# CDT shot help



## Labyrinth Farm (Mar 27, 2011)

Okay this is Very unusual for me! I gave a CD&T shot to my kids three weeks ago and they are just now getting lumps under the skin where I gave them. Is this normal?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It would be unusual here also, the granuloma that forms is immediate. Vicki


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Does everyone give the CD&T subQ? I always have done it in the muscle, and do not get granulomas and don't seem to have any trouble, but am I doing it wrong? My kids get CD&T at disbudding (10-14 days old) then again at about 3 months old and then the whole herd gets CD&T once in early spring and once in late fall. All shots go in the neck muscle, and I haven't seen any swelling/scarring or distress.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Trysta by giving it intermuscular the granulomas are in the muscle so you cannot see them. It is customary to give them in the armpit Sub-q or I have done them in the rear skin flap in front of the rear leg. 

Unusual for here too Kade. Normally its within an hour or so I see them. when Tafari was disbudded I could tell his was too close to the elbow, its a nasty big lump...poor fella.
Tam


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Trysta said:


> Does everyone give the CD&T subQ? I always have done it in the muscle, and do not get granulomas and don't seem to have any trouble, but am I doing it wrong? My kids get CD&T at disbudding (10-14 days old) then again at about 3 months old and then the whole herd gets CD&T once in early spring and once in late fall. All shots go in the neck muscle, and I haven't seen any swelling/scarring or distress.


I thought the second shot should be given at 21 days after the 1st one to seal immunity? And then maybe again at 12 weeks or weaning? Why give whole herd shots twice per year? I have not heard of that.


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## Labyrinth Farm (Mar 27, 2011)

I am just wondering if these are going to be lumps that these goats have for life or if they will eventually go away? I gave them in the shoulder SubQ and I have never really had a problem before, this is a first!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I think they'll go away.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes they go away. I just think sticking them behind the leg where there is very little surface area, doesn't make a lot of sense for a vaccination you want the body to quickly 'absorb'. SubQ in goats is usually in point of elbow or out over the last rib where there is the most subq surface area. And learn to give IM shots, they are quick and painless and then you don't have to worry about this, well unless you give a 9 way or Covexin 8, than your pretty much stuck giving subq because it's 5cc.

We also used to give CD&T boosters pre breeding and pre kidding, our herd was at every show there was within about 4 hour drives, sometimes 4 and 5 weekends in a row...we were exporting and there was a lot of traffic in and out of goats via the dairy. Vaccination schedules have to fit the farm. Vicki


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

:yeahthat My daughter is the actual herd owner here and she loves to show, so indeed, that's why we do the twice a year shots (which just about comes down to pre-breeding for the fall-breeders and pre-kidding for our upcoming fall kidders and the other way around for spring). Also, we have been using bucks from another farm. The twice a year shots just build in some safety, because you never know what's going on at another farm and it always frustrates me how most shows threaten to send sick goats back, but in my experience they never do. I always tell my daughter: we take good care of them, you decide who goes to the show, we get health certificates for all those does, but still: who-ever is not smiling at us when we load the trailer is staying home. Shows are enough stress on a healthy happy goat, so we're not taking anybody who's doubtful.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation on CDT 2x/year. Makes sense.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Yep here too, It does make a difference in their health. When we started we were instructed only to give CD-T to does before kidding. After months of research through different sites and universities we found some very interesting and "this-makes-sense" results. After using the new management we would never go back to the other way.
Our bucks do well through rut and breeding season because of our Vacs and mineral boosts.

We USED to give shots in the rear site until we did the research, another thing we were instructed to do when we started. Now its in the armpit.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Mine sometimes get a 'lump' where the shot is given (subq) and then the 'lump' will go down and then form a granuloma after a few days (maybe up to a week...or longer ?? --I've never compared exactly how long). I notice it more on kids after their shots. They do seem to take a while to disappear. :/ I have a 2nd freshener that looks like she has a marble under her skin on her side and she had her vacs in Feb. 

I give CDT pre-kidding (Feb/March) and pre-breeding (Aug). Pre-breeding also covers LA (we go to host herd in Aug) and bucks going off property on lease.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I am still confused on why the vacs are given subQ. :down


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I think it is just preference. I HATE giving shots...getting better about it though. Subq is *easier* for me than IM...especially in the babies.  I'm seriously thinking of doing IM on the older goats, cuz I hate all the bumps. 

Does anyone give Pasturella(2cc) or Lysigin(5cc) IM? Or are they suppose to only be given subq? Maybe seems like quite a bit to give Lysigin IM.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

CD&T and most other vaccines are cattle labeled, they used to be labeled IM or subq. With the change in label to subq, because IM shots are putting a granuloma even into beef muscle and beef muscle is meat they could have sold if not having to cut out a granuloma, they moved the labels to subq only. When they changed the label I called, it was not a change in carrier just label so I still give them IM. Vicki


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Great, that settles it: I'm sticking to IM. I think subQ is a hassle, funny how that is different for others, apparently!


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## chell20013 (Feb 7, 2011)

I guess I'm going to have to learn how to do IM. I just finally got the guts to do shots--out of necessity. My husband's been in the hospital for a month. I have been doing subQ by just picking up a fold of loose skin in the hindquarters and putting it in, then rubbing till the lump goes down. Is there anything wrong with that? (I'm also talking about CD&T vaccination)


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I have gotten much better at IM by pinching the muscle first then injecting the needle. One of our vets showed me this and it works better for me. I still prefer sub-q.
Tam


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I have always considered shots in the neck muscle the easiest for many reasons: a good hold on your 'victim', without them being able to hurt themselves or you, it's fast, results in the least stress on the animal (my opnion, of course) and it's a standard, easy to find spot. You can give shots anywhere in your barn/pen/pasture this way and do not need a goat stand if you're able to 'manhandle' most of your herd (I get in trouble with our 1 year old heifer, who manhandles me, but I can deal with even my biggest doe and good size calves) Maybe you could ask your vet to do it with you the first time?

I grab the doe with my left arm behind the head and over the neck, holding him/her in front of me against my legs, then inject the vaccine or medicine with the syringe in my right hand in the center of the 'triangle' that is made by my left arm, the edge of the shoulder blade and the bottom-line of the neck, holding the needle downwards at a slight angle (straight in at a 90 degree angle you'd hurt the animal, might miss the muscle and might hit things you don't want to hit, while too parrallel to the animal's neck you'd also miss the muscle, going in almost subQ!).

Don't laugh, but I was actually holding my daughter's large stuffed toy goat on my lap while I wrote this, to make sure I'm telling it correctly. You know, it's one of those things you do all the time, and then when you want to explain it clearly you go....hmm, how DO I do that?? 

For goats I use a needle considerably smaller and shorter than for calves (16x1 1/2), because the animal is smaller, and, forgive me, but they're whimps (mostly, anyway). So I try to use a 20x3/4, 20x1 at the max for everything except Penicillin, which usually wont get out of that skinny needle, so I go with an 18x3/4 for Pen. and you'd need to do that for all 'thicker' meds, especially when it's cold!

I hope this is helpful, and again: if I'm scared to do something at first, I try to do it with the help of the vet or an experienced animal person first! Like disbudding and tattooing! How scary to do that was that at first and now you're probly a pro at it!


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## Red Mare (Apr 23, 2011)

I also only give IM here unless I am doing "lazy" fluids on a down goat or horse. 
It's interesting to me to see what is scary and what isn't to other goat people.


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## Rosesgoats (Apr 22, 2011)

It is very painful to give amounts over 5cc IM. This is too much liquid to force into the muscle mass so I always give the larger doses SQ and the smaller doses IM. I also try to stay away from IM shots because dairy goats don't have a large muscle mass in their hind ends like a cow or horse would. Hitting bone or a nerve while doing an IM injection is extremely painful to the animal so you want to stick them where you can avoid that problem.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes those who move to Covexin 8 or other 9 ways do have to figure out how to give those shots to their young stock. 5cc IM in adult stock isn't that much. Vicki


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