# Kid without sucking reflex



## milkmaidranch (Jun 21, 2010)

Hi guys, 

Had a doeling born the other day with no reflex for nursing. SOOOOOO, I'm using a 3cc scyringe as she's so small. Putting it to the back of her mouth so she can swallow. Any input would be nice. I'm wondering if this can be learned, in 17 years of breeding, have never seen this. If I put peanut butter on the roof of her mouth, do you think it may work? 

Suzy


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## Holly Govero (Mar 26, 2009)

Did u give her bo se?? I heard that it is suppose to help with reflex. I hope someone will chime in.


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

All kids get a Bo-Se shot at birth here. Those with poor suck reflex get another shot the next day......

I know lots of folks who don't use Bo-Se because they are not in deficient areas, but unless every bit of their food stuff is produced on your non deficient land, then you are likely deficient. 

Bo-Se use & copper bolusing are some of the best tips I ever got from DGI! 

We had one mini Alpine kid at moms that we gave Bo-Se to for 3 days (1 shot per day) before their suck reflex was normal.


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## milkmaidranch (Jun 21, 2010)

Will do Crystal. 

Suzy


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

milkmaidranch said:


> Will do Crystal.
> 
> Suzy


Hope it helps! Will you have to bottle raise this one? Oh, and get a Vit E gel cap, poke it with a needle & give the gel to the baby after you give the Bo-Se.


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## milkmaidranch (Jun 21, 2010)

Been calling all over & can't find Bo-Se. Waiting on Trac Sup now


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## tmfinley (Feb 21, 2008)

Bo-se is a prescription drug.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Yeah, you need to get it from your vet. But this syringe thing is NOT going to be sufficient for your baby unless you plan to do it nearly 24/7. Do you know how many ounces she's gotten so far? You really ought to tube her. For a reference, you would have to give her 10 (3 cc) syringes FULL of milk/colostrum to equal ONE ounce. (That is to say, 30 cc's is approximately equal to one ounce.)


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Abilene has a Vet Supply that will fill RX items as long as you have a prescription from your vet..... Does Stephenville have something like that? I think Walco International in Abilene fills RX items too.... Just not familar with Stephenville area to know if y'all have something similar....


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

To further Stacy's post, the kid will starve to death if you do not learn to tube it. We have a thread now about tubing a baby goat, I will put it up at the top as a sticky so you can find it.

Using a syringe is futile, how much of each 3cc is she really swallowing? How much is going into her lung? I know in just trying to worm the pups with a syringe I wear a good 1cc for every 3cc I give them. 

Please learn the basics....we are hugely copper deficient and selenium deficient in Texas, plus we have so much iron in our soil/water/pastures that it further scews the uptake of calcium. And so many of the products we are using come from places that are even more selenium deficient than we are. Find a vet who will prescibe bo-se for you, give it to the dams as they are uddered up and going to kid, less than 2 weeks, it only lasts about 21 days in the bloodstream and 1cc per 40 pounds is not treating deficiency. Give all kids 1/4 to 1/2 cc at birth subq, every time you give bo-se to a kid, give them a 400 IU capsule of vitamin E, just snip the end and squish the contents into their mouth...does giving bo-se or selenium gels orally raise the blood level, we don't know nobody has blood tested for this, we have blood tested for subq injections. Selenium is about muscle tone, legs, pasterns, heart, sucking, uterus. Learn to tube, learn to pull blood, learn to bolus, learn to trim feet, learn to disbud, they are all just basic management. With this kid now not receiving adequate amounts of colostrum you need to really watch it, vaccinate at 3 and 6 weeks rather than waiting for CD&T vaccinations at 6 and 9 weeks, seriously consider pasturella vaccines at 12 weeks. Goatlings get all their immunity from colostrum, they do not get immunity via the placenta from their dams like we do with our children. Goats have the most interesting reproduction, they are not humans.

If you can't get a script find someone local with goats and get enough to give this kid bo-se shots for a couple of days. I don't really deal in sucking issues anymore, but I do have the stupidest buck who can't find the lambar nipple, nothing treats stupidity like this faster than another shot of bo-se.


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## milkmaidranch (Jun 21, 2010)

UPDATE: She has the BO-SE in her and is doing very well right now. Gums are good and pink, never had a problem there. Has a twin brother with no problem. Good thing Crystal text me and said it is with a perscription. Headed over the the vet and he didn't need to see her, he called Walco International here in Stephenville and I have a bottle, $15 and for what it does, that's a great price. She has a full belly and I do understand she needed to be tubed. That last time I did it, I killed the kid so you can see why I was not wanting to do it. She started sucking the scyringe with the last feeding so the bottles are out and ready for use. With the bottle of it now and my kidding season is over, can I give it to my older doe's that have kids on them that are a month old?


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## milkmaidranch (Jun 21, 2010)

Well, she is sleeping after taking part of a bottle, nursing it. YEAH. 

I feel I have to clearify something. This doeling is only 2lbs, a twin from a frist timer. Brother is just fine. As she is so small, I felt that the 30cc's she was getting was good. I didn't want to over flow her tummy. 

Vicki, I know with new people getting goats, your info was wonderful. I have never given BO-SE for the vets in my area continue to say we don't have the problems here in Erath County. NOW, one more time I don't believe them. This info was to me, life saving for this little doeling. The vet I went to for the perscription said not to believe what these groups tell me. Well, Dr. Vet, it is you I don't believe. Over the past 17 years I have been told many times and by many vets that they only get 15 minutes, yes, I said minutes, of goats in vet school. NOW, that is something I do believe from them. 

I thank eveyone here for their replies and concern. MMR NA Whisper Sweet Nothings is doing well as of now. 

Suzy


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I am glad she is doing better, and you can give bo-se at anytime. Vicki


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

We had a tiny triplet last year with a good suck, 2 lb 11 oz. She couldn't take more than an oz at a time the first day. Bottle feeding her was intensive, because she just couldn't take in much. An oz or two, and she was full! I think it took a month to get her to twice a day feedings. She grew just fine though.


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

I'm so happy she is doing good!!! 

Vets here say the same thing about selenium/Bo-Se 

But I have given once a month for 3 months to an older doe who was kind of a mess.... Really helped pull her up, and I have seen it help a doe I had who was down on her pasterns..... Lots of people freak & act like you're going to kill the goat with it, but I've had nothing but good results with it & use it routinely on my entire herd.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

LIKE


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Glad she's doing better, Suzy. Really glad you were persistent. Good for you!


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## milkmaidranch (Jun 21, 2010)

Well, this morning she is quiet but took 1/4 cup. She was very scoured during the night but as of an hour ago more like mud, not straight yellow water. Her dam still wants her so they spend some time together. Brother is very strong. Funny as they are the same size and she was the fisty one to begin with. Well, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing for her. I did see her pee last night so I know that's working. Will update.


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Not to hijack the thread, but if you don't live in a deficient area, can you overdose by giving bo-se?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Rachel~
Asking some questions will give you your answer.
Where does your feed come from?-where is it grown and what is the maximum available potential uptake of selenium for that type of ration- or if you feed mystery ration then you are sol on that one and they just add a vitamin pack. 
Where does your hay come from? Also grown in selenium rich soil and what type of plant and it's max uptake potential under PERFECT husbandry?
What is the ph of your water?
Do you raise all your feed and graze your animals exclusively on your selenium rich land with native plants that are adapted to the uptake of such elements?
Have you ever tested YOUR soil? Ours varies over our entire property from limestone exposure to weathered iron clay on top with the occasional bed of sand from creekbeds and all are different and produce a different family of plants with different nutrient capabilities and potential.

So...unless you are KNOW that your entire menu for your goats is NOT deficient and you also KNOW they are the kind of condition digestively to be actively extracting and processing selenium from their food intake then it is seriously doubtful that you can overdose. Geology maps were not made up to be representative of application to the husbandry of ruminants. They are simply geological statements of what is in the soil but mostly it has Nothing to do with intensive management of dairy goats unless you obtain all your food from your soil that has been tested for high levels of available selenium and are growing things that pick it up in the first place.

The best measure is the vitality of your kid crop- are they uniformly avid to eat with good suck reflex and no evidence of ligament and tendon issues? We find individual members of our herd- altho all eating the same have different requirements most readily verified at kidding season. 
If your kids do not jump up within a few moments of birth and start sucking the air to find something to eat you can use some selenium.  This year our kids are literally foaming at the mouth they are sucking sucking sucking while being dried.
But I use an off label level of selenium supplementation after learning of the benefits to both dam and offspring.

And do not forget your bucks. The fluid that sperm are delivered in is very rich in selenium and they become depleted readily during rut with all their typical antics. :/ Any unexplained loose stools in bucks can be indicating selenium deficiency. I have posted this before but here goes again...
Cattle people know that THE MOST COMMON SYMPTOM of selenium deficiency is otherwise unexplained diarrhea so I wonder why goat people don't equate the two especially in bucks after breeding without replenishment. It was a cattle rancher that told me to try selenium in my chronically loose LM buck all those years ago and it was the only thing that worked. The selenium is needed not just for immune support but for optimizing feed conversion as does proper copper levels so much so feed conversion in cattle has been measured to drop 30% with these nutrients missing and so they are not getting what they need from the food in adequate levels even if it contains the things they need.
and so on and so forth :biggrin

Lee


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Wow. I wish I had known that about the diarrhea. My first minimancha ever got diarrhea and we could never find out why. The vet couldn't figure it out. I couldn't figure it out. I finally put her down after three months of liquid diarrhea. I wasn't using bo-se back then but i did worm and do cocci prevention and the parasites were the only thing ever considered.


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## milkmaidranch (Jun 21, 2010)

UPDATE: Last night the doeling died. Yesterday afternoon, she would not swallow at all. Tubed her and she just got worse. Just one of those things and her twin brother has been fine the entire time. 

Suzy


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Oh, I am so sorry. That is so tough.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Aw man, so sorry Suzy!


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## milkmaidranch (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks, it happens and we all just have to move on for the rest of the herd. 

I want to thank everyone for your input.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Sorry, Suzy.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Awe, I'm so sorry for your loss.  You tried your best.


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