# Pregnant doe with swollen front legs



## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

OK I've looked on the forum and found some advice but not sure...so I thought I'd ask.
I have a FF doe that is bred to kid March 23. She is CAE negative. She is given measured amounts of medicated noble goat, free choice alfalfa pellets (at least 3 lbs per goat, but I don't really know how much SHE is getting), coastal hay, fresh water, baking soda, and minerals. She has swollen front legs that just happened in the last day or two (at least that is when I noticed it I was out of town over the weekend). She's being very lazy but gets up and walks when she wants to. Is this something I need to intervene with? 
Linda


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Why is she getting medicated feed? What medication is in it? I'm wondering, because a dairy goat should never get medicated feed while milking or close to being a milker. Also, baking soda should not be needed as a system. Don't mix it in the feed, just offer it to her if she seems to have an upset stomach. Her stomach PH can go off if you systematically feed baking soda. Does she have a stiff udder or possibly a swollen belly, too? It could be edema that went somewhat out of control. Check the salt content in your mineral: too much salt would not be good in that case. You could give some banamine to reduce swelling while you are figuring out what's going on. 

Other basics to check out is if there's any irritation/injury to front hooves/legs/knees or anything irritating (rocks sticks)in her bedding or stuck in her hooves.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I would say no since she is due so soon and it is not very out of the ordinary actually for some mild swelling. 
What is the drug in your feed?
Many creatures have problems carrying off all the waste products created at the end of pregnancy and there have been studies to indicate hormonal changes contribute but mostly it is structural and the increasing weight on the uterus limits circulatory efficiency.

It can be a sign of preeclampsia or toxemia so if it suddenly worsens pay attention. 
It can be blamed on management (salt- sugar - protein) but it sounds improbable in your situation.
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Mild swelling is normal, and this close to kidding as long as she is still mobile, and I would make her be more active if you can. Back in the sweet feed and grass hay days, we had a lot of this, so much so that we would move our water troughs way down, like 1000 feet down the fence line so the girls had to get up and walk. Course we also had CAE so that made everything worse. She is close, and yes I also would slowly start moving her to what you are going to feed on the milkstand, if you aren't going to utlize her milk in anyway, no human consumption than keeping her on the feed she is on is fine. 

How old is the doe?
Whats her temp?
How much of the grain are you feeding and what is the protein?

I know we never know the protein source to know if it's digestable or not, why I prefer to feed soy as my protein, so I know the protein they are getting is assimilated as such. If your going to move to nobel goat lactation pellet do so super slow, even with similar feed tags, they contain vastly different products. Really need to think about getting your goats off their cocci meds by about 8 months or so. Started to early on grain, to much grain when your talking about a doe who will be 2 and kidding this month or a doe who is 12 months and kidding this month...is where the confusion lies. Vicki


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

The doe is 13 months old. The medication in the feed is Rumensin. I gradually switch the bred doelings (12-13month olds) over to the milkstand grain (whole grains custom mix) the last month before kidding, which I've already started doing. I feed the young does as much as they want (it usually works out to about 1+ lbs feed per doe twice a day). Protein in Noble Goat is 16%. Protein in milkstand feed is 12%.

hahaha are you trying to get me hurt!! You should've been here to see this!! It was easy taking her temp but her penmate (Pearl) was another story...remember I have to do this by myself...out in a field with no collar is a BAD IDEA...let me stress this again for newbies BAD IDEA...I won't try that again...she may be pregnant but she's very resourceful!! She saw what I did to her friend and she didn't want to be no where near me. LOL all I can do is laugh. When I finally caught her I put her head between my legs facing her backend, told her haaa you can't get away! I leaned over to put the thermometer in the rectum and she had me into the side of a tree in 5 seconds... :blush like I said it was probably a hilarious site to see. And she was laughing then! You know what I'm talking about you've seen them laugh! 
After adjusting the situation to my advantage. I took her temp! 
Temp was taken when the sun was out. Temp 104 for the doe that has slight swelling in her front legs. Yes, she was laying in the sun. 
Temp for the penmate was 102.8 Both does are jet black. Yes, she moves around but you can tell she doesn't want to if she doesn't have to. 
Linda


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Your milkstand is your best friend! I do everything on the milkstand.

Tommorrow when it is light out, really look her over, trim her feet and see if she has seperation at the hoof wall. Really press around the edge of her hoof where the hoof meats the meat of the leg (cornary band) look for abcess, listen to her breath and feel her all over including her udder, I would not want to see a doe with 104 in this weather, it simply is not hot enough even heavy bred. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I don't understand? Why would you feed a medicated feed when she is due 3/23? Yes, I read your follow-up thread so that explains some of it. And then your milk stand grain is 12% protein? What am I not getting here?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Cindy why would you need more than a 12% feed if your feeding a 17%+ alfalfa product, does protein give you milk? I do feed higher than this because I have a herd of young does milking this year, 1 to 4 year olds, but once 5 and mature, protein is for growth, my older does do so much better on a low protein grain with their alfalfa pellets.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

NPgoats said:


> ...hahaha are you trying to get me hurt!!...remember I have to do this by myself...out in a field with no collar is a BAD IDEA...let me stress this again for newbies BAD IDEA...she may be pregnant but she's very resourceful!! She saw what I did to her friend ... she had me into the side of a tree in 5 seconds...a hilarious site to see... You know what I'm talking about you've seen them laugh!


:rofl
Thank you for sharing the details, I laughed out loud and startled the dog... I can picture the whole episode and they really do seem to laugh too sometimes.

Swelling in extremities is often poor kidney function, the question is what and why. I agree with Vicki, that temp combined with the swelling is a concern.

I'm laughing just thinking about it, but is it easy to get a urine sample and take it in? Extra oncentrated urine, any blood or white blood cells might give a clue or eliminate some things too.

How do her eyelids look? Fecal or worming lately? No, that wouldn't bring on a fever but could affect her general resilience to deal with what ever else is going on.

The protein issue is confusing. My understanding is like what Vicki said, protein for growth, then its the carbs in grain that's extra energy/calories for milking. The confusing part then is when we hear that big producing, Top Ten level milking does are sometimes pushed with lots of protein and they then make more milk, while risking rumen longevity. So that is a little confusing.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Cindy why would you need more than a 12% feed if your feeding a 17%+ alfalfa product, does protein give you milk? I do feed higher than this because I have a herd of young does milking this year, 1 to 4 year olds, but once 5 and mature, protein is for growth, my older does do so much better on a low protein grain with their alfalfa pellets.


Glad you clarified that. Yes, I was under the impression that you needed higher protein for milkers. Here, everyone that gets grain is 2 and under, but I'll need to remember that when they are older.


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## dreamfirefarm (Nov 15, 2011)

What about pregnancy toxemia? swollen legs reluctance to rise. better check that also if you catch it early. not too bad.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Excersize and lots of clean water We also put the water barrels further from the barns/houses...no matter sex. Even bucks get sluggy in the winter. I am wondering about your calcium ratio? Some does just do not get enough out of alfalfa pellets, although it is better than nothing. 
And for those not feeding a feed containing Rumensin it is for cocci prevention. It aids in growth keeping cocci levels low.
Tam


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Lynne starting a doe down the path of propolyne glycol which does such a number on the rumen, will have her not eating in about 24 hours, then she will go into hypocalcemia, even with CMPK she will start throwing ketones, more propolyne glycol and the only way to save her is to abort the kids early. It's a vicious circle brought on by missmanagement, on the forum I have found that just not bringing up the whole propolyne glycol old tired song and dance is better. Than changing the management so that they do better next spring. Getting the molassas out, copper bolusing, selenium injections over what minimal dosages are, and minerals that aren't just all salt and copper sulfate and iron. 

I would have a different opinion if the swelling included that the doe was down, then I would put her on dex and propolyne glycol and CMPK injectable. Vicki


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Cindy anyone wanting top 10 milkers needs to find another forum, I have no interest in that, I don't live in an area condusive to anything close to top 10 does. I want a doe who fills her udder consistantly for 10 months and real quality of health to that longevity, and few to no reproduction problems. You aren't going to have any of that pushing protein. 

Every year there is a herd or two who will destroy a doe by foundering her, by acidosis, trying to get a good milker who is to thin into good enough condition to win a show, they do this with high protein feed....every year, just watch the boards  We preach about the dry period, how important it is, but still does will freshen without enough extra to milk off that first couple of weeks. Grain is not your does friend.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Oh, Vicki, I'm not good at reading between the lines! So in summary, you are saying, yes, increasing the protein or feed in general will increase milk production, but then you sacrifice the overall health of the doe?


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

To add to what Vicki mentioned I have seen it happen too. Years ago I would drool over those big beautiful Alpine does that made top ten and were show queens to boot. Ahhh......thats what inspired me, what I was working hard for in my breeding and management programs. But then I noticed something, after a few yrs those big beautiful does were disappearing or you'd read on the websites that they had died. Eventually we'd find that the cause was just as Vicki explained. Some breeders refer to it as getting, "blown out."


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## dreamfirefarm (Nov 15, 2011)

I dont believe I said anything about propylene Glycol just wondered if it could be preg tox.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi Lynne, what is your treatment plan for toxemia? Vicki


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I can't get my does out of the barn right now (new barn finished in the winter so i couldn't get fence posts into the ground). Their stall is good sized so several times a day I go in and gently move them so they walk briskly doing "laps" around the stall. Its sooooo icy outside that i don't dare let them wander out the door. My poor buck slipped on the ice, spread eagle, and is still tender in the back end, poor boy.

My does do so much better delivering when they get exercise, which makes sense. It keeps the muscles primed and ready to push! It also seems to peak their appetite so they eat more hay than if I just let them lounge around.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Completely agree on the exercise. The girls are all getting pretty lazy lately (all, but 1 are pregnant and due between March 20 - May 2), even when it warms and we have sunshine! I have been taking them all for walks every day (weather permitting).


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I think exercise in icy Maine would be hard for sure. Mine love their "toys" and they are just OCD compelled to climb LOL. Its amazing how much more exercise they get just cuz I put different levels in one of the pens and it seems to invite "movement" and running around. Its really hilarious to see how just one goes up and you can almost see the laying down ones thinking "can't let her do that" and they get up and go over there :rofl

You might be able to do that inside a big barn too? I wonder if you gave them some gentle, low steps so are safe enough for preggers but still inviting to climb on?


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

Ok we are another 6 days into this and she has more swelling. Temp has gone up and down from 104 to 102.1 to 104. She still wants to eat BUT I noticed that she only wants to pick out the grain from the alfalfa pellets. This rain we've had over the last several days has been non stop and has kept her in the shed. She does get up to go get a drink (the water is a good walk from the shed) but then goes back to the shed. Honestly everyone has been in the shed hiding from the rain. But when it stops everyone comes out except her. I have checked her all over and find no clue of anything wrong. She started very mild swelling in the back legs yesterday. I have moved her to the barn tonight since she looks like the kids have shifted and I think she has lost her ligaments...it feels squishy. She is not due until 3/23. I will send her out to pasture for fresh air in the morning if it doesn't look like anything is happening. She doesn't seem to be depressed but really doesn't want to get up. She is in pain when standing and walking. She is still eating and drinking and talks to me as normal. More exercising will be easy tomorrow as we have sun in the forecast. I am concerned that she has stopped eating a majority of her alfalfa pellets. I'm not sure how much she is actually eating since she has other penmates. What else can I do to get past this? 
Thanks, Linda


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Over the weekend, one of mine started being similar, only a little swollen legs, but off and on again in some discomfort and looking hunchy and just not herself, and not moving unless forced to. She's huge pregnant. This is the one that had problems with too big of kids before, AND ate thru her entire labor and between kids, so I get REALLY worried if she's off feed. 

When she's hunchy, the ligaments are harder to find, I could see thinking they were a little squishy maybe? But I don't think they really are.

She seemed really off yday, and refused even treats, so I rigged up a stock panel separation so she's next to the others but I can keep tabs on what she is or is not eating. I really worry about them not eating at this stage.

Mine's temp is same as yours, varying on the high side of normal.

So I went ahead and gave her some banamine this morning, within 30 mins she was nibbing at hay a little. I don't now if that might help your girl? Or if its just masking symptoms, I'm worried about that too.


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

Thanks Lacia for sharing. It helps to know what others are going through and doing with their girls. I know she is carrying multiples and she is bigger than most her age when she's not pregnant. Hope they both make it to their due dates and have healthy kids. This is a FF of mine that I'm fond of. I gave her CMPK SubQ earlier and when I went to check on her a few hours later she was standing and talking to me when I came into the barn. Linda


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks Linda! 

When I saw mine starting to have issues on Fri, I laughed and said, "figures, since I posted an exercise idea in her thread yday" LOL

Mine had triplets as FF, but 2 were dead. One had very weird thick, black umbilical. Vet said it had gotten twisted and that started cascade of problems since there was no room in there unless everyone was moving, so another one died before birth. The one with the cord weirdness didn't have teeth erupted etc and was soft dead, not gummy yet but not fresh dead either. 

She kidded at day 142-3 depending how you count, so the first one probably died right around viability. Huge bummer. Gorgeous gopher eared doeling of course.

I've monitored her weight carefully this pregnancy, she's preg huge but not overweight. She wasn't really overweight last time either, but borderline.

At some point I'll give mine CMPK too if she's not eating alfalfa pellets. But when? So far her temps been on high side of normal so that was suggesting to me that it wasn't a calcium problem? I know it will become if she's not eating. Reminds me I'd better go check on her. 

And news is just now saying we might get a little snow? I'm so not in the mood... I've loved our May kiddings when the weather is nice, but then only the biggest might be ready to breed that year, and holding them over has drawbacks too... but kidding in Feb & Mar so far I'm not a big fan...

So what was the deciding factor for you to give the CMPK now?


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

How often is CMPK given and for how many days?
Linda


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Since you saw improvement with the CMPK than start her every 12 hours, 30 cc....if she needs more relief than that than every 6 hours, but your in for the long haul, you can't stop it now. I would also get her lutelyse and dex now, so if you can't get it from your vet you can get it from somebody. I would luelyse her 6 days before she is due so she kids 4 days before she is due, I simply wouldn't go any earlier since she is still eating. Make sure you have another bottle of CMPK because you have to continue it after she kids or she will go into milkfever...use the bottle until it is gone and her appetite is back. Vicki


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