# Suzie's fight with pneumonia - UPDATED



## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

Below is the notes I've been keeping on my Suzie - she is an April kid Oberhasli doeling that has developed pneumonia. 

Based on my notes below I'm trying to decide whether or not to dose her again tonight. Thoughts.. advice???


Suzie – 69 lbs.

Sun. Sept 13 – came home from Tennessee State Fair
Tue. Sept 15 – began developing runny nose & cough
Wed. Sept 16 – nose not at runny, persistent cough, less energetic
Thur. Sept 17 – nose not as runny, persistent cough, depressed, off feed.
7:00 pm - Temp 105.8 (guessed weight at 50-60#)
½ cc banamine SQ
3 cc nuflor SQ
5 cc Tussin (cough/expectorant) by mouth

Fri. Sept 18 – used girth measurement for weight (31” = 97#)
6:00 am temp 104.9
Still depressed, off feed, coughing, scouring, grinding teeth
1 cc banamine SQ
5.5 cc Nuflor SQ
5 cc Childrens Benadryl by mouth

3:00 pm temp 105.4 noticed her urinate very small amount (dehydrated??)

4:30 pm Visit to Rock-N-County Vet – Dr. Julie
Weighed on scales at 69# -- fecal clean
1.8 cc Re-covr (Rx antihistamine)
0.7 cc banamine (IV by vet)
5 cc Nuflor
IV SQ fluids 400 ML – vet taught me how and sent supplies home.

Saturday Sept 19 – depressed, off feed, coughing, scouring, grinding teeth, moaning a little
8:00 am temp 104.2
0.7 cc Banamine
5 cc Nuflor
5 g Respond Probios

Noticed her drinking small amounts of water on a couple of times today. Laying down most of the time. Will eat leaves taken to her.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Well, Nuflor is administered every 24 hours, so unless your vet says differently, I'd wait until tomorrow AM.
(What does your vet say?)

I would be giving more SubQ fluids. B-complex, Bo-Se to boost the immune system. If she is still scouring, some Pepto-Bismol (about 6ccs orally) just to coat the gut and give her a little relief.

I would also steal some cud from a mature doe and give it to her. Add to a little fluid and drench it down her if you have to.

Plenty of TLC (fussing, warm spot, blanket if needed). A variety of browse offered to her as well.

Hope she turns the corner for you soon.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

You won't expect improvement until 24 hours after the first dosages of antibiotics. With enough banamine it will bring down her temp and the subq fluids will make her feel better. With the fluids, make a bubble high on the shoulder as large as your hand will fit over, repeat on the other side with the fluid is nearly absorbed, and it is normal in very dairy does to pool this fluid low on the body or abdomen if you are giving too much.

I simply don't see many people having luck with nuflour, if in 24 hours you are not seeing improvment, go get Naxcel from your vet.

And since you now know this is going to be a problem in your herd and show circuit vaccinated for pasturella pnemonia.

Did you run a fecal? Vicki


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## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Yes, we ran fecal and vet said she looked ok and didn't think deworming was necessary at this point.

Camille, thanks for reminding me on the B VIt. will add that tonight.

What I'm not sure about is that Suzie had a full round of meds this morning and can't decide whether or not to give more tonight or wait until tomorrow morning... With her temp at 104.6 tonight do you guys think she needs another dose of banamine. I sure do hate to OD her on meds. :shrug2

I'm thinking unless there is major improvement tomorrow, that I will definately ask for Naxel on Monday.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

How is her breathing? The banamine not only helps with fever reduction it also helps with the inflammation in her lungs. Dexamethzone is also really good at this. Fluids of course. I don't use nuflor to even know the dosages to use on pnemonia, so I have no idea if doubling up the dosages will beat this faster or not. Vicki


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

We have used Nuflor for pneumonia and we don't double the dosage. Combined with banamine, Nuflor works like a charm for us (and several other breeders up here who swear by it).

With that said - If one anitbiotic isn't working, it is okay to switch to something else (Naxcel/Excenel) (Around here the vets charge more for the Naxcel, so we use Excenel and they are pretty much interchangeable). I have had my vet tell me to use a particular drug, but if no change in 2-3 days to switch.

I would still use up the last shot of Nuflor tomorrow AM. Check temp and reevaluate. Some pneumonia is tough, especially if it got a leg hold. If you don't like her progress, then get the alternate drug from vet tomorrow and start immediately (unless your vet says to wait, which is not likely).

Banamine can go 10 days if necessary at full dose, about twice that at 1/2 dose.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Camille is her dosage good on her Nuflor? If you watch the forums those who are not having good response to antibiotic are always using Nuflor, perhaps their dosage is incorrect? Vicki


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## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

8:00 pm Just came from barn and her temp is 105.1. I don't understand why I can't get her temp under control!! Very frustrating! :help2

Her breathing is good. She seems a little more alert this afternoon and tonight but still definately depressed. Scouring still, her butt looks so red and irritated I cleaned up the scour and smoothed some A&D ointment on when I took her temp.

Decided not to overdo the Nuflor and Banamine and went with; 
1.8 cc of Re-Covr (Rx antihistamine) 
a good dose of Probios
3cc B Complex.

I hope I made the right decision not to give Banamine & Nuflor. Seems her gut is so torn up I hated to make it worse.

PS: Saw her drink some water and she ate the grass hay well and also fresh limbs I brought her 3-4 times this evening.

Thanks so much guys, it feels much better to know I have such a great group of people for support. I just wish I had enough experience to not be second guessing myself.

PS: This last April-May (start of show season) we vaccinated everyone with the pasturella vaccine. Maybe it wore off... :sigh
Arden Ward
Trinity Rose Oberhasli
Murfreesboro, Tn


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

When we had an outbreak of Pasteurella Pneumonia several years back, we gave Nuflor 3cc/100# for 5 days. Naxcel wouldn't knock the Pasteurella - but it's the best for other types of Pneumonia. We also gave Dex - it will stimulate the appetite too. We picked the Pasteurella up at a show also.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Actually, we use 6ccs/100lb so she is definitely using enough. Sounds like she has a good vet, so I would work closely with the vet as well. You may just need to go 6-8 days with the Nuflor as it is working. Can't explain the continued high temp, but a high temp is Mother Nature's Way of killing viral/bacterial infections. As long as she continues to improve I wouldn't worry too much.

With the scours - definitely give her the Pepto. Cud stealing in order.

Her symptoms are improving, which is good. Have you taken the temps of any of her herdmates? At least you can make sure the thermometer is still good.

As far as the vaccine - even goats that get CDT get clostridium - hopefully just a milder case. There could have been a little different strain at the show, or this particular animal didn't handle the stress as well, so she is the one that got sick. It would be nice to think that the vaccines make a plastic shield around our goats, but they don't.

We generally give B-complex and probios to our goats (and Bo-Se) before we head to the show. Just giving a boost to the immune system and hopefully no one will get sick when we get home. We will be home from the Spokane Interstate Fair on Sunday night and I'll be watching the girls quite closely - it was very dusty there.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Just asking, not recommending, but I've heard that if you use a cool cloth on a doe's milk veins, around her udder, and insides of back legs, it can help bring her temp down but not overly fast. Would this be a good move here? For temp reduction? Just as TLC?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Keeping milk out of the udder will work Billie, imagine carrying around a half gallon of 102 degree milk when you have a fever. You want to do anything to lower the fever because it destroys rumen flora, means there is soo much bacteria in the lungs that it will either kill the goat or cause so much scar tissue to form that she will be a mouth breather when this is over, or simply means a doe who won't eat, won't drink and then gives up.

Hope she is doing better. Vicki


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

My goats have always responded well to Nuflor and Banamine. My vet says sometimes you need to do the Nuflor for a week. When Cozette had pneumonia earlier this year, the vet was concerned with how bad her lungs sounded and gave her a shot of Draxxin which he said was faster in healing the lungs and also longer acting. I gave 3 days of Banamine and followed 3 days later with a shot of Nuflor. She got better in just a couple days after the Draxxin. A friend had a couple does come down with some kind of bovine pneumonia that Nuflor didn't touch. She lost one doe before her DH gave the other a shot of Naxcel which was what he had to use on the cattle. That doe pulled through with a course of Naxcel. It sounds like some types of pneumonia require different drugs. Kathie


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## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Well, today showed no real signs of improvement. I am getting worried. This is day 4 of her treatment. Shouldn't I be seeing significant improvement by now??

I can tell her gut is really upset with all this antibiotic treatment. We'll take a trip to the Vets tomorrow morning to reevaluate. (don't tell.... I'm going to call in sick to work tomorrow!)

Kathie-- thanks for the info on Draxxin. I've looked it up and will ask if we can try the Draxxin or Naxcel as it doesn't seem like the Nuflor is making much difference.

Here is todays charting....
SUNDAY SEPT 20 -- 
8:00 am - coughing scouring, depressed, off feed
Temp 104.6
Probios
6 cc Pepto Bismol
0.7 cc Banamine
5 cc Nuflor
200 ML lactated ringer SQ

8:00 pm 
Temp 104.8
3 cc B Complex
1.8 cc Re-Covr

I'll let you guys know tomorrow what we hear at the vets.

Thanks so much for your support, I'm really stressing here and it helps to get online and read others responses.

Arden Ward
Trinity Rose Oberhasli
Murfreesboro, TN

PS: One note here. I am now treating Suzies' two other doeling 1/2 sisters for this same issue. They seem to be responding better to treatment other than the fact that this Nuflor seems to be causing everyone to scour.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

If you started treating the other doelings before they got as sick as Suzie, that's probably why they are responding quicker. The Nuflor shouldn't be causing scours. It's actually used to treat some forms of scours. I've never had it cause scours in my goats. My guess is that the scours are from whatever form of pneumonia your goats have. I only give Nuflor at a dose of 3-4cc per 100 lb. Kathie


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Oh, I definitely had goats scour from Nuflor before. My two legged kids "scour" from antibiotics, too.


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## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

I loaded up Suzie & Hope this morning to make a trip to the vets. Hope was is the other doe that has been sick. I left the least sick doeling (Sophie) at home. (I've sold down to my best 3 doelings). On the way to the vet Hope died. When I got to the vets they had me take her right away to the state lab in Nashville for necropsy to try and determine what is going on. The vet did state that this could be a virus and that would explain why the antibiotics aren't making things better. She asked me to leave Suzie there overnight so they could monitor her closely and start her on another antibiotic. She was moaning some when I left. I don't really expect her to be coming home either.

This is really hard. I've had livestock for over 20 years (horses, cows, chickens, etc) and goats for the last 4 years. Goats seem to be harder than any of the others and I'm wondering if I'm cut out for this. :sniffle :sniffle The vet was trying to console me this morning as I sat in the office crying and said she knows its hard but to try and remember this is a farm/business. Well, all I can say is if it's a business then I'm definately not making money. The goats to me are more than livestock/business. They are my "girls". You know what really gets me is that somewhere someone made the decision to bring their animals to the state fair and thought... oh it's just a runny nose, they'll be fine... well what they don't take into consideration is that someone elses animals may not have a resistance to their goats "runny nose" and may come home and lose their two best doe kids of the year all so they can show and maybe get that ribbon. Not so sure how I feel about showing in the future....

Sorry, I'm venting.. I'm just hurting right now and still worrying what this illness is; and if it's going to strike in any other of my girls.

I'll let you know what I hear from the necropsy.

Thanks for all your suggestions over the last couple of days..

Arden Ward
Trinity Rose Oberhasli
Murfreesboro, TN


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Arden, I feel for you!!! Will be praying for Suzie to pull through and for your spirits to be lifted.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

So very sorry that you lost your doeling Arden.. Hoping and praying that Suzie makes it for you.. Know what you mean about taking sick goats to fair.. I have seen some awful sights at some goat shows.
Barb


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## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Initial Necropsy back on Hope. Trying to remember what the vet said here&#8230;

Examination showed Hopes lungs were clear and did not show signs of bacterial pneumonia (pus, red angry tissue). The pathologist believes that her cause of death was a really red angry looking area of tissue in the small intestine. He asked my vet if we vaccinated for clostridium and she told him yes that she helped me vaccinate this spring with Covexin 8. So the thought was that the area could have been a different strain of clostridium, ecoli or salmonella. They will be trying to get a culture to find out what it was.

She (vet) believes that we are dealing with a viral respiratory/pneumonia that lowered Hopes resistance and allowed some other infection to take over in her intestines which caused her death. She reminded me (which I really needed to hear) that if this is indeed a viral pneumonia that the Nuflor wasn't going to work. That fevers can come from viral, bacterial, even fungal infections but that the antibiotics are only going to work against the bacterial infections. It has probably helped to keep the virus from going into a bacterial pneumonia but that Nuflor is a gram positive antibiotic (this is where I get confused) it was ineffective against an infection in the intestine.

For that reason Suzie today received a dose of Excenel which is a broad spectrum (??), both gram positive and gram negative antibiotic and she also got drenched with a sulfa bolus (Sustain III Calf Bolus) to try and help the intestinal upset & probios. I went and picked her up this afternoon and brought her home. Her new plan of treatment is Excenel, Thiamin & Probios. We are discontinuing the banamine to avoid further stomach upset. Hopefully this virus will run it's course with her and she'll make it. She is definitely still not out of the woods.

The second and big hope is that this virus will not spread further in my small herd. Everybody will get daily temperature checks and doses of Probios to try and keep resistance up.

Sorry I've talked so much on and on about this issue. It does help me though, to bounce things off of you guys. Thanks for being there.

Arden


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Will keep praying for you and your herd!


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Arden, I have been reading your story about your does and just want to praise you for the actions you took. Nuflor is not my drug of choice for respiratory issues, but what you did has kept Suzie with you and you should be commended. Many owners would have thrown up their hands by now. Dealing with sick and much loved animals is one of the hardest things to do because you are so attached. I lost 3 of my favorite does last year to toxemia and one was to have been the backbone of my Saanen genetics and I cried buckets when she succumbed. I had to remind myself that I had done all that was in my power to do. She died at the vet's farm. My vet transported her to the lab for necropsy, I could not have done it. You do deserve a hug. Jennifer


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## goatwhisperer (Feb 11, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Arden

There are several people (myself included) that vaccinate for Entero every 3 months and that is backed by studies in NZ that after 96 days the titers are below the level needed to protect the goat. With the Necropsy indicating a problem in the intestine and not really showing anything in the lungs I would add C&D antitoxin to your treatment. If its not Entero it will do no harm but if it is then it could make the difference. Also if it is a bacterial gut infection Neomycin or ProPen given orally will quite often help. Also if they do culture a bacterial infection ask the lab to run a sensitivity screen to see what antibiotic will be most effective.

Tom Kuettner
Kickin K Ranch 
Reg Saanen & 
Oberhasli Dairy Goats


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

So sorry to hear you lost a doeling.

There are some people out there, myself included, who just don't show juniors because they pick up diseases far quicker than adults. Not just respiratory stuff but also CAE and Johne's disease. I guess the way I see it a dry leg is just not that important...and nearly every time I transport kids somebody gets the sniffles.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

:down so sorry you lost your doeling.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*



> It has probably helped to keep the virus from going into a bacterial pneumonia but that Nuflor is a gram positive antibiotic (this is where I get confused) it was ineffective against an infection in the intestine.
> 
> For that reason Suzie today received a dose of Excenel which is a broad spectrum (??), both gram positive and gram negative antibiotic...


This doesn't really help with your situation, but at least you can be less confused about the gram positive and gram negative thing. When you identify bacteria, you do a number of different things to sort them...shape, how they group together if they do (for example, coccus shaped bacteria are round balls, and "strepto" means chain, so streptococcus types of bacteria are round and form chains kind of like a short string of pearls), etc. Another thing is to stain them with different things to see how they react, and one of the stains is called Gram Stain. So a "gram positive" bacteria will be stained a purplish color by the gram stain and "gram negative" bacteria are not stained by it (instead, you do a "counterstain" and they take that color). The differences are caused by differences in the structure of the cell walls of the bacteria. The difference in the cell walls also affect what types of antibiotics are effective against them. (BTW, antibiotics don't actually kill bacteria, they just keep them from being able to reproduce and time and your immune system takes care of the rest.)

And I'm sorry about your goats, especially the doeling that you lost. I would be sad, too, business/farm or no.


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## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Just wanted to update you all on Suzies status... I'm afraid to say it but I think she's getting better. Her temp has been in the 102 range for the last 24 hours. First time in almost a week. Excenel dose last night and another Excenel dose tonight, Thiamin too and plenty of Probios and last but not least lots of TLC, pampering and talking too.

Talked to the vet today about how she's doing and she said it sounded like she was improving but she didn't want me to get my hopes too high, that she is still not out of the woods. If I could just see her bouncing around again!

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions and information.

Arden Ward
Trinity Rose Oberhasli
Murfreesboro, TN


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

:woohoo :handclap :handclap


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Great news Arden!

If it is the right antibiotic (and it seems to be - fingers crossed) then she should continue to improve. This is where diligence on your part will help her recover more quickly - fresh water, choice browse, probiotics, even some cud from a healthy doe.

Sorry to hear that the other doe died. It is so hard to take - hugs from Idaho.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

Sorry you lost Hope. I'm glad that Suzie seems to be responding to the Excenel. This thread has given me some insight into what may have happened to a doeling I lost several years ago, following a show. She was a preemie I had saved and, upon hindsight, should not have hauled to a show. There was swine pneumonia going around the fair that year and a couple breeders besides me lost kids. One had a necropsy done and that's how we knew what it was. This kid started out with sniffles and the day I lost her, was moaning like it had gone into entero. I always suspected her immune system was compromised to cause her death. The other kids didn't get that ill. Kathie


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

We have yet to show and I'm beginning to think that we won't!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - details and asking for advice*

With so many putting more weight on appraisal scores, showing and the expense of it doesn't make alot of sense....but nothing will get the prices of what you can charge for your stock higher than showing. Vaccinate....boost immunity. This way when others at the show are treating with expensive meds your does immunity kicks in and you just do supportive care. Also use this doe when she pulls through and freshens for you, as part of your colostrum source for all the kids on your place, her and the oldest vaccinated does have your most valuable colostrum. Vicki


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## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

*Re: Suzie's fight with pneumonia - UPDATED :-(*

I am devastated and Suzie is gone. I went to the grocery after work to get some goat cookies (animal crackers) and came home to find Suzie in the barnyard thrashing and in acute distress. She was doing so much better. I cam home today at lunch to check on her and she was standing up on the wall in her pen begging for treats and I brought her some more leaves to eat. I don't understand!! Somehow she had gotten out of her hospital pen. The best I can tell is that the other goats went out into the big pasture this afternoon and Suzie was lonely, so maybe she got up on her spool and somehow climbed (3 more feet) out of the pen. Could have jumping out been too much for her little weak body to take?? I just don't understand. I just know I'm beyond grieved. I just feel devastated.

Arden


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm so sorry. Could she have fallen and injured herself when she jumped out of her pen? I also have another thought on what may have happened, based on what a vet told a friend when she lost a doe. He said when a goat gets acutely ill and the rumen shuts down, when the goat resumes eating there can be a release of toxins into the system. Since you have a good vet college, it may be worth it to get her necropsied. Kathie


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

OH Arden I am so very very sorry. Great big hugs from Washington. I sure was hoping the outcome would be different Theres not alot any of us can say that will heal your heart. Bummed very much for you. :sniffle Tammy


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## donna (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh no, Arden! I am so sorry... :sniffle


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## Painted Pony (Apr 12, 2009)

I am so sorry to read that you lost your girls. I understand being attached a a few special goats and while we all say "it's a business" or "they are livestock" I think we all get attached to a few. My thoughts are with you.


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

I am so sorry to hear you lost Suzie. How terribly disappointing to lose both of them!!


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## Jacquelynn (Dec 2, 2008)

Arden,
I am so sorry for your loss. I know how you feel. People who don't understand may say they are just goats but it doesn't seem to get easier. Even if you have a ton like me! Sending prayers your way.
Jacquelynn


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Do you by any chance feed alfalfa hay that is not certified blister beetle free? Vicki


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## wardarden (Aug 11, 2008)

Yes, mam. I feed an alfalfa hay that is imported from out of state. I've never heard of "blister beetle free". What is that about?

Arden


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## Sharpgoat (Feb 7, 2008)

I had blister beetle poisoning this year my goats did not have the blisters on there mouths and kids were the worst.
And one adult goat had gut problems like colic.
Fran

http://www.microvet.arizona.edu/AzVDL/infoAlerts/blisterBeetle.html


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