# Sudden death in Feb. doeling



## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I lost my favorite doeling today. Naomi was a Nubian doeling born on 2/27/11. She's the one I saved from the brink of death from hypothermia the day she was born. She's also the one who went Jr. GCH twice at shows. History: She was put in with the buck last month, along with her sister and two other doelings. Christmas day, a LM doeling and her dam who were both in different pens went off feed. The doeling was coughing. I treated both with B1 and Nuflor. Both responded well. Yesterday a family brought their Feb doeling here to be bred and I put her in with with the buck and doelings including Naomi. The doeling came with clean health papers for her and her herdmates. She got along exceptionally well with my goats. She shows no signs of respiritory or other illness. They brought their own bale of alflafa/grass hay which I mixed with the same type hay I'd been feeding my goats. This morning, everybody came to food and looked OK. This afternoon at 4 PM, I went out to feed the goats and found her laying along side the goat house and she didn't get up to eat. Her sister was up, but also didn't come to food. I went in the pen to check things out and Naomi was unable to get up. I pulled her out of the pen and took her temp which was low 97F. She rolled over on her side and did not hold her head up. i gave her a shot of B1 and she reacted by shaking. She then began labored breath and died. My DH then told me he had seen a goat in the pen this afternoon with her head up to the shy, but he had thought she was just looking at the roof. Before she passed, I could see that Naomi had diarreah by her anus from earlier and a few bubbles by her mouth. I took all my doelings out of the pen and put them by themselves. I gave the sister Nuflor since she was coughing and not eating. I later held a little grain for her, which she ate, so she's not totally off feed. I called a fellow goat breeder here and she thinks Naomi's lungs may have been compromised because of her hypothermia at birth and she could not handle pneumonia.
I'm now wondering if I've had some strain of pneumonia in my herd and it just hit these goats today or if the healthy looking visitor could have brought some form of pneumonia to my goats. I'm also wondering if she could have had some kind of reaction to the new hay. It's a sad day.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm so sorry.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Very sorry for your doeling Kathie. I have no idea other than an necropsy that might tell you what is up. 
Tam


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Kathie that is very sad. So sorry to hear that.
Hope her sister pulls out of it quickly. 
Sorry to say I always suspect a newcomer in sudden illness and the truth may be that your fellow breeder is correct. Interstitial pneumonia is quick and silent and it affects those with trauma to the lungs more readily because of the thickened and scarred tissue around the air sacs.


Lee


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry about your loss - necropsy may be in order.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

This one won't be necropsied because she's been laid to rest in the woods. I need to get me a sharper knife so I can do it myself in the future. If I lose another one, I'll definately either do it myself or take the body to the vet, though I'm not too sure if he could give me any answers. She was vaccinated with CDT as a baby, so I suspect either pneumonia or maybe she got hurt somehow, though there was no sign of trauma and I never observed the goats fighting.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm now kicking myself for not moving my doelings out before I put her in. The new doeling might just be a coincidence, but at least I'd know for sure.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm very sorry.  

Yes, when an animal has been sick at all recently I won't expose them to other goats. Even if the new goat isn't sick or only has something mild, it could be too much for an animal that is compromised.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Your doe didn't catch anything in 24 hours and is dead from a new commer....but what are you thinking putting a new doe right into the pen with your goats anyway! Not just for the health of the new goat, but your herd. You can see symptoms of pasturella caught at shows by the morning or so after the show, but even it doesn't give you death that day. Interstitial in goats is like say someone with AIDS has pnemocystis, it is nearly always an auto immune problem in the animal.

With problems with pnemonia in the herd you might want to use a feed through tetracycline during the dry time and fall until spring in young does....and vaccinate for pasturella. Vicki


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

So sorry you lost her, and I hope everyone else stays healthy.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

No help here, but sorry you lost her. And I agree with some of the others, I would have gotten a necropsy done. And if you have no real confidence in your vet, get it done at a university. Again, sorry.


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## Drycreek goats (Sep 8, 2009)

so sorry.Have had lambs die like that had been ill as little babies.So far have only ever lost one doe that Dad set a 1700 lb bale of hay down on.Knock on wood!!


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I lost one of my fall doelings just like that a few days ago. She had been struggling as a baby, but was doing great now (just under 3 months old), and then suddenly I found her dead in the pen in the morning. I hate it when I feel I didn't get a 'fighting chance', but if I'm honest, I have learned over the years it is something that happens quite regularly to those animals that you are so proud of saving when they are little. I've had it with calves and goats that that animal that you drag along, treat often and keep going, is either getting sick herself and doesn't have the immune system or enough healthy lung/intestinal tissue to fight a common disease (so she dies of something 'simple' later), or, worse, she's one of those animals that will keep on shedding bacteria because she's always under the weather and as a result you will lose your best animal in the pen with her. I have no solution. I'm an idiot and fight for every animal, but I do wonder sometimes if it's worth it in all cases.... Proof: I have my best doeling in the basement right now. From the same pen as the doeling that died 3 days ago. Found her sick and too cold at 5 AM this morning in the barn (she was fine when I checked in the barn at midnight) , and I just hope I can save her. This one of course has never been sick and has done nothing but smile, grow and look good all her 3 month long life so far..... Not a good day here either...


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm so sorry you lost her.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Sorry for you loss. This goes for Trysta too.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Trysta, sorry you lost your doeling and I hope the other one makes it. Naomi was treated for hypothermia at birth, but then didn't have to be babied along. She got through our extremely wet spring and the stress of travelling to two goat shows just fine. That was why I was so surprised to see her succumb so quickly without my seeing any symptoms beforehand. I've seen very young kids die quickly, but by the time they are 10 months old, they usually show signs of illness which I can treat before I lose them. I do think birth trauma can set them up to be overly reactive to pneumonia. I lost a doeling several years ago who had been born 10 days premature after she picked up swine pneumonia at a show. I didn't have her necropsied, but another person who lost a goat from that show had his doeling tested. Naomi's sister, Magnolia is doing well today, having responded to the Nuflor.
Vicki: is it safe to feed tetracycline feed to bred does?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, it is how you pull your herd out of an abortion storm. Vicki


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## Blackberry Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Ummm..... Sorry to go off topic. Could you explain what an abortion storm is? I don't know what that is.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

When you have more than 2 abortions in a few weeks time. Especially if the does were bred by the same buck right after each other. Especially when using a new buck who has bred another herd or after your buck has bred another herd, or your buck has bred a new doe in your herd and the does bred after her abort.

Because my bucks breed so many does I routinely put them on feed through tetracycline in the winter, this stops most sexually transmitted diseases, where does would get put on systemic (shots) of tetracycline and then put on crumbles only if there was abortions in the herd. I rarely do add older does anymore but anyone who came here who had kidded before, it would be part of quarantine, rounds of tetracycline for this very reason. 

And yes we had an abortion storm before that makes me so cautious. Vicki


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki, when you feed medicated crumbles, how do you do this to insure that each goat gets the right dose?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Like I do everything with goats, guesstimate  First I don't co-mingle ages. My kids from last year will live together in a pen until they are all 2nd fresheners and then they will move into the main dairy barn stall with the older does....the 'older' does now consist of 2 to 5 year olds, 9 of them. So I would just walk out and weigh the smallest doe and the largest doe and average that, times it by 9 (the amount of does) and that is my weight....add it to a smaller amount of grain than they are used to eating, put the remainder of the grain in a sticky sweet feed....add the crumbles and shake the bucket until it is well mixed...feed it. I feed so little grain that competition for it is fierce and you could put ground glass in it and they still would eat it 

I have no luck adding anything to milkstand grain...it is the one time my girls are simply picky. I also can get a product medicated for calves which is a textured feed and my boys are put on that some years, I just make sure to add ammonium chloride to it. Does who are due in the next several weeks would be given systemic shots first, for 5 days 3.5cc per 100 pounds subq of any 200 mg tetracycline and then started on crumbles. Since they then are on milkstand grain, milk withdrawal for the full 10 days.......I would medicate the rest of the pregnant girls while the milking girls are out on the milkstands. Can you tell I have done this once or twice  Vicki


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

It always stinks to lose a goat!! So sorry! I would lean towards hay/stress/feed/coincidence of new goat, being your culprit. I had a doe die of stomach issues in 24hrs like that. evening milking = finer than frog hair, morning milking = wont stand up, stomach pains, some mucus stool that appeared like stomach lining, that evening = deader than a doornail...And that was WITH treatment. Still have no idea what set her gut off. Necro showed only intesuseption (twisted gut) which could have been the cause or the result of gut/bacterial upset. It was awful!!! Also!! Just because a goat has had CDT vacc does NOT mean it CANT or wont get it!!!! Any sudden feed change, stress, weed, toxin etc can cause a stomach upset ESPECIALLY in a weak immune state or a weaker animal and a stomach upset can lead to bacterial upset/overgrowth, leading to serious gut damage and even death.


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## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

Sorry :down,I hate things like this to happen and I dread the day on my soon to be 10 year old doe.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

> Necro showed only intesuseption (twisted gut)


With intussusception, you actually have a telescoping (one part sliding into another, like when you collapse a telescope) of the intestine, which, if untreated, will kill you within a few days (happens in people, too, by treatment, of course, I mean something to cause intestine to "un-telescope," oftentimes, that means surgery). A twisting would be torsion/volvulus, which is a different thing. In dogs, that's what they call "bloat"...you get the first part, like you see in goats, with gas causing distension of the stomach, but then the stomach rotates, causing all sorts of additional problems (imagine twisting a balloon into separate sections, and now nothing can get from one section into another...the digestive tract is your balloon). In a horse with colic, you have a lot of different possibilities, both intussusception and torsion among them.


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## J-Basqo (Oct 26, 2007)

Ok yes sorry was just trying to simplify since that is a big foreign word!!!lol It was telescoped. Looked like it was swallowing itself and she had actually passed chunks of lining before bms quit.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

hsmomof4 said:


> > Necro showed only intesuseption (twisted gut)
> 
> 
> With intussusception, you actually have a telescoping (one part sliding into another, like when you collapse a telescope) of the intestine, which, if untreated, will kill you within a few days (happens in people, too, by treatment, of course, I mean something to cause intestine to "un-telescope," oftentimes, that means surgery). A twisting would be torsion/volvulus, which is a different thing. In dogs, that's what they call "bloat"...you get the first part, like you see in goats, with gas causing distension of the stomach, but then the stomach rotates, causing all sorts of additional problems (imagine twisting a balloon into separate sections, and now nothing can get from one section into another...the digestive tract is your balloon). In a horse with colic, you have a lot of different possibilities, both intussusception and torsion among them.


Sorry OT, but this reminded me of something and I have to share. At one of the clinics I worked, we had a dog come in with cassette tape coming out of both ends, and was very sick.  The owners couldn't afford surgery, but one of the doctors fell for the dog, and paid for her surgery, then adopted her out. She had intussuscepted in multiple places in her intestines. She came back, skinny as heck, and had to have yet another surgery to fix another intussusception that we don't know the cause of. After that we kept her at the hospital and got her back into perfect shape before she got to go home. So, foreign bodies can cause this too. Also, dogs get both things as well.


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## Xtra (Jan 1, 2010)

So so very sorry for your loss!


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