# Ligament question.



## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

I have a doe who lost her ligaments over 24 hrs ago, I can get my fingers nearly all the way round her tail bone. Yesterday morning she was pawing at the ground, glassy eyed, so I thought birth would be soon, Ive been checking on her throught the night but still nothing.
As this is the first time I have been checking ligaments, to show she might be on the way, and according to a link I was posted, she should be on her way. I was wondering as all goats are different, can it be that even tho hers ligs are gone she can take longer than the 10/12 hrs as stated ( actually ) in 2 links. Goats code of honour and all that? 
Its just a general sign not a definate one?
Most of my goats are due this weekend, and all go out to pasture with the village flock, I dont want to keep them in needlessly. 2 have detached ligaments the rest dont, would a good way to tell when to keep them, be when the ligaments detach? I mean if ligs arent detached and I send them out they are not going to give birth in the 8 hours they are with the flock?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Although when I can touch my fingers because the ligaments are gone is a good indication, mine is the vulva and udder. At no time is your does vulva one long slit with zero upturn, zero wrinkles, we call the smiles, around the slit. In fact they are pink because they usually are deep wrinkles and the inside gets no sun to make it tan. You can visually see that the inside of her vulva is showing with pink new skin and with the ligaments gone she looses control of her tail (since the thurl is what controls a tail wag on the goat). And when she walks her teats no longer flap, they are firm and tight and her udder is shinning even through the hair. When new folks ask "Do I need to milk her out she is so uncomfortable with her udder that full" I know she will kid soon.

So for my herd, ligaments, no so much.

And I do a pelvic to see if her cervix is open, then I don't run to town and clip the intercome to my jeans. Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I was a bit confused when I first started to feel for tail ligaments and was feeling too low, everything was squishy there. They were higher up than I thought. Could it be that you are not feeling in the exact right spot? Have you felt on your other goats? So far, ligaments have been my first sign of a doe getting ready to labor, then there were other things like pawing, talking, stretching, etc. Some of my goats always paw the bedding and "fluff" it a bit before laying down, but when in labor, they just paw and paw and paw usually. I have one doe that doesn't hardly have an udder until a few days post-kidding, so I have decided udders don't tell enough of the story. The ligaments, so far, in my limited experience, have been The sign she is going to kid soon.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

Ligaments have been reliable here except for the one a couple weeks ago that never entirely went squishy with the small single kid that I hypothesize was giving minimal hormonal signals. She wasn't uddered up hardly at all until after kidding either.

Except for that one, ligaments GONE have meant kids in 8-20 hrs.

One has me up tonight too... lost ligaments by midafternoon, her FF kidding was about 14 hrs after, so we might lose our 9am-9pm kidding record with this one. Her dam's FF kidding was about 12-14hrs from my notes, her 2nd kidding was about 8 hrs, so I was hoping this girl would follow in her mom's footsteps and get with the program early tonight... I think our ark building deluge and everyone laying around under all day will slow down her labor. I'm going to make her walk a bit and I'll milk her some, her udder is drum tight, but it was thin texture when I checked this afternoon.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

In the short time Ive " realised " about ligaments, Ive been ( according to the Fias farm link I was given ) checking all my goats regulary. I can certainly see and feel a difference in 2 goats, 1 has a due date of Saturday and the other Sunday, the one that is due on Sunday, her mother is also due then, but her ligamments are rock hard and nothing is squishy on her at all yet. This is a learning curve for me, so I suppose practice make perfect, and I will get alot of that, as 4 of my does were covered within 24 hrs of each other, so Im expecting to be very busy, very soon!
Can does induce other does into labour? My mother and daughter pair, when covered on the same day allways kid within 12hrs of each other, they have always been kept together and are in adjoing pens at the moment.


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

I always make a habbit of moving my hands over my goats at least twice a day. I watch them as they walk, I look at them from different distances, I listen to them. I know for me, when I say hmmm. that is wierd I wonder why she is doing that? She is in labor. Hmmmm. wel that is crazy why is she being such a jack...she is labor. Didnt eat your breakfast...labor.....grinding her teeth standing alone...labor...wierd baby calling noises, labor. I also do pelvics when they are in active labor. Had one I did recentely, was a finger tip (the preverbial finger tip) and she was pushin 20 minutes later  Best advice, don't ignore the "geez that is wierd - cuz' every single time I have said that - the goat was in labor!"


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

For my herd, when a goat lingers around after the ligaments are gone she usually is an ff or has larger kids she is having a harder time Arranging them or may have a malpresentation. Usually once the ligs are gone, mine kid within just a few hours tops. Had one last year that went over 24 hours after the ligs were gone. She had good sized triplets and the last one was backwards with one leg forward. That kid was also weak and couldn't stand up. So I think it was having a hard time getting in position. But a quick repositioning and all was well. Another doe that took a long time had a huge single doeling that she had a hard time passing, had to pull to help her. My doe that kidded yesterday, her ligaments weren't even completely gone just a couple hours before. Seems mine kid faster than they used to overall.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

Mine often gradually start losing their ligaments a week or so out. They gradually drop but I don't try and feel them anymore. I look for a very pronounced bony protrusion in that area with a corkscrew tail...that is the clue for me...and a more red colored, fleshy vulva. And then fluid or strings hanging down and a white dollop on the vulva.

I have a doe right now who lost her ligs completely day before yesterday and her tail is sticking up. She is very large and I suspect either large kids or mal-presented triplets. I've gone in twice and as far as I can tell her cervix was not dialated. She is really worrying me and I've been through many kiddings. 

Good luck!


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Whats the procedure for mal-presented triplets? apart from maybee 20 kiddings my birthing experience is with cows. I had 1 set of triplets 2 seasons ago with no problems, and I think the goat I have been asking about may well have too, she is far bigger than the last doe who had 3.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Quentin, when the doe is going into labor, I check presentation with a couple fingers. If I feel both front feet , one ahead of the other, and the babies nose, it know it's positioned correctly and all is well for that baby. Otherwise, it depends on what's positioned incorrectly. If a foot is back (if you are unable to fix this, the kid can be born with one leg back typically), I gently ease the baby back out of the way some and reach under and CUP the hoof with my hand, then pull it forward, that way my hand protects the doe from the hoof scraping as it's being pulled back. That would be done the same whether the kid was coming out rear feet first (an acceptable presentation- but be careful the kid doesn't breathe birthing fluids, I try to keep the umbilical from tearing before the head is out) or front feet first. There are other possible malpresentations, for example, the feet could be there but the head bent back or you could have the side of the body or just a butt (same thing as one foot being back, just have to do it twice!), I've never had one of those. Also, it's possible to have parts from two different kids. There is an article on here about malpresentations somehwere. I remember it says to think "banana" you want the kid to be a banana whether coming front first or back first. And of course, the baby, if you pull gentle to help, is pulled downward. One that I just encountered for the first time, is a kid can have it's a foot over it's neck, so if you can't find a foot that is missing, check for that.

Here is that article:
http://www.goatwisdom.com/ch1baby_care/deliveries.html


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

This is only my third kidding season. I have read that does can start losing their ligaments and then they get harder again, then lose, then harder, etc. That did not happen for me the past two years. They did start to lose them about a week before kidding and always kidded no earlier than the due date and up to day 153 (I have Alpines). 

That being said, this year I am kidding out six does which 5 are FF's and the other was a purchased doe that has not kidded here. So I have no idea what to expect.

I have two 2 year old FF's due 3/20 and 3/21. One was purchased as a kid and the other was born here. The purchased doe started to lose her ligaments about two weeks ago. They are not gone, just loose. The other doe, nothing. Hard as a rock. Udders.....the purchased doe is developing an udder, but her teats are not that long and it's not that full. The other, her udder is looking nice, teats longer.

So what's my point? Who knows?! Really. Unless you know your does, your herd, and even then, it seems like seasons change. Wait, watch, feel, observe. Maybe there will be a pattern, maybe not. 

The ligs help, but so do other signs. Pawing, goo from the vulva (which can also happen a few weeks out), excessive neediness, a slow down of feed consumption, excessive "chattiness" which also equates to neediness. 

If you observe your herd often, you can tell. LOL! Now that doesn't mean you don't put up a doe in a stall a few days early thinking it is going to be "any minute now". Ugh. I hate kidding season!!!

Good luck to you this kidding season. Please post your observances and happenings.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

A couple of mine lost their ligs 2 weeks ago and they still haven't kidded. I can never use ligs as a means to predict delivery with my bunch. With mine it's usually the tight udder, pawing, licking me and everything else and making a nest.


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## LLB101 (Sep 29, 2009)

LLB101 said:


> Ligaments have been reliable here...ligaments GONE have meant kids in 8-20 hrs.
> 
> One has me up tonight too... lost ligaments by midafternoon, her FF kidding was about 14 hrs after...


She easily had healthy, big twins about 14-16 hrs after ligs being totally gone again.


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