# Snotty noses on snotty goats



## cariboujaguar

Some of my brats have come down with 'colds' so once again we start a round of "I was told..." So here goes... I was told that any amt. of discharge, unless clear, means my goats have pneumonia. Is this true? I have penn and biomycin coming today (I also have Terramycin-343® Soluble Powder in my cabinet now) Should I start anyone with symptoms on a round of Penn, Bio... should I treat their water... should I let them be? What is or isn't safe for pregger does? 1 of them a week over due...

It's one buck, one nigi and 3 nubians with snotty noses, yellow to green mixed with clear and they are coughing so it must be in the lungs too... they have awesome sheltars, they arn't exposed to the elements at all, so I'm not sure how they got it... what can I do to avoid this next year? What did I do wrong to let them get sick? 
Thanks!


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## Sondra

Well naxel is my drug of choice for pneumonia second is the Biomycin so start them all today on Vit C first and the Biomycin when you get it. Could be shelters or urine soaked and it is caused by the amonia they are breathing in. If you kneel down in the straw or bedding and your knee gets wet this is your problem Closed in shelter they lay down and breath this stuff into their lungs thus pneumonia.


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## cariboujaguar

It's not wet at all, beleive it or not... I lay down with my goats all the time, to cuddle, as stupid as that sounds and their bedding is clean and dry as a bone. The floor is raised with dirt, gravel and sand a good foot to 2 feet above the normal ground so water drains right under them. I have 13 goats in a 60 foot by 20 foot stall 4 bucks in a 10 foot by 15 foot stall and 3 inside goats in a quarantine 15X15 pen. All of them have an acre of pasture except the quarantined. It doesn't smell like amonia at all and it has great air circulation without being drafty... and we treat the ground with lime between cleanings to help break the manure down....
I don't have Vit C, would childrens chewables work? I could buy them some of those... How much Bio per lb, once I get it?


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## Judys

Vaccinate for pneumonia its cheap


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## cariboujaguar

prairiedog said:


> Vaccinate for pneumonia its cheap


it really works??? I have a hard time believing that works... Why can't people be vaccinated for it? I thought it was an advanced cold? How can you vaccinate against a cold? I would LOVE more info on this, thanks!


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## Judys

well you can't vaccinate for a cold but you can for pnuemonia then at least you don't have to worry about it being that


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## Sondra

yes alot of people use the vaccine and alot of people use the kids chewable 
I give 1500 mg to start and a 1000 mg thru out the day when signs of cold /alergy etc. Probably could give more but that is what I use on myself so just use it on the goats.


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## cariboujaguar

So what brand of Vaccine do you guys use? It gurantee's they do NOT have pnuemonia? Is it 100% or is it uncertain or what? I JUST sent my Jeffer's order! ARGH! It never ends does it? You always need SOMETHING! LOL


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## mill-valley

The vaccine is for pasteurella...one of the many things that can cause pneumonia. It may help but like the flu vaccine, it will not entirely eliminate pneumonia. Worth a try in this situation IMO. Jeffer's has one in the sheep and goat section, can't remember the brand but it's licensed for goats. Link to vaccine at Jeffer's

And for what it's worth...believe it needs to be kept in the fridge so they would've shipped it seperately anyway.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Goats don't catch colds.

I treat runny noses with vitamin C, Just buy the big jug from wallmart and crush them in my blender, giving each a teaspoon or so on the milkstand, or sprinkled over their feed, some will eat it in pill form. Bo-se and see what the underlying cause of the pnemonia is.

If they are running a temp I will start them on Naxcel and banamine, no matter what if you are going to treat with biomycin you need the banamine from the vet anyway, it stops the build up of scar tissue in the lung.

Any 200 mg tetracycline, biomycin etc. is 3.5 cc per 100 pounds given once a day for 5 days or 24 hours after the last symptoms dissappear. In cases of fever you can move to every 12 hour shots, and you want to give all OTC shots subq.

If you aren't selling or using milk you may want to also start them on feed through tetracycline, the info is in goatkeeping 101. Tim posted it for us, aueromycin.

Alot of us do vaccinate for pasturella pnemonia the main pnemonia diagnosed in goats, but it's for well animals, so you might want to think about doing this, this spring. Vicki


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## Haglerfarm

That is something I was wondering. I have the pasteurella vaccine. I wanted make sure it needed to be used on well animals. I did not know if it could be used on one that might be getting sick or not. All of mine are well, but was wondering for in the future.
Also, at what age do you start the vaccine. I have a big show coming up. I am wondering if I can vaccinate my kids before going. And what would be the dose for them.
Les


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## NubianSoaps.com

There are no doses for vaccinations of anykind...well I mean lower for kids, more for big adults etc...it's the directions on the botttles. You don't give your does more CD&T than you give your kids.

I don't show kids, so my kids are vaccinated for pasturella before being bred (7 months) then as adult does they are vaccinated every spring before appraisal or the first show out. I also vaccinate pre kidding my colostrum cows  the older does I will be using colostrum from, and then they won't get their spring vaccination.

Make sure you give it away from the front or rear legs, it can cause swelling and you dont' want to restrict movement. I haven't heard much about the new pasturellas for goats specifically causing the swellings our old One Shot or Sure Shot cattle vaccines we used for years causing in some goats.

Make sure the vaccine is for only pasturella haemoticulla and multicidia, goats don't get BRV and the other alphabet soup pnemonias like cattle do, and it's why the nasalgen doesn't work on goats...although there are those who swear they do  Vicki


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## Haglerfarm

OK, I have to take my kids to a big show the first weekend of May. Wanted to get them vaccinated. They have to be fed and I will be gone 3 or 4 days, so they have to go. Have no one at home to do it.
I figured they might get the adult dose, but wasn't sure. I have the Colorado serum vaccine. Really hate lumps, but I give them over the ribcage anyhow. I have been pretty lucky in the past, but have had kids with snotty noses about a week after a show, wanted to prevent this if I could.
Plus do the adult does.
I have never used the Nasalgen, had thought about it. I do not way back when I went to my very first show I came home and had very, very sick goats. Took about a month to get them all well, I did not lose any, but they sure looked bad. they all went off feed, had coughs, snotty noses. then of course since they were compromised I had to deal with coccidia and worm outbreaks. They came though Ok, but it was a mess. Never have had that happen again.
I do know we sent off blood samples and nasal discharge, especially on one resistent one. It was BRSV. 
Naxel did not touch it. It had to run its course as it was a virus, just had to do supportive stuff.
They all came through with flying colors. For a few years my kids would get a mild case when weaned as they got some immunity from their milk. They would get bad coughs, but would clear up and be fine. They built up an immunity.\Haven't had any cases in years. Thank goodness.
Les


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## NubianSoaps.com

Here nearly all diagnosis will contain a horse pnemonia or BRV (bovine respiratory virus) unless you specifically tell them you have goats. In the 90's it was lots of interstesial pnemonia, which we now know is the equivalant of having pneumocystics and being HIV positive. Like the missdiagnosis of HC and liverfluke, nearly all pnemonia that is passed at shows and on shipping is pasturella. And you can get a positive culture just on a nasal swab of a heatlhy doe.

My exporter had me using Nasalgen for years  Vicki


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## stoneyheightsfarm

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> In the 90's it was lots of interstesial pnemonia, which we now know is the equivalant of having pneumocystics and being HIV positive.


Vicki, I know you told me that in the goat I had die that had interstitial pneumonia that the first thing to check for was CAE. I believe they did a CAE test w/the necropsy and that came back negative, but they said that his "severe gastrointestinal parasitism" is what lead to the pneumonia. I've also seen you mention that pneumonia can be "opportunistic" which would explain how lots of cocci & strongyles could lead to that. What I am wondering is, could pasteurella overgrowth cause interstitial pneumonia? The goat in question, to my knowledge, had not been vaccinated for pasteurella. He was put in a freezer for a couple days before we could get him to the lab for the necropsy, and the vet said that b/c of that, they couldn't get a culture of anything to grow. While I'm on top of the parasite situation now, I'm wondering if it could have been pasteurella that I was dealing with?? I certainly see a need for giving the vaccine for shipping stress (as I've had a couple of cases of that, too, that wound up spreading thru my herd) but in my effort to "figure it all out" I'm wondering if it is a possibility that pasteurella could cause the interstitial pneumonia. (since I got no other answers or leads!) It was very fast acting--a matter of hours. Every vet I've talked to has said that by the time I saw symptoms, there was probably nothing that could have been done to save him, so prevention from as many different angles as I can get is what I'm after.


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## Haglerfarm

So, I guess I go ahead and give the adult dose. Want to make they have time to many antibodies. I am guessing it will take at least 2 weeks to do that. I was not sure how young of babies I could give it to. Some kids are a month or so old. some will be fairly new, like the ones born yesterday and still some due before the show.
Sorry for all the questions.
Thanks for the help,
Les


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## cariboujaguar

ok, so I need banamine and Bo-Se still... do I have to wait to treat them with Biomycin until I have banamine? Why does Biomycin cause scar tissue?

So I am gathering that a runny nose ALWAYS means pneumonia and should be taken seriously... goats can't get allergies or 'the sniffles' as 'I was told' LOL


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## NubianSoaps.com

Ashley, runny nose if it's not from the dusty wind like today, kite flying weather! than yes it's pasturella overgrowth. But a health goat can easily treat this on their own with some antihistamine or vitamin C. Just like us, you don't go on antibiotics for a runny nose, unless you become congested, get pneumonia symptoms (fever,chills) or a bronchitis cough starts. So unless I had more than runny nose, I don't do much but wait and watch.

Biomycin does not cause scar tissue, it is an antibiotic that helps the goats immunity take care of the bacteria by keeping the amounts low...now if it's a virus antibiotic would only be supportive therapy. No antibiotic will kill all the bacteria that causes the disease, why some get over things quickly and others have problems that linger on, immunity. Banamine not only brings down fever, calms guts, but also it is an antiinflammatory which will keep the scar tissue in the lung to a minimum by shrinking the swellings of the inflammation in the lung. Yes start your antibiotic as soon as you decide to but get yourself banamine to keep on hand.

Les I have never given the vaccine to anyone that young, sorry no help here.

Billie, i remember that, I doubted the diagnosis then, because it was just soo classic pasturella. Goats rarely die of the initial cause of the problem, parasites and anemia in your case, the weakened system then can't keep normal levels of pasturella in the nose down, it overgrows and you have pneumonia. It's why we put does who are down, meningeal worm, pregnancy problems etc....on prophylactic treatments of sulfa and antibiotic because pasturella is so opportunistic in a goat in a weakened state.

I think there is great value in vaccination, mostly so kids get the best colostrum you have available in your older vaccinated does, even if you dam raise, tube an ounce or so of older does colostrum into your young does kids. Plus with their immunity at it's best, when they do come up against bacterial pneumonia at shows, they come home and are treated with antihistamine, others even on antibiotic die. Vicki


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## stoneyheightsfarm

Just to clarify, you doubted the diagnosis of "interstitial pneumonia" but thought it was pasteurella pneumonia? Makes sense. In fact, if I remember correctly, "interstitial pneumonia" wasn't on the necropsy report--that's just the conclusion that local folks came to since it acted so so quickly and had no fever. The actual necropsy report was vague and said "pulmonary disease." Would a pasteurella pneumonia be able to act that quickly (fine the night before, bad in the morning, dead by dinnertime) and not have a fever? Vet had also told me that b/c goats are prey animals that they will often hide really bad stuff until they're on death's door. I also remember it rained really hard that night, and it was the goats' first rain in a barn with a metal roof--very loud--so maybe stress contributed?

So you use sulfa for the cocci and antibiotic for the pasturella, or both for the pasturella, when a goat is in a weakened state?


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## NubianSoaps.com

I think most don't diagnose a sick goat early enough, and the dead in the morning is usually really a doe who is been off awhile, and nothing brings down a fever like death  Sorry my vets joke  It also depends on which pasturella is the problem, I believe it's the multicidia that gives you snot, soo much soo that does with their heads down will have snot touching the ground.

Yes a sulfa for both bacterial pnemonia and cocci, and an antibiotic for pnemonia. Worming also. Vicki


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## stoneyheightsfarm

I was a 14 day old goat owner when this happened, so it's certainly possible that I missed something prior to that day, but after visiting this goat several times a week for nearly a year before bringing him home, I can't say as though I saw anything different prior to the morning of his death. Obviously, I should have had a fecal run much sooner, though, and it sounds like the pasteurella vaccine probably could have been a life-saver as well. I've been putting off ordering that, but it looks like it needs to be much closer to the top of my list!


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