# Goat Polio



## donadavis (Mar 20, 2011)

Hi,

I've got a new buck in my herd. I've had him one week and he started acting funny. Of course this happened on Friday evening when no one is available. It started with a limp and him not wanting to move while out with all the kids. I thought he looked strange but put it down to being new in the herd and hurting his foot some how. He had his bottle that night with some prompting from us. The next day he was grinding his teeth but he did take his bottle. He seemed a little stiffer and stood very still in his stall. I gave him probiotics, vitamin E and Selenium gel. I would have given him Corid if I had it on hand but started calling around and looking for Corid or Sulmet,thinking he had Coccidiaosis. He looked a little better for the vitamin/probiotic treatment so I hoped for the best. 

By evening I went in to sit with him for a time to see what was going on. He was star gazing (I had never seen such a thing). He was standing funny and seemed unhappy when he was moved or touched on the legs. I thought he looked constipated so I started looking for fresh dung and couldn't find any. He took his bottle and I put the probiotics right in the milk. 

Next morning was Sunday (father's day). I finally found some Sulmet I could get locally. Rusty took his bottle in the morning but I stayed in the stall to watch him. He was in the corner with his head pointing straight up. They say that's a sign of blindness but he could see and he responded to our movement. I found an article about start gazing and goat polio and started calling vets. Finally found one who would meet me with Thiamine and off we went.

Rusty's first dose was at 6 pm, .5cc of 500ml/cc as the vet instructed. I gave the dose sub-q but later read im would be better so the next dose at 11 pm went into the muscle. He had another dose at 4 am--still standing in the stall but less stiff and no longer star gazing. This morning at feeding time (7am) he was lying down, limp, unable to stand. He is taking little bits of milk (about 1 oz at a time) but he is totally limp. Poor little fellow. Is this a normal part of the recovery? should I look for something else? Could this be listeria?

Thanks so much for any help or advice.

Dona


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Usual thiamine dose for goat polio is 4.5 ccs per 100 lbs. Along with dexamethosone, also 4.5 ccs per 100 lbs. The thiamine is given once every six hours and the dex once every 24 hours. If he does come down with floppy kid on top of the polio, which is what it sounds like by your description, you'll need to give him 1/2 teaspoon bicarbonate of soda (baking soda) dissolved in water and possibly an antibiotic. Have you taken his temperature? Polio and/or floppy kid won't cause a rise in body temps but listeria will. Caroline


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I've not treated polio before, but I'm going to guess, no that is probably not normal. He should show improvement if you're hitting the real problem.

I have seen goats hold their heads up with pneumonia as well. I have had two kids get it this year with the heat and humidity. It took them down suddenly and I lost both of them. Never had it in a kid before this year (heck, never lost a kid before this year *sigh*). How is his breathing? Is it faster than other kids his age? It will kill them quickly once it is obvious they have it. You have to get to it before they start having breathing trouble. And neither of mine had a fever either.

Even if it's not what he started out with, stress can bring it on.

Also, how old is he? Check his eyelids, are they nice and pink? Barberpole is far worse than normal here this year as well.

Please fill out your profile info when you get the chance so we know where you are etc.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh, and sulmet is not going to be effective, it's way too weak. Baycox is the best thing for coccidia treatment, IMO as it is so fast acting, but that is mail ordered unless you can find a goat person near you with some.

Otherwise you'll want like Albon or Dimethox (sorry I'm not familiar with using this). If nothing else, Corid (it's not as good for treatment as it works slower, better to just use as prevention). Corid dosing, DON"T go by what the container says: http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f20/corid-doses-treatment-prevention-doses-also-others-16524/

*usually* coccidia causes scours. Not always but close.


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## donadavis (Mar 20, 2011)

*Update*

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for posting advice. The little guy died yesterday before I could get Procaine Penicillin for him. I was on my way home from buying it and he began to have seizures before I came home and died soon after the first injection. But this is all very good advice and the next time I will know the signs earlier and take quicker action. Advice to anyone who hasn't been through this (I've been goat keeping 15 years and been very lucky) :

Keep Thiamine on hand
Treat with Procaine antibiotic at the same time 
And BoSe was the other thing I was advised might have helped

None of these things would hurt and they could have saved him but only if I had them on hand. I wasted too much time over the weekend trying to find them.

Thanks so much again for all the good advice.

I hope no one else has to go through this.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Sorry you lost the little guy.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm sorry


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## happy vagabonds (Jun 24, 2012)

I just dealt with a case of polio and I swear I think it was brought on by using Sulmet. I did a bit of research and found that CoRid was documented to bring on goat polio but could not find any information indicating the same for Sulmet or the other Sulfa drugs. But what I *did* find was that sulfur interferes with thiamine. So... I am convinced that it was the last round of Sulmet that I gave my kids that brought this on for my little doeling. She did pull through it with supportive therapy... lots of Vitamin B, banamine and a round of penicillin. But, I can't bring myself to give Sulmet again even tho none of my other kids became ill. I just ordered a bottle of baycox.

Or... she could have gotten ill from something else entirely! But the timing was so suspicious.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

The additional drug you need to keep on hand to treat polio with is dexamethasone as it will take care of the brain swelling that is part of the disease process.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, Dexamethasone is very necessary in the treatment of Polio!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I have recently learned that polio can actually be brought on by coccidia itself. The cocci interferes with thiamine absorption, or something to that effect, so a heavy load can bring on a bout of polio. Corid kills cocci because it blocks the cocci's ability to uptake thiamine (but not the goat's).


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Nancy, that makes sense. If coccidia can cause entero, it could cause polio. Both come from messed up digestion.


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## still (Apr 20, 2013)

fmg said:


> I have recently learned that polio can actually be brought on by coccidia itself. The cocci interferes with thiamine absorption, or something to that effect, so a heavy load can bring on a bout of polio. Corid kills cocci because it blocks the cocci's ability to uptake thiamine (but not the goat's).


I've heard that Corid can cause goat polio?? I've used Corid multiple times without any problem and if I'm understanding correctly the Corid blocks the cocci's ability to uptake thiamine but the goat can still absorb it? I just want to make sure that the Corid has been ok to use......I've heard lots of conflicting information on that...Thanks


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

The uptake of thiamin by cocci and goats are different systems- totally different organisms. However, I use baycox because its one dose  but I used corid in the last no probs and know lots of people have.


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## donadavis (Mar 20, 2011)

I have heard that corid, sulmet and even some wormers can bring on symptoms. I believe he had Listeria as well. He responded to thaimine and we thought we were on our way but then he collapsed and I believe that if I had given Procaine pennicilin with thiamine we would (maybe) have beaten it. It's hard though, I've heard of cases running for months. I am sorry he died but I would have hated this to drag out for a long time. Thanks to everyone who posted. This is a great thread full of excellent insight.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I would think if it carries on for months something is quite off. Perhaps people are not working on getting that rumen up and running again. Cud transfers and getting them to eat forage/hay. I've found small amounts shoved towards the back of the mouth will get sick goats to chew and swallow it. It's a pain but the bacteria need to be fed. When they start eating again on their own, boy Hallelujah!


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## donadavis (Mar 20, 2011)

Ashley,

You are right on. The rumen of this kid was not developed at all when I brought him home at 8 weeks old. He had been given three 30 oz feedings every day and he didn't know what hay or grass were. I was trying to introduce roughage into his diet by decreasing the milk feedings slowly and offering a sweet feed and hay as well as time outside on grass with my other babies--my babies know what grass is from the very beginning unless they are born in February and I have had very few problems. The new feeding regimen are geared at meat goats, I believe. The philosophy seems to be to get them as big and as fat as possible as fast as possible. It's not good for dairy goats at all.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Hmmm. Not sure I agree that the feeding regimen reflects how meat goats are fed. It has been our experience (and our Boers are dam raised) that the Boers start nibbling hay and grain at a very young age - sometimes by day 4 we see them lipping the hay in the feeders etc. Even when we have a bottle baby Boer, it is much more inclined to be hitting the hay racks much earlier than the dairy kids.

From reading, it "seems" to us that many dairy goat people feed their kids copious amounts of milk and keep them on milk for up to 5 or 6 months of age, many times because they have excess milk. Other times because "well, the kid still wants the milk!".

Not for or against (meat goats vs. dairy goat) just felt that your statement was not accurate.

I do agree that this massive milk feeding with no roughage is not good for goats period.  Just my 47 cents - YMMV.


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## donadavis (Mar 20, 2011)

Hi Camille,

I assumed wrong then about meat goat breeders, sorry. I assumed this crazy feeding regimen was to make them gain weight quickly...my babies get 3 20oz bottle of milk for 8 weeks. They always grow well and eat hay pretty much right away...they begin nibbling everything from day 1. I can almost always wean at 8 weeks because they are 3x birth weight and eating grain and forage and drinking water from a bucket by then. This isn't the first breeder I've run across that feeds crazy amounts of milk. I don't get it. If anyone reading this is doing an intense milk schedule can you please enlighten us? What is the benefit?

Thanks


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I feed that much.. I've fed more even. I don't think it's a crazy amount of milk, dam raised kids may get that much if a single easy. They simply grow better and have better immunity getting more calories and nutrition. They will still eat grain and develop their rumen just fine while getting higher growth rates. 3x birth weight is only around 21 lbs at 8 weeks. That is too small for a standard goat. Should be at least closer to 30. Mine are often 40 or 45 or so lbs by then- at least 35 on the smallest- and I don't feed as intensively on the high protein grain as some who get even better growth rates do.

Goats here are a bare minimum of 50 lbs before I will wean them.


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## jdavenport (Jul 19, 2012)

My 5 Nubian kids eat everything their 14 month old FF moms do (browse, oats, alf. pellets, hay, mineral, baking soda), and they were between 21 and 25 pounds at 5 weeks old. They eat 48 ounces or so everyday of milk. The twins are nursing on mom and the triplets are bottle fed. I separate the kids from the moms during the night, so I can milk the twins mom to help feed the triplets. Birth weights ranged from 7.2 to 7.8 pounds for the triplets and 5.8 and 9.2 pounds for the twins. I wasn't planning on fully weaning these kids until they were 4 months old. Will they be so fat that they roll around the yard?!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Nubians, at least mine, do get quite chunky. But that's their genetics. They want a certain amount of fat on their bodies when babies for insurance. They will only put so much fat on though, the rest will make them grow. I don't wean does until 4-5 months normally. Some longer when they are dam raised  

When they kid and come into milk, they lean right out.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I agree with Ashley; 3x birth weight is not enough reason to wean (at least it's not what I've learned from DGI). I'm still feeding a lambar to 3 month olds because I have 1 1/2 month olds in the pen. I would normally take them down to 1x/day, but because of the smaller kids, they still get fed, too. 7 kids are getting 2 1/4 gallons. They'd probably drink more if I let them.

But my kids are readily eating grain and hay, as well as these milk feedings.

Donadavis, I'd get rid of the sweet feed. And please fill out your signature with your name, breed of goats, and area of the country you live in. It helps everyone. Thx.


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## donadavis (Mar 20, 2011)

I am at 35+ lbs at 8 weeks (my babies are around 11 lbs at birth--between 8 - 11 lbs normally) They get 60oz per goat per day, forage and grain (I start with Blue Seal Meat Goat Starter and Finisher and then move to Caprine Challenger--also blue seal). I wouldn't wean a baby that hadn't made it to 35 lbs or who was doing poorly. I've had good luck with this regimen...my goats grow to be very large and very productive. 

I have allowed single goats to be dam raised and they do grow quickly at first but by six months you can't tell the difference. All of my goats produce more than a gallon after the first year so a single would get a gallon a day if left to be dam raised. I've never seen a dam raised kid through adult hood because the ones I leave on the dam are ones I'm planning to cull anyway.

I bottle feed exclusively now because I can catch things early. I know if a doe isn't producing like she should. A sudden drop in production almost always means a sick doe even is she isn't showing any other signs. I had February babies this year (never again) and it was brutally cold for the first month of their life. Their mother was producing great for ten days but then dropped drastically. If she had been nursing her twin doe kids one would have died because there was one that was very aggressive and one that was a little shy. As it was I had to supplement while their mother got better.

Thanks to those who chimed in on the 90oz and above feeding of milk. I guess it works both ways.

Dona Davis
Spring Mtn Farm
East Burke VT

Purebred Nubians


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

I think you'll find that there are as many ways of raising dairy goats as there are goats being raised. Ours are raised on free choice cold milk from the time they're a week old until they're weaned at 10-14 weeks of age. Feed, hay and fresh water are offered from the time they're about two weeks old. Our last four 2013 doelings are sharing two gallons of milk a day (two of them are 4 weeks old and two are 8 weeks old) and they're all eating hay and feed. And it may be with breeds other than Nubians (those who produce more milk that's lower than butterfat), larger quantites of milk can be consumed without the kids getting too fat. 

If your buckling did have polio, the seizures you saw were from the brain swelling that is part of the disease process and the reason why dexamethasone is one of the drugs used to treat it.


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## donadavis (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanks Caroline. I will put dexamethasone in my medicine chest. It really shows me how much you need this stuff on hand. I couldn't get anyone over the father's day weekend when the buck got sick. I would normally rely on a vet but it was too late by the time my vet got back to me. We are very rural and the vets that will see goats are spread thin so anything you can do yourself helps.

I checked out your goat web page and they look great...not too fat at all. I think it's too late this season but I will try more milk for the babies. It's not too late to wean later this season so I will see if it helps. Maybe I will do a control group next year and take pictures of the growth difference. There is so little "real" scientific study for goats but I believe, with the popularity of goat cheese and artisan cheese and the big dairies popping up that may change.

Dona Davis
Spring Mtn Farm
East Burke, VT 

Purebred Nubians


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