# Ever seen this? **GRAPHIC, disturbing photos**



## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

We had our first true trainwreck yesterday. We had to put down the doe and have saved the fetal anomaly to take to Texas A&M for evaluation. Basically she had a 30 pound monstrous deformed thing -- and a completely healthy doeling. One of our goat mentor/friends was able to rescue the doeling via c-section, immediately post-mortem.

For scale, know that this thing is on a 50# feed sack. Has anyone ever seen anything at all like this before? We'll see what A&M says, but theory now is a renal failure in the fetus that resulted in it not excreting any of the fluids, but continuing to take them in. Dunno.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Haven't seen or heard of it but am sorry for your losses :down. Please post what you find out. It is quite interesting. Tammy


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2009)

Lord have mercy. That would be awful to reach in and try to figure out what you had a hold of. :nooo


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

O my that is gross. Looks like an alien .


Sorry no answers but will be watching this thread for results.


Patty


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

OK no one get mad but

it looks half human half goat .......... 

Do you have any strange neighbors ???? :really :biggrin

Sorry could not help myself.


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## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

OH MY HEAVENS!!!!!!!

yeah what Patty said!!!
EWWWW!!! that thing is horrific.


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## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

No, I have never seen anything like that. I too wonder what Texas A&M will have to say. Sorry you lost the doe, but glad your friend could save the doeling.
Theresa


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah. I was at the market. My husband went in and thought he had a breach and was feeling the tail. It was the tongue. They couldn't even get a lamb puller over the head - that's when they knew it was REALLY bad.

I agree - it looks like a malformed human baby with goat hooves. So bizarre. I googled all day yesterday and found nothing close. Two of the most experienced breeders we know have never seen anything like it in their combined 40 years or so of goats. A real puzzle. I was hoping maybe someone here had seen something even vaguely similar, but I will post again when we hear from the vet school. I will weigh it before we take it in Wednesday. I am pretty sure we're talking about 30 pounds or so.


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## togg75 (Nov 30, 2008)

Wow! that is very disturbing. Thanks for sharing. I am very interested in the results. Do you have records of vaccinations, worming, etc... for this doe during her pregnancy?


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

Wow. I have never seen or heard anything like this before... Please post what you find out. Sorry for your loss.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Nope Lisa, that is a new one on me also. Vicki


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

My first thought just upon hearing it was an animal version of hydrops fetalis...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrops_fetalis


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

tried to find good pictures of it but couldnt come up with one. That is what my bet would be. hydrops fetalis is severe edema, most often caused by cardiac deficiencies, but also can be caused by renal system issues and genetic defects.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2009)

Oh my! Sorry to hear of this sad news...glad you got at least one healthy baby.

I too am interested in the findings at A&M...
Michelle


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

picture of it in people, http://www.pathguy.com/lectures/hydrops.jpg


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

So sorry you lost the dam Lisa Please do update us on the A&M Results


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## KingsCoGoatGuy (Dec 20, 2008)

How many legs does it have? My goodness, it don't normally get sick over things but MY GOSH! That is just plain SICK. I did have a friend who had a buck kid come out via c-section full of fluids. He came in at 20 pounds, and completely formed. Just a "water baby" as the vet called him.
Wonder if it is anything like what can happen to English bull dogs? The puppies fill with fluids??? I believe it is call "walrus puppy"

Would be interesting to hear what results come back saying. Any new drugs when she was bred? Sorry for the loss of the doe, hope her doeling does well.


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## Madfarmer (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm so sorry, Lisa. Rotten luck. Are you sending tissue samples on the doe as well?

Tom


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

My friend has just had two of her Boer does kid with what she called alien babies. They were deformed and hairless, but not so large like that. The does were able to deliver them without a c section. Her DH who is a cattle rancher said it was probably caused by either a mineral deficiency, probably iodine or some toxic plant they ate. Kathie


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

SHOCKING ! Human/Alien/goat looking ...... I cant wait till you get the report back ! I have never saw anything like it. Glad you have a normal doeling and very sad to hear about your doe,she could never have had that thing :down


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## tinygreenfrog (Feb 19, 2009)

wow- amazing. very interested to hear the results. its like a horror movie to reach in and find that.

so sorry


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

That is awful! It looks like a pig. Sorry you lost your doe.


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

LeeAnne -- I am leaning toward your article which is kind of what we had come to without having a name for it. When I read that, it hit on something two pediatric/OB Dr.'s & nurses we know mentioned which is a syndrome (in people) where one twin starts to get too much of the blood/nutrient supply and can't process it all. That oculd be what led to the organ failure that caused the edema. 

My gut feeling, because there is a normal twin, is that it is not related to poisoning or anything else environmental. We'll probably get it in on Wednesday, but in the meantime, I have sent the photos to Caroline Lawson who will forward to Dr. Craig and a few others for initial thoughts. 

To answer the vac/worming question - this doe, like all of ours, got Ivomec Plus at 100 days bred and CD/T in her last month. Same batch of both as other does. It was her second freshening, first was normal. I think it's a random event to some extent. I'll post up if we find out anything new.

--Lisa


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

I dont think so, Lisa, what you are thinking of is twin to twin tranfusion syndrome and it only happens in identical twins. I may be wrong but I didnt think that goats had identical twins (originally one kid that splits into two). It is also usually associated with a very under-nourished (to the point of not surving the pregnancy) smaller twin. Most cases of hydrops fetalis in people is not related to twinning but to "simple" defects of a cardiac or renal nature.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Page 435 of "Goat Medicine" discusses fetal hydrops in animals, specifically Anasarca, saying that anasarcous kids may be cotwin to normal, viable kids and that the same doe may present normal kids in future (or past) gestations. Another cause is hydrops which they state can be a recessive gene from teh buck or hypothyroidism in the dam.


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Wow. So much to take in. I sure hope it's not a gene present in our buck.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

They said that one herd had ELEVEN such kids in a single kidding season! Can you imagine? I think I'd quit!


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Good Lord! Thanks for the "Disturbing Photo's" disclaimer! Sorry you lost your doe Lisa. How's the doeling doing? 
And LeeAnne, I agree. If I had even a few, I think I'd call it quits!


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

The doeling is hanging in there. The whole thing was a full week before her due date, so she's a tad underdeveloped. Slightly cloudy eyes, no real teeth poked through yet - but almost. I am still truly amazed she survived -- and that Jakarta didn't get sick before finally going into shock while they were working on her. 

So-- what signs would a doe with hypothroidism present? I wan to learn everything I can out of this experience. No sense in it being in vain.


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Here is a great link. It describes the anasarca, but also two other forms of hydrops. I am sure we are covered in one of these three things. I am leaning toward hydrops allantois.

http://compepid.tuskegee.edu/syllabi/clinical/large/obstet/chapter5.html


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## Leo (Mar 10, 2008)

Sorry you lost your doe, that must haven been a horror to see that kid come out, but at least your doeling is doing well.


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## cindy (Sep 16, 2008)

Lisa, sorry you lost your doe. Yes, the pictures are disturbing, however, I find them totally fascinating! I have never seen anythink like this before. I am VERY curious to see what the University finds. Please keep us posted!
Thanks,
Cindy


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Okay, just disgusting! Very interesting as well.... Very interested to read the reports and the links everyone has provided.

Hopefully this is just a queer anomaly.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

My eyes, my eyes, but I just can't tear them away! :crazy

My gut instinct when i saw the pic was kidney failure. As a nurse in my past life, I had end-stage renal failure patients who looked like that. I am speaking of adult patients. But the 'look" is the same. Extreme bloating with the look of fluid right under the surface, skin delicate looking like it will pop.

thanks for posting the pic, we should have a thread on goat 101 of gross pics :biggrin


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

:yeahthat what Diane said, along with prognosis. I think this would definately help out other folks. Tammy


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Here's the little survivor. Darned cute.


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

wow, amazing. so sorry you lost the doe. was the face developed? If not, i'm wondering if there could have been a dwarfing gene present. sometimes assosciated with thyroid issues too. similar to bulldog calf. looking forward to hearing what the ag guys think, its a fascinating case.


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

What are those long, flappy, gross appendages on the sides of that kid's head???


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

Well, ain't she just the cutest thing.. do _NOT_ show her a pic of her sibling!


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Feral Nature said:


> What are those long, flappy, gross appendages on the sides of that kid's head???


That's her most endearing "defect". 
We had a couple Numancha kids this year. I had trouble loving them. I should post pics in O/T. Two were cute, one looked like the devil.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Mar 2, 2009)

Wow, how strange,horrible and sad all at the same time. I'm sorry you lost your doe, but glad you were able to save the doeling.

It will be interesting to hear what the final verdict is and if there is anyway to find out if your buck and doe may be inclined to throw this kind of thing before it happens. (thinking of the way the gene for white foal syndrome can be tested for in paint horses)


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

I have seen this in puppies..but never in goats. I am very sorry, that is a terrible train wreck you had to deal with..
Patina


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

WOW. Up until now the most horrific kid I had ever seen was my cyclops baby. This surpasses even that.


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## haeema (Jan 18, 2008)

I am sorry for you loss.... :sniffle.. however, we need to take this time to "LEARN" about the abnormalities of life. My sister-in-law had been watching her cow for several days and the cow prolapsed in the night and they both died. Calf weighed over 120#.... Since that time, she has kept a closer watch and called in the vet for 2 other cows who were birthing....

The old saying, "Live and Learn"


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

Trudy we cannot watch animals 24/7 . Your sisters loss was not her fault . In life things go wrong.

Most of us cannot afford or even need to call a Vet out . Your sister probally did not either she was just affraid due to the fact she just lost one.

Also abnormalties happen but not as the normal. So yes we all know a birth deffect is possible but no one is ever prepared for this.

Patty


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

We had a cyclops once when we gave Valbazen during the first 60 days some many years back. It was pitiful little blind doe kid with one eye... but this picture is sick, sick, sick!


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

LMonty said:


> wow, amazing. so sorry you lost the doe. was the face developed? If not, i'm wondering if there could have been a dwarfing gene present. sometimes assosciated with thyroid issues too. similar to bulldog calf. looking forward to hearing what the ag guys think, its a fascinating case.


Lisa's DH here, The face may or may not have been developed. Whatever features were present were buried deep in the extremely swollen folds surrounding the head. When I first started feeling inside the doe during labor I couldn't make out any features. Once we had it out, I was a little beyond giving it a full examination.


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

haeema said:


> I am sorry for you loss.... :sniffle.. however, we need to take this time to "LEARN" about the abnormalities of life. My sister-in-law had been watching her cow for several days and the cow prolapsed in the night and they both died. Calf weighed over 120#.... Since that time, she has kept a closer watch and called in the vet for 2 other cows who were birthing....
> 
> The old saying, "Live and Learn"


DH here again. Trudy, we watch every birth like hawks. The doe in question had started showing very early in her pregnancy. As she progressed she got really huge. We were expecting quads and probably premature. When she started acting like she was in labor it was 7 days before her due date. I was up with her 3 times in the night to look for trouble. She was pawing the ground a little but she never pushed, there was very little discharge. Considering how far out her due date was I didn't want to manually dilate her cervix. It wasn't until morning that she started pushing. At that point I felt inside her and realized that we were going to have a bad time. A very good friend with a lot of experience (and smaller hands) came over to help see if we could figure out how to get the kid out. She and I worked on it for an hour with a lamb puller and couldn't get any traction. We figured out that the kid we were pulling was really large.

At this point the doe wasn't looking good. We talked briefly about going to the vet but he's 40 miles away and the doe was showing signs of shock.

I decided to put the doe down for several reasons. Primarily I did it because these animals are livestock, not pets, not show goats. We need our herd to be in tip top health to give milk. A doe that can't kid on her own has no place in our herd and we won't sell or breed one that has problems.

Second, I decided to put her down because it was the only way to be sure there wasn't a viable kid in there fighting for its life. I got really lucky on that one.

I hope I never have to do it again, but I go into the birthing stall knowing that its a dangerous time for the doe.

I'm sure your post wasn't intended to suggest that we did something wrong in this situation but the "Live and Learn" advice is pretty misplaced.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2009)

Sorry for your loss, but it is great to see you on the board. :biggrin


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## shawhee (Jun 28, 2008)

Lisa so sorry for your loss. Yes please let us know what A&M has to say.


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

Ugh, how awful. I would have been freaking out with something like that...I am very glad to see that it is not at all common. I don't see how you possibly COULD avoid serious problems with something like that. How is the other kid doing?


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I stopped by my friend's place yesterday and saw the alien babies. They looked alot like the goat in the photo - hairless and bloated - but nowhere near that large. She said one actually lived for about 5 minutes. Though the doe birthed them without difficilty, she died later on. This makes me think there could be something seriously going on with the doe when something like this happens. This was an older Boer doe. I told her about this thread. Hopefully, she'll jump in and contribute. Kathie


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

It will be interesting now to find out the results, as there are now two cases in totally separate regions. My inquiring mind wants to know the cause. How long before you get any test results back? Tammy


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

We have not yet taken the fetus anywhere. We are hoping to find someone who wants to take it as a study case, but no luck so far. We are almost 100% sure that it was Hydrops Allantois and Anasarca. This type of fetal hydrops is thought to be a genetic issue (not necessarily hereditary, but genetic - meaning no external cause)

Goatkid-- this one was not hairless. The back side was completely covered in hair, as were the legs. I think the rapid expansion of the skin is what left the side you can see in the pic hairless. Also, we had a normal kid in there. In the case of two that looked the same, I would look at toxic plants or other toxins to start. That is almost definitely not what we are looking at here. (Ingestion of locoweed can cause this defect on a smaller scale.)

For now, we've got an email in to PVAMU to see if they want the monster. Many people are interested in the photos ... not so many the fetus. And with HLSR, a lot of people are unavailable right now. We'll let y'all know if we learn any more, but we may be at the wall in terms of learning more.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Have you tried Washington State University (WSU)? They are always doing study cases. Tammy


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## doodles (Nov 1, 2007)

UGA vet school or Auburn would surely want it.
Angie


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## peregrine (Dec 9, 2008)

***SHIVER***

So so sorry for the loss of your doe and that you had to deal with such a stressful emergency situation. 

Was the fetus born alive? (just curious?...)

So glad you got the healthy doeling out. 

I hope it's not something thrown by your buck! (as someone suggested).

Life just makes no sense sometimes.

Yikes, I am so glad that this sort of thing only happens once in a while. Being a newbie, I think yes, I would probably sell my goats if I had encountered this on my first kidding (or second or third even!)

So sorry for your loss....

Best,
Alisa~


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