# Open Sinus Cavity



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I asked a question in a previous thread, but it may be lost in the shuffle so thought I'd start a new topic. I just brought home 2 of my goats from the vet who needed their horns re-done. Thankfully, out of 4 horns, I only have one hole into the sinus cavity to deal with, but still, it's nothing I anticipated and am a bit nervous here. (It's on the buck, not the doe.)

Sondra recommended I superglue some gauze down and then spray with furall. Questions: How long do I leave the gauze there? Will I need to change it out frequently or only when it's no longer needed? In removing the gauze, is this something that will come off on its own, or will I need to remove it? And do I just rip it off or is there a good technique for doing this?

Vet said not to put anything on it, but to just wipe it with a warm damp cloth if it gets dirty. Uuuuuhhhh... it's a dime sized hole into the sinus cavity! I'm SO not ready for this! How long can I expect it to take for some tissue growth to cover this hole? Any of y'all with experience that would like to chime in and encourage me any here would be most appreciated!


----------



## Truly (Oct 26, 2007)

OK, first off, I have no experience in this.

But I think your idea of superglue and gauze sounds excellent. I hope someone with experience chimes in soon.


----------



## Haglerfarm (Aug 11, 2008)

Been there done this. Never do again.
I had a buck I bought that had a big scur, actually more of a big unicorn horn. I waited until fly season was over then had it removed. Mine had a big hole as he was a yearling buck.
Anyhow, don't cover it too much where it cannot get air or it will take forever to heal. Ask me why I know.
Did she cauterize the horn base after removing the horn? I hope so.
I just clipped the hair real short around the horn base and used the white waterproof medical tape and taped around the edges of a gauze square and put it over the area to keep the big stuff from getting into it. Mainly hay as goats like to still their heads in it. And letting air in. After doing this it healed over rather quickly. I don't remember exactly how long now as this was about 15 years ago. I changed it every day and sprayed with Furall around the edges and redressed it. It was not long until it healed over.
Les


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Well I "vet-wrapped " one of mine who had her horns banded and was left with a dime-sized hole. But I took it off too soon and it got infected.Even with that it was only a few weeks til the hole was filled in. To get it all well, I put pen right on it, covered it back up with gauze and vet wrap. Now she looks great.


----------



## Chaty (Oct 25, 2007)

I would use rubber cement as the superglue can get brittle over time and may come off too soon.


----------



## Bella Star (Oct 27, 2007)

I would do just what the vet told me as it needs to heal from the inside out,the gauze could get wet and being glued.. how do you get it out without messing up the forming new skin ? Bacteria loves heat and this needs lots of air .


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

The problem with leaving this particular wound uncovered is that debris will fall into the hole and then it could get infected.


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Vet said not to put anything on it, but to just wipe it with a warm damp cloth if it gets dirty.


Do what the vet said. If it gets infected then go back to the vet and tell him/her.

A dime sized hole...pffttt, that's nothing! I've seen silver dollar sized that grew back in and looked great.
If the vet was concerned with infection something would have been Rx'ed to give.
Kaye


----------



## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Listen to Kaye what do I know ? never had a hole in any goats head here :biggrin


----------



## Guest (Nov 20, 2008)

I had this once is a buck that got redone... He had a quarter size hole in his head.. what I did was shave all the hair off around it.. flush the hole with saline water once a day, filled in a syringe and cover very very loosely with a gauze taped, but tented up so air could get in there and help it heal, but keep out loose hay, dirt etc.. to tent gauze loosely, roll a couple of peices of gauze and glue to his head on each side of the hole..then tape clean gauze over those rolled pieces.. and down on the other size.. Flush every day with saline, you could see the hole close up some every day and get smaller.. yep he hated it flushed the fluid would come out his nose, but it never got infected and healed in less than two weeks and closed right up.
Barbara


----------



## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

I agree with Kaye and Barbara. A dime-sized opening is not so bad, I've dealt with much larger

Superglue and gauze sound horrendous for the buck and won't promote healing. You may be hiding "the problem" but not helping. The healing process is actually pretty interesting and this will be a good nursing experience for you that will do you well in terms of wound management.

I've kept mine bandaged for the first 4 days post-surgery and given Banamine the first three days for pain management. A course of Naxcel the first week. Then I change the bandage at least every other day or more frequently if it has slipped until I see the wound site beginning to fill with granular tissue. If the wound needs cleaning (pus or debris if the bandage slipped), I irrigate with normal saline. I rebandage by placed a piece of gauze over the wound site -- I put a little triple antibiotic salve on the gauze so that it stays in place while I start to wrap some elastikon over the poll to hold the gauze in place, under the chin, up around one ear, under the chin, up around the other ear ending down the nose. To really get the healing well on the way you need to get air on the site to have it scab up well -- I stop bandaging when the sinus hole is completely filled in with granular tissue. 

Other than the irrigation, my boys have actually enjoyed the attention of being bandaged and praised. They get to come up to the "people side" of the main barn where I'm set up to do basic nursing, and the does all watch from their side.


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks, y'all! I had responded to some of this yesterday, but then my 2 y/o came and deleted everything right before we had to head to the Dr. for my 5 y/o (ear infection). Chicks came a day earlier than expected (this morning) What a week!

Anyhow, DH & I put loose gauze on yesterday w/waterproof tape, but this morning it is off. If we're to keep anything on it, we clearly have to do more than we're doing. Vet said just to watch it and if it starts to look bad to let her know and we'd do penicillin. I got the older chickens out of that barn to help cut down on dust/debris around him and think I may give the does more fresh alfalfa than they can eat and then give the bucks what they've picked over for a while, so there isn't as much dust or leaf shatter to worry with. 

I'm encouraged and over the initial shock now. Tripoli is acting like not much happened. He doesn't appear to be in pain and runs about and flirts through the fence with the girls as normal. He just doesn't let Jarlath (other buck) get rowdy with him now.  

If I need saline, will just the stuff I can get at Walmart for contacts (pure saline, not cleaner) work? It's a comfort to know that I can expect the hole to be closed within a couple weeks! Will bone grow back there eventually, or will there always be a soft spot?

Another question... A friend would like to breed her does to this buck. How long do you think it would take before he's up to the task?


----------



## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Billie -- Glad it's going well. The worst of the pain is in the first three days -- that's why I've usually waited until Day 4 to rebandage (if they were bandaged post-surgery). The sinus cavity usually fills with granular tissue in about two weeks. Good scabbing should be there between weeks 3 and 4. Bone usually grows back over. Mine seem fully healed by six weeks out, butting with abandon.

There's a product called "Wound Wash" which is just normal saline. 3M makes a more sophisticated variant that has some zinc and other stuff in it.

Here's what a bandage that stays on looks like:








.

This one has a piece of gauze over the sinus hole to help with drainage. I'd used some roll gauze wrapped once over his polll and under his chin to hold the gauze in place while I got the vetwrap on (over the poll, under the chin, figure-8 around the ears). That piece of Elastikon stretching from between his ears and down his nose it what kept the whole assembly in place. With an older buck, I haven't been able to keep vetwrap in place, and I've needed to use Elastikon instead. Just cut through it along the cheek when it needs to be removed. I try to leave the bandage off as soon as possible particularly after the wound site has stopped draining but really like to have granulation well under way before I do -- sometimes I've left it on longer to deal with dust during a construction project or a hot buggy period. Sometimes I've bandaged for being out and about during the day and then left it off at night.

I'd think your buck would be up for breeding by a week out.


----------



## Haglerfarm (Aug 11, 2008)

I never had to use anything for pain as he seemed just fine. I also never used anything to clean it out. I did change the gauze daily and gave it a good look over. I did spray Furall on the edges at first, then put on the gauze. If a little got in the hole it didn't hurt anything. He never even got a runny nose, which I expected. I didn't use anything that would keep the wound moist.
At first I kept it bandaged too well. It wouldn't heal over. The vet told me it needed air to heal. After doing so it healed right up. And he had a big hole.
Les


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks, Tricia! That helps immensely! I just talked to my vet and she said if I feel the need to bandage to do exactly what you said, and I REALLY appreciate the photo! Also said to irrigate with saline if I see anything in there, but that I shouldn't need to do anything at all unless I see it starting to look infected or something gets in there. 

So, looks like next month, my other dog will get spayed and my other buck will get his scurs done (what was a bunch of slivers is now a half moon around the original horn base...) and I will be learning lots and getting a little tougher in the process!

And a week? Great news! We'll be in business! 

Oh... Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Thanks, Les! That's encouraging, too, that I don't have to worry over little speks of dust.  SOOOO glad to have y'all's input! Normally I'd be a nervous wreck and you've really set me at ease!


----------



## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Billie -- One of the things that was really good for me about dehorning was learning more about wound management and healing with the "luxury" of dealing with a surgical wound site rather than an accidental injury site.


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

That's a really great way to look at it!


----------



## Haglerfarm (Aug 11, 2008)

bucks are always much harder to do a good job of disbudding on. I occasionally get those on the edges. I let them go as they break them off from time to time. Or I just take my hoof trimmers and clip them off. Most of mine are loose anyhow.
Les


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Just in the future, a single layer of gauze, used to sift out large debrief, let the wound breath with some protection, the super glue actually works really well on keeping it attached to the hair. Using a single layer of gauze and super glue can also work to keep a teat together that has been snagged, once healed its much easier to simply remove it than stitches that really don't work, plus with a hole in the bottom you can also still use a cannula to ease milk out. One layer of gauze will also keep flies out of eyes that big cattle or sheep patches won't work for. 

I first saw this on a pup who had it's ears cropped during fly season, I have used this same premise many times on things I want covered from flies or dirt but want to let air dry. Vicki


----------



## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki -- When you change the gauze do you just snip the glued hair that's holding the gauze on? I like this idea as a light protection. Any problems with rubbing at it or is it just so simple and light that they leave it be?


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Vicki, I could see after my tape effort yesterday why superglue would be far easier! glue, slap on the gauze, done! So far, I've been watching it, and it's staying clean on its own, so I'm leaving it open. It really is amazing watching the changes in the healing process even just a few hours apart!

Les, it seems all mine have scurs, even the does. I have one doe that I'm not going to mess with, as hers are tiny, don't grow fast, and break off, but I wonder if this will hurt me much if I decide to show her down the road?? Both other does have been redone, and the one that was done most recently, well this was her 4th "disbudding". The buck that I have yet to re-do had these small slivers at first, and they were more movable. Lately, it looks as if the slivers are growing together and they're not as movable. Now, it's almost a solid C around the top, side, and bottom of the original horn bud, with the center and one side not growing. I've planned to take him next month when I take my second dog to get spayed, but the more I look at him and play w/the scurs, the more I wonder if I ought to take him next week and get it done and over with. That way, if they have to put holes in him, the boys can at least both heal together! I'm thinking that sooner rather than later is probably best, by watching the way these progress. They're not breaking off as easily as they used to, either. 

Those of you who have several breeds, would you say Nubians are harder to disbud than others? I've heard that is why mine are having the problems they are...


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

It really is the disbudding tip and not letting the iron heat up between burns. The tips are simply to little. Using a at least 3/4 inch tip that you can fit you thumb into so it is not only bigger around but it being bigger inside diameter also, it sits on the horn roots, and doesn't sit and rock on the cap itself. Disbud early or use your foot shears and cut the cap off flush with the head, control bleeders with the hot iron and then disbud.

Tricia, using the gauze and super glue the goat doesn't even feel it is on, unless they are going to grind at the sore with their hoof, or rub it because it itches. Yes cutting the hair works well, and simply leaving it on until it falls off works better than picking. Vicki


----------



## Guest (Nov 20, 2008)

stoneyheightsfarm said:


> Those of you who have several breeds, would you say Nubians are harder to disbud than others? I've heard that is why mine are having the problems they are...


Nubians are probably the _easiest_ to disbud and not get scurs.

Sara


----------



## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki -- I will definitely give your technique a try if/when I'm in this situation again, particularly after the wound site has finished draining.


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Did y'all see the sinus cavity fill with clear fluid? I am seeing this and wondering if it's a normal part of the healing process, or something to be concerned about? As cold as it is out there, maybe this is the body protecting those tender internal tissues?

Also, the outside of the burn near the border between burned spot and not-burned tissue seems to be a little oozy. It doesn't look infected, just like maybe everything didn't get cauterized there. I don't recall this on my others--may only be a difference of a couple drops, but in trying to make sure I don't miss anything, I may be seeing too much, if that's possible. What do y'all think?


----------



## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, there's some amount of drainage that occurs early (or later if an infection is setting in). I'd irrigate that as well as the "oozy" area. You'll see this some fluid as part of the initiation of tissue granulation. Smell okay?

Bandages can work as dressings for drainage or dressings for protection. Managing drainage cleanly is one of the reasons I've used a dressing at least for the first week or so. When I place the dressing, I usually put a bit of triple antibiotic salve on it -- both to keep it in place while I bandage and for any theurapeutic benefit.


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks! and no smell other than the buck smell that they have right now.


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Another healing question! This tissue granulation that I'm supposed to see... what color will it start out as? I was kind of expecting pink, but I'm seeing white (WBC & lymphocytes?) and want to make sure all is right there... It looks like you said--fluid as part of the initiation of the tissue.


----------



## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Billie -- Mine have mostly been pinkish/clear. When I've seen a lot of pus, I've just irrigated it away in two steps: first the saline Wound Wash that I use followed by a 1% Hibiclens rinse. The chlorhexidine gluconate in the Hibiclens has a residual antiseptic effect. I believe the chlorhexidine concentration in the Hibiclens is 4%, so a 1:3 solution.


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Okay. It doesn't really look like pus but irrigation won't hurt...


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

I was just out to feed, and lo and behold, the hole appears filled! Nice clear to pink liquid on top looks to be forming a good scab with room for drainage still. Amazing how quick this happens! The whole thing (no pun intended) has been a lot less scary than I originally anticipated. I realize we're not out of the woods yet, but the progress is pleasing! Just thought I'd share... someone later on will probably have the same issues and enjoy reading through old posts at how it all works.


----------



## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

And sometimes the hole will reappear for a while, a little vortex with extra or heavier breathing, so don't be surprised!


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks, Tricia! I've really appreciated all your feedback through this!


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Okay, new problem. I haven't been pleased with the color of the drainage. Sometimes clear, but sometimes opaque to white. I called the vet, and she said it sounds like we better start penicillin. So, I went up, got the penicillin and needles. She said 4 cc SQ or IM 2x/day, and to go ahead and squirt 1cc into the hole. I got the 1cc in the hole, but this needle is so big (18 guage, and all I've ever used before was 12 guage for CD/T) that I'm having problems. I get the tip of it in, but not all the way, and the Pen squirts out the back of the hole in the needle and down his coat on the OUTside. UGH. I must sound like an idiot, I know. I just can't seem to get the needle in far enough. I'm doing SQ, as I've never done IM before. She said to do it in the neck, b/c it would be less tender than the armpit, but if I can't get it in the neck to go ahead w/the armpit. I've tried both. Can't seem to get it. He thinks I'm a big meanie and when I go for the armpit, he crunches his arm close to his body. I have him in the milkstand so I don't have to totally wrestle him and try this at the same time. Am I just being a wuss here? I'm afraid of hitting something I'm not supposed to if I go deeper, and for some reason his skin feels thicker now than in the summer. HELP!


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> 18 guage, and all I've ever used before was 12 guage for CD/T)


 :rofl 12 guage is the guage of a shot gun! and 12 is MUCH LARGER than a 18. You do mean 22guage. You're not sticking the needle into the hide hard enough or it would go all the way in. Unless your needle is already dull.
Some cheapo needles dull just by sticking the rubber stopper in the bottle.

Stick the skin harder and pull up a tent to place your needle in. Be careful not to go through the hide on the other side.
Kaye


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Yes, Kaye, I screwed up with the guages.  I've used 22 for the CD/T, this time I have to use 18. That's what I get for being frazzled and not thinking clearly!


----------



## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

And just to let you know, you would have a hard time getting the penicillin to go through a 22 guage needle. It would be really hard to draw it up and then to give it. So, you have to use the 18 guage even though it looks huge!
Theresa


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

""Some cheapo needles dull just by sticking the rubber stopper in the bottle.""

Kaye, that might be it. It has a metal stopper, and the needles... Is it customary for needles from the vet to be tons cheaper than at TSC?? I think I paid $3.50 for 20 needles from the vet when just 5 needles from TSC cost about $6, I think. 

So, from now on I'll stick a fresh needle through the same hole and see if that helps. DH hasn't come home yet, and I will still need a little help holding him steady...

Theresa, that's what the vet said and why she gave me such big needles. Takes an enormous amount of shaking, too!


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Billie you really need to order stuff like this from jeffers. When you figure out how much you are overpaying for each thing you use, it adds up to be alot per year. Vicki


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Kaye, that might be it. It has a metal stopper, and the needles...


Please tell me that you removed the metal OVER THE RUBBER before you inserted the needle???

Like Vicki said...go to Jefferspet.com and compare the prices of what you paid at the vet's and OTC on needles. No way could I afford to buy them at TSC and CERTAINLY not at the vet's.
Kaye


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Uhhh... nope, I didn't remove the metal! Didn't know I needed to! (Never done this before!) Boy do I feel dumb!

Guess I'll head on over to Jefferspet!


----------



## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

I was thinking the same thing


> Please tell me that you removed the metal OVER THE RUBBER before you inserted the needle???


 That aught to make it a lot easier to get through the skin now. :biggrin


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh, my...no wonder your needle wouldn't go through the skin! The point was probably bent back! OUCH!
All new meds come with a metal cover over the port for withdrawl. Remove this metal tab before you stick the needle in.
Kaye


----------



## Theresa (Oct 26, 2007)

Don't feel dumb, Billie, we all do things like this. Another tip is that if you keep the meds in the fridge, once you draw the medication into the syringe, hold the syringe in your hand to warm it some. It will make the medication easier to give because it won't be so thick. (Does that make sense?)
Theresa


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:yeahthat Very good add, Theresa, especially this time of year! 
My armpits stay a bit chilled all winter because I warm meds. before giving them. It's also nicer to the goat.
Kaye


----------



## ButterflyMorn2001 (Oct 18, 2008)

*Re: Open Sinus Cavity- disbudding advice needed*

Hello all,
I know, I don't get on here very often. I haven't had a lot of "free" time lately between work and work here at home.
I "apparently" need to have some work done on my technique. I am the person that Billie has been mentioning has done the disbudding on the kids that she'd bought. The first ones anyway. I don't know who did the other one. I thought that it was time that I needed to speak up and see if any of you can help to point me in the right direction as I apparently need the help. 
I originally used my X-30 iron. I've used it for probably 10 years or so. Prior to that, it was build a small fire, heat up a length of re-bar, and burn with that. I knew that my X-30 was getting older and the tip thinner. I bought the X-50 with the goat tip. I used it on Paula's kids. It was plugged in, allowed to heat for at least 15 min. or more and used just like I'd burnt with the X-30. Hold onto the head, rotate in a semi-circle to ensure good coverage and you could even see the skull when done. Pop off the caps and lay the side of the iron on that to burn the center. I "THOUGHT" I was doing a good job. Looked good at the time. Some of the kids were done at just a couple of days old, others were upwards of a week. All looked alike. Some did have just a bit of a "bump" where the cap was peeled off though. I'd lay the iron on it sideways and burn that but apparently still not good enough as I still had scurs to re-appear. I'd reburn as soon as it was called to my attention. Yes, Billies did get redone 3 times. The last time, they were pretty long and it was traumatic to the kids. I wasn't called soon enough is the only explanation I can give. 
Okay, I'm saying I DON'T KNOW !!!! What else can I do to correct this in future kids? My X-30 is just a little thicker than heavyweight paper now so I guess I'll not be using it anymore since you can't change tips on it. I am stuck with the X-50. I never have seen it glow like the 30. It didn't matter if the setting was on D or S, it still didn't do a good enough job.
After using the X-50 on Paula's kids, I used on my own. I have Swiss type so very rapid horn growth. I did have to go back and redo several of mine, some of them a couple of times. I was able to do them as soon as I saw regrowth though as I'm right there, not a 45 min. drive away. 
I try to help everyone that I can, in any WAY that I can. I just wish that grievances had been made to me privately and not couched in the way that they were. 
Vicki and Sara and anyone else with advice?? I'd appreciate it. I don't want anyone else having to go have vet work done on account of my inabilities.
Michell Shrum


----------



## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

You may have a defective iron in that it's *stuck* on solder or not getting to up to temp. I'd send it back to whom ever you bought it from and want it replaced. You shouldn't have had this many re-burns and scurs. It's probably not YOUR fault but the iron's.

I have never felt the need to use the X50, I've always used the X-30 and got good clean heads-bucks included. Swiss breeds also,here.

Do you shave the top of the head? I don't like smelling the hair burning (some people burn through the hair) so, I shave the heads. Especially on bucklings, as I like to burn the V ridge on them. Swiss are notorious for scurs from this V.
Just thoughts,
Kaye


----------



## Haglerfarm (Aug 11, 2008)

I have only ever used a X50. I love it and not the tip does not turn red. I have 2 and neither ever has. My older one, the tip has gotten thinner, but it still works well. I just happened up on the second one or I would still only have one. The other's tip is much thicker, which I like better. 
When I heat it up, I do not do it by time, but by checking the burn. I just test it on the lid to my disbudding box. If it burn a nice black circle right away without out holding it for very long, then it is ready to go. I have done several in a row. If doing a lot at once, I will allow a little more time between each kid to make sure the tip stays plenty hot enough. which it always has. Like Kaye, I like to shave the horn buds first, it seems to do a better job that way. After burning a nice copper ring, I pop off the cap and do a X on the horn bud with the edge of the tip. Works like a charm. Occasionally on buck kids (if I wait to long to do them) I might get very thin scurs on the edge of where the horns would be. These are usually not worth having to redo them. They usually keep them knocked off or you can just snip with hoof trimmers from time to time.
Les


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

"I just wish that grievances had been made to me privately and not couched in the way that they were."

Michell, please forgive me. I've sent you an e-mail...


----------



## ButterflyMorn2001 (Oct 18, 2008)

I thank you for the thoughts/advice Ms. Kaye and Leslie. Yes, most of the time the heads were shaved, not always though on mine. I do test on a board then allow it to reheat a minute or so. Lots of brands here and there.  DH was looking at the wall in the old barn one day and inquired about the brands... he didn't know that's how I tested. 
Billie, apology accepted. 
I think that, after reading some of Vickie's posts concerning the cutting out of the button prior to it imbedding, I'll be trying THAT on some of my kids, especially the boys. Wish me luck, won't have any to try it on till mid. March though. 
Thank you again,
Michell Shrum


----------



## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

I have the Rhinehart X50. I don't disbud my Nubians until about 2 weeks old and later if one is weak but I never go past 3 weeks. I find it is best to shave closely the horn bud area so you can see exactly where to place the tip. I burn until there is a complete circle around the horn bud while counting one thousand one - one thousand two until one thousand ten (I usually go to 12 on the second one) - then I pop off the cap in the center and sear that. Normally, I don't have a problem with scurs. 

I found most people don't burn it long enough. However, I did burn one buck kid too long and he had seizures because of it. However, with treatment he grew out of that.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep like Tim says most only do the initial burn which is when you pop off the cap and take any skin and burnt hair off of it. Then you burn and kill the root of the bud. There is no burning until you hit the skull because the first second you put it on the head you are at the skull. IF you don't burn down into the root, or you use a tip that is to little, not enough inside diameter or tear dropped shaped, you will miss the root or part of it and you will have scurs. If you don't pop the cap off, you burner tip then just sits and rock on the horn bud, never getting down to the root to burn it.

If you can't fit your thumb into the inside of your burner tip, you are going to have scurs, unless you do multiple burns around and around (all those figure 8 posts you read on yahoo). This is dangerous because if you keep too much heat on the head for too long you will have a sick kid from thermal menengitis.

People come here for help, for other view points, nobody should get their feelings hurt when they ask for more help than they can get locally. And everyone posting has to know how many lurk on our forum, so when you ask a question on open forum, or answer it your have hundreds more reading what you are writing...until you get enough posts to make it into Off Topic  Then we can talk behind their backs   Vicki


----------

