# Selenium/Vitamin E shot?



## MilkMan (Feb 3, 2010)

I was reading this weekend a recomendation to give expecting does a shot of Selenium and Vit E 15-30 days before kidding and then give the kids the same at 3-4 weeks of age. I would guess, due to my location, our soil is deficient in Selenium. Is this something that people on here do? I am feeding them a goat mineral, free choice that has Selenium, so I don't know if it is needed.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Craig, yes, we give BoSe (vet rx). We give it per Vicki's management in Goatkeeping 101 30 days pre-breeding and to kids the day they are born. In kids it helps with their immunity, with does it keeps theirs up plus the mineral balance. We also give BoSe shots every time we bolus with copper to ensure proper absorption. 

Also, anytime a doe is sick or acting off, I give BoSe just to boost her system. It doesn't hurt and you can't harm them with it and in many cases it helps. 

There is some good reading in Goatkeeping 101 on this, just search it 

Jana


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

You CAN harm them with too much selenium, but a yearly or twice yearly is usually adequate especially if you are feeding a concentrate with selenium and a mineral mix with selenium. It is called selenium toxicity and causes the "blind staggers", weak in the rear legs, muscle weakness in the front legs and progressive weight loss. Each of these symptoms can also be symptoms of other illnesses and symptoms of selenium toxicity can also be the same for selenium deficiency. It can be confusing. You need to do the research in your area and keep good records on your animals to see if you are managing them correctly. But, there is a fine line with selenium as to what is enough and too much can be a bad thing.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Craig depending on "your area" determines on how much BoSe or MuSe is needed. Here in our valley we are severely defiecent. So yes we give BoSe Pre-breeding, bucks and does, prekidding--give the bucks some too. Kids here get one full cc at birth because of our deficiency. We have not had one kid have problems because of it, only health and vigor where there was a slow advancement last year. So for US this works. For others I suggest contacting your local Ag extention office for your Selenium levels if they even know. There are some areas I know of, such as South Dakota, that have mines that deposit serious amounts of selenium on the ground. These areas are overloading animals on selenium. So check your Ag office. Tam


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## MilkMan (Feb 3, 2010)

prairie nights said:


> Craig, yes, we give BoSe (vet rx). We give it per Vicki's management in Goatkeeping 101 30 days pre-breeding and to kids the day they are born. In kids it helps with their immunity, with does it keeps theirs up plus the mineral balance. We also give BoSe shots every time we bolus with copper to ensure proper absorption.
> 
> Also, anytime a doe is sick or acting off, I give BoSe just to boost her system. It doesn't hurt and you can't harm them with it and in many cases it helps.
> 
> ...


Sorry for not knowing that information is available. I am new here and haven't read thru everything yet. I will go thru it soon. Thanks for pointing that out, and thanks for you advice. I am somewhat new to dairy goats and trying to absorb a lot of information quickly.


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## MilkMan (Feb 3, 2010)

nightskyfarm said:


> You CAN harm them with too much selenium, but a yearly or twice yearly is usually adequate especially if you are feeding a concentrate with selenium and a mineral mix with selenium. It is called selenium toxicity and causes the "blind staggers", weak in the rear legs, muscle weakness in the front legs and progressive weight loss. Each of these symptoms can also be symptoms of other illnesses and symptoms of selenium toxicity can also be the same for selenium deficiency. It can be confusing. You need to do the research in your area and keep good records on your animals to see if you are managing them correctly. But, there is a fine line with selenium as to what is enough and too much can be a bad thing.


My Saanen is showing some of these symptons. Her legs are shaky, and she has trouble getting off the stand. I just put that mineral out late last week, and these things started occuring this weekend. I wonder if she might be getting too much. Raising goats is so complicated. I hope i don't damage them.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I wouldn't think a loose mineral with selenium would cause those problems. Is she only shaky on/getting off the stand? When did she freshen? If recently, it may also be milk fever? 

Last year I gave BoSe pre-breeding and 30 days pre-kidding and had problems with does back feet rocking out and kids with white muscle disease. This year I'm giving BoSe WEEKLY starting 30 days pre-kidding and no rocked out feet and vigorous healthy babies. 


ETA: Also, kids get .5 cc at birth.


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

I would hope you are administering those dosages under the guidance of a vet because weekly seems excessive to me even in a selenium deficient area.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't give mine weekly, but as needed. Yes it is under Vet script as he has determined the normal 1cc per 40 lbs is incorrect for the southeastern Washington. We use 1 cc per 30lbs and yes it seems excessive to give 1 cc tokids but it is the dosage that he and I have come up with that works here. If everybody would speak with their AG extentions and vets they would find many many different scripts for the entire US. Thats why its important to work with local mentors and vets that have been doing this for awhile. 
Tam


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Craig,
how long ago did the doe that is having these issues freshen? Seems to me that hypocalcemia is another possibility for the shaking hind legs and milk stand problems. What is her temperature and how's her milk production?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

1cc per 40 pounds of Bo-se is a very minimal amount and certainly would not be treating any deficiency. It is used to bolster only. We also know how poorly orally administering vitamins and minerals really work with the other deficiencies we know our goats have. We also know that bo-se at 1cc per 40 pounds will only raise a blood level for about 21 days depending if it is a fast growing kid, a good milker, which use up more of everything quicker, or a dry doe, buck or poor milker, who need and use alot less. Also E is in very small amounts in Bo-se.

So giving your does bo-se pre breeding, less than 21 day before bred puts them in optimum condition to ovulate as many eggs as the can, giving them bo-se prekidding, less than 21 days before they kid, improves muscles which helps with kidding and hopefully boosts colostrum and he amount of selenium available to kids, given to kids at birth helps with deficiency seen in most kids, from minor to major symptoms. I also boost my older does monthly.

Other than south Dakota I have never heard of anyplace where worrying about selenium toxicity is even a concern. Copper bolusing, bo-se injections and using cocci and worming prevention in kids should be part of everyones basic herd management, then if you can prove from blood tests, fecals, liver biopsy at death that your spinning your wheels, before then it's not harmful and it has way to much evidence that it's needed and works to fear it. Vicki


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## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

I sent the above post from Vicki to a friend to a friend I sold a doe to, the doe is due for Bo-se and is rocking on her heels and this is what she said, 
'That information is very interesting, although my question for you is what about the fact that BoSe is contraindicated for pregnant does?? I have wanted to treat a few of my pg does with it in the past as gut feeling told me they really needed it, but the vet strongly suggested I wait. I have not seen these problems in my goats,(the heel rocking) although I did rescue a Nigerian years ago that was severely deficient, and lost two beautiful babies...'.
This is a large animal vet. I sent my friend more info to talk her into giving selenium. Wow, I've read how few vets there are that know about goats. So especially for newbie's caution is due when looking for a vet for your goats.


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## pjt367 (Apr 3, 2010)

Yes, I am in the process of spending money trying to find a vet who has these thought processes. My next try is in Lockhart, TX. So far I have not had to travel more than 30 minutes.

The 2nd vet I went to seems to be knowledgable about goats but it appears his approach is nothing until you need it. When I told him I had been doing some reading online and asked if I could get some Bo-Se and CMPK he told me to quit reading online and go see my county extionsion agent. (Obviously, I'm not completely following that advice) I hope when I actually tract down the agent he has more information that was in the printed material they had out (1 two page article that had goats in the title and never mentioned a goat after that).

Thanks again to everyone who posts here. I am learning a lot. More than I can actually assimilate so I have to keep coming back to soak up a little bit more.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Please do not automatically assume that vets understand dairy goat management just because they are legally invested with the power to dispense medication. 
Unless they have had a dairy goat breeder as mentor to take them thru the cycles of a year of a breeding gestating lactating doe they are mostly clueless about routine needs. The vets here want me to bring them a sick animal to have on record before they will dispense meds. I understand the legal constraints they are under but I have not been able to convince them that what we would rather do is preventative care so that I am NOT bringing them a sick animal which they would not know how to deal with anyway. 
They most definitely do not understand the levels of mineral supplementation that make the cycles run smoothly with dairy girls. Please also keep in mind an agricultural extension agent has even less info than a vet and the local mineral studies done across the US were done by geologists and have nothing to do with the levels available in your feed and graze and browse and water and most certainly nothing to do with the way a small ruminant assimilates them.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Sorry Lee . I'll just shut up then.


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## Fiberaddict (Jun 4, 2009)

I have that problem with vets here - we are lousy with horse vets, and there's the local dude who does "all" livestock....but he has NO clue about goats. :sigh: One of our Nubians has pinkeye; my horse vet gave me some gent. ointment. It was working...but my husband wanted her looked at by the local guy.....who was *shocked* we'd even *think* about milking a goat! (Don't get me started on his attitude......goats are 2nd class animals there.)

He did sell me some meds to clear up the pinkeye (another ointment and some Duramycin 200), but he wasn't really interested in talking to me about preventative stuff...so I'll stick with my horse vet. As long as he's sure I know why I want what I ask for, he'll get it for me. That seems fair - he's protecting himself while helping me keep my goats healthy. I just wish we had a goat vet close-ish. :sigh


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## MilkMan (Feb 3, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your information. Honestly, I'm more confused now than I was before, but I will figure it out. :shrug I do not have any vets that are officially "goat" trained. One of them claims to be, but I have found she isn't always the best choice. She has another vet in her practice that raises dairy goats, and I have found him to be the most useful. 
As for my Saanen problems, I am about to give up on her. Her kid is about 2 months old, and she has had problem after problem ever since. Last night she refused to get up on the stand. She put the brakes on as I walked her into the milk parlor. When I say put the brakes on, she literally lowered herself down, and put her front feet out as to say, "no way am I going there." Instead of fighting her, I turned her around and she willingly walked right back to her pen. I think at this point I am going to dry her up. I'll give her some time out on the pasture to see if it improves her health, and if it doesn't, I will find her a new home. I worry whatever problems she has, she is going to pass it on to my other goats, and that just isn't worth it. I have plenty of milk and only paid $35 for her, so it won't be a huge loss.

Thanks again.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

MilkMan said:


> Last night she refused to get up on the stand. She put the brakes on as I walked her into the milk parlor. When I say put the brakes on, she literally lowered herself down, and put her front feet out as to say, "no way am I going there." Instead of fighting her, I turned her around and she willingly walked right back to her pen. I think at this point I am going to dry her up.


You have to be more stubborn than the goat... all the time. :biggrin


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## MilkMan (Feb 3, 2010)

Ashley said:


> You have to be more stubborn than the goat... all the time. :biggrin


I always have been until last night. Until recently, she would get up on the stand without me leading her. Right or wrong, I just have a gut feeling something isn't right w/ her. I just don't know what it is yet.


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## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Laverne said:


> 'That information is very interesting, although my question for you is what about the fact that BoSe is contraindicated for pregnant does??


It is counterindicated for pregnant ewes. Studies for possible causes of this have been inconclusive. But overall, it seems to be more a matter of selenium poisoning (too high of a dose administered when blood levels were already high) or anaphylactic shock.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

MilkMan said:


> Ashley said:
> 
> 
> > You have to be more stubborn than the goat... all the time. :biggrin
> ...


Well, you may well be right there.


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