# Help! *UPDATED WITH PICTURE*



## april (May 4, 2010)

ok, heres a picture. I called my vet and he said its too late to disbud again. (He hasnt seen her, hes just going by her age at two months old.) He said he would now have to put her under general anestesia and dehorn her. It would cost almost $200.00. Do you guys think its too late to disbud again?

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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

Answer you PM and add your location and info to your signature perhaps we have someone on the forum close to you that can look at the kids heads for you. Done this late they are not going to be flat until they fall off, hopefully done well enough....5 weeks old is pretty old for it to take well.

Yes you want to keep them with mom for at least 12 weeks, longer really since they have just been sold to you. If you are wanting to get some of her milk fiascofarm.com has a really good modle of how you an take the kids away overnight into their own stall, so you can milk the mom in the morning and then keep the kids with the mom all day long, this helps tame them also.

Welcome to the forum! Glad you found us. Lots to learn. Vicki


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## april (May 4, 2010)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

Sorry I didn't put my info on yet. I'm in Colorado. You said they will be flat when they fall off. When do they usually fall off? Also, what would it look like if the horn was growing? I know I sound stupid, sorry but I have zero experience with goats. :/ Thanks for the reply!!!!


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## deJardine (Apr 29, 2009)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

You might try and post some photos of the top of the head too. That might also help... Welcome to the forum! You are in the right spot for some great help! ~


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

You don't sound stupid. When done correctly, and everyone messes up at least a couple of disbuddings a year and we have to redo them, but when done correctly the scab area sort of bubbles up, raises like a child's skin knee will, and then the whole thing comes off and has red/pink ooze, not dripping blood. If it comes off in flakes than it likely will get scurs. Now if the horn itself is growing just with a flat place on top they disbudded than yes they need to be redone. Hopefully also at this age you are vaccinating them for tetanus, the CD&T we talk about on here. We get most of what we need that we talk about on the forum from jefferslivestock.com and Tractor Supply and larger feed dealers. In goatkeeping 101 on here is an article, From Birth to kidding, in which it takes a bottle fed kid from their birth until they have babies, it could be helpful to you...as will to start a notebook with most of goatkeeping 101 printed out and put into it, also the worm and cocci section.

With the kids nursing did the owners say anything about CAE to you? Did you note any swollen knees in older goats at their farm? Did you see any large lumps on the neck, open sores?

Honestly the first thing you need to do with this doe is worm her and then pull blood and send it to biotracking.com if the sellers didn't have these two kids disbudded before they were a week old, they had no intention of selling or keepin them to then do them that late because they had a sale with you. You do not want to keep this doe if she is in fact positive for CAE and the blood needs to be pulled now before you start vaccinating her also.

Just start reading and asking questions. It's how we all started because sadly most breeders sell goats and give zero aftercare to their customers. Vicki


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## april (May 4, 2010)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

OK, I'll take a picture tomorrow and try to get it on. Thanks!


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## april (May 4, 2010)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

Vicki (or anyone who wants to answer),

No they didn't mention CAE. I haven't given them any shots and I dont know if the sellers did. Can I buy vaccinations online? Is that recommended? These were the only goats they had and they seem to be very healthy. The sellers were very nice people and seemed very honest. What is the best dewormer to use on a goat? I have some Ivomec pour on (Eprinex). Is that a no no? The scab on the goat Im worried about does seem to be flaking off a bit, so I guess thats a bad sign.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

From birth through kidding guidelines:
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,2077.0.html

Scurs are deformed remains of horn growth when disbudding goes wrong. They can curl around and grow back into the goat's head or stick up and be quite sharp and painful to the other goats when they play and bang heads.


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

Some basic research on goats would be a very good thing! There's tons on info on here in the archives, and my own book "Making Money With Goats" has densly packed information on care management and products. In addition, there are books available at libraries sometimes, at goat sources on line and my new book "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Raising Goats" will be on Amazon in June. You'll find the time and investment well worth it!


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

April,

you found a good place to do some research, goats are not the easiest livestock to keep and you need some more info. Ideally that is done before the purchase but many of us here have learned the other way. REad up in Goatkeepign 101 and also go through posts that relate to your situation . It is hard if not impossible for a new folk to tell if a goat looks healthy, some will behave perfectly normal still heavily ridden with infection and severe worm overload. Are their coats shiny, are their hooves trimmed flat (so they look like a block ), are the inside of their eyelids bright pink or pale, is their coat showing any flaking, lice, etc? When you put your hands over the goat , do you feel any bumps. Do the knees look swollen?? Can you see ribs on the doe or are the ribs covered with flesh nicely? What is their temp? Any discharge from the nose? Even very nice folks may not be knowledgable about their own goats or their health. Especially if they only owned one. I am glad you found us, this is a great group of folks and you can learn all you need and more in one place.

Some basic things
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Vaccines: You can purchase the CDT vaccinations at local feed stores, Atwoods, Lumber 2, etc. or online at www.jefferslivestock.com

Dewormers: I would not pour on anything on a goat. Use Cydectin cattle pour on ORALLY at 1cc per 22lbs of weight or Ivermectin Injectable at 1cc per 33lbs. Get a good weight tape to see how much the goats weigh, also at jefferslivestock.
If the doe was not wormed after kidding, I would definitely worm her with Cydectin, plus both the kids. The stress from kidding and from the move will elevate her wormload.

Cocci: The kids should be on some form of cocci prevention now, Corid 9.6% solution or DiMethox 40%, both available at jeffers.com

Feeding" What are you currently feeding the adult ? The doe should have plenty of calcium of some sort, alfalfa hay or alfalfa pellets, plus a little grain for energy it takes to produce the milk.

Hope this helps some to get you started but please do research or get Ellie's book .

Jana


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## april (May 4, 2010)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

I checked out several books from the library but they are not specific in some areas such as deworming, shots, and the weaning guidelines vary. That is why I joined this forum....to ask experienced goat owners. There is a lot of conflicting information out there, in books and on the web. Ideally I would have learned everything I need to know BEFORE buying the goats. My husband grew up having dairy goats so I _assumed_ he would have all the answers. That is all Im gonna say about that :sigh.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*



> Are their coats shiny, are their hooves trimmed flat (so they look like a block ), are the inside of their eyelids bright pink or pale


And I just have to say this because it drove me crazy in the beginning. Some does can have pretty pale eyelids without a worm burden. My doe, Penny has very light pink eyelids, as does her daughter. She has a glossy coat, has some of the cleanest fecals in the herd and is milking about 9 lbs a day at 4 weeks fresh. Maybe minerals but copper boluses don't change it :shrug2 Then some in my herd have almost red eyelids. I've noticed kids always have very dark pink eyelids.

I would recommend you wait until at about 5-6 months to wean, especially being a newbie. Invest in those doelings' futures.


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## mrs.h (Feb 1, 2010)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*



april said:


> That is all Im gonna say about that :sigh.


Hehehe. I understand. I'm sure a lot of others will too.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

April, back to your disbudding question. I had some my first year that were not done thoroughly at first and had to be redone. Granted, they were done before that the first time, but I was going back even as late as 6 months to redo. I had the vet do them under sedation because it needed a wire saw and a goat that big is pretty tough to manhandle when you're taking a hot iron to its head. Not that it can't be done, but I'm a wimp. This time, they will need to be burned all the way down to the bone all the way across, not just in a ring, a larger area will need to be covered, so maybe even use a cattle sized iron. If a wire saw has to be used, my recommendation is to not have the vet cut all the way through the skull into the sinus cavity. This is a dehorning procedure, but doesn't necessarily mean they won't scur later and the stress is just not worth it, especially when you're new. That, and this time of year, you're asking for flies and infection and just yuk. I'd rather have small scurs to deal with. Hindsight is 20/20 on that one.

So, in your shoes, I'd find a vet that will pull blood (and show you how) to send in for CAE testing, do a fecal flotation (and show you how) to determine coccidia and worm load and get you started with that, and burn the snot out of those horns and give you some flat heads. Then, as everyone has said, read read read. A lot of information in goats is probably new from when your husband had them, so don't be too hard on him.  Your biggest thing is wanting to have disease free goats (CAE and Vicki was referring to CL in asking about lumps and sores). Then, because parasites are probably the #1 problem beyond that, you will want to fecal monthly and keep up with that. It will get easier. I jumped into goats thinking I knew everything I needed to know from a previous mentor and quickly found out that I had SOOOOO much to learn. I am still learning daily.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

The reason the books are not specific on worming and products is that for goat management we now use cattle dewormers at different dosages or routes than the label, such as the Cydectin pour on given orally. They are officially NOT approved for goats but vets here do recommend them extra label.

Ashley, I still would recommend a newbie treat pale eyes as anemic, like you I have a doe - 5 year old (and she is blond so lack of membrane color is a possibility) whose membranes are less pink than I would like them to see. I have not yet ditched the idea that she is anemic long term from different reasons and I dont expect copper boluses to show steady results until at least a year of regular bolusing (even though we see the improvement within months after the first dose with goats that were not bolused before).


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## feistymomma (May 20, 2009)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

In regards to the disbudding question or concern; if you do need to get them redone, I just had my 11 week old Nigerian Dwarf buckling who had 1 inch scurs/more like full horns, and my vet was able to re-disbud him. He still might get a slight scur, but nothing major. If you are able to, you might see how knowledgeable your vet is on goats, or try to find a seasoned dairy goat breeder in your area to see if something needs to be done or give you options. But if you can post a pic, someone here would be able to give you a good indication on what your next step would be. Good luck and welcome.


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

Welcome to the forum! It's a great place to have goatie friends and learn soooooo much!

Dana in Michigan


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

Hi April and WELCOME!

To address CAE. Most breeders look and sound honest but either do not test or test and don't disclose the results. You want honest? Look at a hardcopy from a lab, Bio-Tracking or WADDL, there are others but I haven't used them yet. Thats where honesty comes in, when they show you their hardcopy . 
Tam


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## april (May 4, 2010)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

Ok! Here is a picture of both of the goats debudded horns. You can see that one looks bigger than the other and both look like they are kinda flaking. What do you guys think? (I hope the pic downloads ok)

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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

Re do!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

:yeahthat What you are seeing is the horn regrowing. Tam


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## april (May 4, 2010)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

My vet says its too late to disbud her again and he will have to put her under general anesthesia and dehorn her at this point. (he hasn't seen her, he is just going by her age) Its going to cost almost $200.00. I didn't even pay that much for the goat! Do you guys think I should try to find someone else to disbud her again? Or is it just too late? :sniffle


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

WHAT! He's greedy then. Check around to see if you can find another vet. I paid $75.00 for Theoden to be done, that includes anesthisia and CD-T. Had another one in the past get done that cost $50.00. Tam


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## april (May 4, 2010)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

That makes me sad. :sniffle I would gladly pay $75.00 to get it done but there is NO WAY my husband is going to let me spend $200.oo to get it done. We only have the one vet clinic in our town that deals with farm animals. I guess tomorrow I'll start calling in some other towns. This is such a bummer!!!!!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

I wonder if you didn't let them grow out a bit and then ask the vet to use general sedative,a dehorning wire and disbudder if it wouldn't cost you less. You could ask . Tam


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

Okay, no way is that a $200 job. That can even be done by a non-vet if you can get enough help to restrain the goat. My vet charges $35 if a wire saw has to be used and $25 if only sedation and a re-disbud of a botched job. $7 if initial disbudding. This looks like a $25 job to me, particularly if that's the worst horn. I would look elsewhere if you can't get him to come down on price. It's not the same as doing a 2 month old that has never been done. If you opt to get a breeder to help do this yourself, you can shave around it so you don't smell so much burning hair, burn down to the skull, knock off the middle, and burn across so you see white all the way across. You may see a bit of a white bump in the middle of the burn at this point, and it will scur, but not bad. The skull will actually grow back under and the scab that comes off will be old skull tissue. I had a couple of cases that looked exactly like this. One was just burned down to the skull but the center left and had to be redone later with a saw. One was burned all the way across and was just as I said--little scurs that knocked off.


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## april (May 4, 2010)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

I watched a disbudding on you-tube. I don't think I have the nerves to do it myself. At least not yet. Maybe after Ive had goats for a few years I could do it.... but not yet. I think I might pass out :?. I hope I can find someone to do it for less, I really like these goats but I really don't want the horns to worry about. I have seven kids (human kids) who will be helping care for the goats and I don't want anybody getting hurt. Thank you all so much for your advice, I really do appreciate it.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

Are you and ADGA member? Is there anyone around you with goats? Perhaps someone can look up your city in the directory and help you find someone local to you that can simply disbud these goats again. Is your vet a livestock or pet vet? This is a simple fix! Vicki


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## april (May 4, 2010)

*Re: Help! I have no idea what I'm doing with these goats!!!!!!!!!!*

No, I'm not an ADGA member. My vet is a pet and livestock vet. They are the only vet clinic in Pueblo that handles farm animals. I do have a phone call in with a mobile farm vet that I heard about, waiting for a return call. I even went on Craigslist and called everyone I could find who was selling goats to try and find someone who can help but no luck yet. To be honest I'm a little leery about that anyway because Id rather have a goat with horns than a dead goat and I don't know who to trust. If anyone knows of anyone in the Pueblo, Colorado area who can help me please let me know.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

prairie nights said:


> Ashley, I still would recommend a newbie treat pale eyes as anemic, like you I have a doe - 5 year old (and she is blond so lack of membrane color is a possibility) whose membranes are less pink than I would like them to see. I have not yet ditched the idea that she is anemic long term from different reasons and I dont expect copper boluses to show steady results until at least a year of regular bolusing (even though we see the improvement within months after the first dose with goats that were not bolused before).


I hear you. It's just something that concerned me for so long for no apparent reason.

I've had this doe for three years. Of course, I haven't bolused that whole time though.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

April, 

try and contact your local 4H group and ask for the help in disbudding. I never knew how many goat folks there were around me until we joined 4H. Also, to do it yourself, it would be close to $200 with purchasing a disbudding gun and holding box. Plus you don't have the skill yet, you really want someone to show you. It looks much worse on you tube, it's really 8 seconds of pain on each bud, find goat folks (even post an ad on Craigslist in farm and garden that you are looking for a fellow goat breeder) and ask for help. Btw, where did the original owners have the kids disbudded? Can you go back to them?? It's better than nothing. 

Jana


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

April, just a warning that keeping goats and managing them properly will cost $200 and much more


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## april (May 4, 2010)

Jana,

Im not opposed to spending money on my goats.....within reason. Im not going to spend $200 to disbud a goat.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I have the 2009 directory in front of me (2010 is by the other phone), and looks to be about 6 folks in Pueblo itself that are members. You might try contacting the Colorado Dairy Goat Association www.colodga.org and see if they can help recommend anyone.

Don't feel bad that you don't think you can do it yourself. I had my vet do mine even this year, because I didn't think I could. I just did my first disbuddings about 2 weeks ago and I'm praying I did a good job! So much to learn when you're new and it's not always as easy as it looks!


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## april (May 4, 2010)

Billie,

Thank you for the helpful information. That is what I was hoping for!


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<< not going to spend $200 to disbud a goat<<>>

LOL, of course not.

Glad Billie found you the info  THe local folks were a God sent to us when we first got started, disbudding, tattooing, birthing help, etc.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Glad you helped her Billie. I just sat down with the 2010 directory and saw you got it! :lol April if you can't eind anyone then contact me and I'll see how many surrounding people are near you. Tam


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## feistymomma (May 20, 2009)

As I said before, I had an 11 week old buck with scurs/horns that were larger than what your picture shows. My vet (also raises dairy goats) gave him a local shot to numb the head, pulled off the horn buds, and then burnt them with the iron....for $5.50. Get a second opinion. You find a lot of vets that no nothing about goats. See if you can find another vet or a seasoned goat breeder in your area, but I would have them redone for sure!!!


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## april (May 4, 2010)

Well here's the scoop. I called my vet back again and asked if I could bring both the doelings in for him to just take a look at. He said he would look at them for free just to see what needed to be done. When I got there, a different vet "there are four vets at this clinic" looked at the goats because vet #1 was busy. Vet #2 said that BOTH of my goats needed redone and showed me the horns starting to emerge. The good news is that when I asked how much it would be for both goats he quoted me a much lower price than vet #1 did. He is going to do it for $68.00 per goat. (Much better than $200.00 per goat!) Needless to say we have an appt. next Friday. They also got their CD/T and dewormer. Thank you all for the advice!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks for this thread. I've been very interested cuz I have a nice almost yearling now that I must sell, and she has a scur that I've been unwilling to pass on a problem to someone, so dragging my feet about selling her. She a very nice, dairy doeling and I need to do something. I'm encouraged now to broaden my resources and deal with it.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

April, if you're happy with that, I'm glad. I hope they burn the crud out of them and use the saw (but don't make holes into the sinus cavity--esp. this time of year) for that price, though. I still think it's high, but Colorado prices are probably going to be higher than TN. If I were you, I'd still call up the main contact for colodga, though, and just introduce yourself and chat a bit. The connections you make will be worth it, and though it sounds a bit odd, you will find that goat people are just like that.


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## april (May 4, 2010)

Yes, I agree its still a lot of money. But Im just gonna suck it up and pay since Im not finding any other options. I already contacted the CDGA and spoke with the lady in charge of the group (Marilou). She saw my picture and said it would be best to go to a vet because it looks to big to be disbudded. The vet is going to take them all the way to the skull but he said it wont leave a hole. He is going to put them under so they wont have to feel anything. Thanks for everything.


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## Nupine (Nov 2, 2007)

Welcome to DGI! It really is the best place for information!
Cost of surgical dehorning greatly varies depending on location. Around here in Ohio, for $60, they will even do adults. In Michigan, we had a 4 week old kid who's buds were just barely too big for disbudding, and it was $300. 
I'm so glad you got it for $68! Good deal.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Goats usually do not do well with general anesthesia, last time our vet performed a C-section he said the chances were 50-50. Maybe your vet is doing local anesthesia ??? Wonder if it could be redone with a calf tip?


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## april (May 4, 2010)

Im probably wrong. He probably said local. But I will verify before the procedure just to be sure. Thanks for the info!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

My vet uses general anesthesia without problems. She uses a mix of ketamine and valium and doesn't knock them out cold, just groggy and takes the fight (but not all the scream) out of them. Certain anesthetics are dangerous to goats, but this combo works well.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

:yeahthat What Billie said. Our vets were leery too about any anesthesia but they have gotten more comfortable with it now. Tam


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