# 4-H too risky for dairy goats???



## CarrieC (Mar 31, 2011)

I would love opinions on this please. My kids want to use our dairy goats in 4-H this year and I am concerned. Has anyone else out there done this? Were you concerned about the lack of biosecurity? We have put a lot of money, care and love into our goats and we depend on them to supply us with milk for personal family use and we have a disease free herd. Never an abscess, CAE & Johnes negative. We traveled far and wide to acquire disease free goats and always followed strict quarantine protocol. The thought of CL scares me to death, not to mention possibly picking up pneumonia in our bred does??? Am I overly concerned? 

Thank you for any input!

Carie


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2012)

Carrie, I cannot speak for your state, but in Michigan here it is awful at some counties.. other counties the goats have vet checks to get unloaded at the fairgrounds, so your best bet is to call your local county and ask who you can speak with about this and ask questions.. lots of them.. 
and then you have the fair goers feeding your goats cotton candy etc, without your permission.. Some post signs asking people not to feed the animals.. common sense, not all people have it or use it.. Speak up, find out who the goat superintendent is and call them.. Ask them if they have obviously diseased animals removed.. or what they do about it.. Don't rule out 4H until you find out how its run in your area..
Thats the negative side.. the wonderful side is 4H, its great for your children and enriching, they learn team work, they learn how to lose gracefully and how to win and earn it..How to work hard, and how to form longlasting friendships and so much much more.. there are bio-security things you can do for yourself.. to ensure your goats stay healthy.. Tam runs 4H, maybe she can help you with some of this..she is one of the mods here on the board..


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## CarrieC (Mar 31, 2011)

Thank you Barbara. I have been in the process of chasing down that info, but our sign up deadline for 4-H is soon, so I thought I'd get some DGI opinions. There are so many meat goats out here and very few dairy, I've noticed some people look at risk of sickness differently. I was surfing DGI for info and found a thread where Tammy had posted she leads 4-H, so I just sent her an email


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Would be good to find out who has access to the animals at night if they have to be left. Our fairgrounds use prisoners from the nearby medium security prison to clean and do maintainance at night. One year 2 men did unspeakable things to all the jr. doelings. The ones who didn't die were ruined way beyond ever being bred. It was not a happy fair year for the children that found that in the morning.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

My kids all did 4H with their little herds of dairy goats, but that was long ago. We did the saem back then as now, got a stall with an open stall on either side, or open on 1 side and someone I trusted on the other. We slept in the open stall (curtains went up), as well as stored out feed and supplies. That way we could watch out for them, and the others in the barn over night. Other people slept in campers and tents. 

I always kept my animals as far away from others as we could, and it worked. None of the animals ever got sick nor did any of the goats that stayed home but were pen mates to the ones who did. That was 30 years ago though. Things change..


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

My daughter considers the 4H week the best week of the year. She really does. Is it a risk for the animals? yes, it always is if you show, buy, or let a starnger into your barn. But like Sully we do everything we can to safeguard our does and kids. First of all: we start with a good example. Our rule is: Lillian picks the does and kids she wants to take (and she picks and chooses, while considering combination classes and everythin!) but if any of them has ANY problem in the weeks going up to the fair or doesn't smile on the morning we load we leave them home. We want to display examples of health. Like Sully we make sure we are on an end of the barn and prevent contact with other goats. Then, we always have one of us at or near the goats. Fair, to us, is about the animals and shows, not about the other attractions going on. 
I think showing 4H is a fantastic experience for kids. Take charge, even if your fair isn't perfect yet. Show your great animals, hang out at your pen(s) and tell everyone why your does look so healthy, shiny, big, etc. Tell them about feed, vaccinations, prevention, show thyem how to trim feet or notice there's something wrong with their animal: believe me, there's sooooooooo much information about goats that needs to be put out there. You can be that source of information at your kids' fair.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I assume that you have a closed herd then, and never attend shows. Your children can do a dairy goat project without ever leaving home, there is no requirement to show your 4-H project. You attend meetings, do a record book, showing how the money came in (or went out ), you do not have to go to the fair to complete the project.

We show anyway, so we take the same precautions we always take when we go to shows- we are penned next to only herds we know, we use our tack pens as a barrier between our goats and the next set if we can. Every county has differing levels of vet check accountability...many vets take the time to be good but many don't. We have had active CL abscesses at our fair before :really. Do you have neighbors that own goats or sheep? Your biosecurity is only as good as theirs...most of the things our goats can catch at fair are transferred by insect vectors...they can get them at home, too


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Know the Barn Superintendant! Find out HOW they go over your animals before entry, there is or SHOULD be inspection before they even set foot in the barn. If you cannot have a pen between your animals and other...put up a solid board! Spray your pens before and after. Keep distance between your goats and others. Although you do wind up having others and children petting your goats and other goats, there just is no possible way to keep biosecurity at its optimal. Healthy animals do portray a better example as mentioned above. Healthy animals tend not to fall prey to diseases like pneumonia as much as weaker animals. Healthy animals win! Why becuase they show better than a weakened animal. Sure goats get nervous but soon calm down. If they don't they shouldn't be used to show. 

We teach our kids to look for healthy animals, to keep their hands as clean as possible and to not let other goats get too close. All of our kids use our animals, they shave them, they feed them, they give them shots, trim their hooves...so they are familiar with their animals and KNOW what to look for if their animal is going down. Anything that looks off in their animals they know and are instructed to go over with me for diagnosisng the problem. Haven't had to yet but the kids know what to look for. 

Whether you are comfortable with letting your kids take your goats to fair is up to you. Are you over reacting, maybe a little, but you do have money and time racked up (invested) in your herd. The likelihood of catching CAE at a fair could happen, the chances of getting CL...could happen, any thing COULD happen at a fair. Giving a chance to a kid to acheive self-worth and confidence...that is also your choice. Not that there are not other chances for them to gain self- confidence or self worth. It is something to actually watch in progress and see it first hand when they accomplish a challenge, it really is something! Very fulfilling, heart warming indeed.
Tam


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## cvalley (Apr 15, 2009)

4-H is a wonderful experience that will last a life time. Very rewarding on many levels; however, bio-security is a hot topic and rightfully so as you put so much care, money, and work into the dairy goat project. I agree that you can do the project without showing and you learn a tremendous amount and make lasting friendships. If you choose to show, take precautions as mentioned in the previous insights mentioned. My daughter just loved 4-H as it is a powerful experience within the community aspect of getting involved.


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## Polopony (Dec 24, 2011)

We have had a very good but challenging time with 4-H. It has been a lot of time training everyone on biosecurity and being fastidious to the max. I know we have driven our agent crazy, but I don't care. We have educated everyone else in the county and we are by no means the most knowledgable goat owners in the world, but always trying to learn. I always get the same pens, spray them down and put up "My goat bites" signs or "people food makes goats sick" signs. We are the first in the barn and the last out. It is a long week, but rewarding when my kids get to show how hard they have worked. JMHO


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

We live near the fairgrounds, and I have got to know the goat leaders. I've been told chances are good we can show out of our trailer and take them home. I do not want to take our good breeding stock and leave them there, neither do I want to camp by a goat pen for a week in July. CL *has* been passed around at our fair in the past, as has respiratory problems. My kids will show a goat regardless, but if we *have* to leave them a week, it won't be a goat we wish to keep.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I think I would stop bringing my goats to the fair if people would be allowed to bring in goats and show them 'from the trailer'. There's no control over how disease-free these goats are, and how clean the trailer is:they may come from an awful herd. In YOUR case they don't, but how do the people who brought their goats in on time know this? And a 4H fair is also education for the public, and I think it's very important for the kids to participate in this. My daughter spends hours by the goat pen explaining about goat keeping, goat health, showing, breeds, etc. That in itself is very educational for her and it is crucial that we show off our aggricultural hobbies/businesses to the public and put them in a positive daylight. At our fair you have to bring in your animals before a certain deadline and are not allowed to bring them home before 10 PM the last evening of the fair, so people visiting the fair with their kids don't have the disappointment of empty barns. 

I do wish the biosecurity at our fair was better, I like what they did at the Indiana Stae Fair: you don't get to drive your trailer to the barn directly. Instead you have to stop at a check point where you hand over your registration paper to an official who actually steps into your trailer (on clean disposable plastic boots and with disposable gloves) and checks every single goat's ID and health. THEN you are allowed to drive to the barn and unload.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

There's no health check here at my fair, even though there is suppose to be. I got a survey after the fair, and I hope they will be more strict about such things next year, because there was a large a group of underfed, snotty nosed, respiratory issue goats, right across the isle from mine...they also were right as folks walked in the barn, so everyone got to pet those goats first, before walking along petting all the others.  I saw the vet walk through once (I recognized him), but those goats still stayed. Other than that, the fair is really fun! I enjoy talking to the people who come by at milking time that want to learn more about dairy goats, and love letting all the kids milk my goats (after wiping their hands with baby wipes). You also meet people who may want to buy goats from you in the future, and if I was smart, I would have a business card, but I'm not, so I just write my website down for them.


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## sherridi (Jul 11, 2011)

My children LOVE 4H. And for them, too, the fair is the highlight of the summer. My husband and I decided before they wanted to get into showing (years ago) that no animal that set foot on the fairgrounds could come back to the farm. So, our kids show only market animals. Everything is sold at auction at the end of the week. It's hard when they get attached to the animal, but they understand if they want to show, that's the condition. It just wasn't worth the risk.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

A lot of people on this site show at open shows, and there really isn't a difference between open shows and 4H: same biosecurity issues. Plus if you ever buy a goat: no matter from which great CAE/CL free herd it comes: it's STILL a biosecurity issue, because there simply are other parasites/bacteria/diseases at that farm than at yours, and that can cause trouble, EVEN if both farms have apparently completely healthy animals. Vaccinate, keep your animals in good shape and nutrition status and then you give them the best chance to fight whatever comes at them. Stuff will come at them, wether it's through flies that really don't care about property lines, people coming to your place, airborn stuff, feed bought, goats introduced: there are so many ways to get a new 'bug' on your farm.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

The four years Linds was in 4-H we never came home with any issues. The times we took our animals to ADGA shows, there were no issues (other than one time our herd queen was cranky she had to share a stall with...A NUBIAN?! :crazy2). When we take our animals out into the public, with our education enrichment programs, there are never any issues. This fall when our 4-H kids took the goats to fair there were no issues, they were shaved and prepped and stressed well before fair. Thats 6 years of showing in different places that there were NO ISSUES. Why? that is the biggest thing you have to ask yourself here. Because they are healthy. And we take precautions. And take this comment into mind...

"...most of the things our goats can catch at fair are transferred by insect vectors...they can get them at home, too" (Michelle)

Aja-Sammati has been showing their goats at many fairs. Their kids are in 4-H also, especially DD #1. It is her passion. She is an exceptional showperson of whom has expanded and compounded her knowledge of not just her own species of animal but that of every other animal that she can. Her sister, DD#2, shows chickens and goats and other animals as well, it a way of life for them. California has fairs darn near all year long and the kids try to get in as many goat shows as possible. SO THAY CAN PROVE THEIR ANIMALS. So the public can see the animals, so they can sell their animals, so they can teach others about their animals.

We got into being leaders for two reasons. The interest in dairy goats has died pretty much in our area. Not only has ir pretty much died but the standard of dairy goats is low on the totem poll. We live in an agricultural area where beef, meat goats, and sheep rule. The dairy goat is not seen as a vital part of our community. But the more we are out there and showing people that the dairy goat can be vital makes the difference. It shows that dairy goats doen't have to look like the billygoats gruff, or that goat milk can be used for more than just milk. It shows folks that with just a couple of extra preventatives you can have a higher standard of health for goats. Even our area has become educated on having healthier meat goats just from the education they are getting from our demonstrations on dairy goats. People are starting to test for CAE, CL, Johnes (which by the way isn't as prevailent nor as easily spread), TB, and many other diseases. People are beginning to understand more about mineral deficiencies and how their animals health, deliveries, and milk quality are effected by the added mineral intake. People are now realizing that they have less problems when they feed alfalfa and grass together for a more balanced diet, feeding less grain, having less issues with grass tetany...all because of educating through 4-H and school enrichment programs.
The other reason is there are kids who would NEVER have the opportunity to enjoy these blessed creatures. Never have the opportunity to know how loving and forgiving of an animal they are. How trainable they are, or see one born. It is educational. Sciience, biology, nutritional, PE...all of these fall into raising goats  And on a personal note there is patience, understanding, working as a group, individual growth is expanded. Thats why Linds and I got into being leaders.

My point is, there will be bad apples in every bunch. And how you percieve the 4-H world and want your animals is your deal. There are many precautions that can be taken...and they are all at home when it is done. There is much we as goat keepers/breeders can teach the public but we have to be willing to go out and teach, to show them in person. If your not willing to "risk" that then protect your goats at home and leave them at home  JMHO

A famous saying I like is "to each their own".
Tam


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Trysta said:


> I think I would stop bringing my goats to the fair if people would be allowed to bring in goats and show them 'from the trailer'.


Why would you assume they would be exempt from the health checks? Of course they'll have to be inspected. Our fair is very overcrowded. There is no room for extra pens in between goats. They even had to set up an extra ten with pens, and every pen in the tent was full. I'm not sure they aren't even mixing herds in the pens. If you put a goat in one of those pens, they *will* be directly exposed to an outside herd. CL and pneumonia have been passed around even to the leaders herds. I don't think they aren't careful. They are just cramming in alot of goats - mostly of boers. I've worked too hard to risk that. If it ruffles too many feathers for us to get "special treatment", we'll show wethers. It would be a pity though, since we could bring goats with nice udders. Most of the dairy goats shown were dry!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I am very sorry I disagree with you, but there should be no special treatment for anyone in 4H. It's 4H. Everyone's equal, because it's for the *kids*. And the kid that has a tiny wether in the next pen can't help it that his/her mom did NOT breed dairy goats for years.

It sounds as if you do have reasons to worry and that your fair needs help. Show wethers for a year or more while you educate and make changes like some of the posters above did. I see 4H as a superb opportunity to promote dairy goats and ag, and that can only be done if you're out in the open. My does are taken very well care off at home and then at the fair they are true ambassadors of goathood as they patiently chew their hay while being petted and stand still while a series of amateurs proudly manages to squirt some milk at milking time. Ideal for the doe? Probably not, but they do not get hurt, and the humongous smiles on the kids' (and even teenagers' and parents') faces when they accomplish 'milking a goat' is worth it and it's so great to see kids then come back each day showing their friends 'this is the goat I milked. She eats hay and gets grain when you milk her' etc. That's dairy goat public relations at work! I love that!!

Over the 5 years my daughter has shown her goats (and believe me, we have worried and talked to the superintendent about other pens with sick or mishandled goats) so much has changed at our fair and the goat club has grown, the animals are healthier and better taken care off and the amount of actual MILKING goats has increased from 0 to just ours and 1 more, to now some serious competition (last year we had a class of 10 milking 3 and 4 year olds. All clipped, shiny and healthy. That's progress. Kudos to Tam for being a 4H leader, that's awesome!!!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I understand your position, but having been that kid in the next pen, I guess I've just come to grips with the fact that parents do have alot of influence. My kids will benefit from having a mom that raised goats for years before they reached 4-H age, and that's ok. Kids whose moms sew have an edge when they submit a sewing project. I don't consider the trailer idea special treatment as the leader mentioned it to me as a possible option because of the overcrowding issue. It was an idea. We may only do wethers, and bring in milk does to club meetings for demonstrations. One thing I don't get with the wethers though is what you do if they win, and you've got to take it to state fair. Then what do you do with him for a month if you don't want him back on your property?

I do think the most important thing for kids to learn from this process is concern for animal welfare.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

In our state registration deadline for state fair is way before our fair even starts, so wether you win or not is not an issue. You choose to go to state fair with an animal, but with a project/poster you have to win. So in your case, if you don't want your animal back, you just can't go to state fair, or you'd have to keep the animal somewhere else for a while.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Ok, I wondered how that was working, as some counties had their fairs after the state fair. So could you raise one wether for state fair and another for county?


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

One of my friends is a 4-H leader as well as the goat superintendent for the fair in Helena. She tries to teach the kids to get their animals from healthy farms and teaches them how to care for their animals. The only reason I don't show my goats in the open classes at that fair is that it is not sanctioned by ADGA and overlaps with our state fair which is a sanctioned show. As far as risk to my goats, I'd feel safeer showing them there than at an ADGA show out of state where I've seen goats with both abcesses and scars.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

For our dairy goats in OUR county: you have to register the does you want to take to state fair in April or Early May. As far as I know those animals have to be shown at your local fair, too, but I'm not 100% sure about that. You do need a paper signed by your local extension agent saying that you did not sell any of the animals you registered for state fair at you county's 4H auction (so you can't substitute an animal). We've never shown wethers at state fair, I have no clue if they have to shown locally first. Ask your county's extension agent, they'll be glad to help you and can answer all your 4H questions.


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 15, 2008)

I had never seen any issues at the county or state fair until this year and this was the state fair open show had a farm that used to raise mini's in standard breed lamanchas and nubians their goats were mal nourished. My first year in goats I did not know about cocci prevention and had some thin goats, but these goats this farm was showing were bone thin and I mean ribs and backbone. The judge tried to be delicate about body condition while judging but you could tell he was trying to be very polite. Every class they showed in they placed last and for the same reason.Other than that I have never seen any other issues and I pay strict attention and have for 3 years. I trust the fairs enough that we will most probably be showing next year. My kids are not in 4-H so looking around for someone to teach them showmanship.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

For those who like a copy of our contract please message me, I have already shared it with one person. I am more than willing to share. This was written for us and can be tweaked or changed to suit the owner/child/parent. Each project is different so please keep that in mind.
Tam


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I'd like to see it, Tammy. Our fair has improved a lot, but I'd sure like to see how you guys make sure the kids commit to their project! Never thought of making a contract!


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

skeeter said:


> Would be good to find out who has access to the animals at night if they have to be left. Our fairgrounds use prisoners from the nearby medium security prison to clean and do maintainance at night. One year 2 men did unspeakable things to all the jr. doelings. The ones who didn't die were ruined way beyond ever being bred. It was not a happy fair year for the children that found that in the morning.


OMG!! 
That's horrific!!! Those poor babies! All of them goats and children!! So, yea that was a great idea someone had!! I hope to hell they don't still do that!! I'm so sorry! 
One big reason why I won't show, just sayn, you never know who's touching your animals!! I'd be sleepin in a cot next to them!!!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Most fairs lock their barn doors and only the barn super has keys. They are responsible for checking in on the animals. Who ever had that awful thing happen, it was due to the fault of the security detail on the inmates. I just have a hard time believing inmate would be set free in a barn, not that it didn't happen...just saying there would be some pretty serious repercussions to the security guards on duty.
Tam


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

The fairs around here have inmates come in and clean, but not until after the animals are gone. The owners are responsible for cleaning while the animals are there. I've never seen a fair barn that had lockable doors...just alleyways. The barns I've been to have usually been pretty open, to keep the air movin'.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2012)

You can betcha that those inmates were suppose to be monitored.. they don't generally just let them run around loose without a supervisor.. that being said.. the supervisor was not doing his job and if they had called the prison and raised a fuss and or the media.. they would have taken care of it.. I worked in the prison system here in Michigan for 25 years.. Not all do the jobs they should.. sad but true..


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I don't think there are doors on our barns. Definately not for the overflow tents.  I believe the goat leaders camp there though. I can't imagine they are camping with inmates sweeping aisles. That is a pretty horrific story.


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

The men were caught and punished. The supervisors were punished. The biggest problem is that they have no goat barn. The goats were in pens under the open-sided outdoor horse arena. Anyone could get to them. 
I honestly don't know if it got any better. Because I live right on the county line I started taking the kids to show in the other county. They have much better facilities and clubs.


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## supermom (Feb 24, 2009)

For us, we show other animals, but not my dairy goats. I have seen the barns and seen other goat owners not caring at all about CL. It's not worth the risk to me.


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