# Very bad kidding/how to save the doe



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I helped a friend earlier whose doe was having a hard time. She had a kid presented head first, no legs. We tried and tried to bring at least one leg up, but there just wasn't room, so my friend tried pulling it out by the head. The kid had obviously died beforehand; it's hair was falling out. Things were getting kind of dried out, so we lubed her up really well, shoved the head back in, pulled the legs up, and tried to get it out that way....no luck. The uterus or vagina tore-I felt her anus.  So, my friend decided to put her down and see if there might be another kid inside that could possibly be saved...nope. This doe had had some labor-like signs, a few days before, but never lost her ligaments...even with the kid hanging out, lig's were still intact...weird...which I think also contributed to the problem/no room at all in there. My hands are bruised.

First, any ideas what the deal was with her not loosening up? Was it ringwomb?? But it was tight right at the vaginal/pelvic opening.

Second, was there any way, besides a c-section, that might have saved this doe? I think possibly that shoving the head back in caused the tear. If we had just hacked the head off, could that had helped?

The other reason she decided to put her down was that she had a hard time with a single buck last year as well, so probably would have been culled for it anyway.

It was all very sad.

Then, another friend called with a baby that needed tubing...sigh. But I think he'll be okay. He got bo-se, and he seems to be pretty active really.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Nancy, there doesn't seem to be enough detail about the doe. Why was she put down? Did I miss something?

I had/have a doe that, two years in a row, kidded with a single LARGE buckling. She had a narrow pelvis. Her ligs softened, but the pelvis itself was too narrow. The first year (it was my first kidding), we lost the buckling. The second year, I couldn't get it out and had to call the vet. He couldn't get it out. He had me go back in because my hand is smaller. Had her on her back (ugh). No luck. Both times, there was one leg back. There was NO room to maneuver. The second kidding (2nd for me, 3rd for the doe), the vet had to cut the head off the kid. Even after that, we had a heck of a time getting that kid out. The doe was saved and I never bred her again. That's my cents.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

This doe was 8 years old, had kidded before, no problems...LA scores as a 6 year old, just looked it up, showed a score of 36 for rump, so don't think she was normally that narrow, things just weren't loosening up for some reason.

She was put down because her vagina or uterus tore...I could feel her anus through the hole and some bright red blood was coming out (when we opened her abdomen after putting her down, blood pumped from it)...and because we could NOT get the kid out, the doe was worn out, she didn't want to c-section her...and was already torn by then. We should have hacked the kid up instead of shoving it back in...that was a bad idea.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's best to have a clear idea of what you are going to do before you start. Cutting the head off would of course been the least traumatic to the doe, but then being there for the doe as she goes into labor and feeling that she is laboring with front feet back, getting to the head and pushing it back before the head is delivered, before the kid dies from asphyxia. It sounds like everything was way to far gone to help at all. Pulling a big kid head first is never going to turn out well for the doe, you are going to kill her or ruin her reproductive health so mercifully put her down and get kids out that way. It's amazing to me when women would choose this route, it's usually something done by men who don't understand you only have a finite amount of room and how much area across a chest with legs back is coming with a large kid...like OMG OUCH if you have every pushed a child out yourself. 

You also have to know when you are in over your head, call for help from a seasoned breeder if you don't want to pay a vet.

It isn't ring womb if a head is delivered. Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Thanks.

I don't know if I said this, but the kid was long dead; my hand stunk when I pulled it out of the doe, it's fur was coming off, his chest was sunken in, and the umbilical cord had a brownish yucky look to it.

My friend has had goats for awhile, but she's kind of getting old and maybe losing her head a bit. I wouldn't have chosen to pull on that kid by it's head, but it's her doe, so I didn't say anything. There literally are no other experienced breeders nearby willing to help when someone actually needs it...I know of only one that lives close enough who says she will help, but won't answer her phone.  My friend has a good vet, but didn't want to use him...


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'd say she didn't have normal labor because there wasn't a live kid. Lute may have helped or maybe not. I had one deliver a dead kid, only it had died about halfway through pregnancy and was just tiny. She, also, did not lose her ligaments. I luted her twice but she would never open up enough for me to even get my hand in (was trying to get the placenta out). So I just let her be and she was fine and kidded back in November no trouble. She absorbed the placenta in the meantime.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I think Ashley's on to something. The kid plays a part in the hormonal pathway to delivery. Sounds like her body couldn't muster up enough hormones on her own to get the kid delivered properly.


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## nlhayesp (Apr 19, 2012)

I had a doe go into labor on her due date, but struggle terribly. When I went in to check, all I felt was a head. This was when I was very new to goats, so I called the vet. It took a long time for him to pull out a kid that had been dead at least a week. The doe died a few days later. The vet said that the kid provides hormones and stimulus to aide, maintain, and control labor, as well as position itself properly for birth. It is a team effort on the part of mother and baby. If the kid is full term and dead, the placenta is compromised as well, and so it will be a very dificult birth. The fact that this doe was aged only compounded the bad situation. The bacteria that was decomposing the kid was also working on her uterus and vagina, causing them to become fraile. She was rotting from the inside. While tissue thin, the uterus and vagina can hold up to a lot of stretching, and under normal circumstances wouldn't tear so badly. You and your friend can take comfort that this was a tragedy before you were aware of it. Believe me, I still remember my Salome and her buck kid many years later.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Yes, a pregnancy with stillborn babies to deliver can have that kind of complications: lack of dilation, no contractions, etc. But the fact that the whole head was pushed out by the doe maybe indicates that the doe had been working for quite a while, and that possibly she had signs of trouble before that were missed by the doe's owner. In cases like this if you see the trouble before it becomes a trainwreck, maybe you can still intervene and save the doe. 

Two years ago I had a yearling doe here that was 2 days after her due date (LaMancha, I think they do tend to carry a bit over the due date usually), and she seemed a bit off at milking time. When I have does on their due date, I never leave the barn more for more than 2 1/2 hours, which for me is the 'time-from-nothing-to-time to-fix-the-trainwreck'. If I can't walk into the barn myself, I ask someone else to do it (again: not always, kidding time only). Anyway, next barncheck this doe had some slime coming out. Usually that's just an indication that things are getting started, but in this case the slime wasn't clear but yellow/brown and that indicates meconium: dead kid or kid under severe stress, immediate action required. I felt up the doe, she was barely dilated, maybe 1 1/2 inches, but I worked on opening her up a bit and sure enough, more meconium came out and when I was able to figure out the mess I was feeling in the uterus, I could find a leg, which came off: kids already dead for a while. At that time you know further dilation is not going to happen naturally, the normal hormones that initiate dilation and contractions are not going to be avilable. In the case of this doe I could get the two kids off in parts, and I flushed the uterus immediately after, and again later that day. I luted the doe to help her clean out, put her on penicillin for three days and took care off her as after a normal delivery (warm water, feed, etc). She came back to her healthy self and kidded the next year without any problem. I think If I had been a few hours later to intervene with that doe, she might not have made it, or I would have had a delivery on hand like you describe, since dead kids usually do not present well, like live ones do. 

Very sorry this happened to your friend, we can't save 'em all, but it does pay off to spend a lot of time in the barn around kidding time.

Marion


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks for sharing this info with us. 

I did have a Nigerian deliver a very small kid with just her head and no legs showing. But she was under 2 pounds and I think that made a difference. Her next kid was 4 pounds and I had to really pull (it was a normal presentation).

But I don't know what I would have done in your situation; my instinct is to just pull and get it out of there! Good to keep reading these scenarios so I can learn what is best to do.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

This is why I don't like second hand help on the forum, those of us who have delivered kids awhile no darn well the head was delivered hours ago, then found with a dead kid when no help of any kind was there during the first part of labor. The doe likely labored against this live kid for hours if not overnight, then when found, it was dead, swollen the doe exhausted and dying herself.

And we need that refresher course from Cindi on lutelyse, what it can and can't do, how long it takes to work and the use of oxytocin instead. Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I know what you are saying...this doe was in trouble for awhile. It is hard to know exactly what was going on in this situation...but this time at least, I don't really blame my friend (now the time she left the house when she knew darn well 2 does were in labor, and did again the next day when a CAE+ doe was, that was infuriating). But, this time was hard to know the doe was in labor, because she wasn't doing anything like normal...keeping lig's, etc. When this doe was a week past any other doe kidding out of this mess (bucks were with does in August)...when she was past any possible normal due date (but my friend thought she might have bred thru the fence)...then she probably should have been lute'd at the least. I just hope my friend learned something from this....


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

I have helped several does kid with both feet back against the stomach without issue it seems less tramactic then trying to manipulate the kids. Now most of these where where not my goats but learning that sometimes with a huge head it may be easier for just the head to come with legs against the bottom of the stomach of course its a problem if they are not flat pointing backwards.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Head first (and only) is only feasible if the doe has enough dilation and space to begin with. It isn't the size of the head that's the problem: the width of the shoulderblades in the position with the legs bent backwards is larger than with the legs sticking forward. It's the shoulderblades that get stuck, not the head. Next largest/widest are the hips, that's why with a very large kid it helps if you have delivered the front legs and head to twist it 90 degrees so the kids hips fit easier through the does pelvic bone.
Marion


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

:yeahthat The shoulders get very stuck in the head-only position. This kid still wouldn't come after we put his head back in either. 

I just wanted to get confirmation here that 1. cutting the head off would have been the better way in this kind of situation, and 2. pulling head-only was a bad idea. It sounds like most are in agreement on that. Just something to think about if something like this ever happens again (I hope it doesn't!)

Some more considerations...if this kid had been still alive, and someone did not get out there soon enough and his head was delivered, would there be any options for saving both kid and doe? If a c-section were quickly performed, could a kid be saved whose head was already delivered (assuming it was alive when delivered)? Or would there just not be enough time before the kid suffocated/strangled?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Do this right now. Put your hands over your head like you are diving, see how narrow your shoulders collapse down? Now put your hands to your sides, at your stomach at your sides or to the back, none of this makes the width of your shoulders smaller.

PLEASE do not pull kid without at least one leg forward, preferably two. It isn't about just killing her, it's also about saving her reproductive health.

DO NOT let the head come out without you knowing the hooves are right there first. Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Yes, I understand that. I have always been present at my does' births, and when they push I shove a couple fingers in to check position. However, "stuff happens", especially if it's someone else's goat who you have no control over them. Anyway, sounds like the only solution in this already messed up situation, would have been to get the kid out in pieces or have a c-section performed. Both of us tried several times to get the legs/leg up, but there wasn't enough room with the head in the way...if there's ever a next time, I'll just tell my friend to call the vet...


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

:yeahthat If a doe is in the first stages of kidding and things don't progress fast enough, I feel her up. If I feel a snout but nothing else, it's usually not a big deal to find both front feet (if you're early enough) and place the kid correctly before I deliver. Usually the legs are folded back, so be careful and cup your hand around the hoofs while you fold the leg forward to prevent tearing. If a head and one leg are already in the birth canal, I try to find the other leg, but if I can't get it right quickly I deliver like that (never had a problem delivering the kid that way). Then there's the times you just feel a little tail :really I usually do not try to turn the whole kid then (I still think it is sooooooooooo much easier to turn a calf - basically always a single and so much more space), but I do push the butt back a bit and find 2 legs (making sure hocks are pointing up, toes pointing down). I have never had a problem delivering a breech kid. 

I think the biggest problems with kidding arise if you are too late (like the above story) or, if you are on time and think you are in a hurry to get that kid off and get all nervous and impatient. I did that my first few times, but if you are on time and the kid is not yet or barely into the birth canal, realize that you do have time, stay calm, picture in your mind what exactly you are feeling (it can be tricky if you feel 5 or 6 legs, it happens with those crazy goats ) and fix it, then deliver.

Nothing beats the feeling of a delivery gone well, wether the doe did it all by herself (best!) or wether it was done in teamwork by you and the doe. 
Marion


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## Angelknitter12 (Feb 16, 2012)

It didn't help that this was an almost twelve pound baby. That is a huge baby, no? Would that have been from swelling?


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Well, that's what she was guestimating it at...didn't weigh it though, but it was pretty huge! I think it was probably more like 10 lbs, comparing to my babies I have right now...kind of hard to tell, since its chest was sunken in, etc.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

fmg said:


> If the doe had just come into labor and the kid was presenting head only, yes, both could likely be saved by having a C section. I had this happen twice with FF's. My DH tried pulling them that way and of course, that wouldn't work when a yearling was trying to deliver a large buckling. In both cases, I loaded the does and drove 30 miles to the vet. In both cases, not only did I save the does and kids, but both does went on to be productive in subsequent years and had no problems with delivery.


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