# Scuzzy Skin



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I have 3 Nigerian Dwarf does, all adults. Two are sisters from an all doe quad litter, the other is their half sister. I had sold them to a friend, but she sent them back to me when she lost her job and couldn't afford them. They had been living in a place where no goat had ever lived before.

One of the does, part of the quad sisters, has bad skin problems. She has bald raw patches all over her legs, back and neck. I did done skin scrapings but have seen no signs of critters. I dusted her anyway, and used ivermectin several times to deworm her because it will kill "buggy hitch-hikers". It has not changed a thing with her skin. She seems worse in the winter when she is inside all the time.

I am leaning towards an allergy of some sort because her nose is caked and scaly. None of the other Nigies have a problem like this, nor do any of my goats. The does all run together outside, but the Nigies are in a separate pen inside. They have been here with me for 2 years. The woman I had sold them to had the same skin problems.

Suggestions?


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

The woman herself had the same skin problems? Did she have a diagnosis? Maybe she gave whatever she has to the goats?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's very rarely and allergy. Alot of the times it is something simple like no minerals fed, just hay and browse. Zinc, copper? No A&D or E because nothing green to eat and no sunlight? Or mites, they cause brown crusty raised buggers around the nose. Staph starts at the feet and from itching on the mouth and front legs, it travels up the body and can involve alot of the body. Vicki


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

ew yuck! I dunno what it could be, but it sounded like a funny Star Trek episode when you said they lived "where no other goat had lived before" LOL Glad to see you too have found 'the forbidden forum' :lol


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## Madfarmer (Nov 18, 2008)

Getting a diagnosis would be best. Do you have an aloe vera plant? The fresh gel would sooth some of the itch.

Tom


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I'd definately get a diagnosis from a vet if you can't figure it out. If contagious, it could cost you way more time, effort and money if other animals in your herd get it. It could also cost you kid sales as people (at least educated people) are unlikely to buy from a farm with obvious disease or skin problems, and not knowing what it is it probably not be appropriate to sell stock anyway until you have this problem under control. 
Hope you get it figured out soon, it doesn't sound good. 
Anita


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

No vets around who even know what a goat is. They think they are short cows or woolless sheep. :?

I worded it wrong, no the woman doesn't have the skin problem, the goat had it while she was there. It did sound like the former owner had the skin problem, didn't it? Oopsy! :/

No bugs of any kind showed up on the skin scrapings under the microscope, and none of the powders or meds have changed it, so I don't think its "hitch hikers". None of the other goats have any kind of skin issues. I've even loaded her up with Neem ointment, which is supposed to do a number on lice, mites, and the like. No change.

They get loose minerals and kelp. Should I give them something else? She is in the middle of the pecking order, so she has 1 sister who chases her away from stuff, but another sister who she chases. I have seen her munching on the kelp/minerals so I know she does get some. I use Sweetlix goat minerals. I also have a mineral block they can lick or chew on. They get fed grain twice a day, hay 3 times a day and I bring them browse. During the winter I bring them pine branches. There is copper in the feed, do goats need more copper than horses? Its a horse feed that they get, I changed over from the dairy grain about a month or so ago.

She's had this creeping crud since before I got her back, but not when she left here as a weanling. She seems to have it year round, but its worse in the winter. 

Some of the spots, like the ones on her neck, have been rubbed raw. I was thinking of powdering her with Gold Bond medicated powder to ease the itch. 

Cariboujaguar, I was playing on the star Trek wording. I almost put the word boldly in there but decided not to. They boldly went where no goat had gone before! :biggrin Forbidden forum? I've always been a rebel anyway! hehehe


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

The stuff on her face looks just like a eczema on a human, if that makes any sense.


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

hahaha we're on the same wave length then


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## RadioFlyer (Sep 23, 2008)

Can you post a few pics?


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## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

I had a doe who would get scuzzy looking too. She did much better with zinc lozenges ( she prefered cherry flavored) and always needed extra copper bolusing. I bolused her every 3 months.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Where do you get copper boluses?


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## Little Moon (Dec 29, 2007)

For goats you have to "make" your copper boluses. In the Goat Keeping 101 Topic - there is some copper bolus info - or at least there used to be the last I looked. There is also a whole Topic section devoted to Copper Info. I too have a goat with the icky nose business - she came to me like that, and i just keep cleaning it - UGH!! You know "you can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friends nose" well I proved that wrong :crazy. I have tried a number of things, but nothing seems to work. But this does doesn't have skin problems - so I am curious if maybe you have two separate things going on?

Anne


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

> Neem ointment, which is supposed to do a number on lice, mites, and the like. No change.


 be careful using neem on anything as the way it kills is by (darn can't think of the word) but makes the bugs sterile and can also cause you or the doe problems with this. 
I would copper bolus her and also AD shot and BoSE then there is a great fungicide lotion at TSC right now can't think of the name but it really helps with getting the hair back on the goat I used this when spider bites caused big hair loss on some of my goats. Will go look for the name.


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## megan (Nov 10, 2008)

Agape Oaks said:


> I had a doe who would get scuzzy looking too. She did much better with zinc lozenges ( she prefered cherry flavored) and always needed extra copper bolusing. I bolused her every 3 months.


how many / often did you have to give the zinc lozenges??


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Shapley's Original M-T-G Trial Size Horse Conditioner $.99 and TSC

on the zinc I use a couple a day don't have a clue if that is right or not


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## goatmom (Oct 26, 2007)

Here's another thought - this sounds exactly like what we had in a doe-started last Fall. I ended up taking her to 2 different vets looking for an answer. First vet said lice although they couldn't find any (that was suspicious) so took her to my regular vet a couple wks later -he did skin scrapings and then had me come in and look under the microscope -showed me the blown up pics of different 'things'. She had a yeast infection on her skin - I've never heard of that and none of our other goats ever had any problem even the ones that slept next to her. He mixed up some spray with sulpher in it -I sprayed the patches 2xd for 2 wks. And yes, it stunk and vet marked the bottle "will stain everything". 

Vet said he has seen a lot of yeast in animals, but particularly in dogs the past year (this started before we had freezing temps). The spray did take away the itch and she quit developing new patches, but - the hair didn't really grow back much - but after she kidded 3 wks ago, the hair growth has been great - which leads me to believe that she was/is deficient in something - and maybe that deficiency made her more susceptible to start with. 
Ginger


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I am getting horse grains (a 16% mare & foal feed) and it has about half the copper than the dairy goat ration (that I'd have to order more of than I can use, or I'd be getting that.) Wonder what your feed tag says? 

Yup, neem is also a contraceptive and is used for that as well as a bug repellant in Central America.

Yeast infections are common where there is too much sugar (molasses?) in the diet or hormonal changes. (pregnant?)

My dad had a sulphur shampoo for eczema on his scalp... I think Neutrogena makes stuff for that, too, that you can get at Walmart right with all the other shampoos..

just my thoughts/reactions to all that has been said.


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## dvm-mommy (Feb 5, 2009)

As yet another vet who has relatively little experience in goats, I can add in my .02 :biggrin

I certainly second the nutrition thing first...that is an easy fix with little headache. 

A note on skin scraping...a lot of the time it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to isolate a mange mite of the chorioptic/sarcoptic species....dogs, cats and ruminants ( I have done so ONCE in my 10 years of practice on umpteen numbers of highly suspicious mange dogs).... that kind of mange is very itchy and spreads. Where did the lesions first present themselves? Chorioptic mannge tends to start on legs and go up. Sarcoptes tends toward head/neck and move out form there. Ivermectin gets sarcoptic..chorioptic is more resistant and very difficult to treat...lime sulfer applications seem the way to go on that. Is it itchy? Demodex mites are usually non-pruritic...can cause lesions as described. 
Yeast is a common secondary invader of any skin condition..just as a bacterial infection (staph or strep)..trauma caused by initial insult like parasite breaks down physical, protective barrier of skin and your opportunistic invaders like yeast and bacteria take over. Treat these without addressing the primary problem (parasite, allergy, immune disorder, etc) and you leave the problem to re-occur, etc.

A less common thing but certainly something I would entertain if nutrition and parasites were ruled out is some sort of auto-immune disease like pemphigus or discoid lupus. Skin biopsy would be gold standard for diagnosing. Crusty, scaly nasal planum is hallmark for this type of thing...is a biopsy feasible?


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Not really, the small animal vets around here won't touch a goat, the livestock vets refuse to deal with goats because they aren't cattle and the equine vets are too know it all to be any help. When I had the skin work done, my small animal vet did it. He used to raise sheep and he was also our state vet for years. He is retired now from any vet work.

Its just this one doe with the scuzzy skin. Her full and half sisters don't have it, nor does the young buck who shares their pen (until/if they kid). The three does have been together since birth. I used to have a big herd of Nigies, until I got my Alaskan Malamutes with their strong prey drive. I had several generations of them, these 3 does were the last of 6 generations I bred. (one of them has since had generation 7) None of them had anything like this skin thing. When I sold these 3 does as weanlings, they went to a friends house in town. There had never been any type of livestock on that property in the past 3 generations, just dogs. These girls have only been 2 places in their lives, my place and my friends, then back here again a few years later. The doe (Meika) developed the skin thing as a yearling. The owner took her to their small animal vet, who did a skin scraping. They found nothing but treated her for mange. No change. It seems worse in the winter when they are inside. I will try giving her vitamin A supplements to see if that help, plus the other suggestions mentioned one at a time to see if/when something works.

My Nigie does also are in the outside pen with my big dairy girls and were in with the Boers I used to have also. My dairy herd have been with me for years, and was a closed herd until I got the Boers. The Boers were from a single herd, and were the only new goats on my farm in years. They had been here for 3 years before the Nigies returned. None of them had any type of skin issues either, and Meika had already developed it before she came back and met the Boers.

If it is mange, where would she have gotten it? Why doesn't any other goat have it?

The skin problem seems to start at her nose, but is also on her legs, top of her neck and along her top line in spots.

Feed tags.....I put the horse grain and the goat grain side by side before I switched. The ingredients were almost identical. The vit and minerals were the same, but the horse grain had extras like the probiotics. Both bags said not to feed to sheep because of the supplemental copper. There is not a lot of molasses in the grain, in fact it doesn't even become solid like a lot of "sweet" feed does in the winter. There is just a thin coating on it. The goat grain and dairy feed they had been on before had very a very thick coating of molasses.

Meika did have a kid last fall, her first at age 3. I found it dead when I got home from work. I chalked it up to an older FF who didn't know what to do with the kid. Maybe there was more to it?


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## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

On my scuzzy looking doe, I gave her a zinc every day for a week & she looked much improved. She usually needed them every few months


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## dvm-mommy (Feb 5, 2009)

"If it is mange, where would she have gotten it? Why doesn't any other goat have it?"

Oh- I am not saying it *is* mange..just commenting on the wrong perception that negative skin scrape means it's not mites. Far from it  Regarding mange...as in any species...why do some dogs have sarcoptic mange and others in the household don't? Why do some people in my clinic get ringworm when reading the word, and others like myself can touch a million and one confirmed ringworm cases and never get it? I think it has a lot to do with individual resistance and the ability of the immune system to fight it off. Think about worm loads in goats...there will always be some sort of parasite burden on a fecal (coccidia, trichostrongylus, etc) and yet most goats can keep them in check. Yet there is the one or 2 who repeatedly succumb to it. Case in point: did a fecal on a ND that was THIN and pale (think pale pinkish-white on the FAMACHA system) and she stopped eating: trichostrongyle species type of egg EVERYWHERE on the fecal (as in umpteen eggs per gram feces)...a differential was hamonchus (spelled this wrong I am sure...) due to the paleness if the goat. Suppose it could have been liver fluke, but after triple checking...definitely looked like stomach worm based on parasitology book I had. Other goat samples revealed same thing but these goats were great! No problems. Wormed with eprinex pour-on at double the cattle dose, and 1 week later...goat doing MUCH better...second fecal...low to no worm burden. This was the only goat showing signs of being overwhelmed by the infection. Nothing different in feed, etc that this one goat got compared to others. Interestingly enough, this doe aborted her babies shortly thereafter, even though her appetite and color all improved. (on a side note it was interesting also as many eprinex skeptics say it doesn't work in goats and yet I have 2 documented cases - Sophie was the other case- where they were loaded with a clinical worm burden and 1 week after worming with this, the worm burden was significantly decreased and they returned to normal)

Anyways...the zinc thing is intriguing as we see an inherited zinc deficiency in husky/malamutes. They get skin lesions that respond to dietary zinc supplementation. Just for fun, perhaps this individual doe of yours has a problem (like some of the husky/malamutes) in absorbing or processing zinc so they need a higher level of supplementation. That certainly would explain why only one is affected out of all your goats despite they receive the same food, etc. And an auto-immune disorder would definitely explain her versus no-one else. 
If you were near me, I would gladly do a biopsy..I don't understand the mentality of "won't touch that animal because it is a "________"" I am adventurous though and will try anything once (or more!!) It takes 10 minutes, tops. Perhaps 15 on a skittish goat, like my Sasha!


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## Agape Oaks (Oct 30, 2007)

My scuzzy lookinh doe was also the one who got sick at the drop of a hat....pneumonia several times, broken leg at 2 weeks of age, frothy bloat once. She was also the one who had worms most frequently on fecals. She was very much a favorite & a pet being my 1st born baby. I had to have her put to sleep recently as she had congestive heart failure ......I still miss her


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

some sort of auto-immune disease like pemphigus
.......

Exactly my thought, esepcially on the photo posted on the other thread. The body's system takes over and starts reproducing skin faster than the first layer is sloghed. Dexaemthazone a powerful steriod can be used sometimes to calm the immune system. What we found in a doe last year was she had little to no immunity in her blood. vicki


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Except for this skin thing, this doe has been healthy. She has never been sick, not so much as a sniffle. Since I live on a very small farm (1 acre) I keep on top of a deworming program, but she has never shown signs of heavy worm load. If it were an immune issue, would she be that healthy or could it be a localized immune problem? I'm trying to rule things out so I can try the suggestions in an order of severity.

We have a shortage of vets around here, therefor they are in high demand. I guess that makes them feel they can pick and chose what they will treat. I don't know, I do know that the now twice retired vet would help me with any of my animals, even though when he originally retired he set up a part time small animal practice. He wouldn't come for a farm call, but he would look at them if I brought them to him or he would listen to symptoms and offer advice and medications. 

What should I try treating her for first? Vitamin/mineral defeceincies? I've hit her with everything I can think of for mange etc. She may also be pregnant, due in April or May.

Oh, another thing, she really doesn't show signs of being real itchy. She doesn't stand around and scratch like I have seen "buggy" animals do. The most I see her do is rub her body against the fence, trees or walls in the spring like thay all do when they shed.

Question about a yeast skin infection. My late Irish Setter used to get those but his skin would have a distinct smell. Does the same thing happen with a goat? I don't smell anything abnormal with her, but I also have not stuck my nose against her skin. It might be worth a try.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Ok, I dashed home from work in between hospitals and checked the doe real closely for things mentioned here.

No smell other than that lovely (to a goat lover anyway) sweet doe goat smell that they all smell like. If she had a secondary yeast infection, would she smell "off"? Also, the bare patches are not moist, but dry and sort of scaly. The only places they are raw are along the top of her neck where she sticks her head thru the stall door trying to mooch grain. All the other areas are dry with no sings of rubbing.

Her coat is sort of drab and dry. I checked her for fish tail early on in this quest for whats wrong, but it was normal. Today I noticed that it is starting to get split in the middle, so I guess I may start with supplemental copper, since its starting to look like a copper problem.

Now, since they all get loose Sweetlix minerals and kelp, and I have seen her eating the minerals, she must have a problem that makes her either not be able to use her copper effeciently or for some reason she just needs more than the average goat? Does that sound possible?
If so, should I just dose her twice a year like the acticles suggest or should I dose her now and wait and see if it happens again?


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

regarding minerals... Vicki has commented before about not using minerals that are red--they are high in iron and inhibit copper absorption. If you have lots of iron in your soil, or other copper inhibiting minerals, you may need more than what Sweetlix can provide. Also, using as many different forms of copper as possible. I have the Sweetlix Magnum Milk, and I believe it only has the Copper Sulfate. (and I KNOW it's red! :/ ) Don't know if you can get Techmaster in your area? The folks on here that can get it are pretty high on it. (I can't get it, but would certainly give it a try if I could!) If she is a darker color goat, she may need more copper than your other goats, as copper is part of that darker pigment.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I don't think the soil here is high in iron, but the minerals certainly are red! We are pretty limited as to what goat minerals the stores around here carry. I will see what else I can find. The horse minerals I feed are not red, they are gray. I'll compare the labels to see if maybe they could be a good substitution for the very red stuff I am feeding now. The salt/mineral block I have up in the outside area is gray but I don't know what the copper content is. I was more concerned with the Selenium in it! :sigh


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

This may not be your issue at all, but just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in on the only topic I know anything about.  At this point, I'd be more interested in whatever you can find out about the skin issue than tracking down a different color mineral. But now you know there are better ones out there if you can find 'em. If not, then you do what ya gotta do.  I certainly didn't want to add more straws onto the camel's back!


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I am leaning towards the copper deficiency because of the start of a fish tail. Vicki said that red minerals contain iron which interfer with copper absorption, so I am going to change minerals hoping to get more copper. I will be ordering the copper boluses I read about on here too. I am not going to dump everything onto this goat at once. She has been treated several times for lice, mites and any other external parasites you can imagine. The next thing mentioned that sounds reasonable is copper deficiency. If that fails I will try something else. I don't want to do a bunch of stuff all at once because I want to know what helps her and what doesn't. If I do a bunch of different stuff all at once, I will never be sure what helped and what didn't.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well first off zinc is right at your drug store so try that while your waiting on the copper bolus it isn't going to hurt or interfere with anything else
and also BoSE and AD shot are only going to help her immune system so don't know why you wouldn't use them now.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I would definetly bolus this doe, then if you want to change minerals in the herd, fine. You do want to be using minerals that contain more than just copper sulfate. Red or grey  vicki









edited: somethings spell ck just doesn't work on


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

BoSe was done at breeding. The A&D would be coming with the copper boluses. I was looking at minerals when I stopped at the new Tractor supply on my way home from work. I grabbed some horse minerals because they had more copper than the general livestock minerals. In fact, those had none at all! The horse minerals have 1200 ppm max and 1000 ppm min.


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