# udder skin flakes



## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Pregnant doe, day 142 today, starting her pre-kidding shave last night, there was a lot of skin flakes coming off the udder while clipping.

This is the doe that had the Staph aureus on drying up, my husband's fav doe, the closest one to "pet" as far as the level of care and attention she gets.

She does also have some skin flakes along her spine also (goat lice?), much less than last year, she's the only one in the herd. They are tiny flakes compared to these udder ones are 10x larger, you can see my fingernail in the pic corner for scale, vs the spine flakes are almost powdery.

Fecal 2 weeks ago was again so clean that vet asked for retest. Retest on Fri also squeaky clean, so she's not dealing with parasite load other than the lice, and its really very mild case, I have to go digging in there to find evidence.

I don't see pustules on the udder like when she had the staph, but some of these udder skin flakes kind of peel off in sheets like they might be dried scabby. But if that was the case, I'd see some of the pustules too right? Or could her immune system have suddenly rallied with impending kidding and just the scabby flakes are left?

Other info: she does have some black hair turning rusty/light, she needs more copper. About 2 weeks ago, I started getting her to eat a known quantity of Sweetlix 16:8 Meatmaker daily by mixing it with yeast and some damp beer barley since she's not apparently eating it free choice like the others do. The rest of the herd looks good. Could that have boosted her immune system enough to change the pustules to scabs or is worrying about it being more staph just a red herring?

We do have an environmental staph issue here. All the beaten down rescue Dalmatians around here have the pustules and that's the first order of biz to get them on healthy food and immune system up, then they clear up and are fine. My other current milker has been testing off and on for the past couple of months for super low levels of dectable non-aureus staph with some "enhanced" technique that the lab guy says is "not a problem yet" but rather "a heads up" so this is an issue here but I don't want my paranoia about that to lead me off track if these flakes are really something else.

Thoughts?

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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Lacia, 

I am no expert but the flakes look exactly like what we see here - dirt from all the winter coming off the udder and the flakes on the spine. During winter their coats seem to be dry and rough, not optimal condition, and now with the sun and warm weather, everyone is shedding and you see more of the flakes. To me that actually means the skin is recovering and imroving. The scabs flaked off and are now coming off - on a dark goat they are quite visible. 

I see the same udder flaking on a doe that has dark skin, and I don't think it's anything but dirt and grease they accumulated all winter long lying in mud and who knows what else. I am looking forward to shave my girls, give them some more BOSS and zinc supplement to improve the condition of their skin/hair but it really seems to improve very quickly once they are on all day browse and they are getting the minerals/vitamins they need. The coats turn shiny like silk, the flaking is gone and everyone looks healthy. 

I hope someone else will chime in to put your mind at least, but I don't think you have staph or any disease problem, just skin recovering from a harsh winter. Check the spine well for lice just in case, even though my new doe with lice is showing the same flaking as the ones who don't have any external parasites. 

ARe you planning to shave everyone soon?

Jana


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks Jana!

I guess I wouldn't have noticed this on others as I didn't notice on her with normal inspection, until I started clipping her, so I'll check the others more carefully. She seems to be my canary in the the coal mine doe however, and alerts me with symptoms before anyone else. When I got her she had the rusty/light on black hair copper defiency signs and I don't think she's ever gotten totally caught up like the others have, and therefore doesn't have as strong of resistance.

Shave everyone? Like show haircuts? Not unless I need to. Udder & kidding clips are it for us so far. Our summers are so nice and cool, with cool eves that require a light jacket for us, so clipping is not necessary for heat like what I think is your frame of reference. I don't know anyone who clips except for kidding or show around here.

Or are you just saying it to lessen the spring shedding mess? What, you don't like the month plus of moth-eaten sweater dredlocks look? :rofl :crazy

Either way, last monday we had snow flurries, we had frost last night, daylight hours increasing might be triggering them to start their shedding mess but I wouldn't want to shave them clean yet unless there's some other reason I'm totally clueless about...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

How much fat is in her diet? I feed fat so when the girls are shaved off in april they will have super good skin under all that winter ick. So your mineral has enough copper in it and not just sulfate that you aren't copper bolusing? She will go to her minerals when she needs them for her salt cravings, so adding them to her grain isn't needed unless you aren't bolusing. Seeing coat and hair changes during late spring and summer is one thing, critiquing nasty old winter hair that is going to shed out soon, especially if your does have lice, isn't something you critique for copper issues. If you minerals only contain sulfate, upping the amount is just spinning your wheels, in fact numbers up in the 1000's of ppms of copper sulfate is harmful to the rumen. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

fat could be an issue, I started adding BOSS a couple weeks ago as I started up her grain towards milking again. What's other good fat for them?

Suddenly half of them are starting that ratty old sweater look this weekend, and with a little powdery dandruff, when they really looked good just days ago... so yes, its figuring out what is normal ratty spring coat, is that why some of you in warmer places just shave them and get it out of the way?

But no one else has their black hair turning rusty and pale color along the spine line starting just above her tail, and the long hairs just below her pin bones.

Yes, the Sweetlix Meatmaker only list Cu sulfate. :sigh Now there's something wrong with the mineral that everyone here says is great?

Remember that other thread about posts haunting us? LOL, I found your Techmaster label post at http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=257500 and it says it has Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Oxide. That post is from 2002 and started about Onyx minerals which it looks like you prefer at that time? It lists Copper Amino Acid Complex, whatever that is... and "animal fat" which is a little worrisome.

I called the 5 feed stores closest to me, none of them have ever heard of either Bluebonnet Techmaster or Onyx mineral supplement anyway. Probably available online where shipping is as much as the product... :sigh

Googling "goat copper absorption, sulfate, oxide" gets a lot of cattle articles, lol, and the big Saandendoah article http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html, with more cattle links, lol :bang :bang :bang


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I know alot of her clickable links on her site are down, so you miss so much of the info, we couldn't fix them when we copied them for here either, but it's worth the study. Figure it's one of our only real goat info, done on thousands of goats by a goat gal.

A lot of excellent marketing went on for Sweet Lix by boer goat folks, it doesn't make it any better than the cheap copper sulfate cattle minerals at your local feed store that is 1/4 the price. Paying those prices for copper sulfate, iron and molassas doesn't make it good. Most feed something, there goats look good, so it's working  I feed Techmaster for alot more than the copper though, since I bolus the copper is secondary now, with chealted minerals, to the kelp, yeast and horse products in it not found in most minerals, and for what is not in it, iron. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

true you do still bolus with the TechMaster?

ok, fat, maybe that's easier, lol... what "good" fats do you feed besides BOSS?


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Lacia google Techmaster Plus. Should give you direct access to the manufactor. Onyx is a Cargill mineral. They have several to choose from. Hope this helps a bit. I haven't found BlueBonnet around here. Tam


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Corn, Boss, rice bran hulls, tons of fats to use. Last year I used bakery products, problem was I got fatter than the goats  This year I used rice bran hulls it was a lot cheaper than BOSS, and I lost weight!

I was able to go for several years with just the minerals, my liver biopsy was above normal. Then something happened, no idea what, as we now have snails, liverflukes and lungworms and we also have to bolus and use the minerals to keep the milkers numbers above normal. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Corn, Boss, rice bran hulls, tons of fats to use. Last year I used bakery products, problem was I got fatter than the goats  This year I used rice bran hulls it was a lot cheaper than BOSS, and I lost weight!
> 
> ...snails, liverflukes and lungworms...


LOL, a TX equivalent of Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my! :rofl

ok, yes, I'm going off the deep end here trying to do things RIGHT. Then living happily ever after and the goats go back to just being fun, eh? :rofl

Bakery products... meaning you were feeding them croissants? At least the stale ones you didn't eat :rofl 
Ok, I don't eat that stuff, I find it hard to believe that hydrogenated oils are any healthier for them than us. That's part of why I got dairy goats out my kitchen door, so I could have HEALTHY natural fat, not Frankenfood :biggrin

Corn, hmmm... I did go from COB to just a barley oats mix for a few bags, the organic corn wasn't available.

Rice bran hulls, sounds like just fiber, that has fat in it? I've not seen it on our feed stores price lists, but I'll ask. Or maybe not after finding this... "Rice hulls are bulky and loose and even when ground are very indigestible. Rice hulls are usually used as a carrier in some mineral and feed premixes. Rice bran is the outer layer of the rice kernel removed during the polishing process in rice milling and contains broken bits of rice, bran, and rice germ as well as starch removed during the abrasive polishing process. Rice bran quality can easily be determined by measuring fatty acid content. Rice bran contains a lipase which is activated upon exposure of the germ and bran to air and unless deactivated by heat and moisture will quickly turn the fat present rancid, resulting in an unpalatable feed. Modern mills stabilize the bran after milling by putting it through an expander. The free fatty acid level of stabilized rice bran should not exceed 4%. Some mills also remove the fat which, while increasing the shelf life and palatability, decreases the energy value of rice bran. Defatted rice bran should have a protein content not less than 14% and fiber content not exceeding 14%. Rice bran should not have a fiber content above 13%. Rice mill feed is a combination of rice bran and rice hulls."

Maybe if the processing mills are fairly close and you can get it reasonably fresh. Like we have a local producer of organic canola oil nearby, its grown in the county north of us, pressed a half hour drive away, and available immediately for pick up. In that case, its a protein meal, they took the oil out.

What about some olive oil in her grain? Is that healthy oil for them? How much? That reminds me, she's been getting 1/8 cup maybe of fresh ground organic peanut butter, so there's some fat. LOL, someone recently said if they come back to this life someday as an animal, they want to live at my house :rofl

I started a lot of BOSS seedlings recently, but my husband torn up most of them today cuz "these things were coming up all over the place!" :rofl :rofl :rofl


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

For my goat, seemed it was copper that did this. Her bolus ran out and she had this. I bolused her and brushed the udder daily and they didn't come back. Sweetlix didn't cut it for me copper-wise.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes it is local to us, the elevator is just south of us. Rice bran is in pellets here, you can feel the fat in them, but like BOSS or corn (well except BOSS makes an excellent edition to kids feed) most fat is fed during pregnancy and end of lactation which is winter here. Rice bran is found in most feeds as fat down here. And yes croissants, donuts, bread, including organic, no sugar and whole wheat breads...your not going to find organic feeds in Texas unless they are trucked in and paying that kind of money for grain would put me out of business. I feed it during my dry period, because disclosing that during lactation, nobody would buy the milk  Bakery products is an ingredient in a very popular lactation pellet though  I have a hard enough time just not feeding byproducts. Plus you are right back to taking someones word for something and charging you twice as much, no thanks. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

I hear you on the difficulty of verifying feed sources! We are lucky to have one truly local store that the owner is in every day and refuses to buy from brokers, only local/regional producers, and seems to really make a huge effort to verify things. Yes, the selection and quality varies, but I feel pretty confident in what I'm getting there.

And your customers have to trust you too, lol. Especially if the milk has that extra buttery quality :rofl

Could I stay in business if I was running a dairy and keep to the ethics I'm trying to do? Probably not, but some are around here. They find niche markets, raw milk at the Farmer's Markets, artisanal local cheese and partnerships with our abundant and fabulous microbrewries. I think we as a region embrace real foodies and small goat dairies can do well here differently than the rest of the country.

I'm on the Board of a Co-op that started as a buying club JUST to get organic feed for our food producing animals, and know where our food comes from. We've grown to over 400 members in just over 2 years! So there's a big enough pool of demand here that would be hard to replicate other places.

Regional food is great, so if you have rice processors there, that's a good source for you. 

What am I missing in you saying "most fat is fed during pregnancy and the end of lactation"? Wouldn't a lot of fat during pregnancy just make big kids?


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<<most fat is fed during pregnancy and the end of lactation>>

I think Vicki is referring to conditioning the girls for kidding. To make sure that FF and heavy milkers do have a little extra over their ribs to milk off when they start lactating, otherwise we have the "how do I put weight on my milker" situation later  She said the key is to start them on the grain/fat slowly at 100 days bred and incrase the ration gradually.

My concern was also big kids but it makes sense that the does need energy to grow the kids to normal size over the last 100 days. I guess not overdoing it is the key. I find it a little bit of a science to find the right balance and believe that it will be easier once I have does here for several years and I know their kidding history, lacation history, how their condition holds up over time during lactatation, who needs more, who needs less, who tends to get fat, etc. I have one that I need to pack a bit of weight on and I am achieving that but monitoring her daily and adjusting the grain ration accordingly. I definitely feed the girls individually to make sure each one is fed according to her specific needs. Again, it's a big of a science to me, maybe there is not this much to it but I am trying to do it right.

I think you and I are in the same boat, we have the info and the help here and the research but not enough hands on and years of experience to actually see what works, what doesn't and how to go about that. I don't freak out about things now as much as I used to at the beginning as I know what some things look like and can correctly diagnose, even though there are still many I haven't seen in person, only in descriptions and pictures.

Have fun tweaking your management, I know exactly what you mean, ha !!

Jana


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks Jana!

I think you're right about stage where we know enough to know a lot about what we don't know :rofl 

And I want ANSWERS, ehhehhehehee

I still hope Vicki clarifies about this "feed most fat at end of pregnancy" and if its how one can put weight on the doe and not the kids. It seems to me like the best time to get weight on the doe might be before breeding (not too much then!), and during early pregnancy, when the kids aren't just growing bigger and some excess calories can go to the doe.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

But the does are lactating before breeding and in the early stage of prengnacy. I posted a thread exactly on this subject, the does need to get conditioned during the dry period. 

Jana


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,13067.msg140198.html#msg140198


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I up the fat so not only are the girls getting better nutrition the end of lactation and heavy bred, but because if you don't increase fat during pregnancy the girls shave off in the early spring with horrible skin. I simply can't afford to use BOSS, and you aren't upping the fat with a few tablespoons of BOSS. I have used oils before, but there is a fine line with them between too much and just right, and too much gives you dog poop. Having sunflower oil here for soap, I chose to use it. The rice bran pellets are just convienent the girls really like them and it was much less messy than oil.

I did have some big kids out of Mr. G this year, but honestly I have never worried about kid size and don't believe you can cause it with grain. What too much grain does is get your does out of condition to kid out eaisly. Most of my kids born are in the 5 pound range, there just happens to be a lot of them in the litter, which is what I prefer. I can honestly say, I don't even think about kid size in my herd. This year breeding the mini's to a full sized buck was the first time since we had a LaMancha bloodline that through crazy big kids I worried about the does physically being able to have, genetics not feed. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

great stuff, thanks Jana & Vicki.
its great when I *like* the answers :LOL and they make sense to me

yucky skin is certainly true with this doe, this time, although when I got it totally shaved, it wasn't as bad as the first bit seemed. I need to look over the other late pregnancy doe more carefully to see if this is late winter/preg crud is widespread , but she's the 75% ND and easy keeper is a major understatement! I worry about her being in too good of condition more. She's starting to get that special "ottoman" quality to her :lol :/

how much is BOSS down there? You have the weather to grow them easily, although they do need water. 

what did the MM kids with pb LM sire weigh this year? Since Nubians often have higher multiples, they are often smaller than other breeds I assume?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

A 3rd generation had a 4 pound buckling and 3 triplet doelings that were just over 2 pounds each. 4, 3 and 4 pound kids out of Petrie, Amy is a 1st generation and had 2 big 6 pound doelings. No matter how many were in the liter or who they came out of Mr. G's kids outweighed Nic and Ge's kids by a few pounds each. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

so 2 lbs to 6 lbs, is the range for MM's with the same pb LM sire this time?

kids from 1st gen larger than from 3rd gen, even tho' these kids all go back to 1st gen.
interesting to wonder if smaller 1st gen kids that are from 3rd gen dam, will wind up smaller and have smaller kids, than the 1st gen kids from 1st gen dam... it would stand to reason.

Triplets weight total for each whole pregnancy= 8-9ish lbs, twins 12 lbs

you still have one MM to kid, right?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes but I am pretty certain it is a cloudburst, very pregnant no milk. Inca is a very good milker, no reason for her not to be uddered up except there are no kids, just fluid.

I specifically chose the buck out of 4 they had that are equally as nice, because he throws smaller kids. The one I would have liked to have used throws larger kids in their LaManchas, so it was the perfect pick. One of their daughters is the buck girl, only taking care of them, so it was cool having her help me pick the right buck to use, and she did. vicki


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