# MILKING MACHINES



## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Hi there my name is Quentin, I am an English dairy farmer now living in Bulgaria. I am at the moment milking 8 goats by hand, I want to increase my herd size greatly, and also want to now machine milk. I have had many years machine milking, but never built a milking system. I have recently bought a used set up, but it was for cows. I am sure that the vacuum my pump is producing is to strong for goats. Can I simlply put a tap in the vacuum line, and turn it down untill I get my correct vacuum level or is it more complex than that. I am aware that it is very important to get these levels correct, I have 3 months before I am producing milk again, so hopefully this will give me time to get set up correctly. Any help on this matter will be greatly :help appreciated


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

You can look up a member on here who knows a lot about building systems. His username is Rambar Ranch. Maybe he will chime in here. If he doesn't, send him a message. Welcome to the forum!


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm not quit sure how the vacuum pumps are built in Europe, But, here the were designed to have a dial of some type to change the level of vacuum. Most cows are milked at 15 lbs of pressure while goats are usually done at 12-13. I have an old surge brand type vacuum pump and its regulator is adjusted by a weight. The heavier the weight, the higher the vacuum goes. So, if I need to change from milking a cow to goat, I just slip a bolt on it to make it a little heavier to do the cow. Would it be possible to get a photo of it? Maybe then we can tell if there is a vacuum regulating valve on it? If there isn't you can do just like you are wishing and just put a regulating valve between the pump and your vacuum lines.

Ray Adams


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks guys for your prompt replies, another problem I face, is the system I have bought, is a home made affair and probably built during the communist era. This being the case I dont know how many liters a minute it pulls, from my research I understand that there are different sized regulators for different capacity pumps. I can get hold of a range of regulators ( sent from UK ) but which one is the correct one? Is there any way of gauging the capacity of my pump. Machine milking in Bulgaria is a new phenomen, and if you can get the parts at all they are so expensive, and the so called suppliers dont really know what they are talking about. They certainly dont understand pump capacities or the importance of different vacuum levels for different animals.
regards Quentin


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I have a Waikato regulator which I put on an old cow system to. It works very well and keeps the vaccuum nicely at 12.


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

Quentin,

A regulator doesn't need to be a complex thing. It can be as simple as a valve you can open or close (a tiny bit) to let air into the system. It can be installed, as Ray says, in the vacuum line. As far as vacuum level levels go, I must admit I'm not up to date on metrics, but I do have two vacuum guages with metric scales. However, one reads in centimeters, and the other reads in kPa (whatever that is). Do you have a guage that has either of these scales?


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

Here are the conversions for inches of vacuum:
12 in/hg = 40.64 kPa (kiloPascal)
12 in/hg = 30.48 cm/hg

Here's the link to the site for the conversions:
http://convert-to.com/195/pressure-units.html

Hope this helps you monitor your vacuum level on your pump.


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

Do you have any way to find out the horsepower of the pump your using? That will help you determine the amount it can pull.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks agian guys for your input. I do have a vacuum gauge which I bought brand new, it is in BAR, I have been in touch with Greenoak in the UK and the tell me I should be running at .48 BAR ( half a BAR as close as ). Im not an engineer but I too would think that if my gauge is installed and running to high I could close a tap or valve in my line untill it hits the right level. This seems to be what you guys are telling me too, so Im more confident now that I can get this system to work, correctly. My pump has a balance tank attached, and for the time being I am going to use cow claws ( with extra ports blocked ) as this is what I have, how important is a regulator in the system for when I am connecting and removing the cluters, I have heard that if I dont have a regulator clusters can drop of other animals when I am removing clusters form 1, or have I heard wrong.
Regards Quentin


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

If you want to milk at 12 in/hg then your guage should read .41 bar using the calculator in the link above. Closing the valve, tap, regulator (whatever you call it) will increase the vacuum level, so you must open it to allow air into the system. Removing the inflations from an animal will cause a temporary loss of vacuum in the system or at least a drop in vacuum level which might cause inflations to slip off animals. You can stop this by using inline shutoffs or a claw. The vacuum balance tank should help this problem by providing reserve vacuum.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

True, you could do without a regulator, but they do not have to be that expensive. My Waikato one wasn't (trying to remember what I paid for it, but can't. Pretty sure it was less than 100 bucks) and it does a very good job, and my milking system is old, and has some glitches, so I'm glad the regulator does its job well. 

Good luck in Bulgaria! It must be an interesting place to be, with many changes over the past 20 years or so.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks again guys, Im getting the idea slowly, I appreciate by opening a valve/ tap, that will let air into the system and hopefully drop my vacuum levels to the desired .41. Am I correct in saying for goats I need 90 pulses a minute? Ive got old eatern block pulsators with an adjustment srew, Im guessing that once ive got my .41, I adjust the srew and count until I have my correct pulses per minute? I do have claws with the shut off valve at the bottom. Has anybody had experience of putting goats that have only been hand milked onto a machine, any tips or advice? Im thinking and hoping it will be straight forward as a machine is more uniform and probably easier on the teat than hand milking.
Regards Quentin


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

For goats we do ours at 60:40 that is 60 squeezes, and 40 relaxations/ min. You could also do 50:50. 90 is way to high for a goat, even cows here are only done at 70:30.


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

I agree: 90 ppm is way too high for a goat or a cow. The rate should be closer to 60 ppm. I have a doe who milks out better if I adjust the rate slower, down to say 45 pmm. Ray makes an important point and that is ratio. The ratio dictates how much the teat is squeezed and how long it's relaxed. When it's squeezed you are taking the milk out of the teat. When it's relaxed you're letting the teat refill with milk, and more importantly allowing blood to circulate. I've never had a goat who failed to make the transistion from hand milking to machine milking, and I believe they prefer machine milking because it is more consistent.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Again thanks for the info, as I said before machine milking is a relatively new thing in Bulgaria, the info I was given was from a stockist of milking equipment, they don't yet know really what they are talking about. Now I am armed with all the correct info, I shall start putting my system together, and see where I get to.
Thanks again for your help regards Quentin


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

They usually transition very easily to machine milking. I have switched 4 and 5 year old does from lifetime hand milking to machine milking and they all did fine. It is the different room/situation they are scared off, but not the milking claw.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Im glad to hear that it should be straight forward, I too woulld think so, as machine milking is more consistent. My goats will be milked in the same place in the same order, the only difference will be Im machine milking. The only problem I do face is that, the goats teats are not uniform in size or shape so some goats I think are going to have to be milked on cows sleeves and inflations as they wont fit into goat sized ones. Hopefully over time with selective breeding, I can cure this problem. One of my best milkers has near perfect teat and udder formation, so perhaps I can line breed with her later on. But that is another topic and I will be addressing that hopefully, with you guys help later into the new year. 
Happy new year to you all, thanks for your help so far. Quentin


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

We use a cow inflation on all our does. From first freshener tiny ones to the older large ones.
They really only come in 2 sizes here. One for regular size, or cow size, and one for nigerians. The regular size ones will fit on all your does. They don't have to encompass the entire teat and won't on any but probable the tiniest teated ones. 

Only ones they might have trouble working on are teats that are blown. But, the larger teats it'll just start down low and then as the milk goes out it will climb some unless your using triangular type inflations.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

So, do you have to have a different size for the Nigerians, or will the regular size work for them too? I have seen full-size goats with teats smaller than some ND, and ND teats that were as large as most full-size goats, so maybe just in general the other inflations are used for Nigerians.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Im a little lost here, you are telling me that cow inflations will milk first fresheners without problems, correct?
So whats with nigerians? I know the breed, but are you saying that they have bigger teats than cows or smaller ones, I dont have nigerians so why should this affect me. Im not in any way trying to be awkward, just trying to learn. Please bear in mind that where I am in the world it is 4.30 am in the morning new years day, and even farmers have to relax a little, dance:


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## Aeries09 (May 10, 2011)

I believe that Nancy was asking a question in reference to Rambar Ranch, because she was talking about variation in teat sizes regardless of being a full-size breed or Nigerian Dwarf. 

This is an interesting post to follow... Personally, I enjoy hand-milking; although, at the same time, I've only got two girls... Maybe as time/herd grows I may have to invest in this nifty machine!


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

I long for this nifty machine, bit late to ask santa clause! milking 2 goats by hand in the morning sun, I enjoyed. 8 is a bit of a bind. Good luck with your goats this year. HAPPY NEW YEAR. dance: Q ex raver, born again goat farmer.


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

Quentin,

I use standard goat inflations for all my nubians. Teat size varies from goat to goat but I have no trouble milking two finger first freshener teats to big robust mature doe teats.


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

We have used both silicone goat inflations, and plain cow inflations. The only different I can see is that the cow inflations are a big longer than the goats. The bore size appears to be the exact same. 

We raised saanens, which are pretty tall so the cow inflations work well for us since their much cheaper. Also they come in the triangle interior instead of a circle which we like as it doesn't climb up the teat. They wouldn't work so well on the smaller, shorter breeds as you'd have to spread the base out to fit under.

Ray Adams


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Sorry for the confusion Quentin. I tend to get distracted from the main topic when someone mentions something and just start asking questions, rather than make a new topic. Bad habit, I suppose. 

Ray-so what I am getting is that the height is the bigger issue than the teat size when selecting inflations?


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm not sure with the nigerian specific inflations. I don't have nigerians and have never milked them or had to buy inflations for one. I would assume they'd be alot shorter to fit under but as far as the bore size I don't know, tbh.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Today I picked up my motor, vacuum pump, and balance tank. It, on my first test run is working on an industrial scale. I just connected my milking pail directly to the balance tank and I am pulling at least, .6 kgf/cm2 = 58.84kpa, way to high, it even turned my thumb blue when I stuck it it the inflation!! I have yet to connect the 4m of pipe from my compressor room to where I milk, and at this moment in time, I will be running 2 milking buckets at the same time. So I presume this will drop the vacuum levals a bit. Now the question is, if it doesnt, where to I put the vacuum regulator into the system, do I place it directly after the balance tank? Where should my vacuum gauge be put? I actually have 2, one the size of a wall clock the other the size of a big wrist watch. I was thinking putting the big one in the compressor room and the other close to where I milk so I can at least monitor whats going on, any thoughts?
Regards Quentin


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

On my system, the vacuum regulator is between the pump and the vaccum gauge. It start with the stop cock, then behind that is the vacuum gauge, then behind that is the vacuum regulator, and behind that is the actualy pump and it has a seperate pipe that goes into the vacuum balance tank.

Ray


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

My regulator is at the end of the vacuum line. It really shouldn't matter where it is, since it regulates the vacuum in the entire line, right?


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Perhaps I should have worded myself better, when I speak of a vacuum regulator, Im talking about a tap or such to put into the system, to let more air into it to reduce the vacuum. My pump is directly linked to my balance tank, and I think it would be more trouble than its worth to try to insert it there.
My thoughts are, if my pump is connected to my balance tank ( with a connection I cant break ) I put the vacuum gauge directly after the balance tank, following that a tap/controlled inlet to the outside air which I can open untill my gauge reads the correct vacuum level. Does this sound feasable? My system is a mish mash of parts put together during the comunist era. Most of it originally ( Ive been told today ) from old navy ships!


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

Quentin, You've got it right. On my system, I installed the vacuum regulator next to the vacuum guage so I can easily adjust it and monitor the vacuum level. There's nothing wrong with repurposing equipment. My vacuum pump came off a printing press and is circa 1950. It still works like a charm and thankfully parts are still available.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Are, but do you have a regulator made for milking systems? I dont you see, Im still worjing on the notion of opening a tap to let air into the system to reduce vacuum levels. I can get a regulator imported from the Uk, but I have no idea how many liter per minute my pump pulls so I dont know the correct capacity to buy. What I do know, is that the motor driving the pump is 1.5 KW, some one earlier in this thread mentioned if you know that you can estimate how many liter per minute your pump pulls, but at this time I dont know the asnwer.


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

Your 1.5 KW motor transfers over to a little over 2 hp. From looking at other pumps, a 3/4 hp can usually pull 8 CFM and a 1.5 hp can do 12 CFM. Your 2 hp motor if its attached to a compatable vaccuum pump should pull at least 12-15 CFM. This is way more than needed for even a 2 goat system. You have enough vacuum to do over 4 if you so desired. I'm not sure how just having a valve in-line to open would work for you as vacuum fluctuates alot while milking.

Would you be able to import one from the U.S. if needed? Here's a sight I like to use with a vacuum regulator that would work well for you and your system:

http://www.partsdeptonline.com/cgi-...duct=117&cart_id=6122916.21781&exact_match=on


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

The regulator Ray has provided the link to is the one I use on my system. As you can see it's simply a spring loaded valve that you open to let air in the system.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks for that guys, it really helps. Im gland my pump is so strong, as later down the line I plan to expand greatly, and this means I dont have to re-invest in bigger machinery. I have noticed on my trial run that the needle on my vacuum gauge does fluctuate with the pulsations, I take it, this would stop that too? Now I know exactly what I am after, I do have a couple of places here in Bulgaria, I could try to source 1. If not, at that price I dont have any problem importing from the US, as It happens I am looking to get Dr Naylors dehorning paste sent to me before March, and the distributor for eastern is in NYC!! :/


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

The dehorning paste, from what I hear, is awful awful stuff. You might want to look into getting a disbudding iron instead. There are several types listed here: http://www.hoeggerfarmyard.com/xcart/Dehorning/. It is probably not the cheapest place to buy them, but at least you can get an idea of what one looks like. We have actually used a home-made one before, with an acetylene (or perhaps it was propane? I can't remember now) torch and some metal plumbing supplies from the hardware store (I would have to ask my father-in-law what exactly). It worked just fine.


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

I second not using the de-horning paste. That is some dangerous stuff. So, so, much easier to just dehorn with a disbudding iron.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

The thing is I have absolutely no experience, with a de-horning iron, however I have probably de-horned, 500+ animals with the paste all with 100% sucsess, and no problems. I appreciate there are some bad stories about using paste, but using an iron seems far more brutal to me. At the end of the day, we all do what we are used to doing, and what we are happiest doing, and for me its the paste. 
I bet Ive stirred up a hornets nest with this one! :crazy


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

Quetin,
If you decide to import the regulator listed in Ray's link, be adised that it is set up for 3/4 in. NPT (National Pipe Thread). I don't know if you can get a fitting that size or something to convert it to metric. Like I said, I use that regulator and at about 10cfm it will begin to whistle. I also added a filter to it to keep it from sucking dirt into my pump. I have a spare one of these I would send to you if you want it, can use it, and can tell me how to send it.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Nicole, thank you so much for your offer! In Bulgaria we can get imperial pipe fittings so putting it into the system wont be a problem. I too thought about putting an air filter on it what do you use? How much do you want for it, and how would I send you the money?
Regards Quentin


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

To add a filter to this regulator I used a thing called a "felt" It's basically a fiberous doughnut I trimmed to size and slipped around the throat of the regulator. These felts are used in the filter cartridges of my moisture traps. For us in the USA, they are made by GAST and Hoeggar's sells them. Quentin, send me a private email with shipping and I'll ship it to you.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

When doing my research on constructing a milking system, I have noticed many people are putting an inline tap on each pulsation line. The reason is that goats can milk unevenly, and when 1 side of the udder is finished to milk you can turn the pulsations off. I was just wondering how critical it is to install these in my system?


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

You can leave them out. People who leave them out, use a plug in the one you take off, but it is much more comfortable for the goat if you can just stop the suction to that particular quarter. Rather than pull them off with the suction going can be painful to the goat and possible cause mastitic problems.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

If I need to milk one side of the udder only (almost never happens) I use the lid of a washing detergent bottle over the one inflation and let it hang down, so it's all covered and won't pick up any dirt, while the other side still milks.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

I know the plugs you are talking about, Ive used them on cows. What I am understanding is there should be some method used so block suction to certain quarters if they milk unevenly. Whats the risk to the animal/quarter, if I dont remove pulsations and leave the sleeve on a quarter that has finihsed while I wait for the other one?


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

You risk damage to the teat orifice and also just discomfort to the doe. The system with a cover (official or unofficial like my detergent lid) is very simple and cheap, so definitely worth it.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Well my inline taps are on order, now a question about pulsation rates. My pulsators have a srew, which you turn to increase or decrease the rate per minute, how do I know Ive got 60ppm correctly? Do I listen for 60ppm or do I stick my thumb in the inflation and feel for 60ppm?


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

I have today run a quick test on both my miking buckets, 1 pulsator appears to be working fine. The 2nd, is making all the correct noises but is not inflating and deflating the liners as much as it should, any thoughts? I bought both pulsators second hand and stripped them down, cleaned and replaced any corroded parts with brand new. I dont appear to have any air ingress so I am at a loss on what to try next.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Is the air supply to the pulsator strong enough? There could be an obstruction in the line going to that pulsator and then, even if the pulsator works, it would not be able to do it's job.


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

I adjust my pulsators by listening to them and counting for a minute. It's easy because they sound like a clock or wristwatch (not digital). Trysta is right--an air blockage somewhere (a line, or in the block) or a leak could cause a vacuum pulsator not to work well.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

There may well be a blockage in the air line, there is enough air, as just for a test I plugged 1 bucket at a time into my balance tank, 1 pulsator is fine the other not. I stripped the offending pulsator down again today and all seems ok there. Im going to swap my pulsators round tomorrow and if all is ok it must be a blockage somewhere, and I,ll start looking for it. Out of curiosity, how many goats are you guys milking?


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Ive just had an afterthought, the floor my milking buckets sit on is on a slight slope. Will the fact that the pulsators are not dead level affect the way they work?


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Nope, a slight slope really shouldn't be a problem. Hope you can figure out what's wrong. I have an old system, too and sometimes there's some glitches with some air leaking here or there and the pulsators not working. I just work my way down to where the problem is by eliminating where it's not.... Sounds dumb, but it works, so far I have always found it and then there's the time where you take everything apart, don't find anything, put it all back together and it suddenly works....Arrggghhh! 

I just started milking 'commercially' in June this year. Milked up to 36 does over the summer and now, with my very first small group of winter milkers I am down to 16 milkers. In Februari and March and then onwards through September I will milk about 40 does for two other herds and then also about 20-25 of my own. The plan is to grow over the next 2-3 years to about 100 milkers, hopefully year round. Market is a beast here, I work with a marketing group that buys my milk (no contract, so risky), plus a small cheese maker that buys a bit of my milk.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Todays job, process of elimination, I too thought that is the way to go, as I have only 2 of everything, it hopefuly, wont take to long, but only time will tell.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Well, that was an easy fix, split in an air line, replaced it, and I'm now chirping along quite merrily at 60ppm. How do I clean the system after milking? I appreciate its rinse with cold water first, then hot water and chemical, then rinse again with cold, using buckets.
I suppose my main question is, how hot, is hot, in a professional set up I know its scalding, but I will be taking water from my house and I don't really want the water I use for washing up, bathing etc that hot, and at this moment I haven't the money to install another water heater. Is there a minimum temperature I can get away with?
As for the chemical, I know there is professional dairy chemical ( hyperchlorite ) but wether I can get it here is another matter. Are there household substitutes I could use instead eg bleach and if so what are the dilution rates?


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

In my dairy the hot water heater is set at 180 F, I believe. I used to use hot water from my house, but that was before I sold milk, so it's a bit risky to clean in a less than perfect way if your product is going to be for 'other people's food'. I would definitely try to get a chlorine based official dairy/pipeline cleaner. Bleach/chlorine by itself may disinfect but it will not get the milk fat out of your system and you would get a nasty buildup. In the very beginning I did three rinses, a prerinse, then one with a liquid laundry detergent (to 'degrease') and one with bleach. It kind of worked for me for a while, but again I definitely wouldn't recommend it in a commercial setting. Also, if you are going to use less than hot, hot water, I would prerinse with hot water, too, so your pails are pre heated, and the temp of the actual wash water stays higher (because it won't immediately be cooled down by the cold pails). Pre rinse (by sucking clean hot water out of a 5 gal bucket (about a quarter bucket/pail should do) , shake the pails well empty, and then suck up the hot water with detergent (about 1/3 to 1/2 bucket per pail should do). Shake the pails again and turn off the milking machine. I then take a brush (which I reserve for that job only, I never use it for anything else), take the lids off the pails and scrub the inside of the lid (taking off the rubber ring every other day to make sure it gets clean underneath, too) and set the lid away in the milkroom to dry until next milking. I then scrub inside of the milk pails and put the wash water in a clean bucket. With that water I clean the outside of the pails, hoses if needed and the milking parlor floor. Milking pails are set upside down on a rack in the milkroom until next milking.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Oh, and the detergents I use now are an official dairy pipeline/bulk tank detergent (chlorine based) which I use most of the time for the pails and units and always for the bulktank. Once a week I use an acid based cleaner for the milk pails and hoses to remove milkstone buidld ups. Also once a week I use Mandate, a different type of dairy cleaner, that especially targets 'cold-loving' bacteria. I also use this in a post rinse for my bulk tank.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

I received my vacuum regulator today, thanks to Nicole for that. I fitted it into my pipe work, no problem!
However I do still have a major problem!!...... using my new regulator I can get my vacuum guage to .41 but as soon as I open the taps to my milking buckets I loose all the vacuum from my balance tank and nothing works!!!
AARRGGHH!!!
When I was running tests,on my buckets and pulsators, I connected the miking buckets directly to the balance tank, using a piece of garden hose, the same length as my pipe work from my balance tank outlet to my milking station, about 4m. The diameter of the hose just happened to be the same diameter as the diameter of the pipe coming out of my balance tank, 1/2 inch, and my vacuum was far to stong! As my pump was so stong all the permanent pipe work I installed was of 3/4 inch diameter pipe, which in effect has increased my pipe work in length to 6m from my balance tank to milking station. And therefore now, I am presuming that my pump cant handle this increase in diameter and I should go back to 1/2 inch pipe work and adjust my vacuum levels with the correct piece of equipment I have now been sent my Nicole.
This of course in my own assumption, and if anybody thinks different I of course will be very glad to listen


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Hmmm, in the dark on this one, but I think before I would get to work replacing all the pipes, I would try connecting the milking pails to the pipeline instead of to the balance tank. 

Garden hose, eh? I think that would be totally illegal here, but what works, works!!! :biggrin


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

When you open the taps to your milking buckets are all lines going out of milking bucket plugged? 

Also, it won't matter which size pipes you use, the pipes will in effect act as a smaller type of balance tank. It'll just take longer to suck all the vacuum out of the lines. The more balance tank/pipes you have the longer it takes to build up the vacuum pressure.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Of course!! No, my outgoing lines from my milking buckets are not plugged! So then, I am never going to build up vacuum in my balance tank, if Im just sucking air from outside through my system. If I plug the outgoing lines, which would be the same as being connected to an udder, my pump would have something to pull against, creating a vacuum! Then if I just adjust the regulator, to .41, the system should be working correctly.
To add insult to injury, this is now my second vacuum pump, my first one was allot smaller, and as I could not build up any vacuum with it, because I did not plug my lines!! I presumed it wasnt stong enough for the job, and bought a bigger one!
The lucky thing is the 1st pump, I paid peanuts for, I hope I can find a bigger monkey than my self to sell it too!!


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

Sometimes the simplest solutions are right before our eyes, lol.


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

You might consider keeping the second vacuum pump for a back up if it can do the job. I keep backups. I have a backup for my main vacuum pump in my milking area as well as a portable I use in my house where I clean my equipment. All these backups come from collecting stuff over the years.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

It would appear I still have a problem! My system is all set up now, Ive adjusted the vacuum regulator so I am pulling .41, but when I connect 1 milking pail with the outgoing lines plugged and open the tap, the vacuum level drops to below .41 the pulsator does not work, it just sucks in air through its filter cover. When I open the tap to the second pail, the same thing happens, but my vacuum leval drops to .2.
I then removed the vacuum regulator and screwed a plug into its fitting, the vacuum then reaches more than .8, enough I would thing to run 2 pails at the same time. When I open the tap to pail 1, the vacuum level drops to .4 the pulsator doesnt work and again only sucks in air through its filter cover. When I open the tap to pail 2 the vacuum level again drops to .2 and again the pulsator doesnt work and only sucks in air.
The pulsators are in working order and have been working previously, so again Im lost on what to do now.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

A quick after thought, It is extremley cold at the moment, -10 C, will this have an affect? The pulstors have been stored at room temperature, but my milking stataion is hellishly cold


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

My first thought is you have a vacuum leak somewhere. I suppose the cold could affect the pulsators especially if you need to lubricate them and used an oil whose viscosity would allow it to congeal at such temperatures. You might try putting a heat lamp over a pulsator to warm it up a bit. You might look for ice buildup in your vacuum lines as well. A little ice from condensation could clog up a vacuum line. I've seen it happen on my own system.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Yes definately there is a vacuum leak, as I said it is coming from the pulsator filter cover. The pulsators are drawing air straight through them without " firing up " so to speak. Now, I havent lubricated my pulsators, as everyone here is talking about " leathers ". My pulsators dont have leathers they have rubber rings inside them, and I am aware that oil can rot rubber, so as yet have not used any. I am considering using WD-40 on them, but I am asking first, before I do more damage than good. It is not ice build up in the system, because as I only have 4 m of pipe work this all came in the house, when the cold weather arrived.


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

To me it sounds as if your missing a gasket of some type under your pulsators to the lid. If you don't get a tight connection of the pulsator to lid it would sound like that and cause it not to run. Also make sure you have a seal of some type between the lid and your bucket as thats another cause of leaks.

You may have done this already just re-checking things. If you have seals to both of those then I would increase your pressure on the vacuum regulator to see if it will get your pulsators going, then note the pressure it took to fire them up.

Ray


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Ok, at last I think I have found my air leak, my pulsators or not of the type you mention so it is not that. However, the air leak seems to be between the lid of my milking pail, and the pail itself. I have put brand new seals on the lids, but the top rim of my pails are badly scored and scratched, and air seems to be getting in through there. Is there any way I can get these out, or stop the air getting in, my pails are aluminium.


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## Rambar Ranch (Oct 25, 2007)

Depending on how deep the pits and scores are you could either grind it down level and smooth, or if you had access you could if their very deep build them up with a welder and then grind it smooth and flush again.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I've had that too and we ground the top rim of one of my pails and got it to work. Also, when it is very cold these older pulsators, which may have some condensation in them may stop working. Mine do. If I pour a bit of hot water over the air inlet they usually work again. I have a 'salamander' heater in my dairy now to keep lines from freezing and now that I keep the temperature higher in the dairy my pulsaters aren't acting up anymore.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

I figured I would have to do something like this, what did you grind the tops down with? How did you manage to keep it level? Im concerned that if I dont grind the whole top level I will make it worse than it is now


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

You are correct that you must keep the rim level or you'll never get a seal. Since you're dealing with a soft metal you could use a very fine grit sandpaper, as high as 600 grit. I know the milk can has a wide mouth, but if I could I'd lay out a full sheet of sandpaper on a flat surface like a thick piece of glass or granite. Then using a figure eight motion I'd move the rim across the sandpaper until the scoring is gone.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

EUREKA!!! Its the smallest things that are sent to try us! At last, and I do mean it this time Ive located my problem.
Im using cow claws for goats, so one side of the claw, the milk line input, I bridged with a piece of milk pipe. On the pulsation line I did the same with pulsator pipe, and my pulsators did not function. When I did my first test about a month ago, this bridge had a very short piece of pipe which meant it was kinked, and everything worked fine. I later replaced this bridge with new pipe leaving it longer with no kink, and the pulsators didnt work. 
So this morning, determined to get to the bottom of my dilema, I thought for a bit and said to myself what is different now to make it not work? After a while I remembered the different length of pipe, so replaced it with a shorter one, making a kink and hey presto ITS ALIVE!!
My pump is now running 2 pails at the same time, without problem, my pulsators are chirping away at 60 ppm, and the vacuum regulator is working perfectly, thanks Nicole!
My only problem now is , Ive got no goats in milk to try it on, I cant wait till mid March, so I can plug my girls into the MATRIX!!!
Thanks for all your input, help and generosity on this one guys, it is very much appreciated. Im now as happy as a liitle boy in a candy store!


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

That's great news Quentin! For me, at least, helping you work out your problems has given me a better understanding of milking machines in general.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

It certainly has for me too, its taken a while longer and a little extra cost, but we got there in the end. I think the confusing bit was using cow claws for goats, if Id been using cow claws for cows or goat claws for goats, Id have solved the problems earlier. No matter we are there now!


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Well, Ive now been milking on my new system for about 4 days now, and all seems to be fine. The system required some minor fine tuning, but on the whole " I'm chuffed to bits ". Obviously the girls and I have to get into the routine, but in the short space of time Ive been milking its all getting quicker. The 2 does in milk so far have taken to the machine, with no problems at all, and seem quite happy with it. However, I had a doe kid this morning, and she is a notorious kicker, so fun and games could be on the cards very soon.
I'd like to thank you all again, for your help and generosity, on this!. Ive been trying to post some pics, but with no luck, I have reduced the sizes, but I cant get them to post. ill keep trying.


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