# Pale Eyelids



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I have a doe with pale eyelids. I ran a fecal and nothing showed up.

What else can cause anemia besides worms?


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I think they can have worms that are causing anemia without them showing up on a fecal. Is this goat a light-skinned goat? My pink-skinned goats have pale membranes, compared to the other goats.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Did she recently kid so that she lost the blood during kidding and hasn't built back up? Recent injury?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

No injuries, but yes she kidded about 3 weeks ago.

I think I read that liverflukes can cause anemia, but they are not prevalent around here.


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

I too have goats with pale eyelids and nothing showing up on fecals, even when I labbed them. I wormed anyway, better that than a dead goat, but looking at all my goats eyelids, they are all a little different, some are light, some are darker. I was thinking maybe I'm just not any good at reading eyelids.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I was reading about deer having liver flukes on the MI DNR website. Can't lice cause anemia? Since I started using Cydectin at 1cc per 10 lbs per vet instructions, I have not seen pale eyelids. All are bright pink regardless of skin color.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

swgoats said:


> I was reading about deer having liver flukes on the MI DNR website. Can't lice cause anemia? Since I started using Cydectin at 1cc per 10 lbs per vet instructions, I have not seen pale eyelids. All are bright pink regardless of skin color.


1cc per 10 lbs? How do you even get that in a doe that weights 150 lbs? Which form of Cydectin are you talking about? That would make a difference as the strengths are different!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

The pour on. I haven't had any trouble drenching it. The drenching gun makes it easier. The vet said that was what A&M was recommending now. I've been using it at that dose for over a year now. It is easy to figure and is working, so I haven't switched to the lower dose.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Some lice can cause anemia.
http://www.jackmauldin.com/controling_lice.htm


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## mamatomany (Aug 7, 2008)

What you see on slides is eggs. You most likely have adult hc sucking the blood and no eggs are showing up on the slides.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Since I started using Cydectin at 1cc per 10 lbs per vet instructions
.............................

I would not start down this path. Vet directions in most cases is exactly what happened to our inability to use Ivermectin now. Fecal yourself or ask your vet to give your egg numbers and identify them on a chambered slide. Move to the 1cc per 22 pounds and worm orally. In 7 to 10 days refecal, did you get a 99% kill?

There is no way moving from Texas to Indianna that your worm burdens would be worse there, with resistance to Cydectin like this. Sorry but he is guessing, no way does he have numbers of kill with this new lower dose to prove it or that the old way didn't work, he is taking info he has heard on doubling the dosages of wormers for goats, from cattle dose, and giving this to you for Cydectin Cattle pouron. Why would you use a vet for advice for day to day management of your goats instead of breeders doing it for about 100 years on this forum?

What numbers are you all talking about with the FAMACHA chart as to being anemic? Do you have baseline numbers on your does as individuals to see if they have changed? That is how I use an anemia chart, not a one size fits all. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

She's somewhere between a 3 and a 4.

She is a 2 yo FF that had triplets. She is a large doe who was in good condition last fall. The last month of her pregnancy, she really started to lose condition. She was wormed with Ivomec Plus at 100 days bred. She was wormed with Cydectin when she kidded. She milks about 8 or 9 lbs per day. Appetite is good.

I'm not sure what else to do or look for.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I don't really see how overdosing could cause resistance. Under dosing yes, but overdosing?


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

You may want to have her blood tested. See if she's really anemic or is in some kind of organ failure. Overdosing won't cause resistance, but it could cause liver or kidney issues, especially when you consider that the carrier for the pour-on anthelmintics is petroleum based. . . The best moxidectin product you can give your goats orally is Cydectin injectable and the dose is 2.5 ccs per 100 lbs.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

tlcnubians said:


> You may want to have her blood tested. See if she's really anemic or is in some kind of organ failure. Overdosing won't cause resistance, but it could cause liver or kidney issues, especially when you consider that the carrier for the pour-on anthelmintics is petroleum based. . . The best moxidectin product you can give your goats orally is Cydectin injectable and the dose is 2.5 ccs per 100 lbs.


If she was in some kind of organ failure, wouldn't I see more than pale eyelids and some lost condition?


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

We had a Nubian doe many years ago that was in liver failure (found out by doing a blood test) and the only sign was a scruffy coat and inability to keep her weight on. I was able to treat her with milk thistle and she survived, amazingly enough.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

It is hard to say why a doe is losing condition if she's milking well. With her already having lost condition and now milking about a gallon a day, she may simply not be able to take in enough volume of the feed you offer to keep/increase body condition. Try adding a little bit of a concentrated, high energy food. I fed some high energy senior horde feed (rice bran type feed) to our Jelly bean, who has been skinny all her life and started milking like crazy right after kidding. It helped her not loose too much weight and now, 3 months into her lactation, she's still milking like crazy, but able to keep up her (not too high!) body score on the regular ration.


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## trnubian (Mar 12, 2008)

Giving your does a higher dose of cydectin can eventually lead to resisitance. Some of the worms will become resistant to the wormer dose and create more worms with the same resistance. Therefore will will have to increase the dose MORE in order to kill those worms that are resistant to a the originally higher dose. This is the reason we have worms resistant to so many wormers and it will continue.
If you use a wormer at the correct dose as long as possible with good result there will still be resistance built but we will be able to increase doses more slowly. This way we don't get worms resistant to a new drug within very few years. That and as previously mentioned, it is easier on the animals' system.
Clear as mud?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually it is my experience that the timing is far more important than the dose.
You have to worm on a schedule that gets the egg layer and THEN again to get the eggs that hatch.
Most products do nothing to eggs or stages that are buried in the lining of the gut and protected with a mucous layer. This is the real problem people have that cry 'resistant parasites' ...no...you did not get rid of eggs that then hatched and filled the niche of the adults you did kill. There are chemical signals from adult reproductive females that keep the other stages suppressed and waiting in the wings as long as they are laying eggs and doing well. Once you rid the animal of that feedback to the resident population they hasten maturity and just go to work right where the parent generation left off. Parasites have incredibly complex strategies!

There is no correct dose on goats since no research has been done. 
You have to fecal to know what works and what does not and not just once. Over and over during the entire year for each age group since the reproductive strategies of the parasites are different for different conditions. Take samples often and make extensive notes. You will NOT remember. 

It is poor understanding of the life cycle and vulnerable stages of the parasite you are treating that leads to resistance but most people shouting resistance are using the products incorrectly and far more than dose issues- they don't use them on a schedule that effects what they are after.

Lee


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

That makes sense to me Lee. The vet originally told me to worm *weekly* at that dose - this was in Texas last January when I lost my favorite bred doe. I didn't but did go 2-3 weeks between doses for several months. Then found I could go longer and longer. Of course now, I have no pasture right now - we have to plant it. And we did get freezes even if it was a mild winter, so it is a new ball game.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

There's also the matter of some goats being more resistant to parasites than others. Ideally you want to choose the animals that are the most resistant. They can carry a heavier load of parasites with fewer side affects while other, less resistant goats can be killed or sickened by fewer worms.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

I have never given over 10cc to even our largest Boer buck ,That's a lot of Cydectin wormer for dairy goats !


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

How's your doe doing Cindy? Hope she's doing good!


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

She's doing fine. Eating well, milking well. Nothing on fecal. Just has pale eyelids. Body condition has improved a tad.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Try some nutritional yeast from the health food store. I used that on a doe I could not get over anemia. She pinked up very quickly.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Not sure what "nutritional yeast" is, Angie. She gets Diamond V yeast with her mins, along with kelp.

Perhaps I should send her poop off for a Baremanns (sp?) test just to be sure?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Brewers-Yeast-Nutritional-Yeast/M003476.htm

I think it is different from the Diamond V product, but not for sure. It just has super high levels of B vitamins.


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