# Scouring Kids



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

I am trying to gather as much advice as possible. We are having a problem with scouring kids. All of our kids were scouring a while back, they dried up and now a few of them are scouring again. They are all eating well and active but 2 of them are starting to drop weight. We have never had this problem before. Here's some info...

Their diet- They were on an 18% sweet dairy feed but I read that the molasses could contribute to scours so for now I changed them over to a dry mix which is a simple mix of whole oats, alfalfa pellets and a little bit of cracked corn. (we are very limited on feed choices). They've been on that for about a week.They are in a pasture that offers full browse on grass and various weeds/brush. They have full hay (mainly rye grass hay and also a little wheat hay) and then minerals, baking soda and milk. And of course water at all times.

Worming schedule- We are on the Hoegger's Herbal Wormer. And last week I hit them with Ivermectin Plus for worms and Toltrazuril for Cocci which is supposed to be the most effective chemical Cocci treatment available right now. ??

The scouring kids are approx 2 months and 4 months.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

I've heard kids get scours from either worms, cocci, diet change, bacteria, or too much milk. Maybe I'm missing one...
Vicki mentioned it.
First of all, don't bother using herbal wormers ever, especially here in Texas. 
You may have to deworm them again, maybe not. Check their fecals for worms and coccidia. There may be an overload.

What color and texture is their scours? Are they all the same?

What about their coat condition? Also check the inside of their eyelids, are they pale or light pink?


----------



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

The scours are the normal "poop" color. Sorry...that's the best I know how to describe it. Maybe a little greener. But they are browsing a lot. It's a thick scour. Not complete water. 

Their coats are healthy/have a shine and their eyelids have normal color. I have always used herbal wormers (Mostly Molly's) because I don't like having a milk withdraw period. We've never had a lot of physical signs of worms. But I know that their aren't always physical signs.


----------



## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

Anytime I see scours it means worms to me and the first thing I do is a fecal and check eyelids !

There is *** LOTS of problems with the Barber Pole worm or HC / _Haemonchus contortus_ at this time . ****

I myself have 2 FF does down after kidding weeks earlier that I wormed with Cydectin on day that they kidded ,1 doe with scours and 1 doe with repeat bottlejaw These 2 does are Boers and so far all 3 kids appear fine.

With Texas heat all goats that are troubled with worms at this time are most likely the Barber Pole or _Haemonchus contortus_ HC worm that sucks blood and can kill within days. The goat can appear very healthy with no signs of worms and the next day quit eating, scours and die with the goat still looking great in condition!!!!

***** CHECK THE EYELIDS AND DO FECALS ... DAILY !!!!!!!! *******

Here is Hoeggers supply and even they have had losses and problems with the Barber pole HC worms this year !!
http://hoeggerfarmyard.com/goat-vs-barber-pole-dont-let-the-worms-win/

This is a bad year for losses due to HC worm , so take no chances CHECK YOUR GOATS DAILY !!!


----------



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

So...what kills the Barber Pole / HC worms? I don't have a way to check fecals.


----------



## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

Read through the Wormers and Cocci Meds board on here. Lots of helpful threads. 
You can use any of these to kill HC, most you can find at tractor Supply or feed stores:

Quest Gel- dose is 1cc per 100 pounds
Zimectrin Gold- dose is 1cc per 50 pounds
Cydectin Pour-On for Cattle- dose is 1cc per 22 pounds
Ivomec (1%)- dose is 1cc per 25 pounds

Pick a dewormer from above, give dose orally, then repeat in 10 days.

If you don't have a microscope, you can ask vets around you if they can do fecal egg counts for your goats.
There is also a lab you can mail them fecal samples, contact info is in GK101.


----------



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks so much for all of your tips. Hoping and praying we can get through this without losing a kid. I hate for them to be scouring especially in this heat. What can I give the 2 that have dropped some weight to help them put it back on quickly. I hate for them to look thin like that.


----------



## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

Nothing drastic or they'll scour from change of diet. 
You can slowly increase either their milk or alfalfa pellets and give them a little more.


----------



## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Cydectin also comes in a sheep drench, that you use at the dosage on the label. I would do some form of cydectin (and Quest horse wormer is the same active ingredient) if I had a similar problem. You don't have a vet who will do a fecal for you?


----------



## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

You really need to make sure they're hydrated. I would only trust Quest gel or Cydectin for their worming to get Barberpole. My goats can have pink eyelids and still need worming. Vicki has experienced this also. I'm not sure about the Toltrazuril, a fecal would be good to check the numbers on cocci. If there is a problem then I'd go with Di Methox for treatment, clean them out with that, then switch to Corid. I like Corid since it builds immunity so that's my preference and it's recommended for prevention in the link below.

In some areas Liverfluke can only be kept at bay this time of year. You used Ivomec plus that will get Liverfluke. Here, I used Cydectin for prevention every 20 days and gave Valbazen a couple times during their prevention period to get any Liverflukes since I know I have a problem with them. Valbazen and the plus in IvomecPlus get Liverfluke.

Vicki's protocol here is excellent for preventing diarrhea in kids. http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f20/birth-till-kidding-kid-management-17520/ I would stick like glue to this if I had kids but I'm glad my does keep milking for years so I don't have to bother with kids.


----------



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

I loaded up my 2 scouring kids that are dropping weight this morning and took them to the vet. He did a fecal on both. Both have a high count of tapeworms. One was loaded with cocci and one barely had any cocci at all. I thought that was strange. The vet said that chemically treating worms is hardly affective anymore. I've been told this before. He said that raising goats in East Texas is hard because of parasites. Again...I've been told this before. He gave me enough valbazin to treat the whole herd. he said if that doesn't work then we'll try something else. He didn't seem hopeful. He said to treat them again with the toltrazuril for cocci. How can I do fecals myself and where can I buy the stuff needed? To take samples in for testing at the vet is $18.25 per sample. That adds up quick. :/


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I raised goats in East Texas for several years and it is hard, but it is not impossible or hopeless. There is alot of information on this forum that will help. Looking in the Goat Keeping 101 section for Vicki's birth to kidding article. It outlines how to raise kids on a prevention protocol, and how to take care of your older goats too. Also look in the section on worms and wormers. There is info on fecaling. Tape worms are easy to treat with a white wormer. Valbazen will work, but even safeguard will work - given at 3X the dose on the bottle for 3 days. I give Zimectrin Gold horse paste. Tapes can do a number on kids, but aren't a serious concern for adults. Worm for tapes at 3 weeks, then use cydectin at 6 weeks and every three weeks after that til weaning. I use Corid for the coccidia every three weeks til weaning. Others will have to comment on the schedule for the drug you are using.

The trouble with vets is they are only talking to the people failing at parasite control that's why it seems impossible. Also look into copper blousing. My goats were very copper deficient when we lived in Texas. Be prepared for the vet to be skeptical on that. Also keep an eye on the expiration dates on your products. I have noticed they loose effectiveness if they expire (but work at higher dosages).


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

There is fecalling info in the Wormer & Cocci section of the forum. How-to's and everything. I found it very much worth the money to spend on a microscope and slides. Get the McMaster slides. I got my microscope from AmScope, I think, but also check Craig's List and Ebay.

I use toltrazuril (1cc/5 lbs), but I must use it every 3 weeks for a couple of months. It does not work (for ME) with a single dose. Yes, I do only give one dose for that period, but like I said, I have to give it every 3 weeks to keep my cocci numbers down. When the numbers were out of control like they were last year (no real winter here the year before), I did switch to DiMethox for one course. I love DiMethox for treatment of coccidiosis, but revert to toltrazuril for prevention.


----------



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

Thank you very much for your advice. I feel encouraged.


----------



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

*Scouring Kids ...AGAIN.*

OK...I am so frustrated! We are scouring again. We have a buckling that started to dry up but never got completely to the "normal poop" point. Everyone else went back to normal. He's now in a full scour again as well as another doeling and now one of my milkers who hasn't scoured until now. We had another fecal done and still showed tape worms. We've done valbazen, levamisole, and ivermectin that the vet gave us. I've also taken them off of Hoeggers and have had them on Molly's for the past week. I'm going to pick up some Quest horse wormer today but at this point I'm not very hopeful.  I'm almost ready to get out and get a milk cow. Never have we had this problem before. I'm wondering if it has something to do with our very mild winters these past couple of years??? Has anyone ever tried burning out your pastures and pens?? I've thought of this but I'm afraid I'll burn my barn and stalls down. :/ Ideas on what else to do anyone??


----------



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Mild winters cause massive parasite outbreaks. I am fighting them myself even though we had a pretty nasty, never ending winter. We have had a warm soaking wet spring, wet hot summer so far. Worms, ticks, fleas and flies love this weather.


----------



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

I know what you mean. Thankfully, the flies have died out some. They were so bad you couldn't stand going outside. The ticks are horrible too. We have to check the kids (the 2 legged ones) over really well when they come in from playing. And of course the worms...COME ON WINTER!


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I could almost guarantee you that you have barber pole worms, and you need to use Quest or Cydectin (same thing). With the cydectin you can safely use as much as 1cc pour on per 10 lbs (double what is recommended on here). You may have to repeat every 10 days to 2 weeks for awhile until you get things under control. What do the eyelids look like? It they are anything but vibrant bright almost red pink, you need to worm with cydectin for barber pole worms. Once you get a handle on it, it won't be so bad, and you won't have to worm so much. Those others wormers will not adequately control barber pole in TX.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Also not sure your set up, but you will be better off with smaller dirt lots than with small pasture/paddocks that get eaten down really close. If you have small pastures, control graze and only let them on it when the grass is several inches tall.


----------



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks so much Angie. My mother is going to town today and is picking up the Quest wormer for me. I will be so glad when this is over!

As for my set up. I have the buckling in a good sized pen and stall in the back of our goat pasture where our stalls are so we won't have any breeding accidents when the girls start coming in. He has grass and weeds in the pen. The rest of the herd (currently only 2 milkers and 6 kids) have stalls in the back of the pasture where the water trough and hay are located and they have a small pasture that is around a 1/2 acre-ish. They have grass and weeds up to there bellies as well as some brush along the fence line. ? I'd like to do some kind of rotation grazing/browsing but would need to figure out the best way to do it. Fences, shelter, easy access to milking stall and such.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Up to their bellies doesn't sound all that short. I used to have pens where they kept the grass clipped like a lawn, and that wasn't good. I've never managed rotational grazing, but do control grazing by only turning out on the pasture when the grass is high and pulling them off when it is eaten down.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Have they been treated for coccidia?


----------



## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

What dosage were you using for the other wormers? Often vets won't give you the proper dosage, which ends up in the wormer not working. I am in Northeast OK and my vet (who is very good with goats) has me giving the Valbazen at 1 cc per 10 lbs, 3 days in a row. With the sheep cydectin, he has me giving 1 1/2 times the sheep dose.

I'm trying to think if there is anything in the grass that could cause scours, I know my cows will get a little looser than normal when the grass is richer, in the spring and sometimes they will do it in the fall too.


----------



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

Yes we have treated for cocci. Several times. I'll have to look at the valbazen bottle but I want to say it was 1 cc per 25 pounds. Looks like that wasn't enough. :/ I don't remember on the lavamisole I already threw out the bottle. The ivermectin I used the dosage given on here. For the cocci/totrazuril 1 cc per 5 pounds. Sorry...I have been giving them so much of this and that they are all starting to run together. I did give them a dose of Quest yesterday morning. I couldn't get a syringe to draw it in because it was so thick. I remembered someone here saying they administer it double the dose so I did that using the little click gage on the Quest tube. I did see some nasty little yellow looking worms in one of my doelings stools yesterday morning. I so hope this works. :/ How soon should I see improvement? And what is the milk withdraw with using the Quest? I do have a doe in milk that I gave it to.


----------



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

I just came in from checking on the goats and it looks like everyone is dried up except the buckling. He still looks a little soft but not liquidy. Praise God.  However...my milker who had recently started scouring still doesn't look like she's feeling well. The last couple of days she's been laying down a lot. She was laying down this morning when I went out to do my morning chores. She came in but turned her nose up to the feed. Although she did act like she was hungry. She'd look at the feed, look at me, look around... By the time I finished my chores she had already bedded down with her kid while the rest of the herd had already went out to browse. She's still laying down. Any recommendations on what I can do to give her a pick me up? I thought about giving her a shot of B Complex. ?


----------



## JN (Nov 4, 2011)

She's up and about.  Just found her licking up some minerals. Praying we have pulled through this mess for good. Thanks again for everyone's help.


----------



## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

Just in case, keep an eye on your doe to make sure she does not crash. You can give her some probiotics and baking soda to calm the gut, and some vitamins/mineral paste/gel to help with energy and appetite.
Dose for Quest is 1cc per 100 pounds, or 1/4th cc per 25 pounds.
I normally pull the plunger out of a 3cc syringe, then line up the Quest opening with the larger end of the syringe, and squirt a little at a time, put the plunger back in and push to get to your measured dose.
I'm sure there may be an easier way, but that's how I do it


----------



## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

Milk withdrawal time for Quest, or moxidectin, is 56 days.


----------



## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I usually just withdraw the milk for about a week, but it is your own preference how long you want to wait. Whenever I ask my vet, he doesn't give a definite answer since the products haven't actually been tested in goats, but just says to give it a week. If you are really concerned, you can find someone who can test the milk for any residue and they should be able to tell you when the moxidectin is out of her milk.


----------

