# just got "educated" about CAE by a breeder of 30 years



## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

Well I inquired about an alpine/saanen cross doe thats for sale near me. When I asked if she tests for CAE she said no way because the test is very inaccurate. So I asked why she thinks that because I test thru Biotracking, and they use the ELSA test which is very accurate. She decided to educate me, the test was designed for cattle because CAE is a huge problem in cattle. I asked if she was confusing Johnes with CAE she said no the C stands for cattle and if I was asking about testing I should know more about it instead of pretending. Plus she has had a "closed herd" for the last 10 years but showed me 5 kids she bought this year and 2 does she bought last year. So I said I think I will pass. She told me thanks for wasting her time and if I wasnt interested why did I even bother. So I told her I wasnt going to buy anything from her because 1st her herd wasnt closed if shes buying new animals every year and 2nd the C in CAE is for caprine, cows cant get CAE because its a goat disease and maybe she should educate herself before accusing others of being uneducated. This is a lady that told me shes been raising dairy goats for 30 years. She does have some nice goats but I am still going to pass.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Wow. Just, wow. :crazy2


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

fmg said:


> Wow. Just, wow. :crazy2


That's my exact reaction, too. Wow!


----------



## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I was blown away by this lady. Another one that will never ever care about preventing diseases. The closed herd thing just baffled me. How can one claim to have a closed herd when your buying and bringing in new animals?


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Wow, lol, there are some real characters out there! I can't believe she told you "thanks for wasting my time"! If there isn't a complete website, all you can do is go and look.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Why a short telephone conversation about disease and worming can save you a trip. You can tell these kinds of breeders really quickly, and they are all over. Why, and it's a broken record I know, you don't see whole herd negative tests posted on websites, they simply don't exist in most herd. If they don't...than buy on contract only so you can test the moment the goat gets on your property and get your money back when it does test positive. With some of the money people sell their goats for, I never understood why escrow accounts weren't used more often to protect the buyer.


----------



## DRRD-LMANCHAS (Nov 4, 2007)

*my 2 cents*

On a side note, we are a closed herd too. We purchased 2 does from one breeder and a buck from another breeder this year, already. But, newbies on this ranch go into isolation pens that are far from the main herd. Blood is drawn immediately and sent to Bio-tracking, this is done even if we have just seen paper work stating that the animal in question is clear.

In my many years of raising goats I have seen a lot: like the bait-n-switch, and people buy animals at local auctions and tattoo them and register them to one of their herd does. The stories go on and on. I can still learn from a person new in the field and be very leery of an old-timer like myself.

Then you meet a lady like we got our buck from this spring and you wonder and say "WOW, why can't they all be this class of wonderful."


----------



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Closed herd-locked in a barn and never let out?

Long time breeder up here says that CAE is nothing to be worried about, all goats have it and it doesn't cause any problems unless they get abscesses. Its just arthritis that all animals get. CL isn't a problem either because all goats have it to some degree and all abscesses are caused by staph.


----------



## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Oh my goodness!
Tam


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I think I know who the person Sully mentioned is, and what is worse is that she is on a forum telling people those things. If not, there is another one like that in Maine.

Juanita, thanks.


----------



## DRRD-LMANCHAS (Nov 4, 2007)

People who say that all goats have CAE are usually talking about % Inhibition number in the Test. That would be the third column in the attached screen shot of one of my last report. I did Party and Leap the two does that I purchased this spring and three does from my "closed herd" that some how missed the 'whole herd' test last year. Some people go by the % of Inhibition. I read this some where on the Web I am by no means a guru. 

A completely closed herd would soon, IMO, become dwarfed and other problems due to a decreasing gene pool. But, I too have talked to some pretty strange people on the subject of goat diseases.

YQW, Nancy:hi


----------



## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I understand that even a closed herd has to add new genetics, but you are not a closed herd if you add new animals every year and do not test or quarantine, especially if some of your animals came from auctions. This lady calls herself a closed herd as a sales pitch. She has gone on the list of never buy from & dont sell to.


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

And Juanita, I don't think they are talking about the % inhibition. Because I think most haven't even heard of BioTracking.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

It is my understanding that a closed herd would be one that never brought in new stock. Their genetic pool is large and diverse enough to not need to bring in new stock. If someone tells me they are a closed herd but that they buy new stock, what does that even mean?


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I think the word closed herd is a marketing tool and nothing else. You can't call yourself a closed herd if you bring in live animals. Now semen, sure. It's just disingenuous. If you bring in new animals and use quarantine, well then you are a smart herd, but closed, no. Vicki


----------



## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Agree with Vicki. I've also heard this term bandied about. And then next thing I hear, they are bringing in a new animal... so that is not "closed" at all. 

I think some people don't understand what the term means, and have re-defined it in their own minds to mean whatever they want it to mean. Alas, that's not how language works. You can't just make up your own meaning. 

I met a person who believes that "closed herd" means she only buys new animals from the same person she got her original animals from. She thought she would have no disease because she did this. However the original breeder does not test for CAE, does not worm, does not give CDT etc. AND they bring in animals from other herds. That's the strangest definition of "closed" that I have yet heard.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

I know of ONE person that had what I believe to be a *closed* herd and it was before I ever purchased goats. She brought no animals in, her animals never left her property (except of course the ones she sold), she knew of and tested for CAE/CL/etc, practiced bio-security to the point of obsession. She was my first *mentor*, or maybe I should say *education* about goats. I posted about her once when I first joined the forum and Whim jumped my butt!! LOL I've learned a whole lot more since then and I do NOT have a closed herd.


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Whim?


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

A former member. Went and looked and he is inactivated. ? He seemed knowledgeable (?), IDK. He wasn't here very long after I first joined. Maybe he got sick of all my silly *newbie* questions and comments and pre-conceived notions. *~* LOL


----------



## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Okay. Why did he jump your butt, though?


----------



## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I see closed herd being used as a marketing ploy. Theres a herd close by that calls themselves closed but shows at fair. Its become over-used to sell mediocre animals just like tea cup & micro mini in dogs and pigs. In my ventures searching for a couple new doelings i have met all kinds. Including people who claim to be disease free herds, yet test for nothing. But this lady had me speechless. Not testing because the CAE test was designed for cattle is a new one for me.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Well, I don't recall *exactly*. I remember posts being deleted by admin (mine and his). As I said, this lady's ideas were extreme and she had been my only *education*. Having her type of closed herd is NOT the only way to keep a CAE/CL free herd... and he let me know it!  LOL Where ever he went off to, I won't ever forget him. I consider him part of my *better* education at DGI.
I agree that claiming to have a closed herd is a marketing gimick. I just don't get it though. Bringing in animals to improve, taking animals to show, TESTING,...NOT having a closed herd, in my opinion, is a MUCH better marketing tool. It's also alot more work and I see many not wanting to bother, so have a *closed* (untested) herd is easier.


----------



## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

FMG, yes, that's who I am talking about, however, that mind set is pretty much the norm for up here.


----------



## Blackbird (Jan 11, 2013)

The stupid... It hurts! Lol! Wow!


----------



## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Sometimes people use the term closed herd in relation to scrapie status. In this case, a closed herd would be one in which no new does (or ewes) are brought in, only bucks (or rams).


----------



## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

and ..... sometimes people do have a closed disease free tested herd as we are not all fakes and liars or suspected to a coverup because we state that we have a closed herd or disease free ...... Some people use their accusations because they themselves have diseases like CAE and the dreaded CL that is impossible to cure once a goat gets it and almost near impossible to get rid of as it lasts for many years in the soil and on everything that the pus is exposed too. 

Don't knock others herds by your own thoughts or suspicions just .... make sure your own herd is disease free and tested !!!


----------



## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

I am not knocking other herds. In my area "closed herd" and "disease free" have been used as marketing ploys by a lot of people. There are closed herds out there but you cant tell me you have a closed herd and then show me the "nice" does you bought from auction last month and your herd isn't disease free just because you don't see any signs of sickness, if you dont test you dont know. Those are the people I am referring to.


----------



## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I bought from a closed herd - no showing, no buying new does, no walking in her pens, no taking outsiders, only new bucks every couple of years. That's closed to me.


----------



## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Agreed. You get no judgement from me. If you say your herd is closed, and then go on and tell me about the new animals you just bought, I'm not going to take you very seriously. If on the other hand you say your herd is closed, you can show me your records and lab results for negative animals on CAE etc, and you have not brought in new animals (except possibly bucks with good records) that's a whole 'nother ball game. 

And frankly, I'm not asking people to SAY they have a closed herd. That is voluntary information. The only times I have been told this, is when I ask about CAE status. *THAT* is when I get, "Oh, we could not possibly have that because we have a closed herd!". Well, I'm so sorry, but I'm a pesky person who would like to see evidence that your herd is CAE free. Just you saying it, will not do the trick for me. And I am very happy to show people my own lab results, nor do I make the claim that I am a closed herd and that people should just trust my word that my goats are disease free. I do my level best to provide the evidence, just like I would like to see, if I were buying goats from them.


----------

