# disbudding bred doe...



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I have a question I want to run by you... The doe that I bred this month (only 10 or so days ago, so not sure yet if it took) is going to the vet tomorrow to be disbudded again. She's had it done 3 times already (by someone else) and none of them worked. I was going to have it done sooner, but the vet advised that I wait and make sure they are indeed horns, b/c if just scurs, it may not be worth putting her through that again. Well, they're indeed horns. She and one of my bucks who has a large, unbreakable scur curving around and pressing on his skull are to be sedated, given pain meds, and disbudded. I had them do this with another doe who needed re-disbudding, and they did a beautiful job without all the screaming and struggle that can come with re-doing the horns of an older doe. Question is, do you think this will cause her to abort if she is bred? (stress, or meds?) Are there any other precautions I should take or anything specific I should mention/ask the vet? Also, since I'm having one of my LGDs spayed at this time, too, they recommended that I just leave everyone overnight, rather than making 3 trips up there. They have a barn and will feed them according to my directions. If you were me, would you leave them, or make the extra trip (45 minutes one way) to get the goats home the same night? (The dog will have to stay the night, regardless, and the other LGD will get spayed when this one recovers so I can have at least one "on duty" at all times.) Thanks for any advise and/or suggestions!


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## Bilrite Farms (Oct 26, 2007)

I guess, if it were my doe, I wouldn't do this if she was bred but perhaps others will have a different view.

Trisha


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Would you wait? And then have longer horn to deal with later? If this isn't advisable, I could always take both bucks for re-disbudding (the other buck needs it, too, but he breaks his scurs off regularly, so it's not as urgent) and then maybe try the doe later... Though I'm nervous about letting her horns grow too long and having a bigger problem down the road.... :help2


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

At 10 days bred....anything you do can cause the egg not to implant. Look, you've set up the appointment, you've got it all lined out, you still have Dec. to get the doe bred again IF she's preg. and doesn't hold it. You'll know in about 11 or 12 days after the surgery. She either comes in heat or not.
You have the buck she was bred to at home? YOU have to decide which one is worse...dealing with those horns after she freshens or having May kids.

LOL...I've got a doe with wattles (UGH) and I've been meaning to take them off ever since she was a 6 mo.old doeling. (I received her with them...not raised here!) She's 2yrs. old! Well....everytime I get ready to take them off she's either pregnant, just freshened, or will have a show in a couple weeks!! I finally just gave up and let her keep them! Now, she's a finished CH and I could care less! Horns on the other hand...I'd take them off and go from there.

I'd also not make 3 trips to the vet and pick them all up at the same time! Besides, if something goes wrong...she's already at the vets! 
Just my opinion,
Kaye


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks, Kaye.  Having never gone through this before, I'm not really sure which is worse. I'm due in May, so that isn't great timing... How much will horns grow in 5 months? I do have the buck at home (he's the one that's getting disbudded, too) so I'm thinking that I'd go ahead with the disbudding... Like you said, I can breed again... not ideal, but if necessary could delay it and have June kids. The doe was born in February, so if it doesn't take and she has to wait a bit, it might be better for her... A newphew to this doe had some serious horns from a failed disbudding, and after not even 3 months, I think the new owner opted not to mess with them. I don't want a horned doe.

Can any of the meds (pain/sedation) cause birth defect that you know of, if she does hold the breeding?


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Any drugs given during the 1st trimester "can" cause problems. It's not like she's 2-3 months bred. No, I can't say there will be NO DEFECTS. I can't even say there will be no defects without having drugs.

You CAN also opt not to breed her this year?? She can show as a dry yearling~if you show. I'd have to opt to get rid of the horns, over having kids from her this year.

I have to ask why you bred her if you knew you were going to have the horns taken off? 
Kaye


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2008)

:yeahthat

I'd get rid of the horns and leave her dry for this year.

JMO,
Sara


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Kaye, I bred her b/c I believe I'll need the milk. (I produce tons, but yet to have a baby that can latch on properly, and would rather use goat milk than formula if it's available, and I absolutely hate pumping--very very very bad experience...) Who knows, maybe I'll be able to nurse this time, but even then, not sure if baby will be able to handle cow's milk protein (I have a child who can't) so yet another reason to have goat milk--I'll need a calcium source that won't cause baby problems. I asked the vet about breeding her, and she said that she'd do it, and thought that surely after 3 disbuddings, I'd just see scurs and we really wouldn't have to worry with it. Turns out we have full blown horns on our hands. Really couldn't tell until recently. (Someone more experienced could more than likely, but I couldn't.)

In thinking about it, I suppose if we have kids w/defects, it won't be the end of the world. I hadn't planned on selling any kids this year, but want to grow my herd a bit first and be able to see firsthand what I'll be producing here. If it takes an extra year to do that, it will be okay.

I haven't ventured into the showing world yet.  With soon to be 4 children under the age of 6, I'm a little too busy to want to try too many new things just yet.  Homeschooling and learning how to be a good goat-owner are enough for now. Maybe in a few years!


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2008)

Just a question...

Who the heck is doing all of these botched disbudding jobs?

Sara


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks, Sara. So it sounds like both of you would take care of the horns, so I'm making a good choice here. If she doesn't hold this breeding, I know June kids have a harder time w/parasites, but maybe that would be worth it if I need the milk... Not ideal, and I might have to use formula for a few months, but that's better than a $150 formula bill every month for a year!


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

I have a different take. If you may need this does' milk for YOUR baby, then I would leave the horns and have her disbudded later. I mean, if she isn't a "great" doe, then sell her later as a doe with horns, or else just disbud in September or so next year. If she kids too late, you may not have the milk when you need it (early on). At this point, she is a means to an end.

You also might consider purchasing a doe in milk in the Spring and sell her as a late bred doe. What you save on the disbudding fee could go a long way to purchasing a nice doe. Either way, I'd make sure I had a goat milk supply lined up weeks before that baby is due. 

My vote always goes to the Bo-Binkies!  Camille


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I agree with Camile


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

What's 11 days going to matter?? Either the doe has no horns, holds the preg. and no problems-human baby milk or she looses the preg. and comes into heat in 11 days and is rebred.?

I'd still opt for the no horns.
Kaye


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2008)

And I'd opt to make my priority the doe. 

Babies can be fed formula if necessary or better yet, buy a healthy doe in milk! 

JMO,
Sara


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## Bilrite Farms (Oct 26, 2007)

See - I knew there'd be _some _discussion on this :biggrin I have to second Sara's question on why there are so many with bad disbudding jobs.

Of course, everyone has to do what is best for their situation... I'd band them if she were at my place but Kaye and Sara have a good point too... what is 11 days, really, and as Camille and Sondra said, maybe you can deal with the horns.

Interesting discussion so far gals!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

All I can really say is I wouldn't have another goat here with horns to be real honest The goat or the horns would have to go. and looking at what Kaye stated 11 days big deal get the horns off. Changed my mind.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Not all babies do well on formula. And Billie already knows that her other child could not tolerate cows' milk.

Myself - make sure that the doe will kid sooner than later. Why? Because human babies do not always wait for their due date. She also may not want to assist/milk/get a kid started when she is 39 weeks pregnant, so in a sense, I would want to "protect" the expectant mother as well. On the list of priorities, this doe (without horns) is down the list a ways. If the timing was different I would concur completely with Kaye (including leaving all of the critters and making one trip).

Can you line up a healthy doe in milk for Spring purchase? With the price of formula you can easily justify the purchase of a doe that kidded in March if your doe loses this breeding.

Lots of options - I just approach it all from the baby's and mother's point of view. Camille


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Okay, gals, I have a confession! I also bred the other Feb doe *just in case* this one didn't take so I'd have milk. Double my odds, you know. She's big enough, but b/c I had got some flack about not breeding both this year, I didn't divulge that info... But being so new to this, I didn't want to trust one breeding with something so important. SO, I suppose we shall see! I could have 2 does kidding in April, just one, or none. I'll know in a couple weeks. (Don't yell at me!)

The big deal about 11 days is my due date. I don't want to be in the hospital giving birth and then having my does home kidding without me! (Of course, if my doctor doesn't get any nicer--he's not crazy about having a prior homebirth wacko patient--I might decide to stay home and we can all kid in the barn!  ) I prefer to deliver standing up as opposed to laying down, anyway. Gravity is a great birth aid! (I'm only sort-of joking!)

Sooo... I suppose there are some options. Formula, purchasing a doe in milk, and maybe we won't need any of those. Either way, I'll know soon and will have some time to plan. (But I'll need y'all's help if I have to buy a doe in milk!)

As for why there are so many with bad disbudding jobs... well, I can't exactly answer that without incriminating someone who is not a member of this forum and no way to defend herself. So, I'd prefer to not answer that one publicly. 

I've just been informed that I have a chicken running loose in my house....what next?!?!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well I don't mean to be totally rude but, am wondering just why you bred her and then set up the appointment for disbudding which really is going to be a dehorning procedure now, not disbudding. Think for now your just going to have to dicide for yourself which you want more and go with it right or wrong. We can't help you in this. You have to do what I do is take all info in digest it and do what I want to anyway


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> I don't want to be in the hospital giving birth and then having my does home kidding without me!


 :rofl Unless you're a lot tougher than me, sister, those goats kidding would be the furtherest thing in my mind!! I didn't take child-bearing real well. Ummm...in fact, I think with the last one I DID utter profanities about my husband's mother and I guess he really could have filed terroristic threating charges against me! Notice I did say my last one! YEP! 
Kaye


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Sondra, I didn't realize until after I bred her that they were going to be horns, not scurs. That last bit of horn around the front just showed through. I was afraid of this, but hoping otherwise. Maybe a little foolish on my part. Maybe just a newby mistake. Either way, I realize I could have been wiser, but had hoped that the vet would be right--that it would just be scurs. Seems that was wishful thinking. This doe doesn't like for me get near her hornbuds like the others do (I wouldn't either, if I'd been disbudded 3 times already) so I probably didn't inspect her well beneath the fur as I should have. I like your candor.... "take all the info, digest it, then do what I want!"  I'm glad to hear these options, though, so I can present some ideas to my husband when we discuss it tonight. 

Kaye, you're a hoot! I don't think any of us are tough when it comes to giving birth. I'd rather go through Marine Corps boot camp again--three times--than go through another 40+ hour labor again! Birth is so much bigger than we are. I thought I was tough until my first labor... Now I realize I'm really quite frail in the grand scheme of things!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: disbudding bred doe... funny update*

I was talking to my family about the logisitics of how this is going to work tomorrow... fitting 3 kids who are supposed to be in car seats, a buck in a large dog kennel, and a doe and a dog in our minivan. My eldest (5) said he wanted to go to work with Daddy tomorrow instead. I asked why... he said, "I don't want to spend the night at the vets!" :rofl


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## tiger408 (Aug 3, 2008)

wow.... that is going to be quite the carload.... should be interesting though lol


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

Just my opinion but I would get those horns off. And the reason why is that you have small children. Horns and children just don't mix, just an accident waiting to happen. So, if you already might have one bred then you could always bred her to kid a few weeks after you.

Another suggestion, take advantage of the lactation nurse at the hospital. Why not call now and set up an appointment to meet with her before the baby comes? You already had some bad experiences it sounds like which can make nursing harder. When I had my son he did not want to nurse and I probable would have given up if it had not been for those nurses. 
Theresa


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

and Theresa should know she is a nurse in this field :}


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I spent over $600 in lactation consulting with my first born--multiple visits, rented pump, etc. Had I got to them sooner (before I was so badly damaged) I'm certain it would have worked. (It would have worked had I been able to take some serious pain meds and continue nursing!) My second, I had someone out to the house (a NICU nurse, not a lactation consultant, who was a friend) and we did fine with latch on, but she (baby) wasn't interested. She's still a picky eater! My 3rd, I had to deliver in a hospital that didn't have lactation consultants (I was transfered from home, b/c it was supposed to be my 3rd homebirth, but with failure to progress, I needed help) Well, that one did the same things my first one did, and if I had help, probably could have done it, but couldn't get it by myself. This time, I've chosen to go with a hospital birth because 1. I don't want as long a labor as I've had in the past (shortest 16 hours, longest 48 hours) and 2. because of those awesome lactation consultants at the particular hospital. (I actually chose my doctor based on who had the lowest C-section rate at the hospital where those consultants are!) I'm well acquainted with a couple of them, and will take their breastfeeding class and meet with them prior to the birth. I also have the name and number of another LC who is supposed to be awesome and will do postpartum doula in addition. Since we're having a hospital birth this time, our insurance will pay for it, unlike the midwife which we had to pay for out of pocket. So, the extra funds we'll have for not having to pay for our midwife we will probably spend on having the LC/Postpartum doula stay here for a few days after I get home from the hospital. (I still need to call her, but that's the plan! Birth isn't until May.  ) Soooo... with all that help, I really really hope I can do it this time! Funny, I was the perfect parent until I had kids! How humbling this motherhood stuff is! Whew! And now y'all know a good chunk of my life story! Always been the queen of TMI, I'm afraid!


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry about all the bad stuff with nursing. Don't give up. And some babies are just lazy when it comes to nursing. Why nurse when it just flows from a bottle! Yes, that was my son. But with the help of the lactation nurse, oh, and my mom when I got home with him. I was sucessful. So don't give up and try not to think about all those bad experiences. This one will be different.
And if you are going to use a pumb, I highly recommend buying or renting one of the good ones. It makes all the difference. I had one of the cheap ones with my son and got a Medula (I think that is the brand) with my daughter. Needless to say, I stuck with it alot long with her. (Of course she would not drink anything else! Boy was I glad when she started eating food. Oh, and she would not eat that baby food either, it was all table food for her!)
But yes, take the lactation class and meet with the lactation consultants before you deliver. And then start asking for them to come and help as soon as the baby is born. Make sure that the nurses that are taking care of you and the baby know that you want to nurse, you might even tell them no bottles or pacifiers for the baby. I wish you the best of luck. Maybe this little one will be a natural from birth and you will have worried about all this for nothing!
Theresa


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thank you Theresa! I appreciate your advise and encouragement!

I just got word from the vet that the spay of the dog (after a very eventful morning) and the dehorning of the goats went well. They actually had to cut and burn the goats at this point, and there are open sinus cavities for me to keep an eye on. May need penicillin if it starts to look bad, but so far, everyone is doing well! Glad it is done now rather than waiting and making it even more traumatic. More good news, my cocci & worm loads are next to nothing on the boys' fecals, so the new feed and corid every 3 weeks (I took the liberty to do 3 weeks instead of 4!) is working, so that's what I'll keep doing!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

corid is every 21 days so your close.
Glad all went well keep those open cavities covered so dirt and flies don't get in there.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

What do I use to cover them? I asked the vet about furazone, and she said it's illegal except for horses. I said, "I know it's illegal for food producing animals, but technically, they're not food producing. They're dairy, not meat goats and *they* don't produce the milk." She said, "Weeellllll.... I can't tell you to use it."  So, is this what you would use? Or something else? Thankfully, there are no flies this time of year here. 

We will see when these come back if my other buck is worth doing, or if I want to just watch him break those sliver scurs off periodically... or buy scur nippers. The doe was definitely horns and had to be done. The buck that was done had a large scur growing over into his skull so it definitely had to be done. Will be glad when all is healed and it's over-over!

I had asked the vet about doing Corid every 3 weeks rather than 4, but she said 4 should be fine. Well, this time, I told her I took the liberty of doing it every 3 weeks and she was fine with that.  Clean fecals are nice to see.


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## tiger408 (Aug 3, 2008)

That's great that everything went smoothly at the vet's office. Hope they heal up quickly for ya.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

super glue gauze over it and use furall spray


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Okay, do I super glue around the sides and then put the gauze on? How long do I leave it there? Will it come off on its own? If not, when do I replace it? Any tips on taking it off or just rip it? How long will it take for a dime sized hole in the skull to get some tissue growth over it? I was SOOOO not prepared for the gross-out factor here. I'm surprized the goats still like me. Thankfully, there is only one hole on one side of my buck's head and the other 3 horns (between him and my doe) were only burned. 

I'm looking at the scurs on my other buck and thinking he should get done too, but UGH I don't want him to have to go through this!


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

very interesting thread!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Update: the doe came back into heat. Gestation IS 5 months, right? I let the buck breed her (and even with his head, he was willing, ready, and able--thank God!) so we shall see.... I'm due the end of May, so hopefully she'll deliver end of April, right? I just wish that letting the buck breed her would have earned me some brownie points with him. He still hates me.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"(Of course, if my doctor doesn't get any nicer--he's not crazy about having a prior homebirth wacko patient--I might decide to stay home and we can all kid in the barn!"

You should have MY OB...he'd rather be with me in the barn kidding out goats


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

:biggrin LeeAnne, seriously, y'all make me want to move to Texas sometimes! Really, nice doctors, a midwife extrordinaire  , no state income tax, ability for homeschoolers to produce their own transcripts and diplomas, and nicer weather! 

Now, Looks like possibilites might be near San Antonio, Houson, Nacodoches, or Weatherford... Any of y'all near any of those places?  Fortunately for y'all, my husband will never move, b/c I'd probably be a real Pain... wanting to come watch disbuddings and tatooings and whatnot.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

We are near Houston and Lynn is near Nacogdoches. 

OK...I think I have an extra "pump in style" that you can have for shipping if you like. Not as good as a rental hospital grade but pretty good all in all.

Also...I have issues nursing almost all of mine. Goat milk meant the difference between a baby that falls off the growth chart with failure to thrive and a sweet chubby healthy baby.

Also I have found medications that make the world of difference in supply...I wish I'd have found them earlier. Not FDA approved though, but worth their weight in gold at about a dollar a day. It meant supplementing with 12 oz or less of goat milk rather than 24plus oz of goat milk a day.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks, LeeAnne. Our new insurance will pay for a hospital grade rental, or I'd take you up on that pump in a heartbeat! Our insurance paid my midwife over twice her normal rate w/ my last birth b/c I was a hospital transport--she got ambulance pay! Now our old insurance... that's another story. They were far less woman & baby friendly, but I won't go on that rant! 

It is comforting to know I'm not the only one w/nursing issues! Especially from folks like you and a friend of mine who just had her 7th baby. My friend said, "You'd think that by now I'd have it figured out, but I need help every time!"


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2008)

fftopic

Thanks,
Sara


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

:blush2

Okay Sara.  You know how I get carried away!

So goat gestation is 5 months, right?


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2008)

stoneyheightsfarm said:


> So goat gestation is 5 months, right?


Yes, about 150 days, give or take.

Sara


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