# For the bolus challenged



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

For those of you who can't get a bolus down a goat to save your life, such as myself, maybe this will help you. The last two times I've bolused I've ended up with sticky pills in the flour, copper rods stuck to me, and when I finally do get them down, the goats chew them, every stinking time!! Last time I tried to be real agressive, get it way in the back of the mouth, one of them bled and it still managed to chew it. I can get pills down dogs, cats etc, but goats I just can't manage for some reason.

So anyway. I mixed the measured amount of copper rods yesterday in honey, in a little bowl. I got a little tongue depresser and just scooped some of the mixture and put it in the goats mouth, since it's just honey, they don't chew it! They just licked it down. SOOO much easier for me, and the goats didn't hate me afterwards, they wanted more. I got a little honey on my foot, but other than that, no mess! 

Just do a little at a time, don't try to ball it all up on the end of the tongue depressor, it may ooze off before you get it in their mouth.

I suppose you could use a syringe to put it in their mouth if the end of it is big enough to accomodate the copper rods. 

I can't think of any reason this wouldn't be just as good as giving them a pill?


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

maybe because of which stomach it goes into. Do you use a bolus pusher to admin the boluses?? I don't have a problem you put the pusher with pill in it in the back of their throat/push and walla it is down.


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Yep. That study has already been done and I'm including it below on the different methods tried and the results.
HOW THE COPPER BOLUSES WORK 
http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html


> The gelatin capsules contain thousands of minute, blunt copper oxide rods. When give orally, the gelatin capsule dissolves in the rumen, releasing the copper oxide rods, which then pass into the abomasum where they lodge. There they release copper for the animal's immediate requirements and reserves. The rods dissolve completely over a period of time.


Kaye


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

So are you saying it's not as good? 

Gelatin capsules dissolve in about one minute, could that minute make any difference? I would think it would go to the same place, the bolus goes in the back of the mouth and the goat swallows it.


----------



## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Where do you get the copper for bolusing? I've seen some for cows, is it the same product for goats? 
Thanks,
Anita


----------



## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"When give orally, the gelatin capsule dissolves in the rumen, releasing the copper oxide rods"

so why wouldnt the honey likewise dissolve in the rumen?


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Read the article. It states plainly that given without the gel cap, it doesn't get into the right stomachs.

You're going to do as you please anyway...so debating with me is pointless. Debate with Joyce who did the studies. I'm just directing you to a site where the studies, with research info., is printed. 

Anita, the copper boluses we use are cow boluses. Jeffer's. Actually calf-12.5g and we split them, putting the correct amount into each gel cap and administer them using a boluse gun. If you get them far enough into the back of the mouth, they're swallowed. Not had any problems here...and mine get bolused 4 times a year.
Kaye


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Goats don't swallow liquids into their rumen, and that is where you want these pills to go first, we also don't want them chewed.

The testing was done on over 2000 goats by Joyce and her club...I kind of think that would be instructions I would want to go by. Vicki


----------



## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

Here is my question not to hijack this thread, but how often can or should we bolus? I know every area is different, but I have been bolusing every six months and I got behind this year it went maybe 9 months between not good, loss of tail hair and rough coats, funky feet issues, so How often do I need to do it to get them back in condition?
Thanks
Autumn


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If you were having success with every 6 months, than get back on schedule and see if that will work for you. It shouldn't  Read on saanendoah.com about how long the bolus actually is in the chambers of the stomachs, think it's about 4 months. You can have scarry high copper readings when you first bolus for about the first month, but it quickly goes down to nothing at about 4 months. Vicki


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Sannendoah site has directions and everything on making your boluses per goat weight.


----------



## Leo (Mar 10, 2008)

Petsmart sells a cheap pill/bolus gun(I think it was $1-$2) that fits the smaller pills, works great for me, and my fingers don't get pinched by their back molars.
Megan


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

> You're going to do as you please anyway...so debating with me is pointless.


Please don't assume what I'm thinking, I've not even been difficult or anything (yet :biggrin- just kidding!)

I'm not asking to be difficult, I'm asking because I want to understand. No point in giving the bolus if I'm not doing any good..

Vicki, I understand when a goat drinks water, it doesn't go to the rumen, this is what you are talking about, right? But you yourself have said they have to stretch their neck out kinda to make that happen, when you see a goat drink, you can see how they do this. When they eat the honey, it's not done in that way, they eat it the same as if they were eating food, no different than when I've given boluses.

How is it different to stick a wad of honey on the back of the tongue, or a capsule.

Maybe I should take some pictures, and take some here in a month (would that be long enough) to see if this works?

and yes I used a bolus gun... I think part of my problem is I can't feel what I am doing, like when I give a pill to something else (that isn't goinng to slice my fingers like a goat) and can use my finger and know where I'm at and get it down.


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

you can use a piece of pvc pipe in the back of the mouth, and then stick the bolus capsul with your fingers.


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Sondra said:


> you can use a piece of pvc pipe in the back of the mouth, and then stick the bolus capsul with your fingers.


Hmm, can you explain that a little further, I'm not picturing it too well. How long a piece of PVC?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Use a piece of PVC in the mouth like a bit on a horse. This way it locks the molars into the PVC and they can not bite down on your fingers. I have small pudgy hands and short fingers, even though I am not short  I can not get my fingers past the PVC.

Bolsuing is not this hard folks! Vicki


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> I'm just directing you to a site where the studies, with research info., is printed.


The information tells you why you need to boluse instead of give the rods orally. + Vicki explained it pretty well.

I give the boluses, in the boluse gun, by going into the front of the mouth and putting the boluse in the back of the throat. It's a calf boluse gun and it's far enough into the throat that I'm past the back molars. I also don't have the nose of the goat any higher than her eyes and the muzzle is stretched out as if she were drinking. I give the boluse on the milk stand so I can stand facing the doe.
Kaye


----------



## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

I had a difficult time of it myself :blush I think most of them chewed it, so apparently I wasn't back far enough.. I used a doo-hicky attached to my drench gun with about 20cc H2O per goat. Also, every single one of them dropped in production the next day, one quit eating and is just now getting back up to where she was prior. Has anyone else had this happen? was it chewing the capsules that did it? I've got to get me a bolus gun, but now I'm 'bolus-shy' :sigh


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

You've seen the little rods, now, imagine chewing that. Getting in the gums, stuck in the throat...yep, I don't think I'd be eating either. That's why they need to be inside the gel-caps beside getting them in the right stomach.
No, I've not had them go off production, but if she got some of the rods lodged in her mouth, it could cause her to not want to eat. Get the boluses far enough back to get past the molars. Then they don't have a choice but to swallow. A boluse gun is about the only way to get them far enough.
Kaye


----------



## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks Kaye.. I won't have any to do until Jan, so hopefully I'll find me a bolus gun by then..
BTW, how do you get those smaller pills to stay in there until you get your goats mouth wrestled open and the gun down their throat??


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

Two will fit in my calf bolus gun tight enough to give. Or if you only need to give one you can squirt some Probios around it to help it stick in there until you can get it in their mouth. Thats what I do anyway. I don't have any trouble but I am thinking about maybe trying to get a smaller bolus gun for when I do give the boluses one at a time and maybe it would be a little easier.


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

Stacy,

They make several different sizes of bolusing guns. 

Sara


----------



## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

:duh That seemed too easy for me to have already known.. :crazy

Thanks!


----------



## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

BlissBerry said:


> Stacy,
> 
> They make several different sizes of bolusing guns.
> 
> Sara


Do you have one of each??


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

I have a few sizes but I only use one size for the copper boluses. In fact, the others never get used. 

Sara


----------



## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

:blush I have a confession to make...

Ive seen the comment about using a PVC pipe to hold the mouth open before-maybe it was here, or maybe on HT. Awhile back, anyway.

Ok, here's the "Duh"! :duh part-

the whole time, I envisioned using it the other way around- like a long tube that went into the back of the throat, and you put the bolus gun thru the opening and used it that way. Never did I get the idea you were using it sideways between the teeth. Thats why I was always too scared to try it- just couldnt bring myself to put a rigid tube in a throat. I was to worried I could cause tissue damage. 

I think the reason I interpreted it that way is because of using large syringes with the bottoms cut off as guides for inserting gastric tubes orally in people-an old trick from when I worked ER in the late 70's near Ft "Lude"rdale, FL and we had so many OD patients we'd do that with, to get those big honking gastric lavage tubes in the right place. With that, 4 point leather restraints and about 3 people laying on top of them and one in critical head position, you could usually get the tube down in time to get out most of the pills still intact if you got them early enough. Ahhh, I miss those days...NOT! I'm too old to play rodeo anymore....

But anywho, just in case anyone else got it backwards (  or should i say, sideways??) I wanted to highlight what Vicki said above about how to use the PVC correctly....

Geeze, lately I feel like if theres anything that can get misread, or misunderstood, I'll be the one to do it! Stress, menopause, early Oldtimers Disase, I'm not sure what it is, but I must be losign grey matter pretty fast. I hate it. If anyway finds my brain laying around, could they please save it for me until I can pick it up?

Until then, I think I'll stick with Multimin. No rodeo necessary. Long as I can manage not to stick myself, that is. :sigh


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:biggrin We used the same technique in dogs that we had to tube stuff into. PVC and tape around the muzzle. Especially BITERS! Or to pump the stomach and didn't want to sedate them. It keeps them from biting down on the tubes. :lol 

I KNOW the feeling about gray matter lost! What's worse is not being able to remember something and it suddenly coming to you IN YOUR SLEEP! When sleep is something I REALLY NEED about now. 
Kaye


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah getting that tube down them far enough and then inserted a pill gun....that's like double the work  See that's why we need everyone contributing, someone has to interrpert what we all say that we take for advantage everyone already knows. Vicki


----------



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

well after reading all the comments here, I will give you all a chuckle with my last bolusing episode. Our calf gun had finally bit the dust. threw it away and lo and behold they were all out at every Big R in the country. Looked several other places and after few wks. decided to order one, but lo and behold jeffers, valley vet and several others had them on backorder. So I decided I was waiting no longer. Was bound and determined to get the job done. first ones I crammed in the does mouths so fast they didn't know what hit them. my timid gal was too scared to even move when I pried her mouth open; she swallowed like a good girl. then got to the yearlings. several went down with only slight struggling. then came to the last two goof balls and the battle began. It came down to me prying the girl's mouth open with both hands but who was going to stick in the bolus? For quickness I was already holding a bolus between my dry lips, so I got real close and spit that sucker in deep and....down it went. I thought wow that was pretty good and did it again. I think that goat was in shock with horror as I was spitting things down her throat. She never looked so horrified with her eyes bugging out. But I got the job done at least :biggrin But at least with a gun, you don't have the occassional bolus dissolving in your mouth; nasty nasty. :sigh


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep, back in the day we used to use the sustain released calf bolus for cocci, you could tell breeders who used them because their pointy fingers had sores all over the sides of them from sharp teeth! One of my 4H kids thought about using a blow gun and blowing it into the back of the mouth as someone held the mouth open and tongue down!! vicki


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:rofl No way am I holding a copper boluse between my teeth! They were too blasted expensive-the teeth- to be spit down a goat's throat! 
I can just see the expression on the goat's face..."Mom's finally went off the deep end." :nooo
Kaye


----------



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

oh kaye that would be terrible!! don't go giving your good teeth to the goats now! :nooo

You know livestock people have to be about the healthiest around. We wade through all sorts of manure, deal with parasites, drink good for you milk, and never miss our yearly vaccinations (I get at least 4 different types between the goats and the cows) get our copper bolusing and then dose up real good with wormer several times a year also!! :rofl


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

On a serious note, do you all worry about the cydectin when giving it to the herd? I know I am wearing gloves, because I do get it on me before I am through. vicki


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Not really. I do try to keep MOST of it off me. 
In your case with your breathing problems..I'd be a little more concerned at how it would react in my system. 
Kaye


----------



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> On a serious note, do you all worry about the cydectin when giving it to the herd? I know I am wearing gloves, because I do get it on me before I am through. vicki


I always wonder about that vicki. the worst of it is I am the normal wormer gal in the fall when we work the cows and now that we have switched from injectable to pour on and we use those guns that connect to the great big bottles with the stupid hoses; you know the ones that are supposed to measure it out auto. after each squirt and they drip all over you in the mean time and never work right...well, I always get it all over me; of course trying to hurry and keep pace with the rest of the crew. I am adament about the kids keeping away and not getting it on them and try to be real careful when preg. myself, but gosh we have all been drenched in wormer so many times; I don't like it, but don't know what to do different really that is feasable.


----------

