# Edema/Meaty Udder *pictures added*



## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

My 3 year old 3rd freshener is 6 weeks fresh and still has terrible edema. Occassionally it is pitted. She is CAE neg. Just got milk test results in 2 weeks ago and the only thing she tested postive for was enviornmental staph, which was probably my fault. I held the container under her and did not wear a glove. 

Is there a more aggressive treatment for edema? Peppermint oil, massages, and compresses aren't doing a thing for it. It's really frustrating me. Last year she milked out so nice. I don't understand what is going on. She gets vitamin C, she was copper bolused last month, gets whole grains and alfalfa hay, plenty of Bluebonnet Techmaster minerals..Milk tastes great and she's healthy and in great condition. :help


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

*Re: Edema*

Isn't really pitted- looks like cellulite on occasion.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: Edema*

Carli, the cellulite appearance is on does who are really full and overuddered. Some textures of skin just start looking lumpy. I would maybe start milking this girl three times a day? sorry, no advice here, never had it happen this long where compress and massage did not help.


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

*Re: Edema*

I've been told that it could just be meaty udder. I don't want to accept that  She wasn't like this last year, so if it is meaty udder it's my fault..I feel like I've ruined my best doe.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

*Re: Edema*

So what would one do to the udder to make it become meaty, if that is the case?


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

*Re: Edema*

I read that too much protein before freshening can cause this. I fed lots of alfalfa hay and pellets. I also let this doe become a tad overweight.

Someone else told me yesterday that it could just be this doe and her genetics. Some freshen differently each time.

I'm sure it had something to do with my management.


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

Thanks, Carli.


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

My Alpine had edema and also has a very beefy udder. 

I bought her bred & thin so I fed her milk stand grain.....which at the time was mostly a 16% lactation pellet with a bit of BOSS & oats, unlimited alfalfa pellets (Standlee Brand) & coastal hay...... She had all of that for almost 3 months.....and since my lactation pellet says MINIMUM 16% protein, and her feed mix was mostly the lactation pellet....who knows how much protein she was actually consuming??

Bet I screwed her up.....Of course she could just have a beefy udder, but at the very least I think I unknowingly caused the edema.

After reading the protein info I've switched my feed to about 80% whole oats/BOSS mix with only a small amount of the pellets mixed in (I have to special order the lactation pellets and I still have 2 bags left).

Hopefully next kidding season I will do better.

Wish I knew what to tell you on your doe....... hopefully there is a way to improve things in the future? Especially if she wasn't beefy before...


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

Oh, it almost makes me sick to think I caused this. But this was the first time she had ever kidded here. I bought her in milk. Of course she's my best doe 

I've read that the meatiness never goes away. But I'm hoping she will freshen in better shape next year. Bummer.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

Well the edema is fluid, so I wouldn't think that would automatically mean meatiness? I can't say why she would still have it though, mine usually are over it in a week or two when they have that.


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

It feels really meaty to me. Then again, I don't really know how to tell the difference between squishy tissue vs. fluid. Imagine that, HA!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

Well, if it's pitting- you press it and it stays depressed for a sec and then fills back out- then it's water. If it's rubbery feeling it's fat.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

First edema/congestion is inflammation. She is 6 weeks fresh...I think you are a tad over-reacting and would give her more time before making the proclimation that she has a meaty udder. I do agree that a doe who is 6 weeks fresh here has most congestion/edema gone by now and are milking down to almost nothing and I have never had an older doe, allowed to get fat (Bab's and Marisole here) get a meaty udder after the fact....for my herd fat in the udder is about the dry period leading up to being a FF...my FF are lean mean milking machines because they are not freshened late. And the group of nearing 2 year old 2nd fresheners I just kidded out for the first time in a long time, were not on grain that second year until 100 days fresh, or they would have gotten fat, and would have deposited that fat into their udder...on just alfalfa pellets and grass hay and browse they all freshened really, really long and tall with a good amount of milk most milking in the 7 to 9 pound range. No congestion or edema. Now does who are excellent milkers simply have more udder tissue in their udder than does who are poorer milkers, and I do milk them out 3 times a day for about 6 ot 8 weeks because I don't want that weigh on attachments, them holding that much milk in the opressive heat here and especially my Bab's line. blowing those already big teats....with Bab's and her daughter Rosette being the best milkers, (although at 7 weeks fresh Red is milking 13.5 pounds, her lactation curve is always much steeper than Bab's line) so Rosette and Bab's don't milk down to nothing, because milk comes out of udder tissue that you can feel inside the doe.

Send a photo of in milk and milked out, would be curious to see...I do not fret over a doe who does milk down well, milks well period and isn't just milking 6 or 7 pounds, her teats collapse well, and she is only 6 weeks fresh. Sure you don't see it in all herds cause it's an excellent milker. But it certainly doesn't sound like edema. The best things for inflammation, past what you have done and milking 3 times a day, is dexamethazone and banamine. Both systemically but also dex with DMSO as a rub. Rose/Alice tuned me on to this and I have a compounding pharmacist who makes this for me, although I didn't get to use it yet this year  Vicki


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

Carli,

since you bought the doe in milk and then travelled across state line with her (I assume this is who I think it is, an Okie goat), let's consider how long into her lactation she was when you purchased her and also the drop of production after the move. We had does from the same line burst in milk here and honestly, you never really know how much a doe is milking (or capable of) until you freshen her yourself. So I would not compare last year and this year curve in milk production.


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## catdance62 (Mar 2, 2009)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

I have a doe like that, with a meaty udder. It makes her hard to milk. She was like that at first freshening, and has always been like that. Her daughter, however, is not like that. She has a soft, nice udder easy to milk.


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

Whew, ok Vicki and Jana. I feel better. I've been known to overreact from time to time 

She is a really heavy producer. Her teats do collapse well. I just worry about all the extra weight on her attachment. I will take a couple of pictures of her this evening before and after milking and maybe we can get to the bottom of this udder drama!!

I am going to ask my pharmacist if he will fix me up a dex/DMXO rub. It's worth a try.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

Anything with DMSO wear gloves! And it will get through those if it's on them long enough as well.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

Carli, get the pictures on here before you put your doe through unnecessary treatment  It may be needed, or it is just a different udder. Teh girls here have very different texture at full speed production than they do at once a day milking when the lactation is windling down. Once they pass the peak, it is much easier to milk them down to nothing, have you ever breastfed a child for over 6 months? There is a big difference between the size and firmness to the tissue with a newborn baby and several months after that , than there is in once a day feeding an older baby where everythign scales down to pretty much normal size and not so engorged - does this make sense?


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Yes, it does. Thanks!


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

*Re: Edema/Meaty Udder*

The first two pictures are before and the last two are after. The last picture she has "the lean" going on..she isn't crooked 

She is producing 11lbs a day. Her udder in the first picture was 10 hours full. I had to milk earlier this evening than usual.


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## chell20013 (Feb 7, 2011)

Wow, if that udder was pink, it would be my Alpine's udder!--Before and after! She is only 6 days fresh though, so I expect fleshiness after milking. I guess I'd better continue to follow this thread in case it doesn't go down..


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Glad to know it isn't just going on at my farm!


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Carli, that udder looks perfectly normal for a heavy producer, before and after pictures. The teats are milked down to nothing, the texture is soft, the udder looks pliable after milking but of course, still filled out some. I think you will see what you remember her milking like as she enters her second part of lactation, past 5 months in milk. At that stage, it's hard to get them uddered up in 12 hours for shows, appraisal, etc. Christie (same herd) looks just like it , there is still a good size udder after milking but the milk is out and the rest is tissue and no, it's not meaty because dry the doe just has a glove and two teats hanging. I have does that look virgin when dry, no meaty udders here  The meaty udders I have seen look only slightly larger full of milk (and not much milk to begin with, definitely not gallon a day producers) and the udder texture is much different, so is the teat texture. But I am talking about genetically meaty udders, not fat deposits from diet. I wouldn't do anything to her.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Please post a good side shot and rear shot of her - she doesn't look one bit obese from pictures but it's hard to tell, I am judging mostly by the last photo, I don't see her barrel to the sides and actually defined thigh muscle.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

She looks fine. She is lacking attachment so all of her udder tissue is hanging, instead of up near her body, she has no foreudder...so of course you are going to feel all of it between her thighs. She looks like a very good milker.


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Whew, ok, I feel a lot better now. She is a good milker and I've always known that her udder wasn't very pretty, but settled for very functional 

She had twin does in March. Is it bad to want to keep them?


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Carli, 

you can keep doelings. I have an older doe that is an extremely heavy producer and her rear and front attachments are gone, but I have freshen a couple of daughters and I am very pleased with them. I wouldn't keep bucks (Vicki had to hit me over the head on that one, ha!)


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Of course it is no bad to want to keep them...but do be realistic, if a buck was able to improve them 50% in just udder, would it give you and udder you can show or appraise or? See it all depends upon what your goal for your herd is. If it's showing and appraising than a doe like this would only be kept because you need more milk, then when you can replacer her for a doe with a better udder etc...than you would sell her..so if she is slated for sale, there is little reason to keep her daughters. When a FF is sold here into a family milker situation he daughters are not retained...now if I sell a FF into a home that shows, and I think she will apprasie with a VG udder, than I will retain her daughter. But you have to start somewhere and your doe has a much better udder than I ever started with


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## carlidoe (Jul 30, 2010)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Of course it is no bad to want to keep them...but do be realistic, if a buck was able to improve them 50% in just udder, would it give you and udder you can show or appraise or? See it all depends upon what your goal for your herd is. If it's showing and appraising than a doe like this would only be kept because you need more milk, then when you can replacer her for a doe with a better udder etc...than you would sell her..so if she is slated for sale, there is little reason to keep her daughters. When a FF is sold here into a family milker situation he daughters are not retained...now if I sell a FF into a home that shows, and I think she will apprasie with a VG udder, than I will retain her daughter. But you have to start somewhere and your doe has a much better udder than I ever started with


Thanks so much. That's encouraging!!


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## Rosesgoats (Apr 22, 2011)

Sorry to butt in but I have a doe with a lumpy, meaty udder and was wondering if there is anything I should do for it? She is a very large producing doe, about 2 gallons per day. When I milk her out her teats are completely deflated but there's lots of lumpy tissue up in her udder that stays there. She's not fat at all but does have a large barrel on her. She freshened in mid-April. This is her 4 kidding and she's always had a lumpy udder. Is there any thing I need to do? Should I be concerned or just carry on like I have been? Thanks!


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Rose, 

is this the first year you have freshened the doe? The udder tissue can feel lumpy in some older does, old mastitis can also leave lumps. I find it helpful to judge when the doe is dry, the udder tissue lumps go away as the swelling does, the mastitis knots would stay in place. Some does can have cellulite looking udders when full and uddered up.


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

Is this cellulite appearance considered a flaw?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

A flaw in that there is something wrong. A flaw in the show ring is pretty subjective, I have seen does milked out for Best Doe in Show with who very obviously have a meaty udder because they don't milk down like a doe should, yet won GCH in the show ring because the judge couldn't tell when feeling the udder that most of that lovely udder was tissue, not milk. But as a whole it would be considered a flaw when felt by judges or asked to be milked out by an appraiser...which could lower your score, but likely would just hurt your texture score. It's undesirable of course.


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