# Disbudding lidocaine?



## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Does any one use lidocaine or other local anesthetic when disbudding? I heard some place recently made it mandatory?

I've got a neighbor going nuts about how cruel "dehorning" is, yes, I will go over the difference with her, and I don't want to get off on this debate about City Folk, I have to start somewhere with them and honestly using some anaesthetic seems reasonable for the few that I have to do each year. I totally understand in larger numbers, it may not be.

So, anyone out there use it? Did and stopped because...? Like it because...?

Thanks all!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I don't use it. I've taken them to the vet and the vet sedates with a mix of ketamine and valium. I've heard that in other countries (where their PETA type groups have too much lobbying power) that it's illegal to disbud without a vet and sedation.

Anyhow, we just did our first disbuddings last night without the vet! My husband held them, and I shaved, disbudded, and tattooed. We did it in the house next to the stove so I could set the hot iron there and turn on the fan to whisk away the smell. Movie for the kiddos in the back room. Shaving made a huge difference in how little smell. I am loving that these Alpines get done at 3 or 4 days instead of 2 weeks like Nubians. Not as much fight to them yet! It was so much easier than I anticipated, and I felt like I could do this w/o a vet from now on! Yeah! That's victory for me, let me tell ya! Anyhow, I asked my husband how he was doing... it was his first disbudding experience as he's never even seen it done before. He didn't think the vet charged all that much and would prefer to never be a part of it again!

Okay, so I got off track a bit... I was thinking that if neighbors are appalled by the disbudding, maybe you can do it indoors and they'll never know?


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

LOL, if only it were that easy! I take them to an expert friend who does them, my injured hand I wouldn't trust holding a hot iron like that. But then they have the telltale discs for a month or more... and I have a bad habit of telling the truth if asked. I don't mind minimizing it and saying something like "dehorning is a vet surgical procedure and a bigger deal, what we do is treat the horn buds when they are only a few days old and they barely object before its over if its expertly done" which is usually the truth since my expert friend got her new iron.

Still, I'd feel better if I could honestly say they get some pain meds if there's no major drawback to it.

How much did your vet charge to do it?

Congrats on your success!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Lacia we have taken ours to the vet due to low numbers. Even they don't like to do any pain management but that is because I send them in at 5 days old, nubian or alpine. Now that our numbers are up its time to look for a disbudder and I won't be using anything. 
Tam


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## Fiberaddict (Jun 4, 2009)

We did our last 3, and didn't use any pain management. It was over pretty quickly - they quit screaming the minute I let go of their heads, and were bouncing around right after.

I hate doing it, because of the smell and screaming, but it's gotta be done.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

My vet charged $7 for sedation, disbudding, and tattooing of Nubians. When I took the Alpine kids, she charged $11. I don't know if that was because I went to the main clinic and prices are less flexible than at the small clinic I usually go to (There are 2 clinics and the small one only staffs one vet at a time) or if it was because I asked for a more involved disbudding on the Alpines because I heard they were more stubborn. (I had her do the figure 8 on the buckling and go all the way to the bone all the way across on both doelings and buckling). She uses my iron and my tattoo supplies, so I'm paying for sedation and her time and skill.

Shoot, in your shoes, I'd give them a kiss to make it all better afterward and tell your neighbor they're given something to feel better. It still works for my 3 (almost 4!) year old!


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

I too hate disbudding, but 'tis a necessary evil. In all our years of disbudding we have never used anything to numb, guess that's because back in the day, yrs ago, nobody ever mentioned it. I know a few breeders who have given banamine afterwards. Swiss breeds like Alpines & Oberhaslis need to be disbudded at the most before 2 weeks, reason being their horns grow faster. I do apply ice afterwards. They soon forget, it's kinda like baby boys getting circumasized, they soon forget. 

Naw Billie, Alpines are stubborn? Do ya think.....LOL On a serious note in all my yrs of having Alpines I've yet to have a stubborn kid, now being mean......that's another story!


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

I disbud at 3-4 days old and I have 4 different breeds of dairy goats. The Alpines and Saanens I do as early as possible or as soon as I feel the slightest button. The La Manchas can go a little bit longer than the Saanen and the Nubian has the slowest start, but all are done by the time they are 10 days. Yes, the procedure is not the most fun thing to do, but as Bernice said, a necessary chore. Again, I am of the older philosophy that the younger it is done the better; no anesthetic required. What the goat hates the most is being restrained in any way, you see this in their whole way of being. It is not the act; after the initial touch of the iron, the surface nerves are dead and the longer the iron is on the bud the deader the sensation. It is pressure and restraint that cause most of the kid's reaction. Notice when they are released afterwards; they are offered a bottle and go right for it, if they do not, then they are traumatized to an extent. I have never had a kid refuse a bottle after disbudding. The alternative to disbudding (leaving horns to grow) and in my herd that is unacceptable. All my goats are disbudded.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Exactly what Jennifer said. Even if you give them some sort of local anesthetic, they're gonna scream. I prefer to do them before a week is up, especially bucks.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

I've had a couple teeth that the dentist couldn't numb and he kept going. There are procedures in the hospital that are done with out very good pain management or none at all. I have several nightmare stories of what some friends have gone through. Sometimes things have to happen that are just a necessary evil. My disbudding got my babies excellent pet homes.


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

EEK Laverne.....I have to go to the dentist this morning! My tooth hurt so bad last night, only got an hr of sleep, was up popping ibprofin like candy!


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

There is an alternative to the cruel practice of disbudding.....it's NOT disbudding.....and when one of those neighbors get rammed in the butt by a 250 pound buck goat in rut, or a doe, who is normally friendly decides she doesn't like visitors that day and horns someone in the leg...or that ornery doe impales her horns into one of her pen mates, or gets those horns stuck in a hay feeder and she pulls them off, or breaks her neck trying to get out. Then you are faced with banding or dehorning an adult animal, and that is soooooo much more tramatic, painful, and dangerous than a 15 second hit with a disbudding iron at an age when they will never remember it. No adult goat will ever forget the trauma of something like that, and if a human is on the other end of wayward horns one day, they could be left with scars for life. 

My goats fight. A lot. The pain of having damamge inflicted by horns would be so much greater and longer lasting than the few seconds it takes to disbud. To PREVENT cruelty and mistreatment of goats by one another, they are disbudded. It's all about perspective. 

Get some pictures together of adult horn tradgedy's and see if they won't look at it differently.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

You know, Stacey brought up a good point. When my goats are sedated, they still scream. I don't know the amount of effort it took my husband to hold the goat (and I think the sedation is probably for that purpose) but they didn't scream any more without sedation than they do with.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I disbud my kids without any anesthetic or sedation. Some of them maaa and complain when I shave their heads before disbudding, so I think part of it is being restrained. Over the years, I've had a few who seemed uncomfortable after the procedure. A single shot of banamine takes care of that. We always disbud here, even the wethers destined for meat. The does, of course, have to be disbudded because I show. The rest are done because I don't want to have to untangle goats from fences and my friend doesn't want to haul horned goats to market in large groups.


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## lexnspice (Nov 12, 2009)

This was my first year to disbud, a very nice lady who has been in the goat business for 30 years was kind enough to teach me. thanks, it has saved me tons of money, my old vet charged $30.00 for the first one and 26.00 for any others, my new vet charges 18.00 a head, although my first two disbuddings don't look very good, they both look like they are going to have a scur each, on one side :/ But the others look better. dance: I shaved their heads but I know I was very nervous on my first two. half of them did'nt scream at all, and one only screamed when I was shaving her head :rofl It's alot better to do for self, then to pay. I don't use anything for pain. they are fine afterwards. Patty


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

I read that lidocaine is toxic to goats and it has to be watered down. I would think especially for a baby. Maybe not all vets know that. Then I have to ponder if the sedation will work enough watered down. I got lidocaine from a vet for disbudding and it wasn't watered down. I ended up not using for some reason.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Laverne, I like your sig!



stoneyheightsfarm said:


> My vet charged $7 for sedation, disbudding, and tattooing of Nubians...Shoot, in your shoes, I'd give them a kiss to make it all better afterward and tell your neighbor they're given something to feel better. It still works for my 3 (almost 4!) year old!


What a great deal, wow! Around here the going rate is $20 for the 1st one, $10 for ea additional, and the vets are more, and less skilled that the bigger goat herd owners in my opinion.

I do give them kisses and cuddles and bottle/mom right away, so I guess I can honestly say they do get something 

Everyone is making great points about the screaming while getting shaved or just restrained, more than the actual disbudding.


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## Kris (Mar 28, 2010)

I don't know if they have changed the practice in 15 years but they used to not give babies anesthetics before circumcising. It is more dangerous to do that than to do it without.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

interesting... "more dangerous" in what way?


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## Kris (Mar 28, 2010)

I am assuming numbing that little penis could cause damage. That's what the doctors always said. The numbing is more dangerous than the procedure without it...
Probably gave the male doctors nightmares to think of numb penis'.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

:rofl

anyone else have a good idea why numbing could be more dangerous?


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Body needs to know when something is wrong to activate countermechanisms to respond to the pain. No pain = no response.


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## Little Moon (Dec 29, 2007)

I have disbudded a few times - with terrible results. I don't have a goat mentor any closer than 3 hours away so nobody to teach me. Currently I take them to the vet at $40 per kid - they are surgically removed and can still scur. Just not a lot of options. I have also been crazy busy this year and didn't even think about it in time, so Monday we're off to the vet. I am only doing two. I have one goat left to kid and maybe thinkgs will be calmer and I will make the trip to my goat mentor and get a lesson.

Anne


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## Painted Pony (Apr 12, 2009)

The burn is not what causes the screaming. It's a thrid degree burn so it doesn't hurt once it's done. 3rd degree burns kill nerves so they do not hurt. Goatlings scream over being restrained. I don't use stuff I don't need. Lidocaine is not going to make a difference in the goatlings pain level. Lidocaine stings when injected...like a bee sting. Lidocaine can't block pressure pain. IMO using it is only for the human not for the goat. 

I do use a cooling spray after burning and it seems to help cool the temps faster which seems to calm everyone down goats & humans alike. 

Maybe you ought to burn during times neighbor isn't around if you are concerned they will cause problems for you. I honestly don't see a benefit to trying to numb the area. I do give banamine sometimes but only for the antiinflammatory properties it offers.


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## tmfinley (Feb 21, 2008)

Ok, this may not be popular but imho there is just no way the hot iron burn doesn't hurt. If I "disbudded" my arm, I find it hard to believe I would feel no pain. Maybe not in the deepest parts of the burn but certainly around the burn would be painful and when it actually goes in. Don't get me wrong. I'm not all touchy feely about it. I disbud my own goats and they scream and it sucks but they are just fine. I find that in between buds, while we are waiting for the iron to heat up again, even though they are still being restrained they are not yelling as much. I guess I'm just saying it is a part of goat life to get disbudded not fun but beats the alternatives, but I'm not going to kid myself and think it doesn't hurt them at all. 

Tiffany


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I find myself agreeing with Tiffany here. Although I know they scream at the restraint and shaving step too. Lidocaine does burn when injected, I know that personally, LOL from getting stitches too many times.

I don't do the disbudding here, the neighbor is a problem going on and on and on and on and on and on about the evidence on their heads for a month or two afterwards, the burn discs. They get sprayed with the AlumaSheild (name?) spray.

What's the name of the cooling spray you use?

I just want to *honestly* be able to say I do *something* to make it better for them, and yes, its more for the people accepting our newly legal city goats vs all the horror stories out there on the web. I know and see that the babies are fine as soon as its over.

Ultimately, I want polled genetics, LOL, as long as I can keep good milking volume.


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## Painted Pony (Apr 12, 2009)

I didn't say it doesn't hurt at all. I said once it is done a 3rd degree burn does not hurt. That is why they run off as if nothing happened and forget about it within a minute of being released. Alumashield will cool as it is sprayed so if you use that it is fine. Some object to aluminum but I challenge anyone to find an antiperspirant that doesn't have it in the ingredient. 

If you want to *honestly* say you did something to make the goats feel better I don't know what to tell you. I feel for your situation but I just don't know that there is anything out there that will honestly be of benefit to the goats during the 5 seconds you are burning their horn buds that doesn't put them at risk in other ways. I doubt anything you say will make a neighbor happy once they see the burned areas on the goatling's head. 

Lidocaine is a numbing med and it is also a heart drug. How much will you need to actually make a difference while burning but not cause a dysrhythmia in a small goatling? Not sure. Personally, I am not willing to stick a little screaming goat head with a needle 2-4 times per horn bud just to tell someone else it no longer hurts them for 5 seconds. Why stress the goatling even more? Since they scream anyway how will you know if it helps the babies or not?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> I challenge anyone to find an antiperspirant that doesn't have it in the ingredient


Desert Essence Tea Tree Oil.
Awesome stuff


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I disagree about the restraint thing- 
You are just making yourself feel better
MY goats love being restrained if I am holding them to pet or coddle.
Hold your goat- no screaming- apply hot iron to head -screaming-
this is kahkah believing it does not hurt- put that iron on your own head and see how you like it
dead nerves or not. silly stuff- it hurts and they get over it - part of livestock management.
It has to be done- accept the pain it will cause for the heartache it will prevent.
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I would bet that if you grabbed a kid and held it with a cool iron not even plugged in, the same tightness it takes to disbud, that the kid will scream, we have commented lots of times how much rucus they cause just in holding them still to start and we haven't even applied the iron.

Biggy here is they are livestock. Sure it hurts, your pretending if you think it doesn't, but few, maybe one a year even act like it's a problem 5 seconds after they are done, so it certainly is not like a humans pain response. We have kids who jump back up onto my husband's lap seconds after he has put them down from disbudding! The more you put human emotions onto your livestock the more money they cost you and the quicker you will be out of livestock. It makes no sense to spend money to do routine management of your goats...this from someone who pays someone to trim feet and shave  but it's not because I won't learn or it makes me sqeemish, I am lazy 

Lacia it isn't your neighbors business what you do with your stock, if it's legal for you to have it and it's not against the law to disbud, I don't see why even a conversation is needed. Vicki


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## Poverty Knob Goats (Apr 13, 2010)

I agree with Vicki. You can't attach human emotions to livestock and stay in business. Disbuding kids and banding bucklings are just part of the job description. 
People who aren't in the livestock business always seem to have a better way to run yours!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> I would bet that if you grabbed a kid and held it with a cool iron not even plugged in, the same tightness it takes to disbud, that the kid will scream,... it hurts, your pretending if you think it doesn't, ...maybe one a year act like it's a problem 5 seconds after they are done,...not like a humans pain response...kids jump back up onto my husband's lap seconds after he has...disbudding! ...makes no sense to spend money...this from someone who pays someone to trim feet and shave ... I am lazy ... Lacia it isn't your neighbors business what you do with your stock...I don't see why even a conversation is needed. Vicki


Lots of good stuff there as always. I agree that restraining to the level needed for disbudding causes screaming more often than hugging very tightly or hoof trimming level restraint.

Compromise/accomodation whatever you want to call it, is part of living in close quarters in a city with neighbors, TO A POINT only. I'd rather spend my time educating them about other stuff than arguing about disbudding, like Vicki paying someone to do hoof trims cuz it just isn't her thing, we all make choices about what's worth doing or battles we want/don't to fight. If I could honestly say I could do something, that would be great.

Lee's point "It has to be done- accept the pain it will cause for the heartache it will prevent." is sound, and that might be the final word on disbudding, besides that its required by law here. Her point is that the law is flawed, that the law shouldn't allow us to have them if it requires such torture of helpless babies. So in the interest of harmony, if I could do something reasonable I would, but sticking multiple stinging needles and/or risking affecting heart rhythms etc goes beyond reasonable as tradeoffs, and I may just have to stick to my guns on this topic and keep hunting for the best polled genetics I can find.

Houston area folks, there's a choice of polled mini-mancha bucks near you, but I can not get decent pics or info from the otherwise very nice but over busy people. Pedigrees are worth some effort to keep trying. Contact me off list if you can help me at all?


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## Painted Pony (Apr 12, 2009)

buckrun said:


> > I challenge anyone to find an antiperspirant that doesn't have it in the ingredient
> 
> 
> Desert Essence Tea Tree Oil.
> Awesome stuff


That is deorerant not antiperspirant. Good stuff, but they are not the same thing.


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