# facial malformations



## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

The kind of thing you just hate to post. This has been a rough yr here kidding wise. This is a new one on me... until now I have been very blessed with my kiddings... sure I had a couple mal-presentations that caused me some stress, but nothing major. And no kids lost at birth except the last 2 last yr and I think mom was just bred too young maybe...

This yr has been very very different. The kinda year you hesitate to post about.

Let's see if I can get all the facts down

#1 Ginger - 
2006 kidded a single buck no problem
2007 cloudburst
2008 kidded #1 unattended... buckling dead when I got there, hair, but no teeth, went in to check and found *bones*

#2 Cinnamon -
2006 twin bucks no trouble
2007 twin does no trouble
2008 triplet does... mild malpresentations... all fine

#3 Gypsy -
2005 twin does mild malpresentation
2006 2 does/1 buck mild malpresentation
2007 twin bucks missed the birth
2008 twin does... 1 died during birth due to my handling... was not proactive when I should have been...

#4 Butterscotch -
2007 buck/doe no problems
2008 my first train wreck... 2 heads & 2 legs... called Vickie, first out was a live doe with a severe facial deformity, next out was a live healthy normal buck... I put the doe down. Basically she had NO upper jaw. Her nose was JUST below her eyes, lower jaw & tongue present. I did not think at the time to take a picture. This was the first kid I had to put down and I was a bit shaken up.

#5 Dolce - 
2007 buck/doe no problems
2008 triple bucks... #1 fine & healthy, #2 head back, dead at birth, and I am still unsure on this one.. at first I declared female... then my son said boy... and thought it had several abnormalities... on looking most of what he said was not the case... just him looking several hours after birth (eyes sunken, etc)... but on looking I saw now the scrotal sack, but no penis... I am though now second guessing myself... I should have taken him where I had better light.... so possibly no penis... possibly just dead... #3 fine & healthy oh this is a Mini Mancha and baby #1 was 7lbs... #2 was 3.5... #3 was 4lbs

#6 Aria - 
2007 buck/doe no problems
2008 buck/doe no problems

#7 Coco - 
2007 buck/doe no problems
2008 twin bucks..... #1 died about 15min after birth... had the same basic facial deformity as Butterscotch's... *just not nearly as severe*. #2 live, healthy, normal
Pictures below

#8 Vicki -
2005 buck/doe no problems, unattended
2006 stayed open
2007 buck/doe no problems
2008 buck/doe no problems, unattended



















Has anyone else had malformations like this?
Did you ever discover the cause?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Did you use the same buck that you used previous years or the same buck on all the ones deformed?? 
Also here is a study and include eating of local weed causing malformations
http://jvdi.org/cgi/reprint/5/3/458.pdf


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I really do NOT think it is the buck... I used him extensively both yrs and have only had these 2. It is the first time I used him on these particular does. 

Vickie suggested an environmental toxin... whether plant or chemical...

Also though I did not use the buck on Coco last yr I used him on her twin, he has been used on her mom, and on several half sisters...


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

The buck in question btw is my favorite and throws gorgeous kids...


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

just added a pdf file above and yes toxins they eat can cause it.


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

thanks... printing to read


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## Good Goats (Oct 26, 2007)

Wow, I am sorry Lynn.

Suriyah


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## Beverrlly (Nov 12, 2007)

Wow...what a year so far! :/ Here's hoping it gets better for you. Please keep us updated as to what you find out--I would love to know if you find a cause. So sorry this happened.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Seems to me that I recall hearing that when there is a drought that the alkaloids, etc that are normally benign in a plant can concentrate and become toxic. We didnt have a drought last yr, but the yr before...I dont know how long the toxic conditions last, but if the plants grew under that condition in 2006 then the does ate that browse in 2007 during breeding/development??? Seems like a grasp to me, though, seems like it would be too long of a gap between the drought in '06 and deformities in '08.


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## Meshale (Oct 26, 2007)

I have heard of some wormers given at the wrong time..can cause malformations also...can't think of what it was though....


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Wow, Lynn -- I am sorry about your kid troubles.
Those photos are fascinating. The second one looks like a chimpanzee profile. So unusual.
I thank you for taking those and sharing. I'm sure it was not easy to do.
I agree it sounds like toxins - let us know if you develop any theories about what they may have eaten or otherwise been exposed to.


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

they were wormed prebreeding early Aug... put in with bucks Aug 5th with cydectin and wormed with ivermectin + in Dec

I can't think of any browse they were exposed to during breeding... since both these girls like most of mine were bred to Anson over the summer... they were in my big back yard... 

We gave up using their browse yard... it is full of that one fuzzy weed they will not touch and they were not browsing..

I can't recall if they spent time in our old garden or not... just not sure...

Hmm browsing is not something I keep records on...


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2008)

Sorry.........IMO I think that this was more than likely the result of poor eggs or weak sperm,,,,,or a combination of both.........Deficiencies ,feed or other environmental conditions may have cause this to happen, if so, those conditions may have only existed for a short period of time to have caused these defects. This type development was taking place throughout most, if not all of this pregnancy.
If there is a bright side to this....it is that you may never have this happen again.

Again, Sorry
Whim


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

How does that work Whim with others in the same group being fine and the twin of each being healthy?

Including 1 in the group having healthy triplets?

Gypsy
Vickie
Cinnamon
Butterscotch
Coco
Ginger

were all in the same yards, same feed, etc, and bred to the same buck....


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2008)

If I could answer that question, I could put UCP and the March of Dimes out of business. All I'm thinking here, is that this big a problem started very early in conception, if not at the moment of......you know what I mean.


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

gotcha... thank you...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's called a monkey face and yes it is caused by a toxin. I still can not find the original site that showed the deformities and the reasons for them. Guess I have to go over to my least favorite site and dig. Vicki

http://www.cybergoat.com/cyclopia/cyclopia.htm This shows both Monkey face and cyclops together from helliatrop...but I know on the other site it is alkaloid disease.


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

thank you vickie! Off to check out the link...


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I have to agree with Blue Heron that this is just fascinating! I am sorry about this happening to you, but there is something in me that has always liked this kind of stuff. I was a weird little kid BTW.

Why don't you email the pics to Texas A&M. They have a terrific collection of freaks at the vet school and I am sure somebody there would know something. If nothing else, I am sure they would find the pics fascinating as well.

BTW...the freaks I refered to at the vet school were the specimens, not the students.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Found this...

http://www.cybergoat.com/cyclopia/cyclopia.htm <----monkey face


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

How would I go about emailing them to Texas A&M? 

Printed the article Vickie & Diane.... going to have my boys do a search for that plant...


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

Beat me to it! If I hadn't had to cook dinner. 

The only problem with it being this plant is that all the sites I looked at, it doesn't grow in Texas.....


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

right... I saw that... but... for it to grow as far as NM and cover that much area... makes me think *possible*... worth looking for...


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"This type development was taking place throughout most, if not all of this pregnancy."

Actually that is just not correct. It is well documented that medications and viruses can have very specific impact at certain weeks of pregnancy, it does not have to take place the entire pregnancy.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Exactly right. Something toxic was onboard at the exact time the cells were dividing and forming the face and skull. Also affected are any other parts of the fetus that are being developed at the same time, though it may not be obvious.

When I worked labor and delivery, we would always count the number of vessels in the umbilical cord of the newborn baby immediately after birth. If there were not 3, then there would be other anomolies with the infant, I think in the heart as the heart and umbilical vessels developed at the same time during gestation. Correct me if I am wrong on the details here, it's been awhile, but that is the gist.

Oh, and that link I put up on my previous post suggested that eating that weed on day 14 of gestation created the cyclopia.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

BUT do those states share the same kind of climate as the East Texas piney woods?


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

I don't know but something about where it grows made me think of y'all it sounded like it might grow in your area.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

so are LeeAnne and katie both logged in and talking to each other from different rooms???


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

http://books.google.com/books?id=3U...ts=z06FypOofA&sig=CoIo71SmX-jIaD0iHBRnAwU7YLA


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

Yes, Mom in the Living room on the laptop and me in my bedroom/library/office/school/guest room on the "Main computer".


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Astronut-1 said:


> Yes, Mom in the Living room on the laptop and me in my bedroom/library/office/school/guest room on the "Main computer".


I am quite the detective.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Administrator/Local%20Settings/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/Content.IE5/9S5RME3P/256,1,Birth Defects and Abortions Induced by Poisonous Plants

Above a power point file by Mary Smith


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

"This type development was taking place throughout most, if not all of this pregnancy." Whim

Actually that is just not correct. L.A.

""that eating that weed on day 14 of gestation created the cyclopia.""" D.R.

I'm not really sure what your disagreement with my statement is.....if this starts on or about day 14, doesn't my statement make at least a little sense, exspecially since there are 136 days left in the pregnancy. :?

Whim


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Let's not get bogged down with semantics....where does your hay come from? And if one type of plant can contain high amounts of alcholoids to cause this in early pregnancy what is in high numbers in our area or in the pasture you purchased your hay from when your does were first bred? Would normal alchalane soil during drought produce this in normally healthy plants like how normally healthy fescue or sudan/redcane/ etc...becomes posionous after periods of heat or cold stress? Cherry tree leaves when wilted? Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

just to let you know that weed your talking abt above is listed in a&m list of toxic plants also the first pdf listed loco weed as a cause and there are many other plants that when eaten in first part of gestation can cause deformities even plants we plant as flowers


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

No hay at that time... almost none this yr period... 

No cherry trees...

Need to figure what tree is in the yard they were in when bred besides pine... and what branches were thrown to them... though it was nothing *new*...

I keep trying to recall WHEN they were in the browse yard... we had used it in 2006 and they ate lots in there.... but it was almost taken over by a tall fuzzy weed they did not want... a local goat breeder had called it goat weed, but also noted goats do not eat it... but the picture I pull up on goat weed is not this plant... the pic was more green.... this weed is a grey green and *fuzzy*...

but wondering if there was SOMETHING in there... also trying to recall if and when they spent time in the garden... we did not have one this yr...


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

their regular yard is basically dry lot...

yard they were bred in has 2 well stripped pines, 1 shade type tree, grass... and then whatever is growing on the fence shared with the browse yard... but like I said the contents of the browse yard WAS very different this yr than previous yrs... 

So really pondering this... thankfully my doelings due in April were NEVER in the browse yard... they are though currently in the yard these girls were bred in... it is my usual older doeling yard


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't think it would be the "goat weeds" you are talking about as we have those here and I have had certain individual goats in the past develop a taste or them with no ill effects. They are the grayish green leathery knee high weeds that take over certain times of the year here. Oddly, even though they are called goat weeds, goats generally don't eat them. Texas had such a wet spring and summer that there were all sorts of exaggerated growth of plants. Or perhaps they were wormed just at the very wrong time with a wormer from a bad lot. Or perhaps a bag of feed was tainted with rat poison at the feedstore, or bug spray.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree with Vicki, and that was what I was suggesting earlier.....You would need to go back to around breeding season/ first part of pregnancy to find where the problem started.
Lynn , The problem that I see here is that now you gonna be scratching your head from now to next breeding season trying to figure out where this toxin came from. If it was feed, then I'm not sure what you would do.....but if it was browse, you might be able to identify it next summer, as it will probably grow again. You've almost got me wondering if some of the other troubles that your having is in someway linked to this same toxin...it just manifested itself in this kid to where it was most visable.

This thing looks a lot like a hosta....but I can't find where hosta's are poisonous , or even related to this thing........
Whim


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Wimm my disagreement comes in that your earlier comment seemed to indicate that an exposure limited to certain parts of a pregnancy couldnt cause a problem like this but would need exposure for the entire pregnanncy when problems like this generally are NOT due to a pregnancy-long exposure but exposure that took place at the time of pregnancy during which craniofacial development was occuring. In the case of humans, if a mother has chickenpox early in the pregnancy it can cause malformations. It does not take exposure to chickenpox the entire pregnancy to cause the malformations. More specifically, there are medications that have been associated with birth defects if taken between weeks 4 and 8 but are generally considered to not pose a risk after that period. Yes, the damage is done at that point and the baby/kid/lamb will suffer the effects for the rest of the pregnancy but it doesnt take continued exposure to cause it.


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

"Western False Hellebore"

I thought Hellebore was Hosta?? Do you grown any in your yard that they could have grabbed during an escape or something? Sorry no help, probably...

I hope you can figure it out so you can stop worrying! how frustrating!!


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I agree with LeeAnne. For instance, fetal alcohol syndrome. Alcohol in early pregnancy causes the syndrome whereas alcohol in later pregnancy can actually be beneficial and is sometimes used medicinally to stop early premature labor. My doc put me on wine and bedrest at home to stop pre-term labor. He said I could do that or go in the hospital and have an alcohol IV drip. I stayed home


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

(Diane they now believe that alcohol at any point in pregnancy can cause problems in genetically susceptible individuals)


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

sorry, that was LeeAnne, not Katie


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, this was the 70s and early 80s after all :crazy


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Can I agree with both of you When facial development is happening at day 14 you would have no long bone for her to be finding bones at delivery. So I think what has happened is long term. certaily through the first trimester...alot like a herd near me who used a herbal wormer, then would not do necropsy to help me prove this, even with me paying she just didn't want to be involved.

And we are now talking like Lynne has left the room  The good thing Lynne is that things like this are storms, they rarely continue throughout a kidding season. And at least it is not effecting all your lovely kids. Vicki


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

reading and storing and chewing on it all!!

Thank you folks!


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Feral Nature said:


> I agree with LeeAnne. For instance, fetal alcohol syndrome. Alcohol in early pregnancy causes the syndrome whereas alcohol in later pregnancy can actually be beneficial and is sometimes used medicinally to stop early premature labor. My doc put me on wine and bedrest at home to stop pre-term labor. He said I could do that or go in the hospital and have an alcohol IV drip. I stayed home


BTW I am still following doctors orders :woohoo


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

:biggrin You lucky rascal....my doctor wouldn't buy that reason with me. Said I was way too skinny to be pregnant. Got to find me another doc now.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

well, I'm 83


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