# Putting weight on great producer?



## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Looking for advice on how to get weigh gain on a small framed great producer. She just freshened with triplets and I have always had a problem keeping weight on her. I believe I could win with her this year if I could just put another 10 or 15 pounds on her. She gets free choice quality Alfalfa (180 RFV) and blue seal dairy goat pellet as much as she wants twice a day while on the stand. I have tried supplementing with calfa manna in the past but that just seems to increase her milk production. 


She is not wormy and all the other does in my herd are bordering on fat.

Any suggestions?


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Don't try :biggrin
She is who she is. 

But more seriously...
I could not find an analysis of the blue seal pellet to check the levels on the tag so perhaps
check the blue seal dairy goat pellet for fat level. You could increase fat intake up to 6% before causing microbial issues. High fat or Full fat soybean meal (you have to ask for it particularly) will help with weight gain and Rice bran is good to top off fat levels. Top dress her pellets. 
Top dress with a cup of sunflower seed- very fatty and full of micronutrients.

Lamb finisher rations work for weight gain- lower protein so it will affect your milk totals but will put on that little layer of fat that smooths things out. I have my senior doe with chewing issues on a senior horse ration and she is gaining on it while pregnant but then again- not lactation level protein. 
Lee


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks Lee - I am trying the sunflower seeds and when she was milking first freshening yearling I did do top dressing with rice bran oil to get her into a little better condition before breeding the second time. 

Just looking for any other ideas but sounds like I am target. Always appreciate your wisdom.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I have also used raw wheat germ oil at the rate of a couple of tablespoons on the ration. 
Rice bran is really top choice for soft fat deposition.
In fact they avoid it in the meat goat industry for this reason.
Lee


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Rice bran and beet pulp


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

On two does we have we use an equine weight gain called Super Gain.
http://www.horseguard.com/shop/index.php?app=ccp&ns=display&ref=Super+Gain+Details
You do not need to use very much and only top dress with it.
It has helped keep the weight on the topline and sides. No noticeable taste or production difference.
Tam


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Hmm.. Main content is soybeans. Wonder if I could just get some whole soybeans and add a handful to her feed?


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Aiii, let me know when you figure it out  Nothing is harder than put weight on a great milker, that's why you try to have that great milker in great condition at kidding (and then still for some does it's an issue). Me, I am never afraid to show a doe in her 'working clothes' (clean, but skinny) . My daughter brought her (at that time) almost 16lbs/day milking Saanen doe Misty to the fair and so she looked a tad bit skinny compared to the competition. A smart judge, a DAIRY judge, would see the milk just about dripping out of that doe's ears, ask some questions (to make sure she wasn't skipped on the milking stand yesterday - nope, we actually milk Misty extra late before a show, because there is no way we can keep that milk in her until after the show if we can't milk in the morning), and see the quality in that unselfish doe that gives herself away. Nah, we didn't have that judge :lol of course, but she still stood second behind a doe that was in much better condition but gave about 4 lbs/day and hadn't been milked for the last 24 hours.... At the end of the show we hugged ol' Misty and told her we'd take her over any doe at the show 

Oh well, but to answer your question: very likely she can't eat enough to replace the calories she's producing for you, but give her her protein concentrated (based on production) and then add some corn (energy! I know a lot of people here on the forum don't like corn, but Misty and I do.... :rofl) and/or beet pulp.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

So your fat....are you fat because you eat too much steak? (protein) No your fat because you eat carbs you eat to much bad fat. So how on earth are you going to put weight on a doe when it's unlikely your grain has more than 3.5% fat in it? I feed 5% fat.

If you got some weight on her during her dry period, than during peak when she milks more than what she can eat she could take some of the weight on, and then be able to maintain it during the rest of the year. Increase the fat in her diet and in your overall grain ration, and do you know how much sunflower seeds they would have to eat to do that? No neither do I  but it certainly is more than the handfuls we feed. Rice bran is excellent, so is feed bread.


Although alfalfa is super important for her to eat 24/7/365 it also can be said that lower quality grass hay or browse is far superior in getting that rumen back into shape after a diet of alfalfa and high protein grain during the dry period. Her rumen will have more surface area to it, more flora, it will get bigger, which means she can eat more.


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

If you go with the soybeans, make sure they are cooked. I've heard that raw soybeans can be deadly to goats.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> So your fat.... ........ Rice bran is excellent, so is feed bread.


Vicki, ARE YOU CALLING ME FAT???? It's because of what I posted on the bread-thread, isn't it???????? :rofl


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Since it is too late to change your pre kidding management of this doe please consider the parameters that make
Sunflower seed quite viable as a fat supplement if you are toning one special animal. 
They can be more than one third and up to 36 plus percent fat. Even after oil is expressed commercially the meal has 12% fat. It is awesome stuff for more reasons than fat. A handful is quite a boost twice a day with one cup having about 25 grams of fat. Protein can be over 30% and so it will not affect your milk totals like feeding corn can do and it brings it's own fiber with it not to mention the very high levels of nutrients we normally buy from a vet and shoot up our goats with 

Altho corn is the feed of choice for weight gain because of price it is not great for emergency boosts- takes awhile for results and should be added slowly to avoid overburdening the rumen until it is adapted. This is actually the basis for the senior horse ration that Poa is doing well on- it is an alfalfa corn mix with goodies added.

The reason full fat soy is desirable is the same-it adds fat but does not drop your protein levels to where your milk production suffers. 40 percent of soy calories are from fat. Most feed grade soy meal has been extracted before processing for livestock feed and so is back down to 12 or 15 % and so you will have to purchase full fat to be able to feed small amts to good effect. 
If you live near a mill that mixes they should be able to sell you some or order you some.

Rice bran can be 24% fat as the whole bran which also has the advantage of bringing fiber with it and a high level of vit E making any dietary selenium work well if you can purchase a stabilized bran. The caloric content is -well let me just post a link.... this is about feeding horses which we know is irrelevant but the bran info is good. 
http://shady-acres.com/susan/ricebran.shtml

This fat discussion is one near and dear to my heart since with a very few exceptions my does have to be pushing rolls with their elbows at breeding not to look like abuse victims at 90 days out from kidding. Goats apply fat internally as Hard fat first and they must be over the top on caloric intake continuously to store soft fat- or subq fat that gives that finished look. Our girls can do it on very little but they also rid themselves of it readily too. I have accepted that is who they are  Wish that was who I was :rofl
Lee


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Are you feeding the 20/3/8 premium goat pellet?
Twenty is too much protein for a lean milky goat on your quality of alfalfa and 3 is only pet level fat particularly poor in early lactation. 
Get her in line with 16 and 6 and you will see weight gain.
Lee


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks for that info. The link is extremely valuable. Looks like I will be adding some rice bran to her supplements... and yes i have to admit that they do get the 20 percent pellet although I am hoping to get setup to buy feed in bulk soon at which point I will probably be switching to a 17 percent pellet - will have to check the fat percentage on that.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ziggy just cut your pellet with whole oats and the bran. Rice bran will be an excellent addition for all your goats, not just this one. 

And no I didn't mean you were fat  I just meant it as a statement....So your fat...so how did you get that way, not by eating protein  or veggies. It's hard to find excellent quality raw or roasted soybeans, most don't carry the fat which tells you then they are poor quality soy beans, hence why so many high protein lactation pellets although they do contain soy to get the protein where it is at, have low fat numbers. The fat in the raw and roasted soybeans we could get from the mill varied wildly in fat numbers....why I just go with rice bran. Vicki


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## Bar-K Nubians (May 13, 2011)

SO how much rice bran are you adding to your ration? I am feeding a 12% horse feed with lots of oats and the fat is only 3%. They also get free choice alfalfa pellets and last week it figured out that each doe was eating about 4.94# each.

Kelly


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

Lee, yes the BS Premium is 20/3/8. I used to feed it cut with native oats and beet pulp. In my area, you are very limited in what you can feed. Blue Seal makes the Premium at 20/3/8 or the Challenger, a molasses covered textured feed at 18% and I think 2.5/6. It's either those or the Purina goat chow, another textured sweet feed.

I changed to a dairy cow high energy 16% with 6% fat (energizer 16) instead and mixed that with oats. Right now they are getting COB and beet pulp. I mix oil in with the beet pulp.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks all. 

Just want to point out that in nomway is this goat currently substantially underweight - I just want to ensure that she is prime and has that bloom when the spring shows start 4 months from now and I think adding 10 pounds would give her that bloom that you see on winners in the show ring. 

I will admit now as a mikking yearling she was underweight and you could see her ribs - you can't see them now.

I have only had one other goat like that and her daughter is being held over to freshen as a 2 year old rather than as a yearling in hopes that I won't go thought the same scenario again.

I have toyed with the idea of trying some of the higher fat horse feeds and in fact the rice bran pellets that I just picked up from the local feed store are in fact marketed for horses .


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yep, for some reason people want their horses fat. lol


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Ideally, you would address this during her dry period.....keeping her on her milking ration perhaps to keep her weight up. 

Did you read this by Vicki? 
"Although alfalfa is super important for her to eat 24/7/365 it also can be said that lower quality grass hay or browse is far superior in getting that rumen back into shape after a diet of alfalfa and high protein grain during the dry period. Her rumen will have more surface area to it, more flora, it will get bigger, which means she can eat more."


THIS! Feeding nothing but hot alfalfa is one of the worst things you can do. Want to build big healthy rumens? Feed grass hays. Browse. Bark. Leaves. I am amazed at how much grass hay my herd actually goes through - at times completely ignoring the alfalfa.

There is another component that I was thinking about while I was feeding today -- across the board my REALLY big milkers -- the does that are 4000-5000# milkers -- are my easiest keepers. They are the big barreled, stout, and will eat absolutely anything. In particular, every one of them will eat grass hay like it is going out of style. 

Oh - and I like to feed beet pulp. At the moment, they are going through a big bucket of beet pulp pellets every day (they'd eat more if I let them) More calories in it than alfalfa.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Horses are the same as anything. Some get fat on grass only and others are chronically underweight. The rice bran also makes them shiney. I've been using the rice bran with my goats, and I do think it has helped give them an added bloom. I haven't figured out the math yet. I was just adding an amount that looked palatable when mixed in as I could only find the bran at first (not the pellets). I usually use BOSS in the winter, but they are so high this year and I was looking to fatten my whole herd.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

But Ziggy's goat we are talking about would be akin to a working horse, being ridden every day, being shown 2 or 3 weekends a month, trail and or endurance....not someones pet goat or someones ornament horse out in their pasture. 

My girls love rice bran pellets. Vicki


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

That's why they market the rice bran for performance horses. Not because people want fat horses


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Does rice bran give them loose stools or am I thinking of something else?


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

All I ever feed is mixed grass (and weed) hay. My does all have HUGE rib spreads.


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

I didn't read through all the replies so may be repeating here. I purchased a non/nubian last year and I realized right off the bat that she was not going to be as easy to maintain as my Nubians. The herd she came from is a show herd with lots of top 10 milkers. Her goats are BEAUTIFUL, and nicely fleshed..and they milk! But the way she feeds would kill my nubians..I am NOT joking. Her very heavy milkers get BOSS and Senior Horse Grain over their milking ration, which is a custom mix. Her middling producers get soaked shredded beat pulp and BOSS. And the does are allowed to finish their ration before being kicked out of the milk room. She is graining one of her does through her entire pregnancy because she thinks she could go top 5 at nat'l of she doesn't lose condition after kidding (fingers crossed she doesn't have massive kids). So this the insanity of keeping some of those heavy milkers looking good! Haha!
I am doing the boss..and am thinking about the senior horse feed, although all that molasses sorta scares me...anyway, my girl won't eat rice bran or the super gain supplement, picky thing.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I am going to try to find some rice bran pellets, because that sounds like just the thing for at least two of my current milkers, who are losing more weight this lactation than I like. They're both yearlings and although it's awesome that they produce so well (one's a LM the other S), I worry that they're giving up to much. They have all their kinds of feed free choice, but just can't (won't?) eat more. I think maybe I should take those two out at midday and offfer them some of the rice bran. Worth a try. I love these threads!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

swgoats said:


> That's why they market the rice bran for performance horses. Not because people want fat horses


 If only people just fed it and other grain to performance horses and those who need it! In my experience as a hoof care provider, yes many horse owners think their horses look good overweight. Lord forbid you can identify ribs *gasp* :lol

And yes, I have recommended rice bran (among other things) for underweight, older horses.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Lol, well, that's odd!!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

There are soooo many fat underused horses around here!

I just picked up some rice bran to give a little bit to my thinner goats-I don't want them to go into milk with no reserves! Thanks for that!


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> So your fat....are you fat because you eat too much steak? (protein) No your fat because you eat carbs you eat to much bad fat. So how on earth are you going to put weight on a doe when it's unlikely your grain has more than 3.5% fat in it? I feed 5% fat.


Is that 5% fat in the total diet, or 5% fat in the grain ration?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

In the ration (kids, does in the last 50 days of pregnancy and milking). Anyone here only getting browse, grass hay and alfalfa pellets doesn't need grain or fat  Vicki


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Oh, I mean if you were calculating up the 5%, is fat 5% of just the grain part (which I think is what you are saying), or is fat 5% of the total diet? As in, did you calculate in the fat and pounds of roughage with the grain to bring the total fat in the whole diet up to 5%, or it was just 5% of the grains?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Just in the grain ration, there is no way of figuring out how much alfalfa pellets, grass hay, minerals or browse each of the does eats since it is free choice. So I tweak their grain rations only. It is actually the only part of the ration I can control. Vicki


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Got a bag of rice bran and I am going to try topdressing a bit of that for my skinny yearling milker Riley and two year old Sparkle. Tiny bit at first, I guess and then increasing it to a cup or so. I'm interested to see what it will do (and if they'll like it! Stuff's very expensive!)


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

When the vet was out for my old horse, he suggested I start feeding him a senior feed. It was from Ledgends. It's got these little fat/rice bran/extruded bits in the feed, plus extruded beet pulp etc. A very high quality feed that he insisted would be extrememly easy for my oldster to digest and help him put weight back on after his stroke. Unfortunately, Lenny had to be put down and I was left with the full bag of feed. I decided to start feeding about a cup to each of my girls to see if it would help with weight gain. Well, I could see that an experiment wasn't any good if it didn't have a control group, so I decided to just feed it to two of my milkers. I have not been feeding it long enough to know if it's going to do any good, but then even feeding almost a pound per day per goat, I have not have any problems with it. It appeares safe. This is fed in addition to their regular grain and alfalfa pellets although it seems they consume less of their regular grain. 

When I fed the blue seal pellet I made the decision to cut the feed with barley and top dress with sunflower seeds because the protein was so high. They were also getting alfalfa pellets nearly free choice and the grain, mixed like I was mixing it, was put in feeders that still had pellets left over between feedings. I had girls milking 2 gallons a day, and no, they did not gain weight.  Well, except for the one dry yearling in the pen...she was obese to say the least


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