# Doe cycling or aborting? PICS



## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

This is Spice, due March 13, in 7 weeks.

Three year old, 3rd freshener.

First kidding: Single dead buck, 13 days premature, traumatic assisted delivery with 8 days of antibiotics

Second kidding: Triplet bucks, no problem.

However, the whole time I milked her this last time, she would have a clear spit looking drip from her vulva that would dribble down, small amount. Never an odor, always clear.

Today she is overly affectionate with wet tail and pink vulva, wants me to rub her head alot. AND her ligaments are loose.

Bucks are in adjoining pen and she and they are igoring each other.

She is one of the herd queens and not one to get beat up by others. The pic angles are weird because I was holding the tail and camera at the same time, also i cropped to make pics smaller.

What's up?


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Anyone?

I have this doe bred to Kelton (again)...and REALLY want a doeling. If she is cycling I have 3 bucks here, 2 LM and 1 MM, so one of them could certainly do the job, I hope, and at least get her in milk. However, at this late date I am not sure that I want to breed her....summer kids and all. 

I don't know what I should do with this one and I guess I need to know something soon.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Except for her udder I would say her vulva looks more like she just kidded, is going to kid...rather than in heat. Even my older does with their saggy baggy vuvlas when due to kid do not look like this when they are mearly in heat. Can you run a blood test in, to see if she is indeed bred? Then if not, I would lute her and breed her on that first heat, because she could have a cloud burst...certainly not a normal vulva for a doe who is not due to kid. Does retain that tipped up appearance until quite aged.

When you have abnormal things like discharge etc...always treat early in the year before breeding, this way you have time to lute, do a uterine wash and antibiotics, and then breed the following heat. Vicki


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Please forgive me for not knowing, but what is a cloud burst ?


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

I have a doe who's vulva started to look like this a few weeks back, also swollen and puffy with loose ligs. Her due date is 2/14 and she has me second guessing that, wondering if she got bred earlier. However no discharge. I have two other goats due the same week and they look nothing like her. All were preg checked with biotracking and confirmed pregnant. She has that same stretched out look like she could pop a kid right out. Weird! I wondered if kid position was causing some unusual pressure or something. I'm clueless!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I have one that looks like that ahead of time and prolases when laying down and has had quads the last three years.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I just came back in from evening rounds. She does indeed look swollen like a doe fixing to kid and her udder has "body" and weight to it. She seems to enjoy me fooling around with her tail and hind end like they do when I assist their births (my does are wusses when in labor). She just stands their and lets me manipulate her tail and such. The other does run when I touch their tails and seem put off by it.

I searched the goat yard for any signs of fetuses, just in case, but the Pyrs go in and out of the pen at will through their secret dog hole and would have disposed of anything. There are chickens that have a nest in the pen and the dogs go in everyday to dispose of the eggs.

It is getting cold and it is raining and windy. We will have no lights hooked up outside til i need them for kidding so i can't get blood tonight, certainly can't do it alone today.

I sure hate this, this is the main doe I want a doeling from. I guess she knows she may be on the sale list after she produces one.

About her udder...this doe gets grotesquely HUGE prior to kidding, wouldn't she bag up more if she aborted this late in gestation?

And about what Sondra said...since this doe had triplets last year without BoSe and this year DID have BoSe, is there a chance in heck that she is just poochy from high multiples (even though she doesn't look that big around)...grasping at straws here.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

She doesn't look to have quads Diane.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I know :nooo

I am simply trying to will her pregnancy back to good health.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

All my does are now at 100 days, and you can feel udder on all of them, you can see udder on most of them and no if they aborted today they would not come into milk...you could possibly milk them and bring them into milk but certainly no record lactation.

A cloud burst is a pregnancy that is just fluid, the doe although she has all the classic sypmtoms of pregnancy doesn't come into heat, doesn't come into milk, and delivers fluid. Looking back her whole pregnancy is a question...Vicki


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

So if yall were betting women, it would be a cloud burst then?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Blood test, no question then, cloudburst or not bred she will show open. Ship it out Monday they will call you Thursday or Friday and email you also. Vicki


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks, I'll see if my goat holder is up to it...he gets so queasy, may need to find a stand in.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

put her on the stand Diane and pull it.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

You haven't seen my stand. The head holding part no longer restrains them. They just stand there with their heads in place but it doesn't hold them. I could tie it closed with a rope I guess...I'll give it a try and see if she can get out.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's so much eaiser with someone hold the head up really high  Come on Billy! Just look the other way. Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

By the amount of WET on her tail hairs, I agree with Vicki. Either cloudburst or abort. Blood test before you give any drugs...that's the safest way this time of year.
Kaye


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## MiddleRiver (Oct 30, 2007)

Wow i never had any idea there was such a thing as a cloud burst - how common in goats is this ? Thanks for explaining :+)

Feral Nature - i'm curious about whats up with your doe, and wish you a good outcome :+)


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

MiddleRiver, it is happening to another doe. I am just horrified as I have never had anything like this happen before. Only one aborted pregnancy out here before, 2 years ago and that was from a doe ramming a bred doeling into s wooden fence...(I think).


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm sorry


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh my gosh, You guys quit having all these problems this year! stop it right now! I come on here for STRESS Relief!


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm sorry... I had 1 doe have a cloudburst last yr...


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm sorry, Diane.
We had an abortion storm earlier this year. Lost five of the January pregnancies.
I was not able to rebreed the does that lost pregnancies yet. The barn has to be empty for calves and cows, so I cannot breed again until late February-March and hope they will cycle still.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Roseanna, fortunately I have 12 does...11 are dairy, 1 Boer. Out of the 11 dairy, I will certainly and hopefully have enough of those retain their pregnancies and give me milk this spring. Any that are open this spring may be able to still be bred back fairly early. Last year and the year before, several of my LaManchas began cycling in April. it seems like march is the only month now that I have not had a LaMancha cycle. Granted, I have not attempted to breed one in April but they do have an earlier and longer breeding season than Swiss goats.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Roseanna,
Were you able to stop the abortions? I didn't hear or don't remember.
Kaye


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

Sorry. I didn't update you on that situation. They stopped.
I never did get the drugs out there. I bought the crumbles and have them, but I didn't get the does sorted and the abortions had stopped when I finally got things sorted.
After following up with more research and the normal presentations at birth with the placenta afterwards rather than the placentas wrapped around the fetuses, it is looking like it was mostly the Brat {Giselle} with horns at fault. She is leaving this year to go to her new home (where I will monitor the situation closely) along with another horned brat {Esther} from this herd, and Piglet {Gieslle's daughter from November '06} along with whatever kids (minus one doeling out of Giselle I will retain) the three produce this season. Those will be her only goats. Giselle is currently in the barn and due tomorrow. She is behaving fine in the cramped space.
I will be using the feed through crumbles as preventative next year, just in case though and probably feed it to the next group of does due.
We are over crowded and that probably had a bit to do with it. The pregnancies lost were mostly does lower on the totem pole. Two of which I saw slammed by the brat days prior to slipping their pregnancies.
She did end up penned in the penalty box at one point after we started seeing pregnancies lost.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Roseanna, why don't you get their horns removed? Or band them in this cold no fly time?Vicki


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

After seeing some mature goats having their horns removed in 2002, I swore I would never put a mature goat through that. They were not banded but he used the OB wire to saw them off. I fully trust the guy who did that too since he has dehorned three mature cows for us and did all of our disbudding on goats and calves until this year.
The person purchasing the goats wants horned goats, so it seems like a good combination. She is my boss who has an Organic garden/farm and does CSAs. She comes to me for input on her livestock.
We will be left with two horned does (both brought in horned) and a horned buck. We lost our only home grown horned doe this winter. She was never a problem with her horns. The buck has me considerably worried since the last horned buck made me bleed and our first buck (also horned) got to the point where he chased dad.
I have considered the banding method, but am honestly uneasy and a bit worried about it. When we left horns on intact market bucks ( :sigh ) I had a buck kid whose horn base became infected and one time I grabbed him by the horns and it came loose. Makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it.
The buck is an April kid, currently at my aunt and uncle's breeding their four does they purchased from us. 
The huge bruise on my shin from Midge's horns definitely have me wondering about it again. Since both does are not pregnant currently I'll discuss it with dad.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Without knowledge of pulling bleeders sawing off adult goats horns is really chancy of them bleeding to death because they bleed into the nasal cavity which you can't control. Other than a vet doing that I wouldn't even attempt that, boy when it comes to horns goats certainly aren't cows  But banding, I would do it again in a heart beat. Glad you found them good homes who know their history and want horns. Vicki


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I wanted to band Franny's horrid scurs this winter but with all this going on, now I can't. The vet did hers and what a poor job he did. The ones I did have nice round heads. Franny's are at a length now that she gets caught in the fence occasionally. Scares me to death. Plus 2 bucks have scurs and they will need attention one day.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"However, the whole time I milked her this last time, she would have a clear spit looking drip from her vulva that would dribble down, small amount. Never an odor, always clear."

So she has had this discharge since kidding last in 2007?


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

RE: the horns...banding didnt work for us, have heard the same form others. Should you ever feel rich, A&M surgically removed Bandera's horn (not scur, but full-blown horn) and they did a fabulous job. It was around $70.

(Just coming on here Diane and reading this thread now, after getting your PM)


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Qvrfullmidwife said:


> "However, the whole time I milked her this last time, she would have a clear spit looking drip from her vulva that would dribble down, small amount. Never an odor, always clear."
> 
> So she has had this discharge since kidding last in 2007?


Yes, but since it was see-through-clear and so very tiny of an amount, I thought it was normal for her. never anything but clear slime or saliva looking and so little of it. I just thought it was peculiar to her, contractions causing it when she let down her milk...never a temp as i so closely monitor temps in the milkroom because of these being heavy milkers and possiblity of hypocalcemia. So what do you think that was?


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Banding horns can be very successful if you put bands on mature horns. The banding doesn't stop horn growth, just removes the horn that is there. So if you band young stock with actively growing horns, then no, banding will result in bad scurs.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

We banded a full grown horn. We filed a grove down low. The bands dug in until they were no longer visible, we added fresh bands until it reached a point where we had a buck with a nicely full blown horn with a deep, deep grouve around teh base but the horn itself never loosened, never did anything but sport a nice deep grove. I have read enough accounts to know that banding does work for some, but also enough to know that banding does not work for ALL and we were part of the "does not work" camp. Based on our experience in the future we will 1)be more agressive regarding disbudding and 2)if we have scurs we will consider banding but for horns we will go the same route that we went again if it is a goat that is valuable to our overall program.


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## samuel1 (Nov 29, 2011)

I should know this, but when and why do you give BoSe to a goat? I just bought a small vial of it, was told to give orally to kids right after birth, after nursing...to prevent pneumonia or something. Never given to any goat yet. Thank you.


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## samuel1 (Nov 29, 2011)

Why and when do you give BoSe to an adult goat? I just bought a small vial of it. Never given it before.


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## LittleBits (Aug 6, 2013)

This thread is 5 years old...

I give BoSe twice a year, a month before breeding and a month before kidding. It may differ from what you need to do for your area. 
1cc/ml per 40lbs subQ.

BoSe is to prevent white muscle disease. You can give kids 1/4cc subQ at birth if needed.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Some info on the benefits of selenium supplementation: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/seleniumdeficiency.html


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