# PL 480 export of American goats to the Philippines:



## Asian Goats (Feb 12, 2009)

I am wondering if anyone knows anyone or themselves who might have sold goats and sheep as part of this export package of goats,1050 heads that will be exported to the Philippines at the end of August and a smaller number of export sometime in Sept.

I am just wondering if some quality animals are being exported or breeders culled crap.

Thank-you
Michael


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## Hollybrook (Jul 17, 2009)

Ive read about some Australian Saanan's being imported to PI but not heard about PL 480, why would anyone to great length's and expense to export/import 1050 cull's?


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## poppypatchfarm (Oct 26, 2009)

I was at a fair this past weekend with Pat Lantz(Remuda herd) and she says she is sending some very nice Nubian doelings to the Philippines.


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## Asian Goats (Feb 12, 2009)

PL 480 is the importation of goats and sheep from the USA for the Philippines approx 1800 heads.All imports of goats and sheep to the Philippines starts with PL,some sort of code I guess.In truth its the US Govt. that funds the purchase price and its like a long term loan,30 years or something like that.

Having imported goats myself from Australia to the Philippines I can tell you with all truth alot of cull crap goats was sold as breeding animals as I have the animals to prove it.CL comes to mind.I will admitt I should have done my homework first and hired a bloodstock agent to select the goats instead of trusting the importers in the Philippines.Sources have told me this happens all the time and its a way for breeders to unload goats that otherwise should be culled for the meat industry.The reason why one should hire their own bloodstock agent,the agent works for the importer and does the background checks on the animals lineage and breed standard.The old saying,buyer beware.

True there has been many saanens imported from Australia to the Philippines and from what I know they perform poorly as milkers and do better as crossbreeds (snubians) and the reverse snubian.

My farm in the Philippines was visited a few months back from some Govt. DA people and we were asked if we would be willing to warehouse some goats.My understanding is they wish for the farm to manage these goats and breed them for the state.My concern is this,we manage 100 breeding does mostly nubians and 12 breeding bucks and the feed bill is expensive enough along with the vet bills and all.I do not want to be stuck with goats that are duds as I own enough already as this will only add to my monthly expenses.There is no understanding of the breed standard in the Philippines and from my understanding I doubt if anyone could tell a good goat from a poor one.If I was certain that these goats in question are decent goats, not duds then I would be willing to help the Govt. with its plans to establish an in country dairy industry.Other than that, I already own enough crap.

Even some Lakeshore & Kast. from Ca. imported some years back have performed poorly so far and from talking with my friend, milk no better than my own,150 days average for nubians.I doubt very much if these goats from the USA will ever live up to their potential because of the 360 degree change.Some will die from lack of decent care and poor management practices.The environment,diet and the fact the goats will be hornless.From my experience so far its the generations they will produce that holds the key to the success for an in state dairy industry.

Thanks for the info on the Remuda herd.

Michael, owner of some very expensive living art on 4 legs.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Michael, 

most purebreds here are not bred specifically for production, that may be the misunderstanding ? A two gallon milker, while excellent producer and with dairy potential , with lose attachements is no longer considered show quality. At the same time a doe producing half the amount with better attached udder and good overall conformation is generally more desirable.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

I don't know if you've seen this website, seems to be pretty much Phillipine topics. This article looks to be from '07 so I wonder if this dairy is still successful. http://www.agribusinessweek.com/goat-dairying-has-great-potentials-part-1/


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Exports are dependant entirely on the quality of the buyer. We did a mexican export twice a year for 8 years here and they guys wer saavy. They judged your goats just like a dairy goat judge does in the show ring, they would walk through the goats clipped to the fence and you could see they could feel with their hands exactly what you should be looking for...spring of rib, length and width of loin, width in the brisket, smoothness to the foreudder, nothing in the udder but buttersoft tissue, good undamaged teats, a deep barrell (seen even in young milkers) and they pared down feet to really look at the sidewall. They looked at teeth and eye membranes. Something not making their cull could easily be sold to those starting out with boers.

Milkability is a crap shoot, especially with nubians.

There is info on this sale up on nubiantalk at groupsyahoo.com and few publically talk about exports unless like this one, it's having problems. 

The point is in all sales, all sales are culls, it's what the breeder is not keeping for themselves unless it's a sell out, and even then, brokers and friends hit sellouts first then what is left are culls. So make sure when picking a farm to buy goats from that the bottom half of their herd has enough depth to it, to make that cull worthwhile!

All goats who freshen for you out milk what they did during and after a move. And all cross breds are going to milk better in less managed situations because of hybrid vigor...but then take them back either saanen or nubian and you are right back where you started before. 

You were not given good advice on your purchases and you need to cull the original does, sounds as if their kid would be a much better fit anyway. Unless a government managed facility like the dairies we exported to, I would never recommend nubians. Vicki


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Philippines goat dairy website:
http://www.alaminosgoatfarm.com/


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## Asian Goats (Feb 12, 2009)

Thank you ladies for your advice.Yes Ms Vicki,I have found crossbreeds do better than their parents.My snubians are doing well so far,not show quality animals but milking better than their dams.I need my nubian does for the crossbreeding program.We did cull all goats that were suspect for cl and so forth.

Rose,I know Rene of Alaminos Goat Farm personally,we discussed the snubian as the best choice.

Prairie Nights,I do not believe any of us foreign investors are expecting show quality goats.When breeders misrepresent the quality of their stock like selling you goats with possible cl,roached backs,steep rumps,posty legs and so forth and charge you top dollar,ya I have a real problem with that.

Laverne,there is a small and growing dairy industry,cattle cannot handle the tropical heat so the idea of using goats for milk seems more practicable.The problem at first was,most of us believed the nubian would be the breed to most likely succeed.Not so.

Thank-you ladies for your imput
Michael


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Please keep us posted about your endeavors. I am interested in the Philippines also since my sister in law is from Davao.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Michael, do you prefer horns on your goats? is there a way to investigate sending extras to export? I have nubians. I'd rather see extras go to a good cause then just in the freezer. I'm breeding for proction as welll as quality, just starting out but I'll get there.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Michael, 

I know several breeders who have consigned goats to this export. All well- bred goats from clean herds. "culls" in their herd? Perhaps, but that just means that they milk well and will appraise at 85 and 86. Very nice start to anyone's herd. Just not going to beat their same age counterparts in the show ring. Considine did a good job of contacting good breeders for their goats. 

We did not send any - I can get a lot more than $300.00 for a doe in milk, or a doe kid, plus this looked like a pain in the butt for the breeders (and thus it turned out to be), so am grateful that I wasn't involved in it. I think you can plan on getting some nice bloodlines and above average goats. Still, double check the goats... can't speak for everyone involved, just the people that I know. 

Good luck in your endeavors. Sincerely hope that the genetics you all receive will really give you a leg up.

Camille


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

It is always difficult raising livestock in a new environment. It takes a while for the individual animal to adapt. Sometimes bloodlines have been adapted to certain climates or management, and it may take generations of picking and culling to get up to top production in the new environment.

I raise dairy sheep, and see that even with European and New Zealand stock and semen, using their equipment and their management techniques, the dairies in the USA are not yet as productive as the original dairies overseas. It takes time. Some of us blend the lines we want with native animals that are better adapted to our climate and forages (so we are starting to develop a "New York Dairy Sheep" breed -- perhaps -- and the people in Wisconsin may be doing the same for a couple of different breeds and management methods).

I think that the animals need to adapt to the new climate, soil, forages, etc. In the end, you may end up producing your own breed made up of good genetics, but keeping what you need and discarding the rest. Just don't discard too soon, and don't keep everything that is pretty.  

Best wishes,
Chris


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Lucky Hook sold some of her animals to the Philipines. She is actually a little sad about it cause they are nice animals. I too would like to get in on some export sales that will help other countries sustain living. Not all sheep and goats are going to the Philipines to be show goats, they are going to provide for families. If the animal is in good conformation then they will serve their purpose just fine.
Tam


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

seems odd ot me that they would look from upper west coast for animals if the SE like LA and MI, FL, TX, etc might be hot and steamy and closer to the climate they are adapted to. WHat am i not understanding?


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## Asian Goats (Feb 12, 2009)

So far seems the bloodlines are top notch,most likely the finest to be imported since the first imports started back in 2005,except for the importation of the Lakeshore and Kast. bloodlines back in 2007-08 and if these 2 bloodlines would have ended up in the hands of a much more experienced person their outcome would have been more positive.

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out and who will really benefit from this program.

Just as Squire stated,crossbreeding to breed a new animal will have a more positive outcome.

I would think since the US Govt. is paying for the purchase of these animals they would try and buy them at some sort of discount.Shipping livestock by air for 16-18 flight time will be costly and maybe one reason why some of the stocks are coming from the Pacific Northwest,less travelling time meaning less shipping costs.The goats will have their summer coats anyway which is better than having their winters coats.

There is no goat shows in the Philippines, show goats are just like any other goat,a goat is a goat in that part of the world.

For those of us with the experience of importing,found that the imported animals do rather poorly compared to the countries they were imported from.The future generations they will produce and letting them keep their horns is really the deciding factor for the future of the industry.

The future of the dairy industry depends on the quality of the stocks arriving and the people who push themselves to get this industry off the ground.The cup is looking half full rather than half empty.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

In addition to the closer proximity to Seattle, some of the best herds are in the Northwest. Finishing a champion in any breed is a tough proposition here. Y'all probably got some very fine animals.


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

poppypatchfarm said:


> I was at a fair this past weekend with Pat Lantz(Remuda herd) and she says she is sending some very nice Nubian doelings to the Philippines.


Yes Pat has and Wendy Glunt sent some I think and Katharine Hendrickson was going to, but she may have backed out, she was iffy last I heard... I know ALOT of people from NW WA sent goats, the markets horrible here LOL


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## frontiers (Aug 20, 2010)

From the middle of the USA, Wyoming, Nebraska and Colorado sent 64 head to the export to the Philippines. They were from some of the top herds who won at the recent American Dairy Goat Association National show in June. The Phillipine people came and selected from herds and blood tests were drawn the first week in May for CAE, Brucelosis (several kinds), Johnes, Q fevor, Blue Tongue, TB and vaccinated for soremouth. Quarentined for over 90 days and shipped in August. Some of the best genetics and several herds are on milk test with production records from ADGA. We hope they acclimate and do well for generations to come. 
Janelle Anderson


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

We noticed what we thought were out of country buyers at Nationals seriously writing things down thru the whole event. I was wondering where the goats ended up. They were avidly watching and taking notes and one man was talking into a recorder as the goats went by. 
They were very knowledgeable and did not seem like they would be buying any but the best.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's what we have been talking about Lee, privately. The problem is although selling the best sounds really good, can the best milkers with their over the top management even live, let alone milk in the kinds of conditions that they will move into? It's what I was trying to elude to in my above posts, send a doe who is capable of top 10 milk amounts into what is a 3rd world country when it comes to livestock management, of course they are going to do poorly in their new environment. Grain is none existent and alot of these animals have never browsed for much of their diet before, let alone milked off browse. But you can not talk exporters into taking kids. Taking fat yearlings and letting them have time on their new groceries, breeding them, then freshening them while on what is now browse they are used to, sure they will never milk what they do on USA rations but they will live and milk. They want the big Swiss breeds, and out powerful Nubian's when in reality a good grade Lamancha doe is exactly the kind of doe they should be buying and breeding their native goats to LaMancha bucks out of top 10 does. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

They were very excited about the Saanen ring and really got active with writing stuff down.
I would think the second generation could do well raised under their management and climate conditions. 

Seems like summer would be the worst time for quarantine and shipping.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

It would seem prudent to me to at least look at herds in the areas of the US that were in similar weather conditions, checking them out in the Summer, seeing how they were handling the heat and their production. But to buy goats from the north,like here in the NorthWest, living in cool weather most the year, genetically, possibly, for generations, throwing them into brutal heat and humidity, sounds like a big risk.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

And they will of course blame the goats for any failures.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I would say if they were purchasing from the Northwest then spring shopping, summer shipping. We have been reaching triple digits for three weeks now with extreme warm nights. So our goats would have had an easier transfer into a more humid/warm climate than say in the spring or fall. Other areas of Washington have been extremely hot as well. The only other problem I could foresee would be throwing estruses out of cycle.

And it is alot like here. We order kids from the south, say purchased one from Vicki. That animal goes through at least 3 months of adjustment to get to where weight gain is steady, establish a place in the herd, and vent through all the various meds and prevents. So it really is no different.
Tam


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You really have to live in humid conditions like we do to even get the difference. We have been at triple digits for weeks, but you add our opressive humidity and you have goats dieing during transport or getting pnemonia from the transport. Yes you have humidity, but nothing like it is here. Like my Mom said when she came to visit to help me tile the house, it's like walking around with a soaking wet bath towel, you feel 10 pounds heavier, it's harder to breath and your always wet. Vicki


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Thinking about it, I'm guessing someone thought about the weather when transporting the goats. They probably did it in December or January, temps around 80 degrees over there, their winter. That would give the goats some acclimation time.
It would be interesting to hear about the details of the shipment, time of year, feed transitioning care, age of goats. Can goats eat brown rice?


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