# Probios useless? What to use instead?



## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

Recently, several threads have dealt with rumen activity or lack thereof. And it has been mentioned that giving Probios is "busy work" because it doesn't have anything in it to help the rumen, only the intestine. I was under the impression that was what the Probios was for. So, do we know exactly what bacteria(s) is/are needed to improve the rumen? If so, what/where/how do we do this? 
I did some searching for information on the Diamond V yeast, but the ingredients list wasn't very helpful. Do the labels on the bags have better/more information than their website? What is in the yeast that is for the rumen rather than the intestine?


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Probios useless? Completely confused*

it is my understanding that the only way to truly repopulate a rumen is with the rumen contents of a healthy goat. And proper diet so that the rumen environment is balanced.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Probios useless? Completely confused*

yes a cud from another healthy goat is the way to go. That being said I use probios all the time


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Probios useless? Completely confused*

I use it all the time, too. It does help when giving antibiotics and dewormers, doesn't it?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Probios useless? Completely confused*

I don't really know but I use the powdered granules in their feed when ever I give antibiotics/wormers /etc.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Probios useless? Completely confused*

regarding Diamond V Yeast
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...ond+v+yeast+analysis&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

Vicki mentioned someone on Nubian talk (which I am not on at the moment) who had done research into this subject. Can anyone point me in the direction of some more information. I have used Probios, but if it is not doing what I want it to do, there really isn't much point in wasting time and money. 
When the rumen bacteria needs rebuilt, the only way to really do it properly is to do a cud transfer??


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Karin Christensen, you can google her, she has some cool info out on the internet. Ask her for the list of beneficial bacteria found in the rumen, none is in probios accept acidopholius....this information I though we had on this site, it must be on the old goatkeepingplus.com Because as soon as I heard about it I posted it and we then looked up the info on kefir to see if it could be used instead of probios. We know probiotics are for the intestine in people of course, so not sure why it took so long to learn this about the rumen.

I do use probios in my kids because they are single stomached animals.

Prevention is key of course for everything in your adults. Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

here is an excerp from her (Karin Christensen) book regarding rumens
http://www.goatbiology.com/animations/funguslc.html


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

How do baby goats get these bacteria? Lacto would be in the milk right, but what about the others, do they just make their way into the rumen from the environment?


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## goat girl (Dec 11, 2007)

Okay, this is definitely a newbie question. How do you get the cud from one goat to give to another?

Christine


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I watch the goats for one chewing her cud. I put one hand under her muzzle to try and keep her from swallowing it while carefully inserting a finger from the other hand into her mouth to fish some out. Sometimes I need to try a couple times before I get some. It's important to be careful because goats have sharp back teeth. Kathie


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Not one more person can have a user name that starts with goat 

Your vet can tube rumen contents out and tube them right into a ill goat. Teaching universities also have rumen cows you can get cud from through a port in their rumen. I am much more agressive about collecting cud, it's about getting the doe in a stranglehold/half nelson so she can't swallow the cud, nothing gentle and sweet about it  Vicki


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

To get cud, I jump on them and use a tablespoon to rake it out of their mouths so I don't get bitten. And then rush it into the other one's mouth 'cause I heard it doesn't live long out of goat. And I believe that the baby goats get the bacteria from their mother when they lick the baby's mouth.


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## Lafingkid (Jul 9, 2008)

I've been thinking about this question a lot because I've recently been diagnosed with a candida overgrowth.  The nutritionist told me to get a probiotic and make sure that it is refridgerated.  That it is no good unless it is.  Wouldn't the same go with probios?  I've never found probios in the refridgerater even though Vicki has told us to store it in the refridgerator.  I'm wondering if a good plain yogurt would be better?  The nutritionist recommended White Mountain Bulgarian Yogurt.  It has L. Acidophilus, L. Bulgaricus, S. Thermophilus, and B. Bifidum.  This yogurt has nothing else but Grade A pasteurized nonfat (or whole) milk.

Lisa


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You correct Lisa, and the more you look into stuff like this, especially those who use keifer, you know just how fake alot of the probiotic information is. My customers have spent thousands of dollars on the cure all that is the probiotic movement. I don't see how anything freeze dried is going to be much good, or alive.

HEB has a similar yogurt that is just culture, milk etc...in glass jars. But you need to try kefir. Vicki


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

So, what I am getting out of this is: Use Probios for kids and perhaps in adults that have stool problems. Yogurt or Kefir for helping the rumen. Is this the general consensus?
Also, if freeze dried is not good, what is feeding the yeast doing for the goat? Is it for the rumen or for?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Read up on diamond V yeast it is a whole nother thing.

With all immunity, which is what helps the goat get over any disease or virus being all from the intestine, certainly probiotics have thier place for keeping the intestine healthy. Just know that the old information that comes out of all of us, give probios, has it's limits. Vicki


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

I did some searching on the Diamond V yeast. The little bit of information that I got off their website (ingredients and such) didn't help me much. I have been feeding a product (Fastrack) that has similar (if not the same) ingredients in it, and in my experience it is producing the same results as the yeast is touted to. I was never able to get any yeast and unfortunately, my local feed store just sold out and they will no longer do special orders (yeast, kelp, etc.). :mad 
My brain hurts from all the information, research and trying to figure out how best to keep my goats healthy. :crazy


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

I've heard good things about fasttrack... what have you experienced?


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

A couple of thoughts....

First of all, Probios may do some good. We use it routinely when we give a doe antibiotics. Sort of a "replenish the system" kind of thing. Definitely useful for kids. If a doe just seems a little "off", we will give B-complex and Probios and she seems to bounce right back. Was the probios responsible? Not sure, but it can be one of those, "Can't hurt, might help" types of things. And I would rather just have a little bump in the road than have to pull her out of a pit later, metaphorically speaking. 

If a doe is really ill and has lost her cud (rumen activity) then cud stealing seems to be the only true way to jump start her again. And the results can be dramatic - almost miraculous.

Cud stealing ought to be an Olympic sport. The first time I steal cud, we are pretty successful. Second time may be Okay if some of the does weren't around when we stole cud from the first goat. After that, as soon as they see me coming everyone swallows and runs! I am not kidding!!! And stealing cud from a normally peaceful but very powerful Saanen can be like joining the rodeo! Generally sport several bandaids after a spree of cud stealing. Sharp teeth back there! 

For those with limited success with cud stealing, Annette Maze gave me her "homemade probios" recipe which we have used fairly successfully in the past:

1) Collect fresh nanny berries from your oldest/healthiest doe.
2) Place in a blender with a little warm water or whey
3) Add some high quality plain yogurt - a Tbsp or so
4) Blend
5) Drench the ill goat with the stuff
6) Scrub out your blender!! 

Some may say the yogurt was the real trick, but Annette has been doing this a long time....some of the old tricks/methods really do work.

Just sharing....


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## Lafingkid (Jul 9, 2008)

The stuff from HEB in the glass jar is the stuff I am talking about for the yogurt.  That is how she told me to find it.  I just happen to have some in my fridge so I was able to look at the label  :lol

Lisa


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Course you know when you have does fresh you can culture this stuff into your goatmilk and have real milk in it instead of pasturised  Vicki


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

soooo... has nobody used Fastrack? I was under the impression it was a probiotic feed and heard it was really good... but reading all your opinions leads me to belive it wouldn't be all that helpful... has anyone tried using FT?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Same thing, no rumen bacteria in it. Karin hasn't answered me yet I will post as soon as she does.

It's not that probiotics are useless, they are fine in your kids until they are chewing cud. They are fine for the intestines and with all immuinty coming from the intestinal wall, and almost all nutrients absorbed in them, it's important to keep them healthy also...why cocci prevention is such a huge concern, ruin the intestines and you have ruined the goat. Vicki


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

Okay Thanks Vicki! It's such a whirlwind changing my management practices... and re-learning all these things I thought were true... At least I'm doing all this only 3 yrs into goats, not 30  
I need to make a completely new Jeffers order LOL


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ashley even I come around when the science is behind it...there is all sorts of things us older broads do because it works, that doesn't have much science behind it  I think the young gals get great pleasure in trying to prove us wrong, I say go for it! Saves us money and time doing busy work in the end. Vicki


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## NWgoats (Jul 17, 2008)

I actually do use the FT. Have for a couple of years. Don't know if it helps, but it can't hurt. I do know that my goats have not had any "poop related" problems. Only had one case of diarrhea in that time and that was because the neighbor was giving my goats "treats" over the fence. 
My girls are quite healthy and keep weight on quite easily, even when milking. They don't get much grain either. So, I don't know if it has anything to do with the FT or all my girls are "easy keepers". Suppose I could test the theory by stopping with the FT, but I figure if it is working why change it? Probably not much help with this post, this is just what we do here.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I used the FT and don't like it as well as the powder/grandular probios but then I only use if someone is off or on antibiotics with adults.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

,
Posted with permission by Karin Christensen:


It's nice to hear that my relentless campaign against the myth that probios
restarts rumens has been worth it.

I've compiled a list of the main bacteria found in a normal, balanced rumen
of domestic ruminants from an article by James B. Russell and Jennifer L.
Rychlik titled "Factors that Alter Rumen Microbial Ecology" and from
Dehority's Rumen Microbiology. You can compare them with the list of
ingredients in any bacterial culture such as yogurt, keifer or probiotics.
You won't find them there. If you have a product that comes in a tube, sits
on your shelf, or that was prepared in the presence of oxygen you can count
on the fact that it does not contain any rumen bacteria since they could not
survive in those conditions.

Lactobacillus acidophilus is not found in the rumen. Only a few
Lactobacillus species have been identified and then only in young calves
that are still on milk or in ruminants on a high carbohydrate diet. These
Lactobacillus species are L. lactis, L. vitulinus and L. ruminis and one
strain of L. vitulinus that was discovered in reindeer. These species only
produce lactic acid as a fermentation by-product which has a negative effect
on the rumen pH. You would not want to introduce these species or L.
acidophilis to the rumen if it could survive there, because they cause rumen
acidosis.

The species are listed in order of highest numbers to lowest numbers. The
proportion of the different species is related to the components of forage.
For instance, cellulose digesters are in the highest proportion because
forage is highest in cellulose, whereas those that digest protein are found
in lower numbers. There are many other rare species found in both domestic
and wild ruminants not listed here.

Primary species which are cellulose digesters.

Fibrobacter succinogenes
Ruminococcus albus
Ruminococcus flavefaciens -- also digests hemicellulose

Species that digest sugars and starch and found in lower numbers:

Eubacterium ruminantium
Ruminobacter amylophilus
Streptococcus bovis
Succinomonas amylolytica

Less common species that utilize pectin, sugars, starches and lactate:

Prevotella species
Butyrivibrio fibrisolvens
Selenomonas ruminantium
Megasphaera elsdenii
Lachnospira multiparus
Succinivibrio dextrinosolvens
Anaerovibrio lipolytica

Protein digesters:

Peptostreptococcus anaerobious
Clostridium aminophilum
Clostridium sticklandii

Very minor species that utilize organic acids, formate, carbon dioxide and
hydrogen:

Wolinella succinogenes
Methanobrevibacter ruminantium

You are welcome to pass this information to others.

Karin Christensen
..........................................................


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

http://ag.udel.edu/anfs/faculty/kung/articles/direct_fed_microbials_and_enzyme.htm


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## Narrow Chance (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks Vicki ! VERY interesting read! Now? Where do we get this DFM and what is it's brand name?


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## RadioFlyer (Sep 23, 2008)

Can we "sticky" the DMF link and the rumen bacteria info?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2009)

This makes more sense every time I read it. :yes

I've always said that a little dirt won't hurt......and that doe berry mix mentioned, adds to what I posted a couple years ago about me listening to two old cow farmers down here, and one talking about drenching a calf that had bad diarrhea, with some fresh (normal) cow manure......and how he quit loosing calves after he had learned how to use this rather radical way of thinking.

It would be interesting to see how many of these naturally produced in the rumen substances, are still present in fresh manure. 


Whim


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

When I was using FT for the horses, I don't recall it ever advertising that it was good for the stomach digestion. I think they pushed the fact that it was for intestinal flora, which is where most of the digestion occurs. Was FT originally made for horses and branched out into other types of livestock and pets? When it first came out, I only saw it advertised for horses, but then later saw it used for other classes of livestock. How did it go from an intestinal supplement to a supposed rumen supplement?


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

Could someone provide a link for fasttrack? The only thing I found on a quick google search was for dogs.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2e87c3f2-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5

Hopefully this works. If not, go to Valley Vet.com and type in fast track in the search blank and it will bring it up.


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## homeacremom (Nov 6, 2007)

Thanks!
It doesn't look like fast track and diamond v yeast are the same.


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

I was told Fastrack was specifically designed for ruminants, or had a line designed for them anyhow, and that it not only imrpoved milk production by up to 30% in goats and cows, it also boosted the immune system which made goats more parasite resistant. This person, who has given me loads of horribly incorrect and deadly information mind you, stated that it also improved the absorption of nutrients which meant less poo and healthier goats... they happened to be a dealer of the stuff, so who knows how much is true or not. I could not find any proof to back up the claims so I decided not to buy from them, but it sounded like a wonderful 'miracle' product as far as they experienced... On the other hand I have met, in person, many people who used it on horses with great success... perhaps it's one of those things that can't hurt...


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I know people who use it for their horses, and it helps somewhat, but its not a miracle item like the other person said. All it does is add more bacteria to the intestines. I can't imagine, after millions of years of evolution, that goats, horses, whatever l does not have the right amount or balance of intestinal flora to meet it's every day demands! Bacteria reproduce to make up for the ones that die or pass out with the feces. If an animal has been stressed, sick or given medication that kills off large amounts of the bacteria, then replacing it will help while the natural bacteria reproduce to increase the population. The way I look at it, and I may be all wrong, but....the intestines can only support so many bacteria. The bacteria needs food to survive. An animal can only eat so much food. If you add new bacteria every day, and there is way more bacteria than the normal food amount can support...all the excess bacteria will just pass out the other end and you've wasted all that money. 

There is such a thing as too much of a good thing!


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## 2Sticks (Dec 13, 2007)

Just an interesting note about Diamond-V Yeast.....

Both of may sons work at USA Yeast Plant where they make liquid bakers yeast that is sent in tankers to large bakeries like Flowers and Sara Lee. They are also one of the only plants that makes selenium yeast that is made for Diamond -V yeast and shipped to them as liquid. They have to take special precautions because of the toxicity
of the selenium. I asked my younger son who is a supervisor at the plant what the difference was between the bakers yeast and Diamond-V and he said just the addition of selenium. I know this sounds crazy, but it is very interesting how they make yeast. It's cloned, fed molasses and other additives and then grown in huge tanks.

Tamera


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## Haglerfarm (Aug 11, 2008)

My understanding is that you can get Diamond V yeast, diamond V-XP yeast and Diamond V selenized yeast. All are different. All they carry here is XP, supposedly more concentrated....
I know at the state Goat Producers class they do all over the state they push selenized yeast. But, I cannot get it. They seemed to think this was better than injections in the long run. Who knows. Sort of makes sense since the Bo-Se is actually on in their system a short time. And getting a little each day would be better....
Les


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