# Iron injections? Goat Fainted!



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Ok, I injected a goat with iron and B complex this spring, and she had an anaphlaxtic reaction, so I've been afraid to use the stuff since. But I have a little Nubian doeling I bought this summer (most expensive goat on the place of course) who is just not coming along. It seems like it is one step forward two back with her. She had tapes, she's anemic... Coat rough, improving with copper, but still anemic. So I decided it was time to go to the injections and try to get her over the hump. I just injected her with iron only, from the same bottle, and she dropped almost immediately!! I revived her. It was like she fainted. Could my bottle of iron be bad? Or is it just a random coincidence? Now what do I do? She's had several rounds of cydectin and a round of safeguard. I'm going to try to do a fecal and look for liver flukes. It's been so dry, can it be that?

Edited to add - the rest of the herd has been holding their own. The doeling I bought with this one was a few months older and is in great shape. This one is underweight. I'll have to wait to breed her. I noticed on her papers the breeder wrote brown and black with white spots, but I believe she is supposed to be black with white spots, brown trim. After copper the brown scruffy hair is falling out, and she's turning black. Diet is alfalfa pellets (17%), race horse oats (small amount), soaked beet pulp, and coastal grass hay. She tested negative for CAE and came from a closed well run herd. I'd really like to see the anemia resolved and weight put on her. I'm going to be moving her and that will be a stressor. Am I missing something? I didn't do any coccidia treatment as she was an older kid when I got her mid-June. Was that a mistake? Could she be selenium deficient as well?

We had snotty noses and cough when the fires where in the area. I gave everyone Duramycin, and they are fine now. Been giving probiotics. With beet pulp and increased alfalfa pellets, everyone is getting chubby but this one. Would appreciate any advice. She's from a Pruittville buck, and I'd really like to have those genetics in my line of minis.


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## Kenneth F. (Sep 15, 2011)

*Re: Iron injections?*

What about Red Cell and Nutri-drench they have worked well for me with a goat not coming around after having parasites

Kenneth Flippen


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Hmm, I've never had problems with using injectable iron on my goats. It might be as you said, a bad bottle.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Iron is cheap enough that if it were me I'd just toss it and replace it... but maybe someone will have a better answer for you.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Anaphylactic shock can occur from any injection no matter what the substance is you are injecting.
It is advisable to have a syringe of epinephrine pulled up and within reach because death follows swiftly if the cardiovascular collapse is complete enough. I read a study a long time ago where the researchers were trying to confirm their idea that it was the shock of receiving an injection and not what the injection contained that caused the immediate collapse whereas the animals with delayed response were actually responding to an allergen. It has since been decided it is hypersensitivity allergic reaction but it seems odd since it is often only a few heartbeats until they are on the ground in serious distress. One has to wonder how any of the injected material moved to any viable transport so quickly. It is a fascinating subject.

Did you give the injection IM?

Regardless- please don't expect a few iron shots to reverse this condition. Recovering from anemia is a very slow complex process particularly in an animal with a damaged gut. If she was tapewormy to the point of anemia it is likely she also has cocci damage so this will slow recovery as well. I would get her some yeast for constant feed of b vits daily and let her eat 2 to 3 oz each time you feed her. I would also bolus her because giving a dose of copper sulfate daily can be upsetting her rumen function and actually burning tender tissues. I also know that too much copper too often will compete with other minerals for absorption and mess with the assimilation of other nutrients most certainly vitamin C and there are studies saying copper causes iron and manganese deficiency in some cases where it is not being utilized properly. Maybe do some reading on mineral bio-availability. It's a tough juggling act particularly with impaired digestion which makes kid care our most important job!

You will be hard pressed to see liver flukes. First they have to be in just the right stage and you have to get very lucky with your sample. They are not like HC which lays eggs copiously. We have done tons of fecals over the years and found *one* larvae* one *time even tho I know it has been an issue in the herds we do fecaling for.

Keep working with her if you like her genetics but don't expect a quick turnaround. And yes the move will be another setback so you will have to be extra vigilant with anyone who has issues under normal home conditions to be sure they don't suffer more distress.
Lee


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I should mention that copper and Iron are antagonists in both directions- one is not more prone to block the other. They compete for the same 'chaperone' proteins that transport them from the intestinal wall to plasma. So an abundance of one will make the other unavailable.
L


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Also, I remember you saying you are using copper sulfate as a top dressing and although you may see some improvement with it, if that is the only copper supplement you are giving, you are not going to get the dramatic wonderful results that copper oxide particles will give.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Thank you Lee, great info! The doe that dropped in the spring had a very delayed reaction. I was already in another pen and she kind of hollered and laid down. This one got weak before I had even finished the injection and then just passed out. I wondered if they could become phobic cause it was just what I do when I have to have a needle in me! The last injection she would have had was that Duramycin which hurts so bad. I had epi ready, but she came around so fast I didn't give it. She just acted like someone who fainted.

We have really acidic soil here which I think accounts for the copper deficiency. It's really good for azaleas and roses, not so good for goats. I bought from 3 different farms and the goats from all 3 had rough coats and even fish tails. It's a good point that she's got limited absorption abilities right now and I'm feeding an abundance of copper and not so much iron then I might not be giving the iron a fighting chance. I'm going to pick up the yeast this afternoon and get her started on that...


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Coccidia may be an issue, even in older goats. When an animal is stressed and its immune system becomes weakened because of it, the parasites will "bloom." I would treat her for coccidia and also be sure that the dewormer you're using is actually working like it's supposed to.

Caroline


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Yeah!! Thanks so much for the help, especially Lee for the yeast suggestion and info about rumen health. I mixed up a treatment of nutritional yeast, wheat germ, kelp with Fir Meadows Kop-Sel in it, baking soda and probiotic powder and top dressed the ration with it. Had to give it to all the girls cause she wouldn't eat by herself. Noticed tonight little girl's eyelids are in the good range now! And she has increased appetite too and appears to be starting to put on weight. I think we are finally on the right track!


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

> I read a study a long time ago where the researchers were trying to confirm their idea that it was the shock of receiving an injection and not what the injection contained that caused the immediate collapse whereas the animals with delayed response were actually responding to an allergen. It has since been decided it is hypersensitivity allergic reaction but it seems odd since it is often only a few heartbeats until they are on the ground in serious distress.


While I tend to lean towards the researcher's first impulse (shock vs. allergy), even if there are cases of a nearly immediate yet true allergic reaction, what happened with Angie's goat does sound like a shock type of reaction, especially considering her nearly immediate recovery with no medical intervention. That just does not sound like anaphylaxis to me.

ETA: And yeah, I would dump that bottle of iron, too, just in case.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I have a seen a full grown buck throw himself on the ground and scream from a subq injection of ivermectin.

First we are using iorn shots that nobody can tell you how they work in the goat, how much is needed, if it even does anything...what is the carrier, is it like LA200 that actually works by necrosing (mushing up/dissolving) the muscle in the shot site so it gets into the blood stream faster? That is the problem with, give them iron injections or give them red cell orally...not a shred of eveidence that any of it works.

The only thing that moved a does eye membrane color from poor to better is food and water and time.....and the kill off of the adult worms that were sucking her blood, from the Cydectin.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

That's how Duramycin works? I gave it subQ, and one of the does got a golf ball size knot. They all acted like it was horribly painful. Geesh...

I think the B vitamins in the yeast were probably the most helpful. I'm going to keep that up for awhile.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No, I said LA200. Duramycin and most of the other 200mg tetracyclines are not made with a sting carrier like LA200 is. And all OTC antibiotics should be given subq, you should not get a knot with an antibiotic subq make sure and clean the skin before giving shots. Vicki


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

When I was at the feed store, I was thinking Tylan was the one that stung, so I was going to get LA200. Then I saw the Duramycin was the exact same medicine as LA200 but cheaper so I bought that. I gave it to the whole herd and every single one cried and carried on, stamping feet, and a couple laid down. I don't think I'll reach for it as a first choice.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> ...you should get a knot with an antibiotic subq...


"should" really or should "not" ?

I had to give LA200 this summer for a pneumonia case, I'd really rather boost immune responses than use antibiotics, its done wonders for me with the horrible ear/sinus/respiratory infections I got for years. But her temp went up very fast within just a few hours to 105.7 with rapid shallow breathing, not eating or drinking, so I gave the LA200. Got a big knot. Wasn't happy with that!

But I was happy with her getting better as fast as she did.

Vet said something about the Pfizer brand of LA200 being the best, has less sting than the others.

:LOL my notes are still written on the granola bar box I grabbed to write on... vets always call back at inconvenient moments it seems, I think I was in car, just bought stuff and that box had the most "white" space on it... I need to transcribe them into my file notes one of these days...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry should not get a shot site with an OTC antibiotic. I will change that..

Maybe the next trip to the vet or the vet out for a visit, some need a basic lesson on how to give a good subq shot and how to give a good IM shot, while you are at it learn how to do muscle shots in the neck. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

That's why I was asking. I've given hundreds to thousands of injections growing up on farm and working in pet rescue since living in city, and I never remember getting a knot like that, rarely getting any, which is why I wasn't happy and why I was so surprised that the post initially said "should". Now it correctly says "should not" so later readers will have to read thru to figure out the continuity, LOL...

Vet said knots sometimes happens, no biggie, that's its more likely with LA200 than others fwiw... but I'm still not happy with it.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

It's been our experience that all tetracyclines (Bio-Mycin is our tetracycline of choice these days) leave a shot-site swelling that dissipates within a week or two. You can speed up the process by putting DMSO on the area a couple of times a day. We also give Nu-Flor sub-q and have had shot-site swellings with this drug as well. And we now give (and have done so for a couple of years) Banamine by mouth, rather than by intramuscular injection.

Caroline


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