# Copper toxicosis in dairy goats



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Copper toxicosis in dairy goats

Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 
<http://avmajournals.avma.org/loi/javma>
August 15, 2007, Vol. 231, No. 4, Pages 586-589

Copper toxicosis in a dairy goat herd
Jennifer Cornish, DVM, DACVIM; John Angelos, DVM, PhD, DACVIM; Birgit 
Puschner, DVM, PhD, DACVT; Grant Miller, DVM; Lisle George, DVM, PhD, 
DACVIM
Department of Medicine and Epidemiology, School of Veterinary Medicine, 
University of California, Davis, CA 95616 (Cornish, Angelos, George); 
California Animal Health and Food Safety Laboratory System, University 
of California, Davis, CA 95616 (Puschner); Sonoma Marin Veterinary 
Service, 1120 Industrial Ave, Ste 13 and 14, Petaluma, CA 94952 (Miller)
Address correspondence to Dr. Cornish.

*Case Description*-A closed herd of 400 mixed-breed dairy goats was 
examined because of a decrease in milk production and increase in 
mortality rate. Nine animals had died within a 1-month period.

*Clinical Findings*-Clinical signs were evident only in lactating goats 
and included anorexia and recumbency. In the most severely affected 
goats, signs progressed to neurologic abnormalities and death. Serum 
aspartate aminotransferase activity, ?-glutamyltransferase activity, and 
total bilirubin concentration were high in clinically affected does, but 
no evidence of hemolysis was found. A diagnosis of copper toxicosis was 
made on the basis of high liver and kidney copper concentrations and 
histologic evidence of hepatic necrosis. Goats were found to have been 
fed a mineral mix containing 3,050 ppm copper for 9 months prior to the 
onset of copper toxicosis. Overall, there was no consistent relationship 
between serum hepatic enzyme activities, serum copper concentration, and 
liver copper concentration.

*Treatment and Outcome*-Clinically affected goats were treated with 
penicillamine, ammonium molybdate, sodium thiosulfate, and vitamin E. 
Penicillamine increased urine copper excretion in treated does versus 
untreated control animals. An increased incidence of infectious disease 
was identified in the herd 9 months later. Liver vitamin E concentration 
was low in 10 of the 12 goats that underwent necropsy.

*Clinical Relevance*-Findings suggested that penicillamine may be an 
effective treatment for goats with copper toxicosis. Production losses 
months after the diagnosis was made suggested that the intoxication had 
a prolonged animal welfare and economic impacts.


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

gosh! Very interesting; thanks for the post. 

I have been feeding our dairy gals our beef mineral that has 3000 ppm copper and they have slowly but surely become deficient. They have the fish tail, white around the eyes and and copper toned casting to their coats now. Those affected the most have been the heavier milkers (saanen and sable) and ones that I have had a little less than a year and believe they started out that way but have worsened here also. 

The nubians have all been sold now, but I never did notice any of the signs in them; not that that means they were good. The goats all chow down the mineral. We do have pretty high iron water. 

I am going to be bolusing shortly and was thinking of giving the two most affected a whole bolus to start out with. Maybe I will think on the amount more. thanks.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I sure wouldn't do a whole bolus/ stick to www.saanendoah.com recomendations and go by weight.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't have any more information than what was passed on here...but curios as all get out if it's a bolused herd that is still using that incredible amount of copper in the mineral. If anything I think this shows just how dangerous the whole copper sulfate craze really is! If a little works, use a whole lot more. Vicki


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2007)

This article is interesting, but lots of holes in it for me to ask ??? about. I think that I could assume with 400 animals, that this took place on a goat dairy farm.
Without knowing other circumstances surrounding this herd that might be going on too, I'm not sure how many conclusions that I could draw from this.
I do however get some concerned that many of us are to quick to jump on board with some of these "fads" that get started, that go outside and beyond what is natural or normal.
I'll probably not live long enough to see what we are creating in goat generations to come by doing such things that go outside the realm of being normal, but I almost wonder if we are not helping to create "junkies" with some of our ways of doing things that we often call making improvements.


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## Little Meadows (Oct 27, 2007)

http://www.kinne.net/cu-tox.htm Vicki's post spurred me to do some googling and I found this interesting article.

Liese


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Notice all the copper sulfate references. Vicki


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Trace mineral salt is not the only culprit that may cause problem. Goats are more prone to copper poisoning when their diet consists of feeds manufactured for other species, especially dairy cattle and horses. ~ from the Kinne article.

Frankly, I would wonder why the dairy would have been using beef cattle minerals instead of dairy goat minerals. Mismanagement and an expensive lesson learned for them.

It's more of a warning not to use minerals made for other species, I think. It's not difficult, nor prohibitively expensive, to go to a nutritionist and get the feeding program analyzed for dairy goats either. I've got to wonder why the dairy didn't do that?

The article doesn't mention where the dairy was. that would have been interesting to know.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

With a mineral with a copper level of 3500 PPM of copper, mostly made up of copper sulfate. That's simply crazy high in any species. 

It shows how we give good information, try to temper it with our experiences, and then the more is better kicks in. Upping your copper sulfate is not how you treat copper defficiency, you have to bolus if you can't keep your goats in good levels with a normal amount of copper sulfate minerals. Moving to products with chelated minerals is just smarter. Drinking water copper sulfate is the same thing when is it, plus minerals, plus their grain too much? Vicki


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2007)

Was just wondering if anybody has any links (maps) that show copper values in areas accross the US.?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

What people don't understand is that most of us FEED our animals are not free range and regarless of what maps say you don't get an acurate count of any mineral unless you do biopsy[s of your older animals We have no idea what the ground is like even in the next county over where maybe our oats or hay was grown. So we have to supliment when needed.
And Jo I disagree with you as far as species specific minerals But read the lables and know what your feeding.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

The other thing that istn clear to me is from the comment "the goats were fed a mineral..." Did they have it free choice, or was it mixed in their feed? If mixed and with that high copper level, that might also explain it. They also don't state what their other feed was, and if that also contained some mineral which some commercial feeds do. 

Sad story, but IMHO theres just not enough info to really extrapolate from .


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Sondra, you can tell from soil and feed analysis if there is going to be adequate copper in the diet or not. You can also tell if there is an excess of other minerals or inhibitors in the feeds and the soils where the feeds are being grown. 

I guess if there are products made for goats then they should be used before other products made for a different species. I wouldn't take a vitamin made for a gorilla or a monkey. 

This should really be done before any supplements are considered. 
There are more than 10 different pre-made dairy goat formulas out there. Virtually every area in the u.s. has a dairy goat formula. I guess I don't understand why they would choose to use a beef formula instead.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Nobody is choosing to use a 'beef' formula. At least when you want to disagree with virtually everything I say you could at least READ the information. Tech Master Complete is labeled for cattle, horses and GOATS! It's virtually the first mineral I have ever seen in 21 years of DAIRY GOATS that specifically gives information that goats are not sheepandgoats that their mineral needs are much closer to that of their larger cousin, cattle. In reality goats metabolisims are even faster than cattle, but it sure is close. No other mineral out there also has kelp, yeast and chelated minerals in it. It also doesn't contain the vast amounts of iron most red minerals contain. Vicki


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2007)

I just think we are missing out on a piece of the puzzle when it comes to copper and it's uses. Goats have survived for a few thousand years without any additives given in their diet. Now in the last 50 yrs. or so, we seem to know what is better for our animals and we manufacture it and feed it to our goats.......We are constantly having to make adjustments trying to keep optimum levels in their nutritional needs, and now we supposedly have goats that are dieing from the effects of having a lack of copper, and some that are dieing from to much copper.
I realize that goats for the most part, are being kept in penned areas and are not allowed to browse where they can pick and choose what they need naturally, but goats have been one of the hardiest animals on the face of the earth since the beginning of time, and have survived in a lot less than optimal conditions for the most part. I just got to believe that we are missing some crucial information somewhere when it comes to keeping our goats at optimal nutritional levels.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> but goats have been one of the hardiest animals on the face of the earth since the beginning of time, and have survived in a lot less than optimal conditions for the most part


But, what you're not taking into consideration,Whim, is that the goats we manage are being asked to produce MUCH more than goats in other areas of the world. Yea, we could turn them loose to fend on their own, no supplements,
no grain, no alfalfa, no minerals, no chemical wormers or drugs when they're sick and let the fittest survive...but we don't. And personally, I'd really hate to see the resulting caprines left when it was all said and done. You also don't mention that the goats in other areas are nomadic...meaning they are seldom in the same spot for more than a day. Kinda' like rotational grazing to an extreme. We can't feasibly do that. The neighbors would get very irritated and sue. :sigh
Again, the feeds made specifically for goats is formulated by people that specialize in cattle. The bottom line...we,goat breeders, are not backed by enough $$ money and organizations to receive the attention needed. Their way of looking at it, just like goat medicine has been for years...a ruminant is a ruminant. So, to try to get the most adequate nutrition and mineral balance to correspond with the dairy goats and their stages of lactation, condition, and environment, we use the research done on dairy cattle and *tweak* it to help manage our animals.

Like someone said...there's just not enough info. and too many holes, in the beginning post to make even an educated guess. _No offense intended_...but dairies are in a profit/loss situation and every penny counts. So naturally, they are going to try to cut expenses in the most costly area- feed/minerals.
JMO,
Kaye


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

Goats have survived on their own for thousands of years because they are hardy and intelligent animals. They are opportunists and not specialists when it comes to diet...for instance they will eat almost anything whereas a panda bear will only eat bamboo (which is one reason it is almost extinct). So goats are survivors. Just look anywhere, there are feral goats in all parts of the world.

However, in the last "50 years" or so, mankind has done a huge amount of manipulation of the gene pool making the dairy goats we have today FAR removed form the wild/feral goats that are still thriving all around the world. Fifty years can be 50 generations in goat time. Lots of changes can take place with all of our "culling". We often cull the very goats who would be able to survive without mankind's intervention, leaving us with goats that NEED us. They are huge producers and we have made them that way with our selection for this trait. They cannot possibly supply themselves with the nutrients and elements they need to do this. 

If we let well enough alone, turned our herds out loose in the woods and checked back on them in several generations, they would begin to look like their ancestors did. And surely in 50 generations they would be unrecognizable as dairy goats. Anything that could not glean enough copper out of its diet, or anything that demanded high copper to succeed, would not reproduce or reproduce successfully and so on til all that was left would be hardy goats that did not need us to help them. They would have smaller udders, smaller body size, harder hooves, smaller hardier kids at birth.

Nature fixes what mankind messes up...if given the opportunity.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki, I'm sorry I spoke without having the facts at hand. I thought we were talking about the article in the AVMA. What I had heard was this: This was a dairy in northern California, had been instructed to feed a beef cattle mineral mix to their goats. This was a mix designed for free range beeves.

What you posted was the summery of the article. The actual article is much longer and has many interesting details in it. Also, it has some information about how they tried to treat the excess copper. It's interesting that the the herd also suffered losses 5 months later due to an infectious disease too.

They were working with a nutritionist too, who it seems gave them bad info. It's not clear to me whether or not they thought the mix just had too much copper in it, or wether they suddenly thought that feeding it to the goats was a bad idea. 
I can't remember what the good levels for copper concentration in the livers is, but on the 4 initial does that they tested the levels were from 251-327.

I think you are right, it would have been far safer for them to bolus than to attempt to feed a mix with such a high concentration of copper.

(from the article which can be attained at avma.)
"To identify possible sources of copper exposure in
the herd, copper content of samples of hay (12 ppm),
water (< 50 ppb), grain (34 ppm), and mineral mix
(3,050 ppm) was analyzed. According to the National
Research Council,1 the recommended total dietary intake
of copper for a lactating dairy doe weighing 70 kg
(154 lb) is 61 mg/d. Assuming total dry matter intake
of 2.5% of body weight, daily grain intake of 0.91 kg
(2 lb [31 mg of copper]), and daily hay intake of 0.84
kg (1.85 lb [10 mg of copper]), then a doe would have
been able to ingest only 6 g of the mineral mix (20 mg
of copper) before exceeding this daily requirement. The
nutritionist working for the mineral mix manufacturer
had instructed the dairy owner to withdraw the mineral
mix from the pens at the time doe 1 was examined at the
Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital because of safety
concerns related to the product, which was labeled for
administration to beef cattle on pasture. Previously, a
local distributor for the mineral mix had recommended
this product to the owner of the goat dairy."


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2007)

Jo,

Please put your location in your profile.

Thanks,
Sara


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I think the dairy was on the coast near the bay area- not my idea of 'northern' CA  Maybe they weren't testing each load of hay before it was used, and got some from a different supply?

I disagree about soil and forage testing on your land giving a complete picture- it you are really letting your animals forage, you can have drastically different results on soil and forage tests, even on just a few acres. A classic example from our county is a beef producer with copper deficient cows and their neighbor with no problems at all- same water source, same minerals, same forage type- different soils, even in the same terrain/area.

My sister has been bugging me to bolus her doe- I won't do it until after I do liver biopsies on the butcher wethers this winter. I am feeding techmaster concentrate- 4,000 ppm of copper- I won't bolus until I get a better picture. 

Survey maps aren't accurate at all- they show our area as being ok on selenium- but everyone is Bo-Seing their goats 2-3 times a year here??

Oh- and I haven't found ANY dairy goat or even goat mineral mixes in our area yet- the nearest ones are for southern Oregon and Reno, NV- neither of which have the same climate, forage, or soil that we do. And I think CA is the goat capital of the world :lol

Michelle


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Michelle, are you diluting down the straight Tech....with stock salt? 

I am hoping that I can post all the information here, likely it will just go in Off Topic...but it's the amounts of copper sulfate that is triggering this. I hope we get the info and perhaps we can show how dangerous it is to copper sulfate your water, copper sulfate in minerals, copper sulfate in the minerals in the feed, and natural copper from hay or alfalfa pellets, natural copper from browse.

I know here the well in the cattle pasture (350) acres behind us is pretty nice, it's a more surface well, where ours about 10 acres away is deep and iron ored. I know it's just trite to say this, but I have already been there and done that...testing water, doing all this busy work my vet insisted...it wasn't until I lost an elder doe and knew Joyce from saanendoah.com did I send in my first copper liver biopsy and knew that the old school info is a waste of time. What I really want to come of this is that mineral tag  And no it is not northern California. And my it tis a very small world  Vicki


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki- No, I was mixing it 50/50 with kelp, but I ran out, and I refuse to pay $262 for 50 lbs to replace it locally! No one carries stock salt, only red minerals. Hard to even find a white salt lick! I might mix it again when I go get some more kelp. They don't eat a lot of mineral.

Did you mention before that the copper in techmaster is copper oxide instead of copper sulfate? You mean we shouldn't be mixing up solutions of root killer and drenching our goats? :biggrin

And it is a _tiny_ world if you have goats :lol


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks, I have tried to put in my location. Lets see if I got this right.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

I guess it didn't work. So how do I do that?


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

What I really want to come of this is that mineral tag And no it is not northern California. And my it tis a very small world Vicki

Did you mention before that the copper in techmaster is copper oxide instead of copper sulfate? You mean we shouldn't be mixing up solutions of root killer and drenching our goats? 

And it is a tiny world if you have goats

What do you mean by this? (do you have a point, other than to be catty?)


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

> What do you mean by this? (do you have a point, other than to be catty?)


OK enough is enough!! Let's pass on this and just discuss copper.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I guess it didn't work. So how do I do that?


in your profile forum info 
right under where you would put in an image it say personal text put your location there. also in your signature line.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Thank you, Sondra. I think I added it correctly.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks Jo


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Nope- I was not being catty- it isn't my nature 

Copper sulfate is the ingredient in root killers you use to clear septic lines. I know of people who mix dissolve Root Killer in water and use it to orally drench their goats to treat for copper deficiency, and recommend others to do the same. Eventhough both cupric oxide and cupric sulfate are poisonous if not used carefully, cupric oxide is used in livestock to treat copper deficiency. Both are used as herbicides, both leach into natural waterways and are toxic to fish and plants AND people. And when I rechecked my label on the techmaster- it also contains copper amino acid chelate and copper sulfate. 

I am in northern CA- the dairy was near the bay area (which I don't consider 'northern' CA)- totally different climates and forage and probably hay grown in different areas- I was attempting to emphasize the fact that each one of us will have different copper issues- until you biopsy, you don't know what you are dealing with. You can have just as many health issues with deficiency as with toxicity, including death. It is a hard issue, no matter which side you come at it from.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

"emphasize the fact that each one of us will have different copper issues- until you biopsy, you don't know what you are dealing with"

I'll almost be willing to bet that the issue goes further than that......I'm betting that each goat within in herd can have very different levels of copper in their system at any given time.......Thinking that if all the goats in a herd had very close genetic ties with each other (coming from the same lines) , that a biopsy could be more accurate in making copper assessments overall in the herd..... even if that was the case, I'm not so sure that you could have very much control over copper issues, and others , unless you were to confine your goats to eating only what you selectively feed them.
It appears to me that different breeds can have different needs when it comes to deficiencies also.

To rap my part of this discussion up.....I guess what I'm trying to say is just like we don't all wear the same size shoes, I suspect that each goat within a herd can have very different needs when it comes to suppliments. It's kinda to late to make adjustment in a goats diet after you cut a piece of liver off and have it checked for copper levels.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

> I'll almost be willing to bet that the issue goes further than that......I'm betting that each goat within in herd can have very different levels of copper in their system at any given time


Whim I think that is probably true but if in my case (no browse what so ever/fed on dry lots) I need to suppliment all my goats regardless of breed according to size until which time after testing an older one from my herd I find out different either too much or too little of something. And the only way to know they are getting the best I can offer is to BoSE as I have already seen how it helps and copper bolus because I can tell they need it not only from their looks but also by their fecals and the amount of worming I have to do. Copper is a know fact in controling worm loads in ruminants. What is interesting to me is that they were not using copper rods or bolusing they were just increasing loose copper sulfate.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Thank you. I guess I regularly poison my goats with root killer. They look so dead, it's awful. Running around, looking wonderful and good weight and giving milk nicely (except I dried my last kinder up), with low parasite loads, ect. Yes, that root killer poison really works well to poison my goats. Oh, except dead, poisoned goats can't be running around looking like nice, healthy living goats, now can they? So they must be zombie goats and the milk we drink is zombie goat milk...Or they are ghosts, and the milk we drink is ghostly goat milk, from zombie ghost goats...Ha, Ha., Ha....



What is interesting is that the nutritionist gave the dairy a mix that had extremely high levels of copper in it, when a bolus probably would have been better for them. Goats who are the lower members of the herd tend to show deficiencies more, because they can't just sit there and pig out on the minerals like the higher members can. I can just imagine that the goat with a 371 liver concentration was a piggy and sat there eating the mineral. 

There are obviously different schools of thought when it comes to copper in the diet. Some folks want things to be high tech and others want something that is low tech. This will influence what a person is going to use. Each to his own.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Some folks want things to be high tech and others want something that is low tech. This will influence what a person is going to use.


I resent that statement,Jo. That is not what this forum is about. If you have to be sarcastic take it back to HT or yahoo groups. This post is getting way out of hand with the sarcasim and I for one do NOT enjoy it. 
Kaye


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Your first paragraph....and the dairies goats were all running around prefectly happy until some of her best milkers showed copper poisioning from copper sulfate and started dieing. So you know soo much, even though you haven't once ran a liver biopsy...there comes those XRAY glasses that so many newer folks were issued when they got into goats that miraculously let them see things internally in their goats that I had to test for...worms, cocci, CAE, copper just to name a few. So you can't glean anything from this problem the dairy incountered? Sorry but you would rather be 'herbally,holistically' right than to learn.

So now you have this dairies experience and the info on long term use of copper sulfate on the rumen on saanendoah.com but Pat Colby wrote a book...so what if she lives in a different country than you let alone state? And you have see her goats? Because it follows your signature line of your approach to your management....what I don't get with this is that there is no difference 'herbally' between copper oxide and copper sulfate...do you disclose to your milk customers that your goats drink water laced with root poision? Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

using copper rods in a bolus is sure not high tech


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, look. I have been using this for a number of years and I can see that it works. I don't use the copper sulfate drenches as a regular maintainance it's used more therapeutically when a goat has more than one sign of deficiency.

My mineral mix that we use also has copper sulfate in it. The goats don't really get to eat them free choice though. I only give it too them 3 times per week. This mineral mix must be better than purina though, since my animals have been looking better and I haven't needed to give them extra copper for over a year. 

So when you all say copper sulfate doesn't work, what am I supposed to think? (It must be gremlins.) Laughing about it is better than getting mad, Kaye. Vicki has a good point, though and now we considering getting the liver biopsies done next year, because I am curious too. 
You know, I don't fully trust Pat Colby and her book because of some of the things she says. She shows little research to back her ideas up. 

By the way, there have been a few studies that have shown copper sulfate to work better than copper oxide. Now I'm not a chemist, so it's difficult for me to really understand what they are talking about when they start comparing the different forms of copper.
But No I'm not interested in doing what everyone else is doing, without understanding it first. 
I understand that I'm annoying, and kick me off if it's too bad. But honesty, this is the only list around with long time successful breeders and there is a great deal to be learned from you. 
I can't completely believe in what some holistically minded people say, and I can't fully believe in what you say either. We obviously have different approaches to thinking about our goats. 

And no- I would not rather be "herbally, holistically right" if it comes down to it. I want to the best thing for my goats. This is why I say holistic rather than organic or some other label that implies, no chemicals, nor horemones, no blah, blah, blah. I will use what I think is right for them. 
I am not fully convinced that copper sulfate is just poison and useless. I see many exceptions in the way it is given and how often. And yet my animals are on it and they look great. I don't have any problem with disclosing what I feed my goats to my milk customers, some have asked for these details and I gave it to them. No complaints. So do you see where I am coming from?


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

" am not fully convinced that copper sulfate is just poison and useless"


I think it is , if given to much at one time.....just like iodine, oxygen, lead, and a billion other compounds that we consume regularly.


Dangit.....I wouldn't gonna post anymore to this thread :crazy


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Laughing about it is better than getting mad, Kaye.


I wasn't mad...I was disgusted by the sarcasim. We try our very best here to keep that out of our forum. Making it more enjoyable than other forums. Reason I very seldom if ever post other places. We ALL started as beginners and each and everyone has personal expericences and knowledge to share, not belittle people and make fun of them. Yes, we joke among ourselves but not to the point it is offensive.
Kaye


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

From Aja-Sumati post #21. Did you mention before that the copper in techmaster is copper oxide instead of copper sulfate? You mean we shouldn't be mixing up solutions of root killer and drenching our goats? Big Grin

And it is a tiny world if you have goats LOL"

Yeah, it's a tiny bit difficult not to be offended by that comment, when I am the one who is drenching my goats with root killer. Maybe this wasn't meant in a nasty way. It's difficult to tell by written word alone. I choose not to be mad at it but just poke fun at my so called "poisoned" goats. My reply was not sarcastic in a mean way. My smiley's choose not to show up in my posts, so I can't put friendly grins in my replies. 

I'm sorry that my attempt at humor was offensive.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You don't get kicked off for being annoying, you get kicked off for being ugly to others. If you have information than give it...but saying your goats look good isn't helpful. Her goats looked good also. My goats look good. But you can't come into a conversation with science behind our view, and just say..."bunk my way is just as good because my goats look good". And if you way is working can you help someone on the forum reproduce what you are doing? Keeping records on how much and when you give it...thats helpful.

I simply won't sit and allow this forum to turn into a forum filled with old wives tails and really bad management. There are already way to many of those around to waste new folks time on. Vicki


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

Jo,

For some reason you seem to want to drag this on and on. I can tell you that I for one am getting tired of your ranting. We are all adults and should be capable of adult conversation. You have been told more than once to drop it and let it be. I have refrained from making any posts directed towards you but here you go:

GIVE IT A REST ALREADY! You have made your point. 

It wouldn't hurt to keep in mind that others are not the only ones that may come across "offensive". You came into this topic with guns blazing and then got upset when others disagreed. Aren't you fairly new into goats? We have a lot of experienced breeders on this forum who are willing to share their years of knowledge. It pays to listen up. None of us claim to know it all and we can all learn from each other.

Sara


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

I think you would understand my ideas better if you would understand that I am NOT saying my way is better than yours. I really don't approach this in that way.

My personal experience is just all that I have. I'm not claiming to know if all, I'm not ranting. I'm trying to understand why this works for me in my situation but doesn't work for others.

The moment copper sulfate is mentioned, a number of post fallow that "it is poison and shouldn't be used" I see this kind of answer as cutting off any kind of conversation about it. Are we all supposed to_ just_ agree? And I just don't get it, you know? I have read the copper info at saanendoah, the salt institute, pat colby, sustainable ag and other alternative research groups, and it all seems to be a little different.

Sorry for the blazing guns, guys. That is just my way of being precise, to say what I mean and not be wishy-washy. I do appreciate the information you have shared with me.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"different soils, even in the same terrain/area."

on our ten acres we have no less than three distinct soil types as proven by soil testing.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"What is interesting is that the nutritionist gave the dairy a mix that had extremely high levels of copper in it, when a bolus probably would have been better for them."

But more work


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

This thread reminds me of HT and this is my hide-out from HT...now what?


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, here's another approach to copper supplementation.

I use Solgar chelated copper tablets: everyone takes them readily by mouth. Copper as glycinate amino acid chelate 2.5 mg per tablet.

Dosage is daily for two months in the fall. I assume I'm seeing signs of copper deficiency when there's undigested grain in goat berries, roaning in a coat. 

Boluses would be cheaper but my technique is not good and I'm concerned about overdosing.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Boluses would be cheaper but my technique is not good and I'm concerned about overdosing.
...................

Tricia I think you meant that my technique is good and I'm NOT concerened about overdosing ! Love it! Vicki


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Ah, my bolusing technique is not good and I'm concerned with overdosing with boluses. There, clearer!


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## Beverrlly (Nov 12, 2007)

Tricia Smith said:


> Well, here's another approach to copper supplementation.
> 
> I use Solgar chelated copper tablets: everyone takes them readily by mouth. Copper as glycinate amino acid chelate 2.5 mg per tablet.
> 
> ...


Where could I get these tablets? We have decent copper here and I have only noted deficiency signs in one goat so I am concerned about overdosing as well. Thanks!


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

You can get them on-line from a vitamin shop or any retailer that carries Solgar vitamins and minerals.


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

Maxi Min Caprine Minerals, are relatively new and developed with professionals and a lot of research. High in Cobalt, selenium and copper and people using them get excellent results. Mary Kellogg is the motive force behind this project/company and she can be reached at [email protected]

There is evidence that even Toggs (notorious for off flavored milk) getting enough cobalt produce sweet tasting milk.

When Mary gets the info and research to me, I plan to write a long article about minerals.

Just fyi,
Ellie


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Ellie, have you tried this mineral with your goats before?


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

Nope, unfortunately I learned about it fairly recently and don't have any goats at the moment (I have two new knees though and am almost ready to get back into it!!) 

Email Mary for the literature, thought it's very convincing. I sat across from her at Convntion so got to se the minerals and read about the why's and where-fores!


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

You can also get a good basic mineral with 1800ppm copper and 50ppm selenium with sweetLix Meat Maker (good price if the feed store carries it...and you might have to call around and see if a feed store can order it in too). then we just buy a 50 lb. block of cobalt and put it out free choice. Our girls do a pretty good job of
whittling it down too.

Interesting note: 15 dairy goats go through a cobalt block 2X as fast as 30 boer goats....

Camille


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I visited two herds today- less than 5 miles apart as the crow flies- same management- one herd had all bald tails & the other was fine :lol Neither herd boluses...


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## baileybunch (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Copper toxicosis in dairy goats-Maxi-Min Minerals*

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=382.0

Here is the link to a post about the Maxi-Min Caprine Minerals with contact information. 
Susie


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Did I read that correctly? Two new knees? Congrats!


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

Yes, TWO, and six months ago I wouldn't have recommended it to anyone. Now I'm starting to be glad I did it and am getting some mobility back. Goats are in my future now and for a long time I didn't think they were going to be...


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Bionic woman.


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