# Government Systems and Consequences of SARS-CoV-19



## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Brought over to expound on a subject not acceptable to the original forum.

Someone might as well use this software for something.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

Hi!
It’s sad to see this site so..lost...kinda nice to be able to say whatever you want...


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

Ahh! Now I can type! Which of the forums do you prefer, friends?


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

CaramelKitty said:


> Hi!
> It's sad to see this site so..lost...kinda nice to be able to say whatever you want...


We could bring it back to life if we wanted. There's some good information here but, a lot is missing like about 10 years worth. Watching goatspot remake the same mistakes is painful lol.

My first question is WHY is this different? We've had many outbreak diseases, some of them way more severe than this one. Are the PTB trying to see how many countries are under control?
There's never been any other scenario that involved locking the whole world in their apartments. There's something seriously wrong with this.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

This is the first time in history that Mecca is shut down. 
https://time.com/5791427/saudi-arabia-hajj-mecca-coronavirus/
Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> We could bring it back to life if we wanted. There's some good information here but, a lot is missing like about 10 years worth. Watching goatspot remake the same mistakes is painful lol.


Wow..I wouldn't ever want TGS to be..gone.
It's so much better than BackYard Herds and some of those other forums..


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> Wow..I wouldn't ever want TGS to be..gone.
> It's so much better than BackYard Herds and some of those other forums..


Yes, I have to agree.


Trollmor said:


> Ahh! Now I can type! Which of the forums do you prefer, friends?


This one. Because we can have more people.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

So, on to definitions.

Like CaramelKitty said (something like this): "Socialists are equal at the finish line, Capitalists are equal at the starting line" 
I agree with this except for the fact that not all capitalists are equal are the starting line in some aspects, BUT they DO have equal opportunity. 

To further expound, 
My definition of socialism is a society that everything is controlled by the government. You do not own anything. So basically you give them everything and they ration it back out. This COULD be a good system of government IF they government was honest. But usually you end up with a dictator. I just don't like the idea of not being able to support myself and having to rely on the government.

Capitalists,
Basically, you have the right to make as much money as you want and keep it. You also do not (well should not) get help from the government. And all assets you have are yours.

Communism,
Basically socialism with a dictator and a "Off with his head" if you oppose the dictator. 
Just UGH! If you look at history you see that having a dictator NEVER works out. Look at WWII, look at Stahlin. 

Well that's it for now. I'd like others definitions and ideas.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Interesting fact. Did you know bill gates has a patent on the coronavirus? Kinda weird.
I'll post a link later.
Also that the CDC should be coming out with a vaccine soon. Do you know how long it takes to make a vaccine and test it?? YEARS! YEARS!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

People first started thinking up socialism because they were poor and worked for the bourgeoisie. They hated getting poor wages when the bourgeoisie made tons of money off their hard work. In short, they didn't want any rich people because they didn't think it fair that someone didn't have to work and could be rich off of them. But IMO if you have the financial education, then you deserve to be rich. People don't want to start businesses. And that is why they are working at walmart. I'm not saying anything is wrong with working at walmart or such stores, i'm saying nobody should get mad that the owners of the store makes money off of their work because the workers don't want to start a business of their own.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

I agree. Some people enjoy the simplicity of working at a store while others are better at owning and running businesses. I believe some countries may be able to pull-off socialism however, there are some countries that it just doesn't work for at all. Something interesting to note, the USA is not fully capitalist. It is an interventionist society. Personally, I would rather have a free market and a capitalist society.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> Interesting fact. Did you know bill gates has a patent on the coronavirus? Kinda weird.
> I'll post a link later.
> Also that the CDC should be coming out with a vaccine soon. Do you know how long it takes to make a vaccine and test it?? YEARS! YEARS!


I have heard that! Since it is patented, it means that it is man-made. Here's an interesting clip I found from a speech by Bill Gates.




It is no surprise to me that this man wants the population to go way down, and doesn't care if he has to kill people by releasing a virus..these people are sick.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bill-gates-vaccinations-depopulation/
And, if anybody still believes Snopes Fact Checker, they are obviously lying about Bill Gate's beliefs.

Also, has anybody PMed luvmyherd? I can do it if nobody else has yet.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> We could bring it back to life if we wanted. There's some good information here but, a lot is missing like about 10 years worth. Watching goatspot remake the same mistakes is painful lol.
> 
> My first question is WHY is this different? We've had many outbreak diseases, some of them way more severe than this one. Are the PTB trying to see how many countries are under control?
> There's never been any other scenario that involved locking the whole world in their apartments. There's something seriously wrong with this.


PTB =?

(And what mistakes are you referring to?)

This disease is serious, but I agree that there might have been better opportunities before it got world wide. Here we are really getting close to politics, so I stop here.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> This is the first time in history that Mecca is shut down.
> https://time.com/5791427/saudi-arabia-hajj-mecca-coronavirus/
> Correct me if I'm wrong.


I think you are right. The whole country of Saudi Arabia is closing, mainly because nobody buys its oil for the moment. But, as I said, here we get into politics again ...


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> So, on to definitions.
> 
> Like CaramelKitty said (something like this): "Socialists are equal at the finish line, Capitalists are equal at the starting line"
> I agree with this except for the fact that not all capitalists are equal are the starting line in some aspects, BUT they DO have equal opportunity.
> ...


Agree in many respects, but as I have experienced socialism it has nothing to do with dictatorship. As I might have mentioned, I grew up in it, and there you could talk about equality on the starting line. Then, of course, you have to work to make a progress.

I never understood the difference between Hitler and Stalin, but, they were both dead when I was born.

I visited friends in the Soviet Union, and my memories from the customs there came back to me with great force, when I, years later, had to pass into - the USA...

The starting line for capitalists is anything but equal. My experience.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> Interesting fact. Did you know bill gates has a patent on the coronavirus? Kinda weird.
> I'll post a link later.
> Also that the CDC should be coming out with a vaccine soon. Do you know how long it takes to make a vaccine and test it?? YEARS! YEARS!


Bill Gates of all people??? Is that really checked to be true?

And, yes, normally 3-4 years for a vaccin. Some rumours say we MIGHT get one by New Year, but not many medically educated people seem to believe that.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> People first started thinking up socialism because they were poor and worked for the bourgeoisie. They hated getting poor wages when the bourgeoisie made tons of money off their hard work. In short, they didn't want any rich people because they didn't think it fair that someone didn't have to work and could be rich off of them.


So far I agree. But not the following:


healthyishappy said:


> But IMO if you have the financial education, then you deserve to be rich. People don't want to start businesses. And that is why they are working at walmart. I'm not saying anything is wrong with working at walmart or such stores, i'm saying nobody should get mad that the owners of the store makes money off of their work because the workers don't want to start a business of their own.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bill-gates-vaccinations-depopulation/
> And, if anybody still believes Snopes Fact Checker, they are obviously lying about Bill Gate's beliefs.
> 
> Also, has anybody PMed luvmyherd? I can do it if nobody else has yet.


Thanks for the link! And yes, please do send a PM!


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Before you argue yourself into a hole sticking up for the wrong thing...
Sweden is not a socialist nation, it is a social democracy. 
Cuba is socialist, so is Venezuela.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> Before you argue yourself into a hole sticking up for the wrong thing...
> Sweden is not a socialist nation, it is a social democracy.
> Cuba is socialist, so is Venezuela.


True. And look how Venezuela turned out...


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

“An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.”

This is an online definition of Capitalism. Feel free to agree or disagree. 

“Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.”

And the definition above is the online definition of socialism. Again, feel free to agree or disagree.

“The use of government power to control or influence domestic economic activity.”
Here’s the online definition of interventionism 

Agree or disagree?

Personally, I like to take everything with a grain of salt. I personally believe the above definitions of socialism and capitalism are pretty accurate.
Thoughts?


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

I PMed luvmyherd on TGS. I haven’t gotten a response (just sent it a minute ago!) but hopefully she should be here soon.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> Before you argue yourself into a hole sticking up for the wrong thing...
> Sweden is not a socialist nation, it is a social democracy.
> Cuba is socialist, so is Venezuela.


I am willing to adapt my terminology.

But I think we agree on one thing: The starting line should be equal. Do you agree?


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> "An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market."
> 
> This is an online definition of Capitalism. Feel free to agree or disagree.
> 
> ...


Interventionism? Could that be what I have so far called socialism? Okay for social democracy!


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> True. And look how Venezuela turned out...


Yes, poor chaps! But remember Augusto Pinochet also ...


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> But not the following:


So you don't think you should get what you work for?


Trollmor said:


> The starting line for capitalists is anything but equal. My experience.


Well maybe not equal. But everyone should have equal opportunity.


Trollmor said:


> Agree in many respects, but as I have experienced socialism it has nothing to do with dictatorship. As I might have mentioned, I grew up in it, and there you could talk about equality on the starting line. Then, of course, you have to work to make a progress.


Well there doesn't necessarily have to be a dictator but it easily can be.

Hitler snuck his way up the ranks and declared himself dictator.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> Before you argue yourself into a hole sticking up for the wrong thing...
> Sweden is not a socialist nation, it is a social democracy.
> Cuba is socialist, so is Venezuela.


That IS better than socialism itself but I still feel that its not the governments right to control food, health, or money distribution.

And Cuba is extremely poor.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> I am willing to adapt my terminology.
> 
> But I think we agree on one thing: The starting line should be equal. Do you agree?


What do you mean: "The starting line should be equal" ? as in like people cannot start with huge amounts of money for a business?


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

The starting line can never be equal that's just not how the world works. One person is always going to be more loyal, more obedient, or more intelligent than others and his child will always have more opportunities than other children.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> The starting line can never be equal that's just not how the world works. One person is always going to be more loyal, more obedient, or more intelligent than others and his child will always have more opportunities than other children.


That is true. As my Dad always used to (and still) says, somebody needs to pump gas and flip McDonald's cheeseburgers. 
On the other hand, somebody needs to manage McDonald's and gas stations. Somebody needs to expand the companies, and somebody needs to be the CEO or Chairman. Ideally, we would all start equally and the hardest workers would benefit the most but as you said that isn't always how the world works.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

Of course, if I were the CEO of McDonald’s I wouldn’t want the person flipping cheeseburgers to make near as much money as I did simply because being CEO takes more time and skill than cheeseburger-flipping.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> The starting line can never be equal that's just not how the world works. One person is always going to be more loyal, more obedient, or more intelligent than others and his child will always have more opportunities than other children.


Yes. It's never equal. But everyone has an opportunity to become rich if they want.


CaramelKitty said:


> That is true. As my Dad always used to (and still) says, somebody needs to pump gas and flip McDonald's cheeseburgers.
> On the other hand, somebody needs to manage McDonald's and gas stations. Somebody needs to expand the companies, and somebody needs to be the CEO or Chairman. Ideally, we would all start equally and the hardest workers would benefit the most but as you said that isn't always how the world works.


Exactly. There will never be 100% of people with high paying jobs. It doesn't work.


CaramelKitty said:


> Of course, if I were the CEO of McDonald's I wouldn't want the person flipping cheeseburgers to make near as much money as I did simply because being CEO takes more time and skill than cheeseburger-flipping.


Yup. It all depends on your skill and demand. Anybody can flip a cheeseburger. Not many can do a CEO's job. Therefore the value of their time is increased. It's all supply and demand. If everyone could do a CEO's job then you wouldn't get paid much.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> So you don't think you should get what you work for?
> 
> Well maybe not equal. But everyone should have equal opportunity.
> 
> ...


Equal opportunity = equal starting line? How do we get a fair and equal starting line?


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> That IS better than socialism itself but I still feel that its not the governments right to control food, health, or money distribution.
> 
> And Cuba is extremely poor.


Cuba is a hard dictatorship, but it _has_ a very good health care. So few things are "only black or white".


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> What do you mean: "The starting line should be equal" ? as in like people cannot start with huge amounts of money for a business?


Those who have very little money from the beginning, can never compete with those who have a lot. In Sweden there was a strong diversity in taxes, so that those who had much money paid more to the common welfare system. The schools were alike for all, in the same class there were both poor and rich children.

But, what kinds of businesses are we talking about? Rockefeller's imperium, or one small pizza shop?


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

Flip cheeseburgers all day will give you damages, and there will be no time or strength in the evening to read books or apply for a better job. Which cheeseburger flipper will ever get more pay because he/she is doing a good job?

Are we talking about how the world works, or how it should work?

- Or both?


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Trollmor said:


> Cuba is a hard dictatorship, but it _has_ a very good health care. So few things are "only black or white".


Cuba has very good health care for everyone except the citizens. The people who live there stand in line and die watching tourists with cash get cured. 
Kinda like Germany... Kudos to my son in law who spent 18 months in a German hospital dying of something that is a 5 minute out patient fix in the USA. He was a German native and a member of the army. No worth I guess.


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

And before you reply no, we couldn't bring him home or move him to Thailand. He was still in the army.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> The people who live there stand in line and die watching tourists with cash get cured.


Really? 


skeeter said:


> Kudos to my son in law who spent 18 months in a German hospital dying of something that is a 5 minute out patient fix in the USA. He was a German native and a member of the army. No worth I guess.


Oh dear. And I have learnt that Germany has actually worked these things through.


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

healthyishappy said:


> Anybody can flip a cheeseburge.


Not so sure about this, a couple of these millennials we're having to deal with in the welding shop literally might not be smart enough to flip a burger. 
They barely pass their welding test and then don't have a clue about how to work.


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

It's nice to see tth world in black and white. Unfortunately, that's not what the world is. Humans are inherently the same as any other species. Be the best, climb the ladder, put it however you want. People strive, people grow, sadly they are all striving for the wrong things and reason. 
Trollmor, you said your country had a state nursing home? I would assume they discovered people didn't like being locked up?

When I am ready to die, I'm going to walk the wind and there is nobody in this country that would stop me.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> Not so sure about this, a couple of these millennials we're having to deal with in the welding shop literally might not be smart enough to flip a burger.
> They barely pass their welding test and then don't have a clue about how to work.


That is a sad truth. And..those millennials with no work ethic are the ones pushing for socialism because they don't want to work.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

As for those who want to raise minimum wage, it will just make the store prices go up and/or the stores will hire fewer people. 
Minimum wage (usually very low skill) jobs are designed for kids moving into the work force as they become adults. They are not designed for adults who must sustain their families. But..as these millennials get married and have families..they don’t want (a lot of them anyway..) high-skill jobs. So..they are the ones pushing for higher minimum wage with no clue what it would do to their economy.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> Not so sure about this, a couple of these millennials we're having to deal with in the welding shop literally might not be smart enough to flip a burger.
> They barely pass their welding test and then don't have a clue about how to work.


WOW! Didn't think it was too hard to do that.


CaramelKitty said:


> That is a sad truth. And..those millennials with no work ethic are the ones pushing for socialism because they don't want to work.


Yup. It drives me insane that all my siblings have terrible work ethic. I'm not bragging about myself, I only strive to do better, but I will say EVERYONE I work for tells me to stop working so hard. LOL! To me it just makes sense to work your hardest.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> As for those who want to raise minimum wage, it will just make the store prices go up and/or the stores will hire fewer people.
> Minimum wage (usually very low skill) jobs are designed for kids moving into the work force as they become adults. They are not designed for adults who must sustain their families. But..as these millennials get married and have families..they don't want (a lot of them anyway..) high-skill jobs. So..they are the ones pushing for higher minimum wage with no clue what it would do to their economy.


Exactly! They can't have a higher wage or it would screw so much stuff up.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> Cuba is a hard dictatorship, but it _has_ a very good health care. So few things are "only black or white".


That's true. But it seems most socialist countries end up destitute.


Trollmor said:


> Equal opportunity = equal starting line? How do we get a fair and equal starting line?


We can't.


Trollmor said:


> Those who have very little money from the beginning, can never compete with those who have a lot. In Sweden there was a strong diversity in taxes, so that those who had much money paid more to the common welfare system. The schools were alike for all, in the same class there were both poor and rich children.
> 
> But, what kinds of businesses are we talking about? Rockefeller's imperium, or one small pizza shop?


They can compete. It just takes longer for them to build a business. I know of many successful business owners who started with nothing.
Maybe their chances of success are less, but they still have an opportunity to do it.

I do think that Rockefeller's "imperium" is not right though.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> Flip cheeseburgers all day will give you damages, and there will be no time or strength in the evening to read books or apply for a better job. Which cheeseburger flipper will ever get more pay because he/she is doing a good job?
> 
> Are we talking about how the world works, or how it should work?
> 
> - Or both?


I'm talking about both.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> It's nice to see the world in black and white. Unfortunately, that's not what the world is.


I agree!


skeeter said:


> Trollmor, you said your country had a state nursing home? I would assume they discovered people didn't like being locked up?


This I do not understand. Sweden has changed a great deal during the latest 30-40 years, but in my youth things worked rather fine. Of course not perfect; nothing human is perfect! But from where do you get the idea of being locked up? That is for prisons - and there have been complaints that old people who need help to get a walk do not get that, but I am sure that is not what you mean?

That bad work ethic mentioned several times is, sorry to say, here as well.


Trollmor said:


> Equal opportunity = equal starting line? How do we get a fair and equal starting line?





healthyishappy said:


> We can't.


I my opinion we must try, if nothing else for Christian reasons. 


healthyishappy said:


> They can compete.


Not everybody can.


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

[QUOTE="Trollmor, post: 381599,] I my opinion we must try, if nothing else for Christian reasons.  [/QUOTE]

There's nothing in the bible that says you must start equal. In fact the more hardship you overcame the more blessings you received. Jesus didn't come to give freedom from our governments. He wanted to give freedom of self, to feel worthy and loved even in the bonds of slavery.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

Jesus also teaches us to be kind and take care of one another.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> I my opinion we must try, if nothing else for Christian reasons.


I agree. But it never will be completely fair without taking away everyone's rights.


Trollmor said:


> Not everybody can.


An example please?


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

There is a certain passage in the Bible where Jesus Christ and his disciples gather from the edges of a corn field. This was common back then. The Jewish farmers planted an entire circle of corn (or wheat. Any crop) on a square field. Whatever seeds fell on the corners of the field were left for the poor and those who couldn’t feed themselves. Notice just the corners. The farmers cared for the poor, but the poor had to pick it themselves. And, the poor didn’t get the whole field. 
Much different than food stamps in modern times. We don’t have to harvest the apples we buy from a store. We just put them in a cart.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

Glad to hear we all believe in God.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> I agree. But it never will be completely fair without taking away everyone's rights.


How do you mean?


healthyishappy said:


> An example please?


I don't quite understand. We are all different, and the very idea of competing is to compare us, test which one is the strongest, just like our goats do. And some do land at the very bottom. Is it fair to them to just leave them? In a goat flock, they might be without food, is that fair?


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> Glad to hear we all believe in God.


Well, I don't any more, but I know many of you do!


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> How do you mean?
> I don't quite understand. We are all different, and the very idea of competing is to compare us, test which one is the strongest, just like our goats do. And some do land at the very bottom. Is it fair to them to just leave them? In a goat flock, they might be without food, is that fair?


Personally, I believe it is the Church's job to care for the widowed, orphaned, elderly, and the handicapped. However, the state has taken this into their hands. 
We care for our goats like the Church is supposed to care for the elderly, handicapped, orphaned, and widowed. Our goats can't fend for themselves but most of us humans can and should. 
But, the Bible says that if a man doesn't work, he shouldn't eat. 
I don't believe a McDonald's cheeseburger flipper and a McDonald's CEO should have near the same amount of money. 
I believe in the right to have a free market, with no regulations. See, the reason some big businesses demolish little businesses is because the government is picking favorites. If the government didn't pick favorites, we could have a free market. Or, close to it.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

My bible says that if someone does not *want* to work, he/she shall not eat.

In the Swedish "folk's home" the difference between highest and lowest income was about 1:10. "No-one can eat more than their fill".

There is one problem with leaving the needing to the church and other free-will organizations. Those who don't *want* to contribute, can just slip away. I find that unfair.


CaramelKitty said:


> ... the government is picking favorites.


Here the free and transparent press and broadcasting comes in.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> How do you mean?
> I don't quite understand. We are all different, and the very idea of competing is to compare us, test which one is the strongest, just like our goats do. And some do land at the very bottom. Is it fair to them to just leave them? In a goat flock, they might be without food, is that fair?


Nobody is going to have exactly the same amount of opportunity as everyone else. Unless they take money from the rich and give it to the poor.

The only ones left at the bottom are those that don't want to work. It's not who is "strongest" it's whoever has the most enthusiasm and work ethic. It's not a wrestling match. If you work hard you can be successful. Most people who are rich go through a LOT of ups and downs before they get rich.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> I don't believe a McDonald's cheeseburger flipper and a McDonald's CEO should have near the same amount of money.


I agree. It wouldn't make sense.


CaramelKitty said:


> Our goats can't fend for themselves but most of us humans can and should.


SO AGREE! We aren't animals. Well that's my opinion anyway.


CaramelKitty said:


> Personally, I believe it is the Church's job to care for the widowed, orphaned, elderly, and the handicapped. However, the state has taken this into their hands.
> We care for our goats like the Church is supposed to care for the elderly, handicapped, orphaned,


Church, community, neighbors. NOT the government. Community's should be dependent on themselves to take care of its members. Kids use to take care of their parents. People use to save for retirement. 


Trollmor said:


> Here the free and transparent press and broadcasting comes in.


TO do what?


Trollmor said:


> There is one problem with leaving the needing to the church and other free-will organizations. Those who don't *want* to contribute, can just slip away. I find that unfair.


That's where morale and community helping comes in hand.


Trollmor said:


> Well, I don't any more, but I know many of you do!


 Why not?


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> Here the free and transparent press and broadcasting comes in.





healthyishappy said:


> TO do what?


To go through what the mighty ones, including the government, are doing, and publish the result.


Trollmor said:


> There is one problem with leaving the needing to the church and other free-will organizations. Those who don't *want* to contribute, can just slip away. I find that unfair.





healthyishappy said:


> That's where morale and community helping comes in hand.


I believe the law is more effective. There will always be people who don't have any ethics.


Trollmor said:


> Well, I don't any more, but I know many of you do!





healthyishappy said:


> Why not?


I found they did not work in real life.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

I would like to contribute with some words:

Competition <=====> Co-Operation

 Democracy

(Can someone find the correct quotation from Pippi Longstocking? "Who is very strong must also be very kind.")


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> To go through what the mighty ones, including the government, are doing, and publish the result.


All the "Big boys" here basically control the government.


Trollmor said:


> I believe the law is more effective. There will always be people who don't have any ethics.


Sadly it's true. But is it right to take away peoples freedom of if they want to help or not?


Trollmor said:


> I found they did not work in real life.


Define "they"? Found out that the principles didn't work?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> Competition <=====> Co-Operation


How so? Co-operation is two or more people working together. Competition is people working against each other.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> All the "Big boys" here basically control the government.


Yes. Because you do not have any functioning press & TV. 


healthyishappy said:


> Sadly it's true. But is it right to take away peoples freedom of if they want to help or not?


Only the freedom to neglect human duties, like helping the poor.


healthyishappy said:


> Define "they"? Found out that the principles didn't work?


Sorry! I meant the promises in the Bible and in the Church.


healthyishappy said:


> How so? Co-operation is two or more people working together. Competition is people working against each other.


Exactly! I see these two words as opposites. - And I know well which one I prefer ...


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> Yes. Because you do not have any functioning press & TV.


That actually is a good thing, I think. An honest press.


Trollmor said:


> Only the freedom to neglect human duties, like helping the poor.


And here I disagree. Because if you help the poor then they realize they don't have to work to get food. It's like giving a man a fish, instead of teaching him to fish. I'm not against helping the poor. In fact I am all for it, I just think that if people do not get help then they will do more for themselves.


Trollmor said:


> Sorry! I meant the promises in the Bible and in the Church.


The Bible promises are not like a business agreement. You have to be totally willing without any expectations of getting anything back.


Trollmor said:


> Exactly! I see these two words as opposites. - And I know well which one I prefer ...


OH! Yes, I agree, those are opposites. Co-operation IS good. When people work together you get more done. But competition is also a good thing in my opinion. If we don't have competition in business we end up with expensive, poor quality products.


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

@healthyishappy, I believe most people who have no food for the day prefer a net rather than a fish.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Then why give them a fish?


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

Better than nothing.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

Our President is creating jobs rather than giving out a 
hand-out and look how well our economy is doing. 
Competition can bring out the best in people. People work the hardest, work to give customers the lowest prices, best quality, etc. 
Obviously playing dirty in competition is never a good thing, but many companies competing is great for the economy.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> Better than nothing.


But then they just rely on the government.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> But then they just rely on the government.


Exactly! And they never learn or have any desire to be good hard-working people.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> Our President is creating jobs rather than giving out a
> hand-out and look how well our economy is doing.
> Competition can bring out the best in people. People work the hardest, work to give customers the lowest prices, best quality, etc.
> Obviously playing dirty in competition is never a good thing, but many companies competing is great for the economy.


And for the consumers.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> And for the consumers.


Very true!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> Exactly! And they never learn or have any desire to be good hard-working people.


Yes. Because why would they if they get it for free? There is no reason for them to work.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> Yes. Because why would they if they get it for free? There is no reason for them to work.


Very true. Look how many homeless people wander around in cities. They are homeless because they want to be. (for the most part.) I'm sure they gets lots of money and hand-outs and food stamps yet, contribute nothing to the economy. They take our tax payer money and never bring another back to the country. It's stealing if you ask me. Note* I'm just talking about the ones who don't have jobs and don't want jobs and don't have homes and don't want homes. I understand some people are homeless by force (although I've never meet any that were)


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> They are homeless because they want to be.


You can not possibly mean this???

It is true that I "helped fate on the way" a little by not being strong enough, not clever enough, bur NEVER, I assure you, by WANTING to sleep outdoors in the cold and with anyone able to attack me every time I closed my eyes!!! It was an awful time!

So, @CaramelKitty, those homeless people you have met, do they really cheer and say "I like this kind of life, would never want a home or a decent job that could support me"? Or what do they say?


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## Trollmor (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> But then they just rely on the government.


The government - or if you prefer, the autorities, do have some tools in their tool box, to help people get more than one meal. "Living Place First", helping to get a job ...


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> You can not possibly mean this???
> 
> It is true that I "helped fate on the way" a little by not being strong enough, not clever enough, bur NEVER, I assure you, by WANTING to sleep outdoors in the cold and with anyone able to attack me every time I closed my eyes!!! It was an awful time!
> 
> So, @CaramelKitty, those homeless people you have met, do they really cheer and say "I like this kind of life, would never want a home or a decent job that could support me"? Or what do they say?


Well, I've never had a long conversation with them but they seem incredibly content to ask for money and contribute nothing. They have nice clothes, get fed well, have plenty of money for cigarettes, yet never make any attempt to better themselves. The ones I've seen just sit on the ground all day...and almost never move. It is obvious they don't have a job, but if they really wanted to better themselves..they could stop buying the best shoes, best iPhones, cigarettes, best jackets etc. Also, I actually do remember a couple older men who appeared to desperately want a house. A church nearby always let them stay in their building on certain days and they were nice, pleasant people. The homeless who I've seen who contribute nothing to society were in Atlantic City GA in case anybody was wondering.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

For all I know, the homeless I saw in GA may have a house or live in some kind of recreation center, since I’ve never seen any with sleeping equipment and they seem to disappear near dark.


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Oh we pay for the poor, I stand in the grocery line with my little bit of grocery money watching the people with welfare cards buy foods I can't afford every 2 weeks. The amount they get out of my taxes is way more than I get for foods.


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Kind of funny, I wrote out a whole post about the government situation in Sweden and I got a security error lol. Guess you're on your own on that one. You might look up Soviet sustainable living. ROFL like any of these things are anything different.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> Oh we pay for the poor, I stand in the grocery line with my little bit of grocery money watching the people with welfare cards buy foods I can't afford every 2 weeks. The amount they get out of my taxes is way more than I get for foods.


It's a sad truth. The working class has less money than those on welfare. And those on welfare don't know (for the most part) how to save and spend it wisely.


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## NDinKY (Apr 5, 2020)

Hi everyone, Trollmor invited me to join this thread. I used to have similar beliefs about welfare queens, food stamp abuse, free loaders, etc. However, as I’ve gotten older and had much more exposure to various situations through work, daycare, and other venues, my beliefs have changed significantly. 

I work in a university hospital. We take care of everyone regardless of ability to pay. We treat everyone equally, from the homeless patient to the wealthy. There are so many social issues that lead to poverty, it is not as simple as they just don’t want to work. 

Yes, there are people who abuse the system. It’s infuriating and for me it takes a mental effort to not let frustrations with the abuse affect how I view/care for the patient’s medical problems. A lot of people come back time and time again because they don’t take their medications, which we delivered bedside before discharge. Then we get blamed for them bouncing back. Still, we treat everyone equally. 

I’ve seen more patients who work several jobs, do everything “right”, and still struggle and need assistance. These are good, hard working people who can’t get caught up. Medical bills crush people. The reorganization of HMOs and PPOs has lined the pockets of insurance executives while destroying the middle class financially. Have the bad luck of getting diagnosed with cancer? Even with good insurance, you may go bankrupt, house in foreclosure, and not be able to feed your kids even though you’ve worked hard for 20 years and done everything you were supposed to. Rent is so high, many live paycheck to paycheck, working two jobs. Childcare is insanely expensive. For my two kids I pay $300/week, and that is cheap compared to what most areas of the country are. 

I am not a socialist but I am a fan of Bernie Sanders. Our healthcare system needs to be drastically reformed. We need a one payer system. This pandemic has exposed how awful our healthcare system is. Medical students and residents are being used as meat shields against this virus. Hospital administrators have failed to plan and the lack of PPE is killing physicians, nurses, and many others. Hospital systems are laying off and furloughing workers because census is down. Cutting paychecks even though we all know what is coming. Look at New York. Look at Detroit. Louisiana. What happened in Italy is happening here. This virus doesn’t care if you are a welfare queen or a country music star. Young people are dying. Alone.


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## Chassity (Apr 5, 2020)

I’m not sure if this is how I’m suppose to post... but I’m looking for assistance with a goat with a broken hind leg... it’s a definite break.. I’ve got it wrapped now, headed out to get finger splints to use... my question is how do I set it?? Just line the bones k up??
Also give antibiotics?? I’ve given banamine orally, Will give IM when I back with my other supplies... the skin is not broken, right above the last joint before the hoof.,. Any tips/advice etc please feel free... thank you


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

Chassity said:


> I'm not sure if this is how I'm suppose to post... but I'm looking for assistance with a goat with a broken hind leg... it's a definite break.. I've got it wrapped now, headed out to get finger splints to use... my question is how do I set it?? Just line the bones k up??
> Also give antibiotics?? I've given banamine orally, Will give IM when I back with my other supplies... the skin is not broken, right above the last joint before the hoof.,. Any tips/advice etc please feel free... thank you


Hi! Unfortunately I don't have any clue about fixing a broken leg for a goat and this forum is basically dead. I would suggest going to another forum called TheGoatSpot where you can lot more help. I really hope your goat gets better. You've done a great job so far!


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

I have to say I disagree with the thought that the Coronavirus in Italy is foreshadowing what will happen in America. There are many pictures circulating all over the internet of hospitals without many patients. The two ships Comfort and Mercy have a total of 20 patients. These are two giant cruise ships and the patients on them don’t have Coronavirus. 
The people in Italy are in smaller houses with more people in them, and generational households. They great each other by hugging and kissing while us Americans tend to greet each other with a hand shake, but often times people just wave hello. We have a lot more land, and people can spread out. I understand that there are people in the city who can’t spread out as well, but even New York isn’t as bad as Italy.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

Read the fine print at the bottom.


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## NDinKY (Apr 5, 2020)

Many hospitals are at an all time low census outside of the hot spots. Bodies are piling up in the hotspots however. We will be worse than Italy I fear. Go read some threads on Reddit in r/medicine to get some first hand accounts from physicians and residents working in these hospitals. It’s not a pretty picture and lots of people, with and without comorbidities, are dying.


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## NDinKY (Apr 5, 2020)

Chassity said:


> I'm not sure if this is how I'm suppose to post... but I'm looking for assistance with a goat with a broken hind leg... it's a definite break.. I've got it wrapped now, headed out to get finger splints to use... my question is how do I set it?? Just line the bones k up??
> Also give antibiotics?? I've given banamine orally, Will give IM when I back with my other supplies... the skin is not broken, right above the last joint before the hoof.,. Any tips/advice etc please feel free... thank you


If it is a closed fracture, and the bones are aligned properly and splinted then there is not much more to do but wait and let it heal. We had a 4 month old doeling who broke her leg. The vet set it and it healed up completely. No limp, no abnormalities.

I also agree with going to TheGoatSpot for goat questions. Lots of good people with lots of experience there.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Trollmor said:


> The government - or if you prefer, the autorities, do have some tools in their tool box, to help people get more than one meal. "Living Place First", helping to get a job ...


I find no problem with helping people get jobs. But not just giving them free stuff.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

NDinKY said:


> I am not a socialist but I am a fan of Bernie Sanders. Our healthcare system needs to be drastically reformed. We need a one payer system. This pandemic has exposed how awful our healthcare system is. Medical students and residents are being used as meat shields against this virus. Hospital administrators have failed to plan and the lack of PPE is killing physicians, nurses, and many others. Hospital systems are laying off and furloughing workers because census is down. Cutting paychecks even though we all know what is coming. Look at New York. Look at Detroit. Louisiana. What happened in Italy is happening here. This virus doesn't care if you are a welfare queen or a country music star. Young people are dying. Alone.


Our healthcare system needs to back down. It's all for money and all they do (mostly) is keep you sick. Look at the side effects on the pills they prescribe. People need to learn to help themselves. Don't get me wrong, we need doctors, but not for everything.

I guess people will never learn how bad communism is until they are actually in it.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

True. Communism *could* work in America..but only for a couple years. When the government runs out of stolen money from the rich..we would just become a third world country.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> Our healthcare system needs to back down. It's all for money and all they do (mostly) is keep you sick. Look at the side effects on the pills they prescribe. People need to learn to help themselves. Don't get me wrong, we need doctors, but not for everything.
> 
> I guess people will never learn how bad communism is until they are actually in it.


I totally agree. Big Pharma makes money off of people being sick, and needing medication. They love stealing money from the patients and insurance companies. When a doctor gives you a referral, he/she gets money. When a doctor gives you pills to manage blood pressure or something like that due to obesity, he/she makes money. But a doctor who tells his/her patients to go on a healthy diet..doesn't get money at all. 
And even worse for the Big Pharma..when people grow their own food via fruits/vegetables/animals. But the worst enemy of Big Pharma is when people grow and use their own God-Given medication-herbs.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

@Moers Kiko Boers 
https://www.brighteon.com/58271f5d-56a1-4820-bdf7-8766dedd4bbc

This video is kinda long but SUPER informative.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...ed-cdc-just-cut-numbers-half-making-go-along/
Here's an article from one of my favorite and most-reliable news sources. 
A quick summary- It was totally overestimated as to how many Ventilators, ICU Beds would be needed. The number of those who would be hospitalized was also overestimated. 
While I do not have an article at the moment to prove it, there are many pictures circulating that people claim are hospitals (Full of patients and chaotic) in America however they are actually hospitals in Italy. Just wondering if anybody saw anything else like that too. 
I don't think we are currently/going to be anything like Italy. I'm not worried.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

If our founding fathers saw our country today, I think they would say "OH shit, they're in for a rude awakening"


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

Isn't this interesting? Hmm..


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> If our founding fathers saw our country today, I think they would say "OH ****, they're in for a rude awakening"


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> Isn't this interesting? Hmm..
> View attachment 2081


That is interesting!


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> That is interesting!


Here's my question...Who is doing this? Is it the USA? Is it China? Or is it something a lot deeper....
I tend to lean towards the third option.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> Here's my question...Who is doing this? Is it the USA? Is it China? Or is it something a lot deeper....
> I tend to lean towards the third option.


Oh I definitely think the third option. Communists have had this planned a LONG time.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> Oh I definitely think the third option. Communists have had this planned a LONG time.


For sure. And not just the Communists, but also the Globalists (United Nations ) who want Communism
world-wide.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> For sure. And not just the Communists, but also the Globalists (United Nations ) who want Communism
> world-wide.


Definitely. The United Nations is NOT good at all.....


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

Now that we have all seen our definitions of Socialism, Communism, Capitalism and Interventionism, shall we compare countries with each type?
China-Communist 
Australia-Capitalist
Venezuela-Communist
Ireland-Capitalist
See a pattern?


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

Many of those words/government types mean little these days. They may have meant something 20 years ago.
Your homework for today is to watch this movie


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> Many of those words/government types mean little these days. They may have meant something 20 years ago.
> Your homework for today is to watch this movie


Hello Patriot!
I already saw it before you put it up.


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

skeeter said:


> Many of those words/government types mean little these days. They may have meant something 20 years ago.
> Your homework for today is to watch this movie


The stuff that these awful, wicked people are doing is...wicked and awful. It is downright satanic. These people are sick.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 23, 2020)

Okay, first I want to thank you all for feeling that I should be a part of this. I was shocked when I finally registered to see so many posts. There was no way I had time to read them all. So tomorrow I will try to get caught up before I add anything.
I have always said that I am a socialistic/anarchist.


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

So you want to destroy the world and then use the few surviving people for slave labor? 
The easiest way to do this is start with letting them work for their food. Then you slowly bring them under a debt system. Next thing they know, they owe you too much to ever get away.


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

People have a very wrong idea of what these systems are. There's a few socialist systems on earth. There are no communist ones anymore although I'm old enough to remember a couple. 
China, N Korea, Cuba, these are socialist countries.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

Communism is not really a form of government. It is having total control of everyone.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

All of this Covid stuff coming out is real interesting...
Anybody need a laugh? https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/c...jb20iLCAia2xfY29tcGFueV9pZCI6ICJLMnZYQXkifQ==


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## CaramelKitty (Mar 28, 2020)

healthyishappy said:


> All of this Covid stuff coming out is real interesting...
> Anybody need a laugh? https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/comic-relief-what-its-believe-everything-media-tells-you-about-covid?utm_campaign=Daily Newsletter: JP Sears and Stats (WdXchf)&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Daily Newsletter&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJwaWNuaWtpbnRoZXZhbGxleUB5YWhvby5jb20iLCAia2xfY29tcGFueV9pZCI6ICJLMnZYQXkifQ==


Haha. That was funny. Have you seen what kids in Chinese schools must wear on their heads? I think they are called 'superwings.'


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## healthyishappy (Mar 28, 2020)

CaramelKitty said:


> Haha. That was funny. Have you seen what kids in Chinese schools must wear on their heads? I think they are called 'superwings.'


Oh wow. And whats the point in wearing those?


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