# Marshmallow method copper supplement with x-rays.



## mrs.h (Feb 1, 2010)

Tests have been done with the marshmallow method - results including x-rays can be seen here
http://www.goatspots.com/copper.html

I found this on HT. Thought it might be interesting.

I of course am experimenting with the peanut butter ball method. I will not be having x-rays done.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

I find bolusing to be so easy, I guess I just don't see the point in trying marshmallows and peanut butter with it in it..


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

That is very interesting. I have always been curious about the x-ray portion
of these studies, so actually seeing them is good. Thanks for posting that link.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

The marshmallow method looks pretty good. 

I do feel that mixing rods in food is better than nothing.

Deleted post, want to do more research.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> Hopefully the capsule sinking to the bottom, by the sheer weight, will dissolve against the rumen villi and have a chance to attach there before being churned up into the stomach contents.


I think you have the right idea about why the capsule is preferable.
A better chance of it dropping out of what will be brought up as cud. 
Pav has much good info on this.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I've done the capsules long enough it's now easier for me than messing with a sticky marshmallow ever would be.


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## Dacaree (Jan 31, 2009)

Personally I bolus. It takes all of 5 seconds to put them in the bolus stick/gun thingy and get it down them. I put the goats in the stanchion and poof, its done. I do try to bolus before I feed, just my brain's way of thinking less in the stomach so the copper can get imbedded before I feel the rumen with grain.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No way with the xray showing rods in the marshmellow it isn't being brought up to cud, if anyone took my challenge and put a rod in their mouth to chew, it likely will not only break some molars on you does, or be ground into tiny bits, which will then all be dissolved at the same time, ruining the whole time released idea.

Honestly the wrestling to put a marshmellow into the mouth is more than bolusing. It's simply a technique to be learned, it isn't rocket science stuff! And the cattle guys are laughing their rumps off at us lil dairy goat gals and our marshemllows  LOL! And vets....actually thinking we are so inept we can't bolus? Please! I know LeeAnn's daughters are pulling blood and bolusing! Vicki


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## mrs.h (Feb 1, 2010)

:sigh I don't care what cattle people think.


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## tmfinley (Feb 21, 2008)

I'll admit it, I am actually so inept I cannot bolus. :sniffle I keep trying though. I will usually get at least 1 of the 2 capsules down. Usually. 

Tiffany


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## Fiberaddict (Jun 4, 2009)

Um.......I can't use a bolus gun. I've had 5 CT surgeries on my left wrist/hand, so it's basically not good for much.

What I do, though....is I wrap the capsule in a marshmallow. The girls snarf it down (no, they don't bother to swallow :grin) with no problems, and come looking for more. I figure, the marshmallow gets it down them, but - since I don't "glue" the capsule in, I just wrap it - the capsule will separate from the 'mallow, and we're good.

I do realize it's probably not ideal, but at least they're getting *some* copper, right?


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## mrs.h (Feb 1, 2010)

tmfinley said:


> I'll admit it, I am actually so inept I cannot bolus. :sniffle I keep trying though. I will usually get at least 1 of the 2 capsules down. Usually.
> 
> Tiffany


Mean while you can come here where folks will try an make you feel like and inept idiot for not doing it their way.

Never mind that 10-15 years ago that's the way they learned because the vets knew even less about goat health than they do now. I guess we have the next generation of experts that say if you aren't doing it my way you should just get out.

In 10-15 years that will be me I guess. "And the beat goes on."


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

mrs.h said:


> tmfinley said:
> 
> 
> > I'll admit it, I am actually so inept I cannot bolus. :sniffle I keep trying though. I will usually get at least 1 of the 2 capsules down. Usually.
> ...


Sorry you feel that way . I can only speak for myself, but I think here it's more a case that there's a proven method that has had extensive research behind it and is known to work, and more experienced owners want to encourage proven best practices. From the earliest field trials that led to the Australian patent on copper oxide rod-filled capsules, to the more recent work that Joyce has done, everyone has used a gelatin capsule. There's simply not enough data to say if anything else works or doesn't work. And I personally don't want to encourage a practice not driven by research. There's been enough of that over the years.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

tmfinley said:


> I'll admit it, I am actually so inept I cannot bolus. :sniffle I keep trying though. I will usually get at least 1 of the 2 capsules down. Usually.
> 
> Tiffany


Oh I was "inept" for a long time. You just have ot keep at it and finally you get it. I probably still have 2 out of 10 chewed. Certain goats are worse than others.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Wow Samantha. That is some heavy stuff! Once again another case of projecting how you feel into what was written. No one says get out! And no one has said inept or idiot on here. Encouraging people to bolus by saying it is so easy so why make it hard does not mean anyone thinks anyone is stupid. 

All the info shared this way is to help people succeed with goats! 
I wish we had had so many options to sort through when we started with goats.
Certainly no one has said don't use your own brain to decide what is best for your situation.

Verna- can you ask around for someone to help you bolus? Maybe 4H from the local school or an agri student? Then you could teach as well as have help.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

I second getting some help with bolusing. I recruited a friend for our first attempt and we did both my herd and hers with some wrestling. Then a fellow breeder got on board about copper boluses and was able to do it by herself with assistence from 7 year old daughter so her "technique" is definitely better than ours was and we will be adopting it ! Both result in the capsule going unchewed down the throat
but one obviously easier than the other. 

Samantha, I always keep in mind that folks who come here to post take their time away from their family and work. They could be enjoying their grandkids, soaping, having coffee with hubby instead there are hours spent here (not to mention the phone) helping newbies like myself. There is no pay or compensation so I do give them the benefit of doubt that the reason behind the posting is ALWAYS trying to help and educate, otherwise what's the point? 

Jana


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

Well i have only been in goats for four years and this spring was the first time I ever bolused so there is no 10 to 15 years of anything behind my remark. If you have ever put a pill down a cat or a dog then a little practice can get one down a goat. If you are like Verna and can't use a bolus gun because of a hand problem, then you might try alternative methods if you don't have anyone that can help you. But otherwise, having done it for the first time this spring and pretty darned sure that none were chewed, the idea of trying to squish the right amount of rods into marshmallows or peanut butter and then trying to get the sticky mess down their throat sounds way harder than slipping the pill into the little plastic balling gun (balling stick would be a better description of this device) and having someone hold the goats head while you pry the mouth open, slip in balling stick and push the thingy (yes thingy) in and viola, copper bolus down the hatch. I am sure with some practice, I could get it down them without help if they were locked in the milkstand. And I am sure that even with help, in the future, I will have dropped and chewed boluses. Like anything, it takes time to get it right so that I get it done perfectly every time. I guess I just feel that if I am going to go to the effort to learn all of this stuff and do it,then I should do it the way its recommended (unless of course you plan on doing an involved and documented study with your own goats) just like I use the Cydectin pour on orally, or feed alfalfa,or give Corrid at the recommended doses, I am going to use copper the way it is recommended. 

I guess what I am saying is that if you come here because you want the advice from these experienced goat people (the reason I am here) then why do you get upset when they tell you that trying to circumvent their recommendations to make it easier on yourself when there is no evidence the easier way works (unless you have no choice like Verna) is not the best way? Are you going to only give three days worth of Corrid because its easier than messing with it for the recommended five? Probably not. So why would you try to cut corners with this?

I don't think anyone is saying anyone is inept or stupid. Please don't take it that way.


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

The first time we bolused was hard and dad came away with bloody hands! We had 70 head to do and we had these little tiny capsules that would not fit in the gun. Each goat needed anywhere from 1-3 boluses...and sometimes more!
The next time I ordered the big gelatin capsules from Valley Vet..and the gun they fit *perfectly* into. I fill the capsules and each goat gets one capsule (except for a small handful that need two). One capsule is so much easier than two or three. The gun is made for the capsules so no spending time on ProBios paste, peanut butter, etc. The next time we bolused I used these capsules. There are a few goats where it will take one or two tries...Never more than three tries. We are talking maybe 5 or so out of 70+. I can bolus a good 35+ goats in one day by myself. I have to catch, straddle and bolus. With help I can do more. The only exception has been my 9 year old Nubian wether and the Boer/Saanen we had. They require two people just because they are so tall.
The right tools for the job make it a great deal easier.
I've used those same gelatin capsules on MiniNubians as well with no issues.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh my gosh Samantha get real We don't try to put anyone down, don't read into something that isn't there. 

I have to admit that for me bolusing is a chore for me and I usually have one or two goats I have to redo but I do get it done because I personally believe that is the only way to get accurate time release on the copper


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## mrs.h (Feb 1, 2010)

Hi guys,

I want to publicly apologize for being so rude and harsh. I clearly was mistaken on what I thought I read. I don't know what got into me but it is out now. I am so sorry. Please forgive my ranting.

I come here to learn and share and will continue to do so. I love this board.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Samantha, we all have our days  Glad you are in better spirits. 

Jana


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

For those of us who have trouble wrestling big goat heads to get the gun in the right place, and for those of us who have hand issues, and for those who are still on the learning curve of all this goat stuff,.......

I *finally* found the info I'd been looking for:

May 2, 2010

This is edited from a goat discussion list (Goats list <[email protected]>) to which I subscribe:

Email discussion with Dr. James Miller of LSU who is a lead researcher of
the use of COWPs to control the barberpole worm. Below is the portion of
his response that pertains to the issue set up in a question answer format:

To Dr. Miller:

Question 1: Is it true that top-coating feed with copper wire particles is
an effective method of deliver for the copper for management of H.
contortus?

Response from Dr. Miller: Yes, but it is better for them to be mixed in
with the feed and add a small amount of liquid (water, oil, molasses) to
make sure the particles stick and do not fall out.

Question 2. If so, does the copper wire, when delivered without a bolus as
a carrier, stay within the stomach of the animal for the same length of
time as copper wire delivered via a bolus?

Response from Dr. Miller: The bolus we refer to is not really a bolus but
a gel capsule containing the copper particles. The gel capsule dissolves
and releases the particles so it makes no difference if the particles are
delivered by gel capsule or in the feed.

Question 3. Is the period of effectiveness the same?

Response from Dr. Miller: Yes.

* * *
Also, I got this response to an email to WSU to get their response to the alternate administration issue.

"The long established way to give the copper oxide is via a gelatin capsule; however, if the alternative methods described confidently get the copper oxide into the rumen and reticulum then those would or could be acceptable methods."

Steven M. Parish DVM

* * * * * * 
Me, again:
Obviously, the extensive research is on boluses, but if you can't bolus *yet*, then an alternate method is certainly better than no method at all.

Make a friend with a more experienced goat person, if possible, but while you are looking..... the vets at LSU and WSU don't mind if you grab a marshmallow. dance:


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> But we love people with opinions! That way we can try and talk them out of them!


 :rofl


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Lee, That will be on my tombstone (if I believed in such a thing  Vicki


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## Fiberaddict (Jun 4, 2009)

Lee, I wish I had some real help! The goats were the husband's idea (well, HE thinks so :wink), but he's not into the nitty-gritty of the care. If it were up to him, we'd toss feed, milk, and gripe about the lack of production. He flinches when I pull out the shots!

My kids are a little better - Cait is an Aspie, though, and has problems with the goats (chickens are fine, but - for some reason - 4-legged creatures bother her); Ian is 10 and wants to help but isn't quite big enough for full-size goats.

The 4-H groups.........are problematical. They are meat-goat only, aren't interested in anything not in the 4-H book (harsh, but that's my experience with them) and......:sigh Plus, since they are Boer-only, I'd rather they NOT have contact with my CAE/CL free herd, know what I mean? (At the county fair, I asked a few exhibitors about the status of their goats, and got totally blank looks. One girl even asked me what the big deal was - they were gonna be slaughtered anyway. :bangs head

So, for me, it'll be capsules in a marshmallow. Until Ian gets big enough to bolus them for me. :grin


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I worked for a vet, and had to give meds to very upset animals. I learned how to quickly shove a pill down a cats throat, so I transferred that to a goat, cow and horse. They didn't make small baling guns back then, so......

I admit, with my arthritis and neuropathy, I have some major manual dexterity issues going on now, so giving a goat their capsules is a challange. If I knew for sure that marshmallows would work as well as a capsule, I would do it. Mine already love strawberry marshmallows. But, until I know for sure, I'll suffer with the baling gun. I can't afford to waste the boluses.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

dragonlair said:


> I worked for a vet... If I knew for sure that marshmallows would work as well as a capsule, I would do it...


I'm trying to figure out how to make sure this comes across as friendly question since we can't hear tone here, and its really to everyone anyway, what do you find convincing or not about the quotes from the LSU & WSU vets?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't because neither of them have goats  One xray, one goat done and hundreds done on saanendoah.com And once again to me it's a little like not wanting to learn to trim feet and taking them to the local nail salon...I won't even give bolousing the weight as to say it's as easy as pulling blood or fecal sampling, at least these take some learned skill, it's as easy as worming. I refuse to play and let new people think for one minute it is a technique they can't learn because it is not. Fecal sampling, pulling blood, disbudding, trimming feet, dairy clips, tubing, vaccinations are all simple techniques to learn that help you with all your animals, not just you goats, and it saves you money in the long run. Women are so quick to say "I can't do it, help me" Now a real disability, sure, always figure out a way to work around it, but us? Just because we are girls? Shoot we should be able to do it better!

When Mrs. got upset it should not have been at us for making her feel inept, it should have been at those who are dumbing things down. We should empower each other...then sure if the marshmellows or peanut butter really works we can all teach our husbands to do it for us!  :rofl Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I mostly agree with that Vicki, I especially agree we should be encouraging each other to learn and those basic skills are pretty easy for most folks.

I also have an injured hand and like someone else posted, its a little painful to do some stuff, or if they suddenly decide to move the wrong way and I have to really grab on, so if there's a viable option and I can save icing my hand afterwards, that would be great.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2010)

I am of like mind like Vicki, and I always had such a hard time with boluses until this year for some reason.. this year I finally got it right.. and got them down swallowed the first time.. 
I thought about the marshmellow method, but wanted the proven method for my goats.. and not to waste the copper.. 
Barb


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## tmfinley (Feb 21, 2008)

I just wanted to say I didn't mean anything by my comment other than I do have issues with bolussing but I am not giving up. I do have a mentor and she came out here and BAM got the bolus down no problem. I did it fine when she was here also. When it was my turn to do it alone though, I didn't do so hot. I think I was rushing it and not getting it over the bump in the back of the tongue before I started to try and shove it down their throats. I will try to be more zen about it next time. 

Tiffany


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep just visualize it, tilt the head up slightly that helps.

And know that if you took them to my vet, this little petite horse woman she would get out this 2 foot long black bolusing stick and ram it down thier throats! Nothing zen about Merry at all  Vicki


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

About my statement about the marshmallows and the article-I hadn't read the article yet. 

I just want to make sure all the stuff gets down their throat. Its too easy for an animal to "cheek" their meds! At least with a "plunger" you know its past their cheeks!


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## HeritageFarm (May 4, 2010)

Oat Bucket Nubians said:


> I find bolusing to be so easy, I guess I just don't see the point in trying marshmallows and peanut butter with it in it..


I agree. With small ones, (for any bolus), you just shove it on down with your fingers.


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## Hollybrook (Jul 17, 2009)

Ive done alot of things in my life like insertion of NG-tube's, Foley cath's, IV's, packing gun shot wounds Ive even picked pebbles out of some lady's brain in the ER but Bolusing my goats ranks as one of my least desirable packing a marshmellow seems just as easy as filling a tiny gel cap I'm gonna give it try next time. Thanks fur the tip!!!

Dave


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