# To dam raise or bottle??



## supermom (Feb 24, 2009)

Let me preface my question by telling you all my does tested negative for CAE this year, so I am completely comfortable dam raising as far as that goes. If you really need the milk for your family, what do you do with the babies? Do you sell them all at birth as bottle-babies? If so, what is your policy as far as the baby thriving at the new home? What if it dies a week or two after they take it home? Do you ever sell bottle-baby doelings or only bucklings? 

I've read the doe will produce more if she has more babies. Well is that the case even if she does not raise the kids? Last year my LM raised her twin bucklings until they were 2 months old. As soon as the babies were gone (sold), her production dropped quite a bit. I kept millking every 12 hours as always and thought that would keep her from dropping. Is that a typical experience? 

I have a MM about to kid in just a few days and I am trying to figure out how I want to raise the babies. We really need the milk, but we really enjoy having babies around. I'm expecting triplets or quads. If she has 2 girls and 2 boys, will she make milk for 4 even if I only leave the 2 girls on her? I'd really appreciate input to help me decide what to do. I'm getting very excited! 

Thanks!


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I dam raise my babies cuz' I feel that is the "natural" way and I just would feel to bad yanking - granted I have 8 of my own human babies so I'm quite a softie. Tim Pruitt has an article raising kids naturally in goatkeeping 101 and I pretty much follow that 2 a T. We also test every year and have a "closed" herd except for the beautiful spotted buck I got this year. It is easier for us to do it that way and I enjoy all the babies as do my children. We have plenty of milk for us, the neighbors, etc. doing it this way. Now I did have triplets this year and they fought over the two teets terribly and I pulled one and grafted on another doe. I think multiples are hard to tend to when your a mama.That being said, I probably would pull one and graft it or bottle it. Two is plenty  Plus, when you have them as babies and follow-strict grow up and out plans you have provide healthy happy goats to someone. I have a few gals who want milkers so I will freshen the ones I have and then sell them with a baby or two on them. We have a doe due next week and the kiddos are praying she is packed so they can have babies in the house...in diapies....wandering around....OH MY!


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Twin bucklings would be nursing very often, stimulating more production than we stimulate with twice a day milkings, which is probably why you saw a drop.

The more babies a doe has, the more milk she will produce that year whether she nurses her own kids or you milk her. Two kids is a good number for a doe to raise. More than that and one or more will get shortchanged and pushed out at feedings and won't grow as well. 

I don't worry at all about selling bottle kids several days old. Once they've got their colostrum and got their "sea legs", they are good to go and will do wonderful in a new home provided they will have other kids their own age to play with. I would worry more about the stress on a dam raised kid sold at two months. 

You will probably get more milk if you dam raise two and bottle raise two. There will be more stimulation on the dam to make more milk. Don't count on a lot of extra for the family until you sell some of those kids. Four (standard sized) kids can easily take 2 gallons a day, or more, at a month or two old. I'm sure MM kids will need less, but I wouldn't know how much less. 

I had a doe with quads last year that milked wonderfully. We sold one buck kid at a few days old and he did great. With the three does still left to bottlefeed, and me milking 3 times a day for a while to get more milk, (the dam was making two gallons per day) we barely broke even on milk. Bottlefeeding and selling those kids as soon as possible will give you more milk for your family.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

It all depends on what will work out best for you. Since I am working now; I am going to dam raise ALL buck kids and castrate them. Unless they are pre-ordered. And I am seriously considering dam raising the doelings also. I hate dam raised kids but it may work out better that way...it all depends on if I can get a system set up...which I was going to be posting a thread about that eventually...just never got around to it yet and now Im getting ready to head to the barn where my horses are...so my question will have to wait!  lol


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## Cotton Eyed Does (Oct 26, 2007)

If you are planning on keeping a doeling as a milker I would pull her off the Mama at birth and bottle raise her. Dam raised kids can be very gentle and like pets with enough human attention, but when it comes to milking a dam raised doe, often times more than not, they are wild acting. This will cause you to get very frustrated having to chase down a doe at every milking time and having to fight her on the milk stand to get her milked. If you are raising meat kids that will be butchered then dam raising is a real chore saver. You can pen the babies separate from the Mama at night. Go milk the goat first thing in the morning for your household milk and then let the the babies in with the Mama goat so she can feed her babies during the day. They get the daytime milk you get the night time milk. Then after you butcher the kids or sell them or whatever you do with them you can start milking her twice a day. It kinda depends on the breed of the goat and the individual goat herself as to when she will start to dry herself off. Alpines, which is what I have, are a heavy milking breed. The ones I have produce lots of milk for a long period of time. Most of the Alpines I have had were hard to dry off. I have one here now that I have not milked for several months and she still has an udder on her. Now that she is 2 months bred it is just now start to shrink down some. Getting goats in a steady routine helps them to have a steady supply of milk. Being inconsistent with milking or with the routine will dry one up quickly.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I would love to be able to pull all kids at birth, but with having to work outside the home and a disabled husband who doesn't want to milk all the does and bottle feed all the kids, I compromise. Some of my does don't raise any kids and others raise theirs. The ones I know I'll be showing can have their kids pulled. Ones who will likely stay home from the shows raise their kids so hubby doesn't have to bring them in twice a day when I'm gone. I usually pull the doelings and let the does raise their meat wethers. I never let a doe raise more than two kids. The past two years, I've had a woman purchase most of my early born bucklings as bottle kids for their group of 4-H kids meat wether and goat tying projects. The tying kids aren't actually taken to rodeos. The kids use them at home to practice the technique and they go on to be either pets or dinner. I would sell bottle doelings, but it seems around here that people prefer to buy them weaned. I did sell a couple bottle doelings as well as a doe with kids on her to a couple who own a campground and wanted them for their visitors to enjoy. Another thing about doelings here is that I'm continually trying to improve my herd in the show ring, so I tend to hold onto my doelings to see what they do as they mature a bit. As far as a guarantee on the health of bottle kids, that would depend on the situation. If the problem were due to something congenital, I'd replace the kid. If it was due to lack of proper care by the buyer, then no, I wouldn't replace the kid for free. I would never sell a kid in a fragile state of health except for slaughter.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Hmm I dont have problems w/ my dam raised does that I am milking...Delilah is a sweet heart but she's the first dam raised doe that is just a big ol' pet.....however the rest of the does I have had or have currently....many of them were dam raise, of course they came to me already trained to the milk stand...Acapella was the only one I had to go get at milk time but after a week of the same routine she was waiting at the gate....but yea, I dont like dam raised goats for that reason, they can be hard to deal with...Acapella is going to be a pill at show time but of course in the same sense, Honey is going to be a witch to milk and show next year...and she was bottle raised!! I have never seen a goat as stubborn as her!!

I have bottle raised kids that have been wild (believe or not) Misty was that way...couldn't catch her half the time...once she freshened she mellowed out. Thankgoodness because she was going to be on her way out of here if she hadn't. Then there's the dam raised doe (Delilah) who's just a big ol' pet. SO....it really depends on what's going to work for you. I dont really care of the buck kids (who'll be wethers) are wild. I'll round them up in a small stall to catch them if I have to!


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Don't think for a minute that you can dam raise and forget about the kids. Dam raised kids have to be handled daily or they will be wild. Those that are handled are tame. 

We raised all of our kids on pastuerized milk on the lamb bar this past kidding season because sales demand it. However, you can successfully raise kids that are gentle and easily handled as milkers. Start each kid off with a bottle of colostrum and afterward help them nurse from the mother. Keep them together for a week for bonding before letting them out with the herd. After a week, return them to the herd but separate the kid nightly. Each morning, offer the kid a bottle of mom's milk before letting it out with mom. Yes, this is trouble - but well worth it. The kid is used to the bottle and will take it if sold or mom gets sick. I have had dam raised kids who took the lamb bar before being let out with mom. 

Monica: A doe who's kids are sold at six weeks will sometimes drop in production because of the loss of the kids. Mom simply gets stressed about it.

Amy, Honey may settle down after she kids. From the sounds of it though, she is not the type of doe that I would let raise her own kids. If you will take away her kids, she will bond with you, accepting you as her kid. 

Be aware, that does who dam raise will often kick their kids off at 4 or 5 months and then dry up - even if you keep milking.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

That is a problem I have had Tim, my does don't want to milk near as much after their babies are weaned. I'm thinking the does I have kid in May/June I will take their kids since I will be able to milk twice a day consistently at that point. My earlier kiddings I have to leave a kid on or have someone milk while I'm gone in April. I don't have anyone to milk them for me on my farm so I'll need a kid on them (they are kidding early enough one kid will be eating all they make- the help can keep an eye on the udder too). 

I'd like to get a milk cow so I can still feed my babies raw milk on a bottle. Because I'm not about to pool raw goat milk. 

I have not had a problem with dam raised kids being difficult on the milk stand though. I've only had four, but they were different breeds. Also, the three nubian doelings I had born this year that were dam raised let me feel their udders without a fuss the other day. Trying to feel the foreudder attachment like mentioned on here a while back. Can't feel anything so I hope that's good!


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## supermom (Feb 24, 2009)

If I dam raise, we may have higher production while the kids are here, but once we sell them at 2 or 3 months old....it will likely drop right away. If I bottle-raise , then the mom won't know or care when they sell. Therefore, production won't suddenly drop, but production may not peak as high because there is not a constant demand all day long. Does that sound right? 

If I bottle-raise, how often do I have to give them bottles when they are newborns? I'm just not sure we can add another thing to our schedule, but I think I may try. When do you switch to just twice a day? After a week, the kids will not even try to nurse on their moms? 

I just read Raising Kids Naturally by Tim and that was very helpful. More than likely, I will dam raise and separate at night. That is what I've done the past 2 years, but still not positive. I've got 11 more days to decide! 

Thank you. 
Monica


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Bottom line is that unless you bottle raise them or handle them everyday (as per Tim's plan) I can guarantee that they will not be as friendly and easy to handle as bottle raised kids. I know this from personal experience and from seeing others try both ways.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yea, they need to be handled and best is giving a bottle in the morning like in Tim's article.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

When dam raising you naturally handle the kids just to split them off. This is a great time to let them learn you are the bearer of all good things to eat. We also let them up on the stanchion when finished milking and they learn to jump up there while very young and get nibbles with mom and so the stanchion is a desired destination. Our baby safe is adjacent to the milking area so once a doe is milked I open the gate and her kids and only her kids run out and hop up and help her finish her grain then they all run out another gate together. It is so fun how they learn the milking order and none of them try to run out if it is not their mom up there. But when they know it is their turn they fly up there and this is when I handle them all over and check eyelids and gums and feet and rub them all over and interrupt them eating and just get them used to lots of stuff. They never balk at getting up on the stanchion as FF after loving it so much as kids. 

That said we have done it both ways and after the number of goats I have seen go by they are what they are when they are born. You can only change it so much with handling. They are calm and able to understand that nothing bad comes from humans or they are spooky and tightly wired and will always require more careful handling than naturally calm animals. I have raised some to freshening I should have put in the dog freezer just cuz they were so pretty but they never did react the same as those with an appropriate dairy temperament regardless of the same care and even extra effort. We have seen this in dogs and rabbits and other animals too.My husband has a new fav in the litter box because the little fat thing runs up to the front of the cage to wait for him when he hears the rabbit barn door open yet his siblings dive into the box. This rabbit wants interaction and the others want to hide. Their brain structure determines how they react to stimulus and some can remain calm and process new info and others never will. I am happy to say that historically the important dairy breeders culled for temperament or we would all be doing goat rodeo.


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## supermom (Feb 24, 2009)

Lee, That is what I was going to say, too. Although this is only our 3rd kidding season we are starting, I have totally noticed some are just born friendly. I was about to make a case and point by the 2 LM kids we had last year. They were never friendly at all, but were treated just the same way as the others who were friendly as can be. I just remembered, though, those 2 babies were the only babies I didn't see born. We were gone when she delivered and it was a couple hours later before they got handled. I wonder if that little bit of difference could have shaped their personality? 

I milked twins this past year, both raised the same way (bottle-fed, I think). One gave me fits on the stand for the first month. The other was angelic. 

We've also noticed the same thing with our rabbits. We have a litter of 7 right now. One of them wants to crawl all over us, and the others could care less. 

Monica


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Interesting story on tame-ability and genetics: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02E5D91130F933A05750C0A96F958260 .

Makes you wonder what else we are selecting for when we breed for this trait or that trait.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> If I bottle-raise, how often do I have to give them bottles when they are newborns? I'm just not sure we can add another thing to our schedule, but I think I may try. When do you switch to just twice a day? After a week, the kids will not even try to nurse on their moms?


If you bottle raise then you really need to bottle feed them three to four times a day until about 3 weeks and then you can drop to 2 X daily.
It is best to rear bottle kids away from the main herd until they are big enough to scoot out of harm's way.



> I'm just not sure we can add another thing to our schedule, but I think I may try.


This is the very reason I wrote the article on dam raising. Something has to be done in our industry to allow people with busy schedules to enjoy dairy goats - otherwise, they are too labor intensive for many.


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

Hi Monica,
Everybody has great answers and ideas. It all depends on what you and your family need.


> If you really need the milk for your family, what do you do with the babies?


I would sell the kids and let someone else bottle feed them. That way you have all the milk for your family. I haven't had a kid returned or get sick after it was sold. I have told buyers to call me anytime day or night if they have questions or problems. And a few have. I'm always glad to help people the best I can and give them my vet's # and I tell them about DGI.


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## Ping (Jan 21, 2010)

Just wanted to throw my two cents in regarding the wildness of dam-raised kids. I've had a bottle baby that was a nightmare on the milkstand and a dam-raised doe that was a dream to milk. So, I think a lot must depend on the nature/temperment of the goats in question too and not totally on whether or not they were dam-raised. On the dam-raised doe, I did pet her and touch her teats when she was a baby nearly everyday when I fed everyone, so I'm sure that helped. But I certainly didn't give her bottles or spend hours holding her, etc. 

Just my two cents of experience.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep, my Lipton is wild as a march hair, she was a bottle kid. Her dam line is one of my sweetest lines and her kid is wonderful...perhaps she got disbudded a little to deep, but she is a Nubian afterall, so how can you tell 

You have to do what works for you, letting kids nurse also means less time out milking...but like Tim said, it does not make chores with the kids any less time consuming because if you aren't out there with the kids, they will be wild and nobody will buy a wild kid.

If milking isn't the deal and it's just the feed kidding chores why not go to full milk feeding, which means only putting out lambars once a day? Another friend of mine fed their kids born on Fridays (using lutelyse so his does kidded on Friday evening when he was home from work), colostrum and then Saturday and Sunday it was getting them onto the lambar and went to work Monday mornings and they were on two lambars a day period. Another friend simply put does up on the milkstand twice a day and let the kids into the milkroom to nurse mom twice a day, he then milked out moms which gave him plenty of milk...when the kids were older he milked out the milk he needed first and let the kids empty udders. Taking the kids and putting them under mom at first, when about a week old those kids came screaming out of their pen to find mom or any hanging teat (do not take kids like this to shows). I have done it all ways including selling all the kids the weekend after they are born for cheap, for myself I think that 12 to 16 weeks on lambars with as much milk as they want grows out kids best (the whole cocci and worm prevention with individual dosing where I simply throw meds in the lambar is huge also, plus they can be sold to anyone at anytime, a bottle a nipple and they are gone, and keeps udders in good shape to be the easiest for me. I don't have anyone here to love on the kids, and I am not a big huge kid fan...so with my temperment my kids would not be tame...and I can't stand wild goats...I only stand Lipton because she is beautiful  V


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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

When I dam raised a set of our kids the separation was horrible! The kids screamed for mom for days when weaned. I hated it so the next set that were born I pulled them and didn't have a problem...except a guilty conscience (I am a mom to many).
So... how do you dam raise and not have screaming kids at weaning or any other time they are separated????? Linda


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

NPgoats said:


> So... how do you dam raise and not have screaming kids at weaning or any other time they are separated????? Linda


No way around it...IMO...When I started separating the kids part of the time they always screamed...when I weaned them they screamed for what seemed like, forever. UGH. lol And of course I have Nubians...lol


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## supermom (Feb 24, 2009)

Linda, I have decided if I ever keep a baby....I need to bottle-raise her because it is too miserable for all of us to separate.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

Those lil cute wild things  grow up and become big uncontrollable stubborn wild things ,that's OK if you like running ,body building and anger management for yourself :crazy .


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)




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## NPgoats (Mar 18, 2010)

I use the freezer for anger management. :biggrin


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Good one Linda. Ditto here.
Why pass it on.


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