# first freshener with no udder



## Manon of the Spring (May 2, 2009)

Bette delivered on 3/10/2010 with a single small healthy doeling. She also delivered two undeveloped fetuses about 3 inches long. Her due date was 3/11/10. I had about decided her breeding hadn't taken, because there was absolutely no sign of a developing udder. She is a first freshener, bred at 8 months on her 4th heat. She is a very healthy goat, no problems at all. She is a mini-Nubian, 3rd gen, currently 24 inches tall and tapes at a hundred pounds.

After delivering, she still has no udder to speak of, I can feel some swelling in the udder area but I can't see anything that looks like an udder. I am able to milk a couple of tablespoons of milk from her several times a day. The milk doesn't look anything like colustrum, it's thin and white. She stands willingly for milking, and 'helps' me by lifting her leg aside. I took her kid at birth and she is bawling terribly for her, though she quiets down when I come in the barn and pet her.

Has anyone experienced anything like this? Will she eventually develop an udder?

Thanks,

Jeannie in SW WI


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Jeannie, 

what were you feeding during pregnancy and what are you feeding now?


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## Manon of the Spring (May 2, 2009)

I fed a very good grass hay after milking was finished last year, no grain. In mid-February, I started feeding grain, increasing gradually, the grain is an equal mix of whole oats, barley, and wheat. Kelp always available.

I did notice at birth that the doeling's teeth were barely there - maybe she was actually premature? I put the buck in with the does on Oct. 12 and he stayed there for 2 heat cycles, so she could have been bred 20 days after Oct. 12 - though she was in heat when the buck went in.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Jeannie, 

your problem with this doe is that she doesn't have any calcium to make milk with. The two kids are likely not developed due to calcium defficiency. Your doe needs some alfalfa asap, she is likely hypocalcemic and you will have no milk unless you start providing her with source of calcium. Good quality alfalfa hay or alfalfa pellets, she may even need CMPK at this point.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I hope your doe improves soon. The alfalfa will help in time but I think Jana is right about her needing some CMPK (which is an injectable calcium supplement) for now.
By the way, does your name come from the movie, Manon of the Spring?


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## Manon of the Spring (May 2, 2009)

I have some calcium and magnesium tablets on hand, so I will crush those and feed them in some NutriDrench, along with a D3 tablet. I'll get some alfalfa pellets and see if she will eat them (none of my goats have ever been willing to eat alfalfa pellets). Hopefully that will help. Thanks for the advice, Michelle and Jana.

Michelle, yes, my name comes from the movie - it and Jean de Florette are wonderful movies and are in my top 10. I wish I could just roam the hills with my goats all day!


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Jeannie, 

crashed tablets given orally to a rumiment will not do anything. The doe is at least 5 months behind on calcium intake where she had to supplement the development of her babies by pulling calcium from her own bones. Calcium for a dairy goat is not a dietary supplement like we take Vitamin, it is the base of their nutrition. Majority of what a dairy goat should be eating during gestation and lactatio IS alfalfa. 

The CMPK is a vet Rx (and is not expensive), given subQ as an injection to restore the goat's calcium need quickly and then keep feeding alfalfa to maintain the levels she need to milk. Unless you get her eating alfalfa (if she doesn't eat pellets, get alfalfa hay, call feed stores see who has some available) you will not have milk and the doe will eventually die of hypocalcemia and secondary problems that will follow. CMPK is given at 30 cc under the skin every 6 hours, imagine how many tablets you would have to crush to match that , and given orally it will only be partially absorbed by the time it is processed by the rumen. 

You found a place of valuable info and the best advice I can give you is USE it. In Goatkeeping 101 there is article on management of dairy goats so you can see what their needs are to thrive, produce milk and have healthy babies. 

Jana


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Those are great movies! You should see "The Girl From Paris" Another one about goats and french girls!
Let us know how your goat does. There is a recipe for homemade oral CMPK on here. The injectable is the best though.


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## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

I do not know if I am right or wrong, but I asked my vet to get me some more CMPK and she said it was not available anymore and that the company was shut down by the FDA. Only the gel was available. I did use Susan Reith's recipe this year and I do believe it was helpful for the doe that did not bounce back after kidding. Used it for 3 days - doe is fine now and milking over 8 lbs. Jennifer


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

manon, my goats get grass hay (coastal bermuda) but get the same amount of alfalfa hay everyday too. They also get alfalfa pellets everyday. That is the foundation of my feeding program. The grain is a separate issue and is fed to the youngsters, bred does and milkers at specific amounts twice a day. My dry does and bucks are not getting any grain, they just get the grass hay and alfalfa hay. Does also browse an hour a day.


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## eliya (Mar 11, 2008)

Jana, be a little more gentle please! As a newcomer to the forum, I would feel pretty intimidated if I were Jeannie.


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## Manon of the Spring (May 2, 2009)

I'm not ready to conclude that hypocalcemia is the problem. Has anyone had a doe freshen with no udder, for any reason? Did the CMPK fix it?

The homemade CMPK is made from crushed tablets?

Thanks for all the help, and be assured that I'm doing everything I can for Bette. My vet hasn't returned my call yet, so I don't know yet if CYPK is still available.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

We all have to keep in mind that we cannot see each other's faces or hear tones of voices when we read these posts....so, what I do, is just assume everyone is nice and trying to help. We have all been new to the forum at one time or another and it takes awhile for each person to understand each other's sense of humor and idiosyncrasies


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Eliya, 

good point. I forget that often the text lacks the tone and body language to go with it and I sure don't mean to come across harsh or anything like that. My apologies, Jeannie. 

Jana


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## Manon of the Spring (May 2, 2009)

No sweat, I'm a big girl. I just want to do what's best for my goats, and do a better job next year from what I learn this year. There're a million opinions out there on what to do, and they mostly contradict each other, so a new goat person has to try what makes sense to her, and learn from her experiences. 

I'm trying to figure out what's different with Bette, that she's not succeeding with the same treatment all my other goats get, so that I'll know more in the future. And I will figure it out. And I'm grateful for any help I get with that.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Jeannie, 

not in my herd but, yes, i have seen newbies with FF and no udder and it was always the calcium problem, not enough in the feeding program to provide for the doe, kids and milk production. 

To show that no one is born an expert in goats and we all tweak our management as we learn, my first doe was fed grass hay and browse (I didn't even know she was bred) and stopped eating immediately after delivery and was in advanced hypocalcemia. Was milking a few squires, she was older so the udder was already there. Injectable CMPK, alfalfa added to her diet free choice, proper amounts of grain and she was able to nurse two healthy kids, give us a little extra and delivered a set of healthy triplets 9 months later. 

On a side note , our vet sold a bottle of CMPK just a week ago, so it is available here. Cattle vets will know what this is and usually have it available. $20 a bottle.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Good point Diane and don't forget the press of time.
Wanting to help and just needing to spit it out and get on with the list!!!

Lee


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Jeannie, 

I know what you mean about contradicting opinions. The good news is that the calcium info is based on research and facts, not opinions and the Goatkeeping 101 part of this forum is packed with valuable info from established sources. The folks here are very knowledgeable and have been a tremendous help to me in improving my management and fixing my mistakes.

I run into this argument often and the claim is always that the goats are doing fine. But then there are always difficult births, dead or absorbed kids, not enough milk or short lacation cycles, does post kidding not eating and it all tracks back to nutrition. If you think something is not right with Bette while the others are fine, I bet you would be pleasantly surprised with the improvement in others and in the milk production with the addition of the calcium they need in their diet on daily basis  

Hope this comes across as it is meant, as well meaning advice from someone who's been there, done that, started doing it differently and could not be happier. I could not have done it withotu this forum and the knowledge here. 

Jana


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## Manon of the Spring (May 2, 2009)

My vet's not in, but they do have CMPK and my husband's going to pick it up on his way home.

I don't see any of the typical signs of hypocalcemia, so if that is the problem, hopefully I will have caught it early enough.

Is it possible (my other does are milking gangbusters and delivered with no problems) that Bette was affected by this because she is young and didn't have the calcium reserves the mature does have?

"yes, i have seen newbies with FF and no udder and it was always the calcium problem" Thanks for that, Jana, it helps a lot to know that calcium deficiency is definitely known to cause a doe not to develop an udder.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Actually, Lee, I am just trying to hit 400 posts here. 

No, honestly, these kinds of posts always hit so close to home with me because I remember where I started and how desperate I was for advice and had no one to ask. Today I could easily save the doe I watched die 2 years ago of something treatable with one shot. I am just trying to give back, Jeannie, and that is the truth. Folks here too the time away from their schedules, if it is something I feel I have the answer to I try to give some fo my time. Don't mean it to ever sound snippy. 

Plus you have to forgive me, in real life I have an accent and English is not my native language and often it come across impolite the way I word things, hubby tells me but I don't have the politeness detector in English as sharp as I would in Czech.


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

I have had a FF kid early and not come into her milk. Maybe 8 oz max and her diet was good alfalfa etc. It can happen. However its not always the case. I've also had early aborting does that start slow then come into full milk just fine. That said you will have much better luck all around if you feed alfalfa. A doe will never milk to her potential without it. We just got CMPK from the vet and didn't hear any mention of it not being available. Doesn't mean it won't..that would really stink tho! I always have it on hand it is cheap insurance at $5 a bottle.


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## adillenal (Feb 6, 2009)

ABout 20 years ago I had a fabulous junior doe that when she freshened had no udder whatsoever. The next year I bred her again and she again freshened with no udder so she was culled. WAs fed the same diet as the rest of the herd that was on milk test and had no problems, dairy pellets, alfalfa pellets and alfalfa hay as well as free choice grass hay. She was the only one that I ever encountered like this. Too bad since she had great conformation.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Jeannie, 

would you give us a little background on your herd, breeds, ages of does, milk averages, if they were born on your property or purchased and when? The grain provides energy and energy will make milk if enough calcium to pull from their own resources but eventually the resources will run out. Someone correct me if I am wrong. 

Jeannie, here is what I think.

Hypocalcemia (as I understand it) is calcium defficiency. If the doe is not producing milk but has grain availalbe for energy then in my logic she is missing the other component - the calcium. So if she doesn't have enough calcium I see her as calcium defficient even before she stops eating, starts shutting down with low temps, etc. To explain why I still push the hypocalcemia theory, does that make sense? And again, if I am wrong someone please correct me. I am afraid that if you give her enough time she will develop the symptoms. So I am really just diagnosing by default based on the nutrition info you gave me.  

Now if she was fed alfalfa through pregnancy, well balanced mineral, now freshend and no udder, I'd say the milk may come in later. But to me every dairy goat that is not getting calcium in some form for an extended period (and especially during gestation and lactation, which both require higher calcium intake), I just assume them defficient by default. I also assume the rest of the herd defficient and I woudl if they were my goats too, this is not to offend you, just to explain my theory. She is pulling from resources to grow kids that she normally needs to function herself. If those levels are not restored, it will eventually show somewhere. 

Let me know if it makes any sense or not. There is a lot more to it, the above is just oversimplification of the nutritional requirements of a dairy animal. 

Glad you were able to get the CMPK


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

LOL, Jeannie, if nothing else at least I got your post some attention and it's been staying close to the top, ha ! Now maybe I need to go argue with myself to draw attention to my "Bumps and Sores" post


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I do my best argueing with myself in the wee hours of the night


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## Manon of the Spring (May 2, 2009)

Diane,

Arguing with yourself in the wee hours of the night is a good way to lose a lot of sleep!

Jana,

My goats have had some bumps and sores, but none that look like your pictures, sorry.

And, really, no offense taken! Really! All this has started me thinking in new ways about my herd, and that's always good. I have a 10-year plan to become a decent goatkeeper, and this is helping me get there.

My herd consists of 1 30" Nubian doe 5 y.o Cookie., 3 more mini-Nubians, one of which is 9 y.o. Rock, two of which are 5 y.o. Monty & Lily, and mini-Nubian Bette, who is 13 months old, and two mini-Nubian bucks. Bette's the only one born as mine. I bought my first goats 2 years ago. Milk averages, approximately, a gallon each from Cookie and Rock, 3 pints from Monty, 3/4 gal from Lily. This is the first year I'm going to have time to keep careful records. So far, Cookie is milking 9#'s on her 3rd day of lactation.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And if you do have does milking on your program with no problems (although we all know from experience that a doe milks more on alfalfa in some form) than you can simply blame it on genetics also. The two breeds in her Nubian and ND are notorious for having poor amounts of milk in their ancestory. It could be a gene from each of their meat breed ancestories. Nubians afterall are meat goats and ND came from pygmy's. Both new breeds were selected out of the milkiest of their meat cousins. 

You know when you have a premie, sucking reflex always comes into play so if you did not have to tube this kid than she wasn't a premie. vicki


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## Manon of the Spring (May 2, 2009)

I think you're saying, correct me if I misunderstood, that if my does are milking without problems, they probably aren't genetically capable of milking a lot of milk, because if they were, they'd need lots of alfalfa. This isn't a problem at all for me. I want a herd of goats that can milk a useful amount without requiring a lot of inputs. My ideal is a goat that can survive on what a small homestead can produce, ie., with the minimum of outside inputs. I don't know where that line is, but I'm going to find out. Call me crazy, but that's my goal.

Thanks, I did not know that about the sucking reflex - she sucked just fine, so she's not a premie, that's useful to know.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

We don't have alfalfa up here. I only feed grass hay, thats all we have, and a lot of that grass is weeds. Because we get a lot of rain in the early summer, especially lately, the hay around here is not terribly high in nutrients either, and its usually very coarse. I only started feeding alfalfa pellets last year when there was no hay to be had until late summer. I have never had a case of "milk fever". But then, I have to feed a commercial dairy grain which has a lot of calcium added (with a balance of phosphorus). I now add alfalfa pellets year round.

I have never had a doe freshen with no udder, but I have a friend who has Boers who had a FF deliver with no udder. If I remember correctly, she delivered about a week early and had a single. She had to bottle the kid. That same doe had a normal udder when she kidded as a 2nd freshener.


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## Manon of the Spring (May 2, 2009)

That's encouraging, Sully. If Bette, despite my efforts, still doesn't develop any udder, there's hope for next year.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

If indeed she had these kids early then she may or may not improve but to find out you need to milk her 3 and 4 times a day. In my years of experience I had one doe that went full term and had no milk for 3 days. This was not a calcium problem for her it was just her. Then I had two does have kids premature and by giving her cmpk and milking her 4 time a day her milk did come in tho not as much as I would have liked. the next freshening they were just fine. 
I too believe you need to get some injectable calcium/mag/potassium regardless of the brand name and give to her. If that is not possible then make the recipe Sue Reith has which is in Goat 101 as they nee the potassium also or liquid CMPK However be it know that never will you get the results with these oral spensions as you will with the injectable. I have done it both ways.


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## Manon of the Spring (May 2, 2009)

I've been giving her the injectable CMPK starting yesterday evening, and milking her 4-5 times a day.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I too had a two year old FF that kidded with no udder to speak of this year. I have not figured out the problem yet, I'm hoping it is nutritional rather than a genetic flaw....one can be fixed, but not the other. My does have gotten free choice alfalfa pellets for the last 2 years, this goat since birth. She was fed with my milkers last year as I believed she was bred...but she was not, she just kept getting fatter, developed a small udder with colostrum, etc. 

I feel being overfed probably, in some way got her system out of balance calcium-wise. We do copper bolus starting over one year ago and saw increases in all milkers amounts after that....several are milking close to the two-gallon mark, and since this doe is related to all other does in herd, I have hopes she will increase also. 

Right now, with this doe we are up to just a little over 1/2 gallon per day at just over a week fresh. Udder is slowly developing, but is still small. This doe did not go hypyocalcemic or have any problems at all after kidding other than the lack of udder development and milk. 

I believe this is all nutritional, and like you, hope to get it figured out soon. Maybe I just have no other FF in the herd to compare her to and am expecting too much....although I've never had any of my does milk such a small amount after the first few days, even the FF's. 

Good luck. Glad you can get the CMPK. Never heard of a goat that wouldn't eat alfalfa pellets. Keep at it, I'm sure she'll eventually gobble them up.


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## Manon of the Spring (May 2, 2009)

Thanks, Anita. I was able to milk a whole cup from Bette this morning, and her udder has slowly, slowly grown a little since she freshened two days ago. Her teats seem to have grown a little, also. It encourages me that you're up to a half-gallon after a week or so. Bette's a mini, her mother milks a gallon a day, so if I'm up to a quart after a week, I'll be very happy.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Jeannie, that is a good report. I hope she does just fine for you.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

I would guess there was something going on hormonely with this goat. 

A question I would like to have answered if it is possible that was another breeding besides the one that produced the kid on March 10. Has she been exposed to a buck since that time and was bred again? 

It is possible for a pregnant doe to conceive later and produce a full term and fetus that are under developed. I had this happen one year. The doe was bred and two month later cycled again and was re-bred. She gave birth to a single fully develped live kid and a fetus that lived only a few minutes. 

Although being born a day early is not really considered a premee - an early kidding can cause delayed udder development. However, I would guess that because of the other undevelped fetuses the proper hormones were not released to signal good udder development. 

Also be aware that most of the time a doe giving birth to a single will not give as much milk as one who has multiples. 

If you do want her to milk - it is important that you continue stimulating her by frequent milkings as you have been doing.

One more thing, if you like the doe, give her one more chance to have a normal pregnancy and evaluate her milkability before making a culling decision.


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