# A1 vs. A2 milk....avoiding a hijack



## billinohio (Jun 24, 2009)

I enjoyed reading Ellie's thread. I recently read a book that seems to compliment what Ellie is saying. The name of the book is "The Devil in the Milk." Most of the research was done in New Zealand. Cows have 2 different kinds of milk....A1 and A2. The only difference in that on the peptide chain at positin # 67.....one has hitidine and the other has proline.

In epidemiological studies.....in populations that drink mostly the "bad" milk......there is a direct correlation between the average amount of milk consumed and the occurrrence of heart disease and diabetes.
In populations that drink primarily the "good" milk, there is no evidence of increased risk of heart disease or diabetes.
In New Zealand and parts of Australia......one can buy The "good" milk in supermarkets.

Sorry, I do not have time right now to go dig up more details......
Goat milk is ALL GOOD!!!!!

link:
http://www.amazon.com/Devil-Milk-Illness-Health-Politics/dp/1603581022#_

I wonder if anyone can figure out why the North American dairy industry has no educated the public about this??? :sigh


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## Faye Farms (Sep 14, 2009)

The reason why the North American dairy industry has not educated people about this is probably because most commercial american cows are the wrong kind. I have read a bit about this and would love to test my cows. It would be another selling point for me if I could promote having A2 milk.


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

I had this conversation with a gentleman who is really into it. He is purchasing a specific
breed of cow because they produce the A2 milk. If I remember correctly, he said that goat
milk is A2. 

Not sure how many cows do produce the A2, but I am pretty sure the ones he was buying
were milking shorthorns. Also had something to do with the bloodlines and origin of their
genetics. It was waaaaay over my head, but he sure sounded like he knew what he was 
talking about.

Thanks for bringing this up and posting that link. I have been wanting to read more about
it, just haven't had time.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Fascinating. Found this on a website ( http://www.nodpa.com/production_genetics_a1_a2_011110.shtml ) :

Q2. What breeds of dairy cattle typically produce the lowest percentage of A1 milk?

Ranking of breeds based on published research shows that the ranking is as shown below for the six most common dairy breeds from least to most A1 genetics (from least to most for potential BCM7 production with digestion):

BEST
Guernsey
Brown Swiss
Ayrshire, Jersey, Milking Shorthorn (all equal)

WORST
Holstein

Q3. Can individual cows differ from the average for a particular dairy breed?

Yes, individual cows can vary from the average for a given breed. Cows can be genetically tested for beta-casein genetics so you can know more about the potential risks. Testing is costly, averaging about $100-$125 per cow.

Q4. Do species other than cows produce A1 milk?

Humans, goats, and most mammals produce only A2 type beta casein in their milk. All cows were of the A2 beta-casein genetics until the mutation occurred to give us both A1 and A2 types.


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

I read that link that you posted. Nowhere does it say that these cows in this ranking
"actually produce" the A2 milk. It states that they have a higher percentage of the
A2 genes. Which technically doesn't mean squat if they aren't producing the A2 milk.
Interesting the roundabout way they used to make you think that their cows (and
the ones on the list) were A2. 

The gentleman I spoke to was actually having the cows and the milk tested to be
sure they were A2. (Apparently he has much more money than most of us can spend)

I, for one, will stick with goat milk.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

This was a topic on Nubian Talk, I was going to ask someone to read all the links on there and put the links and their thoughts together for our goatkeeping 101...anyone game? Vicki


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I didn't get that from the list at all, Michele. What I got from it is that those breeds, in that order, are more likely to produce A2 milk. It would have nothing to do with any individual cow, just that a Guernsey, say, is more likely, statistically, to be an A2 producer than a Jersey, and both are more like to be A2 producers than a Holstein.


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

I'm still not sure how helpful that would be. That is like saying my (insert breed)
of goat is "more likely" to produce chocolate milk than your (insert breed) goat.
They should have just come out and said that unless the cow(s) and milk are
actually tested, you don't know if it is A1 or A2. 

Perhaps you read it differently, but what I got out of the whole thing was that
some cows "might" have A2 milk, but we don't know for sure. And the single
sentence at the bottom about the fact that goats DO have A2 milk was kind of
buried. 

Not trying to be argumentative. Just would like some more definitive proof.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I get that some cows "do" have A2 milk, but without testing, you can't know which ones, though you're more likely to get that result if you have a Guernsey than a Holstein. Not that it matters to me one way or another, as I don't have any cows nor am I likely to get any. It was really more of a comment on the fact that you said that you were pretty sure he was getting Shorthorns, and since they made the "more likely" end of the list, that made sense. That the article doesn't say much about goats is not surprising, as it is posted on a cattle dairy website.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

In the nubian talk info they said it was a simple test to test for these? Milk or blood? Sure would be a marketing feature in goats. Vicki


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## Faye Farms (Sep 14, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> In the nubian talk info they said it was a simple test to test for these? Milk or blood? Sure would be a marketing feature in goats. Vicki


To test cows you are supposed to pull some hairs out of the tail switch, making sure the hair follicle is intact.

From what I read, and understand. With the Ayrshire, Jersey and Shorthorn you have about a 50/50 chance of having an A2 cow. For the Brown Swiss that chance is higher and for the Guernsey that chance is higher yet.

I'm going to have to look up my sources again and read. I could of sworn I saw testing that was around $25. I know for the longest time this testing wasn't available in the US but a lab here recently got the rights to run it.


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## Jo~* (Oct 26, 2007)

We have a large dairy near hear that are testing all their cows for that.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

That would explain (and I will be giving that info to my Doc) why I never have health (cardio) issue when I am drinking goat milk, but have chest pains and even had a heart attack when drinking store bought cows milk (dried up my girls too soon, so i was without GM for MONTHS! It was AWFUL!)


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

:crazy Heads up -- there may or may not be anything to this. Some years ago there was a guy from New Zealand on one of the sheep dairy lists with too much money and not a lot of sense, who started promoting this theory before anything had been shown to be true. Some of us on that list kept asking him for the studies that showed this was true, and he couldn't provide them -- just a lot of smoke and mirrors. He also sounded like he was ready to prey on people with autistic kids, suggesting that this special type of milk from selected animals would help them. It sounded like he was plucking these ideas out of thin air. Again, we couldn't get him to give us any solid information -- lots of promises, no solid research or published papers. :/

That doesn't mean it isn't true - - however, it could also be false. And when people start putting a lot of money and time into promoting something to make a big profit, you have to stop and ask WHY. :/

The only truth I could see was that he and his investors thought they could make a lot of money of they cornered the "special milk" market. They hadn't a clue what they were talking about, and I thought that was unethical -- to sell a story without having any evidence that it was true. 

I'd wait and see if the National Institute for Health has any info on this -- maybe in their biochemistry section or maybe under alternative medicine research (sorry, I don't have time to look it up, but you can try a search at NIH.gov yourself).

When serious scientists did serious studies about vitamin D supplements, suggesting that many people are not getting enough in their diet or their vitamin pill, that information was publicly available, openly discussed by scientists, and very quickly had the attention of many (not all) doctors. Very quickly. This milk type A1 vs. A2 idea has been around for some years and there have been no solid studies or discussions among medical people, but, lots of speculation by investors who want to corner the market on special milk sales. I smell a rat. I could be wrong, but I am skeptical. I'm not from Missouri, but I'd like someone to show me the evidence first. 

There are LOTS of things in our mass-produced food that are not healthy. Someone mentioned (on this list, or somewhere else?) that there is a chemical used for bleaching flour (the flour you buy in the supermarket, or is used to make bread -- that flour) which is also used in diabetes research to induce diabetes in rats (just the chemical itself, not the flour :sigh). If you do a study on the affect of milk type A1 or A2 on diabetes and heart disease on a population, you also need to account for things like smoking and consumption of white flour from commercial mills. And a lot of OTHER factors.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. :sigh

Keep an eye on this, but don't go selling your favorite goat because she might not have the "right" genetics, OK? 

(Sorry I get really grumpy about extraordinary claims and no solid evidence)

So I am going to go off and drink my raw milk from contented sheep who eat a variety of grasses and herbs outside my farmstead door . . . . (and I really DO feel better when I do that).


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Faye Farms said:


> From what I read, and understand. With the Ayrshire, Jersey and Shorthorn you have about a 50/50 chance of having an A2 cow. For the Brown Swiss that chance is higher and for the Guernsey that chance is higher yet.


What the breeds mentioned (Ayrshire, Jersey, Shorthorn, Brown Swiss and Guernsey) have in common is that they are better able to make milk from grazing than a Holstein. They are less "fussy" eaters. They tend to have higher butterfat percentage in their milk -- and fat carries a lot of vitamins in it. (This is true in sheep, too BTW.)

The more common, and currently more profitable Holstein tends to be very inbred for high volumes, less butterfat, and need a lot of TLC and special diets to make the phenomenal amounts of milk they do.

What you get from grass-fed animals is more vitamins, omega-fatty acids and unknown (and not-yet-researched) factors in the milk. The gene may just be a marker for animals that are still able to produce milk while just grazing. The benefits may be from the higher omega-fatty acids and/or vitamins in the milk of grazers.

That's MY theory - if someone wanted to give me a few million dollars for research, I could prove it. 

Actually, there are a lot of small studies that have verified some of the information - -just not ALL of the information.

Chris


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

I just thought of something else.

I have heard that store-bought cow's milk is totally skimmed - -all butterfat removed -- and then butterfat is added back in to make your standard 5%, 3% 2% etc. milk. I've even heard that the cheaper brands of store-bought milk are made with reconstituted powdered milk (easier to store in the warehouses, I guess?). I go to Wallmart and we can buy six or seven different brands of milk.

What does all that processing do to milk? 

I've milked a sheep with ordinary milking parlor attention to cleanliness, left it in the refrigerator for two weeks, and it is still clean and sweet and nourishing. If left out on the counter, it would sour into a nutritious dairy product (curds and whey or buttermilk-type of product). BUT, store-bought milk goes "bad" -- really bad --- in days (in the refrigerator!).

I'm not sure that store-bought milk is milk anymore.

Chris


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Holsteins still produce milk while grazing only- just not in amts needed for commercial dairy production.
Just like a high powered Swiss breed dairy goat will still produce on just graze but will increase out put with intensive management. They have the genetic POTENTIAL to put out great amts of milk but getting them to do so is management.


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

Testing is now available in the US. I believe UC Davis is testing cows. It costs around $25-$35 a cow.
Each cow carries two genes, so they can be A1/A2, A1/A1 or A2/A2.
The breeds listed have had less breeding in of the mutated genetics, unlike the Holstein breed.
The lower listed breeds, tend to have more open herd books and more crossbreeding with genes from the Holstein breeds and the like, especially in the United States, where production (not components) was king for many years.
With component pricing back into play, it has brought back the other breeds that produce a richer milk, but less of it.

The test requires 30 tail hairs with the follicle attached and is pretty quick.
The Dexter breed put a lot of work into getting the testing brought to the States and a number of that breed are tested already.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Roseanna- interesting you mentioned Dexters- I have some. What have they found so far on them, if you dont mind me asking? Also have a Jersey bull, am hoping for a cross bred heifer next year to raise as a dairy cow. In a couple of years I wont need to pasteurize if all goes well- just feed the cows milk to the kids and the goats milk to the calf and us. Thats my current thoughts on it anyway.


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

From those who I have seen posting, the majority are A2/A2, but I have not seen a lot of information shared about the testing.
There is a thread or two over on HT (HomesteadingToday) in the Cattle section about the testing and the Dexters role, along with even more threads on Keeping A Family Cow www.real-food.com (then go to Discussion Forum) about A2 testing.


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## billinohio (Jun 24, 2009)

Squires said:


> :crazy Heads up -- there may or may not be anything to this. Some years ago there was a guy from New Zealand on one of the sheep dairy lists with too much money and not a lot of sense, who started promoting this theory before anything had been shown to be true. Some of us on that list kept asking him for the studies that showed this was true, and he couldn't provide them -- just a lot of smoke and mirrors. He also sounded like he was ready to prey on people with autistic kids, suggesting that this special type of milk from selected animals would help them. It sounded like he was plucking these ideas out of thin air. Again, we couldn't get him to give us any solid information -- lots of promises, no solid research or published papers. :/
> 
> That doesn't mean it isn't true - - however, it could also be false. And when people start putting a lot of money and time into promoting something to make a big profit, you have to stop and ask WHY. :/
> 
> ...


There will probably never be a definitive study done on this. The "Gold Standard" would be a double blind study.....wjhere even the researchers do not know which milk is being consumed. It would also have to be a long-term study....

The logistics involved in making sure that 2 groups of people consume only one kind of milk.......and trying to make sure that they dol not consume any products (e.g. a hot judge sundae in restaurant)......the entire project would just not be manageable.

IMO, the strongest evidence come from the epidemiological studies of populations that drink primarily the different kinds of milk.

Do you really think that NIH is immune from the inflnece of lobbyists???.......if the lobbyists call, and have Sneators and Reps call.....and say this "study" could destroy the dairy industry in the US!!!....plus therre are more pressing problems that need to be addressed.

I will not be holding my breath waiting for NIH to look at this. :shrug:


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

billinohio said:


> Do you really think that NIH is immune from the inflnece of lobbyists???.......if the lobbyists call, and have Sneators and Reps call.....and say this "study" could destroy the dairy industry in the US!!!....plus therre are more pressing problems that need to be addressed.
> 
> I will not be holding my breath waiting for NIH to look at this. :shrug:


Bill,
do you really believe that the New Zealand government and their subsidized research and businesses -- are any better than our government? The New Zealand government has invested huge amounts of research and infrastructure for mega-sized dairies that produce milk that they can not sell. They are a small country located in a very remote part of the world -- something like a 16 hour plane ride from anywhere -- and desperately need to market their surplus dairy products. I suspect they would do ANYTHING to market their milk. :/

And not just the milk -- semen, embryos, "experts" and speakers, advertising gurus. :/

One or two or five epidemealogical studies don't impress me. :nooo Try a few dozen studies - such as was done with folic acid 20 years ago or vitamin D these past five years or so. Studies that can be repeated in other populations, compared, and get similar results no matter where in the world they are done. Could even be done by looking at existing data from other studies done in the past if you could find out what type of milk people tended to drink in those areas. For instance, in many European countries, people still drink milk from a variety of heritage breeds of cattle, goats and sheep and they have excellent records as to who drinks what and where. :yes

I don't see the New Zealand Government and its own heavily subsidized corporate behemoths as being any kinder, gentler or more honest than our own. I would be highly cautious about this until there is more open discussion about the A1 vs. A2 milk. Awful things happen when Big medicine and Big marketing link hands together. :deadhorse
Chris


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