# Culling and milk production



## Daniel Babcock (May 28, 2008)

The thread about herd replacements and culling was very informative for me and helped me to clarify some management decisions relative to what I will do with buck kids.

As I understand it, does who have more kids typically produce more milk. Is this correct? 

If so does the increased milk come from the goats natural response to gestation and birth of a greater quantity of kids, or it is a response to the kids drinking more milk, because there are more kids thus necessitating the doe to produce more.

Does raising kids natural vs. preventative make any difference on the dams production? 

I am interested in getting my does to produce as much as they can. Aside from quality and consistency of feed, milking time, persons milking etc are there any other recommendations for helping a doe reach her max in production.


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## Leo (Mar 10, 2008)

> does who have more kids typically produce more milk. Is this correct?


Yes, So when goat A milks x-amount with one kids, she should produce more milk in compensation for extra kids/mouths to feed.



> If so does the increased milk come from the goats natural response to gestation and birth of a greater quantity of kids or it is a response to the kids drinking more milk, because there are more kids thus necessitating the doe to produce more


Okay, I think this really depends on the line. Let's call crappy milker goat A,and good milker goat B.

Goat A: she kids...her milk production would increase if she had more kids,say 3 kids instead of 2. But whether her kids were nursing or I was milking her it really didn't increase her production.(I bought her as an adult). So If I milked her 2x a day I would get 3#/day,if I milked her 3-4x/day, I would get 3#/day, just broken up amoungst those milking. :sigh When goat A had triplets, I pulled them, milked 2x/day and produced as I had wanted her to for many years, but always made excuses for her. The next year, she threw twins and back to her disappointing production amount. So for her line, milk amount is in direct correlation with kids produced.

Goat B: she kids...her milk production would improve each year, she's only thrown twins so I can only *assume* it would increase with demand(more kids) due to kidding. With her, the more I milk, the more milk I get,give her free choice alfalfa,I would get .5# additional milk, fresh clover browse adds 1-1.5# additional milk per milking. She has a strong will to milk, and very textbook.  Whereas Goat A I bought as an adult milker and her milk production would drop after two months, it took me two years to get her to stop that! :mad And where you milked her more,left the kids on her, feed her free choice this or that, it just wouldn't increase!
So that's my experience. I hope I was able to help. 
Megan


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Gentics are 15%
Eviromental is 5%
Management is 80%
Kaye


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## Leo (Mar 10, 2008)

:yeahthat Lol! That's a much easier way to say it. 
Megan


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I know feeding practices have alot to do with does who make lots of milk. Early last summer, my friend ran out of alfalfa hay, so she started feeding alfalfa pellets free choice out of creep feeders. Her does started producing lots of milk. When her new crop of alfalfa/barley mix hay was ready to feed, she switched them over to that and their production dropped. These are does with the genetics to make lots of milk.
In my herd, genetics do play a part in how much my does produce. I have one doe who had triplets, but didn't make lots of milk as a 3 year old second freshener. Her dam isn't a very good producer either. I keep her because she is has the most correct shaped mammary in my herd as well as good dairy character and general appearance. I breed her to bucks out of lines that put milk in the bucket. I have a yearling FF who had twins and makes more milk as a yearling and has a longer lactation as well. These does live and eat together. So...I wouldn't make the decision to keep or cull a doe solely on how many kids she has. There's alot more than that which goes into my decision. Kathie


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## blackthorn (Sep 6, 2008)

Yeah more babies=more milk, however this relative as stated above (bad doe more kids less milk than good doe less kids). And you always get the most milk without kids on, but the does actually produces more milk with suckling kids........but the kids get all of that extra not you! LOL this is why dairys take babies off.
Vanessa


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## Leo (Mar 10, 2008)

> So...I wouldn't make the decision to keep or cull a doe solely on how many kids she has. There's alot more than that which goes into my decision.


Very true. For my herd the larger impact on _quantity _of milk is _quality _of diet. That being said, Free choice alfalfa hay/pellets, minerals tailored to the area, fresh, clean water, and really good browse(not grass).
Megan


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And although there are really good udders on does with huge poundage, normal does who carry huge amounts of milk have less than ideal mammaries. Of course compounded by the fact that they are only milking twice a day. Vicki


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## Daniel Babcock (May 28, 2008)

Kathie-

I was of the opinion that I would get more milk from goats fed free choice quality alfalfa hay than those fed free choice alfalfa pellets. 

In my very limited experience I found that they tend to eat more (poundage) of the hay than the pellets?

And I concluded correctly or not that that would lead to greater rumen capacity, more calcium/phosphorus intake etc AND ultimately more milk? 

Opinions? 

Thanks


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I guarantee you will get more milk production out of pellets than you do hay. 

I did,and have the milk tests to prove it. BUT -- my hay is "free" so when pellets went over $300 a ton -- forget it -- I am feeding my hay off my farm, period.

Vicki is absolutely right on udders -- when you have a doe like Agatha that did 30# on her verification test -- you simply cannot expect a medial to be able to hold up that much weight for long. Big milkers tend to sag as they age (much like humans, lol) I deliberately NEVER breed Agatha to a high production buck. Not that it matters, since her daughter still did 4000# herself, but I try, lol. I like the 3-4000# milkers -- get closer to 5000# and it really is almost too much.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2009)

Tracy in Idaho said:


> I guarantee you will get more milk production out of pellets than you do hay.


I found the complete opposite to be true Tracy. My does don't milk nearly as well on alfalfa pellets as they do alfalfa hay. I have the milk records to prove it. 

Go figure!

Sara


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

LOL...Tracy lives by one the southern suppliers for alfalfa pellets~Standley. :sigh If I could get THAT quality of alfalfa hay, I'd be feeding that hay over pellets, too.
My girls just didn't do as well in the production dept. on the pellets as they do on the hay, either.? And even here, the hay is cheaper than the pellets and it's trucked in to the supplier.?

Just call me *old school*, but I just can't logically feed a _ruminating_ animal straight pelletized anything (grain/fodder) without a nagging little voice in the back of my head screaming *_scratch-factor _ in the rumen". And to get technical...2 1/2" long.

To build healthy big rumens...I think the article in goats 101 and a post by Ken (both very similar) pretty well sums that up.

Ggggrrrr....after my experience with the *1st & LAST * dam raised kid (buckling) here in over 20 yrs....even IF it produces a few #'s more milk, it's not worth the headache of a kid in the with the milkers for me!
JMO
Kaye


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2009)

Kaye White said:


> Just call me *old school*, but I just can't logically feed a _ruminating_ animal straight pelletized anything (grain/fodder) without a nagging little voice in the back of my head screaming *_scratch-factor _ in the rumen". And to get technical...2 1/2" long.
> 
> To build healthy big rumens...I think the article in goats 101 and a post by Ken (both very similar) pretty well sums that up.
> 
> Kaye


I agree 100% Kaye.

I will not feed my goats alfalfa pellets in place of hay. It just doesn't seem logical to me. We are feeding ruminants. 

JMO,
Sara


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, I should admit -- mine had BOTH pellets and hay at the same time, so that probably makes a difference huh?  
I did get more poundage when they had free choice pellets in front of them though. Greed factor maybe?

We've actually sold hay to Standlee -- they make nice pellets no doubt. I wish I could still afford them, lol.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Well, I should admit -- mine had BOTH pellets and hay at the same time, so that probably makes a difference huh?


 :rofl Ya' think?? :really

To get the kind of #'s you got...though, you were doing LOTS more than just the fiber. It's a fine line to get production of those amounts *AND* keep the animals healthy. You too, Sara.

In my honest opinion, if you're wanting to bring your animals up to their genetic potential then you need to be asking these two gals what they were doing in the management dept...not guessing. They have the *official * records to back them up in their management. Guessing will get you LOTS of trouble down the road.
Just my opinon.
Kaye


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Kaye White said:


> > Well, I should admit -- mine had BOTH pellets and hay at the same time, so that probably makes a difference huh?
> 
> 
> :rofl Ya' think?? :really


Maybe? :biggrin

Even when I was feeding mostly grass hay with the pellets, I still got higher milk numbers though. So who knows? I do know that I can't afford to feed them anymore -- especially when I can get as much hay as I want right out of my fields!


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## dq (Aug 15, 2008)

I don't buy the "hay is better than pellets" bit. Looking at the contents of the rumen of the wether we butchered a few weeks ago I could see no difference in how pellets look when soaked with water. once it is chewed its the same. I've never had enough milkers to have any formal experiments but I can tell you that production definetly goes up with the pellets over the hay with mine. and when I factor in the waste the pellets are cheaper (of course I can't bale my own alfalfa!) they eat alot more of the pellets too. no problem with rumen development imo either. of course almost all alfalfa around here is trucked in and I suspect we don't get first pick.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2009)

dq said:


> I don't buy the "hay is better than pellets" bit.


Leah, how long have you been on offical DHIR? Just curious.

I have only been on test for 10 or so years with official milk records. I can tell you that my goats milk way more on alfalfa hay than they ever did on pellets. They are also very healthy individuals.

Oh, we have little to NO waste with our top quality alfalfa hay.

Heck, what do I know? Our 15+ Top Ten Breed Leaders (in 2 breeds) must need a wake-up call! 

Sara


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## dq (Aug 15, 2008)

look I'm not trying to fight. I just am not convinced that it is that much different if at all. I know there is the chewing and how much saliva is produced buffering the rumen and all but isnt' that all theoretical when it comes to how much that affects production? yikes. 

there is a big difference in brands with the pellets too. standlee I like. purina my goats won't eat (and it stinks) the local mill here bags up acceptable pellets for a good price and that is where I get them. 

you are very lucky to be able to get top quality hay. I'm lucky to find alfalfa hay at all. and that very well could be the reason for our different experiences. I have no interest at this point on being in production tests. my goals are probably much different than yours. 

if we are going to talk about not feeding things that are unnatural for a ruminent than we should talk about not feeding grain. I doubt many people with milk records don't feed grain.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> no wonder this forum has a bad rap.


A bad rap? Why? because we TRY to have discussions without getting bent out of shape? Then your first post to this thread is sarcastic and baiting? Sarcasim isn't needed to make a thread a DISCUSSION. 
Yes, we (a few) pick at each other...but we know the people we pick at personally and *if* they can handle our joking around. Meaning my post to Tracy! She knows me and knows how I like to pick at her. It's friendly...not as your "bad rap" statement.

I won't even get into the grain vs no grain because it's a very controversal subject and it always leads to hard feelings and someone getting mad. It usually doesn't even get to the discussion stage.

Ok, people...feed pellets if you want to or feed hay if you want to, or both. It's really a personal preference. It's also what's available in the area. 
I think this thread would be best deleted before it becomes a war. 
JMO,
Kaye


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm sorry you feel this way Leah. I noticed you edited your post from what you had written originally so I am unable to quote and reply to your direct questions/comments.

We all work very hard to help those with any problems and questions they may have.

Sara


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

IF I was making money on my girls that included higher prices paid for kids for DHIR stars or top tens, or IF DHIR was even an option I was even remotely interested in, than yes I would try to deal with the whole alfalfa hay thing. I don't see it at all as pellets vs hay for the other 99% of us though, since it's exactly the same thing, alfalfa hay that has been chopped up and made into pellets.

But...my girls also get hay and they also have access to lots of roughage from living in the woods. So the long stem forage idea of alfalfa vs pellets is moot in my farm.

Leah, it's a remarkable feat what some of the gals do on here with milk amounts. And although your remark sounds good over on HT and the like...it's simply invalade when you look at the amounts of hits, amounts of posts and amounts of real members we have...and this is our slow period! Vicki


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

I just wanted to add that we too have some excellent alfalfa up here in North Idaho and that is our main source of feed for our heavily milking Saanens. From time to time we have fed alfalfa pellets to our does in conjucnction with the alfalfa hay and our milk production has increased.

But, I do believe that the greed factor has a lot to do with it! LOL We feed the pellets in long feeders in the general pen (if we feed them on the milk stand, the majority won't touch them) and they scarf them up. I think mostly because they are afraid that the doe next to them is getting more than they are! BTW, these are the Standlee Pellets and they are very nice. Dark green, tight,no dust and smell very good.

Interesting discussion - but we'll stick to the alfalfa hay as our primary feed source. You know the old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"


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## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

I bet greed does play into the alfalfa pellets- mine won't touch them on the stand either. I have free choice alfalfa hay & give alfalfa pellets twice a day. Mine scarf them down in the feeder in the pens


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Well don't you think it depends on the hay? I mean there is alfalfa out there with much higher protein than 17%.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ashley when alfalfa pellets say 17% protein guaranteed that is a minimum, how much higher are they...you don't know. It's the same way with hay, unless you did each bail, some tests on hay are ran on nurse plots at the fields where grown. Take a really good sampling of alot of bales to really know what you have. And is the hay you buy in the late summer, still the same protein etc....when you are using it in the spring for fresh does and growing kids?

Nothing is ever as simple as it sounds.

It's not as if there is someplace growing alfalfa that is crap and used only for pellets. Pellets are made out of the same hay that chopped alfalfa is made, the same field bales are sold out of also. They just guarantee that the 17% protien will at least be met. Vicki


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## amyrob (Nov 21, 2007)

Not to risk sounding ignorant here, but are we talking small pelletized food? Not cubes of hay, right? Where is Standlee made?


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Hay pellets vary from rabbit food sized though Most I've had were more like almost as wide as a pen in diameter and around 3/4 inch long, Standlee pellets are longer an inch or more : ) and nice! I always try to feed pellets during the later months of pregnancy in a trough, where they do fight over them. Then continue for awhile after lactation. Standlee is in Idaho I believe. Almost all goats I've owned prefer the best hay over pellets any day. However sometimes really great alfalfa is hard to find. On the waste issue, We feed the goats their hay first and let them munch on it, then come back through the next chore time and feed whats left in that manger to the calves and the girls get fresh again.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I feed 1/4" pellets. I'm not sure who makes Standlee pellets. Murdoch's sells them and they should know. If you want alfalfa pellets at a better price and are willing to drive a ways to get them, Westfeeds in Great Falls sells them. They also sell goat lactation and goat developer pellets. I get my alfalfa pellets from Hensley Hay and Grain in Toston. They are the best. Kathie


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

The Standlee pellets are very nice. They look and smell wonderful, are not dusty at all, and my goats love them. Right now, the feed stores in my immediate area that ordinarily carry them are out, so I have had to go with a different pellet. I can really tell the difference and so can my goats. They'll eat the other pellet, but they are not nearly as enthusiastic about them as the Standlee. I have a 5 acre field that the previous owners of our property (we just bought here in the beginning of Sept) had planted in alfalfa but when we looked at it last fall, it looked very weedy. I'm hoping to renovate it and grow my own alfalfa eventually.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Kathie wrote:


> I'm not sure who makes Standlee pellets


Kaye wrote:


> Tracy lives by one the southern suppliers for alfalfa pellets~Standlee.


Idaho
Kaye


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Ashley when alfalfa pellets say 17% protein guaranteed that is a minimum, how much higher are they...you don't know. It's the same way with hay, unless you did each bail, some tests on hay are ran on nurse plots at the fields where grown. Take a really good sampling of alot of bales to really know what you have. And is the hay you buy in the late summer, still the same protein etc....when you are using it in the spring for fresh does and growing kids?
> 
> Nothing is ever as simple as it sounds.
> 
> It's not as if there is someplace growing alfalfa that is crap and used only for pellets. Pellets are made out of the same hay that chopped alfalfa is made, the same field bales are sold out of also. They just guarantee that the 17% protien will at least be met. Vicki


 Sure, what I'm saying is, perhaps this is why some people see different results. In some cases perhaps the hay they got was higher protein than the pellets they had been using. For others maybe not.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

IF I could find any alfalfa hay for sale then my girls and boers would be eating it however I haven't seen any around this year so mine are eating alfalfa pellets and reg.horse quality hay . I think the alfalfa makes a big difference in the amount of milk produced and also the doe in good body condition before she kids . The kids however are on goat pellets with the bagged chopped up alfalfa hay because there is a vast difference in those alfalfa pellets size and shape and I have had kids choke on the pellets.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Kaye can you define the difference between environmental influence and management?

Regarding pellets VS hay what Ken said in one of his very good posts made a lot of sense to me about the form of pellets impacting the rumen similarly to grain. It also was what a vet felt after we lost a great milker to chronic rumen acidosis on mainly alfalfa pellets over hay. Using the pellets is a great way to get measured nutrition. SOME hay has to be there, though, to form that rumen mat which will enable the rumen to process those pellets. So here I dont expect to see hay worth a darn...but I do expect the fiber to do it's job while the pellets provide the calcium, protein, etc. 

And I am STILL trying to figure out how I can convince my dh to let me load up a trailer and go visit Tracy and load up on good hay!


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Kaye can you define the difference between environmental influence and management?


Enviromental influence (to me)= houseing, weather temp-climate, how animals are handled, stress or lack of, milking routines, even the temperment of the livestock handler. The animals enviroment can play a role in their production to some extent. Not as much as management. Managed properly, some animals are able to to overcome their enviroment and still produce close to their protential.

This is a very good article to explain enviromental:
http://www.isah-soc.org/documents/2005/sections/17_vol_1.pdf

Management = feeding (feed/fiber/concentrates/additives), timing of feeding, balancing rations, water (availablity and quality). You get production according to how and what you put in= the short version of mangement.

There are 1,000's of studies on mangement, hence the 1,000's of arguments about it. I won't go into that...I just pick one that works for me and keep tweaking it. :biggrin
Kaye


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