# Big ol' bummer



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Well, got my CAE results back. All my lovely hardy grades are negative. But I won't be taking my fancy long earred yearling up north. She is positive. Also the high producing doe whose bag went bad at kidding. I was suspicious of her. I planned to cull her anyway, but am sad about her pretty little doeling. Thankfully she only fed her kids and no one else's. My good ol' 5 year old grade Nubian herd queen Birdie is a zero!! Bless you Birdie!!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

And poo poo on that silly vet who blew me off when I took my doe in with the bad bag and asked if it could be CAE! I'm going to send him a copy of the results!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Get your money back. Send the breeder the test results, there is no excuse anymore. Plus with so few folks testing breeders does, because they believe they are negative, the breeder is touting raising everything on prevention, the breeder needs to know she is still having positives at her farm. I would want to know. 

And it is exactly like I said when you first posted about you not testing your herd....most new folks come on our forum, finally test and do find positive does in their herd....and your lucky it isn't more than just a ruined kid crop of this does...and if you had other nursing kids in the pen you can't even be sure that none of them snuck a snack off of her....you will be blaming all your positive kids on this doe, they are pariahs to your herd. Vicki


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Very sorry to hear you are yet one more addition to the CAE + sold list . I can say we've been there and done that too. It didn't take us long to get negative by strict culling and putting attachment aside.
This would be why we advocate so much for testing. When I sell or talk with new folks I do tell them about CAE and diseases and how to prevent oopsies for coming in after getting a negative herd started.
Tam


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I was going to give them to the neighbor as brush goats. He won't bred them. Thankfully the milker freshened late after the other kids weaned. There wasn't much of a kid crop this year, I have 3 doelings with 0, 4 and 13 titers. Seems pretty safe to keep them? I don't intend to bring in anything else. I plan to cut 7, get rid of the pesky bucklings, and close the herd. I'll keep testing to make sure the rest remain negative.

Lol, it is kind of annoying had no test positives until I went trying to buy fancier goats. I knew my ol' grades were just fine. So much for vanity!


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

If you actually bought that doe from Bev Goldthwaite, I'd ask her for your money back. I'm sure she'll do right by you. She told me that if I ever bought a kid from her that didn't conceive or had a defective udder, she'd replace it.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Sorry, I don't want to misrepresent. The doe is from those lines but not that farm. I bought her off a second owner too. The second owner had just tested her with biotracking and she was negative. I have only had her a short time, so it is kind of a mystery why she would turn negative. It is actually very creepy. Makes me want only goats with 0 titers, but I guess that is taking it too far.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Kathie if I am reading her post correctly it is Goldthwaite bloodlines but not Goldthwaite bred.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Did you actually see copies of this doe's negative test results? It is very unusual for an adult goat to get CAE. I bought 3 positive goats from a woman who had a "negative herd" and I told her about it, and she still doesn't beleive me.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

We have uncovered that this was a failed prevention. Mom is positive. She was pulled and fed cows milk, but apparently something went wrong somewhere. We are working it out. Poor little girl.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You are not going to get 0 very often, lots of things react to the test, stress, illness, vaccination etc..


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

The only goat we've had a 0 on is our buck. I just figure he is really the least stressed of any in the herd...or was at the time of the test, LOL.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Well you are to be commended for testing. I am sorry for the heartache of finding positive goats but you are doing the right thing to allow these goats to become brush eaters for your neighbor. Eliminating positive animals from your herd is the best way to keep future incidents of this disease from occurring. 

I made the decision to cull by butchering CAE positive animals many years ago and now have nearly 20 years of CAE negative testing. Now, each test makes me glad that we made this tough decision.


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## RoaminRoanAcres (Jan 5, 2011)

Be careful when saying things like my so-and-so doe has CAE. People will think that you mean the animal was purchased from that farm directly, and that is how rumors get started.

The two does I originally had that I came to find were CAE positive were from a BIG national breeder. However, this breeder hasn't had CAE in their herd for years, and they test annually. The does went to a farm where there are other positive animals, the lady doesn't "believe" in testing (I think becuase it would force her to reevaluate her herd), and doesn't clean the milking machines between all of the does. No shock they got CAE now that I am more educated about it. Needless to say, I hesitate to say the name of the herd they came from for fear of starting rumors from those that don't have the full picture.

Also, there are ways to fudge results too. A friend sold a CAE positive goat from a breeder (same one). She sold the goat as CAE positive, WITH the biotracking papers to show the results etc. NOTHING was hidden. This same said breeder ended up getting the doe back, retested her RIGHT before kidding and then sold her as negative to another person. :/ I am guessing that all of the antibodies were put into the colostrum enough to make the results show low enough to get a negative test.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Good guess but my guess would be that she pulled blood from a negative goat and sent that in for testing and put the negative test with the positive goat. Dishonest people are well... dishonest.


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

> CAE positive were from a BIG national breeder.


 What?????? :tearhair :tearhair A Big national breeder that has goats w/ CAE???? :crazy :crazy How Shocking! :yeahthat Sadly, this is more common than one realizes. And although we expect top breeders of national award winning goats to do better, it has no bearing on the status of the breeder or not....CAE is CAE and that's that!


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## RoaminRoanAcres (Jan 5, 2011)

LOL Sorry- didn't mean to imply that all big breeders don't have CAE- but this breeder is an anti CAE nut, runs a clean herd, and has tests to prove it. :biggrin


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I also would have this doe retested with a different lab just to make sure.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The two does I originally had that I came to find were CAE positive were from a BIG national breeder. However, this breeder hasn't had CAE in their herd for years, and they test annually...........................
......................................

Than even as an adult the doe would be negative. I am not sure how any of our herds became negative, like Tim's, like mine when it is SO EASY to catch CAE, showing, milking machines, sneezing....I am being sarcastic here. 99.9% of positive goats, got that way from drinking CAE infected colostrum. You break the colostrum/milk barrier, you simply won't have positive does. Nobody knows another persons herd, we only know ours, why no matter who I buy from I test the kid/goat when it gets here.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Well, I have to concede the testing is a good idea. I have no doubt the one doe's mysterious udder problem was CAE and not overuddering. If I had tested her when I got her, even if I couldn't have returned her, I could have pulled the kids. Now these very nice kids are a loss. I think I have decided to send her and the kids to the auction, and give my neighbor clean goats. It means less money for me, but this way if he decides he loves having goats and wants to breed, he won't be tempted to breed her. The other doe is going back to the seller. The seller helped me draw the blood to test the herd, so I know she is as shocked and bummed as I am.

I agree I'm sorry I mentioned the bloodlines of the yearling. I was referring to a goat I had previously discussed with Vicki off the list, but I should have spoke more carefully on the list. Actually, I'm going to edit my posts and remove the references cause these things show up in searches.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

And Angie, this is another reason to practice CAE "prevention" even if the milk comes from a doe that is CAE-. It's just safer that way. Even if someone doesn't "plan" to sell any of their animals, that is usually not practical. Next spring, we are going to have to sell a couple of does and/or kids. Although I have a doe that I am milking that is CAE-, when it came to milk for the kids, I pasteurized anyway. And last year, when the only milk I had was from a CAE+ doe, I put the kids on store bought milk rather than pasteurize the milk. It was an added expense, but if/when I sell, I can honestly say that I DO practice prevention. And of course I will have the tests to prove it. 

A completely closed herd with a history of negative CAE testing results, may be a different story.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I sure hope the folks who buy these positive does don't end up on the forum, or on facebook, or??? then they get the heartbreak of finding out in a few more months that they are positive. If you don't need the money for the sale, than butcher them. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

It would be more ethical to put them down if you don't want to deal with them. That is just criminal to pass on positive goats under any circumstances because we all know no matter what people say they eventually get bred. It is a progressive disease and each time that doe freshens she will be in worse shape udder wise since she was already actively symptomatic. Most owners will not know how to cope and she will die of a secondary issue after being sick and miserable. It really is poor practice to pass on diseased animals. They would be better off in the freezer. And if you don't worry about the people buying them- worry about the animals- for their quality of life. It is different for each case of the disease but since she has already had udder issues it will only worsen. Please do the right thing and put them down.
Lee


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I'm confused at these comments. Are they directed at me? I am selling mine at the slaughter auction. One is returning to the seller. I thought it would be better for them to go to slaughter than give them to my neighbor for pets. I'm out the money either way, cause I'm sure they won't fetch much. Not understanding the criticism?


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Are you sure that the goats sold at the slaughter auction actually do go for slaughter? And do they have a tattoo? Say someone sees what will be some nice looking goats at the slaughter auction. They check for a tattoo or discover it and then they start tracing the tatt info. There is actually a yahoogroup for this. Can you see what direction this is going in? It happens a lot too! Maybe they decide to register those goats as Recorded Grades and then show them....and on and on and then maybe just maybe those goats get traced back to you. Whatever you do Angie be 100% sure, don't leave any avenues or opportunities open that could come back to bite you.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

That is horrible! What horrible people who go registering culls?!! Dang, that is just not right. I couldn't eat these; I'd choke. Maybe the neighbor would like to have a BBQ...


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I have had the folks at the butcher shop ask me if I wanted to buy some baby goats that had been sold to be butchered. Just mentioning that to say even selling directly to a butcher doesn't guarantee the animals won't end up on someone's farm.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Angie: I think what they're saying is that it can be a reality. Not just can be, but is.

Don't be worried that the comments are directed at you. It is a forum where WE ALL can learn. Comments are made so that someone who reads the forum, who never posts, gets the info. Ok, not all, but you get what I'm saying. This is an open forum (I think, right?). I think you can read the forum without ever being a "member" or whatever it's called. Maybe not. Anyway, not the point. Good information, or DISinformation, needs to be broadcasted. Don't take it personally. Your lesson is a lesson for ALL!

Unfortunately, it seems that too many of us keep learning this lesson. And then we find DGI.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

This forum is public. I read from it long before I joined because it comes up in search engines. I just wanted to make sure it was clear I would never ever sell a goat without full disclosure. I would just prefer to sell a goat for meat and know it had a purpose than just euthanize it. And we don't want to eat them ourselves.

That tattoo thing is disturbing. Maybe we need to have a way to record a goat as culled with the registries, so someone doesn't try to forge a signature to get paperwork.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

swgoats said:


> That is horrible! What horrible people who go registering culls?!! Dang, that is just not right. I couldn't eat these; I'd choke. Maybe the neighbor would like to have a BBQ...


The thing is, not all goats that go through an auction are diseased or defective. People do, at times, buy them at auctions for pets or breeding. My La Manchas go back to a doeling my friend got for me at an auction. She knew the breeder and that she had a clean herd. She had sold some does to a commercial dairy and didn't want to mess around with bottle babies, so she took them to the sale. Blossom was registered NOA and went on to become a champion. She always had negative CAE tests, as do her progeny. I've sold a few CAE negative milkers at the auction when I've had to reduce the herd. They were culls as far as show animals go, but they would have made good family milkers. When I've culled CAE positive animals, they went right to the meat buyer so no unexperienced breeders would wind up with them.
This reminds me of something. Last year I dropped a few wethers along with a doe who refused to let me milk her and a doeling I strongly thought was a hermie at my friends for the meat buyer to pick up. One of her friends wanted the doeling and knowing she was CAE negative she sold the man the goat after informing him she was likely sterile. Last week, I brought my wethers over to load on the meat truck and that man brought the little doe. Sure enough, she was sterile. She never even cycled. At least he had been forewarned and there were no hard feelings.


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

What typically happens with tatts and registrations: One can send a regsitered goat to the auction w/o papers. Joe buys said goat, sees tatts and how nice she looks, so goes online to breed group talk lists, asks ADGA, etc to track down owner. But w/o those papers the goat can never be registered unless the person re tatts and registers now as a recorded grade. Or......they breed said goat to a nice buck and then register the kids as recorded grades, and do nothing about her. But w/o original paperwork they can never register that goat unless the owner signs over. The papers now even have that pink oval for authenticity.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes my comments are directed at you. You own them. You tested them. You should be responsible for the way they end their lives. If you were a responsible owner you would stop thinking in terms of cost and personal feelings and put them down now and end their misery and end the transmission of this heartbreaking disease and if you are unwilling to use them as a resource either dog food- people food- chicken food whatever. Then you should dig a hole and bury them. END it with YOU. Not passing the responsibility to another person who also will not take it because maybe a pitiful bloody dollar can be made or it is just too 'hard'. No one should own livestock that is not willing to fire a gun and dig a hole.

I know of many owners of superior animals- fine productive young milking does with great potential that had been cared for in impeccable fashion that did the right thing and put them down when the tests came back positive. And they moved on with a clean herd. We have been collectively trying to end this disease for decades but it takes strength and determination. Try to live up to this standard so we can rid the national herd of this scourge that hurts so many ANIMALS. 

The buyers that claim they slaughter make money any way they can.
They are not obligated in any way to kill animals they buy. 
It is a complete abdication of responsibility to think you can hand it off to someone else and it will all go away.
Only in your world...not in the life of the poor animal. Scared to death at the auction- abused and treated like trash with no knowledgeable intervention until some lingering painful secondary illness kills them after days in pain and then in shock and finally ending in slow decline. Who would wish that on any creature? Think about it in terms of yourself.

Think about if YOU were sent to auction. Dominion over lesser creatures does not mean you have the right to abuse them even if you have no use for them. It means you are appointed to be their caretakers and do everything to make their lives the best that they can be or end it responsibly. What if someone locked you in a little box and sped you thrashing and flailing over bumpy roads with horrible sights and sounds flashing by and then threw you in a pen with hundreds of other distressed creatures all milling and crying and confused and then hit you and beat you so you would run scared for your life into a space with no one to guide you as to what to do with blasting noise and horrible frightening smells and then continued beatings with the noise to get you to leave and go back with the other horrified creatures and then poked and prodded as a group herded into a box that again hurtled jumping and tossing until you arrived at a blood soaked fear smelling pit from hell where you are somewhat stunned while they begin to cut your guts out. Really....can't you feel that inside yourself? Can't you imagine the fear and horror? Be an adult. Accept responsibility. I cannot imagine being so uncaring as to send animals to auction.

How can you care about anything but what the GOAT is going through? 
Why do humans think they and their feelings are superior? You are insulted and out some money. Big deal.

The goat is the one who is ill and will live ill and will die a sickening painful lingering death after a painful life.

You are expected to update your files with ADGA for each animal in your name as sold or died.
Lee


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I'm pretty sure there is NOTHING I could say that would please Lee, so I won't bother.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I don't really think CAE is always as huge a deal as people make it. Sure, it most definitely CAN be, but the 3 positives I mentioned before, have had NO clinical signs (so far) and the one doe is about the healthiest goat I have. These three are young though, about a year and a half. I don't have the one positive doe (I sold her as a pet with full disclosure, including a link to a very informative website, which I regret now); IF the other positive ever starts showing any signs at all, she will be put down, but right now, she has no arthritic problems at all and milks perfectly, with a perfectly healthy udder. The buck I do not like very much anyway, so we will probably butcher him regardless. But, in my opinion, if the animal is valuable to your breeding or milk sales, and they are not showing signs, then they don't necessarily have to be culled immediately...that seems a little dramatic to me. Just watch carefully and do be sure to cull when it does become necessary. And most Definitely if not willing to practice prevention with their kids, then cull.


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## RoaminRoanAcres (Jan 5, 2011)

fmg said:


> I don't really think CAE is always as huge a deal as people make it....... or milk sales, and they are not showing signs, then they don't necessarily have to be culled immediately...that seems a little dramatic to me. Just watch carefully and do be sure to cull when it does become necessary. And most Definitely if not willing to practice prevention with their kids, then cull.


CAE shouldn't be a big deal because it is so easily tested for. There really is no reason why it is affecting so many animals other then people not willing to cull. It is easy to say that you do everything, but what happens if there is a mistake? I heard of a breeder that did all the proper precaustions etc. She got sick, someone came over tohelp, and fed her babies the wrong milk- infected kids from her whole herd. One miscommunication- and its all over. Luckily, it was caught, but what if no one noticed? 
You say that you sell milk from your CAE positive doe. How do you know that the people don't feed it to kids? You're letting infected milk out of your control? (I am assuming that you sell it raw) Things like this is why this disease is still around. You can tell ol' Billy Bob who buys it not to use it for that until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean he won't do as he pleases once he's off your property.

You can't guarantee that you will be there for ALL kiddings
You can't guarantee that there won't be a simple confusion and the wrong milk fed
You can't guarantee that milk you sell won't be given to another animal.
You can't guarantee that it won't be transmitted by an accidental oversight on your part or someone helping you

All of the reasons are why we decided to run only clean animals. It is hard, no fun, and a kick in the teeth but if this has any chance of getting eliminated, then it is what people need to do. I am not trying to "pick" on you so please don't think that was my intention, but it just stood out how people do things (totally well meaning and innocently) like sending out infected milk without thinking of what could happen with it. There are plenty of amazing animals out there to be had without CAE. Just my opinion, and we all know what they say about those!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

If an animal is sold to auction please tatto the word CULL or MEAT over the identifying tattoo. It makes it so no one CAN reregister an animal.

That said people will still "save" an animal from auction and take them home. Just the facts. One thing about auction animals, bucks and wethers make it to the meat market. Does generally are bought dirt cheap by people looking to get goats just that...dirt cheap, or they would be calling the serious breeder that placed that animal there in the first place. 

Tam


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I guess an ad on craigs "cabrito, we shoot, you process" might work. I also think evil people are evil. What's to stop someone from putting your tattoo letters on their goats? Really nothing but the honor system.

I go out and look at that doeling skipping around and just get sick, but the thing is there are clean animals that are just as good *at every price range*. My $50 grade had 0 titers. With my personal situation of having three small kids, one severely disabled, I can't mess with prevention. I have to have a clean herd.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I am sure with a little digging we can find this same exact conversation back on the Goat Shed on MSN, there are several on here from my original forum..... in 1995.....how disgusting that there are still those who think CAE is no big deal after all this work. Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Okay, I didn't mean it was "no big deal". I know it IS a big deal. What I meant was more that it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be a death sentence. I understand and respect those who do what they feel they must....but some people that do have the time to deal with this, certainly can.



RoaminRoanAcres said:


> You say that you sell milk from your CAE positive doe. How do you know that the people don't feed it to kids?


This is something that does worry me. Luckily, I turn most of my milk into cheese, and I doubt that here in cheapo land people would pay the prices that goat milk costs to feed goat kids with. But, yes, this is indeed something that I have thought about and it bothers me....next year I am hoping to raise some butcher lambs on the positive doe (if she will accept them), and I am definitely going to have some calves, so either way, the milk will not be entering the human sales.

And don't worry I am not easily offended.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Wow, I agree that a sick animal should not be passed on to anyone else (and I believe Angie did have no intention to do so), but the description of an auction up there is a little overdone. 'Continued beatings'? Sorry a bit too much. People send animals to auctions since, especially if you have a larger farm, you can't eat everything yourself and neither can you 'dig a hole' if for example you would have a large dairy (cow) herd. Large Agribusinesses also usually take great care of their animals, but auctions do have a place and do not have to made look that evil. (No, I do not own a big agri business, nor do I own an auction, nor have I ever send one of my goats to an auction, but I work with large dairies and know they DO take great care of their animals). Felt like I needed to jump in and put things in perspective a bit here. Plus, hmm, don't we also 'throw our animals in a little moving box' when we take them to a show? Many of us do that and still feel we are good animal care givers.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree - selling at an auction is not necessarily a huge nightmare for the animal. The ones I've been to have LE officials standing around. No one would dare beat the animals or otherwise torture them.

The only thing I'll say is, once you sell an animal, you don't get to have a say in what happens to that animal. So if your intention is for the animal to be slaughtered, best to do it yourself... you can't tell if they really will slaughter or not, they might but they might figure they'll get more selling the goat to someone else. That's the risk. 

When I used to take my sheep and goats to the butcher's, I told them I wanted the heads and hides back. (They were horned sheep and goats and the mountain men would sometimes buy skulls from me.) I was perfectly willing to wait, and would sit in the parking lot. Because I did this, I am assured that every animal I took there was slaughtered that morning, that hour, while I waited. The animals did not have to wait in the pens; they did mine right away, because they knew I was "weird" that way. I had to take them to an approved facility to sell the meat legally, because it has to be slaughtered at a USDA facility so you can get that stamp on it, and I sold the meat to restaurants and private chefs. If I do them myself of course I can do them right here, but to sell legally I had to go to the approved slaughterhouse.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Marion I think it is safe to say that your state and many more have a far more active bureaucracy than Arkansas which has a very low tax base and so little enforcement of anything at any level. I am sorry to say I am not making up what happened at the auctions I quit attending. 
Most dairies here have regular buyers that come to the farm and pick up calves to take to growers. Most of them do not depend on 'auction' houses.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Well, I guess the moral is that if your are thinking about sending animals to the auction, attend one first and see how the animals are treated there.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes you do put your animals in little moving boxes to take them to shows but I daresay they are habituated to it and know it is part of their pampering and petting and that when it is all over they will go home and get back to normal routine. I had in mind that fact that the goats under discussion are quite wild since she has to use a dog to catch them or if not wild then certainly unused to travel which would cause additional fear and anxiety especially since they know body language and can read emotional conditions and respond accordingly adding one more stressor. And then arriving at a location fluxing with fear pheromones...well I don't think it sounds like a kind thing to do. The worst part the activities with goats I saw at auction was the self satisfied humans laughing at the distress of the animals as ring kids chased them around. I will never fathom why that is entertaining.

Yes good idea but learning to cull responsibly is a good idea as well. 
Lee


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## birdiegirl (Oct 26, 2007)

After working a long weekend shift, then spending last evening in the ER with a corneal abrasion from getting hay into my eye, I have finally gotten the time to sit down and post to this thread. 

I am the seller of the yearling doe that tested positive at Angie's place. I am also the person who drove out to her place and helped to teach her to draw the blood by herself. I drew the blood myself. Obviously, if I had any idea whatsoever that this goat would have tested positive for CAE, I would not have offered to be there. 

First off, I will state that I am INCREDIBLY sorry, and I have offered to refund Angie's money and take the doe back. 

So, for the record, my side of the story.  The doe came to my house in January, at the age of 6 months. At that time, I did not test her, she came from a good friend who assured me that, although they came from a (+) doe, they were absolutely pulled at birth, fed neg colostrum from an old doe that had tested neg, and had been raised on prevention. 
In March, the breeder CAE tested the sister to this doe, and she tested negative with a 0 titer, lending me to feel comfortable with the fact that this doe was probably negative as well, as they were raised together. 
In May, Angie bought the doe from me. At that time, I also had brought the sister doe here to my property. 

Now, my herd status is this: my goats were tested in Feb and in May. All negative except for 3 cases:
1) Victory Meadows Daydream- sold to me just fresh from same breeder. I knew she was positive. My intent was to use the milk for pets. She came to me with a hard udder, and I could not get any milk from her. I stopped trying and dried her up.
2)A Lamancha doe that freshened in Jan/Feb but was put down the day after kidding. 
3) Another doe that came bred from this same breeder- she sent her to me to kid out for her, I was to pull the kids for her as she was going through some hard time with her family. I sent the kids back to her and the doe was culled. 

The rest of my herd- some 20 goats, are negative. The reason why I kept taking goats that I knew were positive is this- my breeder friend was my local mentor- her goats all came from good pedigrees, and they were asymptomatic and healthy looking. She does not believe that CAE is a death sentence for goats, and she refused to cull half her herd and lose all her genetics on the basis of a test. Since I spent a lot of time with her, I became swayed, despite the fact that I hold Vicki and the members of this board in high regard, and much of my husbandry has been learned here. 
And, I have since learned that the dam of this doe is to be put down this week due to arthritis at the age of 6, although the breeder will deny to this day that it is CAE-related. 

So, back to Angie's doeling. Her initial breeder insists that she became CAE positive at my place, since her sister was tested before coming here and was negative. 
I have never seen this doe trying to nurse from another goat- she was a bottle baby and never knew a goat teat. (supposedly) I find it hard to believe that she did get the virus at my place, since everything that I have learned here tells me that 99% of CAE is contracted at birth or shortly thereafter.

I know I was wrong for not testing the doe before I sold her. That will NEVER NEVER happen again. I will also NEVER NEVER take someone's word, friend, mentor or otherwise. This is a hard lesson to learn. Anyway, my apologies to the forum for being an irresponsible goat seller and not testing..and to Angie, who knows how badly I feel and will make things right. I was as shocked as she was. 

Donna


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

> The worst part the activities with goats I saw at auction was the self satisfied humans laughing at the distress of the animals as ring kids chased them around. I will never fathom why that is entertaining.
> 
> Yes good idea but learning to cull responsibly is a good idea as well.
> Lee


Well said Lee! :handclap


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Donna, it sounds like you are learning a hard lesson, but it sounds to me like you are trying to do the right thing in all of it. Based on what you said, I don't know how the goat could have gotten CAE at your farm; can the breeder explain how that would have happened?


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## mathewsfive (May 2, 2010)

This may sound like a really dumb question, but I was under the impression that the doelings/bucklings had to be at least 9 months before they could be tested for CAE..... Is this not the case?


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

That is recommended because if the kid is fed pasteurized milk that is CAE +, they will falsely test positive for CAE even though they are not, due to the antibodies still being present in the milk. The CAE test is not checking for the virus itself, but for antibodies to the virus. Chuck @ Biotracking explained to me that it would take 4-8 weeks for antibodies to clear, and so, it depends on when they are weaned.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Be aware that if you dam raise you cannot be absolutely sure that those kids are not sneaking snacks from other dams. This is our first yr to dam raise since our first yr when we only had two does freshen (future freezer wethers are on their dams) and we were taken aback by the does that not only allow kids to nurse of them that are not theirs but actually steal each other's kids! So...if you do not KNOW that your girls are CAE negative it could get messy. 

Also be aware that in the end it ALL comes down to trust. Someone can show you herd-wide tests and you will know that they are truly from the entire herd, how? It is simply a matter of trust as anyone can draw blood from only does that they know are negative and divide the blood into enough samples to cover their herd. If people want to 'cheat' they will find a way. 

And NO, I do NOT know of nor have I even heard of anyone in particular that does that, I am simply cynical enough to see how very easily it can be done.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I appreciate your post Donna. You didn't have to do that. I appreciate your helping me test and doing the right thing. The other goat's breeder is uninformed. She bought from reputable breeders and so felt/feels safe. I think what has been suggested here to buy on contract and test yourself is the way to go. 

I can and do appreciate the fact that some test positives never have an issue with it. And I can see how Texans probably feel that goats will go to meat or worms before it becomes an issue for many. But with it ruining udders, I think most dairy people aren't going to want to deal with it. Even with my own small demand for milk, I want my goats to produce. Having to buy cow's milk to supplement kids cause the doe had only 1/2 a functional udder is nonsense. I'm just glad I tested before I culled, cause my initial impulse was to drop her as soon as I saw her bag was bad.

Not a big fan of regulation, but I'm wondering if testing shouldn't be a law. We have to pull Coggins on horses if they are leaving the property, and CAE is in the same category of diseases. Gosh, when we got married, it was even a law to have an HIV test...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

CL will be regulated long before CAE will be. CL is zoonic to all warm blood mammals, CAE is only passed between dam and kids via colostrum and milk, it is not a problem in humans so it won't ever be regulated. It also is not regulated by most breeders, so you have to protect your herd and your reputation. And LeeAnne is exactly correct, and why you simply have to know up front that no matter who you buy from you test that animal, that you get compensated in some form if that animal then tests positive at your farm. Pull blood the day the goat gets there, even if it has to sit in the fridge until the next week to send to biotracking.com This way, be it a kid or an adult...if it's positive it means that the person has to have CAE on their place. A kid can go back to negative if the colostrum was heat treated correctly a doe won't....I do with high negatives and a borderline case I had here after a sale, pay for the doe to be restested but also PCR tested....she was subsequently negative on both tests (Elissa and PCR) we can only surmise that she tested borderline due to being given a pasturella vaccine about 3 days before blood was pulled. But vaccine would never mean a doe is positive. Even a doe in labor did not rise her titer. 

And be it my many does and bucks I have purchased from Tim, or my bucks from Lynn Flemming (all negative) they were tested within the week of purchase, it is not about hurting feelings or not trusting someone, it is about my herd and my herd only.

Thank you Donna for sharing, if breeders are not willing to be open and honest about our problems, nobody can learn. Vicki


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> Vicki said it is about my herd and my herd only.


 :yeah that Everyone has to make sure that their herd is safe and stays safe. To me, it isn't a trust issue - it is about the sweat, tears and money that has been expended for my herd. I have given too much to take a chance.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Leeann pointed out one big reason that my vets are a big part in our disease prevention/testing. I have them help me draw the blood. I know I have back up when I say my herd is negative or only one is positive excetera (we are negative). Yeah it costs us money as Tim just pointed out. It took us awhile to get clean and I am dang sure going to have my vet back me up on testing, there is my proof and protection.
Animals need to be tested when they come in not later. Because we didn't that why we wound up with it. We test now all the time.

Donna and Angie..
I just wanted to thank you both for being frank and honest. Honest breeders are worth alot. I am sure from now on you both will have better protocol CAE. I won't chastize but praise the person who can admit there is an issue and learn by it. 
People who breed positive does though should have good sense enough though to not dam raise or use the dams milk or any of their dams' milk, but grocery bought whole milk for the sake of selling...or just don't sell. Unfortunately you've been caught in the "don't want to lose those genetic's" web which keeps this going
Just a sad ordeal all the way around. Live, learn, and lead. Thats where you go from here. I can say this because we were caught in the "I can't afford to test" web.
Tam


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

That is admirable, Tammy, but a huge cost when one has a larger herd. To be honest--it is a cost that is not recouped in animal sales if this is the main reason that one is doing the testing.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I will offer that service for deposited goats. Taking the goat to the vet, she reads tattoos and checks paperwork, pulls the blood and then I give my permission for you to call my vet and talk about that goat....but you are paying for it  V


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Donna, my hat is off to you and your honesty.


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

Donna: Didn't have a chance to say this earlier to you....but I want to commend you for having the guts :yeahthat to be upfront and candid about the situation. :handclap It takes grace and style to do that, especially on a public forum. Kudos to you!


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

As a side note, it is not that unusual for one kid born to a CAE+ doe to test positive while the other tests negative. I've seen it happen in a friend's herd several years ago.


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