# The case for high wide escutcheons in kid selection



## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

In selecting kids for purchase or for replacement animals it is very important to select those with high and wide escutcheons. The only way to get that udder up high in the rear is to select those kids with the least amount of fleshing in the escutcheon area. When udder comes in on those first fresheners you want the udder to rise as close to the vulva as possible. Width between the hocks, of course, give room for that beautiful mammary system to fit nicely between the legs.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

It would be great to see examples of good and bad choices.
Anyone have any doe kid rear view pics?
Visual learner here....
L


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## jcran (Feb 17, 2009)

Double dog dittoes here! We are new to dairy goats and while we picked our does up from a really nice herd (Kastdemur), I am pretty darned clueless.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I have a couple of pics of my doelings and would love them to be used as examples. :biggrin

The little black doeling is only a day old. The little brown is 3 wks.

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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

I can try to get a couple of pics of mine. I've heard that you want that escutcheon to come up to a high upside-down U shape instead of a sharp upside-down V shape. And the hocks wide with nice thighs that curve in up to the hip. Is this so?


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

here are three little doelings that turned into YUCK, Good, and Awesome. I'm not saying that's how they are lined up! no clues here : )
And that's just my opinion of course and I"M not an expert long timer like Tim, Vickie etc. I do have rear udder's of these girls freshened. But Later I'm out the door to farmers market!


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

I'm guessing the one in the middle is the awesome one. :biggrin


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

That was my guess, too!


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

In that last picture I can see the V verses the U too. The middle doe has the U and the other 2 are more V.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

And look how high it is and close to her vulva. That first doe looks like a Nubian. And those teats are pretty far under her body. I wonder if most of her udder was slung under there too?

OK, when are we going to learn what the lineup is?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

This is such a timely topic for me- I am raising 8 doelings as replacements this year. 
I would love for the pros to let me know what I am looking at. These are 12 week old does.
Thanks ! 
Lee

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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

I'm not a pro but in my experience, the height of the udder sttachment will be about as high as those little swirls of hair. BUT, as I said, I'm not a pro, and I haven't seen it all.


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## KingsCoGoatGuy (Dec 20, 2008)

I'll look back to see if I can find the picture of my doe before and after freshening. The wider the swirls are apart the more of an upside down U you should have.


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Ah. Good clue! Thanks. :biggrin


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

So we are going for width front to back but what is the downside of toeing out in front?
I know show people hate it but what about for working goats?
I have a couple of doe kids this year that are so wide in front but they tend to toe out.
Not always but some stances. Growth stage? They are otherwise good looking kids.
Well to me anyway-typical mom.
Lee


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

I can't find my photo of the first one : ( she freshened with a rear udder that was actually concave or sunken in it didn't protrude at all when viewed from the side and very LOW. I sold her. The second freshened with an Awesome and beautiful udder, but I sold her to Jonell as I hand milk and she was really hurting my carpal tunnel. I'm hoping to get an appraisal score on her. I have one fuzzy photo of her rear udder not the best sorry.








the third freshend nice ly enough, I have fuzzy photos of her hopefully I'll get new photo's of her this week a better rear udder shot. since I found the camera! LOL! She's the one of the three I still have. But still not as High as the middle girl was







milk in







Milk out!


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

:biggrin If I had been choosing which kid to buy I would have picked the middle one. But she looks like she maybe whas an Alpine? Can't see the ears. I don't raise Alpines. I raise Nubians. If she's a Nubian I'd scarf her up in a heartbeat! Sorry sweetie, but I wouldn't have bought that first Nubian. You poor darlin'. Carpal tunnel. You need a milking machine worse than I do.

Your #2 best there seems to have a nice udder there. 

Buckrun, I'm giving favor to the doeling in the top picture. Her teats look placed further back in the photo. What's her dam look like?


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

Here are a few of my last year doelings that are now yearling milkers

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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

I'll take the black one.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Linda they all all three Nubians, The 2nd best one is a purchased doe, the terrible one is out of a Saada doeling. When you have bottle kids shipped to you its sight unseen. I sold the whole line, But now Denise has her kid bred to a buck I hope would improve udders and her udder is kinda nice!


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Didn't mean to imply any disrespect to you. Sorry. I know, you don't always get to see before you buy. Sorry if I offended you. :ftinmouth

A lot of the time I just open my mouth to switch feet. :blush2


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Do you hold your mouth differently for right and left feet?
My MIL used to blame all mishaps on 'not holding her mouth right' when there was no other explanation.

The doe kids I posted are sisters. Their dam is a seriously long lanky gal with great capacity but very little in the way of foreudder. The sire is a definite step up and I am really anticipating these freshenings. I either have a basketball shape with lots of foreudder but no blending or a deficient fore.

I would like to know if the more definite visible line in the second photo means that that doe will have a stronger medial and it will be fun to keep track. They are both so long they look like they have an extra vertebra!

Here are the gals I was talking about toeing out- again sisters. They are very young- does this correct?
Their mom is FF and sire I have never used before. These are the first kids I have seen stand this way.
Lee

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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I just love these kind of threads.. dance:


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

They aren't loose in the shoulder are they? I'm not saying they are. I can't tell. There has to be some anatomical reason they are toeing out like that. Maybe they are just so long they are off balance a bit and getting used to balancing that long body. They seem long-legged too. I like nice long, fine-boned legs. 

My son didn't walk until he was 14 MO old.....Dr. said it was because he was too tall. It was harder for him to balance. 


Lovely heads and ears too, by the way!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

A really cool thing a breeder showed me years ago was to 'suspend' the kid with your hand between his legs (like you are checking for width between the front legs) get their weight off their feet, then look down at them, you should see shoulder, knee and toe facing forward, any toeing out was then not blamed on growth or bad hoof trimming.

Also look at the back feet in your photo, can't see the front, you are trimming way too much heal off, or else if they haven't had their feet trimmed at 12 weeks old yet, they are shallow in the heels, this is going to throw of everything and can become per manant when they don't walk on correct hooves when they are this age. It's so important to keep does, especially between birth and 2 years old, kept up, you can permanently spring pasterns by putting pressure on ligaments like this.

The nice think this photo shows Lee, is how long the cannon bones are in your does (length between the ankle on the front leg and the bottom of the knee, it is nearly exactly the length of the top bone....this is not a trait you can easily come by in Nubian's, most have much shorter cannon bones than this.

They also have perfect ear placement and look how wide they are between the eyes which is also seen in the muzzle, something I am lacking in my bloodline, width in that nose, because my nose carries so much breed character. The first doeling already has that really nice extension of her brisket. Two very very nice kids.

And yes you can look at these two kids in a few months in their gangly period and go yuck! Vicki


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

That's what I have to worry about too because I have a lot of breed character. Those noses are really Roman noses, but I have to worry about them being a bit narrow across the face. And do I have ears! I told Vicki I'd let her know if I ever figured out how to get milk out of those ears though. :rofl :rofl Now, with Tanya I got milk and ears, but her udder doesn't have enough rear udder. Her rear legs are set too narrowly and it rubs on her udder. Puts the squeeze on it, and she carries most of her milk in the lower part of her udder. I need to get you guys up a photo of Arwen, Tanya's daughter out of Lonesome Doe Lord Aragorn She's got more rear udder as a ff. It would be nice to hear comments on it, good or bad. 

I should get some rear pictures up of the doelings, if I can, too. It would be fun to predict and then see how they freshen.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Outright critiques are better done in Off Topic. It was different with Lee's photos as I don't even know what bloodlines she breeds. Critiques have a way of hurting feelings no matter how hard you try to be nice, so I try to just point out the obvious. vicki


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Yeah, I know. But if I'm going to really make improvements I need to hear things I may not like, for the good of my herd. And I'll try not to be very hurt if the appraisal isn't very nice. I mean, I think Gracie is built like a meat animal. It's strange that she would be with all those nice animals in her op 10 inbreeding list. However, when you break rules as I did to get Gracie, you never know what you'll get. and I have no qualms about putting her in the freezer if she grows out like a meat animal, even though she carries my herd name. I haven't even registered her yet. My first concern is breeding show worthy animals. If I need to cull, I need to cull. And other herd owners ought not to take offence if I breed something bad out of their bloodlines. THEY didn't make the cross to produce a cull. I did. The goal of all of us ought to be to breed animals which improve our breed. Yes? So lets all try not to wear our feelings on our sleeve and improve the dairy herds. Whadda ya say? :/

Everybody in agreeance say aye. :blush2 If we ought to do it off topic, that's fine. We can just post pictures without names too. Just number them, one, two, three, etc...


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

uh, Linda you didn't hurt my feelings I was just explaining. I would have never bought the doe kid that was shipped to me if I'ld seen her first, I hated her conformation on first sight and that fact never changed the highest she ever appraised (twice before I finally got her sold) was 73. I of course had to hold on to her untill I had more show quality milkers to milk, to replace her in the pail. Also was not going to give her away as she was a perfect sweet little angel in every other area, and she milked! But she does make a nice comparison shot in the doeling line up huh!


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

I am finding this thread very interesting. After staring at swirlies yesterday until my eyes corssed, I am planning on taking photos of each of my doelings, properly identify the photos and then when they freshen I will have some visual data. If the swirly idea is accurate, I have one little doeling that should have a fantastic rear udder. Time and photos will tell.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

This has been helpful to me. I would also like to take pictured to have some reference after freshening.


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## MiaBella Farm (Jul 22, 2008)

We plan on doing this too, before and after pictures...will be interesting to see what happens!


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes I love learning like this-and wish Tim would come in with more tips on escutcheon in kids too. I love his animals and respect his knowledge. This is a very helpful exchange.

Linda- the extra long ones are the rear view girls- the toe out does are not particularly longer than a good dairy doe. They do have a grandam with a prow for a chest so I guess that is where they get that bone structure. 

Lets revive this when we have freshened shots!

oh and-my lines are ancient- mixed and muddled. 
Mostly my own breeding till I got this new buck that made the toe out does.
I had to put him in the freezer tho- he was ballistic- bounced off the walls if you came near him so I have a crop of kids from him but he is no longer around. The kids all have GREAT temperaments and would rather be scratched than eat. What a relief. 
I sell home milkers so not too worried about much but longevity of udder- ease of kidding and health and temperament. Looks are not primary for my customers but good structure is good structure so I am anxious to learn it!
Lee


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Since our appraisals got very delayed till the end of August. Maybe I should line up the doelings I have two sets of 3 that are vitually the same breeding. On off topic and we all decide who I sell. : )


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah and then I will tell you I hate the 3rd one, and then PM you on how much you want for her  TEASING I kept 7!!!! I am not buying kids. Vicki


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

That's what we call dirty pool playing 'round here missy. Ya want the Sherriff ta come a-callin' on ya?  :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Hey dirty pool doesn't go on in goats, does it? lol!
that really nice one in the triplet photo is a Lonesome-grandoe btw


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## SALTCREEK_Nubians_Linda (Nov 13, 2007)

Well, Sherriff Linda hopes not anyway. :rofl :rofl

That information does not surprise me at all. Why haven't I gotten Lonesome Doe does sooner than this? :crazy I must be caprinelly challenged. :rofl :rofl :rofl


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