# Shaking Back Legs



## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

Our Alpine doe that had a difficult delivery of tangled kids 4 weeks ago has shaking and off balance back legs tonight. She's not wanting her 2 doelings to nurse either. 

She ate a handful of grain and was very interested in it. 

Is this ketosis? So far we've given her some Nutridrench, molasses and karo syrup and red cell. I had a fecal count done last week which showed minimal worms. She's been wormed twice with morantel tartrate. Her eyelids were dark pink last week and seem to have faded some from then. Is it possible she's bleeding internally from the vet having to untangle the kids? 

I have some CMPK here also but have not given her any yet. It's an oral drench CMPK. I do not have any propylene glycol but I read that the molasses was best to start out with. 

Any advice?

Thank you,

Laralee


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Start cmpk now.


Patty


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

do the CMPK


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Mix it with koolaid or something to be less caustic


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

How much CMPK? The bottle is 500 ml and says to give the whole thing to cattle but nothing about goats.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

give her 30 cc at a time at least twice a day if not more often until she is better.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Give her the oral at 30ccs just like you would the injectable - every 2 to 3 hours. 

If you aren't careful and jump on this, your doe is going to crash on you, and then it will be very difficult to pull her out of the hole she is in.

Try to get some CMPK injectable that you can use tomorrow. You may need a lot more CMPK than one oral bottle is going to give you.

Pull the kids and bottle feed them. If someone was milking this goat, the first thing you would be told to do is to NOT milk her. Same thing for the nursing kids. When she is completely better the kids can nurse again.


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

Thank you all for your quick responses. We mixed the CMPK with some molasses and my daughter is giving it to her now. We got about 1/2 in her but she spit quite a bit out. We will give her more after awhile. We don't have any koolaid here. You said 30 ml 2x/day or more. Can I give her too much CMPK?

Her temp is 102.25. We offered baking soda but she didn't want it. 

I have some Vit B Complex. Should we give her some of that? If so, how much? 

She still has a discharge 3 1/2 wks post kidding. Could we be dealing with something internal here from the rough delivery?

She's alert but has fallen 3x that we've seen. 

We are feeding her 1/2 lb barley, 1/2 lb corn, and 1 1/2 lbs alfalfa pellets morning and night. She has free browse and free coastal hay. 

Thanks so much,

Laralee


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

I have two bottles of Oral CMPK. Should we let her eat alfalfa pellets? Any barley or corn? She has all three in front of her now and is eating. 

Are we dealing with Ketosis, Hypocalcemia, or ??????

Laralee


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

I sent a post earlier, but I don't see it now. So, I'll repeat some of that info again. Forgive me if this posts twice. 

This is the same doe that didn't come into milk well after her difficult delivery. I've been reading and trying to figure out why she didn't come into good milk wondering if it was a calcium issue but not knowing. She has not lost any weight. Still wants to eat. She's alert.

I've posted and asked questions and read and researched to try to avoid this very scene. Y'all have been great to answer so many questions. Seems like I'm missing something though. 

Our other doe that is getting the same feed, same browse, same everything and kidded 2 weeks ago is doing fine. We've had her for three years and two kiddings. This Alpine was purchased in September and brought home the day after breeding. So, we've had her for 7 months. This is her second freshening. 

She was just starting to be dried off when we bought her. We brought her back into moderate milk and then dried her off 2 months before kidding. She received alfalfa pellets those last two months prior to delivery and slowly increased the grain in the last month prior to delivery. 

I've already had a difficult last two weeks with human medical issues and an illness that had me tied in knots for a week +. Adult Fifth Disease with excruciating joint pain but incorrectly diagnosed as Rheumatic Fever or Lymes which threw us for a loop. I am thankful it was the Fifth Disease as the other wrong diagnosis were just a tad bit worrisome but it has been a very painful week. Thankfully this current event is happening after that pain has started to abate. 

Now this has kind of blindsided me since I've tried to learn and avoid this. 

So, now that we're here and we have some hindsight, what are we doing wrong or what could we/should we have done differently? We don't want to be here again if we can help it.

Thanks,

Laralee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And please worm with Cydectin. 

With a difficult delivery her anemia is likely from blood sucking adult worms, they are not laying eggs alot right now to see in a fecal.

Also if you aren't copper bolusing do so. And if you have bo-se give her another dose. 

If you have a good vet get the CMPK injectable and get bo-se to give to your doe to stimulate her immunity and her selenium level. We can feed calcium until we are blue in the face, with our iron ore problems, with our copper defficency, we simply can't use just copper sulfate in minerals alone to improve any of this.

Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well first for me is that she needs all the alfalfa pellets she will eat thru out the day. 2nd just barley and corn isn't the best feed in the world she is getting too much plain ole fat from corn and not much protien so re evaluate your grain program. At least 3lb alfalfa pellets a day year round per goat. and yes all of your problems could be from lack of calcium. your CMPK now probably sure be given every 2 to 3 hrs but you really should get the injectable ASAP


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Sondra she said in her post that she was feeding 3 lb of alfalfa, 1.5lb per morning and night.

Although her temperature isnt quite low enough to confirm milk fever/hypocalcemia, the weakness/falling down does seem to indicate it. I would definitely continue with the oral but it would be best if you could get the injectable, and dose it every two hrs.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And so can anemia. Vicki


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

Thank you all so much for your instructions and advice. I read and study and try to learn but until I do it I just don't retain it very well. When the crisis hits, my brain doesn't seem willing to pull that info out effectively. So, thank you all for walking us through this.



> And please worm with Cydectin.
> 
> With a difficult delivery her anemia is likely from blood sucking adult worms, they are not laying eggs alot right now to see in a fecal.
> 
> ...


Thank you all for your suggestions.

We did copper bolus our Nubian doe that we've had for 3 years when we purchased our first goat. She was thin, not thrify and not gaining weight. Our friend who helped us get into goats gave me the copper to give her so I don't know how to go about getting it and dosing it myself. So, where do I get it and how do I know how to dose her? After the copper bolusing her coat became shiny and she finally gained to a nice weight.

When I bought the CMPK at our local feed store, all I could find was the oral liquid and oral gel. The manager used to have a cattle dairy. He suggested the oral liquid. Do I have to get the injectable from the vet?

After this doe delivered I called a vet 1 1/2 hours away that is supposed to be very good with goats and was recommended to me the day of delivery by two different local goat breeders. The vet who delivered the doelings was fresh out of school and didn't know squat. She knew less than I did! The long-distant vet told me not to give her a Bo-Se shot as we are not in a deficient area. We live in northern Medina County TX. The doe came from Guadalupe County TX. Just the other side of San Antonio. Does that little of a location change effect selenium any? What the vet did tell me to do, and we did it, was to give her a liquid multi-min shot to help her through the rough delivery. We did this with the doelings too and gave them Vit E capsules and Nutri-Drench for the first week.

I have Vit E capsules and I have Sun Harvest Selenium, 100 mcg, capsules. Can/should I give her some of that tonight or in the morning? If anyone of knowledge is still up at this late hour? If so, how much?

As for the worming......I had I think 2 people say I should get a fecal done to determine worms, so I did, with very light stomach worms. We also wormed her a second time after that fecal with the mt. I've never used Cydectin. When I first researched worming a couple of years ago, I read so many contradicting statements about it's safety as an oral drench that I have just never used it.

So, if I were to use Cydectin, what kind would I use? I've seen the moxydectin horse gel wormer at the feed store. Or do I need a liquid? What kind? How much? How often? And do I do it now while she's shaking and stumbling?



> Well first for me is that she needs all the alfalfa pellets she will eat thru out the day. 2nd just barley and corn isn't the best feed in the world she is getting too much plain ole fat from corn and not much protien so re evaluate your grain program. At least 3lb alfalfa pellets a day year round per goat. and yes all of your problems could be from lack of calcium. your CMPK now probably sure be given every 2 to 3 hrs but you really should get the injectable ASAP


She is getting 3 lbs of alfalfa pellets/day. I got that number from reading here. The reason I'm feeding her the corn is that when we moved her to our place, she stressed and lost some weight. Corn is a carb so that is what I thought I should feed to try to put that weight back on through the pregnancy and lactation.

Are my calcium phosphorous ratios correct or are they so far off? 3# alfalfa pellets, 1# barley and 1# corn per day with free forage and coastal? I *thought* I had it figured that it was correct from all of my research and asking questions, but I could definitely have it wrong.

What would throw her calcium off if she is getting a correct amount of alfalfa pellets? I have read two totally opposite positions on whether to feed alfalfa in the month prior to kidding or not. Some say if you do then they will get milk fever. Others say if you don't then they will get milk fever. We did feed it, I thought appropriately. So what would cause the "lack of calcium" as Sondra says? How would I prevent this in the future?

I cannot leave alfalfa pellets out free feed as she is free ranging on our 20 acres with 2 meat cows and several other goats. I can pull her away and feed her a third meal of pellets if that would help.

The girls did say that her back legs/hocks felt cold to them. It was very hot here today and was still warm when we took her temp. I don't know if that makes a difference or not. In cows they say their ears will feel cold.

Should I continue to feed her what she's been getting or should I alter that any?

Thank you all again for your help. It is very appreciated.

Laralee


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

> And so can anemia. Vicki


We've been giving her red cell since her delivery because it was so rough and she bled quite a bit. She still has a bit of a discharge at 3 1/2 weeks post partem. Should that be a concern? I chalked it up to the difficult births.

I can't say that she's had much red cell this past week because I was so ill myself. I couldn't get out of bed by myself and spent 2 days at the doctor's office as well. Prior to my illness, I was writing down when we gave her red cell.

She kidded on 3/17 and was given molasses water, nutridrench, red cell, Pen-g. The next day she was given pen-g, nutridrench, red cell and 3cc tetanus antitoxin (per the vet's instructions) and a shot of multi-min. The next day she was given pen-g, red cell and wormed with mt. More red cell on the 23 & 24th. We gave her more red cell tonight.

Our Nubian kidded on the 26th. I didn't get much written down for those next few days. Did write down that she was rewormed on 3/30. Then I got sick the next day and nothing's been documented since then. The girls just went to bed so I can't ask them now how often they gave her the red cell this past week, if at all. My two oldest girls got sick as well, not near as severe though. So I'm guessing that she probably didn't receive any red cell this past week with us three older ladies sick.

Is there a way to know if it's anemia or hypocalcemia? I know I checked her eyelids a week ago and they looked very good. It was just tonight that they looked pale again.

Thanks so much for your thoughts and advice.

Laralee


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I would stop the red cell myself and the oral CMPK you don't have to dilute or use anything with it just give the 30 cc will read the rest of your stuff later when I have time.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

I beg to differ on the diluting of the MFO/CMPK oral solution. It burns like crazy! Some goats have gotten so caustic that even though they were recovering, they didn't want to eat because their throats were so sore. We just dilute with some type of gatorade product. Doe gets some electrolytes as well that way.

Try to increase the protein content in the grain mix you are feeding. Calf manna, etc. Or start her on a bagged feed with 16% protein. Folks with heavy milkers are feeding at least 16% protein grain to their girls. (Interesting to ask breeders with excellent herds what they are feeding or just read their websites). And they are still feeding a high protein/high calcium alfalfa as well. If there isn't enough protein in the feed, then the calcium is not as readily absorbed. Goats that don't milk as much may be okay for a while, but sooner or later the crash comes.

And yes, CMPK injectable is a Vet prescription. Pretty inexpensive though. Get a couple of bottles while you are at it.
Did you pull the kids?


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

I think you should use another type of wormer as you may have adult worms in there pulling her down even with a clean fecal. 
Also, give her some baking soda free choice. A rough birth like that, all the oral stuff with molasses she's had... It can't hurt and I've seen it work so many times to help a doe turn around.



> What would throw her calcium off if she is getting a correct amount of alfalfa pellets? I have read two totally opposite positions on whether to feed alfalfa in the month prior to kidding or not. Some say if you do then they will get milk fever. Others say if you don't then they will get milk fever. We did feed it, I thought appropriately. So what would cause the "lack of calcium" as Sondra says? How would I prevent this in the future?


 Calcium absorption is not just about the cal/phos ratio. That is only part. So low copper, low protein, imbalanced rumen ph, and other factors not mentioned yet can throw her calcium off. And in a hard birth or stressed animal, they might have enough dietary calcium and not enough blood calcium (pardon the simple terminology.)


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

> We just dilute with some type of gatorade product. Doe gets some electrolytes as well that way.


I picked up some amino acid/electrolyte solution this morning and will use that to dilute the cmpk. She detests it. We tried it rectally but that didn't work. Just made her toss her berries. I cannot find any injectable cmpk. One vet is closed. The other doesn't have it.



> Try to increase the protein content in the grain mix you are feeding. Calf manna, etc.


The alfalfa pellets she's been getting are 17% protein. And, we've been top dressing it with calf manna for the past 2 weeks just to give her a boost. I forgot to mention that in earlier posts.



> Did you pull the kids?


Yes, we pulled the kids. They are nursing off of our Nubian who kidded a week ago and we bottle fed them this morning too.



> Also, give her some baking soda free choice.


She has some in her pen.



> I would stop the red cell


Why? Her eyelids are a light shade of pink. Not white but not dark pink.



> I think you should use another type of wormer


Will her system tolerate a stronger wormer at this time? Or should I get her turned around and then worm?


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

pale eyelids in my opinion means she is too wormy, and too wormy means she would be anemic......I think she needs the CMPK (calcium) and worming. A heavy worm burden on a sick goat is disaster.

but that's just my opinion

Sheryl


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Will her system tolerate a stronger wormer at this time? Or should I get her turned around and then worm?
......................

Please get this way of thinking out of your vocabulary, not worming correctly for your area because she may let loose worms that take her blood with her? They already have sucked her blood so that point is moot, and has no basis in fact, and yes I know you read that on forums 

Calf manna is a soyprotein pellet, so it with your grain and 17% protein and that is a minimum protien level is more than enough protein. Having it mixed into the same bag with molassas so it becomes this miricle 16% protien with added molassas is not enough difference as to make any difference. Also ask alot of breeders who went through the old molassesed sweet feeds of the 90's the super high protein rations...portien in excess, is not all it's cracked up to be, it also scews calcium absorptions as seen in herds who can't breed their does to kid as young yearlings without bowed legs (the best alfalfa hay, high protein grain, soy protein licks in the barns) all this protein especially from soy also contributes to their mortality problems during kidding season.

Does who fill their udders for 300 days a year, who have no metobolic disease, sure they will never make top 10 but they also won't take the kind of intervention that does who are pushed with protein for production will.

Ok back to the OP....

Redcell isn't shown to bring blood levels up in ruminants like it does in single stomached animals and with soo much other oral things being given, I just wouldn't want to continue with more...I am not a huge fan of oral preperations.

You can by OTC Calcium Gluconate 23% soulution which you can inject on the same schedule you do CMPK.

Also read Sue Reiths articles on hypocalcemia/milk fever etc...in goatkeeping 101.

I still doubt the diagnosis of anything metobolic. I would be treating her for polio with doses of b1/thiamin and worming her. With the difficult kidding this could be as simple as metritis.

You do have some good vets in your area with so many dairy goat gals there. If near Marble Falls, call Annette Maze (should be listed under Everette Maze) and find out who she uses. Vicki

We have special problems with worms in our areas.


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

This is where we are at 2:30 p.m. Friday. I've changed the color of questions I'm asking as they can tend to get lost in the verbage.

The doe is still alive. She is alert and interested in food. She is still wobbly and laying down but is getting up and down. Temp is 102.5. The thermometer came out with a little bit of blood on it. Am I dealing with internal injuries from her difficult birth? Or is this possibly from trying to deliver the cmpk rectally? 

My daughter just told me that she now has a translucent light-green snotty nose. The weather here is getting windy with possible thunderstorms this weekend. I currently have her in a landscape trailer where we can get to her easily in the darkness of night. We are very rural and do not have power in our animal shelter. We're working on covering the trailer with a tarp to protect her from the wind and rain. Does the snotty nose mean I need to be giving her antibiotics now too? Pneumonia? 

Kids are pulled. Kids are 3.5 wks old. How much milk should we be giving them? How often?

We've been giving her CMPK orally diluted in molasses and now that we have the amino acids, will dilute with that. She doesn't like my daughter very much right now because she h.a.t.e.s. the cmpk. The feed store suggested giving the cmpk rectally but that didn't work so well. We're going to try that again at a s.l.o.w.e.r. rate and see what happens. _No one here has any injectable cmpk. No feed stores, no vets and it's a holiday weekend so other vets are closed. _
Strike that. I just found one vet who has a small animal injectable calcium. His big animal stuff is IV only. We've not done that so I'm opting for the small animal calcium/magnesium that is IM. I don't know anything more about it right now.

On a referral from a friend, I called a vet tech that works at one of the nearest vets offices that has worked with goats for 30 years. She is the one the vet sends the goats to that he doesn't know what to do with. She breeds Nigerians. She very kindly had me come over to get some things for our doe that I don't have access to.

She told me to feed lots of fiber and pull the alfalfa pellets and grain for now. She gave me some sudan hay and beet pulp to feed her. She also cut some willow leaves, bodark tree leaves, and mulberry leaves for her from her trees. Our sources of fresh leaves are oak, cedar and persimmon. The doe was very interested in the leaves and sudan. I know she was fed sudan at her previous home. Could that be an issue for her? This lady gave me a local contact for good sudan hay.

She gave me a syringe of prescription multi-min to give her. She thinks the issue is probably mineral related. She told me to give her some C&D Anti-toxin. She gave me one large syringe of this but no one here, including vets, have any in stock. So I have a one day's supply of this.

She told me to give her 10 cc of Vit B Complex 2x/day, Vit AD 4cc/day, Amino Acid/Electrolytes ~ 1 bottle/day.

She gave me a mineral mix she uses and said to give it to her free feed. She also gave me some deer feed that she feeds her goats. I'm hesitating to feed that as I don't want to upset her rumen any more than it's already upset. But, it does have barley and corn in it which she was already getting. It's the pellets in it that I'm not so sure about.

She also put a syringe of Bo-Se, thiamine and some powdered zinc and magnesium in a bag and it got left on her freezer. Ugh! She's 50 minutes away. We are going to try to meet somewhere in the middle this afternoon or evening so I can get that from her to give to the doe tonight.

I spoke with the house call large animal vet to see if he had any inj. cmpk. He said that he doesn't deal with dairy too much ~ mostly horses and meat cows so he doesn't keep the cmpk on hand as it usually gets outdated. He said to also give her dexamethasone. Not sure if I need to do that yet or not. She is eating and alert.

I have an iv fluid bag but cannot find the tubing. I am heading to the vet who has the small animal inject calcium and will pick up the dexamethasone to have on hand as well as some iv fluid tubing in case she quits drinking.


Any agreement/disagreement/suggestions, etc?

Thanks so much for your continued help in working through this situation.

Laralee


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

I am trying to absorb the many different opinions and trying to make the best decisions I know how to in this situation. I am trying to learn while trying to pull this doe through. Please be gentle with me in this process. I've done everything *I* know to do to avoid this situation and am now doing everything I know to do to turn this doe around, Lord willing. I appreciate everyone's suggestions and help.



> Calf manna is a soyprotein pellet


I know this and I generally don't like to give soy. I avoid this by buying our grains separately as the mixed feeds usually have soy. Contrary to what I just wrote about topdressing with calf manna for the past two weeks, my daughter just told me that she hasn't been giving it to the goats, only the jersey. Those weren't my instructions, but there was a misunderstanding. I guess that just takes one piece out of this puzzle though.

I also do not feed sweet feeds for the reasons you stated. My first doe was hooked on sweet feeds when we got her and it took some doing to get her to accept straight grains. I have been feeding molasses since last night as that was what I read was a substitute for propylene glycol. And she did get some molasses water after kidding.



> Please get this way of thinking out of your vocabulary, not worming correctly for your area because she may let loose worms that take her blood with her? They already have sucked her blood so that point is moot, and has no basis in fact, and yes I know you read that on forums Smiley


The reason I used the morantal tartrate first is that it is a milder wormer, to my understanding. When I was a teenager, we lost a 6 wk old baby colt to worming him and having too many worms let loose at once. He bled to death. I've read, and it makes sense to me, that if I worm with a milder wormer and get some worms to release, worm again and get more to release and then move up to a heavier duty wormer if necessary, then I'm avoiding this past scenario. I may be totally wrong. Others may not agree with this. I have read this before and because of my experience it made sense to me. I am not against moving up to a heavier duty wormer IF she can handle it in her present condition.

I've been told that due to the drought there have been no worm issues where we are, but there have been metabolic issues because the hay, grass and forage are suffering. Yes? No? 
 So many different opinions!



> You can buy OTC Calcium Gluconate 23% soulution which you can inject on the same schedule you do CMPK.


Would Tractor Supply carry this? Or the feed store? I've called several today and they've not had much of anything I've asked for. If I can find this, how much would I give? Same schedule would mean every 2 hours, but how much?



> metritis


Metritis is a new term to me. Is there somewhere here that explains it? I will have my daughter search for it. I'm heading to the vets as soon as I finish this post.



> If near Marble Falls - Good vets in our area....


No, we're not near Marble Falls. I'm guessing it's 2 to 2 1/2 hours away? The nearest good goat vet that I've been told about by the local goat people, including the vet tech today, is in Fredericksburg, 1 1/2+ hours away. His name is Dr. Lawrence. We live between Hondo and Bandera. There are no goat vets here. That's why the vets send their goat problems to this vet tech.

Thank you again for all of your help and suggestions. I sure hate that these things so often happen on holiday weekends when help is so unavailable!

Laralee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I think the B vitamins are going to make the most difference.

I would not change her diet now, do not use the deer grain. Do use all the grass hays you want but do not take away her calcium in the forum of alfalfa pellets. Forage/roughage grass hay, and sudan done well is fine, sudan done poorly in drought where it is stressed and not tested can kill stock, as does Johnson grass.

By covering her with the CMPK or calcium injected, and the bvitmains and worming her with Quest/Cydectin 3 timse 10 days apart, should cover it.

Your doe won't die from any of the above you are treating for. Now stressed (and the bo-se is a very good idea, she overgrows pasturella in her nose and will have pnemonia soon, which is what will eventually kill her if you don't turn this all around. So an antibiotic then becomes necessary as her fever goes up.

Yes I would say giving the calcium bolus retally is where the bleeding is coming from. IF this was uterine in nature as in uterine infecction she would have a raging fever, sometimes it's simply a uterus that is inflammed, and it can be this way without and infection...dex will take care of this as will banamine.

Since we are guessing all the way around, let me say this. Oral calcium at this point with advice to use oral CMPK etc...if you are feeding alfalfa pellets and the doe is already getting all the calcium she needs dietarly from the feed stuffs she gets, how can giving her more oral calcium in the form of oral CMPK going to help? Injecting it puts it into her bloodstream where she needs it right now, and why other than after the crisis is over to make sure she continues with enough calcium while she gets her appetite back, for me, oral calcium is futile.

I order everything I need ahead of time from jefferspet.com then I have a well stocked vet, our feeds stores are pretty yuppie and are mostly about pets.

Your horse is a sinlge stomached animal...moving much of anything from what you know about it, other than conformation which totally gives you a leg up on everyone else who doesn't know horse flesh, isn't going to help you. Plus with horses you deal with a whole seperate kind of worm and bots that goats don't get. Never think in the terms of using something mild, or safe...you have to kill them suckers and use something that works the first time...even 'safe' wormers have drugs that are processed by the liver. You aren't wrong for horses, you are wrong for goats. Plus if you learn to fecal you don't ever again have to listen to anybody about what worms you have, and what wormer work for your herd.

Our goats have arrested larve in them from way before the drought if you do not worm winters with Ivermectin products which get the arrested larve. So to think that worms or cocci are of no concern isn't true. Freeze and very arid conditions, and although you haven't gotten rain you get plenty of dew that keeps larve and eggs alive in your soil.

Offer the kids 3, 16 to 20 ounce bottles of warm milk a day, likely since they were with their mom they are already eating some grain, hay. Watch them for cocci and worms also. Vicki


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Please stop giving calcium rectally , not a good idea . If we suggest mixing it with koolaid orally so it doesnt irriate there throats ...what do you think its doing to her rectum ???


Patty


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

Thank you, Vicki, for your very detailed thoughts. They are very helpful.

I was finally able to find some CMPK IV/subq Solution, 500 ml at a vet's office and managed to get there just before they closed. A young vet straight out of school was the one on duty today. He doesn't know goats, but the vet tech I saw today works at the same vet office and she said he is humbly trying to learn.

The only difference I can see between the oral and this one is that this one says in a sterile aqueous solution rather than an aqueous solution. That makes sense since it would be used intraveneously or subq. I don't think I'm comfortable using this intravenously at the moment. We're all very tired here, know how to do subq and just think that is best at the moment. The vet said to give her 60cc of cmpk slow IV or subq 1x/day. The instructions on this board are 30 cc subq every 2-3 hours. That's what we will do unless y'all tell me otherwise.

I did not buy any Cydectin today. The cheapest the feed store had was $120 which I do not have to spend. I've had hundreds of dollars of human doctor bills/lab bills in the past 2 weeks and we are cash. My husband lost his job a year ago and our family has been making ends meet since then with fence building, handyman work, construction, warehouse work, elder care and anything else we can find. My husband and our 4 older children are all working to bring money into the family. Thankfully we had good warehouse work in November/December but in January, February and the first 2 weeks of March we had 7 days of work, I think. The economic downturn hit our work hard. We do have some work in now but the medical bills in the past two weeks have taken any extra we have. I just don't have $120 to spend on an expensive wormer.

My question is: Can I use Quest/Moxydectin in the tube and if so how much? or, Can I use Ivermectin, which is cheaper? The feed store said no one around here uses Cydectin. They all use Ivermectin. I know that doesn't make ith the right choice. Just telling you what they said. 

If I can use the Quest, I don't know how to convert horse doses to goats. One tube is $15. Not much, but with what I spent today on CMPK, Bo-Se, dexamethasone, Vit B, beet pulp......etc., it's all adding up, or subtracting from our finances quickly. This isn't a sob story. It is just reality at the moment. God is providing. The vet tech very generously gave me many things today out of her personal supplies. I could never have purchased everything she gave us today. It is our intention to repay her by fixing some machinery for her.

Vicki, I tried to accumulate everything I could before kidding so I wouldn't be up the creek without a paddle as have been. Due to no work, I just couldn't. Buying the two bottles of cmpk oral solution was what I could manage. I cried some tears last night in bed and lost several hours of sleep over this very issue but knowing that I could not change it. We have managed to continue buying good feed for our animals (and ourselves) and are thankful for that.



> Please stop giving calcium rectally , not a good idea . If we suggest mixing it with koolaid orally so it doesnt irriate there throats ...what do you think its doing to her rectum


I've never had to give cmpk before and had no idea it was caustic until someone posted here to give it with koolaid. When the feed store told me to use it rectally, I recalled reading that same thing on a family cow forum. Since we weren't getting any more into her orally, rectally, which gets absorbed faster, made sense. We only did it twice which didn't work. I didn't want to lose her because we weren't trying everything we could.

I agree that we should keep giving her the alfalfa pellets. I doesn't make sense to me to change her diet all up. Should I keep giving her the same amount of barley and corn as we have been or should I back off on that some? If so, how much?  I know something needs to change but I don't want to mess up her calcium/phos ratio any more than it already is.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We keep everything in goatkeeping 101, we are moving some things around right now, trying to get things more organized.

Quest is used at 1cc per 100 pounds. Just squeeze some into a syringe and give it to her by mouth via the sryinge. You will want to do it on all your goats.

Yes follow Sue Rieths article exactly, she is the guru on treating metobolic disease in goats. You also want to follow the information you read on polio (poliomyelitis encephalitis) which is really a fancy name for thiamin defficency, using your forteified B complex etc.

I would not change her diet at all until she is feeling better. Then I would up the protein like you wanted with the calf manna...I wish I could get barley that wasn't $15 per 50#! If you can add whole oats to it, it makes a better mix than simply just barely and corn. I also have a mix with corn in mine, increasing fat with BOSS like alot do is simply too expensive anymore for me. Mine being horse grains, I don't worry soo much about poor quality corn in my product, they aren't going to kill mares  Now goats or hogs or deer? yep 

You are seeing really quickly why I am the queen of prevention. I don't do well with busy work, guessing and all the stuff you are doing right now. And more than anything I hate that death walk in the morning...is she going to be alive or not. Just don't have the pateince or temperment anymore for this.

Good luck. Vicki

Ivermectin has wide resistance in our areas, and it is a very poor quality wormer for HC. Every single problem you will have with worms will be barber pole, blood sucking, Haemoncus Controtus worms.


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

Thank you once again, Vicki.



> We keep everything in goatkeeping 101


I have read through it but need to go through it again when my brain can absorb more of it. Thank you for walking me through this one step at a time. We are learning here one step at a time and will continue learning until the day we die.

Thank you for the Quest info. That helps alot.



> You are seeing really quickly why I am the queen of prevention.


I only wish I had the years of experience and knowledge that you have, but that will take me years :sigh to get. I am thankful that I can learn from your, and others, years of experience and not have to totally reinvent the wheel here. I did try to prevent this by reading and researching and reading and researching on both our jersey and the goats. Obviously I missed something and thus didn't prevent this from happening. That's particularly frustrating to me......

I very much appreciate the mentorship that you do. I understand the work and time it takes. I understand answering the same basic question (to you) over and over again and how it seems so simple to you while such a mystery to the new mom on the block.

For years I was a homeschool leader because I remembered those that went before me that helped to take the mystery out of home schooling our children. When I first started it was overwhelming. It was hard to keep all the new info straight and organized in my brain. It was hard to make right decisions. I purchased wrong curriculum and passed up the right curriculum a lot in those early years. I was a novice. As I learned and my confidence grew, I wanted to help take that fear and anxiety away from other new moms as they started down this new and mysterious road.

That is how I feel right now regarding raising animals. There is so much I don't know. So much to learn. And the lives of our animals depend upon my knowledge or my ability to get the right feed and/or meds into them at the right time. If my children don't learn an academic piece of knowledge today, they can learn it tomorrow. But, the life of my goat or cow depends upon my knowledge and abilities now.

Thus, I have tried to learn....yet there is much diverse information out there.....

So, again. Thank you for taking the time to mentor those of us who are newer on the block, who may not have the experience or know how that you do, and who want to take the very best care of their animals that they can, yet knowing that we will make mistakes. Sometimes very costly ones. And, knowing that we want to learn from those mistakes so that we don't make them again.


> I don't do well with busy work


As a homeschooling mom of 9 still at home, I definitely do not need more busy work. I've got plenty. However, the learning curve is steep and I've come to accept that no matter what I do, there will always be some busy work that I hope to prevent in the future. Life is not perfect!

Thank you for all of your time and advice.

Laralee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Your job with your children, homeschooled (wish I even had heard of it with mine) is a much harder job than my goat farm  Vicki


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Laralee,
Just for the records, don't EVEN attempt to do Calcium IV yourself. That needs to be done by a vet who knows how slowly to drip it into the vein - otherwise you will kill them.


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

> don't EVEN attempt to do Calcium IV yourself.


That's why I wasn't comfortable trying to learn that right now too. Thanks for the confirmation.



> Your job with your children, homeschooled (wish I even had heard of it with mine) is a much harder job than my goat farm


We all have our areas of expertise, what we know, what comes natural. And then we have those areas that we must learn and study so that hopefully they will eventually become areas of expertise. It's always such a blessing to have those who have gone before us teach us what they know.

It is Saturday evening, 11:32 p.m. The quick update is that Leah is doing much better today. When we got up this morning she was not shaking. Did not have her back legs spread wide. She was not falling or stumbling. She was very hungry which is always a good sign.

We continued all of the minerals and electrolytes the vet tech gave us. We gave her 1/2 dose of subq cmpk, thiamin and Vit B. We fed her more tree leaves and her alfalfa pellets and barley along with free feed hay. We kept her in her hospital landscape trailer by our trailer so her doelings couldn't nurse. We did milk her out some as she was filling up and we wanted to prevent mastitis. But, we didn't milk her out all of the way. And with everything we've been giving her we didn't think it was best to give it to her kids so we tossed the milk.

We had about 60 people to our place today for a workday. Some of the young ladies took her out of the trailer for a nice easy walk. She was excited to be out of the hospital and wanted loose. But, again, we didn't want the babies nursing yet. We will monitor her again in the morning to make sure she's past this initial crisis. At this point it looks good.

Thank you all for your help, suggestions, tips and encouragement. We've learned a lot both from y'all and the vet tech who so generously gave of her time and supplies. And....there's still so much more to learn.

I'm sure I will be back with more questions, hopefully just not in a crisis situation.

Laralee


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## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

I was wondering how she was doing. Am so glad to hear that she is improving. Hope she keeps it up.

Sheryl


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

The injectable so called IV fluids I give SQ never IV like Janie said that is left for the vet. But you can give them SQ easy


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## mommaof10 (Mar 19, 2009)

A big thank you to all of you who have helped us through these difficult few days. 

Leah is eating and walking well. She is still weak though. Not shaking, but weak. 

How long should I expect her to take to recover? 

How long before her blood calcium levels are where they should be? 

We let the babies nurse today. She was full and needed some relief and we don't want to be dealing with mastitis too. We didn't milk her all the way out though so we wouldn't be pulling a bunch of calcium out to replenish all of that milk.

How long before we should just put the babies back on her and keep her milked out? 

We are no longer giving her the subq cmpk. Is that correct judgment? Or should we keep giving her some until she is stronger?

I don't want to hurry things. I want to be careful. I'm just not sure what timetable or signs to look for. 

Thank you so much, again.

Laralee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We all do a whole lot of waiting and watching. As her kids nurse the milk out watch for muscle tremors in her rearl thighs, that will be your first clue. Your doing exactly what I would do, only let them milk her out 2 or 3 times a day, and not empty. Usually you move to CMPK every 6 hours, then every 12...then once a day. But if she is doing well, you dodged the bullet. Take her temp, a low temp will be another clue she is not getting enough calcium. Vicki


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## pokyone42 (Oct 26, 2007)

I hope she continues to recover for you! It sure is alot of learning, huh? Good for you! (I am always popping onto the forum to look stuff up, because my memory is like a sieve!)


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