# Buckling with 1 testicle



## dreamfirefarm (Nov 15, 2011)

I want some opinions. I have a valuable buck kid genetic wise that I was going to keep. His dam is dead and he and his sister had to be delivered early about a week and a half. I checked him but didnt think to check testicles. So he has only one descended testicle. He is very very nice and I know that is not always a criteria to keeping a buck. But His genetics are important. I am on the fence about using him. Could it be just a mechanical issue maybe with him being born early or is it always genetic? I would love to hear some opinions on this. I dont need to be lectured I have been doing this for over 30 yrs I just haven't had any experience with this particular set of circumstances. I dont want to seem ungratefull I just know how these things can get out of hand when asking for opinions. So if anyone has had any experience with this I would be glad to have some input.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

I don't have a direct experience with cryptorchid goats, but in miniature horses this can happen pretty often (relatively speaking). It's thought to be genetic. Some people pay to have the surgery done (if the horse is valuable, or they paid a lot of money, they want to be able to show, and to get stud fees). My personal feeling is that this is the reason we see it so much in mini horses - people breed them, and the characteristic is passed on. The other thing I've seen in mini horses is stallions that are slow to descend, some taking as long as 5 years and then descending normally. Is there a chance he is just a slow developer? You don't say the age of the goat. 

I guess you just really have to sit down and decide if it's worth the risk, for you and your operation. I can see that there could be times when you will use an animal in a breeding program, even if not ideal, vowing to cull rigorously when the offspring are born.

I'm just starting in registered Nubians, and because I don't have deep pockets, I don't have perfect animals to start with. I've bought the best I can afford, and in some cases have done pretty well with value for dollar spent, but no National Champions in my barn at this point. Well, that's OK. You have to start somewhere, and I *AM* perfectly willing to cull rigorously. If the buck were ideal in all other respects, I just might be tempted to use him, so I completely sympathize.


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## Red Mare (Apr 23, 2011)

I've seen in horses where an injury can cause the ingulinal ring to tighten at an early age, and prevent one testicle from dropping. In that case, the other testicle is sitting literally right there, just cannot come through. 

If he's that nice, and valuable, I'd breed him to a few does, and see if any of his buck kids also develop the issue.


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## punchiepal (Aug 4, 2010)

We had a buckling last year with only 1. He was from a buck that is now deceased, so we were hopeful. When it was his time we investigated and the other testicle was clear up near the spine. I understand not every case is the same, however, we won't be taking the chance should one be born again.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I wouldn't be as concerned that it's genetic as whether or not he can and will breed does. My friend had a spotlight sale Nubiaan doe who was up in years. I asked for a doeling when it was time for her to kid as it was a breeding that had produced a quality daughter in the past. The doe was CAE positive, so I sent colostrum for any doe kids born. She had twin bucklings, so my friend pulled one and gave it the colostrum. She hadn't thought to check his testicles. The other buck kid stayed on the dam. I brought my kid home and noticed he had only one testicle. The other never descended. When I tried to use him on my young does, he didn't show any interest in them. His normal brother was interested in does and I hand bred him to one of my does. That one buck kid was the only criptorchid buck in any of those lines. If you want the lines, hang onto him, but he may not be able to get the job done.


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## dreamfirefarm (Nov 15, 2011)

this buckling in question is only 3 months. And I think I will keep him and see what happens the one testicle athats down seems normal for a young buckling


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It's just how I deal with things so take it or leave it............Valuable or not, you sell these problems to new folks. Why I am so anal about culling for defects, it doesn't just come back to bite me in the butt, but those who buy my goats. How will you prove him if you keep all his daughters and don't sell bucks out of him? Or will you disclose this fault.

I would have him looked at, I would assume a simple ultrasound by a reproduction specialist can tell you what is going on with the testicle, ones that stay up in the belly can become cancerous also. If it's something simply mechanical it could easily be pooped down. I check at birth, it's bad enough that we miss things during hectic kidding seasons. Vicki


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I agree with Vicki...
If you do take the chance, do it only for yourself, and be prepared to cull all of the offspring. It can be mechanical, but the general opinion is that it isn't worth it to take a chance that it is genetic. Biggest for me- this fault is a DQ, so he shouldn't even be registered as a buck from an ethical standpoint.


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## dreamfirefarm (Nov 15, 2011)

I know its a DQ in the show ring and since I am not ever going to show him or breed him to anything but my own stock dont worry I am not unethical. I have been in this business for 30+ years. I just wondered if anyone had run into this before. I am fine with the info I got and I am thru.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

My horse was suPposed to be cryptorchid according to a vet. Another vet cam out and said nope, it's right there! Popped it down and gelded that boy. He is such a better horse now! But anyway, I wonder if such a case would actually be a true fault in a goat?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ashley we had exactly the same thing happen in a horse, there was a thin membrane holding the testicle up, it was not a genetic problem it was an anomaly. Why I would have a vet look at him and ultrasound it...a vet that knows something about reproduction. Vicki


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Well.....just to toss in another side of things.....I know of several BIG breeders who had bucks that only had one testicle. And they produced numerous GCH daughters. In fact, I have semen from one of them in my tank ;-)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Maybe there would not be so many Tracy had anyone dared to cull the problem to begin with?


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Lynne - I can tell you the story of Kay little Boer buckling who had only one descended testicle . . . she felt sorry for him so left him in with his dam and all her big (you remember how big Kay's Nubians were!) Nubian does. That fall, she was wondering why none of her does were cycling! Yep, that little four month old Boer cryptorchid buckling had bred them all! LOL She ended up selling him to a big-time Boer breeder who used him for many years, may still be doing so. If you like him, use him and see what he throws.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Maybe there would not be so many Tracy had anyone dared to cull the problem to begin with?


The same argument could be made with a lot of traits, but people keep animals who are not great in one area, that have things in other areas that they like about them. This sounds dumb, but it's a siimilar idea. I was watching some stupid South Park episode with my husband last night where the kids had headlice. I was like, if only they would just give lice shampoo to everyone in the world and have them all use it at once, then there would be no more lice. LOL. But people are free to do what they want, so something like that would never work. We can't police everyone, and as Tracy said, there are GCH daughters from those bucks. Is it really such a bad thing to have cryptorchid bucks? I guess it is annoying if you want to castrate them, since they have to have surgery...I sure don't want to keep them here, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be useful to someone.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah I guess your right. Why cull? It's fine to just keep and breed animals with extra teats, bad bites, bad feet, one testicle, wry tails, totally blind....it's only a disqualification on the breed standard you are supposed to be using. It's OK to sell new folks bloodlines you know have these faults in them, if they use your buck one time, 10 years from now with an expensive straw of semen, they get their much anticipated but...OOOPs, he only has one testicle....buckling they were hoping for.......oh you know there was this old rumor that so and so kept this buck with the one testicle because he was such a good producer of GCH does for her. No don't cull, sounds like a wonderful idea. And further sounds like wonderful advice for new folks reading this forum. Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Wow.


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## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Yes, Wow. Sad but true. People get mad at "backyard" dog breeders. Why? For the same reason. Of course we don't butcher our dogs like we can the cull goats. The standards are there for a purpose, and in as much as it is hard to do, if we are going to live by those standards, we have to uphold those standards. There are many a show dog breeder who can judge a puppy when it is just hours old. If they see it will not hold up to the standard, it is put down. If they don't have the heart to put it down, they go through the expense of keeping the puppy until it can be altered, then sell it for much less than they have put into it. They are sticking by the standards.

This is why I asked questions about American vs Purebred Nubians. If the American Nubian is inferior, then what am I putting back out there if I breed them? I am putting out American Nubians, but this means that I HAVE to tell buyers that the goat(s) I am selling them have a goat somewhere in their past that was not registered, for whatever reason. Now I have 2 American Nubians, a buck and a doe. They will be bred together, but he will NOT be used on my purebred Nubian doe. I will keep the lines clean. I will register both the doe and the buck so that the buyers of their offspring can do the same. She will be used for milking, because her milk will be just as good as the other doe. They both will be kept up to date on all of their wormings and meds. But, I am going to keep the lines separate. Don't muddy the waters when it can be prevented.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I think I was being unclear before. I mean that there will always be people who are unwilling to cull for one thing or another, when another person is adamantly against it. I'm not saying that they shouldn't, or that it doesn't matter. Just that you can't control what everyone else is doing, it is their goats, and their decision, and that is why these things persist. 

I honestly don't know much about cryptorchid animals, I should. I do know that it can be genetic, but I'm not sure if it always is. I guess the only way you would know would be to do some test breeding, and cull the offspring if it is. (unless they are GCH. ) Ok, now I'm being a smart a**...


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## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Oh Nancy, I certainly wasn't coming down on you! I was simply agreeing with what you and Vicki said. I totally agree with you, that we cannot control what others do with their animals. This is one reason why puppy mills can't be stopped completely. People know when they walk into a pet store that the puppies there are from a mill. But look at those "puppy dog eyes" (pun intended), they can't just stand by and let that poor puppy sit there in that cage, they have to take it home. They just supported the mill with supply and demand.

We all breed our does for different reasons. One of my friends bred pygmy goats for no reason at all. Eventually her husband told her she needed to get rid of some of them because they only had 10 acres and 50 goats was just too many. It broke her heart, but she did start selling the youngsters and many of them, does included, went to people who were going to butcher them. 

We can't control what others do. People will continue to cheat the standards, and keep as much of it as secret as possible, just as they do in the dog world. I have seen it in the horse world as well. But if the question of "should I?" come up, who is going to stand up and tell that person, "No, you should not"? Vicki gave valid reasons as to why not, and that answers the question.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Would I personally use that crypto buck with GCH daughters - yes, good chance I might. BUT - BUT- BUT ---- *I* don't have a problem with culling offspring that have those issues. I don't keep them, nor do I sell them to someone else as a breeder. That's MY personal choice.....I've been amazed at how many breeders simply cut off 3rd teats -- and those does go on to GCH and to appraise high. That's something I simply don't want to do.

I don't know diddly about Nubians, but I do know in Alpines there are issues with many of the different lines. Third teats, spur teats, off bites, wry faces....That's simply part of breeding because none of them are perfect! You just have to learn what they are, and be prepared to deal with them - that doesn't mean that I don't do that breeding.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I was always taught that "crypto-ism" was genetic and not to breed any males that had that issue in any animal (except humans of course :/). I guess it all boils down to ethics, bettering the breed, what you plan on doing with your offspring and culling.

Personally? I would not use him for breeding unless he lost his missing testicle to injury or disease.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Clipping an extra teat off a dairy goat then going on to show, appraise, and sell breeding stock from that goat? Yeeps.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

smithurmonds said:


> Clipping an extra teat off a dairy goat then going on to show, appraise, and sell breeding stock from that goat? Yeeps.


Yeah, I've run into that too. It was only by a coincidence that I found out about the extra teat(s) (happened to me more than once that I ran into that very thing).

As a buyer, of course, I am not interested in buying an animal with that kind of background. I did do an "experimental" breeding once, but the resulting offspring was really not worth it, was culled, and I vowed not to do it again.


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

I think valuable genetics should not be automatically wasted because of any or all faults. As a breeder you have the right to make a choice. This buck has this fault, but he has these strengths. I can breed him to my doe who has the same weaknesses that he has strengths and see what happens. If it goes well... great. If not, pets or culls and don't repeat the breeding. Particularly in this case, it is a buck only problem. Does don't have testicles, so it might not be an issue. I agree that you can't sell these offspring without telling people what is up, or at least pricing them accordingly.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

If culling would get rid of all problems, then that could be the end of it. But I think, even if you got rid of every goat today with genetic issues like this, more would show up down the road. DNA is a physical thing and it's affected by things like deficiencies and toxins. I think that's where these things start, that and inbreeding. Very very unlikely I would use a true cryptorchid buck. But if he was out of an awesome doe and I thought he could really throw what I wanted- didn't have a brother etc. yes I would probably try him out. And yes I would let people know. And I would cull kids that had the same fault and move away from the buck in future.

On a sort of related topic, I do think sometimes genetic variety is undervalued. We like to take mr awesome and breed him to tons of does and collect him and use him as much as possible. Not such a bad thing. And some will allow very few of their bucklings to breed. And I understand why, but I think it's good when several bucks are used, saved from great animals, because you get that genetic variety and genes skip around a bit. The best *looking* buck out of a doe may not be the one that throws the best daughters.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

smithurmonds said:


> Clipping an extra teat off a dairy goat then going on to show, appraise, and sell breeding stock from that goat? Yeeps.


Oh yes. I was floored....particularly because 2 of the folks I heard it from were ADGA judges as well as breeders!


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## Polopony (Dec 24, 2011)

It is pretty common in Boers and now that the ABGA has instituted a ruling on teats, I imagine it will be happening more, but I also hope that they will be selecting does and bucks with correct teat structure.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Suzy - please do not think that because a Nubian carries an "A" on its registration paper in front of the "N" (e.g., meaning that it is an American rather than a Purebred) it is genetically or in any other way inferior. American Nubians often out show and out produce Purebreds. They show against each other in the same classes and in every way they are identical to each other except for the extra letter they have in front of their ADGA registration number. For example, since 2006 (the earliest records can be easily found on the ADGA website), there have been two National Senior Nubian Champions that were American Nubians (Kori-Brook Unbreak Mi Corazon and Redwood Hills Tarot Dahlia), as well as one National Junior Champion and two Reserve National Junior Champion Nubians that were Americans. More than 90% of the Kori-Brook Nubian herd is made up of American Nubians, many of whom have their Superior Genetics. Numerous top show herds in the United States also actively breed American Nubians, including Redwood Hills, Wingwood Farm and Hoanbu. If anyone has told you that American Nubians are somehow genetically inferior to their Purebred brothers and sisters they are very much mistaken. The problem is a perceptual, not an actual one.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

But....they sell for less, and other than to new folks who don't ask, or to someone else who already has all american Nubians, you won't be selling bucks. New folks can't take a hit like that. Until you see the big name breeders BUY and USE American bucks out of those national champions, then showing and winning a lot more than they are now with American does....like Alpine breeders have done. Then it will stop, not until then.

Caroline do you use American bucks on your purebred does? 

Maybe a quick poll.....

Vicki


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> American Nubians often out show and out produce Purebreds.


 This is might be true of Alpines but not Nubians. It is true that SOME American Nubians do out show and out produce purebreds but it is not often. If it was often, it wouldn't be an issue and most of us would be using American bucks instead of purebred bucks. I do agree that just because it is says "American" on the papers does not mean the animal is inferior. Each animal should be judged on its own merits and not papers alone. There are some purebreds that are pure junk.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

I do not have any American Nubian bucks, but I do have a line of American Nubian does and they have shown, milked and appraised equal to my Purebreds (Granddam Juliet *M and LA 07-05 EEE+ 89; Daughter Jakarta LA at 01-03 +VEV 83; Granddaughter Jamie Lee finished champion, LA at 4-05 of VEEE 90; Great-granddaughter Next Wish LA at 02-02 VE+V 87; Great-great-granddaughter Harmony LA at 02-03 VVVE 89 along with winning several reserve championships as a yearling and two-year-old milker, and whose milk production this year at 79 days into her second lactation is 755 lbs with 3.5% butterfat).

Tim, you are probably correct overall as there are 3-4 times more Purebred Nubians registered as there are American Nubians; however, I'm not sure anyone would know who the American Nubians are unless someone were to look on their registration papers (so it's very difficult to say percentage-wise they don't often out show and out produce Purebreds). In the Wingwood Farm herd, for example, Karen has registered 142 American Nubian does over the last 30 years and 9 of those are finished champions; she's registered 202 Purebred does during that same time period and 15 of those are finished champions. And while she's registered 78 Purebred bucks, she's only registered 17 American Nubian bucks. In the Kori-Brook herd, Lennie Rae has registered only 9 Purebred Nubian does since 1995 and none of them are finished champions; on the other hand, she's registered 93 American Nubian does in that time period and 8 of them have finished their championships. She's also registered 29 of her American Nubian bucks and 3 of those have finished their championships; she's registered only 5 Purebred Nubian bucks. Perhaps American Nubians are more accepted on the East Coast than the West Coast?

With Alpines, Saanens, Toggs and Oberhasli it's routinely accepted that many weaknesses in these breeds have been improved by using American genetics. You can't say that with Nubians so breeders have no incentive to use American genetics. I do note that American Nubians comprise the third largest number of American genetics registered during the first half of 2012 (927) behind Alpines (2,024) and Saanen (1,267).


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

If a breeder believed what you are saying Caroline, that Americans are equal to or better than your purebreds, you would be using those does son's over your Purebred does, and have an all American herd. You are not, and that is exactly the point. 

I won't pretend to new people they should purchase American nubians when the breeders themselves won't. Many come to the forum and then find out after the purchase, what it even means that they have American does and bucks. I think it is dishonest not to explain to new folks what it means to have American Nubians, even if they don't feel it is accurate.

Imagine a herd at that level, you spoke of above, only selling and registering 17 American bucks...who could take a hit like that? Vicki


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't have time to do more, but all 3 of the junior herd sires at Wingwood Farms are Purebred bucks, one AI'd out of POTF Royal Marcus a purebred buck  She may have lovely American Nubians, but she certainly is not keeping bucklings out of those lines. Vicki


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## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Thank you both, Caroline and Vicki. Yes, I was "unschooled" about the American / Purebred when I bought these two new kids, but now that I do know, I will use the American buck on my American doe and the cross doe and her doe kid. This way, I will not muddy the waters with my purebred doe's lines. This just means that I will have American and Purebred Nubians. As long as I keep them separate, everything should go fine. I would like to try and show this little American doeling. She (IMO) is just beautiful! I don't know how well she will do, but maybe she will hold her own. Jill, my purebred, just doesn't have a great udder. Maybe next year she will blossom and I could show her, now that Ray has the information to send me the registration application. 

Since there is just no way that I can afford to show many goats, maybe one but not a bunch, I'm not going to fret over the prices I will or won't get from their kids. I know that all the bucklings are going to end up being sold for barbecue :sigh but the does should sell well enough, if I don't retain any. My purebred doe I will keep pure and try to improve her udder through her daughters. I can then breed outside my herd with another buck like Vicki's or even Lucille's Titus. I will buy another buck (pure) later to use to cover my pure bred doe and her daughters that I retain. I am only on 5 little acres, and I am not going to be able to keep too many because of the room. Now if I can just keep the deer out of my pastures, I'll be happy.


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## Greylady (Mar 28, 2012)

Just saying we have learned a lot on our pruchases too. But we love both breeds we have. And plan to keep separate.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

It seems to me that part of the reason you have a majority of American animals in the Swiss breed world is that there just weren't enough imported Swiss breed bucks to grow the gene pool and the ones that were available were not improving the breed. Nubians have a huge gene pool by contrast to Swiss breeds! And they are a very popular breed, which means the numbers don't drop so far that we _have_ to use American bucks.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Alpines are the second most popular breed...


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, they are  but the numbers are still way behind Nubians on a ratio basis. I own some Saanens now...talk about a small gene pool!


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> If a breeder believed what you are saying Caroline, that Americans are equal to or better than your purebreds, you would be using those does son's over your Purebred does, and have an all American herd.


I don't understand why a breeder would be using american sons over pb sons, and have an all american herd. If a breeder believes that americans and purebreds are equal, like Caroline does, wouldn't they have a herd of both?

There are many reasons why breeders choose bucks. Breeders have bucks for years. I don't think we should question the quality of does on the use of their sons, alone. Wins, titles and other things should be taken into consideration.

Nobody is arguing that they sell for less, or that it is harder to sell an american nubian buck. The argument is that it is unfounded, and needs to be changed.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

> Nobody is arguing that they sell for less, or that it is harder to sell an american nubian buck. The argument is that it is unfounded, and needs to be changed.


Well, I don't have a dog in this fight, as the saying goes, but agree whole heartedly with the above!

Just very glad that Saanen breeders have gone beyond the "only Purebreds will do" and breed for excellence, regardless (okay, there are some die-hard Purebred Saanen breeders, but I support and applaud what they do) of the designation. Have visited with more than a few Saanen breeders and most have admitted that they needed to "Go American" to move to the next level - size, strength, etc. The funny thing is, most of those Saanens go back at least 5-6 generations as Americans - so next to or no other breed in there - just fine animals that for one reason or another were designated American and stayed that way forevermore.

Perhaps what the Purebred Nubians have going for them is the regular and fairly intensive line-breeding of goats that results in consistent results (read: improvements). Personally, if I am buying a buck from a herd that I like, I like to see some linebreeding with animals that I love - or at least some relation to my does so that I can line-breed. Flame all you want, but I believe that within the next 5 years that American Nubians will become more and more accepted. And I think that is a very good thing. Better to buy/breed a better animal than to pay over valued prices "just because it is a Purebred".


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Who is going to change it Jamie when the American Nubian breeders themselves don't even change it in their own herd. They not only don't use American sons on their purebreds, most don't even use American sons on their own American does. 

It is the American Nubian breeder perpetuating the stereo type in their own herd that they are of little to no value. Does it not become unethical to then not warn new breeders about this when selling them their American animals?

As seen above, the American breeder is only keeping Purebred junior herd sires in her herd. Don't you think it is better to know going in that you will rarely sell a buck out of your does no matter how good she is, before you buy. That a large percentage of breeders even after they have had goats awhile won't even buy does? That is what this forum is for. I am not saying that this discrimination is right or wrong, I am just stating it is there, and until, ______________insert big name breeder here, buys an American Nubian buck and Americanizes her Purebreds to the betterment of her herd, it is just rhetoric. 

In Alpines, the last time we had this conversation, the majority of Alpine winners at nationals were in fact American Alpines, when this happens perhaps more will take note of American Nubians.

It's not personal, it is simply facts. Facts that are important. Vicki


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Camille, I will take that bet  Unless ADGA opens the herd books. And even then, Purebred breeders will simply have on their website that they were purebred before the herd books were opened, and will dual register with AGS....it is that divisive in Nubian's, always has been, will be until they prove themselves by at least using their own bucks. It is not as if there is this extensive list of American Nubian's to choose from like there is in American Alpines. Vicki


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## Qz Sioux (Feb 21, 2009)

Okay, now please forgive me for sounding stupid here (but I was always told a stupid question was an un-asked question), let me see if I'm understanding what is being said here.

First, I'm not sure what is meant buy "DDGA opening the herd books", but that isn't part of my question. What is being said here is that until someone is willing to use an American Nubian buck, to breed to a Purebred Nubian doe or does, and show them to championship, the American Nubian is going to continue to be "cheap"? In order for an American Nubian Buck to show his "worth" he needs to be shown to championship and pass that on to his offspring?

Please, please understand, I'm just trying to understand. I'm new to all of this and I want to understand what is what. Correct me if I'm wrong, but please explain why it is wrong.

I was reading the history of the Nubian breed last night, and I found it quite interesting that at one point, they were disqualified (way back when) if they had horns....hmmmm. Quoted from International Nubian Breeders Association, "In 1933 a rule against horned animals was adopted and was a hardship on the breed. Many great animals were discriminated against for being horned and were not used." http://www.i-n-b-a.org/nubians/nubian-breed-history


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Yes Suzie, I think Vicki is saying that small breeders can't afford to take the hit of lower prices and basically worthless bucks that showing/owning Americans can give you. So the big breeders need to remove the hit, by using American bucks as much or more than Purebred bucks. Since the big breeders don't do it widely, the small breeders can't do it easily. Big breeders do show American does, but apparently the bucks are not often sold or used because of the prejudice against Americans. We all breed to the best buck we can find, and it is easy to find amazing purebred Nubian bucks.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

My Nubian bucks are Americans. My does are both American and Purebred. When I was looking for a buck, I was looking for the best i could find and afford within drivable distance. The one I found was perfect for my herd and he was American. His kids were very correct and spittin' images of him. I lost him, and the kids, in the fire, before they were even weaned, but I got his 3/4 brother who is also an American. His first crop this year are wonderful! I can't wait to see them freshen next spring.

I have always had Alpines and Oberhasli mostly with just a few Nubian does (who were purebreds) but no Nub bucks. Maybe that's why I am not as concerned about the American/Purebred issue as those who have had Nubians all along.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I also don't think Americans will gain against the PB, not even if the herd books were open. There are simply too many nice PB, and too many Nubian breeders that will stay PB only. Other than 'big' (I'd rather use 'popular') breeders breeding their herds into Americans, the American breeders need to go out and actually prove their animals. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of CH and high appraising American Nubians out there, but I am sick of hearing the 'out produce' argument from American enthusiasts. Put you does on milk test if they are that impressive, because when you look at the Top Ten lists, you don't see Americans there...


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Okay, (laughing here) maybe not 5 years....perhaps 10? Not sure that outcross is the thing...more like Purebred Nubians that have somehow lost their Purebred status, so why quibble about Purebred vs. American? I would think that losing breed character (the nose, the ears) would make Nubian breeders hesitate to outcross... Just conversational for me, (reflecting on those who outcross their Obers with Alpines to get the improvements they want or even Toggs with their LaManchas) not meaning to upset those who are passionate about their Nubians.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Not even in 20, Camille! :lol I know of PB herds with worse breed character than some Americans, too, so that isn't it, either! I find myself conflicted on this topic- I love the open herd book for our LM, and vehemently oppose opening it for our Nubians  I think the Swiss breeds had to go to American for the improvements they wanted...we don't have to do that for Nubians.

I talked with a couple of judges at a show once, they were lamenting that in 'improving' the Toggs & Obers (most of your top animals are American) that the breed characteristics that made those breeds unique have been lost. Toggs and Obers as tall as large Nubians and Saanens...head shape changes, etc. At what point do we decide that every breed shoudl look exactly alike if we paint them black and put a sack on their heads? Are the differences in the dairy breeds only about color, butterfat, and personality?


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## dreamfirefarm (Nov 15, 2011)

I find the direction that this conversation has gone entertaining and informative. How one question morphs into a discussion not even associated with the original post. HMMMMM strange the way our minds work sometime. Carry on.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Our threads rarely stay on track


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

:rofl


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## cvalley (Apr 15, 2009)

Wow, just read this thread for the first time and did not expect the route of conversation! Good points on both sides of AM v PB. Understand some herds introduced AM into Nubian herd to improve udders quicker -- shape/production. At some point in lineage, do the AM so many generations out become PB? 
Think you need to look at your herd and make decisions for your stock but still inform clients about the difference between AM and PB.

As for the first topic presented about one testicle buck, we don't keep them -- wether (meat) - and do not repeat the breeding as with any other defect when breeding particular does /bucks. Some line crosses bring out serious faults. Toughest part is culling.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

No, once you have an American doe or buck their progeny stays American always, even bred to a Purebred doe, all the kids will be American and stay there. 

The point is, nobody is improving their purebred does with an American buck, not even those with American does themselves. So where does it leave the folks who purchase American Nubian's. With unsold bucklings, and fewer people who want your American Nubian doelings also. New folks can't take a hit like this. Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Nubians have a closed herdbook, so they never become Purebred again after being bred American. There are breeds who still have an open herdbook; I think Lamanchas are one. With those, you can still get to purebred after breeding to American.


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