# Reasoning behind NOT feeding alfalfa to pregnant does..



## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

I bought an Alpine doe pregnant and was told by the breeder to be very careful feeding alfalfa to her and to only feed in small amounts if I must. Said feeding too much would cause giant kids and milk fever.

Since she's been here (lil over a month) I've given her copper bolus, Bo-Se, dewormed with Cydectin, changed her food from a pelleted dairy ration, and grass hay to a grain mix, free choice alfalfa pellets (Standlee brand), coastal hay & Right Now Onyx minerals. She doesn't look fabulous, but her condition has improved greatly...

None of the goats gorge on the alfalfa pellets, but they do eat alot of them. 

Since being cautioned by her previous owner about over feeding alfalfa, I've heard the same caution from 3 other people, one raises boers, one 4H person and a vet tech....One told me that I'm letting her have too much alfalfa and I'm setting myself up for a bad kidding & a doe with milk fever...All 3 think I'm crazy and swear goats rarely need alfalfa, and when thet do feed it, it's no where near the amounts I feed...

Obviously I don't believe this..... if it were true several folks here would be having lots of problems.

But I'm curious as to WHY so many people are telling me this? Is it kind of like a goat care old wives tale, similar to using tobacco to deworm?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Since most older breeders have dealt with what they think is ketosis and not ever heard of hypocalcemia, perhaps you might want to send her Sue Reiths articles in goatkeeping101. The premise is.

They think by backing off the high quality alfalfa, and no grain, a doe then will rebuild a smaller grain fed rumen to a larger more roughage based rumen, which then gets her back into shape faster to go back onto alfalfa and grain when she freshens. They also want her to have to pull calcium from her blood and bones, rather than have alfalfa which is high in calicum, because they believe that too much calcium causes the metobolic diseases they fight at kidding, milk fever, ketosis and pregnancy toxemia. None of this is true. Esepcially when you add our low copper and high iron in Texas. Your banking alot that she actually has calcium in her blood stored, because like has been seen on the forum and elsewhere, when the doe doesn't have stored calcium, she crashes or she pulls calcium from her bones and bows her legs.

There is no talking some into things like this unless you can catch them going into crisis and save their doe, I have done this many times with Sue articles, like Sue saved a doe of mine, and then the light bulb goes off, even a vet at a major teaching univeristy out here. Even my vet. Goats have to be SEVERLY missmanaged to ever get ketosis or pregnancy toxemia.

And it isn't about worming with tobacco etc....it's akin to worming with Ivermectin monthly because they have been since the 90's. Never fecaled to see if it's needed or if it works, just keep on doing it. Vicki


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Thanks Vicki  Thought there surely had to be a reason that people were preaching this to me.....Then again to be fair, 2 of these people have told me goats only need to be dewormed with SafeGuard & that Ivermectin is only for external parasites like mites.... 

All but one of these people are self proclaimed experts & set in their ways.....they think their goats look fine & won't change a thing.....the vet tech is a very open minded girl...Only one at that clinic who doesn't fuss about me feeding my dogs RAW and even switched her dogs to RAW about a year ago......She's wanting to get La Manchas and I sent her this site, along with several of Sue's articles


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

This is like an old wives tale. Several years ago I went to Convention and we were actually advised to do this. I tried it and wound up with two goats getting milk fever when they freshened from increasing the grass hay and cutting back the alfalfa. We're back on straight alfalfa here and the goats do great.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I was at a birthing clinic put on by MSU this Saturday. They also said the same thing. The one guy has a phd in small ruminants and both guys are teaching there. They said if you wanted to increase calcium add limestone. They didn't know or believe that there is an injectable CMPK. Promoted the use of calcium gluconate. I won't even go into the other garbage I got out of the clinic.


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## mathewsfive (May 2, 2010)

Wow!!! I am soo glad when I bought my first doe I bought from someone who was a member of this forum and not someone who believed all that! I think my experience in dairy goats would have not lasted had I had to deal with all that and not known how to fix it.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Oh at first I bought into all that "no alfalfa" hooey. I had a doe start smelling of ketosis during labor which lasted about six hours and almost lost her and her quintuplets. But researching after that got me to a good feeding regimen. And eventually brought me here.


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

MF-Alpines said:


> I was at a birthing clinic put on by MSU this Saturday. They also said the same thing. The one guy has a phd in small ruminants and both guys are teaching there. They said if you wanted to increase calcium add limestone. They didn't know or believe that there is an injectable CMPK. Promoted the use of calcium gluconate. I won't even go into the other garbage I got out of the clinic.


Wow! I can kind of understand these local ol timers who are set in their ways preaching this sort of thing, but it's hard to believe in this day & age, with the internet at your fingertips, that a UNIVERSITY couldn't update their knowkedge and provide more accurate information at their clinic. That's insane!


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, that answers the question of whether I was going to invest the money and time to go to Oklahoma for their goat seminar. Um. NO.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

When I was doing my research I thought it was common sense....I read that does needed calcium to grow those babies and produce milk....Alfalfa supplies calcium, why would someone want to NOT feed alfalfa? I feed alfalfa hay...and when I can't (due to it not being available) I supplement w/ alfalfa pellets.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

30 years ago, it was thought that calcium fed before kidding/calving would lead to "milk fever." Many people who had animals back then still believe that to be the case. While I never had "milk fever" in my goats, I sure had issues with some of the cows. Common sense told me they needed calcium with properly balanced phosphorus, so I changed them to a higher calcium mineral and the problems went away.

I couldn't get alfalfa back then, and I still can't get it now. I feed my goats alfalfa pellets with the grass hay.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Well am I glad I didn't waste my time going to the MSU clinic


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Free choice alfalfa here (and alfalfa pellets too). I haven't had any problems and will be freshening over 30 goats this year whom have been on that diet at least 2 years or since they were born. 

Of course I am crossing my fingers as kidding starts for us next week but I am not expecting any problems due to that since we had none last year either.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

SherrieC said:


> Well am I glad I didn't waste my time going to the MSU clinic


Yes, be glad. I wasted the day. It is too bad, because this same guy put on a great worming/fecalling clinic this past summer. Hands on for the whole "how to fecal" part, slide show and handouts were excellent. Even talked about copper bolusing to keep worm burdens down.



Rose said:


> Well, that answers the question of whether I was going to invest the money and time to go to Oklahoma for their goat seminar. Um. NO.


Oh, Rose. You can't judge every clinic based on this one on this one Saturday. You may find something, a tip or a reminder of something, that makes it worth it. LOL. I'm still looking for it from this past Saturday.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

I was explaining to my husband the other day why I bought CMPK "just in case." During the course of he conversation I found myself explaining (and had a lightbulb moment), how these goats are high production milk animals that weigh as much as a human moher but make 2-4 human sized goat kids in ONE pregnancy. Can you imagine going to the obgyn or midwife and them telling you not to drink your milk each day? Sheesh. This seems a no-brainer.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's what they learn in vet school. So unless they have a reason to learn more, they don't...and remember they treat goats they don't have goats. Most vets have no idea the outcome of their advice, having a dairy my vet had a lot of contact with me and my goats, she also knew we were a young family and I lived off my milk checks. So when goats died, she knew it was literally taking food from my kids mouths...well not that bad but they certainly got no extras. We had to come up with another way to treat this ketosis we had....when we finally figured out it wasn't even ketosis, and used the calcium we used after we aborted them, it was a lightbulb moment for her also. And a doe can be in hypocalcemia and still have a normal calcium blood test...a doe can be in severe copper deficiency and still have a normal blood test.. Goats!!!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> It's what they learn in vet school. So unless they have a reason to learn more, they don't...and remember they treat goats they don't have goats. Most vets have no idea the outcome of their advice, having a dairy my vet had a lot of contact with me and my goats, she also knew we were a young family and I lived off my milk checks. So when goats died, she knew it was literally taking food from my kids mouths...well not that bad but they certainly got no extras. We had to come up with another way to treat this ketosis we had....when we finally figured out it wasn't even ketosis, and used the calcium we used after we aborted them, it was a lightbulb moment for her also. And a doe can be in hypocalcemia and still have a normal calcium blood test...a doe can be in severe copper deficiency and still have a normal blood test.. Goats!!!


Actually, Vicki, these guys I'm talking about are not vets. They actually have there own herds. That's what makes it especially disappointing.

Can you explain about the blood tests? How or why does a mineral show up in the blood, yet they are still deficient?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Because they are not storing it. Goats store calcium in their bones and copper in their liver, it's why with plenty of calcium the goats still bow their legs...they aren't storing calcium because it's blocked by too much protien or lack of another nutritient...they aren't utilizing the 3000 PPM of copper because it's all copper sulfate or there is other defficency or excess (iron for us) that keeps them from storing it in the liver for use later. We know a normal copper test of blood is meaningless, ours were normal initially but almost undectable in our first liver biopsy, this happened over and over according to Joyce on saanendoah.com I had perfectly normal blood levels of calicum on does who were dead in 12 hours, most before the tests came back, of 'ketosis'. It's not a fact lost on me that once we started feeding alfalfa each day we never had ketosis again


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Is there a guideline of how much alfalfa is needed? Say in my case, I don't fed alfalfa hay because I can't find good quality or a reliable source, so I feed standlee alfalfa pellets instead. Is there a minimum amount a pregnant doe should be getting per day?

Originally I filled the feeder everyday.....until my mini had her buck kids who like to sleep in that narrow feeder, so I've just been toting out pellets a few times a day. My standard girl is eating about 4lbs of pellets a day and was due on the 17th (she's holding out on me). Is this enough for her? 

Once the buck kid goes to freezer camp I'll go back to filling the feeder again, but in the mean time, me taking out just what they will finish in a setting 3-4 times a day is saving me from dumping it because the lil brats messed in it..


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

When in milk my does eat about 3 pounds a day, when dry about 1 pound. Vicki


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

My feeding of alfalfa pellets is similar to Vicki's. In fact, before I found a cheaper pellet, the Standlee brand was what I used as well. About a pound per milking (on the stand) then possibly up to another pound throughout the day (a snack here or there, as I'd go out to check on them, change water, or just work around the barn and pens).

For small-scale operations (just a few does) I would never want to use exclusively long-stem hay again for the only source of roughage.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Bill did you feed them grain or a pelleted feed as well? Or just Alfalfa?


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Ziggy,

My does got a 'smell' of grain (the past decade or so) at milking time. My "TUNA CAN" grain scoop is no joke! The best condition AND production my does have ever enjoyed has been with Alfalfa Pellets as the main item on the menu at meal times (on the milk stand).

Otherwise, as always, some long-stem alfalfa, a snack here and there of a few pellets out for them depending on the day and time, and grass hay, browse in the field, twigs, tree leaves, etc. Caprine Cuisine ala Nature's intention has proven the best for my money!

Particularly, for does that are going to milk through for a two-year extended lactation, this feeding program produces the best overall condition (not fat, but good dairy condition) and results in far fewer kidding problems, gestational problems, and less worry in general. I will *knock wood* but I almost never had to use a needle over the past several decades. The only exceptions were if something was dramatically and actually wrong (like if a doe had an unusual ((very rare)) kidding and had to go in to help). Otherwise. No, not even BoSe, CDT, etc. Just good eyeball watching of their health and how they apparent to be feeling, worming (not herbal) when appropriate and needed. Dam-raising also allowed for almost zero maintenance (certainly no shots needed) for kid rearing as well.

Shoot me now if I ever get Alzheimer's and think about the "old recommended practice" of feeding goats like so many have over the years. Growing up on a dairy I respect milk, but having an education I also respect the bottom line and cost effectiveness of milk produced and NOT having a lot of entries in the 'Veterinary' column! When you do the math across the board, less definitely is more (at least more IN my pocket). Profit may be elusive, but lowered overall costs certainly is an aspect to aspire to, IMO!


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks very much. Nice to hear that coming from someone with your years of experience.


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Ziggy,

You are welcome to pick my brain anytime ... but I warn you, sometimes the pickin's are pretty slim <G> Hey... I see you are an advocate of solar power. Hopefully you will have more information and pictures, etc. on your webpage.

I really respect those of you who are doing as much "green" as possible.

Congrats!


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## Angela (Feb 13, 2010)

There are so many wives tales and mis-information out there! I am amazed that my first goat is still alive! :lol

I was talking to a boer breeder two weeks ago who told me feeding alfalfa will cause bloat. That was a new one. I know she was trying to help me but when I started to explain why I was feeding it and how long I had been doing so - she just shook her head and told me again to be careful and not feed much. I stopped, said thanks, and out the door I went.

I am very glad for DGI!


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

Angela,
I have heard that, but since I haven't had bloat yet, I will just stick to what I am doing


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