# Please help Danielle's wether



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Hello, I found your email on the goat threads forum (homesteading today). I registered but haven't had confirmation yet.

My goat is sick and when I called the vet office they said the vet would be out of the office until Monday. There are no other veterinarians in my area who will see goats  

We live in Minnesota - have 4 feet of snow on the ground and the average temp here has been 10 degrees lately (the goats have an insulated goat barn and a house full of straw and plenty of water/minerals/baking soda to eat and drink at will).

Temperature? rectal 103.4

Symptoms? Standing, won't eat, staying inside goat barn even though the others are outside, he had build up around his penis which I scraped off and then washed, I also found a hard buildup around his chest (in between his front legs), which was white and I could scrape off. He looked like it itched him when I did this and it appeared like he wanted me to keep scratching at it. When I scraped some off it was white, took off some fur, and the rest was kind of white/powdery (but I don't know if this is related to his lethargy). His fur looks good and normal. His eyes look normal. He doesn't appear to be in distress but there is obviously something wrong since he is not eating and not with the others.

When was the last time you wormed? fall
Wormed with what and how much? 
Is she pregnant? He is a wether
What age? 4.5
Breed? Nigerian Dwarf
Do you vaccinate? Not this year
What do her lungs sound like when she is breathing? normal
If a buck is he peeing normally or straining? He's castrated, and haven't seen him pee nor struggle to pee
Have they had a change of grain? No
How long have you owned this goat? 4 years

He does not appear to have bloat (when looking at him his right side is bigger than his left). He is not pawing the ground or acting restless. He is pretty much just standing there.

First noticed symptoms last evening.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I can see he has access to all he needs, but is he actually drinking? That's something to watch. He's not running a fever, so that suggests no pneumonia or infection, maybe just an upset stomach? Normally when I can't figure out what's going on and the animal is really sick I give a shot of Banamine, but it looks like you have a bit of time here (IF he's drinking!). I guess I would try if he'll lick some baking soda out of your hand. Bring a nice flake of hay and a bucket of warm water to him and see if he kicks back. Let us know if he's getting better or worse and describe more symptoms. I don't think the crusty stuff is reason for panic and it may not have anything to do with his being off feed.
Marion


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## dwagner1 (Feb 7, 2013)

I have not seen him drink since yesterday but everything that I've read about urinary calculi says not to force water so I haven't. I'm afriad that might be what is wrong with him... I have not seen him urinate nor have I seen him straining to urinate. He was shivering so we put a heat lamp in the goat barn which he is now standing under. I am most concerned about the buildup of hard, crusty (blackish) stuff covering his penis (does that indicate urinary calculi?) and of course his general behavior. We have given him nutridrench, apple cider vinegar, and probios. He also has access to baking soda, minerals, and kelp. Thank you for any help you can provide!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Their chests get a "pad" of skin, like a callus type thing, I'm guessing from laying on it, maybe it is jsut that, getting kind of flaky.

The crust on his penis (is it on the penis itself, or just the sheath?), sounds like maybe pizzle rot. What is his diet?


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## Twillingate Farm (Oct 26, 2007)

Danielle, I personally have not experienced this issue but found the following potential help at http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/urinarycalculi06.html if you conclude the problem truly is Urinary Calculi.



> Vets recommend that ammonium chloride be used to treat Urinary Calculi. Ammonium chloride can be purchased in small quantities (four-pound packages) from Pipestone Vet Supply at 1-800-658-2523. Here are the dosing instructions provided to me by a producer who has been successful in using Ammonium chloride to cure Urinary Calculi. Mix the following in 20 cc water and orally drench: One (1) teaspoon Ammonium chloride per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for 2 days, then 1/2 tsp AC per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for the next 3 days, then 1/2 tsp once a day for 3 days, then 1/4 tsp daily as a preventative. Dosages are based upon 75 lb liveweights. Ammonium chloride burns the throat, so stomach tube it into the goat.
> 
> Some producers have had good luck using a product called Acid Pack available through Register Distributing: goatsupplies.netfirms.com or 1-888-310-9606. This writer has no experience with either Urinary Calculi or with Acid Pack. Regardless of the treatment used, the goat must be taken off all grain concentrates and offered only grass hay, fresh green leaves, and water during this treatment regimen. This is not usually a problem since the goat is so sick that it is struggling to live and isn't interested in eating or drinking. Producers without these products on hand might consider trying -- in the short term until they are obtained -- "Fruit Fresh" from the canning aisle in the grocery store. Again this writer has no personal experience with this product but hears from time to time of producer-reported success using it. Immediate veterinary assistance is highly recommended when Urinary Calculi is suspected.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Black crusty stuff on his penis could be dried blood. What is his normal diet? Does he get goat feed pellets or sweet feed or anything besides hay?


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## dwagner1 (Feb 7, 2013)

He gets grass hay and approx 1 cu sweet goat feed per day (he is about 65 lbs).


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Most feed stores (real feed mills) carry ammonium chloride so you could ask around if you are going to use that protocol. 

Reading through Goat Medicine on urinari calculi (it boggles the mind), fluids are important! Hydration! Hydration! Hydration! 

So sorry this is happening to you. Welcome to the forum. You're in the right place.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Grass hay and sweet feed combined is a recipe for UC for sure...even if that is not his current problem, it could become a problem down the road if he keeps getting fed those things. There is too much phosphorus in proportion to the calcium. How about instead of the sweet feed, giving some alfalfa pellets? It will help with the Ca balance, as well as it will be a little lower in calories (which a wether shouldn't need unless he is a hard-working cart goat or something). Doesn't help solve the current problem if he does have UC, but it will help prevent it in the future at least.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

dwagner1 said:


> He gets grass hay and approx 1 cu sweet goat feed per day (he is about 65 lbs).


Sounds like too much phosphurus which can lead to urinary calculi. If he is a wether, why does he get grain? Especially a ND wether that is 4 1/2 years old? I'm not criticizing, just asking. First, it sounds like you need to address the immediate problem, then, change the diet. You need some alfalfa to balance that high phos hay and grain diet he's been on.

I would really watch and see if he pees and what he looks like when/if he does. And also check out those parts and feel for little stone-type things, but I'll be honest, I've never had to do that and have only read about it.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Super important to watch our males pee each day. I agree with his diet, I would get some alfalfa pellets, Tractor Supply carries them, and just give him a scoop to eat, cut down the amount of sweet feed you are feeding. Alfalfa is high in calcium, where as grains/sweet feed and grass hay is high in phosphorus. Phosphorus will cause stones in your males, wethered or not. So by adding calcium he should do better. Vicki


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## dwagner1 (Feb 7, 2013)

Yes, we will definitely be changing a lot of things if he pulls through this. We were giving grain as a treat to go back into the goat barn at night. During the day our 4 goats free range in the yard with our dogs and/or go into pasture with the horses - or hang out with us in the yard or garage. So we thought we were doing something nice by offering grain as a reward for going "home" in the evening. The suggestion of alfalfa pellets is great. I will call the feed mill 1.5 hrs away tomorrow to see if they carry ammonium chloride - we searched everywhere in our town this afternoon to no avail. I ordered some but it won't get here for awhile. Some people I've emailed with suggested he could have parasites so I also wormed him tonight with Ivermectin Paste (for horses).


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

The mineral I provide free choice has Ammonium Chloride in it. That may be something for you to use. I have no experience with calculi, so can't help with that issue. And ops, I do spend quite a bit of time walking through the herd and staring at 'em, but I do not see every buck pee every day. 
Marion


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

If he doesn't like alfalfa pellets, you could try beet pulp shreds. It's higher energy than he needs still, but at least it has a better calcium/phosphorus ratio...and my goats think it is a treat.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

My buck is going on 5 years and his wether son, 3 years. I feed only grass hay to them, a good quality hay so I don't have to supplement some calf manna. As outlined by Sue Reith in her urinary calculi article. I have good water which I think helps. I have never fed Ammonium Chloride and so far no problems. I do watch their stream and have AC and Methionine on the ready.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

He may not like the alfalfa pellets at first since he is used to the sweet feed, but don't give up if he turns his nose up at first. He will learn to love them if he doesn't right away and it will be an excellent treat for getting them back into the barn at night. He will be healthier for it. I hope he recovers for you.


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## dwagner1 (Feb 7, 2013)

I called the emergency line at the U of MN very early this morning and my husband is driving our goat down there. The doctor said that they have an 80% success rate w/ surgery for UC if it's not too late already. The drive is 4 hours from us... Thank you all for your replies. We really appreciate the concern from this goat community. Please say a little prayer or think warm thoughts of our Temperance as he will probably undergo surgery around 11 am (Central Time) today.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Hope he pulls out ok. Let us know how he does.


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## creekmom (Aug 6, 2010)

Been following the thread and really hoping the best for you guys today.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Good luck, Temperance!


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## todog (Dec 10, 2011)

prayers for temperance and his owners.


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## dwagner1 (Feb 7, 2013)

Update from the U of M vet service. Temperance has peed twice since being there. They did an ultrasound and the abnormal thing they saw is that there is fluid in his abdomen. They are now going to try to get a sample of the fluid to see if it's urine or ? ... We are waiting to get answers.


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## dwagner1 (Feb 7, 2013)

The fluid appears to be infection. They are culturing it so in 2-3 days we will know more with that. It could be infection from any number of things, or it could be cancer. They are treating with antibiotics, antiinflamatories, pain meds and he's on an IV since he is dehydrated. They plan to keep him there for around 3 days, depending on how he is doing. They are 95% sure it was nothing to do with UC or anything like that now. Thanks everyone for your concern & help & well wishes. As you can probably tell, this goat means a lot to us. He is more like a dog than a barnyard animal and is really part of the family... And like I said earlier, we will be making a ton of changes with his diet if he pulls through and comes home. And we'll be spreading the word to other wether owners!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Glad he's getting help.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

You did the right thing by bringing him there so they can help you figure out what's going on. I hope he'll get better and you get to take him home again. Go Temperance!!!
Marion


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

Praying that money tree sprouts some $20s for you! I'm glad he is doing good


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