# Show me a black toggenburg



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Does anybody have a picture of a black toggenburg? I tried running a Google image search and didn't find anything. The Dairy Goat History Group on Yahoo keeps talking about them, and I'm curious to see what they look like.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

A lady in WA or OR has a bunch in her herd...I am just not remembering her name right now!


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Tim and Mary Schmidt
Schmidt/ECF Toggs
Iowa

Tim & Mary Schmidt- 7th 2yr. (Tootsie), 6th 3yr (Black Betty) << Nationals placing
I don't have a photo but this info should help you : ) I don't know if they have a website, and this may be their only black animal.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Here is their herd brochure -- http://media.tripod.lycos.com/2091819/1523477.pdf Black Betty is on there.

They are the same coloring as a Sundgau Alpine.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Common language usage is sometimes confusing. 
When you call an animal black it implies a genetic pattern determiner for solid coloration. 
This is quite different genetically from an animal with markings on a base of black.
Any animal that has markings of other colors with the black is not considered a black animal but as mentioned above has a name indicating additional coloration (sundgau) or is referred to as black and tan etc.
Black as a color name is specifically used to indicate the lack of markings. 
It is generally accepted to mean solid black.

Lee


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eagle-Creek-Farm/279185813325#!/photo.php?fbid=423606348325&set=a.295211008325.146468.279185813325&type=3&theater

There facebook page, I figured since it is public it would be ok to post....if not Mods can you please remove and sorry!!!!!!!


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, Lee, but not in Toggs- all of the Togg breeders I know call them black Toggs, whether it is correct usage of the word or not :lol Wich is funny, becase black Obers are actually black! Still cannot find that website...


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

That is neat! I knew a black ober could pop up but I didn't know a black togg could.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

She doesn't have one single black hair on her - how can she be called a black goat?
Obviously Togg owners speak their own language...oh...I think I knew that :rofl
L


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, Black Betty "looks" black to me - and what a lovely doe to boot!


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

The stubble is black, Lee! Except in sungdau parts where it is white... :rofl


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Okay, I think I actually did see one of these at a show. The judge placed her 3rd I believe, and said she would have been placed 1st were it not for the incorrect coloring.


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## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

buckrun said:


> She doesn't have one single black hair on her - how can she be called a black goat?
> Obviously Togg owners speak their own language...oh...I think I knew that :rofl
> L


Since I clip her I can attest that she indeed has the black hairs to cause her to be registered black. Why do they call Toggs black since they are obviously black with white markings, who knows since that was decided a long time ago. If she were any other color without the markings she would have been a Recorded Grade. But it does give the uninformed something to take swings at, LOL. Black Toggs do happen, and most breeders will cull them. This would have been the case with Betty had we not lost her mother 3 weeks after Betty was born. She has earned the title GCH and placed 6th at Nationals this past year, her serious breed defect of being black causes her to be placed down the line in most shows all other things being equal. Numerous judges have placed her with varying placings, all have correctly called her black, as would any common spectator. She is also polled, there are only a handful of Black Toggs to achieve GCH status and none are polled. Anyway I felt that since our name was mentioned I would respond. Tim


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Tim- 

It is interesting that Betty is also polled. 

I certainly meant no disrespect to any black Toggs, please forgive me if my teasing Lee hurt your feelings! We saw a lovely black Togg go grand multiple times at a show here in CA this year- the wins were very much deserved. I do know that many people do not realize that though it is a fault that black is allowed in Togg does, much fewer than realize that there can be black Ober does, and few people seem to know that! I have also seen people be very surprised when they see a lavender Togg, they assume it is only that color because of a clip job...to me a beautiful Togg is only enhanced by an unusual color to go with it, even a faulted color like black!


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

The one Togg doe I had in the past was black, with white "racing stripes" as we called them. She was a fabulous doe. I had no idea the color was considered a "fault", but perhaps that is how we ended up with her, I can't remember now. What I DO remember is that she produced more milk than any of our other does at the time, and that she loved licorice. Black licorice, of course! I liked it too and often kept it in my pocket. She would come up and silently and politely "ask" for some, I'd hand her a piece, I'd get a piece myself, and we would serenely and happily chew our licorice together. 

Wonderful memories! I loved that doe. Black Betty is a gorgeous goat, so congrats on owning her.


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## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

Michelle, No, your comments were not disrespectful. We see quite a few black Obers around here, and the difference is that black Ober does are not faulted. Neither Toggs or Obers allow black bucks. I am not sure what you mean by lavender toggs. Are you referring to the roanish appearance that white hairs sometimes cause? The reason we enjoy our Toggs so much is the fact that they are consistent in color pattern and you look beyond that color at the productive does that they are. Tim


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## Rockinddtoggs (Jun 24, 2010)

Evie here in WA has some black toggs
http://eviestoggs18.tripod.com/

I agree Black Betty is a nice doe and the toggs are a great production animal! I love my Toggs!


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't know if it is a roaning effect- it is a pale color with almost a lavender/buff tone to it. That is what the Togg breeders I know call that color.



> Evie here in WA has some black toggs http://eviestoggs18.tripod.com/


That is the place!!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

So many beautiful does! 
I guess I will have to keep my promise to Lacia and try not to be humorous since it is not going over that well :/
It is really sad when you have to explain your jokes so guess I will quit. The quip about not a black hair on her was sposed to be funny in reference to the fact that she was clipped so short. So I guess Tim just put a complete end to my career as a comedian. I hope the collective sigh of relief doesn't blow me over! 

All the animals represented in this thread are so seriously beautiful what is to criticize?
My serious point was about language usage- certainly nothing to do with quality of critter!
L


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm from the Netherlands and had a friend in college who had a goatfarm and their Togs were black, so I was stunned when I came to my first show here and saw Toggs that WEREN'T black! As a Saanen owner with a few random does with Alpine face markings, I say from the bottom of my heart 'who cares about color, it's all about the doe and her qualities!' (I know, I know, that doesn't make me very popular and just for everyone's peace of mind: I don't register the 'offenders' as Saanen, but I do keep them in my milking herd, they do well!)


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Also, I just checked Black Betty out, and if she ever wants to move to Michigan: my barn will welcome her any day!! :biggrin


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I made some effort to learn about this today! 
It seems -after speaking with a retired breeder of the swiss breeds- that in saying Toggenburg you are actually describing the color pattern much like saying Sundgau and both names are place names where the coloration (Northern European Landrace) originates and actually not so far from one another geographically.

So saying Pink Toggenburg means a pink goat with pale markings on leg and underbelly. 
To those that work with them it is obvious that Toggenburg IS the qualifier for the color name just as Sundgau describes a similar coat pattern based on the name of the area of origin and what the native goats looked like. 

In the 1920's American Milch Goat Records used to qualify listings with an annotation of "Togg Markings" because they were registering goats that were many times only half known as far as ancestry. 
So a listing might state: 

Hornless doe- dropped March 27 1919 sire- such and such- dam such and such- 1/2 Saanen-dark brown- Togg Markings. (Which you could guess might be a sable  This would indicate they knew for sure it was 1/2 Saanen but nothing else for sure and the qualifier Togg Marks would be to differentiate it from a goat that was solid dark brown. 

WhooHoo that is fun to know! 
Trivia I know but what can ya do but try to learn :biggrin
Shout out to Miss Marianne for talking to me about this! 
Lee


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Heck, I show WHITE Alpines, LOL! I love to see if we can make the judge grab the rulebook  In fact, the year that Snowbird was undefeated in the ring -- we went to the last show of the year, and Sheila Nixon placed Italian Ice first OVER her! So much for undefeated ;-) 

White in Alpine does is considered a moderate fault, and if the doe is better in all other areas, she should still win -- I would assume the same is true of a black Togg?


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

fmg said:


> Okay, I think I actually did see one of these at a show. The judge placed her 3rd I believe, and said she would have been placed 1st were it not for the incorrect coloring.


Odd. The black is maybe "not preferred" and **ALL THINGS OTHERWISE BEING EQUAL** could be justified for First over Second placement. However, I find it hard to believe a judge had three exact peas, in an Idaho show, that required a third place status for a black doe. Not saying it couldn't or didn't happen in their eyes, just that I have a really hard time consuming that cold plate!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice clean up 
Daniel you rock round the clock 
L


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## Grumpy Old Buck (Feb 5, 2011)

Tracy in Idaho said:


> Heck, I show WHITE Alpines, LOL! I love to see if we can make the judge grab the rulebook  In fact, the year that Snowbird was undefeated in the ring -- we went to the last show of the year, and Sheila Nixon placed Italian Ice first OVER her! So much for undefeated ;-)
> 
> White in Alpine does is considered a moderate fault, and if the doe is better in all other areas, she should still win -- I would assume the same is true of a black Togg?


==> "10" <==


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes a very nice clean up 

I have to agree with Tracy, we had one of her white alpines go Grand Champ in the ring. And her daughter is looking really nice as well. The only coloration on her is a saffron patch on her right rump. We will show her next year, knowing there will be judges that will smirk at her coloration. Tam


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

My original herd of Alpines included a mother/daughter pair of whites. They did pretty good in the show ring too. I've had a couple of black Oberhasli does too. If I raised Saanens I would go for the Sables, since I have admired them for years. I'm sure, if I had Toggs, I would welcome blacks too! I love the non-conformist!


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