# A WARNING to all new folks! CAE testing



## Legend Hills

I could tell you the whole sad story but I'll just stick with the warning and try not to cry. I've known now for a couple weeks but have been in shock and denial for some time. I am only now able to post this openly. Please do not read it and then dismiss it. That is what I did and now I'm very sorry.

Please TEST for CAE! Do not delay!

Do not buy any goats from anyone without seeing the reports with your own eyes. Never 'rescue' and animal and think it is okay. And do NOT feed your 'okay' rescue goat's milk to your kids because she has lots of milk. TEST! 
I did all the wrong things and now I'm paying the price. ALL of my girls (3 two-year olds) have CAE. My whether (son of 'rescue' goat) also had CAE. He was given to someone for their barbeque last week. It hurts as they are my four-legged kids. But I need to send them off and have a clean start. If my two pregnant girls only have boys, looks like I'll be goat-less. I have not yet tested the two bucks. I'll do them soon. My life dream of having goats has been devestated because I did not test and I made the wrong decisions thinking I was doing the right thing. My inexperience and disregard for the advice of others has led to great heartache.

_Please_ heed my warning. Don't let this happen to you.

http://www.biotracking.com/goats


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

P.S. All of the kids from my two pregnant ones will be pulled and given Colostrum replacer (Jeffers) and pasteurized milk. They will never come in contact with their dams again. I am monitoring them 24/7 with a barn camera.


----------



## DostThouHaveMilk

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Kimberly,
I am so sorry this has happened to you. 
I was raised to trust the word of every human being. It is hard to go that extra step and require the papers as proof. It can feel as though we are questioning a person's integrity. A person of integrity will welcome those questions though.
Unfortunately, we sometime learn lessons the hard way. It makes us stronger for it, but can be difficult at the time that it is happening.
Hopefully people just learning will heed your advice and not only ask for papers, but learn to draw and draw for themselves.


----------



## Caprine Beings

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

I am very sorry to hear this Kim . We know your pain very well. I have come on here time and again advocating for CAE testing and will continue to do so because of the same mistake and misplaced trust. Testing is inexpensive and easy to do. It is far easier to test and deal with the issue than to put it off and get very attached...not to mention the monies spent on them through their care.
The handling of positive and negative animals is a lot of work. Milking becomes two separate jobs. Kidding is a hassle. Different housing. Yep for us its a no brainer...we get tested from now on. Our herd is CAE negative tested Jan 2011. We will test again soon since some are going visiting and some are sold. Just a big breather for me to know again before they leave I am sending out clean animals.

If your new...please listen, its very heartbreaking to have gorgeous animals and have to put them down
Tam


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Roseanna - I also feel/felt as if asking for proof might question a person's integrity. I also, for some stupid reason, got it into my head that they would be offended if I even mentioned the possibility of CAE coming from their animal(s). So I kept quiet. That was the worst thing I could have done.

Tam - Thank you for your support and understanding.


----------



## MF-Alpines

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

To say, "I feel your pain" is an understatement, because I truly do. I know it's hard now, but think of what a relief it will be with a clean herd. It's a learning experience, albeit a very expensive and sad one.

Keep your chin up.

Cindy


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Thank you very much Cindy. Having a clean herd is what I am keeping my sights on. It helps.


----------



## Little Moon

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Hugs - I am so sorry this has happened to you. Please know that you are not alone, I too had a positive doe. The very first goat we ever owned was CAE+ we were just like you trusting and unaware. After some difficult choices we now have a clean herd, and I will test every year from here on out. When new goat people purchase animals from me I give them a copy of the results and tell them to NEVER buy a goat from someone that cannot, will not give them paperwork to prove that their animals are CAE- and not to be bashful about asking to see proof.

Sad to say, but others have made this mistake and others will continue to, simply because people out there will not test and will prey on new people.

I am very sorry for your loss.

Anne


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Thank you Anne. All the goats I tested so far have come back +. The only ones I have not tested yet are my two bucks. They will be tested soon. It certainly has been a hard lesson learned. I urge others to not make the same mistake.


----------



## Little Moon

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

The only answer is to educate :sigh ourselves, each other and all others that we talk goats to.

Hugs again,
Anne


----------



## Bernice

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Kim........be strong and it seems you are! You do have options so it's not over yet and one was to have a, "Plan B" and pull the kids and feed Jeffer's colostrum. "When we get lemons make lemonade!" I'm a bit confused, did rescuing a goat bring the CAE in and through exposure and feeding milk cause the rest to contract CAE? Or was it the fact you didn't ask the seller to see proof for the ones you bought too? I'm confused. Be diligent and you can work up to a CAE free herd.


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*



Bernice said:


> Kim........be strong and it seems you are! You do have options so it's not over yet and one was to have a, "Plan B" and pull the kids and feed Jeffer's colostrum. "When we get lemons make lemonade!" I'm a bit confused, did rescuing a goat bring the CAE in and through exposure and feeding milk cause the rest to contract CAE? Or was it the fact you didn't ask the seller to see proof for the ones you bought too? I'm confused. Be diligent and you can work up to a CAE free herd.


..._sob story removed. Too depressing_...

In reality, I don't know where the CAE came from. So I mention both; asking breeders for proof and to be careful of rescues. Which I did neither. I 'saved' the rescue and had her alone for about 10 days or so and her weight improved and she showed no signs of sickness so in my naive, inexperience I placed her with the others (3 years ago).

Yes, my plan B of feeding Jeffers colostrum, which I now have and not letting the kids any where near there, will take effect any day now. The two that are pregnant will freshen soon. I have not lost hope. I'm just very tired of it all.

Good thing we'll be moving to a fresh clean property this summer. It will help... I hope. 
If both my girls only have bucks, I think I'll cry. Please, whoever reads this, don't make the same mistakes I have. It's not worth it.


----------



## goatkid

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Sorry about your goats. I think many of us have had similar experiences. I once bought a doe from a friend who had gotten her dam from an ADGA spotlight sale. She puropsely chose that goat to bid on because the breeder is a member of our goat club and has a reputation for a clean herd. When she freshened, she had a hard udder, so I did have the vet draw blood for a CAE test. I wanted him to send it to WADDL, but he said PAVL was just as reliable. The test came back negative, so I bought another doe and her brother out of the same dam. Then I noticed the dam also had a hard udder and also a sowllen knee, so I had the three goats tested at WADDL and BioTracking. Their tests were positive as well as another doe I bought from my friend who had been the same pen as the positive doe as a kid. My friend is now boarding one of the does and the rest have ben sold for meat. I've gleaned some negative goats out of their offspring. I spoke with the breeder of the spotlight sale goat who insists her herd is negative (others who bought goats from her all have negatove animals) and she said it's likely a rival breeder sabotaged the doe as her test to be in the sale was negative. I really don't know for sure where the CAE came from, but if I pay that woman big bucks for one of her animals, you better bet I want to see test results.


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*



goatkid said:


> Sorry about your goats. I think many of us have had similar experiences. I once bought a doe from a friend who had gotten her dam from an ADGA spotlight sale. She puropsely chose that goat to bid on because the breeder is a member of our goat club and has a reputation for a clean herd. When she freshened, she had a hard udder, so I did have the vet draw blood for a CAE test. I wanted him to send it to WADDL, but he said PAVL was just as reliable. The test came back negative, so I bought another doe and her brother out of the same dam. Then I noticed the dam also had a hard udder and also a sowllen knee, so I had the three goats tested at WADDL and BioTracking. Their tests were positive as well as another doe I bought from my friend who had been the same pen as the positive doe as a kid. My friend is now boarding one of the does and the rest have ben sold for meat. I've gleaned some negative goats out of their offspring. I spoke with the breeder of the spotlight sale goat who insists her herd is negative (others who bought goats from her all have negatove animals) and she said it's likely a rival breeder sabotaged the doe as her test to be in the sale was negative. I really don't know for sure where the CAE came from, but if I pay that woman big bucks for one of her animals, you better bet I want to see test results.


I agree. Test results in hand or no deal. When I have a clean herd again, I would proudly show the results to anyone that asks and would probably show them even for those that don't.


----------



## Candy

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

I feel you pain as well.

We had bought some Nubians that were getting ready to kid. To make a LONG and sad story short, we lost those two after they kidded, to mastitis. I was ready for some more milk so I bought a doe from a man that we are friends with. We had not started testing for CAE and wasn't really concerned even though we new about it. Anywho, I bought this doe and then bred her and she had three beautiful kids, 2 does and 1 buck. We even used her to nurse some of our purchased does. One being my Valentine. I got V at two weeks old and was my first full blood registered LaMancha. I was excited. 
Then we decided to test for CAE. Well, this milk doe was the only one that came back possitive. Then we tested our babies when they were six months old and my little Valentine came back possitive as well. So this year, Valentine decided to breed with our Nigerian Dwarf and delivered 1 doe who we pulled and 1 buck who I regretfully left him with his mother. I was thinking he wouldn't be any use to us so just left him. Then I relize there are people out there looking for mini mancha bucks.  So. I still have Valentine and and plan to breed her to a full blood LaMancha so I can hopefully get another doe off her. I will probably keep her till I do. We have plenty of room here so that isn't a problem.

Now, I don't know what in the world I am going to do with her when I do get a doe off her. She was my son's show goat. He likes her....cry's when I talk of getting rid of her. (He is 7) SO here I am....

Oh, A funny thing...when we bought this milk doe, my friend asked the vet about her swollen knee. He said all swollen knees aren't from CAE that is was probably something else he mentioned. Ha.


----------



## Oat Bucket Farm

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

I am so sorry you are going through this,I understand your pain. We rescued a goat, brought her back to "health", knew we should have tested, didn't, bred her, finally tested when she had less than two months to go before she kidded and her titer was 89.

She developed symptoms and by the end of her pregnancy could barely get up and down. We pulled her daughter the minute she cleared the birth canal and two days later we put her down.

Hard lesson learned. Always buy tested stock. Period.


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Thank you for your experiences. Yes, a very hard lesson learned.


----------



## aching

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Oh Kimberly, I'm so, so sorry. As a "new folk" though I really do appreciate you taking the time to post this as a warning. I know it couldn't have been easy.

Take Care.


----------



## Cotton Eyed Does

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Sorry you are going through this. Think of it like this. If they truly do have a CAE free herd then when they purchased their animals THEY asked those same questions. Do you test for CAE? Do you have a current CAE test that I may see? If they required it to get their CAE Free herd then they should understand you wanting the same reassurance for your CAE herd.

I also think that anyone who sells animals and they KNOW they have CAE animals on their property should disclose this information to potential buyers. Keeping it a secret and not telling someone this info just because they didn't ask is just not right. That old bull about if they don't ask, you don't have to tell is just plain deceitful.


----------



## SherrieC

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Most of my buyers NEVER ask for CAE tests or even mention it. I happily yank out my papers anyway, and play show and tell.
Having gone through the hard work, and yearly testing, I reserve the braggin rights!


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

With biotracking.com emailing you results, CAE results are just an email away, there really is no more excuses.


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Thank you. It wasn't easy. I felt like my herd name is now tainted and I won't have any sales but you know what? I don't care. Sharing this experience and giving a warning is much more important. Honesty is definitely the best way of living even if it does cost you. If others can learn from my mistakes, that makes me feel that everything we went through is worth it. When I have a clean herd again, I will definitely brag too. 

And you are so right Vicki. There is no excuse at all.


----------



## tendermeadowsnigerians

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

If you are honest enough to admit that you had positive goats & are learning from your experiences then dont worry about your herd name being "tainted", if anything you will be known for being honest. I would rather buy from a herd that was honest about their past then a herd that hides those 1 or 2 positive results like the goats were never in their herd.

At least you are learning from the past and making changes for the future, thats what counts right?
I'm sure we had positive goats way back when we first got them, we didnt test no one told us about CAE then. But we went about 8 years with not breeding and every goat we have now was tested before every comming on to our property.


----------



## nitrospeed16

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Kimberly, very sorry for your loss!
Just to add on to some of the pointers on here for new owners who are thinking of purchasing a new goat..
NEVER be worried about offending a breeder. Think of it as similar to those "Carfax" commercials. Nowadays you wouldn't go to a car dealer and buy a used car without doing research would you? Buying a dairy goat is the same type of investment. Is the "risk" of offending someone worth the risk of spending your money, time, and emotions on an animal that may turn out to be sick? Absolutely not. 
A true breeder will have no qualms about showing you the test results. Every goat I sell comes with a "care package", which INCLUDES all health records & a copy of test results. I also should mention that it's a good idea for breeders selling an animal to include the fact that test results & health records were provided to the buyer on the sales contract AND have the buyer sign and date it for your records. I've seen too many people who simply sign the registration transfer section and call it a day. Anyhow, a buyer shouldn't settle for a verbal reassurance that their herd is negative, regardless of how well known that herd is. I was considering purchasing a doe from a "high quality" breeder a while back. Upon asking if he had a copy of the CAE test results, he told me that he had lost them but assured me that his herd was negative. I kept my money and politely left. If that breeder can't keep accurate records of test results, how can you be sure that they aren't lacking in other areas of record keeping & care?? A good doe can run you $400 or more in purchase price alone. Ask yourself if buying a doe at that price with no records is a gamble you are willing to take.
Also, keep this same mindset when using or purchasing bucks for your does. And if you don't have a "closed" herd, make sure you see test results of any buck you are planning to use. Most breeders that offer stud service require that your does be CAE free & neg tested, but don't feel that you can't ask them for the same documentation (you should.). It takes only minutes for someone who is organized to produce a copy of test results. 
So there is my two cents!


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Thank you Nicole. 
Well said Rebecca.


----------



## Anita Martin

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

I love showing results too. If I've gone to the work of pulling blood and sending it off and they come back negative, why in the world would I ever want to hide that? No way. I show whatever recent tests I have on hand, and even give copies.


----------



## Pam V

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

I know what you are going through. It is hard to put them down and, yes, it would be nice if everyone made it a priority to test and be up front. We replaced out CAE doe with another CAE doe....unknowingly until the tests came back when they (three of them) were bred. I was stunned and realized then how wide spread it is.

I know there are people that are trying to be rid of it but there are others that think its no big deal think everyone else thinks its no big deal also...often the same ones that think CL is no big deal. But then they don't disclose it.....so do they really think it is no biggy?

This week I learned that the perrson my Dh and I partly mentored picked up some Boers and now has had absesses. I had given her the info of CL earlier. When asked what her plan was she said, "well its here and I am just going to keep them seperate and deal with it." I told her I would put it down immediately. I won't have it here. 
So sad. Now I don't want her to come over to my place and I don't think she "gets it". After the conversation she said she wants to bring her bucklings over so we can show her how to band them. :0


----------



## Bella Star

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

DONT wether them bucklings for her ! Pam :nooo

Of all the diseases ,CL (giant hard ball size zit that will Pop when ripe ) is the dreaded disease for meat goats as it ruins the meat carcass value !! Gristle has to be cut out and there is meat loss and waste as to location and how many puss staph balls the goat has had ,ALSO ..... those goats carry CL bacteria disease in the soil that's stuck to their hoofs and also their fur has particles that are contaminated , I would never use my tools on her contaminated kids,
heck !!!!!!! Don't even let the woman in the area that your goats are in as she has that contamination on her shoes ! 
Yes,I am paranoid ,as I don't want CL and a good friend would never take a chance on spreading CL to your herd !!
CL can form in the udder and pop and then there is staph in your drinking milk :really
CL spreads thru staph puss on anything it comes in contact with for years ! wood,metal,soil etc.
CAE is transmitted thru milk from doe to kid ,can be contained thru separation and bottle feedings

I am very sorry for your loss but always TEST !!!!


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Just to repeat:

CL is VERY bad news. I call it the black plague of the goat world. 
CAE is not fun, you don't want, it but it is manageable.

The two are not even remotely related. But testing is a must.

Pamela- I would also recommend not having them anywhere near your herd. The lady or her goats.


----------



## Hollybrook

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Kim what do u mean they have CAE? They tested pos or they actually have clinical symptoms?


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

None of them have clinical symptoms. They tested positive through biotracking.


----------



## Pam V

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Kimberly and LInda-
Thanks. I feel like such a meany but, Yes, I can't let her on my place, now. I may find a chance to copy what you have written about meat and udder ruination from CL and find a way to get it to her. She lives about 15 miles or so away and I hope to move to a larger place 20 miles further away this summer(back to my home village). You have strengthened my nerves on making sure that I continue to be bio secure. We have people wear our rubber boots when they come here. Knowing she has CL (though untested even when I tried to convince her to do so) I will bite the rude bullet and let her know my rules for my ground/land.
Thanks. I needed that 

Pam


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

I am very relieved to hear that Pam. I hate being rude but it is not rudeness to protect that which you love and you did give her fair warning and advice, which she has failed to consider. Now, you must do what is hard. I commend you.


----------



## patchofpines

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Hello,
I am really sorry to hear about your situation. I know it must be devastating. I do not sell many goats, but the couple I have sold. I show all my test results to the purchaser. I dont expect them to ask for results. I show them the papers before the transaction is complete. I dont want people to feel embarrassed about asking, and I want to be reputable and upfront.
So Sorry again,
Kim Rabinette
Patch of Pines Farm


----------



## Legend Hills

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Thank you Kim. My only wish now is for others to not make the same mistakes I have.

The update on the situation here is: We'll only keep the two female kids and never breed again. They will be pets only, so says my caring husband who sees me (_in my disabled condition_) buying store-bought milk (_we really can't afford_) to supplement the pasteurized milk that is not enough... testing the temps of which with two separate thermometers, marking the 'done' milk with food coloring, cooling the milk, putting it up in containers, straining it and feeding four kids separately (_without lambar, the girls would starve if I used one_). Getting up at 6am when I normally had to sleep until 9 or 10 just to feel somewhat refreshed to feed and to milk. As of yesterday we are _finally_ down to two feedings a day. Perhaps in a few years we might change our minds about breeding but I kinda doubt it. So my breeding days are over. My dream is done. At least I have my two little girls to love on. That much brings me much joy. 

NOT a sob story, just a lesson learned the hard way that I wish to share. Find joy in your goats but test, test, test. 'Not knowing' doesn't make the bad go away it only delays it from making itself known.

Thanks for all the great comments here and thanks for reading.....and thank you sooo much for testing.

Kim


----------



## Caprine Beings

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

Please remember, this is a fore warning for ALL new folks in the goat world. Testing is a must. Please learn to draw blood responsibly. It is not very hard nor is it very expensive. If you are uncomfortable drawing blood ask your vet to help as an instructor. They are more than willing to help lend a hand. If you have had problems in the past please review your drawing practices. Its as simple as stick, check, and draw. Always use a little pressure AFTER you pull the needle out to allow the hole to coagulate, if not there will be some blood loss. Its just like when YOU go to get your blood drawn and the nurse says "now apply pressure here please".

And now back to the reason of this sticky...
Prevent CAE by testing for it!!!
Tam


----------



## tendermeadowsnigerians

*Re: A WARNING to all new folks!*

:yeahthat


----------



## Bella Star

Yes,This is devastating and a pricey mistake especially after you fall in love with your girls :down
I am one for testing and I am sorry but even tho people say they have a clean herd,I still Retest .. as I want to know and not be just told.
To me CAE is a bad goat disease but CL is the worst disease as we can also get it as it's staph form and nowdays I wont take a chance .
I AM REALLY SORRY that you started off with dealing with this mess


----------



## Nubie Fresh-Joe

That is the one thing that Mrs. Vicki has drilled in to my head... Check papers... test any way... only buy from people with a program....


----------



## thegreenboysmom

I am very new in the Nubian business. I bought 3 newborns almost 3 weeks ago. After reading all of these posts, I need to do some research. I don't even know what CAE is. I do intend to find out. Any new information would be greatly appreciated. We have cattle, chickens, and pigs from time to time but this is our first goats. They have quickly become members of our family.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

It's super hard to start out this way Kathy, about the time you go searching for real information, you already have fallen in love with the goats. Then you test or ask the breeder if they test. We wish only the best of luck to you! Welcome to the forum. Vicki


----------



## Zoomom

Ok, I have apparently been out of the loop for too long. I was raised in Idaho on goat milk as a kid & now finally have land in Michigan & just bought a herd of my own. I have never heard of CAE. The breeder who sold me this herd never mentioned it & I have none of their medical papers, only registrations. What are the symptoms? How do they get it? How do I test for it? I gotta admit I am kinda scared about this. Now it seems awful suspicious that she would sell me her herd & start building a new one just for different colors. Any advice would be helpful.


----------



## Lynn_Theesfeld

Hi and welcome to the forum. Can you please fill out your signature line with your name and what part of the country you are located in? It helps us to better help you and helps us all to get familiar with each other.

Now for your question 

Cae symptoms aren't always a sign to go by if your animal isn't systomatic, but swollen knees and a hard udder are what to watch for.
Testing is pretty simple. You draw blood at least 2cc and send it into bio trackling (www.biotracking.com) there is another lab you can use, but the name escapes me at the moment. 
Bio trackings site has all the info you need in order to ship. You can either learn to pull the blood yourself or have a vet do it for you.

My advise is to get them tested ASAP. There is no reason not to know and when you do you can decide what is best for you and your family concerning your new herd. Good luck!! Hopefully they will all come up negative!!! In the meantime I'd read this forum, there is information all over it about CAE.

Lynn


----------



## Annie

My vet was here a few weeks ago to do the bloodwork on my herd for CAE testing. First I have to say I did have one old positive doe who has been here since she was a few weeks old, been retired for yrs, never showed symptoms, never. I never used her milk for anything other than the house, she always had her same stall, she had horns and was one of those goats who didn't really want friends so she pretty much stuck to herself. She died last year at 13 yrs, just laid down and passed away quietly one day.

Ok. I know I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was hit like a brick. My 6 yr old reg. buck who tested neg at 9 mos old is positive. So is one of the two does I'm milking, and a yearling. Vet knows the background of my buck and his lineage, says while the breeder is NOW obsessed about not having ANY CAE in her herd but was not back then..argghhhh. The milking doe - her mom came to me from a good Amish friend who bought her from another reg. herd who I thought was a CAE-neg herd too, but not entirely sure. I had the mom tested when I first got her and she did test neg, but geezzzshh.. The yearling ? Maybe she snuck a drink off the milking doe last summer  
So, will be culling all three, and probably two others that I had planned to move on anyway. 

My question - I did a little research, most of what I found DID say there had never been any proven cases of a buck becoming CAE positive from breeding a positive doe, but I'm questioning that. Any opinions? My buck bred my pos. doe twice.

Yep CAE testing is IMPORTANT! I printed out biotracking's info, went over it with the vet, she said she had always used Ohio State (we're in Ohio), but she was interested in what I gave her. She did say OS was now using the ELISA testing now. I told her to do what she felt was best, and wouldn't ya know it, she used OS. I'll probably repeat the tests in Nov/Dec, does that sound about right in timing? And I WILL be sending to Biotracking


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

Did OS give you titer levels? I want to see them because I want to retest anyone who has a high negative. I would NEVER get rid of a goat on one test. She could be ill, or recently vaccinated, both can scew the test....now I don't think it can scew it into a positive on biotracking test, but certainly into borderline. And since you don't know what numbers OS uses for negative to borderline to positive, you don't know how close to each number she was. I would retest everyone in 6 months.

My 1990 buck bred and lived during breeding season with groups of does who were positive, he never converted and was tested yearly until he was 9 years old.


----------



## Annie

Of course OS didn't give the darn titer levels, I plan to call them on Monday. (said with sarcasm towards OS)
The buck who tested pos. is my older buck who I had planned to move on anyway, he is father to all my does but one at this point, and I do have a new buck for this fall (who did test neg). 
The milking doe isn't a big loss either, I don't have papers for her, and she's on the smaller side. With the small hay harvest as it's turning out, I'd probably have had to make a few cuts anyway so it's ok that's she's going.
The only one that aggravated me was the yearling doe, she's a gorgeous rust color and I really like her. If I can get those #'s before Wednesday, maybe you can help me make a good decision?


----------



## Annie

Ok. Now I'm angry. Talked to the lab at Ohio State. No titer #'s because they did AGID testing on my samples! He said sometimes they do ELISA, it depended on the volume of testing they had to do. 

I have no one to blame but myself. While I gave my vet the info for Biotracking, she said OS did do ELISA testing now, but I left the decision to her. 

The yearling that tested positive - I'm keeping her here. She's in my avatar, the one peeking over her sister's shoulder. They're half sisters and have been penned together since they were weaned. I'm not separating them at this point. I'll retest her for CAE this winter, after I breed her. 

The pos. buck and the pos. milker are leaving this week. 

Soo, I think I'll try the future blood draws myself. And send the samples to the RIGHT PLACE. I've learned my lesson.


----------



## Annie

Update. Today my vet was out to do blood draws. We did all 7 Lamanchas (including my newer yearling buck), agreed it wasn't necessary to do my ancient 14 yr old pygmy doe who has tested neg 3 times over the yrs and is retired 
After the testing this past summer, I only kept Melody who tested positive by Ohio State (still don't trust that test), in my panic I had taken the rest of the positives to a sale barn. My vet handed me the blood tubes, I packed it all up, called Lorrie at Biotracking, drove into town and the box is on it's way via FedEx 

Now to wait for awhile....Monday is a holiday, so most likely testing won't be be till week after. No matter the outcome, I'll know I did it the right way. If Melody tests positive again, I guess I'll have a decision to make. Vet also did an ultrasound on Mel for a preg. test and she "is". Mmm....gotta wait for test results, decide what I want to do. HOPING for a negative that's for sure.


----------



## Judith319

Legend Hills said:


> I could tell you the whole sad story but I'll just stick with the warning and try not to cry. I've known now for a couple weeks but have been in shock and denial for some time. I am only now able to post this openly. Please do not read it and then dismiss it. That is what I did and now I'm very sorry.
> 
> Please TEST for CAE! Do not delay!
> 
> Do not buy any goats from anyone without seeing the reports with your own eyes. Never 'rescue' and animal and think it is okay. And do NOT feed your 'okay' rescue goat's milk to your kids because she has lots of milk. TEST!
> I did all the wrong things and now I'm paying the price. ALL of my girls (3 two-year olds) have CAE. My whether (son of 'rescue' goat) also had CAE. He was given to someone for their barbeque last week. It hurts as they are my four-legged kids. But I need to send them off and have a clean start. If my two pregnant girls only have boys, looks like I'll be goat-less. I have not yet tested the two bucks. I'll do them soon. My life dream of having goats has been devestated because I did not test and I made the wrong decisions thinking I was doing the right thing. My inexperience and disregard for the advice of others has led to great heartache.
> 
> _Please_ heed my warning. Don't let this happen to you.
> 
> http://www.biotracking.com/goats


I am brand new, and trying to learn about goats before I get mine, your post has saved me a lot of heartache, I would have never known to ask about those tests and reports. I cannot thank you enough for your post. 
Judith


----------



## ak_sundog

So sorry you've had to deal with this misery Kimberly. A hard lesson indeed.

I'm fortunate to have had the fear of CAE struck into me early on in goats... it was three years before we could get testing done, but during that time we took all possible precautions, pulling kids & raising on pasteurized milk. We organized a testing clinic with a number of herds which made the cost affordable for everyone, and were relieved to learn that our goats were negative. But the big breakthrough came with learning to do my own blood draws about 6 years ago, which has made it easy and affordable to test yearly as well as testing any new goat before allowing them into the herd. 

A good motto is "trust but verify"... a breeder with integrity who has actually tested their goats shouldn't have a problem being asked to provide a copy of results with the sale of an animal. (In fact, they should offer it.) The way I approach it is "May I please get a copy of your test results to file with mine so that I have a complete herd health history?" If someone hems and haws or makes excuses it's a red flag to be heeded -- most likely they either haven't tested or are hiding something. 

And don't forget, as bad as CAE is, Johne's & CL can be even worse -- the CAE virus can only survive in an intact cell and dies after 15-30 minutes in the environment, but both the Johne's & CL bacteria can survive for years in the soil. We test for CAE every year, and alternate years between the other two.

The positive thing is that sharing your experience may very well help some other goat owners avoid the same tragedy.

Cheers,

Suzy
Cottonwood Creek Farm
Registered Alpines


----------



## donadavis

*ELISA CAE test not conclusive.*

You have to re-test when you have a positive result. Negative results are accurate but the normal CAE test can give a false positive under numerous conditions.

A friend of mine has a doe with bad arthritis and a positive test for CAE. She couldn't figure it out though as she had a closed herd and they never had contact with other goats. She had a second test done a few months later and it came up negative.

I had a doe with huge knees (she had broken both legs as a kid) and the person I sold her to kept thinking I was lying and that she had CAE despite the fact that she was never exposed to any other goats (never bred). I would suspect a false positive if I bought a goat from someone who said they tested and then the goat came back positive. I would wonder if the stress from the move hadn't caused a sub clinical infection which then showed anti-bodies.

So please re-test. If you want to be sure you have to use the PCR instead of the ELISA. Pull the kids, give them pasteurized goats milk and keep them away from suspect dams but please re-test before you destroy the goats. CAE is a horrible problem but the testing is not yet reliable so be aware!


----------



## ak_sundog

*How to handle that delicate question...*

My heart goes out to all who have posted about getting CAE+ goats due to misplaced trust or being uncomfortable with asking to see test results. Just think of it this way -- "trust, but verify". One approach is to say "I'd like a copy of your test results to add to my own so that my prospective buyers can see a complete picture of my herd."

Those of us who really do test regularly are generally perfectly willing to share results with prospective buyers -- shoot, those annual tests cost a chunk of change, my kid pricing reflects that cost, so why wouldn't I feel great about showing years of negative testing to someone considering buying from me?

To me it is a huge red flag (i.e.







dealbreaker) if someone says their herd is tested, but can't come up with paperwork. Even if your computer crashed, or your records all burned up in a barn fire you can still go back to your lab or your vet and ask for a replacement copy. My response to that -- "Well, I've got too much money and heart tied up in my herd to risk the uncertainty, so no thanks." Or as a last resort, bring the new animal to your place but keep her in quarantine until you can do the testing yourself, it only takes a week or so to get results back. Any reputable breeder should be on board with this if they don't have current test results to give you.

Here's hoping these thoughts might prevent someone else from going down that tragic road.

Cheers,

Suzy

Cottonwood Creek Farm
Wasilla, AK
Registered Alpines


----------



## goatkid

I agree that any breeder who really cares about their goats and reputation will be willing to show you their records. Case in point: This summer I got a Nubian buckling in trade for one of my doelings from a breeder I'd met on FB, but not in person. I recognized the name of the breeder of the kid's dam. She's on DGI and has a negative herd. My buckling's breeder sent a copy of her herd tests without my even needing to ask. One of her does was positive, but not the dam of my buckling. He was pulled at birth and bottle raised. She tested this fall and discovered that three of her this year's kids were positive and let me know right away. She said there was a possibility her mother fed the wrong milk to kids at a show and to be sure and test my kid. She offered to replace him if he was positive. I tested him and fortunately he (as well as the rest of my goats) are negative. She plans to cull all her positives as she learned something from her experience. This is a breeder I now trust to buy animals from as she has exhibited honesty and integrity.


----------



## GoatsforGuatemala

This is to anyone. I am very new and need help. What is CAE and does the test for it need to be performed by a vet or is their a test kit on the market like the California mastitis test?


----------



## SolsticeSun

It's a blood test. Biotracking is the most popular testing site. Some more about it- http://www.biotracking.com/?q=goats/CAE/FAQS


----------



## hsmomof4

GoatsforGuatemala,
please edit your profile so that your name, location, and type of goats appears in your signature. It helps us to help you. Thanks!

In answer to your question, there is a lot of CAE information over in the Health and Wellness section, which is in order alphabetically. CAE stands for Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis (and is the same thing that in sheep is called OPP). It is an incurable viral disease that causes inflammation (arthritis) and less commonly neurologic symptoms (that's the encephalitis part), as well as does freshening with hard udders and no milk (to me, that's inflammation again). Some goats can be positive but asymptomatic, so testing is important, and it is most commonly spread through the colostrum and milk of infected does. It is tested with a blood test...you can either have your vet draw blood and send it off for testing, or you can learn to do it yourself...all of the info on it is over in the Health and Wellness section. (by learn to do it yourself, I meant drawing the blood...you'd still have to send it off for testing)


----------



## Brigitte

There is no reason you can't keep them. Since you know they are positive, you can protect the babies by having them born in their sac, then removing it and wash/dry the kids and keep them separate from your other goaties with a minimum of 6' between pen fences. Bottle feed a commercial colostrum, then a milk replacer...

Here is some more info, from the Merck manual:
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/gen...ew_of_caprine_arthritis_and_encephalitis.html

There are breeders that choose to manage the disease, rather than cull.
Here is one example:
http://www.redwoodhillherd.com/ordering-info/herd-health


----------



## rosawoodsii

Legend Hills said:


> Thank you Kim. My only wish now is for others to not make the same mistakes I have.
> 
> The update on the situation here is: We'll only keep the two female kids and never breed again. They will be pets only, so says my caring husband who sees me (_in my disabled condition_) buying store-bought milk (_we really can't afford_) to supplement the pasteurized milk that is not enough... testing the temps of which with two separate thermometers, marking the 'done' milk with food coloring, cooling the milk, putting it up in containers, straining it and feeding four kids separately (_without lambar, the girls would starve if I used one_). Getting up at 6am when I normally had to sleep until 9 or 10 just to feel somewhat refreshed to feed and to milk. As of yesterday we are _finally_ down to two feedings a day. Perhaps in a few years we might change our minds about breeding but I kinda doubt it. So my breeding days are over. My dream is done. At least I have my two little girls to love on. That much brings me much joy.
> 
> Kim


Why in the world would you not use their milk? Milk from CAE+ does is safe for humans, and in fact some studies have shown that it confers protection from HIV (both retroviruses).

I have a mixed herd, a couple positives and the rest negative. I sell with full disclosure, test yearly, bottle feed (with heat-treated milk) the kids from the CAE+ does, who, btw, are asymptomatic. One of them is my best milker. This is not as tragic as everyone here is making it out to be. The does are healthy, separated from the rest of the herd, and I will breed them to Boers for meat goats.

My first doe (the great milker) was positive when I got her. I had never heard of CAE, and was devastated when I had her tested, as everyone told me what a dread disease it was and that I should put her down. Luckily, I did a lot of research, and found out CAE can be managed, it's not the end of the world. 90% of the tested herds have at least one positive animal and only 10% ever become symptomatic. Ever. And breedable bucks need not be sent down the line either, because CAE is not passed by breeding. Horizontal contamination is pretty rare as well, but maintaining two herds is still the safest way to go.


----------



## donadavis

*Not using milk from CAE positive goats*

There was some talk years ago about the possibility that CAE caused a resistance to HIV/AIDS in populations where goats milk was consumed regularly. and if you think that's far-fetched consider that our smallpox vaccine came from someone noticing that milk maids didn't get small pox and were constantly exposed to a similar disease, cow pox.

The CAE infected milk can't hurt you but it might actually help you.

Dona Davis
Spring Mtn Farm
Purebred Nubian, Vermont


----------



## HappyCaliGoats

Hi everyone! I'm new to dairy goats and this forum has got me worried.. When I decided to get my first dairy goats I was told that I do not need to test my pet goats because they will not be breeding and CAE is only transmitted through milk.. Apparently I was misinformed? My kids are still too young to test but after doing the research I'm going to pull blood from all my non breeding goats and send it to biotracking! I hope I don't have any positive goats.. I have a gorgeous little Nubian buckling and doeling pair and I'm picking up a 2 yr old Nubian in milk next month.

How is CAE transmitted other than milk?? I really don't understand this virus.. I have read a lot about it but it all seems inconclusive..

I got my first pet goat 4 years ago from a dairy farm he was not separated from his mother at birth like all the other kids on that farm. He is an alpine guernsey cross. He was 4 days old when I got him and today he is a big furry cuddle bug! I will be sooo devastated if he has this dreaded virus. I do not have enough space to have a buck pen, a doe pen and a CAE pen...
I hope these pics show up, this is my Nubian kids. Doeling on the left and buckling on the right.







And this is my big boy Eddie making a funny face at the camera! He is my baby! This pic was taken almost a year ago so he is a little bigger now. All the pix I have of him from this year are of his big fat head because I can't get him to stand still, he just follows me everywhere.


----------



## doublebowgoats

First of all, just get them tested. Use Biotracking or WSU as most folks trust these labs to be accurate. I see some folks who tend not to care about CAE, but as a breeder, I do. It irritates me that some folks will perpetuate a disease that is so easily ended. If your animals turn out to be positive but you are not going to use them for breeding, I can't see how they would transfer the disease to another goat. I would ask some of the folks who have been around a while and know what CAE can do. KJ Farm, Tim Pruitt, are two folks that come to mind. Read through the posts on here about CAE to educate yourself. Good luck and keep us updated.


----------



## HappyCaliGoats

I read a CAE thread in the health and wellness section that said it can possibly be transmitted by saliva? Like from drinking the same water? I wish I was not misinformed before I bought these two kids, I would have tested my non breeders before ever buying goats that I intend to breed.. I have a boer in milk right now and I know she would never let the nubian kids nurse because she hates them and they stay clear of her, but what about the possibility of a drop of milk from her falling on hay then them eating it? I just pray that her test comes negative.. 
Thank you for your input


Newbie to Nubian dairy goats. Also have 1 alpine/guernsey wether, 1 boer doe, 2 Pygmy does, and 1 Pygmy/Nigerian wether.


----------



## mountaingoats12

I wish I knew about CAE before I bought my goats, it's such a terrible feeling when you realize that your babies have the equivilant of AIDS  ..


----------



## mountaingoats12

CAE can be transmitted through milk, blood, birthing fluids, and occasionally urine, semen and saliva...


----------



## HappyCaliGoats

So I heard that it can't be transmitted through breeding?? And if it is transmitted through birthing fluids then how does pulling the kids off their dams at birth prevent them from getting it if they are already surrounded by the fluid for 5 months?? This is why I don't quite understand this virus yet.. Too many questions..


Newbie to Nubian dairy goats. Also have 1 alpine/guernsey wether, 1 boer doe, 2 Pygmy does, and 1 Pygmy/Nigerian wether.


----------



## rosawoodsii

The chances of transmission by semen are little to none. In fact, there are NO documented instances. None. I have used a CAE+ buck to cover my does and there was no transmission.

There are a lot of myths surrounding CAE. It is not the scary problem so many people think it is. I have two positive does that are completely asymptomatic. Yes, I'll be glad when I have a totally negative herd. but I just don't worry about it anymore, having lived with it for 6 years now. I just make sure any kids get pulled at birth and the does are never suckled.

I've also never heard of it being passed by urine, and other means of passing it on are _theoretical_. What is _known_ is that CAE is passed on through colostrum especially, and milk. (And that same milk can protect humans from HIV, btw.)

The only other point of concern is the head butting sprees the herd goes on in earlyspring--a good time to separate everyone because blood can be a carrier, and probably a likely way for horizontal contagion. I have talked to several people who run their positive and negative goats together and have for years. None has ever had an instance of horizontal transmission. They do separate kids at birth, but that's it.


----------



## rosawoodsii

HappyCaliGoats said:


> what about the possibility of a drop of milk from her falling on hay then them eating it? I just pray that her test comes negative..


The chances are next to nothing. As soon as the virus hits the air, it's dead, so they'd have to eat that hay immediately, and even then I think the chances would be pretty darned slim.

Here is a link to an interview that I find especially helpful when I discovered that I'd been sold a CAE positive doe. I also have a lot of other information that I can send people privately. There's really too much to post here. http://www.cornerstonefarm.net/gtcareof.html#caeq&a


----------



## HappyCaliGoats

Thank you for all the info! I would love to hear more if you want to PM me?


Newbie to Nubian dairy goats. Also have 1 alpine/guernsey wether, 1 boer doe, 2 Pygmy does, and 1 Pygmy/Nigerian wether.


----------

