# Laminitis??



## Candy (Jun 4, 2009)

During heavy pregnancy a couple of our heavier goats layed around alot. They acted like their feet hurt them. We tried to trim every three weeks during pregnancy, however, during the last month they were too heavy. Their feet got extra long and now that they have kidded we have been trimming every couple of weeks to try to get them back in shape. This doe still shows tender feet and still lays around alot. We just noticed this ridge on her back hooves. The top is pinker and thinner walled. And the bottom where the ridge starts is yellower and thicker. It doesn't seem hot to the touch. It's not spongy. The vet suggested laminitis/founder. This was based on my description and without seeing her.


----------



## freedomfrom4 (Nov 4, 2009)

I'm not sure about your girls feet, but I was just wondering how they get bad so fast? I don't trim that often and mine get right beck into shape aith one trimming. Is it the high feed stuff?


----------



## chell20013 (Feb 7, 2011)

I'd like to know the answer to this too. Although it's not my whole herd, it's just some of them. And it doesn't go by breed, either. Two of the boers (out of 8), the one lamancha and one of the alpines, but not the other.


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Doesn't founder have to be hot to the touch? I always thought that it did. I could be wrong though.


----------



## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Well, when they were laying around acting like their feet hurt, did you feel them then? That is the time they would have felt warm or even hot, if this was laminitis. By the time that ridge started to grow out the incident was past and the heat would be gone. Horses that have gone through this don't have heat in the hoof once the initial incident is over and they are starting to grow new hoof so I would not expect this to feel hot now. 

If they did founder all you can do is just what you are doing, try and keep the feet trimmed. Keep an eye on the shape of the bottom, it may change, due to a possibility of a bone rotating (if that's what this is). 

No one knows what causes a horse to founder; it can be created artificially with things like bee stings, so the best guess is it's a histamine reaction. We know that they will founder if given too much rich feed, such as breaking into the grain bin and pigging out, but other things can cause it too... I once briefly owned a mare who had a laminitis incident every time she cycled. And sometimes no one knows what caused it, and they'll call it "grass founder" which my vet says translates to "I don't have any idea what caused this but I need to call it something".


----------



## Red Mare (Apr 23, 2011)

I didn't realize that goats Could founder. Huh. Already learned something. 

You guys don't do the DMSO, X-rays, Ice and special shoeing I suppose?

Founder has some very basic causation if you are going to the basic root. 
The lamini become irritated, normally due to a lack of oxygen. The reason there are more then a few causes is because there are more then just a few things that can chemically cause blood to not carry as much O2. 

The two most common causes are high sugar in the blood, (such as escaped horse into feed, or gestational diabetes- remember sugar is like little sharp little crystals and will destroy delicate tissue as well as keeping O2 out)
and then a chemical irritant. (Again, perhaps causing a short term anemia, drop in h/h or inability for an O2 exchange to occur) 
The next would be over work- the concussion causes irritation to the rather sensitive lamini. 

Again, in horses there is an aggressive treatment regimen as their weight distribution is terrible. In goats, (it appears, as I google desperately) the pair of toes help spare them?

I have been pretty heavily involved the horses, and sadly with rescue and with show ponies, we see a Ton of founder. (In show horses, the fav thing to do is give the ponies Dex (steroid anti-inflammatory) to make the ponies jump happy and test clean. Steroids mess with sugar absorption something fierce, hence foundering show ponies) 

I didn't think that goats suffered from the same sort of poor design and therefore stresses!


----------



## DebsDoes (Feb 9, 2010)

If that is Laminitis, what could you expect when that thicker wall gets trimmed all the way off? Would the doe get better? I had a mare that had it due to a major injury and I wound up having to put her down. If the doe is up and moving around more, would that mean she's not too bad to make it through it?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

There is chronic founder, in which you aren't going to see the acute attack, seen in horses, in which you will have hot feet and a sick animal. Yes the ridges in her feet show founder, and it's why you look at the feet of older does you buy, you do not want to buy a foundered doe who is on banamine! In goats it is nearly always caused by the overfeeding of grain, getting into the grain...once again going back to the whole acidosis grain causes in a doe who is not getting enough roughage. Don't allow your does to get fat and sedentary at kidding time, make them get up, no grain until they have been up eating their hay or browsing...maybe it's time to not let the older does kid out before there is plenty of forage out in the pastures, if they do become couch potatoes all winter when pregnant.

At this point all you can do is keep her feet short, keep her carbs from grain down so she doesn't get further damage and improve how you feed during the dry period, extended dry periods especially with any grain at all fed, is just making it worse. 

Welcome Deb and please read your PM box. Vicki


----------



## Candy (Jun 4, 2009)

The only thing I can think of, since she never got into the feed and over ate, is that this doe was born Dec. 09 and was fed grain up to and thru her pregnancy. It wasn't alot of grain either. Now that she is on the milk stand she is getting more, but we have cut her down now and cut the added protien which was peanut meal pellets. 

By the way, when I say we I am talking about Deb/DebsDoes.


----------



## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

That "thicker" band of hoof wall you see on the lower 1/3 of her foot is not really thicker, it's where the laminae have stretched and the hoof wall has lost it's good connection with the bone inside. You will eventually trim all of this off. The "tighter" band at the top is not really thinner, it is healthier, more well-connected hoof wall. This is the new hoof growing out and is attached better to the bone inside and the laminae are no longer being stretched to the point they once were. 

The toe is still long and needs more trimming. Once you get the hoof as short as it should be it will grow in even more well-connected. 

There are about a million things which cause founder in a horse, but mostly it's a lifetime of over-feeding a high-sugar, rich grass diet. The feeds we give our dairy goats would kill a horse. To produce their gallons of milk, they need more calories and nutrients than a mostly sedentary equine not being asked to do more than jog around in a circle once in a while.  

Founder, or low-grade laminitis is present in about 60% of the horses I trim. Their feet look exactly like your picture as they are growing out. In a white hoof you will see red bruising. It's old damage, just trim through it as it comes down. 

Your goats probably need more exercise and a change of feeds, especially while pregnant. 

Good luck!


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Also, mineral deficiencies can greatly increase the chances of laminitis.


----------



## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

True Ashley, copper bolusing probably helps a lot. We had a goat founder/grow weird feet before we started bolusing. She was a black doe who was obese (yes, an obese alpine) and did not have the red-tinged hair common with copper deficiency but bolusing helped those feet anyway. Since then, we've not had a problem with feet or legs, even when breeding young does.


----------



## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Interesting thread. Thanks for the info!


----------



## Candy (Jun 4, 2009)

We have been late in bolusing. JUst did it this last weekend. It has been over 6 months since the last time.


----------

