# Lactating Goats and Alfalfa Pellets Question



## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Right now I give my 3 pregnant goats 2 cups of Purina Noble Goat each a day and maybe 1 cup of alfalfa pellets every other day in addition to their grass hay and minerals as a treat. I haven't been able to find any good alfalfa and they are due any day now. I know alfalfa is much preferred over grass hay for lactating does and helps them produce more milk. What do you guys think of a regime of continuing with grass hay, 2 cups of Purina Noble Goat chow? I'm going to start giving them more alfalfa pellets and doing it every day....but how much should I give them would you think? In short, with what I have....what would YOU give your lactating goats?


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I feed mine grass/weed hay (all I can get in my part of the state), a dairy pellet and alfalfa pellets. They get 2-3 pounds of alfalfa pellets a day, mixed with the commercial feed, on the milk stand. Each doe gets a different amount of concentrate depending on her production and stage of lactation. I weigh the feed on a scale, I don't measure by the cup, but by the pound.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I give my does free choice alfalfa pellets and grass hay plus their milkstand grain which is plain oats. With free choice alf pellets, they end up eating around five pounds a day each.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

They need free choice alfalfa pellets to help prevent Hypocalcemia before and after kidding. Alfalfa will be the main protein source also. When my does were heavy in milk they barely touched grass hay. I figured they scarfed around 6 lbs. of pellets a day, each.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

I feed Chaffhaye alfalfa free choice, with my late gestation and lactating does getting it as a total hay replacement right now. This is the first year we've done it as a total hay replacement and did so from about 6 or 8 weeks pre-kidding. All vigorous kids, healthy labors, and does milking well this year. Before 6 or 8 weeks pre-kidding they were getting it free choice but I was also providing coastal bermuda grass hay. They get oats on the stand. One cup of alfalfa every other day is not likely to be enough. Also, consistency is really important so that whatever you're feeding it is consistent from day to day.


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Great info all. I think I may very well turn to free choice alfalfa pellets for the time being. Do you guys give them that AND have hay available for them as well, or JUST the alfalfa pellets? 

Also, I've been getting Purina Noble Goat simply as a way to try and better balance their diet since I am relatively new to dairy goats, AND because I believe it is actually about the same price, if not cheaper, than plain oats. What would you guys think then of giving them free choice alfalfa pellets and giving them Purina Noble Goat while they are being milked, as opposed to giving them oats while being milked? Would that be a pretty balanced diet in your opinions?


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

They would still need hay and/or browse.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Matt think about that logically again....how can whole oats cost $19 per 50 and your ground up contains heaven knows what be the same price....you know other than leavings of grain products, it contains little to no actual grain. Nearly all grain by products. Especially considering the much lower price Purina would pay for a 50 pound bag of oats like we do retail.

I wish you also could turn it around in your mind that what your goats need is the alfalfa pellets (alfalfa hay), the grass hay....and yes because they are heavy bred and going into lactation need some calories, fat and carbs/energy from grains. If you simply increased your alfalfa pellet feeding, you could get buy easily with your 1 cup of grain morning and night...just wish it was actually grain  Heavy milkers may need a cup or more of grain each feeding to keep their weight, but move slowly, and make sure it is actual weight they need, feel over their ribs. Nothing looks worse than a doe who is all sunken in from just kidding, that is NOT skinny, feel over her ribs.


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Vicki, by the WEIGHT the Purina is costs less, but I gather you don't think the Purina is nearly as good for them simply as whole oats. I'm no nutritionist. That may very well be true. Those are the kinds of comments I'm looking for. As I said, the reason I'm feeding the Purina goat chow is I thought it would help balance their diet since it has vitamins and minerals, protein, cocci meds etc., especially since I don't have any hay analysis ever done on my hay like many folks do. Sounds like you would just give them free choice alfalfa pellets and maybe a cup or so of oats each time they are milked? Perhaps I'll start doing that. Thanks!


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## hmcintosh (Jan 8, 2013)

Alot of times I feed alfalfa to all my does at the same time about 2 cups each and then get them on the stand individually and feed them my mixed grains according to their age and weight 
and wether their in milk or pregnant. My pregnant does don't get as much because of not wanting the babies to get to awful big. After kidding I feed according to their milk
production. If I fed free choice alfalfa I would be putting more money in feed than I do buying groceries. I do feed hay also but it is not the best quality so thats why I feed alfalfa pellets.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I feed plain barley for my milkstand grain right now because it is much cheaper than anything else I can get. It's a little dusty but the girls love it. They are alpines and I do not think they could keep their weight and milk as well as they are on just a couple of cups of barley per milking. I don't weigh their grain but they get as much as they want while being milked. They also get as many alfalfa pellets as they want, plus the pasture is awesome right now, and they get millet or clover/orchard grass hay. They are not fat at all and are milking much better than I thought they would on just barley. This is the first year I have fed this way, after feeding a molasses-rich feed last year and having several issues with more than one doe with ketosis/milk fever symptoms. I even lost a doe...first one lost in 7 years years of raising goats. I'm on the hunt for straight alfalfa hay. When I find it, I will switch to it and nix the pellets and lower-quality hay. I finally got my pasture to grow all winter so they'll continue to have access to that too. A high-producing dairy animal really, really needs that alfalfa.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Matt, the grass hay I use is not tested either, although it is clean and smells nice. They just eat so little of it and most of their nutrition comes from the alfalfa pellets and browse.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

If you buy your feed at a feed store like Tractor supply or our local feed stores up here, oats are actually more expensive than the commercially made feeds! Sad but true. The whole oats are 18.25 and the Blue Seal dairy goat pellet is 14.95, both 50 pound bags. The alfalfa pellets are 16.45/50.

When I can get it, I mix the whole oats and alfalfa pellets on the milk stand. If not oats, I feed a pelleted dairy cow feed mixed with the alfalfa pellet.


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Sully, Same here. I'm in north Missouri and actually, MOST places oats are more than commercial feeds but I did happen to find a local feed store that carries cleaned whole oats for $15 rather than the $18-19 they usually are per 50# bag, I'm guessing because it is packaged just in the next town over, 15 minutes away. At that price, the oats are just about as inexpensive as name brand mixed goat feeds, but usually the oats are more most places, but as Vicki pointed out, even though the oats are more, you know exactly what you are getting. And the alfalfa pellets here are Standlee. They are only $12 a bag. I THINK they are 50# bags, but I'll have to look again. They could be 40# bags....they're sneaky like that sometimes.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Pronking Publius said:


> Great info all. I think I may very well turn to free choice alfalfa pellets for the time being. Do you guys give them that AND have hay available for them as well, or JUST the alfalfa pellets?
> 
> Also, I've been getting Purina Noble Goat simply as a way to try and better balance their diet since I am relatively new to dairy goats, AND because I believe it is actually about the same price, if not cheaper, than plain oats. What would you guys think then of giving them free choice alfalfa pellets and giving them Purina Noble Goat while they are being milked, as opposed to giving them oats while being milked? Would that be a pretty balanced diet in your opinions?


If these are from good milking lines, and they were mine, this is how I would be feeding them.

The one year we tried the Oats "experiment" my girls milked well, but had to dry up early and then had our first full-blown case of milk fever. Fortunately, I realized something was "off" and had pulled out before the first dairy goat was due - have never had a problem with milk fever or reduced production since we have returned to the pelleted feed.

I know that Sara (Blissberry, multiple Top Ten Nubians) uses Purina Noble Goat and know at least 6 others with really good milkers who use it as well and do really well on it. You want to use management that most closely reflects the goats and production that you have.

And yes, some grass hay or good browse as they need the long stem fiber.


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

As an aside Camille, its worth noting that Purina Noble Goat has at least two different types of feed. They have a grower, for younger goats, and a dairy pellet, for milkers. I believe the latter has more calcium, among other things. I have only ever used the grower on my pregnant does. It seems most people start upping their calcium a month or two before they are due. I have a goat right now that I suspect might have Hypocalcemia. I started increasing their alfalfa pellets almost a week ago. I should have probably done that a while ago along with switching over to the dairy pellet. Guess I Wasn't thinking, being a newbie. I was going to just wait until their started being milked to switch them over. Now I know. I think I'm going to be offering them more oats though from now on in place of the Purina Noble Goat anyway, but we'll see.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, Matt, I must have helped over two dozen breeders and their goats when they switched to whole oats (even rolled oats) as their primary grain and then they were crashing all over the place... But your call. 

If you think a doe is in trouble, start drenching her once or twice (my pick) a day with MFO or oral CMPK (2 ounces = 1/4 cup) mixed with gatorade and a little molasses - for energy. You may be able to squeeze past it if you start now. Handling a full blown case of hypocalcemia is no picnic - and if she crashes prior to kidding you could lose the kids as well as the doe.

Then get some CMPK injectable from your vet to have on hand if you need it.

I was referring to the Dairy pellet for milkers. 

PS The other twenty or more breeders that have had ketosis/hypocalcemia/milk fever and have helped coach them through were not feeding alfalfa or not enough alfalfa or alfalfa pellets to their heavily bred does.


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Camille, I didn't elaborate on the doe I was talking about in this thread. I actually have another post going on her problems and what I have been doing. I've been drenching her 3-4 times a day with MFO for the past few days, in addition to upping her alfalfa. Her temperature has been normal, her appetite fine, but she is not able to move much. She's due any day now. I'm new to goats, but from everything I have heard, the only thing I can think of is hypocalcemia. I checked her a few minutes ago, and I am starting to wonder if she is starting to digress. The past few days she has hardly moved around at all but JUST had the ability to get up and down and she was drinking water and eating hay. Now she still eats her grain, but I haven't seen her eating hay much anymore, and she didn't drink any water when I brought it to her, even though I'm fairly certain she hasn't had any since last night or this morning. Not sure what else to do beside take her to the vet. Is it normal for does with hypocalcemia to have it for a while? I thought she would start getting better after a few days of MFO, but maybe it's going to take her longer to get over it. She started exhibiting slowness almost a week ago, but it's only been the last 3 or so days that she has been pretty much immobile. Thanks for your help.


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

....she can sometimes get up on her own, take a few steps, and then lies down/collapses. I'm going to check her temp again tonight in a bit. If she continues to not drink water tonight and tomorrow morning I'll have to take her to the vet.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Not trying to be rude...but...is she FAT? I mean like can you grab a handful of fat right behind her point of elbow. 
I just posted on the other thread that this just isn't making sense for hypocalcemia with the normal temp and eating...it's just not making sense *period*. Didn't realize she's been getting grower pellets throughout her pregnancy? How old is this doe again? If a ff, I'm off base, but if an older doe, then having grain though her whole pregnancy could be a problem if it's put fat on her.


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Denise, I didn't check how much fat she had behind her elbow when I was out, but I don't think she's fat. She's about 14 months old, first freshener. I think maybe I should have switched to dairy parlor pellets a month or so ago...they have more calcium. I just started them on a few cups of alfalfa pellets right after she started slowing down, almost a week ago. So they've all been just on grass hay, and a couple cups of Purina Grower Noble Goat a day until recently. I did just go out, and whereas last time I was out she didn't drink any water or eat any hay, she did both when I was just out....and her temp was 103. Everything seems to be pretty normal except that she can barely get up and walk at all


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

If you have a confirmed breeding date and you are within 5 days of that date, you should be able to go ahead and induce her.

Sometimes that is the best course when a doe is starting to decline, rather than improving. Metabolically it will be easier to correct once she is not carrying a load of kids, but you will still need to continue to drench her until she is back on her feet.

I would also suggest that you steal some cud for her - don't give it the same time as the MFO. See if you can jump start her rumen (just in case it is getting sluggish). Can't hurt, might help.


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## Foxbridgehounds (Apr 14, 2013)

glad i found this thread, i was wondering if Alfalfa was a good choice to feed.


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Camille, I went to the vet this morning and did a blood and urine test. Calcium was on the low side but not too bad, and she did have some signs of ketosis. He said to keep what I'm doing with the MFO and gave me some Propylene Glycol as well. He also gave her a shot to induce her and said it would make her go within 1-2 days. It's good to know at least that on her workup she was within range on everything.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

That's great. If you hadn't been drenching with the MFO your ketosis would have been worse and your calcium lower.

If you give the propylene glycol, dilute it as well, with at least 1/2 again as much gatorade (type stuff) as the PG. Many folks don't like PG, but if you need to save a does' life - it's, well, a life-saver. Molasses is a little more benign and still provides calories and energy and minerals too.

Keep up the good work and keep an eye on your other does. Looking forward to some good baby news soon!


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## jasonmtapia (Apr 3, 2010)

Now you guys have me curious. I free feed alfalfa pellets at $13 for 50 lbs. used to feed bails but they waste most of it. Then they graze at will. Mallow, mustard, pepper trees, etc. Then when on the stand they get calf manna, some grain maybe thrown in, or maybe sunflower seeds as well, as long as milk is flowing thy are eating whatever they like. With as novice as we are (5 years itch goats) we have never had a problem with hypocalcmia. But after reading how scientifically some of you are doing things I am wondering if we are oversimplifying things. Are we?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I doubt seriously you ever were dealing with hypocalcemia this time either. Oral drenching has never worked here, it's busy work. You flood the rumen with all this and they will stop eating. PG burns the throat, raises the acid level of the rumen and she will stop eating. By having a consistent diet, low in molasses, low in protein from grain, you also aren't going to have any of the hypocalcemia/ketosis/toxemia diagnosis on your place to have to learn how to treat it. 

Calf Manna is what, 32% protein? Why on earth would they need that when your alfalfa pellets are already 17% protein minimum? Most have no idea how much protein is in their alfalfa hay, or it's lower than our minimums so they have to feed a high protein soy, fish and feather meal, cottonseed meal, ground up feed to balance the low protein in their hay. Feeding this and that, is the worst thing you can do for your goats, goats thrive on consistency. Figure out what is going to be offered on the milkstand and feed it. Sounds like your pastures are wonderful, why not just feed good clean whole oats and a fat, which would take quite a bit of black oil sunlfower seeds to up the fat, so it's not going to be a quarter cup. If you want to add some calf manna, because it is an excellent source of vitamins and minerals with soy protein than limit it.
Protein grows them out, once grown you have no reason to be feeding proteins like that, it doesn't make milk, it doesn't keep weight on. Herds that feed high protein also have longevity issues in their herds, they also can't breed their does young because they will bow their long leg bones, protein and grain feeding like so many do simply is not your friend. Why I always love the "I tried oats for 5 minutes and didn't like it and went back to sacked 16% feeds". Well yeah.....it also is higher in fat than plain oats, it also has vitamins and minerals with it, so what is your mineral mix like? Can't compare apples to fortified apple flavored ground up you have no idea what it is. And is ground up byproduct feeding, better than feeding grain....it does seem to be now.

If you can keep your does weight up, their milk amounts up to what you are happy with, you have good amounts of kids born, than use your grain to supplement that wonderful pasture and your alfalfa pellets, using a grass hay only when your pastures are depleted. Keep stocking rates low so you don't overgraze. Then instead of pounds of by product feed tags, which is what they will have you on next, you can feed whole grain, cups rather than pounds. You will have zero feet and leg, acidosis, founder, worm, cocci and other nuisance problems will never be an issue (parasite problems in your area will be only brought on by overstocking and stress, including nutritional stress). Fatty liver and especially the reproductive issues that grain gives you with obesity.

Just another way of thinking about this. Vicki


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Camille, I took your advice with the PG and gatorade. I have to find a bigger drench gun than 10cc's though! One after another after another after another. Vicki sure is right about busy work, but oral drenches are all I had. I'm definitely expanding my medicine cabinet after this event though. Vicki is certainly right about the propylene glycol suppressing their appetite...at least with this particular doe. They HATE it, and she didn't seem to eat much afterwards....something you probably don't want a doe to do (not eat) when she's sick. For what it's worth, and it maybe it's the exception to the rule, maybe not, her appetite seemed to be fine when I was drenching with the MFO, but not with the PG. I like that MFO, but I think I will use it as a preventative rather than an emergency treatment. Injections would seem to be better for that.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Drenching with MFO may keep you busy - BUT it works. Sorry it works. Too many folks have been helped with this or other concoctions when they have been unable to obtain CMPK injectable. 

Think about it ....Why else would Sue Reith have a homemade Calcium recipe? MFO is just easier than crushing up calcium tablets etc.

MFO is best for "just starting" ketosis/hypocalcemia, but have seen it work in full blown cases. And yes, why folks prefer molasses over Propylene Glycol - fewer side effects.

Glad your doe is doing better and you are adjusting your management now.

For Jason: Not necessarily scientific - when we started we fed what the breeder before us fed - alfalfa and a 16% grain. Now we just understand the science behind it better.  Browse is awesome for goats - the best, really - but for high production animals, having alfalfa available as the mainstay, as the goat chooses, is wise. For you - you feed alfalfa pellets and browse (the long stem fiber, as it were). Great alfalfa is available here and at a much more affordable price than pellets, even including the waste factor. Of course, we pick up the "waste" hay and feed it to the calves, so very little waste in the long run. Great compost pile too.


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## jasonmtapia (Apr 3, 2010)

So no calf manna, stick with whole oats, and I am sorry but what else for more fat? Good info. Here in Santa Barbara our community is NOT an animal community. Well except the uber wealthy and their horses. So we don't get a lot of good advise. As an example Our one large animal Vet could not figure out what was wrong with violet several years ago. I came I this site explained the symptoms and you all said polio. I told him. He got upset and said not possible. I said she is going to die real quick. Give me the prescription if I am wrong, then well looks like she I going to die anyway. He gave it she was fine in hours. So thanks for the continued help.


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Jason, Yep. Vets are like anyone else. Some are great, others, not so much. Hard to beat the experience of someone for example who has raised and bred goats and nothing but goats for 30 years, even if they don't technically have a DVM in front of their name. A vet I talked to the other day about my sick doe didn't even seem to know what MFO or CMPK were, and he's been a large animal vet for 25 years! Maybe he was playing dumb and he wan't to see if I knew what they were or something, but when I mentioned I was drenching with MFO, he asked me what that was. Course that's not to say he doesn't know his stuff. Maybe he just wasn't familiar with THAT particular product, but still, goat people sometimes have the advantage in the micro sense of goat husbandry when they do all goats and nothing but goats all day every day.


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## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Camille, you may have said this elsewhere in the thread and I missed it, but I know you said you were a bit weary of feeding oats to lactating does because you have met a lot of folks who started doing that and their goats were crashing, so what what do you feed your lactating does? Right now, I'm giving all my goats alfalfa pellets 24/7, as well as grass hay. Then when I milk out my doe, I'm giving her maybe 2 cups of Purina Noble Goat and 1/2 cups of oats. What do you think about that, and what would you do different? Here's a picture of two kids I just had by the way:


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Cute kids - cute little coats. 

The only change that I would make to your feeding program would be to substitute rolled barley for whole oats. Any grain is better fed rolled than whole - you get 25% better conversion when the grain has been broken. It has been suggested that oats can actually interfere with the uptake of calcium, but I don't have any scientific data to back this up - the person who told me this does have advanced degrees in animal nutrition, however. Oh, and raised goats for 20 years, as well as dairy cattle. All I know is that straight oats has not been a good gig for most people. Your current ration just means you are adding more fiber to the diet and their main carbohydrate source is the Noble Goat.

I think "if I remember correctly", cuz you had lots of threads of this type going at the same time - that the glitch in your feeding was the lack of a source of calcium - ie, the alfalfa pellets. Otherwise the above should do your goats just fine.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I don't give any added fat besides what is in the oats and alfalfa. They get fat from some of the browse here and I think their actual need for fat is pretty low. Even without added dietary fat, most of my milkers have to be restricted on their grain and even their alfalfa at times because they start to get too fat.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

doublebowgoats said:


> I don't give any added fat besides what is in the oats and alfalfa. They get fat from some of the browse here and I think their actual need for fat is pretty low. Even without added dietary fat, most of my milkers have to be restricted on their grain and even their alfalfa at times because they start to get too fat.


And this shows that one size doesn't fit all. Never have had to worry about my does getting fat - they work it all off in the milk pail. OTOH, I hear that Nigerians can get fat on air :biggrin

Start with the basics and adjust accordingly. Best thing is to imitate the feeding program of the breeder you are purchasing from - if you like the condition of their goats and their productivity. If you find that problems are arising, such as in Matt's case, then you had best reevaluate and make some changes.

We do add 1 handful of BOSS to our goats ration. They like it, they have glossier coats and Dr. Parrish at WSU told me that BOSS is one of the best things to feed a goat for rumen health.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

BTW< We do feed the Boers differently - when they are not nursing kids and for the first 3 months of pregnancy they are on excellent grass hay or alfalfa/grass (same price here) as they get fat on alfalfa. As much browse as I can have them eating.

But they are not putting 1 1/2 gallons to 2 gallons of milk each day into the milk bucket - big difference.


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## azponygirl (Apr 2, 2013)

We have gone to feeding alfalfa pellets to our goats free choice with a little hay in feeders if they want to brosw.
I must say the goats look better ,waste less and are much happier.
I give oats and Calf Manna on the milk stand


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I've been happy with whole oats and alfalfa. I know several people on here can report good results. My Mini Nubians resemble Nubians more in production and food consumption, than they do Nigerians. I do occasionally have a milker get thin, but I've never had a metabolic condition in my herd. More alfalfa, more clover, more pasture, more browse is what I'm after. It's not rocket science - High protein comes from a very few sources - legumes: alfalfa, clover, or soy beans, or fish and feather meal. The later is not an option here, of the legumes alfalfa and clover are prefer over soy. Your mystery by-product pellets get the protein from soy if they are not using animal by-products. The oats in my routine are just for a little quick energy and fat. The backbone is alfalfa and clover (mostly alfalfa).


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

I am curious to know what the milk production is on your goats? 

I ask, because for me, I have found that I do better following management of folks with similar animals - i.e., production, such as Tracy Stampke or Lauren Acton or Sara/Blissberry as they have strong production goats. So more for folks who are trying to figure out which management program to follow.

(kind of like knowing which area of the country different goaters are in - I would never worm our girls the way the folks down south do, for example).


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

There are excellent horse feeds that contain 4.5 to 8% fat. There is very little thought or quality in goat feeds, you are in horse country (where I was raised on horseback, showing nationals etc.) your products are superior. There are dry mixes (oats, corn, barley, alfalfa etc.) that aren't 25% molasses like most byproduct mixes are. Even with excellent hay like you have there, you have equally excellent alfalfa pellets and chopped alfalfa hays that have zero waste. We fed a product called alfaMO which was chopped alfalfa and molassas they also carried one with more fat because it had oil on the alfalfa instead of molassas..... with the waste and the giant compost piles of manure/shavings and hay at every horse farm, no way could it cost less to feed hay with the labor and waste of alfalfa hay. Increasing fat with your raw grain feeding, with rice bran pellets....just ask what fat they have (goats really don't like to much oil or powdered products). I never mention I have goats when talking to feed guys, they know nothing about goats...about as much as the guys at the mills.

There is also a grain pellet called 12/8....12% protein 8% fat that if you cut in half by feeding 1/2 whole oats and it, would be a perfect feed. And most high end horse feeds are menued, so on the bag it says the ingredients, not plant protein by products etc...in a byproducts label, that means every milling all they really are guaranteeing you is that the protein number, fat number and roughage number is met or exceeded....they switch out products each milling for least cost. Not what a ruminant should be having happen to her diet each time you pick up feed.

It's not just about high milk yields, we routinely had does milking 14 pounds (and our does are Nubian), a 4 year old is milking this at her new home, moved right after freshening, imagine what she would have milked at home not stressed from the move...and we do this on alfalfa pellets, excellent minerals, grass hay, browse and oats, rice bran pellets fir fat and a dry mix of oats, corn, barley alfalfa meal etc. Protein does not make milk. What it is about is overall herd health, too much grain, too much protein you get acidosis, feet problems and when you break it down the problems on the forum are nearly always management and feed problems. Someone said goats are fragile, no, management is.

We talk a lot about making changes slowly, yet so many don't think about the fact that the changes made each and every time their sack of feed is milled is a huge change, in most cases overnight to the does as you run out of feed and run to the feed store for a new sack....and in reality it is a completely new sack of feed. Vicki


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

It's rather apples to oranges to compare production between a Saanen and a Mini Nubian. 10-12 lbs from a Mini Nubian is pretty darn good in my book, plus the additional butterfat. I need to get a lab test. I believe it is closer to the ND 6%, just judging how quickly I'm getting a thick head on my milk. Mine aren't all doing that number, but the best do, and the others get sold. I don't mean this in a snarky way, it's just priorities. If a goat can't fill her protein needs on alfalfa, then it doesn't fit my goals. My agricultural interests are somewhat political in nature, and soy and animal by-products are not what I want to be consuming. I'm after more of a forage based diet.

My point was that people talk about replacing a soy pellet with oats. Well of course that won't work. You have to substitute alfalfa for the soy and oats for the plant roughage products. That means substituting alfalfa above and beyond what you would typically feed with your soy pellet. That is why I found it easiest to feed a 50/50 mix of alfalfa pellets and whole oats, and then I feed alfalfa hay on top of that. This was also the most economical solution in my area. I'm getting my alfalfa right out of the field a block from my place.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Angie - 10-12 lbs for a mini-Nubian is strong production. Not trying to make anyone feel defensive here. But truly a Nubian that 
produces 6 lbs/milk a day with a 6 month long lactation can be fed differently than a Nubian giving 12 lbs/day and that lactates for the full 300 days.

And things are not mutually exclusive - we get a 16% dairy feed without soy and certainly never any animal by-products. Our feed company actually listened to the goat breeders and they use culled peas (26% protein) to provide the protein base in the grain. No soy. Lots of right ways to get ones' goals accomplished, but for relatively new folks it is generally safer to start with a base program of good hay and grain, excellent mineral, worming program etc and then tweak your feeding program from there. 

Still always recommend that if someone is purchasing nice animals from a breeder to try to imitate that breeder's feed program before making changes.

One gal purchased a doe in milk from me last year. She was a FF producing 14# milk/day. Within 2 weeks she was calling me as "someone" had told her to feed grass hay and that only a handful of oats was necessary for grain. After I talked her down off the ledge, I asked her what breed of goat the "expert" had and she said "Nigerian Dwarves" Talk about apples and oranges!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

10-12 lbs a day is great production for a mini Nubian! I'm guessing my mini alpines will be around that amount in their 2nd+ freshening. Matters also how long that production is sustained, too.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

These are two senior does milking like that. I do think it is because of I am feeding so much alfalfa. I've changed things around to make alfalfa for milkers a priority. They are so spoiled they won't even touch grass hay if I mix some in. They just stand there screaming for their alfalfa.

That's awesome you are able to get a mix with peas, Camille! Living in the land of soy I forget there are other options out there.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Guessing Camille gets the peas where she lives because the Palouse area of WA/ID is pea/wheat/lentil land. Pullman, WA is home of the Lentil Festival, no joke.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep, peas and barley.  That and some beautiful alfalfa - a goat breeders happy land!


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

wheytogosaanens said:


> One gal purchased a doe in milk from me last year. She was a FF producing 14# milk/day. Within 2 weeks she was calling me as "someone" had told her to feed grass hay and that only a handful of oats was necessary for grain. After I talked her down off the ledge, I asked her what breed of goat the "expert" had and she said "Nigerian Dwarves" Talk about apples and oranges!


Apples and oranges, indeed! And that's not even a good diet for a Nigerian!


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## Blackbird (Jan 11, 2013)

Camille, are you saying that those herds only doing that well in the milk pail because of management? I have animals from two of the three herds you mentioned before. My goal is powerful will to milk, and solid, honest milk genetics.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Nope not saying that at all. 

I am saying that if you have goats with excellent genetics, you have to manage them properly to allow them to reach their full genetic potential - and thrive. 

I "like" your goals. :biggrin


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

wheytogosaanens said:


> I am saying that if you have goats with excellent genetics, you have to manage them properly to allow them to reach their full genetic potential - and thrive.


Amen!


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