# herbal wormer question....



## Starla (Aug 29, 2013)

What can I mix my herbal wormer with to make the goats like it better? they eat around it and leave a lot of the powder in the bottom of the feeder!


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Herbal wormers "may" work for goat breeders in the northern states, where the ground stays frozen alot. In the south, they simply cannot keep worm burdens down. 
Many, many years ago, I tried the herbal wormers and my goats would not touch them, and I really didn't want to have to force feed them on a regular basis.
You need to find a "long-time" breeder in your area, that has healthy animals, and visit with them about a worming program that will work in your climate.


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## Starla (Aug 29, 2013)

I have used what a local farmer told me to use. I like herbs and no they wont hurt the goats...so I just thought I would use these monthly between regular worming's. They aren't anything that can build an immunity to but can help the goats immune system! I thought at one time I had read somewhere what to mix with the herbal meds to make them like them better. Just thought I would ask  I am full of questions!!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Mix up some flour with them and then enough water to make little dosage balls, you can roll them in flour if they are sticky. Most of my goats will eat herbs that way. If not, a doseage syringe and mix it with water into a liquid.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Herbal dewormer is a waste of money in my experience. And we don't have any real proof that it is safe long term to use powerful herbs like wormwood or black walnut hull regularly. But if you must, feeding it on sweet feed is easiest cause it sticks to it. If you taste it, you'll see why they don't like it - bitter.

Now I like to feed Fir Meadows Kop-Sel from time to time mixed with kelp as a copper-selenium supplement. The goats literally lick the bowl. I feed it on plain whole oats and there is no waste.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

What's in it? Just because something is herbal doesn't mean that you can't end up with residue in milk, etc. When herbal remedies work, it's because they are pharmacologically active. Which means that there can be side effects, drug interactions, and all of the things that we associate with medication.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Stacey, everything that goes in the mouth has actions on the body. They all have different chemicals and properties. Goats eat herbs as their entire diet. just because we understand some properties of a few and try to use them for that doesn't really make them different.

Like sericea lespedeza, people fed it for ages because its high protein and goats will eat the stuff. Just because we now know it keeps barberpole down and some feed it for that reason now does not make the plant any different. 

Some things in nature are natural enemies and not to be compared to chemicals man comes up with because they, unlike plants, were not designed for the body to consume.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

There is nothing bad about giving herbs for parasites as long as they are not blindly depended on to work. The doses for those commercial mixes are extremely small (which is why they don't work well) and easily compared to a goat getting a few bites if stuff out in the woods for about 2 minutes. Once again why they are very very weak.

Vermifuge herbs are designed to be part of the diet. If you want to use them you'll be best off planting a field of them. Mustards, chicory, sericea lespedeza, centaury, etc etc. but with goats living in the same place year after year it may still not be enough and you have to be on guard. 

A truly natural and effective way to prevent parasite problems would be a *yearly* rotation onto new ground or keeping goats in raised houses with slatted floors and bringing all feed to them as is done in some tropical places where parasites are extremely bad.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I used to use herbal wormer and it didn't work for me but I do give certain herbs for other things and I either wrap them in bread or make the balls with flour, like Ashley said. I have a lot of wormwood growing on my property and they eat it like it is candy certain times of the year but it makes the milk taste horrible so i reserve that area for the bucks.


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## punchiepal (Aug 4, 2010)

I have used herbs on a few instances. Peanut butter has worked well here as a mixer.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Ashley, I am aware of that. My point was this: just because it's an herbal wormer doesn't mean that there won't be residues in the milk and doesn't mean that the goats don't have to deal with metabolizing it. That may not be an issue, depending on what you're using, but then again, it might. I would rather worm once or twice a year with a chemical wormer (based on fecal results, etc) and dump the milk during the withdrawal period, than worm every month (some even recommend using them weekly!) with an herbal wormer as a precaution. I am not talking about sericea lespedeza here, but more referring to things along the lines of wormwood.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I had to come back to this because the day I posted on here, I found a doe scouring when I went to feed. Her eyelids were not the usual dark pink, though they weren't horrible either. She was bred a couple weeks prior so I didn't want to worm her. I ended up using herbs and cleared her rather easily... so maybe they work better than I thought lol I think it was the addition of fresh pressed garlic that gave it a good punch.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Stacey, I think wormwood is the odd one out and not representative of other herbs use to worm with. Not that it's as scary as people sometimes make it out to be, either. I'll give it in proper doses to a pregnant goat without fear. I've taken it lots of time in herbal mixes myself too. But it's not something to go crazy with.. much like golden seal.

I have two deworming herbal mixes here. Here are the ingredients:

1- mullein (herb in the field the goats can eat on their own), wormwood (yes, it's a more potent herb not be used if you're not educated or using a mix with instruction from someone who is), cloves, thyme, fennel, pumpkin seed powder and ginger (all things you can buy at walmart for human consumption). 

2-Cinnamon, Cloves, Ginger, slipper elm, mullein, cayenne. The only new one there is slippery elm, which is a bark from a tree that is well known to be safe and used by people all the time. 

Pastured goats probably eat some pretty potent herbs from day to day, but "residues" from them are just not a worry at all because they are supposed to be in the diet.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's just that I think a lot of assumptions are repeated about herbs that have no real basis in reality. Wormwood is certainly not something that is required and many herbal worming mixes do not use it. And those that doe use it in an amount equivalent to a goat taking a tiny bite of a plant. Those who have it growing in their pasture will probably see a lot more of it eaten by their goats than that.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

That is good to know, Ashley. Like I said before, I used it solely in the past and never lost a goat, but they didn't look that great either. One of the main problems I felt with using herbal wormer was the cost for the amount it took to treat a whole herd of goats in the quantity needed. Cheaper for me to use chemicals twice a year, unfortunately.


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

I started using using fresh black walnut leaves from my tree 3 mos. ago and I know it worked, eyelids got pinker than the previous years I used chemical. After the leaves fell off this fall I used Fir Meadow a couple times, some two year old stuff I bought and never used. The first ingredient is black walnut. They hate the Fir Meadow but came running for the fresh leaves and liked some dried leaves I gave them. I am going to dry the leaves next year. My last herbal treatment was Oct. 12, eyelids are still nice and pink now Nov. 8 so I think worm season is over here. I use muscle testing/kinesiology to determine this also. So I am going to stick with this now and next spring/summer will be very interesting to see if just plain black walnut leaves will continue working.

I also believe that if using herbal there should not be any worm eggs on a fecal. If all adult worms are eliminated then any newly ingested larvae will be killed out with herbal. I killed out the adult worms and Liverflukes basically with the 3 time 10 day apart protocol, chemically, then keep on top of the "baby" worms, as they are ingested out on pasture, which I think are much more vulnerable to the herbal wormer than the adult worms. So I am keeping up on them before they have a chance to mature. This will keep eyelids consistently pink not having any adults sucking any blood. So far I think the normal once a week protocol would probably do this with herbal worming during worm breeding season for my Northern location.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Most herbals use black walnut hull, so the leaves may be alot more palatable. I like your idea of using the herbal to get the baby worms. I'm not finding I can go from deworming at freshening all the way to fall breeding season without throwing in an extra deworming late summer, even with my herd dry lotted. Just going on FAMCHA. It might be helpful to try herbal through the summer.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Okay, I am a person that believes natural is better. However...your dosages for goats...has it been researched? Are you still fecaling? How do you know the dosages are correct? Do you consistently give the dosage daily, or spot treating? I am just curious as we all know that as things pass through the four stomachs the efficacy of the herbs is very watered down. Which is why I personally prefer the man made de-wormers. Tried and true. I guess I just do not like to shoot in the dark with de-wormers.

Tam


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

I will never not use chemical wormers when needed. I don't think herbal is going to get lungworm and especially adult Liverfluke or Meningeal. But I think that after worming with chemical, herbal maintenance could at least prevent some re infection between chemical wormings. Especially for some places with a high saturation of worms. Especially where Liverfluke can only be kept at bay during certain times of the year. I really think herbal can control the newly ingested hatchling Liverflukes. After chemical worming the goats are immediately re ingesting hatchling worms to grow and suck blood till the next chemical worming. So after seeing pinker eyelids for a long stretch under my conditions, I'm impressed. I know this is not new, many out there use herbal and chemical when needed. But for those who have only used chemical it may be worth a little experiment to try it.


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