# Stunted doeling



## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm goat sitting for freinds this week. They have a doeling who was born in May and she's tiny. She's out of my bloodlines and none of my goats have failed to thrive like that. The dam was mine as a FF and her twins grew out well. Last fall, she was bred to one of my bucks. They leased one of my boys and he was closely related to this one doe. What I'm wondering is the cause of the doelings issue. I've come up with three probabilities. 1. the kid is 29% inbred, 2. She was raised on milk replacer so the family could drink the dam's milk. We had stunted wethers raised on replacer our first year in goats. 3. She may have had cocci as a baby. They gave her a course of Albon, but did not repeat in 21 days. The doe was bred to a more unrelated buck this year and I also offered to give them goat milk for kids and suggested they raise the next crop of kids on virgin ground.
I'm also wondering if a stunted goat like this can conceive. They had the buck in with her at their house assuming she wouldn't cycle. I told them to preg test in a month and abort her if she's bred. The only reason they have not culled her is that she's the pet of their young disabled daughter who chose her at birth.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

just how stunted are you talking, Kathy? approx weight? i'm assuming a nubian, right? if shes small and a 2010 baby i'd leave her open too, as you suggested; she may gain over the winter.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And G6S. It's why I tell new folks the 100 pound rule. You have to be on top of your management to get kids to 100 pounds that first breeding season.

Without help most new folks first kids don't thrive, the feed store guy, their vet, their grandfather who had goats before they were born, all know so much more than the breeder they purchased from...you do have to let them ruin a few goats before they get it  Some people are simply just like that. Unless she has a kidding difficulty it is their goats to have them stunted and small, nursing kids, untested, feet untrimmed...we have to just go with the flow until they ask for help. Vicki


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

This kid is about as small as a three month old. She's probably not half as big as my June doeling, Natasha. She can be carried, which is not the case with Natasha. I'll have to weigh tape her. I thought of G6S too, but if that were the case, I'd think I would have had the same problem with my goats carrying the same bloodlines. The sire is out of Lonesome Doe Obadiah and Saada Winter Day. He's the one who is the biggest contributor to the inbreeding. They feed a nice alfalfa grass mix hay.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

While it certainly is likely that if you had a number of goats from those same bloodlines, that G6S would have shown up before this, since it's recessive, it's not impossible that you have just not seen it manifest itself yet.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We know there are animals of all bloodlines with G6S including mine...Bab's is a carrier and although I have tested her two litters here and destroyed 3 bucklings who were also carriers, and have two daughters who are not carriers, she kidded before here with sold kids not tested and freshened at 2 other farms including her home farm. Saada and alot of other bloodlines have animals who are G6S carriers as listed on the nubian talk list. This can't be treated like a dirty little secret like CAE was, it must be tested for, admitted and you go on. We have to take this whole Personalites vs Bloodlines out of this and do what is best for the breed. People are not putting their carrier animals up on the Nubian Talk site, this is simply a disservice to the breed. None of us raise all of our kids to adulthood to know, unless you test, if we have this in our lines. How many unthrifty stunted kids out there have G6S, yet it's blamed on the new owners management of paraistes...I can't imgaine how many times I have rolled my eyes at how new people ruin a doeling of mine...was she G6S positive, I honestly do not know. I do know with having super buck and some other known carriers in my old bloodlines I am sure the answer was yes. I have now all but my new buck tested, and my adult doe herd (thankfully negative), only a smattering of younger does need to be tested here now who are not related to dams who are here still. So although Obediah would be G6S negative on parentage, who was the doe he was bred to....and with both Bab's and the Saada buck (blue flame or something like that) listed in Nubian Talk data base, are they related to Winter Day? 

Stacy at one time or another I have had 6 different Saada dam bloodlines here, only Bab's has tested carrier...so even in a very linebred herd it is specific in which animal is throwing it. In this instance the carrier is not who the genepool was condensed down on, in other herds it is.

But without enough information we can't figure it out. And we don't have enough information. And being stunted and small, G6S is a viable answer. It should be no worse or better answer than cocci or worms. And should not be a stich hunt. Vicki


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

> Stacy at one time or another I have had 6 different Saada dam bloodlines here, only Bab's has tested carrier...so even in a very linebred herd it is specific in which animal is throwing it.


Of course it is. I just meant that unless you know that the immediate sire and dam are not carriers, and barring that, that there are definitely not carriers further up in the chain (because someone tested), that just not having had a G6S goat out of those lines (that you know of, anyway) doesn't mean that it couldn't happen now, however unlikely that might seem. You might just have gotten lucky before.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Who does the tests for G6S? I don't have Gabriel anymore, but it would be a good idea to test my bucks and foundation does.


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

With all the goat breeders complaining about testing for CAE and CL (too much money...really at only $4-$6/test) you really think they want to test for G6S???
It cost $30 at A&M. It can become very costly for someone with a large group of Nubian's and Nubian crosses. I started months ago testing my small herd and have only been purchasing G6S negative stock. Many of the breeders I contacted, and wanted to put deposits down for 2011 breeding's, didn't even test for G6S. They lost my sale!
Linda


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I just weighed Lucy. She only weighs 30 pounds! I couldn't catch Natasha (dam raised and wild) to tape her, but my guesstimate is that she weighs 70-80 pounds and she's a twin out of a yearling. Both kids are from the same dam line and Natasha's sire is a Gabriel son. After observing all four goats I'm sitting for, I seriously am thinking a management issue rather than G6S. Ricky, a wether I sold them along with his yearling dam is also small for his age. He was born 4/21 and, while bigger than Lucy, is also smaller than Natasha born 6/7. He was dam raised. Lucy's dam, Maggie, while not emaciated, is underweight compared to my milkers and she's been dried up. I also haven't seen the growth I'd hoped to on Ricky's dam, Shamrock. I bought back Grayce from them and while she was smaller than Shamrock when I took her back, she's now a bit bigger under my management. I'm going to have to have a serious talk with the family about management. They need to have them fecaled to see if worms are the issue. They didn't want to use Ivomec when they were drinking the milk, so I'd be worming them soon - after 30 days bred so they will be able to grow their kids properly. I'll also see if they are feeding enough hay and add some grain to their diet. They are really nice folks and seem to want to learn, so I hope these goats will start looking better.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Lab is in Texas and the shipping info is in goatkeeping 101. Linda I know alot of people who have slowly started testing their herd, usually their bucks first, and then their senior does who have the most progeny in the barn. It's a start. The more buyers who ask for babies out of only G6S tested negative stock, the more breeders who will test. Vicki


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Parasites (worms and coccidia) pneumonia are causes of unthriftiness. Kids on milk replacer with chronic diarrhea also will be unthrifty. Find out if the kid was given a good quality milk replacer that is for goats. Some calf replacer is only soy products.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Tim, I do think the milk replacer played a part. Her sister was small, too, but not as small as she is. They sold the sister. Both kids had diarreah. They were given only the one course of Albon for it. My first year in goats, we had alot that didn't grow out right and I do not believe they had much of an immune system even though they had adequate colostrum. We fed replacer for goats, but alot of the wethers and bucklings were stunted and some got what I believe to be cocci and later some died of what looked like entero in spite of being vaccinated. We got them from a dairy and were raising them to sell for meat. It was a disaster. The doelings I also raised on replacer did better and grew, but still did not live past four years old. I just will not do replacer again with my herd. They do better on store milk if I'm short on goat milk.


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