# Line breeding " Houston, we have a problem"



## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

If it works its line breeding, if it doesn't its in breeding. Last fall we bred our dairy breed buck back to 3 of his daughters, who's mums were mutt goats. From which we got 3 singletons, 2 bucks and a doe. The 2 bucks seem to be normal, however the doe was born with a pair of extra teats. Apart from the blind teats the doe appeared normal, but now at 6 weeks old is showing clear neurological problems. First she started leaning to one side, then she started walking round in circles, now she is having problems standing up at all.
Is this/could this be a result of the closeness of the line breeding or could it be just coincedence, either way why has it appeared at 6 weeks old and not been obvious from birth?
In the whole scheme of things, is breeding father to daughter too close, as we understood, we could breed father to daughter, the resulting offspring we could not breed back again, we would then need a different buck?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Quentin, it sounds like your doeling has listeriosis which is contagious, to humans too. I'm not sure how it is treated, but I'm sure there is info here on the forum. This would not be congenital.


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## Quail_Hollow (May 28, 2013)

I don't recommend line breeding in mammals. If you read about the history of scrapie, it is clear that the lack of genetic diversity was an issue (as the most successful breeders were breeding "in and in." With chickens, my flock is somewhat inbred because I have a hard time finding chickens for sale in my breed, but chickens don't live long enough to develop prion diseases, since coyotes eventually get them.


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## Quail_Hollow (May 28, 2013)

Plus, I wouldn't want to buy a goat that was the result of father-daughter/mother-son inbreeding, no matter how awesome he/she was.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I do not think the doeling's neurological problems are related to her double teats. Sle likely has either Listeriosis or polio - or her dam may be CAE positive and the kid is showing the encephalatic form of the disease. I once had a doeling born with congential neuro problems, but she had other physical issues and her teats were actually normal. She was a total out cross. A goat could inherit double teats if your buck carries the gene. I have one Nubian buck who will throw that trait and other problems if closely linebred. I once got a freebie goat who was double teated. Her dam was an Alpine and her sire a Nubian, so no line breeding there. I line breed, but rarely ever breed daughter to father. I usually just do half siblings or cousins.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

So lets start with line breeding, we understood that we could breed our buck, for 2 seasons then we would need to use a different buck, eg breed him to mutt goats the first season then breed his daughters back to him the second season, then the 3rd season use another buck, the 4th season we could use the original buck again and then rotate the different bucks each year from then on in. 
When we first heard this, we as novice goat breeders thought breeding daughters back to fathers a little too close and were prepared to buy a second dairy breed buck ( of the same breed but completely different bloodline) to breed with the first bucks daughters the next season ( grading up to 75% ) then the 3rd season go back to the original buck and then use them both alternate years. Eventually grading up our herd to a dairy breed herd. Does this make sense? besides the fact of the expensve of buying transporting housing and feeding another buck, or does anyone have a better idea? 
In our herd at the moment we have 11 50/50 dairy breed / mutt goat does from our buck and 2 75/25 db/mg bucklings born this year as a result of breeding 2 of the bucks daughter back to him last fall. Can anyone her see a combination that might not be to close a line breed without the need buying in a second buck? To add, both bucklings were born singletons.
Now onto listeriosis/ polio after reading up on the net earlier it is our opinion that it is polio that is causing the problems with the doeling with 4 teats. As she in dairy breed circles is a cull anyway, harsh as it may sound is it really worth treating her to get her well only to cull her eg paying for treatment etc, when treated would we feel safe about eating the meat, so logic says to me cull her now and be done with it.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Quail_Hollow, welcome to the forum! Please be sure to fill out the required info in your signature line.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Quentin, For the sick kid, how you deal with her is a matter of preference. Treating her appropriately will more than likely bring her to health, but like you said, if you are going to cull her anyway, now might be the best time. 
As for the inbreeding/breeding decisions, ask two goat breeders and you'll get three answers. LOL Myself, I have used it a few times and it does tend to bring out faults and assets. In your situation, I would wonder what would be better: to line breed and see what genes are swimming in the gene pool or out-cross for a few generations until you find a line that work really well.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Your idea of having two dairy bucks and going back and forth is the way I would go myself. Grandfather granddaughter breeding is less problematic than father daughter.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

As has been noted, if you line breed that close you will bring out the problems there that might otherwise go undetected. I used to breed my rabbits that way, so I could find out faults in the line and at least know they were there, BUT it also brings out the strong points. I've personally had the experience of owning an *outstanding* sheep ram who was the result of the breeder not separating her twin lambs soon enough... the brother bred his twin sister, my ram was the result, and he was a really fabulous line and to this day, years later, people are still looking for that line in their sheep. So it does not all have to end in disaster; you may not get quite that good of a result, but you will no doubt have some pretty good outcomes from this breeding program. All you have to remember is to cull, which is so difficult for so many people. 

I think your breeding plan is fairly sound, and should work, especially considering your situation. I was using this plan myself but have come upon an opportunity to acquire a second buck earlier than anticipated, so I am seizing this opportunity, and delaying breeding father to daughter at this time, and may not do that breeding at all. I feel, personally, like the 2 buck plan (with both bucks coming from similar lines) is a better plan than the 1 buck plan, for my farm and my area. 

As for the doeling, personally... I would not be inclined to treat her, but to end her life quickly and painlessly, since you intend to cull her anyway. I suppose you could treat her and sell her as a pet, if there is a pet market in your area, but that is not, as we say, a financially wise decision as it will likely cost more to treat in time and money than you could get as a pet price. Unless pet goats go for a high price in your area? In my area they do not. Or perhaps you have a lot of money and can afford to make such decisions, which I do not have.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

My best kids this year -- Half-sibling breedings, and grandsire to granddaughter. Those animals you can tell came from a certain herd just by their look? That's what linebreeding does for you. The other side of that is that you simply HAVE to be ruthless in your culling. Linebreeding is a valuable tool in that it can bring forth the weaknesses in your breeding program as well as the strengths.

One of the strongest breedings you can do is to take an excellent son back over his dam. A father-daughter breeding can also be valuable. To quote Harvey Considine, "Linebreeding is the most powerful method known for making the most of the excellence of superior individuals. By this method, the highest possible percentage of the blood of an exceptional individual can be preserved to characterize and entire line of descent. *It is not a method of originating excellence, but of preserving and utilizing it.* Most truly great animals in every breed have been strongly inbred themselves, since closely bred animals are usually prepotent over everything else."

You do not breed two inferior animals together and make something great -- you linebreed EXCELLENT animals together to concentrate those genetics.

I agree with the previous posters - this doeling is suffering from listeriosis or polio. Either way - at this point she has likely either improved or died.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I am not sure how you are figuring singletons are a consequence of linebreeding? Or is it that you think that your dairy bucks line may have more singletons?
It would not be a consequence of linebreeding since the does having the singletons are an outcross of your purchased *brought in* buck to your local *mutt* does. It can't be the (line-bred) singletons fault that it is a singleton. Either the dam is not conceiving or isn't carrying multiples. Are your other does all having multiples? Is your management the same for your *mutt* does as your muttXdairy does? Should it be? Maybe they are needing something more.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks guys for the input, but Im still a little confused, Jaquee you say you think my breeding plan is quite sound what do you mean? breeding daughter back to father? but I then cant breed any does from that line breed back a third time right? I would need another buck right?
As for mentioning singletons I was not suggesting this was from line breeding, I was trying to say that instead of breeding daughters back to father this season could I not use my 75% buckling who is the result of breeding my highest producing does daughter back to her father. He happens to be a singleton so if he was used this season he would not have to breed with a full sibling in my reckoning he would only be breeding with half siblings. Oh I hope this all makes sense.
As well as perpetuate my best herd traits I am also trying to grade up So Instead of breeding my 50% daughters back to thier 100% father ( a very close line breed ) I could breed my 50% daughters to their 75% half sibling still grading up a little but not so close a line breed. then the resulting does would get bred next season to the original 100% buck and then rotate the bucks following that. 
Does this sound like a plausable plan?


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

In my opinion...  YES it does!!  I bred my own linebred buck in a similar way. Took me four years of planning/breeding to achieve him. I wanted to bring in an outcross buck and blend him with a dam line (littermate does) that I love to produce a buck that will blend well with the rest (any) of my does lines. I bred the outcross buck to the littermate does. Got a buckling out of one, a doeling out of the other and then bred those 3/4 brother/sister to produce the buck I want.
Similar to what Tim Pruitt does, breeding an outcross to his herd and keeping a buck kid out of his best doe to use on other does in his herd. 'Something in, something out.' 
It helps to bring in the qualities of the outcross that you want while having something behind him (the dam) that will blend well. The key is to love the doe that you keep the buckling out of.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Then, at last I think we have a plan In place, without the expense of buying another dairy breed buck, and perpetuating the line of my highest producing doe and grading up at the same time. My highest producing doe is of course a local breed goat, her daughter is a 50/50 cross who theoretically should be a better producer than her mother, so then to keep her son to use as a breeding buck in my thoughts is better than keeping a buck from the original mother, ( not that we have any this season ). thanks for all your input guys we will see what happens only, time will tell.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Isn't it fun!


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

It certainly is fun, and keeps us very busy too!


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

The most glamorous does in my herd are very heavily linebred. It wasn't really planned that way but I have outcrossed a few times and then bred those does back to my original buck and I got a few outstanding does with more size and "glamour" than my original does have.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Line breeding seems the way to go, Its a new subject for me though. I come from an English dairy cow farming family, where all use AI and you pick your sire from a brochure. This is a hands on approach, when I discussed a breeding program for our goats with my wife, we thought about buying full blood dairy goats, and not grading up our herd. I was suprised and pleased to hear my wife say "wheres the fun in that, wouldnt you, a few years down the line want to have quality goats, and to say we have them because we bred them like that, all our own achivement ".... she is right.
I do have 1 last topic I would like to discuss and thats culling,
Every body mentions culling heavily at the start, OK that makes perfect sense to me but who do you select to cull what traits dont I want in my herd?
I mentioned using my highest producing does grand son as a sire this season, ok this doe gives alot of milk ( for us ) but she is a really slow milker, not becasuse she has more milk just because she is slow, is that trait likely to be passed along and is this the sort of thing we are culling for for example?








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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Hi Quentin - yes, that is a trait that is passed along. I was at a show recently and talking to one of the top breeders there (she also happens to be among the top in the nation) and made a comment about how long it must take to milk out a particular goat... well, no. They told me they have bred for goats that milk out very quickly. That happened to be important to them, so they selected for that trait, and now all their goats are like that - after breeding them that way for over 40 years.

I know it's easier if people just tell you what to do, but you have to decide for yourself what traits you value most, and then breed for them. Now, at first... it might be pretty basic stuff, like can they give birth, do they get an udder etc. But in the end you will have crafted what in *your* mind is the perfect dairy animal. And then when people see *your* goats at a show, they'll say, "Yes, those goats are phenomenal _______".


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks Jaquee for that piece of info, so if I use the buck Its likely all his offspring will be slow milkers, not what I want at all! I am now seeing that want I want to achieve, in my herd, may well not be ideal for someone else. Like feeding, you do what suits you best, Ive learned on this forum, there is no hard or fast rule its personal preference.
We all have to start somewhere, and I know selective breeding takes many many years, but this season I dont have many options, when it comes to sires. I am on the first rung of the ladder, mainly Im trying at the moment to grade up from local breed to dairy breed goats, which Is going to take a few years yet. So once I have my dairy stock in place, then I suppose I can start fine tuning for those traits that suit my needs best, good job Im still young enough, to hopefully see some results.
From what I have learned, the goat was the first farm animal to be domesticated by man about 8000 years ago, and as a species, human kind has produced some good breeds of goats, but we still want to make what we have, better suit our needs, looks like this is going to be a really long journey :bang


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

You can do it.  I have access to better dairy goats, but I started very humbly. I kept my best bucklings and crossed them to my best doelings. I didn't necessarily use one buck on all my does. I might have one buck for every couple does, cause I picked pairs that would improve each other. Then I'd sell both and keep the babies. So no, I didn't get to see long term, but I saw rapid improvement in basic conformation and udder characteristics. As I made money from sales, I've brought in proven bloodlines. Now I'm to the point of not using so many bucks cause I have a more consistent herd. Don't get too hung up on the "rules". There is more than one way to get improvement.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

You can't really cull until you make clear goals for your herd. And some of your culls might be nice enough, but just not fit your goals. For me, I want the basic stuff like does that kid easily and animals with good feet and legs and other basic good conformation, but also I want does that make a gallon of milk a day without being overly pampered. I have mostly achieved those goals but now I am tweaking the breedings for more show quality conformation. Also, just because the breeding animals I have now meet my goals, doesn't mean that their progeny will always measure up to what I want. It is an on-going process. A long journey as you say...but a fun one!


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Angie when you said you crossed your best bucklings with your best doelings, how do you determine he is a good buckling, or are you saying he comes from an excellent mother/mother with the traits you want to keep in you herd?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Honestly Quentin when I started out the best I could do was pick bucklings that had good conformation traits - I look for strong toplines, an uphill wither, width and depth throughout, etc. and then if his mother has the best udder of my bunch, then awesome - and usually it seems to work out that way for me. The best does have the best looking sons. Now some would say it doesn't matter what he looks like. They might be right, but I think good conformation goes hand in hand with good udders, so I have always liked a nice looking buck. Then if I saw a trait I hated cropping up alot - like for me I hated cow hocks - I sold off everyone with cow hocks. I don't like teats that point to the thighs, so I'm getting rid of does with that feature and keeping does with plumb teats. Over time I stop seeing these traits crop up. At first you need lot's of kids on the ground to choose from. It's really hard to pick and chose like I did if you have very few kids. So at first, you may just have to breed everybody to the best you've got and get some kids on the ground to start looking at. I've spent hours just sitting and looking at my goats and thinking about what I liked and what I didn't like and what pairs to make to get a better kid. Don't get a whole herd of bucks going, but it may be worth it to use 2-3 per season if one buck doesn't seem suited to all the does.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Thnaks Angie for that, Ive been thinking recently that we need to have a few bucks to choose from and mix and match to get the result we want, it makes perfect sense. At the moment I dont have the space to house many bucks at the moment, but we do hope to expand massively when finances are available, so I think my main priority at the moment is to work with what I have and grade my herd up to dairy breed status. Then when I have animals producing the milk yield Im looking for I shloud have the capital to invest in buildings and then we can start to mix and match breedings to start getting the our ideal does.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

perhaps this will help, I think its still written targeting dogs but is valid in all species. 
*BACK CROSSING*;
another type of inbreeding which we equate, to the greatest extent, to the stud dog. In back crossing the breeder selects a stud with as few imperfections as possible and of magnificent type, who potently produces excellent progeny.
Basically what the breeder hopes to accomplish is to infuse the entire breeding line with the genetic qualities of the excellent stud. a good bitch who will correct any of the slight failings the male may have , is bred to him and from the ensuing litter the best FEMALE puppy that in appearance is MOST like the sire is selected , kept & and the proper time bred back to the sire . it is generally advised to keep 2 females in case something drastic occurs that eliminated one of the bitches. the second choice bitch then can be used - again after the bitch is whelped the best bitch puppy that mirrors the sires excellence is saved and bred back to her sire when she reaches maturity, this form of incest is continued again & again until a time arrives when the alpha male can no longer reproduce or until physical or psychological debilities become apparent (IF they do) that make it inexpedient to con tine the experiment.
If seems to have acquired much of his virtues from HIS dam, then the initial breeding should be to HER, if the stud dogs sire seems to have lent his most of his fine traits , then the first breeding should be , if possible,and if she fits the breeders needs - to the SISTER of the males SIRE. BY back crossing the genetic worth is consolidated and the germplasm fashioned to a wanted mold. This conformation that you have wright by back crossing will continue to prevail for several generations after the alpha male can no longer produce, if breeding continues within the confines of the line bred family.

cont

*OUT CROSSING;*

This breeding technique can be considered a counter measure to any kind of line breeding or inbreeding - out cross means that for at LEAST 5 or 6 generations there has been no common ancestry, that no individual app rears more than once in a pedigree.

The only control a breeder can have over a the prodengy of an out cross breeding is if one of the mated pair IS line bred OR inbred, the other partner should be dominant in any needed type or temperament compeations. out cross breeding's generally brings greater vigor and new and needed characteristics to a strain, and usually a lack of prepotency and uniformity in the progeny. It`will help cover up recesses that may be detrimental to the stockthestatement regarding prepotency and uniformity in the progeny doesn't not always follow.

animals of out cross breeding frequently ( not always) indicate a LOWER breeding worth because favorable genetic factors have not been clustered and inheritable material has been dispersed.

perhaps the most important improvement that an out cross breeding can bring to the kennel is its ability to return vitality virility and vigor BACK to a line that may have been weakened due to close breeding's .
Abnormalities congenital ills and abnormalities that have been brought to the surface by line breeding or inbreeding can be arrested corrected or terminated .

*BACK MASSING*

the aggregation of genetic factors of a specific dog, his name appearing numerous times in the extended generations of a pedigree. the first 3 generations of a pedigree are generally the most important, influencing the progeny to a greater extent than later generations. But when those initial generations indicate no close breeding, allowing various genetic factors to consolidate and affect the young, then the influence of the back massed animal will be felt.
back massing can bring merit as well as flaws to a bloodline, but we can only be cognizant of the cause if we search further back in the animals history.

** also used in breeding is

HETEROSIS ( utilized MOSTLY in agricutual fields and in experimental work with fowl & swine.
it is considered it could become a genetic tool to use in Dog breeding if it has a meritorious application.

* years ago my father told me an ASIAN PROVERB when he was teaching me about breeding ...
" the restless see today - the patient see eternity"


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

> *BACK CROSSING*;
> another type of inbreeding which we equate, to the greatest extent, to the stud dog. In back crossing the breeder selects a stud with as few imperfections as possible and of magnificent type, who potently produces excellent progeny.
> Basically what the breeder hopes to accomplish is to infuse the entire breeding line with the genetic qualities of the excellent stud. a good bitch who will correct any of the slight failings the male may have , is bred to him and from the ensuing litter the best FEMALE puppy that in appearance is MOST like the sire is selected , kept & and the proper time bred back to the sire . it is generally advised to keep 2 females in case something drastic occurs that eliminated one of the bitches. the second choice bitch then can be used - again after the bitch is whelped the best bitch puppy that mirrors the sires excellence is saved and bred back to her sire when she reaches maturity, this form of incest is continued again & again until a time arrives when the alpha male can no longer reproduce or until physical or psychological debilities become apparent (IF they do) that make it inexpedient to con tine the experiment.


The bad part is sometimes you don't realize the genetic fault for generations. Like HYPP in horses. Impressive was his own grandaddy haha.

That's too much for me, if I bred a daughter back to her sire and things were okey dokey I'd quit while I was ahead. But I've never been the gambling type.  Great info.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

think the way nature works, a male has a several years over a herd or pack then a male that neighbors gets old enough to challenge the old feller and every few years ideally new genetics get brought in. Line breeding was designed by nature named by humans.
There is not a champion anywhere that doesnt have line breeding somewhere in its history. 
Thousands of healthy amazing QHs have been produced from the Impressive lines, its sad for those that are effected though advancements are made in the care of those effected horses so that its not as bad as it used to be for them.


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