# Awesome buck needs a new home quick



## LittleFarm (Oct 12, 2009)

:help
We bought a doe this year from a lady that was having to get rid of her animals because she is in the military and was being deployed. The actual deployment is here now and she called me this morning to see if I knew of anyone that was interested in buying this buck...she really wants him to go to a good home, instead of the butcher. I am trying to help her because I can't imagine having to give my animals up, but she is doing it for such an unselfish, patriotic reason. :sigh It has been hard on her to get rid of her babies but she has no choice...I will try to post a picture of him...he is located in Southeastern Michigan...thanks everybody!

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## debrad636 (Jul 17, 2008)

Love the spots, What is his bloodlines? Tell her thanks for her sacrifice. We will pray for her safe return.


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

How much and what's his pedigree?


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## LittleFarm (Oct 12, 2009)

I called her to get more information, got vm, but this is the information that I have so far...until she gets a chance to call back...:
Sire is "Sweet Harmony Yankee Doodle". Dam is "Old* Glory Black Eagles Penny". ADGA registered Nubian buck, 3 years old, stunning black with white spots and brown on legs and underbelly, very nice build, awesome personality. Great color producer and milking lines.
I have met this buck and he is a charmer! :-D
I'll update when she returns the call.
Thanks!!!


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## LittleFarm (Oct 12, 2009)

She was originally asking $200 back in the Spring, but she really wants him to go forth and breed and not to the butcher, so she did mention that the price is way lower...but I did not ask...I will do that...and update...we are also waiting for the birth of his kin from the doe we bought from her, sometime in the next four weeks...can't wait


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

The dam isn't coming up on the ADGA website. 
Any confo shots?


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Nevermind got the pedigree


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

My friend bought 2 does from her last year. They might have been CAE positive; they had congestive udders, big knees, impossible to milk. I was very disappointed for my friend. This was her first experience with goats and she had a crappy time. The dams both had triples and many of the kids had parrot mouth (from the buck for sale). 

She was trying to get rid of her goats last year saying that it was a military reason...I don't understand why she is desperate to sell her goats all the time? 

I would be a little cautious of this buck!


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## LittleFarm (Oct 12, 2009)

Wow Dana...not my experience at all, my doe is CAE negative and a wonderful doe...ever since we purchased from her in June, she has kept in touch with us and if you know anything about being deployed they don't tell ya and just send you...it is a long process of additional training, testing, etc. that takes about six months...so I don't know about your comment about "wanting to get rid of her animals all the time" remark. Did you help your newby friend with her first experience in buying goats and she ended up with two CAE positive 'maybes'???? 
I had a good experience with her and I can tell that she sincerely wants her animals to go to a good home.
She has no other choice at this time, finding good homes for 4 horses and some goats takes time.
I'm amazed that you are soooo sure it is the same person....anyway, if anyone is interested in him...that is fine...I am just trying to help her out, her sacrifice alone, is reason enough for me...gotta love opinions 
Thanks
Gina


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Dana-Thank you for adding your experience to this thread. It is very valuable to know things like this about a breeder and animals for sale so it is brave and responsible of you to try and save someone else some heartache. Kudos! We all take a lot of flack over telling the truth about animal sales but don't let it discourage you. We all need to help each other and prevent the heart ache your friend had with her first purchase. Everyone should ask for recent CAE negative test results before buying. If you want the animal badly- pay for and arrange the test yourself if the buyer will not. The expense is far less than the story Dana knows about all that her friend went thru. Loving your animals often has nothing to do with the health conditions. Ignorance has cost many a newbie a bad start in goats. 
Gina consider yourself lucky your girl is negative but keep testing!
Has she freshened yet? You can talk to Tammy about her non-symptomatic beautiful soft uddered perfectly healthy doe that was raging positive so don't go by appearances! 
Lee


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks Lee for understanding my rant. I know I am opinionated about this breeder, but after seeing what my friend went through; bottle feeding 6 kids and trying so hard to get milk from their dams for them made me mad at the breeder. Regardless if this breeder didn't know if they were CAE or not, the does were still horrible milk goats. One had an orifice on the side of her teat and milk would stream out through your fingers. Anyway, I'm just upset. I've seen this woman's ad for this buck over a year ago. Same story...military deployment. My friend who bought the goats thought she was helping her out too. I am thankful for her service to my country, but not her farm ethics. If she knew she was going to deploy last year and tried to sell this same buck but didn't, why did she decide to keep him and breed all her does again and put herself in this situation? She was asking $300 for him in her ad a few weeks ago. 

I'm sure she is a nice lady, but to make people feel bad about her leaving when she decided to keep goats long after she knew she would have to sell them is a pity.


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## LittleFarm (Oct 12, 2009)

*UPDATED: buck needs a new home quick (hearsay included)*

I would hope that anyone who is interested in aquiring this buck and of course do CAE and CL testing or contact her about him...let me know... I have no interest in getting into a peeing match with ya'll about any direct or indirect contact (always so accurate) with this buck...don't have the time, energy or interest.. AND God's knows that THE GOAT EXPERTS HAVE SPOKEN!!! 
I take care of my animals and am not ignorant (thanks Lee!) amazing how you can insinuate that of someone you haven't even met but have heard only hearsay :?
Come down from up high.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

A peeing match? That is absurd Gina. 
Info that helps people protect themselves and their livestock is not any kind of competition. 
It is being helpful. 
I was speaking of ignorant first time goat buyers being taken advantage of by buying unaware. I did not call you ignorant. You are already on the defensive and not reading what is written. You are too ready to take offense.


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## danielsumner (Jul 21, 2009)

Found the Craigslist ad for this goat from 10/18/10. It is listed as "for STUD or Sale". Not just for sale?? If someone is really trying to get rid of an animal, I don't understand the Stud part.

http://annarbor.craigslist.org/grd/2011858872.html

Daniel


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## Dana (Dec 7, 2009)

Amen to that. :yeahthat


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

buckrun said:


> A peeing match? That is absurd Gina.
> Info that helps people protect themselves and their livestock is not any kind of competition.
> It is being helpful.
> I was speaking of ignorant first time goat buyers being taken advantage of by buying unaware. I did not call you ignorant. You are already on the defensive and not reading what is written. You are too ready to take offense.


Yeah, whoa! Nobodies attacking here. I'd hope that if anyone had a bad interaction with an unethical breeder they would speak up on this forum in such a case. I think the majority of us here are glad Dana stepped up to share her experience and forewarn others here.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

> The dams both had triples and many of the kids had parrot mouth (from the buck for sale).


While the CAE status of the does that were purchased may be unknown, the parrot mouths are an actual fact. That should be enough for anyone to run from the thought of purchasing this buck! And if the owner/seller knows about the parrot mouths and continues to offer this buck for sale....well, I wouldn't call that ethical at all. Sounds like cabrito to me!

Nice of you to try to help this gal, but there are many many quality bucks and bloodlines out there - why perpetuate poor quality and defects? Probably a very good reason she hasn't been able to sell him...


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I applaud anyone who speaks their mind to help other new folks. I tried to help someone on the forum with a nubian purchase, only for her to go to the person I recommended and came home with a horrid mouth fault. Another doe, is now CAE positive. It's how some start out even with help. Thankfully the breeder of the CAE positive doe is going to make it right, not so for the breeder of the doe with the bite fault. No matter who you purchase from, test. Take faults seriously when you know they are in a line. Vicki


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Pretty much proved my point about abuse and telling the truth eh?


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## LittleFarm (Oct 12, 2009)

Here is my question...does parrot mouth only come from the buck??? or can it be from the doe also? Where those two does related? 
Sometimes when people spout off about their 'friends' experience, it is not always based on the actual facts and should be taken with a grain of salt, why didn't Dana's friend have those does tested??? Do they even now have a positive test result or have they assumed because of some symptoms. 
I immediately had questions about Dana's post because it was so vague... 
I would also ask the question to any who have responded...if you have ever had a CAE positive goat...have you culled them ALL immediately, with no second thought or have you kept them around??? or have you sold them as a pet or what??? 
Does every person that has a goat need to have a perfect goat to your standards??? The answer is no...everyone has different uses for their goats and some of us don't care about a cosmetic standard ...Every goat that I buy will remain at my farm until they die naturally...I don't sell my goats. What if someone else out there wanted a buck like him (with the parrot mouth question still unresolved) for their use. 
Dana - you put your experience on the post...if you are not interested in him...move on!
Buckrun - because I am not buying this buck, I would fully expect that if having a CAE negative buck was important to a buyer...that they would test before the purchase...I started this thread to let anybody who was interested (you aren't so not sure why you are still here)...if someone is interested, they need to do due diligence, not me. He may be just what someone else is looking for...and just one more thing...I'm not sure if she just copied and reposted the craigslist ad each time but it seemed like she was ready to let him go for nothing, since she is running out of time. 
I would still appreciate an answer on the parrot mouth issue...is it always the buck or doe...i'm thinking it can be either....thanks :crazy


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

<<What if someone else out there wanted a buck like him (with the parrot mouth question still unresolved) for their use. >>

Gina,

if this is the buck they want then they will still buy him despite the information being shared here by Dana, so what is the problem?

I will let more experienced breeders chime in on the genetics of parrot mouth and bite faults, but parrot mouths can be so severe the doe cannot consume food and needs to be put down. No matter what goals folks are breeding for, I have not yet met anyone who does not want healthy goats that are built right so they can function to their fullest.

Jana


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

The information that I have is that it is a simple recessive and both parents must have one expression of the defective gene for it for it crop up in one of every 4 offspring. This is 2001 info so there may be more current studies.

Yes. CAE animals are put down by responsible breeders.

Please don't try to determine what I read and comment on Gina. 
You are way out of line with your hostile comments. Do you need a hormone adjustment?  
Lee


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## LittleFarm (Oct 12, 2009)

I don't mean, by ANY stretch of the imagination, that I don't want the healthiest goats...my question was if the parrot mouth issue comes from the buck ONLY? Isn't there an assumption that the buck caused the parrot mouth??? Maybe, that is is how it happens, IDK, that's why I am asking...You have misunderstood my post.
If kids are born with parrot mouth...is it always the buck...that is my question...so this is how a forum helps answer questions...jump on and reply with your assumption...OMG!!! Really???


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## LittleFarm (Oct 12, 2009)

Please don't try to determine what I read and comment on Gina. 
You are way out of line with your hostile comments. Do you need a hormone adjustment?  
Lee

[/quote]

Thanks Lee...


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

"I was speaking of ignorant first time goat buyers being taken advantage of by buying unaware. "

I have to agree with Lee on this one. This forum is for ALL internet viewers who are looking for answers. If there is information out there that will help a new herd and the experience--yes I want that information available. There are many new folks that have no clue about testing or the fact there is CAE or CL. Nor are they aware of what parrot mouth is, what it means to the life span and breeding program of a goat/bloodline.

To answer your one question...no we do not have a single CAE goat left, our herd tested negative in May. They went to the market and the doe went to a home to feed calves. I miss her terribly, she was a smart loving animal and had the SWEETEST udder So yes there are other purposes and then they become meat, like Dee Dee. There are some herds that yes keep that one astounding doe (and I mean they have to be astounding) separate from the herd, in another location away from the herd, planned breeding, planned kidding and kids pulled at birth...just for the bloodlines. The colostrum isn't used, the milk is for pigs or calves-or not used. Alot of work.
People wanting their animals bred by our boys MUST have CAE/CL testing or we won't breed them.

Not peeing here.


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## danielsumner (Jul 21, 2009)

LittleFarm said:


> Dana - you put your experience on the post...if you are not interested in him...move on!


I'm a newbie, trying to learn as much as I can before I get my livestock. I want to come to this forum and have Dana and Others shout from the mountain top about stuff like this. This forum is about learning, care and information. Honest information. If all someone wants is "oh how cute", "guess how many kids are in there", and all that fluff, go to Homesteading Today's goat forum. I'm here to learn, and I believe that I'm learning from the cream of the crop. No nonsense. I like the "Goat Experts" here. People can be blunt here. If someone can't take it, they need to spend their time elsewhere. I've asked stupid questions and have gotten great answers. I've also been on the blunt end of a response. Hey I'm a big boy and this is not grade school. Wrong information can result in bad situations with the animals. OK I'll step down from my soapbox now.

Daniel


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> many new folks that have no clue about testing or the fact there is CAE or CL


This was brought home to me once again a couple of weeks ago when someone looking for new goats told me the story of the 2 she had just buried. They were mother and daughter and had 'arthritis' real bad. Walking on their knees and the vet said that's just something goats get. This person had goats for 12 years with no info on CAE.
She has promised to read all the archives here before getting new stock. She was horrified and crying that she could have saved her animals all that suffering if she had been aware of the disease. Not a unique case.

Really Gina- we are here to help. Don't know why you are so insulted by everything every one says.
So lighten up and learn some stuff and help your friend learn too! 
Lee


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

In most situations when a bad mouth creeps in, it's in a buck used over several related animals, or a bloodline that has been bred many times over without a problem. Even related bucks used with no problems. So when a buck is used on animals like this and produces parrot mouth or bite faults, than yes the offending buck is the cause of this. When breeding unrealted animals nobody can no where anything comes from.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

LittleFarm said:


> Dana - you put your experience on the post...if you are not interested in him...move on!


Interest in an animal for sale is not a requirement to join in on a thread.

On the parrot mouth- I think the gene is present in both parents for it to be exhibited.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Recessive genes that cause inherited defects must be expressed by both parents. One of every four offspring will be abnormal BUT two will also be carriers regardless of no signs of the defects. One will be genetically normal.


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## LittleFarm (Oct 12, 2009)

Thanks for the answers!


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Punnet Square, basics of a phenotype, determining the genetic characteristics of traits from sire and dam. Thank you Gregor Mendal...from Lindsey.
Tam


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

Caprine Beings said:


> Punnet Square, basics of a phenotype, determining the genetic characteristics of traits from sire and dam. Thank you Gregor Mendal...from Lindsey.
> Tam


However, Barbara McClintock won a Nobel Prize for proving that not all genetics is that simple. There are even genes that hop around, change places, and do unstatistical things depending on what other genes are nearby and affecting expression. (SIGH)


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Chris your right, thats why Lindsey said "BASIC". Good grief.
Tam


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

LittleFarm said:


> Sometimes when people spout off about their 'friends' experience, it is not always based on the actual facts and should be taken with a grain of salt, why didn't Dana's friend have those does tested???
> 
> I immediately had questions about Dana's post because it was so vague...


Yes sometimes when people spout off abt their friends, it _should _ be taken with a grain of salt. But when a respected member of the forum, with no history of dramatic incidence or crying wolf, says she has had an experience with a breeder and/or had seen get with major faults from a buck being listed for sale on this site, it IS *NOT * taken with a grain of salt.

I don't know your deffinition of 'Vague' but in her post she calmly and efficiently stated her experiences, the major reasons she would be weary of him and then she left it at that. I think people who skim through replies, (Obviously confrontational from the gate) reply to only part of what the forum member said, taking things completely out of context and explodes violently ranting and yelling and 'assuming'... Well we immediately had questions, just like you! So why r u so mad at us?

This is "Dairy Goat Info" Not "Dairy goat Each To His Own" Or "Dairy Goat Don't Share Your Opinions" So don't get made when your posts are responded to with Information, it's what we do


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## Holly (Mar 27, 2009)

Just my opinion, But if the does werent tested than one cant assume that the does are / were CAE positive. And neither can we assume that the parrot mouth came from the buck... 
I understand however what its like to be a newbie to goats and get taken.... I bought a pure bred only to find out she wasnt, and completely trusted the seller, only to find out my purchase wasnt anything I expected. But thats the way we figure out whom to really trust, and whom not to....Opinions, well everyone has one...


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

OK I am trying to find the pedigree for the dam and its not comming up on ADGA's website what am I doing wrong or is she not registered? I got the sires pedigree to come up.


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## Lynn_Theesfeld (Feb 21, 2010)

Sometimes you just have to play with it, but here is a link to her pedigree-

http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=N001246169


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I can't say much about the buck or his genetics that haven't already been mentioned but, deployment? My son is career military. He has had his deployment date changed 5 times in the past 6 months, disrupting his wedding and honeymoon plans, his move, the rental on the house, his reception etc........they tried to plan around it each time the date was changed, but Uncle Sam kept messing up their plans! He leaves for real this week, but can't say what day. Secret squirrel stuff.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Secret squirrel stuff.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Well, yes, they change it around, etc. But it's not like being in the military today that deploying itself was a huge surprise! That's what I don't get...did she not expect to ever have to deploy, and now that she is, gee, what do I do with these goats???


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Regardless of the speculation about his potential unkown genetic defects- he has plenty just to look at. If anyone really wants this buck I would be planning on downsizing my herd. I mean each goat not the numbers.
3 years old and only a bit larger than an average doe? If it is not genetic for him to be so small but due to management do you want to deal with potential health problems of an animal that has been stunted?
I would recommend that you surf some websites and look at the structure of a Nubian with good diary character. Your buck is the most important purchase you make and can haunt you for years.
Most breeders just post the dam and relatives of the buck but there are a few still posting buck photos. TLC Farms and Jacob's Pride come to mind right away. 
Lee


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I wish my website was up to date, still waiting on the photographer :/. Then you could see Kastdemur's Ghengis Khan in his glorious buckness Right before his yucky rutness :rofl. ANYWAY...he disp[lays true nubian size and stature, there is nothing stunted about him! :biggrin

Sorry but for 3 the buck for sale is WAY smaller than G-man who will be 2 in March.
Tam


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Extraordinary size may not be a major requirement for some but to help this continue to be a buck shopping lesson and not a pissy pissing contest I would like to point out that a seriously important feature is body length. A buck without length will produce daughters that do not have body capacity to convert the huge amount of roughage necessary while carrying multiple large fetuses and keeping her own body condition and accumulating reserves to milk a long lactation. 
There is the issue of the sloping rump as well which could contribute to low slung poorly attached udders that end up being kicked when walking contributing to further breakdown and poor udder health.
As mentioned in another thread there are many people breeding very good quality animals from 'brand' name heritage with correct structure that do not ask the prices of the nationally known herds. All this good breeding is meant to filter down thru the entire national herd but progress in overall quality is dependent on good breeding decisions and culling. This animal would have been in the freezer here at weaning.


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## LittleFarm (Oct 12, 2009)

Thanks everybody for responding...the one thing that I can comment on, having seen him up close and personal he did not appear to have any oral deformities. :nooo
AND now that the latest poster has added yet another 'run like hell problem' with this buck...I have additional questions and must also say that I am pretty dang sure that this buck's growth was not stunted, having seen and touched him. 

Question: 
1. Isn't it true that goats are not full grown until they are three years old, generally?
2. Hasn't it been established on this thread that this buck has been for sale for over a year?
The picture posted here is the same picture that has been posted on the same updated craigslist post for the past year!
3. Wouldn't that make the picture of the buck that of a less than full grown goat???
4. So wouldn't that make the stunt issue posed, a doubtful issue with this buck?

:rofl


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi again Gina- thanks for hanging in there with us!
Size varies by line and by management practices as described in many threads here.
The word stunting I think has you fired up because you perhaps think it is the same as neglect. It it more often a lack of time- resources and mostly of information. He may NOT be stunted but regardless he is very small for even a 2 year old and adding that to his other flaws he is not a promising sire prospect.
The info I have posted is in a effort to help by keeping people from spending money and much more importantly resources and TIME on an animal that will NOT take them forward toward quality dairy does worth keeping for the long haul. Does that can jump up on the stanchion with a well attached udder and no kidding problems at 10 and 12 years old. 
I cannot post the photos that belong to other people but learning about quality conformation by looking at LOTS of goats can cut time and money spent needlessly- ask me how I know! 

Lee


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