# Long hair on LM - Pic added



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I have a five and a half month old LM doeling who is getting the longest hair I have ever seen on a LM. Her mom had longish hair which I kept trimmed but this doelings hair is really growing. She is the color of a Togg. Does any one else have a LM with long hair?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

I remember amazing photos of Romaha in Oklahoma- they had long hair and skirts that were a foot long- beautiful when groomed but I guess they had to clip for show because those pics are not up anymore. 
So yes there must be long hair in LM lines.
Lee


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## jillig (Jul 21, 2009)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

One of my yearlings, Cinnamon, had long hair when I got her. I trimmed it in June when it got really hot. I can tell now that it is starting to grow again-when her hackles are up, the hair looks particularly long.
She is named cinnamon because that was the color of her coat when we got her. Once I trimmed her up...she is chocolate!


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

Lee, Is Romaha a website, a herd name or what? I would love to see those pics. 
Jillian, this doeling was root beer colored when she was born and then when we trimmed her last May she was also chocolate. I wonder if it is from the Togg influence in some lines.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

My doe had longer hair when she was copper deficient, not long like that though.


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## jillig (Jul 21, 2009)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

Do toggs have longer hair?


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

Yea, they can get very long hair.


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## catdance62 (Mar 2, 2009)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

I've had a couple LMs with long hair. But, I have a goat of dubious heritage that has the longest hair ever!! A "skirt" like a '57 Cadillac! I swear!


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

That's hilarious, Sandy!
I had wondered about copper also since I haven't bolused or liver biopsied. I do feed good minerals though. And her coat is shiny and soft, just long.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

I have found that there are at least 2 types of LaMancha's , I have tall big does ,straight nose and short hair and then I have seen shorter LM's with a dish face and long hair .


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

Michelle, my Nubians have (and always have had) super shiney coats--would never guess a copper deficiency based on that. But, hooves got soft and that was my first clue. Don't know that what you're seeing isn't genetic, but thought I'd mention it, because a dull coat might not be your first clue.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

Thanks Billie. This doeling does have very soft hooves. They were so soft when she was born that they were squashed -looking and one hoof had a very close surface vein that bled badly when I tried to trim it.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

I think that's probably typical of newborn hooves, but they should firm up. My adult does' hooves started getting thorns in them, and they should have been strong enough to resist that. My bucks' hooves started cutting like butter--easy for me to trim, but no good for them! Sometimes, no matter how much you read, it's hard to see the signs of copper deficiency in your herd b/c you see the changes slowly so don't notice as much. I had begun to suspect it, but my vet said, "Surely not." Then I had someone else out here and had all the copper deficiency signs in my herd pointed out to me on a live in my face animal. Made a world of difference, and every one manifested it in different ways--all had the hooves, but only one was missing some hair on the tip of her tail. Only a couple were fading (and one has moonspots in his pedigree, so in denial, I blamed that). My bucks were also getting little bald spots on their sides back by their hips--I thought they were mounting each other and wearing the hair off or something, but it turns out that was a copper issue, too.

Anyhow, when you look at some of the goats that ours stem from, I wouldn't be shocked to see long hair. At the same time, I would be looking for copper issues, particularly if you don't bolus, herdwide to see if you may need it.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

Micheal I have copper if you need to bolus


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

Thanks again Billie for the info. The dam of this particular doeling always looked like she had copper issues. Bad hooves, rough hair coat, bald tail... 
So Sondra I really should bolus. I will take you up on it.


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## melisdelights (Sep 20, 2009)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

When I took one of my does to be bred, the breeder had a lamancha with super long hair. I'm guessing its a copper deficiency.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Long hair on LM*

Here is the doeling I was talking about. I bolused her today so we will see how it affects her

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

SHAVE HER AND THEN PUT A COAT ON HER


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Cool cowlicks! It looks like she was attacked by a cow as a matter of fact  I have a Nubian that grows hair like that.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I am dying to shave her so she looks "normal" :rofl She does look like she attacked by a cow!


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

She's a pretty girl ! Her fur looks like winter fur tho,maby we are going to have a hard winter or something as animals sorta know those things and prepare for them. I think the bolus will really help her body wise and also her fur, come spring you can buzz her off and she will grow beautiful shiny fur just in time for milking


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

It IS supposed to be a bad winter...


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

The long range forecast from NOAA is for warmer and wetter for our area- anything in the gulf influence.
I think with copper bolus that goat would have long silky hair all growing in one direction. This multi directional hair growth will correct right away with appropriate mineral levels- been there- seen that! No More!
L


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

While I am not going to argue that bolusing isn't necessary- bolusing is good- but there is nothing abnormal about multidirectional hair growth! I have smooth coated goats and cowlicked goats, I have seen the same thing in almost every breed of livestock- cowlicks alone are not a sign of a deficiency


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh my gosh ! Hilarious, I guess maybe we are in for a heck of a winter


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Well Michelle I am sorry I don't have before and after pics but I have to disagree.
Multidirectional hair growth is not normal on livestock. They have areas of the body where the hair grows slightly angled to another but there is a mineral or nutritional issue if they have swirls and hand prints of hair and movement in all directions.
There is nothing normal about that. 
If your animal has a real 'cowlick' it will be there when it is born and never change. 
Changing hair arrangement is nutritional. The animals that do not have it under the same care as ones who do are just better at putting their nutrition where it is needed. If you watch closely all thru the year the coat on the ones with flyaway hair will change and the degree to which it cowlicks will change with stress and kidding and weather and feed. It is only a cow lick if it never changes.
Lee


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

This girl has hair that grows in every which direction, but it's short and sleek and you probably couldn't tell from the photo. She shows no other signs of mineral deficiencies. All of my Nubians have hair that does this, as well as swirls and cowlicks and the like. They are all in the same places, too. Since they all descend from the same doe (dam or granddam), I believe it's genetic.

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks for the photo Billie. that's actually really cool looking. I guess time will tell if copper is an issue with my girl.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

What is genetic is the tendency to do this- not that their hair is like that. 
I have a older doe and all generations of her kids have the same issues- hard to get their nutrition balanced.
But when you do- it is obvious.

I cannot tell you how many Nubian breeders have told me this is just in the history of the Nubian breed.
What is in the history of the breed and all others was our lack of understanding of their nutrition.
There is a lot of complex interaction in the system of the ruminant. B vitamins are crucial for enzymes that make other nutrients available and altho they may perform wonderfully otherwise-the last icing on the cake is that immaculate coat. When you get it right for each animal they will look like you waxed them and all the hair will grow in a natural direction which is in harmony with the muscle groups. 

This does not mean your goats are unhealthy- it just means we have taken them so far from what they were to some place where we have to shave them to make them look perfect. This is not the case in reality. IF you get them balanced nutritionally when they shed in summer they will look exactly like you clipped and waxed them. Winter hair should grow in smoothly and relaxed so the structure of the animal is what you see not the hair directions. 

I have made this a pet project for many years now so you will not convince me that bad hair is natural.
(except for mine!) It is the first thing to go and the last thing to come all the way back.
I started out researching metabolic issues post kidding and when I worked on some fixes for those issues I noticed that all of a sudden the coats on the does that had problems looked like they just walked out of the show ring. I have done many things that are off label and have no research to back them up but darlin I have shiny short haired smooth coated Nubians! 

One thing that improved them markedly was free feeding yeast with probiotics.
The next was getting zinc and copper circulating regularly. 
I really should have done a photo journal with all of this but I promise you I had some raggedy looking goats that turned around completely with lots of research and experimenting. Bad hair no more!~ 
Breeders everywhere have poohpoohed me so I am used to it- but you won't convince me I am wrong!

Lee

Billie- see where her coat sweeps up towards the spine from the shoulder and along the top of ribcage- Her hair is shiny so she is almost there- just a little off which is keeping the directional flow from evening out. Mine will fluctuate when something is amiss and this is one of the first locations they start to move the hair awry. That 4 inches down from the spine is your first indicator that something is lacking. What it is will be a long time of study to determine in each animal. It can be as simple as a bit of tussling in herd standing or as serious as gut damage and inability to pick up needed nutrition. The only reason I can even speak to this is I have had the same goats for a decade now and had their parents before them and I have watched the changes over a long time in response to my trials.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Well, what you said about looking show clipped resonates here. I have one doe (the only one w/hair missing at the tip of her tail, but I *just* bolused) that visitors ask if I just shaved her. I've never had a razor to her in her life. Yet, see right in front of her udder and up a little? There's a patch growing differently. Is this what you mean by in accordance with the muscle? Or would you see this as a deficiency?

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

You will see that convergence of hair direction in that area on all animals. 
Horses- dogs...But she is very nice and smooth and you can see that because her coat is not distracting your eye.
She is genetically correct for delivering her nutrition where it is needed. KEEP THE DOES! I did find before and after of one horror story and will try to get it sized down to post. Even winter coats should lay down. 
Lee


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I'd love to see before and after pics, Lee.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I'd like to see your before & after pics, too. I think these are really informative and helpful. Keep the does? I already sold them! They'll get picked up Saturday morning. Keeping my life simpler with one breed, and I really like the folks that are buying them--super sweet! Incidentally, these are American Nubians, and in winter, they put some Angora undercoats on them. It fuzzes out in the spring (they love the undercoat rake!) Only non PB in their pedigree is a Spanish buck from some wildlife reservation in TX that sired a half-Nubian doe (El Kahira Kienan Heidi) in 1973.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

This is a doe when I first bought her and after I sold her with the owner keeping on my mineral regime.

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Although you're in a different area and mineral needs would be different, I'd love to hear what your mineral regime is... If you're so inclined to start another thread describing your quest for this and how you adjusted your minerals based on other minerals and environmental factors, that would be lovely.... but a lot of work, I'm sure, so if you're not so inclined, that would be okay.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

You are correct that needs will vary from region to region but also from animal to animal and certainly I have found Nubians to be the most difficult and needy. My advice would be to read read read. Buy books and takes notes and think about everything from the standpoint of nutrition. Get your soil tested - test your hay and know your concentrates. The whole fix is not just minerals and I have been culling for those that cannot be fixed easily hoping to produce more consistency in easy care coat. Most of the really good books are very expensive so I watch for used copies- There are many journals and articles on this topic online. I print them out and try to correlate the info from other sources. It helps I am married to someone who taught the sciences and we toss all this info around to form strategies.

I should perhaps add a caution to my previous post. When I started my does on yeast I did so very cautiously. It can cause upset and loose stools and so I top dressed at the milk stand with 2 heaping tablespoons and got them started that way and put it out in limited amts until they quit acting like idiots about it and then it was ok to let them free feed it. They act like it is the best thing they ever tasted and I know would make themselves ill on it. Some more than others so there again each animal is a study on it's own.

Lee


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

My LM herd was famous for long hair on the legs, or as I refered to them, "feather-britches". Then I used a non-hairy buck and the kids were non-hairy.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm sure some of it is genetic. I just want to make sure it isn't caused by bad nutrition. The goats I have with Spanish blood have always gotten a thick plush winter coat that slicked off in Summer but they didn't look like they stuck their hooves in light socket!


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## catdance62 (Mar 2, 2009)

I have a LaMancha who has been bolused and is in good health and her winter coat grows every which way!! Plus she gets "fender skirts" on her back legs!


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## debrad636 (Jul 17, 2008)

Hopefully that doesn't mean a long cold winter!! They say, when animals put their winter coats on heavy, means bad cold.
She is cute. If you don't like all that hair, she could come stay here with me and be warm this winter.

Thank Deb


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I think she looks warm. I wouldn't shave her going into winter. A man-made coat won't protect her like her own fur coat will. Cpurse, your Texas winters might not be as chilly as we get here in Va.


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