# Take a look at this buckling...



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

I'm strongly considering buying this little guy... He's the purebred Nubian buckling named Doc. Any thoughts?
http://www.giddyupgoats.com/2013-new-kids.html


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm not seeing pedigree info?


----------



## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

I can't even find where it says who the dam is? Who is the dam? Who is the sire? 

If it were me, I'd want to see the dam's udder and find out what her production is like. *joke alert* Right now, all I can tell is he'd make a nice rug. :biggrin


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If you like the dams, by the buckling. If her dams are better than your's, buy the buckling. Is her goal similar to your's? Will he give you more milk? Better feet and legs? Better conformation? What is lacking in your goats that this buck will improve. Not a mention of CAE testing or being negative on her website.

Her rumps are pretty bad across the board, you had better have some really nice top lines on your nubians to want to use this buckling. Vicki


----------



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Will agree with Vicki... pretty bad rumps all around. A little week in the chine, and I think he toes out? On the pic where he's standing on the trampoline I think. May just be how he's standing, but don't buy a buck with feet or leg problems.


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

Horsehair Braider said:


> I can't even find where it says who the dam is? Who is the dam? Who is the sire?
> 
> If it were me, I'd want to see the dam's udder and find out what her production is like. *joke alert* Right now, all I can tell is he'd make a nice rug. :biggrin


That bugs me about her website. I've asked about that, and am in momentary expectation of an email. I've already received CAE results. All are negative.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

He has beautiful markings but he has the kind of rump I am trying to breed out of my herd.  
If they are close, you could go out and take a look, but take the pictures ADGA has on their website showing what a good dairy goat looks like. Ask about CAE status, pedigree, de-worming methods, etc. Better yet, take a knowledgeable goat person with you.


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

My problem is that I don't really know what good Nubian conformation is. Sure, I've read some general guides, but I don't really know for sure. There's no way I'm buying him until I get some good photos of his dam's udder, and learn a little more about her milk production. What is the problem with her goat's rumps? Since I don't really know what I'm looking for, advice on this is appreciated. Thanks everyone!


----------



## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

The goat's rump should more resemble a a flat landing field for a plane. Not a ski slope. What you seem to have there are ski slopes. They start at the top of the hip and slant downwards towards the tail. That is the "ceiling" of your udder and you want it flat.


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

Okay, after being on Vicki's website a little, I see how much steeper her goat's rumps are than really good Nubians.  Now, I'm wondering if that's partly because her goats aren't posing to have their pictures taken. All of them have their tails up in the air, which, in my experience, makes the rump look much steeper. Like below- tail is up, rump looks steeper. Or does the below goat have a steep rump? This is turning out to be a good learning experience...


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

http://www.adga.org/index.php?optio...tgoatparts&catid=86:cat-about-goats&Itemid=87
Here is a basic outline of dairy goats and their parts.  I can't find it right now but there are great pictures somewhere that show more detail about how they should look. What I am seeing with the little guy you are looking at is that his rump is sloped and rounded instead of flat. More like what you would see in a meat goat.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Also, you are wanting to see flatness from side to side as well as from hips to pins.


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

What about this one? Now I'm scrutinizing every goat I can find...


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

Or this one?


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

Is it just my inexperience, or is this doe's rump better than the rest?


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

Sorry to take up everybody's time looking at tons of photos... I'm just trying to figure this out.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

It is a great idea to look at lots of photos but even better to go to shows or sit in on someone's appraisal. You will learn so much. These pictures just aren't that helpful because of the way the goats are standing.
Find a website where the breeder has appraisal scores listed AND has good photos so you will see what a good rump looks like. Go to ADGA's website and see the pictures of the show winners.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

http://www.lamanchas.com/natlshow.htm
These are Lamanchas but look at these National winners. Look at their rumps. And toplines and body capacity. And on and on. Obviously these are nice does to have won at Nationals.


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

Wow.... Those are some nice goats! Is it really bad to just want to find an OK buck that is within my price range, and not worry too much at this point about whether or not he has really great conformation? I mean, I have two does, not a big budget, and could upgrade later on. Is this a really bad mindset to have?


----------



## lorit (May 10, 2010)

Alayna,

If budget is limited and you are looking at the cost of buying a buck as well as feed and care, and you only have a few does - why not lease or take your does to a GOOD buck when you are ready for breeding? Yeah, you think you just want to freshen, etc. but you might as well spend the time and money going FORWARD rather than the same or even backwards. And the market is glutted (around here anyways) so good bucks are to be had for good prices if you are willing to have patience and keep looking.


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Alayna, consider finding what bloodlines you like, and then find someone breeding them. You can get bucklings pretty cheap that way. I sold mine out of my first fresheners for $75 this year. Perhaps try a buckling out of a first or second freshener from someone who is breeding lines you like. You can get some good genetics without breaking the bank.


----------



## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

I agree with Ashley. Many bucks are ugly as homemade sin but produce excellent daughters. For me it's more important to see what the dam looks like, see what her appraisal scores are and if she's on milk test, what her production scores are. See if she has any progeny and if so, what THEIR appraisal scores are. ADGA Genetics is an incredibly useful resource, especially if the animals you're looking at have provenance behind them to back up their owners' claims. Caroline


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I think you might regret just settling for any buck. At least make sure the buck you get is some improvement over your does and that he is correct even if he's not outstanding. I really think if you are patient, you will find a buck who will improve your herd and be in your budget. You have a while before breeding season and it may be that in late summer, someone will use their buck and then be ready to move him out and you can get a good deal.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

From thurl to thurl she is incredibly flat, from hooks to pins she has a high hip. Look at the huge improvement seen in her daughter out of Lynnhaven Great Expectations. Rona is out of a buck that shares the same hip as other does on my wall, out of the same sire  Vicki


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

Thank you everyone for your encouragement! I think I needed to hear that since I tend to be impatient. There doesn't seem to be a glut of _good_ bucklings in the market around here for some reason, though there are plenty like the ones I've posted pictures of. I've finally found stud service for my Saanen (that is, if I can convince my dad that it's a good idea for us to drive an hour to get there!) And the same dairy has Nubians too. They have a great reputation around here, and my first two does (which I killed by my inexperience  were from them.) I'd forgotten about them when I first started looking for a buck, but am now corresponding, and will be getting some pictures of bucklings whenever two of their senior does kid. We'll see. I'm excited! :biggrin
Thanks again for all the help and advice! Maybe I can sit in on a linear appraisal next time there's one locally. Now I just need to learn how to read and understand DHIR and linear appraisal scores...


----------



## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Alayna - since you've been looking at photos of goats, here's one of our most recent EEEE 92 doe, GCH TLC-Farms Tawanda's Next Tune 5*M. Wish you were here in Texas as we do have a lovely buckling out of her sired by Kastdemur's Viento, whose daughters have averaged 87.4 in their linear appraisal scores. Caroline


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

Wow, she's beautiful! What about this doeling? I can see that I need to study this, so I'm trying to develop an eye for it. I was checking bloodlines this morning on ADGA genetics. Thanks for all the help!


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

From what I can see in the pic, I like that doeling  Trying to picture her stood up better.. Looks long, long neck, nice breed character, shoulders look good everything flows well. I can't really tell width.


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

I think this one is her sister...


----------



## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Another way to get a buck or buckling from great genetics if find someone who isnt a big name herd but has the genetics you want. I did this and have an awesome buckling out of a doe that SherrieC bred, but I bought him at a much lower price because the family that now owns the doe only has a few and uses them for family milk and doesnt show, appraise, or milk test, so sells kids at much lower prices but the genetics are still there.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I agree to check with breeders in your area. You never know.  We do linear appraisal, are on milk test and occasionally show. I had kids from my two sr does (one got her *M in 4 tests and appraised VVEV86 as a 3yr old and the other is a 12*M and appraised +V+V84 as a 2 yr old) sired by Pruittville's T/S Sugar Ray listed for $550 on my website. BOTH had trip bucklings, so we had bucklings without reservations and I listed them all over FB for $100 each if picked up by a week old. Gone, gone and GONE! 

ETA: I just popped on FB and there was a message from one of the gals that bought a buckling out of the 12*M. She said: "Did you know the trips were *B's? I am TICKLED PINK I have 2 star milker does, and so glad to have a star buck... THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU". ROFL I didn't know. I am tickled pink for her and how exciting to have bred my first *Bs.


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

That all sounds great, but I have no idea what "got her *M in 4 tests and appraised VVEV86 as a 3yr old and the other is a 12*M and appraised +V+V84 as a 2 yr old" or *B means. :blush
Where can I get an education on how to understand all this fancy talk? ???


----------



## still (Apr 20, 2013)

tlcnubians said:


> Alayna - since you've been looking at photos of goats, here's one of our most recent EEEE 92 doe, GCH TLC-Farms Tawanda's Next Tune 5*M. Wish you were here in Texas as we do have a lovely buckling out of her sired by Kastdemur's Viento, whose daughters have averaged 87.4 in their linear appraisal scores. Caroline


How much are you asking for your buckling? I have a buck right now out of your buck TLC farms ALI BABA but I am keeping two of his daughters so I would like to get new bloodlines. By the way my buck has been great I just have such a small herd otherwise I wouldn't be getting rid of him


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

It takes time. I'm still trying to figure out alot of it.  Like, I'm trying to figure out how these little guys are *B and where to find the info. LOL Just keep looking at pics and then look up their pedigree on ADGA and check their LA's and production. Ask questions. All the *stuff* I posted just means that they are pretty nice goats.  There are surely better, but there's also alot that aren't as nice. My biggest brag is CAE neg/CL free. Working on the G6S normal. Only 2 more tests and we are CLEAR.


----------



## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

Denise, one way a *B is born, is if his dam has a Milk Star, and she is bred to a * Buck.
A Star Milker bred to a Star Buck will produce Star Bucks.
That's just one way to get a Star Buck...


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

Okay, so the * means Star? And *B means "Star Buck" and *M means "Star Milker"? 
Sorry, I know this is probably like the most basic stuff any breeder should know about appraisals and such, but I need an interpretation here... Is there some kind of "dairy goat terminology dictionary" that I could look at?


----------



## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

You are correct, Alayna.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Well, as far as I know, the sire is not a *B (yet  ). He only has one daughter registered that I have her papers, and he's not a *B on her papers (from last year-she's a dry yearling). His sire (on the papers) is not a *B, but his dam is a *M. So maybe his sire's dam got her star? Would that pass it down the line?

I'm still trying to figure out just how a buck gets a star. ? One way, I understand, is you can get *Ms on 3 daughters in different herds and that will give a buck his star. I don't know how they get the +s though. :/


----------



## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

There are two ways a buck can become a *B. "Stars" depend on the buck's parents.
1) His dam is either an Advanced Registry doe or a *M (Star Milker), and his sire is an Advanced Registry sire or a *Buck.
2) His dam is either an Advanced Registry doe or a *M, and his sire's dam is either an Advanced Registry doe or a *M.

There are five ways a buck can become a +B. "Pluses" depend on the buck's progeny.
1) He has three *M daughters from three different dams.
2) He has two +B sons.
3) He has one Advanced Registry son and one +B son.
4) He has one Advanced Registry son and two Advanced Registry and/or *M daughters.
5) He has one +B son and two Advanced Registry and/or *M daughters.
A buck can become a ++B by qualifying in any of the above five ways to become a +B, except the way in which he earned his first +.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Well, that explains it.  Their dam is a *M and their sire's dam is a *M. So any doe with her *M that we breed him to will produce *B bucklings. COOL!


----------



## Golden Delta Alpines (Mar 8, 2012)

Yep. I looked at Tim's page for Sugar Baby, your buck's dam. Looks like she earned her milking star in 2012 at a milking competition.


----------



## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

You should check with the breeders nearby of animals you admire, I sell first freshener bucklings for $ 100 soaking wet. I had triplets this year out of a doe, that went for wethers, I'd much rather have sold them as bucks and Plan on repeating the breeding for my own buck kid this year. Out of a first freshener, means that this one year old doe is in milk for the first time, hasn't ever been appraised in milk yet, or shown in milk, or had time to earn her milk star, but Will be blood tested for CAE (on our farm anyhow.) I have does every year that are very good quality first fresheners, and they love to have bucklings. This next year I will probably have 7-8 first fresheners. Not all of them will be good enough to stay, and will be sold as family milkers. Those that do stay will have soaking wet bucklings for sale. That's always the better choice if available in your area then buying from a family who is new to raising goats and breeding a "family Milker" quality doe to who knows what buck. Unless you are experienced, and they have a to die for goat and you pick it up the kid right after birth to raise correctly, it's kind of like the blind leading the blind.


----------



## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

That is a pretty awful amateur website. Doesn't have any of the things you would expect like a "site map" - the "about us" page while cute doesn't actually tell you anything about them or the herd or what state/country they live in - you have to actually stumble across that in the "contact us" page where we learn they are in "Astatula, Fl" and the contact method is a feedback form which many of these types of sites do not feed that directly to a live monitored email but rely on the owner to check the feedback bucket (often once their for sale items are sold they wont be checking that very often and your feedback may just sit a while).

Then there is the lack of pedigree info everyone already pointed out. Most of the effort was put into making it pretty rather than functioning as it should. Which tells me they are the type if selling a truck would spend more time putting a new coat of paint on it to make it look awesome instead of brakes and a tuneup. My two cents.


----------



## AlaynaMay (May 12, 2012)

I agree. I really wasn't all that impressed with their website, starting when I found out that they don't have pedigree info. They do CAE test, and sent me registration numbers as soon as I asked for them, but I don't think I'll be getting him. He's pretty and all, but the rump issue really did it in, especially since neither of my does have the best rumps. Now I have yet another picture... I'm probably not all that interested in this buckling, but for the sake of education, what do y'all think of him?


----------



## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

It's so difficult to tell at this age what an animal will look like when they're full grown and even more importantly, his genetic potential. This little guy looks small, short necked and flat faced, but even so, it doesn't mean he won't produce lovely doe offspring. He does have an okay rump, nice angulation to his rear legs, a flat, if short, back, and good short pasterns. And his color is lovely. Caroline


----------

