# Goat down



## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I would surely appreciate some help. I've been dealing with a headache off & on since Sat... I am exhausted, grumpy, and not thinking real well..

I got up to one of my BEST goats down!

They did not bring her up to milk this AM... she was laying in brush outside her shelter with ants crawling around... not good.

We got her carried up to the house....

4yo MM

breathing sounds raspy

no sign of trouble yesterday

milk numbers perfectly normal through yesterday... she milks in the 7-8# range with occassional rain dips to 6. 

I am E TX... humid, hot, raining since Sun

she is grinding her teeth

not wanting to get up or walk... we carried her to the house

seems weak & shaky.... 

is laying in my breakfast nook

tried to get a temp and she was open with poop there... waited did not poop, so dd went to get a temp to compare, back... still has not pooped... so she put on a glove and is just pulling the berries out gently.... fairly normal berries just a bit sticky... offering NO resistance just trying to get in a position to get a temp

temp 99.1

Obviously thinking hypocalcemia.... but not thinking real clear... suggestions please. I do not have injectible calcium, but likely can get it... I do have the liquid (not the caustic paste)


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

(comparable temp 102)

NO resistence to the banamine...


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

gave 1/2 dose banamine for pain
giving 60cc oral calcium to start


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

You really need injectable calcium to quickly reverse the condition if this is hypocalcemia......which it may be. Calcium absorbs very slowly through the digestive tract.....most of the time too slow....especially in a goat that is already in a compromised position. 

Keep a close watch for pneumonia to set in later also. I would get banamine, and something like nuflor on hand just in case.

Whim


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks Whim... 

I know on the injectible just try to get anything from a vet here...

Trying to get a hold of a local goat lady to get some we talked before out it...

did give her half/dose banamine...


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I do have nuflor... I have several meds just not the injectible calcium yet...


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm not sure whether to pop her with the nuflor yet.....maybe wouldn't hurt....I worry about pneumonia in a goat that is down much this time of the year (fever or not).....banamine was good thinking. 

Maybe try to call Vicki or Kaye.....I hope you don't loose one of your best.

Whim


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

with that temp her system is shutting down so thro the book at her enima to get the poo flowing / nudlor/ probiotics of some sort/ lactated ringers and try to warm her up some how. keep giving the calcium you have until you can get injectable. evenin this case use propalene glycal. Oin other word the kitchen sink. something may help


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks Whim & Sondra!

YEAH!! injectible calcium will be here between 3-6PM... how do I figure dose?

moved her to my sun rm... warmer & quieter... dosing her hourly with the liquid calcium.

I know not to milk her out... but her udder is fairly full should we ease some out or leave it be?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I wouldn't milk her unless realy engorged believe injectalbe is 30 cc


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## tmfinley (Feb 21, 2008)

Do you have lactated ringers? I would think it is important to keep her hydrated also. 

Tiffany


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

""""Vicki, I gave 30 cc injections of the 23% Calcium Gluconate. I just purchased a new bottle of Norcalciphos and the recommended dosage for sheep is 50-125ml. every 2-6 hours. The Norcalciphos is 26%, the bottle of CMPK I just emptied is 23.2%.""""


whim (101)


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

:yeahthat I would sock it to her . 
With this weather I personally check the whole herd myself ... one by one as those worms come out with this weather stuff and they can look great and be down the next check . They can look good body wise but you can look at them in their eyes and just know something is not right with them feeling well .


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

thanks all... temp dropped 0.3 at next hourly calcium...

calling dh to tell him to bring the calcium ASAP after he gets it...


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

Will check temps at PM milking on all goats... 

everyone seems fine except my old girl and she never seems fine. But Dolce seemed fine too... no big milk drops on ANYONE.

sigh


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Like what Whim posted, everyone can purchase the Calcium Gluc via jeffers etc...and you use it exactly like you do the CMPK injectable.

It makes little sense that if this doe was in milk fever that she would have an udder full of milk. Being down and balking at getting up on the milkstand, usually then reveals little to no milk, and then you realize you just drug and was really pissed at a doe who is very ill, as you take her temp and find it this low.

Although I don't want your to quit giving her the oral CMPK every 4 hours or so, I also want you to get her on the Nuflor (I don't use it so look up the dosage) I so much prefer other antibiotics rather than this.

Give her bo-se also, a gal in Tyler had a doe go down recently, necropsy diagnosis...white muscle disease. I don't know alot of folks who post their goats, but the ones who do I have never seen this diagnosis in our area. She doesn't copper bolus and she feeds Sweet Lix Meat maker, so likely little if any selenium is being absorbed...she presented very similarily and what perked my interest in this doe also was that she had loss motor control, and also wasn't pooping with her anus open. So I thought b vitamins treating her for polio and give her bo-se and subq fluids...with her immediatly feeling better I of course attributed it to the B vitmains and fluids.....if she had continued with the bo-se each day it could very likely have saved the doe. Selenium is about muscle.....so if this lethargy is caused by it, which is also about a lack of E in her diet...than her leg muscles, and even her anal sphincther could be involved...and her heart.

All the normal things, are her gums healthy pink (showing good circulation of blood) are her eyelids normal pink for your herd, showing no anemia.

Make sure you worm her, put her on a sulfa profilactically to get her through this. 

Fluids first, and really push them. Vicki


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

OK reading Vickie....

What antibiotic do you prefer? I have - gentamiacin, nuflor, pen g, biomycin, baytil

This was not just balking this was had to be CARRIED... 

bottom eyelids are pink...

giving bo se now 2cc (weight 101)

I had not known that about calcum glucanate.... from Jeffers...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Give her more bo-se...it's 1cc per 40 pounds minimally, so just give her 2cc more, then use the 2.5cc tommorrow if she pulls through and give it daily.

What B vitmains do you have?

I use Naxcel and Excennel...if you choose the gent, it's off the milkstring. Make sure you get a good dosage on your nuflor and give it with the banamine. Keep the banamine at only 1cc because you do not want to give her too much and lower that temp more.

Do you have lactated ringers? 

I will only be on here another 30 minutes or so...call me if you need me I will get back with you if I don't answer, I have someone coming out. Vicki


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

OK increasing Bose thank you!

fortified b complex

we gave her only 1/2 dose of banamine... 1/2cc I always start with 1/2 dose on that one

no lactated ringers

dug through my box... also have Tylan 50

I DO have thiamine...


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Our Use of NUFLOR

The dose is 3cc/100#'s once a day for 4-5 days. I go one more day after I see improvement. In conjunction with the Nuflor for pnuemonia, Banamine should be used for 5 days to prevent scar tissue in the lungs.


Nuflor is a drug I save for respiritory, uterine infections and an acute case of mastitis. It will cross into the lungs,uterine and mammary.

I dose according to severity of infection...2x's a day is reserved for ACTUAL pnuemonia...HIGH TEMP-105 or above, snot hanging out of nose,lung congestion, head down,ect..I'll use the twice a day for 2 days as a loading dose...then back it down to 1x daily IF there is an improvement.

I ONLY give Nufor SQ...it's too painful to give in a muscle. I also give it at the bottom of the ribcage about 1/2 way between the elbow/last rib. Bottle says neck...but I don't give anything in the neck. It's given in the neck SQ for cattle to keep from loosing cuts of meat.


Whim (file notes)


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Lynn I don't recommend this to most instances but I have boiled water and made my own lactated ringers to save a doe. uses calcium glute in with it and did injections sq. give her a bunch of BVits. at this stage you have nothing to lose


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I can't write fast enough when listening to you Vicki...

OK 

giving the extra bo se
giving warm molasses water
doing thiamin at 1/2cc every 4 hours???
starting biomycin at 3.5cc/50# so 7cc

continuing oral calcium hourly

dh should have the injectible cmpk here between 3-4PM


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

temp was 98.7


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

thanks Whim.... doing biomycin per Vickie for now...

fixing up a chart for Dolce... will help Becca & I keep track... we are both running on empty


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

OK putting it here too (besides my notes)... I have - 

60cc oral cmpk hourly until injectible arrives
30cc injectible cmpk every 4hrs sub q

6cc bose initially then 
2.5cc daily

1/2cc thiamin every 4hrs

7cc biomycin 2x/day

warm molasses water or warm milk as often as possible... goal every 30-60min

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order from Jeffers asap calcium gluconate to have on hand
order from hoeggers asap ringers lactate to have on hand

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go ahead and bose the herd just in case...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Whim is this info in goatkeeping 101 in antibiotics or something? Could you start and antibiotic list to put in there if it is not? Thanks, Vicki


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

temp coming back up!!!!!!!!!

99.4

and she has been up wandering and pooped in 3 different places!!!


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

and she fought the most recent cmpk dose


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

V.....I'll have to search that one.....that came from my personal file here...mostly via K.W.


Lynn...stay on what V says..... but I'm still questioning the use of antibiotics right now....and especially with her coming back up a bit. If those lungs sound clear at all, then I'm gonna wonder whether to mess with that digestive track with the kill off that antibiotics may cause.

I'm gonna back off, and watch this play out now.......maybe I'll learn something...please keep us posted.


prayers sent,

Whim


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I to would have started the antibiotic just because this doe was near death and Lynn has nothing to lose by hitting her with everything imaginable. Glad to see that temp coming back up and that she is getting up on her own


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

understood Whim... we'll see... her breathing has sounded rough and was getting shallow when I was talking with Vickie... 

feeling cautiously optimistic... so appreciate the help and prayers from you all... 

AND a dear friend.... is giving dh some lactate ringers.... I'll have it this afternoon... 

ok just in listening and definitely a snore sound to her breathing... a rasp...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's regional but a doe down in our heat and humidity even if from milk fever etc....will have opportunistic worms and cocci, previously kept under control by her immune system, multiply quickly sucking her blood. And goats don't die from the original problem, they die from pnemonia nearly all the time. Aggrevated by the metobolic crash this doe obviously had. She will come out of this with a huge worm and cocci burden and an overgrowth of pasturella she needs help with keeping all these numbers low.

Worm, sulfa, antibiotic are as important for getting over the hump as fluids, b vitamins etc.

Excellent news on the temp Lynn. Vicki


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

just did the dimethox 40%

will do cydectin in a bit... trying to space some of this out...


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

99.9 and FIGHTING the oral meds...


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Glad to hear about the "fighting"!


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

OK could NOT get the dimethox in her... really fought and did the I'm dying/choking goat thing... then hiccuped for several min afterwards and hiccuped out more poop... 

then got up and wandered the house... pooping...

temp was up to 100.6!

Dh just dropped off the norcalciphos.... about to do the first round...


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## tmfinley (Feb 21, 2008)

Thanks Vicki for mentioning about the worming. I had a doe down a couple of weeks ago and since she has really had bad fecals. Now I know why. 
Tiffany


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

101.1 and stood and peed all over my sun rm before going back to her blanket...


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Awesome! Lots of us praying and you're doing a great job!!!


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

And she peed a TON... just kept going & going...


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Sounds like she might just make it. Good job Lynn keeping my fingers crossed for full recovery. Bit that temp is just great!


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I really expected to have lost her by now... so thrilled to see pee poop & temp going up...

This is Dolce... she is my top MM milker and just in general a sweet gentle non drama queen goat...


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

She is EATING ALFALFA and drinking from the bucket!!!!!!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

:handclap Been following this pretty much all afternoon. Congrats Lynn on your fortitude. Tammy


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

What a turnaround! Good going. You have to be so relieved.
SO glad she is responding to your care.

Lee


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

You are doing a great job with her.. wonderful for you she is turning around
Barb


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## Seamus (Apr 9, 2009)

What a fantastic job you've done!  It's fairly late here, almost midnight, and I just read through everything you and your girl have gone through. Hope when I get on tomorrow that I'll read even better news. Saying a prayer of thanksgiving & one for her to continue her recovery _AND_ one for you 

Shawna


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## donna (Oct 26, 2007)

:yes Keep up the good work! Prayers for you both!


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks all... just got up and she is still alive and peed again in the night... what a cleaning job we'll have.

As soon as I can see straight dd & I will get her up again and start temping and dosing. DD dozed on the couch till 4AM... next round is at 8AM... in about 10min. 

I set up an hourly chart for us to remember what when and record notes and temps...

My mind is not what it used be... to quote Cathy Ryan (Tom Clancy fan here) "If it isn't written down it didn't happen"


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

100.0 
scouring now... was cow plops when I got up... as we started doing everything to her she started thick liquid.

just gave biomycin, cmpk, and thiamine

we also just put her outside...


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

This was the part that was worrying me....killing off too much stuff in the digestive track at one time.
Hang in there, cause your battle is not over yet.

praying,

Whim


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

reminders please on what to do for the scouring?? It used to be probios, but have I not been reading that is worthless in a rumen??

And Whim I agree... but not sure she'd still be alive doing less... 

We are doing...

cmpk inj	30cc/4hrs 
thiamine	inj	0.5cc/4hrs 
biomycin	inj	7cc/12hrs	
dimethox	oral	20cc/daily	for 5 days	
bose inj	2.5cc/daily

We were giving fluids.... yesterday, but she is eating & drinking now so stopped...


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## icboers (Feb 1, 2009)

If you have any red raspberry leaves work great for the scours plus they are loaded with Vitamin C. I usually use Spectam Scour Halt (for pigs) if the raspberry leaves don't work.

I don't know about Probios, I still use it and it works for me, but I usually don't use it for scours. just as a preventative if I give anti-biotics or hauling them somewhere.

Karla


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

The magnesium in the CMPK could be causing the scouring. Could be a combination of all that you are giving her, is stressing her digestive tract.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Excess C can cause scouring so becareful adding anything with C.

The pig pump (spectinomycin) will work if the scours are due to what the meds target which, I believe, is e-coli?

slippery elm is worth a shot...lots of probiotics. yogurt. kefir grains if you have excess. stealing cud if all else fails.


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## icboers (Feb 1, 2009)

> Excess C can cause scouring so be careful adding anything with C.


Slippery Elm bark also contains Vit C. I have used this also to stop scours, but mostly in my bottle babies. i use the Raspberry leaves on my big goats.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

And what about baking soda? Tammy


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

What's up Lynn ? I know that rough storms were coming through there a bit ago....hope everything is OK.

Elm , blackberry , raspberry leaf is all good for the tummy. I'm not sure this gal is able yet, but if you live where you can walk her outside your fence to more wild browse like wild blackberry.....let her nose around and choose what she will.....don't let her completely pig out though......moderation right now.

Whim


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## cloverhillgoats (May 23, 2008)

We always use sweet gum leaves at the first sign and it usually works. When they are sick, though, it is Spectam scour halt and Revitilyte-Gelling from TSC. Also, any gelatin should work. HTH God Bless!


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

thanks all...

dh was rained out and took me to town while dd held down the fort and the goat. 

still scouring
temp 100.6

just moving her out again... rear legs are weak, but she'll walk...

moved the cmpk to every 6 hrs... 

she ate some more pellets...

nursing my baby then going to try yogurt thinned with a syringe 

she would not take it from a bowl or a bottle


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

ok took yogurt thinned with milk through a syringe...


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Ok this is what I would do if she were here. She would get only alfalfa but I would make a slurry of beet pulp and suringe into her.
I take dry beat pulp with lots of water heat in MW and cook for abt 10 min then put in blender and grind up good then add enough water to go thru syringe. this not only helps the stomach get back to ruminating but also puts some nutrients back into the goat and water. you can also give her pepto for scours. I wouldn't stop doing anything you are giving her now but make certain she is hydrated.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

How is she doing Lynn? I know you are being bombarded with information. It's going to be hard to descern between what to do and not, getting second guessed by those who didn't answer the first questions you put up. It's easy to critique now. 

Pulling them back from near death even with a some recovery (calm before the storm) will nearly always have set backs. I can only share what I would do. Good luck with your doe and I am just a phone call away. Vicki


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

Her temp is still hovering between 100.3-100.6
I moved her out last night to my best shelter...
she IS eating alfalfa still
cut browse for her today and she gobbled it
still scouring milkshake like
she has decided she likes the goats milk yogurt warmed and thinned with goats milk
still fights certain meds
prefers to lay down, but can stand up and walk...

I am thrilled she is still alive. 
I am worried about her. 
I am thrilled everyone else is still doing well... no problems.

Dd & I are tired... and I am now fighting an ear infection. 

holding on... 

I will say her eyes look good... she does not have that "I am about to pass on look"... she LOOKS alert....


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I so appreciate the help!!!

Just feeling drained...


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## Seamus (Apr 9, 2009)

Good job on keeping your girl going. Take care of yourself, too. Hope your ear infection passes quickly.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Wonderful news. Sorry you are not feeling better. Vicki


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I guess I'd love reassurance... is this a positive update or ??

Thanks so much... 

about to do her 5PM meds....


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

With her hanging on like this taking in the yogurt and eating the alfalfa being able to get up at all on her own are all signs on the possitive side. keep in mind the milk /yogurt can also give her the scours so make sure she is drinking lots of water.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

Personally...I still think you have some hope here in this case. As long as this gal is not in severe pain, I wouldn't give up. I sure hope you get to feeling better also.

Whim


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

no more teeth grinding... no signs of pain... no more rough breathing/lung sounds....


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Keep up the great work Lynn Tammy


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

20min until next round of meds & check....


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Hope all is going well this morning more downpour of rain here.


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Hi Lynn,

I missed the beginning of your goat's illness. Hang in there, you're making progress and she is too. Hope you are feeling better too.


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

100.7
not sure on scours... her tail was cleaner (dd's report... I need to go down... I overslept)
and she had moved out and was in the yard!!! Last night she was in the inner room... the shelter she is in is a building with 2 rms... the inner then the one that opens into the yard...

she she is eating, drinking, and moving on her own

temp is still too low and unsure of the scour situation.


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

I am assuming you have taken otherr herdmate temps to make sure that this is really her temp?

P


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

Honestly... since the first day when we did it I have not... we got the initial comparison temp

will do so right now!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Important! I had a doe that had a fever in comparison to herdmates a while back. Kept trying to figure out what to treat her for--obviously not feeling well, but no concrete symptoms. After a couple days, it still looked like her temp was high, even though she acted better. Did herdmates temps and they were all high then--noone ill, just a hot day. Maybe just a cool day at your place? Hoping for a good outcome! Sounds like you're doing an awesome job with her! Hope your ear feels better soon!


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

Well not operator or thermometer error it seems...

Dolce (MM doe in question) 100.9
Carmella (same age MM doe slightly darker) 103.8
Nutmeg (LM that is basically the same color) 102.3

So.... ?????

It is warm & wet here....

these goats are in 3 different yards, but all connected


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

OK I cannot tell if she is still scouring in the yard she is in... her tail is cleaner though...

she RAN from me when I just went out...


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

so do I continue cmpk every 4 hrs if she is eating & drinking & up and able to run... but still has a low temp???


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

most recent temp.... 101.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## catdance62 (Mar 2, 2009)

glad she seems to be doing better!


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I would back off the CMPK a bit but continue until she is up to snuff. Good job Lynn


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

:crazy :crazy :crazy

OK we had a major storm move through with thunder & lightening when time for her last meds last night... so skipped. 

This AM... her temp (using a digital people thermometer as I have been) was in the 95's! DD took it twice.... *I* took it 3x with 2 thermometers.... a herdmate was over 102....

I am totally confused... she was laying down and had to be gotten up, but took 2 of us to do her temp... she is still scouring... so was the herdmate... but we've had rain 8 days now.... 

cutting fresh browse for her.... thinking I need to go to tsc for a vet thermometer... I've had them... but they seem to go missing...


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well darn that is not good but those storms can really upset them even to the point of entro. Hopefully she comes back out of this episode


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Is she chewing cud at all? It's how they keep themselves warm. Are you still using your antibiotic and the lactated ringers? Vicki


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

not sure if she is still chewing cud and I have never stolen cud before....

temp back up to 100

did not fight her meds at all.. 

yesterday she looked perky and peppy... today... not. 

had not done the lactated ringers because she was still eating/drinking/peeing... so I still have it and can do it if needed...


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I would try and steal a cud from another goat. A few years ago, I had a doe who just couldn't seem to rebound from a case of milk fever. I managed to steal a cud from another doe. The next morning she was markedly improved. Her temp was back to normal and her appetite good. I still have this doe and she continues to do well. Kathie


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## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

we lost her


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2009)

:down Sorry

Whim


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## Seamus (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm so very sorry that she's gone.  Both of you put up a good fight.


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## donna (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh, no! I am so sorry! :sniffle


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