# Doe with sluggish labor



## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

It looks like there were only two kids. She passed a large amount of placental material. She was induced, and started seriously kidding 35 hours later. Last year, she took all day and I could have lost her. This year, the first kid came out fine. A big buck with a floppy non-alpine ear. Then her labor began to slow down. I went in and felt another kid. Felt like it was presented correctly. I could feel feet, soles facing down, and a head. It was way down there. I gave 30cc CMPK in several different places. I went in several times to be sure the kid was presenting correctly. It began to move farther along the birth canal. She finally gave birth while I had went in the house to take the buck inside. A doeling, exactly half the size of the boy. She was 4 pounds, he was 8 pounds.) This was day 28. What is the best antibiotic or treatment for this situation? (me having to go in several times for checking). Doe is doing fine now. Is this slow labor likely to happen every year? Also, is there something besides the CMPK injectable that I could have used that would work better? 
For the longest time I thought there was another kid in there. She was huge, and after she kidded she was still big and pawing the ground. I went in as far as I could , past my wrist and felt nothing. She's been resting in her stall for several hours now and has stopped pawing. 
Thanks in advance.
Anita


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2009)

Anita Martin said:


> For the longest time I thought there was another kid in there. She was huge, and after she kidded she was still big and pawing the ground. *I went in as far as I could , past my wrist and felt nothing.* She's been resting in her stall for several hours now and has stopped pawing.
> Thanks in advance.
> Anita


If you just went in as far as your wrist, that isn't far enough. To make sure a doe, especially a mature doe who has kidded before, doesn't have anymore kids inside her I go in up to my elbow and do a 'swoop' to make she all her kids have been born. Going in as far as your wrist on a full size doe isn't going to tell you anything.

Sara


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Remember the uterus is a heart, with two 'horns' never understood the horn analogy myself. Anita, go put your arm next to the newborn buck. Now think about where your wrist is in comparison to where it is on the buckling...think you could have felt anything? Think even with your whole arm in you could have done any damage? Unless you are built like Arnold Schwartznager you aren't hurting anything putting your arm in. You need to change the "It looks like there was only two kids" to I did a pelvic and there was only two kids.

And no I do not put does on antibiotics for perfectly normal deliveries like you had.

Yes you can move to calcium injections, and also oxytocin...but we teach baby steps on the forum because they are read by all levels of folks with goats in which some of what we may do on our farms, without us on the phone with them or a vet relationship is dangerous. Vicki


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

I prepare my does for 2 months before kidding by feeding raspberry leaves. This tones the uterus and the muscles involved in birth. It really helps a doe have a good labor that goes quickly and without complications. Last year I got too busy or forgot or something, but I didn't do the raspberry leaves. We had a lot more misaligned kids, long labors and difficult births. 

You can give your doe a strong raspberry leaf tea now to help her body recover from the delivery and help get any more kids out if there are any. Add two handfuls of the dried, cut and sifted leaves to 1 pint of water. Slowly heat the water (with the leaves added) until it just comes to a boil. Then remove from the heat and allow to sit for at least 3 hours. Keep covered the whole time it is heating and steeping. Opening the cover lets out important oils. You can add a teaspoon of real honey. Make sure it isn't *regular* honey from the store which often has corn syrup added and is from sugar water fed bees.

Oh, and I agree with Vicki and Sara, you don't know if there are more kids or not, unless you stick your whole arm in.

Good luck with your doe!


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

That raspberry leaf tea works for humans as well... there are a whole host of herbs for helping sluggish labor in human... anyone know if any of those also work or are safe for goats? I wonder if additional calcium might help me in my sluggish labors...?!


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

Eliya, where can I find the leaves? 

Thanks,

Paula


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Paula, some health food stores will sell them. I order them over the internet from herbalcom.com AmeriHerb has better prices, but I haven't been able to get a hold of them for several months. Herbalcom.com is the next best price I can find anywhere. I just bought 30 lbs for my does. 
Like Billie said, there are lots of herbs that help with sluggish labor. And you can use most if not all of them on goats. You may be interested in the book "The Complete Herbal Handbook For Farm and Stable" by Juliette de Bairacli Levy. Fascinating book with TONS of good information on raising animals naturally and using herbs to heal when they do get sick.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

BUT and I am a natural freak you can't rely on just herbals alone in a case like this you need to have the drugs on hand to use if needed.


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## ChristinaF. (Dec 2, 2008)

Another place for getting red raspberry leaves and lots of other herbs for good prices is www.bulkherbstore.com . I use them when I'm expecting and they have really helped. I wouldn't use them soley if my doe was having trouble though. Then you need extra help fast. The red raspberry is more of a preventive measure, but won't always ensure an easy birth with everyone every time.

Christina


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Unless you just have a few does, have the time, all that jazz...you NEED to have some type(oral or injectable) of Calcium supplement on hand. This IS Jan. and JUST the beginning of kidding season. Don't wait until you have a doe that quits pushing, goes down on you before due date, develops milk fever, etc... At LEAST look at your feed stores and make sure they carry the needed supplies.
Nothing is more irritating than for me to need something NOW and I don't have it! It's called planning. That stuff doesn't ruin and until you open it, it can sit on the shelf or opened, in the refrig.!
If you have livestock, there are a few things that you need to keep on hand. It's like having a dog and no dog food. :really
Kaye


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## paulaswrld (Mar 2, 2008)

Thanks so much, great websites. Yes, I agree with kaye and Sondra. I (DD)mpicked up my bottle of CMPK injectable, oxy, and Calcium last week. CDT was ordered and kidding pens have been built in my garage....First doe is due 2/5....what a great time of year.

Paula


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Too add to Kaye's post, as we get further into kidding season you have to remember that you are asking questions of us, who have spend hours writing on here for you to learn. We will be kidding out our own does, taking the time to help others, and everything we have said for years is for naught? You must go prepared into kidding season. IF you don't have the basics on hand the only answer we can give you is to call the vet or kill the doe and get the kids out.

If one person calls me who hasn't done a pelvic and wants me to guess over the phone if she has passed her placenta or has more kids in her because she is big, I will come on the forum and make fun of you publically :crazy

Call *before* you have the train wreck of kids in which the doe has pushed for hours, and you have watched, I will help you go in and figure out what you are feeling. Call me before 10am? it had better be life and death :twisted

I know some have not had children, but be logical about this, even if you drink raspberry tea everyday, would your OB not do a pelvic to feel for presentation? Go home and go to bed without seeing placenta? The nurses make sure the baby isn't latched on and nursing well before leaving for work? Let you push until you are exhausted and then perhaps interveen?

Get your kidding kit ready now, get your basic kid meds now. Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> wants me to guess over the phone if she has passed her placenta or has more kids in her because she is big,


 :rofl No explaination needed!

LOL...course I AM in a good mood today and still have two weeks vacation BEFORE kidding starts! 
Kaye


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

well between My doe and Bethany's doe, we ought to have Everyone sufficiently panicked enough to have picked up the meds they need by now : )
Which is probably why I posted in the first place ; )


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## ChristinaF. (Dec 2, 2008)

Yes, I'm taking my GP puppies to the vet this week and I'm bringing a list of RX items that I'm purchasing from the vet that day. Kidding starts for us in February. I'm getting prepared now.

Christina


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

to add... the red raspberry leaf tea... I buy "Pregnancy Tea" from Traditional Medicinals. It's the same thing. For me, if it's working, I'd hate to see what my labors would be like w/o it. But, in some women, it does work wonders. I had been an "all-natural" kind of person for years, but have learned the hard way that sometimes drugs are a necessity. And thankful to be a human, b/c in my last labor, they'd had to have just shot me and taken the baby!


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Well, at least I had what I needed on hand for this delivery. Last year I had next to nothing and knew next to nothing. Many things I am still unsure of, for fear of causing harm. For instance, the bottle of CMPK injectable that I had gave dire warnings about it possibly causing cardiac arrest. I remember this doe last year took all day to have two kids. I never went in and everyone here told me I should have because the kids were surely tangled. This year I didn't wait. I had my printed sheets I got here on this forum and when it said to inject 30 cc of CMPK in two different places for sluggish labor I did it and it worked. (I had already gone in and found kid #2 way down in the birth canal..this was about 30 or 40 minutes later). Once I gave the injections I rechecked and could feel the kid getting closer and that it was in the correct position. It was afterward I got confused. I went in to what seemed to be the bottom of her uterus. I couldn't go any farther, and I didn't feel anything. I watched her the rest of the night and kept her in a stall until this morning. Her stomach looks flatter today and she seems just fine. Her milk is starting to come in and the babies are growing and have already gained weight since yesterday. Does the size difference seem abnormal? (8 pound buck, 4 pound doe, delivered on day 148?) The doe definately does not seem anywhere near as mature as he is. Her legs are more wobbly and her face looks much tinier. She is gaining weight (my scale said 6 pounds today, after a meal), but I'm wondering if this size difference is common, or if she could be a runt? I am definately glad I used the dex along with the lute as I feel she might not have survived. 
Thanks so much. I was listening!
Anita


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> For instance, the bottle of CMPK injectable that I had gave dire warnings about it possibly causing cardiac arrest


LOL...yes, it will, in a cow or goat if you give it IV as directed on the bottle, without knowing how. Those are also warnings for the IV use in cattle as that's what it's intended.
Reason we spend so much of our time finding out the proper doses and ways of using it FOR GOATS BEFORE we list it on here.
Kaye


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I've seen litters where the kids were different size. If the doe was still with the buck, she coulld have conceived the doeling a week later. I've also had times when I hand bred and know all the kids were the same age and one kid was alot smaller. Kathie


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

usually here at least when more than one kid there is always a tiny one, and usually a doeling.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Do the tiny ones catch up later on?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Mine have but of course the does are never as big as the bucks anyway.


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

hmmmm......this will be tough for me because I am a non-interventionist when it comes to human birthing. I had 3 kids born in hospital and birthing center with midwives and zero meds (except for tylenol afterward) who did not routinely do pelvics to check for presentation. My one son who was a complicated malpresentaion was checking frequently by the midwife, but he still came out facing the wrong way, nothing she could do. It was heroic. I felt like I was hit by a train and begged for intervention at that point. But it still came down to me. I wonder how much intervention is really necessary. I think it will be hard for me because I have never been at a goat birth, and I am a "picker" LOL. I cant leave anything alone when its up to me to supervise. It will be hard for me to back off and let things happen. Hard for me to know when something needs doing, really needs doing, and not for the sake of "moving things along" because they dont fit a testbook timeframe. This is what is wrong with human birthing. Too much intervention. Mama can do it alone 95% of the time. But, as these are just my ramblings on the near-perfection of nature and not the worst of all situations and I have ZERO experience in ths arena, take it for what its worth.....just a little wandering rambling wonderment.....

LOL!


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Well, if I had an educated vet standing nearby telling me I did not need to intervene, I'd be fine with that. Problem is, if things get too bad, there aint nobody here but me to fix them. No vet will come out here for a goat. Already tried every vet in the area I could think of. I have to learn to intervene so hopefully I'll know when I need to, and when I don't. As far as my own births, they were all uncomplicated, mid-wife assisted births. No drugs, as if that has anything to do with anything. I'm not pro-intervention, just want live and healthy kids and mama, whatever it takes.
Anita


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Vets can be so stubborn sometimes. From that aspect they have a _lot_ in common with goats. Don't know why they wouldn't come out and care for one. :lol


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

Hey Anita--
I agree to be ready for anything. Not saying not to intervene or anything, in case it sounded like it did. As far as drugs having to do with anything, I think they do! I mean, inducing labor can cause kids to be malpositioned and cause stress for the whole process, for the neonate and tire the mother out, prolonging the whole event. So, I do think drugs and interventions can be a bad thing, at least for human labors, and I can only assume for animal birthings too, that said, I want to be ready when something goes wrong too cause there is no one else who can fix it but you, like you said. Its just hard for me to know when things are going fine or not, cause I am a newbie. But my goat just kidded and it took like *snap!* that long! So if she is any indicater of a normal goat labor, than anything laboring longer than 1/2 hr needs checking!


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2009)

peregrine said:


> As far as drugs having to do with anything, I think they do! *I mean, inducing labor can cause kids to be malpositioned and cause stress for the whole process, for the neonate and tire the mother out, prolonging the whole event. So, I do think drugs and interventions can be a bad thing, at least for human labors, and I can only assume for animal birthings too,* that said, I want to be ready when something goes wrong too cause there is no one else who can fix it but you, like you said. Its just hard for me to know when things are going fine or not, cause I am a newbie. But my goat just kidded and it took like *snap!* that long! So if she is any indicater of a normal goat labor, than anything laboring longer than 1/2 hr needs checking!


Actually that is _very_ incorrect. I have induced hundreds of does over the years, in fact I induce every doe in my herd every year. I have no more problems with malpositioned kids than a herd that doesn't induce. Inducing enables me to be present for every birth. In the event there is a problem, I am always there to assist. BTW, I certainly won't let my goats labor for 30 minutes before checking to see what is going on. If you wait that long you could very easily have a trainwreck.

Please refrain from posting incorrect information, especially when you have no experience with goat birthing yourself.

Sara


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

I totally agree with Sara. 
Ummmm....human birthing and livestock birthing is a wee bit different!
Imagine a mid-wife coming at you with a set of OB chains or a kid snare.? We CAN get our hands into a doe and rearrange kids. We CAN shoot the doe, in a lost cause, and retrieve the live kids. A wee bit different.



> I felt like I was hit by a train and begged for intervention


Now, tell me why I should let my doe feel like this when a simple *intervention* would ease her pain?


> My one son who was a complicated malpresentaion was checking frequently by the midwife, but he still came out facing the wrong way, nothing she could do.


This is why we advise intervention. You KNOW that there is a problem before the kid gets lodged into the birth canal and can turn it right side up, around, or adjust the kid for a normal presentation.


> But my goat just kidded and it took like *snap!* that long! So if she is any indicater of a normal goat labor, than anything laboring longer than 1/2 hr needs checking!


That is normal, but the ones you read about on here...are NOT. At one time we did an informal poll and it was close to 2,000 head. And so far we've heard of 2 goats with labor problems? Why? Because we moderators stress *intervention* if you even THINK a doe is in trouble. The members have read of problems and the solutions and use that information to their benefit. They know by watching their does which ones have birthing problems and are ready to intervene in case she has the same problem the next year. 


> I mean, inducing labor can cause kids to be malpositioned and cause stress for the whole process, for the neonate and tire the mother out, prolonging the whole event. So, I do think drugs and interventions can be a bad thing


I respectfully disagree with that statement. It can actually speed things along, you don't have to *guess* if that doe is in labor~2 shots and that doe IS in labor-definately. I like Sara have induced goats for over 20 years and have had maybe 2 or 3 problems...that I easily solved because I KNEW the doe was in trouble. Probably at LOT less problems than herds that don't induce and certainly herds that don't intervene!

Everyone has their own ideas of how things should be done but there ARE other options and there are those of us that have the *experience* to advise you on how to.
JMO,
Kaye


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2009)

Inducing labor with livestock and humans are two totally different things. That is one thing that you need to remember when you are dealing with livestock. Since, there is more research done on the reproduction of livestock than there is with humans.

It has been a common pratice with livestock to use prostagladin f2<alpha> since the mid 60's with cattle. Mostly beef cattle in the early days to get the calving done to just a few weeks. That way they will reach the market at the same time and have the same weights when they are at the market. It was stated in a research paper that was published in 1977, Use of Prostagladin f2<aphla> to Induce Parturition in Beef Heifers, farmers could make out better with the use of inducing labor since, they will be there for a set period of time and see the calvings are they progressed. Thus, not needing the vet out to help with troubled labor. Since, they will catch them faster.

They found NO difference in abnormal birth with the heifers that they induced. Both was at the 3% range, which is common in first calf heifers. Udder devolopment was smaller in the induced heifers as they was induced at 263, and control was given no hormones. Now, remember that cattle calve at 270 roughly...so they was a week early. Where that is common with early calved heifers to have smaller udders .

Now, in a study that Univ of MO did in 1974 with the use of Estrogen and Dexamethasone. Showed that there was NO difference in the labor with cattle induced and the control group. Both had the same percent of abnormal presentation of calves, retained placenta, and same udder devolopment. The reseach found that the use of Dexamethsone, was to help with the last delopment of the sex organs...ie...mammary,reproduction, immune organs.

The only down fall of inducing labor with any livestock is the lower fat content that will be present in the colostrum. But, that is been reseached to death and have found that the fat in the colostrum is not as important as they once thought. Since, they whole theory of fatty colostrum is to give energy was found that it was the protien in the colostrum that was of more importance. Also, they found no decrease in the immunoglobulin G concentrations. That is what really gives the first line of defense to any newborns. They also found that if you raise the fat concentration in the feed that you are feeding that the fat percentage will raise back to the standard level. So, really if you are up on management then you will not see a down fall on inducing labor.

With just the research that I have posted I would see no side effects of inducing labor in animals. Since, they have not found anything that would cause ill effects. Its all that you make of it, yes, I know that some people think you are acting as god when you mess with hormones. But, with the amount of TRUE research out there, there is no reason to not to use hormones to induce labor on livestock. This is a subject that has had over 30 years of research done on it....infact in the Dec Journal of Animal Science there was 42 papers that was presented on reproduction. Its something that is not researched lightly, its a multi-million dollar industury. So, why not use some of that research that our tax money has went to, and use it on our farms.

Ken


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Just adding that the biggy to remember is that with human pregnancy the child can be manipulated and presentatiion checked from the outside.

And as a 51 year old grandma, I would be dead and I would not have had my 3 children had I been a "non-interventionist when it comes to human birthing."

Although we can use our common sense of our births and lactations on our goats....putting human emotions or moralities onto our goats simply doesn't work.

You won't read on here many of the 1000's of normal births that will happen on our forum, so in helping make sure you understand that you are reading about a very small percentage of problem births actually happening. And like Kaye says, happening only because they are either new and havne't read alot of what we have said, or simply choose not to do pelvics...or feed enough calcium...or take care of mineral defficencies they know are in their area...etc. Vicki


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Have to say that when an induction prolongs a human labor, it's because it is used too early. Drugs can be a bad thing in human labors, but they can be very necessary as well. We have to be careful not to make a religion out of a method... from someone who has learned the hard way!


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