# Urine Scald - Causes



## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I have a quick ?...I have a new 3 year old buck...he is on 18% - a c. am and a c. pm. and mostly (lol) free choice alfalfa hay. Do you think that is too much protein for him? It is a medicated feed that comes from southern states. His previous owners had not had any problem with him and this issue before? I feed my other buck and his playmate the same way - no urine issues at all. Thanks, Linda


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Linda I can't say if it will or won't. I feed mostly alfalfa too and a good 16% with AC. Out of our four boys only one scalds himself. It wouldn't matter if I feed him straw Just keep an eye on it and treat When needed. Thats all you can do. Other than just going to straight grass hay and no feeds.
Tam


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Protein...excess is peed out as calcium coated uric acid...it burns the skin as it saturates the hair. Lower the protein and you will never have bucks with urine scald. Alfalfa doesn't bother my bucks, hay or 17% alfalfa pellets...now high protein from soy, cottonseed meal and other mystery biproduct protiens we had urine scald horrible. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I hope Pav has time to add to this thread.He has a really good grip on ruminant digestion.
I was told that it was not the level of protein but the form and that high % in alfalfa up to 21 percent is not a problem for goats but when you are talking the kind of protein in mystery pellets-cottonseed- soy-even animal blood- then they cannot digest and it becomes an irritant. I cannot access the writeups on this because they are pay for sites for abstracts from research papers but our bucks did fine on 12% all grain and the best alfalfa we could find. Our neighbor had urine scald so badly the bucks had raw red peeling skin all down the back of their front legs- no hair and swollen tissues that looked weepy. Just awful-so painful looking. They free fed a meat goat ration to the bucks during rut. They were huge and beautiful otherwise but boy did they have scald. Enough to make their legs swell.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

It's about the balance of protein that is absorbable immediately, protein that bugs can degrade in the rumen, and protein that bypasses the rumen and is absorbed later on.

The right ratio should be something like 65:35 degradable to bypass. As for what's what, for the rule of thumb, think alfalfa and high quality hay as degradable, and anything with grains or similar as not. They both have each type, but when balancing rations, that's how you think about it for ease.

If you have too much bypass protein, as tends to happen when a pellet is used that has wheat middlings, soybean meal, cottonseed, etc, you get excess uric acid formation, and the urine pH is so off that it literally burns the hairs and skin. The way to balance that is to instead feed more alfalfa for the protein, and feed the least total protein possible to get to the right ratio and total protein counts.

But Vicki and Lee already said the cause, the wrong ratio. I'm a strong proponent of best alfalfa and 12-14% grain mix across the board for everyone, with no grains for dry does or bucks when not in rut.

Linda, how much pellet and AC are you feeding?


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

Pav...1 cup of grain in the am and 1 cup of grain in the pm...it is an 18% medicated meat goat pellet that has ac in it...As I mentioned in my post, he is a new guy to our farm, and is used to coastal hay and the same food ration. Maybe I should just find a lower protein content for him. I wash him regularly with soap and put salve on him and vaseline over my salve. It is certainly not infected at all, but he certainly needs some adjustment. I will probably post my "options" when I have a chance. Thanks everyone.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

My buck had urine scale on just grass hay, alfalfa pellets and a little whole oats. They were getting alfalfa pellets 2 times per day. I cut out one of the feedings for a while and it went away. Wierd.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Linda, I think it's the pellet mix. You can feed either good alfalfa and a basic grain mix, or hay+pasture with a pellet. Doing both alfalfa and a medicated pellet is a lot of wasted protein. Even if the ratios of protein types are correct, the urine could be acidic if it's just way too much protein. It's still broken down to urea and uric acid/ammonia.

Also, some bucks just need more personal attention to get the feed right. Animals have different metabolisms and digestive systems.


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I just went to the feed store and found a Stock and Stable by Nutrena for $10/bag. Basic 12% unmedicated. I didn't get it, I wanted to check and see. If I continue to feed alfalfa hay and give the 12% do you think he would do o.k. then? I suppose I could try a bag and see if there is any improvement. My other is fine, but am now wondering if they should also be on the reduced protein now? Another question...what about ac, I have a bag full of it, how do I handle it with the feed?


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Here's how AC works in the body:

After ingestion, it disassociates in the presence of water into chloride and ammonium ions. Some bacteria and yeasts will use the ammonium ions right away to build cell walls, so they are absorbed. They are used quickly in the rumen, even preferentially to protein-based ammonium derivatives (the protein in alfalfa, for example, is broken down in the rumen into ammonia, albeit slowly.). For the unused ammonium cations, they are absorbed and the liver converts them into urea. In order to convert them to urea, a H+ ion is liberated, which bonds to bicarbonate. And the chloride ions bond with metal ions like potassium and sodium and other similar bases. This results in a lowering of pH.

What causes high pH is ammonia. And there are two ways it can happen. One, if there are not enough bacteria and yeast in the rumen to quickly process the ammonia (this is why yeasts especially help). And two, if too much protein bypasses the rumen, which will release urea later on in the digestive process. That's why this bypass protein is a big deal.

The various metabolic functions are regulated by all sorts of things, but especially by fiber, and levels of calcium and phosphorus in the food. Too much phosphorus can form stones. Too little fiber is also about calcium balance in terms of the calcium regulatory system and how it works with bones.

So Linda, to answer your question , if you feed alfalfa and a basic grain, that will have a good ratio of the digestible vs bypass protein, a good ratio of Ca, and should provide good total protein and high energy. You shouldn't need to acidify the urine with that combo. You can, if you want, at a low dose, if there's still scalding. 

If you feed a pellet, those tend to have high levels of the bypass protein, and they try to make up for it with the AC. But if you do that plus alfalfa, that's way too much protein, because alfalfa is high in protein, too. So you get the high protein in rumen of alfalfa, the high protein of the AC, and the high residual protein from the bypass proteins in the pellet. Meaning if you want to use a pellet, you have to feed grass hay or some other thing low in protein, and make up for the calcium deficiency with a good mineral mix.

make sense? It's about keeping it all in balance (minerals, proteins, total energy, etc). Those 18% pellets are usually meant to be a cure-all fix for very low quality hay and forage, combined with a mineral mix.


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I think I get it...wow..ummm  I definetely will go to the 12%. I have always felt that money should be spent in good hay, they are ruminats after all..Thanks for your time Pav, much appreciated as always! Linda


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes...thanks Pav. We need your intellectual support. Or rather our goats do!
Thank you
Lee


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