# Bottle Babies with tongue hanging out?



## KozaGirl (Jan 27, 2011)

We are on set #3 of bottle babies (of this year and over all, since we just got into goats last fall)... It was two bucklings born about noon on Tuesday. We assisted with the birth, but they seemed to come out and be perfectly healthy. One was 6.5 lbs and the other was 7 lbs. Neither dam nor sire are very big Nubians. We have since sold Daddy, because he was not what we were looking for, and was so small (we thought he'd still grow more). Have been milking mom out, who has the hardest udder I have ever felt!! The rear of her udder is like 2 big hard muscles. I rub and massage on them a lot at each milking, and use peppermint rub... anyway, the milk has been going straight to the babies- no other milk, no replacer. One boy drinks out of the bottle (Pritchard) pretty good, but still has his tongue hanging out quite a bit. The other guy just doesn't seem to get it... he will suck about 2 times (after having it put in his mouth because he can't get on on his own) and then just sits there... with his tongue hanging out the side of his mouth. His tongue hangs out the side sometimes just when he is walking around too...
What is going on with these tongues? Is this part of the reason I can't get him to eat? We thought eventually he would just get so hungry that he would get it, but it doesn't seem to be working that way. Neither dam or sire is registered, and we weren't planning on keeping these 2 anyway, but I can't sell a goat that won't eat!!!
Advice? Opinions? Seen this before?
Oh, by the way, I did try 2 other nipples to see if that made any difference with him... it didn't.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

No idea bout the toung hanging out. But the hard udder.....has she been CAE tested?


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## KozaGirl (Jan 27, 2011)

tendermeadowsnigerians said:


> No idea bout the toung hanging out. But the hard udder.....has she been CAE tested?


Yes, she has been CAE and CL tested- negative.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Vit E, one capsule daily until sucking on his own.
One smidge of Baking Soda in morning bottle everyday.
BoSe, 1/4 cc sub-Q. Repeat IF necessary.

Typical symptoms of selenium and Vit E deficiency. Both work together to get tendons, ligaments, muscles, and joints moving.

On hard udders, some lines are beefier than others, some are caused by too much protien and some of it is probably from hormones. 
Tam


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## LamanchaLover (Jan 11, 2010)

Our kids used to run around alot and they would pant with their tongues out, but this doesn`t sound
like this is the case. Keep us updated and I hope they get better soon!!


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## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

a second for what tammy said about your kid. (needing selenium and vit. e)


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I tend to have that problem here too. I keep note of which dam's kids have this problem and in future pregnancies she gets half doses of BoSe weekly for the last month of gestation. I had a doeling out of a FF (she had twin B/D) this year that I had to tube feed for 2 days. I give vit E capsule orally and .5cc BoSe subq twice a day and check for suck reflex with my pinky. As soon as there's a bit of reflex, I cut down to once a day until they are sucking vigorously. 

I am seriously thinking about giving EVERYONE the half doses of BoSe weekly at the end of pregnancy as I only had the one FF this year and tubing every couple hours for two days and nights was a PITA. All my other does got BoSe anyhow and their kids were hitting the bottle immediately and on the lambar by 24 hrs old. One 3rd freshener that I had not only had kids that wouldn't suck and had poor muscle tone even standing, but she herself would rock out and back on her back feet when heavy bred. The half doses of BoSe not only had her kids sucking vigorously (like little piranas  ), but also corrected the rocking of her feet (she had quads this year--all over 6# each).


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## KozaGirl (Jan 27, 2011)

Caprine Beings said:


> Vit E, one capsule daily until sucking on his own.
> One smidge of Baking Soda in morning bottle everyday.
> BoSe, 1/4 cc sub-Q. Repeat IF necessary.
> 
> ...


Could this also be a factor in why the doe didn't seem to really be pushing much during kidding??? Still learning here.... (DH said he forgot all about giving her the BoSe shot about a week before she kidded).


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Do you copper bolus? And yes it does aid is delivery. Try copper bolusing and deworming your doe. I would give her BoSe. 

This year many of our kids had no need for selenium at birth or after. Some did. I did give BoSe to many of our does that I KNEW would need the extra selenium. I gave four (of three doses) rounds starting at 75 days in. Theorically BoSe stays in the system for 21 days. So every 21 days two times I gave a full dose. Then I splint the last dose in two and gave half at day 133 and the other half at day 145. It made an extreme difference.

All lambars and bottles get baking soda every morning here. And if I even see you hold your tongue wrong...I get the dropper top out 
Tam


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Please try not to make up dosages, especially ones that can cause harm to others goats on the forum. 

If you have one goat that needs bo-se than your whole herd does. You shouldn't wait to give shots to your kids or milkers of Bo-se or vitamin E, giving only if you have problems because the problems can mean a kid who doesn't suck, a kid who can't walk and a kid whose heart fails. A doe who has one big buckling she can't pass. Selenium effects all muscles and also their reproductive help. Giving adult does more than 1cc per 40 pounds once every 21 days shouldn't be done unless you know from a blood test that you have more severe selenium problems, because selenium is toxic. Giving kids at birth 1/4 cc means your kids are 10 pounds, continue with the E daily if you need to, because there is very little E in bo-se and less in colostrum...but blanket moving to every day should be only done on kids you are willing to loose, as a stop gap measure to a kids who is failing and you are guessing. Especially in herds who do have alot of problems on the forum I worry about how much of the problems is how they have tweaked what is prevention management, into that if this works than giving more, more often will work better, to the detriment of their stock.

And we can't blame selenium deficiency on everything, like stalled labors or does who don't push. There is selenium in all feed stuffs, all pastures, all hay and all minerals, you would have to be blood tested deficient to be seeing problems that would need anything other than the 1cc per 40 pounds...so understand what you are using it for and target it, at those problems.


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## KozaGirl (Jan 27, 2011)

Yes, we copper bolus...she was done with the rest of the herd about 45 days ago. She was wormed when we bought her last fall and again at 100 days bred w/ Ivomec and was wormed day of kidding with Cydectin. She had BoSe at breeding but we missed her before kidding. Has VitaFerm Goat Mineral free choice also. DH says the hard udder is from all the alfalfa she had all winter- she was skin and bones when we got her so was trying to put weight on her- honestly surprised she settled since she was so thin...but udder seems to be improving with massage and peppermint rub- milk is coming up with each milking.
Kids got 1/4cc of BoSe and Probios at birth, no Vit E.
So Vicki- you are saying give some Vit E but no more BoSe to the kids? Did I understand your post right?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, a kid here would have to be having more than just their togue hanging out at nursing, perhaps making it impossible to nurse, or not sucking at all for me to continue bo-se more than the one show at birth. Now oral E, yes I will not only give it to them after every bottle (with the oil it also helps them clean better without having to use on suppositories on too young of babies) or at least do it once a day for a week or so until they are 100%.

Try not to forget the prebreeding bo-se, with that and at birth and start using the E...just cheap 400 IU capsules from walmart, ship the end and when the kids mouth is clean from birthing fluids just squish the contents in the corner of the mouth. I do E and bo-se before colostrum bottles. Vicki


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

The only reason I suggested BoSe Vicki is in the original post it was not stated they did get BoSE. I should have been more clear on that one.

And Vicki is right, you should test to find Sel. levels, which we have.

Tam


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Our vet told us 1/2 cc per kid at birth. Orally if before 12 hours old, otherwise, SubQ.

We use the 1cc/44 lb. for older animals. 

We give Bo-Se 14-21 days before the does' due date. All kids get Bo-Se and Vitamin E at birth (and a pinch of baking soda, especially the Boers who are sneaky and kid on their own in the wee sma' hours). Just routine.

BUT, this is mostly because we are not just Selenium deficient, as our Vet says, we are Selenium NEGATIVE. As in waaaay too many minerals etc. interfering with selenium uptake and absorption. 

Gotta say, that Bo-Se shot (or oral! Which we prefer!) makes a big difference to our kids.

ETA: Our Saanens are usually 7-9 lbs at birth and our Boers are 8-12 lbs (sometimes 6 lbs with Quads) and we dose them all the same.


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