# Concrete vs. sand



## grandmajo (May 22, 2008)

Ok, my hubby and I are having a debate over the flooring in our barn. When he built the part for the goat barn, he had a load of stone brought in. It has settled quite a bit, and we will be needing to build it back up. I'm voting for sand, he thinks that concrete would be better. I'm thinking that concrete would be a bad idea for 2 reasons. 

1) Very cold floors in the winter (we're up in the NW corner of Ohio). I lived in a house once that the foundation was concrete slab. Even with padding and carpet, the floors always felt cold in the winter.

2) No drainage for the urine

Opinions please?


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

My ideal barn floor would be sand over packed gravel. Good drainage, easy to rake clean, and mastitis causing organisms don't live well in sand. You'd have to replace the sand every so often, though. If someone gave me concrete, though, I'd take it. Bed with shavings & straw still in the winter. And given a hot dry spell in the summer, it could be cleaned out, sanitized, let dry... Seems to me the question is how do you want to manage your barn, and how much do you want to spend?


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

I have to deal with Concrete, it requires letting the bedding build up over winter for heat, and then heaven forbid someone get pregnant or sick, or busy working and not have adequate time for spring cleaning of the barn. 
I would rather put down pea gravel, sand, then bedding.


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## icboers (Feb 1, 2009)

I know I don't have many milkers but the flooring that i have in one of my barns is crushed concrete. It looks like gravel,but after a while packs in really good and is easy to rake and keep clean. Does not "sink" like other gravel. We put it about 2 foot deep in one of our barns and it is still there and is still nice. 

Karla


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## grandmajo (May 22, 2008)

Thanks SherrieC, I was hoping someone up in this neck of the woods had concrete floors and would reply. You've pretty much confirmed my concerns over putting in concrete.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

National Mastitis Council has studies that show a greatly reduced incidence of environmental mastitis when goats are bedded on sand rather than hay, straw, shavings, etc.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Love my sand. Also dairy goats spend a great deal more time in barns if you let them, than boers. My boers lived in the woods, slept under the big oaks, kidded out in the under brush  The barn was where the hay was that they only ate if it was really cold or rainy.

I do put shavings and then straw down before kidding, then it's all cleaned out again and the rest of the year it's just sand with a little shavings over it. Vicki


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

Vicki, what kind of shavings do you use?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

They are square compressed bales of kiln dried shavings, so each bail covers about a 5x5 area. We can purchase them in bulk or my feed dealer sells them and since he sells so much it is just over the price of buying in bulk. I have no way anymore of picking it up fresh from the wood mill at the end of the road or I would still use them. Being all pine we never had any problems with the mastitis others talk about when using fresh shavings. Vicki


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## Woadleaf (Oct 17, 2009)

Thanks for this. When we made the stall for the girls in the old barn, we put several inches of fresh sand over the dirt floor. I've been happy with it so far, but didn't know if there would be issues longterm. We're planning on building a new more spacious barn in the next couple of years, and I would like to use sand again.


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## Jo~* (Oct 26, 2007)

This will sound like a dump question but what kind of sand do you all use? Living on the coast I can get all the sand I want but it would be very salty. When I had horses I never used it in a stall for that reason. Horses eating it. As it was I had a mare that would sand colic on me every year. So what kind of sand do you use?


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## chewie (Jul 26, 2008)

this past winter i lost a baby due to the cold concrete. i had let the hay and straw bedding build up, added lots more straw for kidding time, and she still pawed so much that the baby wound up laying on the concrete--it was 14below and baby froze. was the best of the twins too, so i was not pleased. i have a barn that has lousy drainage too, so its plenty of work to keep it clean. i thought i was so lucky when i learned i had this concrete, not so much happy now.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ours is called bank sand, we simply called the guy who hauls pea gravel etc....and asked him for sand. Mine is actually sugar sand and it was a mess in the beginning, I will ask specifically for bank sand next time. Vicki


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## goatmom (Oct 26, 2007)

We have a small barn with a concrete floor that I have griped about since moving here. The floors are cold -require a deep bedding pack for a few months, etc. BUT - this past year I've actually been glad for the concrete as opposed to dirt - due to flooding rains. The barn has flooded so many times but the cleanout is easier and at least the milkers had a place they could stand without mud unlike the other pens with portable houses. 

I think sand with some kind of gravel base would be the way to go. Ginger


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Great discussion and very timely for me since I am in the midst of building a new goat barn and will be filling in the floors next month.

I am curious how deep of gravel and then how deep a layer of sand on top of that any of the experts would recommend?


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

We didnt do any gravel, just straight sand. Probably a good 12-18 inches deep in each doe shelter plus in the areas that get boggy like the runway to the holding pen as our does are basically drylotted.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

We live on sand and have found for the most part its wonderful, except in the spring and fall when it becomes wet out. Our problems with mastitis would come mostly then or winter (frozen sand--more poo on top), so inside I used a bedding pellet, shavings and straw. In the winter I worry the most so straw is used more frequently and changed out more often. 
Tam


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

It probably depends on the soil and drain time you have under it. I have clay with very poor drainage. I would want gravel under the sand to wick moisture away better. Sand when saturated (think of running on the beach where it's easy and you're not sloshing in it) can't be too good, and would probably be smelly if it was urine saturated.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes be sure to get 'sharp' sand. The shapes of each grain keep it from packing and let it drain.
Other sands that are round will be impervious once packed. 
Lee


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## MiaBella Farm (Jul 22, 2008)

In our barn, where the goats live we have bank sand. One of the pens has mortar sand because someone said it drained better than the bank sand...well, that may be...but we are replacing it with the bank sand because it is hard to clean and all the sand goes out with the poop! UGH!


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"Sand when saturated...can't be too good"

I agree that it may not SEEM good, but I dont argue with the documented studies. And remember the whole point of the sand is that it doesnt GET saturated, unlike shavings, etc, liquid drains away.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

See, I've heard folks in my area say otherwise --that w/the clay underneath it can get saturated. That's why I figured gravel under it would be beneficial--better drainage. How is your soil beneath the sand, LeeAnne? You think this is hocus pocus?


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Maybe the clay under it CAN get saturated...but they are not ON the clay, they are up on the sand. 

We have a few inches of sandy loam then clay, like most of the gulf coast.

But when I say the goats are on sand, they are UP on sand. As in we had eight dump truck loads delivered for two 30X14 shelters.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Can I get some more opinions on depth of sand needed ?

-"Probably a good 12-18 inches deep in each doe shelter plus" will not work for me - my barn is going to be 36 by 84 feet and a rough calculations tells me that would be several hundred tons of sand. 


Would 3-4 inches be ok?


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

it probably depends upon what the sand is ON. For us, we were really mucky.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Qvrfullmidwife - My barn is being built on the highest and driest portion of my property where it really never gets muddy - even with the 6 inches of rain we have gotten this last week -- and it is red clay ground. (Getting to it is another story and I am building a gravel road - but the spot where the barn is being build stays pretty dry)


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## catdance62 (Mar 2, 2009)

OUr barn just has a dirt floor, but we need some replacement dirt, so thanks for the ideas


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

Ditto on what and how Vicki uses her sand in barn. A lot of different animals and birds take dirt baths and the sand helps with getting rid of all kinds of pesky bugs and bacteria germs .
I use pine needles that I rake for barn in the winter and I use dried shavings for kidding as the shavings dry the kids fur fast and has good absorption of fluids.

Remember your doe's udder is laying in and on whatever you use all night and your doe's teats are your family milk source :O


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