# Lets talk pasterns (own pics added)



## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

We have a (Grade alpine) doeling that looks bowed in the pasterns, has been this way since birth. She has received her BoSe. According to our book "The illustrated Standard of the Dairy Goat" (see attached photo) this is mainly an aged goat feature. SO, since she is showing this as a kid is it more a hoof trimming issue? Or is this a permenant part of her appearance? I know it is more acceptable than broken or sprung pasterns but has anyone else had bowed pasterns on a kid and still have functional hooves later in life? Do they break down faster or stay relatively good?










Tam


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Tammy, are you saying her bowed pasterns look similar to the drawing in the middle pic on the right? I am no expert here. I find horse feet easier to read than goat feet, but we did have a FF doe that seemed to get "down" in her pasterns before kidding and stayed that way until day before yesterday when I trimmed her feet. I also had an older doe who has pretty bad rear feet and seems to get down in her pasterns a bit and her feet have just looked awful. One time I trimmed a part of her foot too short and it bled quite a bit before I could stop it so I was always more careful after that. Too careful. Both of these does, when finally trimmed correctly, stand up on their feet just fine. I had been under trimming them and had to teach myself how far I can go. It's farther than I thought.

I don't know if this answers your question, but it's been a steep learning curve for me and I no longer trim feet without rasping them flat from heel to toe. Not something you'd do with a horse, LOL.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

No Anita, its the bottom pic, bowed. I have had some does do this when they are deficient on selenium but never had one from birth. I know part of its conformity. 
Tam


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Thanks for starting this discussion. I'm new to showing and have noticed pasterns like this again and again and have been really curious about it. I know you said your doe had this issue as a kid, but can it also be caused by trimming the toe too short?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=19496.msg206685#msg206685 Look at the young milkers feet. Sorry for anyone who doesn't have 100 posts since this is posted (and is staying there  in OT. And worse is that it is overlooked by judges as long as you have a rear udder....sadly even in Nubians who are supposed to have the best feet and legs around. Cull it now, do you really want to see what she is going to look like at 5, and know that you sold all these goats out of her that will throw this? Structure first, then put a pretty udder on it. Vicki


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## freedomfrom4 (Nov 4, 2009)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Guess I need to post more huh


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Since we have Mr. Whiteside coming tomorrow I will really quiz him on this feature. My latest fetish is feet and legs, gee I wonder why. Anyway it will be a great learning tool for me with all the different conformities in hooves we have 
Tam


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

just call me stupid ! but which doe in the photo has hoof problems, as I cant tell :nooo
the lady in skirt doe or the bigger doe as all I see is nice udders.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

The doe on the right you can really see some knuckling going on the right front hoof. The left rear you can see it too.

Could this be a conformity imbalance in bone length?
Tam

(sorry meant left side doe)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

The younger milker on the left...she also has her moms topline and will have more hoof problems than mom much earlier, like now. Vicki


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Well, I leatned something today. I have always been concerned about being "down" in the pasterns. Never even knew there was such a thing as bowed pasterns. So I went out to look. I have one older Saanen that "may" have a slight bow to her hind pasterns. Guess it is a good thing that she has never had a doe kid and has supplied the barbeque pit all these years. Something else to look for now. Interesting.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

There are a couple different faults in the feet:

Oblique/sloping pastern-is acceptable, though not ideal.
Weak/poorly formed pasterns-force the muscle that runs up the front of the leg and 
foot to carry the weight and control balance.
Sprung/Broken-nearly all the weight is carried by the muscles rather than the bone
column. Dew claws touch the ground.
Bowed-wear and strain may cause the first and second phalanx bones to buckle
forward.
Willowy-lengthen bone column that dioes not resist shock.
Receding heel-may be the result of sickle hock or a relaxed tendon.
Shallow foot-lacks vertical depth.
Crooked heels-incorrect hoof trimming or various leg or foot problems.
Splayed toes- may be inherited, result of improper trimming, or the symptom of any
leg fault that deflects the weight-bearling line.
Toe-in/pigeon-toed/base-narrow feet- accompany crooked or bowed legs.
Toe-out/splayed/ or base-wide feet- accompany knock-knees, close hocks, or 
crooked legs.

This is from "The Illustrated Guide to the Dairy Goat". Has been the best book on conformity that we have gotten.
Tam


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

I saw a lot of that 3rd picture you posted at the MDGS show today. I can't remember which breed (or maybe it was in many breeds). I was wondering what it was. Glad you posted this. I also saw a lot of feet that looks similar to clogs. Do you know what I mean? The perpendicular to the ground where the hoof meets the pastern was more angled down and back. Kind of like toes too long. How do you fix that?


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Not sure because I didn't see what you did but it sounds like a weak pastern or sprung one. But without "seeing" it this is just a guess.

I am glad I started this post :biggrin We all should be talking about these so we can identify them. Not just feet but many other aspects to conformity 
Tam


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*



Caprine Beings said:


> I am glad I started this post :biggrin We all should be talking about these so we can identify them. Not just feet but many other aspects to conformity
> Tam


Absolutely!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Bowed-wear and strain may cause the first and second phalanx bones to buckle
forward.
.............................

Can you see this now in the young milkers feet, just like in the photo above?

............................

Obviously I erased who the doe was in LaNell's post otherwise I would have openly posted the photo! It was nothing more or less just a close photo to show everyone this fault in person...and how it is overlooked in the ring. Vicki


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## freedomfrom4 (Nov 4, 2009)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Isn't that top line really bad?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

It's not ideal, just like the feet...but all breeders can pick apart things in their own does they would fix if they could. You breed the older doe to a buck to improve rear udder, he ruins her feet and doesn't touch her topline, but what a nice udder. So hopefully the buck who ruined the feet...or damn is it in the dam line, just not showing up until the older doe has aged? So use another buck...but you really have to linebreed in Nubians to keep that quality of udder...and then.........you loose your breed character and ears...as the nubian turns


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

:yeahthat :rofl
Always a trade off no matter the breed.


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## Red Mare (Apr 23, 2011)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*



Caprine Beings said:


> There are a couple different faults in the feet:
> 
> Oblique/sloping pastern-is acceptable, though not ideal.
> Weak/poorly formed pasterns-force the muscle that runs up the front of the leg and
> ...


I'd love it if there were visuals to go with this list of faults!


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## helmstead (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

You do see a lot of bowing on the move in the show ring (I notice it more on yearling jrs, anyone else?), but when they stop the pastern goes back. I wonder if these same animals bow when walking naturally?


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## freedomfrom4 (Nov 4, 2009)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Lamanchas seem easier


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## freedomfrom4 (Nov 4, 2009)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

What I mean is Lamanchas seem easier to achieve perfection and it is hard to get a perfect nubian, but there are lots of pretty Lamanchas around. Is it due to everyone and their brother breeding Nubians, but only die hard dairy people breeding those ugly Lamanchas? I have Lamanchas and Nubians both. My Lamanchas are pretty, but most every nubian I see I can say ohh look at that animal needs work. Rumps and toplines are bad in alot of nubians. And teat placement is another I see in alot of nubians. At least most Nubians have teats that are nice for hand milking and they are pretty.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Bowed-wear and strain may cause the first and second phalanx bones to buckle forward.
..........................

Not how I would like you to come onto the forum Caroline, but it is pretty clear that the young doe has her phalnx bones buckling forward in both front and rear feet, and should keep her from an E in feet and legs....and the point wasn't that the does weren't beautiful, but that no doe is perfect and all have parts of the scorecard that can be improved upon.

The photo was already posted here, not by me. It's a pretty tough sell that anyone needs permission from anyone to repost photos already posted on the web, especially since all photos end up on google, there are ways of protecting your photos so nobody can copy and paste them (without more skills than I have), other's websites contain them. Just like this thread was brought to your attention, there is no privacy nor should there be on the web. Vicki


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

The older doe is a GCH and has great LA scores too. I would love to have a doe kid out of her. I hope I get one!!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

OH BOY! :O. This was a post about bowed pasterns because I am working on understanding pasterns. So our doeling, 75% grade Alpine, was born with bowed pasterns so I wanted more info. I do see this in many animals walking around but not as pronounced as THIS doeling. The photo used was to help show people what we were talking about. 
The purpose of this forum is to discuss and enlighten...yes? I have posted much scarier photos on here to help enlighten my fellow goaters. This is so very minor compared to my postings
Tam


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

I just saw this post this morning and then I was gone all day with my father in law so I haven't really participated much in this thread.

When I saw it this morning, I have to say that I felt uncomfortable having the picture used in this way because I posted it and they aren't my does. I wasn't sure what to do so I figured I'd just think about it and post later. Also since Caroline isn't on the board, I wish I had been the one to tell her I used her photo and in the future I will do that. Sorry if I have upset anyone!! I posted this pic out of hopeful pride of bringing home one of their doelings. I wanted to share good goat news to people thinking about getting into goats instead of so many emergencies and scary things.

Since I've been here, I've noticed that usually we only critique does when asked by the owner. I think that is the best way to go about it. I do love the idea of a conformation clinic using pictures with permission by the owner of course. It is a great way to learn, but we also have to understand that pics can be tricky depending on the way the doe stands, the lighting and the photographer.

Again, if I've annoyed or offended anyone I'm very sorry!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Nobody would have been annoyed or offended if whoever emailed Caroline hadn't. It's the kind of stuff that goes on here though, we haven't ever been able to completely stop all that kind of childish behavior on the forum.

It was nothing more or less a teaching tool used correctly. You could have just as eaisly, Jamie gave us a direct link to her website or anybody elses, and I still would have linked to the doe because she was fresh on my mind. No harm no foul and nothing is changing here. I do expect folks to ask when using photos, even of mine, but I also know that in the end nobody really has control over it. The photo was also in OT when used.

Caroline has been a member of the forum for a few months, just to stop the PM I got that thought she had joined just to post on this thread. Vicki


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## Creamers (Apr 4, 2011)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

No one has a perfect goat - no SGCH Doe is perfect. . .something everyone needs to remember, I'd think.


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## helmstead (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

True Creamers, very true - and to point out one's faults is to improve a breeding program IMO. You have to know what's there to improve upon.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

:yeahthat and to know that you are right makes it even better. Our doeling WAS coded for having bowed pasterns :biggrin. Mr.Whiteside was in agreeance. This is why I am on here with this stuff. When you have an idea that something just isn't right it generally isn't. 
If we, Caprine Beings, are not picky we will go no where. We are a very small herd so we tear our goats apart. Knowing what conformity issues we have makes it easier to cull. Our moto is "Hoofin For Excellence"...it requires honesty in ones self.
Tam


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*



Red Mare said:


> I'd love it if there were visuals to go with this list of faults!


Me, too.

Overall, this has been a great discussion. I would volunteer to put something together if people would e-mail me photos of the above known faults. What do you think, mods?


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

:yeahthat I like that idea, instead of using random pics and making people unhappy, ask for certain pictures or use your own. I have to say my first reaction was 'wow' when I saw that picture in this post (I remembered it too as posted by someone who didn't own the does, but was excited to get a doeling out of one of them). Teaching about faults is great and very important, but I'd use a picture of my own does if I wanted to point something out. Everyone can find faulted does in their own herd, because indeed: no doe's perfect!! You know, we have one 'beautiful' LaMancha doe, but I've always hated her legs and feet. She received several first in classes and championships when my daughter showed her as a kid and as a milking yearling, but I've always said it's useless to have a great doe on bad legs, it's like a fancy car on bad axles and wheels. Now, we're just not showing her anymore, used a buck with fantastic legs on her and did get two nice doelings with good legs out of her last year. The doe is a three year old now, I spend a lot of extra work on her feet and wonder every time how long she will last... Then our best Saanen milker has a back that could be a lot stronger. I want her milk, but again choose a buck for her based on his body more than on his capacity to improve milk production. A dry yearling that won Jr. Grand Champion at our first show this year is her grand daughter and has a completely different look, with a nice straight back (hope she'll milk for us when she kids this fall!!!). We don't have the budget to go around and buy everyone elses great does, so we breed carefully, improve our herd slowly and feel really great when a doe we bred ourselves does well at shows.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

I don't have a lot of money to buy great does either, but I am just starting my breeding program. One of my dreams is to compete on a national level so I'm trying to start with the best foundation does I can afford. I already have at least one that I know isn't up to snuff. I decided to do LA so that I could breed them up. Hopefully each daughter improves upon her mother.

I'm making a lot of sacrifices to get my program started. =)


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Jamie, I think that's the way to go. It's what we did. Start with buying a few very good does and then stop buying and keep breeding! Everybody their own course, but to us, it's the most satisfying to do well with animals you breed yourself.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

I have seen some ugly legs & feet, I saw a pair of ugly front legs this past weekend. We took 1 nubian doe to the MDGS show, its my little sisters doe and this was her 1st show so being overly excited to show she got up extra early to make sure her doe was milked out before we left, ok oops I forgot to tell her not to milk in the morning........long story short her doe only had about 5 hours on milk in her and not 12+hours like the other nubians in the ring..........
She placed last(5th) in all 3 rings but what puzzled me is the doe that was 4th in 2 rings & 2nd in 1 ring had horrible front legs, and the judge in the last ring even commented on them and called the does legs deformed, her knees pointed in while her lower legs angled out and her hooves were pointing out in opposite directions.
So I guess correct legs doesnt matter as much as big full udders to some judges?


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Nicole - different judges see some faults more seriously than others, but on the ADGA scorecard, udders count for almost 1/3 of the total score (35 points), while legs, pasterns and feet only count 15 points as part of "General Appearance." General Appearance also includes 2 points for stature, 5 points for head and breed character, 5 points for front end assembly and 8 points for back. The ADGA scorecard is located towards the back of the Guidebook and is very informative about which parts of the goat carry a larger amount of points than others, with the total adding up to 100 points.


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## helmstead (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Yep, every judge has a pet peeve, but they still adhere to the scorecard. The pet peeves usually just help to arrange the top placements where they're close. When you study the points for each feature on the scorecard, it makes more sense. Feet and legs are much more harshly judged on juniors and bucks.


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## Pam V (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Ditto what Trysta said.
I like pictures to show what it is that I need to improve. I am too far from anyone to get a hands on opinion so depend on what is here and Dairy Goat Journal (Learned alot regarding form from that book so far). And it can be explained in writing but is much better when a picture is accompanied so I can say...Yeah, thats what it is about my does legs or attachments, or rump, or whatever. 
I was wondering.... if pictures are posted would they have to have info on where they came from as long as that person submitted thier own pics? Being anonymous might encourage more people to post their own pics. Just a thought.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

Love Jamie's idea about a conformation clinic and Pam's idea about anonymity. What if a few folks sent pics they've taken themselves to the mods, then the mods create a post without the names of the goats or the farm making the submission? That would give some examples without anyone feeling singled out or defensive, or anyone holding back on an honest (and constructive) critique.


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## Red Mare (Apr 23, 2011)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

I would be more then happy to participate in that. I am bathing and clipping most of my herd this weekend. (yaaaayyyyy)
And I am sure there are oddles of things to pick apart. I wouldn't care about mine being hemmed on as I know I need to evolve and cull- far as I am concerned it would be a blessing!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

I think we can do something like this....let us discuss it. Vicki


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## helmstead (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*



Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> I think we can do something like this....let us discuss it. Vicki


That would indeed be a great idea!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Lets talk pasterns*

And to try to salvage the reason for this topic please draw your attention to the hooves on this doeling, she scored an A in feet:








Now look at this doeling's hooves...they are relatively the same age. This one scored a V in feet.









Note the exaggerated knuckling? When she walks it is even more so. A very noticeable but yet acceptable/coded conformity.
Tam


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Tam: What is the difference between an A and a V? For those of us who haven't a clue, like me.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

On the scale: the same as what was discussed in the overall scores on our LA thread. 
An "A" is acceptable but not desired, its number range is 70-79. A "V" means very good, still not ideal, its number range is 85-89.
And the code number is 14 under the Defects - Feet and Legs found on the back of your linear appraisal young stock sheet.
Tam


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I'm all for it!! I have things that need to be improved in my herd and would love more then just my eyes looking at them


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I can contribute some photos.


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## sherrie (Jul 22, 2008)

Perhaps pictures of individual body parts, maybe? Like legs one time, rumps another time, etc.


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## Red Mare (Apr 23, 2011)

That would also work- but it would be helpful to have a set
series of areas/angles.
(For example, left flank direct side, from last rib to tail.)

That may be me being to clinical, but the more consistent the photos, the better the results.
Just a thought though-


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

There used to be a wonderful conformation clinic in one of the horse magazines. They would take three or four photos of horses all in the same class - five year old QH mares, for example - all posed the same way. Then you would "place" them as though you were the judge from 1st to 4th or however many. On the next page, a judge would place them and explain the placings. 

Maybe what we could do here is start a thread with say, 4 pictures of yearling FF does all posed the same way (I would suggest a pose from the side, and a pose from the rear) and everyone could say how they would place them and why. You never know what someone might spot that you might miss...

It almost feels like someone here is psychic.  I had been planning on posing 4 young does I've got, and asking for do what I suggest above. In my case they are 4 different 4-month-old doelings. I had hoped to start a conformation clinic like I have mentioned, and here others came up with the same idea at the same time! I've been waiting until I get all 4 goats here at the house for photos. I may have my photos by the end of the week.


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## Red Mare (Apr 23, 2011)

^
I remember that!
George Morris did the same for hunter horses.
It was fablous.


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## Holly Govero (Mar 26, 2009)

Now That make sense. Now I can see the difference! OH I see.


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## emeraldcowgirl (May 19, 2011)

Thank you so much for this thread! Wow, I should post photos of Nana's pasterns. After looking at the photo taken from the book and reading the thread, I'm worried about her pasterns. I'll take a photo or two this morning and upload them in a little while to get your thoughts.


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## emeraldcowgirl (May 19, 2011)

The first pic is of Nana's front pasterns. I'm worried about the front right one. The second is of her back ones. Her back right hoof is split and we'll be taking her to the vet this week to have it trimmed and looked at. I'm going to have the vet show me how to trim one hoof and then supervise me while I trim the other three so I can make sure I know what I'm doing. Her previous owner had her for 1 1/2 years and never trimmed her hooves, which is why I think they're so bad. Your thoughts would be appreciated!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Until her toes are trimmed we really won't be able to see much. The way they are right now does not show much other than her toes are too long. Do trim the hair away from the coronary band so that we can see the form of hoof and toe Thanks Tam


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes shave the hair off the body parts you want folks to look at.

This is a hoof trimming fault, especially seen in the far front hoof, all her heel has been taken off for so long and no toe that her hoof is misshapen. She has excellent feet, I prefer does with short compact pasterns like this, with poor hoof trimming. Her rear feet simply need a good trimming, when the wall cracks like this it is normally because it is too long, it should not roll under like this. 

Folks are so lucky here in that we have a gal, Kenny Shehane who does herd management like this, so from her coming to your home to trim feet for you (or body shave, or tattoo or disbud etc...) having had goats for so long she is also the perfect person to learn from. By watching someone who knows what they are doing trimming your goats feet, you learn how to keep a hoof short, compact and at the correct angle. Vicki


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## emeraldcowgirl (May 19, 2011)

Oh goodness, shave the goat...um, I've never done that! I was going to go tomorrow to the farm supply store so I'll have to see about picking up some clippers while I'm there. lol

Thank you!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

You'll be fine, Nana's 'mom'. You made me smile, because I remember when we took our first doe home with her tiny kid 5 years ago, I found out every day what I DIDN'T know, and was at a loss at first (I still am sometimes and then this forum usually helps!!!). But I've seen you posts and as interested and willing to learn as you are, you'll be a goat pro in no time flat. Good luck with Nana! Oh and her feet look fine to me, I agree with everyone else that it's in the hoof trimming and that can be fixed.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Goodness I have been trimming hooves for going on 7 years now and I am still trying to get it down Sometimes yes there is a conformity issue but most of the time I find I either take too much off the inner side of the hoof or not enough toe. Some just have more toe and it can be bothersome to keep them down. When you see knuckling in young goats like what is going on with our doeling, its conformity and not trimming.

Now good hoof conformity will give you this with just a snip snip I do not have to trim Branwyns hooves very often and not much comes off.








We are very proud of her feet :biggrin Thank You Vicki 
Tam


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## Holly Govero (Mar 26, 2009)

That doe's feet is BETTER than what I trimmed my goats. UGH. I need to find someone that are very very good at trimming the hooves. Oh well.


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## emeraldcowgirl (May 19, 2011)

Thank you for your reassurance everyone.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

So any estimates how soon in youngstock does the knuckling show up in the rear if this trait will develop?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

By 3 or 4 months....ask me how I know  V


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Is it possible to almost never have to trim heels? It's the toes of our does, both kids and adults, that grows. I think we are not taking enough toe off.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Most of my goats I don't trim heels. I have one line that I have to trim the very inside of the heel when heavy bred because they rock out on them, but it's still not an *overgrown* heel.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Shallow in the heels, is exactly that, a doe who doesn't grow her heel. Her feet usually look like she is carrying so much weight instead of the heel growing it just keeps flattening out. In Tammy's great photo, the doe is standing on the longest feet you would want a young doe to stand on, you can see if the hoof was any longer that her toes are going to start turning over as seen in the back foot closest to us. The front feet are perfect, the rear feet should have the doe on more heel...the rear hoof is not as straight up and down as the front. The feet of young yearlings should be very short and compact, adding more length as the doe ages and needs more stability. Vicki


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

See I told you I was still learning


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## Red Mare (Apr 23, 2011)

So appearance wise you want them almost on teensy stilts?


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> In Tammy's great photo, the doe is standing on the longest feet you would want a young doe to stand on, you can see if the hoof was any longer that her toes are going to start turning over as seen in the back foot closest to us.


Can you explain "turning over" in a little more detail? I'm not sure what you mean. Thanks!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Looking at it closer:
"that her toes are going to start turning over as seen in the back foot closest to us."

My problem is trimming that inner hoof half. They are not coming out straight and level. The inner half has too much outside hoof wall while the outside half is flush. I see the twisting around the coronary band wearing on the inner halfs toe which is in turn pressing on the outside half. Gotta work on that some more.


"So appearance wise you want them almost on teensy stilts?"
If you take a ruler and mark 1 inch down all the way across the outside hoof wall this is where your hoof "should" stop. However...not all hooves are the same structurally, which is why we look for conformity, and many have frogs that get overgrown in the toes. I have been afraid to cut down the toes because of drawing blood. I have learned however that some blood from overgrown toes is okay. It heals over and they actually look better. I am not saying go out there and cut every hoof to 1 inch. I am saying try to cut a nice level hoof attempting for that one inch with each trim. I am working hard on this myself.
OH BRANWYN! Come here!
Tam


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

phalanges....lets talk about the feet like fingers, and the phalanx is the knuckle...which it is what it is  Look at the back foot, it's two halves, you can see the inside knuckle is pressed inward toward the outside toe. See that? If the inside hoof was level with the outside hoof, she would have her weight distributed evenly.

The stilts should be shorter all the way across in the front, you can see that the hoof itself is being held apart, if the whole level of the hoof was shorter, I bet the hoof would come together to support the foot better.

The completely level from back to front, front hooves is not what a rear foot looks like, it is more of an angle of a doe with very short hooves walking with a pump/heel...not stilletos  It also increases the angulation of the thigh and can bring down more to level, a rump.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

That makes perfect sense when you point out the knuckle turning to the outside. Thanks!


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