# Ever seen this and what might cause it??



## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

Cream Puff(Boer/Lamancha 3 year old), kidded two days ago. She was bred to my Boer buck, same one as last year. Last year she had very nice triplets, the two doelings which I kept and are now bred, and a buckling. 
The labour started normally and progressed just fine. Two large feet presented themselves and next a nose. I was there to see it all and be sure it went well as it was about 15* in the barn that day. The kid was pushed out up to its ribcage when I noticed something odd coming out beside its chest. It looked like and was....intestines. Next push produced the entire kid. It was a beautiful big doeling with a hole in its side. Its intestines and other guts were spilling out the side. It wasn't a tear, it was simply an area that had never formed. Around one side of it was a little bit hairless, but other than that the edges were smooth and normal looking skin with hair. The slit ran from just under the ribs, down at a slant and right into her little udder area. I stretched her out to see what she looked like and she seemed normal except for that slit and the area around where her guts had slipped between her stomach wall and her hide, which was slightly puffy. She was very much alive and ready to face the world.  I put her down immediately.
Cream Puff proceeded to produce another beautiful large doeling who is totally normal. Momma and baby are doing great.
Any clues as to what caused the first kids problem??


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

Do you think the other kid could have pawed her just right when flipping around inside Mama and tore her abdomen?


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

No, it had definately grown that way, not been torn.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

This is a defect, and it's on that site Bernice would put up each year. It has to be over at DGP. But it is one of the photos and I honestly don't remember if it is genetic or a toxin. Doreen may also remember we found her Shizim on it also.

In children they simply put the intestines back in and stitch them up, with it on her side and not her umbilical I would actually have been tempted to give it a dry being careful not twist anything going back in...and I have my new staple gun for doing staples on the outside skin...with some matress sutures to hold the inside together even though you would have had to pull it from the sides. Would not have done it had it been an area that is prone to herniate, like the belly. 

Always enjoying your posts Emily! Vicki


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

I actually thought about trying to do as you described, Vicki. But I was concerned with the area of her udder, the tear ran right into it....thinking maybe that would cause stress on the area if/when she ever kidded. I weighed the options I'd have if she made it......I wouldn't feel good about selling her at least until she had successfully kidded and raised kids, it wasn't worth it just for a meat animal, and with all the stuff I have going on......I just decided to put her down instead. I can barely handle all the stuff we have going on right now, I just didn't think I could handle her as well. It was heartbreaking though, especially as her kids from last year are awsome. Thanks for the insight on this. It was not what I expect from a goat going into labour and it really had me on pins and needles to see what the second kid was going to look like when it came out!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/94928/gastroschisis_babies_born_with_organs.html

tons of excellent info on children, not on goats, and no more time to look. Vicki


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Did you give any drugs or wormer during pregnancy?


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Very interesting stuff.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

No, no drugs or wormer during pregnancy. Just the usual pre-breeding worming and Bose about two weeks before she was bred, then Bose and CDT about four weeks before she was due.


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

My 14 year old chihuahua then she was 13, had her last litter of pups and one of them had this same thing. and it too was still alive and ready to fight. I don't have a clue as to what causes it though..


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

Interesting read, Vicki.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Like Vicki said...it's a birth defect. 
I've seen it in a puppy delivered via c-section, baby goat born here, have been on calls for calves and foals born this way. Yes, we also put them down because-explained to me (who always asked questions) If the calves and foals had not contaminated the intestines, There's a complication of 1. anesthesia at that age 2. It's a very long surgery 3. Every edge of the *tear*(which actually isn't a tear) must be scraped to *freshen* the edges in at least 3 layers. Abdominal wall, muscles, and outer skin. 4. Price of surgery, Not to mention the possibility of infection, peritonitis,ect... 

You did the best thing by putting it down.
Kaye


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Kind of shocking that it is 1 in every 2000 briths in humans! Did anyone get far enough in the article to see if it was genetic or toxin? Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I read some other articles and from them I gather that no one knows and there a 4 different speculations as to what really happens but it is in the first formations in most cases. One of the speculative causes is that the mother took too many asprins in early stages of pg. Now we know that is not the case in animals


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Now, I know why Vicki and I don't live closer together! I can just see it now, "Vicki, I got a kid with weird defect...we're gonna' try and fix it!" 
Just to see if we can git er' done! :lol
Kaye


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Kaye my favorite story : I took a long needed vacation back to San Diego in Feburary (I start kidding in March) one year, no kids no husband, just to go visit home. I left instructions with my husband that nobody was to call me there, do not give out the phone number unless it was life or death, and only of my goats not others. A gal called and called, he kept telling her "I am sorry, she won't be home until Sunday night". About 8 messages at least from this gal were ready for me Monday morning, and sure enough before I could even call her back, she called again. I had to go about 30 minutes to her farm to help her with a severely ill doeling that was born while I was gone. So at least 6 days old by then.

I get to her farm to find a kid that is being tubed, she has half a top jaw, no lower jaw, a dropping eye, a dropping ear, like half her face was not developed all the way. "I knew you could fix her, I knew you would know what to do". I looked at her in udder disbelief and asked her if she thought I knew how to do plastic surgery or what?!!! She never spoke to me again  I also didn't get any diesel money  LOL!!!! Vicki


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## Karen Bailey (Oct 26, 2007)

Emily,
Thanks for sharing this. I'd much rather read about something like this and have the time to think about what I'd do in that situation before I'm actually in that situation myself. So many things *might* happen during kidding. I'm so thankful that through forums like this we can all be prepared for much much more than just our own individual experiences.


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm with Karen-- thanks for sharing, Emily. Sorry it happened to you, but it sounds like you handled it amazingly well.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2008)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> She never spoke to me again  I also didn't get any diesel money  LOL!!!! Vicki


I bet you didn't get a bologna sandwich either. :rofl

Sara


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I've seen a kid born with it's intestines on the outside. It was at my friend's place. She, also, put it down immediately. I think it was just one of those defects that is a fluke of nature. That kid's siblings were normal and no other kids looking like that were born to any of her many does that year.


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## Dreen (Oct 26, 2007)

Hey Emily, it is like Schlissinger Schism or something like that....some German S name!  I had a waaaaaaay deformed kid with seven legs and an extra head in the pelvis that also had it's intestines hanging out. On a repeat breeding, the same parents, a perfectly normal baby. I've only had it once, and that was more than enough. I hope to never go through it again, but if it were to happen, I'd know it was simply an anomaly and not anything I could change nor a genetic defect in my stock.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I think that in things like this, it's just a fluke, and there is no explanation. We've seen this, multiple legs, and many other weird things in our years of goat raising. Had a dairyman down the road, that had a Holstein heifer born with an extra front leg, it was attached up high on the shoulder, and unless she turned that side toward you, you would never know anything was wrong with her. It did have some reflexes in it, but other than that, it was useless, but a fully developed leg. He kept her and bred her, and was just going to let her live out her life on his farm. He contacted Ripley's Believe or Not Museum, and they said they would buy her "after" she died from natural causes. Really don't know what happened to her, cause he had to sell the dairy before he bellied up. Anyway, unless this happens repeatedly in a herd, or with the same breeding, I wouldn't spend time trying to figure it out.


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## Kalne (Oct 25, 2007)

How do you put these animals down? I have often wondered how we would do that if/when the need would arise.

Kalne


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

Sorry about your doeling,it's heartbreaking to have to put down a vigorus kid , I had a cleft pallet doeling a few years back,she was big,healthy and beautiful but she couldnt eat and couldnt be fixed, yes I emailed Vicki about her too :/

_*edited for quote misplacement - BlissBerry_


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Everyone deals with putting stock down differently...figure out ahead of time what you are willing to do. 

Putting them over to the side and just let them die (starvation, cold, low blood sugar, they go to sleep after crying a very long time and die), my dog would have a fit about this. 

Slit the jugular, you should have something out with you in the kid box for cutting navels, disposable scalpes are cheap in jeffers. 

Drowning, really when super busy this is my death of choice for kids. Two 5 gallon buckets filled with water during kidding by the barn. Dump the kid in head first, place the second full bucket on top, go back and deal with the doe and other kids. 

Take by the rear legs and sling into a post (I was actually taught this method, I am horrible at the actual aiming and doing this). 

A shot to the head (hammer, shovel both take incredible force or a gun) no way am I aiming at a tiny squirming head! 

I use a machete for older kids and butcher out unless ill and a gun for adults. 

A vet. I only use this choice when I want her to necropsy something for me. I pay a vet farm call, so after she is through, unless ill, we keep the meat. IF I put down Babette next week when her pergo test comes back negative, I am going to have her out to go through her reproductive organs with me. Vicki 

But it is something that should be handled very matter of factly and thought out before hand. Vicki


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

My friend put her deformed newborn down by drowning it. If I had a kid born that way, that's the way I would choose to do it. So far, I've been too chicken to kill any of my goats. I think a big part of that is my DH only has large caliber guns that might ricochet. We heed a 22. I had my vet put one down because she was already at the clinic and my friend's son shot another (also dressed him out to go in the freezer).


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Everyone deals with putting stock down differently...figure out ahead of time what you are willing to do.
> 
> Putting them over to the side and just let them die (starvation, cold, low blood sugar, they go to sleep after crying a very long time and die), my dog would have a fit about this.
> 
> ...


Out of those I think the only two I could do is leave them be or drown them. I don't have it in me to do the rest. Now for adults I'd have one of my brothers shoot them.

Thanks for posting. Its good to know what to do ahead of time.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Amy, I couldn't leave them be, it'ld break my heart. Death is a release.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Yea I see where you're coming from. 

:/ 

Hopefully it'll be a while before I'll have to decide to put them down or not.


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## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

Kalne I'm glad you asked about how, as I was going to.

Vicki, thanks for the "options". I don't really like my options, but I'd prolly drown or cut the jugular.

I'll just keep praying I never have to do this. The best option.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I have a problem with the older ones as don't own anything but a shot gun. I have no problem tho putting a goat down. Would never let it off to the side to die a slow painful death tho. Have to call in the neighbors first.


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## goatmom (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm glad the question came up also because I've wanted to ask and thought maybe it was too morbid a topic.

I can't bear the thought of one suffering so will give this some thought. 
Thank you Vicki for being so direct. We all hope and pray we don't have to face this but it's better to have a plan than just be a blubbering idiot (that would be me).


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

For putting down almost anything, I use my 22. pistol. One shot to the back of the head and its over. Can't imagine being without it.
But for this kid, I didn't want to leave the barn long enough to retrieve my pistol(anxiously waiting to see what the next kid looked like!), and I was alone at the farm. So I used the next best aproach for putting down newborns in my opinion. I laid its head on a flat rock(in Missouri there is never a shortage of rocks), picked up another large flattish rock(about 30 lbs of rock), and let it drop flat on the kids head. Gruesome, yes. But very effective and it leaves no doubt of the kids immediate death. I prefer this to whacking its head on a post, because as Vicki said, I do not trust my aim. I have used the rock method a few times over the years.
I could never leave them to die on their own and after a swimming incedence where I got lots of fluid in the lungs....I cannot think that the drowning method is very peaceful or painless, I will not do that.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

Thanks so much for all the insight on this. Its been great to know I'm not the first to have this happen. I wanted to get pics but didn't have the camera. Thanks again!!

Think I may post this over on HT for others to learn from.


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

in humans it is called gastroschisis and it is just a fluke of development.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Think I may post this over on HT for others to learn from.
.........................

Yeah just not our posts  

It's kind of amazing to me so many gals on here who do not own their own hand gun. I prefer my 22 rifle, but also own a hand gun, no way would I drive around the country alone or when my girls were young to shows everywhere and not have protection. Never used it, but perhaps that is why, you give off a vibe. Vicki


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2008)

When I was growing up we had a buck born with his bladder outside and his penis inside. Dad had no choice but to butcher him.


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

We have a bull up the road from us with 6 legs. His rear legs and remnants of scrotal sac are attached to his...let's see...left shoulder. It is really odd looking. The legs, etc are calf-sized and the first time we drove by when I caught a quick glimpse of it I thought it was walking around with a calf slung over it's back.

Re:gastroschisis...it is a defect that occcurs early in development when the skin, etc fails to form around teh forming intestines and stomach...from a (human) website...

What is gastroschisis?
Gastroschisis is an opening in the abdominal wall (muscles and skin of the abdomen) that appears during fetal development. The opening, which is usually less than two inches in size, occurs almost always to the right of the umbilical cord. As a result, the stomach, small and large intestines are not enclosed in the abdominal wall and appear outside of the fetus's body, leaving the intestine exposed to amniotic fluid, which contains the baby's urine. This contact may irritate the bowel, causing it to swell and shorten.

As the fetus grows, the opening may become smaller, and may tighten around the intestine, or the bowel could twist around itself. Both of these problems may lead to poor function of the bowel after delivery. This may lead to long term feeding problems.

How often does gastroschisis occur?
Gastroschisis is seen in about 1 in every 5,000 births, making it an uncommon birth defect. It is rarely associated with other chromosomal or structural abnormalities, although about 10% of infants have an intestinal atresia in which a portion of the intestine does not develop.

What causes gastroschisis?
Normally, during early development, the intestines, stomach and liver protrude to the outside of the body. As the fetus grows, these organs are "pulled in" and the abdominal wall forms around them. This does not occur in gastroschisis. As with many birth defects, the reason this occurs is unknown.

from http://www.childrenshospital.org/az/Site944/mainpageS944P0.html

I have to assume that it is similar in origin to goats.


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