# Successful removal of Urinary Calculi



## Bluere11e (Feb 10, 2013)

A few weeks back, I went out to feed. By beloved Oberhasli buck, Sunny, was standing off by himself.. Uh Oh! I went to check on him and he was moaning softly.. I brought him into the barn to look him over and he started to stand like a sawhorse and bleating. I checked his sheath, it was wet and there was a few dribbles, but no pee. I started a drench of 2 teaspoons of Ammonium Chloride, and started walking him. Unfortunately, I have no Vet in my area that will do goats, and the only one that would even consider it, was out of town. What to do, my boy can't pee? He's straining and crying. (I had lost a young buckling the same way 20 years ago and it was horrific) So, I chatted with another goatie friend and she said, get his penis out and check the tip, he may need to have it clipped off. My DH and I squashed my poor, suffering goat into a sitting position and I poked, squeezed and prodded to try to get it out of the sheath. No dice. crap.
We stood him back up and walked him around. a few drops came out, no more.. he was still in pain. I left him out and went upstairs to do more research and call some other seasoned goat friends and a few other vets that MIGHT help. No one had any answers. So, about an hour later, My DH and I went back out and I grit my teeth and was determined to get his penis out to inspect it. I stroked, and pinched, and bent and pulled.. anything to try to get the end out.. I even went as far back towards his testicles thinking that If I could feel something, maybe I could work it out. I started getting a little more aggressive with the pinching and bending and there was an audible crunch about 2" back from the sheath opening. Blood started coming out. All I could think was I broke his poor weenie. He was visibly in more pain, so we took him outside the barn, fearing the worst. My DH had in idea. DH likes to mark his territory and when Sunny used to see him do that, he would pee too. DH started making rain and Sunny tried to join in. It went from blood droplets, to dark orange drops, to lighter orangey pink droplets, then a pink trickle.. I reached back up under him and massaged and squeezed some more, working out towards the tip.. I could feel grains of sand moving.. when I stopped, more pee would dribble out.. after about 15 minutes of literally, touch and go, he started having a little bit more than just a trickle.. but not much.. he stayed slowly leaking for about 15 minutes with his eyes closed.. the puddle under him was really pink, but it was a puddle. The next day, another dose of Ammonium Chloride.. every day for a week.. now he gets it weekly (7gm mixed with 2oz warm water, then 1 oz light Karo syrup all in a turkey baster.. he sucks it right down) he has been peeing freely since and My Dh has made it a late night ritual to stop by Sunny's pasture and together they mark their territory I don't know if this would work for everybody, but Prayers and hands on certainly helped in this case.
His diet is Tifton Bermuda grass, Orchard grass and Brome, plus browse and a no grain, low starch horse pellet (Manna Pro 11%) with a handful of BOSS,Alfalfa pellets and Manna Pro Balancer. He has free choice minerals, baking soda and salt and everyday, all my goats get fresh water with added Stress Dex because it is so hot here in South Florida.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Bluere11e, I moved this because it was in the wrong place (the section where it was is for technical help with the forum, rather than help with goats). Hopefully now more people will be able to see it. Also, if you would please update your signature line to reflect your location and the breed(s) of goats that you raise, that would be great.


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## Bluere11e (Feb 10, 2013)

hsmomof4 said:


> Bluere11e, I moved this because it was in the wrong place (the section where it was is for technical help with the forum, rather than help with goats). Hopefully now more people will be able to see it. Also, if you would please update your signature line to reflect your location and the breed(s) of goats that you raise, that would be great.


I use an iPad. I went to settings and added my location and breed. I hope I did it correctly. 
Thank you

Sunny So. FL/ Oberhaslis


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Glad to hear your boy is better and thank you so much for sharing your story. And kudos to you for working so hard to get those stones out. I am not sure I would have had the strength to do it!
I would like to mention though that removing the grain pellets from your boys diet will likely remove the cause of the stones forming in the first place. Goats need a higher calcium to phosphorus ratio in their diet. Lots of grass hay plus grain gets the balance off.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Bluere11e, yes, it's fine. Thanks!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Or add in more alfalfa hay/pellets.


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## Bluere11e (Feb 10, 2013)

Thanks for your reply. Ill cut back on any pellets, unless it's a tiny amount of alfalfa. I hope it helps. 


Top Flight Farms in Sunny So. FL./ Oberhaslis


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## janner (Nov 3, 2012)

I thought that baking soda could be a cause of urinary calculi?


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Urinary calculi are always formed because something about the chemistry in the animal or human is off. With goats it is usually because there is too much phosphorus coming in the diet. But also the ph has to be at a certain point for the chrystals to form. (That is why ammonium chloride is given) So I guess in certain situations, like maybe where baking soda is the only form of salt being given, they might eat so much of it that it alters their ph and makes them prone to stones. I have never heard of that though. Maybe someone will chime in about that.


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## janner (Nov 3, 2012)

*baking soda*

I looked into the baking soda and UC connections and found that baking soda raises PH in tummy and ammonium chloride lowers it. So, my conclusion is that non-emergency consumption of baking soda is probably not a good ideas for our males, be they wether or buck.

I also know that clover can upset the ph and cause UC and read that oxalates can...I don't know what an oxalate are, but I imagine it's plants that mess with the ph.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Oxolates are in some plant material, like beet pulp. The most common cause of crystals is too much phosphorus, but there are others, like inorganic calcium in your water etc. I have stopped feeding a regular mineral to my bucks. They get redmond salt which has natural trace minerals in it and kelp. Thinking about giving them replamin. But they browse much of the year in the woods so they get lots of good stuff that way. My does won't range like that.


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## jdavenport (Jul 19, 2012)

I'm glad you were able to help your guy. Here's a little more info to help.

Oxalates are the organic acids that are in every living thing and bind with calcium to form most kidney stones in people.
Goats can have a few different kinds like silicate calculi, from grass hay and grain, with not enough calcium; oxalate calculi from salt-loving plants; calcium calculi from an exclusively subterranean clover diet; phosphate calculi from too much grain and too much magnesium.( from Goat Medicine by Smith and Sherman)

Ammonium chloride acidifies the urine, which helps maintain the urinary tract. Baking soda raises the pH in the rumen, not the urine.

With all of that said, you don't need to offer salt, loose mineral and baking soda. They really just need a great loose mineral. Most goats don't need a ton of salt and most mineral mixes have at least 15% salt, which is plenty. Baking soda only needs to be offered if you're pushing lots of grain for production, or your hay isn't the best, or your goats have access to fresh grass and tend to overeat, like my does. They aren't fat, just well conditioned 

I use alfalfa mix hay and still feed nearly 3 pounds of alfalfa pellets to each doe each day, just to keep the calcium phosphorus ratio near 3:1.

Being so far south you might have to look into perennial peanut hay or some other alternative hay to supplement your calcium, alfalfa could be really expensive and hard to keep fresh.

You want to make sure your goats have plain water along with the stress dex/water. Stress Dex calcium to phosphorus ratio is 2 to 1.6.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

To clarify what Jennifer said, oxalates bind with calcium and form kidney stones in people, but you need adequate dietary calcium so that oxalates in the diet bind with calcium in the intestines and do not enter into the blood stream to bind with calcium in the kidneys instead. And although oxalates are present in many foods, only some sources seem to cause problems for people (specifically, beets, spinach, rhubarb, strawberries, nuts, chocolate, tea, wheat bran, and dry beans, except lima) prone to stones. Oxalates are also the end product of Vitamin C metabolism, so excessive Vitamin C can also cause problems. For people, other factors for kidney stone formation include too much protein, too much sodium, and not enough fluids in the diet. Obviously, goats aren't people, but I think that this information is still helpful.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Gah, I drink tea like crazy, like almost a gallon a day sometimes. I guess I'm not prone to kidney stones! 

Gall stones are another story...


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Great save! It's a good thing guys like to pee outside or you might never have known that your boy likes to mark after your hubby! I send my sons out to pee along the fence line to keep wild animals away, but I have never had them pee near the bucks. hehehe


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## Jo D (Aug 1, 2019)

Thank u for posting and sharing this. U may have very well helped save my goat Nigel!



Bluere11e said:


> A few weeks back, I went out to feed. By beloved Oberhasli buck, Sunny, was standing off by himself.. Uh Oh! I went to check on him and he was moaning softly.. I brought him into the barn to look him over and he started to stand like a sawhorse and bleating. I checked his sheath, it was wet and there was a few dribbles, but no pee. I started a drench of 2 teaspoons of Ammonium Chloride, and started walking him. Unfortunately, I have no Vet in my area that will do goats, and the only one that would even consider it, was out of town. What to do, my boy can't pee? He's straining and crying. (I had lost a young buckling the same way 20 years ago and it was horrific) So, I chatted with another goatie friend and she said, get his penis out and check the tip, he may need to have it clipped off. My DH and I squashed my poor, suffering goat into a sitting position and I poked, squeezed and prodded to try to get it out of the sheath. No dice. crap.
> We stood him back up and walked him around. a few drops came out, no more.. he was still in pain. I left him out and went upstairs to do more research and call some other seasoned goat friends and a few other vets that MIGHT help. No one had any answers. So, about an hour later, My DH and I went back out and I grit my teeth and was determined to get his penis out to inspect it. I stroked, and pinched, and bent and pulled.. anything to try to get the end out.. I even went as far back towards his testicles thinking that If I could feel something, maybe I could work it out. I started getting a little more aggressive with the pinching and bending and there was an audible crunch about 2" back from the sheath opening. Blood started coming out. All I could think was I broke his poor weenie. He was visibly in more pain, so we took him outside the barn, fearing the worst. My DH had in idea. DH likes to mark his territory and when Sunny used to see him do that, he would pee too. DH started making rain and Sunny tried to join in. It went from blood droplets, to dark orange drops, to lighter orangey pink droplets, then a pink trickle.. I reached back up under him and massaged and squeezed some more, working out towards the tip.. I could feel grains of sand moving.. when I stopped, more pee would dribble out.. after about 15 minutes of literally, touch and go, he started having a little bit more than just a trickle.. but not much.. he stayed slowly leaking for about 15 minutes with his eyes closed.. the puddle under him was really pink, but it was a puddle. The next day, another dose of Ammonium Chloride.. every day for a week.. now he gets it weekly (7gm mixed with 2oz warm water, then 1 oz light Karo syrup all in a turkey baster.. he sucks it right down) he has been peeing freely since and My Dh has made it a late night ritual to stop by Sunny's pasture and together they mark their territory I don't know if this would work for everybody, but Prayers and hands on certainly helped in this case.
> His diet is Tifton Bermuda grass, Orchard grass and Brome, plus browse and a no grain, low starch horse pellet (Manna Pro 11%) with a handful of BOSS,Alfalfa pellets and Manna Pro Balancer. He has free choice minerals, baking soda and salt and everyday, all my goats get fresh water with added Stress Dex because it is so hot here in South Florida.


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## Oak Grove Farm (Mar 23, 2019)

After having lost my precious Buddy last year to UC, I set out to learn all that I could to avoid it happening again. After extensive input from a vet that's caprine certified, we settled on whole oats and timothy pellets with regular grass hay. So far, so good. I hope that helps someone.

Tennessee/Toggenburgs & Alpines


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