# Choosing a Buck Kid



## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I would like to have a discussion about choosing a jr herd sire or sire replacement from kids.
So you have been looking at dam and sire and milk records and LA Scores and decide on a breeding you think would work with your lines. 

I want to know what you look for when you SEE and feel the actual buck kid himself in person. 
And I want to know what your experience shows you about the influence of his parental heritage over the what you see is what you get from the animal in front of you. 

Will you buy a buck kid very young based on scores and show wins or wait for it to mature some before deciding? 
Will you buy him if he physically appears to be less than his parents SHOULD produce just to get the genetics and hope that his visual package is not set in stone in his contribution to your herd?

Lots of folks are shopping the new kid crops coming up to purchase bucks.
We talk about does a lot so can we talk about how you choose your next buck from a kid crop?

Say you were not able to research like we can on internet and did not have records to go by for potential and you are standing in the pen with a group of kids at your feet what do you look for?
Thanks!
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I want him to be structurally sound, able to be ADGA registered with no faults. 100% I buy bucks on pedigree, as was seen with the buck I just purchased. OK, when Katie put up the photo of that spotted thing right next to where the pedigrees of Portia's bucklings for sale were listed, I did freak out  But yes I still would have taken him. Thankfully it wasn't him. But I don't care if he had purple polka dots, I bought him on his strength of pedigree. It's why good bucks with not just strength of pedigree but with his progeny on the ground, sell for so much and why the $300 buck who is 3 years old, needs some pretty good marketing to get me to look at him  It's gravy for me if a buck goes on to get a good appraisal score or shows well (I don't show bucks), and when you see a breeder go back to the well over and over it shows how much success for them they have had with the bloodline.

I have been super happy with site unseen bucklings and in one instance he was pulled out of the trailer by the hauler, a curt conversation on the phone with the hauler in ear shot, photos saved the buck butchered and paperwork was sent back, and my money given back...another buck who didn't outgrow a fault we thought he would and was butchered. Come to think of it I have never purchased a buck because he was just so beautiful I had to have him  And really Meho my yearling LaMancha buck who is long dead and GE are my only bucks who are/were beautiful  To me it's a little like bragging that you semen tank is shinier than someone elses


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## R and R Farms (Jul 7, 2008)

I can't speak directly to the selection of individuals on the basis of the individual himself versus the pedigree but it brings to mind something Onstott wrote on dog breeding. He said "to disregard or dispense with the pedigree is like sailing the open sea without a chart. To consider pedigrees to the exclusion of individuals is to be so concerned with navigation as to forget our destination, which is the harbor of perfect dogs."


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

I would agree with Vicky. When I buy a buck, I want him to be structurally sound, and registrable (no SERIOUS, or obvious faults) and obviously the more correct the better. But am more concerned with strength of pedigree and Dam's and Sire's Dams udders, and production. If he never appraises over 82, or never sees a show ring in his life, or the neighbor thinks he is ugly, I DONT CARE as long as his genetics are doing what I want them too. My current buck is a little on the small side, toes out slightly, and has the typical steep buck rump. But to see his Dam, and his kids I could not be happier!! So that said, a lot of buck purchases happen sight unseen. 
If I was to put my hands on them to choose between, say siblings or a really close breeding with the bloodlines I want. I would look them over just like I would 2 doe kids. You are looking for the same things. Starting at the head, nice big, wide muzzle with open nostrils. Wide between the eyes with correct facial structure (roman nose on a nubi etc) and ear set/length. Nice long dairy neck that attaches well to the shoulder. Strait legs, width of body when you put your hand between the front legs. Nice length of body and a wide rump. Well sprung ribs with flat dairy bone and correct angle (pointing towards the rump). BOTH TESTICLES is a MUST!! That is the one that that I will say ALWAYS ALWAYS have, regardless of pedigree or what have you!!!!! So first I buy for parentage, then if I am doing a hands on choice between similar breedings, I will then look at type just like on a doeling. But just because a buck is "purdy" dont mean is is going to make the babies you want.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

purdy, no- but phenotype IS half of genotype. If they have bad legs, or are real short- unless you know its something caused by early life= then they are going to be carrying those genes. And the trick is to figure out whats recessive and whats dominant to tell if they might have the great recessive genes that aren't showing- but you know if the phenotype that is showing is dominant then half you kids minimum are going to be displaying it. If its recessive to the trait the doe is displaying you might get lucky in the first kid crop-but all his kids will carry it and it may take years to reliably breed it out of that line. 

Closest Ive found on what traits are recessive or dominant is the heritability percentages charts I think they are in 101. I'm way too new at this to be any kind of an expert, but I would have concerns using a buck that did not show the traits I want in my kids.

An example- my senior buck is nice and wide chested. I have doelings i kept from 4 different does- the wider does have wider babies, the more narrow ones- their daughters are definitely more narrow than the others (none bad, I just see the difference) So my best guess is that the body type i am breeding for -the nice wide chest- may be somewhat recessive to the more narrow.(a very early hypothesis on my part so far, not a known fact by any means!)

I need to make sure I breed these girls to a wide buck, so I don't reinforce what I don't want. A wider buck may be homozygous for width and more likely to give me the body type i want, at least in 3/4 of his offspring. If I keep only the wide ones and buy only wide bucks, in the next couple of generations I should "set" that trait in my herd. 

But if I just look at his parents and they are both wide- and he isn't- I still wouldn't want him. Because he may have 2 recessive genes for narrowness and all his kids will be more carrying the more narrow genes...meaning it will be much harder to breed it out of my kid crops in the future. 

Hope that makes sense. I think that phenotype is as important as genotype, since it is genotype.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

But width has to be carried throughout the body...width in the mussle usually follows chest, loin, rump and a wider more level rump gives you more area of attachment of a good strong udder. So it's not just a buck with width between his front legs you are looking for.

I would assume that if a buck or dog is registered that he conforms to breed standard...yeah I know in both catagories that's a laugh! But I also know who I am buying from...and oddly I am exactly the opposite in dogs, I do look at the pedigree, but it is nowhere as important as the dam the sire and the look of the pup is super important.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I purchase bucks based on their pedigrees and also if I like their relatives. Two of the bucks I've had were out of a spotlight sale doe my friend had. I was really excited about the second buck because his sire's bloodlines were from the same herd as his dam. I was disappointed in his daughters. Most did not have as nice of udders as I expected. One has a lovely udder and I retained her, but sold the buck and the other does. My newest purchased buck, Raphael I got locally from a Nubian breeder who does appraisal. I always liked his champion granddam as well as his dam. Both does scored 90VEEE. I have a yearling doe out of his sire and she's a really nice doe. I really like the looks of Raphael's kids and we'll get to see udders in a few months. I have two bucks who are homebred. Shadow is out of Colette, who has two milking legs and always stands in the money placings at shows. His sire is out of a really angular doe that I love. Voodoo is out of Foxy, a spotted doe who has a deep body and nice mammary. His half sister, Ruby has a nice mammary as well. His sire is Raphael. I chose to retain him after speaking with a well known Nubian breeder. She told me that when they buy an outside buck, they keep a buckling out of one of their nicest does to linebreed. She also told me that my herd continues to improve, so I must be doing something right.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks Laura. I was hoping to hear from someone who did more than shop pedigrees because actually that activity is more likely in a more advanced goat breeder looking for improvement after gaining enough experience to know they need to upgrade. So many new goat owners (when they get ready for a buck) don't know names or how to find stats and IMO need to know how to look at the structure of a very young animal for potential as a sire. So that is why I wanted everyone to pretend they were in a pen with a group of kids and talk about what to look for.

A buck that has names and numbers behind him but does not look the part goes in the wether pen here. But people who are not willing to wether because their doe appraised over the top regardless of the appearance of the kid himself are IMO doing a disservice to buyers for those very reasons Laura so I thought it might help to have a discussion on what to look at when doing an in person inspection of a potential herd sire. Many people looking to improve their herd by putting their money into a good buck get stories like...this line matures late...he will grow out of it etc. I am sure that is true in some lines in some breeds but I have always coached that a buck kid you are buying for a sire should look like you want your kids to look when they hit the ground. Not go ahead and buy him in hopes of some miraculous turnaround as a yearling. 

And I must say...someone we all know and love stated very plainly there is junk out there under every name. Guess who :biggrin





Lee


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Guess who 


Sheesh, I don't know :biggrin


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

I am into quality and quantity milk ,great udders and beauty build as so far I dont show as our main herd is Boers. I bought a buck this year,sight unseen as I saw his big beautiful daddy buck and I already knew he came from a dairy line ,I was there to buy a beautiful spotted buckling and was checking his mama doe out before she was milked ,when in walked another doe that was fixing to be milked and wow ! what a udder she had, a gallon size,deep high and tight ,with good teat placement and on a Nubian,I was impressed,she was a looker,straight and big doe,very friendly and she had a buckling and I bought him and am very happy as he is friendly and sweet. I am eagerly awaiting for Feb kidding of my 2 LM and praying for does.


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

True to the point of new breeders not knowing how to purchase based on a written pedigree. I guess what I meant when I said I purchase based on "pedigree or bloodlines", I mean I am basing my purchase on the animals behind him, seeing the structures (body and udders) and production records of the animals back there. Not just strictly names on a paper.

I do want my bucks to be correct and not be showing any poor traits that could possibly be passed on. But the fact that the buck I purchased didnt grow as big as I would like (he was the runt out of quads) and now toes out just a little, which was not seen as a buckling, doesnt make me want to throw him away. I know his dam appraised at a 91EEEE and milks 2 gallons a day, with a SOLID udder, as an 8 year old!!!!! So that is why I keep taking it back to what you want genetically. It can go both ways. You can spend all year picking out the BEST built buck, just to find out the next spring, his kids come out looking like something you wouldnt want to keep, sell or show. Its also good to work through a pedigree and pick out a buck that you think would blend well with the genetics you already have. Sometimes an outcross does great things, and sometimes in doesnt. Since a buck covers your whole herd as apposed to just one doe giving you 2 kids you dont like (which you can then just breed her to a different buck next year!) you want to make sure that he is going to bring in the genes that you want.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If you buying a buck from somebody, certainly you trust the judgement of the person enough to ask about their does, what their buck is giving them etc. To walk into a pen full of bucklings my first thought would be (why aren't some of these presold  but secondly I would walk into the pen of their milkers first, then have them show me who has sons for sale 

If your going to buy on conformation only than length, width, flatness of bone is also going to be hard for a new person...why so many new Nubian breeders start with color! Spots. But in all seriousness, walking into a pen of bucklings and picking out the best kid is noway of improving anything at your farm.

And I don't know who would say something that crass


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I bought my buck (first and only purchased so far) on pedigree and advice. I knew which herd I admired and which doe in that herd made me drooooool. LOL So, I made a phone call and after a loooong discussion of the does I am working with, got a straight "*This* is the breeding that I would choose a herd sire out of." I love him and better yet, I love the kids he's given us so far.  And the fact that my advisor has his littermate brother proves that she was telling me like it is.  Thanks!


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I pick bucklings based on their mothers. Their dam has to be better in some way than anything I already have in my barn - otherwise, why bother 

Like Vicki, if I was faced with a pen of bucklings and had to pick one -- I'd ask to see the dams first!
No obvious faults - correct bite, two testicles, two teats. 

That's really it. I have had gorgeous 91 EEE bucks who never really reproduced themselves, and bucks who appraised in the low-mid 80's that have made mostly 90+ daughters ;-)


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Well this is all good reading for the too shy to post folks I sent to be lurking learners so thanks so much for all the contributions. Anyone that wants to add more tales of buck luck and glory or even the lost generation stories please do! 
Thanks
L


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## R and R Farms (Jul 7, 2008)

One thing to consider is that regardless of whether you select on phenotype or genotype, you are not going to get the best of both worlds in a single breeding between your best doe with one or two flaws and a buck with the qualities to fix that flaw. With all the genes each is carrying that expectation would be equal to trying to win the lottery by only playing one time. It may happen, but your odds aren't good. One can only expect positive results through selection over generations and line/inbreeding to fix those acquired results into your herd.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

One other idea is to look at mature bucks for sale as well. Unless you are looking for something specific you might be better off to buy a 2 or 3 or even 4 year old with kids on the ground. Many breeders especially those with smaller herds will cycle out and sell a good buck (due to him being too closely related). If you see an older buck for sale you can then also see his kids on the ground and potentially some of his offspring in milk rather than guessing what traits he will throw.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

When I chose my recent buck kid, I looked at the pedigrees of his dam/sire. I looked at the photos provided on the website, LA Scores of both sides of the pedigrees and National Show Placings of the goats in his pedigree. That's what I had to go off of. I wasn't able to just go visit and see everyone in person...So I bought him based on what I saw through the scores/pics/show placings/pedigree. I do not regret it one bit. I love that buck and I am looking forward to seeing kids from him.  And I was able to see some of the girls (his dam) at Nationals. LOVE those goats.  That was the only time I got to see any of the goats from that herd in person...so I am very thankful Tim had Magnolia there b/c I highly I'll get the chance to see her again in person.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

One thing that has been suggested to me is to look on ADGA genetics. If the buck's dam or granddam have been appraised, you can look up the traits you need to improve your herd.
Speaking of buying a buckling on looks - spots - I just got a call from a 4H girl last night interested in buying a buckling from me this spring. She wants a buck with spots. Since one of my bucks happens to be spotted, there is a good chance I'll get a spotted buckling. I'll have to select the nicest one for her so she'll have quality as well as color.


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## WGF (Jul 1, 2009)

This is good information Im so glad it was posted. Ive been looking at bucks. Cause I believe Im going to add a new one to my herd so this really helps alot.


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

I look at a buckling, pick apart his faults, multiply them by two and ask myself if I could live with him throwing that in his kids. Babies are cute and fluffy, and at certain stages I've seen horribly bred kids look awesome, for a month or two... If he's a *little* over at the knee, it'll be about twice that bad when he's fully mature if you're lucky, if his shoulders are loose or his back legs are posty, it'll only get worse. Or so I like to assume, to keep myself safe. 

I like to see him from all sides, watch him walk to and from me and I feel for flat bones, well sprung and spaced ribs, I like to see their rumen at full capasity, which depends on his age, if he's nursing or foraging. I look at how high his escutcheon is of course check for two clean teats, and general conformation and dairy character, do you like to look at him, if he reproduced himself would you be happy or are you expecting more that what he may be able to provide? Does he have strengths in all your does weakness'? But when it all boils down to it, it's the pedigree and what he should do for you that matters. I have a great buck who I cross routinely over this atrocious doe I have, I keep wanting to cull her but the kids are phenominal, which makes sense, they're linebred on Trailblaiser LOL so I'm keeping a daughter this year and planning on finnally booting the mom LOL


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## pjt367 (Apr 3, 2010)

I, too, love these discussions. I learn so much from others discussions and then save the link so I can get back to it when it is time to use the information. Thanks AGAIN!


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

I also like these posts as I am unclear about the dairy look, being a Boer person my look for a " Dairy " is a shade distorted . I did those goat photos in the Dairy Journal on judging and picking out the best buck and I failed for the Nubian buck pick,as I like to see his mamas udder. I wonder why the udder is not the main issue on a dairy goat ? Dairy goats mean udders and milk to me like a meat goat means girth size and weight :/


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

In my opinion udders are the main focus on a dairy goat, we just breed for overall conformation to promote a healthy udder... in all that's been explained to me, most of all conformation 'wants' are to keep the udder safe, high, healthy and productive  

I think dairiness is in your skin (are they lose, pliable, soft), length of bone, spread of ribs etc and that little triangle they get, behind the ribcage, usually tends to scream 'dairy' at me


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## KingsCoGoatGuy (Dec 20, 2008)

I've seen some pretty nice udders attached to does that have made me gag at their bodies, thats why we (or atleast I do) breed for the total package. Gerenal apperance is almost soley related to structure (only 5 points are related to heads and breed standard for color) that is the reason your gerenal appearance is worth the same as your mammary system. Both are important, as is body capacity and dairy character. 

As defined in the CANADIAN scorecard. (Not sure how the ADGA wording states)

Dairy Character is.....Animation, angularity, general openness and freedom of excess fleshing, giving due regard to the period of lactation.
DAIRY CHARACTER - Neck long and lean. Throat clean. Withers well defined and wedge shaped, rising above the shoulder blades. Ribs wide apart, bone wide, flat and long. Flank deep with arch well defined. Thighs incurving to flat when viewed from the side. Loose, pliable skin with fine hair. (15 points)

If we were not on a public forum, I could show you pictures of some pretty uddered does, that lack alot in other parts of the scorecard.  

As Tracy and Vicki stated. I'd want to see the dams and what they have for records first, then if she has a son for sale look at him. Both testies, two clean teats, and no faults is all I look for...


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## billinohio (Jun 24, 2009)

I will look at a baby buck, but I really want to know what his dam, grand-dams. and the maternal great-grand-dam look like......and if he has any full and/or half-sisters. The other BIG consideration.......will this be a line-breeding, or an outcross? If it is an outcross is there any history of these genetics working well with what I have?? 
You can have a buck produce great progeny with some genetics, and not produce anything worthwhile out of other bloodlines.
I would agree that it is very difficult for newbies to know much about the different bloodlines. For me, that is a huge advantage of buying animals from "long-established" breeders. Those people can be a tremendous resource for advice. 
And most of the time, you will not pay much more (if any more) for their animals than you would pay somewhere else. And, if you figure that you may be culling some of your first animals, as you upgrade........it is probably cheaper, in the long run, to pay more for the better animal.
Just my opinion.....(and I am not infallible  ).....I cannot imagine not investigating the animals behind the buck before I incur the costs of raising thse progeny to the age where they have an udder.....and I finally know what I really have. 
A friend of mine jokes that the ugliest bucks that she has had has given her the best animals, and the best looking bucks never gave her anthing as good as the ugly bucks.
I am reminded that years ago I visited one of the top Alpine herds in the country. They were showing me around, and telling me about the various anmimals. W e walked past one pen and they said nothing about that buck. I asked "Who is this?" They said that he is so homely, they hoped that I would not notice. They said that his daughters are either wonderful or they are terrible. On the right does some of his daughters classified in the 90's. Bt they culled a lot of his daughters.
IMO, breedoing is a lot about matching genetics. Some bloodlines seem to work together better than others.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Some _ugly_ bucks have gorgeous daughters...I pick bucks based on their pedigrees and if possible DHIR records. I do not buy bucks from herds with no appraisal scores, if I can't feel the does with my hands, I want to see their scores. An animal that is weak where I am needing strength isn't going to do me any good! I look at the sire's female relatives, the doe and her relatives, I look at offspring from both sides, I look at animals of similar breeding. If it is a repeat breeding, I look at offspring from the earlier breeding. One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet- I look at percentages in the pedigree. If I am going to a complete outcross, I want the highest inbreeding percentage I can get from animals I admire (like my Pruittville buck). If not, then I want something in, something out- which is often what I am working with when I keep a buck from an outside breeding to use in my own herd, always keeping in mind what I am looking to improve. (Thank you Tim for that advice!)

Confronted with a pen of bucklings- I would get out the pliers and chlorinate the gene pool! :lol


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes but.... something in and something out means you breed him to your most prepotent dam line, keep a buckling out of him and he is usually pretty quickly sold down the road. Most herds have not been breeding long enough to use this advice yet. V


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Vicki - if you want to use him on one doe to get the genetics into a buck kid out of your doe why not just use AI or pay for a breeding? 

I dont think I'd buy a buck with the intention of doing just one breeding and then selling him.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's not that you wouldn't keep daughters, freshen them etc...but if his daughters freshen as you expected, he isn't as likely to stay as a son of his is out of the dam line that works on your farm. Sometimes the qualites you want in a buck, aren't in AI or aren't avaliable to you. As is seen in prepotent females for instance, so banking on a son of hers is done all the time. Not all semen is for sale publically also. If there is a line I want to bring in and try, I will do it off the back of a doeline I know alot about, exactly how Hendrix was purchased. And I have outside bred to a buck who actually was my second choice when I bought Nic. I think it's about doing everything, not just one thing. And about the time I think I may do AI, I really have a buck I want to put over another bucks daughters and this year I will be keeping sons to use in the next several years..........


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

> And about the time I think I may do AI, I really have a buck I want to put over another


That's my problem. I have straws in the tank but I also got 2 really great new bucks this year and have two possibly even better on reserve for next year so dont know when I'll be able bring myself to use whats in the tank.

Maybe the year after next....


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

You have to use those AI bucks at some point, or you may as well get rid of the tank ;-)


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

I know. May try to breed one or two alpines early this fall to Hill N Holler or the Pendragon semen I have. I should have this year but just never seemed to get around to it - and as I said I really wanted to use my new bucks.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

But then you have all those other people, especially in Nubians proving or disproving if that hot young buck in your tank is even worth using in a few years


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't go for hot young bucks -- I go for the old steady boys ;-) 

But if they aren't worth using, then you ought to get them out of your tank too! Take up that room with good stuff


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

I have all my bucks collected as insurance in case of sickness, death or theft.

If they turn out to produce good milkers then that's great - if not - then yes -- their straws will get tossed. But understand that it will take 2-3 years before I know for sure either way.

One of my bucks will have daughters in milk being appraised in two different herds this year as well as my young stock and one other's herds young stock. If they turn our wel I am hoping I can sell some straws. Another wil have daugters in milk here and young stock here and in another herd.

The purchased straws are from proven bucks that I will use in future.


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