# Horns on Dairy Goats



## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

I understand that pretty much everybody disbuds their kids. I'd like to ask about horns in goats.

When I had fiber goats the trend was to let them have horns, because they mostly live out on pasture and if dogs or something came at them the horns would give them a fighting chance. In fact I found this to be true. My best cashmere doe was not shy about using her horns on dogs, and ran dogs out of the pasture far more than once. I currently have a Nubian doe who has horns and is the same way. 

Back when I had dairy goats, about the time of the dinosaurs, I was getting does from a commercial dairy and they had sawn off horns - about maybe 6" of horn but missing the tips. I assume so they would fit in the milking stands. 

So my questions are: What are your experiences with the down side of horns? Can a doe with horns be shown, or would this be against the rules? If you have a goat with horns, do you have them cut off like the dairy goats I used to have (I know this has to be done by a vet)? Currently the few dairy goats I have do have horns, and I felt they would help to protect them out on the pasture - but perhaps I should look into having the vet cut them partly off.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

A doe with horns cannot be shown. I don't have any prejudice against horns, I think they are beautiful but what I found was that working closely with the goats, like you do when you milk daily, it is much easier for me and safer for the goats to have no horns. They kept gouging each other and me when they had horns. It wasn't a problem before I started milking when the barn was more open and they didn't have to go into a small room for milking twice a day. I never had one stuck in a fence or any major injuries.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I have heard that horns make it easier to lead them around, I use collars. I have heard that horns will help a goat with dog attacks, maybe one dog, maybe a small dog who isn't very hungry  I have seen goats with their heads stuck in fences, in summer, that goat would be dead in our heat, I am sure yours also. The horns were tipped because the does were using them on each other, if to fit in stanchions the horn would be removed down to where the doe can duck under the head stanchion of the milkstands. I have heard it helps them regulate heat, maybe, but Nubian's have ears for that also. 

The biggest down side of horns is with sales, adding $60 or so to the purchase of goats from you into my herd to have their horns surgically removed at Texas A&M may not be worth the expense, it will hurt your sales of kids. Very honestly and not meaning at all to offend, seeing horns on your ADGA Purebred Nubian's on your website would have me clicking off your website. Now keeping your adult herd in horns, that is up to you, but when you go to sell them, as ADGA purebreds, because you can register goats with horns, you can DHIR goats with horns and you can Appraise goats with horns, you just can't show them...but because most people have duck under head stanchions, it means no dairy is going to buy your doe, no family with disbudded goats will buy your doe. So it hurts sales of your adults also.

Yes we are unapologetic snobs. We prefer purebred Nubian's, we want disbudded animals, we only buy from those who test for CAE, and more and more G6S questions pop up, in fact I lost a sale this year for the first time due to this question. 

So apologies to the horned does, to the American Nubian's and to you because it would be so much easier to run your percentage Boers with horns with horned Nubian's, and once you dehorn the Nubian's they won't live very happy lives with horned Boers. Vicki


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

My vet would not tip the horns when i asked about it. Too bloody. I did round off tips myself though with a file. And later, i banded the horns that were small enough to be banded and got all the new babies disbudded.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I think it is true horns would give a better chance against dogs. Not a fix, but a help. I do know years ago when the neighbor had a herd of goats running around, dad came up on a couple dogs, backing the horned buck into the pond with him trying his best to fend them off. His ability to hold the dogs back for a time was just enough for dad to come along and see it and the dogs be dispatched. When we had some dogs here I had a goat bitten immediately, because they know they have no chance defense they run. But it's certainly no guarantee and not at all enough benefit to outway the problems IMO.

If I had meat goats in a big area, yea I'd leave their horns one. But dairy goats are handled daily, and they have big old fine skinned udders for horns to hook into. It's just not a good idea. And of course they can get caught up in a fence in the sun and die a really bad death from the heat. 

Our milk cow is horned, and I just took a regular wood saw to the ends of them and tipped them. There is no blood in the ends of the horns. I took probably an inch off. So they are flat now and can't poke someone's eye out!


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

OK, great, some very interesting perspectives. I had not considered sales. Currently my Boers are either sold to the 4-H kids as a project, or else they go into the freezer. I live in a pretty remote area, and I bet even if I had a gorgeous herd of registered goats I'd have a hard time with sales just due to how remote I am! Nevertheless it is something to think about. 

I had a goat once that would stick her head through the fence and get caught, so I duct-taped a short length of broom handle to her horns - she looked like a Chinese water girl - and by the time the duct tape wore off she had learned not to do it. Other than that, never had one get stuck although of course there is the potential.

Also never considered that a dairy doe may be more vulnerable due to her udder. 

A further question then, because banding has been mentioned - can one actually band the horns on kids, and at what age? Does it work properly so that you get the whole horn off without torturing the goat? I had a vet who considered banding for wethering to be very cruel, so she taught me a different method and that's what I use. However I've got a bander because I used to raise sheep, and that is what I used on their tails.


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## skeeter (Aug 11, 2010)

I banded horns on a few doe,"back during dinosaur times". Sometimes it worked perfect, sometimes they got scurs, sometimes they bashed themselves against the buildings and broke the horns off early.
They were always in noticable pain though, sometimes for a couple days, sometimes much longer. They would loose condition, it would interupt their growth if they were young.
It isn't a nice memory of my early goat keeping years. I wouldn't do it again given a choice.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I agree with Jill on her assessment of banding horns. I did have nice looking heads afterwards on the girls I did. The two boys I did, failed. They grew deformed horns after banding.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I would not have horned goats here. Even when I used to have Boers in my herd, all kids were disbudded. I had a few goats in the past that I purchased that either had horns or bad scurs. They got caught in the cattle panels. One Boer used to beat up the Nubians with her horns. I sold all the horned ones to herds where it didn't matter. I tell people that if they want kids with horns from me, I need the money upfront before they pick up the kid or the horns go unless they get the kid at under a couple weeks old. My friend who hauls goats to auction doesn't want to deal with horns, so even the wethers bound for the freezer are disbudded.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks for those answers, I had wondered if banding might not be painful for them. Also wondered about scurs... I had my share of goats that had bad scurs, so once I had fiber goats I was actually happy they had horns because at least they did not have scurs growing down into their eyes or something! 

I'll have to talk to my vet and see if he will disbud for me. At this point it is not an issue because the goats I have are strictly grade (even though they sure look pure Nubian, there is not a tatoo or paper in sight) but maybe *someday* I'll have a really nice Nubian doe, and at that point I would want to disbud any purebred kids she had. (Hey, I can dream, right? )


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Jacquee, I live at the dead end of a dirt road in East Texas, most of my goats fly to their new homes and we are also offering two hauls this year to take kids to common points for pickup. Local is rarely your market. I would be out of business if I had to rely on locals for all my sales. Vicki


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I hate horns on goats. I have been impaled several times by them, totally accidental, and I won't ever have a horned goat again. The horns did not protect the goats that I personally know any better than goats with no horns. A butt from a hard headed goat will knock a dog just as far as a horned one. Most goats either run or freeze when chased by a canine anyway, at least mine do. If a dog really wants a goat, horns won't make much difference.

I have seen to many damaged udders from the more dominant does fighting with the lesser does. I've seen injured kids form other does in the herd with horns. I never noticed a difference in heat tolerance between those with horns and those without.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

We use fences and dogs and lighting for protection. If goats are being forced to protect themselves with their horns, something needs to be done. Not to say you'll never have a problem, but relying on horns for protection while ignoring fencing and livestock guardian dogs, night shelters, etc. is a disaster waiting to happen. Even in remote areas goats need something besides their horns for protection. 

It's not just your purebred goats that need to be disbudded, all grades also. I've seen families buy a cheapo goat for their kids, that had horns, only to have to get rid of the goat several months later when that goat, whether on purpose or accidentally, hurt their child with those horns. Many people who buy goats for milk have children...and first time goat people often don't know the dangers of those horns. It's not worth the risk. 

My goats are awful to each other at milking time. Pushing, butting, etc. With horns, I'd have dead goats. No matter the pedigree, horns can maim and kill.


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