# Flushing a doe?



## Guest (May 29, 2008)

I will show my ignorance now... :blush

What does it mean to "flush" a doe for prebreeding? What does it accomplish? How do you do it? 

Thank you.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

If you use Sue Reith's protacal written in the hypocalcimia article there is no need for flushing. use your BoSE 30 days prior to breeding on both your does and the bucks being used.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

It's actually a term used in sheep and works to some extent in goats. It's uping the feed/protein about 30-45 days pre-breeding to cause the ewes and does to start on a gaining plane. It's said to help with ovulation and more multiple births. 
I just rely on Bo-Se and worming (and little hocous pocous in the repro dept.)...because usually by breeding season, I'm trying to keep the does from getting too fat going into the dry period.
Kaye


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Won't PG 600 also increase ovulation without the risk of overfeeding? Just a thought. I don't know.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

BoSE is a vitamin/mineral 
PG 600 is a hormone I think will have to go back and read. 
OK guess it isn't a hormone



> P.G. 600, a non-prescription drug marketed by Intervet America Inc. (Millsboro, DE), is used to stimulate the onset of heat and ovulation in prepubertal gilts and weaned sows and thus can decrease NPDs. Each 5-ml dose of P.G. 600 contains 400 I.U. of pregnant mare serum gonadotropin (PMSG) and 200 I.U. of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG). P.G. 600 can be purchased in single (approximately $5.00) or five dose (approximately $24.00) vials. The active ingredients in P.G. 600 are purchased as a freeze-dried powder that is mixed in a sterile diluent prior to use. P.G. 600 is labeled for intramuscular (i.m.) injection in the neck behind the ear. Knox et al. (2000), however, reported a higher proportion of gilts exhibited heat with subcutaneous (s.c.) P.G. 600 (76%) than with i.m. P.G. 600 (52%).


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

That is interesting. Thank you Sondra. It leads me to another question though. 

" ...is used to stimulate the onset of heat and ovulation in prepubertal gilts and weaned sows..."

Will this, or might it cause an out-of-season heat and ovulation to occur in goats? Or does this only apply to swine? 

Thanks.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I don't know all I know is what is 101 regarding it's use with cidr's haven't heard of anyone using it with goats by it's self


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Okay. Thank you.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

LOL....yes, Sondra, you're right...it is a hormone.
Ummmm....that one's still up for debate! I was told in short order (kinda' snippy by a know it all) that there's nothing in it to increase ovulation...but, funny thing to me that with it's use, people are getting more multiples.??

I don't like to suggest using it by it's self just to get multiples. I use it with AI and other things to get settles. Usually when I only have one straw of semen and REALLY want it to work.
Kaye


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

That makes sense. Thanks Kaye.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well darn I thought it was but then reading that, that I quoted decided it wasn't horse serum and all that stuff


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:biggrin PMSG & hCG are both hormones. 


> Will this, or might it cause an out-of-season heat and ovulation to occur in goats? Or does this only apply to swine?


My suggestion....read everything you can find on the use of hormones in goats (seasonal breeders) before you start messing with hormones. You can screw up your does cycles BIG TIME by not knowing how to use, when to use and at what doses. Repro is a fascinating subject and has had quite a bit of research done on seasonal breeders.

There is progesterone to consider, estrogen, light effect, and it goes on and on. 
Kaye


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

I am certainly not going to mess with this until I learn much more...probably not at all. My questions were spurned on by my desire to "know". Thank you for the info you have already provided. I find it fascinating.  

You mentioned "light effect"... Did you mean the length of daylight in a day? Does this have a direct correlation to the "seasonal" breeders ability to go into estrus? Like chickens laying fewer eggs when the days are shorter, type of thing?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I know when you are young and new you do have a tendancy to think that you are invinceable and know all. The truth is flying by the seat of your pants can ruin your goats when you are talking reproduction.

The use of PG600 should be done only after you completely understand what it is and how it works and you use a dose that someone you trust uses. Having 6 kids that there is no way a new person could keep alive isn't a good outcome and will happen if you give even the smallest amount more than recommended. You figure that it is used to multiply by 2 gilts liters. This may be fine in some goats, I loved it when Shoofly had 2 kids instead of 1  But you give this to a first freshener and you will have tiny little kids born. Give this to a doe with quads in her bloodline and you will likely have abortions or a very ill doe come 100 days bred. I am not saying all this to be mean I am saying all this to scare the crap out of new folks.

No PG600 doesn't have anything in it to give you out of season breedings, the doe must be in heat, naturally or artifically, then yes it will force ovulation.

And please don't go thinking you are now going to prove me wrong by doing it anyway  vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Guess using it on your new MM wasn't a good idea then Vicki she had quads last year. 









:rofl :rofl just kidding.


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

No worries there Vicki.  Your warning should and WILL be heeded. Thank you! I would like to know more about it though. I find it very interesting.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

You need to learn about normal reproduction in dairy goats ( different breeds=different cycles=different timings) before you try repro. manipulations. It also helps to have the knowledge on how to fix problems that might arise. Different drugs for different uses, for different problems.

I am not even going into the mini breeds...I don't work well in small mouth fruit jars!!! Arrgghh!
Kaye


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:really Besides, my brain works by seasons...and it's STILL KIDDING season here! Waiting on one more to kid! 
Kaye


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Thank you Kaye. I do wonder though if I can get some CIDR's for this fall or next year to "time" them. Will CIDR's last that long? (Don't worry. I will NOT use them until I know EXACTLY what I am doing.  Maybe not even then. I have not yet decided. With them so hard to get though, I figured it would be good to have a few on hand for when and IF I do decide to use them.)


...And I would love to learn ALL I can on the normal reproductions of dairy goats. Especially Alpines as that is what I have. Are there any good links that you know of that can give me indepth information on the subject? I would like to know more than just the basics. 

......I only had one doe kid this year, Kaye. :lol That was seven weeks ago. I am already thinking ahead to next season and beyond.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sondra, how many goats have you kidded out? That's the difference  Making collars right now  vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

LOL...how many you been in ~OVER THE PHONE~ this year, Vicki?? :rofl

There's a real good article that Tracy put up in Goat Keeping 101...may have to work your way back several pages. By Biogentics, several on light manipulation by Langston & N.Mexico U. then there's always the...read and follow our posts during breeding season. We generally field several a year with problem does. 
Kaye


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Thank you Kaye.


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## Guest (May 29, 2008)

If you want out of season breeders the best way to go about it is really with Lights. That is the proven method to get good results. Most will breed about 60 to 75% on an average year. But, you must light treat your bucks also. The heats will be light heats, rarely any movement. SO, that means that you need to pen breed. 

The set back on out of season breeders, yearlings will be 18 months old when they kid in. Older does might have a time at dry off to go over to the fall kidding. Also, there is really not a market for fall kids unless you have a number that can be sold to a commerical dairy. Since, there are no classes really for fall born kids. 

The does also dont milk as much as they do if they kid in the spring. Since they base their milk on the seasons. If fool them for awhile thinking it fall when they are bred, but if you dont keep up the lights then they know its winter a month into lacation.

ken in MO


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Very interesting Ken. Thank you.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Vicki I bred 20 does this year alone. had goats for 10 years now. Have never used Pg 600 or cidrs and have had fall freshenings and spring and winter. The best IMO is KNOW YOUR DOES know they are in excellet health and body condition and HAND breed or AI now if I AI'd then I might consider using CIRD's and hormones. Otherwise I say don't mess with hormones.


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

I have learned from all of your comments here and elsewhere that there is no substitute (in a regular-cycling doe) for excellent management for ovulation and maybe even multiples to take place. CIDR's, PG 600, etc are "extras" that do not HAVE to be used. Is that about right? 

Knowing more about these and other techniques are of great interest to me though. Very curious to learn more. Thanks everyone.


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Kim , I have decided you have OCD and need to get a job or anyother hobby to take up some of your time . :rofl


Patty


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Okay... I have to ask. What is OCD? :rofl


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder  You can't have goats and not have a little OCD  Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

UMM thought that was a requirement to having goats


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

A little is one thing but .....

Think if she is this bad with us what the heck her poor Hubby is going thru..

Kims Hubby dreams of a world with no goat {hehhe}

I am being OCD about one of mine due to freshen , we all have are moments


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I know I drove my first mentor insane also. I used to come over at chore time and help her, problem was she wanted to go back in the house and watch her 'shows' and smoke, I wanted to stay in the barn and talk more about the goats  Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

all I can say is it is a good thing I am not down close to Vicki or she wouldn't even have me on this board.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't know someone who milks half my goats or clean baby pens while she HAD to talk to me? I would think it would be welcomed! Vicki


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Patty13637 said:


> A little is one thing but .....
> 
> Think if she is this bad with us what the heck her poor Hubby is going thru..
> 
> ...


Actually it is our anniversary today and guess what my hubby bought for me!? Two bucklings. Yup! He does not know anything about goats but I think he is just as hooked. Too bad they weren't doelings. :rofl. They are beautiful though. Anyone want to buy one? He bought two so the one I'll keep won't be lonely while he is in isolation from the herd. LOL I'm glad they were not very expensive. They were from a backyarder that had a buckling year.

YUP... I guess I am OCD about goats! LOL :rofl I can't help it.


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## Guest (May 30, 2008)

I know where you are at Kim. I have this insatiable desire to know also. Find good websites that are reliable. I have even asked the vet about old vet books. He won't give me one nor sell me one but he will let me read it while I'm in there waiting. My favorite saying is "Information is the highway to life, expand your life.". So I do understand. I'm always looking things up and asking questions. I'm sure that I drive people nuts with my questions but I NEED to know. Most of everything I have learned I'll never do or use in my life but there may be a time I could use that information. My most favorite class that I ever took was in college was Biological Behaviors in Psychology. I drooled over that info so much! Right now my major topic is on soil composition and may I tell you that is one heck of a subject with so many different variables that it only leads to more questions. I don't think I know anymore about it now than when I started. UGH!Tammy


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Tammy.... :lol I'm glad I'm not the only one. 

Keep learning!....Always learn!


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

these are the best articles, the adv repro one in from the link in 101 that Kaye mentioned.

http://www2.luresext.edu/goats/training/reproduction.html

http://www.luresext.edu/goats/training/advrepro.html


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

:thankyou I appreciate the links.


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