# Help me troubleshoot please



## swgoats

So I tried my first batch of goat milk cp soap (normally I make plain soap and hand mill in goat milk as a separate step). I like to make Castille with a bit of coconut, but to save money I adjusted the recipe to use some crisco. Used the calculator at thesage.com and used 5% super fat. I used 50/50 gm/water. I mixed the lye and water the night before, and added cold milk to it when I went to soap. I heated the crisco and coconut just to melt then added the olive oil. I poured in the mold at a light trace. I insulated with a towel. It never got very warm. It is fairly cold and dry in our house. I'm sure it did not go through a gel phase.

So the trouble is a soft white layer formed on top - it looks like ash but it is soft - creamy but caustic. This is the first time I've ever used tap water. Could that be a factor? When I unmolded, the bottom was pretty hard no soft like the top is, and there was a little brown water. So what happened? Does it sound like there was a little separation of the lye and oils? Or does it sound like the had too much lye? What can I tweak for next time?


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## hsmomof4

Did it seem to trace fairly quickly? It sounds to me like everything was pretty cool and maybe you got a false trace (where it thickens up because it's cold, not because it's saponifying, can happen when you use a fair amount of solid oils and they aren't heated much, adding cold milk to already cooled lye water meant that that was pretty cold.) I would rebatch it if you want to try to save it. Put EVERYTHING into a crock pot or enameled roaster and cook until it looks kind of like vaseline and everything is soft again, plop into molds.


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## 2Sticks

Hi Angie,
I think Stacey is right. I know when I mix my lye & water in advanced (I don't use tap water). If it's cold in the room, I warm my oils just a little bit so they are not quite opaque and then add room temp or a little warmer milk into my oils and stick blend them together before I add the lye water. I would rebatch just like Stacey suggested


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## swgoats

No, I wouldn't say it traced quickly. I stirred it for about an hour and a half, which is about normal for me with Castille. I don't have a mixer, I stir by hand while I watch TV. The pot was warm to the touch. The lye heated some when I added the milk. Normally with Castille I stir oil into it twice after molding before it sets up. But this set up without separation. I don't think I'm ready to say it needs to be rebatched. The soap on the bottom is beautiful. There's about 1/8th an inch of softer soap on top. I want to see if it will cure first. We could just use this soap at home. But I want to figure out what went wrong before I start the next batch. Sounds like maybe I needed to keep it warmer longer.


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## swgoats

Here are some photos..


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## swgoats

Other side


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## Anita Martin

What do you mean that you stir oil into it twice? Are you adding oil in the mold? And by castille, do you mean a high olive oil soap? It sounds to me like the soaps did not get to full trace. I've never tried to make soap without a stick blender but yikes, that is a long time to stir! I made a batch last week with a lye/water solution that was about a month old. I don't know what happened, but it didn't get very hard at all and actually has some oil squishing out of it. I normally use 100% goats milk so I may not be used to doing it this way. I've had soap turn out the way your soap looks and I ended up rebatching some of it and making laundry soap out of the rest. I just don't think it came to a true trace.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Agreed, you can't soap room temp or barely melty butters in cold temps. I also can't dump cold milk into my soap bucket this time of year, I nuke it for a few minutes first. My lye/water mixture is room temp, so my butters and coconut oil has to be melted. Anything that zaps isn't a failure of recipe it's a failure of technique. Recipe failures that break, ash, or pill like this (clays, and to much colorant, will do that to you). 

You have to also remember that most olive oil manufactured or outright sold with USA labels, are soybean oil adulterated. The only way to know for sure that it is olive is to have a out of country manufacture, bottler and label. I have not had any problems with pomace from columbus foods, but I have from the big can jugs at Sams and super walmart, they are not 100% olive oil no matter what that label says, they trace way to quickly to be real, they also make brittle edges of the soap. Vicki


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## swgoats

Anita Martin said:


> What do you mean that you stir oil into it twice? Are you adding oil in the mold? And by castille, do you mean a high olive oil soap?


By Castille I mean 100% or almost 100% olive oil. The book I learned from explained to stir the olive oil back in if it separates in the mold - a special instruction for olive oil soap only. I've always done it that way, and it's always done well.

OK - I think the problem here was I let it cool too much during stirring and didn't keep it warm enough in the mold. I mixed the goat milk directly in the lye water and it heated up, and I warmed the oils to around 80, but not heating it to 100 like I normally do, it likely cooled too much while I was sitting in the living room stirring. I was pushing the envelope trying not to heat the milk too much.

I always sit in the living room and stir slowly, but I usually start with it warmer.


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## MF-Alpines

I agree with everyone else; it sounds like you didn't reach trace.

How come I can't see the pictures?


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## swgoats

Well, I rebatched it into milk and honey. Turned orange cause the lye was still active, so I added honey and more milk, and sprinkled oatmeal on top. I think it will be a nice soap. I washed my hands with what was left on the pot, and it had a nice creamy lather. Going to give it another go tonight to try to get nice white gm soap - well, actually tomorrow, going to mix lye tonight. I had to hunt lye down today. I didn't have enough for another batch.


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## Anita Martin

Your oils should never, even using olive oil, ever separate in the mold if the batch has traced properly and not over or under heated. Separation has nothing to do with it being all olive oil. The soap is simply not saponifying like it should. Once it's in the mold, the process continues, separation indicates that it has stopped. When adding your milk, I would add it at emulsion, or to the oils once the lye water has started reacting to the oils in your pot and make sure it has been warmed a little...and make sure your lye water is cooled. Hope this helps!


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## Anita Martin

A stick blender is cheap at walmart and will give you much more consistent results in a lot less time. It's something to do with the high speed blending that kind of forces your oils and liquids into combining with each other.


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## swgoats

The book is "The Complete Soapmaker" by Norma Coney, instructions for olive oil castille
"The wrapped primary mold must be checked twice a day. To do this, carefully unwrap the mold and uncover the soap. You are likely to notice a thin layer of oil on top. Using your wooden spoon, carefully stir this layer of oil back into the soap, then replace the lid and rewrap the mold. Repeat this process once every 12 hours or so until the layer of oil no longer forms. Then proceed as usual."

I've followed this method many many times, and it has always produced properly sponified soap in the end. I imagine the separation probably does not happen with a stick blender if that results in a harder trace.

I like that book alot. Beautiful photos - but be careful of the older versions. It had a misprint about adding the water to the lye, eek. Not everyone likes her book, but it's been my go to.


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## swgoats

Here's the milk and honey soap - looks like dessert, lol. Smells like graham crackers to me - no fragrance added, just from the ingredients. I added oatmeal to the top and swirled my fingers through it.


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## swgoats

The bottom of it...


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## smithurmonds

I like the oats on top like that, Angie. I do an "almost castille" soap with 80% olive oil and never had it separate. I don't know if that would change if it was pure OO, but it never behaved for me any differently than my other recipes other than taking a long time to trace.


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## MF-Alpines

swgoats said:


> The book is "The Complete Soapmaker" by Norma Coney, instructions for olive oil castille
> "The wrapped primary mold must be checked twice a day. To do this, carefully unwrap the mold and uncover the soap. You are likely to notice a thin layer of oil on top. Using your wooden spoon, carefully stir this layer of oil back into the soap, then replace the lid and rewrap the mold. Repeat this process once every 12 hours or so until the layer of oil no longer forms. Then proceed as usual."


That sounds like a bunch of hogwash to me!


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## smithurmonds

It's also interesting that it should be checked twice per day, when even my 80% OO soap comes out of the mold at 24 hours no problem.


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## swgoats

Are you all using a stick blender? I'm thinking you probably get a harder trace from that. With the light trace, the processed is slowed. I usually stir it down twice, then it is solid, and I leave it in the mold another day before unmolding. It is still plenty soft to cut. I should run the recipe she gives through a calculator. It might be super fatted more too. I've never had any issue with it going rancid. Lol, interesting conversation. That's my book, so I assumed that was how Castille was done. It's behaved that way every single time, and the soap is great.


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## smithurmonds

No, I don't have an immersion blender. I use a regular hand mixer for small batches and a paint mixing attachment for the drill on batches over 5 lbs. I'm not getting past a light trace on my high OO blend because I'm not that patient.


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## Anita Martin

That is an absolutely crazy way to make soap  The authors of soap books are really not motivated to make sure you are making great soap...they will sell you all kinds of recipes and crazy ways of making soap that are just plain inaccurate. I have several books too that if I used their recipe's I could not make good soap. They would be soft, and nasty. One of my books says that milk soaps are "grainy". Another book says that it takes "only drops" of essential oils to scent a batch of soap. Another says a bunch of hog wash about superfatting with all kinds of expensive oils. One says to never, ever, scrape the sides of the soap pot with no explanation of why. (I'm guessing they are not dissoving their lye properly and it's sticking to the sides of the pot) I'd toss the book and relearn here


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## Anita Martin

On the rational side of things....regardless of the recipe, how do you keep from stirring up the liner into the soap? Do they go over that? And what about a pretty swirled top on the soap? How do you keep from messing up your swirled top when you have to re-stir in the mold? If that recipe is causing the soap to have to be re-stirred in the mold time after time, it's not a good recipe. Here is the 100% olive oil recipe I use that works. 36 oz olive oil, 4.63 oz lye, 12 oz frozen milk cubes. This is a smaller recipe that goes into a 3" PVC pipe mold and saponifies just fine without additional stirring in the mold.


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## 2Sticks

A stick/immersion blender can be picked up at most any thrift store for 4-5 dollars. Makes soaping so much easier! I just can't believe what that book is saying about stirring in a layer of oil. That's crazy. With them giving you whacky instructions like that no wonder you've had some problems. We're here to help you though


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## smithurmonds

I never thought to look at the thrift store, Tamera! Good call.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Nicki, I have several sets of my small Brun's that I don't use anymore and will never go back to the small household type stick blenders, want one? Just email me your address. I will look tonight how many I have so if anyone else doesn't have a stick blender and truly has a need, just tell me. I don't ship until Monday and Tuesday though. They eaisly stick blend 7 pounds in a 2 gallon bucket. Vicki


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## smithurmonds

Sure, Vicki! I'm happy to paypal you for shipping, just let me know how much!


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## swgoats

To answer your questions Anita - I don't use a mold liner, so I have never had any trouble disturbing it. I use a plastic tub mold. I don't know what you mean by a swirled top. Do you mean using dyes? I don't use dyes in castille. I like it for it's purity. I have really sensitive skin.

This was my first bum batch of soap in ten years of soap making. It was bound to happen sometime.  I'm confident it happened cause I soaped too cold. I just wanted it to be as white as possible, so I experimented with colder temperatures. It makes sense that the solid oils probably started solidifying before I reached trace. Kind of silly mistake, but I just wasn't thinking that way. I was thinking - keep it cool so the milk stays white.


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## MF-Alpines

If you want white, ditch the milk. Or have a weak lye solution strength with a long, long cure.


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## smithurmonds

I make color swirls with things like cocoa powder, spirulina, and paprika. No dyes necessary.


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## hsmomof4

Or clay! I love clay in soap. You can also do other natural colorants like indigo, alkanet, annatto, etc.


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## Anita Martin

By swirls I mean swirls that you make on top of your soap with a chop stick or whatever you use. You know, your design unique to you? I use a chopstick. Sometimes I have to let the soap sit for about 20 minutes while I'm working on another batch before it's set up enough to put the swirl on it. I'd hate it if I had to mess up my swirl and end up with an ugly top


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## swgoats

That's neat; I've never heard of that! Well, I made my crisco, coconut, olive recipe again last night. I decided just to change one thing and see what happened, so I stuck with the cold milk into the room temp lye, but I heated the oils to over a 100 degrees and insulated the pot while I stirred, and I stirred until I got a medium trace. Still took a long time with my wooden spoon, but it come out right. It is solid in the mold today. It's a light almond colored.


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## Anita Martin

You could add some heat to the pot and make hot processed soap. You don't have to stir it all the time and it takes about an hour and it doesn't need to cure more than a couple of days.


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## swgoats

Well, I'm back to my old ways. Lol. Turns out I have no real talent for rough cutting bars (I don't have a loaf mold and don't want to invest in one yet). After messing with the soap for a week, I've ended up grating it up and hand milling it into individual molds. The nice thing is I've discovered this to be a really nice recipe for milling. It melts down smooth really easily.


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## swgoats

*Well I finally managed to get white soap...*

The cream soap is what I milled last night. It looks good. I was happy with it. I went to do another batch using the same soap this morning, and it acted completely different. It got thick like mashed potatoes and no matter how much I tried to get it to pourable stage, it refused. Finally I got out the mixer and made floating soap. . It's white!


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## swgoats

Anita Martin said:


> You could add some heat to the pot and make hot processed soap. You don't have to stir it all the time and it takes about an hour and it doesn't need to cure more than a couple of days.


Well, tonight I made a batch and let the oils get quite hot before adding the lye water and milk. The milk turned darker, but it traced medium-hard REALLY quickly with just a spoon stir. (Well, I originally thought I had just done cp at a higher temp, but it went through the expansion phase like hp, so I had to finish out that way... still very quick and easy.). We'll see how quickly it cures. I've turned to milling in extra milk, so maybe I'll just cut the milk out at this step. It was by far the quickest batch of soap I've ever made!

Soap balls are my newest fascination. I happened onto an easy way to make them during hand milling. I let the milled soap cool enough to be molded into balls then roll them in grated soap. This batch I want to mill in some green clay to make green balls...


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