# CAE experiences, thoughts



## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

Ok, just wanting to gather some info for my own peace of mind . We currently have a negative herd, and have never had a goat test positive on our farm. However, a doeling that was sold as a day old is positive after being fed pos milk (duh), another doe we purchased as a 5 month old (weaned), she was tested negative here as an 8month old and sold as a yearling. She has converted to positive at 2 on another farm, this doe was fed raw from a neg dam, and the farm where she lives has one other positive, ( was this milk, or contact????).
So, my question for all of you, especially those that had goats when first discovering CAE.
Were you quarantining as a precaution or just pasteurizing? Has anyone ever had a goat convert to pos when you were 100% sure of milk/upbringing?
I know there is both sides of the milk vs contact as a form of passing it. But just out of curiosity, I want to hear some discussion on this as well as experiences with actual pos animals. I am a firm believer that basically milk is the culprit, but witg some current situations am just curious about experiences with contact to positive animals. 
All discussion greatly appreciated, and welcomed! !
~Patina


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Obviously, the first one got it from the positive milk. The second one probably got it from stealing a sip of milk from the positive doe. If the kids are being dam-raised and there are positive animals living on the farm, they need to be separate. Kids will take sips here and there from does other than their dam. Even if the other does are not allowing it, all it takes is one drop of CAE+ milk to infect the kid.


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

That wasnt my question Nancy, I was looking for imput from those who have dealt with CAE and their experiencewith it. Also these are 2 different goats from 2 different farms if you read my first post. Doeling #1 sold as a day old, fed pos milk from buyers goats. Doe #2 I purchased from totally.different farm/area WEANED, from a neg herd, bottle raised on raw from its own neg dam, converted to pos OFF my farm, I have NO pos. So while im curious about thoughts on doe #2 I wasn't looking for diagnosis on these specific goas.t


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

doeling #1 BORN here and I sold as a day old bottle baby


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## Holly Govero (Mar 26, 2009)

It sounded like the doe was under stress and stuff and it can cause the readings become not accurate. OR what if the other farm do have CAE postive in there and that caused that doe become postive.


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

J-Basqo said:


> SO MY QUSETION IS, all of you, especially those that had goats when first discovering CAE.
> Were you quarantining as a precaution or just pasteurizing? Has anyone ever had a goat convert to pos when you were 100% sure of milk/upbringing?
> I know there is both sides of the milk vs contact as a form of passing it. But just out of curiosity, I want to hear some discussion on this as well as experiences with actual pos animals. I am a firm believer that basically milk is the culprit, but witg some current situations am just curious about experiences with contact to positive animals.
> All discussion greatly appreciated, and welcomed! !
> ~Patina


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

> *All *discussion greatly appreciated, and welcomed! !


If you are going to put this in your post, then just be patient when you get some discussion regarding your situation that might not directly answer your questions, eh? 

So here's the million dollar question: Are you REALLY 100% sure of milk/upbringing on doe #2? You may well be, but I'd be curious as to the reasons for having this level of confidence.


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

ya, i thought of that a minute ago. My intentions were ton start discussion on how people have experienced or define how the disease is spread, not about those two goats, I was using those i as an illustration as to what promted my researching. So to rephrase, those that have run CAE goats , do you quarantine ? Do you run them with your goats? Has anyone had a goat they thought contracted CAE thru contact?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Exactly Stacey  How do you know it's a negative herd, did you see the whole herd negative tests on the goats before you purchased your doeling? Did you test the doeling when you got her and the test was negative, certainly very very low if not zero? You then and only then would know she actually converted.

I had lots of goats in the 80's who converted to positive when I tested them the first time...because a lot of breeders are big fat liars :rofl

The first doe is obviously positive from drinking positive milk at the new farm.

Doe 2 tested positive because she always was.

In my herd of kids I raised myself on heat treated colostrum and pasteurised milk, we have never had a goat convert. Vicki


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

When I first started in goats in the 1970's CAE symptoms were known in the goat world but we did not know what it was. When I re-emerged in the goat world in the late 1980's and early 90's there was lots of talk about CAE and its spread and how to prevent it. There were still lots of breeders who were in denial and thought it was just something that goats got! Many of the old time breeders sold out and quit when they found out what they would have to do to clean up their herds. 
I first started testing with Pan American Labs who used the agid test instead of the elisa. The test results from Pan American came back clean and clear from CAE. My Vet (a cow vet) assured me that CAE was probably an over blowed scare and it was probably rare anyway. Lured to sleep, I pooled raw milk and fed it to my kids. I purchased some other goats from a nearby breeder who also used PAL and their goats were negative also on the agid test but were later found to be positive by WSU. 

Some kids I sold then came back CAE positive when tested by WSU. I refunded the monies on these goats and replaced others and sent blood off to WSU on all of my herd. (Fortunately, I had only a few of my goats who had been fed raw milk.) When the test results came back, I found that I had several expensive does who were positive for CAE. These were butchered. The rest of the goats never were affected by their exposure to the positive animals. From that time, we test the herd on an annual basis but have not had another positive animal.


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

No, Im not sure of her upbringing . And yes very neg here she tested a 3 on her titer. However ,speaking to her breeder they were sure she had to catch it somewhere else (which I dont believe). Recently read of another farm crop up with pos goats after years of bein neg and bringing in a new goat that turned pos. Hence "digging deeper" , leaving those goats out of the equation, I wanted to hear people's onsite experience as Ive already read till my eyes bled! lol So sorry.Im.short but Im so frustrated with the lack of conclusion on CAE(no ones fault, we just truly still dont understand cae ) and my real question kept getting missed!


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

Tim, when you had the positives, how long were the negatives exposed to them?
And how close quarters were they? What kind of ratio positive to negative did you
have?

I have read that the higher your ratio, the more likely it is that some who are 
exposed will convert later. That is why I asked that.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

My buck Eric lived and bred 2 pens of nearly all positive does during breeding season, he never converted, he was tested for the last time Elissa via a vet who used him in her herd when he was 9.

I would never keep positive in with my negatives if I let kids nurse. I would never keep positive bucks in with negative bucks, fighting is blood to blood contact.

My story is similar to Tim's except that my first tests were via Texas A&M who still only tests AGID...but instead of putting down my positives I not only kept mine and milked them but purchased does from herds of Nubian's known to milk well, most picked up for a song as they tested positive for CAE. They all lived in quarantine. We now know many herds put down animals who were either positive for mycoplasma or never did have CAE because of the AGID tests. Vicki


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks guys! Im very happy with the discussion. I appologize for being impatient . I had myself all worked up over everything ! I will sit back and enjoy the convo now


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

I think that you also have to consider that since these goats were no longer under your management it really is impossible to know what happened.

What if the folks with the #2 goat weren't careful about shots? As in, they readily used needles from one goat to another at CDT shots or Bo-Se etc. What about drenching syringes? Not likely, but sure would increase the %.
Also, both WSU and Biotracking say that CAE tests on young stock are not always conclusive. So a test at 8 months and then not tested again until the doe was 2....she may have tested Positive after her first kidding (after the age of 1 year old).

Finally, a few breeders that I have spoken with have had one or two positive does in their herd without any of their other goats converting. The doe(s) were 8 and 9 at the time and were asymptomatic. Science, no. 
Personally, I think that if you really want to eliminate CAE in your herd that you keep positive and negatives separate - you milk your positives last. You don't use the milk to feed kids - and you pasteurize the negative animals' milk as a precaution, in case a negative doe converts. 

No good stories for you - we were fortunate to start in goats with folks who were CAE fanatics and who clearly and unequivocally explained what CAE was and how we absolutely positively did NOT want that for our goats. (I just cringe for folks who were lied to or told it was no big deal).


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks Camille, those were kind of my thoughts as well, but got to stressing, if those 2 instances (the neg herd with multiple converts, and my neg yearlings that converted after sale) really got it from CONTACT , what about shows, buying new goats, my goats that were with that yearling! lol I was having some panics over it!  happy to say tho Got NEGATIVE CAE results back this evening !!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I have a CAE+ doe. She is going to be 2 years old this year. As a milking yearling, she was separate from the herd while in milk and milked last. Her milk was never used for kids. She is living with the others at the moment, but she is dry, one month from kidding. When she kids, she will be in a kidding pen with walls, rather than just fencing, and will then be separated from the others while in milk. If she has bucklings, I may let her raise them, or I will put some bummer lambs on her this year for butchering, so that I hopefully won't even have to milk her for at least some of her lactation. Last year, she gave me twin bucklings...I'm hoping this year she has a doeling for me! I love my girl, and she is symptom-free, so I may just hold onto her a little while longer, even though it is a pain in the patooty to have her separate from the others. All of my other goats that live with her have tested negative to date (I just had them tested a couple weeks ago).


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

Interesting . Thanks Nancy!


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I had positives running with negatives because I hadn't heard of testing yet. The + herd was a herd of very nice, well bred Saanens and Nubians who belonged to my farm hand. 

My Alpine herd was clean, the breeder did understand CAE and they all came from her. The other herd was supposedly clean but when a kid was born and developed encephalitis, and most of the does freshened with rock hard udders, I tested and found they were +. I got rid of the Saanen and Nubian herd that belonged to the hired guy because shortly before they started kidding he snuck away in the middle of the night, taking his family and some belongings but leaving the goats. (long story short, he had been sexually abusing my 2 oldest sons).

All in all, my herd and his herd had been together for almost a year. After all that happened, I retested. Mine were still negative. Back then, because I ran all the goat milk into the bulk tank with the cow milk, my kids were all pulled at birth and bottle fed cows milk along with the calves.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Some positive animals lived with the herd perhaps a year or so. In a herd of less than 10 we had about 3 positives. I made a decision that I didn't want the risk of any possible contamination. I too am a fanatic about CAE and CL as both are an infectious diseases. I thought more about reputation and having a clean herd. I cringed at the thought of the pain I would bring to a new owner who might possibly buy a diseased animal from me. While some may have good luck at keeping CAE does or bucks and keeping them and their milk separate, I just didn't have the time or facilities to do it.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

When I was first into goats, I got them from a commercial dairy and some tested positive. I kept one buck for a breeding season to keep his genetics and sold the rest of the positives for meat. I didn't test my Boer cross, Isis at the time and we kept her. Years later when I had the vet come out and test the whole herd after I bought a supposedly negative doe who turned out positive, Isis tested positive. I don't think she got it as an adult. Isis was the daughter of an untested doe. She nursed her dam and was also fed the raw colostrum of another untested doe. I'm sure she was positive from infancy. She never showed any CAE symptoms and never spread it to the other goats. She was eleven years old when tested. I chose to put her down. This was not just due to her CAE status. She had contracted a uterine infection and even after antibiotics was unable to conceive. As a result, she got obese and her rear pasterns broke down.
The new goat I had brought in was out of a Spotlight Sale doe my friend purchased. That goat was tested prior to the sale and was out of a well known herd that tests and has been negative for years. Her kids had been dam raised. I tested my doe because she had a hard udder. I then noticed that her dam had a swollen knee and also had a hard udder. I sent my positive doe back to live in her breeder's quatantine pen. I spoke to the well known breeder and she thought the doe she sold there may have been sabotaged at Convention by being fed raw milk. Another doe I bought at the same time out of a negative dam also tested positive. We still don't know how that happened. She still shows no symptoms and will be retested. She also was moved to the quarantine pen. Before being tested, she gave birth to a daughter and nursed her for the first couple days. The daughter has tested negative and het titer went down to a 2 on her last test. I talked to the vet at WSU and he told me that for some unknown reason, some kids never catch CAE from their dam's milk. I'm retesting both goats because I'm wondering if the dam had a false positive. In any case, neither doe will be dam raising any doelings or breeding bucklings. They only get to raise wethers for butcher.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

It is totally ridiculous to me that someone would purposefully infect someone else's goats. It just makes me sad that anybody would be so cruel.


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## Judys (Feb 19, 2009)

We had a CAE positive doe titer of 89. She lived with the others till she was put down. All other were and have continued to be negative.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

All I know is running a CAE+ milking animal, even if they are non-symptomatic, is alot of work
Not worth my time, no matter the genetics.
Tam


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> All I know is running a CAE+ milking animal, even if they are non-symptomatic, is alot of work
> Not worth my time, no matter the genetics.


My sentiments exactly. It is not worth the time or the risk.



> I spoke to the well known breeder and she thought the doe she sold there may have been sabotaged at Convention by being fed raw milk.


I personally think that most of these animals are sabotaged at home by the breeders who even when discovered are not taking responsibility for their lack of herd health. While I have heard horror stories of people taking pliers and bruising and tearing the udders of competitors so that they could get advantage in the show ring, I have never had those kind of experiences from fellow dairy goat people. Most of them love goats and would not do anything to harm your goat in order to win. The day I have to harm someone else's goat to win in a show ring is the day I quit. There would be no joy or sense of accomplishment in a win like that.


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## Polopony (Dec 24, 2011)

Though it has not happened to me, my neighbor has had someone feed CAE+ milk to her kids at a show. She had and has a closed herd, tested every year, only bought tested animals and quarantined any new animals. She now keeps her kids in a large crate inside the stalls at all shows now so they are not easily accessible. It makes me sad that anyone would think about doing this. So now I am a little anal about our goats. We do both 4-H and open shows so have to educate the locals at the fair about biosecurity. Sorry to ramble.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Annetta, she does not have a closed herd if she is showing Closed means no one comes in and no one goes out. Not even for show. Feed another herds kids contaminated milk...if this happens, may they be struck down with a condition of slug skin! UGH!

I used to be very apprehensive about showing too but with everything comes risk. I am more afraid of rolling my trailer than having someone corrupt my goats!
Tam


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

My question would be... how can you PROVE some one did that ?? Did you see it happen ? I would more inclined to think something else happened. ie, picked it up from a mis pasteurized batch at home , got a wound etc, sounds like a smooth cover story to me for someone who dorsnt want to admit they are at fault . I sure wouldn't put it past a creep to *try* but seems pretty improbable that it actually happens that way.


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## dreamfirefarm (Nov 15, 2011)

My experiences are similiar, Years ago, 1980 I think when I realized that CAE was a serious health concern for my goats, I started pastuerizing. I had a mostly pos herd then. And as the kids grew I didnt seperate them. well most converted laterin life except one that lived to 17 and stayed negative . But I really believe she was the exception , not the rule. The rest really didnt stay neg till i soerated completely no water sharing or fenc line. And I still have a neg herd today. So even tho I thought it was OK to run all the does together at first I really dont think so now. You could get lucky but I wouldnt put money on it.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

When I first started in goats,I had a spotted Nubian doe she kidded and looked healthy ,then the next year,we tested the herd and she was pregnant again and tested CAE+ and looked scruffy untidy, I culled her 2 previous does as she dam raised them and I had planned on pulling kids and culling her when she delivered in a few months but she just kept going down and aborted,she wouldn't eat,got down and couldn't get up so :down she was put down. Now I am a fanatic ! Especially on CL as it spreads among the herd. CAE is mostly controllable BUT ... I WONT drink the raw milk from either CL or CAE positive doe !!
I wont waste my time with a CAE+ and I RUN FAST from any that appear to be CL+. I always test for both !!!
When you don't know what you have in your herd is a BIG worry but when you test and have clean/disease Free results .... is such a relief !!!
I know that tests are not perfect BUT just like a Dr. does tests on us for certain stuff. Testing is worth it to me as what else do we have to go by except blood !!


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