# Baby refusing bottle/not taking milk well



## fmg

My Tempo doeling is not taking her bottle very well...she will either just eat a little bit of it, or sometimes refuses it altogether. I have to put her mouth on the nipple, and she will eat a little, maybe suck a little, but mostly just swallows what she has to because it's in her mouth. She is 3 weeks old, and was eating fine when I picked her up. I gave her baycox and valbazen when I first got home with her, and have given a couple of doses of probios, one tonight that she was all too happy to suck down/slurp off the syringe. She is chipper otherwise, and temp was normal tonight when I checked it. The milk is warmed to body temp. I have a little pan with grain and alfalfa pellets in her pen and just put a little bucket of water in with her. Is there anything else I could/should try? Is she just stressed from the move? It was a heck of a trip! Oh, just thought of b-complex, maybe I will give her a dose in the morning.


----------



## NWgoats

Stress can cause acidosis. Give her some baking soda. My bottle kids
all get a pinch of soda in one bottle daily.


----------



## hsmomof4

In addition to the stress of the move, I find that my bottle babies are very sensitive to changes in the temperature of their bottle and that they prefer their bottles on the warmer side. Maybe ask how warm her bottles were before?


----------



## swgoats

Is the nipple giving a good flow? I use X cut baby bottle nipples, so it is swallow or drown when one gets socked in their mouths. I've never had a hungry baby refuse.


----------



## fmg

The thing is, she was fine drinking the milk when I first picked her up...odd. I do have a little bit left of the milk she had when I got her; maybe the taste is better...they used a pasteurizer, whereas I pasteurize on the stove, so maybe she is disliking the taste. I will also try the baking soda. The nipples flow fine-the other baby is drinking just fine out of them. I have to go into town today, so I may try getting a different nipple, to see if it's also a texture issue. She had different nipples than me at her old place. But like I said, she drank fine when I first got her, so I dunno. We'll see what works I guess!


----------



## fmg

I really hope this doesn't mean she is going to be a picky eater her whole life! I dislike picky goats...


----------



## swgoats

Maybe get some baking soda in her and let her get good and hungry before trying again. Hunger helps if they are being picky.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

Bo-se and more E....Bo-se and more E...always! And run a fecal. Vicki


----------



## NWgoats

Also be sure she is pooping. My last pair of bottle kids did that
when they were plugged up. Gave them a little enema, got them
unplugged and they were fine.


----------



## fmg

She is not tender in the abdomen at all like I would think she would be if she were constipated, but I will give her bo-se, see about getting a stool sample, and if that doesn't work, I'll try the enema. If she is still refusing tonight, I'll tube her little butt-I definitely don't want to loose this stinker for all the trouble I went to get her! Of course, her worthless penmate saanen to-be wether, is doing just fine!


----------



## NWgoats

Mine weren't tender either. They acted completely normal other than
the bottle refusal. Pretty sure a good clean-out never hurt anyone.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

They will simply stop eating if they are constipated, they then get dehydrated, can't regulate their body temp and fail to thrive. Newborns poop after nearly every colostrum bottle, and usually after every milk bottle, if they aren't, use a suppository. Please do ot wait until it's a crisis, you always want to be in the mode of prevention, because a suppository will do not harm. Vicki


----------



## fmg

This afternoon, she was excited for her bottle, and went to town on it...for a second. I gave her the bo-se and tried an enema, with nothing. Before the enema, I tried getting some poo for a fecal with no luck. 

I palpated her abdomen and found a mass! I think she maybe ate a bunch of straw on her way home.  Had my father-in-law palpate her too, and he felt the mass as well. It is about 1/2-2/3 the size of a golf ball, and kind of oval-ish shaped. I tubed her with mineral oil-60cc per him, and hope that breaks it up! I am very worried...I so hope this doesn't turn into a very expensive trip for nothing.  I will call Lauren for advise in the morning if I don't see any improvements. I hope I didn't wait too long to take action...


----------



## smithurmonds

Did she pass a good amount of poop when you gave the enema? That mass could be poop if she's constipated.


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas

I had a 2 wk old bottle buckling like that once. He'd eagerly go for the bottle for one or two seconds, but then pause...slip off...and quit. To this day, I'm not quite sure what was up with him, but he came around with frequent pinches of baking soda into his mouth, bos-e, vitamin B, an antibiotic (I think I had him on penicillin) and keeping him very warm. I may have also started tubing minimal electrolytes into him just to make sure he was hydrated. It took 3-5 days, but he did bounce back completely.


----------



## fmg

She didn't pass anything with the enema-the mass is still there. I think it is too high in her intestinal tract to get with the enema. It is dorsal and pretty far cranial in her abdomen. I really hope it's just poop! I gave her some sq fluids, b-complex (all I have is the fortified, is this okay?), and banamine last night.

Just got off the phone with Lauren...it may just be a kidney that I'm palpating. I sure hope so. I might bring her in for an x-ray...of course this is Sunday...ho hum. Another possibility with kids is intussusception. Let's hope that's not her problem, because the only treatment is surgery. She may just have a GI upset...going to give her a round of penicillin to see if that helps. Boy, I hope this baby survives! She drank about 5 oz this morning.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

'She was fine and eating when I picked her up.'

I think that is key. Along with 'I tried getting some poo for a fecal with no luck'. She has to start pooping to be able to drink more. 

I would be doing subq fluids and keep tempting her with milk, suppositories, and oral vitamin E. How about Kero with her bottles, at least it would cause diarrhea, better than what is going on. Get an appointment to have her looked at. vicki


----------



## Caprine Beings

And if you do not have Karo use a bit of brown sugar. Molasses is too rich for littles. 
Tam


----------



## fmg

With all that oil I tubed last night, she's sure to have diarrhea soon. While I was outside getting some syringes, she pooped a bunch, it's all over her back legs. I have never been so happy for a sloppy mess! I offered her a bottle and she drank 1/2, about 10 oz. I hear a lot of gurgling in her tummy. SQ fluids last night. I will keep offering milk frequently today, and call vet tomorrow first thing.


----------



## fmg

Do young goat kids vomit? I know that most dogs we have seen with either an intussusception or blockage that they can't get moved, will get diarrhea and vomiting; it's the response the gut has to not being able to move past that point.


----------



## Theresa

It sounds like she was constipated. I would keep an eye on her, make sure she continues to poop. As long as she continues to eat, and poop, I bet she will be fine.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

Yes goatlings can vomit because three of the chambers of their stomachs are not working yet. Once older they are only able to sling the contents of the rumen. Vicki


----------



## fmg

Okay, well, at least there hasn't been any of that.

She just pooped some more and took another 1/2 bottle. Should she have any more mineral oil to keep her guts moving? I will give her a little more fluids sq later, since she now has diarrhea (from all the oil). I've never been happier to clean goat poop! I do think she was constipated.


----------



## doublebowgoats

So glad she is doing better! I wouldn't give her anything else at this point but milk.


----------



## Theresa

I would not give her anymore mineral oil. You can add a little kero syrup to her bottle if you notice she is not pooping or use an enema.
Theresa


----------



## lorit

So glad she is doing better for you.


----------



## fmg

Oh me too, Lori, you have no idea! I much prefer her messy backside to the not eating! I gave her some more SQ fluids tonight and b-complex. I'm not sure if i said this already, but I ended up not doing the penicillin, she pooped and started eating after I pulled it up, and before I gave it...so I just stuck the syringe in the fridge. I will give it if she relapses...so far so good, knock on wood! I'll keep her inside for a couple more days to keep a close eye on her. Her and her little friend are in my biggest crate in my living room.


----------



## lorit

Getting spolied now, huh?  Well, one good thing from all this is that you and she will be well bonded.  Andif there is anything I have learned from Dreams is that if they are huge, they better WANT to do what you want them to, cuz there ain't no making them.


----------



## fmg

Oh yeah! Is she still giving you trouble? I should send you a pic of my stanchion I have that sits on the ground...maybe you could build her a "special" milkstand.


----------



## fmg

Well, she's refusing her bottle this morning...I'm calling the vet.  Maybe the mineral oil moved whatever is stuck in there, but didn't get it out. I never saw anything that should have caused a problem for her to pass...


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas

Good idea. She's precious and worth the vet call.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

It can also be a mass of tapeworms. Vicki


----------



## fmg

You would think the valbazen would have got that? The vet didn't feel a mass...and didn't have much to say, other than keep up the penicillin that I started this morning, and tube if she won't eat. My tube wasn't working right (I didn't have a cath tip syringe, so tried cutting it, and that didn't work very well either), so I went to a different vet (out of the 2 vet offices in my town, neither had red feeding tubes-no idea how they live without them!). 

It's been a long day, I had to help a friend with a doe kidding a dead, very stuck kid, which ended in putting the doe down and not finding any live ones, sigh, and another friend that needed help learning to tube a newborn, and I just finally got back home. My kid is still lively as ever, thank goodness.

Anyway, the vet tech at the other vet clinic suggested possibly CD...I have the antitoxin, and will probably give it to her. Is anaphalaxis common with this? Reading the warning label freaking me out. Another suggestion she had was to give the penicillin orally as well as SQ...same dosage for both...anybody do this for bad gut stuff?


----------



## fmg

Oh, and vet says, pooping= no intussusception.


----------



## goatkid

I really doubt that your doeling has CD (entero) because in kids that young, she wouldn't be lively. She'd be in pain and likely dead by now. The C&D antitoxin can prevent whatever is going on with her from evolving into entero. I've gotten fussy babies to eat by giving probiotics.


----------



## fmg

I've been giving her probios. She LOVES them! She wants to lick/suck them off the tube! That's what I figured on the CD. I will look up what other gut ailments/signs, ecoli, salmanella, etc. There is definitely something bothering her tummy. She sucks the bottle for a second, then clenches her jaw and tummy makes gurgle noises. I don't think it's just her being picky-like I said, she ate fine when I first got her. I really hope the pen takes care of it!


----------



## goatkid

This is exactly why I've been afraid to buy expensive kids from well known breeders as infants. I was way more comfortable buying Parlay from the spotlight sale as an older kid. I wasn't meaning to indicate that your kid is simply being picky. My experience is that they are picky when something is going on with their tummy. The probios helps them feel better and they eat better. You might try spoon feeding her some plain yogurt. I did that once with a doeling who had tummy issues and she was eating normal in a couple days.


----------



## MF-Alpines

fmg said:


> Oh, and vet says, pooping= no intussusception.


Hope she gets better for you, Nancy.

Had to look up "intussusception". That was too big of a word for me.

Sorry, I'm no help.


----------



## fmg

I'll have hubs pick up some yogurt on the way home...I wonder when he'll get tired of picking goat things up for me on his way home?  And, yes, it scared me to get a baby, too. I wish it weren't so expensive to have had her boarded until she was older...


----------



## fmg

I really appreciate EVERYONE here, offering words of advice and/or encouragement. You guys are the best! Thank you so much!


----------



## dragonlair

Maybe a bit of banamine before she eats to calm her belly?


----------



## fmg

That's probably a good idea...I'll try that at her next feeding, thanks! The teeth grinding has stopped, so maybe we are making a bit of progress with the antibiotics...I sure hope so!

She is still same old, same old. Maybe she likes the extra attention from being tube-fed. (Not really, she fights it pretty good.)


----------



## fmg

That didn't work either. Guess I'll just keep tubing her, and if there's no improvement, I will call the vet again tomorrow.

The doeling is in the house in a crate...she will be 4 weeks old the day after tomorrow and is only receiving milk for food (no solids). Is this a problem? Do I need to get her something solid to munch, or is she okay until she is better? I think she is pretty stable, other than not eating, so I can put her back in her pen with some hay to try out if needed. Her temperature is still normal.


----------



## Laverne

Has she had a worming with Quest wormer at all since she's been born? Maybe she's supposedly not been with adults to pick up worm eggs from them, but never know how things can be picked up.


----------



## fmg

She has not...I bought some just in case the other day. I will try and get a fecal tomorrow. Just emailed Lauren and she says I should try taking her off milk and giving just electrolytes/sq fluids for a day or two to give her guts a rest, so long as she is stable, which she is. She may have a yeast overgrowth, or an ulcer. She suggested yogurt or hefeweizen as better probiotics than the probios. Also letting her eat some clean dirt, some real food (but not grain) and water. Stealing a cud was another suggestion...I will try that too. Hopefully something will give, and not her will to live! I will give the Quest if the other things don't work.


----------



## Laverne

If the fecal is clear are the worms actually laying eggs right now.


----------



## fmg

I just told Lauren about giving her the valbazen and baycox when we got home; guess I hadn't mentioned that before. She says that with her already stressed GI tract from the move and then adding those, may have put her over the edge. She said there should be no reason to give a 3 week old who is isolated from adults valbazen, which is hard on the GI tract...I hope I haven't ruined my sweet little, expensive baby. I should have done a fecal on her, or let her adjust to her new surroundings at least, before shoving meds into her. (And she doesn't like the idea of using illegal drugs-Baycox, because FDA will not license drugs that are being used illegally...will probably just put further restrictions on them. I know what she's saying here, but I dunno...). Well, this really stinks...going to go pick up some sucralfate from the local vet office today to give her, let her GI tract rest today-no milk, just fluids-and see how it goes. I'm pretty bummed right now...I hope we can pull her through this.


----------



## swgoats

Electrolyte is supposed to be given between milk feedings. I don't ever pull milk from a baby. At three weeks old she has no real need for solid food of any kind. Stealing a cud isn't going to do anything IMHO. That's for the rumen, but milk doesn't go in the rumen. She's expressed discomfort with milk feedings, so that says to me something is hurting her stomach. Maybe some Keopectate would soothe the stomach? I'm surprised she's still not eating. This is an odd case.


----------



## swgoats

I don't believe for one minute you did this with normal three week prevention protocol. Moving can just be stressful sometimes.


----------



## Trysta

I just wrote a long reply and it didn't post. Testing if this posts and if so, I'll try it again....
Marion


----------



## Trysta

Okay, here goes.

I understand you now have a 4 week old kid on hand in your house that still does not take a bottle, but seems to be out of immediate danger for starvation/dehydration/hypothermia. First of all, good job for keeping her going. With a tiny kid you have no choice but to keep tubing, because they have no reserves and will die the moment you start skipping feedings. Same with the medication you tried: with tiny kids, even if you are not 100% sure what you are dealing with, you have to treat and keep trying, because again, this kid will otherwise die before you do figure it out. So you did do everything right. That said, I believe that right now you are at a point where you have to turn this kid around, otherwise she will never thrive as a 'real' goat. I also believe you are no longer dealing with the original reason why she didn't drink: very likely you are now dealing with a combination of reasons, caused by your treatment of the original cause.

Here's what I would do. Buy a top quality electrolyte with probiotics in it. These are usually the 'gelling-type' electrolytes. Ask your feed store and realize that this type of electrolyte is the expensive kind. But they work and are nutritious plus help the intestines. Assuming you are still on 4 feedings (or more?) per day, start with feeding #1 and give the kid the elctrolyte only (NO MILK mixed in or fed later) in a bottle with a large enough hole so you can squeeze a bit in her mouth. That way she gets the taste of it, even if she doesn't suck immediately. Be patient, take some time to see if she will start drinking, but if she doesn't, do not tube her. Discard the electrolyte (always make fresh at around 104/105 F), and wait until the next feeding. At feeding #2 do he same thing. Offer the electrolyte (and again we are talking the good stuff with probiotics her, not the lemonade-with-attitude) in a bottle, take time, hope she starts sucking, but if not, don't tube. Again at feeding #3, and I sure hope she gets the message by now, but if not, tube the electrolyte. Not milk, not anything else, just this electrolyte. The reason why you are doing this is because all the treatments this kid has received, while necessary, have also been bad for her intestines (antibiotics, oil, all bad stuff, messing up the balance and bacterial activity in her intestines). Also, the tubing by now may have irritated her throat and esophagus, therefore making sucking and swallowing painful, plus she's just not used to it! The reason why you can get away with just electrolytes and no milk and even skipping feedings with this kid, is because she is NOT in immediate danger of dehydration, like a scouring kid would be (then you do feed both milk and then electrolytes in between milk feedings, different problem, different protocol!). Anyway, by feeding #4: if she did drink the electrolyte herself by feeding 2 and/or 3, you can put her back on milk, but if she didn't go electrolytes one more time, again in the bottle. I sure hope this approach helps.

Also, and this is an important part of 'treatment' too, she needs to start feeling like a goat in order to start acting like one. I am not kidding here. The fact that she is out of hypothermia danger, and able to get around, means that she needs to be with her peers, instead of in a box in the house. I send even the weakest kid of to my kidshed as long as they can keep warm and aren't trampled. They will get going so much faster in a group of peers than boxed up! We always think pampering is the best, but for animals it doesn't always work that way. I only keep kids in the house if they are too cold or are so weak that they are laying out flat (only had that once, kept that kid in a box for 24 hours, and kept setting it on her feet and laying it upright until she was good enough to lay with the other kids).

I hope this helps! Good luck!

Marion


----------



## fmg

There is another kid in the large crate with her-the only other kid here right now (got from a friend, because I don't have any kids yet). I am going to put her in a pen outside today, I just need to go make sure it is clean and safe (it held a pig for a few months)...I don't really want to put her in the "newborn" pen I had her in before, for one it doesn't hold her well, and she's just too old for it. She could stand to eat some dirt, etc, anyway. 

I will try what you are suggesting, thanks so much, Marion. I have to run into town for the sucralfate anyway, so I'll look at what the co-op has. I did just give her some SQ fluids. I think she does need some rest from all the meds, etc., she has been getting lately. I'm stopping the penicilin too. If sucralfate and rest from milk doesn't help, I will give her some kao.


----------



## fmg

The sucralfate should also help if she has an irritated esophagus...


----------



## lorit

Nancy,

I have nothing to offer in the way of advice but I sure do hope she pulls thru for you. Hopefully she is a little fighter. 

Sent Robin's hat today.


----------



## fmg

Thank you, Lori. I sure hope so, too. So far, she seems to have a strong will to live...she is still full of spunk! Robin will be happy to have his hat back...let me know what the postage was and I can send you a check.


----------



## lorit

I'll bet he will - it's lots colder there than here.  Don't worry about the postage - no big deal at all. 

What did you end up naming her? The spunk is good.


----------



## fmg

Picked up sucralfate and my vet gave me some digestive herbs to give her too...he is really into herbal stuff...figure it probably won't hurt. Her penmate is starting to have the same issue now, though.  What on earth could this be?? I picked the other kid up the day we got home, 1 week ago today, and he was 2 days old at the time.


----------



## fmg

Haven't named her yet. I never am good with naming them...it often takes me up to a month to think of one sometimes! Maybe her barn name could be spunky though.


----------



## fmg

I might have to see about getting her to the Caine Center. It is really the only thing I can think to do if there isn't any improvement...


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

All this oral information is making it so that she will not be able to curd her milk, and zero of it has any calories in it, other than sugar for her to grow, for her to control her body temp.

Thousands of kids are flown to new homes, thousands get wormed and put on prevention because of the stress of the move. I just love it when breeders make blanket statements to relatively new folks and tell them all that they did wrong, but what is the advice she is giving for you to try...crickets.

If anything the dieoff of tapes all at once, was the initial cause of this. She needs milk, milk and more milk. If she is dehydrated, tube her, give any other fluids subq or IV (if she gets that bad).

And start her on a sweet feed, something she loves and alfalfa hay. At this point if she wants to eat let her. She has to get outside in the fresh air and any sunshine you have, she can not live and thrive in a kennel in the house. Vicki


----------



## fmg

Yes, the kids are outside now. I'm going to bring them in at night, out during the day for now, until they are totally adjusted to the outside temps again. She was starting to not take milk just a bit on the ride home...initial thought was stress, but then got worse after we were home. And what of the other kid, who is now starting to show same symptoms at a little over a week old? If this is something contagious, I need to find out right away, since I have my first kids due in 9 days (but probably less than that, it's a ND doe). So, I will call Caine in the morning, see if they have advice, and/or can refer me to a vet closer by that can help me out. Everyone is pretty perplexed. She isn't taking the bottle of electrolytes anyway, so I'll just keep up the SQ's...get her back on milk tomorrow morning, or earlier if she doesn't remain stable.


----------



## goatkid

I do hope Caine can help you. I'm glad you are putting the goats outdoors in the day. I think part of the problem, especially when you mention that the little wether is now starting the same thing, is that they are not getting sufficient exercise spending all their time in a crate. When they don't get exercise, I believe they don't digest their food/milk properly. I've seen this happen with my house babies. I trust much of what Lauren is telling you. She's both a breeder and a vet. My vet has also told me that infant kids don't have worms. I also think that being able to eat dirt and hay should help.
I once had a baby goat named Isis. When she was just about two weeks old, she went off the bottle. What I noticed was that she started eating dirt and nibbling grass. She would also drink water from a small tub. I gave her yogurt and as much milk as she would take from the bottle. I also gave soda. I was new at goats and still did not feel comfortable tubing her. She was a homebred mutt goat (Boer, Spanish, La Mancha). She eventually was drinking a normal amount of milk and grew into a huge goat who had several litters of kids.


----------



## fmg

The kid was in a crate on the way home (so maybe that started it, though we did let her out to play, and in the house do, too)...then in a pen. She moved into the house a few days after being here, when she didn't want to eat anymore. You're right though they really do need the exercise. I hope my story ends up like yours with Isis.


----------



## fmg

The doeling has diarrhea now...not real squirty watery, but the kind of mucousy gelly diarrhea. Gave her some more fluids SQ and tubed a lil' milk in her...she's still not interested in nursing. The buckling drank decently well. Will see what happens in morning and call Caine...


----------



## happy vagabonds

I hesitate to suggest this since you already have so much going on... but how about some Pepto? I don't remember the dosage off hand, (I seem to remember something like 6cc for a 8-12 week old doeling, and then readministering a few hours later) but I remember it being very helpful for Doughnut when I was having problems with her when she was a baby. It doesn't take much and it turned the diarrhea around very quickly.

Warm, healing thoughts to you and your baby.


----------



## Trysta

Please be careful, if you use everybody's advise you will mix and double dose. Kao and pepto have the same effect, you will be messing with stomach pH if you do all of this. My tip on electrolyte never was going to work while you were still tubing. This goatling will never live if you will not find a way to get off tubing her. At 4 weeks old she should be drinking and even eating grain. I think some people read this post and don't realize how old the kid is. You can't tube as a system, it's an emergency not a feeding program. Like I mentioned: her intestines are messed up because of all the stuff and one med after the other going down her throat. The electrolyte for a day in a non-dehydrated animal is fine and gives her intestines a chance to get back to whatever stage she is in now. her own body doesn't even now what's going on anymore. It's impossible for an animals system to react if we keep on putting meds and over the counter stuff in it's system that are the same (overdosing) or even acting against each other. You are not helping her like this. Sorry. My opinion. Next vet/advisor is coming up with the next great idea, which may have worked by itself, but not after everything is already completely confused. Give her a chance to settle.


----------



## fmg

I was not continuing to tube her with electrolyte, but I tried and she was not at all interested in it from the bottle. I have not, to this point, given her any kao or pepto. 

Tues evening, until right before bed last night, she did not get anything but LRS, oral electolytes (which she did not drink), probiotics, and the sucralfate. Last night, she was getting a little bit dehydrated, I saw her pee and it was a little dark, plus she busted with diarrhea, so I gave her some more sq fluids and tried and tried to get her to take a bottle, once again, but couldn't, so gave her just a little bit of milk via OG tube. She was outside all day with hay and water. I don't want to give her grain with her messed up intestines. And, though it could be a coincidence, the other baby is starting with the same symptoms, so I'm thinking this must be something contagious.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com

What is the temp on these two kids? And have you tasted the goatsmilk that you are feeding them?


----------



## fmg

Their temperature has been totally normal...just temp'd the doeling- 102.2. Just tasted the milk, it's fine. It could possibly be that milk they had before was off...? But I don't really think so.

I just called my local vet again. He is going to get me some Baytril or Amoxicillin, I'm doubtful, but maybe it will help. The doeling looks a little thinner than she has...I just hope she doesn't go downhill. So far, both still pretty chipper...doeling maybe not quite as active as she has been, but still runs around. I am almost tempted to put the buckling down and have necropsy done.
:down


----------



## Ashley

How does the diarrhea smell? What if the baycox didn't work for some reason, like it was old or the dose wasn't correct? There is a certain smell to cocci, not an extremely strong one but it is more than just a poop smell. 

Did we get a fecal?


----------



## fmg

I'm trying to get fecal, but her poo is so liquidy now. The buckling doesn't have diarrhea, so maybe I can get something from him, but would he show symptoms of coccidia at a week and half old?


----------



## Ashley

He wouldn't show anything on a fecal because he won't have adults to be laying eggs.

I would do a fecal on the doeling anyway, even if it's diarrhea. If it's clean it won't tell you anything because it may be clean because of the excess water in the solution. But if it's positive, it's positive.


----------



## Trysta

fmg said:


> She was outside all day with hay and water. I don't want to give her grain with her messed up intestines. And, though it could be a coincidence, the other baby is starting with the same symptoms, so I'm thinking this must be something contagious.


I am sorry to be the nagger again, but this is wrong also: a 4 week old kid is not yet a ruminant and should NOT get any hay. She SHOULD have access to grain, as much as she wants.
Marion


----------



## fmg

I wasn't expecting her to eat the hay, just nibble and taste it, like most any kid would that age. I do want her to have grain to grow, but not if it is going to upset her digestive system worse. If she has a build up of acid, grain will only aggrivate it worse. This kid will be on milk an extended period of time after this...if we make it through.

I got fecals on both kids and let the vet look at them. They BOTH, the 4 week old, and the 1.5 week old, have coccidiosis according to the vet. I am very surprised that would show up in a week-old kid, but that's what they saw...they sent me with some corid and a product called Primor, which is a sulfur antibiotic, I think something like SMZ-TMP. I am also to give them both some more banamine tomorrow, and if they get depressed, some subq fluids. I don't know what to think about the Baycox not being effective. The bottle has been kept in my house since it started getting cold outside, but maybe it got too warm in the summer, even though it was stored in the barn, which is usually a pretty moderate temperature (it is buried in dirt). There is no expiration date on the bottle itself, but I bought it last summer, so it shouldn't be bad yet, unless it was already old when I got it.


----------



## swgoats

Well, yay, at least we have an answer! I'm not surprised about the coccidia. I'm planning to start my prevention earlier this year. I felt last year 3 weeks was pushing it in my herd with the kids born in warmer weather and living with adults. I felt it was really a bigger threat than worms. You've been having warmer than normal temps, right? So it makes sense. No clue on the Baycox.


----------



## swgoats

It seems like it was Lee who explained last year about how Baycox works. She might be able to shed some light, or look through the old threads. It seems like there was a reason to need to use it again, but I just can't remember.


----------



## fmg

Last year, we had warmer than usual weather...this year, we had a lot of good super cold hard freezes. I know the ground is still frozen down below the first little bit, because of my friend just had to dig a hole for that doe (I would have helped, but was dealing with the other stuff..she did have a helper at least...). I cannot say for sure that it is the same where this doeling came from. They have milder weather, and it was raining the whole time I was there.


----------



## fmg

I'm really still not entirely convinced. I mean, if I have a kid that is having issues with coccidia at 1 week old, does that not indicate that I shoudl be giving prevention at a week old? That seems rather young...

Time really got away from me today, so I am definitely going to call Caine Center tomorrow, see what they think...if there's anything else we might want to test for. Sigh. Every time I stop at the vets office it is like $40, really adds up when you are making daily trips...


----------



## Ashley

I've had kids have symptoms for cocci at 1.5 weeks old. It was the first thing that came to mind for me.

I don't know how cocci could be on a fecal in one that age though?

I think the baycox says sometimes it will need to be dosed twice?


----------



## Ashley

Ok the directions are to give a second dose in 36 hours, that's what I was thinking of. Of course, that's for horses.


----------



## Laverne

Goat Medicine says that "clinical coccidiosis may develop within one to two weeks of ingestion of a large dose of infective sporocysts". So if a kid sucked on a contaminated teat, (they are all contaminated) then yes they can have symptoms, which my kids also had, by two weeks old. I dosed Corid then, which solved the problem.

I am curious if the vet said the number of cocci was high on the fecal exam.


----------



## swgoats

Yes, I'm planning to start Corid at 1.5 weeks for my dam raised kids. I do think they pick it up that quick. I saw milk symptoms in some of the later born kids last year right at three weeks, so I felt I was already behind when I started with them. No bad cases, but enough to make me think that this year I would start at 1.5 weeks.


----------



## fmg

The vet did not have that much poop to work with, so pretty sure he just did a float with what was there...so no exact count. He said a "moderate amount" of cocci. He also checked for bacteria, and didn't see anything indicating a bacterial overgrowth.


----------



## fmg

If you are doing 1.5 weeks, will you do every 1.5 weeks, or start at 1.5, then go every three?


----------



## Laverne

I think the 21 day cycle, counting from the first day of dosing will, as proven with Vicki's protocol, work well.


----------



## swgoats

That's what I was planning every three weeks, just starting earlier.


----------



## Tracy in Idaho

Trysta said:


> I am sorry to be the nagger again, but this is wrong also: a 4 week old kid is not yet a ruminant and should NOT get any hay. She SHOULD have access to grain, as much as she wants.
> Marion


Huh. So why do my 2 week olds chew cud?


----------



## Trysta

Initially the abomasom is the only stomach in action and when a babygoat drinks milk it goes straight to the abomasom. As the kid begins to eat grain, the rumen starts developing, but for the first few weeks the rumen isn't nearly developed enough to digest forage. Also, at that age the kid has a limited capacity and needs it's nutrients in concentrated form, forage is not concentrated. Your two week old kids may look like they are chewing cud, but they aren't yet. Young kids may nibble on hay, but it's actually best to offer milk and grain only first and introduce the hay later. Vicki posted something about this a few months ago, too, but I don't remember the post.


----------



## fmg

I understand the reasoning, but I'm still not entirely convinced that ruminant information, taken from cows, as far as grain/hay issue goes, completely applies to goats. I usually do a combo of hay and grain for babies. They are not eating a lot of either thing at this age, mine aren't anyway, just nibbling and trying things...I think the milk is probably more important at this young age.


----------



## Tracy in Idaho

I chuckle every time this argument comes up. As a general rule, I don't grain kids. They cud early (we've actually scooped it out to look at it ;-)) They don't have torpedo bodies, in fact - they are quite deep. I think I am very lucky to have the high quality of leafy alfalfa that we do....it certainly seems to make a difference in our kid raising.

I found some really interesting reading on the subject -

http://www.grobernutrition.com/a-review-of-kid-goat-nutrition/ Grober Nutrition states that rumination in kids begins at 2 weeks 
http://www.fao.org/docrep/014/i2439e/i2439e00.pdf Multi-species study, they say 3 weeks - and makes mention of alfalfa feeding
http://www.calfnotes.com/pdffiles/CN048.pdf Says that rumen contractions are seen sooner in calves fed solid feed than those kept on only milk
http://agricultura.usab-tm.ro/Simpo2010pdf/Simpo%202010%20vol%202/Chapter%202/06%20Fericean%20Mihaela.pdf Rumination in calves from 14-21 days.

Really good info in some of these papers on kid raising at any rate!


----------



## fmg

From the first article that Tracy posted: "Repeated tube feedings will disrupt this reflex causing milk to pour into the rumen." I am certainly wanting to try and avoid this, but boy, these kids are not being very cooperative...hopefully the meds help 'em out and they feel like eating on their own. The buckling took 1/2 bottle before I made him stop this evening (since he hasn't eaten much lately, didn't want to blast him with a bunch), the doeling reluctantly nursed 1/3 a bottle. I did not tube any more into her, and gave sq fluids, and hope for better in the morning.


----------



## smithurmonds

I don't want to hijack, but Tracy mentioned the leafy alfalfa and there may be something to that- when I started feeding Chaffhaye I found kids were eating it with gusto earlier than I have had kids eating grass hay. I don't have any idea about when they actually start ruminating, but I do offer it at an early age.


----------



## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas

I was going to completely not chime in about kids not cudding at only a few weeks old....but when the conversation turned back to it, I couldn't resist. I agree with Tracy... I have seen my two week olds cudding. Especially dam-raised ones will stand at the hay feeder with her and eat the little bits and clover heads and whatnot. They don't get into anything stalky, but they really do eat some hay. If I'm latching them, I leave alfalfa pellets in a container along with some pelleted grain and they will nibble at the alfalfa and the more robust ones will start eating it for real at only a couple weeks old. Obviously, everyone's management works fine for them, and I just wanted to share that mine indeed start developing their rumen fairly early.


----------



## Trysta

Not disputing that at all, but fact is that even though the rumen is developing, it is not able to get all the nutrition out of the forages. Also, I was reacting to this particular post, where we need to make sure this kid will start drinking, since the tube feeding in itself will eventually be it's death. Therefore I am suggesting a break from tubing, but offering feed in as concentrated a manner as possible. My goat kids get some hay, too alongside their grain, and yes they do nibble and it is benificial in little bits.


----------



## fmg

The buckling seems to be going good now...the doeling is a little down in the dumps, and doesn't want to drink much. Yesterday and today, she has been a bit more depressed; maybe because of the diarrhea. I did give some more SQ's. And gave them both the banamine as instructed by the vet and today's dose of cocci meds.

I sat with the nipple in her mouth about an hour ago, and just let it run into her mouth...she swallowed what she had to as it ran in, but wouldn't suck....I think I can pretty much give her as much as I want her to get in this way, as she didn't fight it much. I don't know if the swallowing motion will open that groove (erm, forgot the name) to allow the milk to flow in the right compartment of her stomach like swallowing would, but I hope so.


----------



## happy vagabonds

Still thinking of you. I check this thread often. This reminds me so much of what I went through with Doughnut. Keep going, Nancy!


----------



## fmg

Thank you. I really appreciate all the help and advice and/or support I have gotten here from everyone. I have never had a sick baby like this before, it is so heart breaking, especially with this baby I was hoping to really add something great to my herd. I just want her to be well again. There have been so many times I just want to give up, but I won't if there is still breath in her. If I can pull her thru this, she may be stunted, but hopefully I can at least preserve her genetics in her kids...this baby, if she makes it, will definitely be on milk a LONG time...and her buck friend I'll probably keep on milk (if I have it) until he is butchered to keep him growing.

She's still not eating her bottle. The vet suggested tubing electolytes only today (it has dextrose for energy) and try with milk again tomorrow. I've not been tubing her milk in any more, as I don't want her tummy to get any more upset than it is, by not being able to properly digest the milk.

I gave the kids some cud the day before yesterday; I think it did perk the little boy up. I'm going to get some in them again today. I put it in a syringe case and shook warm water in with it, then sucked that up and syringed it to them, does that work?? I couldn't really imagine shoving it down their throats. Also, does it keep in the fridge, or should I go get more?


----------



## MF-Alpines

Nancy, I feel so bad for you. I know you are trying so hard.

I forget the OP of this thread, but if I remember right, these are newborn kids, right? If so, what could a cud transfer do for them? Nothing. Sorry, I don't have much to offer.


----------



## fmg

The doeling is 4 weeks old, the buckling is coming on 2 weeks old. The doeling just about sucked my finger off tonight, so I gave her second dose of electolytes in a bottle, and she slurped down the whole 20 ounces! I am going to follow the vets advice and do one more electrolyte bottle tomorrow morning, then wait at least 6 hours before giving milk. I think I'll give a little yogurt a little bit before the milk, or maybe just some more probios, to make sure she's got some bacteria to digest the milk with. I hope this will be the beginning of the end of this saga.

Couple questions if it is. I want to continue the sulfa for a full 21 days...these babies are on something called Primor, which is Di Methox combined with something else, which I can't remember. Should I get some more of this, or after the first 5 days, is Di-Methox on its own going to work? After the 21 day course, do I wait 3 weeks before giving the next cocci prevention? Actually, I'm going to order the Deccox-M that Tracy uses, so maybe I'll just start that at the end of the 21 day sulfa treatment.


----------



## swgoats

Yay! I'm glad she's interested in sucking now! I don't know the answer to your question, but this will bump it.


----------



## fmg

Well, she didn't want to suck her elect. this morning...hopefully she will this afternoon.


----------



## goatkid

I don't know what Primor is. It's best to check with your vet on that one since he prescribed it. I just use liquid sulfa my vet bottles up for me.


----------



## fmg

She took her milk with a vengence. I'm going to just offer 1/2 bottles for 24 hours to her, and then back to full milk rations. I'll call the vet tomorrow.


----------



## doublebowgoats

Oh, yay. I have been coming back and checking on this baby off and on. I just keep thinking she must drink her milk!


----------



## Ashley

Glad to hear she is eating!


----------



## happy vagabonds

Oh Nancy! That is so great to hear! Please keep us updated! Have you named her yet??


----------



## todog

maybe we should have a naming contest for this little girl. no prize just the satisfaction of naming a survivor. lol


----------



## lorit

I REALLY hope she stabilizes and overcomes all this stuff.  And a naming contest sounds fun.


----------



## fmg

She is still drinking milk well. Called into the vet and left message after helping another friend with a kid with the same issue-head out only! Ack! But, this one was much better, and we got the kids rearranged and both out and doing well, and so is the doe.

Naming contest would be fine by me! Her name starts with Tempo Aquila RR, sire is Redwood Hills Jazz Rimrock, and dam is Tempo Aquila Free Spindle. I was thinking something like Free Spinner, or something along those lines.


----------



## MF-Alpines

Glad she's doing better, Nancy. With "Jazz" and "Tempo", I was thinking something musical. Moonlight Serenade or String of Pearls (String of Pearls is a Glenn Miller jazz piece).


----------



## swgoats

I was thinking Break Dancer - rock and spinning. That's the way my brain works, :lol


----------



## creekmom

I'm so glad to hear she is doing better for you. Keep up the good work!


----------



## fmg

I only get 14 more letters for her name (ADGA is 30 letters and spaces, right?), so gotta stay within that.

The vet gave me 5 more days of the Primor; hopefully my deccox gets here by the end of that, put my Jeffer's order in yesterday.


----------



## goatkid

I'm glad she's doing better. For the name, how about Free Spirit.


----------



## squeak

How about Lucky Spinner?  Lucky she has such a great owner


----------



## todog

i like "Break Dancer" you can call her Dancer. maybe she could help santa someday. or how about "Twister" like the game. this is fun! oh wait, "Twisted Sister" and its only 13 letters.


----------



## fmg

LOL, Twisted Sister. There is already a Free Spirit at Tempo...though the name would still be different because of the RR that is in hers.


----------



## swgoats

Oh, Twisted Sister is it! Love it!


----------



## fmg

Hmm, the more I think about it, the more I like it. 

The question is, would I call her Twist, or Sister. Boy, the dilemma that is goatkeeping! Haha.

She and the buckling are still drinking milk well, and nibbling hay, and I've started offering some grains to the kids. Going to dump everything from my "newborn" pen, disinfect and probably flip the tarp over, bleach the bajeezers out of my crate, and keep any of my kids born out of the pen that these two are in for a long, long time.


----------



## todog

call her "Swister" get it? twisted sister rolled into one Swister tada!


----------



## fmg

Lol. I just keep thinking of Twisted Sister for her name, and can't help but get a little grin on my face...I think I HAVE to name her that!


----------



## swgoats

You can call her Sissy as a pet name.


----------



## fmg

My 2-year-old daughter loves to dance, especially to rock music, and sometimes she says, "I wanna rock!" (because she has heard the song on the radio before) LOL! So, this is even totally relevant to my life right now.  I wonder what Lauren will think when she sees that on ADGA Genetics...


----------



## todog

Her barn name could be "Twister". Now, we want to see what we have helped to name.


----------



## fmg

Here she is! These are from the day I brought her home.


----------



## todog

Oh ya! She fits the name. Congrats.


----------



## creekmom

Very pretty!! So glad to hear she's doing better for you.


----------



## swgoats

Aw, look at those ears. . Very sweet!


----------

