# OK, so how much does it really cost?



## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

I was wondering if anyone has crunched the numbers how much it costs per year to keep a goat ? I know there are some variables but any general ideas? Feed, basic meds, etc?

Jana


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

No way. I do not want to know! When i first got goats I figured it out. I had one Spanish goat and she had triplets. I only fed a measured amount of pellets and she hardly cost me anything. With the meat from her two buck kids and the sale of her doe kid, I certainly broke even. But now, seriously, I don't want to know...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It used to be a pretty good rule of thumb that milkers cost you about $1 a day, for some the cost has nearly doubled. Why milk is so dear and why adding more goats in the form of kids has to really be thought out, how much milk do you need and how much milk can you sell? How many kids can you sell and what is your glass ceiling for prices. It also should be setting the base price of your kids you sell, $400 here.

Milkers are of course the biggest cost, kids and bucks have the same price here, with dry does (which really are the worst economic loss to the farm) costing the least, at least in labor and feed.

How many as they do their taxes each year and don't show high end shows or money fairs, are going to breed their does younger so they don't have old yearlings or two year olds kidding for the first time? How many will go to every other year kiddings giving does extended lacations? And of course how many will get out of goats because of the pure economics of it all, it is getting cheaper to purchase goatmilk for a family than it costs to produce it when you only have a few goats. Or you have to ditch all the high end ways of doing things and simply have a few goats for family milk, which doesn't sound to bad  Vicki


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## Fiberaddict (Jun 4, 2009)

I don't know - and I don't WANT to know. Our goats are for family milk....and cheese, ice cream, soap, etc. Since Ian is allergic to cows milk, we'd be buying goats milk anyway...it's just better for us to get it straight from the source. :lol


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

I do tell my customers and folks wanting to get into goats for "milk for family" that it is much cheaper to just buy the milk, since you have to count up start up cost, purchase price for the milker and the feed bill. Fun fun. I have recently started keeping track of the alfalfa pellets (bags of them) we go through in a week, yikes, yikes. Better be some golden kids next year, lol. 

My best option is to milk through the winter this year (and probably from here on for a while) to have continuous milk supply and round up more customers in fall/winter months when everyone else dries up their does and gets a break. 

Jana


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

No way do I want to know! I have a rough idea how much it costs just to buy hay and grain each pay period (every 2 weeks) for my 9 dogs, 12 goats, 3 horses, 30 chickens and 2 cats. The meds, minerals and other supplements, vaccinations, etc. I have not figured out. The feed bill alone is scary enough.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> fall/winter months when everyone else dries up their does


That IS a good strategy Jana- We always bred half the girls in July to kid in November so we had milk year round and also fresh does to sell year round. You will fill a niche if you are willing to milk all year and tend two crops of kids. It is demanding but it is a way to keep the money coming in when the most feed is going out!


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## hyamiranda (Jul 24, 2009)

I guess the question is what kind of return on investment do you want to get? I think for each of us it calculates out a little differently.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Another breeder here locally did the math and found it costs her approximately $2/day per goat. That included everything, from feed to vet bills to wormings. I am hoping that since we grow our own hay, that we can do it for less than that! I also hope to eventually grow our own grain, but we are not there quite yet. And with dh leaving for a year in Egypt, it's going to be a little bit until we are ready to do that. We did, however, plant 3 acres of alfalfa last fall, and it's growing well. We used winter wheat as a nurse crop, so our first cutting this year was with the straw, but I hope to get two more cuttings of decent alfalfa hay, and if I can replace alfalfa pellets with that, it will save us a LOT of money. (We spend about $30/week on alfalfa pellets...whereas the hay would only cost us $1.25 a bale because we have to pay someone to come bale it for us. The initial cost for planting that field was in the neighborhood of $400, but it should produce for about 5 years. And we already made some money back selling the straw, plus we are using the wheat for ourselves.)


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<<I guess the question is what kind of return on investment do you want to get? >>

Actually, I left that out of the question completely, lol, since that's a whole another bag or worms, right? Just trying to get some numbers straight. Whether that expense is worth it and how much it is worth to each one of us is differs I am sure. 
Whether we try to break even, get ahead, make profit or money is not an issue is also individual.

Lee, thanks for the heads up. Milkers are worth their weight in gold here in winter and I can get top price with no hassle. Already have folks asking. I'll start a different thread about set up for winter milking. I am dreaming of a heated barn and seriously thinking about transforming the shed close to the house into a milk room/soap room and keep the few winter milkers in the pen close by.

Jana


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

I don't expect to make any money off my goats. Maybe one day I will break even. I have them because I love them and their milk.


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## Terri-Lynn (Nov 7, 2007)

I have figures on feed only which is $324 per year per adult. My math is slightly skewed in that I did not count kids into the equation (kids eat for free lol). My numbers don't fluctuate very much- I sell almost all kids quite quickly before they are eating a lot of grain/hay, sold an adult milker but am keeping a doeling as a replacement so it's pretty accurate.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

You also have to think about the time cost. It can be a lot. It stinks sometimes when everyone is going to do something and you can't because you have to be home tonight to milk and feed.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

ugg....I'm looking for ways to stay OUT of the feedstore. Can't figure it out though. If i don't mix my own grains..using whole barely for instance because it is cheaper...grain right now is running me about $50 a week. That feeds 4 milkers and 9 kids...and right now I'm being spare with grain for the buck kids...so still have to cocci treat...adding more to that amount. 

Hay for that crew is about $10 and that is cheap grass/clover hay at 2.50 a bale. And then alfalfa pellets are fed more sparingly than I'd like because we have so many kids, but I'm spending about $30 a week for those.

So, just for feed it comes out to $90 a week for 4 milking does and 9 kids. I'm not feeding the buck or the wether except just a little flake of hay now and then...they've got plenty of grass and weeds at the moment. 

This is depressing. Whose idea was it to figure all this up anyway? No wonder I'm always broke!

Good new is I've got potential customers coming to look at kids today....three of em! I told them if they bought a doe from me, I'd give them a buck...Yep, losing money, but at least I'll be saving it at the feedstore.


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## hyamiranda (Jul 24, 2009)

Oat Bucket Nubians said:


> I don't expect to make any money off my goats. Maybe one day I will break even. I have them because I love them and their milk.


Return on Investment isn't just about breaking even with the money. ROI is usually hard to determine because there is subjective value involved. I think that if we didn't think we got some kind of ROI, happiness, health, entertainment, companionship, none of us would be here. I'm lucky, I guess. We are feeding them my father-in-law's hay, clover and grass, and all we have to buy is the grains, meds, etc.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Sorry Anita, my great idea !

My biggest expense is definitely the pellets and I still feed free choice. Will sell half the herd if I have to so I can feed the other half. With 5 milkers and 3 dry yearlings I go through a 50lb bag a day so it's $70 a week in alfalfa. I dont think I spend anywhere the amount on grain. Grain is only 10% of the does diet and I am only raising 5 kids, many of them already eating pellets well while still on bottle. They get their Noble Goat pellets but of course, don't eat the amounts the milkers would if fed free choice. 

Hay is not very popular right now, it's mostly the horse and bucks eating it. Sheesh, I guess I am not figuring out bucks but hope to break even on their cost with stud fees/lease this year, only keeping two. 

The $2 a day per adult doe sounds about right. That does not even include any labor, the cost of the barn, equipment, filters, jars for milk, etc etc. Having the dairy goats has definitely been a great investment into my childrens character and skill building and nowhere as expensive as private school tuition or college loan, ha ! It has also been good for hubby to spend more time outside and discover his handyman side he didn't know he had  

If I was truly calculating the money coming in and money coming out, I would include Ashley's statement that often because of milking schedule we don't go places. That has saved a ton of money on entertainment expenses and I can't remember the last time any of my children were bored. So we don't do Chucky Cheeses, etc. plenty of entertainment here, ha !

Surprisingly, even with company visiting, we don't go out or seek activities as much as we used to. For one, we live in OK, not the most touristy place to be, when we lived in Maine it was different. But the things our company actually enjoys are centered around the farm. Trying their hand at milking, visiting with the goats, children helping to bottle the kids, showing folks how to make cheese, introducing them to goat's milk soap, etc. Our company had a great time and we spent most of it right here, ha ! CHEAP, I tell you. Also saving $$$$ on family vacation since we milk year round, that's just not going to happen. Our vacation or field trips consist of picking up deposited kids in Texas, visiting with other goat farms, going to shows, etc. What a thrill, ha !!

I sure did not mean to depress anyone 

Jana


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Jana I am stunned at your alfalfa outlay.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I posted this chart once before...it shows the cost per gallon of milk at different management costs...assuming a doe milking for 10 months. For me, Terri-Lynn's estimate is correct. I figure $300 per year for an adult animal, or $25 a month. Dry stock is figured at $15 a month (no grain). I spend about $1,000 a month to feed around 75... does not include meds, etc. Feed costs vary a lot for all of us, they vary so much across the country, and access to forage can really bring down your feed bill.

Here is the chart:


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<<Jana I am stunned at your alfalfa outlay. >>

HUH??


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Me also since I am feeding 8 milkers, 4 bucks and 5 dry yearlings on that same 50 pounds of alfalfa pellets. I do have some free choice going on with alfalfa pellets as the girls kid and start lactating, but with so much to eat in the woods/pastures they simply don't need free choice.

It's a shame that you all don't fill out your schedule F's...it's and excellent way of keeping tabs on the true costs of all this. How else can you figure out how much to charge for milk, cheese, soap, pay yourself first or even your kid prices. If you can't sell milk and cheese, and don't make soap, than your foolling yourself that you kid prices are high enough for what some are selling even on this forum.

You have to depreciate your barns and fencing etc...because you have to mend them...you have to know how much that gallon of milk is costing and how many gallons of milk your does give you because otherwise it's to easy to get rid of the goats because they cost you so much, when in reality if you replace it with grocery store milk (your health) or milk from another farm...here $10 to $16 per gallon. Just this week time your trips out the door and to the barn and back....think about paying yourself even minimum wage for the milk in the house...or your milk for your soap...are you really getting milk to make soap for free?

At the very least your goats should be paying their way or you need to cull down to those who do. And don't let whoever is paying your feed bills read this thread


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Well for summer I am just used to mostly feeding what they feed themselves! This time of year they do not want alfalfa and I am thankful. Milk production is of course not nearly what you get from confinement feeding but that works here since their main job is to eat so we don't have to bushhog and that means milk is mostly a result of my labor not my expenditures. It also lets you have more goats than you could feed in confinement on a budget that makes them pay for themselves. 

It takes complete marketing of every aspect of the out put of the herd to make it pay - that or huge numbers in an affluent marketing area. Ours graze and browse mostly. They get about a pound of grain mix a day this time of year and you can see they are struggling to put it down and would rather have cucumbers and melons and such and in fact stand at the trough where we feed chopped veggies and holler if it is empty when they come in at night. This is farming goats not dairying so of course we are not on milk test or trying to market does based on poundage output and this would not work for many. As I said- they have a job and the numbers have to make sense in the big picture. 

But looks like your does are getting over 6 pounds of just alfalfa a day which would be well in excess of even winter lactation totals here. Just surprising but I know they look good and are happy about it!


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

All I know is that the goats cost less than my horses used to cost me in feed and the goats give back milk.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh my horses are way cheaper. They don't need feed, just pasture, and they're fat on that. They need more WORK.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Oh, ok, I see what you are saying. The reason may be that the girls are unfortunately confined with little access to anything else right now. They will soon have their back pasture of 3 acres that is overgrown with hickory, oak, blackberries, etc. I also have three yearlings that I have been trying to bring to good weight for breeding, they were a little thin when I got them and I really need them bred. If you remember my posts earlier this spring I had some bacterial issues with adult milkers, most of which I blame on nutritional stress from feeding poor quality alfalfa so I am feeding more than I normally would have. 


We only have total of 5 acres, I dream of having 20 - 80 one day for them to browse on. 

I have to agree that cost of kid sales does not cover the budget for even the girls' feed bill for the year. I am working to get year round milk sales and we are getting into soap. 

I could justify covering 100% of the cost for one family milker and maybe a wether companion, no way can I drain the family budget feeding 17 head herd unless they pay for themselves.

Jana


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Jana, selling milk is great, but you won't believe how much your soap will take off if you market it. Value added products (where you make something out of the initial product) is the biggest bang for your buck. Milk is good, cheese is better....soap is priceless  V


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## jdranch (Jan 31, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Jana, selling milk is great, but you won't believe how much your soap will take off if you market it. Value added products (where you make something out of the initial product) is the biggest bang for your buck. Milk is good, cheese is better....soap is priceless  V


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<<Milk is good, cheese is better....soap is priceless. >>

I guess I can always soap with the milk , huh? I am very blessed that my hubby is so enthusiastic about soap, he mixed laundry soap the other day and I just helped him scent it some, but he is all about it, willing to do the work, etc. We are jumping on the soap wagon, I kept putting it off until the house remodel was done but now that the floors are in and my front is nice and neat (so we can actually entertain in our living/dining and kitchen area), I am ready. We have almost everything we need, ended up ordering what we didn't have from Wholesale Supply. Hubby has his handy dandy notebook with stuff he prints out, recipes, suppliers, scent reviews, etc.

Thanks for the final nudge  I'll let you know next week how the batch turns out.

Jana


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Dairy goats are supposed to BROWSE??? Won't somebody PLEASE come and tell my girls that? My SO is constantly amazed at the grain and alfalfa pellets we go through (that I pay for and he doesn't complain about, is just amazed about)...when we have tons of brush and browse out there for the eating. I don't want skinny goats! But, I never dreamed having goats could be so expensive. I'm doing numbers all the time, trying to figure out how to bring the cost down, but keep the milk coming and weights up. Buying in bulk, including alfalfa hay is something I need to do but cannot do....still trying to catch up from winter business being slow, and old new house that needs everything in the world done to it, etc. Plus no storage. So, off to the feed store I go...seems like every other day...$50 here, $70 there...Oh me oh my....

I'm planning our winter pasture of rye and oats...and hoping they will actually eat it...I'm not sure they will since they don't know how to graze...maybe they could learn. They've always had pasture...they just never have known they could get food from it. 

I want garden goats!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Can you lock them out of the barn? When I milk I have an in door and a out door. First I close the door in the barn so the does going through the out door don't just go line back up at the in door  Once everyone is milked, they are trapped outside their barn...your choice is to stand with 9 other does in a 10x10 area with a grass hay feeder (by the out door) or go out in your pasture/woods. They opt for the out of doors  Vicki


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Ashley said:


> Oh my horses are way cheaper. They don't need feed, just pasture, and they're fat on that. They need more WORK.


LOL Same here. My horses are soooooo much cheaper! And that's even with them on hay and grain! I always thought goats would be cheaper but boy was I wrong when I actually totaled up everything.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

out door don't just go line back up at the in door 

Grrrr, I sooo need a different barn. I'd like for them to come in one way and leave another, hmmm, maybe I can work it out somehow. Right now I am trying to use what I can, can't say it's a dream milk room but it's out of the weather (unlike last year milking in the middle of the goat pen with everyone wanting to be first) and I have a decent stall for them to kid in and for me to stay comfortable assisting them, again a big improvement over the small quarters last year. One of these days I'll have your barn , Vicki, if I still have goats and a different property  Right now the barn would be bigger than the house, hmmmm, kinda Amish like. 

I have been able to work things out using my English shepherd, she is great at sorting out does who go back in the barn and ones coming in to be milked and prevents any butting into the milk room before it's their turn. At least this year, I can milk with no assistant (except the dog), last year I needed two, lol, bringing does in an out from a completely different pasture, rain or no rain. I guess we have improved even if just little. I do have part of the barn that is just for me, no goats ! YAY ! Far from perfect by all means but getting there. Maybe I'll just have two milkers for my soap and family milk and forget the dairying thing, not sure.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Anita, have you tried cutting the browse for them and getting them a taste for it? Try just going out and pulling a limb down, mine go nuts over it. Or just walk out there and stand around to get them out there. 

I let mine out in the morning and they are on a mission. They know all the places they are hitting for the day and have a look of determination lol.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

One of these days I'll have your barn , Vicki,
........

It would be barn number 4 then. I have 3 other people who have, down to taking measurements reproduced my barn at their places  Being timber framed it's cheap to put up, well cheap as far as building material amounts  And has a super good flow, I was lucky that I was in another barn for several years before I could afford to build this one (export money). I have only seen two of the reproducitions in real person, it's pretty cool, like a barn makeover...all new  But as you go you find what works well for you. V


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

The first part is finding out what is NOT working for me. LOL I did that part. Unfortunately I realize more and more that this place has very limited potential for goats , as much as we like everything else about it. My well and house is on a bottom of a hill and most of the acreage is above the well  

This not being the place we plan on retiring in, I am careful not to change the landscape too much and make it too ag looking. It's a nice little house in the country with lots of trees, one of these days I'll take pictures and see if you guys see any room for improving my work flow. 

Jana


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The Lewis's of Londuff acres fame...saanens in Utah and LaMancha's in Texas, had their goats in a barn with very small areas for exercise (smaller than my kid pen) and they raised some fabulous showy milky goats! I love that old saying about growing or thriving where you are planted...or something like that. Vicki


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

The goats are not being fed in the barn right now...except for at milking time. It's amazing to me to see all the grass, weeds, etc. growing up in their pasture and they stand as close as they can get to the house and holler. There may be hope for them though. We ran out of available kid pen space and needed to separate buck and doe kids. The grown up boy pasture is 5 strands of electric, which did not work for the buck kids, so I put them in with the milkers. I also weaned them the same day. Now, they screamed their heads off for about 2 days, but they are so into eating that browse now! And, the big girls are following suit! I'm counting up the money I'm saving! I'm also trying a lower priced grain mix..it will equal out to about $7 for 50 pounds instead of $11. Still doing the alfalfa pellets, but got a lead on some nice local alfalfa hay. I've decided I do not care so much about tons of milk production right now, especially since weaning 4 buck kids...the does are nearly 6 months old and I'm giving them just the extra milk...I'm starting to be able to breath again....I want money to start our barn!!!


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

We have managed to do it for about 100 dollars per goat per year, and, only because, we have not had a vet visit for them. (The vet won't come out here anyway, and so we just use what we have learned here on the forum, and thankfully, have not really needed a vet visit.) 
My goal, is to break even on them,, We'll see,,, as we had 39 live, sellable REALLY nice meat kids this year, out of just 17 does.....the most kids we have ever had, by far. So far, we are a little ahead for the year. We are supposed to be making hay at the moment, but the borrowed equipment broke, before we even borrowed it... ACK! (Last year, because of equipment probs, we got NO hay, and had to buy it all, which put us deeply in the hole.. then.. throw in the (bought) hay problems...and grain.. and all of the meds to get the girls to almost term and have viable kids....and the meds for moms, to get them going well again....etc...) 
Yet, we did not end up too deeply in the hole, thanks to decent kid prices, and our goat milk...as we raised calves on it.... AND.. if we add in a cost for fertilizer for our garden.....from the manure....
BUT....
IF... in the next few years, we do not at least break even on them, we will be forced to cull even harder, and just keep a few for milk for raising calves, and maybe a few for pets. 
In this day and age, we just cannot continue spending money on them, and not making some in return. Period. We'll see how it goes... as we know that we have a very good "product." and have been told this from many buyers... Now... if we can just get the prices we should... we'll be all set! (Stop importing goat meat from Australia, and buy it locally!! It is cheaper, AND FRESHER!)


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<<thriving where you are planted>>

I think it's Bloom Where You're planted. I'd still be single on the other side of the Atlantic teaching kiddos English and who knows what else  But I know what you mean, I am very much a believer in using what you have first before looking where the lawn is greener.

Jana


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Most of the numbers being quoted seem reasonable and I think I can confidently say that it costs me about $400 per goat per year. That includes alfalfa hay free choice, grain on the milking stand and other supplies (dewormer, vaccines, needles, nipples for kidding) but virtually no vet bills as we can do almost all things ourselves. A need for a C-Section or something like that would definitely send the average way up but we have been lucky.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> One of these days I'll have your barn , Vicki,


Why don't you take mine Jana and I'll toss in the goats.....
and then I will go sit on a rocky cliff overlooking the crashing sea :biggrin


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ziggy, not having C sections is not lucky, it is excellent management! My vet certainly does not get rich off of me either. Vicki


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<<Why don't you take mine Jana and I'll toss in the goats>>

Now with that fancy rabbit barn I might just be game. Since you mentioned the rocky cliff, going back to Maine would be one way to tempt me to sell out of goats and enjoy what New England has to offer 

Now, I have seen Vicki's barn but I haven't seen yours. Maybe I'd like yours just as much. It just hit me at Vicki's that a barn for goats is not only the place they stay in out of the elements but basically a one stop management station, with the milk room, feed storage, feeders, etc.

Jana


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I like that: "a one stop management station" That is what I am trying for. 

After putting the costs on paper I realize the goats are costing more than the humans in this household. Healthcare and food combined. Hmm.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<<After putting the costs on paper I realize the goats are costing more than the humans in this household. Healthcare and food combined. Hmm. 
>>

I know. It would easily provide enough for a nice family vacation in Hawaii. Scary.


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## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

I would have to include brush clearing as a bonus of having goats.
I don't have to pay to have my pasture brush hogged!
I don't grow grass, the hills are too steep, but brush and trees grow well there.
Only goats can use that terrain, and keep it mowed and parklike.
I am about to enlarge the pasture since they are keeping it so well cleared.

I would also include the fresh air, and sunshine that I get by tending the goats and garden as a health plus that I can't put a price on. Even in winter, healthwise it is better for us to get outside a bit, than to hibernate with inside air all the time.

Manure and urine soaked bedding for my garden... saves me from buying chemicals, and is healthier for me. The hay is bad on my allergies, but, it is a trade off really.

I likely lose money on the goats, but, I save as much as I lose, so it trades off about even, and when I get the kids weaned and get more household milk, then is profit time!

Sure it would be cheaper to buy milk than have goats, and it would be cheaper to buy eggs than to feed my poultry. But, at what costs? My animals are not overly medicated, nor antibiotics fed to get big growth or yields. I know where my milk and eggs, and produce come from and what was used in or on it. Knowledge is power!

But, if you are planning on earning a living at goats, it will be tough going. I once raised rabbits for PelFreeze and the norm profit was a quarter per rabbit. And it takes alot of feed to raise that rabbit, and lots of trips to the rabbitry. So it had to be volume, and less than volume, you were donating your labor. My kids had pets that were not very cost effective to keep, but rabbits are cheaper than some pets to feed.

A goat is cheaper than a dog! So for pets there are trade offs.

But there is a zone between hobby and professional goat keeper that is a losing area.
You either need to go larger, and make volume, or stay hobbyist. I mean how much longer does it take to tend to 10 than it does to 5? Not double! But, if you are getting milk that you can not use, kids you cannot sell, then you are in "the zone" either get bigger and make volume or go smaller and have a quantity that you can use up the milk, and sell or eat the kids. But, if you are wasting your efforts in milk that has no value and kids with no value, then you are losing.
Just something to think about! Hobbyist or volume?


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

MaryAnn, very good stuff to consider.


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## Ozark Lady (Mar 21, 2010)

I know some local goat keepers.
One lady has lots of does and raises them to milk, and then purchases calves raises them and sells the calves. Her goats are rarely for sale. They are not her main business.
And she earns a living, barely.
Another lady, got into goats in a big way. Lots of registered ones, and had no real outlet. At a time she did sell alot of kids, but she had no outlet for milk, and no use for it.
It often was milked and poured out.
Gradually this herd has gone down. I went over there awhile back, and saw does walking on their knees, I asked about shots and meds and they can no longer afford that. So, that herd is going down, down, down.
They got too big, too fast and didn't maintain an outlet, didn't make sure of the sales before breeding. And their registered kids were being sold at auction right along with the grade goats. And without papers of course. But their goat business although more than double the size of the other, and more quality of goats, is a bust. The goats are now a burden just to tend to.
Don't let this happen to you.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> Grrrr, I sooo need a different barn. I'd like for them to come in one way and leave another, hmmm, maybe I can work it out somehow.


Here is our barn setup looking from the edge of the yard across a 1/2 acre containment meadow between house and barn that we use for groups we want to keep an eye on- about to kid- just weaned-bucks with young does in heat etc. Hoping to share ideas about things that have worked for us.
The barn is on the highest point on our property because animals congregating compact the soil and decreases drainage and then you have a mud hole. The large roll up door faces north and when it is hot we leave it up to facilitate air flow and reduce temp inside. It is tall enough to accommodate a large hay truck stacked very high to pull inside to unload. The peak of the barn is at 16 feet for hay stacking and air flow too. Our gardens and fruit are on this high part of the property as well for drainage.

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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

The interior of the barn is 40 x 80 and the goats do not live 'inside' the barn. They sleep and eat hay and lounge on rainy days under the overhang that extends another 20 feet off the east side of the barn proper. There is not a solid wall between this and the barn- just pipe fencing with no climb wire attached. This lets morning sun warm them up early and protects from hot afternoon sun and our prevailing source of storms- the SW in summer- NW in winter.
They can access different pastures exiting the opposite ends of the corrals which extend another 20 feet beyond the overhang. Exiting north they access the containment meadow and that opens into woods. Exiting south leads to open pasture with some pines and a pond and their dusting pile. These divisions of confinement have been invaluable for me for making it easy to separate bucks or does with new kids from older groups- yearlings from the rest etc. The blue kiddie pool is for the LGD's.

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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Here you can see the corrals attached to the barn that are half covered by the overhang and divided into 4 sections of 40x20 each. Inside under the overhang the 4 sections of pipe fence are once again divided into 10x20 interior stalls where I have my baby safe that kids can duck into to get grain without competition and also I can form hay feeding groups that don't bash one another. The very inmost wall of the corrals has 2 layers of cattle panel that serve as a huge long hay feeder. This inner corral wall is the edge of the barn and gates lead from there to hay and grain storage and milking area. We also house our woodworking tools and tractor and millions of other things we cannot find:>)
The west side has the rabbit barn attached and the south facing side which is solid metal will soon be home to our greenhouse as we have been collecting old windows and metal studs for that project
We were always rigging space for someone and once we got this built is was a dream to have it be so organized. The gals know what I expect of them and know where to go when. It has made goat life sooo much easier.
One thing we did not do was leave enough room inside the innermost stalls for the tractor to clean bedding out. It is just too tight in a 10x20 so that part IS handwork with a wheelbarrow but the rest of it is tractor work which helps aging backs a lot.

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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Very nice Buckrun. The overhangs are the part I still need to do on my 36 x 84 barn - seeing this validates my ideas.

One question - where do you milk?

I have a 12 x 24 milking parlor sectioned off in one corner of my barn - just wondering where you milk?


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Very nice, Lee. Thank you for sharing. LOL, so much for my 24x10 barn, ha !!

Jana


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

Not sure where my notebook is right now. I did all the math at the beginning of kidding season this year. All I remember off the top of my head is my milkers cost me $45/mo. That number is engraved on my mind. 

This has been the worst year for selling goats ever. Just not moving and with my mom having been here I got behind in advertising. 

Within the next two weeks I am listing some low producers on Craig's List and whoever does not sell will be butchered. Most of my herd is improving greatly in body and production and I need to be ruthless with those who are not. 

I need to start soaping more... I can't keep what I do make on the shelves... My spearmint eucalyptus batch sold before it dried. 

We are also working where we can to streamline & lower costs... dh & my boys just built a nice hay feeder for my first freshner yard because we found good access to great alfalfa hay and are seeing a nice jump in production over pellets.... so we want to increase hay even more and drop back further on pellets.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Don't feel bad Lynn, my brother in law was given groups of kids this year from me posting on here that he butchers goats. Locals just wanting the kids off the property, he filled two freezers. Three places he went and camped out and butcher in halves, one kid for him and one kid for the person, one dairy it took him two days there were that many. Two farms brought all the kids to him here (they don't eat goat meat), some very nice kids went through, more bucklings than doelings but alot of doelings. Killed me to see him butchering the doelings but I didn't want unregistered doelings being here I would have to blood test. At least one more farm he will be butchering their late spring kids, this time I am helping so I can have sausage for winter.

Oh and I knew some of my girls would know how much this was costing 

For those who don't get to visit  One stop management is something you get on the tour. IF you aren't comfortable in YOUR side of the barn, if all of the labor intensive goats....does kidding, does milking, kids on the lambar...aren't in the same area with water and lights and electicity...you will tire quickly of shelping from here to there, holding flashlights in your mouth and milking in the rain. I did that for about 6 years, I had a really cute barn but it was a really stupid barn, the ceilings were so low when I leased an older buck he could stand on my door to the stall and scratch his head on the center beam, every doorway you had to duck or knock yourself out especially with winter bedding inside. When it stormed I had a tarp flapping against me soaking me, so my does would stay dry, most wouldn't have even lasted 6 years. So when husbands look at my barn and say "this isn't dooable" I always tell the wife to stay small until sales come in so you can make it doobale since most won't and shouldn't go into debt for a new barn.

Lee, love your pipe fences, similar to Tims' buck barns. Vicki


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

All my males left in 24-48 hrs this year. A friend and neighbor took them, raised her on cows milk, and sold them.... so that certainly helped. She took them because she knew otherwise I'd be butchering at birth. 

The people who have inquired about goats seem to want gallon a day milkers for 1qt/day prices. 

I set a bottom ceiling for the low producers and if I can't get that price... they will be butchered. And I pulled one off milk string that has an udder I'll NOT sell... dried her up, moved her to the browse yard, and we'll be butchering her soon. I've just got too many nice milkers to mess with these low low girls. When they take the same feed, same care, same time... nope.


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

It is certainly a learning curve Vicki... you know what the hardest thing for me was? Admitting to dh I was not as emotionally involved as he seemed to assume I would be. I felt rather guilty. We have worked through that now.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

"The people who have inquired about goats seem to want gallon a day milkers for 1qt/day prices. "

I understand that one all too well.


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

> IF you aren't comfortable in YOUR side of the barn, if all of the labor intensive goats....does kidding, does milking, kids on the lambar...aren't in the same area with water and lights and electicity...you will tire quickly of shelping from here to there, holding flashlights in your mouth and milking in the rain.


Amen! We are still tweaking, but we come closer every year. The best thing we have done is move the milk shed to the front yard. May not be house beautiful but it WORKS.



> "The people who have inquired about goats seem to want gallon a day milkers for 1qt/day prices. "
> 
> I understand that one all too well.


Yeah gotta love the ones that want milk... so you say you have one milking about 7#/day for $350... well that is more than they have to spend.... they were thinking $100... maybe $150... so well... they are friends of a friend so you offer them a choice of 2 FF giving about 2.5#/day each... but who's dams milk higher... and you ask $150... "well but that is not enough milk"

"Have a nice day."


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> For those who don't get to visit  One stop management is something you get on the tour. IF you aren't comfortable in YOUR side of the barn, if all of the labor intensive goats....does kidding, does milking, kids on the lambar...aren't in the same area with water and lights and electicity...you will tire quickly of shelping from here to there, holding flashlights in your mouth and milking in the rain. I did that for about 6 years, I had a really cute barn but it was a really stupid barn, the ceilings were so low when I leased an older buck he could stand on my door to the stall and scratch his head on the center beam, every doorway you had to duck or knock yourself out especially with winter bedding inside. When it stormed I had a tarp flapping against me soaking me, so my does would stay dry, most wouldn't have even lasted 6 years. So when husbands look at my barn and say "this isn't dooable" I always tell the wife to stay small until sales come in so you can make it doobale since most won't and shouldn't go into debt for a new barn.
> 
> Lee, love your pipe fences, similar to Tims' buck barns. Vicki


I giggled out loud at this. This sounds a lot like me. I've improved some things, but some things I'm not sure how to fix in my situation. I need a _real_ hay barn, I need better drainage, I need a kidding pen that's better enclosed from the rain and has better lighting. I need a feeder setup that I can fill from inside the barn instead of getting goat mugged when I try to feed a few alfalfa pellets. One thing at a time I guess. Hopefully we'll sell some goats and that will give me some funds. I really want a feeder that on my side where the goats stick their heads through to eat, would be awesome because I could feed hay in it too, just pitchfork it from the round bale to the feeder. The hay barn is the one that is really out of reach.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Hey Zig- 
We milk inside the big barn next to the lovely aromatic haystack. The does know to race in one gate -hop up and do their duty and then dash off to the baby safe to pick up their kids for the day and exit to graze. We built a milk room and I hated it and so did the goats so we set up a painted plywood floor and a wall with high counter and shelving with ceramic tile surfaces that houses tools and supplies and my beloved belly pail milker. My stanchion is the original 1976 Rodale Press model my husband built for me plus about 20 coats of paint over time- it is yellow and green this year. I can see my zinnia patch from my milk stool and watch the nuthatches feed babies in the silly place they decided to nest and I can yell at the bluejays to get out of the fig tree. I use a bucket wand for hot water but filter milk at the house. When we milked 20 or so I had a great cart with big wheels to carry the totes down the hill but we no longer sell milk and so I just carry a couple of 2 gallons SS buckets back to the house by hand.

Jana - remember you will grow no matter how you set your mind not to_ if _you are in it to make money. If you want to make some income it will take more than a few goats. A few can pay for themselves but you have to manage properly to get even a larger number to profit. All the things we love about working outside with livestock does not pay the feed bill. You can count them as benefits but only if you have the actual green stuff coming in to support them without taking away from some other part of your economy.

You will love them even more when they offset all your costs and leave money in the pot for improvements. I would also like to say- cull for temperament. In the past I was trying to build udder quality and capacity and kept does out of does with horrid attitudes because they had improved structure. Honestly I have seen enough kids born taken thru to freshening to know without one doubt that they are what they are when they are born. If they run from you at 3 days old they will run from you forever. At least they will run from you often enough to make it a pain to have them in the milk string. Get rid of any spooks. We have eaten some very high priced famous named bucks because I refuse to let them produce does that are berserkers and not dependable on a daily basis. Since we tried to improve on a shoestring while raising children etc. we put our money into bucks and that is the slow way to improve but always think beyond looks and production records to how much trouble the animal itself turns out to be. 
I know you can make a go of it- blooming or not


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

LOL, Lee, I am all for growing - let me tell you that my 10x24 is HUGE compared to the leaky shed I had before. And DRY !
I almost had a meltdown last year over how many projects there are still to do (we did buy a fixer upper house with LOTS of potential and lovely piece of land) and I finally sat myself down and wrote on paper how 3 years ago we had a leaky roof and were catching water in buckets every time it rained, how 2 years go we had 2 baths, neither one in usable condition, how even a year ago I had old stained smelly carpet where I now have gorgeous laminate floors and the list goes on. It made a huge difference to look at how much we have accomplished already instead of just looking at the never ending "to do" list. The house is coming out very nicely and we get comments on all the improvements. 

It was the same with the ouside, the outbuildings were from an old ostrich and emu farm built 30 some years ago, falling apart, there was not a single pen that was fully fenced, or a shed that did not leak. My list from 3 years ago is a pretty sorry list compared to what we have now and how far we have already come. That's not to brag by any means, plenty to learn, plenty to improve. But that is my goal this year - both with my farm and with my stock, to make improvements. No need to get perfect right away but I want chores to get easier from year to year because we are able to fence in more areas, build better barns, swap wooden milk stands for metal ones ..... while not trying to get ahead of ourselves and grow at a pace the budget allows. 

I could not agree more with culling for temperament. I will focus on this more closely now that you brought it up. Thankfully everyone is bottle raised by small children here so goats are not skiddish or running away but I have purchased some that are already on the butcher block come freshening and will be sold, unless they have a major change of heart. Have a doe with excellent bloodline but she is hysterical over having her kids taken away or weaning, it's very annoying and in the end not worth the hassle. 

Lee, are you saying that your problem does were giving you daughters with similar temperament ???

Thanks again for all the input, you guys have no idea how helpful this is 

Jana
dreaming up her barn addition in OK


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

That sounds like bragging rights are well deserved. Congratulations on all your progress and hurry up before you get old ! I was just wondering how we got so old and still have such a long list. What a great idea to sit down and actually note your progress. I am a bad one to forget how far we have come and just push on! We grew without a plan for growing so obviously you will do better with less flailing around.

I got about 50 percent temperament problems from problem does. Go figure....The sweet ones were sweet always and the monsters were sweet when it suited them. They are all angels now!


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Lee, thank you. The biggest achievement I forgot to mention is that we live debt free except the mortgage, got rid of all our payments and credit card debt 6 years ago and life has been great. I guess the to do list never ends since as we get older we get smarter and think up more stuff to do 

Vicki, thanks for a good laugh, some of the things you mentioned made my list of things I'll never have to do again, like get wet while milking, no tarps, etc. I can't stress enough what an eye opener a visit to Vicki's was for me. Before my plan was a storage room to store feed, milk room to milk, barn for the girls to stay warm and dry .... all, of course, separate buildings and far apart from each other .... what was I thinking ????? It took hubby helping while I was sick to tell me how inefficient the set up was and why don't we have all the things that need doing in the day in one place? Then Vicki's barn was a great visual to see how it can be done and I think there is a way to get it done with space smaller than 40x40 to begin with and work towards the expansion. The goal is to have the one stop management station at the end of the summer. 

Hope this thread has been helpful to others as much as it has been to me 

Jana


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

you dont want OUR numbers! We count EVERYTHING, but we also have more requirements that someone with a home milker wont have.

when we crunched the $ before the dairy the conclusion we drew was that it was more $ than store milk, as cheap as store milk has gotten lately BUT knowing where your milk came from and the enjoyment of the goats made up for the price difference.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep no way will you succeed overtime if you don't start with a passion for the goats first. I don't know one person who started as a business who stayed in business very long. Nobody is going to be able to keep it up, especially when the kids leave home and you have to pay for labor or do it all yourself. Vicki


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Not so for us because when the kids leave home we won't need to make as much so can either pay for labor or scale back to a level do-able for those remaining at home. These kind of adjustments are expected for any family business, right?

But at anyrate we are meeting with a shotgun any young man who isnt interested in committing to the dairy!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

But a small business supporting a large family is one thing....can it take on extended families who need more and more salary when they themselves start to have children? We didn't build that contingency into our place when we thought it out. We have room for everyone (Joni and Jace both have bedrooms added onto their house now (my old soap/guest house) Jake is nearing completion on his house behind ours, sister is in the duplex now with her husband. Her son, his girl friend and the new baby are in the other half. Stephy will move here later...but jobs on the farm, no it's not happening. Jake works for his Dad and I can part time the girls when I need something done, but paying labor to a gal to milk for me in the morning, is not the same thing as paying a salary to someone as their soul paycheck. You can't absorb salary like you can absorb labor. Just the reality here...I will by next year have a full time employee, but they will split their time between milking and the soap house, then it becomes how big do you really want to get? How many goats can you really milk? Just stuff to think about from somebody down the road further  Vicki


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

When those dc marry and extend the family then they are invited to come up with their own branch of the business to focus on if they want to remain in the business. Then they are adding a new *something* (product line, side business, etc) that will expand the business income. We do not assume, however, that those branches of the family will want to stay in the dairy. Just as (if not more) likely is that they will have their own lines of work that they want to focus on. If the chosen husbands of the girls chose...advertising, banking, construction, hospitality industry, medicine, law or indian chief then I assume that that will be paying their family bills, not the dairy and the dairy will need to generate less income due to the numbers being reduced. If they decide to stay with the dairy then we are open to any and all additional work (which will increase the income generated) or additional directions for the dairy to branch off in (also increasing the income generated). 

It's a theory, anyway  And it seemed to work for one family we have met recently. Traditional dairying (cow) Sons came of age and wanted to stay--but with a new idea--grass fed dairy. Parents were open to the next generation branching out with new ideas, so they divided the dairy and gave it a whirl, with great success. Daughter married a young man who came into the family dairy--but with a new idea--cheese. Again, parents (and brothers in the grass fed side) were open and they built a new cheese facility--and now make award winning cheeses. And the dairy is now supporting not just the original mom, dad and three dc but mom, dad, and three families in the next generation. 

We are holding the business as a trust--if they want to continue, great, we'll do what we can to grow to support that. If they arent interested, we are cool with downsizing as well. 

But remember, I know that paying someone to milk isnt a full-sized paycheck--but living on the farm isnt a full-sized mortgage, either!


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## old dominion (Oct 25, 2007)

LeeAnne, 

I would love to see your numbers or at least the categories you use. I counted everything also like depreciation on the barn, cost of raising kids, and bucks. No does wouldn't need the bucks, right! I saw the numbers and my eye started twitching. Maybe it is time to go back to making soap!

Jolene


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

For feed and minerals only, I came up with $39/milker/month. Bucks are much less expensive, with measured amounts of alf pellets and more browse. Around $15/month. I hate to admit it but it's the first time I ever really crunched the numbers and I have had goats since 2005. Usually expenses get lumped in with the family budget. This has been such a helpful topic to discuss.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

we also used gas to go buy feed and meds and bottles, replacement cost of equipment, Electricity, water. Wear and tear on appliances such as washing machine for dairy towels, etc. Trailer if you wouldnt have one anyway, or even if you would because it will see heavier use. 

for us with the dairy there is a lot more added...cell phones for business communications, website fees, toner for the computer, labels, blah blah blah enough to make your head spin!


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