# barrier teat dip?



## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Due to the mastitis and our horrible wet sloppy weather, the vet has recommended I use a barrier teat dip, but he couldn't remember the name of one.

Those of you who use a barrier dip, what brand do you use? :help2


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Blockade is what I have. Another local breeder went to a dairy supply store and got a 5 gallon bucket and divided it up, so I got a gallon from them for about $10 less than I would have had to pay if I ordered it--and no shipping. If you have to order it, I think this is a popular one:

http://hambydairysupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=199&cat=0&page=3

This is pricier, but might provide a better barrier??:

http://hambydairysupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=1496&cat=0&page=1

And if you don't have a teat dip cup, I hear these are great:

http://hambydairysupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=768&cat=0&page=3

I have the Hoegger teat dip cup and don't like it--too much waste.


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

I use blockade. It's the only barrier dip I've tried, but I've been happy with it. I ordered from www.animart.com and I will say it's not cheap.


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Ditto Billie's observation on the Hoegger teat dip cup. I use so much less Blockade since I switched to the one Hamby's carries.


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## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

I use Fight Bac spray... I don't know if this is a "barrier" teat dip or not, but I used to dip the teats and then this was recommended to me and I really like it as there is no risk of contaminating the teat dip cup. It prevents mastitis etc


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I am hesitant about the dip cup. When we used chlorhexaderm spray, we didn't have masitis. Switched to iodine dip and a cup and now we have mastitis. Maybe not connected, but who knows.

I think I'll use a dixie cup and get a clean one every time.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

The iodine is supposed to work better--faster--than chlorhexiderm. For pre-dip, contact time needed to kill pathogens is 15 seconds as opposed to 30 seconds w/chlorhexiderm. Or something like that--I'm going off of memory! With a dixie cup, you'll have a lot of waste. I was also not keen on the idea of a community dip cup. I was informed that any bacteria on the teat would be killed by the dip, and to use a different one for pre-dip than post dip and to wash it out after each milking, but it's okay to go from doe to doe. All that said, I absolutely hate the Hoegger cup so much, I use Fight bac as my post dip still most of the time and don't think I'll switch completely over until I get that Hamby cup. :/ No, Fight bac isn't considered a barrier dip, though I have blueish teats at every milking, so it stays on well anyway.


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## kuwaha (Aug 22, 2009)

There;s a pre-dip and a post-dip?? I wash and dry the udder before milking, then dip (spray) after. Am I missing a step? So much to learn - and so little time!!


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## Tallabred (Jun 12, 2008)

I use those white plastic bathroom cups - they are smaller than a dixie cup - not much waste.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Or 35 mm film containers... 

Karen, your washing/drying the udder pre-milking is what you are doing in place of a pre-dip. The principle is clean the udder, kill pathogens. The methods vary. Pre-dips are a thinner dip, and the teats must be cleaned before using them. They get left on a certain amount of time, then wiped off. Instead, some folks use Udder Wipes, some spray the teat with some sort of solution and wipe dry. Some take a bucket of wash water and individual wash cloths & towels. I've been using modified baby wipes (I've modified w/alcohol or Hoegger's sanitizing solution, depending on what I feel like trying...) I intend to get some of those Hamby cups and a pre-dip and switch completely over to pre & post dipping, but DH can only handle so many goat supply orders per payperiod!  ) From what I gather, folks on test are finding less bacteria in the milk and lower somatic cell counts when using a pre & post dip with iodine solution plan, and studies have been done to show that's superior to other methods. With that said, there are about as many ways of doing things as there are people out there, and there is a lot to be said for the carefulness of the person doing the cleaning. I have a friend who uses plain ol' baby wipes before milking, and Fight Bac afterward only about half the time, and instead cleans her concrete barn floor so immaculately, I could almost eat off it. It's working for her!


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I used to have a Hamby cup. Gave it away cause I hated it.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Well now, that stinks! I do have a friend that said they like the Hoegger cup better b/c they have larger teated does. I was just looking at a medicine bottle yesterday and thinking, "Hey... that might work well, too!"


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

I use OxyCide teat dip from Westfalia Surge, a peroxide dip for pre and post. Also, baby wipes first, pre dip for 15 sec and wipe dry, milk out and post dip. I milk on a pipeline and my bulk tank bacteria count last month was 3100 with 100,000 limit. I would have to say that this method is doing the job of keeping the count down. I use an inexpensive teat dipper. I think paper cups would be wasteful and very difficult to use for a large herd. Also, my does all have different types of teats; some you love and some you hate. The main point is to be as clean and dry as possible. Jennifer


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## Sharpgoat (Feb 7, 2008)

I use plastic sandwich bags the ones with out the zipper.
I put the dip in the corner of the bag and hold it in my hand I get good coverage and don't use to much dip... it can be messy if you squeeze to fast but you get used to it.
Oh and I have a cup I put the bag in between goats.
Fran


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

So nobody is noticing all the mastitis cases we are having on this forum due to the change from less is more to more is better.... using pre washes, teat dips etc.??? What on earth are your goats living in or laying in that you can't clean their teats with something simple like wetones, you have to use a chemical for even cleaning the teats before milking? Using barrier teat dips and letting does off the milkstand with wet teats, sorry but your letting it dry before you let them down? Common, it has to take what 20 minutes if not even longer in our humidity. When you destroy, with chemicals, the natural balance of PH on your does teats twice a day every day, and you have to wear gloves to even be around these chemicals, at some point are you going to say give? Every bit of chemical you use is breaking down the skin of the teat which causes more staph, more mastitis. 

Yes if your living in mud right now, if you already have mastitis in your herd, sure you have to use something perhaps more powerful, but know it's your hands and milking inflations that is passing the mastitis, it is not your teat dip curing anything. It's a clean barn, free of moisture and airy. Or if you have 35 milkers living in too small of areas, sure you need more. But most of us don't milk alot of does, do you really need to be using stuff commercial farms have to use? And realistically have to use because of overcrowding, bad water, poor runoff etc.??

And teat cups, you dip your does teats into them, one then the other. You sling out the old teat dip, and squeeze to refill it....now if you have mastitis, does not the teat cup still have bacteria from the last does teats in it? Or the teat dip alone filling the cup killed it all? And you wash your hands between does, but you don't clean your inflations on your milking machine between does? Oh and don't forget we now have orifice sealers to use at drying  And how much a year are you spending on all this? Is it working? Just food for thought. And once again not trying to stop the conversation at all. 

Vicki (less is more and no mastitis, and I do not have the cleanest barn on the block either, you can tell goats have lived here for 23 years as those on the forum who have been here can attest).


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Vicki, I really have taken a "less is more" approach, but with all the talk about mastitis, teat dips, etc. I assumed that it was because I was new, with fresh ground, few goats, and that if I didn't step up procedures, it would only be a matter of time before I had problems. Additionally, when I joined Farm to Consumer, I was sent a "Raw Milk Handling Handbook" and the implication is that if you don't do things by their book, that they may refuse to support you should the need arise, even if you're a due paying member in good standing. Not that I plan on getting sued or anything, but you know. I am more lax about things now b/c it's my family drinking the milk. When I start selling shares, I feel like I need to follow some of these things more carefully. In part, because I am new, and if I go against the grain and have a problem, what leg have I got to stand on?

The owner's manual with the Hoegger milk machine (and both Joe & Ann Hoegger when you talk to them on the phone) recommend cleaning inflations between does w/the sanitizer, but then some will say that it is the moisture in the inflation that harbors bacteria, and it's better to puff air through to dry it. (I still haven't figured out how to get all the milk out with just sucking air through, though, so there's just as much if not more moisture if I don't sanitize. :crazy )

I asked that question about bacteria from the last doe's teat in the cup and was told that the dip would kill what little bacteria is in there. 

So, talk to us more about the pH thing. Are these products not made with that in mind? I can see if you make your own solution and you're bleaching teats or something, but all these dips and sprays tout emollients and glycerin and whatnot. One of their selling features its that they will leave teats in better condition than ...? Than what, I'm not sure? using nothing? Using home made chemicals? Using the competitor's dip?

So this is what us newbies need to know. 23 years. How little can you get away with for 23 years and not have mastitis or funky milk? How many people will be able to duplicate that at their farm?

Not challenging, but just trying to answer some of your questions from my perspective, explain my thought process, and pick your brain to further the conversation. Because really? I would much rather not have to do all that stuff if I didn't have to. It's messy and expensive, but if that's what it will take to guarantee mastitis free does and good milk over the long haul, then I'll do what is necessary.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I use baby wipes before and Fight Bac after. I have never (knock on wood) in 30+ years of milking goats, had a case of mastitis in the goats. My place is very muddy, so the girls are out in mud a lot of the time.

When we had dairy cows also, we had a line who always seems to get it. In fact, they gave it to me. Once I got rid of that line, we never had another case.


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## catdance62 (Mar 2, 2009)

I use Wet Ones (or similar) before and then dip with water/Dawn/bleach solution I think it's on Fiasco Farm site.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

One important factor you are forgetting here in the immune function of the animal. 
A healthy animal can withstand the local bacteria however it is applied-by hand by machine by laying down. 
There is just no way whatever is on your hands should disturb a healthy udder attached to a happy immune system.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

No problems here with mastitis (not yet anyway). Then I dip first with a foaming iodine based dip, let that sit while I brush the goat, then wash the udder and teats with a clean, damp washcloth (one per goat). After milking, I use that same dip again, but it stays on. Usually, the goat is on the milkstand for a little bit after I dip the second time, but not very long, then she is turned out to enjoy her hay, so no one is lying down for a while. The area where they do most of their lounging is under cover and I clean it out at least once a day, so it stays pretty dry. They tend not to want to lounge around outside if the ground is wet. Oh, and I use antibacterial wipes on my hands as needed.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's an observation, and if you have read on here, and read from DG+ days, the more everyone is doing, the more mastitis everyone is getting. On this forum it certainly is not improving the numbers of sick udders. I prewash with wetones that pop out of the top of the container so my hands do not touch the next wipe, I have put about 1/4 to 1/2 cup of alcohol into the container. I rinse inflations between does with soapy water to sheet away the milk and then dip them into bleach water...1/4 cup per gallon of water (hoards dairyman) they are flung to get the water out and then hung up. Certainly there is no more water on the teats than are on gloves, hands or teats. I then teat spray with complete coverage with an up sprayer with chlorhexiderm per QcSupply, once summer is here I use bleach water again. The girls all stand to finish grain and even though they go out into a pen that is for them to eat hay in, some always lay down after milking. When using the thick teat barrier iodine (molasses consistency) dip, they would stand up with hay and shavings stuck to their teats, even after having stood on the milkstand finishing their grain.

I am not saying one way is wrong and the other is better, what I am saying is that most are not having any less mastitis, in fact more than those of us doing little. If you have to wear gloves because you can't have all that chemical on your hands, what do you think it's doing to the teats? I think it's a catch 22, the more you use, the more you have to use.

I do agree with Lee also, that it is about immunity. And also not purchasing mastitis when you buy goats. Vicki


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

> When using the thick teat barrier iodine (molasses consistency) dip, they would stand up with hay and shavings stuck to their teats, even after having stood on the milkstand finishing their grain.


Yeah, mine is definitely not that thick. (But then, it's not a barrier dip.) I don't think I've ever noticed anything stuck to their teats, and though I do wash their teats and udder, they really don't look "dirty" to me. I just figure that there's stuff on there I can't see. I like that it's a foaming dip because it means that I use a lot less...it doesn't seem to irritate their teats and it doesn't irritate my hands.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

Ah. Yes. That explains why I didn't have the problem before.

Darn it, trying to do things "right" gets one's fanny in the crevice.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Wow. Okay. This has gotten interesting! See, I have felt apologetic for using my modified baby wipes and Fight Bac as if I'm not doing what I ought. So, healthy udders can be maintained with this route. Let's talk milk, if you don't mind. Anybody on test? What are the SCC, plate count, preliminary incubation, coliforms, etc. with this method? Of course this will vary, but I'm curious to see if low numbers are attainable through both (less is more and more is more) methods.

In looking through that Raw Milk Production Handbook I mentioned, there is a chart on mastitis--types of organisms causing mastitis, their source, means of infection, and control mechanisms. Over and over the sources are manure, soil, dirty bedding, or dirty milking equipment. Seems to me that cleaning hands & inflations and keeping the bedding clean, along with keeping generally healthy immune systems are going to be the best defenses. Right?


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## Sharpgoat (Feb 7, 2008)

I use barrier dip and love it.
When I put it on the does and they get of the stand it wears of so it is not sticky and 12 to 24 hours later when I clean there teats I do get barrier dip off.
I like Iodine it dose not bother me. I like to have Iodine barrier dip on my hands better the bleach or Chlorhexidine.
Now I have to say 7% Iodine can send me running for fresh air with burning eyes! :lol
Fran


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I seem to remember a whole long discussion about how ineffective bleach was as a germ killer, and how much better iodine performed. This leads to confusion, of which I am prone, apparently. :help


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes and yet we still have mastitis in those who have switched to these Alice  When most test are done by the manufacture of said teat dip...well you know. And most of the tests I have read online are once again performed in large dairy situations, I don't think this applies to very many on here. 

Sorry Billie I am not on test, it simply wouldn't make me a nickle more, so to spend money testing isn't happening here. I suppose if I had chronic problems, than yes I would switch. The Fight Back is stronger, contains more chlorhexideen than it did when it first came out. Vicki


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## Narrow Chance (Oct 29, 2007)

I used to use Fight Bac.. wonderful product!! I 'used' to use baby wipes.. clean the udder... yada yada yada... then finish with Fight Bac. I think I used it for almost 9 years... until my SCC counts started getting higher a tad at a time. 
This being said.. I 'try' to keep a clean barn and loafing area. All the things your suppose to do.. clean bedding.. clean stand.. let the teat dry some before getting them down.. yada yada.
I changed to several teat cleaners and dips.. (even the clorox and towels) I think I tried almost every sprayer, applicator.. or dip cup. With each milk test.. the SCC would come down maybe one point.
I now use a Betadine surgical scrub .. sprayed on with a sprayer.. AFTER I milk.
I went back to the baby wipes.. as the pre dip made not one bit of difference on the SCC. The only thing I do now that I didn't for the past 9 years.. is use the iodine spray instead of Fight Bac. I haven't decided on which I like best.. I love FightBac.. and I love iodine. I have replace the sprayer about 3 times due to getting knocked off stand.. stepped on by me or a goat.. or just plain cheap sprayer.
I hate that the caps break on Fight Bac.. and I always kept a few spray heads because you never know when one decides not to work.
I did my own 'what's best for me' and come to the conclusion that if I didn't have mastitis.. and my SCC were good on milk test.. what was I banging my head against the wall for. I use what is easisest for me and what works to keep the SCC within reason. Milk test is not for everyone.. I use it for several reasons.. the SCC being one of those. 
It is costly.. time consuming and sometimes a pain.. I tell myself I will not do it again.. but I always do.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Oooookay.



Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> And most of the tests I have read online are once again performed in large dairy situations, I don't think this applies to very many on here.





Narrow Chance said:


> I went back to the baby wipes.. as the pre dip made not one bit of difference on the SCC.


I know I really hijacked this thread and have been a pain with the questions, but this really helps. A real eye opener...

So, because I've never been to a large diary, I'm guessing here, but their situation is going to be different because there is less individual attention to each animal, workers who may not have as much stake in the animals and may be more careless, and overall dirtier conditions. Right? So in that case, I can see where a hireling in a hurry can't mess up getting a teat in a cup, but might not spray or wash a teat thoroughly. And yes, a test performed by a manufacturer is not much of a test.

Rett, do you add anything to your baby wipes? Alcohol, chlorhexiderm, anything? Any comparison between the Betadine and the Fight Bac? Keep them both on hand, and whatever seems to be within reach or cooperating that day? Do you use an up sprayer for the Betadine?


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## Narrow Chance (Oct 29, 2007)

No.. I don't add anything to the baby wipes. I do like Huggies brand.. bigger, stronger and they smell better. I do get the Aloe ones.... helps with the dryness in the winter.

I don't use what's on hand.. I have used the betadine spray as a post spray since about June. I had an up sprayer... the nozzle got broke.. so I now use one from Walmart.. hand held garden sprayer. I couldn't tell much difference in the up spray and the 'side' spray. The teats get covered well.. and I do just like Fight Bac.. spray till it drops off the end of the teat. 
I did use an iodine based dip... can't remember the brand right off.. then found the surgical scrub had more iodine in it.. and was not as thick.. plus it was about half the price of the other dip.
Just let me say.. this is MY opinion.. and may not count for a hill of beans.. but using baby wipes.. or the commercial treated wipes.. is no big difference.. to ME that is.
You are wanted to clean the teat well before you milk.. and whatever gets it clean.. gets it clean. I hand milk.. so my hands are clean to a fault.. the teat gets cleaned.. and the milk from the teat never touches the outside of the teat.. nor my hands.. to a fault. So to me .. the pre cleaning is a matter of preference. IT's what's put on after.. to disinfect the end of the orfice before anything can enter the teat is what counts. There's several debates.. and I don't want to get another started.. you'll have to find what is best for you.. and this is what 'I' do.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I appreciate that Rett. My vet said she likes Fight Bac and would it be on the market if it was so evil? 

I had wondered if you hand milked or machine milked. I wonder if machine milking-- if the suction of the machine on the whole teat might make a difference as to bacteria getting in the milk. I can definitely see where hand milking could be cleaner in that regard. Yet, if I were hand milking, I'd more than likely get milk on my hands, a belly hair dropped in the bucket, etc. so maybe all this is like seeing how many angels can be fit on the tip of a pin. We probably get more germs in us from walking through Wal mart.


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Billie -- I hand milk so I just want the teats and my hands to be very clean before I start. I brush my does before they get on the stand and then use lightly soaped hot water to wash the base of the udder and teats (terry cloth, one per doe) and then a Milk Check teat wipe (has chlorhexidine) on the teats and on my hands. If I were using a machine, I would pre-dip the teats to thoroughly sanitize them.

Post, I've used FightBac (and took quite a bit of grief on this forum for advocating!) for years but now am using Blockade which I like equally well.

One case of subclinicial mastitis here in 10 years caught by my monthly state sample results. Other than that month, my SCC are typically 100,000-200,000. SCC a good indication of udder health. Plate counts, coliform counts will indicate cleanliness of your milking operation. My SPC always comes back at 1,000 (lab rounds to the nearest 1000, a lot of labs do to the nearest 100) and my coliform count (cfu/10 ml) typically comes back <1, 1, or is sometimes blank. Five years of monthly testing.

Vicki, I like to think that the forum users are being a lot more attentive to udder health and hence the discussions. I recommend being consistent in your udder care practices and at least test your milk periodically so that you know your care and milking practices are sound.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

You will know if you mess up - handling an udder twice daily- unless you are in a daze you will know instantly when something changes- like Rose- she caught her problem very early just from a few flakes in the strainer.
Don't worry so much Billie- Goats have been milked in appalling conditions world wide for over 10.000 years!
If they were that delicate there would be no such- altho I must admit the modern dairy animal does require some coddling.
Relax and enjoy your interactions with your does- don't treat it like a medical emergency every day.
Lee

That's not to say I do not really appreciate all the back and forth in this thread- an extremely relevant topic!


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

I agree with Lee...preventive measures certainly have a purpose but I also milked without using any pre or post dip at all for a few years when I first started. I am not recommending this...but we drank the milk and never had any problems, and neither did the does. I love baby wipes just for the convenience, plus the teats air dry quickly. I do follow Hoegger's instructions on sanitizing inflations. I also like Iodine post dips... and I've been happy with Blockade. My girls get fed right after milking so they are always on their feet for a good half hour; plus we are not as humid here and it dries fairly quickly. And yes there is always a slight residue left at the next milking.

I am not on test. The only cases of mastitis I've ever had here were at dry-off...before I learned how to dry-treat and ease the udders.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Blockade

West Agro barrier teat dip

Ecolab Teat-Glo Barrier dip.
Ecolab Iophor udder wash as a pre-dip.

Ecolab Ecosoft 100

You can order Blockade from Animart.com. Not cheap (mine was $32/gallon) but hopefully worth it and should last quite a while.

if you go here http://www.westagro.com/blockade.ihtml you can click to 'find a dealer near you'.

qcsupply.com has the chlorhexideen teat dip recipe on their website, and chlorx is simply 1/4 cup of bleach per 1 gallon of water.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I think of debate in this sense as a good thing. All we have in the end is our opinions of the management we choose, and the results of that management over the years of using it.

Not many of the old timers will post in a thread like this, but when Fight Bac first came out the amount of chlorhexideen in it was way to low of percentage, I know a handful of folks I showed with who had rashes of mastitis go through their herd. It made me cringe to see Fight Bac at shows, the one place where after you milk out you had better want a barrier teat dip  Another time that after milking out my girls are clipped on the show chain to stand so that orifice has a chance to to dry. The last time we had this discussion was the first time since then I had even looked at Fight Bac and yes the percentage of chlorhexideem is higher. Nice discussion. Vicki


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