# Do I tell the breeder?



## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

I tested all my goats for CAE. One goat I purchased from a breeder in Ohio is a very big goat breeder. She sells lots of dairy goats and is in many shows. I asked before I purchased if her goats are CAE negative. She said (and also puts this on her ads):


> All animals bottle raised under strict American Dairy Goat Association CAE Prevention Guidelines.


Well, my doe is CAE positive. High on the titer- 80%.

So should I tell this breeder that her CAE prevention is not working?

I'm not at all looking for anything from her. I love this doe, very much. She is conformationally correct and I will raise her kids on another dam's colostrum & milk that has been tested negative. I just feel she should know, or better put, others should know that her methods of prevention are incorrect. I hate seeing her ads and thinking others might be misled.


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## JumpinIrish4ever (Mar 11, 2010)

Um...I live in Ohio...would you mind sending me a PM with the person's name? I don't want to get taken. :sniffle


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

I would definitely politely address it with the breeder. If the animal was tested within a reasonable time frame and came back negative, I am sure a reputable breeder would work with you on this problem and that she would like to know.


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

:yeahthat


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Is this goat an adult? Sometimes a goat that has been fed pasteurized milk/colostrum from a CAE positive animal will have a positive titer...but then as they grow up they test Negative and ARE negative.

Just a possibility.

Also, yes, in the nicest way let the breeder know. I would wait until the retest before I notified the breeder (or anyone else - so easy to damage someone's reputation, so you want to be sure).


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

The doe is over 2 years old. I've had her for 10 or 11 months. If I had been more up on things, I would have tested right after I bought her. But I hadn't done it before, so I was just learning and asking breeders about CAE and how they test, etc. Now that I'm fully on board with this issue, I see her ads and wonder if I should say something?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> All animals bottle raised under strict American Dairy Goat Association CAE Prevention Guidelines.


If they don't say TESTED FREE OF CAE then that is a common side step around the issue of a positive herd.
They are raising prevention because they are CAE positive.

This is a huge red flag! unless they also say tested CAE negative.

And yes I would contact the seller and tell her that you have a positive test on her doe just so they know. I am so sorry Dana- what heartbreak for you. Hope you have some lovely does to harvest and raise clean.

Lee


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

I would definitely let her know.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

All I can say is that I'm sorry this happened to you.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes I am also very sorry. Kids get CAE at birth from drinking positive colostrum and milk, pretty much period...there are other very suspect science cases that the goat could turn positive as an adult, dog attack, something that is blood to blood contact with a positive goat, like how bucks sometimes head butt to blood, maybe. A positive buck breeding a doe with a uterine infection or an active infection in the vagina, maybe  I would send her your negative tests on your herd, and the positive test on this doe and see if she will produce her whole herd negative test. It's also why you test as soon as the kid hits your place, be it even a youngster because a doeling if positive from a herd who says they are negative is missleading you. If they heat treated positive colostrum to make the kid positive and they say they are negative than how does the kids react? It doesn't.

And there is no American Dairy Goat Association CAE prevention guidelines, as in if you states this ADGA will do anything, ADGA is not the police and even talk of a buyers contract in committee has never happened...they have guidelines for sterility and they of course are the police when it comes to registrations, but not this, and they really shouldn't. 

Curious why you would believe the words on a website? Did you ask for a contract and if you didn't why not? Did you ask to see testing and weren't given it, or didn't ask. In this day and age, and hopefully it was before you met us, the CAE nazi forum  And why did you put off testing? Not spankin you, just really want to know.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Here is my protocol:
1. Let the breeder know where you tested, when you tested and who you tested.
2. Test any animal that has or may have had this does colostrum/milk. 
3. Notifiy anyone that you have sold any animals to that has been exposed to this does colostrum/milk.

I would re-test any animals that have been in contact with this doe during lactation and I would Fort Knox the doe you are now in love with. 80 is positive as day is light and night is dark. It doesn't matter how many times you test...I know, I have had to deal with this problem. JMHO


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

Yes, I wasn't planning on a re-test showing anything different. 80% is high. I do have 1 doeling who was borderline positive. She is 7 months old. I plan to re-test her next year. My others that were negative were 3%, 7% and such. The titer really made it possible to tell what might be going on with them.

As for Vicki's questions, and I don't feel spanked: I'm bummed about the goats who showed a positive, but I went into this test knowing I could have positive does. I bought my first goats not knowing about CAE, bought at the auction, and bought from breeders who only did CAE "prevention". 

Honestly, I wasn't sure I believed in the tests. So many people have told me that the tests are unreliable. And not from people trying to sell me a goat. From breeders at fair, at 4-H, and at livestock sales. Now, that I finally did the testing I can see that CAE through Bio-tracking has a lot of merit. 

I put off testing because I knew there was a high probability that a few of my goat would be positive. I just had to know though, for the sake of the unborn kids, so I could raise them differently. 


I'm glad I did, but now I look down at people who don't test. :/ I be came a snob quickly.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Dana, 

it is usually folks who don't test that will tell you about tests being unreliable. It's an excuse. Ask a few knowledgable questions, like what labs they used to see if they are indeed speaking from experience or not. 

Sorry about your positive doe but glad you got your herd tested and have peace of mind about the others. 

Jana


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

"I just had to know though, for the sake of the unborn kids, so I could raise them differently." Dana

And now you can! 
If you are holding the CAE+ doe you can milk her last, use totally different milking equipment (better to use different stand as well), sanitize everything throughly. Throw away the milk, make soap with it, it is safe for human consumption, throw it on your lawn, whatever just don't use it for kids at all. 
Tam


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

> I became a snob quickly.


Well, welcome to the club!

Seriously, many see us as snobs when we are really just willing to do the hard stuff... And if you think a few podunk Dairy goat folks get miffed at you, wait until you announce to the Boer goat world that you are CAE negative and CL Free! :yeahthat

In that venue, so many of the "Big" Breeders have CL and have to vaccinate for it, it is just not funny. And they explain away their CL vaccinations (which don't really work anyway...) by telling folks that they are being responsible "in case" they pick it up at a show. No way is that happening! Shows turn away goats with abscesses and we personally purchase more pens than we need at a show in order to create a buffer around our goats. No contact means no chance to very remotely possibly get CL from an animal without an open abscess.

:soap

Sorry - this wasn't about me, but am really really sick of the little platitudes some breeders give out. Why not just do it right and help yourself and the next guy?! :sigh :mad

And yes let the breeder know - and then keep going forward with your plan to separate and pasteurize.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

> just don't use it for kids at all.
> Tam


 :yeahthat

If you feed cow's milk from the store or Negative milk from your own goats you will never have to wonder if "just that one time we made a mistake in pasteurization". No way no how your kids can get CAE if they never ever touch that goats' milk.

Great point to make, Tammy!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Don't wait a year to retest a borderline. Test her about in a few months, perhaps she got maternal antibody from positive colostrum or even heat treated colostrum...or she was stressed or vaccinated or ill. Don't put off the retest, and always retest borderlines. Can you explain the kid being borderline with where she was born and the colostrum she recieved?

And you either believe this disease comes from colostrum and milk or you don't. Seperation of the does is about marketing, there is no way you can catch CAE from a milk stand or feed trough or milking machine, well unless instead of you milking machine sucking it blows???  We have never had a buck or doe convert, not after my buck Eric bred does for almost 10 years who were positive, including pen breeding, and not does. We pulled chronic symptomatic does from herds with 2 sisters positive and the rest of the group of 4 negative, and they never were positive. I also would never heat treat and pastuerise positive milk...and while you have positives on your farm, dye the milk with food coloring after you have pasteurised it, make sure you family knows that nobody is to feed the kids ever anything but colored milk. I fed my kids, or if my children were going to lambar I handed them the bottles or lambar, nobody ever fed my kids, it was my reputation, and starting out just like you with a breeder lieing to me, I was never going to sell another diseased goat if I could help it. It does make you a snob. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> And you either believe this disease comes from colostrum and milk or you don't. Seperation of the does is about marketing, there is no way you can catch CAE from a milk stand or feed trough or milking machine, well unless instead of you milking machine sucking it blows???  We have never had a buck or doe convert, not after my buck Eric bred does for almost 10 years who were positive, including pen breeding, and not does. We pulled chronic symptomatic does from herds with 2 sisters positive and the rest of the group of 4 negative, and they never were positive. I also would never heat treat and pastuerise positive milk...and while you have positives on your farm, dye the milk with food coloring after you have pasteurised it, make sure you family knows that nobody is to feed the kids ever anything but colored milk. I fed my kids, or if my children were going to lambar I handed them the bottles or lambar, nobody ever fed my kids, it was my reputation, and starting out just like you with a breeder lieing to me, I was never going to sell another diseased goat if I could help it. It does make you a snob. Vicki


Thank you, Vicki, for stating this so clearly. This statement is what I have gathered from what I have read on this forum, but it is nice to see it, and read it, and believe it, when it is stated so clearly. I have bloodwork to send in on two doelings; one purchased and one from one of my CAE+ does. I know, for certain, that my doe never touched a single drop of milk from the CAE+ does. The kid pen is 50' away from the doe pen with a horse paddock between the two. I only fed a colostrum booster (no antibodies) and store-bought milk. I am expecting her to be CAE-.

I don't know why people are not honest when asked about CAE or CL. Either they are deliberately deceiving or they have their head buried in the sand. Kind of like, "if I ignore it, it will go away". I have heard many excuses for not testing: "My goats are healthy", being the biggest one. Are they sure? How do they know for sure? Of course, they don't. Some ignore it completely. "I have no clinical signs so I'm not going to worry about it" yet the knees are as big as softballs. One breeder I know has active CL absesses and still shows. Whoever checks out the does before the shows ignores it, as well, because it is blatantly obvious. I had one breeder tell me that they practice CAE prevention, yet are not always there when kids are born and does not feed pasteurized milk. How is that CAE prevention? Seriously. It is not. Head in the sand or BS - one or the other. Even the vet told someone, "if you have goats you're going to see CL".

I was contemplating putting an ad on Craigs List wanting to buy colostrum. I would want paperwork that the doe/herd was CAE-. I'm not going to do it because I don't trust anyone around here. So many people around here do not think it is a big deal. Well try milking a doe whose udder is so hard and fiberous it just can't be done. I'm going to buy the dried cow colostrum with antibodies. It should at least be an improvement over what I fed the kids last year. FWIW, my doe kid has grown well, but I was worried, always. Still am, sometimes.

Thank you, Dana, for having the courage to bring this up.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I would definately tell the breeder about the results. I once had to do that. I bought a few goats from a friend that were out of a spotlight sale goat from a well known herd. They showed up positive and I knew it had to be from that spotlight sale doe because she had a hard udder. I discussed the results with both my friend and the well known breeder. My friend was actually willing to board my positive does at her farm in a quarantine pen in exchange for their milk.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

"I became a snob quickly" Well if you are doing the work to make sure you are raising healthy CAE- kids you have every right to be a "snob" That takes a lot of hard work.


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## Nancy (Oct 25, 2007)

Testing is so simple and affordable, more people should do it. Even though ours tested negative we still pasteurize the milk and heat treat the colostrum. It is too easy to have an error in pasteurizing(not long enough or hot enough, thermometer is off, etc). Been there done that, purchased from someone years ago that didn't test but pasteurized,result positive doe. We did let the breeder know and the doe went down the road.


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## WGF (Jul 1, 2009)

I also live in Ohio and would like to know who this breeder is. I raise nigerians but im not sure what you do. But im like the other poster would not like to buy from someone that is maybe selling goats that are positive. Thanks


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

The best way to not "accidentally" purchase a positive goat is negative paperwork in hand for the whole herd. Ask for it every time you purchase a goat, then when you bring your new goat home test it. 

Lynn


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

If someone bought a kid from me that was unsatisfactory in any way(and CAE status would certainly be a BIG one!), then I would want them to tell me.
And you know, even though I preach testing, I rarely have a buyer ask to see the proof. So its easy to see how positive animals are still so common.


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## IndyGardenGal (Jun 11, 2009)

From the looks of the breeder's website, I think they're already aware they are passing off CAE positive animals. *If* it's the same breeder I think it is, their site also states that they don't guarantee CAE negative status because they attend so many shows in a year. Even as a newer goat owner, this raises a big red flag for me.

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

Wow a breeder that even states they don't guarantee neg. CAE. Might as well just go to an auction and buy a goat.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Well I don't know who you are talking about specifically but honestly folks it has not been that long that you could test or that we even knew what was happening with this illness that was so widespread. I would say late 1980's for most breeders to begin testing and into the 90's to make it routine.
You are looking at a generational attitude. Not guaranteeing negative status is letting you know to do prevention which was the only weapon we had when we were finally told what would work to combat this in the 1980's. This was when it was estimated that 80 percent of the national herd was positive.
It was a long climb to get the word out that there was a routine that would work to halt the ruination of the next generation- pre internet- think how slow communication was. It took a very long time for the accepted norm to be prevention raising.
We were so fortunate that the breeders we brought in stock from were in population centers that were up on the latest and they sent current tests (as primitive as they were) with any stock you bought but it saved us for those people to be so up to date. So all we can do is keep spreading the word kindly- snobbish it may seem to the uninformed but so very necessary. I have pd--off uncounted vets by informing them that 'artha ritus' is NOT just something goats have. Keep educating your customers and keep looking for new info. And testing.

What I am saying is a lot of older breeders have lived with this disease and have different attitudes about it having run the cycle for several generations of goats. I don't agree with this attitude but I understand how it came about.


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## couto_123 (Jul 16, 2010)

I have a question on this. 
Last year when testing mine, I had all of them listed on one page going to Bio-Tracking. Would it be any better to have them done seperately, or just make a copy of the farm results for buyers?
Thanks.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Mine are usually a couple pages long as I send in paperwork as the does turn 100 days or I get to them in groups. So when I give negative paperwork on the herd, either as a deposit comes in and I send out a contract or a kid is sold, or the doe herself, I simply highlight her name, since her registered name may not be her call name on the list. Only if someone asks do I give out all 2 or 3 or 4 pages of tests, although I have shown alot of people them here, nobody has asked for all of it before. V


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

Don't do what I did! ASK to see the paperwork!!!! 

I did get a reply from the breeder: "This is very disturbing... Was she your only positive doe? Has she been anywhere? Shows... Fairs... Or such... Are you certain she doesn't have some type of infection? Uterine... Ear... LaMancha's a prone to ear infections. I've had buyers test does before and none have ever come back positive."

She has not been to shows and she doesn't have any ear infections. Regardless. I'm not blaming her for what has happened. I admit I bought a goat without checking thoroughly for proper management. I'm just letting her know there is a good chance her methods sometimes aren't working. 

Could my doe have gotten CAE on my farm? I really doubt it, but it is possible. I do have another CAE pos goat in another pen.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> Could my doe have gotten CAE on my farm? I really doubt it, but it is possible.


No it is not possible.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

"Or don't buy a goat from a place that says they CAE prevent. ", Dana.

But Dana, most of us DO CAE prevent for kids, especially when customers are looking for that. However a copy of CAE (-) herd status to back that up helps. Now we show and we test. We breed others goats and we test. Anything that comes in or goes out gets tested.
Test, Test, Test. When I purchase I pay for testing, its done before the animal gets here. 
Tam


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## milkmaidranch (Jun 21, 2010)

Yes. I would want to know if it were me.


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

Tam- thanks, I modified my last posting. 
Yes, buy goats from CAE prevention raised breeders, BUT also check their paperwork. Like many on DGI have always said, breeders could be hiding something if they don't test. I really don't think this breeder I bought from is intentionally hiding something, I think she just made a mistake somewhere in her protocol. It happens. Now I know and I will test before I buy.


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## WGF (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm surprised by the number of people on here who have asked on this post and by PM to me to ask who she is. Guys! It doesn't matter who she is. Don't do what I did! ASK to see the paperwork!!!! Or don't buy a goat from a place that only says they CAE prevent. 

Wow sorry to want to know who it was, didnt mean to make someone mad. I just thought I would like a heads up since I lived in Ohio. I dont post on here much, sorry I ask a question. Wont make the same mistake again.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Just copy and paste into google.com that exact phrase that was used off her website ad, from the first post...you can narrow it down pretty quickly by adding Ohio to the end of it 

I want this forum to help new folks, and most decidely had you PMed me I would have shared who the breeder was especially someone in my state who may be buying, likely not someone just wanting gossip. We can really change the way breeders do buisness by holding their feet to the fire.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Found it.  

Do what Vicki said....google is awesome! lol


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

What IndyGardenGal said. She knows she has CAE+ goats. Hopefully, she uses this as a learning opportunity instead of assuming that your goat got CAE by some form of magic. You haven't been doing any blood transfusions between your one previously known CAE+ goat and this one have you, Dana? Because it sounds to me as if they have no direct contact and even if they did, CAE is not transmitted like a common cold. That goat came to you infected.


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## WGF (Jul 1, 2009)

Im sorry for my whole post over look me. I have many friends here in Ohio that have goats and just wanted to know If it was somone that I would deal with in the future are not. I do test my animals for CAE last two years negative, but this year will be doing CL also. But I didnt mean to sound bad are anything. I really wasnt just trying to be nosey or gossip.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Joanie you were not out of order in the least.
I think it is perfectly normal to want to know who.
Curiosity is how we learn - it is hard wired!


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Yep curiousity is normal, however the other post could have been worded better... a simple Sorry guys I wont give out her information would have been sufficent enough...JMO.


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