# DNA



## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

I hesitate to start a thread on this because it seems to polarize breeders. Maybe we can discuss DNA testing on it's own merits without getting into if it should be required by a registery or not.
Whim brought up some good points from the genetic defects thread: (I condensed some of this as I copied from Whim's post)

" Please don't get offended by what I'm about to say, because I'm not directing this at anybody.
I don't have a problem with DNA'ing goats for whatever reason, but are we gonna be willing to not breed that MCH doe if it is discovered that she has a defect like congenital heart conditions. Are we headed for the day when our registry's refuse to register offspring of goats with known defects.? What worries me I guess is that we humans tend to over react, and start discriminating against others when we think we can reach an object of perfection with anything.
One person comes to mind in a quest like this, and that is Hitler......as he tried to apply similar type principles to the human race.
What happens to those of us who can't afford, or for other reasons, don't want to have our goats DNA'd ?"

What defects would we as breeders like to have tracked? Is it going too far in manipulating nature? Are there traits that would be economically feasable to trace and test for?
Since I don't know of any specific motions before ADGA (maybe all goat assoc.) at this time, let's not get into that but discuss the merits of DNA in the context of individual breeders.
Tim


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2007)

One good merit of course would be milk production or I suppose the amount of build a meat goat would have. We're not meat goats so I have no clue on that, but from what I've been collecting information wise is that if Lindsey wanted to improve her line on Alpine's she would have to select a doe with high yeild and breed the son of that high yeild doe to her alpine now, hope for a doeling, and then rebreed that doeling to another high yeild history buck. I think thats correct. :??? This would be a DNA merit, yes, and management (I understand this point too).


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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

ecftoggs said:


> What defects would we as breeders like to have tracked? Is it going too far in manipulating nature?


Isn't this what we are doing anyway, by being breeders? We are already selectively breeding for specific traits. Being able to weed out lines based on their DNA is just another step.

Ken


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> One good merit of course would be milk production or I suppose the amount of build a meat goat would have.


We already do both of these things...not in the same association but through each respective assn.
ADGA= milk production records, http://adgagenetics.org/YieldSearch.asp, bucks that rank high in PTA's from Daughters and dam's with records.
The meat goat reg. do it with buck testing stations. Texas A&M and Langston already have it in place. Beef breeds in cattle do it through feed lot and at testing stations.

Now, for DNA....right now, it's a matter of being able to definitely say that buck produced that kid, or that semen is from that buck. Pedigree integrity, has been *bantered* about a lot. ??Me...?? I'd like to see it used more by breeders to assure me I am getting semen on the buck I bought. Yes, there will be multitudes of straws used that will never be tested...BUT, when it is tested...I would expect it to be who it is suppose to be. Or when used for parentage verification to assure the buyer, kid is who it's claimed to be. It has it's place in any breed registery. Now, for mandatory...still weighing both sides of that issue. 
Kaye


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## Knotneer (Nov 12, 2007)

ecftoggs said:


> . Are we headed for the day when our registries refuse to register offspring of goats with known defects.?


Genetic defects in livestock have enough of an economic impact to discourage breeding affected or carrier animals. Denying registration has an economic impact on the registries too, and I know of only one that has tried to implement a denial policy based on genetic defect.

In practice, most registries have opted to inform breeders/owners and have non-mandatory testing for genetic defects. For example, dairy AI vendors offer bulls that are known carriers of genetic defects, but have other excellent traits. The defect code is listed right with the bull name. Breeders can then make informed decisions.

The Quarter Horse registry is having a big issue with a dominant metabolic defect that can cause tremor and grand mal seizures- and the heavy muscling that wins at shows. All affected horses trace their pedigrees back to one highly influencial halter stallion, Impressive. The AQHA does print disclosures on the descendants' pedigrees, but plans to deny registration to intact carriers have been met with great resistance by some breeders- those horses still win in halter. But the economic value of Impressive descendants in the broader market has plummeted. Most people do not want a horse that could randomly fall on them and throw a fit.



ecftoggs said:


> One person comes to mind in a quest like this, and that is Hitler......as he tried to apply similar type principles to the human race.


Weeeellll.... let's see. Most of us allow elite, specially selected individuals to reproduce- and not with the mate of their choice- and kill or sterilize the others. Deformed or imperfect newborns may not be given heroic treatment. Individuals who become unproductive through disease or injury are often killed. The big, big difference, of course, is that animals are not people. (Elsa-doe still wants hugs tho)



ecftoggs said:


> What happens to those of us who can't afford, or for other reasons, don't want to have our goats DNA'd ?"


Despite some of the "domino effect" posters on other lists, I don't believe ADGA will ever require mandatory DNA on every animal registered. The net loss of registrations would be greater than the gain and there are enough large volume breeders on the board to prevent that. 
I'm surprised that DNA is not used more, especially to verify parents on high end bucklings. We all know that 1) a goat will eventually escape and 2) does are ho's. All those Experimentals are coming from somewhere, and it's not caused by a Lute shortage.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> The AQHA does print disclosures on the descendants' pedigrees


, 
This is HYPP ( hyperkalemic periodic paralysis) and I did have a mare that had Impressive as a Sire. She was blood tested NEG/NEG and it was applied to her papers. Now,


> Beginning with the 2007 foals, all Impressive progeny are required to be parentage verified and HYPP tested subject to the conditions listed in rule 205. Any that test H/H will not be eligible for registration.


By testing the mare...and her being N/N, her foal (from a unrelated sire) did not have to be tested and I saved myself $40. So, it does pay to get in on the ground floor of lots of things. 
Kaye


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## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

Kaye White said:


> By testing the mare...and her being N/N, her foal (from a unrelated sire) did not have to be tested and I saved myself $40. So, it does pay to get in on the ground floor of lots of things.
> Kaye


 This is where I think a big advantage to dairy goats would be. In so many other species breeders are using DNA tests to back up their breeding stock quality. 
I sat in on a sheep meeting where they were talking about breeder's who were not testing for the DNA susceptabilty for Scrapie. The breeder's there were adamant about not testing as being unresponsible.
Tim


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Did you know that ANY AQHA mare or stallion used for breeding purposes, MUST be DNA'ed before a foals' reg. will be accepted?? I don't think the $40 cost stopped one person from breeding or registering.
I do think however, that if DNA were required...it would mean a lot of bucks that NEED to be wethers, would be. 
We've (DH & I) have looked at many stallions and both have asked ourselves.."And he's still a stud, WHY? " 
There's also some bucks that could get this same question asked after seeing offspring.
:blush sorry, I'm getting off into never-land with other species.
Kaye


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2007)

I would like to make one observation here.......There is a huge difference between spending $40 bucks on a mare that sells from $3 to $5000 , and a goat that on a good day might bring $3 to $500 . I've stated this before on here from time to time, that I've worked for and been acquainted with a lot of "rich" folks in this state......most of them had horses or were closely associated with horses in one form or another. I don't recall any of them that owned goats, or had any use for a goat. I suspect that if the truth could be known, that most of us goat owners and breeders are in much much lower income bracket, meaning that every $20 that we have to spend on our animals is hard earned and possibly takes away from other areas that we should spend the money on.
I think that the use of DNA is exciting and will lead to many break through in learning how life is formed and developed with time.
I do however think that using DNA to somehow make shortcuts in achieving better life forms is almost a waste of time. There is a natural progression that takes place here on earth, and some call it the "circle of life", some call it evolution, and some call it survival of the fittest. Either way, skipping steps in this natural progression that allows us to do things like build immunities to deseases, develop lungs that are resistant to modern day pollutions, and so on, is kinda like cheating the clock. At least at my house, that clock on the wall hasn't been cheated out of one second of any day that I've lived here. 

There was a statement made in another post about using DNA to "weed out lines",......and after giving that statement considerable thought, I've until yet been able to figure out how such a thought does anything to promote the goat industry. I can only assume that they believe that they own a "line" that would not be weeded out.
Yea , I'm kinda old fashioned, but I'm proud of it........I still find satisfaction in determining whether a doe is a good milker or not, by putting my hand on her teats and squeezing, and then measuring how much she can milk in a pail, and for how many days she can do it. I still enjoy the anticipation of not knowing what colors or sex that my kids will be before they hit the ground. I eagerly await the FF of a doe to see what kind of udder that she is going to have. I love to see that old buck top them doe's, and be assured that he will be the sire of the kids that come out of her. You see, I really don't care to skip steps on any of these things, because I enjoy every minute of it, and eagerly await the challenges ahead.


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## Knotneer (Nov 12, 2007)

Kaye White said:


> We've (DH & I) have looked at many stallions and both have asked ourselves.."And he's still a stud, WHY? "
> :blush sorry, I'm getting off into never-land with other species.
> Kaye


Hey Kaye, have you read fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com ? Good stuff.

//now back to our regularly scheduled thread...


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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

whimmididdle said:


> IThere was a statement made in another post about using DNA to "weed out lines",......and after giving that statement considerable thought, I've until yet been able to figure out how such a thought does anything to promote the goat industry. I can only assume that they believe that they own a "line" that would not be weeded out.


Whim, since it's only obvious you were referring to my post, I would like to expand on my statement. There are specific lines (at least in the breeds that I have worked with) that are pre-potent for both good and in some cases, extremely bad, traits. DNA testing could someday help breeders make more educated breeding decisions. This is not much different than currently choosing an AI sire based on his progeny's DHIA records, or appraisal scores.

Ken


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

Whim i like your statement very much  
I'm also old fashioned and think that most defects are limited in it self, if not some breeder try to save every kid that is born. :rolleyes 
And still, in my opinion, DNA is a great tool for individual breeder. Unfortunately it also looks like to be need it, to proof the integrity of some individuals. How sad is that.


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2007)

I so much more agree with you on this statement Ken. DNA used as another tool in the box in trying to achieve a "better bred" animal is an exciting idea for me. With that said, what worries me is that in that quest of some making things of this nature mandatory, it will exclude many of us financially from participating in the goat registered industry. Now for me at this time, it would cost me about $300 to get all my goats DNA mapped, and even though I would struggle to pay that extra cost to my small herd, I could do it. But think about some of these folks that own upwards of a 100 goats. That amounts to considerable $$$ each year added to the cost keeping their herd. Mapping all those kids every year will put a lot of folks out of business. If DNA mapping puts people out of the business, then what have we actually achieved in this quest. 

I love the idea of being able to use DNA mapping to avoid certain defects in my breeding program here, but I think most of us would prefer to do such things as time and money allows us to. 
I'd like to dream that someday, out of my no-name herd, that I will raise a goat that will be a foundation of goats for years to come, but if that don't happen, what have I lost? . I enjoy the time that I have with these buggers, so I consider this time well spent. I figure that I haven't missed out on making much money with these animals, because lets face it, there just ain't that much money to be made start with. So at my house, what am I missing by not having a DNA map of my herd......very little.

With that also said; I will be the first to stand up for your rights to use DNA results in your breeding programs, and as you can afford to, I would challenge you to do so. Your results could be a benefit to the goat industry as a whole, and not just the elite among us. There is strength in numbers, so being inclusive under certain rules and regs. will be to the betterment of any group, rather than being exclusive to just the few who can afford it.


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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

Just for the "record" Mandatory DNA Typing on ALL goats has not been addressed by the DNA or AI committees in ADGA. (I am on the DNA committee, and I currently chair the AI committee). There are individuals who may have their own opinions, but as a group, this has not been addressed. I only bring this up because one of the main concerns I hear regarding DNA typing is that ADGA is trying to push for it to eventually be mandatory accross the board, and this is not the case. 

Ken


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Just for the "record" Mandatory DNA Typing on ALL goats has not been addressed by the DNA or AI committees in ADGA.


*AMEN!! * I *do * have a clue *WHERE* this started from and again it is hysteria. :rolleyes Some of which, do not even use AI, nor any of the other ADGA programs.

I agree that it is another *tool* that will not be used by all....but for those of us that feel *safer* using semen from DNA'ed bucks I can relate to it being implemented.



> There is a huge difference between spending $40 bucks on a mare that sells from $3 to $5000


 ,
Not nowdays!! My goats sell for more than most people are getting for good bred mares & colts. 
Kaye


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2007)

JMO, If you are going to have your bucks collected and market it to other breeders, I think that DNA testing should be done. There is just so much of a domino effect on some of these heavily used bucks and so much money involved I just think it should be done. If someone pays $100 a straw or more for semen, most would like to know for sure it was from the buck its' supposed to be from. I don't know what kind of precautions are taken by collectors to insure the right buck is brought out and confirmed, but I know there has been some trouble with this because of chatter on the boards. I think it will come to a point sometime if you are going to sell breeding stock bucks and the breeder wants to get the money they are worth out of them they are going to have to be DNA tested. I don't think it should be mandatory for every registered goat to be DNA d' as stated above though I don't think that was ever a "real" issue just hype. There are breeders (Kaye being one) I would have no doubt about buying semen or bucks from. But there are a lot of breeders out there you like there lines but just don't know them well enough to be sure about there ethics.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I do think we will one day have DNA typing of all AI sires. DNA typing of all colorama and spotlight sale animals and eventually DNA typing of all bucks sold or used on outside breedings. This would still give the opportunity to register and use your own bucklings. 

CAE testing is now mandatory for spotlight sale and colorama sale animals, back even 10 years ago nobody would have believed that would happen either.

I get sick to death of the poor goat owner argument. As more and more DNA testing is done costs will go down like all other testing, and what our directors OK ed at convention this year is nothing...nothing because a small handful of people even will use the random DNA sampling program anyway, so the idea that this random sampling of bucklings doesn't even merit a job well done. It was just a do something, better than nothing nod. It would be nice if a director wouldn't go to their first meeting and get castrated in line as they walk in the door to convention.

I don't remember off hand but when I asked the amount of DNA animals done last year with the tweaked program of verifying not just getting it done and accepting it like we were doing, wrong or not...was a tiny tiny number. 



Whim....you going to come buy a $1500 buckling from me...you only have my word that this buck is out of whom I say he is. At some point should you be able to have something more than just my word? How about an $800 buck. $500? Shoot at some point just because I want to use certain bloodlines, I would be willing to pay the $90 to DNA test that buck to make sure he is out of whom you say he is if I pay $350!

I have purchased alot of goats, there are breeders who I wouldn't touch their animals because of ethical problems I know of now, I certainly didn't know them as a new person enquiring about their goats.

I am sitting on $200 worth of deposits for $1600 worth of bucklings sold in March off one doe. Really think that all breeders are going to be ethical and not pretend when the buck isn't born that he isn't out of the better doe? After I deal with the G6S issue in my herd with testing, DNA will be next. I think both will be tools that customers will appreciate, even paying the extra amounts for testing.

I feel for, really I do those with pets, but this should be a business when you are raising livestock. And it makes no business sense to use animals in a breeding program you are "hopeing" you picked a good person to purchase from. Hopeing is ridiculous.

ADGA is really far behind with all of this, Lynn Fleming wrote an excellent reply to this, I really wish I would have kept it.

And yes to answer your question. I have a G6S carrier, and carrier kids out of her will be destroyed. Just like my double teated or parrot mouth kids. Vicki


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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki,

Below is Lynn's post regarding DNA typing... As I mentioned, it is just our pedigree's folks.. If accuracy and integrity in our pedigrees mean that little to you, then we might as well just write them out on Napkins and call it good.

Vicki, this has also opened my eyes as who whom I would not want to purchase from!

Ken

____

Re: [NubianTalk] DNA typing being required

At the risk of jumping in here a little late and possibly restating that
which someone else has said...I have been unable to read all of the large
volume of posts this thread has generated, and was trying to resist posting,
but my hands hurt from clenching them, so here goes.

I was on the artificial insemination committee for a couple of years, but
was not this past year. Below is a snip from a post I wrote to the
committee chair, George Altheide and the rest of the committee over 2 years
ago in August of 2005:

"but ADGA remains in the dark ages of animal reproduction. There are not
many species left that do not require DNA typing of at least sires, and many
require (and have for years) typing of dams as well. There are a myriad of
reasons for requiring typing which I will not go into here. I will repeat
what I said to this committee last year, and several will remember...If a
buck is worth collecting, he is worth protecting, and DNA typing is
protection for the owner of the buck, the purchaser of the semen and the
owner of any future offspring. Plain and simple."

Claims of poverty just don't cut it. If he isn't worth an additonal $30 to
DNA type, he certainly should not be collected. You only collected him for
insurance? Fine, then you are spending that money on a gamble that he will
one day prove that he is worth it..how is the additional $30 any more or
less of a gamble than the $3 or so per straw that you are investing?

I saw Barbie Hoyt( not to single you out Barbie, but I did read your post at
least..lol) say that an additional $30 would keep folks in her area of AR
from buying bucks. I thought we were talking about bucks to be collected in
Nina's original post, so that $30 would not be required of them. If they
decide their buck is worth collecting, then they will h ave to pay the money
later when they decide to collect him.

Far from acting like sheep Nina, we should have been leaders in the field of
animal genetics, but instead, we are WAY too late for that, and at this
rate, even the sheep will have us beat. At the moment, we aren't even in the
same pasture.

Lynn

Lynn Fleming
Lynnhaven
Pine Bush, NY
http://www.lynnhavennubians.com


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## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

Wow, this is good discussion. I am glad that it is not degenerating into a screaming match where opinions are not appreciated. 
I too struggle with the money issue, Togg bucks are not nearly worth as much as Nubians. But, I agree that being able to assure to a buyer that the animals pedigree is a we represent it has value. We do a lot of AI and most of the bucklings we sell are from these matings. I do feel that most of our buyers are the type who have had to save in order to purchase our animals, it would be the right thing to do to back them up.
We are way behind on this. I think good discussion as to what the dairy goat's needs are and a look at what other species have done good or bad, could allow us to catch up.
Tim


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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

I also, am not made of money, but I have decided to start typing my bucks in 2008. If that means I sell a kid I had planned on keeping, or attend one less show to pay for it, then that is what I will need to do.

We all must make up our own minds... but I think we all have a responsibility to uphold the integrity of our pedigrees. I sometimes think goat-breeders are their own worst enemies... Until we begin to take ourselves more seriously.... no one else will! I personally am sick of the looks I get when I tell others in the AG industry that I am a goat breeder!

Ken


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

*Really think that all breeders are going to be ethical and not pretend when the buck isn't born that he isn't out of the better doe?*

I think i have a blond moment here. Does this mean, that if I order a buck from a certain breeding, that the breeder will fill this order from another doe if the buck is not born? :really
I think, if somebody want to cheat, he/she will find a way, no matter DNA testing. We would need an official person from ADGA, who comes out to the farm, check tattoos and papers, then send in sample. I would not see another way. :nooo


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

The point I was making Gabe is that in a registry as large as ADGA and as old as ADGA should we still be dealing with this issue in it's infancy stages and still just be trusting people to do the right thing? We can't legislate morlaity. We can safeguard our pedigrees, and this would be an excellent start.

We now have an X director and his family kicked out of ADGA, in the end anyway you slice it, they were kicked out from lieing...so to me when someone lies about one thing pretty durn tooting they lie about alot of things. If DNA was already mandatory on bucks, those who have this pedigree in the paperwork could DNA test their stock to verify the parantage.

In ADGA we have a huge volume of collected semen that was not indexed correctly. If this bucks semen was already DNA'ed on file like we all wanted it for several years, than the kids or the straws themselves could be identified without a question of a doubt.

I am all for trust, I buy from breeders who I trust...and it takes nothing away asking them to verify DNA on the animals or G6S or CAE, I won't appologize for wanting more. Vicki


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2007)

Your not near as blond as you might think........I would also like to ask who gets to pay for all this verification that you mentioned. 

and Vicki, it might be that someday I can buy a buck from you for $1500 , but I can %100 guarantee you that my purchase wouldn't be based on his pedigree or DNA results, it would be based on how good this buck looks, and how good his dam is. Also the fact that I believe you are an honest breeder. 
You can quote Whim on this; There is another thing that raises to the top besides cream, and that is scum. It usually don't take me but one taste of scum to not go back for more.
I'm truly sorry that some of you folks feel like you have been defrauded in the past, and I have no doubt that some of us have in this business........but why should all the honest folks in this business have to pay the price for for trying to make these dishonest few honest again. If breeders are determined to cheat folks in this way, I would be willing to bet that they will find a way to do it.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm truly sorry that some of you folks feel like you have been defrauded in the past, and I have no doubt that some of us have in this business........but why should all the honest folks in this business have to pay the price for for trying to make these dishonest few honest again. If breeders are determined to cheat folks in this way, I would be willing to bet that they will find a way to do it.
...............................

I don't want this thread to end on this. This is but just a tiny reason for DNA. Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

It would be kinda' hard to cheat on a DNA test. For one...if it's a person I wouldn't trust to start with, then with the DNA test I would make sure the test is done by a licensed vet. Then if the test is *tampered* with the vet's got to back up the signature they put on the application. LOL...then there's the results of the test. Even if the bucks tattoos are put in another buck's ears, ect...the DNA isn't going to match. Then to go even one step further...you would be testing a kid sired by that buck... and the sire's DNA would be on file. As it stands now...we just have to take a person's *word* for it. AND if you think about it...What happened to deals being made and adhered to on just a handshake? Now, for any dealings done, you darn near have to have a contract, drawn up by a lawyer, to make it stand. :mad Why??? Because there are so many people that scoff at the old way of doing things if it makes them a $$...morality be darned.

This isn't just about cheating, it's about building a registry that is based on fact, not just honesty of a few. It should have been implemented years ago when AI, was first started with goats. Heck, there's still people that state you can't breed a maiden doe AI ????? :really Now, with ET and flushes being brought to the front and used more often, it's about time to get with the program and get accurate pedigrees available for those of us that use semen or have a question about the intergrity of the pedigree. Yes, it is much more work to AI, than to just stick *Betsy* with the buck, and I want a guarantee that all my work getting that doe bred to the semen of a particular buck is not wasted because someone wanted to make more money selling semen.

There are lots of people on this forum that have been involved with goats for years and KNOW the dishonest people. (those still left in the business-if you run enough fresh water into the bucket, the scum will rise to the top and run out first) New people get the brunt of these people because they are able to cheat them. I want to be able to ASSURE people the kids are sired by XX buck, but without the buck's semen I bought being DNA'ed, all they have to go on is my word. 

There are just some things I WILL take a stand on....and this is one of them. 

Whew, that took a lot of thought. :lol
Kaye


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2007)

:biggrin For me, I've enjoyed this discusion as it has been respectful to each other. No matter which way a breeder may view this subject, I can appreciate all opinions expressed here.

So THANKS for letting me be a part of it.....Whim.


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

*It would be kinda' hard to cheat on a DNA test. For one...if it's a person I wouldn't trust to start with, then with the DNA test I would make sure the test is done by a licensed vet*

The breeder only need to exchange the buck before the testing is done, or the vet comes out to take sample, tattoo is not good readable, and we all know that sometimes it needs a lot of guessing what is in the ear, the owner then will need to put a new tattoo in. Or even better, tattoo is renewed, papers send in to ADGA that the buck was re-tattooed. 
Do we need to DNA the parents from the buck as well? Do we need a licensed semen collector, that takes sample at collection day? Will this be the buck that the breeder claims it is? Were do we start and were do we end?

Although I understand why some breeder want to go for it, I think my point is that DNA typing a buck is no guaranty for integrity. :nooo

btw. i would not have any problems in testing my bucks. I only work for myself and want to improve the breed, sorta breeding my dream goat :biggrin. Same with G6S. I will have my whole herd tested someday, but don't care if other breeder test for it or not. If I want to buy an animal because it has something that can improve my herd, I buy it, regardless of the G6S status. But this is only my opinion


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## Odeon (Oct 26, 2007)

If you buy "American" don't you want to know that the items you purchased are all made in America and with American labor? What if your "Amercan" product was really made in Afganistan.. would you care? You might if buyng "AMERICAN" was important to you...

DNA typing is the same thing... I want to know that the animals in my pedigrees are truly there... Accidents can happen, does can get bred through the fence, does/bucks can jump in and out of pens, someone can forget to latch a gate... not every mistake is intentional... 

Ken


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Do we need a licensed semen collector


There's no such thing. There's also no quality control on semen processors. Reason there's good semen and bad semen. :sigh

Gabe, your statement is why it should have been required years ago. Most bucks that get proven to be outstanding sires are collected as young bucks and the owners HOPE he makes an impression on the breed. By the time he's proven himself, there are a couple of collections from different years in his file.??? ADGA and the owner have this info. so if a question comes up...just DNA semen from the different collections.

I could go on and on disputing the arguments...but, WHY?? It's a waste of my time to debate this. There are people that agree and disagree...but I think the people that invest time and money into learning to AI and purchasing semen are the ones that win out by having those collected bucks DNA'ed.
Kaye


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Great discussion! My nickel's worth....

At this point in time, I would think it is preferred that AI/collected studs for sale be DNA typed.
Eventually, the others will follow. However, (love that word...means devil's advocate coming....) 
I think it would be a mistake for Mandatory DNA testing. Change comes slowly, and there are many smaller breeders out there
that would find the extra expense to be onerous....and infringing on their rights (we are, after all, good fullblooded Americans!). 

We all know that are many breeders out there that don't test for CAE...and they have beautiful herds.
Some folks will buy from them...most who understand the issues won't. Others may not have CAE, but also don't test...
they may find a smaller market for their higher end animals...and economics will push them to test and eradicate CAE.

Bear in mind that "smaller" breeders may not get $800-1600 for a buck, so their % cost on their animals is much higher
than the big name counterparts. But that doesn't mean their animals aren't as good...just can't garner the $$ that the 
other breeders can. So finances can play a part here. Need to let the market catch up to the technology.

Just as Spotlight Sale animals never needed to be tested clean 10 years ago, so will DNA testing "catch up", especially if the cost comes down (like the Biotracking Pregnancy Test! :handclap)

Personally, I still want to deal with a trustworthy breeder...and DNA testing may prove that the buck and doe are exactly who/what they are claimed to be, other health issues (CAE, CL, Milk Records, and ....fill in the blank), can still be fudged.

Camille


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## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

Sooo many ideas of what is responsible, respectable, and fair. This is good. I like Ken's idea of DNA testing in 2008. We are going to be collecting a couple of bucks this year yet, and I am now inclining to type them and get the ball rolling. I bet if a portion of breeder's started, it would be like CAE testing and then a great majority would follow.
Tim


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes especially when you advertise DNA and folks respond, which I know they will. Vicki


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

Define "DNA testing". I think it means different things to different people, and that is sometimes part of the debate, because people are thinking different things when they talk about it.

There's DNA testing for parentage verification. A buck is collected and his profile is kept on file. Buyers of offspring or semen can then, if they choose to, have the semen or offspring typed to make sure it is from that buck. If someone is having a buck collected, they already have substantial sum invested, and are hoping to profit from that buck. A DNA profie on file is a small part of that investment. 

There's DNA testing for genetic faults. G6S is a good example> carriers can be identified and either weeded out, or intelligent decisions can be made about breeding an otherwise exceptional animal. Only with DNA testing can you be certain that you dont breed to another carrier and likely end up with a percentage of affected offspring. I think DNA testing for genetic defects is a great tool that can save you money and reputation in a situation like this. IMO its much cheaper to test than to lose offspring, or get a reputation for selling animals that dont thrive. If I'm going to buy a high dollar animal, as a purchaser I will be much more likely to buy from a breeder that does test their breedstock than one selling an otherwise similar animal that isnt tested. Less of a gamble on my part. 

I'll venture a guess that as time goes on, we will learn what important traits are linked to what genes. When that time comes, DNA testing will likely be a great tool for breed improvement. We already see it in some cattle and other breeds, where color testing is done. Carriers of certain traits may be more valuable than others. We do it now, when we look for a buck that can improve, say, an udder. It would be awesome to test at birth and know if an animal has that ability rather than have to wait 4 or 5 years observing multiple offspring mature- almost half the lifespan of the average goat. Used correctly, it might enable breeders to make giant steps forward in their herds pretty quickly, at far less cost than trial and error.

I dont think it should be mandatory, but I think in at least the quality stock it will become common, because its a sale and breeding tool that educated breeders and purchasers will eventually demand. Ten years from now, it may well be as common as CAE testing and cost about the same, because the market demands it.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks for the post Laura.....and it has got me to thinking a little differently. You know if this DNA mapping were to be made mandatory, along with National Identification, this could really level the playing field between small time breeders like me, and the "elite" breeders in this country in a lot shorter period of time. We would no longer be able to make claims of better breeding by looking at pedigree's and then looking at the goat. All we would need to look at is the genetic profile of each animal, and then we all could calculate its breeding potential. The only option that some of these elite breeders would have under this program would be, is to close their herd and never let any of their genetics leave their farms. If they were to, then a small time breeder like me could take the "genetic proof" and make the same claims of having just as well bred animals as anybody else. All this knowledge, experience, and little breeding secrets that long time breeders have learn through the years could now be less of a value to them. The proof would be in the puddin. Wow , just think about it, us backyard breeder's who don't rely on there goats as a reliable source of income, could spend a few extra bucks each year ( brought in from other income) and be able to compete with folks whose goats is their lively hood.

I may reconsider my whole way of thinking about this before much longer. So Thanks for making me have some deeper thoughts on this.


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

What is the difference between the small backyard breeder and the Elite breeder?
I guess it all has to do with money and nothing will change that. It starts with buying the right animals, that are sound and healthy. Having a good management to bring out the full potential, is next. I saw animals with great genetics in pitiful conditions, and i saw the mediocre goat shining because she had much better care. Going to shows, test programs and advertisement cost a lot of money and time. This is how "big breeder name" get known in the goat world, and why they can get higher prices for their animals. It does not matter how big the goat herd is they own.
Type will always be evaluated through appraisal or show. Milk production might be tested in the future through DNA.

I have my goats because i want to have them foremost for my self and my family. Selling kids/meat in spring is a little bit of a bonus. 
I would use DNA as a tool as well if I have doubts about a certain breeding, but not because somebody else demands it.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2007)

The question that I really want all of us to ask ourselves is this; Are we all ready to have our goats viewed as nothing more than than just a bunch of AA A's and BB's on a computer print out. (Whether good or bad)Are we really ready to open the closets of thousands of years of development for all the rest of the world to see. Are we ready to find the cures to some of our illnesses by drinking the milk of goats that have certain type genes, and are fed a certain diet of bla bla bla. Are we ready to determine what next years breeding's will look like by simply throwing some DNA data into one of these computers and let it calculate the potential. 
Determining parentage of goats just barely scratches the surface of of what genetic testing has the potential to do. DNA reviles many secrets that are not now known about at this time. Are we really ready to hang our laundry out on the line for all the world to see. 

I can see where all this new technology has the potential of helping us make improvements in not only in our animals, but in our own lives as well. I just hope I never live to see the day when all this technology makes us and our surroundings nothing more than genetic blobs or robotic instruments.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I am not quite sure who the Elite is. I started my herd with a horned hemaphrodite. Not very Elite. I then purchased nubians who had her milk record stripped from a PREIST lieing on milk test, not Elite at all. My next welcome to goats was the lieing about who my doe was out of, it was a very well known lie on my paperwork that left me with a bloodline I couldn't sell kids out of locally, even though she was a beautiful doe. I hand milked 35 does for nearly 8 years year round with 2 daughters, nothing Elite about that at ALL! It's one of the driving forces of why I keep doing this forum...you get posion on your paperwork from folks like we have now in Nubian and it will stop sales of your goats.

In 21 years of goating G6S is the first genetic marker we have on goats to bloodtest detect one genetic fault. I some how don't think in our lifetime designer goats are on their way. Even embroyo transplant isn't done on any kind of grand scale, tiny itzy bitzy scale.

But give me genetic duplicates of the best goat in the world, and let me keep one and put the rest of them in herds of 'small time breeders' your word, (OK lets preface that with those who don't come on this forum  and hands down mine would beat them...Milk and show. Management is way in the 90% of all of this.

It's isn't us and them. It shows the versatility of goats, one doe lives on a farm and is played by with the children and supplies some milk for the family. Another does this and is also shlept to a 4H show once a year. Another all of the above and does ADGA shows and is appraised. Another also is on milk test. Another has her star, apparised a 91EEEE and was 1st in her class a nationals and is CAE negative and G6S negative. Shouldn't the folks doing all the extra get more money for their proof the doe is better? Yes. Vicki


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

Sorry that you had such a bad start. 
I think Elite status has nothing to do with milking practice. Maybe i did not understand this point?

*Another all of the above and does ADGA shows and is appraised. Another also is on milk test. Another has her star, apparised a 91EEEE and was 1st in her class a nationals and is CAE negative and G6S negative.*

And this is where the money goes and the "small time breeder" gets separated from the "creme de la creme" I do not mean that personal at all.

And I full heartedly agree on the 90% management. 
Now i would like to know which doe is the best in the goat world?


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2007)

Uh Oh, I didn't mean to start this elite thing, but was trying to stay on the subject of the merits and demerits of this new technology. I was referring to the elite as being breeders who can afford all these new techniques, and those who have spent years of breeding's building up well known herd names, and can now readily sell whatever hits the ground on their farm, good or bad, because it has so & so herd name attached to it.

I consider gene technology as every bit significant as atomic tech. was in the 1940's. In some peoples hands, it can make electricity to power our homes, but in other peoples hands it can destroy two cities in Japan, and kill thousands of people in a 1/10 of a second. Fire under control can cook our food and heat our homes, but an idiot in California can take a 50 cent bic lighter and set half the state on fire, destroying not only homes, but lives. 
We humans don't have the best of track records when it comes to the proper use of technological advances, so pardon me if I'm just a little bit skeptical or pessimistic about all this stuff. 

My view on this subject has absolutely nothing to do with how much money that you can make on your goats, or nothing to do with your rights of knowing who the correct sire or dam is of a kid. I wish we could all know the absolute truth about a lot of things that we now wonder about.

I also think that it really don't matter whether we are pro or con about this gene tech. ......I think its here to stay and be used whether we all like it or not.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

Now i would like to know which doe is the best in the goat world? 
[/quote]

Oh Gabe, that is easy...the one that is loved the most!


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

:biggrin Thank you. I think, then I have some of the best in my barn


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> I some how don't think in our lifetime designer goats are on their way. Even embroyo transplant isn't done on any kind of grand scale, tiny itzy bitzy scale.


Agree here!!! As with any genetic "roll of the dice"...you don't get the same quality every time. I don't see DNA sampling of COLLECTED BUCK'S being used to create designer goats. LOL...even with cloning you don't get exact duplicates in outward appearances, just the same DNA genetic duplicates.??????? Even in ET's there's good and bad, depending on how the genetics line up. :really

AND I'm still waiting on that "ELITE" thing to happen here! I still shovel the same poop, milk the same, get extremely dirty taking care of these goats, as the backyard breeder. Maybe more, because I put lots of time into caring for my goats that I sure could use for sitting on the couch eating BON BONS watching TV. :laughcry



> I was referring to the elite as being breeders who can afford all these new techniques, and those who have spent years of breeding's building up well known herd names, and can now readily sell whatever hits the ground on their farm, good or bad, because it has so & so herd name attached to it.


In my opinion, elite and backyard breeders start out the same.... It boils down to who puts the time and effort into their animals to reach their goals. Those that spend all that money buying quality animals...then don't take the time and effort to maintain and better those animals WILL eventually just have a herd of goats. Where the breeder that takes the time and effort to make sound breeding judgements and learn to use management and the tools offered (LA,DHIR,PTA's,ETA's, and yes, even DNA) will eventually have a herd of elite goats. Making it possible to ask the high prices. They WORKED to get to that point, it didn't just happen. They deserve to have their stock sought out.
JMO,
Kaye


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## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> I some how don't think in our lifetime designer goats are on their way. Even embroyo transplant isn't done on any kind of grand scale, tiny itzy bitzy scale.


It is small but it is being done (designer goats). We sold a buck to a genetic company because of his daughter's milk records. They are sexing his sperm to produce 90% doelings in a herd of transgenic goats in Canada. They needed a Togg or Saanen with better than average protein % in the daughters milk because the certain thing they were producing in the milk was attached to the protein.



Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Management is way in the 90% of all of this.


Amen!!

Tim


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

There are boers done here in Texas and back when they were better money one farm had a clinic for ET on her place. It's just not main stream, although lots of us have done parts of it or would like to do it eventually.

Congrats on the buck also! Vicki


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## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

Very interesting thread.

For now, I think that DNA'ing semen for AI is a good idea. At least you can prove your offspring is from who you say it is.

I saw an interesting show on TV about DNA. They were studying why identical twins, who have identical DNA, could have such differences. They have found that the same genes doesn't make the same results. Genes in the chain of DNA can be turned on and off. Which means the same genes have the potential for variations of astronomical proportions.

Just another aspect of genes and DNA.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2007)

Yes Lois; I find all of this interesting as well. As I set here this morning looking back at many opinions in this matter, I see really two lines of thinking; Those who are for DNA testing, really argue for more credibility and integrity in this business. Those who are against bring up problems with cost, and privacy issues. I find both sides to have merit to them in this day that we live in. I however find this to be a sad day myself. It is a real shame on us as humans, that we now have to look into programs such as these to forcibly make people as simple as goat herder's to tell the truth.
I really and truly believe that it makes no difference whether we argue for or against such programs, because the DNA technology exist, and along with National Animal Identification, it will be implemented sooner or later whether we like it or not.
I don't see an end to it there though. As the "powers that be" cleans up the animal industry, and then sing O' Happy Day about it , I can only figure we humans are next in line. You might say about now, Whim, you're crazy, it will never go that direction. Oh really; I find that it is not animals who are trying to be fraudulent, but people. 
As lack of identification, and fraud, accountability, theft, diseases, and so on grow, (and it is). then the need will be to identify, and track all of us at some point in time. Now, I bet you can't just wait to get in line to give your DNA sample, and get the corresponding World Identification number that goes with it. 
I could only assume that all of us at some point in time would look back at this day, and this discussion, and say, "Boy, I wished we were back in the good ole days". 

With my sincerest love and respect for all of you .......Whim.


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## Gabe (Nov 16, 2007)

Whim this is already there for human. If you want to go to France as immigrant, you need to be DNA typed. 
There were a lot of protesters against it but didn't help. 
If you fall in the justice system you most likely are DNA typed as well.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Tim,
:lol I just a couple weeks ago asked the question,"When are we going to have available 'sexed' semen?" 
They've already done it in dairy/beef cattle...maybe some day.? :lol Another of those... IF I was a few years younger? Another regret... if I had just paid a lot more attention when helping with the dairy cow flushes. 
Kaye


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Lisa on here works for a vet who washes semen for horses. Maybe she will come on and talk about it. Cool idea! Especially if you were going to ET...27 doeling eggs, 2 buckling eggs  Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Superior Semen also "washes" their semen. It's a really cool process to watch. Takes out all the trash,blood cells and dead sperm. I don't know if the other processors do this or not...I've never asked, nor been able to watch them. This may be SOP with most. I was impressed that Geoff had a rig hooked up to his microscope so you could see what he was seeing (as far as motility of sperm) on his computer screen. I'd seen it at my horse vet's when veiwing semen...but now, Geoff actually makes a slide show for his records on the motility of the buck's sperm. 
Kaye


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## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

Kaye,
I think that this buck may be the first goat that has had his semen sexed. We had an opportunity to purchase the first batch but it was so low of a count (due to being collected in the late spring) that it would have had to have been AI'd laproscopically. Since we have over 100 straws of him already, I just couldn't justify the cost of using it.
Our processor, Hawkeye Breeders, has always washed our semen. Yes it is cool to watch, I just thought it was something all processors did.
Tim


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