# Help for those purchasing their first goats.



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I want to start a thread on helping new folks not fall into the pitfalls that most do in purchasing their first goats. Seems I am spending way too much time with emails and PM's with those who have already purchased and have some very unhappy tails of woe. Everyone help with what has worked for you.

1. Sit down and have a goal before you purchase, don't buy meat goats if you want to milk.

2. Know the alphabet soup of CAE, CL, before you purchase and if it is important to you don't purchase anything from a breeder who says "I have never heard of CL or CAE" in this day and age it's likely a lie. They likely have this in their herd and if they don't disclose this than they will tell you they don't have to take the animals back when they do test positive in your herd.

3. Just because the person belongs to this forum does not make them any more or any less reputable. If they say their herd is negative, than paperwork for whole herd testing should be the first thing you see. Certainly anybody who spends the money to test is going to be only all too ready to show you this paperwork. 

4. Off brands, generic goats. Make sure you understand that IDGR is not anything more than a person making up these registration papers on their computer. The database they use is from ADGA. Paperwork from them and the MDGA that also carry ND, are not, transferable to ADGA. AGS paperwork is. If you purchase goats registered from one of these off brand registries it also gives you no recourse if the goats won't breed (sterile, hermaphrodites, free martins) like it does in ADGA. It also takes away all the pressure we as ADGA members can put onto them when they sell you goats who are diseased, horrid (one such story recently the buck was not only positive but the appraiser would not even appraise this buckling because of his condition) because they are off registered there is no recourse. It also gives you NO resale, except to other new folks who do not understand about registries...like CKC in dogs.

5. Get help. Find a breeder on here who doesn't sell the breed you want, or who is sold out and ask for help. Most of us know the stories, know who to recommend and who to not.

6. Be smart. Think about it. A breeder who is not willing to help you out with all your questions answered is also not going to help you with aftercare, after the purchase. Why give them your money.

7. If you are buying a milker, milk her. Is her udder soft and pliable when empty? Will she let you walk up to her out in the barn with all the other goats. Is she on the milkstand when you get there (huge trick here in making you think she is tame). Don't buy wild goats that you tell yourself or are told "she will tame down when she gets to know you".

8. Look at overall herd health. Those old does with swollen knees and horrible udders in that other pen are the mature does your goats are coming out of. Do you want them to look like that? You are bringing home the health of the whole herd with your purchase.

9. Kids and juniors. Purchase a weigh tape, have it with you. Unless a mini, full size dairy goats should weigh 10 pounds plus their birth weight. So a 6 month old kid should weigh 68 pounds, 7 month old 78 pounds, 8 month old 88 pounds etc...and these are very minimal weights. Unless a quint out of an older doe or a quad out of a younger doe, there really is no excuses for buying a 50 pound 8 month old kid.

10. Try to bring someone with you to the sale who knows livestock or better, knows goats. Do not impulse buy. Do not buy because you think you are rescuing them. Do not buy because they are cute, pretty, spotted. If they are purebreds, if they aren't registered than they are not purebreds no matter what story you are told.

11. Paperwork. Unless you know this person very very well purchasing stock that doesn't come with their paperwork is more than risky. Now breeders holding paperwork until the animals are paid for, or a check clears is acceptable. Paperwork should be ready before the animal is sold. ADGA and AGS animals should match their tattoos. Even in kids, take a flashlight with you, check tattoo's against the animal you are purchasing. Ask to see the dams paperwork, the sires paperwork, make sure the breeder owns these animals before you take it home. If they do not than they must give you a service memo for the buck breeding the doe, or a copy of the lease form for leasing the dam.

Each one of these above, comes with a story this year that I have tried, a few times in vain to help people get their money back from breeders, some on this forum.

The offbrand registries have been the worst, in fact so many stories from them that in some instances we as moderators have guessed the offending party before we were even told who it was. Stories of CAE positive goats that follows the same breeders in the same area of the country year after year. Stories that follow breeders about no paperwork, about the most horrid of goats registered as purebreds with breed faults.

If anyone wants to debate anything written on this thread, we can do so in OFF Topic, for now lets just have it be a thread of helps. Eventually it will be condensed to take out chatter and put in goatkeeping 101. Vicki


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Don't be afraid to say no if something isn't right...there are always more fish in the sea.

DO NOT trust someone just because they have lots of experience and show all over the place. I've been burned by a couple breeders who I believed what they said just because I thought they knew way more than I did. Check and double check especially in #2 above. Don't believe the "we've never had any problems with...(Johne's, CAE, etc.)" or what I got told "CAE never killed a goat so why worry about it?"


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

One major thing is to know the breed standards for the breed of registered animals you are going to look at and/or purchase. When one goes to a farm and begins looking at goats and they are new and are so willing to listen to and believe whatever the breeder is saying, you will at least have some idea as to what the breed is suppose to look like. For example: If you go to someone's farm and you are looking for a Nubian herd sire and he has a straight face or dished face instead of having a prominant roman nose then something is wrong. Or if you are purchasing an Alpine and her ears are hanging down... again, something is wrong.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Ask for lineage on the prospective animal. Any breeder should be able to tell you whats in their line but back it up through paperwork or online. Look it up. ADGA is 24/7 online. Is this an animal you really want? 

Learn more about your minerals in your area so your ahead of the game. May have a different percentage at your place compared to the sellers, which could cause health differences. So ask seller about their minerals also. Have heard this one time and again on here. Tammy


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thought I'd modify this post a bit so as to be more helpful, and not put the work off on others. 

Could you expand on herd health a bit? To include other health issues and what to look for? --Obvious, CAE, CL, how important is it to test for Brucellosis? Johnes? And for Nubians or Boers, G6S? I can not echo enough the comments about SEEING the paperwork. Even if you trust the person 110%, it will do a lot for your sanity later on when/if you might wonder... Buyer's remorse sometimes does happen, and not just with $500 shoes! Non test issues as others have touched on--what do they vaccinate for? Coccidia and worming prevention? (They should be doing something that works!) Check out hooves. What is their hoof trimming schedule? 

Also helpful might be things to purchase before bringing home goats. --Something to feed with and water are obvious. Management tools such as hoof trimmers, MICROSCOPE and other fecaling supplies, etc. If you'll be getting a milker, milk supplies. If you'll be getting a bred doe, disbudding, tatooing, birth kit supplies. At some point, you'll be breeding and milking, so budget for these supplies as you'll need them. If you'll be showing, clippers (and what else! I don't show, so someone else must jump in here.  ) Meds to have on hand: If your herd will be small, then many things are too pricey to keep and you'll be better just getting them from the vet. Get acquainted with local goat clubs and maybe there is another local breeder who will share the cost of that ginormous bottle of cydectin or whatever with you. Make acquaintance with a good vet and get their help. Regardless, some things are good to have on hand. So far, the only thing I've had to use regularly is coccidia treatment, but only for my boys. So a medicine cabinet budget is a good thing. Ask the breeder what meds they find necessary to have on hand. This may be helpful, and it may also alert you to herd health issues they are dealing with. 

Things to learn to do: giving shots, trimming hooves, doing fecals, pulling blood, milking, tatooing, disbudding... If you don't learn how to do these things, you will be paying for it to be done. Find out the costs and know if you can afford them. Hoof trimming needs to be done monthly, and for a complete beginner, it can be a daunting task. You don't want to have to pay for this to be done, so definitely learn how to do this. Fecals WILL get pricey if you're always going to the vet to get them done, but it may be a good way to establish a relationship with your vet when you get started. There are comments further down on pulling blood and the cost of running tests yourself. If you rely on a vet to pull blood, you've got the trip to the office, blood pull fees, and their cut off the tests. My vet recently quoted me $90 per animal to get CAE, CL, Brucellosis, Johnes, and G6S done thru WADDL and TVDML. With a starter herd of only 5 goats, this still isn't cheap! (But I'm sure my vet loves me....  

It is easy to want to trust the seller because you like their personality, want their promised aftercare, their goats are cute, their bloodlines are great, they're well connected, etc. Don't be afraid to ask around and double check. If they're completely above board, they'll welcome it. The saying is "Buyer Beware" for a reason. Buying your first goats is different than buying your first car. There are lots of shops that can help you with your car, but when you buy your goats, you're possibly also buying into a relationship with the breeder, for better or worse. Is the relationship a wise one?

Other relationships you'll need to establish--get to know the local farm stores, feed mills, and a few sources of where you can get good hay. Don't rely on just one, because they may have a bad year and you don't want to be scrambling around last minute trying to feed your animals!


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## Little Moon (Dec 29, 2007)

All of the above and just because an animal is registered with the ADGA does not mean it is going to be great. Check your bloodlines and learn about them, even if you don't plan to show, those bloodlines are what you will be feeding and milking. Same amount of feed to feed a poorly bred animal as it is to feed a well bred animal and usually a big difference in the milk pail.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Stuff I ask is this:

Have your animal been on antibiotics? If so, what? And why? Many folks simply have no idea how to treat for mastitis, and you want to discover if the animal has had it and unsuccessfully been treated for it. 

What do you use to worm the animal? If they say "herbals" or safeguard then you know they have not been effectively de-wormed. 

Do they vaccinate? If so, what do they use and how? Do they give the follow up shots? Do they do it im or sub q? Do they use the same elbow area or is it given anywhere? 

If they don't vaccinate, do they still take the animals off the property? Or are they in a closed herd situation? 

If it's a young animal were they raised on coccidia prevention? 

It's very important to make ties with other local breeders. Quite often you will find someone who will give you an honest opinion about someones herd and the health of their herd. Ask them about the herd you are buying into. 

Study pictures of goats with good confirmation, so you can spot obvious faults.


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

1. I personally like to visit the farm where the animal is being kept. I can usually get a feel pretty quick if the animals are being managed properly. Dirty everything is a big red flag for me.
2. I also don't like to purchase "hand me down" or goats that have been bought and sold/moved around much. I prefer to buy a goat that has spent it's whole life at the farm I'm visiting.
3. When buying a goat from somebody who don't know me, and I don't know them.....I may ask a lot of questions in a way that makes them think that I don't know much about goats....in other words, play a little dumb, and let them do as much talk as they will. If they get some idea that you don't know much, they will most times hang themselves with their own mouth.....if given enough rope. Don't go there trying to be a goat know it all. Be smart, but never tell all you know. Lots of these "slickers" will let you do the talking until they can get an angle in which to better do business with you.
You got to remember this....there are many "dog traders" goat traders" horse traders", out there that could make a used car salesman blush. I don't know how they sleep at night or stay in business very long....but it seems that they somehow do.
4. And last but not least.....don't go there acting like you have money to burn. Never pull out that roll of money that could choke a horse until the deal has been made.
5. If you don't have money enough to buy a "good animal" ...then save up your money until you can. If you are unable to save up that money in a reasonable amount of time, then you will probably have a hard time buying feed and stuff to take care of them. Nothing gripes my butt more than to go to a farm where I know that good money was paid out for animals, and then see them eating crap and being half starved to death.

Well Vicki, I doubt that my advice is really what you was looking for in this thread, so I don't blame you if you edit the heck out of it.    


WHIM


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

:yeahthat and is the goats eye's clear , do you see a perky expression or a sickly expression out of their eyes ? is the goat snotting,coughing,poopy,hoof's trim,fur shiny,goat plump ?? How about the goats environment and other herd members, as your goat was being kept like the others in the herd but spruced up before you come to look at it.

Most all here would be eager to show and tell you about their goats as we are proud goat owners ! 

My Goats have everything done AND all paperwork signed and ready for transfer to your name ,I include my email and phone number if you need something or have any questions.

NEVER leave with your new goat without having ALL registered transfer paperwork in your hand !! NEVER !! :nooo

and me personally ,I want a CAE and CL check before I buy and I wear shoe covers to protect myself and them from transferring possible diseases, usually we work out the cost.

Start with the best you can afford,dont settle for anything less... get what you want ,be picky . Do your homework and KNOW what breed you want. I like a doe with a kid at her side or a doe in milk that's bred because I want to see her milk, how she does on the stand ,check and feel her udder ,know how much milk she milks out , how her udder looks and how her MILK TASTE !!! Very important to taste her milk !


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## baileybunch (Oct 26, 2007)

So many "pearls of wisdom" have been shared. I have learned the hard way this year and find not only is there benefit in the learning but also the sharing of information so that others can take something away from this too. 

In addition to all the information given above, this is other advice that I have gleaned from several people as well as some "gems" of my own. (I used bullets because a simple on liner might be easier to recall. Maybe when this all gets condensed and organized, it could have bullet lines.)

IMPROVE ON WHAT YOU HAVE
One good piece of advice I have heard over and over again, which is why we are always advised about pedigree, is "it costs just as much to feed and care for a high quality animal as it does a cheap one." Many of us think we just want the milk or a pet or a lower goal than showing or top genetics. BUT we are still breeding and we should always strive to improve on what we have. So, we should shop for the best we can afford and with improvement in mind. And actually the top quality (best you can afford) will be the less expensive in the end as you will have better production and maybe even a healthier animal.

ADVICE OF A MENTOR
I do think taking someone with you is important. If you can’t then take your camera, with permission, snap photos (front, rear, side, dam, sire) and send pictures to your mentor. Also, take notes to help you recall important information. 

Another good use of you mentor is to compare pedigrees (LA scores, etc) of what you are looking at to what you have. The breeder talked the talk about how these animals would compliment and improve my current herd. Through the appraiser, both were more on the dairy side (lacking width and strength) and I have a “very dairy” doe. This likely would not have improved my herd. It would have made a goat so narrow that it could walk through a key hole (that's what the appraiser said!)

Also about pedigrees...“but look at his pedigree”, he’s got “blah, blah, blah” in his pedigree (a thousand times back). But, I learned that top names don’t have much influence on the animal if they are so many generations past. I cannot recall but think it's 4th, or further generations that aren't as important as the immediate generations. So, a warning about pedigree reading…like how many close generations to follow to look for.

TOOLS TO USE
And this is another point. Ask if their herd has been appraised! Ask if any of the animals you are looking at have been appraised. Ask the breeder to show you the good and bad points of the animal as well as dam and sire. This would go for production records, etc.

SHOW ME THE RESULTS (or get them yourself!)
Also, if they don’t have current CAE/CL test results (meaning an animal not tested within the last year) then be prepared and ask that they are willing to allow you to pull blood. A simple kit (alcohol swabs, disposable syringes, red top tubes,) and you are ready to roll! Sending samples to WSU takes less than a week to get results and cost less than $15! You can do it all by yourself and through the post office! Simple, simple, simple! This is something a novice doesn’t realize.

TAKE A DEEP BREATH
Deposit, deposit, deposit! Look, take your pictures, check everyone out, draw blood, see everything in writing, get a contract with EVERYTHING in written down, including what will happen if something goes wrong, what is refundable, etc. and go home to get perspective, contact your mentor or other sources. A deposit (either small enough that if lost, you aren’t out too much or large and refundable at your specifications) will give you time to consider and not feel the pressure or rush. It shows the seller that you are serious and smart.

WARNING
Also, CL, blood-test alone isn’t going to be enough. You need to know if there has ever been CL positive animals on the property. If these animals have ever been exposed, how long age, etc. Look for signs of CL abscesses or scars. I think a red-light might be “we vaccinate for CL” because the only need for vaccination is if your animals have been exposed to a positive animal. 

GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING AND SIGNED
Contract. If the seller doesn’t have one, have one with you so that you can have everything in writing for your protection. If the seller isn’t willing to have a contract, walk away! It’s not worth it. 

PRACTICE BIOSECURITY
I appreciate the post that mentions covering your shoes. Something to protect your farm from the spread of disease. I think Jeffers sells boot and shoe covers. In a pinch, Walmart bags and tape will do! You are also "considerate" enough to be thinking about the seller's animals.

PRIORITIES
Already discussed. Sitting down and figuring out what your goals are and what is important. 

I think a head-to-toe description (structure) of what we should look for is important too. I learned a lot from attending an appraisal and reading through the appraisal book. What are good and what are not so good qualities. Take it with you!


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

As a few on this thread have said, take along a mentor who knows both breed standard and herd health. My first year in goats, I attended an out of state show where a breeder had a beautiful doeling for sale. My mentor/friend not only looked at the kid, but her dam as well. The doeling looked to be in good health, but the dam had a couple of abcesses. Though the breeder stated the kid had been raised on prevention, I passed on that kid.
If you're buying for show, look at the dam and also any milking does produced by the kid's sire. Though the dam and sire's pedigrees may look good, the goats, themselves may not be show quality.
Check the doelings to be sure they don't have extra teats.
Kathie


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## haeema (Jan 18, 2008)

Do only boars have extra teats? I haven't seen anything (Nubians, Toggs, Saanen's..) that have that trait.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Dunno... but teat spurs would be something to look for... Would that be considered as part of "conformation"??


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

haeema said:


> Do only boars have extra teats? I haven't seen anything (Nubians, Toggs, Saanen's..) that have that trait.


Only Boers *should* have extra teats. It can and does happen in dairy goats but it is rare because it is culled or should be culled strictly.


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## FRW (Sep 29, 2008)

A little more newbee advice from someone who has had some hard knocks when starting out into Breeding Nubian Goats.
Due to health problems I currently do not own any goats or have any for sale. So feel free to ask me any questions from quality care, to health, to where and how to test for diseases and what emergency meds and vaccines are needed etc. I will gladly help where I can!!

I would strongly advise that you first decide your breed then start looking at the type goats you think you want to breed. Then look up those bloodline on website on the web and start studying pedigrees and the bloodlines on the Adda website Then if you find another bloodline combined with your interest of bloodline then do research on the new line you have discovered.After you are able to start seeing some of the GCH Champions found on the internet and prior ADGA national shows you will start seeing the similarity of how the bloodlines combined to produce the new line you know have an interest in. 
Another good way to see pictures of animals in past pedigrees is asking for a sales list Or mail outs of current or/and any old prior sale list this will help familiarize you with the breed and what it should like. I also look at things like does the breeder linear appraise their animals. 
I understand not all appraise ever year nor can everyone afford to linear appraise there animals. If you find out that a linear appraisal is going on that you can attend ask for an invitation!!! You have to be invited by the person being appraised if accepted you will learn allot and be able to ask allot of questions.
Attend goat shows and look at how the goats move around in the ring.Listen to the judges and how and why they placed them. 
Anywhere you can get information get it!!!! 
You must research the breed you are wanting to start raising. If not you will end up spending money on animals that may not be what you are needing for your breeding program.
Never buy an goat with out a 48 hour warranty of being able to take the goat to a vet for a full check up,Also with the understanding of a refund of full purchase price if the CAE,CL etc test results return positive.
Always completely quarantine any new animals away from your other animals( no common drinking , eating nose touching etc territory) Ask your vet about quarantining I quarantine 60 days.
When the vet draws the blood have him list the tatoo letters and numbers out of each ear(left and right) and have the vet send the bloodwork into a repeatable location that test for #1 ,CAE#2 CL I would also have the vet do a fecal on your goat so you will know if it needs worming or treated for Cocci. Just because they have worms or cocci doesn't mean this is an awefull thing. It will not be the first or last. This only gives you a place to start. This will show you a level of the amount of worms that your animals have or will have. They will not stay worm or cocci free.
Remember -If you don't have the money for the vet bill or others later down the road, DON'T BUY THE GOAT!!! 

1.The main thing is do not rush into anything and do not let someone rush you into something.(don't get the cart before the horse)
2.Decide what you want ,Research more about the bloodlines make sure you know what you are buying.
3.Make sure you have the necessary supplies before buying :
The medicine cabinet is very important. suppies for emergency cuts or scrapes(tetanus toxoid),
supplies for kidding,DE wormers,cocci treatment, supplies for calcium deficiencies,ketosis etc.
The rest of your supplies should contain all of those other things that you will need to have available at all times to take excellent care of your new goat. A medicine cabinet can get expensive and it is true if you do not have many goats it can be more economical to buy what you need as needed from the vet.
People on this list are here for you!! To talk to you individually and ask them questions about the things that have been listed by everyone on this thread !! The only dumb questions is the unasked ones !!!
Have fun finding you new goats. 
I am counting down the months till I will again have my new goats.


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## Liberty Alpines (Nov 14, 2007)

All of this information is really good. Thanks for starting it Vicki, not just for buyers, but also for those selling too so we can always be becoming better and better breeders and sellers. I once was considering purchasing a buck from a farm and called and left a message on their machine to ask if they were CAE free. I never heard from them after that and haven't since. I had been out to their farm to learn how to tattoo and everything. I was blessed to be able to buy my first goats from a lovely Christian lady who did me right completely even though I didn't know enough to ask hardly anything. She would still do anything for me if I needed her to. Unfortunately, everyone doesn't have that experience! 

Also, is tomorrow a special birthday for the forum? I thought maybe but wasn't sure. 
Kristin


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

With all the above said.....I want to add one thing.
If you demand all the above testing, want the kids raised a certain way until your pick up (which is usually way past the owners desire), expect adult milkers that are milkstand trained,coccidia treated,wormed, shown, DHIR tested, LA'ed, and in perfect health, all that jazz...DO NOT EXPECT to pay $50 for one. Don't even insult the owner by saying $200 is a lot for that GOAT! :mad

Nothing makes me madder than to advertise a FINISHED Doe (with milk records-DHIR, LA scores, 2 or 3 yrs. of showing, daughters that are showing and winning, and all the PROPER management put in that doe) as a brood doe, for $500 and someone say...she's not worth that. 

In the south if you get the statement..."Oh, I don't use drugs." RUN DON'T WALK away from this herd! I'm hearing this a lot from people wanting to sell crap as "all natural" goats. It don't work,folks. Sounds good in this time of people wanting "grass-fed" milk/meat, but in reality it don't fly.
Kaye


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## MeadowValleyFarm (Oct 21, 2008)

Amen to that Kay. Most "all natural" things were treated with something at one point or another, even the mothers could have been treated durring the pregnacy which means that the kid is not "all natural". Its hard to raise anything with out using drugs or chemicals anywere, new and stronger strains of diseases make this a challenge.

Also thankyou for the information on buying goat, when we bought our first two dairy goats we knew very little about goats. Since then we have learned the hard way on alot of things. I guess the one thing that we did do right was that we bought doelings and no bucks.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

CHECK OUT DONATION GOATS THAT YOU HAVEN"T A CLUE ABOUT! Some of these are animals that no one wants for many reasons. Some of them are money pits and some times are older with severe health issues that cannot be fixed. Once you have checked out the animals and breeder and they are healthy then make your decision. When we started Lindsey out in 4-H she was given two older animals that did have severe problems. One cost us alot of money and I still had to put her down. The other was fixable but we still have some issues with her. Since-we have accepted one other and she is an absolute doll that came from a very reputable breeder and we couldn't be happier. Just do your homework is all I am saying. Tammy

I have modified this post.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

I know when I started out I was so naive, all of us have been burned money wise If you are in the goat world long enough, but Health wise is much worse. I guess I've been lucky there. When I bought my first registered animals I really believed that the gals I was purchasing from (5) different ladies, knew everything, knew so much. and I still to this day don't think I know anything about goats, I'm always trying to catch up in learning, but in looking back on what those ladies told me, and in dealing with 2 of them still, I just shake my head. Bad management, bad advise, shipping crap animals that should be culled. whether it was weaning the babies at 7 weeks, or drying up a milk goat right after you buy her to let her "settle in" RED FLAG, or worse one was dried up before I bought her in Aug! People Not worming or Cocidia treating animals when they have Owned goats for LONGER than me. I guess I'm saying don't feel intimidated, and don't just assume those ladies know it all. They don't. Use your own common sence when I say to folks don't feed molasses, its' not because Vicki says, it's because I started out feeding sweet feed, took Vickies good advise NOT to feed sweet feed, and viola away went the congested udders at freshening. I saw that it did make sence and did have positive outcome in my own barn.


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## MeadowValleyFarm (Oct 21, 2008)

People should really learn what the word NO means. I bought two does two years ago and left them dry the first year and this fall when I was deciding how to breed them (who to go through since we don't own a buck) she had almost turned into a "stalker" with all the phone calls and emails, she even had the balls to drive out to the farm to see 'her' girls. She gave us the offer of breeding them for free and picking them up and bringing them back once they were bred. She just wouldn't take no for an answer, I finnaly told her that they were bred just so she would stop. (see if I ever buy a goat from her again) It was a nightmare that would never end.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

What a great thread! I can't think of a thing to add, what with all the great advice already given. I agree with Kristin, that this helps


> not just for buyers, but also for those selling too so we can always be becoming better and better breeders and sellers.


Stacy


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

4fromgoatilia said:


> And another note on goats for those who have not had the priviledge of this:
> 
> DO NOT ACCEPT DONATION GOATS! even if it is to start out with in 4-H. These are animals that no one wants for many reasons. They are money pits and many times are older with sever health issues that cannot be fixed. The only good thing that comes from it is a bad lesson learned. Tammy


This is not always true Tammy as I have started many people out with their first MM and they were quality goats.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:lol I made the same post Sondra...but got eaten!
I've given quality bucklings and doelings to 4-H kids ~THAT I KNEW WOULD FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS AND TAKE CARE OF THEM and then kicked my rear when they freshened! But, it gave those kids a good start and several are still giving me a challenge in the show ring. :lol
Kaye


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

yep an offered one of my best doelings for a charity raffle cause I wanted my name associated with quality stock.


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## MeadowValleyFarm (Oct 21, 2008)

The county fair around here is more like, the more money you have the better you'll do. I tried cattle, horses, and now goats. Last year was the first year that I have ever taken a reserve place at the fair and I was in 4-H for nine years. All species have big names (last names) that always win, goats do to, sometimes when some families don't go to nationals.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Well then I will restate my last post, before accepting a donation goat be sure they are in good health and not just someone desperate to drop bad goats on you. Just some really bad experience here...two years worth...so I do have a problem with it. I wish we could have had your guys' goats as our first donations! Our second time was much better and we are happy! Tammy


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2008)

I know it has been said but I am going to say it again. Never I mean never buy a wild goat. It is not worth the trouble. Don't think you can tame them. One of my “test goats” is wild and anytime I need to work on her it is an ordeal I could live without. She had her kid yesterday and chooses to do some in a windy cold part of the yard so I needed to move her and baby to a dry draft free location. That was no fun!!!! :mad By the time I got her to the barn I wanted to die and would have been happy shooting her. 

Anyway long story short don't buy wild goats! Period! Well that is unless you are just going to eat them.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

My first experience was such a dud. Had decided to buy cheap goats and see how I liked even having them. Ok told the lady I would get the two little bred (due any day) ND does. 
Was borrowing her kennels to haul them with. Got to the house and both were in the kennels ready to go. Paid the lady and then went out around her place while DH loaded them in the truck. Am walking around with the daughter and asking a few questions. Then asked which one of these little guys is the father of the the babies. At the same time this monster of a LaMancha buck is standing up on a 5 ft chainlink fence looking over, and the girl said "OH we don't know for sure as that one got out a while back, but you'll know if he is the daddy when the babies are born. The probably won't have any ears" Got my goats home and one was WILD as a march hare, on the milk stand but nice otherwise. The other was wild all the time. OH this was middle of Sept. and I can't tell you how many nights I spent out with those darn does knowing they were in labor. Well finally on the 21 of Feb during an ice storm we had kids on the grow. 
So # 1 get to know the goats a bit before you buy # 2 find out about the breeder from someone else before you buy. # 3 HEALTH of the goats.


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

I am going to say something from a different perspective and then duck. 
As the market increases for family milkers, I think it is perfectly acceptable to buy unregistered goats *all else being equal.* Know what you want to get into and invest accordingly. 
I am raising and selling purebred Saanens, but without papers and Swiss breed crosses. Healthy, tested, well cared for and heavy milking (14 lbs.) but not registered. I know I will not have time to show for years yet, I don't have space for a large enough herd to justify LA, I could never recoup the costs of expensive animals, registration fees, etc. Would not sell around local and don't think people would buy shipped without show records, LA scores, and a reputation etc. 
Most of my kids sales go to families who need the goat milk for health reasons, wethers for brush goats and pets and bucklings for terminal breedings. They have other competitive interests and don't want to show even if they love goats. They learn how to take care of the goats well for quality milk and breed either with a new young buck each year or crossed with what they can find. Kids go for meat most of the time. A true shame depending on which way you look at it, but it works very well in some situations. If you can sell registered for registered price and are dedicated to breeding, keeping multiple bucks or setting up and learning AI it pays off after awhile. But if you want milk for your family, and invest all this into the goats and end up with ALL these extra goats you really don't want, can't sell, but are too nice to butcher.... They eat you out of house and farm and go to the meat market in the end. :nooo I don't make as much per kid as most of the breeders on this forum, but my accounts are in the black.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

My biggy is that new folks are told that the goat is a purebred, when without paperwork she is not. Resale of unregistered kids usually isn't worth growing out, eating them is a viable option. Yes with family milkers prices dear, it is an option for breeders to sell, just sell them with clear information that this doe is not registered. Vicki


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## MeadowValleyFarm (Oct 21, 2008)

Ya, I've seen some people who are more intrested in just selling the animals than giving information about the animal, its like for the information its an extra fee.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

homeacremom said:


> I am going to say something from a different perspective and then duck.
> As the market increases for family milkers, I think it is perfectly acceptable to buy unregistered goats *all else being equal.* Know what you want to get into and invest accordingly.
> I am raising and selling purebred Saanens, but without papers and Swiss breed crosses. Healthy, tested, well cared for and heavy milking (14 lbs.) but not registered. I know I will not have time to show for years yet, I don't have space for a large enough herd to justify LA, I could never recoup the costs of expensive animals, registration fees, etc. Would not sell around local and don't think people would buy shipped without show records, LA scores, and a reputation etc.
> Most of my kids sales go to families who need the goat milk for health reasons, wethers for brush goats and pets and bucklings for terminal breedings. They have other competitive interests and don't want to show even if they love goats. They learn how to take care of the goats well for quality milk and breed either with a new young buck each year or crossed with what they can find. Kids go for meat most of the time. A true shame depending on which way you look at it, but it works very well in some situations. If you can sell registered for registered price and are dedicated to breeding, keeping multiple bucks or setting up and learning AI it pays off after awhile. But if you want milk for your family, and invest all this into the goats and end up with ALL these extra goats you really don't want, can't sell, but are too nice to butcher.... They eat you out of house and farm and go to the meat market in the end. :nooo I don't make as much per kid as most of the breeders on this forum, but my accounts are in the black.


One question and a comment: When you say that you are raising Purebred Saanens, do you mean that they are Purebreds, or do you mean American Saanens, only no papers? (terminology means a lot some times!)

There are many ways to "getter done". Providing quality healthy animals to families and using the milk/meat to meet your own families' needs and keep your accounts in the black is laudable. Just be careful with the use of the term "purebreds", especially as you can't really prove that they are...

For ourselves, finding a good breeder that we can trust has proven invaluable. We didn'tt expect others to hold our hand the whole time, but took notes, studied, and asked questions of lots of goat people.

We do try to provide lots of info to our buyers but I know that much of what I say is just too much info at once for many people. I refer them to Goatkeeping 101 and a few books so that they also take some responsibility for the health and well-being of their animals.

As far as registered vs. non-registered: It has always been a better move financially for us to purchase quality registered stock, whether it was rabbits, Saanens, Boers or Great Pyrenees. Same amount of work, better prices for offspring. Plus it is so much fun working with pedigrees and genetics...

Camille
P.S. You don't need a large herd to do Linear Appraisal. Just get one or two other people to join you and you easily meet your minimums. Or go to another breeders house for appraisal. It's a great way to fast forward your education. Wouldn't I like to be hanging over Kaye's shoulder as her goats get appraised!!


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

speaking of LA size (smacking forehead) I had three people back out on me, then had a dumb attack forgetting to tatoo all the babies, but two, so we appraised a grand total of 10 animals. He told me, you know you can split the fees if you get someone else to come or you go to a host herd. blink blink ohhh. easier than well you see sir... 
this year I don't care how flipping busy I am making soap, babies are getting tattooed as they are dissbudded!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I am just going to pay the $200 and change and have my own. Costs more than that to go to a show, and I can have the appariser all to myself. vicki


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## MeadowValleyFarm (Oct 21, 2008)

Then you also don't have to work with someone elses schedual too.


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

Camille, you are right. My Saanens are American. I have their ADGA papers. They won't be registered which is a story all unto it's own and mostly between my husband and I. What word would be correct to describe the kids to make the point that they are "all" Saanen and not crossed with another breed? I apologize and thankyou for the correction. No deception intended and certainly don't want anyone to go away with the wrong idea. I'm sure all my previous buyers got all they wanted plus some.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

Judith, you could just say "Fullblood Saanen" instead of the "Purebred" which has a such a specific meaning in dairy goats.


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

Full blood has such a strong Boer connotation around here which is why I started using purebred NOT capitalized. I want people to think DAIRY when they talk to me or read an ad. *hmmm* more thoughts?


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

Maybe "fullblooded Saanen"?? Or just "pure Saanen"?? It doesn't look so Boer if you do not capitalize fullblood.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Wouldn't I like to be hanging over Kaye's shoulder as her goats get appraised!!


 :rofl Well....I didn't even realize all the Toggs went EX 90 until Bret left! I was having too much fun picking at him until he figured out I REALLY wasn't going to slit the throat of anyone La'ing 85 or below! :rofl

Actually, I was focusing too hard on what he was saying, about how parts and pieces should fit together, the finer details and all that jazz. 
I too, will do the private session, again...just because there's no one around me that wants to LA and I've got enough goats now, it's not feasable to load them all and haul.
Kaye


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

IMO.....or at least down here in the southeast. Purebred, Fullblooded, Pure Blooded, 100%....without paper's (registration) , means all the same thing. If this non-registered/can't be registered/won't ever be registered point is clearly made to the buyer.....then to some degree, it's all a moot point in what you call them.

No way that I'll ever get to the point where I have to assume all the responsiblity of doing the potential buyers homework and research for them. If the seller has given the buyer the honest truth, and given them sound advice about the animal in question........then IMO, some of the burden of making a purchasing decision lays in the hands of the buyer.

Also, since we are an "educated society", I have to assume that most folks understand that quarantee's about this or that statements, whether it be registration/health test/etc. are backed up by documentation in writing......and I really don't believe that people/breeder's that are wanting to compete at shows, DHIR, LA, etc., are gonna be in the market for non-registered stock to start with. 

To some degree, I expect some of the burden of being a "smart shopper" to lay with the buyer.

With that said....keep in mind that most of our dairy goat market in "my" part of the country, is for family milkers and that's all that concerns them. 

I know that some will disagree with my opinion, and that's OK with me. :biggrin

WHIM


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> I am just going to pay the $200 and change and have my own. Costs more than that to go to a show, and I can have the appariser all to myself. vicki


Don't forget me. I will make sure I am there to share the fee with you. I need my goats appraised for sure! I am such a newb I have nothing but LA scores to help promote my herd until we make a name showing. Well I hope I make a name showing that is.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

whimmididdle said:


> No way that I'll ever get to the point where I have to assume all the responsiblity of doing the potential buyers homework and research for them. If the seller has given the buyer the honest truth, and given them sound advice about the animal in question........then IMO, some of the burden of making a purchasing decision lays in the hands of the buyer.
> 
> To some degree, I expect some of the burden of being a "smart shopper" to lay with the buyer.


I think this is to be highly commended. When you're *brand spankin' new* to goats, you really have to be wary of the seller who gives you the "Stick with me, kid, and I'll tell ya everything you need to know... " song and dance. First of all, they don't really mean it, because you'd be a terrible burden to them, and second, *no one* can tell you *everything* you need to know.

So, maybe further sources of self-education and information would be beneficial? Such as books, articles, and websites beyond this one that would be beneficial to consume prior to making a purchase?


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2008)

Books are always good but like everything you have to take it with a grain of salt. Some of the info in those books written by so called experts gives very bad information. 

A good mentor is the best I think. Thank you Vicki for being mine. 

Troy


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

(quote author=homeacremom link=topic=6383.msg66845#msg66845 date=1225250233]
Full blood has such a strong Boer connotation around here which is why I started using purebred NOT capitalized. I want people to think DAIRY when they talk to me or read an ad. *hmmm* more thoughts?
[/quote]

Perhaps "100% Saanen, but not registered." And of course, this type of designation would go for anyone selling dairy stock who is not registering them. "100% Toggenburg, but not registered" etc.

And really I am fine with the fact that you are selling nice Saanens to folks and it sounds like you are very clear with them. I guess it would be to goat people that you need to be real clear about your registration status/American.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

stoneyheightsfarm said:


> whimmididdle said:
> 
> 
> > No way that I'll ever get to the point where I have to assume all the responsiblity of doing the potential buyers homework and research for them. If the seller has given the buyer the honest truth, and given them sound advice about the animal in question........then IMO, some of the burden of making a purchasing decision lays in the hands of the buyer.
> ...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

They are unregistered Sannens. The rest is rhetoric. All the other fullblood, purebred stuff makes the new person believe that they are getting more than they are, they aren't. It's the same song and dance the INGR is doing, these poor folks buying purebred goats through them think they can register their kids then with ADGA, can appraise their goats with ADGA can come and see us at shows with their goats. You can't.

And if you really do think that it isn't your responsiblity to give aftercare, and to mentor the folks who come to you for help than your no better than the breeders we started this thread for. If your new yourself say so, and then give them this forum as a place to get good information, don't pass yourself off to new people all knowing and then they find out later they are asking the questions they are asking of you, on this and another list!

Of course there are times I simply say, I am swamped can you please ask the forum...but you have to give back. What would happen to most of you had Kaye or others not done this forum for you? I think everyone needs to remember what it was like to be new as you sell kids to new people this spring. 

I do know my opinon of breeders changes things, look at websites, some major breeders now have a whole page on how they do things up on their websites! Vicki


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

* yes, I edited this post *
Well, :biggrin no more "purebred" Saanens here! I'll make the point that they are not Saanen x Boer or worse white Nubian x Boer another way. :crazy
None of my buyers go away thinking they can register their goats, show them at the fair, etc unless they did not listen and did not read the paper I gave them. Thanks to all I've learned here I can give great aftercare and even to folks who didn't buy from me. I give credit and pass out this forum addy as backup! Hopefully I am doing my part in putting healthy CAE free goats into backyard homesteads and teaching a new way of goat management.


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

I've really enjoyed this discussion of seller's responsibilities. We might also talk more about what makes a good buyer. When I have the opportunity to sell to someone new to goats, I place a lot of weight on how well we communicate before I complete the sale. I like to get a handle on both how much support from me will be needed, and how well the potential buyer absorbs information. I've discouraged some sales where the amount of support was more than I could do. Then there have been others that have developed into good friendships.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I hope I didn't come across in my most recent post as thinking that aftercare isn't important. I do think it is--especially for new buyers. I was speaking strictly from a buyers' perspective. I REALLY appreciate your comment, Vicki, about telling folks when you're new and not passing yourself off as all-knowing, AND your willingness to be there for new folks who didn't even buy from you. You and all the wonderful folks on this board. Where would I be w/o this forum? Probably have given up by now. There is a huge learning curve when you're new, and had I only the financial means I thought I needed going into this, I'd really be in a pickle. It has proven to be so much more involved than I anticipated, and I'm still just a beginner. I appreciate all the information, advise, encouragement, and sometimes harst truths you're willing to lay out there.


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## chewie (Jul 26, 2008)

billie--yup, without the help i've gotten here, and from someone who's currently been emailing me, i'd be so much more confused. in fact, the person who's been emailing me finally talked me thru what my goals are, which will make things a bit easier for me! i am so grateful! i do hope someday i'll have enough to share, passing it along. 

i can say by my own experience, that the post about getting the papers/paperwork when you take the goat is a good idea. if you dont' care about the paperwork, fine, but if it matters, ask that it be ready before the deal is over!

camille, your's sound great, those sound just like what i'm after! i too am only looking to get nice family milkers, not worried about shows. 

i wish more websites had prices on them, rather than 'call fror prices' and altho it'd be great to decide on a breed right away, that's not so easy--how do you know? i've got 3 right now, and the one i thought i'd love is on the bottom of my list so far. and my husband wants to try yet one more type?! 

i hope this gets put in the library, as a newbie, there is a good amt. to keep here.


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## Liberty Alpines (Nov 14, 2007)

:woohoo I just want to second what everyone else has said about giving back what others have given you - this forum has been so helpful, and I am so grateful to Vickie and all of the wonderful moderators for their hard work and advice. Sometime I would like to hear the story about how Dairy Goat Info got started! We appreciate the time that all of you take to run it - it is a wonderful resource and I have recommended it to many. :handclap


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

I try when I'm selling to ASK the person, what they want the goat for, just milk, 4-h, possibly going into showing later. I inform them why that particular goat is for sale, I sold two kids this year, out of dams that I had sold, and they went to believe it or not someone who found me from a bar of soap! lol! I explained to her why the dams sold and why they were for sale who I expected to give more milk, who I thought would potentially have the better udder, and she ended up taking both of them. I've been very happy with all the ladies who bought girls from me this year. I think they all went to happier smaller goat homes. I know some of them are very spoiled. I also recomend this web site. and When I have a copy of Jeffers hanging around I had it out with the goats with the items I use circled, and the dosages I use in my area, almost all new babie goats go with a paper on Care, and health schedule especially those 4-h whethers. Some of them got away this year without it because of my computer crash.


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