# what do copper deficient goats look like?



## prairiegirl01 (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi all,

I've been reading around the website and came across an older post that mentioned that goats who are deficient in copper have eye rings and rough coats. Is this right? If so, does anyone have a picture I could see? I'd like to know what it looks like. What are the other signs, if any?

Do people have a favorite brand/size of copper bolus? How does one get it down their throats? Favorite tool? Fingers? Can goats get copper posioning if they have access to a good mineral AND they are bolused?

Thanks for help with this--I'm new to this.

Chris


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't have any pictures but I can tell you they lose their color, their hair becomes porcupiny, sometimes they lose patches or all their hair. Mine did not get rings around their eyes that I know of, but the alpines hooves definately started braking down. They look much better now that they are getting more copper. Tammy


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## sunnygrl_ks (Oct 30, 2007)

i also don't have any pictures... but the very first goats we bought were 3 nigerians ... they were stark white. After 2 rounds of copper they actually turned out to be white and tan painted.


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## prairiegirl01 (Jun 2, 2008)

I may have answered some of my own questions. I looked on the Saanendoah website (here's the link for others http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html ) and got an earful (eyeful?) AND pictures. But, I'm wondering how best to break the boluses down into the right size and then administer them. Is there a bolus gun?

Thanks!

Chris


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

There are several threads under Goatkeeping 101 on Copper. You might check those out also. I'm sure you can pick up a bolus gun at a feed store or you can order them through Jeffers, Caprine supply, Hoeggers or any other mail order supply company. Tammy


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Every feed store/TSC will have the bolus gun - it is actually called a balling gun. 








They are cheap and useful.
We get the empty capsules to resize the boluses from Valley Vet - we use the #13.

Yes - you could OD on copper if you are not truly deficient and you combine with high copper minerals. We are not in danger if that here - copper poor soils, iron rich water - lots of signs of deficiency including fishtail - which is our best indicator.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

That is exacly what I use, only mine is old and white 

I empty out my large capsules onto a white paper plate and then just divy them out between smaller and smallest capsules. Doing 50 pound capsules and 100 pound capsules so the math is easy when I give them.

You will all have different symptoms. Ours was lack of thin pliable skin you could really tell when giving shots. Our much used bucks had lack of hair and what was there was like hog hair, coarse and wiry. Too long of hair in our Nubians and on their thighs it was long and red tinged. Poor cleaning, lots of true retained placentas and lots of hanging ones that I had to deal with. Just not the amount of healthy good kids you know nubians should have.

With a good mineral and no feeding of iron, I can keep the girls in good health without bolusing milkers. I do bolus weaned kids and bucks. I will worm a milker in a health crisis and when I purchase adult stock. 

Really read saanendoah.com understand what you are doing. Find breeders in your area who bolus and you admire their stock. This is not something to do because you read it on the internet. Vicki


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## mill-valley (Feb 22, 2008)

I don't think anyone around here gives extra copper...must be something that's more of a problem down south? I've wondered because a few of my black goats' hair is tinged red...but I feed a good mineral and their coats feel soft and look shiny, no kidding problems either.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

I live in Minnesota and copper bolus. However, I only starting doing so after liver biopsies were done to confirm copper deficiency.

Sara


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

I do copper bolus, to Beth,,, yep some of us do.. I have alot of iron in the water,,, was seeing kidding problems, fish tails, loss of hair color,, now that I bolus, twice a year... NO problems..
Barbara


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

After a year of trying to avoid bolusing, I got brave. Here's a photo of the equipment I use. At the bottom is the drench gun. The bolus package included the black rubber adapter that fits on the end of the drench gun. I pull water up into the gun, put the bolus in the adapter, and squirt it down the goat's throat.

For me, it's easier to put each goat on the milk stand, then stand over their shoulders, pull their chin up with my left hand and slip the nozzle into the corner of their mouth. The angled nozzle helps, too.


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## Chaty (Oct 25, 2007)

I had the discoloring and fishtail and birthing problems too...had the water tested and it has alot of iron in it...started copper bolus' and the colors are comming back and the hair is so much better...also they just seem to do well...I got my gram scale at Wal-mart and I get my capsules there also..I have Nigerians and it dont take much for them ...just the LM that takes more ...I just sue the milking stand and a balling gun too...tried the water drench and it didnt work to well for me...
I just love my colors now and the wormers work better too...
kathy


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Pull up the chin, add water...and your bolus is not going into the rumen. Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

you need to use the balling gun not the syringe


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## prairiegirl01 (Jun 2, 2008)

Lots of good advice here--thanks so much! Sounds like some use the balling gun and some the syringe with water? Maybe I'll try the syringe first--don't want to send anything into the rumen that shouldn't be there. Those of you who use the balling gun, what do you think the advantages are?

And, as far as supplementing at all, I'm pretty sure that I have a copper deficiency--you suggested it, Vicki, when I first contacted you about my Oberhasli doe with a staph infection on her udder and her first kid has a strange tumor along his spine. My adult whether also has a very rough coat, the doe does somewhat, and they all have very dry skin with flakes (no lice or other topical stuff that I can see). I also noticed that when my doe came back from breeding this last winter she did seem to have rings around her eyes--I thought it was wierd, but it seemed to improve over time. I've been using Purina mineral which I understand has high iron and not enough copper since iron can inhibit copper absorbtion and we have lots of iron in our water as well. (I'm getting a better mineral as well.)

But, if I did choose to get them tested, what do I do? Is it a blood test? I haven't had a chance to read all the way through the Saanendoah info yet--just halfway--I'll get there!

I understand I need to be more aggressive and timely with my worming as well. So, I'm gearing up to take care of all of this--general immune support and improve their nutrition.

And, along those lines, Vicki, you recommended that I give the doe shots of Bo-Se monthly until she's healthy again. I noticed a gel form of selenium and vitamin E in the Valley Vet catalog. Can I use this instead? I'd rather use a gel if I can.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

No, do not use a syringe and water. You must use a balling gun.

A liver biopsy is the only way to accurately test for copper deficiency. The U of M can do a liver biopsy on a live animal. Your other option is to send in a fresh liver from a deceased goat.

You shouldn't be taking this lightly and it is certainly not something you should do because you think you see a couple symptoms or read about it on the internet. You need to have liver biopsies done to confirm a diagnosis.

Sara


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## prairiegirl01 (Jun 2, 2008)

So has everyone who uses boluses had the liver biopsies? If not, why not?

Chris


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

Your other choice is to test your theory on one of your live (valuable?) goats. Maybe it will work and they'll be fine. On the other hand, maybe it will kill them. Your choice.

I think my herd and herd health speak for themselves. You do what you want.

Any questions?

Sara


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## prairiegirl01 (Jun 2, 2008)

I didn't intend to offend you Sara, just looking for more information. I'm an "information hound."

Thanks for your help.

Chris


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

No offense taken.  I just want to make you aware of the seriousness of copper bolusing. I would never recommend bolusing without liver biopsies done first.

Sara


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Sara, how would be the best way to get an accurate test that would show the real status of the herd? 

Do we send in any liver? Or would it be from a young wether or an older wether? Does it matter?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

You of course would want to use a doe who has lived on your program for a few years. Does who are heavy milkers, like Sara's, would of course be who you should test, they would have much higher copper needs and would show you your true status. Young animals would have little to no value, especially a wether who is not making sperm or anything that would stress his system.

Blood testing doesn't work because they don't store copper in their blood. 

The "I haven't read all the way through saanendoah.com" just irritates me to no end. It's some of the ONLY goat testing done on thousands of goats, not sheep not cattle, not BS that is passed around the internet as gospel...sites have now copied Joyce's information and are pretending it is their information. Read her site before it goes down and all the links are gone..save the information it is invaluable to us. Really should be a pamphlet that ADGA puts out.

We have tried to explain that you can't use water to give things into the rumen, or pull their head up passed their shoulders, it puts whatever you are giving into another stomach chamber. Because someone does it that way does not make it right, it in fact makes it wrong. Is the person you are getting advice from Joyce? or is it someone who has done one liver biopsy to know what they are doing is right?

So it's not offense we take, it's exhaustion.

Do it right, if I lived in Minnesota and I knew Sara bolused, yes I would shirt tail off her info, but I also would test the first goat I had to put down. I would bolus correctly and then if I wanted to test the water bolus theory or the copper sulfate in water theory I would do it to someone who wasn't valuable to my herd. After you have read saanendoah.com you will see why all these questions about it are moot, she answers more than you could ever need to know on there.

All we can do is tell you what we do, but passed that you have to take responsiblity for your own does. I don't want the responsiblity or the blame when there is problems.

Vicki


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

"Young animals would have little to no value, especially a wether who is not making sperm or anything that would stress his system."

Well, that's why I asked. We butcher wethers every year, but they are younger. 

We only have 20 or so goats here so am trying to figure out how we can do this. 

Just supposing, if you use the liver from a animal that is sick and seems likely to die. Is that liver biopsy worth anything?


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

Jo,

You are fairly close to the U of M (much closer to the U of M than I am). Why don't you do a liver biopsy on a live animal since you have no other good candidates?

Sara


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I wouldn't do a liver biopsy on someone chroncially ill that the drugs would have effected the liver...but pnemonia or entero something like that....I have used one who we put down for age, and another who was dieing right after kidding and 2 bucks now. Bab's was slated for last year when she blood tested pregnant 

I just know in the back of my mind anything I put down who is older and been here awhile, I open up, take out the liver, put a slice in the freezer to send in when I have time. Vicki


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Also what Vicki said, be aware that illness or stress will cause different results. On our place we tested a young buck (10 months) and a 6 yr old doe. Both had been bolused. One tested on thehigh range of normal. The other tested unbelievably low... So test more than once if you can from diffferent animals and take the whole picture into account.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

"Why don't you do a liver biopsy on a live animal since you have no other good candidates?"

That's what I'm thinking we are going to do, but I want to do it right. I have a doe who is going in the freezer this fall so if we do it she'll be the one. I was just wondering what animal in what stage of life, would give us the best indicator of their status. 

Would anything that we do screw it up? Changing feed or something? 

Vicki, that's a good idea! I shall have to copy that. 


Do you do biopsies every year to keep track of things or after a while do you let them go?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't have adult deaths every year. My herd since 2001 is relatively young...Bab's was going because of not being able to get the lard butt bred  Knock wood we don't have alot of mortality here. I would want to redo your liver biopsy on another goat if you had a major change of minerals, water, moved to a new farm etc... vicki


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

OH MY GOSH! I am so glad I came back to read this thread. Don't pull their heads up? :/

I was so proud that I'd gotten brave and bolused. Now, I find out I did it wrong.

How do you get it in if you don't lift their heads? HELP!


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## prairiegirl01 (Jun 2, 2008)

Wow, do I feel misunderstood. I only just found the Saanendoah information yesterday--I DID in fact, read it all the way through today at lunch--it's not like I'm trying to ignore all the wisdom out there, just doing my best as fast as I can. Based on what I read, it makes sense to treat my micro-herd for copper deficiency. Can one use a half dosage to boost copper without running the risk of overdosing? 

Also, I have ONE adult doe (2 yrs.) and ONE adult whether (2 yrs.) and one buckling. A tiny herd compared to most of you. We milk for our own use and not much else. No one is likely to need to be put down in the near future, so it would have to be a live biopsy. I am still getting my mind around all this. I would have to travel with my doe or whether to get the biopsy and I don't even know how much it is or what it entails. Sara, how do I go about this?

Is there anything I can/should do short of the liver biopsy?

I've asked around a few of the small local goatkeepers and I don't know anyone personally who boluses. And, there is a wide variety on the quality of minerals used. Some use mineral blocks, others the Purina minerals. 

Vicki, sounds like I misunderstood your comments about water and head-raising too--I'll use the bolus gun and try to keep heads level? Down?


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## jimandpj (Mar 11, 2008)

My first goats had many of the outward symptoms of copper deficiency. But I didn't have any livers to biopsy, and wasn't about to bolus without having that information.

So I did some research, and discovered that raisins were very high in copper. Since I have a small herd, I would give the goats raisins as treats. Those with the worst symptoms got more than others (a handful at each milking). After several months, my copper deficiency outward symptoms disappeared. No more fish tails or reddish coats on black goats. Adding raisins was the only part of my management I changed.

Since I didn't do any liver biopsies before or after, I do not know if the raisins actually changed their copper levels or not. But I do know that the outward symptoms disappeared.

Fortunately, I have not had any adult deaths. But when I do, I will have the liver biopsied, and will know whether or not to start bolusing. Until then, I stick with the raisins.

PJ


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I posted a reply (I think) that went into the ether.

I really need help here. The bolus devices that look like a plastic stick won't hold the smaller capsule. I don't know how to administer the bolus using that type gun and restrain the goat and not lift her head.

Please advise.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I just put a glob of probiotics onto it and it glues it to the 'stick'  Peanut butter or anything like that would work...just don't jam it down into it or you won't get it out. Vicki


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## DostThouHaveMilk (Oct 25, 2007)

A very obvious copper deficient goat;








We had had Giselle less than a year. This photo was taken in March. She had delivered the twins behin her in November. It was a long hard winter and I hate admitting things got this bad, but they are a good pictorial with regards to Copper deficiency. She was not the only one showing strong signs of copper deficiency. Most of them that showed the outward signs were animals brought into the herd. We were seeing thick sacks at birth as well.

Giselle about 3 months after bolusing;


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## prairiegirl01 (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks for the additional information. I appreciated the photos of Giselle--what a beautiful girl she is now! And the tip about raisins--who knew! I also thought I could add a small scoop of mineral (TBSP or so) to what my doe is eating on the milk stand since she doesn't seem that interested in the loose minerals I have out for them all the time. I can do that for the whether as well. The buckling is still a concern since he was born with that wierd tumor along his spine. He seems perfectly healthy otherwise. A friend of mine who is a dealer for Dynamite minerals says she knows of someone who used copper supplements to reduce/eliminate tumors, but Mocha isn't eating enough grain yet to get much down him that way. He's also suspicious of anything new--maybe I can get him to eat it on cut up apples and carrots and raisins! I'll try supplementing before I take the next steps with bolusing.

Thanks, again.

Chris


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

How much does it cost to do a liver biopsy?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

OK I just answered this right before kidding season started...cause I called and asked where we were sending it and how much..I know it was less than $100 even with her shipping it because I didn't think it was expensive. How is that for an answer  Vicki


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