# Opening Herd Books and ND overheigth issues... yet again.



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Below is the year end report for the Registration committee. Yet again they are talking about opening herd books and 'next years goals : Open more herdbooks".

Also have you being reading the info on breeders having to turn paperwork in to ADGA for breed character DQ (disqulifications). So does this mean your over heigth ND buck on appraisal or at a show, you then have to forfiet your ADGA paperwork? Does this effect his progreny that is in the ADGA books? Is this just going to be for those who show or those who appraise? If you nubian is apprasied with a breed fault for head will you send her paperwork back to ADGA? We show against does who do not really have pendulous ears, yet they are a breed fault, those with more ear control you really going to send back in your paperwork on your Nubian bucks? 

Will opening the herd books be done in committee and then agreed on or not by our directors? I would hope this is something the whole of ADGA votes on. I would hope they would come to the individual associations about this. I would hope that the INBA comes together to keep our Nubian herd book closed, we are the herd that is most effected by the opening of it.
...................................................................

YEAR END REPORT Date ____8-31-2011 
> > COMMITTEE: Registration 
> > COMMITTEE CHAIRPERSON: Daniel Considine 
> > COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Susan Brennan; Valerie Ciesynski, Brent Dietrich,
Diane Gray, 
> > Don Marston, Ruth McCormick, Jennifer Mellett, Greta Meyer, Patricia
Moore, 
> > Donna Palmer, Tamara Rousso, Tom Rucker, Nina Schafer, 
> > 1. STATEMENT OF GOALS AND OBJECTIVES FOR THE YEAR: 
> > I. Consult with Office on Issues 
> > II. Evaluate possible Changes 
> > a. OPEN HERDBOOKS 
> > b. AGS Registration of progeny of semen collected with AGS registration. 
> > c. Pursue Paperless registrations. 
> > d. Work with other committees to finish policies on RFIDs in place of
Tattoos. 
> > e. Guernsey breed registry 
> > f. Work more on ND oversize issue 
> > 2. SUMMARY OF COMMITTEE WORK AND ACTIVITIES FOR THE YEAR: 
> > A. Chairman reviewed couple of unusual situations with ADGA Manager. 
> > B. Discussed if another attempt should be made to survey ND breeders
about Oversize issue. Majority against trying again. 
> > C. Decide to prepare wording for when goat develops a DG BS trait.
Decided not to include DQ that are not BS. 
> > D. Discussed possibility of accepting AGS collection forms and also the
implications of members registering with AGS using the AGS forms, then
reregistering with ADGA a goat that would not have been registered directly
with ADGA. No action recommended at this time. 
> > 3. FINANCIAL STATEMENT - COMMITTEE EXPENSES: 
> > None 
> > 4. PROBLEMS ENCOUNTERED: 
> > 5. DECISIONS REQUIRING BOARD ACTION: 
> > A. The owner of an animal that develops a breed specific
disqualification that, had it been present at time of application would have
prevented it from being eligible for registration as outlined in 10 above,
shall surrender its papers to 
> > the ADGA office. If the animal is eligible for a different herdbook, for
the cost of a certificate revision fee, the owner may request the animal be
moved to the appropriate herdbook. Any offspring registered prior to the
change in the parent's registration status will have no change in their
registration status. Offspring not yet registered prior to the change in the
parent's registration 
> > status would need to meet current guidelines for 
> > registration/recordation based on the revised registration status of the
parent, if applicable. 
> > B. Online registrations can be purchased as "Paperless" at $1 less than
online prices with certificates issued. 
> > These registrations would be designated as "paperless" in ROSS. 
> > There would need to be a certificate purchased at the standard duplicate
fee (currently $4) if the goat is transferred. 
> > A notice by email will be sent to member with tattoo and name, as well
as registration number (this would be a modified Stamped Duplicate). 
> > Discussion: The service is used by all the beef registries and in the
American Angus Association 91,000 of their 297,000 registrations last year
were "electronically stored". 
> > We could just automatically send the email stamped duplicate which does
have the registration number on it. Or add to the congratulation popup, so
that for goats registered paperless, the Name and Tattoo also appear rather
than only the registration number. 
> > This would be used by herd owners to catch up registrations and in herds
where goats just stay in the barn, produce kids and milk. The tattoo related
to the registry number is what the herd owner would use to keep records
accurate and continue the progeny in our registry 
> > 6. WORK TO BE COMPLETED BY NEXT YEAR'S COMMITTEE: 
> > A. GG request 
> > B. Open more herd books 
> > 7. LONG RANGE GOALS (5 YEARS) FOR COMMITTEE: 
> > 8. A review of the GG request will be just before convention. 
> > CHAIRPERSON'S SIGNATURE_________Daniel
Considine


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

*Re: pening Herd Books and ND overheigth issues... yet again.*

Vicki, what exactly does 'opening a herd book' mean?


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

*Re: pening Herd Books and ND overheigth issues... yet again.*



Trysta said:


> Vicki, what exactly does 'opening a herd book' mean?


Usually it means that animals can be admitted to the registry when they do not have two registered parents. I would assume they would have to meet some sort of criteria, perhaps even be inspected, and then could be admitted for registry. Or there might be other rules to allow these basically grade animals into the purebred registry.

When you are starting a new breed, say for example miniature horses which were started in the early 50s to 60s, you keep your herd book open so that you can gather in as much stock that meets the breed standard as possible. Once you have enough breeding animals in the population, you close your herd books so that only those animals that have two registered parents can be entered in the herd. If you open up your herd books, I would guess that either you don't have enough breeding animals in the population, OR there may be some valuable bloodlines in the grade population that you want to gather in.

Or, and I am in no way saying this is what is happening, you have a vested interest in allowing the grade animals in - like, you have an entire herd of them and want to register them. I'm just trying to point out some pros and cons, and again I am not saying that is happening at all.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Like LaMancha's in ADGA. You come into the LaMancha herdbook as an American Grade, get graded up and in 4 or 5 generations of correct breed character (mostly ears) you then are Purebred. (A purebred animal just 6 generations from anything (meat, dairy you name it) really want to add that to your linebreeding program? All other herdbooks are closed, meaning that other than dishonest breeders, you can be generations an American Nubian, but you will never be a Purebred Nubian. 

The reason this is much more a Nubian fight than other breeds, is because of Boers and the does who are now American Nubian who do have boer blood in them. It really is because of the open Recorded Grade book, which is what should have been shut down years ago when the boers hit America. Accepting any Native on Appearance (NOA) goats shouldn't be allowed, all grade animals should be experimental (two ADGA breeds). 

This is also much more a Nubian fight because of money. Unlike any of the other breeds who have proven themselves that American's of their breed or equal or superior, the American Nubian has not....they want what the Purebred folks have and have not earned it.

I know if this goes through it will be very good for AGS, where real Purebred Nubians will go to be dual registered....we will also fight ADGA to not change the designation code....so a purebred nubians registration numbers will still be N and American Nubians even though they will say Purebred on the top of paperwork will still carry AN. Changing the name at the top of the paperwork doesn't mean we all don't know you still came from American ancestory, it still will be a discrimination until they prove themselves.

I can see website and marketing now.....on Nubian Talk we just went through the whole bad bite fault thing...now folks have photos of their does bites on sales sheets, G6S is now being tested for an marketed on websites...now it's going to be 'we were Purebred before they opened the herd books'  And we are dual registered with AGS, who only allows Purebred Nubians.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Okay, I think I'm understanding most of what you say. I am still struggling to understand and support the way goat herd books and goat breeding works. I understand populations are small, but I think there's a lot of risk to all the inbreeding and opening up herdbooks to 'random-animals-that-look-the-part'. You don't know what all's in that animal genetically but with all the linebreeding going on, I'm afraid you'll find out real soon. That's good if they're good traits, but a disaster (and hard to do something about) when it's a bad trait. like the bites. Next time I'm bored (hahahahahaha) I'm going to dive into the breeding and details of registering. I definitely have a lot to learn!


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Sure is going to cause trouble for AGS who is currently accepting ADGA purebreds into their herd books.

I only disagree with you on the idea of mini experimental herd books only accepting ADGA American or purebred animals. That would create a logistics nightmare for many of us as grades have been allowed in the herd books of the mini registries from the beginning. I would in essence have to run two separate herds. I have fourth or fifth generation minis that may have one or two grade ancestors. It would be preferable, and a simpler transition IMHO, for ADGA to simply open purebred herd books that accepted purebreds from the mini registries that meet decided upon breed standards. A little OT, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in as I have been thinking about it.


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## ksalvagno (Jul 8, 2011)

I have to admit that I'm still having trouble understanding all this stuff. It is so much more complicated than the alpaca registry. If they add something new, why not have the new group DNA all the goats. We have to DNA all alpacas registered so there is no question if they are an alpaca and who their parents are.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

How many alpaca's are there in the US, how many dairy goats? How many alpaca's have been DNA registered or DNA verified, that number in dairy goats is very very tiny.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I bet the French Alpine people just LOVE this idea, LOL!!!!


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

What is wrong with the way it is now? If you want to raise Americans you can. Americans can be awesome and beat a PB. If that happens, then good for them. I can also choose not to have Americans. I personally want PB only because it is simple and uncomplicated. I am against making it more complicated.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Tracy, note the chair of the committee  V


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

> Tracy, note the chair of the committee Smiley V


I caught that when you first posted this Vicki!

Yep Tracy, that battle could be interesting!


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh I DID, I DID ;-)


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

I am curious to learn of the reason(s) behind opening the herd books. Why does this need fixing?

What is the rationale for this? What are the benefits to the breed(s)? 

The addition of Nigerians, Boers and other meat goat mixes being added into the gene pool by Native On Appearance and other ways causes me concern.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

On our own forum Tim, just yesterday, a gal who purchased a miniature Alpine, without papers....she now thinks she is tall enough that maybe she is a full sized Alpine. Will she then be NOA?

I think we should start talking about this on the INBA list, so that directors and others on this committee, and who will be voting for this (who also happen to maybe have Americans) know that this is not something anyone we know wants who breeds Nubian's.

Being on Breed Standards for years both in INBA and ADGA, this talk has always stayed in committee, this year we tried to get the ND breeders to understand what the registration committee was trying to do. First you had directors running for office who were publically saying that if the change to the breed standard height (which was committee work we were working on right then) went through that they would vote no....and all the while the registration committee was working on wording of the pulling papers of DQ animals...openly we had folks tell us they were using and had DQ overheight ND bucks in their paperwork, including if my memory serves me a buck who is in or was in either colorama or spotlight this year. Coming from AGS they said "we thought it was just a guideline, not a real DQ". If the ND folks would get behind the move, and move their overheight to Very Serious Fault it would make the registration committee obvious attack on their breed, moot. But you have very vocal and obviously not forward thinking ND breeders, even on committee that although she said openly she has OH animals in her pedigrees, her very currant pedigrees, she won't budge and is very vocal in the ND community. Shoot yourself and your bloodlines in the foot???

With both of these issues, pulling paperwork for DQ's, not moving the maximum height of ND bucks away from the meat goat pygmy pet registries and the continued talk of opening herdbooks and what I would like to know is who charged the committee with working on opening the herdbooks?


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## Red Mare (Apr 23, 2011)

Vicki-
I am trying to muddle though all this- forgive my perhaps ignorant questions. 
The committe is attacking the ND's because they (the committe) want to make it a DQ and pull papers?
The ND breeders aren't cohesive and their lack of response is allowing a gap instead of making it a VSF?

Personally, after much of my own personal reading, and from where the 1 inch only difference between doe/buck came from In the breed standard, I am all for upping the height.
It's also interesting to note all the other breeds have a much higher difference then the 1 inch as well. 

We have much of this problem in the mini horses (the height game) and really, minis are Not as a whole getting taller then the 34 inches they are supposed to be even though some of the Best horses out there really measure in the 34.5-35 range. They produce smaller correct horses that add a great deal to the breed as a whole. 


Really, you have two very diverse groups trying to talk about one breed, but that are wanting to creat two different types of goats.
One group wants that ourstanding mammary and production, the other wants the smaller companion goats that are also a family milker. 
That's not an easy group of cats to herd. 

I am new to the breed though, and to goats, so I can't offer much really!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> On our own forum Tim, just yesterday, a gal who purchased a miniature Alpine, without papers....she now thinks she is tall enough that maybe she is a full sized Alpine. Will she then be NOA?


That was me, and I was not planning to do that, but I can see where someone might.


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## tendermeadowsnigerians (Sep 8, 2010)

We have had nigerians for 10-ish years and dont breed or register overheight animals, but you do end up with kids that grow too tall even from parents within the height requirements, most likely because the breeder 2 or 3 generations back didnt really care about height. ADGA will never stop people from breeding & registering overheight ND's, there are just too many people out there who dont care about anything other then breeding cute little pets and "papers" make then more valuable.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> that this is not something anyone we know wants who breeds Nubians


Vicki, this was a subject that was brought up on INBA member list and was aired last year. There is a noisy few that supported the opening of the Nubian herd book to allow in a favorite doe or two because she has 20 or more ancestors of purebred or American ancestors and they consider it is as "purebred" as the papered purebreds. I don't know of any strictly purebred breeders who are interested in opening the herd books. The only ones for it are those who have Americans or both.

It is my fear that this matter will cause a rift within ADGA as the members will be pulled into turmoil and infighting.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Why to me Tim, it is only being talked about at the committee level. Once again who charged the committee to work on this? I honestly do not know. I do know on committee we don't ever just make up stuff to work on. So what proposal was put before them to work on this? And should it not come from the membership or to me it should come from each breed associaiton, wanting to open the herd book, in their breed. Vicki


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I am one who certainly is opposed to opening the herd books!! I also am opposed to the NOA registrations - have experienced issues with people buying animals from me, that I chose not to register for one reason or another, then they get NOA papers. I have one animal in my area that I did register, she went JBDIS as a yearling, beautiful animal, but when she freshened she had a double orifice, so I pulled her papers and sold her as a backyard milker. I just didn't want a problem like that attached to my herdname. Long story, short, the people who bought her, got NOA papers on her. A vet who did health papers on her for a show, said she could still read my tattooes in her ears! So, far all the judges she's been under, haven't caught the defect. Anyway, why not just leave things alone. If we keep caving in to the whiners about AM vs PB, it won't be long til anything can get papers with ADGA.


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## Fiberaddict (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm coming at this from a horse-breeder's perspective....

What one of the German registries did was require ALL perspective non-purebloods to be examined. IF they passed, they were allowed to be bred, but any offspring HAD to pass the same exams - and they were/are rigorous.

Could something like that be instituted here? Open the books, but only allow certain animals to be bred into the book. It would require a testing committee - I'd imagine you'd have to have prospective does on milk tests (as well as LA - you want to be SURE you're only letting in the best of the non-PB Nubians in!)...not sure how you'd test Bucks; maybe only allow does to test? And then test the kids - both at, say, 6 months for temporary papers, then again at...well, for does, after freshining, for the permanent papers.

If you don't institute something like this, you'll be allowing goats like my Cashmere/Nubian cross in. She's NOA...but her udder is skewed. She puts milk in the pail, but *I* don't really want that fault being added to the PB registry (or...any registry. We have her daughter right now; she's by our PB Nubian buck, and looks like our PB Nubians. BUT....with her dam's faults we aren't going to do anything about papers. We'll breed her, to see how she milks, but the kids will either go in the freezer, or be kept as generic milkers.) 

Unless Nubians are in danger of being too in-bred, I don't see a reason to open the books....and if they were open, *I* would want some kind of requirements in place before allowing papers to be issued. Like...only other dairy breeds be allowed to test, or something.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

KJFarm said:


> I am one who certainly is opposed to opening the herd books!! I also am opposed to the NOA registrations - have experienced issues with people buying animals from me, that I chose not to register for one reason or another, then they get NOA papers. I have one animal in my area that I did register, she went JBDIS as a yearling, beautiful animal, but when she freshened she had a double orifice, so I pulled her papers and sold her as a backyard milker. I just didn't want a problem like that attached to my herdname. Long story, short, the people who bought her, got NOA papers on her. A vet who did health papers on her for a show, said she could still read my tattooes in her ears! So, far all the judges she's been under, haven't caught the defect. Anyway, why not just leave things alone. If we keep caving in to the whiners about AM vs PB, it won't be long til anything can get papers with ADGA.


If something like this occurs again, tattoo CULL in her ears over your original tat's..might help.



Fiberaddict said:


> I'm coming at this from a horse-breeder's perspective....
> 
> What one of the German registries did was require ALL perspective non-purebloods to be examined. IF they passed, they were allowed to be bred, but any offspring HAD to pass the same exams - and they were/are rigorous.


That sounds like a good idea, but would probably take a lot of $$ and people power.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

While I am starting over with mostly unregistered/ soon to be recorded animals,I am against the opening of the herd books. While I was looking for a couple of Nubian milkers, I found several grades being sold as "purebreds" who so obviously had Boer breeding. Some of these does came with the reg apps all made out for NOA with a signed letter from local ADGA owners saying these girls met standards! AGH! To be American is bad enough, but purebred? 

I used to have Boers in addition to my Nubs, Alpines, and Oberhasli. I know what a Boer cross does to Dairy goats (ugh...all those extra teats!) I hate to see the dairy breeds destroyed.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Have to say I'm against it too, unless there is some compelling reason I am not aware of... there seems to be plenty of goats in all breeds, there does not seem to be a need to open herd books. 

In rabbits, the only way you can get the rabbit registered is to take the bunny to a trained person - either a judge or a registrar, both of which have to complete schooling and tests - and have them physically look at it and only then will they register it provided it meets requirements. If the rabbit has any defects it will not be registered. I always thought this was a pretty good system (although it was darned inconvenient for me, since I have to drive at least 2 hours to get anywhere at all) but as has been pointed out, it's expensive and requires a great many of volunteers to step up to the plate and get the schooling and testing necessary. However, if trained persons were to examine each and every goat in person, *then* I could maybe see opening up the herd book to allow that particular goat. 

But basically, this is a solution to a problem that does not exist (so far as I am aware). I can't see any reason to open up the herd book. Therefore there is no need to worry about how goats would be accepted. 

Does anyone know of any good reason to open them?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I think some people say purebred when they mean "full". I have grades not recorded with ADGA that are very Nubian. I call them full Nubian when I speak of them. They might have a smudge of something, but they have no appearance of being anything but Nubian. They have better Roman noses than some purebreds I've seen. Ears are long to the nose, but not way past and have some control that's what makes me think maybe there is a drop of something else. 

Purebred to me speaks of a long established pedigree, so if you don't have that you aren't purebred. Doesn't mean your aren't as good or better. I don't really understand why people want in the herd book so bad. For financial reasons? Or so they can show? There are nice affordably priced purebreds out there. No I can't pay $600 for a goat (unless I sell half my herd, lol), but I got several nice animals this year with good bloodlines in the $200-250 range. I can see fighting for recognition from the breed if you have a real shining star of a grade, but it doesn't sound like that is what is going on here...


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Or is there a desire on the registries part to take on more clientel/$$?


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Well, but the registry is non-profit. Of course they need enough cash flow to keep the computers running and the workers going, but in theory at least there should be no drive to make more money "just because". 

I suppose animal registries everywhere are struggling, so maybe there is some drive to register more... but only certain people are going to do that anyway. I've sold many registered miniature horses and I doubt that even one of them has been transferred to the new owner. Not everyone finds value in registration papers, so I don't believe that having more animals available to register will necessarily result in more fees gathered.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

> I call them full Nubian when I speak of them.


But, as far as I know, that is a term that has no meaning in the dairy goat world. (You hear of fullbloods in boers but not in dairy goats, and a fullblood boer is MORE pure boer than a purebred boer has to be.) And if it has no official meaning, what is the point? If someone said to me, "That's a full XXX breed" I would assume that meant that it was, well, fully that, as in, 100%. If someone is using that to refer to a grade goat whose breeding they don't know, it's misleading, regardless of what the goat looks like.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Baffled. How can it be that there is talk about opening herdbooks then, if apparently everybody on this forum is against it? Who wants this and why? I don't see any good coming out of it.

Ha and watch out. Just this evening, I was discussing what buck to use in the future for our one Nubian (well.......she looks Nubian, no papers on that lady, and with the udder that's on that doe, she shouldn't ever have any!). My daughter loves the ears on this very friendly (more of a pet than anything else) doe that we got for free from someone, but I wanted to just use either our LaMancha buck or a Saanen buck, offspring isn't going to be registered anyway. Then I got it: I told my daughter we'll ask the close by Boer Breeder for a buck and we'll start a new breed: the Boobian! On the other hand.....our Boobians could also come into the Nubian herdbook if it opens up.......... :twisted


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

Boobians! Bwahahahahaha! :laughcry

I'm thinking along the lines of "Boerbians" pronounced like "Bourbian" and bourbon... that's what we'll all need if all the herd books are opened up. My neighbor has some real goofy-looking "Alpines" with dragging udders... heavens, I hope no one wants anything he's got in their herd books. Sweet goats, but...


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Stacey, I know zilch about Boers. I just say full to not be confused with purebred. So many people don't understand the term grade. I guess I can just say Nubian and be done with it.

Another term I am beginning to hate is "mini". No body gets that a Mini Nubian is a medium size goat. It is really bad for marketing the breed. What else to call them though...


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## JamieH (Nov 29, 2010)

Well we can have standard Nubians, Mini Nubians and next will be teacup nubians. :biggrin


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Are people expecting them to be teeny like they expect with potbelly pigs? They just don't get that a potbelly is miniature IF compared to a full-sized, adult pig, but that still means it might weigh 200 pounds! Of course, the average person buying a potbelly might never have seen a full-sized, adult pig and have no clue how much bigger they are. So some "breeders" (I use the term loosely) like to say, "Oh, this is a teacup pig. If you feed it correctly, it will only grow to be 25 pounds!" By feed correctly, of course, they must mean starve it so that its growth is stunted or something.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

To people new to goats wanting a pet or backyard milker, they hear mini and they think it will be Pygmy or ND size. They want a bigger goat. If they come out, they realize they would actually like these medium size goats, but some won't come look.

Tea cup Nubians, wouldn't that be something! Lol


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

SherrieC was joking with me one day about Teacup/Pocket Goats. LOL We had a bunch of itty-bitty babies this year. I had a 3#, 4# and a bunch of 5# babies. She had a reeeeally little one about a month ago and said it was too bad they couldn't stay that small.  We could sell Pocket goats to rich people with too much money. They could dress them up and carry them around in their purses. Go into a fancy shmancy coffee house and the waiter says 'Would you like cream for you coffee?'...You say 'Nope, got my own!' and pull out your little teacup goat and set on the table and ~~SQUIRT! SQUIRT!~~ right into your coffee cup!! roflmbo 

I don't want the registry opened either. 'Boobians' would be part of the problem. It's American DAIRY Goat Association. I know that my PB Nubians are DAIRY. It's hard enough trying to get good udders and conformation on Nubians without adding more meat goat genetics and there's too many grades/NOA/etc that have boer in their backgrounds. It seems Nubians have notoriously been bred to Boer to add milk to the meat goat and to keep the 'look' also having pendulous ears and so that the cross can be sold easier--doelings as family milkers and bucklings as meat wethers. 
IMO--there's enough ways for dishonest people to already cheat the system. Why do we want to open it up for honest people to also do the same. ???


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I had a coupl eof Nubain does I bred to my (Full bred!) Boer buck for the added milk in the next generation. I had them registered as 50% Boer, NEVER ADGA. 

However, I saw an ad for double registered does- ADGA and USBGA!!!!!!!! AGH! Anything for money. sigh.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

The subject of overheight Nigerian Dwarfs was discussed at our Board meeting last year and that is why I publicly stated when running for reelection to the Board this year that I was very much against raising the height limit for the breed. These animals are dwarfs, they are not standards. One cannot extrapolate height differences between standard-sized bucks and does within a breed to this dwarf breed. 

Regarding opening herd books, even though it is listed as one of the things the Registration Committee discussed, please note that it is not listed under the "Decisions Requiring Board Action." So I'm not sure if the subject will even be brought up before the BOD for discussion or a vote. Where do I stand on the issue? I can see pros and cons to opening up the herdbooks. Agreed, there is a risk of making "purebreds" out of animals that may contain questionable genetics in their past; however, there are a lot of extremely good American dairy goats out there. Look no further than those that have graced the winner's circle at the National Show over the years, earned their milk stars and/or appraised excellent. For people who research the genetics of dairy goats they want to purchase or bucks they want to use in their breeding programs, ADGA Genetics provides all the information one needs to see how many generations back the breed stays true in an animal's bloodline. It's probably safe to say that every breed of dairy goat recognized and registered as a Purebred by ADGA and/or AGS today can boast the blood of another breed somewhere in its background.

Caroline


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Caroline, I would think with you being a director you would be privy by now, considering you are also on that committee if it is or isn't going to be discussed at convention. And until American Nubian's equal or exceed their wins compared to Purebreds (like some of the swiss breeds do), then and only then would anyone with Purebreds want to add their American status to their Purebred paperwork, which sells for more than American. It's up to the American breeder to end the stigma.

There is also a very well known story of a National Nubian winner with her bucks going unsold because she was 'just' and American. Until you see the major breeders breeding American bucks into their high dollar Purebreds, then and only then will I believe for one second this is anything anyone really wants but those breeding American does.

Once again, in committee, we are charged with working on projects.....so who charged your committee with bring up the opening of herdbooks, enough so it is also written down as work to be done next year also??


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## Red Mare (Apr 23, 2011)

tlcnubians said:


> The subject of overheight Nigerian Dwarfs was discussed at our Board meeting last year and that is why I publicly stated when running for reelection to the Board this year that I was very much against raising the height limit for the breed. These animals are dwarfs, they are not standards. One cannot extrapolate height differences between standard-sized bucks and does within a breed to this dwarf breed.
> 
> Caroline


Caroline- I appreciate you coming on and saying this. 
May I respectfully ask that the consideration be made that the 1 inch height difference was just carried over from the the Pygmies, and not based on any sort of true measuring of the breed?
I feel that it was just an arbitrary assignment, and considering the incredible genetics folks would just be throwing away (after getting as many as 3 to 4 crops of kids mind you who are also now... what? Paperless?) 
As well as the fact that this is the Only DQ not apparent at birth- these guys grow for 4 years.

I also don't agree that the current standards encourage "Hurry up and get them finished and then sell/hide them in the pasture!"

Again though, I am coming from an industry that struggled with the height challenge, but am new to the goat height challenge.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I've noticed that with Minis too. They grow for a long time. People think they have an idea of their height by a year, but you don't really.


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

Vicki - I am not on the Registration Committee (you can see the members of all the ADGA Committees listed on the Governance page on the website). I am chair of the Membership Committee and a member of the Products Committee and the Constitution & Bylaws Committee.

Caroline


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sorry Caroline, I thought you were on that committee. Well perhaps then as a director you know who or what group, charged that committee with discussing the opening of herdbooks?


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## tlcnubians (Jan 21, 2011)

No, I have no idea. Sorry. There are 14 people on the Registration Committee and the idea could have come from any one of them, or it could have come from discussions left over from the committee last year. It could have come from a member who isn't a member of the committee or it could have come from the Executive Committee. There are many options. If you know someone who is on the committee (such as Donna Palmer), you could ask them who broached the subject originally.

Caroline


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