# Doe off- low temp



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Savanna isn't quite right. She's not making as much milk, not as strong of an appetite- thinking about it, the last few days she's not ate as much grain. I'm going to take her temp. She's about 5 weeks fresh. Just wanting ideas. Eyelids are good.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Doe off*

Ok, her temp is 99.4, her sister's is 101.4. So I'm assuming hypocalcemia. I don't get it. She kidded with twins, she's not a particularly heavy milker, she has good bone, they've been eating lots of alfalfa. I didn't even milk her a full lactation on her last lactation! I will start her on CMPK injectible.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Doe off*

I gave her 30 cc's just now. She is still eating, just not with fervor. A little hunched up.

*I'm not sure when to dose her again, however?*


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm going to dose her every 2 hours for now. 

I have injectable vitamin A and D, wondering if this would be a good idea, it being winter and all.


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## todog (Dec 10, 2011)

ashley, sorry no one has responded. i havent had to use cmpk so not knowing how to use it i went to search and look at many post. most said to inject twice a day. there is just so much info out there and its in so many different post that a doe could die before you can find the info you need. hope someone gets on here that knows alot more about it than i do. sorry i am not much help. praying though!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Sounds like you are doing the right things, Ashley.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks. I'm going to go to the vet to get a new bottle as this one is very old and has specks floating in it. I expect they are minerals dissipated out of solution, so probably not ideal. It was unopened at least. I went ahead and gave her the vit A and D. Thinking about it, I use whole grains so they are not fortified. My minerals are just minerals as well. Then thinking about the drought last year, the does probably spent most of their time in the barn or woods, because anywhere the sun was hitting was scorched. Only thing I can think of?

I'm going to check her temp on the next dose. I've given her three doses, the second I gave in two hours as a total zombie and I went four hours on the other. I just do so awful waking up at night. And I hid my needles from myself at my 1am wakeup and didn't think I'd ever find them. Anyway, I'm going back to two hours now. 

Thinking about giving her some multimin as well- she is due for her next copper bolus. 

Also thinking about giving all my dos that are later in pregnant and in milk, an A&D shot. A little afraid of it because of the warning on the bottle, but you know how that goes.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Why are you assuming hypocalcemia? 5 weeks fresh and not a heavy producer means she is running a very low risk of hypocalcemia. I can't tell you what is ailing her, but an under-temp indicates shock and/or inability to keep her temp up (is it cold where you are?). Give her banamine immediately to prevent shock/reduce fever (yes, if it's cold, fever can turn into under temp very quickly in a sick doe). 

I would expect something else is ailing your doe (don't worry, your Ca shots wouldn't have hurt her, just won't help her), possibly pneumonia, a digestive issue or a high worm load. I would give her a shot of Di-Methox 40 subQ (6 cc), 2cc of banamine and fecal to see what you can find out about that. The fact that she doesn't eat grain is no reason for immediate panic, but do make sure that she's eating hay and that she's chewing cud. If not, you are probably looking at a digestive issue (can you hear her stomach work? put your ear on her side and listen). A bit of baking soda can't hurt, she if she licks it out of your hand: most does are smart enough to know when they need it.

On my Di-Methox advice: that's me, I know most people on this forum suggest Tylan 200 and drugs like it, I just prefer the di-methox, had super results with it. Also, keep energy in her. I like to give warm water with an electrolyte with probiotics to any doe under stress (just in a bucket, they'll drink it themselves if they want it, only drench if the doe is down or very weak) be it illness, injury or just kidded.

Good luck,

Marion


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Not gonna give banamine to a doe with an already low temp. 

I think it's milk fever because the symptoms are classic. Doesn't want to come into the milk room (she tries to turn back and get away from the milk stand), almost no milk, hunched up a bit, shivering hind quarters when I bring her in the barn and low temperature. She may not be a prime candidate, but there was a doe on here not long ago that was late lactation, not milking much and also getting plenty of alfalfa and had milk fever too. There are other factors. I will keep an eye for other things though. It is good not to laser focus on what i *think* it is and i do have a tendency to do that. But she is not running a temp so I'm doubting infection.

I'm actually not sure what she as producing... This is her third lactation, she did t produce a lot lat year but we had barberpole issues. She was wormed recently and has good eyelids and has for a while. She is dam raising (took kids off overnight why I saw she want making much milk night before last) so I don't actually know what she is producing now. I just know she didn't produce heavily last year and deplete her reserves that way.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

It is a mistake not to give banamine! She is running a temp: it's low!! That can be a lot more dangerous than high. Just my two cents, hope others chime in.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

But banamine lowers temp?

Good news though! She came into the barn on her own when I called her, she is eating better (still not tearing into like she should but eating well) and she's even feeling good enough to put some of the younger gals in their place. Not hunching so much or shivering. I tried to take her temp again but used a sandwich Baggie as I'm out of probe covers, didn't work. Need to use Saran Wrap instead forgot that works well lol. But I can tell by how she's acting she's feeling better.

What do y'all think about giving them all the A&D? Vitamin d is the only thing I can think of. That or too much calcium from getting straight alfalfa all winter and not enough grain to balance?


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Banamine fights inflammation and toxicity (which can occur with many diseases, including milkfever, ketosis) and as a result will reduce a fever when there is one. Banamine is not solely a fever reducer, that is a misunderstanding with that drug. it is very benificial to animals in shock due to toxicity.

Not enough grain is never the problem: goats are ruminants: you did wel giving her plenty of good hay and almost no grain (or none) if she wasn't lactating or growing


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I would not use banamine in an infant goatling who is not regulating their temp, it is fine for adults, in fact it is our most underused help we can give.

When you give the dose of CMPK or calcium glugonate, you usually can see some immediate help, she may not be up and running around, but she is perky, she will eat some, she will try to get up and go get something to drink. I may redose 2 hours later for several hours, then move to 4 to 6. You are fixing a metobolic crash, it is emergency time and nothing is going to quickly fix it. You will go through at least one bottle if not two of your CMPK, quit to soon and she is right back to where she was.

Can both Ashley and Marion be correct.....yes, because even with her head in a feeder full of alfalfa, is she utilizing the calcium? Maybe not. Too much grain to quickly? Yes, it's what I did to my doe trying to hit a show in the fall, too much grain for as little as she was milking, milk fever. A sick doe also is ripe for worms, pneumonia, cocci...all opportuistic waiting to strike. And it does become, which comes first, the lowered immunity always comes first. Vicki

Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage - AGAIN!
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2011, 08:48:23 PM »
Quote Modify Remove Split Topic
This is classic for lactational acidosis. 

Our doe Tori had almost identical symptoms...except she couldn't get up at all. She was 8+ months into her lactation (7 years old) and went down so hard we had to pull her into the house on a sled (I so distinctly remember that it was January). Her temp was 99 degrees... ended up calling Sue Reith after someone on this board told me she was as good as dead. She advised me to continue with the CMPK (can you get some from your vet now?) and we also had to give her lactated ringers. We also gave Baking soda and the big turning point was when I transferred cud from a healthy goat to her...

I am happy to report that not only did Tori completely recover 10 days later, (it took 4 days for the turn-around), but 1 week later she was giving 7.5 lbs/milk/day again.

Don't milk her until she is recovered.

CMPK every 4-6 hours (I gave every 4 hours during the day and every 6 hours at night).

Baking soda drench every 4-6 hours (correspond with the CMPK).

Acidosis also suggests Excenel/Naxcel once/day.

Lactated ringers as required.

This is not an expensive fix, but it isn't free. Your doe may not come back into milk once you are done, so only you can evaluate whether you want to put her down or go full throttle for treatment. 

PS Click in the pasterns is not necessarily due to CAE. so I would still call her asymptomatic. 

Sometimes, despite correct management, stuff happens, metabolically speaking. The fact that this doe bounced back after initial treatment would lead me to believe that your management is good - just this particular doe had something get tweaked....and you did not continue the treatment, so she relapsed.

Continue the treatment and also treat for acidosis (if you read Goat Medicine by Smith/Sherman, you will see that the treatment for hypocalcemia and lactational acidosis is almost identical... just different causes).

Please keep us updated.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Ok, yea I'm not terribly familiar with banamine. Need to read up on it. Will keep up with the cmpk. 

It's just strange, having had goats for over six years, never had this before, and here it pops up, in a doe not even in the most vulnerable part of her breeding/lactation cycle?


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

That's why it's so much easier to deal with things than it is to deal with animals. They throw you curveballs, usually just when you think you have figured it all out. Keeps you humble and alert, though, I've been a farmer all of my adult life and I still learn new stuff, new diseases, new treatments, new points of view. keeps it interesting :biggrin


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Heh I don't *want* to learn new diseases! lol They wreck my sleep.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

FYI: I had a doe with a lowered temp and my vet suggested Banamine, too. I was surprised, but it did help.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Ashley said:


> Ok, yea I'm not terribly familiar with banamine. Need to read up on it. Will keep up with the cmpk.
> 
> It's just strange, having had goats for over six years, never had this before, and here it pops up, in a doe not even in the most vulnerable part of her breeding/lactation cycle?


Sounds familiar to me, anyway, huh, Ashley? Glad she's improving for you.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yea, I'm glad too! She's a sweet girl and I feel bad giving her those shots. She doesn't like them 

Stacey, do you think your goats a lot less sun this year? I know Kansas had drought too. Perhaps our does spent too much time in the barn and didn't make enough vitamin D? Or in my case, the barn and the woods. Because everywhere the sun was getting, was dead.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Ashley said:


> Ok, yea I'm not terribly familiar with banamine. Need to read up on it. Will keep up with the cmpk.


Do you mean, you personally? Because banamine has been talked about on the forum forever!

I would not be without it!


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I didn't even consider if it was a sun issue, but it's possible. We do grow our own hay (both prairie and alfalfa) so part of it could be the drought affecting the quality as well as the quantity of the hay. And with costs of everything rising, I know that I scaled back a bit on alfalfa pellets hoping they would make it up with hay and thinking I might have been overdoing it before, but obviously, it wasn't enough, so I upped the pellets again. The girls all seem to be doing well now, getting rounder by the day.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh yea, I know about it Cindy, just haven't had experience with it much- not familiar with how it works.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

OK, Savanna really freaked me out. I was giving her her shot on the milk stand while she was eating a handful of alfalfa pellets. She was doing her usual thing, trying to move away from the syringe or whatever. But then she started maybe choking and she peed on the stand and starting to foam at the mouth. I got her down (still had 7 cc in the syringe) and she was shaking her head and slung a bit of cud, and was kind of rubbing the top of her head on the wall. I let her out into the doe pen and she went and started eating hay. Perhaps the pain of the shot caused her to choke or bite her tongue or something? I am hating giving her these shots


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Make sure the CMPK is warm. Use a big enough needle that it takes little to no effort to give it. Use a new needle each time so it's sharp. Give it as high as you can pull skin out to make sure you are actually under the skin, so it flows down the body. If you are struggling you don't have a big enough needle or you are not under the skin. Vicki


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm under the skin, but yea, I bet a bigger needle would be better. I think I'll run and get some tomorrow. I'm thinking she just kinda choked on her cud. Sure scared the crap out of me.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Ashley said:


> Sure scared the crap out of me.


Wow, I bet it did!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

That is a good sign that she is eating.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Savanna is doing very well. I'm going to twice a day shots now. I'm trying to figure out if I should try to milk her or not? I'm leaning towards not because I do NOT want to do that again. I've got does due to kid in a couple weeks and I'm just super sensitive to interrupted sleep. I go right back to low adrenal function and start to feel like I can't handle anything (I had just dealt with a calf issue that had me up at night). I can't have two things in a row without a week or more of good sleeps behind me. Pretty pathetic but it's my weakness. 

Anyway, I've got her kids taking cow's milk and I'm bottling them four times a day. She really wants her babies. I'm thinking of taping her teats up so they can't nurse (and probably some superglue involvement) and letting them be back with mama and continuing their bottles. She has made some milk, but hasn't filled up her udder or anything. She is eating well, comes into the barn on her own to eat (despite all the injections she's been getting in there) and eating normal etc. 

I'm considering just letting her dry up and seeing if I can breed her for fall. She will get fat if I let her go dry very long. 

Thoughts are welcome. Would breeding her back that soon be bad? It doesn't seem like it would to me but never done this before.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Who knows what made savanna have milk fever this time but I bet she will be just fine re-breeding her for fall. 
I probably wouldn't even try to put her kids back with her for a while. That seems too risky. They'll all be fine even though it seems kind of sad to keep them separate, it is best for her health.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> When you give the dose of CMPK or calcium glugonate, you usually can see some immediate help, she may not be up and running around, but she is perky, she will eat some, she will try to get up and go get something to drink. I may redose 2 hours later for several hours, then move to 4 to 6. You are fixing a metobolic crash, it is emergency time and nothing is going to quickly fix it. You will go through at least one bottle if not two of your CMPK, quit to soon and she is right back to where she was.
> 
> Can both Ashley and Marion be correct.....yes, because even with her head in a feeder full of alfalfa, is she utilizing the calcium? Maybe not. Too much grain to quickly? Yes, it's what I did to my doe trying to hit a show in the fall, too much grain for as little as she was milking, milk fever. A sick doe also is ripe for worms, pneumonia, cocci...all opportuistic waiting to strike. And it does become, which comes first, the lowered immunity always comes first. Vicki
> 
> ...


Funny....I was thinking lactational acidosis, and here is my long lost post. 

You can also just have acidosis (such a common thing when a goat goes "off"). Baking soda drench - can't hurt, might help. And if you do have an acidosis problem, it is the only thing that will turn things around quickly. The other stuff is support - important, absolutely, but you still need to address the underlying problem.

BTW, to us, everything is cause to look to be proactive - sometimes it is just b-complex and baking soda drench. Other times may need ban amine, antibiotics, etc. But please don't ignore problems (this is to everyone reading, not the OP) and hope the doe is fine in the AM. We have found that catching something early can mean just a hiccup, rather than a full blown problem to recover from.

PS You can give banamine to a doe with a low temperature.


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