# News flash: Wrestling goats is not for the faint-hearted....



## dvm-mommy (Feb 5, 2009)

Well, we succeeded...sweaty, dirty and very smelly...but we did it!

Got our Saanen doe's mouth pried open (the one that has the cheek lump) and took a look-see to find out why she has an abscess: found a wound inside cheek...and that was the extent of looking before she threw the biggest drama scene ever and started stressing herself into dying.... :crazy We let her up immediately and called it a day. Don't want to do *that* again. 

The lump is looking better and she seems to be responding to the antibiotics. Hopefully it resolves without me having to go in fishing for a foreign body.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

What, you haven't stolen a cud yet? Me either, but that sounds a whole lot like goat wrestling to me. :lol I hope I never have to do it. I'm sure I will some day, if I keep goats long enough. :sigh


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Goat wrestling....well around here that's giving ANYTHING orally to my 200+ lb Alpine doe, Poppie. She KNOWS when I'm coming with dewormer/copper/etc....she can really throw me for a loop! Straddling her....she's too tall. Arm wrestling...she's STRONG for a goat. The milkstand usually works okay, but man does she put up a fight!! And to think I started breeding goats because they were small enough to muscle around :rofl.

Seriously though...hopefully whatever caused the wound is long gone and it's smooth sailing from here for you.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

glad that you found what seems to be a source other than CL!!!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh the life of a goat owner  Hope the sore inside that you saw is or was the source for this.


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

:rofl


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

"ACK!" I hope her sore is better now. I learned how to wrestle from the best, my mean ole' Alpines! :twisted

Heck.....I can even arm wrestle alligators now! :really


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2009)

I had a mean ole buck once and he hated hooves trimmed, wormed, just about anything.. One day on the stand he kicked and broke my nose when i was bent over trimming his hooves.. I wrapped his beard in my hand, turned him loose and we wrestled and fought.. I beat that buck up bad, I was so tired of fighting him all the time.. and then I beat him up some more.. Well after that day he started to behave whenever I would shake my fist at him.. but boy you should have seen me.. I was nasty looking sore and mad..I hear you on the wrestling Alligators bernice..I thought that i was that day, but there was no way a goat was going to break my nose again and get away with it.
Barb


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

:rofl I know I'm laughing now but I'll be there one day too Barbara! Theodon is also like that on the stand, we haven't duked it out yet. Now the does we went rounds this morning. I'm already bushed. Tammy


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Well you know this is coming  You can't let them win like that. Even giving wormer meds on the milkstand if a doe fights me and acts the fool, I will actually hold onto her mouth much longer than I even need to, to teach her a lesson. We don't do stuff like this for fun, it's needed, you have to learn how to control livestock......throw them if you have lighter children sit on their shoulder and hip, larger people can lean on them, have someone holding the head down to the ground while you pry the mouth open, put in the bit so you can really look around. Is this abscess on the same cheek she ruminants on? Take out the cud and see if there is something in it, is there a thorn or something else in a tooth right where this sore is on the cheek that needs to be removed because it's scarping on it?

Sorry a sore inside the mouth that coincides with an abscess on the outside of the mouth, wouldn't ease my nerves at all, because it simply can mean this is where the abcess brust into.

Think about how you are going to do this with no kids to help or when your old, better learn all the tricks you can now. Vicki


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

That's why I have a "mean" collar. It's a small one of those pronged buck collars for Boer goats. If she walks with me I don't squeeze the prongs on her neck. If she won't come with me she's going to feel it. Yes, we will tie her head up and her feet down, if we have to to treat her. I AM going to lead her, I AM going to milk her, and she may as well just get used to the idea.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

As the lone old lady here at the farm, I have learned to wrestle goats, horses and large dogs all by myself. Its a challenge to be sure, but as Vicki said, you can't let them win. If you do they will be 100% worse the next time you have to do something with them. I cheat when I have to, but I always win. I have to. I'm the alpha bitch, mare and doe.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

I'm working on that Alpha bitch thing. What if you have a male dog who think he may outranks tha alpha bitch someday? 

My LGD pup has been good about minding me until it comes to "stop playing the baby goat to death" and "NO BITE" When he's playing with me. Usually I simply end the play or petting session when he won't stop play biting on me. I have bought him toys to chew. He has things and bones to chew. He plays with me as if I were another puppy and I am NOT a puppy. I am alpha bitch!

I wrestled a stallion horse once and he lost.....at the sale barn, because he would not be dominated and he almost killed me. It was sad, but thats where animals end up which we have not trained from birth to be handled and allow us to touch and treat them and behave themselves. The owners of said horse waited 10 years to try to have him broken. It didn't work. He behaved while boarded, but then he was let go on the farm rather then pay board. and he quickly forgot his manners. It's a wonder he ever attained any. He behaved for about 6 months and then just refused to mind. A cowboy bought him and tried to work with him. A no go. He ended up in the horse hereafter.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

When mine did that I acted like their mother did when they kept after her. I growled and knocked them over. (Shoulder slam type of thing, not the so called alpha roll)

Have you tried stuffing a toy in his mouth when he chews on you? Or re-direct his behavior in some way?


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## dvm-mommy (Feb 5, 2009)

"Well you know this is coming You can't let them win like that. "


ummm.well, she didn't *win*....technically I won, I got to see what I needed to. And when I mean she was trying to pass out on us, I am not kidding (no pun intended)....she went limp and turned *blue*...as in cyanotic...after a half hour (guess I shoulda mentioned how long we worked with her) of not letting her get her way. There comes a limit to everything. I told you she was the nervous type!

I do the tricks mentioned as I do not let a goat get the better of me. To have given up on her would have been to not even pry the stick into her mouth and "stick" with it for the 30 minutes we did! 

We do the same with idiotic behavior with some of our does (hold their mouth open longer, play with udder longer if they are fidgety milkers, etc). They know better. Snowy is just that, nervous and scared half to death of everything....she takes everything else pretty good (wormers, boluses, etc). I am able to do most things by myself wit hno help, so no worries there. I also want to be safe as thos eflailing hooves are quite dangerous!

Well, my mind is at ease more so than before. I am still waiting on culture, and I have seen ruptured abcesses, this was a puncture type wound...not an abscesss that ruptured on own. 
The exudate was very runny, light cream colored and very smelly. Come to think of it, it smelled just like Sophie's abscess from her dog bite wound that was loaded with Pasteurella!! 
Not that I would go diagnosing things on smell, but I do rely on my nose pretty heavily and can smell a pseudomonas ear infection in a cocker before I even have an ear swab in my hand. Can diagnose ketoacidosis and even azotemia from renal failure from the next room. 
Snowy's abscess is also responding well to anitbiotics and getting smaller and smaller. So something is working.

Now to just figure out why one of our lambs is limping....


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Yeah. I learned the redirect trick on my children, when you must take away a non-toy.....give a toy back. Hmm. I guess I'll keep just knocking him outta the way when he gets annoying. Maybe he will get it eventually.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

If the puppy is chewing on you than he is challenging you for a pack position and not accepting you as an alpha. Alpha has respect and respected space that the other dogs keep unless invited within the space (physical contact). Even saying "No Bite" to your pup means he got your attention. Give attention to good behavior and IGNORE bad manners. CHewing on you or bothering you in any way you did not initiate is RUDE and I woudl not give the pup the time of day. I would stand up and walk away (walk really tall and slow like you are the big shot which he needs to learn you are) ignoring him any time he does it , or at the worst growl at him and face away from him, like you don't even want to look at him (no eye contact). Mine learned very quickly. 

My female dog acts exactly the same (and I have learned this from her as well as from ES owners training their dogs). If I let her in the goat pen where he is and he runs to her and jumps at her she ignores him like he is not even there and when she gets annoyed enough and he does not get the message, growls or snaps at him. The puppy is not yet respecting you as an alpha (bitch of male makes no difference - you need to assert yourself to the highest rank in the pack and act that way). 

The best way you can set yourself as an alpha and reassure that you are still in the position is ignore your pup every time you are back with him. If you enter the pen, for at least 2 minutes act like he is not even there. STand tall and look around, read your paper or what have you, just completely ignore him. He will try his repertoire of actions to get your attention and eventually go lie down or settle. You can call him after that to come to you or yourself initiate play. But the alpha decides when to play and how , not the pup. 

If he is running livestock, that's not a good thing. How old is he now? You need to have a pup in training with livestock a tad tougher than himself to keep him in place. If he is dominating the stock, you need to add some animals to put him in his place. My pup is with my herd queen and he won't dare touch her. He was messing with one of the other does udders and I just put him away from her unless I can supervise when he is in with her. If I supervise, he needs to respond to recall as your as 2 months old (AAACCCK or NO or whatever your recall is). Behavior that is unacceptable needs to be corrected, shake his scruff or roll him if he does not get it) 

Jana


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Well Lori I'm glad you got to see in her mouth I hope its OK. You have had some trials! 
The only thing that really gets me about working with any animal is one that won't come when you want it to. Dog, cat, goat, whatever. If you can't catch it, no, if you have to even try to catch it instead of it just coming to you, well, it hacks me off to no end!


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks for the advice. He's 14 weeks old and big already. Theresa, he's twice as large as when I brought him home. :biggrin

I did push him off me several times last evening when I was sitting in my chair outdoors. He finally went and laid down. My little rattie (an older, but small dog) puts him in his place all the time just by growling and barking at him. He doesn't want to put up with puppy antics. So I guess Gus is the alpha male right now, except Gus knows that I am HIS boss. Gus minds very well. The pup does not stay in the goat pen because my 3yo doe will beat him to a pulp if he doesn't keep his distance. She has decked him a few times. They aren't used to dogs in with them. He doesn't play like this with the older kids either. It's just the small, baby he wants to play so rough with. The older kids butt him or kick him, or run behind the older girls who will slam him to the ground. He doesn't chase the cattle or the horse. I don't mind when I'm petting him if he licks me, but that mouth and teeth have to stay off me and he can't grab my clothes and pull at them either. I give him his bone to chew or one of the other non-stuffed toys I got him. No stuffed toys to tear up all over the yard, especially since I have stuffed chair cushions on my nice lawn furniture; and he minds me whenn I tell him not to chew on my cushions. They stay outside all the time and are still intact after his being here for 3 weeks. This is NOT his toy to chew. He's always trying to walk in front of me and trip me, but I just kick him (not hard) aside and move past him to where I am going. He sometimes bugs a large doe from behind which I am walking on her collar. I really get after him for that. This is just NOT acceptable behavior. He will leave the goats alone when I am training them. I'll tie him up while I work with them if he doesn't stop it. This is something new today. We'll see tomorrow if he got the hint. He's a really smart dog. But he's got a lot of puppy energy. I throw an old frisbee for him to go chase and hew on to spend some of that energy. 

I have to get the upper hand on this dog, because he's going to be very large and he HAS 
to mind me, period! :twisted


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## dvm-mommy (Feb 5, 2009)

doublebowgoats said:


> If you can't catch it, no, if you have to even try to catch it instead of it just coming to you, well, it hacks me off to no end!


Completely agree Michelle!! And our Sasha is like that...you can do anything with her once caught but she was dam raised...and then on top of that, not socialized to humans properly...so she seems to play "keep away"...grrrrrrr...... :mad
Now Snowflake (the goofy Saanen) will come readily to you...we even use her as our "hiking buddy" as she will go into the 50 acres of woods behind us to hike and she stays *right* beside you. But try to do something that hurts, and you have quite the hand-ful of trying to calm her down. She is just a plain scaredy-cat! And speaking of cats...if you ever figure out the trick to get any cat to consistently come when it is called, you let me know :rofl


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Linda, 

you recognized correctly that walking in front of you means that he is taking charge. My pup is 14 weeks and he minds all of this and has now for a long time. I haven't done any training with him just asserted myself heavily as an alpha (not necessarily physically, but posture, body language, etc. ). He will follow me very closely at the heel but just a tad behind me, not lined up with me. He comes when I call him. He does not bother me or the goats when he is not asked to give me attention . I ask for a small lick on a nose (some are bigger lickers than others) here and there , also an alpha thing. 

You are right, the pup understands that your other dog is above him. HE still thinks now it's a toss between you and him and the things you wrote about are challenges for a pack order. Pack order changes all the time, in natural settings every time the pack reunites, such as returning from a hunt, the pack order is re-evaluated. So even if he got to accept you as an alpha now it's not a permanent status. You need to constantly present yourself as an alpha and he does not get to do anything unless invited. 

I would not have him around the little kids at all if he is rough with them. Getting beat up from an older doe is not necessarily a bad thing, if he has a place to escape. He needs to be put in place. Do you have him as an LGD? If he is not with the goats to bond with them, he will not perform for you as an LGD. LGDs instinctively protect the herd because they consider them pack mates. When they are pups they are below in the pack order but as they grow up they become the Alpha's (even though they are never allowed to harm the livestock) in the pack (Beta when it comes to submitting to you) and do what the alpha does - provide protection. 
If they are not bonded, they will not do this. If he is bonding with you, he will protect you but not the livestock. Was he purchased as a companion or working dog? Because by now he should know what is acceptable and what is not. He will get big very quickly, already a pup this size can knock down a small child. I have a 6 year old son who is able to be in the pen by himself and is not challenged by the pup. 

I am sure the breeder you purchased from will be happy to give you some guidance, if you would like some links for further reading on establishing (and keeping) alpha status, I would be happy to share my sources with you. 

To the OP< sorry for the hijack of the post. Sorry your goat gave you hard time. My kids call it the "rodeo" around here. I, however, get rid of animals who are difficult to handle and just keep the easy keepers. Not letting them win works so they figure out that it's going to happen whether they fight it or not. Some are just more stubborn than others. 

Jana


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Oh, I think DVM Mommy has probably had to deal with this in practice more than we realize and is aware.

I don't have another LGD.

Sure, PM me or email me with all kinds of LGD training stuff. I'd welcome it. The horse even knows he doesn't walk in front of me when I'm leading him. Yesterday and today he seems to be falling into his pack order. He stays out of my walking space. He hasn't come to ask to be petted until I called him and he did not put his mouth on me! I sat in my lawn chair totally unmolested last night! dance: I don't have any children, just goat kids. It's the baby he wants toplay so rough with. the big does don't accept her yet either. I ought to shut him in with the big girls. I wanted him mainly to watch the house and barn areas, not necessarily to follow the goats. At night raccoons were carrying us off. I also want him to go with ME if I have to walk the fenceline through our cougar infested woods. Because when a steer escapes we have to walk them and find the place where it got out and fix it. I have a gun, but a gun doesn't warn you if there is something amiss. A dog will. Plus, I don't usually carry a gun anyway. He does have room to escape the smash zone of the big does. It might be a good plan to put him in there. I have to keep my baby kid apart most of the time anyway. The does don't protect her yet, only Ellsie and Gracie. They will accept her later, if things go as they usually do. I feed the herd queen's pasteurized milk to the baby. They begin to smell their own milk coming through the kid and eventually accept the kid as belonging to the herd. That has been my experience anyway. It's Tanya's pasteurized milk I'm feeding her. Tanya had 3 black bucklings. She goes and sniffs at Hot Chick and it's as if you can hear her thining. "You're black like one of my kids, you sort of smell like one of my kids, but something just isn't quite right here", so she shoves her away. Ellsie likes Hot chick though, and she sleeps withher since I took Legolas away from her for "talking the love talk" to the little girls. :crazy I'm trying to transition him nearer the adult buck to get him to mature faster.

I know lots of you have great results feeding whole cow's milk to your babies (I've done it myself), but you ought to see the way my two older Nubian kids are growing being fed pasteurizes Nubian milk!!!!! They are both a couple of hosses!!!!! Not fat hosses, just LARGE hosses! Gracie isn't growing as fast, though she is older. But she comes fron a line of does who start slow and bloom late, and I am not giving her bottles. Her ff mom doesn't let her nurse so much milk as she would be getting if I was bottle feeding her. Just you wait. It won't be long until Hot chick is a hoss too.

I just went out and sat in my chair. Pup came up and wanted petting. I shoved him away 3 times and he went to lie down. After he laid there a couple of minutes I caled him and petted him and let him touch noses with me. He didn't put his mouth on my arm, though I could tell he was dying to. I told him he was a good boy and when I was done petting him I shoved him away again and he went back and laid down. YAY!!!!! I told you he is a smart dog. Theresa, I am so glad you let me have him. I love him. I wish I'd have gotten two of them sometimes, but then maybe two of them would ust keep each other company and they'd ignore the stock altogether then. He's such a smart dog. She has puppies left you guys. Go get one from her. They're healthy and smart!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And your more then welcome to keep this thread going and we can morph it into info on raising LGD correctly. Perhaps Camille will chime in also. Vicki


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Cool. :cool My doggy tried to get my doe as I was leading her again today. I smacked him over on his side and he backed off. Is he jealous or what is his deal? Does he think I have prey and he's helping? We had another dog that did this and when I kicked him away (as my hands were sort of busy) he bit me. He even jumped up and bit at my face once. That dog is gone. He chased cattle and drowned some of my baby goats when I had boers. He would not mind anyone but my husband and my extra large son, who was the alpha male. He bit me. He was gone. He was a mutt who was half rotweiler. We were told by the owner that her dog had been bred by a German Shepherd. I like German shepherds. It was soon evident that this was nothing akin to a German shepherd. His wide head and chest and big mouth full of teeth soon gave him away as he grew. Then she admitted that her bitch may have gotten with a rotweiler. I wouldn't have taken it if I'd known. Somebody just offered us a lab/pit bull mix. I said NO thanks.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Smacking is not a dog like activity. You must treat him as a momma dog would.
Scruff him until his back feet barely touch the ground and hold him there until he totally relaxes. Let him down and make him look at you and tell him you would like him to stop that. Eye contact is serious business in the dog world.

He knows. He is just testing you. You should not kick or hit or do anything to a dog that another dog would not do. They do not comprehend and so do not know how to react except for continuing to do what it was that you tried to stop AND avoid the punishment by dashing out of range.

We used to raise personal protection dogs- Rotts are fabulous animals. 
There are very few truly bad dogs- their behavior is molded (and warped) by people.
L


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Most of the time this dog was great. He was the most excellent gaurd dog! Nobody came up to our house at night or day that we didn't want here. As soon as we told him it was ok, he'd go lie down or be friendly. Just when I was working with the goats he would attack their rump. I had boers, so I had them by the horns to control them. And at 100 plus pounds he was a little large and too old for the alpha bitch treatment. Actually it was the alpha bitch thing, looking him in the eye and trying to hold him by his collar and saying no to him that got me bitten on the face. He asserted his alpha male on me.

Now my new pup I can do that with. I didn't kick him or really smack him with a hand, I just sort of shoved him off his feet and forced him to roll over on his side. I had hold of a doe who doesn't want to walk with me anyway and the dog made it twice as hard, as she was trying to maybe walk with me but stay away from the dog.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Hey,, I like this grabbing him by the scruff of the neck and growling at him! Very effective! He's turning into such a nice doggy. :biggrin

Now my MIL knows for sure that I'm crazy though. I raise goats and I growl at my dog. She's about to have me commited y'all. :rofl


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

I have a littermate to Linda's dog and he is a doll but I only interact with him when I am in the goat pen. Otherwise he is on his own with the goats. Trots along behind me while I do my chores. He seems to really like my DH which is weird since DH is terrified of all dogs but he seems to like the LGD. I see a doe butt him every once in awhile. He rolls over on his side and they walk off. I think he is doing what he is supposed to do according to what I have read. He can get away from the large goats by going into the kid pen (creep feeder type pen). He keeps his chew toys in there so I guess he knows it is a safe zone.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

The dog jumping at the goat and then jumping at you sounds like initiating play and trying to challenge. Getting pushed off and jumping back may seem fun to him. Watch early mornings and evenings, the pups are full of energy and need to vent it somehow. Mine will pester the goats most at these time. Provide an alternative. He is a pup and needs to vent this, he also needs to chew on something. The need for play is a strong one, usually it is not provided for an LGD penned with his herd (mine compensates on the cat and the cat seems to like it). I play with him to provide this, play is a learning tool and is important. They get to learn what is acceptable and what is not, what bite is too hard, testing their own strength and their herd position. 

Why is he with you when you try to accomplish a task that he is or can be a nuisance in? I would not have the dog around livestock if I don't have full control of him or have him on leash. 
You may want to elevate your livestock above him for now and give them higher herd position. 

Please give us more info on your routine, and the dog's routine. does he accompany you to barn chores? When does he see the livestock? Does he think or was he made believe these are to play with?

I don't believe the behavior is prey driven. Pups do this to adult dogs or humans trying to initiate play. He can pester anything below his position in the herd, but needs to wait for initiation or invitation by anyone above him. Any pestering or unwanted behavior needs to be 
ignored or corrected, with consistence. Shaking scruff, lifting off their feet are very effective. They know they are being disciplined when this happens. 

Also, many people make the mistake that they expect the LGD just by being a breed that has great intuition knows what to do. Nothing's further from the truth. It seems like the pup is around too many situations where he is not exactly sure what is expected, what is allowed,e etc. 

You said you want your dog to be a farm guardian, not specifically with livestock. If purebred Pyr, they have different mentality than Anatolians. The pyr will stay with the flock and will protect it first by leading them to safety, second by barking loudly or chasing predators away, thirdly killing if the first two do not prove effective, then return to the herd. Anatolians do not stay as closely with the herd, in a large pasture they will most likely be found in a spot where they can oversee the land and watch out for potential danger. They don't lead the stock to safety, but prevent predators from getting near them. These are better suited for farm and property guardians. If you have a mixed pup, you can have some of both or strong leaning towards one or other style. But they don't know all you expect them to do. If left with stock and not handled, they consider the stock their herd and will protect them just like they would a dog pack. Any dog raised with a group of animals would do this, but you need the low prey drive that these dogs were bred for to successfully achieve it. It is based solely on the bonding. 

What I am saying is that your dog may possess the qualities to guard your farm, including the livestock but he needs to understand they are to be guarded. If not done by bonding instinct, it will need to be taught by training just like any other dog. They don't just "know" what you want him to do. 

Often we jump ahead of ourselves and don't have a defined job description of what we want the dog to do but we expect them to know just what it is. Teaching what NOT to do or what is not accepted is a good start. But what do you WANT your dog to do. Do you want him to assist you with farm chores and instinctively guess where his help is needed? This would be a job better suited for an English shepherd, farm collie, etc. If you want an overall farm dog, the LGD may work or he may not. These animals were bred to stay with livestock, even many have proven themselves as multi purpose but this differs from individual to individual. 

Jana


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

LaNell, 

it sounds like your pup is coming along very nicely. Getting put in place by the older does definitely helps. Watch for the teenage years, from about 6 months to 2 years, ughhh. Mine does the same thing, when I am in the pen, he does not get underfoot unless asked, lies patiently next to the milk stand waiting for his milk and then still comes to keep me company. 
Working on a recall in the pen area is a good start. If he minds you in a small area he is more likely to extend that. These pups get huge, so a good recall is a must, otherwise they are a liability. Mine used to ignore me in the pen. Now he knows he can't ignore me when called and slowly and surely gets to react and obey even under distraction. 

Jana


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Agreed on the Anatolians- they are terrific all around guards and always want 'up' to survey. The goats run TO the dogs now if there is any disturbance and key off the behavior of the dogs. They do however bark and run at the fences when horses and kids on 4 wheelers go by which the goats are used to now but they at first thought this was time to panic.

Don't know how I lived without them...except for the fact that -believe it or not our Dobermans behaved the same way. They loved the goats and guarded them- just did not stay with the herd as they moved. We are partially wooded so ours stay in the shade while the goats are out in the meadows but within view always.

Recall was very difficult with this breed- they want to make their own decisions so you have to train them without taking that ability away from them. It took a long while and when we had just about despaired on ever teaching them that- bingo- they acted like it was their idea and are very reliable now. They want to supervise everything that happens in their space. A very hilarious trait at times. 
Lee


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Theresa said both parents of the pup are half Anatolian and halp PYR. I milk in the morning and bottle feed kids. He doesn't get in the way, he just follows me. He likes to lick at the bottles when the kids are drinking because they drip. This distracts the kids from drinking. He's learning I don't want him to do this. I will come out to just sit on the porch to be with the dog several times during the day, even though it is so HOT. He does not sleep in the barn and I want him to. He sleeps on the front porch or under my bedroom window. I feed bottles in the middle of the day, same thing, the dog wants to lick. I go into the goat pen and work with my young does, training them to lead and stand, etc... He usually stays outside the pen, he's afraid of the older does. Sometimes I bring one outside in the driveway to work with her or him. He is learning that I don't want him to interfere when I have hold of a goat. The scruff of the neck trick works! I want him to go lie down and just wait, then I'll play with him later. When I first go out I make him stay away fromme until he does it voluntarily. Then I call him to me and touch nones, as you said, and I pet him and love on him and tell him what a good boy he is. I have some toys for him to chew. when he tries to chew on my arm I give him a thing he is allowed to chew. I do this any time I catch him chewing anything that is not his to chew on. My lawn furniture is still in perfect shape. :biggrin I have one doe who balks a lot when I take her to the milk stand. My milk stand is on my screened-in porch. It's the best place I have for it. He wanted to play with her when I was taking her to milk, and she doesn't want to go anyway. she's a ff with one kid on her. She's slowly learning and he is too, that when I have hold of a goat you stay back. With the older doe I let go of her and let her deck him a couple of times. He keeps his distance from her. We're slowly falling into routine. I throw a frisbee and a ball for him a couple of times a day and play chase with him, because he won't bring the ball back. I don't care. I don't want him to fetch. I do want him to come when called, especially if people come over. I want him to sit and lie down when I tell him to, and I would like him to bond with the goats too. He has the younger ones, but the older does, no way. they whack him. I go out after dark and sit on the porch and pet him for an hour or so. I would like to be able to take him to the garage (next to the house and the barn) where the feed is stored and get him to sleep there. A few raccoons have still come in and are now eating HIS food. They learned to knock the lid off a 55 gallon drum to get his food.

It's milking time now.

Need to know anything else?


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Linda, 

he is bonded with YOU, he wants to be as close to the house as possible. He will not do any guarding unless at least 6 months old. At this point, you will probably not see him bark , etc. If at age 6 months, your other dog still has the alpha status among the two of them, the pup will NOT guard and leave that to the alpha. The alpha gets all the privileges but also all the responsibility. 

I don't mean for this to sound negative (believe me, I have made my mistakes) but it helps a whole lot to learn about LGD training before getting a puppy. Right now you are playing a little catch up. It's not too late to learn but you need to learn quick before you send the wrong cues to the pup and they will be hard to undo. A great dog with great potential can be a huge blessing or a huge headache. He will not be fully trained or working until at least 2 years of age, more likely 3 years. Large breeds mature slowly and go through a horrible (all dogs do but with the big ones it seems even more so since you can't scoop them up to your arms and MAKE them do it, ha !) teenage stage where you think they forgot to do whatever you taught them. Then they outgrow it and usually have a turn for the better. 

Consistent and confident training is a must. If you are not sure what you are doing (again, I have been there, done that, learned the hard way) you cannot be confident. The dog knows this as he reads your body language and assesses your leadership qualities. The older he gets the more he will consider himself a better candidate for the alpha position. Possibly rightly so, again, you need to learn FAST. 

Read up on ES training, this is a breed that needs extremely strong leaders and I have found the training info very helpful and applicable to LGD's. 

Since he is bonded with you , he considers himself as part of your pack, he will be sleeping close to your house. That's normal. If he considers (seems like you are working on your status) you the alpha then he will be relying on your protection and stay close for that reason , at least as long as he is little. You will not find out how effectively he is going to guard your family and your farm until he gets to be that age. For a pup that stays with livestock, important bonding takes place during this time that will enhance the guarding ability. I am afraid your pup has already bonded to you and considers you the pack. He would be miserable with the livestock, at least for a while. The only interaction he has is with you so he will want to be with you. 

Don't get me wrong, I have a Anatolian cross (mixed with something non LGD, probably bluetick coonhound) and she is a fantastic guard dog. She knows the perimeter of our property and nothing gets in. She was never with the livestock until 2 years old but by then she was very well trained and bomb proof. She looks to me for cues what I want her to do and what not. If you would like a dog like that I can help you train. but you can't expect the behavior to be part guarding dog protecting you and your belongings and part LGD that is bonded to the stock. If your dog is bonded to you ( and he already is) he will not perform like LGD brought up with livestock. They cannot be trained to do this, they protect based on instinct and the responsibility of the alpha. 

My pup has never been in the house, he was with the goats and handled in the pen only. New puppy should be placed with stock just a bit tougher than he is. He may outgrow that stock or their toughness fast, so they need to be re-matches when the need arises. Mine is with my herd queen because he was chasing my other milker's udder. He is with her at night and with the rest of the herd (I only have 4 goats) at night. He is very content with the goats and considers them his. If I let the queen free range, he will stay with her. He still has a desire to be with my adult dog, so I try to limit that exposure until his bonding with the livestock gets stronger and he should attack her down the road if she enters the pen and he considers her danger to the goats. that's how strong the bonding is. When I am outside, pup sees me through the fence, but won't even bother to get up - he raises his head and watches me do my thing in the yard but is not trying to get out of the pen to be with me. For one, I am the alpha and I am free to come and go as I please. Second, he is perfectly content with the goats. He freaks out when I take my queen and leave him. He wants to go where she goes. At night, the queen is there to protect the herd, until he grows up , then he will take over that job.

He did not always know not to meddle. I used to have a crate in the barn where I did my milking and if he was a bother, I put him in there. I never did give him any attention while I was doing my chores, until I was done. He did get the milk from the first few streaks testing for problems. He got food while I was milking to distract. Now he sits patiently next to the milk stand. He got to watch me from the crate a few times, then I would let him out, if he was bothering me or the goats, he went back to the crate. This take a while but they are smart and learn quickly. If you behave you get your milk. If you misbehave, you go to crate. It's not rocket science for them. I have enough to do to mess with pesky pup while doing chores. 

In your situation I would give him milk while you bottle feed. He absolutely considers the babies at his level (a puppy) or lower. In his head he should get milk when they do. It's too tempting and you are setting up to fail to teach him not to do that. I try not to punish for something that is natural for them to do. There is food there and you are feeding the pack, but he does not get any. I don't think he understands it. Connecting the time spent around goats with something very pleasant, like a bowl full of milk will help him associate the goats with pleasant things. IF goats get food and he doesn't , it may trigger resentment. 

Teaching too many things at the same time is confusing. I also would not train a goat and pup at the same time. I train my pup around proven milkers and my milkers around dogs who know the drill. Everything else will cause you hassle. Work on one thing at a time. LGD's (and especially Anatolians) don't do well with long drills, etc. They were bred to intuitively use their instincts and to be trained only to provide basic control of the animal. He is not attacking your livestock, that's a plus. I don't know your set up but this is what I would try until I had that routine down. Walk pup into the area where you will be milking/feeding milk (is it the same area??), tie him down and give him a bowl of dog food or milk (or both). Go get your doe to milk or feed your babies. Again, I woudl need more details how this is set up and how you do this.
For the first week I would do all your chores while he is on the leash so he knows you don't need him there. eventually I would just walk him (on the leash) to the area and let him eat off the leash. He should be done eating when your doe is already on the milk stand. Please make sure the goats don't bother him while eating, he will protect the food and be naturally aggressive, it's not his fault. If you have to use a crate, use that. Once you are milking, if he is done eating, he is pestering you or goat or not doing what you want, ignore him for a while, or sternly say NO. If this does not work, back to the crate or leash. 

You cannot constantly be shaking his scruff either, or it will lose effectiveness. So eliminate the distractions or areas you think will make him misbehave to limit the discipline. THere is also a range of discipline depending on the level of offense. You can look away and not make eye contact. You can stand up and walk away. You can leash or crate him. For more serious offenses, lift his body off the ground and look him straight in the eye and say very sternly with deep growl like voice NO. For very serious offense roll him, spit in his mouth and make sure he knows if he does this again he is dead meat. This I would limit to seriously harming livestock. 

Also, you cannot punish or discipline for something he does not know he is not supposed to do. If he is trained (and only after he is trained to come to you) you can discipline for not obeying. But during training I try to direct a lot and punish little.

I use AAACCCK ! a lot. It's not a stern NO that I have to enforce and follow up on if not, it's a suggestion saying "I would not do that if I was you" and it works very well. It is a warning and I use it once or twice and then follow up. If you wanted the pup to come and he did not , you don't have to run over to him and shake his scruff. You just go retrieve him and make him do what you were asking him. Show him not listening is not an option. Don't over do, one thing at a time, and in short impulses and with treats works. Can't punish for expectations that he quite cannot deliver yet, like not guarding ,etc. 

Your incident with the other goat you were struggling with, I bet looked like play, you were already in his mind "playing" (not hunting down) with the goat and he was joining in. 

I suppose that outside of the LGD and alpha training, you do know how to train a dog to sit, come, lie down, stay and follow at heel. It's no shame if you don't , lots of people take dogs to classes, but it's no rocket science either, especially if you get the alpha down. 

I hope this helps some.

Jana


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

ES training? Other than that, I understand all that you have said. And yes, I realize that he is just a pup and I can't expect him to obey things he doesn't understand yet or too many commands and then punish him when he doesn't do it. Thanks for the idea about the milk at bottle time.  Great idea. I never thought of him as just another one of my kids and he wants his too. I'll give him a bowl of milk too. He loves milk. He does bark at animals. I think as he gets older he will fill that job as well as any dog. My other dog is in the house most of the time, so he isn't exposed to him unless it's potty time for the small rattie. We do sit out together at night and I just let pup and Gus work out who is going to be boss. Pup seems to be realizing he is much larger than Gus and so is Gus. It is really ok if the dog is bonded with me instead of my goats, but I hope that he will have a larger awareness one day of the whole property and just let me know if anything is not right nearby home. We've had dogs that do this. His dog house will be situated inside the garage where he will be out of the rain and the cold north winds and has a plain view right into the doe house. The near side of the garage is no more than 15 to 20 feet from my bedroom window. The far side is another 40 feet away and where the doe barn begins. Just watching the house and farm and warning me of danger, but minding me when someone comes over whom I want there to go lie down or be friendly, is what I want him to do in a few years. I do know that it takes them at lest 2 years to mature. 

What I don't want is for him to bond so much with the goat herd that he won't allow our cattle or horse in the same pasture with them. We had a purebred PYR before and he ran our cattle through the fences. We had to give him to someone with goats and no cattle, and that task in itself was monumental. We had to trap him like a wild animal. My MIL was constantly in fear of this big dog, but in reality she would never have gotten close enough to him unless she tried to touch one of the goats. That was another problem because she feeds the goats for me when DH and I both have to be gone for a day. No body but I could go into the pasture with the goats, and he shyly allowed me to touch him. If he'd been injured we couldn't have handled him and when he needed shots he bit my hands to the bone. Someone had told us to not make a pet of him, leave him with the goats, feed him with the goats and not bother him. But I did try to make friends with him. He barely trusted me, and no other. He took his job very seriously and went anywhere his charges went. You'd find him lying in the shade not far from them and never out of his vision. My DH was barked at in the pasture but not threatened with bodily harm when the dog saw that he was not heading toward the goats. He did try to make friends with the dog also, with less sucess. I am the main caretaker of the animals, and I fed the goats and the dog. He would bark at me when I came toward the goats until he saw that it was me, then he would wag his tail and allow me to pet him and touch the goats.

I would rather have a dog I can handle, whom I can keep under control when friends are here but who will alert me when someone or something is not right on the farm. And if he sleeps in the garage where the feed all is, the raccoons will stop coming in there within a year or so. I need him to not play roughly with children or just ignore them, as I have grandchildren who visit occasionally and 2 young nephews. Lets face it, I am a woman alone here on this property almost all the time. At night my DH is home sleeping. The rest of the time, he's gone. We live on a backroad on the way back to town from a local bar. There is a curve where many accidents happen right next to us. Or sometimes people "run out of gas" and we find them at 2am wandering through our garage "looking for a can of gas." Our eqipment shed (for the tractor, etc...) is a quarter mile up the road, with tools (many of which we have moved out of there because they "walk off" from up tere, and a tank of red diesel for the tractor. Any fool who puts that in their gas tank deserves what they get, but there are many diesel pick-ups around here; though it is a huge fine if you're caught with red diesel in your pick-up. The big barn is in full sight of our house but we can't watch it all night. If the dog will consider this as part of his farm and bark any time someone is up there that would be great. And I also have to run off fishermen who have not gotten permission to come fish in our ponds. I'd like the dog to ride along in the truck with me to do this. We don't mind allowing folks to fish. We just want them to ask first. We like to know who is on the place and when. There has been a rash of drug-related crimes in the countryside the last several years. I have guns and am a crack shot, but would rather not use them and don't carry one with me around the farm. I have enhanced 911. If I have time to get to the house and dial it, I will. My daughter is also frightened to death because I like to go walking in the moonlight alone. I like to go swiming in our lovely pond in the full moonlight. Cougars have been sighted locally by several people and we've even found tracks of a cat with a paw print wider than my hand by the muddy little pond on the back of our place. A couple of people have been attacked, but not severely injured. If the dog goes wherever I go my daughter will feel better about my midnight wanderings. As for myself, I'm more afraid of 2 legged predators. My DD just did 2 Summer hitches at Yellowstone where you always have to check in every direction before you leave a building just in case any large animal is nearby. It's THEIR home.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Great stuff Jana- have you written a book in all your spare time?
L


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

I am sorry, ES is an English Shepherd, also called the Farm Collie . If I can only dig up the website. 

Jana


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Is that the same thing as an Anatolian? He has the extra dew claws like a PYR, and the light cream color down his back like an Anatoloan. He's very pretty. I just love those dark eyes and black nose in all that white hair.

Yes, much good information. I have a kennel he still fit into. I can shut him in while I am training my kids for show. This is serius business for the kids and there needs to be no distractions from a dog. He can watch from his kennel with his bone to knaw on. He has done better with my balky ff milker. I still may kennel him if he does a repeat. This is serious training for my ff and she needs to feel safe as I lead her to the milk stand and I have to make being milked a pleasant experience for her. Already she seems to realize that getting that tight half of her udder emptied makes her feel better. She does not relax enough to eat her grain though. She's too worried about her kid back in the barn. I can't put my milk stand in the barn. I don't want so many flies around while I'm milking. I must lead my does through the yard (puppy territory) to the screened-in porch. I have Quick Bayt out for flies but as many as are killed, more just keep coming. I sure miss my chickens. The pup has started to want to play with my one remaining hen, but I think it is because she flees from him. If she wouldn't I have a feeling he would ignore her. She is still alive because she's smart enough to outrun and hide from predators though. All the rest are dead now. I will work on a stern NO if I catch him actually chasing her. Right now I think it's mostly just curiosity and boredom. I do try to play with him as often as I can. I do NOT LIKE even play biting when playing. I start to ignore him or shove him away when he does it and he goes and chews one of his legal chew toys. My arms are not legal chew toys. :biggrin I bruise so easily. Man, I'm getting old lady skin. :lol I don't mind holding his chew toy and letting him knaw it while we're playing though. I don't believe my older little dog will keep his alpha position much longer. But Gus is ok with the pup as long as he gets to be the dog who comes indoors and sleeps at the foot of my bed. He's even begun playing with the pup like a puppy. He's loving it, because Gus likes to use his teeth on me to, and he's so old he's set in his ways.

I want to know how to calmly keep this dog's nails trimmed. Start now and show him it's no big deal? Like stating to trim hooves on your little goats? I have to take Gus to the vet to be sedated for his nail trimmings. He bites if you even lift his paw to look at his feet. He's very touchy. I adopted him from ASPCA and he came with nails so long the quick was nearly to the tip of them. It threw off his foot to stand back on the balls of his feet, because his nails were so long. Most dogs get enough exercise that their nails don't need trimming as often and Gus' do. He doesn't partol the farm. But he can hear the raccons inside the house with the windows shut and a fan running and wants to go out the give chase. I was hoping if the pup saw Gus "playing" at chasing the raccoon, he might think it's a fun game too. Gus even treed one on the electric pole and kept it there long enough for me to get my shotgun and take care of that racoon. Alas, I forgot that Gus is deathly afraid of gunfire, fireworks, thunder and less so, even popping a buble with a piece of bubble gum.

How do I teach the pup not to be afraid of gun fire and loud noises? That would be a plus, if he will scare up raccoons and we find them, we will shoot them. We especially will shoot any armadillo on sight. They dig such cavernous holes that a horse or steer can break a leg in one. Goats are too surefooted. They rarely get hurt in this manner or by falling. Not that I have ever seen anyway. Plus, we do some target shooting now and then. I don't want him to be afraid of the noise.

I have been using that trick of ignoring him or shoving him away once or twice when I first go out until he goes to lie down. Then I call him to me and he gives my nose a small lick and we bond. I pet him as long as he's a good boy, and he's learning how to be a good boy, and then just begin ignoring him again when I'm done petting or playing with him. If he misbehaves when I'm petting him I begin ignoring him or I shove him away and he goes to chew on his toys. Or I will deprive him of my presence by coming in the house. That's how I train my bucks to be such big babies. I pet them....yeah I know, yuck....and as long as he stands perfectly still and doesn't start acting up I stay. If he starts the tongue wagging, the love talk or anything else obnoxious I just walk away and deprive them of mommy. Of course during rut, this stops, as they are just crazy then. :crazy


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Linda, 

that sounds like a good plan. I think the pup will readily do anything but sleep in the barn unless the Anatolian kicks in and it will seem like a good watch spot. My Adrianne is like what you describe you are looking for in a dog. 

To define territory, take pup for a walk around your property fence lines daily. Leash him up and tie the leash to your belt. If you want him to be your protector, it is good he is bonding with you. Adrianne is never with the the goats, yet all my critters are safe at night because nothing gets to come here. She is up all night running things off the property and it is working.
She is not bonded to any of my livestock but understands they are important to me and she is to treat them nicely and protect them. SHe could easily rip into the rabbit cages at night and have a tasty snack. She won't do it. She lives to please me. 

Back to the pup. Once he stops harassing you with mouthing and jumping and things like that and learns that your space has to be respected unless you invite him, tie him to your belt and do all the chores with him like that (if possible). Now milking, but possibly feeding, checking fences, etc and definitely do the perimeter check so he knows the boundaries and what he is supposed to protect. If you have other animals, like cattle, etc, socialize him with them, walk around their pasture so he gets to see what's normal and what not. 

You don't have to do anything else right now but keep establishing your alpha position, have the pup be around (but not necessarily in the middle of) your chores and daily routine, so he understands what's normal. Socialize him with all the animals on your property, he does not have to have contact with them, but be able to observe them from the pasture/fence, etc. to understand they are part of the pack and he is to protect them. 

Absolutely do NOT socialize him with people outside of your family or other dogs if you want him to protect you effectively. It is hard to do in the age of dogs being comanions only and not working, but your rattie seems to fill that role well for you and keeps you company in the house. I socialized Adriane and now she will protect from predators and alert me about humans but won't protect from them. They will mimic what you do, so if people are allowed to come and go during the day, that will seem normal to them. Some are more aloof with strangers and with some it depends on the level of socialization during puppy years. Working dog performs best as a working dog and not a pet. He is a pet to the family and can be loved on and played with, but I don't allow strangers to handle/pet/boss my dog around. You may have a friend or family that help around the farm and you rely on them to help when you are gone. Socialize him to these people and show him it's ok if they are here. 

I have no dogs rule on my property. I think it's hard for the dog to tell a difference between a dog visiting with company and a stray coming to chase your goats to death. Adrianne used to be absolutely vicious towards any strange dogs when we got her but has become very soft once socialized. I am not making that mistake with the LGD pup. Even at the vet, we go when there are only few folks there and stand away from everyone and he has no interest to get attention from people or visit with the dogs. 

ONce you have recall command (such as It's OK or ENOUGH) it will not be a problem. The dog will alert you to anyone coming to the farm and behave in a way they will not consider crossign the fence without you there. Then it will be up to you to recall the dog or say, sorry, my dog is trained to protect the property to folks you really don't want coming in and don't recall. As long as the dog cannot get to them UNLESS they enter your property , you are safe and not liable. A dog trained like this with access to the road is a liability. 

One annoying feature about LGD's is barking. In a pack, the other dogs merely inform the alpha about a danger and then look to him/her for cues. The alpha decides when to bark, what to bark at, etc. if the alpha is not present, the beta takes over the charge. So, at night when I am asleep, Adrianne chooses what to bark at and runs it off at her will. During the day she will bark once or twice, look towards the door or window, she knows she alerted me and lets me decide what I want to do. I knock on the window if I want her to back off or stop barking and she stops. LOL, it took a lot of knocking on a window and sore knuckles. I used to know, then go outside and tell her to stop. 

They also like to bark at visitors at the gate while you are trying to talk to them. If you want your dog to stop barking, use a signal , such as ENOUGH. They need to respect your alpha position and stop right after they alerted you. In a pack, no dog would get away with this without getting a good roll. If dog does not stop, shake scruff and growl EEENNOUGH. You can also put a hand around their muzzle (from the top closing your hand down) and hold it until they get quiet. Don't praise if they do, just let go. 

If you don't need the pup to "assist" you with your chores, he really does not need to be there, he can wait outside the pen, pasture, etc. until you do what you need to do. Adrianne is safe around my livestock but she does not get to come in on most occasions. There is just no need. She is right outside waiting. 

See, now , English shepherd, if properly trained, can get your next doe lined up for the milk stand while you are letting the first one off, keep the goats out of your way when you try to put feed in the feeder, or hold them away from the gate as you try to come in, etc. The behavior is based on a higher prey drive and herding instincts that the LGD does not have. A farm collie can be a great helper with any chore you do. LGD is to guard and he can guard outside while you do chores and wait until you move to the next post. 

Adrianne will come and visit with me when I am outside but unless I specifically request she stays with me or does something specific, she will soon walk off to her high spot to watch over the yard. I have not done anything special with her other than alpha enforcement, have her walk next to me (leash or no leash) and AAACCCKKK her back to her place if she crossed her boundary (got ahead of me). I gave her commands and rewarded with a treat if she did them. Slowly weaned off the treats. 

During the day while pup is at training, make sure your body language always speaks alpha, walk slow and tall, never let pup walk through a gate or a door before you do, when petting him, put your head over his shoulders (dominant position), or stand above him so he is between your legs (while he still fits, ha ! Another dominant position). Anytime the LGD pup , even accidentally, gets on Adrianne's back, he gets the teeth, ha ! So when your LGD accepts you to do this , he is acknowledging your position as an alpha and you are asserting yourself as an alpha at the same time. has to be done frequently, like I said, pack order changes very frequently, and anytime the pack gets reunited, positions are re-evaluated. Who is the boss now? Is the old boss still a boss? Is there a new boss? Have I moved up in my position because I am bigger?

Your big challenge will be small children. Your LGD will soon know that he is bigger and more mature than they are and by regular order of things, should be dominant to them. However, if you give them special privileges the pup does not have, and treat him like a grizzly momma whenever he challenges them, he will get the picture. 

I can't believe I forgot eating. Eating is the biggest part of pack order. The alpha eats first as much as he wants and the others sit and wait. We mess it up for the dogs that we feed multiple dogs all at the same time. My alpha gets ballistic running from bowl to bowl and charging the others away from it until she is done eating. In nature, it just does not work that way, alpha eats first, then beta, etc. the little ones eat last if they eat at all. The pups are not essential for the survival of the pack, the alpha is. 

Keep reassuring him of your position daily by eating in front of him before he gets fed. Don't leave food out 24/7, it takes away a valuable tool you have in feeding time. You can easily 
establish the grandchildren as higher in the pecking order by feeding them first. Some dogs (especially large) may challenge the kids to the food, since they don't understand why the order is this way and smaller and younger "pups" get to eat before he does. You can have the older kids help feed him and bring food to him and they can also eat a piece of something or chew gum before they put the bowl of food down. Pup should not be jumping , but sitting patiently until he is fed. Jumping pup does not get his bowl until he settles down. 

While eating in front of your dog, don't make eye contact, pretend like he is not even there and look in a different direction. the more royal you can get yourself to act, the stronger alpha body language it sends to the pup. Adrianne walks herself like she is walking the runway, waving her rear from side to side, head high and nose pointed up, lol. But it sends a very powerful message. Slow, royal like motions, acting like pup is not there when reuniting with him (coming out of the door in the am, getting out of the car upon arrival, etc.) When the alpha returns he stands tall and gives attention to no one. then when he is ready, everyone gives attention to him. 

Dogs who are pets and live at home get a confusing message day in and day out, when owners come home and fuss over it, they are elevating him to an alpha position and the dogs end up with behavior problems like begging for food, pestering company, pushing for attention, etc. The thing to remember is that the alpha is not a permanent , not even a long term job. Alpha can get killed during the hunt, challenged by another male/female (dogs usually have an alpha pair), so is the pecking order in the pack. It constantly changes so to the pup who waits at home and then gets fussed over first thing upon arrival of mom or dad automatically assumes, he is now the alpha and does not need to take orders from no one. Begging for food or barking to get it is basically giving orders. My sister in law has a dog that bosses her around. He wants out, he barks at the door (he does not go out pee, he just wants out), she lets him out. he barks on the other side 10 seconds later, she lets him in. He barks in the kitche, she feeds him. then , of course, he growls at the children, at company that comes to visit, doing what the alpha is expected to do and protecting his family. 

I am sorry this is so long winded, there is just a lot on dog mentality, pack mentality, natural leadership, etc. 

So many dogs are getting ruined (Linda, and I don't mean you or anyone here, in general the pampered pets) by owners who do not understand this and treat them like humans instead of dogs. 

i love mine and respect them for being dogs, but that's what they are and the relationship works best if I treat them that way with body language and actions they understand and can relate to. 

Linda, what is your pup's name??? LOL, I feel silly calling him the LGD all the time. 

Jana


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Linda, 

about the chicken - I would not have an LGD around fowl until at least 2-3 years old, same with newborn kids. It;'s just too tempting and he will very likely kill the chicken. It's hard for me to punish for something that could have been prevented. Some dogs can be around free ranging birds, but others can't. But absolutely no puppy around a chicken. IT is much easier to teach him in years to come that birds are not to be touched (and again, some LGDs won't work with birds, depends on the level of prey drive and other things, some are more aggressive, some are more nurturing), than to unteach that after he had an accident. 


Jana


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Just following up on the last post. There should be no problem handling the dog now. That Gus bites you is actually a serious problem and is far gone. He may have some issues that he already came with beyond your control. With a dog the size of Pyr/Anatolian you need to be able to handle him or the dog will only be good to be put down. I handle all my pups early in the age, I make sure they understand I am not playing or pulling on them while I brush, pull old hair, check for ticks and pull them, trim nails. there should be no issue, mine already needed his trimmed and there were no problems. The vet needs to be able to do what they need to do and again, I have never had any problems. This is not a normal dog problem to be touchy, they like to be touched. Be careful , because these dogs remember and then associate from their experience, if trimming, make it painless. 

Hunting dogs are trained to be around gun fire by associating the noise with a pleasant activity. THe labs are tossed a ball to fetch (they love to fetch) and then shot is let out. They eventually associate the gun shots with fetching and it does not bother them. You have 4th of July coming up and that has ruined a few dogs, even hunting. Especially if left alone. They don't know what is going on, I found my dog under the house horrified howling and he would not come out. Since then afraid of thunder too. Please be careful with 4th of July, if you hear or see anything from your house, be there to reassure the pup this is not to be afraid of.

Since LGDs rarely enjoy a game of fetch, you can come up with a different activity to accompany the gun shots. I really have not trained dogs in this, most of those who are gun shy got that way from one bad experience. 

The pup will chase racoons all by himself. He is just not guarding yet. I assume the barking he does at the animals is meant as playful. Hey, wanna play, kind of way. He is just too young to be assuming that task yet . Again, every dog is different, maybe he is an early bloomer. First barking you will mostly hear at night though when more wildlife is around. At first they often bark at EVERYTHING, some like to listen to themselves bark (ughhh), with my knocking on the windows Adrianne figured out I don't care to know about the squirrels or birds. 

Jana


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Oh, forgot, what helped a lot with the chewing is I had something handy. When he came to visit with me, this was his way to interact with me, chew on me, lol. So I shoved a stick in his mouth instead and held the other end or his chew toy. that helped a lot. Eventually he weaned off having something to chew on while with me and now he can be content.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks for all the advice. I will take care to raise my dog as well as I can. My DH named the dog *Big Boy.* I try to call him that, though I don't really care for that name. I think it's silly. My DH always comes up with such original names for animals. I wish I hadn't promised him he could name the pup. I would have named im Golliath. :lol My last one was named Sampson. I would have named this one Sampson too, but the horse is named Sam, so we don't need two Sams. His name is *Big Boy*. :crazy He named my daughter a name I didn't think suited a young girl very well too, but I grew to be quite fond of her name over the years.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

I had a Samson also and he lived up to that name. I like Golliath too. I would have hard time with Big Boy too, sounds like a good nickname just not much of a name. I think he will turn out a fine pup for you, it will just take a few years. I have always learned from my dogs more than they have learned from me  

Good luck and keep us posted, and post a picture if you can too. 

Jana


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Well I sure can't help on calling cats! I had to cancel a vet appt once because the cat came up missing. Of course she showed back up when it was too late!


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Big Boy likes the cats. I think they enjoy playing with him too, all except the old one. But she has warned him well enough to leave her be. He just tackles the younger ones. And I saw one of them sneaking up on him yesterday. 

Thanks. If I have any more questions I'll be sure to ask. So far he's been good with anybody who comes over. But he's still a puppy. His natural suspiscion of strangers hasn't kicked in yet. He's relying on me to tell him if it's ok for people to drive up here and get out of the car. We have a hill right in front of the house that is a perfect spot for surveying the whole farm. Our vineyard is planted up there. I like to go up there on the 4th of July and watch everybody else do their fireworks. I never buy any myself. Why should I when I can see as many as I want from the top of my hill. Sure, It's not close up, but I don't care. :lol


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes, we have one cat and he is a play buddy to our LGD. He does indeed enjoy being chewed on. I am not sure about natural suspicion of strangers. The dog will mimic your behavior - if people are welcome to come in and out, he will suppose that's normal. Which is fine, he will still alert you, just may not be as effective in protecting. Usually the size of these dogs is intimidating enough to keep unwelcome visitors at bay. 

We watch everyone else's fireworks as well. I will be gone this year, hope pup does not freak out. May do a few test ones just to get him comfortable. 

Jana


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

MIL wants to give away her Welsh Corgi with papers. He is good with cattle. Not so good with chickens or goats. Needs to be the only dog in the home and NO small children. He is exremely jealous of them. He will "get down" and not jump up on you and he is house broken. He is an alpha male. I believe he is neutered, not sure. Good companion dog to an older person with no children or other pets. He has been to obedience training.


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