# Doe hard to milk, bad teats??



## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

Hi,
I have a three yr old Reg Nubian doe, whom I was given, (along with the doe with knee issues that I posted about earlier). After I brought them home and decided to actually really get into goats and milk, I asked to purchase them to get the papers. (hmm....could there be a reason they were offered free first?) LOL! 
Anyway, not knowing what a doe looks like who has kidded a few times I didn't think about the way the teats looked when she was dry. Consequently, I bred her. She has always had an issue on the milk stand, we trim hooves ect on there. She always fights us getting on, and is always pulling back and just scared out of her mind! I couldn't think of any reason why she would do this unless she just had bad experiences all the time.......until, she kidded last week and gave us two gorgeous little doelings!! This is where I put it all together, got her up on the milk stand to get the kids their colostrum and this doe went balistic!! Her teats were HUGE! and I thought, well if I milk her some she will get relief and feel better and calm down!! WRONG!! she just continued to act up I did get enough to feed them, and then let her go. Had a hell of a time catching her afterwards, to the point that I just said, forget it! And I'm using my 1st gen mini Nubian, who is the best milker and a great goat!! Ok, let me see if I can get pics on here.









Anyway, just wondering what others think, these girls both come from a pretty well known farm on the west side of the state, and yea, just thinking, aren't udders and teats on dairy goats, kinda like feet on horses??? just sayn!! :?
Anyway, she acted like she was in pain the whole time I was trying to milk her, which would lead me to believe, that if she was in pain every time she was on the stand, that would be why she didn't want to be on there. I just don't understand, why a farm wouldn't cull a doe with teats like this, if they had such issues, the next question would be is it hereditary?? :faint
Thanks for any help you can give, my husband is upset and wants her gone! I am just trying to make an ethical decision, I don't need to sell something that would come back to bite me, I don't even have a reputation right now, I sure don't need a bad one right off the bat!! LOL!


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Well, her udder isn't perfect, but it isn't the worst I've ever seen either. And the farm you got her from did cull her, by giving her to you. LOL
It really isn't something I would put her down for. The big problem for me would be if I couldn't get her calmed down to milk her. It can take time, though, to train your doe. Staying calm and keeping the same routine day after day, Now if you are letting her go without milking her, then yes, her udder will be ruined.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Just milk her. Those are not huge teats and she has a very nice rear udder.

Most people ruin their goats by not milking them and letting a few kids nurse. Most nubians come from years of bloodlines picked and bred together to get more and more milk, way more milk than two little 8 pound kids can nurse out. So the udder gets filled, painful, the doe is then at fault because it hurts to be nursed, she then kicks at you, at the kids. If you milk the doe it makes the udder softer, the next time the kids nurse it's a better feeling for her so she doesn't see her kids as making her have pain. Same with you, tie her feet to the milkstand, milk her out quickly and efficently, let her eat her grain and pet her.

Plum teats are herditary, the teat that is much larger on the right is simply bigger because it has been allowed to be engorged with milk. The left side has likely been nursed by kids so it didn't ever balloon up with milk.

Why not see these does, if they pass health inspection for CAE, as the start of your purebred herd if they do have good breedings behind them?


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Patience and treats are the way to getting your doe with being ok on the milk stand. No treats except on the milk stand, no grain unless on the milk stand (hay and alfalfa off the stand)) and she wills oon want to be there. I had that issue with a couple this year. Now they LOVE the milk stand.


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

I saw Sully's recommendation about giving treats on another topic and tried it with one of my first fresheners. She was a pain! She kicked and bucked like crazy. We had to hobble each leg so she could hardly move. Anyway, I started giving apple and oat horse treats only at milking time, after milking was done. 

It was the best tool/trick I tried. Now she hops right up and we don't have to use the hobble at all.

I definitely agree with the treats idea!


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Just milk her. Those are not huge teats and she has a very nice rear udder.
> 
> Most people ruin their goats by not milking them and letting a few kids nurse. Most nubians come from years of bloodlines picked and bred together to get more and more milk, way more milk than two little 8 pound kids can nurse out. So the udder gets filled, painful, the doe is then at fault because it hurts to be nursed, she then kicks at you, at the kids. If you milk the doe it makes the udder softer, the next time the kids nurse it's a better feeling for her so she doesn't see her kids as making her have pain. Same with you, tie her feet to the milkstand, milk her out quickly and efficently, let her eat her grain and pet her.
> 
> ...


Ok so there is nothing wrong with the teats?? I knew when she first freshened it would be painful, that makes sense, but, it seemed as if the right teat hurt more? Like, I could feel the milk, leaking in the teat?? If that makes sense? All my girls have been tested, these two the black one spoken of earlier and this one, I tested them when I first got them and they came from a CAE neg herd. This is why I sent you the pics, cause I just wanted some expert advise. She is so petrified!! I will try it again, and give her treats, and hopefully she hasn't dried up!! I certainly didn't want to get rid of her if her teats were ok, but I needed someone to tell me that.
Thanks guys!!


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

She is fine. The teats are probably structurally different because of managment -as Vicki said. I agree that she looks to have a nice rear udder..can't tell height without the vulva but her attachments look good. Sounds to me like she has a major attitude problem. Hopefully you can work that out!


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

ok well.... we just had another round! She refuses to eat, even treats on the stand?? I tied her feet, and she screamed and hollered and jumped around, especially when I was milking the right teat. It's like it hurts her?? even after you have been milking awhile, I may have waited to long to go back to milking tho, her udder is smaller and a bit hard, I checked the strip cup and the milk looked ok?? Could it be udder congestion from trying to dry up?? So if I keep milking her will she come back into milk?? Dang it!! I knew I should have put those pics up as soon as I had the problem!! But, being a new kid mom I had my hands full trying to figure out what to do next?? It's a shame cause of all my purebred Nubians, of which I have four, three does and a buck, she is probably the most typie. Ok, I was going to wait to put this on but if you want to see my pitiful excuse of a goat ranch you can go to www.mmvranch.webs.com it's a work in progress, please don't hurt yourself laughing too hard!! I am not a techie and I have no idea how to put a website together. I just posted pictures of the herd, and I will probably go back and edit more. Anyway, it gives you an idea of what they all look like and I think I put some of their lines on there. Definitely needs improvement.
Ok, gotta go finish milking!
Man she sure acts like that right one is killing her!! :down


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

It sounds the opposite of what you want to do but, try sqeezing around the top of the teat harder when you milk. I have one with a slightly ballooned teat and it's harder to keep the milk from flowing back up into the udder on her. Even my most well behaved doe kicks if I let the milk flow backwards.
The most important thing is to calmly and firmly milk that goat. It doesn't matter how you have to tie her, where the milk bucket ends up, where the milk ends up, just keep milking until she's empty. Don't let her dictate when you're going to stop. I have one I finally broke of stepping in the milk by grabbing up one hind leg and making her stand in the pail with the other until I was done. She never put her foot in the bucket again. This goat sounds as though she's gotten away with this before and she won that time.


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

She has probably had bad exeperiences on the milkstand and they tend to remember those. Shoot, when we used to hand milk and I had to let DH milk when I was gone, I had to chase down my does to get them on the milkstand. I have no idea what he did to them. Machine milking has been no problem. So patience is the key. Just keep trying and hopefully you will succeed. Only had one in my life that I could never fully train to the milkstand and that was our very first goat. 
I too like her rear udder and do not feel that those are "huge" teats. I have one doe that looks similar that I bought as an adult and the seller said they had lerned their lesson about letting a doe dam raise and NOT milk them twice a day also. Lopsided teats were the result.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

I actually think that's a pretty nice udder. You just have to stick with it.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I had a doe I had to practically do Yoga to get milked. Maybe being a contortionist is a better way of putting it. She was a Nubian.

I started off by (trying to) milking normally. When she acted up the grain would go away and I would tie her head up short even with it thru the stanchion part of the milk stand. The far side leg would be tied. The leg closest to where I was sitting would be lifted and her stifle hung over my shoulder. I would hang onto her lower leg with one hand and milk with the other. It seemed to take forever but she finally got a bit better to where the treat and "grain take away when acting badly" worked all by itself. She was a stubborn thing, but I am even more stubborn that she ever thought of being! I could out stubborn a mule.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I just looked at your website. Which one is the doe you are having trouble with?
I certainly wouldn't be culling willy-nilly; you have some nice animals there!


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

OH, thanks, the one who is giving me fits is the roan doe, which makes me sad cause of all the Nubians, I think she's the one with the best representation. I really don't want to cull anything reg, not yet anyway, I am selling off all my non reg and kids. I was just to the VA and I have been struggling back and hip issues, well the hip just turned out to be a bigger issue, I'm probably going to have to have a partial replacement. Can't get it done till next year, so my husband told me well, asked and reasoned with me and said I need to probably sell everything except my little mini! All I could do is cry! I love my girls and this stinkn hip thing will get taken care of and I'll be back on my feet! I don't want to get rid of the stuff I've worked hard to obtain unless they are dogs! He gets it, he just works too much to help and he wants a life. I get that too, but, I think, we can down size to some degree and work with what we have.
Thanks for looking, appreciate it!


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

Well, we tried again this am, it rained like hell here, which it doesn't usually do, and it's muddy and nasty, so I ran everyone in a smaller pen I was using for kidding and captured Miss Fidelity. As usual she was stubborn about getting on the stand, I saved her for last, because I had already fed the kids and I wanted to take my time. I decided not to use the leg restraint right off the bat, just see how it goes with out it, if I'm not in a hurry, she was still shaking and crying for a while, I tried milking and she started up kicking, so instead of tying a leg, I put hobbles on her. She actually stood better for those. She still screamed blue bloody murder when I milked her right teat, and I did try to keep it closed at the top. I could feel some of the milk going back up, I'm not very coordinated with my left hand yet, so I used my right for a while. The left teat is not milking well either? It's like it will squirt for a while and stop, like there is no milk there, even tho it's engorged? Anyway, she did eventually calm down enough to eat just a little grain, so, I guess that's progress. I only got about 8 oz of milk tho! :sigh
I will try milking her three time a day to see if I can get her production back, I am not expecting it to be back where it should be, I shouldn't have tried letting her dry up, but, I had my hands full, and I just wasn't sure she was worth my time. 
Oh here is another picture of her udder, now this was taken the day she freshened, it doesn't look like that now. :down


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

And another full body picture


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Just milk her. Those are not huge teats and she has a very nice rear udder.
> 
> Most people ruin their goats by not milking them and letting a few kids nurse. Most nubians come from years of bloodlines picked and bred together to get more and more milk, way more milk than two little 8 pound kids can nurse out. So the udder gets filled, painful, the doe is then at fault because it hurts to be nursed, she then kicks at you, at the kids. If you milk the doe it makes the udder softer, the next time the kids nurse it's a better feeling for her so she doesn't see her kids as making her have pain. Same with you, tie her feet to the milkstand, milk her out quickly and efficently, let her eat her grain and pet her.
> 
> ...


Vicki, you made me laugh!! I have only milked since July of last year for a few months, which was the first time I've ever milked anything!! To milk quickly and efficiently is something I haven't acquired yet! LOL!
My old Mini doe is the best milker I have and I learned on her, she has great teat placement and right now is giving a gallon a day! Anyway, the black doe had a single buckling a few days ago, she is a first freshener, she too used to kick, but, obviously she knows instinctively what she needs to do, cause she has let me milk her ( with a thumb and two fingers!) with no problems. I have been having a tough time keeping a regular schedule. Some how I have to get on a 12 and 12 or something that works, these poor kids have no idea when I will come and get them, although they let me know pretty much. Anyway, don't know if I can post baby pics here, but, I'll try


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

Electras Bucklings, 
first gen mini Nubian/Nubian









Fidelity's Twin Doelings


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

Wow! I just found some pictures on line of my bucks dam and grand dam!
check out the udders on these gals!
Could he throw that in is girls??

__
https://flic.kr/p/4438946630


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Your does udder is just as nice. The difference is that these goats have been milked and kept even. But teats are just two points out of 35, so keep that in perspective.


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Your does udder is just as nice. The difference is that these goats have been milked and kept even. But teats are just two points out of 35, so keep that in perspective.


Really?? Two points?? Good to know, well thanks for looking at them for me!


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

Ok got a picture of the black doe's udder tonight, this is the same doe, that I had posted about bad knees, who is doing much better since the Bo Se shot, btw! 
Anyway, she had a single buckling! My husband is so funny, he said," ok, why don't we keep him" ? I said, and breed him to what??? I told him, they have to be exceptional to keep as an intact male. I need to do some research and find another buck. I guess I will worry about that when the time comes! Too much going on now!! 

















Anyway, I really appreciate eveyone's looking and giving feed back. When things calm down, I'm going to start genetic testing as well. I am learning a lot, especially here!
Good to have a place to bounce things off others who have been there!
Thank you!


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

Hi all!
Had a friend of mine come over yesterday and help me with the doe. She used to milk dairy goats when she was younger, like 15 head, she raises Boers now, anyway, she came down and we got the doe on the stand and she started milking her and her opinion was.....like some here, you have to just get in and milk her, ( apparently I milk to slow! LOL!) She told me , she is a hard milker, but, if you get in and just go, she's not bad, she said she needs work on some manners, but she thought she just may not have been milked in a long time. I am so new to milking, that having one goat that is easy to milk, I had never encountered that, anyway, with her help she was able to get her milked and this being her 4th milking this week, she is actually getting better!
Just want to say thanks to everyone, for their support and encouragement!
Julie


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I am so glad you got to watch her milk. It is just a getting in and doing it, matter of factly. You will get faster with time. Vicki


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## mmvranch (May 7, 2012)

Thanks Vicki!
I appreciate all you help!! :thankyou2


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

It's kind of annoying when kids nurse one side, cause even if you do milk them out twice a day like you should, one teat gets stretch from filling in between milkings while the other teat never gets a chance to fill. Once kids are pulled and the udder gets to fill both sides evenly for the same amount of time, the unstretched teat will stretch too. I like them a little stretched myself, each squirt empties more milk. Good luck training your doe. Some of it is just temperament. Some does just don't want to accept their job at first. Sometimes I use a Henry Milker for a couple milkings. It requires less handling of the teat, and the doe will learn how good it feels to be emptied.


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

Can I jump in on teats? My twin doelings, 4 months old, have totaly different teats. One is about 1 1/4" llong and the other just 2 dots. Is this a predictor of what to expect when they freshen? Dorit


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## feistymomma (May 20, 2009)

Dorit- My nubian doe was the same way. One teat was bigger than the other from the beginning. She just freshened for the first time on Wed. She was very uneven and one teat was much larger than the other. As I have been milking her, the udder seems to be improving but the teats are still different sizes.


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

Oh gosh, sorry, what I mean is twin does each one with very different set of teats.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I freshened twins this year and their udders and teats are completely different. I didn't look at them at 4 months to predict. It does seem like doelings with long teats do have longer teats when they freshen.


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## Dorit (Apr 20, 2011)

dance: I hope so because Im getting real bad carpal tunnel :/


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Dorit said:


> dance: I hope so because Im getting real bad carpal tunnel :/


Time to splurge on a machine!!!


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## feistymomma (May 20, 2009)

Sorry Dorit! I read your post wrong....need some sleep lol! With the same doe I spoke about before, her twin sister has an awesome looking udder (she is still owned by the breeder). I am guessing my doe had the odd teats out. Her udder is looking so much better though 3 days post kidding. She is evening up and looking pretty good now. One teat is still bigger, but not too bad.


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