# Soap Swap results....Green correct guess....Red incorrect guess



## NubianSoaps.com

Bar A is water and B is goat milk. Elizabeth (eam)......tester guessed correctly. 

Bar A is water and B is goat milk. Poverty knob (JL nichols)....tester guessed correctly.

Bar A is water and B is goat milk. Jenny M...tester guessed correctly

Bar A is goat milk and B is water. Vicki....tester guessed wrong.

Bar A is water and B is goat milk. Cindy Plantz.....tester guessed wrong.

Bar A is water and B is goat milk. Barb Vozar....tester guessed wrong.

The soap with the butterfly stamped on both sides is the water, the one with no markings is the GM soap. Michelle's soap tester guessed correctly.

Bar A is water and B is goat milk. Stacey Johnson (hsmomof4)............. tester guess correctly.

Bar A is goat milk and B is water. Heather Faye (faye farms) tester guessed correct.

X is milk and O is water............. Jennifer Downey (niteskyfarm) tester guessed correct.

Bar A is water and B is goats milk. LynnTheesfeld tester guessed wrong.

x is milk, 0 is water. Anita.......tester guessed correct.


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## NubianSoaps.com

*Re: Soap Swap....tester critiques and guesses*

Chandra Berg

Soap A=X..... Nice smell, has a great lather, but after a few washes, my skin was dry and tight. Soap B=O, again a nice smell, as well as a great lather, but with this soap, my skin is nice and soft. I think soap B is the goat milk soap. Oh and the soap was made by Jenny Malone of Thistle Hill Farm in Utah.
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Lynn's soap tested by Daniel......Here is my soap review. Both bars were packaged very nice, (shrink wrapped). Bar "A" was the more attractive of the two. I bathed twice a day during the work week. (I work in a Crime Lab, need I say more). Honest truth, there wasn't any difference between the two other than Bar "A" was prettier than Bar "B". Both lathered well and rinsed clean very quickly. So I'm basing my opinion more on appearance than substance. I say that Bar "A" is the goat milk soap.

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Karen guessing on Michelle's soap......First of all I was very surprised there wasn't more difference! But after several days using one soap on the right side, the other on the left, I have determined that the butterfly soap is made with water and the plain soap made with milk. And may I say how wonderful they are too!! I'm a little ashamed to get great soap for free - so thank you to all who participated, looking forward to the results

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Katie Slaven (Lamancha Lady guessing Jennifer's soap: When I recieved the soaps they were clearly marked X and O. With that being said this was incredibly hard decision as the texture and quality from both were amazing and that was all I could go on as I was sick with a cold. I have nothing but good to say about both bars. I could tell that the O bar didnt set as good as the X as it was a wee bit softer but non-theless incredible. Honestly would take either bar and use it again and would be honored to become one of the customers from this farm

As far my guess:
I am going to say bar X was the goat milk soap- while my grandmother- who did not have a cold strongly suggested that O as the goat milk one. Grandma tested incorrect 

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Nancy testing Barbs soap: I think that soap A is the milksoap and soap B is the water soap.

They are very similar as far as cleaning and how the skin feels afterward. I don't have real sensitive skin, so maybe someone with skin problems would tell the difference better.

My soapmaker suggested using the bar soap in my hair, which I've never thought about doing before. Soap A seemed to lather a little better than soap B. Soap B is softer than soap A, which I kind of like, though I saw that some of the soapmakers were complaining about that (which also clues me in that soap B may be the water soap, since people here are used to using milk). Soap A also had some white marks where the bubbles were (probably from the milk?), and soap B's bubbles were just the same color as the soap. For the most part, the two soaps are pretty much the same.
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David testing Cindy's soap: "A" creamier but little less lather than "B".

"A" daughter says skin less dry

Both great aroma, oatmeal in soap was good,

Guess A goat soap

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Lindsey testing Heathers soap: A is X...MILK
B is O...water

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Kassie testing Vicki's soap: My guess was that bar B was the goatmilk version. I was simply guessing based on color alone however, as I couldn't tell any differences in the feel of the soap during application or after. The quality of both seemed equal to me. I used them both for 3-4 showers and really liked them both exactly the same!

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Don testing Anita's soap, creamy lather and agreed with Lee's guess.

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Marion (Trysta) testing Poverty Knob (JL Nichols) soap........ agreed that we liked the X soap (A) better than the O soap (B), because we liked the lather and feel of it better. Both soaps cleaned well, of course, but the O (B) soap seemed to leave my skin somewhat dryer. Okay, so which is which? I sure HOPE the X soap is the goatmilk soap, because I WANT that to be the better one! 
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Lacia testing Elizabeth (EAM) soap...........anyway, I like "B"

I've been using them each on half my body, left and right, and I consistently like how the B side skin feels better. Its not major, but is noticeable and consistent. I also like the lather of B a little better. There's another test I'd like to do and keep forgetting in my rush. If I remember in the morning, I'll PM you quickly, otherwise this is my official report.

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Whitney (Red Mare) guessing on Stacy's soap..................I think that the goat soap was soap B. 
It was nicer on my skin, and not as drying as the other one was.


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## NubianSoaps.com

*Re: Soap Swap info...*

Unoffical testers:

Jacquee (Horsehair Braider) tested Vicki's soap: Both soaps had a great scent, so no difference there. Both had a nice "soapy" smooth feeling when dry, so no difference there. The bars were bigger than I imagined they would be so was favorably impressed with them that way. Both A and B had nice soap suds when used. They are actually quite similar in the way they feel when used during washing, however I *think* my skin is very slightly softer after using soap B.

My guess is that soap B is the goat milk soap........... Guessed wrong.

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Lee tested Anita's bars: I am going to say that bar number one or the bar she marked as X is goat milk.

Beautiful super creamy lather. Long rinse time with lovely cream effect after rinsing.
Lovely bars but the X bar is richer- lather is smaller more dense bubbling and takes longer to rinse and leaves more softness behind. Creamy is the best word.
Lovely product for my dry overworked overwashed hands. Lee guessed correctly.


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## NubianSoaps.com

We ran 50/50 until the last ones came in. If you read the cirituqes most admitted it was a guess only. I though this was great fun. Vicki


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## hsmomof4

Though it appears that most who had reasons (skin feels less dry with one over the other), as opposed to not being able to tell the difference, guessed correctly.  And there was a misinterpretation of a "clue" on the soap being softer, leading to an incorrect guess.  But yes, lots of fun!


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## nightskyfarm

I think this says a lot about the moisturizing effects of milk and goat milk in particular, but what about recipe? We all did not use the same recipe to create our soap. For a serious trial we would have just made a bunch of A and a bunch of B with the same recipe and sent it out. Because of that and the uniqeness of each soap, the critiques are WONDERFUL! and very much appreciated - Thank-you! to all the testers! I will say I will not be making a water-based soap any time soon. I think the milk based soap suits me better. I am going to conduct my own trial with the extra soap I have this summer. Just give away cut samples and ask for feedback from my customers. I'll let you know the results and I am not looking for guessing which is the milk soap or the water soap, just which did you prefer for moisturizing. Still think the milk soap will prove to be on top.


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## Guest

This surprised me also... but it was interesting.. I am giving my other two bars to a friend to test.. see if she can get it right.. 
Barb


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## kuwaha

This was fascinating !! (DGI comes up with all kinds of good stuff  ) I do have to say that if I hadn't been using one on one side of my body and the other on the other side I would never have been able to tell a difference!


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## MayLOC

I think if we knew which was which most people would have sub-consciously favored the milk based soap. After all you hear again and again claims of it being moisturizing and so wonderful for the skin and all. I would have been biased towards it, "wanting" it to come out on the top.
I had an ever so slight preference for one of my soaps... it was soap B (my water based soap) I really thought it would be the milk based one, because I thought the milk based "should be better". I really couldn't pinpoint any big differences in the two soaps. I have continued to use the one I slightly favored the past few days and I can say for sure now that it is for sure lasting longer. Both seemed equally as hard to me, but the water one isn't dissapearing as quickly.

I think this was a neat trial and was neat reading the comments and guesses. I also agree that each person's recipes/soaps were probably very different and it would be interesting for one person to send a little chunk to a few different people and see if they were in aggreement. 

Anyhow, it was a highlight for my February... so THANKS!! :biggrin And I still have soap left to enjoy for a good while yet!

Ya, I was giggling at the half one half the other; never thought about that. I just went with one a few days and then another a few days and then switched back to the original.
I will add that I used some of my regular liquid body soap today (haven't used since pre-soap swap)and my hands are very tight skinned and it will be interesting to see if I am itchy tonight. My hands haven't cracked and bled for the past week!


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## NubianSoaps.com

I have never made an all water soap until this batch for the swap, so I was suprised that I also couldn't tell the difference between the bars...I had my daughter put them into different colored soap savers, she only knew which color contained which bar. I didn't expect anyone to ever be able to tell my soap I sell only has 50% goatmilk as liquid in it, compared to the 100% bars I used to make, zero of my tester, buyers or those who reorder my soap ever knew I switched....but for me to not be able to tell at all with 100% water vs 100% milk....I was floored also.

I have no reason to quit doing it as I am doing it now at 50% milk, but I certainly after going back to frozen full milk, will never go back to that technique, quite honestly I hated that feeling of........................ is that lye really incorporated, kinda feels grainy still etc etc....Vicki


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## Trysta

This soap swap was so cool, and yes the results are interesting. I want to thank Poverty Knob for the great soap and for the little bag of laundry detergent: loved it! 

Anyway, this whole thing inspires me to make more soap but.....I'm sticking to the 100% goat milk soap for now!!! 

Marion


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## hsmomof4

I wonder, though, if you would be able to tell a difference better over a longer period of time. Not too long ago, I bought a bar of soap from someone, handmade, very nice soap, lovely lather. It too at least a week solid of using it in the shower for me to notice that my skin was drier. Dh noticed a little faster (he showers more frequently) and he did not know it wasn't a milk soap, he only knew it wasn't one of mine, and he said, "Get me a bar of your soap; this one is drying me out!"


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## fmg

I only shower every other day...maybe more frequent showering dries you out more, and so the milk soap is better for that?

I absolutely loved both soaps (plus the extra goodies my soaper gave me, boy was I spoiled!). I think it's safe to say that homemade soap is just awesome, goatmilk or not! I forgot to say, but the scent in both bars is wonderful!!

Hubby flunked at soap experimenting. A couple days before I put in my results, I said, "So which soap do you think is which". To that he replied-"I've only used one, and only like once or twice". Haha, dork. He has more sensitive skin than me, wish he would have stuck with it. 

That was a good idea, using one on one side of the body, other on the other side!!! Wish I would have tried that! I did one for a few showers, and the other for a few showers. I still have some of both. My goatmilk soap is sitting toward the bottom of the shower on a lower shelf (I don't have a tub in the shower I use) where I put it while using the watersoap. It now has some pockmarks from the water spraying because of how soft it is. I do like the texture, but see how it could not last quite as long.


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## hsmomof4

Nancy,
you didn't get my soaps, but I know that I would ordinarily allow my soaps to cure longer before selling them than I was able to cure them for this swap, so they are ordinarily quite a lot harder than what I sent to my tester, and I have had lots of feedback from customers on how long-lasting they are.


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## Aja-Sammati

:yeahthat Oh yeah! My soap was definitely not cured long enough, so I am thrilled that Karen liked it so much- thank you! Thrilled at her idea of testing on halves of her body- I never would have thought of that! I am also glad she though they were alike- I really didn't like the way the fragrance turned out in the water soap- it was weaker to me. btw- it wasn't Black Vanilla, it is Dragon's Blood, the BV didn't come in in time. 

I did use a recipe I sell & made a batch to fill my normal mold (I will now give away the extra water bars to people I don't like ). As to texture...I have wondered for a while about butteril ratios in relation to texture in finished, well cured soap as well as texture related to water discount. Oh for more time for experiments!

Thank you to everyone that did this!


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## MF-Alpines

This was great fun!!!! Yes, thank you to all the testers and to Vicki for taking the time to put up the remarks. 

Regarding the test, for this experiment, we all did not have to use the same recipe as each other, just use the same recipe for each bar with the exception of water vs milk since that was the only thing we were looking for......can you tell a difference between a milk soap and a water soap? So it was a valid experiment.

That being said, since 2/3's of the vote came in guessing milk soap correctly, I will still tell my customers all the "benefits" of goat milk soap. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!! :biggrin Even though that appears, according to my tester, not to be MY story. LOL!


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## Jenny M

I really hated my water soap after I used it a few times. But as I'm looking at it after a decent curing time it looks odd to me - the color not uniform & hard as a rock. I wonder if I weighed out the oils correctly. Maybe doubled up on the coconut & left out the shea or something. Checked the PH & it's in the good range at 8. I'm going to do some more experimenting & keep better notes this time.

Thanks for the experiment. A lot of fun & a good distraction for these cold winter days.


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## Guest

I also cure mine soaps longer and no matter what I like milk soaps better... I have never made water based soaps before this, but have used them.. purchased them from other soapers because I wanted to know if they were different//


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## LaManchaLady

My goat milk bar is gone. LOL. I still have about half of the water bar but yes it was honestly a pure guess but went with my favorite hee hee. Jennifer thank you for sending your wonderful soaps they were wonderful.


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## fmg

Well, when I took a shower this morning, I tried using the goatmilk soap first, then the other, on my hair...I didn't want to do this during the experiment because I thought it would be harder to know what was doing what. Anyway, I have decided the water soap does not have more lather after all, just different size bubbles or something? The lather with the GM soap seemed smoother somehow. Maybe the fat in the milk make it so. Okay, just thought a bit more, I think the gm soap's lather is more foamy and the lather from the water soap is more bubbly....that's the only words I could think to describe it. Both lather well though.

This was definitely a fun experiment...and if anybody wants to do any other experiments on me, I am perfectly happy being a test subject, lol.


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## LLB101

I'm more confused than ever... 

1) the 100% GM soap is harder to make without it burning than water soap, is that right?
2) if there's minimal difference is how hard it is to make, then GM is a whole lot more work still with the milking and freezing and all.
3) if you're showing dairy goats, you have to milk anyway, so you might as well use the milk for something, maybe that's not much more effort
4) but somehow the balance of work vs benefit seems questionable to me
5) Vicki's post was hard to follow, sounds like you use 50% GM & water? And you didn't like making 100% water or 100% GM, am I reading that correctly?

So if there's minimal difference, and a bit more work, WHY is everyone doing GM?


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## MF-Alpines

LLB101 said:


> I'm more confused than ever...
> 
> 1) the 100% GM soap is harder to make without it burning than water soap, is that right?
> 2) if there's minimal difference is how hard it is to make, then GM is a whole lot more work still with the milking and freezing and all.
> 3) if you're showing dairy goats, you have to milk anyway, so you might as well use the milk for something, maybe that's not much more effort
> 4) but somehow the balance of work vs benefit seems questionable to me
> 5) Vicki's post was hard to follow, sounds like you use 50% GM & water? And you didn't like making 100% water or 100% GM, am I reading that correctly?
> 
> So if there's minimal difference, and a bit more work, WHY is everyone doing GM?


Oh, Lacia. Come on! You don't really believe that they're equal do you? Statistics show that 2/3's liked the goatmilk soap better. And who said water soaps are easier to make than GM soaps? Vicki? Ha! What does she know?!? :biggrin 100% GM soaps are NOT that hard to make!!! GM soaps have a "creamier lather" are "nicer on the skin". Just like taking a milk bath. Cleopatra used to do that, you know.

So WHY are we all doing it? Because either a). we truly believe it IS better (and YES, I am one of them) or b). marketing

So if it's b., just don't tell anybody!


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## LLB101

I was one tester that was right, I could tell the difference, but it was a lot less than what I thought it would be.

I think I said "minimal" vs the harder amount of work? There's the work in milking & freezing, thawing just right, folks are often talking about it burning etc. Just seems harder than water. 

Now I'm curious about using whey, LOL. With all the milk I'm going to have, I'd better be working on my cheesemaking and will still have ton of whey to use in something! Dog, chickens, garden can only take so much. My crazy doe likes to drink it but that doesn't seem a like a good idea in quantity either. 

Goat milk soap is so overdone :biggrin... I'm going to start a Goat Whey soap fad!  "Whey Cool Soap" :rofl

"Whey Go-o-o-od Goat Soap" :rofl :rofl


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## Trysta

I have never even tried to make my soap with water, always use goat milk and even though in advance all those 'volcano-and-burning' posts scared me senseless, I haven't had any problem yet with 100% GM soap. And I will stick with 100% GM soap for the reason, that: 1. yes, I definitely DID notice the difference between the soaps I got and 2. marketing for sure, this is a side product of my goat dairy, it makes no sense whatsoever NOT to use GM.

Funny story: yesterday a saw a piece of soap in a store that was a see through orangish glycerine type soap but it said 'Goat Milk Soap' on the label. I thought, 'NO WAY!' so I flipped it over and on the ingredient list it said a bunch of unpronouncable chemicals and then goat milk named as one before last, right before 'scents'. Goatmilk soap my ... :nooo My guess is there was a couple of ounces of GM in each batch :really


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## fmg

I LIKE that idea Lacia!!! I have lots of why in the summer time and right now it all goes to my neighbors pigs. They love the stuff. I have heard of cattle people feeding it back to the cows. It seems like one of the people on this forum (I think it may have been Quentin from Bulgaria but British) gives some of it back to his does. Maybe you need some piggies Lacia...since it sounds like you will have excess whey AND milk. I would suggest a calf, but I know you live in a city, and piglets don't take as much room.

I hate to say it, but I think a lot of the stuff we do is based on marketing. I am terrible when it comes to marketing because I want people to research things themselves, then decide what they want to do...I don't like trying to convince someone something is better, how do I know? Maybe to them it is not. I just let others furnish the "info" and they can decide. lol. I probably need a business-minded person to help me out.


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## LLB101

Oh my head's going crazy with silly ideas on names... I've see a Whey To Go I think, Saanens, a herd name? I wouldn't want to step on any one's toes


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## MF-Alpines

fmg said:


> I hate to say it, but I think a lot of the stuff we do is based on marketing. I am terrible when it comes to marketing because I want people to research things themselves, then decide what they want to do...I don't like trying to convince someone something is better, how do I know? Maybe to them it is not. I just let others furnish the "info" and they can decide. lol. I probably need a business-minded person to help me out.


I can't tell you how many people see "coconut oil" in my list of ingredients and think it's the best thing since sliced bread! "Oh, I love coconut oil!" "Oh, coconut oil is SO good for you!!" Gooshing all over it! Oh, just gag me!!! They truly haven't a clue. Perhaps after their words it's more salesmanship than marketing. (Cripes, I hope my customers aren't on here reading this!)


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## Red Mare

Dang it- so was I right or wrong?


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## NubianSoaps.com

You guessed correctly Whitney


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## Aja-Sammati

I have one called Whey Groovy Patchouli 

Lacia- many of us milk more does than we have time to make cheese from the milk. I can tell you from my hard cheese disasters that my life is too crazy to dedicate the complete attention to making cheese- but soap is pretty quick to make. The best part- I can sell it and turn a profit, all I can do with cheese is eat it and get fatter! :lol


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## Red Mare

Hoooray! See I Knew it was better/nicer. Bryant said I was crazy as he didn't notice a huge difference in it, but I really did.


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## hsmomof4

He's a guy. Whadya expect? :biggrin


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## LLB101

Aja-Sammati said:


> I have one called Whey Groovy Patchouli
> 
> Lacia- many of us milk more does than we have time to make cheese ...life is too crazy to dedicate the complete attention to making cheese- but soap is pretty quick to make. The best part- I can sell it and turn a profit, all I can do with cheese is eat it and get fatter! :lol


Well I get happy when I eat the cheese, until I get too fat I guess.

I LOVE that soap name! That's OT here but it'd be fun to start a thread on wild soap names and how soapers come up with them.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Bump


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## swgoats

Next experiment... Water replaced with milk goat milk soap verses what I do, hand mill soap adding the milk as an additive. . When you do the hand milling, the sponification process is finished. The fat in the milk is superfat. I have no idea if it makes any difference at all. I just like hand milling, so I do it that way. And I'm not selling soap, just making it for my own enjoyment. I'd just be curious if anyone noticed a difference. I made some last year, and it is fine. Did not go rancid which was one concern I had hand milling in fresh milk.


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## hsmomof4

To really compare, you'd have to use hand-milled soap for both, one with extra milk and one without. Re-batching (aka, hand-milling) changes/improves the lathering qualities of the soap all by itself.


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## swgoats

Hmmm... Yeah, you are right. Otherwise, we couldn't isolate whether any potential differences were due to the hand milling or the treatment of the milk.


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## LLB101

someone want to 'splain hand milling to the rest of us?


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## hsmomof4

Take your already made, cold process soap. Shred it or cut it into small pieces. Put into crock pot or roaster and cook until melted and vaseline-y looking. You can add a little liquid if you like, but if you had just made the CP soap, you don't absolutely need to. Stir well, add fragrance, if desired, and stir again, glop into molds.


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## MF-Alpines

hsmomof4 said:


> Take your already made, cold process soap. Shred it or cut it into small pieces. Put into crock pot or roaster and cook until melted and vaseline-y looking. You can add a little liquid if you like, but if you had just made the CP soap, you don't absolutely need to. Stir well, add fragrance, if desired, and stir again, glop into molds.


PITA, IMHO.


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## swgoats

I like it cause it is gentler on the additives. It also supposedly makes a harder longer lasting soap. Those fancy Crabtree and Evelyn soaps are triple milled (not by hand though). Might be time consuming as a business strategy, but fun for home use. I generally make a big batch of basic soap, then I hand mill small batches with different fragrances and additives. And sometimes I buy a couple bars of Kirk's Catille, grind them up, melt them down, add goat milk, mold. Viola, milk in my soap!


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## hsmomof4

MF-Alpines said:


> hsmomof4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Take your already made, cold process soap. Shred it or cut it into small pieces. Put into crock pot or roaster and cook until melted and vaseline-y looking. You can add a little liquid if you like, but if you had just made the CP soap, you don't absolutely need to. Stir well, add fragrance, if desired, and stir again, glop into molds.
> 
> 
> 
> PITA, IMHO.
Click to expand...

Or, if you're lazy you can just chuck whole bars into your roaster and wait for it to melt.


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## Aja-Sammati

All of the milk in cold process soap is superfat also- there is no way to compute your lye concentration for the milk fat (unless you have a home chemistry lab and like to do a lot of math. )

I certainly couldn't 'hand-mill' at my volume of sales, but some people love it. I also think it is a pain, and I thought the soap I did that way was, uhm, not very attractive. I probably didn't have the patience to do it right! What we refer to as 'hand-milled' is not truly milled soap if you read up on what soap milling is- none of us can afford the equipment for that process.


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## hsmomof4

Oh, it's definitely "rustic." But I got an excellent wholesale account because of a rebatch due to overheating, and they want the "rustic" soap all the time, so they get it.


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## swgoats

I don't really consider rebatching a mistake exactly the same. My soap is smoother and prettier after hand milling. But maybe I'm a little fussy with it. (Not every concoction has been pretty. My first bars I added too much liquid and as they aged they warped, but they we harder that was for sure.). Definately could see it not being first choice for volume sales.

The milk replace water method would be super fat, but you have know idea if the lye works on the milk fat or the oils. And I would think it works on the milk fat first since it is in contact with the milk first. I could be full of crap on this, but just by my way of thinking there could potentially be a difference.


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## NubianSoaps.com

There is no such thing as superfat. The lye will only marry with so much oil to make soap. To much oil and you have oil not saponified and on top of your bar. Not enough oil and you have extra lye, lye heavy soap. To say or think that somehow you can smash some extra oil into your soap, it is simply unscientific. It's marketing, which is fine, just not on a list teaching new folks how to soap. So superfat is actually nothing more than a good recipe with the correct amount of oils in it. Vicki


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## MF-Alpines

While I finally get what you're saying about there really not being a soap that is superfatted, I still think there is a difference, when put into calculators, of a soap that is say 3% SF vs 7% SF. I can FEEL and SEE the difference.


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## hsmomof4

Vicki, I have to say that I disagree somewhat.  We know that saponification is a chemical reaction. Fat + lye = soap. Like all chemical reactions, it is very specific. Here's a link to a picture of the equation (using a generic fat), if you will: http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/blsapon.htm Now, if we do this reaction with exactly the amount of oils and lye needed to make a complete reaction with no leftovers, that should be our alleged 0% superfat...no fat left, and no lye left, everything completely reacted. Obviously, if we have more lye than we need going into the reaction, there will be lye left over because there was not enough fat. Similarly, if we have more fat than we need, there will be fat left over because there was not enough lye to fully react with it. So far, so good. Yet, I can make several batches of soap, with different "superfat" levels, say 0% for my laundry soap, 5% for my normal recipe, and 8% for a swap that i did recently where there were people who did not want to use a soap lower than that, and get all solid soaps with no oil slick on top. It is chemically _impossible_ for a set amount of lye to react with varying amounts of the same oil. (It DOES react with different amounts of different oils, that's why they have different SAP values, but that is calculated into the recipe when you make soap.) So how to explain this? When we make soap, certain things get incorporated into the soap that are, in fact, not soap. Additives, for example, and the liquid that we use to dissolve the lye. Most of that liquid evaporates during the cure, but a day after we unmold and cut that soap, it will still be there, yet we cannot "see" it, except that our soap is softer. It's not sitting on top of the soap in a layer, waiting to evaporate, rather, it is incorporated throughout the bar. That's what I am pretty sure happens with the excess fat. Too much, yes, the soap cannot incorporate all of it, and you get your oil slick. But up to a point, it will be evenly distributed throughout the bar, assuming you mixed well when you made the soap, it didn't overheat and separate, etc. The higher the SF gets as it approaches "oil slick level," the softer the bar becomes.


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## NubianSoaps.com

So oils evaporate in your soap during cure? No.

If you want to call it superfat (which when people talk this it is about 'extra' oils or butters and usually speicific oils and butters" left over so they are more moisturising. This is not true. 0% is not where you start...you would start your line of reasoning at 10%, the amount at the high end that lye would have enough strength to incorporate, sap all the oil. 0% is the other end of the spectrum where if you use less oil than this you have too much lye. If you move higher than 10% than you have left over oil not saponified. With a good recipe and a steep water discount could you move to 11% sure....but it is either saponified or not, it is not superfatted in the terminology everyone is useing. It simply is a softer bar of soap, it has no excess butters or oils in it that give you any kind of quality to the bar, and the bar does not dissapate oils into the air and get hard like a 5 or 6% bar does....once it's liquid is evaporated it can't get harder.

It's a marketing tool that has been incorporated into our chemical process, a marketing tool that newer soapers who simply follow recipes and don't understand the science of it, believe as fact and pass on to other new soapers. Each oil and butter has a different sap value, you can push those with higher iodine amounts in your recipe than you can those who have less. Vicki


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## hsmomof4

I wasn't saying that the oils evaporate during cure. I was using the water as an example of something being in the soap that you cannot see there, reasoning that there could be excess oils present in the soap without there being an oil slick on top. And I was saying that the lye can react ONLY with a specified amount of fat. It cannot react with more. So let's say that I make a recipe that has a 0% "superfat" and it calls for, oh, making stuff up here, 2 pounds of olive oil and 4 oz of lye. Then I make the same recipe with a 5% "superfat" and although it has 2 pounds of olive oil still, it only calls for 3.5 oz of lye (again, I am just pulling numbers out of the air). Let's assume that the first recipe is fully reacted, that ALL the lye reacted with ALL the oil. Now, moving on to the second recipe, there is less lye, and the same amount of oil. You canNOT "stretch" the lye to make that lesser amount of lye react with the same amount of oil. Chemical reactions do not work that way. So, that means that there is oil in the resultant bar of soap that the lye did not react with, because there was not enough lye to do so. I theorize that up to a point, that excess oil could be distributed evenly throughout the bar of soap, but at some point, that will no longer work.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Exactly what you said, and the closer you get to 0% the harsher the bar is, the more left over lye that could have been saped if you had put in more oil....not the other way around, where there is more oil and less soap. It's all soap, you either give the lye enough oils to saponify or you don't, or you move the lye to such a high percentage of oil with it that it can't saponify anymore...soft soap or soap with an oil slick on it. It is simply a term for the amount of lye left in the soap, it is not a term that gives you good benefits...superfatting is not a good thing, and that is what I am trying to say.....saying I superfat with goatmilk and everyone thinks it's good, it's not, it's a marketing tool most who use don't understand. I see it as soft soap in a poorly constructed recipe, or it would not have excess oils in it.

We know this on the forum, people who think that you can superfat with goatmilk or shea butter, like somehow the lye can pick and choose, or because you put it in first.....saponifcation isn't over until the bar is firm....it isn't happening when the soap is fluid, so unless you can put butters and oils in to rebatch, and once again if you have already made soap at 10% superfat...it won't accept more oils....dependant upon the oils and butters used.

Ok we are talking in circles now  It's a marketing tool that works very well, just lets not teach new folks that it's real. Or like this swap proved to me, it was nothing more than a pretty 50/50 guess on what the liquid was....a marketing tool that we all use, but lets not teach new folks that it is much of anything else.


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## hsmomof4

For those trying to follow this, Vicki and I are saying nearly the same thing, except that she is going off of what the calculators give as a 0% "superfat" as actually being a bit on the lye heavy side, so that there is room for more oil to be added to the recipe, up to a point where the lye would be completely reacted (at what % "superfat" that would be, I don't know...maybe 5%?) and I was assuming complete reaction at the 0% point, since it has seemed to me that the calculators are designed to figure it that way: they have the SAP values of the different oils and should be able to calculate exactly the amount of lye needed to fully react with the amount and types of oil given, and the higher "superfat" numbers are indicated as % of excess fat over the amount needed to fully react with the lye, rather than the other way around. 

So my question is (and I'm not trying to be argumentative; I am truly curious) what is the reasoning behind seeing a 0% "superfat" as actually somewhat lye heavy, rather than completely reacted?


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## Aja-Sammati

Stacey- from a chemistry stand point you are correct. Though I hate to run the numbers by hand, so I have not done so in quite a while (soap calculators are so much easier!) it is possible to have a 0% 'superfat'. As you said- it means is that you have the exact amount of lye/oil to make soap. It isn't even necessarily 'harsh' soap, it is simply basic soap with no happy additives we are used to in soap. I would guess that either the soap calculators are dead on, or that they err on the side of caution- starting at a higher built in superfat for someone going for 0% to keep the soap safer...does anyone want to pull out their hand calculator to test them? :nooo

As you said, there is a set amount of oil that a set amount of lye can react with- you cannot stretch the lye, _nor can it stretch itself_, to convert more oil into soap. (This is chemistry, not magic!) At that point yes, any oil in excess of the 0% set amount is what we refer to as 'superfat'. It is simply an industry term, not jargon that is made to be intentionally misleading. A properly computed 0% bar will have no extra lye. (Of course, you have to know the exact saponic value of the oils for a 'perfect' computation, and we & the soap calculators use industry standard values that are periodically tested against batches of oils, so there is room for error.)

When you add any percentage of oils over what the lye is scientifically capable of reacting, you have excess oil, equally suspended throughout the soap (as Stacey has pointed out quite well). Unless there is so much oil that the suspension cannot hold (the oil slick- like supersaturation), then you will not see the oil, but it will be present. (Like air, we cannot see it, but we do manage to breath )

Of course, you cannot pick which oil gets to be the 'extra'- that is the bunk that some soapers sham the public with...however, if a soap is 5% superfatted, and uses 100% GM as the liquid, there is also extra butterfat in the soap from the GM, so there is more than 5% extra oils for the lye to eat. That GM soap is definitely more 'superfatted' than 'store bought' or most non-GM handcrafted soap.


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## NubianSoaps.com

Than why is even 0% superfat on the lye calculators? Because it is an industry term that has been morphed into marketing.


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## MF-Alpines

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Than why is even 0% superfat on the lye calculators? Because it is an industry term that has been morphed into marketing.


Maybe, maybe not. SOME, not ALL may use that for marketing or maybe they really don't know or understand the difference or what they are really doing for that matter. You can see the ignorance of SOME on the soap forums. But not all of us believe that. The term "superfat" can be used as such WITHOUT it being used as a marketing ploy. It is a term that is part of the recipe. Period.


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## LLB101

I can't begin to quote all the bits that pique my response since I last read this thread...

I did think the test showed something like 60% of testers could tell the difference? It wasn't 50/50 I thought.

Hand milling does sound like a PITA. I think I'm reading that the benefit is a harder, smoother soap? How does that happen/work? What does the shredding and cooking actually do to it?


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## hsmomof4

I would not say harder and smoother. I would say better lather and milder soap all around. Usually more rustic looking, at least compared to my regular CP bars.

I thought, that of people who could tell any sort of difference between the soaps, that most guessed correctly (with one notable exception, who misunderstood what the soapers were complaining about and thought she could use that data to identify the soap. :biggrin ) But there were a lot of people who really didn't notice a difference between the soaps and for them, it was about 50/50, as you would expect, since they were really just guessing. So, for me, the obvious point is that there are some people who don't really notice a difference between one soap and another, just like there are people out there who wouldn't smell an appreciable difference between lemon and lemongrass, but that those who could tell, liked the GM soap better. And that's probably your market, anyway, I'm thinking.


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## LLB101

interesting point... "texture deaf" like "tone deaf" LOL... that would be my DH, not sure he'd notice the different between GM soap and dishwasher detergent... nice guy, I married him but seriously unaware of things sometimes & not a good market for specialty GM Soap. Sort of like wine, opera, chocolate or anything, even goat confirmation, LOL, there are those attuned to subtle differences and those who are not. Interesting point that "of those who said they perceived a difference" most were correct?


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## hsmomof4

> Interesting point that "of those who said they perceived a difference" most were correct?


Yup. I went back and double-checked. There were 4 who guessed wrong, of those, 3 were people who could not tell a difference between the performance of the soaps, and 1 was based on the reason, "skin less dry" but they also commented that the soap they (incorrectly) thought was the water soap, had nicer lather. Of the 8 who guessed correctly, 5 had specific reasons, 2 were definitely just guesses, and 1 was sort of in between ("First of all I was very surprised there wasn't more difference! But after several days using one soap on the right side, the other on the left, I have determined that the butterfly soap is made with water and the plain soap made with milk.")

So, to recap, 4 guessed wrong and 8 guessed correctly (which is already not 50/50). Of those truly guessing, it was pretty close to 50/50: 3 wrong vs 2 or 3 right, depending on how you count the one I quoted. Of those being able to determine a difference, it was 1 wrong vs 5 (or 6) correct. And there is one who guessed correctly who didn't give any commentary, so it's hard to know what happened there, but I put it in with the "truly guessing" group.


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## LLB101

Thanks Stacey, great job reviewing the numbers! 

So I wonder where the repeated statement that it was 50/50 is coming from? If we all have the same data but different conclusions, the analysis process differs. Sometimes there are important different reasoning in there...


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## hsmomof4

Well, it was at 50/50 apparently at some point in getting the results.


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## NubianSoaps.com

In getting the reviews back, a lot of them told me they were guessing, added critiques that were lengthy, so I PMed them back and told them to just guess....I think we should have had a catagory...so was this strictly a guess? Because some were even though they did guess correctly. We were at exactly 50/50 until the last few critiques came in. Vicki


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