# Which Nubian breeder?



## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

If you could get one goat from any Nubian breeder what breeder would it be?


----------



## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

Six-M Galaxy-Guess I gotta go for the milk cause when it comes to show animals there are at least 3 I would have a hard time choosing from...


----------



## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki

Any Questions.... :biggrin


----------



## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

Yup, why her?


----------



## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

Why I would choose Vicki.

Having been on forum(s) with her for over a year I have a lot of respect for her knowledge of goats and her techniques for raising them.

I also appreciate the herds she uses to improve her herd.

The pictures I've seen of her animals are very impressive.

Looking at my stock, I know her animals would bring improvements into my herd.


----------



## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

BTW I was teasing. I currently own two nubians from Miss. Vicki, my first one was from Miss. Vicki, gave my four beautiful kids. The other one is another beauty and an a lot of fun to have, I have greatly enjoyed being the owner of Dawn!


----------



## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

Thunder-Ridge (No offence, Vicki). I am Kim Williams DHIA tester, and neighbor, so I see her herd all of the time. VERY consistent herd! 

I would then pick Vicky  

Ken


----------



## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

I should have said no favorites. :lol


----------



## Bilrite Farms (Oct 26, 2007)

Kastdemur or BlissBerry  I just love BlissBerry Hummin' Ruth but no more Nubians here. We have one doe left from when we had Nubians and one is enough!

Trisha


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

None! :biggrin

Tracy


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I like Tracy's answer  

And folks get real...I know you all love me...well except OBVIOUSLY KEN!!!  But dang there are hundreds of goats in many many other herds I would salivate to have. Obviously from my buck purchase this last year, I would steal away Santa Cruz in a heart beat in the Blissberry Herd. 

If I could spend the weekend looking through the herd, pedigrees in hand, cart blanc I would fill a pen with Kastedemur does. But Karen wants input into your purchases.

I would steal Samiel from Rhuels Dairy Goats and breed her to another Kastedemur EX buck. I love Sandy's Z line and their daughters.

I would buy the never going to be sold Royal and Crown Ambassador semen, stash it at Kayes and have her use these last precious ampules on my does.

I love my herd, I love the direction they are going in, they are young, I would add more of the same, but I would not change my direction. I do love seeing others purchasing from the same folks I do/did...in the totally OPPOSITE direction I am going 

I would have loved to have seen POTF Sage bred to Tim's new Blissberry Buck. I have always loved Tim's Huckelberry. I would like to try the POTF Royal Marcus semen again. I really wanted to try something out of Easy Stream when Roger went Kastdemur.... until they were sold, they are lost forever.

There are lots of herds who I admire their goats, but their management isn't anything I want to bring home. Or their bloodline is the Frosty Marvin part of the bloodline I don't breed, although I can appreciate some of them.

The worst thing about having Nubians for 21 years, and can't even imgaine Tim being in for so many more years, you know secrets, way to many secrets.

And you aint getting one more word out of me 

Had to edit to add Lynnhaven but it doesn't include all of her bloodline  Vicki


----------



## Guest (Nov 16, 2007)

Bliss Berry 

Christy


----------



## Narrow Chance (Oct 29, 2007)

I'd have to say Kastdemur. Since I got a buck kid from her this past summer. Right up there would be Cam's Menagerie.. which is heavy Copper Hill... since that is my other 'line' of Nubians. I know there are several breeders that I wouldn't turn down anything from thier herd.. Blissberry, Hoanbu, Tim Vanzants herd (names escapes me at this moment), Lakeshore, Kismet.. the list goes on and on.. :biggrin


----------



## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

Karen Lewis, Lassenwood, has some phenominal Nubians as well. I have spent quite a bit of time on her farm, and even had the pleasure of handling Kiona, Kalila and Valentine at a show before they were sold to Karen Senn.

(Her LaManchas, Alpines and Toggs are pretty incredible too!)


----------



## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

I like Tim's Pruitts goats, V of course, wat I see of Blissberry, and, of course, the Kastdemur. Butthen I am NT a nubian afficianando. Check back again with me re:lamanchas


----------



## GallopingGoats (Oct 28, 2007)

Kastdemurs for me too. I have a buck that is heavy Kastdemur and he is great looking and the sweetest guy I have ever been around. You can just go out in the field and trim his hooves and he just stands so polite. Shannon


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:lol :lol
I have to go with Tracy's post=None!
I don't "do" Nubians...been there, done that! :laughcry
Kaye


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well since I know absolutly nothing abt Nubian's or lines or anything have to say 
Lonesome Doe/Blissberry and the lines leading up to them because that is what I have and what I am getting. Probably kick myself later because my competion will be Lonesome Doe


----------



## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

When we got our first goats (lamanchas) we asked the breeder (as we did every goat person that we met) "what would you do differently, now, than you did when you were starting?" Her answer?

"I wouldnt take so long to get out of nubians!" :lol


----------



## Dover Farms (Oct 25, 2007)

Kastdemur's, Lakeshore, and Blissberry. We are getting those bloodlines indirectly by getting goats from Quarter Mile and Hoanbu! :biggrin Both of them are 2-2 1/2 hours away! Oh and Copper-Hill....have one those....double bred granddaughter of Papa Bear....LOVE her! :biggrin I also like the newer Wingwood Farm bloodlines...


----------



## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

Part of my reason for choosing Vicki is that hers are some animals I have seen. I have not been exposed to a lot of different herds so my group of choices (for this question) was smaller than some of the others.

If I were gonna go close to me; SAADA and LH Mtn Vista are less than a half an hour away, so reality puts me choosing from them. And, as I am already heavy on LH Mtn I would go fo SAADA.


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Kate why this question anyway?? are you buying a new goat?


----------



## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

Ummmmm....I am contemplating it.

I also was wondering where the Nubian breeders her would go. Since I highly respect what they have to say bout all goats.


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

WELL NOW the A2Z DAIRY GOATS will have an excellent line in a year or too. HA! which will be backed up by Miss Vicki


----------



## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Katie, it all depends on what you are looking for... and the style you are looking for.

I think there are desirable traits in every line of Nubians. 

When I think of General Appearance and elegance with beautiful dairy character - I think of something that has a lot of Cadillac and/or Price O The Field
When I think of mammaries - those perfect globular udders, I think of Kastdemur - Kastdemur and herds built on Kastdemur (Blissberry, Lakeshore Farms to name a few) is what is hot (popular) at the moment.

When I think of body capacity and size and lots of milk, I think of Frosty Marvin bloodlines. (Kismet and Rising Creek to name a few). 

Any of these lines can produce does that are of National quality.

Now if you are looking for milk and some people their "thing" is milk production.
I would go to some herds built on Sidney Chinsucker herds and/or Marvin which Chinsucker is a grandson. Also Six M Galaxy has earned their reputation on milk.... 

It is the goal or dream of most breeders to combine all of these characteristics in one and do it consistantly.

Usually people go for what is popular and each have had their day.
Cadillac, Muirhill, Gasconade, Price O The Field, Frosty Marvin herds, and now Kastdemur. Each have had their moment in the limelight. Maybe you will be the great Nubian breeder in the next few years.


----------



## Guest (Nov 16, 2007)

Sorry if I'm treading off a little bit.....Duh,,,,,I just went off in la la land. :crazy


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Some questions are better for Pm's and phone calls. We are cruised by a lot of folks, who would only love to either forward a post we have written or simply the post is seen by someone we are innocently talking about. As larger breeders it's hard for Tim, Sara and Sandy to publically say things they would privately, while standing in their own barn talking bloodline. Why this type of thread is SO hard and why we moved our critique posts. When newer it's misinterperted as being cliquish, when in fact it's simply because the world of goats is very very tiny and everyone tweaks bloodlines to meld into their perfect ideal goat.

"Well Vicki said your doe is awful" has happened before with a post forwarded.

Look at the websites...you can see exactly who is breeding to whom and who is keeping what out of whom. Being one of the many buying all the goats out of bloodlines isn't smart unless you are buying what the breeder themself is using in their herd. If I breed everyone to Peter Pan and then next year all of Peter Pan's babies are gone and I keep nothing out of him, do you really want to buy something out of Peter Pan? Even if he is campaigned on all the lists as the next best thing since sliced bread? Or his one daughter misses the spotlight sale because she is CAE positive or looks like Captain Hook  

Just saying don't expect on this type of thread to read a lot of candor. Vicki


----------



## Guest (Nov 16, 2007)

I understand......and with Tim, I really didn't expect him to be critical of any line, but it could still be taken the wrong way I guess.


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

I vote with Tracy and Kaye....NONE. :biggrin

Camille


----------



## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> I vote with Tracy and Kaye....NONE. Camille


And Camille, what would make you read a Nubian thread. It's that secret desire to breed the REAL dairy goat - the NUBIAN!!! :rofl :rofl :rofl :goat


----------



## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

> everyone tweaks bloodlines to meld into their perfect ideal goat.


Isn't that the truth! and some people are better at it than others :lol I am still somewhat scattered in my approach but I think I'm starting to figure out where I want to head.

It is to bad that folks have to be defensive, I have already gotten in trouble for giving an opinion about someone elses animal. Imagine my surprise when it made the rounds and came back to bite me! I never imagined that the opinion of little ol' me would even matter-what do I know!! I'm still learning. I try to preface everything I say now with " I prefer..." After all different things appeal to each of us. I am discovering that it matters less to me what "they" think about my goats. I have to live with them, look at them, and milk them-so I am out to please myself 

Tim I loved your post!


----------



## MayLOC (Oct 26, 2007)

Tim Pruitt said:


> > I vote with Tracy and Kaye....NONE. Camille
> 
> 
> And Camille, what would make you read a Nubian thread. It's that secret desire to breed the REAL dairy goat - the NUBIAN!!!


Well.....I will _admit _ I have been reading this thread with interest as I am familiar with most everybody mentioned via websites, but.... here's the good part....I was really interested to see what saanen/sable breeder names were brought up.

I kept thinking gee whiz there are a lot of nubian lovers here.....then I re-read the thread name (NUBIAN BREEDERS) :yeahthat

Gosh.... :needcoffee


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

eepwall Well, Tim...my excuse is: When any post gets as many hits as this one..I just gotta' be nosey. Hhhmmm...might be something I NEED to know. :laughcry :laughcry
:blush 
Kaye


----------



## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

I did not expect it to get this many hits! I should have known other wise, But I really didn't. :shrug2


----------



## Sheryl (Oct 27, 2007)

:goat woohoo Tim.!


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Hey now! Just because I am so partial to Saanens doesn't mean I can't appreciate a pretty
Nubian!
And ANY thread with intelligent discussion about breeding - different styles, linebreeding, slower to mature lines, etc. will always be AVIDLY read by me. I figure that much of the information can generally be applied to any breed.

I'm addicted, what can I say. 

Camille


----------



## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

wheytogosaanens said:


> I'm addicted, what can I say.


Addicted to goats or reading?


----------



## Guest (Nov 17, 2007)

Well, I like nubians, but I don't show and probably don't want to know all the horror. I do love their demeaner. I would love to breed our nubs with Galloping Goats Cactus, but I don't can't afford that lol. And I don't know what I'm looking for so please don't laugh but I think Cactus is a very handsome fellow and would service our xenophen just nicely.


----------



## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

There are so many nice Nubians out there, that it would be hard to pick just one herd. Some of my bloodlines go back to Kastdemur, Saada. Lonesome Doe and Lynnhaven, yet I have not bought goats from these breeders as of yet. They come from a couple of friends who use those lines. I am seriously thinking of buying my next herdsire from Saada. What my mentors have told me is the importance of buying animals that go well with your lines to give you the improvement you want. The reason I am thinking of Saada is that they show at two of the same shows that I do and I can sit down with Laura and go over pedigrees and see what might improve my herd.


----------



## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Astronut-1 said:


> wheytogosaanens said:
> 
> 
> > I'm addicted, what can I say.
> ...


Actually I meant addicted to goats, but I am guilty of being addicted to reading.
I'd read the label off the Ketchup bottle if there wasn't anything else! 

Camille
(New ulterior motive for this chit-chat....need more posts for the sale page.) :lol


----------



## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

Bilrite Farms said:


> Kastdemur or BlissBerry  I just love BlissBerry Hummin' Ruth but no more Nubians here. We have one doe left from when we had Nubians and one is enough!
> 
> Trisha


 I have to agree with you here Trisha, having had the opportunity to help get Ruthie ready for the ring, she is a great doe! But I do think my legs look pretty good next to Godiva in her Blissberry advertising.
But we would never be caught owning a Nubian again, we are Togg lovers through and through. We don't discriminate by breed though when it comes to handling beautiful animals!


----------



## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I actually have owned all the dairy breeds, except Oberhasli and Nigerians. But, I've cut back to mostly Nubians and a few Alpines, just because they will sell the fastest. Those beautiful, long ears just catch your attention.
Some people hate Nubians because they can be loud, but when we raised Boers, we had some that could out-scream a Nubian anyday!!!


----------



## Dover Farms (Oct 25, 2007)

I agree! Our Boer crosses were louder than any of our Nubians!


----------



## Ravens Haven (Oct 26, 2007)

As far as Nubian breeders, my choices would be several breeders, Kastdemurs, Blissberry, Cam's Menagerie, Misty Hollow, and the list goes on and on. I haven't used many far off breeders as of yet and I am having nice results. 

Autumn


----------



## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> It's that secret desire to breed the REAL dairy goat - the NUBIAN!!!


 :rofl

I assume we get an unlimited amount to spend  I can't afford what I want right now.


----------



## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"Some people hate Nubians because they can be loud"

No kidding!!!

We were at our nextdoor neighbor's yesterday with the farrier..we each have 10 acres, and we were on teh other side of theirs, so NOT close, at all--in Houston we'd have had some 60 houses between us and them! The farrier is working on the horses and he kept looking up and cocking his head, same for our neighbors, same for me...what WAS that noise?!

Then we realised. It was a couple of first-timers panicking over being with that big ole buck. They were carrying on so bad I finally sent dd running to make sure that no one was dying! Of course they were not, just two 8 month old nubian doelings hollering their silly heads off for no real reason at all.


----------



## LynninTX (Oct 25, 2007)

I hate to say it LA.... but my LM did the same thing when I put them in with the bucks...


----------



## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

well if somebody else is paying the bill : ) I want a kid out of Vickies Shoo fly who's beautiful head is up there on the logo at the top of this very page! sired by either GE or Santa's lil helper, also that black saada doe ff a doe kid from her. and a Blissberry kid sired by Almost Famous out of ? Tang, or Godiva or Cruz, and Number one serious wish a Pruittville kid out of CH Pruittville's Magnolia 91EEEE sired by his little kastdemur next expedition buck, or his new blissberry buck. thats all : )


----------



## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

LynninTX said:


> I hate to say it LA.... but my LM did the same thing when I put them in with the bucks...


What she won't tell you is that our did the same thing. But then she wasn't next door with our neighbors and the farrier. 



SherrieC said:


> well if somebody else is paying the bill : ) I want a kid out of Vickies Shoo fly


Well, I am the one who is going to be paying for it and I have already been over that. But I agree, I like her!


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I was going to say that also Sherrie. When I get a Shoofly X Nick daughter, I want to use Tim's Blissberry buck on her for a buck for me  He has way too much family down his road to sneak over though  Vicki


----------



## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

You mean you can't sneak a non descript brown doeling into a pen at Tim's and then back out again without being Noticed!! strange, I could do that here and my hubby would never notice. well Except if red eye came up missing He loves that goober goat. He reminds me of Gomer Pyle,, RE not the hubby : ) Hubby reminds me of Ron Howard and Chuck Norris love child.


----------



## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Course our red haired son is the spitting image of Opie! : )


----------



## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

If you look at Karen Senn's breeding success, you will note the blending of three lines, Cadillac, Conquest and Frosty Marvin. She does an excellent job of using the best traits of these lines and melding them into one. Carole Rhoten owner of Magnum Semen Works and a long time Nubian breeder shared this observation with me some ten years ago. She noted that many of the National Champions were a combination of these three lines. 

Purebred Acres Conquest and his sons did some great things for the Nubian breed by improving udders. It is said that sometimes the teats were a bit to the outside but the overall attachment was vastly improved. Sometimes this line was a bit short bodied. 

Frosty Marvin of course improved stature, milk production and body capacity. It is said that you have to be careful using him too closely or you will get beefy type animals with heavy shoulders. Some breeders using these lines have succeeded in producing the famed "dual purpose" Nubian. Sometimes you had to watch out for steep rumps and weak chines too. Much of this has been culled out through selective breedings however. A lot of the success with Marvin came from one of his sons who passed on some of his better traits. However, don't think you can't win with goats that are heavy Marvin linebred. There have been National winners who are loaded with him in the pedigree.

The Cadillac lines were short in stature but had great general appearance, with lovely toplines. I think some of the faults in some of this line was poor breed character. One of the more recent examples from this line that won National attention was Faith Farm. 

Your success with Nubians will take determination no matter what lines you choose. The gene pool is still rather large and consistentcy is not always there. You will have to be willing to cull and cull hard. Every famous buck has a certain amount of offspring that will not compete in the show ring and is more successful as a utility doe in a dairy or for a family milker. Don't try to build your herd with numbers but with quality. A goat with poor conformation takes as much care as one with good conformation. Your goal should be to breed the type or style you like. Begin with the selection of good bucks whose dam and other close relatives you absolutely adore and build your breeding program around them. Don't get discouraged at the shows because usually Nubians are highly competitive. The nice thing about this though is that you don't usually have to worry about numbers to sanction a show.


----------



## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Have to agree with Tim!!! I have an ADGA judge who lives within 10 miles of me. She told me that she wants to go back into some of the old lines and re-create some of the famous animals from years gone by. Everybody wants the newest, hottest, most visible right now, but there are some excellent "old" genetics out there.


----------



## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Maybe you can PM me and tell me who this judge is. 

It is going to be difficult to re-create these old lines as most of them are mixed and melded together. The heavy use of semen from some of these 20 and 30 year old bucks could set you back in your breeding program. The breed has made quite a few improvements since the 70's and 80's. That is not to say you can't get a good animal from using these bucks, however you could lose some consistentcy. 

A friend of mine was told by their appraiser to get away from the old lines she was trying to bring back because she was losing rear udder height. For example I used a 1980 buck, Gasconde SS Marksman on GCH Pruittville's E/A Strawberry who had him for a great grandsire. I lost rear udder height and also got a doe with a big dewlap under the chin - just like him. I haven't been brave enough to use him again - although I still have a few straws of his left in the tank. BTW, I am the last person that used him and that was the year, 2000. 

Vicki can chime in and tell you more about how this doe developed as I only saw her as a first freshener.


----------



## Narrow Chance (Oct 29, 2007)

:yeahthat I agree with you Tim.. everything you've mentioned about 'melting' those line together. 
And cutting those less desirable does and kids. Such a hard thing to do but oh so necessisary.. 
Pays off in the long run. 
And yes.. it pays to pay attention to what the other breeders are doing.. not just to be noisy, but if your green as a cucumber,( like me) you have to learn by watching what they do, figuring out why they are breeding to what.. yada yada. 
Fun for me.. as it's all part of 'THE GOAT GAME'.. 
In the end.. it's all trial and error. I sort of feel I am a big wig playing the stock market. What's up this year won't be us next year. 
But your right.. I have noticed that there are a lot of breeding taking place to Cadilac and Smooth Operator. 

Rett


----------



## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

> But your right.. I have noticed that there are a lot of breeding taking place to Cadilac and Smooth Operator.


 In my opinion what they are trying to do here is bringing size, milk production and ears to and melding them with better toplines and dairy character. Every good breeder is trying to breed the perfect goat but alas it is somewhat elusive.


----------



## Narrow Chance (Oct 29, 2007)

Really? I have a few perfect ones in my barn... you don't??? :biggrin
:goat

Teasing ofcourse!!


----------



## UnRuli Acres (Oct 26, 2007)

SherrieC said:


> also that black saada doe ff a doe kid from her.


I had a reservation for a kid from the same litter as that FF........that was before......well, you know. Unfortunately, I still have deposit money with them that I'll never be able to use now.


----------



## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

I guess what I should have really asked was what bloodlines should I use not which breeder should I go to. :?

So....

If I am looking for General Appearance and dairy character I would want to look into does that have Cadillac or Price O The Field or both.

For mammaries, I should look at does with Kastdemur in them.

Body capacity would mean looking at does with Frosty Marvin bloodlines.


----------



## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Generally speaking yes... But remember, there are fine examples of dairy character, mammaries, milk, general appearance and body capacity in all of the different lines. Kastdemur, POTF, FM have all presented animals that exhibit all of these traits. Each have had their moment(s) of glory in the show ring and at the Nationals. 

I was only pointing out the traits that each line is strong in AND these are only my opinion from what I have observed. Opinions are like noses, everybody has one.


----------



## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

I would like to add something here... It's important to realize that not every animal under the same herdname will exhibit these traits. I can only speak for my own herd, but I am sure if you asked Karen (or any breeder) they would tell you that there are animals within their own herds that they would never breed together, because they just wouldn't click.

I bring this up because I cannot tell you the number of times I have heard someone say (and I will insert "Kastdemur's" for arguments sake) "My doe has Kastdemur's in it, so I want to breed it to a Kastdemur's buck" expecting to get fabulous results. Like I said in another post regarding, we are breeding goats, not breeding herdnames. Selecting a breeding based on desirable traits within a herd is one thing... selecting a breeding based solely on the "name" is something totally different.

JMO... Ken


----------



## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

I fully recognize that, I seen it in our LaMancha herd, and I wasn't expecting to get a goat with the bloodlines and see that, I know very well there is a chance that I could get a doe that just doesn't/wouldn't make the cut. But that is a chance I take. 

Everyone's replies answered the questions that I had. And gave me a general idea of what to look for and what I might expect to get from them.

Thanks!


----------



## SandyReuel (Nov 14, 2007)

Gosh Vicki,
I have to say I am honored that you are considering our herd. I would head as fast as my feet could carry me to Kastdemur's to pick out a doe kid or several to add to our herd. We got a buck from Karen 2 years ago and he is doing nice things for us. We have 3 does fresh from him and like what he appears to be doing... My Kastdemur's doe was the dam of our Miriam and she crossed spectacularly with our herd. Then I'd make a trail to Lakeshore and also try to beat Vicki out of some of that Crown Ambassador semen.  Of course Sara's tremendously productive herd would be on the wish list as well. 
Ok now you all have got me day dreaming! 
Sandy ( in beautiful snowy Deer Park)


----------

