# can Somebody explain good/bad udders and teats to me please?



## kidsngarden (Oct 28, 2007)

OK, I know I'm just a do do head cause here I am breeding goats and not focusing on the big picture as much as I should so ya'll don't have to tell me that...

I have my nubian Capella, she is my only purebred in the bunch (also the most troublesome too!) She is my soap company's logo cause she's pretty. She's going on three years and will be in her second freshening if she takes. Threw two gorgeous boer/nubie bucks last year that were hard as heck to butcher, the cuties!

Not a huge producer for me in her first freshening, she also has tiny teats. I expect better things this year. But her udder is just WEIRD. pretty lumpy. has been from the get go. As a matter of fact when she was younger I thought I might have bought her preggers cause all of the sudden her bag was huge! Couldn't get a bit of milk out, but it was huge! I think vicki saw my picture on homesteading today and posted "nice udder, but she's not Pregnant" I was clueless. The udder went down and she was bred and all was good. But should I worry about this lumpy udder business? If she has does this year should I not hold them back becuase the lumps are BAD and past down? And the teat thing. I don't get it, will they get bigger over time or what? I have a nubian/french alpine with the most glorious nice large teats with large orifices, so nice to hand milk, but she is in her sixth pregnancy and I'm wondering did she start out finger size too? (I just aquired her this fall) The teat thing bugs me the most since I hand milk. I don't want to keep does that will always have that.

So many questions...

Bethany


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Precocious udders are often caused by some form of bacteria in the udder, also known as mastitis. From what you describe, it sounds as if the lumps are scar tissue or maybe even the bacteria walled off in the udder by the goat's own defence system. These lumps will keep the doe from reaching her potential as a milker.

Have you ever seen any abnormal milk from this goat? 
Lumps or hardened particles in the milk? 
Any strange odor or taste?
Has she been tested for CAE?

CAE will cause hard congested udders that give little or no milk.


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## Josie (Oct 26, 2007)

Several yrs ago I had a yearling who developed a precocious udder, and some very bad scarring I'm told was a result of that. She never was half as good of a milker as her littermate sister, and I ended up culling her as her udder never got better even with subsequent freshenings.  So maybe your doe has scarring too? I don't think its genetic, but would definately listen to Tim's advice and test her for CAE if she hasn't!

As far as the teat issue, some of my does will change teat size from first freshening to second. Some don't though!


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## kidsngarden (Oct 28, 2007)

She tested neg last year. But I've had a doe from the get go that was not, she was culled this fall. (we put her down :sniffle as we felt it was irresponsible to sell her knowing she was positive, she wasn't a great mom or high producer so there was no point in keeping her) I guess it's possible capella could have gotten it from Milky, and tested neg, but not likely.

Weird that she could get mastitis without having EVER been in milk?

Once she freshened she never had any infections. Not a huge producer, and her milk never tasted good - which really bugged me! I wonder if the two are related? I would like to know if precocious udders are genetic. It will have and affect on whether or not I cull her and her does.

Milky (she was La Mancha) had the tiniest teats even in her second freshening. Made me never want a La Mancha just for that reason. But the buck we bred with this year is La Mancha from a great Dairy line so I am hoping for some good genetics here...

Bethany


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Be sure and test for CAE annually. Since you had a doe with CAE do not dam raise - it is too risky. 

Her milk never tasted good and not a good producer - that is a good sign of an unhealthy udder - something wrong going on here. 

A doe who has never freshened can get mastitis - that is usually not a genetic problem. Mastitis is a foreign bacteria in the udder. The teat has an orifice which is an opening and bacteria can sometimes worm its way into the mammary. You should test for mastitis using LSU (go to goat 101). 

Tiny teats though are probably a problem with that line. You might want to keep a daughter but raise her on heat treated colostrum and milk.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Like Tim I also think alot of percocious udder that comes in uneven is staph. We have alot of even percocious udders and not one of our does (except Babette because she has never been in milk since I bought her sorry ...) is negative for staph mastitis. The lumpy bumpy and the bad tasteing milk is a sure sign.

It's easy to tell another person, sell her or eat her, quite another to do this to your only purebred. Is her paperwork any good that breeding her to your best Nubian buck, or getting one for next year would make sense to treat her now for the likely mastitis, and glean doelings for your herd off her? Or would it be cheaper for you to ditch her and start afresh with clean stock?

Even percocious udder in my herd is inhereited...for awhile I really thought it was my feeding program somehow, but we don't feed alot of soy, and now we have seen full little udders on my friends farms who have my bloodline.

It's not expensive to treat her....two dry cow infusions from the feed store...Tommorrow or another one that is labeled for staph, 4cc of 100mg gentamycin to put 2cc into each infusion, cleanly infusing her...if I do this early in the dry period I will redo it at 50 days until kidding. But honestly the lump is scarry, could also be psuedenoma's...it's why I don't guess, I have always milk tested so I know. Sorry all this is happening.

The little bitty titty thing is genetic. I have nubians with big handful sized teats, I don't even like plumb scorecard teats, I want thumbs as FF And big fat cuban cigars as 2nd fresheners....then there is Mica, little itty bitty milking machine only Mica! Yes they have gotten bigger, but so has her milk productiong and full, her teats are still way way to small  Vicki


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## kidsngarden (Oct 28, 2007)

Her milk wasn't TERRIBLE, but in my La mancha's milk really had no goaty after taste and hers did.

She is dry now. She was giving less than half what my nubie/french alpine was and since we didn't like the taste we thought we'd save on the grain. That was probably a bad choice to have her off milking so long before her next kidding if she has some kind of infection. she dried up fine, no visible problems, no heat in the teats or udder.

There's never been mucus or blood or anything in the strip cup so I really had no idea.

As far as papers, she has none. I bought her for $150 from a gal going off to college. She said she was pure but didn't have papers.

So the udder is heriditary then. That kinda' seals it up for me. I think it would be worth it to sell her. I really need to just buy a wonderful saanan or La Mancha and begin the real deal of beginning a herd that has all it's ducks in a row. I know in the end I will get higher sales for my kids, etc and it will pay off. Since I started all I have really cared about is the milk. I really want some good milking lines in there. I don't want to show or anything. But I know others would pay well for a show quality goat. 

It so much to swirl around in my head. And I confess too I have quite liked learning with goats I didn't pay an arm and a leg for.

Thanks for the advice. 

Bethany


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Bethany I made very good money with my auction barn grade goats, buying anything that looked nubian, getting them back into shape, which included shaving, wormings etc....this was before CAE and CL information...but when I saw my first herd of purebred Nubians, instead of taking just one or two of the does slated for the sale...I took everyone, all of them. Used that money to purchase a yearling, 2 milkers and 1 buckling. All Purebred ADGA registered. It was without a doubt the best decision I ever made in my life, not keeping something to grade up (which I toyed with since my breeding decisions early on did produce really nice stuff that milked). I also never wavered in the registered side of my dairy in my goals, improvement to sell kids and milkers for more money. It works. IF you could bite this bullet this spring, use the money to purchase something really nice, like a young milker with appraisal scores, a young doeling and a young buck to breed her to in the fall in the breed of your choice (ADGA registered with the purchase made with help by a mentor on this board in the breed you want). I know you will look back also, and although it was hard to get rid of my goats, I do know not kidding myself any longer that I could turn them into what I wanted wasn't really going to happen. Vicki


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## Kalne (Oct 25, 2007)

Reading this thread with interest as we are considering starting over from scratch but honestly don't know where to start. Then there's the 'pet' factor. No one wants to sell anything 'cause 'this one is so sweet' or 'this one is so pretty'. *sigh*

Kalne


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

One of the deciding factors in my choosing to breed Nubians is that they generally have larger teats with bigger orifaces than some of the other breeds. If I had a doe such as you describe, I would sell her. If she's bred, I'd CAE test her and kid her out first. If she has a doeling, that kid may have a nicer udder. It isn't unusual that your mixed breed doe makes more milk. That's the reason I keep a few recorded grades around. La Manchas don't all have small teats. Blossom has a really nice udder, teats and is easy to milk. Her teats did get bigger her second freshening. The Saanen I had and also her Snubian daughter had small teats as first fresheners and while they got somewhat larger on subsequent freshenings, they were still not as easy to milk as the other goats. I've seen teats get bigger, but I've never seen a scarred, lumpy udder improve.


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

I did exactly what was described above . I have a herd of grades , boers and a few OK reg goats. I sold everyone 2 years ago and started over. I do not regret it one bit.


Patty


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

That is some good, sound advice. Start over with good clean healthy stock from a breed that you like. I don't think you will regret that decision.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

hmm,, I have Liah, who is Micah's granddaughter, and her dam has the biggest longest nubie teats I've ever seen, I wonder and HOPE that mica rubs off on Liah's teats! lol! and Vickie You have a milk machine and I hand milk, you would think yould prefer smaller teats and me Larger. 
I spent YEARS trying to breed better goats, and when my house fire forced me into selling out, that was the best thing that ever happened to the quality of goats around here. the girls I have now even the poorest, Out milk and out shine the ones I did have pre house fire.


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## kidsngarden (Oct 28, 2007)

My husband and I were discussing this this morning. We are going to start over! Betchya' she is bred (this is the same doe with the hoof issue that's been running with a visiting buck) and if not, oh well, I will let her go sooner.

I was very attached to my Milky way who was the doe I learned to milk on and she loved me to death and I was able to let her go ok. I really am not that attached to Capella except that she is the "face" (how funny that is! Some companies want super models - I want a goat!) of my farm and soap co. logo, which I am thinking about redesigning anyway (she'll still be there but I'm looking to do less of a "picture" and more of an outline). She'd be wonderful to have in our Fourth of July parade this year as my customers totally adore her in the picture, but $$$ is taking over and also just having SUCCESS!!!! I just don't have the experience required to breed that bad out of her, you know?

So this month, pay the web marketers (how that is going to hurt!), next month car maintenance. March goat housing and fencing improvements, and april/may new young milker, and doeling. In fall we will look for a good buck to buy when everyones desperate to get rid of thier extras! 

I feel very good about this decision. I've been leaning towards Saanans (do I ever spell that right? I always forget which side the two a's are!) but I think I will read further. I really do not like the noisy nubian thing. I know, all goats are loud at times, but my La Mancha was so quiet and sweet and my nubie/saanan/french alpine is silent as stone. Her Momma is a little louder that she (more nubian and she is the queen). The La Mancha temperament is great too. But I have talked to some people who are getting out of La Mancha's here because people are turned off by the no ear thing.

So much to figure out! (gosh I say that alot on this board!)

Thanks so much for the great advice!

Bethany


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Bethany pick the breed, the one breed, you love, that you can see yourself having forever. Vicki


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Vickies right but, good luck with that. I can't do it. I give up trying..


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## kidsngarden (Oct 28, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Bethany pick the breed, the one breed, you love, that you can see yourself having forever. Vicki


So far that would have to be the La Manch, hands down! Just love them love them love them down to their little earless heads only a mother could love! But my exposure has been limited so I think I need to look more. And I have seen WAY too many La Mancha's around here with those finger teats - have seen a few with bigger ones too though!

Bethany


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## CGFarm (Nov 13, 2007)

Have you tried coppering this doe? 
Denise


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Wheytogo Saanens on here is out your way and she has some very nice Saanens and Sables.

Patty


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

If it were me and starting over where you live I would be driving to Tracy's in ID go look at her website. Awsome does. and in the spring she will be selling first fresheners like you wouldn't believe


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## kidsngarden (Oct 28, 2007)

CGFarm said:


> Have you tried coppering this doe?
> Denise


Yep!


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## kidsngarden (Oct 28, 2007)

Sondra,
Can you give me more info about Tracey please?

Bethany


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Hey Bethany -- I'm here 

You can take a look at my Website and see if anything interests you.....I'll have milking yearlings and possibly a few older does for sale in the spring -- as well as lots of kids of course.

http://www.soldiermountainalpines.bravehost.com

Thanks for mentioning me, Sondra :biggrin

Tracy


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

yep and you know Bethany when someone has some of the top 10 milking for ADGA she has some GREAT DOES


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## kidsngarden (Oct 28, 2007)

Tracey - I'm trying to view your does and having a hard time. My computer doesn't like your site I guess - I finally got satellite internet here, but it doesn't help to much when you have a PC that needs more RAM!

alpines! I don't know why I seem to have forgotten about them. My very first goats where alpines. (and I have two that are part alpine right now!) They were given to me by a gal who said they were nubian but one look and I thought, Huh? The Momma was a papered alpine, and the baby was tattooed so she was something, but I never got the papers for her. Momma had teats that were like human nipples, lucky for me I never milked her! We sold her right off and wanted to breed baby, but alas she died because I was even less knowledgable about goats then and didn't worm her! my poor dd was so attached to her. She would love another alpine and they were nice goats. I'll definetely look into this!

Bethany


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