# Conformation comparisons



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm trying to decide who should go now that everyone has freshened. I'm comparing my three home-bred LM's. They are a 2yr old 2nd freshener (the dam) and her two yearling FF daughters. All three have what Vicki was calling "hatchet" rumps in a different thread. Narrow, sloped from side to side, as well as from hips to pins. Plus the dam and one daughter are "downhill"
I guess I am wanting to know how hard it is to breed out that rump and that ugly topline? 
Would a nicer udder be better than a nice topline? 
And is bigger always better, like would a doe who is several inches taller get better scores than a more correct doe that is smaller?


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

I'd be interested in hearing the answer to this, too, Michelle.

Some of my does are down hill with rumps steeper than I'd like. I bred a few of them to my new buck who is extremely up hill. The kids on the ground are the best looking kids ever born here, so far, so I am excited. They are very level without the steepness in the rump so I would say yes, you can breed it out of them, but I'm sure it can come back just as easily. 

Looking forward to what others have to say.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Doesn't the slope of the rump directly effect the udder. I've seen pics where an extremely steep rump results in a very low rear udder, like it's *tilted* forward. More level rumps tend to have good high rear udder, and beyond level rumps have *too much* height in rear udder. Make sense? 
So the *better* udder in one of your does? Attachments? Teats (size, placement, milkability)? Fore udder? Or is there one that has a better rear udder/not as steep rump?
Probably not being much help here. :/
With that said-- During my first Linear Appraisal, my does scored good on feet/legs. Not so good on topline/udder. The appraiser told me I was lucky. ? ...Cuz... it is much easier to breed better toplines/udders (within a generation or two), than it is to fix bad feet/legs (could take generations and generations). 
So, if all else fails, and you can't decide on toplines, rumps and udders....how are their feet/legs?  LOL


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

That IS helpful, Denise. 
Unfortunately, the stuff I've been told about conformation, didn't work out in reality the way it was told to me in theory. Like does with sloped or narrow rumps will have trouble kidding, or like what you said about wide rumps and high rear udders. Now my goats with the best legs and feet are the tallest ones and have nice open escutcheons, but they are the ones with the narrow sloped rumps.


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## saanengirl (May 12, 2009)

Pictures please. It is hard to judge toplines and rumps without photos. Also remember that yearlings and two year olds are immature and will change with age.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Also, how long ago did they freshen. My girls all freshened this last week--Sunday to Wednesday, and they're rumps are still *steeper* than they normally are. I give them a good month before I really evaluate rumps/udders on new milkers.


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## Lonestar Sky (Jul 8, 2012)

Michelle,

In my experience/opinion, It's better to have the proper structure in place so that a big udder can be supported. If you don't have the proper structure, your doe will waddle "toe out rear legs" to keep proper balance. We used to have LM's and one had a real steep rump from hips to pins and not level from thurl to thurl (torpedo butt) but had one of the nicest udders around, attachment and all. She waddled like a duck because her udder was too big for her frame. The answer to your first question is, it's better to have proper structure as this is much harder to improve upon than tissue. I suggest you look for a buck that has daughters with the rumps you desire. How hard is it to breed that out depends on several factors. How inbred the doe and buck is and who the biggest contributors are to their inbreeding and your patience.
A bigger udder is not always better if it can't be carried around properly. If you are speaking from a show perspective, some judges like the biggest udder in the class. Some look at the whole goat, even if one has a smaller udder. I have been at shows where a doe has a nice udder but roaches up with a horrible topline and has to be "punched down constantly", but still wins.. I have seen does fall apart after 4-5 years because they can't carry the extra weight around.

Correctness scores better than size most of the time. We breed goats that aren't the always the biggest in the ring but place high and have respectable LA scores.

I have "heard" that goats with steep rumps have kidding issues and used to have some of them. They didn't seem to have any more issues than some of the others. It matters more if the rump and pin bones are narrow. (the rump does not go wider than the hips) It's harder for kids to get through a narrow passage. I would love to hear other inputs on this issue. 

I hope this helps without making things too muddy. 

Don


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Sara, I'm not really needing opinions on if these does have narrow rumps or nice udders, I know that part. I was just wondering how hard it is to breed for certain characteristics and which take precedence over others.
Denise, about them just freshening, one of these doe's spines humps up really bad in her rump area ever since the last of her pregnancy. It is the worst I have ever seen.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

All my does seem to *hump* up in the hip area and get steep in the rump when heavy bred. It usually corrects itself after kidding. Some quickly, some more slowly. I did have one doe that didn't correct. She was coded for *high dorsal process* at LA. Not sure if that's *exactly* what it meant. She also had a pretty bad udder. Large udder, milked 9# as a FF, but not much attachment. Her frame was as Don stated above. She didn't have the structure to carry an udder that size, and not having very good attachment just made it worse. 
And stature is not always better. There are judges who like tall does, but unless all other things are even, as long as a doe is within the standard height range, the better *built* doe is more desirable.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I am sure you can google it, but isn't there a paper in goatkeeping 101 on what is inherited and what is not? Structure is everything, a narrow doe can't have a capacious udder that is well attached because her thighs will beat down the udder faster. A sloped rump is skeletally (think I made up a new word  sloped, so an udder can't sit anywhere but forward on that rump, which is where area of attachment starts.

And width follows width, a doe with a narrow rump is likely narrow in the muzzel and in the heart girth, all things which a dairy goat does not make. And it can be seen as soon as a kid is big enough to stand up properly, and you can feel width at birth (and no matter how far apart you put them back legs ladies you can still see how narrow you kid photos are on facebook  LOL!


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Well, the reason I am asking around about it is that a lot of the stuff that is supposed to inherited or like what you said about the muzzle width indicating width throughout just doesn't seem to match up with what I have seen in my herd, like theory doesn't match reality.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

There was a very good discussion about this on SaanenTalk recently.

Wide face, deep muzzle, are TOOLS. Look to see if the rest of the body matches that. Ideally it should. However, if that was the case for all goats, (as one breeder sooo succinctly put it) then we could just bring the heads to the show and call it a day. Oh send pictures of the head in for appraisal. 

I take it that with kids, all other things being equal, you look at the head, the width between the front legs, the amount of chest floor etc to help you evaluate which kid to keep over another. Once the doe is grown/fresh, you still have to keep in mind what "may" improve with maturity. And I hate to break to y'all, you also need to trust your instincts. I say this as several appraisers discouraged us about Titania - (92 EEEE at 5 years and at 9 years). There was nothing glaringly wrong with her structure - they just thought she didn't have the width or the bone to sustain the production she was putting out. She did - she just needed time to mature to show what she really had.

That said - rumps and udders can be fixed in one generation - provided that there are good genetics back there to work with.

Front ends and feet and legs take more time to correct. 

THAT said - you have to decide - if the doe milks well, moves well, and you really really like her - maybe you don't mind taking 2 or three generations to get where you are going. Perhaps having a pretty doe that milks for crap (can I say that?! LOL) is not what you have in mind for a DAIRY animal.

PS Please don't evaluate your does until at least 4-6 weeks post kidding - their bodies are all wiggy waggy sometimes (including high dorsal process) and they need time to settle back down. OTOH, if they are 3 months post kidding, that is not good and may be something you want to move away from. Everything is a trade-off. That is why breeding is an art, not straight science.

HTH ......LOL


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## saanengirl (May 12, 2009)

I don't worry about narrow rumps too much in yearlings (as long as they are functional) because they are still growing and will get much wider. If they are still narrow at 3, then you sell them.


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## [email protected] (Sep 18, 2008)

Michelle, I think what you are saying that sometimes reality doesn't follow theory is true. Goats are all different and put together different. Talking about babies, I've found that what Vicki said is true. Width follows width, but... I have a doe with a pretty *narrow face* (nostrils, muzzle, eyes, ears), average width in her chest floor--not narrow, but not real wide, but she has the widest rump, highest and widest udder in my herd. And she carries is well.  Now I had a kid a couple years ago that had the widest *head* I've had in my herd. VERY wide--nostrils, muzzle, eyes. I even called her *fat face* as a 'pet' name. But she had the narrowest rear end. I swear, if her legs were any closer that they'd have been crossed!! LOL She had a nice udder, but it tilted forward and looking at her from the side, you could barely see any rear udder at all.
I still *check* babies for width, because it SHOULD follow throughout... and it's easy.  They're standing there sucking on a bottle--you can see the width in the muzzle, flare of the nostril, width in the eyes, ears--with Nubians..I don't know about other breeds, but Nubian ears should hang to the side/back of the head--the widest part. And then my eyes look down to shoulder/chest to see if the width matches. It's hard to tell rear width in kids....they're little back legs are sliding and going every which way. Heck, I've even checked faces before they're standing. They're trying to nurse on each others ears, faces, ANYTHING. So if I see one that strikes me as very wide or very narrow, I'll stick my pinky in they're mouth and check those nostrils as they flare.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Well, after this discussion, I think I am going to wait a while before selling anyone.  Won't my husband be delighted! LOL
I'm just going to take my time, taking all this wonderful info into consideration and especially seeing what I think about the kids just born to these does. It is not like any of these does is just awful. They are not stellar either. I would call them foundation does. The genetics are there, but they need some knowledgeable tweaking.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

That is what appraisal is for. Or find and ADGA judge in your area....pay them to come out and critique you, especially nice when they are local to you, they know instantly lines that can help you improve. And they aren't going to send you to some disease ridden farm, because they have been around a long time.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yea, if I believe in the parentage and like the kid at birth it's probably going to stay until its 3 or 4 unless it freshens with a crappy udder or something. They go through stages, bucks moreso than does though. Oh my the ugly bucks!! They do tend to come together by four years but before that sometimes they can look just horrible!


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Awesome post, Camille! And folks --that is what it means to become a *breeder* IE, you have to know your lines you are working with, and what does and does not (and cannot) change as an animal ages. 

I have things in my own lines that I ignore - slightly sloped rumps on kids and even yearlings does not concern me. By two, I see them level out. Then again, I am not going to fool myself into thinking that a ski slope is ever going to improve! Udder structure follows rump structure, so you need to look at it as a frame. 

The one thing I think that people ignore too much is movement. How does the animal look on the move? Is there a natural uphill movement? Can a doe walk around her udder, or is she awkward and hunched with the slightest amount of milk? Does the animal track correctly forward on all four legs? Is the neck carried smoothly from the withers or is there an unsightly dip? Is there brisket extension visible? Do elbows stay tight against the body wall? A pretty goat just glides


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Someone down the road is having an appraisal at their place and I was going to participate but I think I missed the deadline. But even if I don't bring my animals I can go. That will be so helpful.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

saanengirl said:


> I don't worry about narrow rumps too much in yearlings (as long as they are functional) because they are still growing and will get much wider. If they are still narrow at 3, then you sell them.


This is exactly my theory in deciding who to sell as a family milker. I have a doe who looked really promising as a kid. When she freshened as a yearling, she did have a nice udder, but she was small for her age and narrow throughout her body. I've kept her for another two years and she still hasn't grown out like I'd hoped she would. I have a couple people looking for a family milkers and she's first on my list to go.


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