# was "going inside?" NOW QUADS!!!!!!



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Alrighty. Today is the REAL due date, and my doe is getting up & down, pawing, has FAR more discharge than she has lately. I thought the previous stuff was long & stringy, but this takes the cake. When she stands, she hunches up from time to time and acts like it could be begining stages of labor... When she lays down, I can see at least one of the kids moving around in there. 

So, I decided to go in and check and see if I can tell if anything is going on with her cervix... I haven't the faintest clue as to what I'm doing! Which direction do I go? How far in will I go before I feel it? What will it feel like? (like mine?) Is there a better position for her to be in when I try this? Laying down or standing up? She actually let me today--and let me pick a tick off her vulva that she wouldn't let me touch before, either, so I'm thinking that she's at least closer anyway. No way would she even let me touch the area yesterday and today I had a finger all the way in feeling around.

If she's really in labor, I don't want to let this go and have issues down the road b/c I wasn't proactive enough. But if she's not in labor, I don't want to go poking around and making her miserable. My labors have always been really long, so what seems normal for me may not be normal for her. How do I do this?


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## shawhee (Jun 28, 2008)

*Re: going inside?*

Billie is she pushing? I am new so hopefully someone will come along and answer better. But I have had to go in on three of mine this year. I dont go in (actual hand in) until they are pushing and making no progress. I have put fingers in to see if I can feel what is going on or if a bubble is coming. Hope that is some help??


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## supermom (Feb 24, 2009)

*I have the same question!*

I did as was suggested and stuck a finger inside to see if she was dilated. How am I to know? I immediately felt a bone under my finger, her bone, so I am thinking she is not opened up enough to give birth. How fast can that change? Could it still be today? (I really would like to sleep tonight!) If she was dilated, would I actually do something about it? I just have no idea what I am doing and definitely would prefer to just stand back and watch, but if there is anything I could do to save them all, I would. Is it normal to cry (her, not me ) for 24 hours before she gives birth or is that a symptom that something is wrong? I can feel the babies moving, too. I heard someone say you would not feel the babies moving if it was getting close. She always has quads, so I just can't imagine not feeling them if there are that many.

Thanks!
Monica


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

*Re: going inside?*

Congrats on the impending labor. Some does get very vocal when they get closer to labor. Is she pushing yet?

First of all cut your fingernails. Wash up to the elbows and coat your hand/arm with lubricant. When you reach in bring your fingertips together and push in carefully, then go slightly up and then down as if following the curve of a banana. If you can't go that far, then she is not dilated enough.

As for what you will feel when you get inside, it all depends on if the cervix is closed or you are feeling a kid or etc. There are better, more detailed instructions about that than I can give.

Hope that helps even a little.

Kim


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: going inside?*

hunching up is labor. I would try to go in and check. How long has she been doing this?

Sheryl


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

*Re: going inside?*

Keep in mind that they can be in labor for several hours before they get serious and start pushing. So just because you cannot feel anything now, does not mean that some thing need be wrong.

Also, were you sure that you felt HER bone and not the top of a kid's head?

Kim


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## supermom (Feb 24, 2009)

*Re: going inside?*

It was immediately when I went in....felt like it was part of her. I am just positive it was her and not a kid. because it as under my finger, not in front of it. Would that spread when she was really in labor? I really did not force myself in when I felt that bone.


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## supermom (Feb 24, 2009)

*Re: going inside?*

Okay, I tried going in again. I used two fingers and went up in the banana shape. The very tips of my fingers were able to touch a baby, but it was too tight for me to reach my whole hand in....at least I thought it was, but perhaps I was a little afraid to do more as she was baa-ing and obviously uncomfortable.

Monica


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: going inside?*

As far as is she pushing yet... well, how exactly will I know? I think the hunching up is maybe pushing? And I remember feeling myself like labor felt like an impending bowel movement. When she hunches up, she sometimes poops, and sometimes tries to poop (opens up her rectal sphincter) but nothing comes out, so I assume that's pushing? I didn't realize I would go in that far before feeling anything. It feels like I'm feeling stuff, but maybe a closed cervix? How long before, and is there a possibility that she will need help dilating her cervix? (I did--midwife had to strip my membranes w/my first baby in order to get my cervix moving) Is there a possibility I will need to do this with her?


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: going inside?*

And is there any measurement, like so many contractions within a certain time frame, or how far apart are they and how long do they last (like lasting a minute and coming 5 minutes apart) before I know she's really ready? I mean, if the contractions are 15 to 20 minutes apart, do I just go grab a cheeseburger and wait, or what?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: going inside?*

Well I am sure not the best at giving details but this pdf file give a picture of what your looking at. 
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/178336/goat-anatomy.pdf

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: going inside?*

that is not a great clear picture sorry. If you want a cheese burger run to the house get it and go back and sit is all I can say.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: going inside?*

Goats have different stages of labor, just like women do. Their labor is also of different lengths just like us. They will have occasional contractions in early labor and are usually standing and hunching a little when they do. It was really helpful to me to have an LPN here last year when I had a yearling in labor. She had been trained to observe the progression of labor and pointed some stuff out to me. In the earlier stages of labor, I will run into the house briefly if I need to. Those lighter contractions are getting the kids positioned in the birth canal. When I get concerned is if a doe's water breaks and she stops pushing or if she has hard contractions and nothing is coming. Best wishes for healthy does and kids. Kathie


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

*Re: going inside?*

When they start pushing there is no doubt that they are. No worries. You'll know. 

Kim


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: going inside?*

If your barn isn't too far away, you can eat your cheeseburger in the house and hear her pushing 

Just keep going in every half hour or so, until she kids. I think it's a great learning tool for you. It's very doubtful you felt kids, first you would feel a thick bubble buldging through the cervix, with a kid in it....your likely feeling the cervix which soon will open and dissapear. Vicki


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: going inside?*

Well.... after typing my previous 2 posts, I went back to the barn to find FOUR babies on the ground!!!!!! This is from a 13 month old first freshener! I certainly didn't expect QUADS!!!!! I knew she was huge, but I just expected big twins! Her sister isn't quite so big and I was a bit nervous about her babies, but now I think she's probably just the right size for two! She's due in 3 weeks!

So there were 3 bucks and a doe. One of the bucks is all black with a white spot on his side and has a parrot mouth. I've informed my husband about the possibility of him not making it, and if he does make it, he will be a pet wether for the kids. My kids adore him already, of course, and I've told them about the problem with his mouth--that he might not be able to eat and might die, so they're prepared. He's the biggest of them all, has already peed & pooped, but couldn't get him to nurse. Will try milking out mom and bottle feeding if we can't get him latched on. If my eldest son is willing to feed him, he can have him, but I don't want to put a ton of effort into him.

The other 2 bucks looked exactly alike. One was DOA. He was fully formed and looked fine, so I think that perhaps it was something with the birth--without me there, maybe he was dropped or maybe even born with his head back and that broke the neck? I don't know. They are all so small that I wouldn't doubt that he could have been born in an incorrect position and still flown out of there. At least it was a buck.

The other buck that lived is a cutie pie. He looks correct conformationally, is red with frosted ears and muzzle, white top knot, black stripe down the spine and black socks. He's already nursed, peed, pooped, talked up a storm, and made his way into everyone's hearts. Man, I planned on eating our extra bucks, but maybe we'll have a few pet wethers / lawn mowers. I don't know at this point! If the black parrot mouth buck doesn't make it, at least he can help the doe keep mama's udder even until weaning...

The doe is all brown--lighter than her daddy, but looks a lot like him. Lighter brown eyeshadow.  She's also already peed, pooped, nursed, and is SUCH a sweetie! She looks to be conformationally correct, too.

This breeding was kind of an experiment. The dam & sire both have the same sire. I hadn't intended to breed him to a half sister, but didn't want to wait a year to see his kids. I will keep the doe (as long as I can keep her alive!) and probably not repeat this breeding.

Mama passed her placenta and is doing well! My eldest son is out there with them all now, making sure she doesn't step on her kids and that the kids are staying warm under the heat lamp (up high).

I'm FINALLY getting a shower when I'm done here!  DH is about half way done with our library floor (Spring Break) and when it's all done and we can move our bookshelves back in, I will be able to get our camera (it's in one of the bookshelves all smooshed together in another room) and take some pictures.

VERY excited about our first Stoney Heights Farm kids and just wish I was there to see the birth!!! Cinderella, our LGD, sure enjoyed the placentas...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

There certainly should be two placentas with quads, but with the LGD there, she likely got it already.

Congrats on the kids! And half sister to half brother with only the sire the same is a very good breeding usually. Vicki


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

Congrats!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Oh, it took a while to pass the placentas... I stayed out there until she did, then removed them and gave to the dog.  After we cleaned off kids, we put mama & babies in the kidding stall and DH cleaned up the wet shavings and put new shavings down where she had delivered. Then I sat in the kidding stall w/her & babies until after the placentas were delivered and until I could get the two nursing. I'm thinking I won't repeat this breeding b/c of the parrot mouth. I do have a neice to this dam who I do intend to breed to that buck. We shall see! I'm still learning so it's all an experiment!  If my other doe gives me a doe, I'll keep her, too, and breed her to this buck. That's the plan for now, anyway!


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## shawhee (Jun 28, 2008)

Congrats!!


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Congrats on the kids. The parrot mouth is likely not due to breeding half siblings. I do it all the time. The only parrot mouth I've had was from two unrelated goats. It can be genetic, but also can be a fluke. Kathie


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2009)

:rofl That doe was just waiting for some privacy.
I waited around on one last year half the day.....ran back to the house to get something to drink, and she had 2 on the ground, and another on the way before I could get back.

Congrats,

Whim


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

whimmididdle said:


> :rofl That doe was just waiting for some privacy.
> I waited around on one last year half the day.....ran back to the house to get something to drink, and she had 2 on the ground, and another on the way before I could get back.
> 
> Congrats,
> ...


Yup, I watched a doe for hours and went to the bathroom, came back not 2 min later, 3 does and a buck lol


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## cindy (Sep 16, 2008)

Congratulations! Sorry about losing the buck. With your parrot mouth buck, if it's severe, they can have a really difficult time eating. Be sure to pay attention and make sure he's getting enough milk.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Congratulations!! The dam did a good job even without you!! TOLD you go right back w/your cheeseburger  
You might think right now abt putting that PM buckling down as he more that likely will not be able to eat properly even if you get him to suck a bottle doubt his teeth will match up in the back for chewing a cud. So just think abt it and don't let the kids get real attached yet.


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Congratulations! Quads! That is quite something, especially considering she was a FF. Very nice! 

Kim


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Yes, I've been having this discussion w/the family about Parrot Mouth. (That's what my 6 y/o is calling him--awful, huh?) I've been trying to prepare them for the worst w/him and it doesn't seem to be working. I never knew I lived with such a bunch of sentimental softies! DH wants to go ahead and buy whole cow's milk and give our son the responsibility of bottle feeding him and letting him be a pet... not taking any of mama's milk away from the other 2... I'm telling them that if he survives, he really just needs to be dinner. If we had more land fenced, he'd be fine as a lawnmower, but we don't. I think this is just setting our son up for heartbreak. I wish it weren't but, it's really bad. It's not a slight parrot mouth, but we're talking about a 3/4 inch overbite on a very small buckling. On top of that, somehow he has a dished face! To be honest, if he weren't all black with a cute little white spot and really strong on his feet already, I probably wouldn't even be entertaining the discussion, so I guess I'm just as bad. Since I really don't know what the night will bring (will everyone be alive, even, when I go out in the morning?) I may just sleep on it and see what comes of it all... 

I was very surprised that as a FF that she had quads! A yearling FF at that! She was born in February of last year! I suppose she's plenty fertile! I may have rather had 2 healthy, correct, and larger babies, but at least this way, they flew out! Might also explain her monstrous udder, too?? 

So, I've been spending lots of time out there, and it looks like I need to back off a bit. If I were milking and bottle feeding, I think I've got the ideal situation, but I really can't do that this year, so I've got to get the dam to realize that *I'm* not her baby and the kids to realize that *I'm* not their mommy! The little doeling wants to nurse off my chin more than she wants her mama's teats. The mama wants to lick me more than she wants to lick her kids. I've thought about bringing the kids in the house for the night, given that it was 70 degrees today and is supposed to get to 27 tonight, but that would probably only make my problem worse! Ahhhhh... I feel like a first time mom all over again!!!!


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## dvm-mommy (Feb 5, 2009)

Oh YAY Billie!!!!!!

What a joy eh? Sorry you missed it too!!! We had our third doe do that to us...dropped em out in between barn checks 

Congrats again!!


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

Yea, Billie, wasn't able to get online yesterday...the wait is over, at least on this one. As far as the "parrot mouth" he will grow out of it...mine did he is totally fine. His upper lip was so much smaller than is bottom lip. Very rounded chin on the bottle way huge...totally fine 2 weeks later...so don't make any HARSH decisions on this. Sometimes they need some time to grow. Sorry you missed the birth...they are sneaky ones aren't they


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

This one has a top lip that extends about 3/4 inch beyond his bottom lip. We will see. I've been out there thru the night and working with all of them. Will give it a fair shot and just see what happens.

Right now, mama's udder is huge and kids aren't taking much milk. They don't know how to nurse on their own yet, so I'm going out every couple hours and getting them on. Right now, I think milking and bottle feeding would be easier, but if they can figure this nursing thing out, then I know that will be easier in the long run. Just sooooo tired now! But I won't have the ability to milk and bottle feed in about a month or so, b/c I'll be going through all of this all over again with my own baby, so I really need this to work... Thinking maybe I should milk mama out a bit to relieve her some, though? Will kids go back to their moms and nurse if you give them bottles for a while?


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

Both of my girls had mild adema when they freshened. Think of when your milk comes in - not a ton of milk just swelling. You may be surprised by how little you get - IMO. I had to help my little guy for a bout a week to "figure" it out. You can bottle them for a few days then throw them on a lambar. They will get the hang of nursing...just need to figure it out. You probably don't have any frozen milk right? You just have to watch them make sure their tummies are getting round.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Also...mouths and faces can do considerable changing in the first few days to week.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks! I needed that encouragement.  I have to go to my OB appt. this morning and DH will work with them nursing @ 9 and 12 and hopefully I'll be back by 3. (other errands to run, too) Maybe by then we'll see more progress and be able to think more clearly. Some good news: The doeling has already passed her meconium and is having milk poops! The PM buck is actually stronger and more active than the other buck. He has me a bit concerned, but he is the only one who has been able to find a teat and nurse on his own so far. Sounds silly, but babies in general just scare me! Even my own! I like when they get older, so maybe I'm dealing with some of that, too!  Will probaby try milking the mama this afternoon... when my milk came in, I had a lot of swelling, but a lot of milk, too. Lots of stimulation from a baby that didn't know what he was doing, and this doe is going thru that scenario, so I don't want her to get too painfully big! Okay... of to the shower!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

other good news I had to share is that when I went out, all kids were alive!  Snuggled up together under the heat lamp. Smart things about warmth, anyway!


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

Congrads on the new babies! It might help the babies to nurse if you milk the doe out also. If she is really full then they can have a hard time latching on.
Theresa


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

Even when milking instead of dam raising it takes a couple strips to get the milk flowing freely. If you even milk out - say 6-10 strips- then get the babies on it will go easier for them, especially if they are small.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks! I milked out just a little bit to help them latch on better and to relieve mama some. Thinking that maybe tonight before bed I will put her on the milkstand (she's eager to get out of the kidding stall anyway) and milk her out and bottle feed the kids just to make sure they get a good meal before bedtime. 

I am having a couple of kid issues, but that will be another post...


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## Haglerfarm (Aug 11, 2008)

Congratulations on your kids.
The parrot mouth kid will probably do just fine.
In all the years of having goats I have only had 2, thankfully. And one was this year, although hers in not bad.
Just one of those things that happen, may not happen again, even with the same breeding.
Enjoy the babies, they sound cute,
Les


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

Congratulations! They are finally here!!!


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Glad your kids are doing well 

Oh, and I had a parrot-mouthed buckling a few years back and he tasted great!


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Congrats!!

Just want to say...I also bred half-siblings last fall (same sire) and beautiful kids!! Unfortunately they were buck kids, but very correct even at 4 weeks.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Things just seem to be getting better and easier. Had a very good little barn visit just now. I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Just need to hit the hay so I can be back out in about 3 hours... This is probably good training for me. I get so discouraged w/nursing my own kids. Maybe if I've just been a successful "Goat Lactation Consultant" twice over before having my own, I'll be encouraged to stick it out myself through the really tough phase.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Practice makes perfect, the more we do it, the easier it gets. Hang in there!


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