# Help, my doe isn't eating



## abtowell (Nov 6, 2009)

Ok, I lost thelast post due to picture size. I have a doe who hasn't eaten more than 2 bites of her dinner and now her breakfast. She has dropped 2/10 of a pound of milk at both milkings. I offered her mineral and baking soda. She doesn't want either. She doesn't have a temperature. She was 102 but I think she is a little cold. It is snowing and her knees and ears feel cold. She is almost 6 years old. I do think she looks paler than the rest of my goats in th eyelid. She had a triple round of Cydectin 10 days apart the end of December after she kidded. I do not have a microscope and it is snowing and I have 7 homeschooled kids so going out for one is not an option today. I do have all sorts of wormers and antibiotics but I don't know what to give as I don't know what's wrong. I don't see anything else out of the ordinary except that she has 2 bumps on her side that abcessed a few days ago after her Lysigin and I believe Bose injection. I can't remember, I would have to look at my calendar, it could have also been CD&T although I am sure that the bumps are at theinjection sites because I watched them. Shehas never gotten an injection abcess before but she has also never had Lysigin before. One bump has now scabbed over and looks fine, flush with the skin. The other is grey on th skin but still about the size of an oval nickel. I stuck a sterile needle in 2 days ago and squeezed out the puss and cleaned i with Betadine scrub. it does not look infected to me, but I thought I'd mention it just in case there is some weird thing I don't know about. What do I look for?

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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Probably acidosis, what do you feed her? any chance of Moldy hay? Changes in feed at all?
I would get a Tablespoon of baking soda dissolve it in a little water, suck it up in a syringe and place that on the back of her tongue and make her take the dose (drench her) Then no more grain. 
Kao Pectin to coat the stomach (30cc) cheaper at a farm store - can be done every 4 hours if needed
B vitamins twice a day
Steal some cud from another doe, or kefir, probios, yogurt to start the bacteria back up .
what is her feces like? If she starts diarrhea then more than likely it is acidosis, if you can get to town or have these meds on hand.
CD Antitoxin (dose dependant on weight - 200# doe gets 50cc)
Naxcel (loading dose and then once a day for at least 5 days 1cc per 50#)
Banamine - half does twice a day
So to sum up, if you at least have baking soda, do that! hth Sherrie


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I would start with the baking soda one way or another and pepto or malanta or malox and see how she does. BVits always but I wouldn't start antibiotics just now.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, that's what I meant, Just start her on those and then Watch her, what other symptoms are you seeing. The baking soda drench, and coating of her tummy may be all she needs. vit-B


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Not eating her grain is one thing...is she not eating her hay also? The abscess are shot sites, usually from not cleaning the skin before giving the vaccines...they can make lumps and be perfectly normal but they do not abscess unless it's unclean technique. Also make sure you give shots under the skin and not in it. I don't think the two things are related.

Cydectin even after kidding in December wouldn't have really been a wormer I would have used because your colder than us, it's unlikely you have any HC at all at fecal, you would though have cool weather worms, and 4th stage HC which you needed to use Ivermectin to kill. Do you have snails on your property or where the hay is grown? It's also why Ivermectin Plus for liver flukes is given also. Look in goatkeeping 101 at the famacha/anemia chart, is she anemic?

If you take a temp correctly even with cold ears her temp is correct. Push hay, get something new for her if you can to tempt her with, a different kind of hay or even from just another source.

B vitamins etc....of course. Vicki


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## abtowell (Nov 6, 2009)

Ok, I am pretty sure it is hypocalcemia. I gave baking soda, plus it offered to her all the time. I only ha her for half the pregnancy. Before me she was on solid sweet feed, and almost no alfalfa, just pellets. At my house she eats a mix of oats, barley, corn, and free choice alfalfa. I got a friend to do a fecal today. We saw no worms. I forced baking soda down her throat, and nutridrench, and some Karo. I also gave her 30cc's of CMPK that I went and got at the vet this afternoon. I gave it to her at 6pm. So far she is still pooping and drinking but she isnt eating hay or grain. Is there anything else I can do? Also I ought another doe pregnant who had a similar diet at the previous home. She just kidded 2 weeks ago. her bag looks awesome but she is still on the thin side. I have coppered her as I have this doe alsoher, although she had a round of Ivermectin + too. Should I give her some CMPK to avoid this in her? If so how much?

Thanks


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

CMPK 30 cc in divided dose on 2 sides every 2 hours until she starts eating.
I would drop the sugar. She will not regain her appetite with all that trash. 
I would free feed alfalfa to the second doe to avoid this.
Lee


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## abtowell (Nov 6, 2009)

The second doe does get free alfalfa. What bugs me is the sick doe did too, so that's whay I ask if both should get it. The sick doe condition wise is much better than the other I mentioned. I can't figure out what I did wrong. I mean she was milking 8-8.5 lbs and looking great and in 48 hours I have a half empty bag and she looks depressed and completely disinterested in food. I didn't know the 2 hours thing, I thought it was 6, I will go give some more now.

Thanks,
Alysha


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Alysha, is she eating now after the CMPK? Anything else to get her eating?


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## LamanchaLover (Jan 11, 2010)

How is she doing? Is the other doe
okay?


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

hope she is okay.....how is she now?


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## abtowell (Nov 6, 2009)

Ok, she kept us in suspense all day but this evening at 8pm she started eating and when I came inside to type this she was still eating. I have given her CMPK today and I gave dex and thiamine a goat friend offered and I figured it couldn't hurt. Not sure what did it still which bugs me because I want to know what to do next time. Her pen looks like a buffet. She has bermuda, alfalfa,alfalfa pellets, baking soda, mineral. Pretty much everything but grain. So my question is now. How long do I keep giving the CMPK and do I give anything else? How can I prevent this from happening again since I don't know what I did wrong? Also will her milk come back. She has only been in milk 90 days next week


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm glad your doe is doing better. It can be tough when you're not exactly sure what it was you were dealing with. Now that she's eating, the CMPK doesn't have to be done every 2 hours. You can go to twice a day for a couple more days, then once daily for a couple more. I'd also give the thiamin once a day for a few more days. I've never used dex on my does. Lots of times, sick milkers, whatever the problem, go down in production. Mine have always gotten their production back after they got better.


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

If her temp was stable (not lowering) I would say acidosis. If lowered then milk fever and acidosis. While one or two doses CMPK isn't going to hurt treating her every 2 hrs or even every 6 could IF she doesn't need it. So check that temp and be sure it's milk fever before you give her alot of CMPK. 

Acidosis and milk fever do like to hang out together. In either case she has to have her rumen working well, and lots of hay is the fastest way to get that along with the acidosis protocol SherrieC posted.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Judith, Sue R. mentioned in her article here on Goatkeeping 101 that the temp will be normal at first even with hypocalcemia before it suddenly drops. With 3 days not eating I was worried about Ketosis and told Alysha to get some CMPK. It just did not look like just acidosis we see in milkers when they will go off grain, I am leaning towards the theory of the combination of the two. 

Can someone tell me if with a heavier doe (this one is 200lbs) it would take longer for the CMPK to restore the levels than in a doe that is 120lbs?? Or does it depend on how severe the defficiency was ? Or both??

Alysha, glad she is better  

Jana


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## abtowell (Nov 6, 2009)

Her temp never dropped below 102 but she looked awful and will not eat baking soda on her own. I had to force it. Any ideas for avoiding acidosis on a doe who hates baking soda?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

In my experience it is far less frequently ketosis than hypocalcemia unless they are very very fat. 
If you hit them right away at first meal missed with CMPK and they don't improve quickly then explore other ideas but the acidosis is predisposing to all the other problems so without correcting that permanently in your feed regime then you will always be courting all the things that follow from an incorrect ph in the rumen. Acidosis is the easiest fix and certainly no harm to be done from addressing that first if it is not the case. 

Avoiding acidosis has been the subject of many threads here recently perhaps do some reading. She is most likely damaged from that sweet feed regime where you bought her particularly if she has been on it through several milking cycles and again this is the reason why there are very few older does in milking herds.

It is the feed and the state of her rumen- not the fact that she won't eat baking soda that makes her acidic. Sweet feed is the death of goats. Read up on Acidosis. Keep in mind her rumen function may be compromised and she may never normalize and always crash under stress. You many have done a bit of damage with the cycle of wormer you did as well. Really before starting something like that "just in case" you ought to do a fecal. That is really a bit excessive unless you have identified the existence of resistant parasites in your herd. She many not even have been wormy with the weather so cold and such an early kidding. Often times you are looking at mineral deficiency symptoms when you think parasites. Without fecal Id to species you are wasting money and harming the doe. 

Try to find a source of Diamond V xp- DFM yeast to restore microbes and feed rumen microbials on a daily basis. 
This is an invaluable supplement for helping does with compromised rumen function recover and continue to produce.
Lee


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Lee, good point about the sweet feed. Everyone around here feeds it with the comment "the does are doing just fine on it". Well, they are .... for now. It's good to know about the long term effect and damage. Lots of the new folks just adopt the sweet feed practice of the old timers and the cycle continues. 

When the doe went off feed and Alysha and I were brainstorming the reasons, it didn't make sense to me as acidosis since I am only familiar with the occassional off grain for a day and then back to normal acidosis, while eating hay and alfalfa just fine. This was different and I think your angle of the sweet feed damage and flora that doesn't keep ph balance as easily brings the underlaying problem to surface. 

Thanks for the input !

Jana


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## trueblessings (Mar 10, 2008)

Is there a second drug of choice in treating Acidosis other than Naxcel? 

For those who don't have it on hand yet. 

Lynn


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

No drug treats acidosis.
Neutralizing and proper diet and supplemental microbials are the only cure.

Read about Cephalosporin
This is Naxcel- it is nothing that will help with rumen damage or lowered ph.
In my book this is big guns saved for tough bacterial problems. 
Antibiotics further disturb troubled rumens and should be avoided unless fever or infection is present.
We are starting to see salmonella resistant to this drug from overuse.


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## abtowell (Nov 6, 2009)

I noticed there are several types of Diamond yeast products, which one do I get. I have some XPC I think from Hoeggers, but I think you mentioned DFM, which do I need, and is there a real difference?


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

prairie nights said:


> Judith, Sue R. mentioned in her article here on Goatkeeping 101 that the temp will be normal at first even with hypocalcemia before it suddenly drops. With 3 days not eating I was worried about Ketosis and told Alysha to get some CMPK. It just did not look like just acidosis we see in milkers when they will go off grain, I am leaning towards the theory of the combination of the two.
> 
> Can someone tell me if with a heavier doe (this one is 200lbs) it would take longer for the CMPK to restore the levels than in a doe that is 120lbs?? Or does it depend on how severe the defficiency was ? Or both??
> 
> ...


With acidosis for 3 days it could induce lowered levels of available calcium. Not saying CMPK was totally uncalled for. All I'm saying is that CMPK every 2-6 hrs for a doe that doesn't need it could kill her. Without a blood test or lowered temp the reduction in milk could be a couple other things.


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

trueblessings said:


> Is there a second drug of choice in treating Acidosis other than Naxcel?
> 
> For those who don't have it on hand yet.
> 
> Lynn


Yes, Excenel. Same drug, same dose, different carrier so it may mobilize a little differently.

To explain the point of view that the treatment mentioned first in this thread....Three days of inflammation and it's likely there is secondary infection present. Antibiotics help get this under control before damage is done (or to minimize it) while you coat the stomach with Kaopectate to prevent more damage and use baking soda and diet restriction to get rumen ph to normal. Banamine helps reduce the inflammation and also the pain- which goats are known to react badly too to the point of not even eating hay which would be their main "cure". B vitamins help induce appetite and prevent other illness from B deficiencies while the rumen is "slack".


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

IMO There is no good reason or explantion for recommending antibiotics in this case and many others. Certainly not for the abcesses. Topical ointment maybe on the open wounds but while closed they do not respond to systemic antibiotics which is why they burst to the outside of the body. She has no inflammation in the rumen that would respond to antibiotics. Antibiotics are not called for in this case. She had no fever and no bacterial problem that would respond certainly not a loading and 5 days after- that is inappropriate and over the top and creating more problems as well as nullifying the use of the medicine later.

The pain would be instantly alleviated with neutralizing the rumen with an oral dose of an OTC antacid. 
Banamine would be using a shotgun on a spider.

The goat was suffering hypocalcemia and that is why she needed the CMPK quickly and in large amts and that is why she went back to eating. It works every time if that is the problem! Calcium by itself can affect the heart negatively but in a balance like CMPK is not threatening.

Yes- the products are named differently at Diamond V because they are different formulas.
You need one with direct fed microbials. dfm

Lee


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## abtowell (Nov 6, 2009)

Thanks for the Diamond info, and just to be clear, I didn't give any antibiotics, I just wondered if I should. I can see why I shouldn't. I just mentioned the abcesses because I wanted to give as much info as possible in case I was missing something. What I fould makes perfect sense. I was feeding her the Diamond stuff when she was pregnant and then I ran out around Christmas just after she delivered. I didn't order anymore because it had been a trial run and I wasn't entirely sure why I was using it, plus the expense so I didn't order more. That explains why she got the acidosis now. I think the CMPK was called for because she hadn't eaten for 2 days straight when I started giving it to her and I had already tried baking soda several times with no result. I think the CMPK is what kept her from being to weak to eat but, of course I could be wrong. I am definetly not going to run out of Diamond Yeast again, especially since she thinks baking soda is for the birds. Thanks for all the help though, 100 heads are ceratinly better than one, which is the whole point here. It's always tough to know all the facts when it's not person too.

Alysha


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

> Yes, Excenel. Same drug, same dose, different carrier so it may mobilize a little differently.
> 
> To explain the point of view that the treatment mentioned first in this thread....Three days of inflammation and it's likely there is secondary infection present. Antibiotics help get this under control before damage is done (or to minimize it) while you coat the stomach with Kaopectate to prevent more damage and use baking soda and diet restriction to get rumen ph to normal. Banamine helps reduce the inflammation and also the pain- which goats are known to react badly too to the point of not even eating hay which would be their main "cure". B vitamins help induce appetite and prevent other illness from B deficiencies while the rumen is "slack".
> Report to moderator Logged
> ...


 :yeahthat

The antibiotic is for the secondary infection, not the acidosis.

My vet will frequently recommend an antibiotic in this case for just that purpose - secondary infection while the animal is compromised. I have one vet who will sometimes recommend a second antibiotic during treatment, to cover both gram positive and gram negative bacteria. (4 years ago when a kid got navel joint ill). Also, if you read Sue Reith's treatment for floppy kid (acidosis) she recommends giving the kid penicillin to ward off a secondary infection. In her case, one shot is generally sufficient, but different ailments call for different treatments and protocols.

Many long time breeders follow the original protocol - one I know is a DVM and is very well aware of not overusing drugs when not called for. Most drug resistance occurs when the full 5 days is not followed to the end (folks either get tired of doing it or want to save a few pennies).

Agree that CMPK is okay even if the doe doesn't need it - The calcium is balanced with the MPK, so it is safe. Based on this doe's symptoms and response to treatment, she probably had lactation acidosis - which, coincidentally is treated almost exactly like milk fever, except for the addition of baking soda and antibiotic. Sometimes the temp doesn't drop with lactation acidosis which further confuses the goat owner. But the milk definitely goes away!

BTW, if you didn't have Excenel or Naxcel, I would go with Biomyicin (LA200) as it is a good broad spectrum antibiotic.

Glad to hear this doe is doing better. She is not out of the woods yet - keep up the baking soda every 4-5 hours, tempt her with browse and hay - alfalfa will be fine. She should come back into milk, but it may take her a little time. Be patient. Oh - and make sure she is cudding. Otherwise, b-complex is called for so that you don't go into polio while she is recovering.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

WHAT infection? You _assume_ infection? No fever? Nothing but appetite suppression for 2 days? 
This is why our medicines are failing us. Everyone jumps to drugs first ask questions later.

This is very bad husbandry.

Just because you have access to these medications is no reason to use them.
I understand totally why vets are so adamantly opposed to people having their own med chest.
Fancy free inappropriate application. This is absolutely what will make it harder to get drugs when we really need them and harder to find antibiotics that will do the job when it is a serious one.



> Most drug resistance occurs when the full 5 days is not followed to the end (folks either get tired of doing it or want to save a few pennies).


That is incorrect. There are many pathways to drug resistance in bacteria - horizontal transmission of genetic material has created bacteria resistant to things it has never encountered. One dose of a drug will cause environmental pressure on a colony that will change how it approaches the next dose.

I personally am not going to shoot all my ammo at shadows and will wait until the real boogie man appears.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

You chose to ignore the fact that I work WITH my vet, and he recommends antibiotics for secondary infection. :You may choose to not use them - that is your call, but you have not gone to vet school and studied all of this.

And for myself, we probably use antibiotics 4-5 times a year, with over 100 goats here, that is a very small percentage and highly unlikely that we are going to get drug resistance that way.

More people overuse and use wormers incorrectly, and are creating a verifiable problem there.

Oh, and banamine is not just for pain - it is a smooth muscle relaxer and helps stop or slow the horrible stomach cramping that the goat is experiencing. Goats and pain do not go well together.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> you have not gone to vet school and studied all of this.


It does not benefit anyone trying to learn about goats for you and I to have a personal conflict on here but you are right I could not afford vet school even with a scholarship to UC Davis but you are wrong to assume I have not 'studied all this' during a life of animal husbandry. There is no way to be even moderately successful without doing so.



> we probably use antibiotics 4-5 times a year, with over 100 goats here


Then I am sure you can see how rarely someone with few animals would need them.



> More people overuse and use wormers incorrectly, and are creating a verifiable problem there.


I hope you do not mean that antibiotic resistance is not a verifiable problem.

Peace Camille ~ We disagree! That is the spice of life. Just ask my Grandmother and her 8 sisters :laughcry

Lee


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

Not to interupt the lively discussion, but Buckrun, you mentioned Diamond V xp- DFM. This something new to me. Do you feel this should be given to all does or just those with a compromised rumen? How much do you recommend giving? If all goats, is there a certain age you recommend starting it at?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Audra, Diamond V is great for any goat compromised or not .


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

Okay,thank you! At what age do you begin feeding it and how much?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Everyone here gets Diamond Vxp DFM daily.
In the baby safe where kids get fed their cocci pellets they have a little dish of it to lick on alongside their minerals.
They start finding it and eating it at just a few days old. The does here get a couple of tablespoons top dressing milk stand ration and dry does and bucks have it mixed in with their minerals at a rate of 3 scoops mineral 1 scoop yeast.
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We had a really good discussion on this just last month. Vicki


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