# yellow salty milk, urgent!



## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Hi all,

I PM'd someone about this yday but somehow I must have confused them cuz the answer didn't fit my situation.

This is about my FF milker that is pregnant, due in 9-10 weeks and is suddenly drying herself off the past 2 weeks. I posted about her cuz I was worried what this tendency to dry off meant for her future. Everyone agreed it was normal and to quit worrying... ok, fine, thanks...

But while I was asking and hoping to get a few more weeks of good milk from her, I continued to consistently milk her every morning. Vicki reminded me to infuse some Tomorrow and just let her dry off. I needed to get Tomorrow and the closest place is over an hour drive, so I continued milking her daily, until I could get there. A day or two ago, I thought the milk looked a little ivory colored, then yday it was noticeably yellow. I tasted it and it was salty! Now I'm freaking out!

I posted in that thread but it got lost I guess. I'm really worried now if this means she has an infection that needs to be treated before infusing the Tomorrow and quitting milking. I sent a sample off to the lab immediately, but until I get results, what's the best approach? 

I milked her again this morning, barely got any (1/2 cup or less) and its yellow and salty and I'm worried.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

sounds like mastitis so keep milking treat with the tomorrow daily until you get results back then treat accordingly do not dry her off until it is cleared up.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

treat with Tomorrow daily? I want to make sure I understand that right. I'm really worried, this is the worst possible way to end a milking right, with this potentially stewing in there until she freshens again and now she'll have a life long tendency towards this problem?

She's really trying to dry herself off at 9-10 weeks until she's due. I only got less than 1/2 cup out of her this morning, so I can I keep milking or know its cleared up if she's drying herself off? Should I get whatever few squeezes I can 3x/day instead of 1x, will that help? 

With the holiday and then I'm slammed solid with teaching committments starting Sunday thru the week, this might be really hard to juggle. Can we get a head start? There are limited bugs this can be right? So if its staph, I'll need to get ____, if its xyz, I'll need to get _____ ? If I can get the stuff today, then as soon as I can get results I can treat instead of having to find the stuff then when I'm teaching all day and night. I'm teaching 10 min from my house, I can run home and treat or milk, but can't go 1 hr drive to feed store or farther and longer if I have to get something from vet.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Maybe she meant Today? I thought that Tomorrow was a "wait until they're dry and then infuse them and leave it" kind of drug. Hopefully, she'll come back and clarify.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

yes, I'm confused and a bit panicked too!

all you experienced folks out there... any help? Thank you!!!!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't think you should do anything until you get the test back. 1/2 a cup a milking is dry. I always use tommorrow, as a carrier for a more powerful antibiotic during milking or at dry off (where previously I told you to use it because you were drying her up early) when I don't have a problem with a doe, just drying her up early. I use Pirsue for problem does at dry off or Tommorrow and gent.

Just stop milking her, leave her be, see what the test result says. Take a deep breath and relax! Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

listen to Vicki on this, more knowledgable than I am./


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: yellow salty milk, urgent! BAD NEWS*

Ok, bad news from the lab... Staph aureus... :help

Here's a condensed verision of the whole story:

22 mo old FF MiniMancha, 7 month old triplets, doe is now 10-11 weeks pregnant so I had planned to start drying her off in the next 2 weeks, but the past 2 weeks she decided to start drying herself off and her milk production plummeted.

On Saturday, I took routine samples to send in. On Monday, I thought her milk looked maybe a little ivory colored, not pure white, so I took another sample. Tues, it was distinctly yellowish, I took another sample and sent them all in to the lab. Just got preliminary results:

Saturday sample, nothing growing yet
Mon's, staph growing, not enough to tell species yet
Tue's, "Staph aureus - too numerous to count"

They say her drastic decrease in milk is due to this infection scarring her mammary! I thought it was mostly due to stage of pregnancy and that she's noticeably showing pregnant already. How can decrease in milk be due to scarring already if Saturday sample shows nothing growing? Is this typical that it blows up from "nothing" to "too numerous to count" in 3 days?

Lab says treat with IM penicillin and intramammary Pirsue, Hetacin K or Dairy Clox. I'm trying to do things as organically as possible, so I'm not thrilled about this but will sacrifice organic before my doe's health or milking future obviously.

What else can I do? What else least toxic of the EFFECTIVE products do you recommend? Remember she's 10-11 weeks pregnant, this will only be her second freshening so I'm freaked out that this will haunt her whole life... lab says if its a recurring infection, she will be untreatable and the milk undrinkable...

Her temp is normal, the milk didn't look worse today, milk is a little thick, it really looks like colostrum, not clumpy or stringy, just more viscous than normal and someone had said that's normal for drying off.

Feed is free choice good grass hay & almost free choice organic alfalfa pellets, 2-3 cups organic COB per day, free choice Sweetlix Meatmaker plus about a tablespoon mixed into her grain every day. She is the only one that shows the very slightest fishtail now, had a little browning of her black fur last early summer and we Coppasure'd her and it went away, I was going to do that again, do you still think its good or too much? She also gets HorseGuard supplement with organic assimilable (not mining by-product) selenium and Vit E.

Lab also says this is contagious and she should be isolated? I have one other doe milking currently, The Herd Queen, and these two are like cats and try to pretend the other doesn't exist, and each just lead their own little family group, lol. She does still cuddle with her 7 month old triplets and her twin sister who was just bred last week and had precocious milk as a yearling. I did not milk her except for one squirt cuz I was in disbelief that she really had milk, and that was this summer.

I have a brand new bottle of Durvet brand Pen-Aqueous, but it got left out of the fridge yday for about 20 hrs, is it still good?

And I now have both Today and Tomorrrow.

Lab says treat and retest on Monday.

I read the archives here when I was trying to take Vicki's advice to "relax" LOL, but it quickly became all a blur... I'll go back and reread it again, but if anyone can concisely address the specifics in my situation you may save my brain from exploding :?

Help!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

That is so great that you had all those samples and learning the rate of growth of that stuff is scary. 
Thanks for sharing on here that whole rundown.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

*IF* its typical, it is scary! 

I'm really glad I took all the samples too, or I'd be worried sick that this had been incubating for a long time and it was my fault for not noticing it earlier. 

What I didn't do that I should have done, is sample each side separately. I didn't really think I had a problem at first, I was worried but thought cuz she was mid-pregnancy drying herself off that it wouldn't be the first time I was stressing needlessly. So I didn't sample the sides, wish I had now. Both sides feel normal and look the same yellowish. I'm wondering if the yellow is drying off, and a red (yellow, ehhehehee) herring, and the mastitis is a separate issue.


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## 2goatsVA (Aug 29, 2009)

I'm still very very new to dairy goats so I don't know the answers to all of your questions about treatment, but with a background in microbiology, I can tell you that many bacteria replicate very quickly! Some bacteria can replicate in as little as 15 minutes and some takes days. When I was working in a lab, we used E. coli frequently because it replicated easily over a 12 hour period. However, the more finicky bacteria we worked with could take up to a week to replicate to a visible number.

Bacterial growth can be measured on a growth curve, where there includes a period of no growth initially (the lag phase, where the bacteria is taking on nutrients and preparing to replicate), then a period of exponential growth, then a stationary phase where it's all systems go until resources run out, then a death phase begins as resources are depleted. 

From what I remember S.aureus, when grown in a nutrient-rich media, can replicate in about 30 minutes - but it can take longer for colony levels to get to the point of being large enough to be visible.

So, to me, yes it is very possible for bacteria to replicate that quickly! Hope this helps - good luck with your treatment! I'm learning a lot from the board!


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

I also do everything I can as naturally/organically as possible, however, if it means saving the doe I do what I have to..

It doesn't matter what her milk looks like now, you need to take care of this the best way you can. Pirsue and Dairy Clox (Dry Clox) are both prescriptions and if you don't have it on hand, you need to go with something else as it would take too long for an order to get in.. I've never heard of Hetacin K so I don't know where to get it. 
I would use the TOMORROW every day on both sides until you ran out, using an injectable antibiotic to go along with it.. there are types you can get that aren't harmful to the kids she's carrying. The infusions themselves, won't bother them a bit.

I had a doe with a walled off staph infection in her udder break open. She ran 105 fever, quit eating, drinking.. it was horrible. We practically threw, no, we did throw the kitchen sink at her and in the end, she healed and to this day has never had a flair up. That was 5 years ago.

When your done with the last infusion, leave it in there and don't milk it out.. her colostrum will be just fine for the kids. Promise


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

{{{ hugs }}}} and huge thanks to Stacy! I was freaking about the antibiotics in the udder and the kids in 10 weeks but I figured that had to wait.

IM or SQ... everything I'm reading is running about 50/50... IM is label use but lots of "for goats SQ is just as good"... you experienced folks say...?


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

When my goats were drying up the milk looked and tasted the same as it always did. So I don't think that yellow is necessarily normal for drying up.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Pirsue Infusions Rx 50mg Pirlimycin per 10ml. tube
Dariclox Rx 200mg Cloxacillin per 10ml. tube Dry-Clox (dry cow) Rx 500mg Cloxicillin Benzathine
Hetacin-K Rx 62.5mg Ampicillin per 10ml. tube


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Janie, it looks like you're saying what I'm finding online, that those are all vet Rx only?


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Lacia, yes they are all presciption strength meds that you will have to get from your vet. Staph is not easy to kill in animals or humans, so you must treat this doe aggressively, if you want a chance to clear her up. If she's valuable to you, then treat her with whatever it takes to clear her up, even if it means you might not be using her milk this year.
It is very contagious, so make sure you milk her last, so that you don't spread it to others in your herd. If you don't already have it, order out some Lysigin vaccine for your herd, maybe you can gain some control with the Staph.
Good luck!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Very honestly without and excellent vet who is going to give you the meds you want and the virulant way in which Staph A not only ruins udders but gives your herd the precursor to malignant edema, and because if you don't kick it's butt now, you will spread it, I would cull the udder or cull the doe. She would have to be one spectacular udder for me to keep this typhoid mary alive in my herd. Sorry, but there are some mastitis you do not want to deal with and it's worse because you are new.

I would also get lysigin and start vaccinting now, 5cc followed by 5cc in 21 days and then everyone 5cc before they kid. Having this as part of your routine vaccinations you will not catch this, and if some lingers around or you already gave it to someone else you milked after her, or fed her milk to, it will not be such a dramatic case to deal with. 

If you do decide to treat and her udder gets cold (read saanendoah.com for info on malignant edema/gangrenous mastitis, than you will have to move your CD&T vaccinations to covexin 8 which carries the toxoid for this.

Sorry it was such bad news. Penn may have killed this in a petrie dish but it won't go through the goat with enough volume in the blood of the udder to touch this. And likely an infusion on it's own isn't enough either. Following that she is all but dry and it's not likely anything but IV drugs will work in the end. Vicki


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

And you were sure it was a sterile collection wearing gloves, right? S. aureus is most common on peoples' hands...and luckily yours showed suseptibility to antibiotics. I would isolate her, milk her last, gloves, etc. Yes it is all Rx only, but you have lab results to show the vet to get a prescription. Most local places won't carry those drugs, but several online do that your vet can fax the scrip to. Good luck.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

OMG, that's a STUNNINGLY discouraging prognosis... So much for telling me to relax and WAIT, eh? The rate of the changes in her had me alarmed and it sounds like I should have trusted my instincts and taken her up to the expensive vet? But they lost their goat expert recently, so I'm not sure what they would really know about this... I'm stumbling for words... I was so encouraged by getting a full tube of Today into her tonight, and getting her started on inj pennicillin and others encouraging stories.

When you say "virulent" are you validating the labs results that the Sat sample had none, the Monday sample had some, and the Tues sample "too numerous to count" and that it can be that fast and aggressive? So if Sat sample was not showing any, and no previous test had shown any, then you are saying Typhoid Mary cuz she's dry and its impossible to get enough antibiotic into her udder? 

I was feeling much better after treating her this evening and as a mini, I could turn her upside down in my lap and massage her udder so I thought it got in there better than purely having to fight gravity and massage up.

I've had nothing but clean tests, where did this suddenly come from?

Sounds like you're saying I should quarrantine her at a minimum, but she got it spontaneously, not contagiously, so someone else could spontaneously get it too?

I'm REALLY freaked now. I do usually milk her first, but I have thoroughly washed my hands and used clean everything inbetween them since I suspected anything. I will send samples from the other doe every day or what else can I do to keep tabs on her health status?

I'll call the vets first thing in the morning and see what they will give me. I should ask for Lysigin and stronger antibiotics? Give everyone the Lysigin immediately?

You said "someone else you fed her milk to"... the only one that got her milk recently was the dog that gets the strip cup. But are you saying that I will have to pull her kids when she has them? One thing at a time I guess, let's figure out what can be done NOW. I will never relax again when my gut says something is wrong.

I haven't seen any difference in the sides of the udder. Both are almost dried up and that was part of the evidence that said not to worry so much, that at this stage of pregnancy she might just be drying up, right?

But tonight when I was infusing them, I did notice 2 pimples on the side that she was a little more resistant to me treating. They looked exactly like the staph pimples that the rescue dogs often have around here and that I've had to do huge battles with to get them cleaned up on foster dogs. Is this related and just an environmental risk around here? Is her pregnancy making her more susceptible? 

When you say "cull the udder or cull the doe" what do you mean by "cull the udder" as its kind of attached, lol. well attached if I do say so in black humor here.

Cold udder... right after this, I'll go feel the so far healthy one first, use hand sanitizer then feel the sick one and see if there's a difference? It will be noticeable if we're in super deep doodoo?

I gave her 5 ml of the pennicillin, half SQ and half IM since I couldn't get a clear answer. It sounds like IM is riskier but better, I'm fine with checking that I'm not hitting a blood vessel if that's the only issue.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Relax and wait is all you could do, there was no guessing at treatment that any of us could have done, since the symptoms of more virulent type mastitis isn't usually just salty yellow milk or a doe drying up.

There is not reason to feel the lab is in error, this isn't an environmental type staph you could have accidentally gotten into the specimens you sent. Virulent in that if one has it you will be very lucky if most don't. And with does having such heightened immunity during pregnancy, it's likely why she only has these symptoms and isn't physically ill.

I would ask you vet for the list of drugs Janie recommended, and if your vet isn't going to list to a gal off the internet than your forced to find a vet who has treated staph A in cattle. The problem with this is their treatment plans are to get rid of all the offending bacteria at any cost, which costs you the production of the udder. That is not a cure for me, and why I would cull.

Culling the udder is having it removed.

3cc per 50 pounds of any 300,000 until penicillin, you can give the initial dosages of Penn IM to get it into the system quicker but all OTC products are given to goats subq, you simply will run out of muscles that you don't necrose when giving meds IM to them, it's simply cruel actually.

Yes it's noticeable, that the udder is no longer warm, you will see a darkening usually around the top of the teat...you can see photos at saanendoah.com

Lysigin you can order from jefferslivestock.com I would doubt a vet would carry it. Vicki


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

S. aureus is on hands, and in our noses, one reason to milk with gloves on, cause you can never have sterile hands. If she has bumps on her udder like pimples it is most likely aureus also, thus the contagious. I wouldn't even use heat treated colostrum from a doe that had tested + for aureus. Yes, she could have been drying up normally, not just from mastitis.
Here are very good articles about S. aureus (in cows): 
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/an_sci/extension/dairy/newsletters/0403nlet.PDF
http://www.extension.org/faq/25477
http://www.livestocktrail.uiuc.edu/dairynet/paperDisplay.cfm?ContentID=239
http://www.nmconline.org/contmast.htm
My favorite part is: Staph cows should be identified and separated from uninfected cows, then Staph cows should be milked last. _"Once a Staph cow always a Staph cow!" _  Just change that to goat!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

so if its so contagious, where did she spontaneously get it from? 

If she spontaneously got it, so could anyone else!

I'm not being argumentative here, I'm in tears and scared, she is also a pet to my husband and his favorite by far. He just offered to go sleep out there and wake up every two hours and check her after seeing and reading the horrible and overnight acute cases on the Saanendoah site, and saying we'll rush her up the hour and half away to the big vet hospital if we have to. I pay the bills here, so I'm not so sure we'll go that far if its as hopeless as this seems... I was feeling so much better tonight after getting her treatment started and getting a whole tube in her and massaging her udder upside down in my lap, I felt like I worked it in and around much better than a standing up goat possibly could...

So you are saying even if she gets clean cultures after this by some miracle, not to trust them, that she's gotten clean cultures up to now, samples taken 2 days apart suddenly show this from no identifiable source, and now she's going to destroy my whole little herd? This doesn't make logical sense... they could get it from the same source she got it from...


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

why are they milking from staph infected cows period if you wouldn't even feed heat treated... they are putting this into the public milk supply then? What does it potentially do to people?

one of the articles with the "once a staph cow, always..." also says that "Treating cows within the first 30 days of infection may offer an 80-90% cure rate"


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

After dealing with staph (not aureus) for quite a while in one of my does, I made a decision that I would cull for this. My doe did get better but for the time, effort and money I put into getting her better I could have easily bought a healthy doeling, raised her, waited for her to freshen and still been better off financially and time-wise. Now, if this is a well-loved animal or one with great bloodlines, it might be worth a mastectomy and keeping her as a pet or a brood doe. But from now on, for me, I just don't have the finances or the desire to deal with a serious illness. It is too heart-breaking.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

heart breaking is right!
especially the suddenness!

and I just lost another response I typed... why does this happen? I type and hit "post" and it goes and when I refresh the page there is another new response but mine never appears....

I don't think I can say it as well again...and I've got to get back on the phone... I've been on the phone all morning trying to find a goat vet for the Rx stuff. The big farm animal hospital lost their goat vet, their dairy vet is out of town which is the story most places, or they have some one but they are semi-retired and not taking new clients or only see dairies over a certian size... frustrating...

I read until the wee hours, all I could on this, there's a lot of contradictory info! 

What's the hints for getting the infusion in a mini's teat? She was not too happy and it sounds like I'll have to do a lot of it.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

If you clean then teat with a wet-wipe and then use one of those alcohol prep-wipes that come in the package of infusions and scrub the end well, you should be able to see the orifice where the milk comes out of..
just take the TIP of the infusion tip off, not the whole long thing, you should be able to see where it separates. If you can get the teat facing you where you can see the orifice, then you can aim the end of the infusion tip just to inside the teat.. your not trying to shove the whole thing in there.. and then slowly depress the plunger.
I will gently pinch the end closed when I'm done, and massage upwards, but heck, if you can get her upside down in your lap, there you go!!  it does get easier, and right when you think you have it down, you'll squirt half the tube into your hand.. :rofl don't panic, just go with what you can get in there. 
DO NOT share a tube between the two sides.. there is no better way to transmit beasties, than by sharing. :nooo


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Commercial dairies the milk goes to be pasteurized in calibrated equipment, consistent pasteurization that is more difficult to achieve at home. I know of no case where a person got Staph from drinking the milk... and the dairies aren't feeding it to calves, either.

To prevent mastitis:
1- wear gloves 
2- wash every udder & dry thouroghly with disposable towels 
3- consider using a pre-milking dip
4- use a good teat dip, with a no return cup (iodine dips are shown to be the most effective)
5- milk your ff first (most 'virgin' does first), then you older milkers, then your does that are supect, then your does that are clinical. You should always treat this doe like she would test +, as staph walls off, and can reinfect the udder later. 
The problem with the cure rate within 30 days of infection is, how do you know when a do is infected?? Other than a crystal ball, a doe may successfully fight off mastitis with only a raised SCC until a time of stress to her immune system, then it may 'bloom', and you wouldn't know when the udder was first infected. In the studies that show efficacy, then usually INFECT the cows udders on purpose.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

lots of good info, THANKS!

When things settle down just a bit here, I do want to go back thru my SCC and SPC's the past few months and see if I see ANYTHING that might have hinted at this earlier. Not to beat myself up, but to have a better idea if this truly was caught early and might be in that cureable range, or if there's evidence this might have been brewing for awhile and just flared up as you mention might be the case.

I had a very interesting conversation with vet today about pregnancy and the immune response, I might write it up from my notes later. 

From what I remember of the past test data, learned today about pregnancy and immune system, our ridiculous weather 2 & 3 weeks ago and the unusual cold and muck, and her pregnancy stage starting to dry herself off... I think we may have just had a perfect storm cluminating in this. I know staph infections are an opportunistic organism around here, we see it in rescue dogs and other pets with less than strong immune systems.

I should be aware of these circumstances in the future for sure and take extra precautions when even one or two of them start happening. I had such consistent, great, clean test results that I had gotten complacent and taken shortcuts on some miserable days... now we're all paying the price.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep Lacia, it usually does fall right into our laps in the end. Why I don't want a pre-milking and a post routine that I can't always afford, nor always want to do. Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

As far as losing your posts, you probably aren't losing them. The forum has a function (I think you can turn it off) where it gives you notification if there has been a new post between the time you last refreshed the page and the time you hit post. You just have to hit post again if you don't want to change your message, it should still be there below.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

yes, I've gotten that notice and when I hit "post" anyway, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't...

UPDATE: I don't know if she's any better or not. Volume is up a bit, but tonight was the first time there was any clumps or clots that came out. They were smaller than a split pea, but made milking on that side very hard to get started, it was kind of plugged. On the other hand, that side also seems to have a little more volume picking up, so maybe its cleaning out?

If I understand right, the best case scenario was that the Today and IM antibiotics would knock out the infection and I'd know in part cuz her milk would come back up a bit. That hasn't happened dramatically. Since it wasn't dramatic mlk coming back up, probably cuz she's due to kid in 9-10 weeks and seems to be getting bigger by the hour and I wonder how many kids she has in there! She's eating VERY well and in generally good condition. Definitely one of those pregnant glow goats, she's noticeably happy and sweet and affectionate to us.

But since I wasn't getting noticeable milk back before I'd dry her off in a week or two anyway, I had to get creative to see if maybe she was a *little* better. So I milk out each side into separate containers then re-infuse the udders with Today. Then this is sort of gross but the best way I could measure to see if small progress was happening. I use the Today tube that I just infused, and suction back into the stuff I milked out. I figure that the excess volume that I get beyond what fills the tube is milk she's generating. Its not much. But it has increased from barely any more than the empty volume of the tube to about double the volume. Minimal improvement, but improvement, and maybe minimal cuz at this stage of gestation the milk's just not going to come back, staph or not... but then what does the clotty-ish stuff mean?

I did finally find a vet who knew something and he put her on Naxcel which seems painless to her, that's nicer. He also gave us a scrip for all the lab recommended infusions (Pirsue, Dairy Clox, and Hect-K or something like that, I don't have the spelling in front of me at the moment, but I haven't been able to find them locally and so have to order them online.

The lab said to send in another sample tomorrow, but I don't quite understand that with the infused Today in there what will grow from the sample. I guess if something did grow it would be super bad news that I'm dealing with a resistant staph... maybe that's useful.

I'm super paranoid and diligent about my older doe now. I changed to a white strip cup so I can see if there's the slightest yellowing of the milk. "Aureus" is botanical latin for "gold/yellow" so the discoloration is a good indicator of staph A. So far she seems fine, still milking her small but level amount into 15 months now. If I get lazy and milk 1x/day for more than a few days her milk goes down 1/3. If I start milking 2x/day again, it comes right back to previous levels with about 3 days and this has been consistent since July-ish. I will be very diligent about 2x/day for awhile as its the only milk it looks like I have until the one with the staph freshens in March, and that's TBD if she still will have a problem or will have drinkable milk then.

Thanks for all the PM's of encouragement! It meant so much on some discouraging days. I'll try to reply individually, I'm just beyond swamped right now...


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

are you using warm compresses and massaging before each time you milk ? Also are you giving her massive doses of Vit C? it really helps with mastitis. too.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

yes to warm massages, but what are your best techniques, maybe I could be doing it better? 

no on the Vit c, I thought they made their own vit c? I am giving her big doses of ProBios, and herbal liver detox and immune boosters, extra vit e and horse vits with organic selenium. Which type of vit c is best? I have human orange flavor chewables on hand lol.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

LLB101 said:


> Which type of vit c is best? I have human orange flavor chewables on hand lol.


Yes, human orange flavored vit-C.. my girls LOVE them!! at 500mg per tab, you could easily give her 4 twice a day.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

ok, I'll add the Vit C.

A bit of good news! I was worried what the clots meant and mentioned it to the lab when asking about the resampling. Here's the reply I got, finally a bit of good news!

"The clots are from cleaning out. This is typical with mastitis. I wanted a retest after the initial treatment, but we started a little later on treatment and thought she was still milking a significant amount. With the drying off and little milk a lot of mastitis is treated with the long dry period, because the dry antibiotics are stronger and last longer in the system. Without worry of being put into the milk tank, you can treat with a stronger dose at dryoff."

Zippity doo dah! Finally some verifiable encouragement! 

So now what? How long do I keep doing the 2x/day Today infusions? Read message #31 above, paragraphs 2 & 3 for the current situation with how little milk she might be making and that its barely increasing at 9-10 weeks before her due date. I'm very afraid it will fester in there if I quit cleaning it out 2x/day, but the lab says the little clots are progress, so how/when do I know I'm thru with the 2x/day?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

With her in reality already dry with the poor volume why not infuse her, and let her be. If she becomes full, which is unlikely, than easy out a little milk to make her less hard (at no time should she ever strut the udder or leak) You really only use the infusions for 6 milkings, beyond that the drug isn't working. Suprised you aren't using banamine which helps the inflammation in the milk ducts not form scar tissue. You can add gentamycin etc, to the infusion for her last infusion as a dry cow. Make sure and do finish the naxcel which would have been perfect if you would have given pennicillin with it, most drugs work better in combination when dealing with mastitis in goats. Vicki


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

I would also suggest that you switch your infusions to TOMORROW instead of the Today ones.. as your vet stated "because the dry antibiotics are stronger and last longer in the system"
JMHO


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> ...only use the infusions for 6 milkings, beyond that the drug isn't working. Suprised you aren't using banamine...can add gentamycin etc, ...for her last infusion as a dry cow. Make sure and do finish the naxcel which would have been perfect if you would have given pennicillin with it, most drugs work better in combination...


Oh boy, lots of new stuff there... that's good, and I know you've been busy in your own life...

"Banamine", I don't see any mention of this before this, the vet or no one else has mentioned it either. I don't have any handy, calling locally now to see if I can get it. If it has anti-inflammatory action, it will still help? How much/long to use?

"Gent" was mentioned by you early on, but I didn't have enough info to know what/how to do with it. How much do I add with the dry up infusion?

"Infusions only 6 milkings"... hmmm... any harm in trying longer? Its only a few dollars... Do you agree with the lab that passing small clots at this stage of treatment when there weren't any before, and combined with an increase in output is a good cleaning out sign?

THANKS!!!

Vet says penn is useless, hasn't worked for staph in decades... how can I know? Everyone's probably right in some circumstances on this... I read lots of places not to use LA-200 and penn together, others swear that's what works! I can certainly still add the penn, there was a day of overlap already. Any good links on this? I couldn't find any quickly this morning and have to get to work soon.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

That's the problem, your going to get my advice, your vets advice and others advice, with no real way to discern yet whose advice to take, and you certainly can't mix all the advice together or you will be giving LA200 (which I wouldn't be using) with penn, which makes it not work. I would very much doubt your vet has ever cured a case of staph aureous or any other mastitis and had a good outcome (a doe who had a normal production out of each side without lumps or scar tissue). Giving pennicillin (any 200,000 unit pen 3cc per 50 pounds subq (when ill like she is twice a day to get and keep bloodlevels up, once a day when using it because you have helped deliever kids, or she has wound and you want to make sure it doesn't get infected) along with a gram negative/gram positive antibiotic like Naxcel, increases the odds the antibiotic will get and stay in the blood stream longer, it actually gives you much longer withdrawal periods of all antibiotics that are vet scripts. Gentamyacin is not only an excellent antibiotic for pnemonia, but also in conjunction with penn injected for mastitis, and also put into infusions (100mg gent. 2cc injected into the infusion and infused into the udder, in fact you can't find a better dry cow to use in problem does)

I was pretty certain that Janie had mentioned Banamine (1cc IM per 100 pounds for 6 days) you can half this and give it right before milking her out each time to allivate stress, it has a calming effect on the doe and can also stop the spastic effect of diarrhea in infants) it is an antiinflammatory, that helps with scarring from mastitis and pneumonia, and dexemthazone is a powerful steroid, both are vet scripts. I use both with mastitis. But I also pull out the big guns for disease because unless it's a brood doe who is only here for babies to come out of her, if you get mastitis and I can't get your udder back to 100% your really pretty much dog food, especially with mastitis that is catchy like this one. Vicki


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## tmfinley (Feb 21, 2008)

Banamine is just a good drug to have on hand period. It can be useful in many different situations. 

Tiffany


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks Vicki. 

A number of places I've also read that LA-200 can cause bone abnormalities in kids and abortions. But some folks have suggested using it and I think I've mentioned many times that a big part of the problem in this case is her drying herself off 2-3 weeks before I was going to anyway cuz she's due to kid in March and showing big already. So it is super hard to sort out if the person giving the advice really took all the details into consideration, and I have run each advice past all the details in my list and try to sort out the contradictions.

From the SCC and testing I've been doing regularly, it does appear that this came up very suddenly in the perfect storm of my weather shortcuts, and my going to 1x/day milking, and her drying herself off and pregnancy vulnerable immune system etc. So I am hopeful and trying to do all I can sort out that is right to do.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

It is my understanding that immune function is heightened in gestation.
Lacia~You are thinking about this too much. Something is wrong if you can't have a couple of back yard milkers with out this much scientific analysis and lab tests and vet conferences and spread sheets and data collections. What happened to hardy healthy easy care milk goats? I think you have TOO much info and are mixing it all up to something much more complex than it needs to be. Shouldn't be much sorting to do. You have a diagnosis. 
Lee


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

LOL, Lee makes some good points.

Certainly I don't want to see goats go the way of dairy cows and many dogs... hardy & healthy are still assets of goats and it would be good to continue to breed for that. Certainly the mixed breed "dairy" goat we had on the childhood farm didn't get any attention close to this level, and it was very Darwinian as far as how goats were valued as easy keepers and good producers. 

For my doe's situation this time, there is ample evidence of a perfect storm of events, but if she has another problem or I can't cure this, I probably do need to take a look at removing her from the gene pool and breeding for hardier and less susceptible. 

"you have a diagnosis" -- so what? if you get a diagnosis of heart disease it means nothing, you need to know what kind and how to treat it. When I get opinions from respected, experienced dairy folks and vets etc that range from "80% curable" to "kill Typhoid Mary" I'd be a fool to act on either of those without more investigation! Either they focused on different parts of the situation, they have different personal experience and/or local situations that influence their views, or some combination of many things. But I'm not going to rush to any of those opinions, I'm going to try to do the right thing that I would do for any life I was steward of, to treat with the best knowledge I had so far and to learn and understand the best I could do in that specific situation. Anytime there is this much dissent over treatment, there is something right and wrong with each approach.

One of the things most hurting our society currently is the rush to judgement and band-aid solutions, instead of solving real problems at the root. I am they type of person that almost always does well at things, I take things apart and figure out what makes them work, and I generally am respected and soon sought out for my knowledge and thorough understanding of anything I take on to learn about. Someday I may have answers from this about why the huge disparity of opinion on treatment of this diagnosis.

I love what we can learn from numbers and data, including what we can't know or predict, and taking that apart and figuring out what is different from one situation to the next. Would I rather be doing that with symbiotic tree root organisms than my precious FF who is pregnant again? Of course! Have experienced goat folks said they've learned at lot from some of the data I've kept already? Absolutely! Have I been out and busy cuz I was invited to teach every night this week cuz I put old and new information together in ways that enlighten and folks find useful? Yep. 

So I will keep data and Q&A's until patterns start to emerge and understanding is increased. Others will learn in the process too.

One of the few things that the science and vets etc agree on here is that immune function is low during pregnancy. Lots of other physiological aspects are on high during pregnancy but not the immune system. It has to dampen down to tolerate the "foreign body" of the fetus. Why do you think pregnant women are on the "high risk" first priority list for H1N1 vaccine, and advised to avoid so many kinds of foods and social contact that are risky for illness causing organisms? Pregnancy is a higher risk time for immune system functions, that is well understood, as is the fact that other physiology is in high overdrive in pregnancy.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

One of the few things that the science and vets etc agree on here is that immune function is low during pregnancy
...................

This is simply not true in goats. Unlike humans goats do not partake any of their immunity to the kids. The kids are born completely sterile from their completely sterile environment, why you will constantly hear me talk (read me write  about quality colostrum making sure those kids get enough and if you let kids nurse, save some colostrum from older does and tube a few cc's into them at birth. We on the other hand impart immunity to our kids in utero. So yes in alot of mammals including us, we are more susceptible as moms, as well as the fetus to outside influence...simply not so in goats. There is very little our goats share with single stomached animals, and being the highest metabolisms of all ruminants, they also carry much more in common if there was such a thing as a deer bred for milk, than their very sluggish cousins sheep. You have to take the info you have learned (mine was horses) and wash most of it out of your brain, because it doesn't contain to our goats. And neither does alot of the google info on goats  Because it's just written and written and parroted by other forums and websites until folks think it's true we could give you lists of just plain bunk that is gospel. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> This is simply not true in goats. ... alot of the google info on goats  Because it's just written and written and parroted by other forums and websites until folks think it's true we could give you lists of just plain bunk that is gospel.


LOL at the last part, sounds like the ridiculous [email protected] (can I say that here?) that passes for horticulture info online... unbelievable the stuff that becomes "true" by repetition.

Every vet I've talked to says the pregnancy immune low thing... maybe they suffer from the same illness of monotony over thought... do you have a good link or 10 to share on this? I'm willing to think it thru...


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

""I love what we can learn from numbers and data, including what we can't know or predict, and taking that apart and figuring out what is different from one situation to the next.""

Meaningless without hands on experience over time and your own notes -it would serve the goats better if their owners would get out of the lab and get into the barnyard. Science only serves so far in the real world of caring for animals.
What's wrong with our society is not failure at solving problems at the root-it is depending people who have no experience with reality for information because they read it in a book in school or took it apart in a lab or did a spread sheet so that means they know what they are talking about. You can bend data to say whatever you want your end result to be. 

You did regular SSC on a home milker and still determined she had mastitis WITH YOUR OWN SENSES! 

No vets agree on anything because they all have different experiences and everyone takes their learned information and lays it over a base of experiences and personal predilection to solution methods. Science is great- record keeping is great but nothing helps a goat caretaker more than daily interaction and observation and this proved to be true in your case as well. You still have to filter all the info with your own [email protected] detector which can only be honed over time spent with the animals in not always perfect conditions- ie perfect health.

You will be better off if you stop blaming yourself because you expect to do good at everything and trying to construct reasons why it could have happened that don't involve the fact that things like this happen with no way to predict. We all have horrible things happen in the husbandry of livestock despite what we all believe to be our best care.

And my point about you having a diagnosis was at least you knew EXACTLY SCIENTIFICALLY what you were fighting.
Try to handle the dread mystery failing with no way to tell what is wrong and then see what kind of sorting goes on.

Did the sounds from the udder stop? That was the scariest thing you said on all of this. Gases from decaying tissue. 
Hope it was air you put up there yourself. 

One thing you have to consider when sorting all this info is the different perspectives people come from in dairy goat ownership. People who sell milk for a living and healthy milking animals for income are forced to look at the big picture as the driving factor. You cannot milk every day twice a day an entirely healthy herd and toss in one with a contagious udder problem just because you have her for the rest of her milking life. 
So the info the more seasoned people are giving you is not focused on the viability of one animal but of the entire herd and their livelihood. 

Lee

Ps= myth made real...many examples abound but a very obvious one is that in the US people still believe Christopher Columbus discovered America. 
He did not even know where he was much less being the first person to get there!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Very true about the hands on experience, I'm constantly ranting about that, especially in the Permaculture and horticulture worlds... Its such a given for me that I didn't even mention it explicitly, lol.

My most valuable data is observations from hands on experience. Sharing that can be very valuable too, IF we know the context and don't overgeneralize it. For example, when I milk I record the time and amount for each doe. I can do this cuz I only have 2 milking right now, probably not feasible for large operations, everyone has their own threshold.

Data is a hobby for me, no different than playing music for someone else. I can compose nonsense or meaning in spreadsheets and I know the difference and value constructive questioning. A little knowledge of data and statistics can be a very dangerous thing when folks take it too seriously without considering the relevant context and the problems of "garbage in garbage out" and are you measuring the meaningful things?

On the other hand, I left my PhD program for a lot of reasons, including how far they push data removed from reality and how data manipulation takes on a life of its own and loses all practical meaning. Somewhere in there is a very useful balance. I think someone like John Gottman has found that balance in his data and research on specific behavior ratios and relationship success. My husband got his PhD in mathematics with one of Gottman's mathematicians, but got none of the practicality, lol. I try to stay aware and grounded in it and have such a good daily reminder here about going too far, lol. Its also good to get your feedback here that I'm off the deep end compared to some of your perspectives, lol. From my point of view, I'm in the happy middle between these extremes, lol.

Its a hobby to make it work for me now, and make sure its meaningful, much of which I will only know in hindsight at first until patterns emerge. I've always done this with what ever I'm learning, and folks wonder how I get so knowledgeable so fast, its cuz I pay attention and look for patterns. Now its dairy goats. I do record all kinds of observations, and I have to remember when I get frustrated that other folks don't have quantitiative answers to my questions that other folks have other hobbies, lol. I've learned a lot of interesting things from my noted observations, some of which map to common sense experience that most folks express in vague qualitative terms, and some don't.

I put observations including milking data into a spreadsheet, it takes less than 15 seconds while the milk is filtering to walk over to the computer and enter it. Yes, I'm FAST at it, yes, I've timed it, LOL, and have tools on my computer that give me data about how/where I really spend my time. That has given me great insight into my time and life satisfaction and I quit worrrying about clean floors, lol. Tease me all you want, LOL.

Anyway, my spreadsheet calculates hours between milkings and milk per hour among other things. Of what use is this? Maybe none for some folks, for me, its one of the ways I learn and improve my performance. I can tell you exactly how long a quantity of hay lasts to feed a total of x number of pounds and heads of goats. Yes, I weigh the kids every week, its interesting to me...

I'm an inconsistent milker at times due to Life, sometimes if I'm gone all day, teach at night, get home very late and have to leave very early the next morning, the hours can be short, or vice versa happens and sometimes its long. By doing this, I've discovered that one of my does, FOR THIS MILKING/kidding, is very sensitive to milking time and one is not.

I emphasized "for this milking" cuz of the caution on overgeneralizing. Is this difference due to individual genetics or because one is a FF, the other a 2nd? Is this due to the fact that they prefer to eat distinctly differently foods? Probably not, but its an interesting question that might have to do with their metabolism. If I have the mental and temporal bandwidth next kidding, I might try to track their feeding separately. I have fed them separately enough to know that one prefers to eat more alfalfa pellets than the other, and does NOT like BOSS, go figure... and her milk is lower butterfat, which will get a collective "duh" from many of you.

She has never given any signs of copper deficiency like the black turning brown and fishtail alerts I get from the other doe. She also had a harder time keeping weight on when the kids were still on her and is the one more sensitive to hours between milkings. She generally just does not like change of any kind, vs the other doe is more easy going. We'll see what I make time for and am able to notice and record when I have 5 milkers this year and enough milk to start really getting into cheese or soap, lol. For now, it looks like I have one kidding every 6-8 weeks and the way my current milk charts overlap mean I should have a pretty consistent supply and not to much overwhelm. We'll see, lol.

For now, most of this is just observations...its only beginning to show patterns and meaning into my second year of data. Like its helped me know so far that I can push my schedule 3 days with the one doe and her milk production will start being affected. Once I get back on schedule however, she obliges with more milk. And she is like clockwork, all year long 15 months now, right on schedule, her milk will drop 25-30% for the 2-3 days she's on heat schedule, even if there are no outward signs during summer I forget this and enter the milk data and my macro alerts me to the drop and I say 'uh oh' and then look at the heats spreadsheet and am reminded why. The other doe has no predictable difference in milk during her heats.

When other new-ish city goat milking folks have asked me why sometimes their milk is down for a couple of days, and I ask them when this happens, they have only qualitative answers, "at times", and they don't know how it tracks with heat cycle or anything else cuz they don't write it down it a form they can use. I get very frustrated with that, and the descriptions of does that say generalities like "long level lacations" and if I start emailing with them and getting actual numbers, one person's "long and level" is half what another's is! Inquiring minds want to know real stuff! <smile>

Speaking of frustrating, my other milker's production, the one this thread is about, her daily or hourly rate between milkings, varies, but not by anything I've been able to identify yet. Its only very loosely related to my milking schedule. By which I mean, the above doe's peak of hourly milk production between milkings, is right at 9-10 hours. When I've milked only 6-7 hrs apart, there's actually been less milk per hour than at that 9-10 hour mark. There's a noticeable drop between 10-11hrs, and another at over 14 hrs, then its relatively stable 14-24 hrs. Another collective "duh" from you experienced folks right? This mostly fits with the common dairy wisdom I read and hear, its just more specific. I find it useful for planning and it would be easy to spot any abnormality with this doe's pattern in the way I chart this data.

But this doe, the FF that this thread started, her milking has always been less predictable, the hourly rate between milkings will be the similar at 9 hrs as at 15 hours sometimes, other times not, so there was less of a red flag when her milk starting taking a dip the first few days. I was sick starting Dec 5 and milking went from consistent 2x/day to ranging from 11-25 hrs between milkings over the next 10 days between my being sick and our weather being very unusually cold and high temps not above freezing for days.... My data clearly showed me her total milk dropping around 30% but the hourly rate was still all over the map, typical for her, in my sick fog and coping with frozen gates and water in the Big Freeze, I wa focused on other things. Besides, when we had all time 100+ years record breaking heat this summer, she was the one whose milk took a big dip in the heat, not the Ms Predictable doe. So ok, maybe this doe is more weather/environment sensitive and the other one is time sensitive?

Then I left for a 4 day trip out of state to that AI seminar I went to, and let my substitute milker come only once per day. I was gone for an extra day due to car trouble on the way home, and was SHOCKED at the data when I got home, milk down >50% for going on a week by then... I got right back to milking 2x/day and asking questions and cuz she was 7-8 weeks pregnant, and the weather and inconsistent milking, everyone said "no worries" but over the next week The Big Dip became The Big Dry-Off in progress and everyone attributed it to the 8 weeks pregnancy stage. One of these years, I will have the data to say that her genetic line and daughters dry themselves off starting at 8 weeks pregnancy or not. This year I had no way of knowing...

I also know now that when my does take a Big Dip, perhaps to start drying themselves off, I would benefit from incease the rate of testing, that its a vulnerable time, especially if there are weather and my health and other variables. Testing to make sure the milking data is off due to Life, and not microbes, is easy and cheap compared to the past 2 weeks!!!

Ok, seriously time to get back to work here...


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> I left my PhD program


Lucky for you! I don't think PhD's are allowed to have dairy goats. :nooo
L


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

ROFL... I bet you're right!!! Marrying someone who had dairy goat intentions was my husband's only hope then, lol.

I talked with the vet more today and results so far are encouraging. It seems like we might have truly caught this in the earliest stages with the routine testing schedule I was on and the records I keep.

Udder remains warm, the few pimples are gone, udder is still silky smooth and soft, her temp is 102-ish, she's eating like there's no tomorrow (normal, she's NOT the fussy eater here, lol) and she's decided the peanut butter makes even ProBios powder edible. I did have to bring out the goat A-bomb of Persuasion and first offer it to her competition in front of her, LOL... there's NOTHING like another goat interested in something to make it irresistible! Instant gobble and then decide its pretty good after all... why didn't I remember this sooner?

Big training issue I need to work on, is letting me look at her gums easier, but they are clearly a healthy pink.

The left udder side went thru a couple of days with a little soft clotting, kind of like the thicker fat bits on top of Brown Cow yogurt after you stir it in, and the lab said my description of it sounded like cleaning out and winning the battle to them. After a couple of days of that, now I am getting only clear oily infuse out when I milk it out. About double the volume of the infuse that I put in, which the vet says is normal non-milk udder secretions. 

The right udder side seems to be repeating the same process about a day and a half behind. The bits coming out on that side are a little more like the debris that is in whey, which this vet and lab both seem to think is also a good sign. The debris is fading now, and there seems like a bit of milk still in that side, when I milk out the infuse its creamy, not clear oily like the left side, and more like 3-4 times the volume of the infuse. Not much if its milk, but hopefully enough to test post-infuse.

Its curious to me that the particulate matter coming out is not the same on both sides, but both the lab and the vet seem to think its all good. They told me to look for anything pus-stringy, there's nothing like that, no discoloration towards orange or brown from any blood, just the yellow of the infuse. I'd sure feel better if I could get WHITE milk back, maybe I will get a little on the right side but doubtful on the left. 

Treatment plan for now is to finish the 10 days of Naxcel, get 2 days of clear, no-debris infuse and milk out, then try to keep milking and see if I'm even getting a trickle to test. If I can keep a trickle going for 3, 5, or 7 days post milking out the last infuse, then send in those samples to see if they can grow any staph from it. If nothing grows, then infuse the Pirsue and finish drying her off on the one side I might still be getting a trickle from. If something does still grow, we'll do some sensitivity test it sounds like.

I did tell them I'd added the Pen-G/procaine combo a couple days ago, and they said it was a waste and just giving my goat pain uselessly, but that it probably wasn't doing any harm except maybe stressing her and her liver a bit more. Clearly it is uncomfortable for her, I give it slowly SQ in 2 places and after 2cc's you can see its bothering her. She's also running out of easy loose SQ skin, even behind her shoulders is getting tighter, she's expanding and looks like she's 3 weeks from kidding, not 9! She's already starting to hesitate to jump on the milkstand like she did the last month befor FF, and today even used my seat as a step. Since she had triplets as FF, I'm really wondering how many she's got in there this time... 

I tried listening for heartbeats like I did last spring. But then was 2-3 weeks before she kidded in May and I could hear at least 2 besides hers, turned out there was 3. I think it gets pretty hard to tell how many past 2? Then she was also shedding out, Now she's such a thick fuzzy fur ball that unless I shave a spot the stethescope can't hear all that clearly it seems, or its just too early to be strongly heard yet at 9 weeks out? I can hear hers ok, and rumen noises, and maybe faintly others but its not so clear.


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Gums won't tell you much on a goat. They actually change color with temperature--cold drink, paler gums. Some goats even have black gums and tongues. While this works for dogs, in goats you check eyelids (search for famacha) to see if there's anemia.

My vet has a tough time seeing more than 2 on an ultrasound, too.  Pretty awesome that you can hear it!


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

right, thanks for the reminder. I was hoping I could look at gums, if pink, all is well, if pale, then need to look at eyelids...? That was my thinking. Probably I should just go for the training issues and get their cooperation with both, lol. Funny, as socialized and cuddly as they are, there are a couple of things they just do not like. Do yours just stand there and let you look at their eyelids or do you have to have someone hold their head?


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I do it while they're on the milkstand, head in the headgate, and still have to use both hands.  They're not crazy about it, but don't fight bad. Much better than my previous goats about it, but they're better behaved all around. I'm sure training and temperment both play a role.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

My most valuable data is observations from hands on experience......

And when you know something from years of gardening (horticulture) and someone asks for 10 references for something you know from experience it is.....annoying? offensive? irritating? condesending? Especially when the 10 references would have to include those you learned it from and those you taught it to 

There is very little true goat science, especially done on dairygoats. We have to be very careful when we take other ruminants info and tweak it for goats. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> My most valuable data is observations from hands on experience..And when you know something from years of gardening (horticulture) and someone asks for 10 references for something you know from experience it is.....annoying? offensive? irritating? condesending? Especially when the 10 references would have to include those you learned it from and those you taught it to ...There is very little true goat science, especially done on dairygoats. We have to be very careful when we take other ruminants info ...


Yep, its annoying, and more exhausting than offensive or condesending when I get asked for similar references cuz most of what we "know" comes from the process of putting together bits from many sources with decades of our own experiences. Depending on the topic, I can sometimes offer a "this is source is generally resonable" like you did with Sue Reith's articles. Other times I cannot, and I try to write something and just get frustrated and impatient.

That said, I really do want to find SOME science on this stuff, even if its discontiguous and I have to see where the pieces come from. Please, accept my apologizes if it felt offensive, I only want to learn to more.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Lacia get a copy of Goat Medicine with the new one out the older one should be dropping in price on internet sites, half.com amazon etc. Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

good idea... the one I'm finding is 1994 version, you think that's good enough? How much of an update is the new one?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The update is current for this year. The original is excellent. I wish there was so much research done on goats that a new updated one would contain tons of new info.... Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

:yeahthat Me too!

Did you happen to notice the treatment and testing plan post a few days ago? We've finished the Naxcel and another week of concurrent penicillin that the vet laughed at but said probably wasn't doing harm. Lab says sample milk at 3, 5, & 7 days post all treatment to retest, then infuse and leave Pirsue if clean, come up with other alternatives if not. Vet agrees.

I did switch to Tomorrow cuz I was running out of Today and I had bought them both already. Vet said Tomorrow is stronger and I might get some crud out if I milked it out and sure enough, 3 milk outs and reinfuse now with Tomorrow and am again getting some cruddy small clumpy stuff. Lab and vet both seem to think this is good and to continue until its all smooth. Makes me nervous that the Today left some that the Tomorrow is getting if I understand them. So what does the Tomorrow now leave and why can't I just use the strongest and get it all at once? Everytime I infuse is another small risk. Yes, I'm cleaning with alcohol first.

Yes I heard that there's diminished benefit from over 6 treatments and we're well past that. Lab & vet say that's more a function of economic reality and what most folks are willing to do, and that continuing has benefit if I'm willing to do it, which I am.

I'm encouraged that I got all my previous test results organized and I'd forgotten I'd been doing the whole raw milk battery of tests which includes a specific test for Staph aureus in addition to the mastitus and SPC tests. Yes, its been expensive. But now I'm glad cuz the samples I sent thru 11/30 that got the special Staph aureus testing were all still clean and completely negative. Every bit of quite a lot of evidence says this was caught VERY early, so I want to do all I can since the probabilities are decently in our favor.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: yellow salty milk, urgent!...pics*

I used "Attach" to put in a pic, plz advise if there's a better way....

pic is of what comes out of udder after 2 days of Tomorrow being left in undisturbed.

The right side has a white "bird poop" like bit that came out, thickish and consistent in color and texture, no lumps.

The left side has the roundish jello-ish like bits that are translucent, like just thicker globs of the yellow Tomorrow infuse.

My previous post and a couple of posts up has the treatment plan were on and where we are at this point.

So any experience out there about why the sides are different and if either is encouraging or needs more vet attention?

[attachment deleted by admin]


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: yellow salty milk, urgent! Update&Freshening*

Time to ressurect this thread, I asked and it was agreed its better to have the history and not repeat it all in a new thread...

Doe is now due to kid in 24 days if she kids on day 148 like last time, that was FF, had triplets. I suspect a day or two earlier as big as she is and as 2nd Freshener, anyone think that's right? More importantly, I have questions re the last infusion vs colostrum etc.

In consultation with the lab guy & vet, I continued treatment of her during the dry period. Once per week, I'd milk out the Tomorrow, check for crud, re-infuse. Right side got totally clear of any crud for weeks, Left side had only the tiniest, few flakes, like whey debris sort of, in the last 2 treatments. That's what was in the right side at the very end before it became totally clear too. Lab guy says this is great, and that the stats on using infusions are based on economic realities for production cows and continued treatment like this is very effective, but not realistic for non-pets. Yes, mine are Productive Pets :biggrin :crazy :biggrin

Yday she very suddenly started bagging up. The countdown clock is ticking!

I'm hung up on the infusion vs colostrum, probably you can easily set me straight. I want to milk out any remaining infusion before the important colostrum fills, I just don't like the idea of the antibiotic infusion still being in there when the kids take their first colostrum. It doesn't make sense to me that there are not residues. If she kids on day 148 again, it will be exactly 31 days since last infusion of Tomorrow.

Yes, I got Rx for Pirsue and was supposed to do that for the last infusion at 30 days but I was hoping for totally clear milk out of infuse on the left side like I got on the right, before I put in Pirsue and stopped treatment totally. Lab guy thinks I'm clear with the last pics, few flakes, but I was hoping for completely clear. :smile Somehow, I lost count, lost a week, big oops! And now we're at day 24 to due date.

Then maybe I shouldn't even let the kids have any colostrum until I know she's Staph aureus free? In a perfect world :rofl I'd like to milk out this early stuff with the last of the infuse, wait a few days to a week, milk just enough to send to lab to get tested. Repeat test at day 144 so I have results before kids and KNOW if its clean or not.

I don't want to milk her out too much obviously, either to stimulate Oxytocin or mess with the uddering up process or open the teat early blah blah... but I also want to do a little more diligent intervention that is the norm for purely production animals, and I have less choices for colostrum than most of you would.

There is one person with an older doe kidding in 10 days, that says I can have some, but that doe has had quads consistently, is wider than tall now, and likely won't have much extra, I don't have much say on when/how its collected or handled etc. So even if I get some, I think it would be good to get some fresh from mom in that magic 12 hours too, if it can be done Staph and infuse-residue free.

Thoughts? Experience? Ideas?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

For me personally I would go get the colostrum from your friend and heat treat it to give to the babies. then make sure your doe doesn't have mastitis once she freshens. Her babies would be on a bottle and not on this dam this year.
I would just wait until she freshens, not messing with her teats anymore and then save and freeze her colostrum and send in a milk sample and go from there. Milking her now seems to me opening those teats now for possibility of more germs.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks Sondra. I'll certainly think about this option. Getting the colostrum is a big unknown as I described, so I should have plans A, B, C...

I generally think the dam does a much better job than I can, and with much less work and stress on all of us, *IF* I can make sure her milk is healthy. If I can't, then I might be forced to bottle raise, but I'm looking for how to test for health and safety first if I can.

Heat treating does bring up another point tho' - would that kill any Staph for sure too? Seems like if it would, it would have come up before?

Did you generally dam or bottle raise?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Don't think you can be sure of killing staph with heat treating.. 
or pasturization. And I say heat treating the colostrum from another farm because you don't know what is what and better to be safe than sorry.
I bottle raise everything now. But would not use milk or colostrum from a doe that I suspected or knew had staph. 
I know Vicki has always said don't use milk from a doe with mastitis for the kids /give it to the pigs, cats, dogs.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Also that being said because I butcher bucks at 8 to 10 weeks I would probably leave them on the dam.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

My doe had mastitis in 2008 was dry treated and when she kidded in 2009, I gave her kid heat treated colostrum from a friends older doe. I was worried about the colostrum being devoid of the good things as well as scared of passing on the staph.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

yes, exactly, that's why I'm concerned, but want to go for what I safely can, and am looking for science, this stuff is measurable, the question is the sequence in her uddering up thru kidding.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Uhmmm, staph is just one of the many things we pasteurize milk to keep people from getting. Now colostrum is trickier to get right, but just heating your milk to higher than normal, say 180, would make you feel better, and kill it. Staph isn't some super bug that lives through high temps. If you have another option, go for it, but if not, then use her milk.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: yellow salty milk, urgent! *Kidding update*

She's at day 147 today, kidded between 147&148 last yr as FF with triplets. Still has ligaments, but has gotten increasingly affectionate the past few days. She always is, but usually its a nuzzle and a half a lick, now its alternating 4 nuzzles and 6 licks and trying to crawl in our laps. Which all seemed like good signs, but...

Last year she was uddered up for a month before, and dripping by kidding day, day 147ish, vs nothing on the same day this year. The past 2 days, it looked like she was finally uddering up this time, so I tried to get a sample to send to the testing lab, pre-kidding. No dice. Nothing at all coming out of one side, the other side had a little of the oily yellow infuse come out. It was completely clear, no gobs or flakes, nothing.

Disappointing, worrisome? Vicki's mention that Inca might have a cloudburst instead of real pregnancy got me worrying about all kinds of crazy things... I thought I felt movement holding my hand on her right belly flank, but last year I could hear the kids' heartbeats, this year I couldn't. At first I wrote it off to "too early" and then "too thick winter cashmere still" but...

Or does she have no milk cuz she's days away still, regardless of her kidding on day 147 as FF? This infection didn't seem severe enough to cause NO milk, but... ?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Inca 'kidded' with tons of fluid this morning and no milk, no kids, nothing but fluid. So yes she had a cloudburst, early kids absorbed? Hormones? No way to know. vicki


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## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)




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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Oh gosh Vicki, I'm so sorry to hear that! You must be so disappointed, she is such a fabulous doe.

What was your feeding your suspicions about that when you mentioned it the other day? What are the signs?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

A way to pregnant looking doe with no udder  No really, they have this real fluid looking belly to them, but there is really no reason for a healthy doe with a healthy lactation last year to have no milk. And with no kids to grow she is FAT! Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

that's what has me worried here, very pregnant looking, no milk yet, day 148... last year I could hear heartbeats, this year I can't... she does have swollen & pinkish vulva and the whole area kind of pushes out somewhat sometimes, not like a prolapse, nothing comes out, the whole fleshy perineum area pushes out like Mt Saint Helens dome before it erupts again. It will be that way when she gets up from lying down sometimes, or when she's reaching and streching way upwards, like when she's trying to get a tree branch.

she is spending a lot more time resting, than normal.

I put a pic of her in that thread about guessing how many kids... I think Eliya started it?


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: yellow salty milk, urgent! Update, oily gunk vs colostrum*

update... her ligaments are now soft and she's making the low mmmm lovey noises, but she's still pigging out eating so I don't think she's in any rush.

Her udder looked bigger and filling, so I tried milking a bit to see what she had in there, yday there was nothing. I'm still worried about the last infuse vs the kids, and wanting to get a sample to the lab asap. Sure enough, its bright yellow oily! One side has milk in it that separates from the oil stuff into round lighter colored spheres? I'm assuming its milk?

I'm not happy here with this! It can't possibly be good for kids to get this oily infuse residue in them?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Most infusions are nothing but soybean oil bases, it won't hurt your kids. Colostrum on it's own is valued for it's laxative effect, so how could oil hurt the infants? It can't. Course if you keep testing what is in the udder there won't BE any colostrum for the kids anyway  Vicki


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

ok ok... :biggrin
with the permeable gut the first hours of life, it just seems like all this artificial stuff shouldn't be getting in there...
so you think all the antibiotic is gone from the oily stuff, or it won't hurt the kids either?


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