. He specializes in parasites commonly found in small ruminants and is widely published in veterinary medical journals. This is what he had to say:

1) Moxidectin is the most potent anthelmintic against arrested larvae in any population of worms that is susceptible to ivermectin or moxidectin.
2) Winter arrest of Haemonchus does occur in small ruminants in Texas and seems to be important in hill country and west where normally there are summer rains and dry winters.
3) Winter arrest occurs here but pasture survival is usually more important.
4) Larvae survive drought if trapped in the fecal pellet if not they are dead.
5) I don't know how long drought survival is but larvae deposited, as eggs, on pasture in October will be on the grass in April.
6) Some populations of Haemonchus survive the long dry period as arrested larvae - this is important in eastern Africa and the Indian subcontinent.
7) By the time the level of corsulon in Ivomec plus kills common liver flukes the flukes have done most of their damage and that level has no effect on deer fluke. The reason she hasn't had fluke problems she does not have any.
8) When are her does ca 100 days pregnant? If this is after Thanksgiving that may be a OK time to get arrested larvae.
9) Injecting ivermectin in goats is perhaps the most potent selection mechanism for survival of resistant worms (Craig and Miller Vet Record 1990). However in brain worm areas it is done although Doramectin causes less pain and last longer but it results in the macrolides not being efficient against Haemonchus.
10) She could treat her deer but not within a month before hunting season and that does not prevent them becoming reinfected.


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## Rosesgoats

I did see liver flukes (Fascioloides magna) in some previous fecal samples on the same goats. I haven't seen them since... I don't know if this is due to missing the fluke eggs in a normal fecal sampling situation or the liver flukes went away? I haven't treated with corsulon. But I am confused now by what TLC said. I guess I can't do anything about liver fluke anyway since corsulon doesn't work?? I'll continue to ignore the flukes... maybe?

I guess I'll start by treating the wormy kids with Cydectin Sheep Drench at 5 cc per 22 lbs. My adults show a few worm eggs, do I need to treat them too?


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## buckrun

> 9) Injecting ivermectin in goats is perhaps the most potent selection mechanism for survival of resistant worms (Craig and Miller Vet Record 1990).


 SO many people need to hear this!

Lee


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## tlcnubians

Rose - I've sent Dr. Craig another email asking him about this and will let you know what he says.


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## Rosesgoats

Thanks!! 

Am I interpreting #9 from Dr. Craig in the previous post to mean we should not inject goats for deworming? Right? Just checking to make sure, the wording is a little wonky.


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## tlcnubians

Correct, Rose. With few exceptions, goats should always be given deworming products orally. Exceptions would be when you're treating for meningeal (white tail deer) worm or lice. Here's what Dr. Craig had to say about liver flukes:

"I don't know what they are seeing. One Fascioloides magna will kill a goat and never produce an egg. The eggs obtained from deer do not float. My students and I have worked a lot with this parasite mostly in cattle and white-tailed deer."

Caroline


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## Rosesgoats

I saw what Sue Reith described as Fascioloides magna in her pictures. A little egg that looks like HC but has a flat spot on the end that looked just like the liver fluke pictures I have found on here and elsewhere. Maybe the pictures I have researched are mistaken and those aren't liver fluke eggs.


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## tlcnubians

I sent him a copy of the FM pictures and this was his response, 

"The egg photo you sent is one that has been out of the deer for a week or so, I can see some larval development. The operculum blows off in a flotation solution. I'll almost bet the eggs they see are those of pasture mites." I don't have a clue what a "pasture mite" is but it sounds like their eggs are being mistaken for those of liver flukes. 

Caroline


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## NubianSoaps.com

1) Moxidectin is the most potent anthelmintic against arrested larvae in any population of worms that is susceptible to ivermectin or moxidectin. It just simply is not the case in my herd. Without using Ivermectin we had does kidding in March with large numbers of HC at kidding. With the pastures so high when my does kid in March and the pens cleaned for kidded, it is arrested in them, it is not from their stalls or pasture, with ryegrass belly high.
2) Winter arrest of Haemonchus does occur in small ruminants in Texas and seems to be important in hill country and west where normally there are summer rains and dry winters. And why I worm for them in the winter when my girls are 100 day pregnant and I don't have to worry about the milk withdrawal from the use of Ivermectin.
3) Winter arrest occurs here but pasture survival is usually more important. This isn't a problem in my herd, my rye grass is belly high by the time my girls are kidding in March, what would be my problem is letting them overwinter in my goats, so back to number 2. Worms/eggs only float up with pasture puddles or dew, at no time is pasture puddles or dew as high as bellies for pasture worms to reinfest the freshly wormed does the day they kid.

4) Larvae survive drought if trapped in the fecal pellet if not they are dead. I meant arrested in the does during the drought. We have much to high of humidity in our soil even in the drought to have anything killed in pasture, it would have to be a lot more arid for this to work here, burning pastures also doesn't work here.
5) I don't know how long drought survival is but larvae deposited, as eggs, on pasture in October will be on the grass in April.

Why rye grass is so important for spring pastures.
6) Some populations of Haemonchus survive the long dry period as arrested larvae - this is important in eastern Africa and the Indian subcontinent.

The difference is arid, we are in drought but our pastures are not arid, so the larvae lives.

7) By the time the level of corsulon in Ivomec plus kills common liver flukes the flukes have done most of their damage and that level has no effect on deer fluke. The reason she hasn't had fluke problems she does not have any.

Respectfully I know we have liver flukes here because we have found them on necropsy. By keeping the levels low, which for us happens during our winters, we don't have to rely on flukicides to keep our does alive in the spring and early summer when flukes do become a problem. I would think that someone living near the gulf would have much more problems with flukes than someone in hill country because we have water, not sure where the deer flukes came into this, but living in the national forest with abundant white tail deer, for those who do not keep them off their property meningeal worm does become a problem. I also don't use Ivermectin Plus for flukes at label dosages nor would I give it injected. I didn't talk about deer worm on here, but we have successfully treated a doe (my vet) with meningeal worm with injectable Ivermectin given as an injection. Ironically I learned to fecal from Texas A&M, I thought it was Dr. Craddock when SETDGA went there back in the late 80's or early 90's, my first refresher course was at Prairie view in the dairy barn. And I have sat at two SCTGA club meetings with Dr. Craig. Unless I have the names confused 

When are her does ca 100 days pregnant? If this is after Thanksgiving that may be a OK time to get arrested larvae.

Exactly what I said.

9) Injecting ivermectin in goats is perhaps the most potent selection mechanism for survival of resistant worms (Craig and Miller Vet Record 1990). However in brain worm areas it is done although Doramectin causes less pain and last longer but it results in the macrolides not being efficient against Haemonchus.
10) She could treat her deer but not within a month before hunting season and that does not prevent them becoming reinfected.

I agree and it is also why I fight about the use of Injectable Cydectin beings used as an injection, we should have learned from our past mistakes with Injectable Ivermectin given as an injection.

Sorry on my laptop I can't type the bottom of emails in red, the screen flickers. So although his email answered many things that are likely only seen at A&M Edwards Plateau and Prairie View, how we deal with arrested larvae and now liver flukes does in deed work for us, and many others. I am sure many of the goats who were dieing during the liver fluke epidemic about 3 years ago, had to go through A&M because so many were Boer herds, it was so bad they were calling me a dairy gal for advice, so yes flukes are a problem and yes Ivermectin Plus with it's flukeide used at 1cc per 30 pounds given orally worked. Do I still have flukes? I don't know, and for the much less than $1 a doe I won't stop using my protocol on the chance it doesn't need to be done anymore. With 3 old girls likely being put down in the next few years, they will be used for necropsy for my answers on what is and what isn't working on my farm right now...I prefer to know and use management that specifically works on my farm. Vicki


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## Rosesgoats

The eggs I saw that looked like liver fluke to me had a very clear operculum on them. The poop that had them was from my doe kids and it was collected poop that had been laying on the ground in the stall in the morning so I am not sure how long it had been out of the goat. I only saw these once in samples back in May. I haven't seen any in my recent sampling.


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## Qvrfullmidwife

I know that this thread is older, but it popped up when I was searching for something else and dragged me in. 

I will never forget one lecture given by Dr Craig at A&M a few years ago...he showed a slide of goats on lush, green pasture and called it a "death-filled worm paradise" or something close. Then a slide of goats on logs in a pasture that looked exactly like ours--dry sand, no grass. He said "THAT is how you get healthy goats with low worm burdens". It was a potent vindication for us against those who are horrified that our goats are not 100% "grass fed". At least we know that with our goats either on sand or chowing down in the yaupon in our woods that we are not contributing to worm burdens, regardless of the wormer that we use, which is very important with what we can and cannot use technically dictated to us by the Pasteurized Milk Ordinance.


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## swgoats

Our little green pens sure were trouble. They are dirt now, and things do seem much easier. My vet did tell me cydectin pour on 1cc/10lbs (cross my heart hope to die, I have the script lol). We did find it effective. But they do get a little nuts with it. They told me this spring that they were told by A&M that anyone who had worm burdens should use cydectin weekly! Now how sustainable is that?!


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## Trysta

Vicki, just making sure I get this right: you deworm with ivermectin _injectable_ at 100 day pregnant and this results in no milk witholding time after kidding? I just got my first group of 100+ days does out and want to deworm them with ivermec, but wasn't sure if that is okay. I sell my milk. Oh and 100+ days: that would be 116 days right now for the 4 does that are farthest along.


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## Trysta

Pff, now things are getting together in my head. I just treated 4 pregnant does for pneumonia tonight, was a bit baffled why they are coughing and act sick. While reading all this deworming stuff, I figured out they probably have lungworms. Hitting myself in the head for that one. The fever is what got me thinking regular pneumonia, but the 'why' escaped me, until I read up on all this lungworm stuff here on the forum: fever can occur with lungworms, I didn't know that. Does that mean they may have a secondary bacterial pneumonia, too, then? 

So now off to the barn to treat them with Ivermectin injectable orally. I hope I have this all right (never used Ivermectin orally, but it's what I get from goatkeeping 101), and I'll give them 1 cc/30 lbs. These are all yearlings that come out of a pretty wet pasture. They are 110, 108, 101 and 101 days pregnant, so I'm hoping this will work out with milk witholding and if not: so be it, I'll have to withold milk awhile after kidding then. I'll have to get these ladies healthy. 

I will probably have to deworm this whole group of does, but have 4 does in this group that are 116 days pregnant. They are healthy, not coughing. Should I deworm them with Ivermectin, too or should I use something else since they are closer to their due date?


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## NubianSoaps.com

I only do 36 hour milk withdrawal on Ivermectin injectable given orally...what I use at 100 days pregnant is Ivermectin Plus with added liverfluke control and want that 50 days plus before milk sales start again. 

Short and sweet posts, I stabbed my hand trying to pry apart peanut brittle for the Gboys and typing one handed is for the birds!


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## Trysta

Thanks Vicki, and I sure hope that hand heals again quickly. I only had Ivermectin on hand last night, so that's what the 4 got, I will find some 'plus' today and get that to everyone. Is it safe to redo those 4 in case they have liver flukes?


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## NubianSoaps.com

Yes, you can easily do another round in 10 days. 

The hand is just sore this morning, crazy all the stuff I actually do with my left hand! Vicki


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## Trysta

Thanks, will do! The 4 does are doing better today and eating, so I'm guessing the penicillin and banamine I gave them earlier helped with the pneumonia symptoms. Still glad I dewormed, and I will stick with that system (ivermectin plus at 100 days) from now on. 

I always tell people that goat farmers should have 3 hands, because there are a lot of things I have a hard time dealing with even with two hands (clipping a goat's head/face/ears, for example!), so I can imaging you're in trouble with just one hand!


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## Rosesgoats

Fecal sample results from this weekend: I did my fecals on all the goats and found that after giving Cydectin Sheep Drench at 5cc per 22lbs, that all the goats had NO stomach worms. I didn't find any eggs on my slides. Yay! I did find some coccidia in one adult doe and a bunch in my male kids. They hadn't been treated in a while so I will start them on the Sulmet for a week. I gave the male and female kids a round of Safeguard after the Cydectin to get any tapeworms so hopefully that worked. All in all, I am happy to not see as many worm eggs on the slides as last time. I will repeat the fecals next month and see where I am at again.

Oh, and to comment on the dry lot pastures: Sheesh! I wish I had enough money to feed my goats hay all the time but I don't so I have to depend on my growing grass pastures to keep them fed. I do rotate them but not as much as I would like to. That is next year's project.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Make sure an refecal 7 to 10 days after worming....otherwise you will have clean fecals because of evacuation, not because your adult worms abandoned ship  A few coccida are expected in adult goats, it's why I don't think regular slides are much help, the count would have to go into the high thousands for me to treat an adult doe for cocci without any symptoms....yes I would do Feb or March kids if it was in the low thousands.


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## Hopeofglory

*Cydectin Sheep drench question*

I have Cydectin sheep drench. On the bottle it says to dose at 1ml per 11 pounds. Is that what I would do for goats. I have Nubians.


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## MF-Alpines

That is what is listed in the Health & Wellness section. That being said, it doesn't make sense since it only contains 1 mg/mL. Cydectin Pour-On contains 5 mg/mL and is dosed at 1cc/22 lbs. Following that dosage it equates to .23 cc/lb. So if we round that up to 1/4 cc/lb, 1cc only treats 4 lbs of goat. That would be a LOT of drenching for a full grown doe or buck. 

Here is how it is listed in Health & Wellness:

A. Cydectin® Pour-On for Cattle
Contains 5 mg moxidectin/mL
1ml/22#'s = 5mg moxidectin (cattle dose) also (goat dose used by most of us)
B. Cydectin® Oral Sheep Drench
Contains 1 mg moxidectin/mL
1ml/11#'s= 1mg moxidectin (recommended sheep dose)
C. Quest® Gel moxidectin~Contains 20 mg moxidectin/mL ......Quest is 4x's stronger than Cydectin.
So, if the dose for Cydectin is 1cc/25# or 4cc/100, Quest would be 1cc/100#'s or 1/4cc per 25#.
**** Cydectin injectable that contains 10mg/kg moxidectin and is dosed at 2.5 ccs per 100 lbs

I do believe that no one uses it due to the fact that it is a lot of liquid.

Anyone else care to comment?


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## MF-Alpines

Hopeofglory said:


> I have Cydectin sheep drench. On the bottle it says to dose at 1ml per 11 pounds. Is that what I would do for goats. I have Nubians.


Vickie: Read this entire thread. You will learn a lot about why the sheep drench is not used. 5cc/22 lbs. As I said earlier, a lot of liquid.

Can you take it back and get the pour-on?


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