# Dame raise or pull?



## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

Please share with me your thoughts on both dame raise and bottle feed. I am on the fence. I do plan to sell all but one doe, if they have one. Both my Nubians does have papers and are from excellent breeders. Considering all this what would you do?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

The does have tested negative for CAE? That's the first question, cause you don't want to dam raise if the does are positive. Assuming they are clean, dam raising is less labor intensive. People will debate the health benefits and risks of both methods. The benefits of dam raising in my mind are that the milk is clean and fresh and on demand, always the right temperature, etc. They never drink too much and scour. But well excuted bottle feeding has very good results too. Dam raised kids can be friendly, but you must go out and handle them daily. Bottle babies are Velcro babies. Tim Pruitt has a nice article in goat keeping 101 about how to dam raise. I generally dam raise most, and bottle feed a couple a year. If there are triplets, I might pull one, or if I buy a kid, it is nice to bottle feed it so it will be friendly. Nothing more annoying than bringing in a wild kid.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=8809.0


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

If you plan to sell all but one of the babies I would bottle feed. Financially it makes more sense because then someone else is using their milk (or buying it) to raise the kids and not you using up a lot of your milk supply. Also you can give the babies to the new owners much sooner- thus you won't get too attached. I have sold bottle babies as early as 1 and 2 days old to people who know what they are doing. It's much more economical for me. 

The down side is that it is more work: you have to absolutely be there for the kiddings, milk out the colostrum and milk a couple of times a day in the beginning and it's very hard for me to take the babies away from their dam (heartbreaking-actually), but then I get over it.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Dam raising means kids that you can't sell until you wean them, which means you turn into one of those people we all talk bad about who sell new folks kids weaned at 8 weeks like they are pups  LOL!

Seriously, you aren't Tim Pruitt...he has years of CAE negative tests and years of his stellar reputation behind him, I would buy a dam raised kid from him in a heartbeat. I would not buy a dam raised kid from someone new, and tame for most means the kid comes to your outstretched fingers....I need tame goats that come to you because they want to live in your pocket.

I agree with Dana, your going to sell kids anyway, bottle them, then send them on their way with a bottle, and if the person doesn't have a source of clean tested milk, wean the kids onto grocery store milk for them. And even if you aren't going to sell kids, that 12 weeks worth of work bottle feeding is a lifetime of a friendly goat and her dam who isn't a pill on the milkstand, holding her milk back, stomping her feet, acting the fool because you are not her kid. Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Dam raising is definitely easier and it has to be healthier for the babies- when you consider the probiotics, white blood cells, enzymes etc in fresh milk and the hormonal status in the body from the comfort of mom. But I will be selling a lot of babies this year so I will be putting them on bottles. I'm not raising them all out to weaning there will be too many! So, in your case, I would put them on bottles. And try to have buyers lined up so you aren't bottling them 3 months, might as well have left them on mom then!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Plus idiot kids (and dams) who never wean their darn YEARLING kids, who are bigger than them! I'm not bitter or anything, lol. Oh, and that kid, I even let her raise her kids, in hopes that she would stop with the nursing because she had her own babies to worry about...nope, she would have a kid nursing her, while she nursed her dam...talk about awkward! And I sold her, and now she is self-nursing! Gah, I don't think I would ever do it again, unless I was going to butcher the kids.


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I also would bottle feed them, especially if you are not planning on keeping bucks. That way you can sell the bucks quickly as wethers and have more milk for yourself and the remaining doe(s). If your does will be first fresheners they will most likely take to being milked a lot easier if you do it right after kidding than if you wait until you wean the kids.

If you keep a kid, I think bottling makes it easier to introduce the kid to the rest of the herd when she is big enough. She won't see anyone as "mom" and won't try to nurse on anything but a bottle.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Oh, yeah, that same kid wanted to nurse everyone too (as a yearling)! None of the others would let her, but her darn mom would never wean her!


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

When I was starting the CAE prevention, I bottled all the doe kids and let the bucks stay with the dams, since the boys went for meat anyway. Once everyone was CAE-, I went back to dam raising.

Now I am no doubt back to square 1 with my new does after losing my original - herd in the fire. I will pull all the doe kids this spring and let the bucks stay on mom to grow big and meaty. I am CAE testing when I send in the pregnancy tests, but the chances of them being - is slim. Very few people up here test.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Sully-maybe it is because of that one breeder that is near you from that other forum. She sure had a lot of goats, and seemed so ignorant when it came to a lot of things, but would tell people that you can't reliably test for CAE and basically didn't know what the disease even was (she would get CL and CAE confused all the time). Such a shame, and sad that all these new people are getting wrong information from someone they trust, since she had so many goats and for so long!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

The difficulty in selling bottle babies is that the person must know what they are doing or you get a phone call like I did - this kid has been scouring for three weeks, what do I do? After that experience I went to my no selling bottle kids policy. Though I will relax it if I feel very very confident the person has experience with it. If you dam raise, you have to keep them for three months, which I don't mind cause I love kids. I learned early on that I feel sick selling babies, but can sell most any adult without much of a thought. You have to consider your own make up in the equation too. Of course, if you follow Tim's instructions, you can sell them on a bottle cause you have introduced it as part of the plan. Norms for the breed probably figure in too. More dam raising goes on with minis and NDs. Getting more interest from pet owners for minis, I deal with alot of newbies. Starting a newbie out with a bottle kid is too much trouble for me.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Angie how much does all that cost you, raising for 12 weeks? Doesn't it pretty much absorb all your profit just in labor? And forget selling colostrum or milk.

I have had a few stupid customer stories, but all in all, especially since doing forums I can send new customers to for more help...and part of my sales I know folks buy from me because of my aftersales help, but with my "from birth to kidding" and my phone number, most new folks goatlings thrive. As is seen on this forum daily with most breeders not helping their customers so they find their way here!

You have to milk them anyway, be it infants on them and they are making too much milk for the infants, or milking them so when they wean they aren't dry, so to me I just don't see the point in dam raising dairy goats, it's work no matter which way you choose. I guess if you don't milk them at all and just raise kids, that makes sense....but I would have boers then  V


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

I've done both dam and bottle raised. For me I find bottle raising the better option because if you are on milk test or show you need to know what those udders/teats are doing and how much milk is produced, not to mention prevention management for diseases like CAE & CL.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I don't know how to put value on milk when it is only for my family. If I get a quart a day, we have enough. The rest is just queso blanco and ice milk. . The only consumer product we are producing is kids, mostly sold to pet homes. For me, dam raising equates to "free", whereas bottle feeding equates to added work - although less now that I can send my child labor out to do the job. Still bottles to be washed, one more thing to keep track of. I have a special need's child that is still spoon fed, so I have alot on my plate. Plus if I'm going to the effort to milk, I don't want to feed it to kids - that just feels silly to me when they can get it from the source - so bottle-feeding ends up being bottles of cow milk purchased. There isn't much labor to dam raising - giving that dang Corid is the most annoying chore, but you have to give it to bottle babies too. I like to get kids gone at three months though. When they stick around longer, then any money I would get from them goes to the feed store. But "labor" that's where we get to that sticky issue - that labor of raising kids is exactly why we have goats. We really enjoy that aspect of it. We want great tasting sweet clean nutritious raw milk for our family, and the joy of raising cute kids and selling them to families that are excited to have them.


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

Thanks everyone for sharing your opinions. I didn't wean my children until they were 2 and 3 yo and the thought of depriving the goats of that bonding breaks my heart. But in the end I defer to your experience. Thanks again.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

PrairieTrail45 said:


> I also would bottle feed them, especially if you are not planning on keeping bucks. That way you can sell the bucks quickly as wethers and have more milk for yourself and the remaining doe(s). If your does will be first fresheners they will most likely take to being milked a lot easier if you do it right after kidding than if you wait until you wean the kids.
> 
> If you keep a kid, I think bottling makes it easier to introduce the kid to the rest of the herd when she is big enough. She won't see anyone as "mom" and won't try to nurse on anything but a bottle.


Where's the "LIKE" button?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Dorit said:


> Thanks everyone for sharing your opinions. I didn't wean my children until they were 2 and 3 yo and the thought of depriving the goats of that bonding breaks my heart. But in the end I defer to your experience. Thanks again.


Dorit, you can't compare children to goat kids. You all can say what you want, but animals do not have the same capacity for emotion that humans do. Do the does cry for their kids, sure. But give it a day or two and they're over it. If your child was taken away, would you be over it in a day or two? No. There's a difference.

Since you plan on selling, bottle feed the kids. I admit, I've never dam-raised, but I've had CAE+ does so dam raising was not an option. All I have to go on is what I've read on the forum over the last couple of years. So even though all my kiddings next year will be from CAE- does, I'm still going to bottle feed. Like Vicki said, I want them attached to ME! with all that that entails. Plus, I know how much they're getting and how much the doe(s) is milking. Better for me and my herd management, especially since I've only been in this a couple of years.

What I don't understand from this thread is those that commented negatively about selling bottle babies to newbies. I would think that would be the easiest for all involved. Feed all they can drink, x times per day, offer hay and medicated feed, water, minerals, etc. How hard is that? What am I missing?


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I think sometimes new kid raisers put the kids on replacer (which I have never had good results with) and don't feed enough. Sometimes it seems no matter how much you tell a person how to raise a kid they don't listen and think that the internet knows best (this forum not included! ). Most new goat people want kids, so selling bottle babies can find you that market. I do think they need to know what costs/labor will be involved beore purchase. A lot probably see it like buying a puppy that just needs played with and fed twice a day. Never mind that certain things like cocci can not be vaccinated for, whereas dogs can be vaccinated for a lot of various illnesses that will kill a pup.

I know someone who thinks it is ok to wean their kids at 4 weeks. He thought I was crazy to feed mine for 12 weeks. :sigh


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> I know someone who thinks it is ok to wean their kids at 4 weeks. He thought I was crazy to feed mine for 12 weeks.


That's absolutely insanity!! Even puppies are not weaned until 6 to 7 weeks of age. :mad


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

They put them on replacer and over feed. They don't believe you that cow's milk alone is better than a package at the store claiming to be for goat kids. With the case of the one that called me after THREE weeks, she didn't even know scouring was dangerous!

I actually get alot of people wanting mature animals. With does I tend to raise them out and kid them at least once before I let them go. They are easy to sell then. I won't claim that is cost effective.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

A lot of people up here want bottle babies but don't have the experience to do it right, just like Angie mentioned. I have used replacer made for kids, but never alone. I mix it with goat milk. I would never suggest that to a new person though. When I sell an animal I always give them my phone # and email addy to contact me any time they have a question.

Nancy, regarding your post-her way of thinking is pretty much the standard up here. A few people have started CAE prevention, test and sell CAE- stock, but not many.


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

I always encourage and re-encourage my customers to call me if anything is wrong- day or night. I really want them to have a good experience and to know that I'm there for them. I usually email them to see how everything is going with the kids. 

I tell everyone NOT to use replacer but then I send them to my 4-H Super to get their kids disbudded and she tells them NOT to use cow's milk from the store! I just found this out from a customer and they looked at me like I was crazy...of course they believe the old wise Super who's been doing goats for decades over me. grr!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Yikes Sully! Most people here are not even aware of the existence of CAE. I've heard numerous times people saying, CAE, what's that? The show people here though, are all well aware of the disease.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I've dam-raised 3 kids out of 30 or so born here and it never saved me any work because the dam's still needed milking 2 times a day. Mine are all very heavy milkers. No way I could not milk them. 

I too nursed my children for extended periods of time and was concerned about bottle feed baby goats in the beginning. It is no where near the same. Goats don't even bond with their kids the way dogs and cats do. They do bond, yes, but you won't see a doe curled up in the hay nursing all her infants for comfort. 

If you have a hard time separating does and kids, then leave kids in an adjoining pen where mom can't nurse them but can see them and lick them. I always bottle colostrum when kids are first born. It's easy and seems natural now. I know how much they are getting and don't have to guess if that udder is producing enough to feed a kid. We free-feed milk in a lambar after the first few days so the kids don't get overly hungry. When we've kept the kids near mom, but not nursing, she was soon in a hurry to go out with the herd, checking on her kids a few times and then that was it. Most of the time we bring babies into the house because we lack a barn. They would simply die if we dam raised because our sheds will leak in the corners and flood in heavy rain. (ahh, one day I'll get my new barn).


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Well, when I separate the kids it is sad, but I usually get over it. I do not like them to be able to see their kids, mine just are there pining for them if I do that. I had one doe who had been such a good momma, and got so attached to her babies, that I went to sell her kids, and the person who was buying them, I offered the doe to her. We put them together, and at a week old, she let them start nursing again. I wasn't present for her birth, but took the kids shortly after, max they were 2-3 hours old, and she had already bonded tightly with them. I feel bad that the doe does all this hard work of laboring and birthing, then just has to wonder what the heck happened. But, in the end I do think it's worth it to bottle-feed the kids, and I'd rather take them at birth than have the mom get attached to them, then take them in a couple days like some people do.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I bought a dam raised doeling last year at three months. In the fall I went back and bought mama. That mama definately knew her kid. They hang out together. I like each doe to have a daughter or a sister. They band up along family lines. It makes taking a head count easy, as I look for the tribes. This was the first year I was stuck with boys past three months. Weaning was awful. Those boys hollered for weeks. I can see the appeal of doing it early. It's not so much that the mom forgets, but that the kid doesn't seem to know the difference.

I'm considering pulling the boys this year, so the doelings don't have to compete. I'm not sure what to ask for a soaking wet buckling though...


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

In one of my goat books it does say that does will bond more with doe kids than bucks kids because the doe kids will likely stay in the herd longer (in the wild). 

The only doe that really threw a fit this last spring for me was an Alpine that had raised her kids the two times before. She was not happy about her kids being taken away and she knew I took them. After about a week she had settled down, but in a few months when she was able to see the kids again, she recognized them.

Taking the kids away isn't always easy, but neither is disbudding (at least for me!). I figure in the long run it is the best choice for the kid, doe and owner. After owning Boers and having dam raised kids from them, it is definately easier on the doe and kids to "wean" at birth than weaning the kids when they are a few months old. Then you have screaming kids and does. :tearhair


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Does anybody here leave kids on mom for a few days, then pull them? Thoughts on this?


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Nancy, I personally won't do that, I don't want to let the mom bond with them and then rip them away. Unless you are going to leave one baby. Most of the time they don't seem to notice if you just take one from twins or at least don't get so upset.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

fmg said:


> Does anybody here leave kids on mom for a few days, then pull them? Thoughts on this?


The only time I did that, was when I had a doe kid in the barn during an ice storm and we were out of power for four days. The other kids were in a shed with a heat lamp, but yeah.....no power, so no heat, so I left the single buckling (later named 'Toughie') with his mom in the barn which was the warmest and coziest spot for him. Took him away when we had power again, but it was really hard on the doe, so I never did that again.

I usually take the babies right away, or at the first milking, when I just take the doe out of the kidding pen and into the parlor, then move the babies to the kid pen (out of view for the does) before the doe goes out of the parlor and in with the group of milking does. Usually resettling her status in the herd keeps her occupied enough not to be too upset about the kids. Funny enough, though, I do sometimes think there is a bit of bonding in family lines. I have plenty of sisters who are inseparable, but also some mom&bottlefed doeling combos that definitely hang out together within the group.

Either way, Dorit, you are so much better of with bottle feeding, because those kids will be your babies forever, and they will always be easy to handle for you and anyone who knows how to handle an animal.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Yeah, it didn't seem very nice to me, but I know some who does it (well, I only know them through the internet), and she says it's not that bad. I think it is or used to be a common practice in dairies, I've heard of doing this several times with cattle, I think with sheep dairies too. But maybe the sheep people are leaving a lamb with the mom, I don't know.

It is so odd to me to think about how goats mostly have this need to be bottle-fed in order to bond with humans (I know there are dam-raised ones that are super friendly too, but not the norm), but with pets like dogs or cats, they are friendly if you just handle them when they are young, and dogs will especially bond to people. I'm guessing it is something to do with differences in species or maybe even predator vs. prey animals, or because we are not trying to milk or handle our dogs and cats in the same way as a goat.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I think the only reason I would dam-raise again would be if the kids were going in the freezer and I also did not need the milk.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

For those who pull at birth, how many feedings per day for the bottle babies? Do you immediately go to 2 or 3 or start with extra feedings then work them onto 2 per day?


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

fmg said:


> It is so odd to me to think about how goats mostly have this need to be bottle-fed in order to bond with humans (I know there are dam-raised ones that are super friendly too, but not the norm), but with pets like dogs or cats, they are friendly if you just handle them when they are young, and dogs will especially bond to people. I'm guessing it is something to do with differences in species or maybe even predator vs. prey animals, or because we are not trying to milk or handle our dogs and cats in the same way as a goat.


You have a good point there, but I think you are already answering your own question: with pets people handle the puppy/kitten when they get it all the time, where we may think we do that with goats, but we really don't: not that amount of time and attention. I want to think I spend loads of time with the goat kids, and it is true that i do have all my attention on them at feeding time and make sure there's 'petting and talking' done, but fact is, my day is chockful of things that have to be done, and I couldn't sit in the pen and play with them half the day like people can do with puppies. And the dam-raised goats who are friendly: bet you they come from a herd from someone who is a great and calm animal handler, where the does don't panic when he/she steps in the pen to do vaccinations or to come and milk. The freaky kids come from freaky does and in general, freaky does are made, not born (not always, but LOTS of times!) Fact still remains that I have more one on one with the kids if I bottle raise than if I dam raise, plus, and this is a big one for me: I am on top of every kid and know every change, so I can jump in immediately if one of them isn't faring well.

As for how many bottles: I start them on 4x a day, and when I start driving my truck off the road due to sleep depriviation I go back to 3x and when they are eating their grain well, plus starting to eat hay well I go back to 2 times. b


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> goats mostly have this need to be bottle-fed in order to bond with humans


I disagree- 
Like all animals and humans as well their personalities are basically genetic and they are what they are when they are born. (he's jus like his daddy) You can influence it only so much and being the only source of food is the best way BUT....we do not have wild goats and we have dam raised for 30 years. I have culled certain lines for being flighty meaning that even with the exact same treatment - they turn out differently than their calmer herdmates and more difficult to handle and less consistent in temperament not responding the same way each day meaning please just jump on the milk stand and hold still 

I think we tend to overestimate our influence on the natural world but we also have over millenia done away with the most difficult members of any given 'livestock' breed simply because they do not suit our purposes.
When you can find a herd with a uniform temperament it is breeding (and culling) and not simply because they bottle feed. Especially impressive is the temperament in modern Nubian bucks and how that has been so affected by culling because it used to range quite radically from placid to aggressive like a bulls and rams you hear of or terrified with overactive flight response making them impossible to work with. All of these less desirable variables still crop up but are not the norm. Thank you to the old time breeders who narrowed this down to a much more consistent personality type bottle fed or not.

I have bought bottle fed does that were terrible about cooperating and it was the reason they were sold and it was just their innate response to the world which was unadulterated by having a human for the food source. 
Personality is there from the minute they pop out. You can tell after delivering enough kids with in 3 days of interacting what kind of critter you have on your hands and even variations in response in a litter. Same as with litters of pups- do they stand off and look at you and judge what you are doing or do they run mindlessly to you because you represent food. The latter is of course preferable for dairying but I fear it also indicates a bit more intelligence to wait to decide how to respond but then we don't really want smart livestock or it would be more difficult to handle them if they were second guessing us and harder to eat them no?

We split our kids off in the evening starting at 2 weeks old so they see us as food source as they are running into their baby safe to munch on tasty treats and get out from underfoot of the does. We interact with them every day twice a day until they are weaned or sold so how can you not know when something is different or needs tending too. The baby safe here is adjacent to the milking area so that I can watch the kids while milking and make sure all are acting normally and they learn to pop out the gate when their dam jumps down from the stanchion and run off to get their first milk of the day.

I really just have to laugh at the way people think dam raising means you are not involved. I guess if you are not milking you are not involved but then you just 'have goats' you are not raising dairy goats. We have perfected a system for producing completely healthy kids with great growth rates and leaving them on their dams and I know many other breeders doing the same. Sales have never been an issue here because they were dam raised. I don't sell anyone who is not weaned. Simple. Then I know that for at least that time frame in their life they had a proper start. No changes to diet until they have been ruminating for awhile which means adapting more smoothly and a fully formed immune function in place. Another thing that is so ironic is that people believe dam raising and kids ruin udders. People ruin udders by believing that the kids are in charge and they have no duties twice daily because the kids take care of it. Just ignorance- dam raising does not mean the breeder is not involved just as often as in any other diary situation. So there you have the rest of the story....
Lee


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

buckrun: you basically sad what I wanted to say! 

I have found from having Boers and raising horses that every kid/foal from each doe/mare is different. We have had foals who were in your pocket the day they were born and others who were just plain twitchy. I've had kids that wanted to be with me and others who would rather try to break their neck to get away than let me get within 10 ft of them. It didn't matter how much they were handled or not, they are how they are.

I do think a lot of "taming" a goat has to do with how you approach the animal. They are prey animals and we are predators. If you approach a "wild" goat like you are going to pounce on him/her they will be frightened. Same with chasing a goat all day to catch them, in most cases the goat will last longer than you will and can run much faster.

As far as the kids ruining the udder. Take a look at Fiasco Farm's does. They dam raise all of their kids and I have yet to find an udder on their page that was ruined. If kids ruined udders, goats as a species would have died out a long time ago.

I do bottle raise my kids, but mostly for personal reasons. I do think most people will only buy dam raised kids from established breeders with long time, good reputations.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Wondered when you would chime in Lee. I thought you dam raised. They are definately herd animals. I get rid of runners, because they can turn the whole herd to running. And it does run along family lines. I have figured out a couple tricks. Having one bottle baby is all you need to tame a whole kid crop. You go out in the pen and feed that baby, and the whole group gathers around because they see that you are a food source. Now my human kids are old enough to go out and play with the goats. This is wonderfully helpful, as long as you train the human kids first that they must not chase the kids. Molly at Fias Co Farm trains hers to be friendly with treats. 

Most bottle babies I have bought invade my personal space too much. Once I get those kids here, I have to train them to back off, quit getting under my feet, quit jumping up, and the worst offense - don't jump on my back when it's turned! I think it is a personal preference thing. I want them trained to stand still when I approach - neither to turn and run nor come running up to me.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Kids are so easy to tame, they are shamelessly curious. Go sit in then pen for ten minutes and they will be all over you. However, if you wait around to long they will be a lot more difficult. I agree, bottle babies are obnoxious. My does who were dam raised will walk up to me and give me those big eyes. The if I ignore them or don't see them behind me, they will start to nudge me with their nose and then proceed to nibbling if needed. My bottled ones will walk up and start biting me half the time. Toggy doesn't bite, she just rubs her head on you so bard she might knock you down (I don't mind ). Willow is pretty bad to bite and try to put your entire hand in her mouth if you don't stop her. They mostly know I don't allow biting but I have to keep reminding them.


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

Lee's assessment has been my experience.  Though next year I have a couple deposits out on kids and so will have a lambar for those and figure I will train my home born kids to use it as well. Not cuz of a shift in preference, but for convenience with having some outside kids being brought in.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry but I have seen my share of lopsided udders, all the excuses at shows "the kids got out and nursed the doe" the kids favor this side so I have to level it out....but yes, if you dam raise right, like Tim's paper we have, milk the doe to keep her empty and even, mess with the kids, than yes you can have bottle tame kids who nurse their dams. But we all have seen the tame for the breeder goats who may come to their outstretched fingers...that isn't tame and you won't get near that animal being it's new owner.

That is why there is as many ways of raising goats as there are breeders, and I didn't even let my boers nurse their kids! I didn't want a herd of wild horned animals I had to use catch pens with to catch...or who only come to me, or my daughter. 

And it still comes down to, what will you purchase...because in asking this before, most won't purchase from those who dam raise, certainly not without years of experience testing for CAE. Vicki


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I don't get that last statement. What protection is bottle raising really from CAE? It has to be done by someone who knows what they are doing. Or you get what Donna and I had to deal with - a bottle raised, very friendly positive doeling. Isn't it just a perception thing? It may be that in some circles there is a perception that bottle raised means prevention has been executed properly. In fact we know that the pooling of the milk for bottle feeding is why we got this mess to begin with. I guess it just varies along breed lines what people expect. There are lot's of dam raised NDs.


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

As far as I know the way bottle raising will prevent CAE is because you have to heat treat the colostrum (properly) and then only feed pasteurized milk. If they are fed raw milk and raw colostrum then no they are not on CAE prevention.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Yes, but what I meant is you are trusting that they have done prevention right. To me a negative test for mom, and a negative test for kid are the only assurances. If you don't trust someone's ability or ethics to test, then the fact that they bottle feed or claim to do prevention would make zero difference to me.


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

You are right, there is no assurance without proof of testing. You basically have to trust that the breeder did everything right if the dam is positive. As far as I know kids usually aren't tested until 6 months of age, so you would have to rely solely on the dams results if you are buying a younger kid. I always ask to see the results and/or have a copy of them for my own records. Those with truthful, negative results have no problem showing them. Those with positives will balk at showing you the results, and will most likely have the "thus and such happened to them so I don't have the results any more". 

IMO if you advertise your stock as negative for a disease you should be able and willing to share the results with prospective buyers.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah- wow here are some of our wild skittish dam raised kids.... :biggrin
They ran like the wind when Don started up the splitter and then came right back to sniff every piece of wood he tossed.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Angie did you and Donna see the whole herd negative test results on the herd you purchased from? Did you then test your kid? Breeders are banking on you not doing either, so it's not perception it's deception. I don't care if it's common practice for ND to dam raise, I would never purchase the breed from anyone who doesn't have negative results on their herd for me to see, and heat treating and pasteurising is very good assurance, but so is testing that kid. And demand a contract so you can get the kid or goat home and test it for yourself. IF a goatling is positive it means that the kid recieved colostrum (even if it was heat treated) from a positive doe, you don't have to wait 6 months or a year to see that positive test.....if the herd is touting negative than where did the colostrum come from that made that kid positive?

Test. It is unethical to sell goats anymore without it, and exactly how can we be this far into testing and still have breeders with positive stock? And yet people still purchase their goats for new stories for the forum next year.

My opinion doesn't really have anything to do with how you in the end choose to run your farm, it's not personal.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

And here is one of our lopsided ruined udders from a 4 year old that raised twin does and triplet bucks....
Messy messy messy.... :rofl


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh that awful udder! :lol


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Exactly my point Vicki! It is the *testing* that I trust - see their test, then test again. A claim that they were raised on prevention is just that - a claim. And hey, if you test a dam raised kid, you know its exact status, no waiting 6 months.

Love the photos!


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I bottle raise most of my doelings because they are much easier to deal with. Because of having to work outside the home, I do let some of my does raise their kids, so I don't get overwhelmed with chores. For me, the plus side of my bottle raised kids is they are easier to catch to vaccinate them and also to give meds if they get sick. When I show them, I'm not worried about them getting loose and being unable to catch then easily. They are also the easiest for me to sell, not only because they are raised on prevention, but they are friendly when buyers come to visit my farm. I more frequently let the does raise their buck/wether kids do I don't get attached to what goes in the freezer or to the meat buyer. I also have noticed buyers are less concerned about a dam raised buckling because bucks aren't handled as much as does. Personally, I prefer to bottle raise the bucklings I plan to keep for ease of handling. I bought a dam raised buck at a year old and he lives with a lead rope on. I also notice that I use the other bucks more than I use him, mainly because they are easier to catch and lead.
While I've never had kids ruin a doe's udder, when I leave kids on, some of them do get uneven udders that lactation. Though I check udders at milking time and milk out a full side, as the kids grow, there isn't usually anything for me at milking time - yet they must be nursing unevenly because when I pull the babies, the udder is uneven. I've also had does wean their kids without me realizing it and have no milk when I pull the kids. This is usually with the yearlings. I don't let my best show does raise their kids.
If you are planning to sell the kids, bottle feeding seems to be the best way to go.
As for the results of a test on a dam raised kid, I still think you could get a kid that tests negative and then seroconverts as an adult. One of my first does was a doeling I bought at 2 weeks old. She was on her dam until I bought her and then raised on replacer (the one and only year I used replacer). I tested her as a yearling and the result was negative. I retested at three when I noticed she had a swollen knee. She was positive. Since she didn't receive any goat milk after I got her, I know it took her that long to seroconvert.


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

buckrun said:


> And here is one of our lopsided ruined udders from a 4 year old that raised twin does and triplet bucks....
> Messy messy messy.... :rofl
> 
> Please explain what is wrong with this udder, I don't know what to look for. Thanks


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

She was being sarcastic. It's a nice udder. The internet makes it really difficult to understand tone of voice, but that thing laughing and rolling around shows it's a joke.


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

OH :0


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Dorit said:


> OH :0


LOL! Don't worry, Dorit. At first, I was wondering the same thing. Then I remembered it was Lee who posted. :biggrin


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

Thx


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

PrairieTrail45 said:


> I know someone who thinks it is ok to wean their kids at 4 weeks. He thought I was crazy to feed mine for 12 weeks. :sigh


YIKES! Guess he'd think I was beyond crazy for not weaning my kids until they are 5ish months!!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Faithful Crown Nubians said:


> YIKES! Guess he'd think I was beyond crazy for not weaning my kids until they are 5ish months!!


I don't know how some of you keep kids on milk for 5 months. My kids aren't interested by that time. ??


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

lol Both of my bottle bucks would STILL take a bottle right this second if I offered it 8) One was born in January, the other late February. 

My doeling from March just left at the end of September (to go with my friend who pitched in on hay & feed while she was here) & she nursed regularly up until about 3 weeks before she left.....thats when momma started kicking her off.

I have 2 dam raised does & they are so much more difficult than my other 2 who were bottle raised.....As soon as I can get doelings from them, they'll likely be moving on.

I prefer bottle kids because I can sell them faster......The only ones I let the dam raise are boys I want for the freezer.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nancy said:
I feel bad that the doe does all this hard work of laboring and birthing, then just has to wonder what the heck happened.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've got this figured out.  I attend every birth and pull kids from dams. Kids don't touch the ground. They are delivered into my hands and I swipe of the gunk and put them on a feed bag and rub with a towel. If #2 or #3 is coming before toweled, then the kid(s) on the bag wait til I catch the latter kids. Needless to say, I get pretty gunky myself. LOL
Well, this year I had a FF who had twins. First a buckling, I was swiping him off and DH was in the barn and said 'The next ones coming'. I tossed him the buckling and the doe squatted and dropped a little doeling--I barely caught her. Swiped her off and May (the FF) turned and started licking my hands/arms, so I gave DH the doeling to towel off to wait and see if she'd have more. She just kept licking me. No more kids. Took the kids in and took care of them and went back out to milk May. She hopped right up on the milkstand (used to doing that), and I prepared for a bit of a rodeo as she was kinda a skittish spaz as a kid. As I started to milk, she kinda froze...turned her head out of her feeder and nudged my back and nibbled my hair a bit and turned right back to her feed. She squatted her hind end and never moved. That was in April and the routine hasn't changed. I'm her kid. She never cried for them and she's solid as a rock on the stand. Follows me around the pasture like a puppy and still licks my hands or arm. LOL I'm hoping her doeling (Daisy) is the same way. She's a spaz too. But I'm gonna have to wait an extra year to find out as I'm keeping her as a dry yearling this year. :/
I like pulling kids. They start out thinking that I'm their mom. I teach them early not to jump on me. Then when they kid, I become their baby. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've only had one FF (my very first doe to kid) give me a rodeo on the milkstand. May was the first one where it really hit me WHY my FF seem to be dolls to milk. She was a bit extreme in 'babying' me, but I'll make sure I give my future FF a chance to give me a good licking from now on. :biggrin :rofl


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Hehe, yes, they do like to lick...and lick and lick and lick! I do let mine lick me, and they usually have some goo balls around the pen to keep them contentedly licking away at. Thinking back, I think it's mostly the ones that have dam-raised before that are the most upset. They probably know there should be a tiny newborn somewhere, but can't find it.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

MF-Alpines said:


> Faithful Crown Nubians said:
> 
> 
> > YIKES! Guess he'd think I was beyond crazy for not weaning my kids until they are 5ish months!!
> ...


Mine have always been....some weren't weaned till 6mos...and even at that age, when the lambar goes they cry and cry....only I find they get over it faster at the later age vs the 12wk age, of course I'm basing this off just my herd.


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