# 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain (hypocalcemia problems).



## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

My La Mancha FF who is due April 23 is very sick. She has been on 3 lb of alfalfa pellets a day and slowly moved up to 1lb of grain in the the last couple of weeks. She finally went off of feed and I thought it could be hypocalcemia so was treating for that. Still no improvement and not eating hardly at all. The size of her stomach (the kids) have shrunk considerably the last two days so I assuming the kids are dead. I finally called this morning after seeing no improvement. This vet is highly regarded in the area for goats. She basically said I am killing/killed my goat because that is waaay to much grain. Her rumen is shot. Gave a name for it but don't remember what it is. She said basically she is dying and if I am aggressive I may be able to save her but we don't know. She suggested Penicillin IM, banamine IM, no alfalfa, no grain, only grass hay. But she said it may be way too late to save her since she has been sick for more than a few days now. She has a low grade fever and is pretty sure the kids are probably dead or will die. She said if I see any signs of discharge to go in and get them. I may very well still lose the doe anyway. She said 1lb of grain a day was way to much. She has a low grade fever as of last night.

The problem is this: I am brand new to goats. I just delivered my second kid ever last month. She gave me all kinds of warnings for the penicillin IM injection. The exact place to give it, don't ruin the muscle, don't hit a blood vessel or she will die immediately. I don't know how to do all this! If I see any signs of discharge go in and get the kids out. I have seen mucus all week off and on. Do I go in? I have never even done that before. How do I know if the cervix is dilated? She said she may be to weak to even go into labor so I would need to probably do everything myself. She said the best thing to happen for her would be to abort the kids so she can try and heal. Even then she may not make it. La Mancha's are very hard to find in my area and I paid a lot of money for her and am very attached to her. Now it sounds like she may not make it. The vet could not come out today because she was headed to an emergency call for a horse that was an hour away. I asked if she recommended any other goat vet in the area but she said there really isn't any other competent ones (which I agree with). Man, I was just following what I have always read to feed, didn't know I was killing them. 

Any thoughts? Anyone deal with this before?


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

I'm sorry but whatever is wrong with your goat its not what your feeding! standard protocol here is working up to a pound of grain, maybe more so their eating their milking ration when they kid. I've always done it and I'm not the only one. The AP is just ground up hay..I've fed it as the only roughage as well. Your probably dealing with ketosis now..How were you treating the hypocalcimia?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

Mishael is right and the vet is wrong regarding feed however I would take her off the grain for right now and get her back up. Is she on her feet?? and what exactly is her temp?
CMPK injectable is the fastest acting for hypocalcimia is she chewing her cud is she ruminating?? Is she drinking pleanty of water?? if not she probably is dehydrated and needs lactated ringers. ASAP


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## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

Yes she is up on her feet, even pushing the other goats away from the feed but she won't eat it. But mostly just standing there looking uncomfortable. I can't get the injectable CMPK (or even the oral) from this vet because she is convinced that isn't the issue. Other vets don't do goats. I am using the oral. I have been nutridrenching her too. I saw her chew a bit of cud last night, need to go out and watch her for a bit this morning. Not drinking plenty of water. I don't have lactated ringers and this vet is out all day. Anything I can give her orally to help with the dehydration?

Any thoughts on what to do about the kids? Don't know if they are dead or alive. Just leave that situation alone for now?


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

Tiffany, where are you located?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

OK if she is up that is a GOOD thing. put koolaid or gator aid in her water I personally would lay off the nutradrench and give her the oral cmpk 30 cc twice a day. I personally would leave the kids alone if she is up and walking around. put some salt on her tongue so she is thristy. what are you using for cmpk ?? put some baking soda out so she can take some if she wants to. But don't force it down her. What is her temp? Yes please give us a location and put it in your signature line


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## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

I am in Bend Oregon. We are giving her the "grocery store" version of CMPK. She has baking soda free choice. She was even butting the other goats out of the way and ate a few handfuls of grass hay but not enthusiastic about it. Is not looking weak or shaky at all. I will go take her temp. now and report back. Last night it was 102.8.

When I weight taped her last weekend she was 150, this morning she was 115! She has visibly lost weight this week not eating as much. I bought a bale of alfalfa a few days ago to try and spark her appetite but didn't do much.


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## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

Temp. is 102.6. Pooped on the milkstand, looked normal.


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## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

So, my thought is does she have hypocalcemia? Has been eating less, lost weight, doesn't want grain, picking at her hay. But, she has been like this for seven days now. No loss in temp. (has been consistently between 102.5-102.8), not weak, wobbly, shaky. Udder has been getting bigger. But "baby belly" looks smaller. Now last night the temp. was 102.8 and this morning 102.6? Is that anything significant or normal?

The vet I talked to this morning said she had a low grade fever when I told her the temp. was 102.8 (last nights temp.) I thought this was within fairly normal? Am I incorrect?

Don't know why that smiley face is in the middle of my post, didn't put it there! But should read 102.5 to 102.8


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

you are correct that is withing the normal range so nope don't believe she has a low grade fever. Do you have any beet pulp?? Black oil sunflower seeds? a cedar tree somewhere? even oatmeal regular kind not instant. Try intising her with any of these things to eat something. Corn chips is also something they like (not too many of those tho) and branch of cedar usually is a good thing. parsley, a leaf of comphey. willow branch course you may not have them greened up yet. Keep her hydrated anyway possible and only offer her a tad of grain 1 cup morning and eve but hopefully alfalfa etc will be her mainstay once she starts eating again.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

When you say grocery store are you using Sue Reith's recipe and all the ingredients there?


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## old dominion (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

With no reduction in temperature and the alfalfa pellets she has been eating I think you are dealing with Ketosis. Has your doe had any swelling in the rear legs or was she in "good" flesh prior to her going off feed. There is a big difference between being fit and pregnant and large because of fat and pregnancy.

Take a look at these links:

http://www.fiascofarm.com/goats/milkfever.htm

http://www.fiascofarm.com/goats/ketosis.htm

If you have grass hay or clean straw make it available to her with fresh water.

Also, do you have any poly glycol?

http://www.fiascofarm.com/goats/medications-2.htm#pg

You can pick it up at any farm store. Until you can get some try making some magic mix

1 part Molasses
1 part Corn Oil
2 parts Karo Syrup

Jolene


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

You probably need to get this goat to a vet with some "sense". An IV would help her tremendously, then keep her on CMPK. If she's still putting milk in that udder, that's good. Could be her belly looks smaller because the kids have turned in a different position. Try gatorage or apple cider vinegar in her water to encourage her to drink. Too much of propylene glycol can cause them not to want to eat, really can kill their appetite. Are you sure of her breeding date? If this is a classic case of Ketosis, you may want to make a decision on which is more important - saving the doe, or the kids. If the doe is more important to you, then you could induce labor to help her try to recover.


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## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

Thanks all for your help and suggestions. No this doe is not fat at all. She is a slim girl, no swelling in the legs. I do have some beet pulp and BOSS. No cedar trees and the willows haven't budded out yet. She was at the breeders for two weeks so we could be off by that time frame (150 days would be April 28 so two weeks earlier would be April 16) but breeder said the April 28 due date was when she was bred so I am have no reason to doubt it. Since she is not 100% off of feed yet I will CMPK, vit. B complex, probios, gatorade in water, try to stimulate her appetite with other feeds. If I don't see an improvement in the next day or so or if she gets worse I will take her someplace else. Does this sound good? Sould I give the Vit. B each day?


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## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

Oh and yes, I am using Sue Reith's recipe.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

ok I would not give prop glycol read ARticles on pg 3 Goat 101 by Sue Rieth on Ketosis and also those on Hypocalcimia Keep up the recipe for cmpk give her more than what you have been, 3 cc B Complex twice a day probios


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

Think I'll watch these old timers try to help you as far as meds, and what is wrong with her.........but for my 2 cents worth about the info that your vet give you about killing your doe with that 3 to 1 ratio that you've been feeding is B.S. , and that ain't baking soda if you know what I mean..........we, and I mean a bunch of us would be out back burrying our goats right now if that was the case.
I do however like the plenty of good grass hay right now, and plenty of fresh water too. Don't think I would tinker around trying to abort those kids right now if she were mine. If I were to abort every time that I had a pregnant doe to go off feed (with no temp, and no serious discharge) I would probably never raise a kid here.

Best wishes with your doe,

Whim


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## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

Thanks Sondra! So, 3cc Vit B twice a day or probios 2x a day? Just want to be sure here.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

If all else fails here......try giving her some raw goat milk at room temp.....in a bowl.

I let you decide whether or not you want to heat treat it first (CAE). Not too much at first if she's drinking it.....maybe start with a cup now.....then maybe another cup in an hour or two. .....maybe then two cups again about 3 hours after that.

If you are getting at the point where you are at witts end.......then try this.

Whim


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## sagerat (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

Hi Farm mom, 
I am in Central Oregon also. I had a 2 yr old FF Lamancha last year go off her feed and do exactly what your doe is doing. She had been eating 3 lbs of pellets and a 1 lb of grain too before she went off feed. We ended up giving her the homemade CMPK twice a day, B complex shots twice a day and probios. She would eat a little hay and nothing else. No fever. She wouldn't drink anything no matter what we tempted her with so we ended up going out several times a day and drenching her with water. She also looked like she'd shrunk and I thought her kids were dead. We did this for two weeks and she ended up delivering one huge very much alive buckling and she was fine. Started eating normal as soon as she kidded.

This year we had all our does on the same feed of 3 lbs alfalfa pellets and 1 lb grain and none had problems.

jo


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## baileybunch (Oct 26, 2007)

* 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain (hypocalcemia problems)*

I was going to share similar to what Jo did. My doe went off her feed during the last two weeks of her pregnancy. I was so worried and monitored her constantly. Took her temp daily, always normal. She didn't want her grain or alfalfa pellets but ate plenty of good grass hay. I drenched her CMPK Orally at 30 cc mixed with 30 cc warm water and a spoonful of molasses twice a day. She thought it a great treat! I continiued with that until after she kidded...at day 155! She had three kids, each over 8 lbs. Perfect and healthy. She quickly returned to her grain and alfalfa pellets and is happy, healthy and...a bag of bones! Going off her normal ration did cause her to lose weight and everything shifted as the kids moved into position. Her topline became very bony the last week, she was all sunken in and drawn down.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids*

You are surrounded by some top herds, what vets do they use? Maybe join the district list for your area on yahoo.com or join the local goat club listed on the adga.org website and ask them what vet they use. That vet is an idiot.

But you can't change management and expect your does to turn into our does in a short amount of time. Nutrition is cumulative, it does not happen overnight. Also if you are in the Pacific northwest and you don't copper bolus per saanendoah.com than you can feed 6 pounds of alfalfa pellets and the girls will still not be able to absorb their calcium to no have hypocalcemia.

Jolene, I hate that majic stuff. Why would you want to drench your girls with oil and smoother rumen bacteria just when they are ill and need al the rumen bacteria they have to feed the bacteria in their intestine that promotes their immune function. That whole majic thing makes no sense. Also nurtadrench...it's propolyne glycol with minerals. Minerals that are dosed so low that it takes an ounce daily to even meet a does need for C let alone any other vitamin. Fluff  vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

yep 3 cc BComplex 2 x a day that is total 6 cc and probios also 2 x a day and cmpk 2 x day. personally now that she has been off grain I wouldn't even try to give her grain until she is back to eating hay and alfalfa pellets good then gradually introduce her to grain


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## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

Really interesting to both posts about there does going off feed too. Sagerat, that is EXACTLY what this girl is doing. Strange. I did just copper boluse this last weekend. Should have done it sooner but I just learned about it. This girl has been on this diet since October when we purchased her but she was on only grass hay since birth at her old place.

Vicki, the funny thing is this vet was recommended to me by a couple of goat breeders. The Central Oregon Goat Association had a lecture about a month ago at the college and she was the speaker. When I was on the phone with her it was like she was just mad at me for feeding this goat like this. Treating me like I was ridiculous. I got off the phone just bawling convinced I had killed my goat by giving her 1 lb of grain a day. She said she has 120 goats and had never had this issue (I believe she raises meat goats) Said she feeds .3 lb at night and .6 lb in the morning when they are raising young. I asked her about how much grain she thinks I should be feeding my milker who is giving 13 lbs a day. She told me no more than 1lb and certainly never, ever lbs. of grain. I can't imagine she would be giving me 13 lbs a day without the grain I am giving her. It has just made me mad all day. If I didn't have this forum I would be giving Penicillin (even though she has no fever), banamine, and going inside trying to pull out kids, per her instructions and waiting for my goat to die.

Looks like I am going to have to ask around for a different vet.

Thanks everyone, I'll let you know how it goes.

_*edited by BlissBerry - language_


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

You're certainly getting a lot of good advice here. Only thing I'd like to add is that I think your vet is an extremely arrogant and uncaring individual and if possible, (and I know goat vets are hard to find) I'd get another one as soon as possible. Everyone has to start somewhere. No one starts out knowing how to give a shot or anything else for that matter. Who better to teach you than a vet? For her to be so callus about her information was very insensitive in my book. I also feed about the same things, same amounts, as you. No dead goats here! We had a few problems with two does right after kidding, and I think I've learned how to hopefully avoid those problems in the future, thanks to folks on this forum. I wish you all the luck in the world.
God Bless.
Anita


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Can you try to contact Kat Drovdahl? Very nice, very knowledgable, and has nice show Toggs and LaManchas that are pretty good in the milk pail. http://lamanchas.tripod.com/ If that doesn't work, she is Fir Meadows on Google.

She should be able to refer you to a good vet.

And meat goats and Dairy goats are very very different in their needs. Same in medications (although Boers have slower metabolisms and don't always require as much in the med dept, but I digress), same feet, same wormers, etc. but if I fed my Dairy goats (with their milk production) like a Boer, they'd be dead.
And if I fed my Boers like a Dairy goat, they'd be fat! And their kids would be just huge too.

I think that is why you need to find someone who has animals similar to what you own (high producers?) and in the same geographical area that has animals that you admire and ask lots of questions. It's nice, because they can turn you on to good local minerals etc.

Drenching like Susie (Bailey Bunch) suggests makes good sense. You cover your calcium base and provide energy.
Sometimes we mix the MFO/CMPK with some gatorade as well as the molasses. (The gatorade keeps the MFO/CMPK oral from being so caustic.) After about a week of this with a Boer doe we had, she started eating more and perking up in her energy and went on to kid just great. She still looked skinny on her spine until 2 months after her kids were weaned, but Shamrock looks like a million bucks now and is going to some shows this Spring!

The other thing we did was put Shamrock in a pen with some 5 month old Dairy kids. A little competition but no one to push her around or even have to expend too much energy to assert her dominance. When we poured the alfalfa pellets in the trough, she made sure she was at the trough eating first! (the first 2-3 days not so much, but as she started feeling better she sure did).

Good luck, and don't give up! Camille


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2008)

Tiff......I normally don't knock a vet just because they are a little ignorant when dealing with a goat.......but this one (and I don't care who recommends her) is inept. I really question her methods of making a proper diagnosis on anything now, and to give you what she did as the cause of the problem was even worse. On top of that , to give you the prognosis that she did was the worst.........at the very least, I expect a doctor to have a little bit of faith about them, even if it's to the very end.

Think we have found another vet that Bubba is kin to here. 

I'm sorry to vent on here like this......I'm usually happy go lucky, But after working for a very good (dog) vet for a few years, it burns me up to see one do/say something stupid as this......and on top of that, try to put the blame on you for using a feeding practice that very, if not most common with a large majority of goat owners. :fire I was looking for one with smoke coming out the ears, but that one will do.

Please, keep coming back and keep us posted on how your goat is doing.....and don't you dare give in, or give up too quick.

:fire :fire :fire .....Whim


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Even without food the doe is using water so be sure to keep her hydrated.
She will recover far more quickly if she does not have to battle dehydration as well.
If she is not drinking normally- and i mean taking several big pulls at fresh water you need to get a turkey baster and fill the bottom with water and syringe this down her throat as often as you can stand to do it. At least every 2 hours-body temp water each time.
All the treatments in the world will not work without water for carrying off the waste she and her kids are producing. 

It was very unprofessional of this person to tell you 'her rumen is shot' there is no way for her to know that. You can revitalize her digestion but it will take dedication and patience.

Lee


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

my thoughts exactly and doing this over the ph not seeing the goat is dumb.


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## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

Thanks all! Ya, it was a really weird situation with the vet. I felt like a child. She told me flat out "you have basically killed your goat and now she is dying because you fed her way too much grain." Oh well, at least now I know better. I will not give up on this doe. Will definitely work on the hydration. I have not seen her drinking much but I can't be out there all the time to watch her. I will just give her the turkey baster of warm water with gatorade anyway. Not like the extra water will hurt her, right? Going out now to give her another treatment before bed. She did eat some hay when I went out to feed earlier this evening so at least she is still getting something in her.

Camille, I do know Kat but she lives about 3 1/2 hours from me so whatever goat vet she uses would not work for me. I know she is new to Oregon as well so probably doesn't know anyone in my neck of the woods. I have e-mailed another goat person that I highly respect to see who she uses. Am just starting to get to know her and she has lovely goats so is at least someone I can bounce ideas off of. 

I just wanted to say it is so wonderful and amazing to have all of you. I have learned more here in just a few months that would take me years on my own. Thank you to all of you for helping to save my dear goat Ginger! She is my very favorite goat and I am putting everything I can into her.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I wouldn't rule out the wonderful goat vet that is three hours away. If you can get someone to refer you, and explain the problems you are having with your local vet you may be able to get her to write out a script for meds such as injectable CMPK, etc. The way it works for me is that I have Jeffers fax my request to the vet, and she signs it. A good diagnosis is essential, and it won't help for true emergencies, accidents, etc. but this has worked for me here with a very nice, very understanding vet. They do expect us to do most of our own vetting with the farm animals.
I know this sounds weird, but my second doe freshened and ended up with a uterine infection and did not want to eat or drink, I had brought her inside with me to give her her meds. several times (she follows me everywhere) and she quickly learned where the bathroom was and without fail, would drink the toilet dry every time she followed me inside. I have no idea why or what it was she liked about the JOHN, but looking back, I think that extra water really helped her get better. .....(By the way, I got good advice from the vet over the phone, and doe is doing GREAT now.)


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2008)

buckrun said:


> Even without food the doe is using water so be sure to keep her hydrated.
> She will recover far more quickly if she does not have to battle dehydration as well.
> If she is not drinking normally- and i mean taking several big pulls at fresh water you need to get a turkey baster and fill the bottom with water and syringe this down her throat as often as you can stand to do it. At least every 2 hours-body temp water each time
> Lee


I agree that if the doe is not drinking she needs fluids. However, using a turkey baster and forcing water into your does' mouth is NOT going to keep her hydrated nor rehydrate her. Not only is this method ineffective but it can be dangerous if not done properly. You really don't want to deal with aspiration pneumonia on top of everything else this doe has going on.

Please use IV fluids (SQ) to keep your doe hydrated and to rehydrate her if necessary.

Good luck,
Sara


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

you can get lactated ringer very inexspensive from Jeffers or some of the other animal sales just do a search.


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## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

I will order lactated ringer today. Good to have on hand anyway. How much should I give her and how often? I am going to be looking into a different vet today. I would like to at least have the injectable CMPK since it would be more effective.


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

I also agree that the "too much grain" is nonsense...mine get more than that. I would consider 102.8 to be a normal temp for an adult doe.

Just a thought on her shrinking...if you are using a weight tape, it's probably somewhat inaccurate as far as actual pounds go because it measures by inches around the heartgirth. 

If she's not eating, her belly will shrink and that may have nothing to do with fat/muscle she has and how many kids she's carrying. I'm sure she has lost weight but I doubt the weight tape is 100% accurate as to how much. 

Also, dead kids are similar in size to live kids so I would not assume the kids are dead because she has shrunk either.

Pregnant does can be picky, I have also had some that go off feed for a little while, than get better, etc. It's always safer to err on the side of caution though.


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## Nancy (Oct 25, 2007)

I would try the glycol. We had a doe for 2 weeks before kidding that quit eating and her legs did swell. It was the only thing that saved her. Had a friend who lost her doe because she treated with calcium but she actually was in ketosis, had another one this year but saved her and neither had swelling or anything. Did you smell her breath? Sometimes it will smell really sweet if they have ketosis. I agree with everyone else, get another vet. We feed ours much more grain and have never had a problem. Only problem was the 1st year we had goats and the doe had the ketosis but she was overly fat. About killed her with kindness because we didn't know better.Hope she gets better soon.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

you can get ketone strips and test her unine for ketosis also.


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## farm mom (Feb 25, 2008)

She is doing very well today. Loves her homemade CMPK! Is drinking well, eating her hay better and tried to dive into the grain that was left on the milkstand when I brought her in for treatment today. I will continue on with treatment until I see her completely back to normal. I'll update in a few days but she is looking real good for right now. Thank you to all of you, I can't express that enough!


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2008)

:biggrin Great news......and you most likely still gonna have some baby's......"It ain't over 'til it's over. Yogi B."



Whim


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Thats great news!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Good


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