# Doe will not lay down!!!



## trueblessings

Doe due January 3rd, have seen some drainage on and off for 2 weeks. She has now been standing for two days. We know because husband and I are taking turns at night checking on her and she is not laying down. Will stand with head against the wall, she is eating very well, as usual for her. I used the Ketones stix to check her urine because of an odor, it was negative. Her bag is full and tight has been for about a week. 

Is there something that might speed this along. I'm getting concerned. I do have some Oxytoxin, but thought this was just to help them pass placenta.

Thanks
Lynn


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## KJFarm

This doe could very well be low on Calcium and cannot progress into labor. DON"T use the Oxytocin!!! Have you got CMPK?


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## trueblessings

Yes, the vet would only give me 30 cc though. Would it hurt her if she is not low in calcium and I give it anyway?

At what dosage with what little I have. 

Lynn


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## KJFarm

You can't hurt her with Calcium, any excess is excreted in the urine. The dosage for CMPK Injectable given SQ (warmed to body temp) is 30cc divided into 2 shots. Give it every 2 hours. So, you only have enough for 1 dose. Try to get the vet to give you a whole bottle.


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## trueblessings

OK, will give what I have and pray it helps. 

Lynn


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## prairie nights

Hmmm, with a bag full and tight for a week now, is it too full and needs some milk eased out? Hard udder can't be something comfy to lie on. Outside of the calcium already mentioned.


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## LLB101

Someone here will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure, lol, but the calcium nutri-drench might help too. I don't fight with mine to drench them, I just mix it with a little apple juice and water and they guzzle it right down. I start that as soon as ligaments start changing and go thru the first day after kidding. About 3-4x in 24 hrs. Probably more than needed, but it only wastes a little $ if she has plenty and pees it out. I think it makes sure she's well hydrated, calciumed, and has extra energy. Like I said, I think someone will correct me if its wrong, but mine haven't missed a beat when they've kidded so far. She also has free choice fresh water of course.

I'll do something like 1 oz of nturi-drench to 2 oz of apple juice and enough water to fill the bowl, maybe 6 oz. If they don't quite finish the whole dose, I'll offer them salty minerals which are somehow a real treat out of my hand vs their free choice dish LOL, or as a last resort, I'll give bits of salty organic corn chips, no more than 2 chips broken into dime sized bits, and then they always finish the drink.


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## NubianSoaps.com

There is very little of anything in nutradrench if you read the label, you would have to feed an ounce to even get to the E a doe needs in one day  It's nothing but propylene glycol and vitamins and minerals, low levels at that. Put some on your finger and put it into your mouth, really think the first thing you should put in your kids mouths at birth or ill does is something this caustic, you can be assured it will stop them from eating normally.

You can purchase your own injectable calcium gluconate via jeffers you don't need your vet, makes little sense that he would pull out 30cc from a jug that costs about $7.

But biggy is to clean up and go in, see what you are dealing with, it could be she has ringwomb or simply a big dead kid, alot of times big dead kids simply don't trigger labor like they should, and if you have a forsure due date, 2cc IM of lute will get things going. I would milk her out until she is comfortable also, but certainly don't milk her out, she needs that readily absorbable calcium in that colostrum she has made.

Even if delivery is another day away, she is telling you that something is seriously wrong, the does will give you clues like this, from laying flat out, smashing themselves into walls and feeders against their side like they are trying to maneuver kids, up and down way more than normal...it means you have kids mispositioned and you need to be there when she goes into labor.

But lack of calcium usually gives you a doe in obvious labor who doesn't push, they grunt some, but pretty much give it up.

Also oral preparations like CMPK are only used if you don't have the injectable on hand, please have the injectable form of either CMPK or calcium gloconate on hand, they are super cheap. Vicki


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## KJFarm

You could probably find the 23% Calcium Gluconate at TSC or a feed dealer.


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## trueblessings

Oral CMPK, would this be MFO Solution. I do have that. 

And Vicki, Due date is for sure, since I walked her to Buck pen for breeding and she was removed, same day. 

No grunting this time. She has done so with past two pregnancies, but not this one. This whole pregnancy has been different for her. Last year she did birth one very large buck and one very small one, her udder also showed this, one large side and one small side, both were bottle raised, so it had nothing to do with them nursing. 

Having given Injectable CMPK that I have, should I continue with MFO solution?

It's gonna be another long night. Guess I'll be sleeping in the milk room.

Lynn


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## LLB101

My thoughts and prayers are with you and her!


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## trueblessings

Just returned from barn and I did milk her some, the udder is a full tight, not an edema tight. I did not have to squeeze much at all for milk to flow freely. Just before coming in (we were out there awhile after putting her back in pen) she has layed down. So here's hoping she was just uncomfortable. 

Thanks everyone, I'll keep you posted.

Lynn


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## KJFarm

The MFO will work in a pinch - just be careful and don't aspirate into her lungs. Give it every 2 hours also. When they are low on Calcium their bones are hurting - it is painful, so she is miserable and didn't want to lay down. I've had 2 does do this in past years. The just stood and shifted weigh from one leg to the other. I took them to my vet and had IV Calcium done, and they went into labor very quickly.


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## buckrun

You need to watch her for staph if she had a lopsided udder.


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## stacy adams

How's she doing, Lynn?


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## trueblessings

Good Morning all,

Long night and still no kids, but she did rest better. She got up long enough to eat grains, sniffed at her hay and layed back down. No drainage but I noticed her breathing is different. By her not eating her hay, this is very off for Riley. So here's hoping she goes by this afternoon. 

Her udder is even, and probably best udder she has had, this is her 3rd freshening.

I am not giving MFO solution since it has that Propylene glycol in it, I am going to call another vet this morning see if I can get some more CMPK. Oh yeah, I mean't to mention that the vet only gave me the limited amount of CMPK because all he had was a partial bottle. (I know what your thinking, because I did too) If he does not keep supplies on hand to treat my goats, what kind of a goat vet is he going to be. And this is vet that came hightly recommended to me. 

Time to get back to the barn.
Lynn


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## stacy adams

Good Luck Lynn! I hope you get what you want (girls vs boys)


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## Caprine Beings

Her due date is today right? I would go in there and do a vag check. It doesn't hurt them to have vag checks and sometimes it actually helps out. Does can have kids early too, and if she doesn't go today I would be calling my vet.
I am praying that your doe kids out for you normally and you have happy bouncy healthy kids.
Tam


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## trueblessings

She is now pawing the ground. When standing will frequently look backwards. Tail head ligaments are gone.
She seems to be doing ok, except for being uncomfortable.

Like you all I want doelings to, but especially since these kids are from a buck I no longer have. Riley gave us 2 buckling last year from this same Sire. 

Bring on the babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lynn


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## Sondra

Yep sounds like babies anytime now. Don't let her be in labor or wait too long to go in and see if all is ok


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## Caprine Beings

YAY! I agree with Sondra. Soon you'll be having bouncing kids and lots to do Congrats.


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## trueblessings

Well, she is lying down and has been for nearly an hour. Seems to be sleeping, and grunting (lol), I have monitor with me and can hear her very plain, so I know she had not moved. 

I called another vet that I once used and tried to get CMPK. They told me it is for IV administration only. I replied it can be given SQ, and again was told IV Administration only. So it seems I'm out of luck using the vets around here. 

I'll check back later, thanks all for your help, kind words and prayers.

Lynn


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## stoneyheightsfarm

If need be, you can get oral from TSC or feed stores--I've never had to use either, but have heard positive things about it if injectable isn't available. Praying for doelings for you, and soon!


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## KJFarm

Both the CMPK injectable and the 23% Calcium Gluconate say they are for IV use. But they can be and are used SQ with much success, lots of vets will argue this point. Please don't delay in getting more Calcium into her. The MFO Solution does not have enough Propylene Glycol in it to hurt her - use it, just make sure she is swallowing it and you are not letting her aspirate it into her lungs.
By all mean, do a two-finger check, not your whole hand, to see if you can tell if she is dilating or if you feel a kid trying to come.


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## Jonna

sending good kidding vibes your way


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## trueblessings

Still no kids. :sigh

No drainage, no pushing, no nothing. She is eating hay again, after just nibling this morning, ate grains like her usual self (the freight train). We have been in barn most of the day trying to improve warmth in kidding pen since it is so cold. 

I remember reading a post, someone stating that nubians usually go on day 153, is this correct? Maybe I'm just paranoid, husband tells me all the time I worry to much. 

Thanks
Lynn


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## Sondra

I have used liquid cmpk with good results and have also used Sue Reiths homemade cmpk using people stuff it is in Goat 101.


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## Dana

I've never done a vag check, is that were you just gel up and go in with a few fingers? Should you be able to go all the way in with your hand?


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## Caprine Beings

If you can go all the way in with your hand your doe's cervix is fully open. A vag check is usually done with two fingers. Lube up and insert your two fingers, yu should be able to feel the cervix. And you can definately tell when the doe is shut, opening, and fully open.
Tam


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## buckrun

nubians usually go on day 153, 


Every goat is an individual and every pregnancy is different. The onset of labor is stimulated by hormones from the pituitary gland of the kids. Males produce more so sometimes all male litters will come a bit early and all girls a bit late but it is never anything you can predict by breed or even from one year to the next in the same doe bred to the same buck. Be sure your doe is getting alfalfa if she is getting a lot of grain. She will end up with calcium imbalance for sure with all grain intake and nothing to balance all that phos. Don't let her talk you into it!
Lee


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## trueblessings

Hey Lee,
Maybe that's what I've got, several little doe that do not want to come into this so very cold world right now and they are putting it off till the very last minute. 

Lynn 


Still nothing and I just came from the barn, again :sigh
And I have another doe due tomorrow, luckly we were able to ready another pen for birth. I just hope they don't go at the same time again. They did this to me last year. We barely got Riley's two cleaned up when Holly started screaming and we went running. But for the next two days it's just me, no help. All available help is either sick or will be at work.


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## NubianSoaps.com

It takes alot more than two fingers unless your fingers are very long to do a check of the cervic. She should be way loose enough to simply put lube on your fingers and go in. None of us had kids without a doctors or midwives hands up inside her, so just go do it. Wash up, take off jewelry and with it kidding season everyones nails are short (because we chew them to the nub waiting and worrying 

My girls go 150 days nearly like clockwork.

Like Janie said, there is minute amounts of PG in oral calcium drenches to make them sweet for the does to drink them, a whole nother thing than giving PG on it's own or nutra drench which is only PG as it's liquid. Give it now, if your up checking give her somemore.

Unchecked hypocalcemia will start you down the road for ketosis, the blood pressure rises the kids die, then if the doe isn't delivered she does also, or she strokes on you, or goes into congestive heart failure.

In your post to me you said she got alfalfa pellets towards the end of her pregnancy, reread Sue Reith's articles on how important calcium is every day of the pregnancy. Your doe is also ripe for milk fever as she kids so keep up with the alfalfa pellets and don't increase grain very fast, also don't milk her all the way out when you do start milking her, she may be using some of this calcium for her blood and bones. Watch her carefully after she kids for a low temp, shivering/shaking/unsteadiness in the rear. Let us know how she does. Vicki


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## stacy adams

The year before last, I lost a dear doe to inexperience. I didn't know to check or how far to check or or.. either way, it was my fault. There was a lot of talk about "going in" and being brave enough to do it, mostly by Vicki (thank you)

here is an excerpt..

"If everyone this year did more pelvics, before, during and after labor and delivery, you will gain soo much confidence. Learn what a closed cervix feels like. What an open and ready to push cervix feels like, the difference between an older doe who is pushing 5 times, and the kid is nearly out, and a FF who pushes 5 times, and has 25 more to go before even getting the head engaged. What a normal placenta feels and looks like, what an empty uterus feels like.

We all will loose kids, we all will have horrible deliveries, and a death of a doe. But your numbers will go way down if you stop guessing that everything is fine and feel for it." Vicki

Thank you Vicki.


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## Nupine

Do you recommend do this if you are not sure if your doe [who may be do soon] is even bred? I know they do this with cattle.


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## Caprine Beings

I must have long fingers then, cause I only have to use two, it didn't strick me until I read your post Vicki that hands are different sizes too, DUH! I also took that info and have been training kids around here to do the same thing. I can say boers are different though, much more space to move around in and I thought I'd never get my arm back!
Tam


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## KJFarm

Tam, I only have to use 2 fingers also, and I don't consider my fingers long - actually I have small hands!!!!


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## stacy adams

Nupine said:


> Do you recommend do this if you are not sure if your doe [who may be do soon] is even bred? I know they do this with cattle.


I wouldn't hurt, if that's what your asking.


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## Caprine Beings

How is your doe doing today?


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## trueblessings

Riley has still not kidded. She is acting and eating normally today and is her usual old mean self. 

My other doe that is due today (Holly) also is showing no signs anything is gonna happen any time soon. 

I just don't know. The vet is to make a farm call here Wednesday, early am. 

I've thought about doing the cervical check, but I don't know what I'm doing, and would not know what I'm feeling. I had to go in with Holly last year and bout had a panic attack. She had three, one we had to pull, the other two were trying to come at same time, one backwards. If my husband had not been here to help and 
telling me to "stay calm you can do this",I would have lost her. After it was all over with I started crying and swearing I'd never do this again, never breed her again because she has so much trouble giving birth

I truly admire you ladies that seem to have nerves of steel. I'm just to fearful of doing something that will do more harm than good. 

I have today started the MFO solution since you say pg will not hurt her. I'm giving 6oz every 4 hours, hummm maybe thats why Riley acting like her usual self, she's high!!!! :lol
Lynn


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## stoneyheightsfarm

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,8854.0.html

On that thread, Legend Hills has a post on the first page about going in that I found particularly helpful.


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## trueblessings

Thank you for the post Billie. After reading it I was wondering what happened to your parrot mouth buck? Did he make it?

Lynn


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## stoneyheightsfarm

He wound up being the largest, most vigorous of the bunch--nursed well and all. He fed our family for over a week!


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## trueblessings

Riley report: Still no kids, she is acting fine, eating everything in site.

Billie, you ate him!!!!!!! I thought you were going let him be a pet wether for your children.


Lynn


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## stoneyheightsfarm

Welllllll.... If we had another pasture fenced that he could just mow, we could have kept him. We just can't feed an unproductive mouth with our current setup. Fwiw, our son said it was the best meat he ever tasted!


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## stacy adams

Lynn..


> I truly admire you ladies that seem to have nerves of steel. I'm just to fearful of doing something that will do more harm than good.


Seriously, nerves of steel? NO WAY! Personally, I'm a nervous wreck and constantly telling the does "I'm sorry" Ok, maybe Vicki has nerves of steel.. :biggrin


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## NubianSoaps.com

I truly admire you ladies that seem to have nerves of steel. I'm just to fearful of doing something that will do more harm than good.
.......................

Lynn, take it a step further, what harm can you do putting your fingers in to check? It's how you gain knowledge. Think about how big the kids are when they get out, certainly bigger than your fist and forearm, probably even bigger than your husbands.

Stacy, even I have my limits, but imgaine in a large herd having the vet out to check each doe who has problems or it seems she is having problems, my vet would be rich and I would not have goats very long. Vicki


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## trueblessings

Ok she is passing her goo, she ate again very well this morning, and no I still don't have kids.

But I did do the two finger check, two is all that would go them it seemed like bone all around, it was tight. 

Does this mean she is not dialated fully and not ready yet, I'm almost out of MFO solution.

And yes I'm bout ready to start panicing.

Lynn


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## trueblessings

10:00 gave another dose of MFO and at 12:02pm Riley kidded with two bucklings, both of normal size and doing fine. 

She on the other hand was doing ok until about 1:30pm, she started pushing again like she was about to kid again, but only passed a very large afterbirth. Then it started, she began to shake some and then it got a little worse, I gave another dose of MFO and some alf pellets with a little grain. But she slung the pellets to the side and went after the grains. When I left the barn she was eating hay. So she is eating good. 

What now?


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## Caprine Beings

:handclap Congratulations! Wow, two bucks. So glad Riley is doing better. Just keep a close watch on her. Have you offered some warm water? Tam


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## Sondra

Congratulations! sounds like everything is OK just keep watch on her and for me pwesonally she would only get alfalfa pellets and hay tonight. Keep a close watch on her and give more MFO tonight don't milk her all the way out for a couple days till you know she is OK


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## trueblessings

OK, no grains, just Alfalfa pellet. Yes she has been offered warm water and drank-a-plenty.

Her shaking has stopped for now, she still will not lie down and I can tell she is give out. The bucklings are sleeping, I wished she would rest. From the monitor I hear her eating her pellets now. 

Thanks All, I'll post pictures ASAP

Lynn


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## stoneyheightsfarm

Can you get a bale of hay under her for her to rest on?


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## Qvrfullmidwife

"You can't hurt her with Calcium, any excess is excreted in the urine."

Excess calcium can cause serious issues, including potentially fatal cardiac arythmias.

That said the amt that you have on hand is unlikely to do so.


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## trueblessings

1st buckling not doing well as the second. He has still to walk around unassited. He also does not nurse well. 

Matt just home with my BoSe, so on my way to barn to give it. Anything eles I can do to help this one. 

As far as the calcium issue, I'm a bet confused. Excess is ok, is excreted or Excess cause cardiac issues?

Lynn


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## Qvrfullmidwife

In people excessive blood calcium can cause cardiac arythmias which may be subtle but can be seen on EKG before they cause symptoms. When we were dealing with an issue with a goat we misdiagnosed her as having hypocalcemia and she ended up with calcium levels that came back as "unreadably high" after being treated with SQ CMPK. She was on the verge of cardiac arrest due to it.

Generally speaking some excess calcium will be excreted in the urine but when youare giving shots of it steadily over a period of time to treat a deficiency you can build up to a dangerous level quickly if you really do not have a low calcium level. So generally--dont worry about high calcium foods. DO worry about giving repeated shots of CMPK "just ion case", to cover your bases.


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## trueblessings

I milked a quart from Riley, keeping an eye on her legs for shaking. She did and is fine, so far.

Still problems with Buckling #1, he acts weak in the rear. I put him to the teat and he pulls maybe twice and stops. He is trying to get around. Have given 1/2 cc BOSE and vitamin E capsule. 

Never had kids in this cold (15 tonight), Kidding pen is heated with heat lamps and is usually 15 to 20 degree warmer than outside temp. They have on their goat coats, and a heat lamp close to them. What would any of you do and are doing with these cold temps. 

Lynn


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## trueblessings

*She still will not lie down*. This is not like her at all, she has the last two kiddings lain down with kids, but she is at one side of the pen, they are at the other under the heat lamp. She is standing with head against the wall kinda swaying from side to side. She is exhausted I know. I have something for her to prop on but she is not using it.

Since I went in before delivery do I need to give her an antibiotic shot? Would a shot of banimine help, could she still be in pain? Why won't she rest?

Lynn


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## Anita Martin

I would give banamine for sure. And keep up the calcium. Lots of warm water. A coat. Good heat and draft free stall area.


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## Ashley

Could there be some reason that laying down hurts or is uncomfortable?


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## wardarden

Lynn,

I've been watching your posts about Riley and her two new babies. I am hoping and praying for you and here that all works out well. Sounds like you are doing great. But I wondered if you've given her any de-wormer yet?

Best wishes!
Arden Ward
Trinity Rose Oberhasli
Murfreesboro, TN


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## Qvrfullmidwife

I have one reason a doe wont lay down but I would be STUNNED if this was the reason here...

We had a doe who was "off". Nothing I could put my finger on, she just didnt seem herself. She was our herd queen. She was maybe sl rounder than normal...sl off feed, everything was just slightly off. We finally went to the vet because nothing we were trying was making a difference and she was very special to us. I felt like a fool saying "I dont know why we are here, she just isnt herself...".

Part of the problem was that though we heard rumen sounds she didnt seem tobe actgively chewing her cud.

He looked, listened. He saw her try to bring up a cud and fail. He speculated about some kind of obstruction...and said "lets take a picture...we have this nifty new machine, we can see anythng with it!"

They took a pic but I guess the new machine failed, they had to repeat it. Then repeated it again. And again. 

FInally he called me in and said "we took 4 different pics because I thought there ws something wrong with the picture we were getting, but it seems to be true..."

She had ruptured her diaphragm. Much of her abdominal contents were in her chest and we could see pockets of infection starting. It was apparently a headbutting match gone awry, with her taking a blow to the chest. I asked how she could even be on her feet with that kind of situation and he said he hadn't a clue, that was why they repeated the scans so many times, the severity of the pictures didnt match with the milk clinical picture.

We took her home to put herdown ourselves because they indicated no hope. She just didnt seem that sick, though, so we waited. The only sign we really ever saw that we could put our finger on was that she soon reached a point where she would not lay down. clearly she could not breathe if she wasnt on her feet. When we did put her down it was because she was clearly so tired, having been on her feet for so long that it was unkind to keep her going.

Anyway obviously this is a once in a lifetime thing, likely only on Swede Farm, we are known for having odd things happen.

But...maybe for some reason she is not laying down because it is hard for her to breathe? How does her chest sound? Rattly at all?


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## stoneyheightsfarm

Is it possible that she has an injury? Shoulder? Hip?


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## NubianSoaps.com

Just a note on the calcium, giving it orally there is not way you can give too much, in fact I would be an ounce every 2 hours isn't even going to be enough to pull a doe out of hypocalcemia or milkfever. Now injected or especially IV, you simply can kill them with a vet who knows nothing about goats and calcium IV.

Kids born to moms with metobolic disease like this can start to fail after they are born, same reason as mom, lack of the basics...you can't hurt them by giving bo-se daily for awhile, and really push the vitamin E capsules, 400 IU snip the ends, squirt in the their mouth, at least daily until 100%. I just use the people kind from walmart, it's routine management here. Make sure the kids are getting enough to eat and stay warm, not hot. They should be frisky after meals, with warm full tummies that fill your hand when you pick them up slightly with your hand under their tummy, they should sleep alot, if not, they are hungry. We routinely treated the kids with CMPK injections under the skin when they were born to moms in this condition. Of course 6cc until the lump was gone is all you can do in an infant. Vicki


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## stacy adams

We had a doe with aspiration pneumonia that turned into chronic heart failure.. she wouldn't lay down either, because she couldn't breath. We did end up putting her down. Is it possible to have her vet checked?


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## prairie nights

Was the buckling nursing ok the first day and got enough colostrum? If he is not eating enough at this point, would he need to be tubed?


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## trueblessings

Good Morning All,

She was standing when I went out at 3am and at this am feeding. She is still eating very well, I milked another quart from one side this am. The kids seem to favor the same side for nursing. She did fine, no shaking. Her udder is largest it's every been, milking the quart is keeping her even. Tried to offer warm water this morning and she would not take it, she does have water available in pen, so hope she just was not thirsty. 

Injury, I would not think so as Riley is so mean with other goats, I keep her in a separate area. All my pregnant doe have there own pen, with outdoor areas, so I don't have to worry about losing doe are kids to injury. Her breeder raised her in their home while she was little and she is spoiled rotten. In fact she prefers to be alone. I can put her in front pen/pasture area where she can not see other goats and she is so content. Unusal I Know.
She is chewing cud, and rumen can be heard across the pen. 

Vet was to come this morning, but canceled, He is sick. Alot of sickness around our area right now. 

Holly my doe that was due Monday 1/4 has not gone yet either. There does not seem to be any problems with her, but after this with Riley, you bet I'm spending more time in the barn oberserving then in my house, and it's a wreck now. 

I got Buckling #1 up at 3am for nursing and this morning again for nursing. This time he stood longer and is moving around better. But I will continue the BoSe injections for another day or two. Also noticed he may have aspirated. Sounds like some fluid when he breaths. He is trying to clear it by coughing some. Will this pass, or should I do something? 

I guess this is my learning year sure enough, with so much happening I have not dealt with before. 

Thank you all so much for your help and continued support. 

Lynn


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## prairie nights

Lynn, just posting for support, hope this all turns out well. I've been following your post just like many here I am sure and wanted to say that this is how we all gain valuable experience. I am so thankful for this forum and to know that at this day and age folks are willing to offer free advice and share knowledge to help a fellow goat person, it just warms my heart.


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## KJFarm

Lynn, have you taken this does temperature?? If she's running a temp. then she has infection (pneumonia and/or mastitis, etc.) going on. If the temp. is low, and her extremities are cold, then she still needs calcium. You need to be taking her temperature at least twice a day until she's 100% normal.


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## trueblessings

*Re: Doe will not lay down!!! Update*

Gave another dose of MFO at 7:30pm, temp was 100.5. I noticed when she went to pee, she acted stiff in the legs and squating to pee seemed difficult for her, so this probably reason she is not laying down. Maybe I'm just impatient, but she just not improving fast enough for me. Will continue with MFO.

Buckling #1 is doing great.

Lynn


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## NubianSoaps.com

She is not improving because oral calcium like MFO and CMPK oral don't work in bad cases, if her temp drops more her rumen will stop functioning and she will die. Sorry but without subq calcium or IV by a vet with subq for her aftercare she simply isn't going to have time to respond with the kids nursing and you milking away her calcium reserves. Sorry if this is harsh, but on other forums we read and watch folks animals die, even after we have given them or they have been given sound advice to take. For oral to work it would simply have to be a very mild case, she was in hypocalcemia before and now milk fever (low temp, rear legs).

If she is not absorbing oral calcium from her alfalfa and minerals, than why would we think adding a calcium drench to her would be absorbed any better? She has an underlying deficiency or a major mineral imbalance (too much iron here) so she can't absorb much of the calcium you give her no matter how much you do. Why she needs that milk in her udder or subq or IV, it goes into her bloodstream the way oral calcium can't. If she pulls more calcium from her bones it will ruin her. Vicki


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## trueblessings

No change today, she is still standing. Still eating very good, but temp still to low. 

Kept calling vets all around me and found another one, new to the area, found him by chance, seems very knowledgeable about caprine. Told him my problems, He said, Come get it, she needs calcium now. 
Matt is on his way to get it

Holly, who was due Monday, still has not delivered either. I'm beginning to fear the same with her to, although her temp was normal yesterday. Acting normal, eating fine. And again I am sure of due date. 

Buckling #1 still improving.
And Riley has had her post kidding worming. 
Lynn


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## stoneyheightsfarm

Glad you found a vet and meds. Hope she pulls through for you!!!


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## trueblessings

I have 44cc of Norcal, all this vet would give me. He said to dose at 11 cc today, and another tomorrow. 

Does this sound right. I tried to find this on web and all it said was Cal/Dex CMPK

Should I do as vet said, and also continue MFO solution at same time?

Lynn 

I'll stop milking, I was only trying to keep udder even, and prevent edema, kids will not nurse but one side.


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## KJFarm

I have a bottle of Norcalciphos: here's the analysis and the dosage on the bottle.

26% Calcium Borogluconate
6% Magnesium
.5% Phosperous
15% Dextrose

Dosage for Sheep & Goats: 50 - 125 ml. (cc) Repeat every 2 - 6 hours.


Cal-Dex CMPK: 500 ml. bottle contains:

10.8 gms Calcium
1.6 gms Magnesium
2.5 gms Phosperous
8.0 gms Potassium
75 gms Dextrose

There is a difference in the two, but I have used them both and they work. Maybe some of the math whizs will come on and tell you more.


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## trueblessings

Thank You Janie

It does not look like this stuff has much calcium in it. Her temp last night was 103, I checked several times because I was afraid she may be getting an infection.

This morning temp is down to 101.5, she is refusing alfalfa pellets and mineral, eats hay and some grain. Not eating like her self now, and is still standing . She is gonna go down because she's about to fall down. I've stood and watched her sleeping standing up and her front legs went out on her and she went to her knees, but quickly got up. She is going from side to side. Can we make her lay down, sometimes I think she is afraid to lie down. 
She can't go much longer.

But on the up side, my doe Holly who was due Monday, delivered two doeling this morning at 8:30am. All are doing fine, and Holly actually had an easier time delivering this year than last. One doeling looks like her mom and the other is kind of a blonde color. Both from my new buck Cold-Comfort Thomas. 

Thanks again to all
Lynn


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## Ashley

I think the dose is 30cc's. I'm not sure as I can't seem to find a good answer on the board. I've been looking because I wanted to put the info on the bottle. 

I would try helping her lay down if it were me. It can't be good for her to wear herself out like that.


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## hsmomof4

It's 30 cc of CMPK, but she's using something different. Janie listed the info from the bottle above for both, but for the CMPK, the info is in gm/bottle and the info for the Norcal is in percent. Hard to compare apples and oranges.


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## Ashley

I asked about the norcalciphos and Sondra did say 30cc.


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## Tricia

Lynn -- We had a doe last February sustain either a hip or upper leg injury in her fourth month of gestation. She would not lay down. We finally arranged haybales around her: one under her, behind her forelegs, one in front of her forelegs (that in turn was butted up against a wall), one behind her rear legs (also braced), and a couple to her right side (it was her left rear leg that sustainded the injury). And loose hay to pillow her neck and head. She was so relieved to get off her legs: she'd been standing for at least five days. We induced her early, she also ran into calcium problems, which we resolved. We placed incontinence pads and straw behind her so she could pee in place and changed them out regularly. I massaged all her limbs (and back and neck and ears) daily, brought her water. She was on a course of banamine longer than I liked. She began to totter around on brief walks after her pregancy terminated and it was a good week after that before she returned to the kidding pen to nest in straw. Needless to say, she's a companion animal now.

If your doe won't lay down, see if you can prop her so she can get weight off her limbs while still "standing". Use soft hay bales where she'll bear weight. I made the mistake of putting a first cut bale under her inititally: she abraded the front of her udder on it and the fronts of her thighs on it.


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## trueblessings

She was given 22cc of the Norcal at 8am today, I just checked her temp again and it is 103.5. We have hay covered in an old blanket to protect her udder for her to lean on, but she is moving around the pen.
Matt and I worked with her until we got her to lay down and for just a few seconds her facial expression said "oh that feels good", then she changed and started grinding her teeth, so she got up. 

Could she have an infection going on also but its not being reflected in her temp because of milk fever. Should I treat with antibiotics.

Lynn


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## KJFarm

Lynn,
Can you give the following information:

What is the doe eating and how much is she eating?
Is she chewing her cud?
Is she drinking water and urinating normally?
Is poop normal?
Are you milking her at all?
Does the udder feel OK, not hard, hot, painful?
Have you listened to her lungs? Any raspy sounds? 
Lochia look and smell OK?

As I said earlier, when the body is low in calcium, the bones hurt - it is painful. If this were my doe, I think that I would start her on Naxcel and try some 1/2 doses of Banamine to knock some of the pain and she might want to lay down. It would also help with any inflamation in the lungs and/or udder.
JMHO


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## trueblessings

What is the doe eating and how much is she eating?
Coastal Bermuda hay, Alfalfa pellet, Purina Noble goat Dairy parlor 18%(1lb daily) prior to kidding, ate fine yesterday, today has only nibbled grains, refuses mineral, soda and pushes pellets to the side.

Is she chewing her cud? Yes

Is she drinking water and urinating normally? has water in pen 24/7, have offered warm water but was refused today, and I have not seen her drink from water in pen

Is poop normal? Yes

Are you milking her at all? Not any longer after reading Vicki's last post

Does the udder feel OK, not hard, hot, painful? Yes it's fine, soft and best udder she has ever had, I worked with the bucklings some more today and they are now nursing both sides. 

Have you listened to her lungs? Any raspy sounds? No , but sometimes her breathing seems labored 

Lochia look and smell OK? Yes, it was just large, just prior to passing she did pass a fluild bubble, that contained nothing but fluid.

She was copper bolused in October with much improvement.

I have been giving Banamine to try and help with the pain, but she still did not lay down. . Looks like husband and I will be taking shifts again. 

Thanks
LYnn


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## KJFarm

She may have some Acidosis going on. In that case I would not give any grain. Drench her with some baking soda, start Naxcel (1cc/50#) 2 X day first day, then l X day for 4 more days. Banamine in 1/2 doses 2 x day. Milk of Magnesia, Fortified B-Complex and Probios or Yogurt. Also CD Anitoxin.


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## stacy adams

Has she had her kids yet? How is she?


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## prairie nights

STacy, she kidded Jan 5th with 2 buckings but still won't lie down. Hope the IV Calcium helped?


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## stacy adams

It just worries me so.. about the lying down.. too many bad memories. Im praying she's gotten better!


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## trueblessings

Sorry everyone that I'm so late giving an update on Riley. She is acting her normal self, temp is normal and she is eating better and Still Will Not Lay Down on her on. I have taken to making her do so, because she needed the rest and she is able to get up on her on. She hits them feet pretty speedily when I walk in with feed bowl. Why she will no on her own still puzzles me. 

Another concern I have for her is that she freshened with this lovely udder that seems to be drying up before my eyes. I'm beginning to think she may not be producing enough milk for her bucklings. 

Lynn


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## trueblessings

*Re: Doe will not lay down!!! (update)*

dance: dance: dance:

*She is laying down on her on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seems to be doing very well, the bucklings also.

Thank You Everyone

LYnn *


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## Ashley

That's awesome! I have so been wondering about this doe!


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## Tricia

Lynn -- What a relief that must be to Riley and to you! Hope she continues to do well.


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## stacy adams

Oh HAPPY DAY!! I bet you ARE doing the happy dance.. will be praying for her continued improvement!


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## buckrun

Whew!


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## KJFarm

Sooooooo glad to hear this news, Lynn!!!!!!


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## stoneyheightsfarm

dance: dance: dance:
:handclap :handclap :handclap 
:woohoo :woohoo :woohoo 
:whew :whew :whew


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## hsmomof4

What a relief!


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