# Bucks on only alfalfa??



## CarrieC (Mar 31, 2011)

Morning!

In my very unique part of the country, I can only get alfalfa for my goats. So, even my buck and wether get only alfalfa. Should I be adding a meat goat pellet with AC to prevent urinary calculi? 

Thanks for any input!

Carrie


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If they stay in good weight on what you are doing, continue it. There is plenty of phosphrus in their browse, in grass hay if you offer it and in their mineral mix. I use grain to put weight on the boys and to grow them out intially until after their first breeding season. Then it's all alfalfa pellets, grass hay, browse, minerals and water. Vicki


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## CarrieC (Mar 31, 2011)

The two things that brought this question up, were prevention of UC but also the weight gain issue. My buck seems struggling to keep weight on since rut and while he is now returning to this his pre rut behavior, the guy could use a few more pounds. Poor thing always acts like he's starving (he's not  Should I just pick a good meat goat pellet to use to supplement this time of year and the rest of the time not worry about his "alfalfa only" diet? I keep hearing horror stories about UC and don't want anything like that to happen. All the talk about calc/phos ratio, etc. I'm confused and a little frustrated that I only have certain feeds available in my area. Thanks!


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

My bucks normally get alfalfa hay and grain. Right now they are on alfalfa/grass mix & grain.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Ditto for me. I notice my wether self regulates pretty well. He eats a little grain and his alfalfa hay. Mostly interested in hay.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

If the ONLY thing, literally, that you are giving them is alfalfa, and they are getting nothing else, at all, then yes, I would want to see that more well-balanced. Is there no grass hay available to you at all? If he's underweight, that's easy, add a ammonium chloride including pellet until he is back to a good weight (do it gradually, of course, don't just start feeding him a whole bunch of grain). But I would do a mixture of alfalfa and grass once he's back at a good weight. And if you can't get grass hay under any circumstances, then I would think that you could do a small amount of meat goat pellet to supplement.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I would not use a meat goat pellet since it's high in protein and he's already getting a lot of that from what I bet is very nice, irrigated alfalfa. I would probably add rice bran. It will add energy for weight gain and it is high in phosphorus (more than just whole grain- however you don't feed as much either) to balance your alfalfa. (make sure not to get the fortified pellets which was rebalanced out with calcium). You might do a combo of oats and rice bran if it's just the powdered rice brand and he doesn't want to eat it alone (mine lick it up like candy). 

You can buy AC and add it to your own grain mix instead of getting the pellets just for the AC.


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## CarrieC (Mar 31, 2011)

You are absolutely correct, I cannot get any other hay than alfalfa. No 50-50 grass/alfalfa, grass hay, nothing. I tried to get some 50-50 bermuda/alfalfa one year from a farmer and it was loaded with burs and c**p....so I gave up. That is why I am thinking there should be something else in their diet to prevent UC and help them keep weight on at times. Also, the "grain" my girls get is Purina Noble Goat.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Carrie what do you feed your does? Can you just use it and add pipevet.com ammonium chloride to it, a teaspoon a day per buck? Buying a 50 pound sack for 1 goat? Course it's so dry where you are, that might not be as big a deal as it would be here unless the sack was in the house. Vicki


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## CarrieC (Mar 31, 2011)

The girls get Purina Noble Goat, and I would love to just add AC and use the same mix for the boys! But isn't my girls grain too high in protein? It is 16%. What could I spray it with to get the AC to stick?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I just put their grain in a bucket, pour a tiny bit of corn oil onto a part of the grain (I keep the corn oil in a catsup bottle) and then put the AC onto the oil, walking to the buck pen I swish the grain all around in the bucket to disperse the AC and oil. Why is it OK for your does to be getting 16% and not your bucks? If you alfalfa hay is super high in protein where it would scare you to feed your bucks it and your does grain, than why are you feeding does 16%? Vicki


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## CarrieC (Mar 31, 2011)

That's all I have available for dairy grain, that or Goat Chow  I don't have enough goats to mix my own, with the feed store saying 50lb minimums on things like oats. Also, I have to get quantities I can go through quickly, as you know, with it always over 80 in this part of the country (for most of the year), the weevils are insane! I get better quality feed through a fresh, ready mix bag off the truck every couple of weeks. And my only choice, for goats, are the above listed bags. Scratch that, I can also get all livestock feed, and show goat and meat goat rations.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

A breeder nearby here fed to her bucks nothing but a high quality alfalfa that was shipped in to her from out of state. She ordered a semi truck load at a time. She never had trouble with UC.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Oats alone are a great complement to alfalfa for a complete ration for goats. A little rice bran for fat if needed.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

If your hay is pretty high in protein, you can probably feed the "all livestock feed" and be just fine. If you have some BOSS and beet pulp to add, all the better. Or, like Angie said, oats by themselves are fine too.


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## CarrieC (Mar 31, 2011)

Ok, not trying to sound totally stupid here, but would the oat/alfalfa combo just be for the boys or for all? The girls would still need a different mix for on the milkstand right? This has been a question for me of what to feed since I started, but I just kept getting totally different answers from everyone around here that I asked. Right now, the girls(2) each get a scoop of alfalfa pellets with a large handful of Noble Goat and a sprinkle of BOSS in the am and chunk of hay in the feeder for the afternoon, at night they get another scoop of alfalfa pellets(dinner and so that the kids can peacefully lure them into the barn). The boys get the same minus the grain. I am in the middle of the desert, literally, there is no browse, they are on dry lot, rocks and sand as far as the eye can see  I am getting 3 more goats over the next few months and wanted to get this feed thing nailed down as these goats are our family source of milk and very loved members of the family. I don't want them sick over something I am leaving out/adding to their diet. But if this can be made much simpler than I am making it out to be, please do tell 

Carrie


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

The does can get the oats too. I mix up my own feed, and it's a mix I found on here (I think it was "Sondra's mix" or something like that), except that I doubled the barley and 1/2'd the oats, since I sourced some barley really cheaply from a farmer. The mix includes the addition of soybean meal or calf manna, for the protein, which I was doing at first, but then I got my hay tested, and it was almost 20% protein, so I don't add that anymore. For the does in milk or anybody who is thin, you can add enough BOSS, or ricebran if you can get it, to make the fat of the grain ration up to 5%.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yep, my girls get oats and rice bran/boss for oil. That's all the grain they get. Take advantage of that alfalfa and feed a lower protein grain unless you are pushing for the highest possible production you can get. They will still produce very well on the oats.

I wasn't thinking about heat since it's cold now. But yes, rice bran can go bad quickly. In the heat I would (and will if still feeding it come summer) keep it in the freezer or at least house taking a few pounds out every few days to feed. Boss will keep better and I will feed it instead if it's not too high come summer.

Ever tried DE in your feed to help keep the bugs out? It does work well, won't keep your fats from going rancid though.

Vicki, my bucks would be urine scalding like crazy on all that protein!


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Carrie, I feed my does alfalfa hay and grass hay, and on the milkstand, they get a mix of alfalfa pellets, oats, and sunflower seeds. That's it.


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## CarrieC (Mar 31, 2011)

Thanks Ashley. I use DE for my chickens dust baths, but hadn't thought about it for the feed. I will literally get a bag of something into the driveway from the feed store and I will see tiny weevils crawling out of the seams of the bag! I have a separate freezer in the garage just for animal feed. I hate Summer here at times and it lasts for 6 months, 105-115 gets old in a hurry! I appreciate all of the input, thanks to all & keep it coming


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

I have tried feeding excellent quality alfalfa hay with Oats for the 'milk stand grain'. My goats dropped production and condition. If you go that route, keep an eye on them for that. I went back to the 'old way' of feeding, before, I was trying to fix what wasn't broke. Now I have healthy goats with shiny coats that milk well.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I have used DE in my grain too. It does work. I've had more troubles with corn having weevils than oats.

I feed oats and alfalfa to all my goats and just vary the amount according to need. My Nubians have a greater need for the rice bran than my minis. (Maybe that was part of the problem with yours Amy? I do notice my Nubian doelings will fall off without that rice bran, and they will do it pretty quickly too.)


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## CarrieC (Mar 31, 2011)

Amy do you use a premixed grain or mix your own & do you add AC to the boys?


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Angie, I tried adding in the boss and then the beet pulp the year I tried the oats, none of it helped. I'll never go back to feeding that. I'm glad it's working well for you.  

Carrie- The elevator mixes our grain. It consists of corn, oats, beet pulp, and a dairy pellet. It's the mix I started out using then when I joined the dairy forums few years ago, I thought I'd try to fix their feed by doing this or that and boy do I regret it, it was a learning curve that I went through and I have now switched back to what was working when I first started with goats and that's what I'm sticking with until it doesn't work any more. I learned the whole don't fix something that's not broke. Lol The grain I have, it is fed to all the goats...bucks, milking does, growing kids, pregnant does, ect. I don't have certain feeds for certain groups/ages ect ect.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Well, it is working for my minis, but I'll do what I need to for the Nubians. I use alfalfa pellets in my ration to have a high protein concentrate. But I know another producer who said hers just didn't produce well without some soy protein - soy is probably the protein source of your dairy pellet?


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## CarrieC (Mar 31, 2011)

Good point Angie. I think things are different for our mini's. I think they have a tendency to put on weight easier


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I've used horse feed when I couldn't get a low protein goat feed. The fat is higher and the protein is lower than goat feeds. They seem to take more care in making horse feeds than any other type feeds.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I had a very nice Mare and Foal 14% available in Texas with Zimpro minerals. My goats did great on that. The price just got really high for some reason.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

swgoats said:


> Well, it is working for my minis, but I'll do what I need to for the Nubians. I use alfalfa pellets in my ration to have a high protein concentrate. But I know another producer who said hers just didn't produce well without some soy protein - soy is probably the protein source of your dairy pellet?


Well, I have nubians. Not crazy producers, but they definitely milk well, will peak over a gallon after a couple freshenings and most will hold lactations well (my foundation doe milked 20 months her first freshening). Mine stay in good flesh easy. Baby, fresh two weeks, is quite fat. Stayed fat through her last lactation but she was eating some of that milk herself. :/ No self nursing this time around though so let's hope she forgets for good (she started it up when I let her copper bolus lapse! and copper was what made her stop to begin with). But she's milking enough to feed her three babies and have around a quart a day left over for us. I can grab a handful of fat from her side right now and it hasn't changed since freshening yet. I'm sure it will though. She is getting just 1.5 lbs whole oats plus probably over a cup of rice bran a day split into her two feedings. Oh goodness, Abigail who is a two year old soon to be FF is the fattest goat I do believe I have ever had. Her fat behind her elbow sticks out from the elbow. Hope kidding goes ok and she milks like the dickens! I am not feeding her any grain and won't until probably just the last couple weeks. I don't want to make the kids any bigger than they have to be.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

What purpose does beet pulp serve in feed? Is it fiber? Carbs? Protein? Fat? I don't know what it is really, or why I should add it. Is rice bran better than boss or equal to it as a source of fat?


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

BOSS has a little more fat in it than rice bran, a bit of fiber, some vitamins and things. The rice bran I don't know a whole lot about. I got some rice bran, but when I'm done with this bag, I'm going back to the BOSS because here it is cheaper than rice bran (at least the one I found). Anyway, you would probably just go with whichever is cheaper per amount fat, unless you are trying to get the minerals from the BOSS.

Beet pulp is the by-product of turning sugar beets into sugar. Since there are several sugar beet factories near me, this stuff is pretty cheap here. I get it for $12 something per hundred pounds in bulk dumped in the bed of my pickup, or something like $8 or $9 if you get it in a 50 lb bag. It still has some of the sugar left, and plenty of fiber. It is higher in energy than hay and lower in energy than most grain. I get the shredded kind, since my goats don't like the big hard pellets and they don't like it soaked either. http://shady-acres.com/susan/beetpulp.shtml There is lots of info in this site for beet pulp.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks! I think I'm going to add it. Should I mix it in equal parts with the oats? Right now I'm doing 50lbs of oats with 10 pounds of boss and 10 pounds of calf manna.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Mine love the BP soaked, they hate it dry! I've fed BP for years. I started out with feeding it to the horses and then started giving it to the goats. With mine, I had t start off with a tiny bit mixed with their feed, and added a tiny bit more each day. Once they developed a taste for it, they love it. Since I top dress minerals and kelp right now (until the barn is done) I love that the BP holds both and if you stir it, it stays pretty equal throughout the servings.

When I mix the beet pulp, they get it pound for pound. However, since I soak the BP, it looks like they are getting it 4 parts BP to 1 part concentrate! I weighed it out so I know how much in a can equals a pound of soaked BP. I don't know how much to feed if you feed it dry.

I mix the pelleted BP 2 parts water to 1 part BP pellets.

If feeding it soaked, just be careful in warmer weather as it ferments pretty easily. If they haven't finished it within a couple of hours, I toss it to the horses or chickens before it gets to fermenting.


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## trnubian (Mar 12, 2008)

If you are feeding a decent quality aflalfa hay there is no reason to mess with alfalfa pellets. The hay is better quality and has more fiber. If you are worried about your buck only getting alfalfa hay Standlee company also makes grass pellets along with alfalfa pellets. If you fed him grass pellets it would bring the Ca to P ratio to more of a suitable level. However, I know many breeders who feed straight alfalfa all year and only supplement with some of the does grain when he needs to get back into condition. The bucks have mineral and alfalfa and water most of the year and do wondefully on it. I wouldn't worry. 
I totally understand having to buy premixed feed because you simply cannot use a mix you make yourself fast enough for the bugs to stay out of it. Maybe when you get a few more goats that won't be so much of a problem.
I do agree with Amy though about just straight oats even with BOSS and beat pulp and calf manna. My does went downhill fast. (We have really nice alfalfa hay too.) It all sounds great on paper but it did not work for us at all.
I have tried bagged feeds and nothing compares to what we started with like Amy said it wasn't broke but we tried to fix it and it didn't do us any good.
We feed equal parts whole oats and cracked corn. The dairy pellet we supplement the grain with is made by Kent Feeds. If you go to their website it is in the cattle section and is called ProVider 38. It is a 38% proetin pellet used to be added to feed rations of dairy cattle. We also add gold cote oil that smells like cherries for fat and to cut the dust and then a teeny bit of molasses. A little bit of molasses will not completely through the copper out of wack and the does do need some iron supplement which molasses has in it. Not to mention they love it.
I know this is all completely confusing to you but you have to try and see what works for your herd. If you are happy with the way your girls are doing don't change anything.
Good Luck!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Watch cutting the protein level of your concentrate with beet pulp. Beet pulp is high fiber low protein energy. If you are feeding 1lb oats and you switch to 1lb oats/beet pulp, then you have reduced the protein level of your ration. Now if you continue feeding 1lb oats and then you add beet pulp, that can encourage growth. I generally only feed it if there is a problem getting quality forage. In the Texas drought my goats loved soaked beet pulp, and it helped get weight back on them. I'd tried soaked before with little success, but I think the heat and the drought made it more desirable. I think animals like a combo of dry and wet food just like we do.

My rationale to mixing alfalfa pellets in my grain ration is I know they are 17% protein, and I can use them to create a concentrate that is 14%-15% protein. If I rely on my hay for protein only, then I have less control. There aren't too many ingredients that provide high protein. BOSS is high in protein, fiber and fat. You don't want to use too much fat, so you can't use BOSS only for protein. Soy is an option. Some high protein pellets have animal by-products, so you have to watch for that if you are opposed to feeding that.

Fat is important to supplement to. I'm suspicious that most people feed enough BOSS provide the needed fat. Rice bran is a good fat supplement. A high protein pellet likely has soy which is fatty too. Looking at the Kent pellets, they have different fat percentages to choose from.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

trnubian said:


> If you are feeding a decent quality aflalfa hay there is no reason to mess with alfalfa pellets. The hay is better quality and has more fiber. If you are worried about your buck only getting alfalfa hay Standlee company also makes grass pellets along with alfalfa pellets. If you fed him grass pellets it would bring the Ca to P ratio to more of a suitable level. However, I know many breeders who feed straight alfalfa all year and only supplement with some of the does grain when he needs to get back into condition. The bucks have mineral and alfalfa and water most of the year and do wondefully on it. I wouldn't worry.
> I totally understand having to buy premixed feed because you simply cannot use a mix you make yourself fast enough for the bugs to stay out of it. Maybe when you get a few more goats that won't be so much of a problem.
> I do agree with Amy though about just straight oats even with BOSS and beat pulp and calf manna. My does went downhill fast. (We have really nice alfalfa hay too.) It all sounds great on paper but it did not work for us at all.
> I have tried bagged feeds and nothing compares to what we started with like Amy said it wasn't broke but we tried to fix it and it didn't do us any good.
> ...


I have also tried some pre-bagged feeds. Can't think off the top my head which ones I used...but I agree, thus far, nothing compares to the "old" way of feeding. Last year, I didn't use BOSS at all. Just the normal mix, no oil/molasses.  Girls looked good & milked well. Kids grew well to.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Beet pulp is fiber which is a carb. The thing about Beet pulp is, being a fiber source energy (which us humans do not digest like ruminants, horses etc do) it is converted to energy by the "good" bacteria, not the acid producing kind. This means you can feed more total energy from beet pulp than from grain, because you don't produce the acid and rumen problems you would get from large amounts of grain. It is also a slow break down, keeping a steady flow of energy going into the blood stream instead of more of a spike that you get from grain. This is why it's also great for older animals who may not have a good sugar metabolism anymore, and may no longer benefit as from the starch in grain like when they were young. In such a case, you would be soaking the sugar out of the pulp however, because that sugar becomes harmful in an animal that is not metabolizing it properly- same as people with insulin resistance. 

Beet pulp also has more calcium than phosphorus.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Doesn't the calf manna provide the protein in the mix?


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## trnubian (Mar 12, 2008)

JamieH said:


> Doesn't the calf manna provide the protein in the mix?


Yes if you add calf manna to a grain, say oats, it will increase the protein level.
My animals do not like it for some reason and I did not get the results with the calf manna as I do with the ProVider 38 at all. It is also extremely expensive here. I know some places sell a kind of generic calf manna but I have never been able to find any. If you are needing to increase the protein of your feed it will work if you cannot find anything else cheaper and many people have good luck with it. It just did not work here.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Mine loved the calf manna, I think it's the anise...it smells really good. It also seems to have good ingredients which it actually lists. But, it is really expensive. My local feed mill sells a pellet similar to it that they call "high test pellets". This one has similar nutrients analysis and is a lot cheaper, but the ingredients list is stuff like "grain products" etc. It doesn't have anise and it's a larger pellet (although I think they make a smaller one now). My goats just don't like it very much, they just ate around it mostly; and I tried it and it tasted salty or something. It was a lot cheaper though.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I love that anise smell when you open a bag. My goats seemed to like it. One bag was high, but in a grain mix it didn't raise the price of the ration much. Same with rice bran. Mixed with grain, it doesn't raise the ration price much. I like to keep my concentrate cost to around $14 per 50 lb.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

My goats love calf manna and it is the only pellet I ever use because of the quality of ingredients. And you are right Angie, adding it to a grain ration doesn't really add much to the price considering the protein and mineral content. Now I mostly just alfalfa and oats for everyone but kids get calf manna sometimes and bucks get it sometimes after rut.


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