# Milking a first freshener



## Pairaka (Jan 12, 2008)

I have a doe that just kidded and I want to start milking her (obviously). She's a two-year-old first freshener and is extremely sensitive about her hind quarters and her udder being touched. She's been up on my milk stand a few times. I do not have a barn and bring my milkers into my basement to milk them using a single stand and if there is more than one doe that is being milked they each get a bucket of feed to keep them busy until it's their turn to milk. This is how I make sure my milkers are getting their share of the feed and can control what they eat. 

Well, I tried to get my new doe up on the stand today and at least go through the motions of milking her. Not milk her out (I don't take the kids away; I just put them up at night and milk once a day in the morning and I haven't started doing that with her yet) but maybe get her used to being dipped and wiped and perhaps get a few squirts of milk. 

Needless to say, it did not go well at all. She was quite uncooperative and jumped and kicked quite aggressively. I have a hobble that I put on her, but that just meant that she kicked both legs at once instead of one. I mean, I couldn't even wipe her without her freaking out. Which is strange because usually this doe is extremely gentle and friendly. She is hardly "wild."

Having had only one FF previously (and she had been milked previously before I bought her--this doe's mother), I have experienced some of this behavior but not to this degree. Is it just a matter of getting her into a routine: Getting her onto the stand every morning, going through the routine, trying to get a little more done each day? Will she eventually calm down? Is there anything I can do to keep the experience from getting too stressful for her? I really need to be able to milk her because my last doe is only giving us about a quart of milk a day--that doesn't sound like much, but one of my daughters is allergic to cow's milk and she's the reason we have goats. 

Thanks, 

Wendy


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Wendy is she in milk now?? if so then tie those shakles down to the stand so she can't kick. and milk her. If not then wait until she come into milk just putting her on the stand to eat for the routine.


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## Pairaka (Jan 12, 2008)

Yes, she's in milk now. She's formed a nice udder and has lots of milk. 

I guess I'm going to have to do that and grin and bear it. 

Thanks for the reply. 

-- Wendy


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Yep and sometimes they just won't cooperate my very first one would stand with her head locked in and in the feed bucket and all fours off the stand I finally got rid of her. Was such a chore to get her milked.


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## Beverrlly (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm not sure if this is feasible for you but a milking machine might just be the answer. Once it's on, she can kick but she won't be able to stop the milking and she can't put her foot in the milk bucket!


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Maybe if you just feed her on the milkstand first and then let her eat the rest of her portion after being milked. Also, sometimes it can take a week or longer before a FF catches on. it can also be a breed thing, some are more flighty than others.

For instance, I just put three pregnant does on the milkstand for shots, they had not ever even been in the milkroom before. They hopped on the stand, ate their feed, didn't flinch during the injection, let me look at their feet, and allowed me to rub their udder to accustom them to it. Each one of these newbies squatted over the imaginary pail with the reflex as if they were being milked. I attribute this to the LaMancha breed, well 2 were MiniManchas. I have never had a LaMancha kick on the stand, even a FF. When I had Nubians and 2 Alpines, they always kicked and fought and bucked around until they got used to it. So it could be the breed.


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## Melissa (Oct 27, 2007)

and this is a very good reason I pull kids at birth. let the dam see *you* as her kid. well, too late for that now. but next year...

-Melissa


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## Good Goats (Oct 26, 2007)

We've had our share of crazy milkers. . . one we had for several years and every time she needed to be milked someone would site behind her and hold both her back legs while someone else milked. She got WAY better than she was when we first got her and at times my brother would be able to milk her by himself. She was also a huge grain piglet... sometimes my brothers would put medium-sized rocks in her grain to make her pick around them so that it took her longer to eat .

I freshened 4 first fresheners last year. All of them kicked a small bit at first but then after a few days they were used to it and are totally great milkers/stand there now (still milking 3 of them)

The first time is always the worst . . . . have fun Wendy !!

Suriyah


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## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

Now someone was saying, I think it was Patty, to stand behind her, put her rear legs up on your shoulder and milk away. :rofl

I hope she calms down for you. I agree about tieing her feet down to the stand. I have a cleet on my stand for that, although I don't have anyone I have to use them for right now.


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## Pairaka (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. I'll see what I can do. 

Right now I don't have a milking machine and it's really not that cost effective, either. We're hoping to get into milking more in the future but that's a different story. 

I've read that it is easier to milk them if you take the kids away and make them see you as their kids, but I tried milking twice a day the first year we had goats. I'm doing this all by my lonesome and with three does milking twice a day, I was exhausted. I just can't manage having to be around in the evening to milk when I've got three girls who need to be driven all over the place for different activities, etc. Plus it was just really rough on me. And this upcoming year, after my eldest daughter has gone off to college, I'll be back to having to take my youngest to rifle practice three times a week after school. 

Last year I decided to let the kids stay with the dams and just milk once a day and it was much, much easier on us all. Besides the fact that I'm not throwing as much milk out because we just can't keep up with drinking it. 

I'm sure I'll be able to get this doe to calm down. At least to the point where I can milk her with a lot less effort. 

Thanks everyone!  

-- Wendy


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Not to be a smart alleck, but seriously, are these all Nubians? None of my LM EVER do this and the only goats I have ever had a problem with in the past were Nubains. And not all of my girls are bottle-fed either. You can't tell bottle-fed from dam-raised, they are exactly the same temperment. It is the major thing that keeps me in lamanchas, I am too old to fight...goats.


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

Melissa said:


> and this is a very good reason I pull kids at birth. let the dam see *you* as her kid. well, too late for that now. but next year...
> 
> -Melissa


 That is the problem. She don't want you taking her baby's milk. She will probably settle down somewhat in a week or so, once she figures out that her feed is on the milk stand. I have a boer doe that I've been milking and she is raising a doeling. She jumped and kicked at first, but now she doesn't and it has been 2 weeks since she kidded... and that is a boer doe that has never been milked. This is her second freshening. So there is hope, though it is aggravating.


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## Corky (Oct 26, 2007)

I am by no means an expert as we all know and FF"s can be a real pain till they learn but,
I had one that did that last year and both of us had to milk her. DH held he legs down and I milked but it turned out that she had mastitis. NOT the kind that makes a hard udder so I had no idea, but she would not even let her kid touch the bad side.
She fought so hard because it HURT for me to touch it.
Once we got her treated she settled right down but her milk never was good.
She also suffered with a blown teet on that side. Poor thing has NOT had a good life so far.
She will go bye bye this Summer. If I can find a good home for her she will go there or she will become hamburger because I will NOT take her to the sale barn.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Feral Nature said:


> Not to be a smart alleck, but seriously, are these all Nubians? None of my LM EVER do this and the only goats I have ever had a problem with in the past were Nubains. And not all of my girls are bottle-fed either. You can't tell bottle-fed from dam-raised, they are exactly the same temperment. It is the major thing that keeps me in lamanchas, I am too old to fight...goats.


One of the most difficult first fresheners I've ever had was a La Mancha. Blossom had Boer cross doelings her first freshening so I let her raise them. She has a wonderful udder and folks wondered why I didn't show her that first year. It was because she was a real PITA on the milk stand. I eventually got her trained and she is now easy to milk, but I had to repeat the whole training process with her daughter. My Nubies vary from goat to goat as to ease of training, but none were as stubborn as Blossom.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

I'm gonna drop a note in here from Tim Pruitt. Tim is a member of this forum and is a pretty smart old cookie when it comes to this kinda stuff. This may be a little off from the question that you need answered, but it is close and might help at some point in time.

""""Whim,
There's something that "kicks in" when a doe kids. The day before they kid it is "don't touch my udder". After giving birth the same doe that would kick or squirm will allow her udder to be touched. The transformation is amazing!

It is best to train the first fresheners to jump on the stand, get their treat (raisins or hand full of grain). Always let it be a pleasant experience. I suggest you lock them in each time BUT don't leave them. Goats become afraid they will be stuck forever and will develop a phobia. My goats don't like for me to walk out of the room while they are on the stand. The moment I walk out - they will start screaming, "Don't forget me!" Some are worse than others about this but most of them do have a fear of being left on the stand.
Once they kid, you probably should tie the back leg nearest you. This will keep that footout of the bucket and your temper in check. : Some does will automatically lift the leg nearest you and hold it up, even if they are not kicking, especially when the udder is full. Many does do this even when their kids nurse until they get used to being milked. Tying the foot ususally becomes less important after a few weeks, although some will take up to a month to get used to you milking her. Be aware that on some does you may have to tie both feet and keep in mind that a newly developing udder is tender and can be somewhat painful.

Since you are milking Nigerians, I will make an assumption that the teats on these first fresheners are going to be small. Big hands and small teats just don't go together. Even my Nubians take a couple of weeks sometimes for the teats to grow to decent size. Milking too high on the udder can cause blood in the milk. Pink milk will be an indication that you are being too rough when milking or reaching too high on the udder trying to get milk.

Does that are nursing kids are more prone to hold up their milk for their kids. They will also get antsy when milking out that last bit for the same reason. """"

Tim Pruitt
187 J.O. Pruitt Rd
Haynesville, LA 71038
[email protected]


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

From the time our doelings are born, we rub their little udders, manipulating them and as they "squat" in reflex, we say "be a milkgoat be a milkgoat". So their entire lives they are trained to do the milkgoat squat when their udder is touched. They can just feel the breeze our hands make coming toward their belly hair and they will squat as if there is a milk pail under them. It is conditioning since young that helps.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

> The transformation is amazing!


 It really is. I always start feeding FF on the milk stand a couple of weeks before they freshen to get them used to it and they will stomp around when you try to touch the udder. Once they kid they act like it is nothing. I do believe they are easier break to milk if they never see the kids though. They need relief and you are giving it to them by milking.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, if you remove the kids at birth, you become their kid. So if the doe was bottle-fed herself too, then you are their momma as well as their kid and are double-bonded to them. My does lick and kiss and talk to us during labor practically rubbing skin off, like a rough tongued cat. When they have never ever nursed a kid, they think that humans are their kids prior to kidding forever after the first time.


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## Melissa (Oct 27, 2007)

I'm also a fan of the udder rub/scratch. doing this from kid or even calf, it showes them that when their udder is touched it's a good thing. but, I don't touch it once the udder starts developing as it may be REALLY sensitive and make them jumpy.

-Melissa


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## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

Pairaka said:


> INeedless to say, it did not go well at all. She was quite uncooperative and jumped and kicked quite aggressively. I have a hobble that I put on her, but that just meant that she kicked both legs at once instead of one. I mean, I couldn't even wipe her without her freaking out. Which is strange because usually this doe is extremely gentle and friendly. She is hardly "wild."


Wendy
I had one last year who's such a sweet & gentle doe, but who lifted the entire milk stand off the ground when hobbled ! I found that using a horse curb strap as a hobble, hooking the buckles to each leg with a double sided clip in the middle to the stand worked well. I was determined & this doe got her AR on 305 day test ( Irish Whisper Charm Bracelet on my web page)....now she's easy to milk....as long as she has her hobbles


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Melissa said:


> I'm also a fan of the udder rub/scratch. doing this from kid or even calf, it showes them that when their udder is touched it's a good thing. but, I don't touch it once the udder starts developing as it may be REALLY sensitive and make them jumpy.
> 
> -Melissa


Good to hear, I was beginning to think we were perverts.


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## Bethany (Jan 9, 2008)

I've had my share of kicky first fresheners as well. Now what was really hard was my first year, when I was just learning to milk. It took about 4 people to hold that goat down and about an hour to milk her out!! It was much easier when I got expert at milking, but there was still a few that by the time I was done there was milk everywhere!!


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## Melissa (Oct 27, 2007)

Feral Nature said:


> Good to hear, I was beginning to think we were perverts.


your lucky I wasn't drinking something or my keyboard would be trashed :rofl

-Melissa


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## Pairaka (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. I've been putting this doe on the milkstand over the weekend and just working with her to get used to it without any negative associations. I haven't tried to milk her beyond maybe one squirt or two (just checking her udder and teats to see how they're developing); mostly I've just been stroking and brushing her and letting her eat her grain and talking quietly to her or just gently rubbing and scratching her udder. Just to let her get used to me. This upcoming weekend will be two weeks since she's kidded; hopefully she'll be a little less jumpy by then. 

It's good to know that I don't have aberrant goats and I'm glad that I have some time to work with my other two FF that I may or may not milk (depending on how well Delphine works out) when they kid. I'll start putting them on the milkstand about three weeks prior to kidding and work with them so that perhaps the experience isn't quite as traumatic.  

Again, thanks for the advice. It is much appreciated. 

-- Wendy


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

I tried foing htis ove rthe weekend, to get them used to beign milked. The lamancha and the alpine took one lesson to learn tht gettign onthe milkstand means food,a dn they seemed to toally ignore the whole thiing as long as there were pellets ont he feedpan. The nubians- man, I love Nubians, but I was redy to bang my head on a brick wall- cause theres no way I can lift them on, they are way too big for me to do it myself. they acted liek they were goign to get butchered mot fed! The oder girls have been milked for the last two years, so she knows whats coming, I dont undestand why she's being such a butthead! Dora )my nicest and most difficult girl) is a FF and i can understand that shes unsure of it, but she is so standoffish just trying this throws her into a panic. Guess I'll have to try to get home early enough and get DH to help. Why, oh why, cant it ever be easy for a change?


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## Karen Bailey (Oct 26, 2007)

My husband says my Nubians do that because I need the exercise!?


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

To get those stubborn first fresheners on the stanchion, sometimes you have to work at it. Most of them will learn what is expected of them after a time or two but you will always have one of those dumb ones that will be a slow learner. Keep on trying, it does get easier. 

To do this the goat must be collared. I lead a first freshener up to the milk stand, place at least one of the does feet on the stand, and pull the goat toward the stanchion head lock. If she resists, a tug on her tail will usually cause her to jump on the stand. If not, with her front feet on the stand, I work her to the side, pulling her head towards the stanchion head lock - showing her the feed. Normally, she will reach through the stanchion head lock to reach the feed and I lock her head in, then I lift her rear end and put it on the stand. 

What is fun - is then trying to get the idiots out of the head lock. They are so afraid of being pushed off of the stand, that you have to use force to pull their heads out of the head lock. 

It is a whole lot easier, to train them to come in and eat on the milk stand when they are kids than to wait until they are 125 plus pounds and fight with them. Bring kids in when they are babies and trim their feet on the stand etc. Let them learn, there are treats (feed) on the stand, this will associate the stand with food!


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## Pairaka (Jan 12, 2008)

This morning I almost didn't put Delphine on the stand (I've got the flu or something and feel awful), but after I let Lenore (the doe I'm still milking) down, Delphine left her bucket and went to the stand and stood there expectantly like she knew she was supposed to get up there. She still didn't just jump up onto the stand; I had to coax her up there, but with not nearly as much force as I've had to previously. And once her front feet were on the stand, she jumped up the rest of the way herself and put her head in the lock herself and went straight to eating. 

I was feeling miserable, so I just brushed her a little, and stroked her udder; she was a little kicky but tolerated it better than she has been. I didn't push it, though. 

Funny thing, though, when I unlocked the headgate, she just stood there eating her grain. She looked back at me while I was sweeping up the grain that my duncehead Lenore had spilled then went back to eating even though nothing was holding her up there. I had to take her collar and give her a tug to get her to jump down off the stand. Puds, both of them.  Gotta love them. 

Amazing how you can feel like crap and just going through the motions can make you feel better. 

-- Wendy


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## Corky (Oct 26, 2007)

I will have no problem getting any of my 4 does on the stand this year.
Three are used to it and the FF has been fed her grain on the stand sense she was old enough to reach it there.
She still spooks about going through the feed room to the milk room.
I better NOT have moved anything from where it was before or she will turn around and run back to the goat area. She runs forward a few feet, stops looks around and runs forward a few more feet till she reaches the milk room door and then she takes a running leap onto the stand.


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## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

Corky said:


> I better NOT have moved anything from where it was before or she will turn around and run back to the goat area.


I have one Nigerian (who I call my Nubian in a Nigie body<G>), who when I moved the milkstand, would go to the old spot every day for a week. She'd walk in a circle around where the stand used to be, crying pitifully. The new spot was in plain sight.....jyust took her a week to figure it out .


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> What is fun - is then trying to get the idiots out of the head lock. They are so afraid of being pushed off of the stand, that you have to use force to pull their heads out of the head lock.


 :rofl We have had some like that- the harder you push the further forward they lean. One doe had her whole brisket pushing onto the feed pan. Two of us pushing backwards, one person jiggling a can of grain behind her, and that darn doe was picking up a leg like she was going to _crawl_ out through the headlock, lol.

I am worried for us this year, the first year that the doelings haven't been on the stanchion since they were little...they haven't been on it at all. Can't wait for them to freshen :sigh


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Good info, Tim! They do stretch to the food, but I was afraid to use the head lock until I had all fours up on the stand for fear of breaking a neck! (hers or mine, I wanst sure )
If you do this sucessfully without that kind of problem then I feel a lot more confident trying it.


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## Melissa (Oct 27, 2007)

In the off season I place my milk stand in the barn with the goats so they can jump on it, lay on it, what ever. Its metal so easy to clean. I also use it to do EVERYTHING like trim hooves, give meds, and give treats. My goats have NO fear of the stand. To them it's just something that gives extra highth.lol. And my goats know where the feed is stored (same area I milk in). I have to be VERY careful about closing the door or they PILE in to eat, look around, make a mess, whatever. lol.

-Melissa


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