# Copper Sulfate



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I've read here the sulfate isnt' the best source of copper. Can someone point me to some information on this to verify?


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

It's all on Joyce's original copper site. But the deal with the sulfate is it will go through very fast and be excreted because it has poor bioavailability. It actually will work fine as a tiny portion in formulated feed, when copper oxide and copper chelates are used in addition to the sulfate. As a single source of copper, you just couldn't use enough for it to make a different without hurting the goat because of its bioavailability and toxicity.

It's like if you were eating a hamburger and your body could only use 1% of the calories and the only food you could eat was hamburger. You'd have to eat something like 15 lbs/day just to stay alive, and that would make you really sick.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Most all of Joyce's info is under the copper section on here.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

All I can find there is info on cattle and the sulfate looks favorable in that information. I'm sure I'm just missing it or something. Does someone know specifically where this info is?


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I did a google search of the website and just can't find it. 

I called a company to get info on getting a custom mineral done. You have to buy 2,500 lbs to get a custom mineral. But there are some mixes high in copper that are used so much you can however many bags you want as they are always making them. They have one that is 2,200 and one that is 4,400. He said there are some cattle poeple using 22,000. :O That's the right number of zeros. This is sulfate. These are big herds. 

Thing is they only use copper sulfate anymore. I told him I had understood it could be hard on the rumen. He said not in their research and rather that copper chelates were harder on the rumen than a sulfate. Of course this could be cattle only. I don't think he has research on goats. They don't have iron to their mixes, it just has 300ppm from the salt they use (which is unrefined- Redmond salt) so I love that too. So my sticking point here is the sulfate. 

I would love to find a good mineral I can stick with and possibly not have to bolus anymore. Not that bolusing is a problem, but rather because my horses and cows can't be bolused. So I want something that is good for all of them. Even if it is just better, and I still have to bolus that is ok too. But I know years ago when I had my horses and goats on the horse mineral, grostrong (3,600 ppm copper), I did not have thrush in my horses feet which they tend to get. I quit using it because the only source of copper was sufate and because it was super pricey.

I wonder if I can get some lower copper minerals from them since it will be low iron and without additives and even add copper oxide to the mix, if I only knew how much.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

here you go

http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/available/etd-01072009-31295012467543/unrestricted/31295012467543.pdf



> Thing is they only use copper sulfate anymore. I told him I had understood it could be hard on the rumen. He said not in their research and rather that copper chelates were harder on the rumen than a sulfate.


This is actually true for some chelates. By harder I mean there's too big of a pH differential. What do they mean? Cheap chelates such as EDTA based are worse than sulfate pentahydrate because of the pH differential. Also, even for better chelates such as ones made with an amino acid complex, it depends on how you prepare it or what you use for the substrate. For example an amino acid complex based on chicken feathers for the protein isn't the same as using soy meal. The final amino acid variations will differ. Also the way the denaturing take place to cook the proteins makes a difference. Chelate science is rather complex. Which chelate did they they study? Cheap Chinese products are not the same as properly manufactured chelates. Also the type of chelation technology used drastically influences longevity. Some chelation methods will only be nutritionally stable for 2-4 months.



> Not that bolusing is a problem, but rather because my horses and cows can't be bolused.


I'm a little lost. Why not?



> I wonder if I can get some lower copper minerals from them since it will be low iron and without additives and even add copper oxide to the mix, if I only knew how much.


I would offer to help, except I'm way, way overloaded right now to make the mental shift to do feed formulation. But I do have some bulk copper oxide needles if you need some.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

> > Not that bolusing is a problem, but rather because my horses and cows can't be bolused.
> 
> 
> I'm a little lost. Why not?


For the horses, because I have never been able to find information on whether or not bolusing is effective- since they are not ruminants. For the cows, because it would be a heck of a rodeo  I don't have facilities to handle giving them oral meds.

Appreciate the help, I will check out the link.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

The link is on beef steers, is this correct? Wow it's long but I'm sure full of good stuff. I'll have to digest it.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Ashley said:


> For the horses, because I have never been able to find information on whether or not bolusing is effective- since they are not ruminants. For the cows, because it would be a heck of a rodeo  I don't have facilities to handle giving them oral meds.


Ah, of course. Copper oxide needles work in a similar way with horses, but the dosages are different (much much smaller) and they don't last as long. Easier to mix into feed or salt lick than bolus.

Yes, link is for a study on steers. In this case, the findings are applicable to all ruminants.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

I've read that Copper Sulfate acidifies the rumen and this isn't good also.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

You can buy Copper Sulfate from Hoeggers in 1 lb. packets , I use it only during worm weather spring or wet season and mix with feed and feed 1x a week . It is the same thing that's added to pellet feed and some minerals . During the winter or xtr hot dry weather I dont use it as the minerals work fine and the worms are low. I also use Copper Bolluses but they are harder to give and I did go to pet store (Vicki's advise ) and get a dog pill giver thingy and it works great , I can give my big doe's 2 pills at a time with a cookie chaser and they swallow them right down .
On the cows tho,I did read in a Ag. stock book that the beef meat is just over loaded with Copper Sulfate and no telling what that does to human bodies .


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Linda, I bet the copper in the meat is probably good for us. With the way people tend to not eat liver anymore (myself included) we probably tend to be low on copper anyway.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Pav- I ran into this-copper affects luteinizing hormone-http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC392207/ I think youd like it and the references are a gold mine. 

Ashley- how about buying the kind of copper you want included in the mix and bringing it to them?


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh, they're in Utah.


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