# mineral questions



## baileybunch (Oct 26, 2007)

Trace? Chelated? Synthetic? What other types are there? How do you know which you are getting in your mineral mix? Which is best? I've been reading up on minerals and mineral mixes and trying to learn why I do what I do! Not just "because my goat group suggested it". So does anyone out there have some helpful information about minerals?

I've been reading and searching on line but would like some input from, yes!, my goat group! :biggrin


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Susie I know am not answering your questions but this is what is in Tech Master that Vicki and I use.

Ingrediets
Monocalcim Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Dried Moasses, Yeast Culture, Dehydrated Kelp Meal , Potassium Amion Acid Complex, Potassium Chloride, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Sulfate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Zince Sufid Chelate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Oxide, Cobalt Carbonate, Lecithin, Soybean Oil, Mineral Oil, Natural and Artificial Flavors, Dried Aspergitlus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Feermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillius, -Acidopphilus Fermentation Product, Vitamin A, Bitamin D3, Vit E, Choline Dhloride, Riboflavin, Niacin, Calcium Pantothemnate,Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Calcium iodate, Ethyfendediamine Dihydriodide, Thiamin Mononitrate, Folice Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vit b-6) Vit B-12


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## baileybunch (Oct 26, 2007)

Linda?!  I'm Susie! :biggrin Thanks for the response. And I am using Tech Master Complete now, too. What I am trying to learn is how to identify what form of minerals is being used and which form is the best absorbed. How do I know that "Momocalcium Phosphate" is trace, chelated or synthetic?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

DUH changed the name these screen names keep me bum fuddled.
that is a chemical induced product
http://www.emfema.org/minerals/monocalcium phosphate.htm


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't even know how to answer you. I know you want me to point you to a website or book, and cause I said so only works on children. And I can't point you in the direction of one book or one website, just in years of trying this or that, asking this person and that and testing.

I prefer some mills products over others because it's not just label appeal, it's quality of products. Finding other minerals with any chealted minerals in them, kelp, yeast, is tough. Grain products by this same mill with equal high quality minerals and biotin, probiotics, lisine etc in them. 

Feeding and mineral programs really become personal quests each of us go onto. In the beginning it's enough to rely on someone who knows more than you do and has goats you admire...but I also know I moved off my mentors program also when I learned more.

So this is no answer for you, other than to just search, test and don't get sucked in by the advertising. Vicki


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## Feral Nature (Oct 26, 2007)

I have been using Cargill Right Now Emerald and am hoping to find Cargill Right Now Onyx. The Cargill Right Now line is made for cattle and the different "colors" (Emerald, Bronze, Gold) are for different times of the year depending on what type of forage is growing during that season. The Cargill Right Now "Onyx" is the show cattle blend, also designed for cattle under stress. It has more minerals in it and I believe it is what Sharon was using (?).

Anyway, my DH Billly could only find the Emerald. My goats are ga-ga for it. I still have to bolus them with copper though as they do still show deficincy as soon as the previous bolus wears off.

But this Cargill cattle mineral is a product my goats really like and I can get locally at a resonable price. Much cheaper than a horse mineral.

The Emerald has 2,500 ppm copper and low salt at 15% which is important to me. I do not like to buy high salt minerals as they eat less of those.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

If you see the sulfate or sulfite after a mineral like zinc, or copper then it's an inorganic mineral. Inorganic minerals are what are the closest thing to what we find in soils and metals. On a cautionary note, they also tend to be more difficult to use than most chelates, more toxic in large does, and more difficult for the body to absorb and get rid of. 

A chelated mineral is a inorganic mineral that is bound to a protien (amino acid) or an enzyme. This mimics closely how minerals are found in nature in herbs and plants. 
Sometimes they are called amino acid compounds, or complexes. Some common names are proteinate or glycinate and the copper source I use for myself is called copper gluconate. All metallic minerals (or trace minerals) can be chelated. These are cobalt, copper, manganese, zinc, iron, and maybe I left some out. 
Sadly not all chelated minerals are the same, with the same effect on the body. There are brand differences, and differences to what they are bonded to. Most minerals mixes have some chelates in them but these are generally too expensive to use exclusively so they add a small amount of chelates and then also add inorganic minerals too. That's why you might see two kinds of a mineral on a label. Chelates also seem to help inorganic minerals be absorbed and this is also why some manufactures like to add both kinds. 

Most kinds can be searched for on google if you want to check on a product.


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

Is anyone on this forum using Mary Kellogg's minerals? I'd sure like to hear if those using them are having as good a result as I suspect they should, but since the new knees I don't have any goats again (yet) so haven't done my own research.

Thanks,
Ellie


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## baileybunch (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't know of anyone here who uses Maxi-Min but I origianlly found out about it through a goat farm website. Thanks for the help on identifying minerals...still clear as mud!


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

I am using maxi-min. what would you like to know?


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

What are your results? Have you seen a big difference, little difference or no difference? I'd like to do an article about minerals one of these days, so I'm looking for info and annecdotal experiences.

Thanks,

Ellie


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

yes, I've seen a big difference in the goats since we have been using them. Less signs of copper deficiency, no goaty milk taste. Also the milk isn't separating when frozen. (These last two things have to do with cobalt, I think.) The goats like these minerals a lot too. I can't give them a huge amount at a time for fear they will just keep eating them, so I give them a couple times a week. I do not cut them with salt. So they have been on them for a year and a half or close to two years, and we do like how the goats look. 

Oh yeah, I have a lot of black goats so we are also seeing much less color fading in them, too. All of the girls have had strong heats this past fall; most are bred for feb/march kidding. Back when we first got these goats, heats were very scarce, or were very "quiet." Not anymore though. Before we bred them heat time turned into a circus, with the does butting and fighting for the best place to stand on the fence and flag the bucks. I take it as a good sign of a return of fertility and health. 
So yes, we are happy with them and I'm going to order them again for a another year or two and we'll see if we keep getting good results. :lol


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## ellie (Nov 17, 2007)

Thanks, Jo, great info, and congrats on your results. That's pretty much as I suspected given the research and care that's gone into the formulation. 

Ellie


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## 2Sticks (Dec 13, 2007)

Where can the Maxi-Min be purchased?
Tamera


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ellie, I will add that this idea of feeding livestock minerals that are not diluted with salt is a horrific one to me.

Livestock should have access to salt everyday, not a few times a week. Goats are given alot of intelligence they do not have in being able to go to mineral formulations, or 'smorgusboards of minerals' a quote from Dr. Samuel Guss...and then say "Oh, I need some molybellum today", as they choose from minerals, vitamins, kelp, yeast, baking soda etc.... When in fact goats go to mineral for salt cravings, which are now being scewed with the whole molassas thing. So now we take out the salt, and give free access to minerals, minerals that can be overdosed, and copper sulfates that are known to be dangerous in the rumen each day. This is a fact not antedotal, copper sulfate in the rumen is harmful.

I hate this whole internet idea that if something works, lets use more and more and more of it.

Because there are specific problems in Oklahoma that this mineral was formulated for them, it does not mean that anyone has ran one liver biopsy, one blood test, or do you know if molybelum or magnesium is a problem in your area that you should feed it straight? Do you need this amount of magnesium in your herd? If a copper bolus study in the pacific Northwest says to use 1/3 of a bolus, do you then give a whole one? Then because of the internet.....without one copper liver study in your area of the united states by one breeder you then bolus all your stock?

This whole antedeotal way of raising stock is not an improvement to me. I hate to be DMR but where are the nutritionists from mills you are purchasing your stuff from, helping you with rations? 

And one antedotal piece of info from one herd, and then a new person comes on this thread to ask where this product can be purchased.

Are they going to put it out 24/7/365 like minerals are fed? Sprinkle it over grain? Use it every 3 days, every 6 days? 

I feel very sorry for new people without mentors, who are having to disern between real information and antedotal information that means nothing when you look at it passed face value. With no testing. Makes me a little bit angry to be honest, because then when in crisis mode, is this mineral realted problems or something else. Vicki


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

The maxi-min information provided says that they can be diluted with salt. She does give instructions for this and if you talk with her she will tell you why and how.

Goodness, I should have made it absolutely clear that I wrote what _I _do, and Eek, I'm just too lazy to mix the salt in with the minerals. BUT I put out cups not pounds and nobody gets too much.  Mary Kellog just doesn't include salt in the recipe because it is easily available everywhere, and why pay all that shipping on it? She does give instructions for mixing it in. _I _have a minerals shed where I can put out individual supplements and salt is in there along with kelp, and the minerals. The shed has lots of compartments so I can break up the minerals and all the goats get to eat what they think they need. It's unscientific, I know.

The minerals mix does not have molasses in it.

I probably should have just answered you privately, Ellie. I have the feeling that this mineral is going to meet the needs of those goat keepers in the northern u.s. better than other mineral mixes. I think it would be foolish to bolus along with using this mineral, and I do not think she recommends it.

Mary Kellog is great to talk to and she an tell anyone who is interested in the minerals mix about why she includes certain ingredients, or why it has higher cobalt or copper than other minerals mixes. Anyone interested in it should talk to her about it first. I don't have her email handy, but a few weeks back somebody posted her information. You can probably search for it.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Monocalcium phosphate is manufactured from specifically prepared (defluorinated) wet-process phosphoric acid and calcite raw materials. (This would be dolomite or other rock powders, oyster shells, bones, high in calcium.)

Monocalcium phosphate is used as a fodder additive and as a supplement to birds and poultry feeds. This product supplements the feed ratio by phosphorus and calcium - mineral elements so important for formation of steady bones, normal functioning of energy, albumen metabolism, reproduction, neural and immunity systems. Mineral additive of such composition is especially beneficial for herbivorous animals. (http://www.lifosa.com/en/produktai/prod_moca.html)

Monocalcium phosphate is available commercially in the anhydrous or monohydrate form. Both are used as a leavening acid to replace cream of tartar in foods, 'straight baking powder' is a mixture of monocalcium phosphate monohydrate and sodium hydrogen carbonate. Monocalcium phosphate is used extensively in the fertiliser industry, when it was noted in 1880 that acidulated bones (containing tricalcium phosphate) made good fertiliser.

other names: calcium phosphate, monobasic, monohydrate, calcium tetrahydrogen diorthophosphate.

just try googling what you want to know about.


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## baileybunch (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks, Jo. I was using Monocalcium Phosphate as an example. I'm still not getting it. What key words would I look for to tell if a mineral is trace, chelated or synthetic? Does that make sense? As in will I see "chelated <blank>"? Or, as in what you posted for Monocalcium Phosphate, it said "manufactured". Is that a key? Or will this be a mystery to someone like me. :?


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

If it has chelated minerals than most likely the tag is going to say chelated or it is going to name the mineral as a protinitate, amino acid complex, or a chelate in the ingredient list and all of them boast about increased "bio-availability" of the minerals. I'm not sure if manufacturers are required to mention if the minerals are chelates or not.

For instance, if you look at the tech master, it says which ones are chelated on the tag; "magnesium amino acid chelate" for instance, and it says which ones are not like- copper sulfate, copper oxide and cobalt carbonate.

I do not think there are synthetic minerals. (However, there are synthetic vitamins) If I remember correctly, there are what they consider macro-minerals (like salt-potassium) and then there are trace minerals like copper, cobalt ect. To make a chelated mineral they bind a trace mineral to a protien, amino acid or an enzyme in a chemical process to make it easier on the body to utilize.

Monocalcium phosphate is calcium and phosphorus bound together to make one supplement. They are calling it manufactured because they are putting them together in a chemical process to sell it as "monocalcium phosphate."

In nature however, quite often minerals are bound together in the soil or mining deposits. Dolomite is calcium and magnesium plus other trace minerals.

So generally what I do is if I see a name I don't recognize I look it up. There are some articles out there on reading mineral tags but none I've seen from a goat perspective. This one has a table of common ingredients in it: http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1287w.htm

Most manufacturer's have information about their mineral mixes that you can get a hold of. You can also call or email the companies for info about ingredients. I wouldn't hesitate to ask them. That's about what I know. Maybe someone else knows if there is a good book or website out there that explains livestock supplements? Perhaps they will share it with us.


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## baileybunch (Oct 26, 2007)

Thank You! That's exactly what I needed to know. I was just curious about what type of minerals were used in mineral mixes and how to identify them. Thank you very much! Your information was very helpful.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> _I _have a minerals shed where I can put out individual supplements and salt is in there along with kelp, and the minerals. The shed has lots of compartments so I can break up the minerals and all the goats get to eat what they think they need. It's unscientific, I know.


Wow, you're giving your goats a lot of credit don't you think? Letting goats 'choose' what they need is pretty far fetched. It's like relying on a 4 year-old to go to the cupboard and pick what foods are best for him. Ummm... don't think so!

Sara


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

In many ways I was really lucky when starting out, there wasn't alot of money to be had in marketing goat products. And Dr. Guss's old book was our bible. If you don't care for my 'say it like it is' way of speaking, you will dislike him even more  

At some point to make money you have to do away with fluff, and a smorosboard of minerals for goats to choose from is fluff. Now I will grant that in a more natural situation where they can walk through acres of pasture or virgin forest and glean this plant or that, yes I am sure it does account for the health of my goats here I am sure...but minerals in buckets with salt and sugars? And eating less of their high copper mineral I want them to because they prefer kelp or yeast or the sugar? Nope. One mineral out free choice, if your mineral doesn't contain kelp or yeast or you feed alot of molassas so you need baking soda, than mix it into your mineral, making sure you understand as you mix you are diluting your PPM of things your goat actually needs.

Sara, imagine owning stock in Kelp and BOSS  Vicki


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Hmm, let me wright this again. I put out salt. I put out the plain maxi-min minerals and I put out kelp. 

I don't put out fluff. I don't put out sugar. I don't put out molasses. I don't put out baking soda. 

I don't want them eating kelp when they need the minerals. I don't want them eating salt, when they need the kelp and I don't want them eating kelp when they need the minerals or the salt. 

Sooo, I do it this way....and the animals like it... and they are healthy. Vicki- I don't know if you are talking in general or talking to me, but I'm not mixing anything in my minerals, therefore they get what they need. No waste happens and they don't eat an excess of them either. I'd be concerned if my goats were standing at a minerals feeder eating away at the minerals if they just need something so basic as salt. 

So what's your definition of fluff, anyway. I'm not trying to be rude. I'm just curious. Is fluff just a waste of time in your mind? I have no trouble with plain spoken people (I am one myself) but I hope you have more reason to criticize me than just thinking that what I do is a "waste of time." 

Sara, I do give my goats credit for being able to choose what they need at least in a rudimentary way.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Jo I was talking in basic terms.

Livestock go to minerals for their salt content, which recently has been scewed with the addition of molassas.

If you don't basically believe that, and think goats know they are low in iodine so they will eat kelp today, know they need some copper so eat their mineral tommorrow and the next day need to buffer their rumen so they go to the yeast or baking soda...than there is no common ground for discussion about this. 

It is simply unfounded, expensive and any form of salt that takes your goats away from eating their minerals that contain the copper they need is to their detriment.

The not mixing of salt into your minerals is dangerous, although I highly doubt it is only minerals and vitamins because they are soo nasty bitter goats wouldn't eat them. I would bet there is some sort of carrier to keep them coming to it....sorry could you post the list of ingredients again?

My minerals have salt and kelp in them, when they didn't I simply mixed kelp into my minerals. I don't feed molassased feeds so baking soda has never been a consideration. When I did feed the dairy Diamond V Yeast it was prove you could get more milk with the feeding of yeast and Baking soda...now with yeast in our minerals, I just keep out good grass hay which has natural bicarb in it. 

Fluff I would guess for me is the waste of money factor, but is obviously in the eye of the beholder. Vicki


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

(Sorry this is so long. This is the info she sent me a few years ago when I first contacted her. She may have changed some things by now. I don't know.)

MAXI-MIN CAPRINE MINERAL

FOR GOAT OWNERS WHO DEMAND THE BEST.
AT LAST, THERE IS A MINERAL SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR YOUR
HARD-WORKING DAIRY GOATS. (YES, IT WILL WORK GREAT FOR MEAT GOATS,
TOO. AFTER ALL, THOSE DOES NEED THE BEST NUTRITION PROVIDING FOR
THEIR FAST- GROWING KIDS!)

MARY KELLOGG HAS 36 YEARS OF DAIRY GOAT KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE. NOW,
WITH THE EXPERT ASSISTANCE OF DR. STEVE HART OF LANGSTON
UNIVERSITY,AND OTHERS, A MINERAL HAS BEEN FORMULATED TO PROVIDE
OPTIMAL NUTRITIONAL SUPPORT. MARY KELLOGG AND THE MINRULAX COMPANY
DEVELOPED THE VERY FIRST MINERAL (that we are aware of) MADE
ESPECIALLY FOR DAIRY GOATS IN THE US OVER 30 YEARS AGO!
IF YOU ARE FEEDING A MULTI-SPECIES MINERAL, YOUR GOATS ARE BEING
ROBBED OF SOME CRITICAL MINERALS. IF YOUR GOATS ARE BEING ROBBED
NUTRITIONALLY, SO ARE YOU! NONE OF THE MINERALS I FOUND ON THE MARKET
ADDRESS THE ADDITIONAL COBALT NEEDS OF THE DAIRY GOAT, ESPECIALLY
TOGGENBURGS AND LA MANCHAS.

MOST MINERAL MIXES ON THE MARKET ARE DEFICIENT IN MANY ESSENTIAL
MINERALS, AND IN VITAMINS. SO FAR, I HAVE NOT FOUND ONE, WHICH
CONTAINS OPTIMAL LEVELS OF VITAMINS A, D, E, THE B COMPLEX, AND
COBALT. ALL OF THESE RELATIONSHIPS ARE SYNERGISTIC----IT IS VERY
IMPORTANT THAT EVERYTHING IS BALANCED.

ALSO, THE CALCIUM PHOSPHORUS RATIOS ARE WRONG. THE IDEAL IS 1.2:1,
not 2:1. WHY ARE THEY ALL USING THE 2:1 RATIO? BECAUSE PHOSPHORUS IS
EXPENSIVE, THAT'S WHY! NOT because that is the correct ratio.
Milkers may need more calcium----OR more phosphorus------it depends on
their diet.

This mineral is made with the BEST ingredients we currently have
available, NOT the cheapest! It is not perfect, because there is
just too much that is still unknown, but we are working on it, with
the assistance of our "girls" and the other breeders who are
generously providing feed-back!

ONE MINERAL CANNOT POSSIBLY PROVIDE ADEQUATE MINERAL LEVELS FOR
SEVERAL SPECIES OF ANIMAL! JUST THINK ABOUT IT, AND DO SOME RESEARCH.

Without cobalt, Vitamins C, K, and the Bs cannot be synthesized.
Without adequate cobalt, copper cannot be utilized. (This is why many
have found that the copper boluses did not work well, or at all!)
These are just a FEW of the relationships that are integral to how the
body works. (Yep, ours too!) Our best source of cobalt is MILK! The
girls cannot give it to us if they are not getting it!

There is also a relationship between cobalt, copper, and selenium.

When doing research, I found a definite link confirmed in studies
between copper deficiency and aneurysms. This probably explains why I
lost a 2 year old and a 4 year old in 2005 to aneurysms. One friend
lost 2 young (2 years old) bucks during breeding season, and another
friend lost a yearling doe. These animals all appeared to be in good
shape physically, but all were showing signs of copper deficiency.
(Bald spot on tails, "rusty" black, white hairs in Toggs, etc.)

PLEASE do NOT give this mineral to animals that have had copper
boluses for at least 4 months after administering the bolus. We do not
know if it would be safe, or create toxic levels of copper. There has
been very little research on the boluses, and almost none with goats
(sheep research was done). Copper poisoning causes "sudden death".
You cannot see into their liver!

DO NOT USE BO-SE OR MU-SE AFTER FEEDING THIS MINERAL------IT MAY NOT
BE SAFE. You could cause selenium poisoning.
PLEASE LET US KNOW ABOUT CONSUMPTION RATES AND PALATABILITY. THIS IS
A "WORK IN PROGRESS" AND WE MAY ADJUST THE FORMULA SOMEWHAT AS TIME
PASSES.

IF YOUR GOATS "DEVOUR" THE MINERAL WHEN YOU BEGIN TO FEED IT, THEN YOU
KNOW THAT THEY WERE CERTAINLY VERY DEFICIENT IN ESSENTIALS! (Mother
Nature seems to have equipped her creatures within an innate knowledge
of what they need for health.) If they do this, we suggest adding one
part of fine, NON-IODIZED salt to 4 or 5 parts mineral for the first
month or so. Salt can easily be found at a feed store. Some goats
have been very suspicious of this "new" feed for a while--- others
have no hesitation. If they are hesitant, I have found that "eating"
the mineral myself, with appropriate chomping and lip-smacking noises,
often works!

WE ARE CONTINUING TO RESEARCH THE BEST BIOAVAILABLE FORMS OF MINERALS
AND VITAMINS. THERE WILL ALSO BE HERBALS AND CHELATES IN A PLUS
FORMULA WE ARE WORKING ON FOR THE FUTURE TO ENHANCE YOUR GOATS
HEALTH---AND YOURS! This is as natural as we can make it. Mineral oil
is allowed in organics if there is not a workable substitute! Though
it appears everything is about to change---again----courtesy of the
Feds! We cannot use organic oils like coconut, palm, or soy, due to
rancidity problems and possible changes in consumption rates.Though I
have considered it, the trials did not work out! If no oil were used,
there would be a serious problem with the dispersion rates of the
heavier and lighter minerals, which would settle out, or rise, during
transport. There would also be dust, which could cause lung problems.
Changes in dispersion could cause very serious toxicity or deficiency
problems with the minerals like cobalt, selenium, and copper.

THERE WILL BE NO SALT OR FILLER ADDED TO OUR MINERAL. IF YOU NEED TO
(OR CHOOSE TO) ADD SALT TO LIMIT CONSUMPTION IN SELF-FEEDERS, YOU CAN
DO THAT VERY CHEAPLY BY ADDING IT YOURSELF! SALT LEVELS IN 3 OF THE
MOST POPULAR MINERALS ARE FROM 18.2% - 45% (RESEARCH IT YOURSELF
ON-LINE).-----SHIPPED TO YOU AS PART OF YOUR MINERAL. If you figure
out the actual cost of the other minerals without the salt, you will
be shocked. (I certainly was!)

YOU WILL GET MORE FOR YOUR MONEY WITH OUR MINERAL. (Bear in mind
that the salt level affects the amount of mineral your goat is
getting---400 ppm of something contained within mineral that is 45%
salt means your animal gets just over HALF that amount! (If of
course, they are willing to eat that much salt! Most goats are smart
enough not to eat that much salt. Although years ago, I actually had a
goat get "salt poisoning" trying to get enough cobalt. It was touch
and go for four days, but she made it. How would you like a tablespoon
of salt with your vitamin pill?)

I BOUGHT ONE "MINERAL" SUPPLEMENT THAT WAS MORE THAN 75% FILLER!
---SALT, SOYBEAN MEAL, AND WHEAT HULLS MEANT THAT THE DOES HAD TO EAT
AT LEAST 6-8 OZ. PER DAY TO GET EVEN A PART OF THE REQUIRED MINERALS!
At $ 27.00 per bag, I was paying $20.25 for less than 13 lb. of
actual mineral! That means that 50 lb. of mineral cost more than
$81.00! What made it worse is that copper levels were totally
inadequate, as were several other essentials, like manganese and cobalt!

YOU NEED TO REALLY READ THE LABEL! If you cannot figure out what it
all means, ask your local animal extension specialist or a
nutritionist for help. Just be cautious, as most will use cow or sheep
requirements--and often, the chart they use is over 30 years old! To
make it worse, the "goat" mineral information was NOT from goat
research, but was extrapolated from sheep studies! I suggest looking
at the research papers Langston University has done--under the Kika de
Garza Goat Institute online.

SALT COSTS JUST OVER $3.00 FOR 50 LBS. Wouldn't you rather just add
it yourself? We feed both the salt and mineral free choice, so the
does can eat what they need. DO NOT USE IODIZED SALT---TOO MUCH IODINE
WILL TIE UP ESSENTIALS! EXCESS KELP HAS THE SAME EFFECT.

MANGANESE DEFICIENCY IS A RECENTLY DISCOVERED SERIOUS PROBLEM IN PARTS
OF OKLAHOMA AND KANSAS (and I suspect in many other places as well!).
DEFICIENCY CAUSES LOWER CONCEPTION RATES, LOWER MILK PRODUCTION,
PROBLEMS WITH WEIGHT MAINTENANCE, POST- KIDDING INFECTIONS, AND
DEFORMATION OF FRONT LEGS AND/OR JOINTS IN NEWBORNS, NEURO-CEREBRAL
CONNECTION DEFICIENCIES, AND A HOST OF OTHER PROBLEMS. THIS MINERAL
ESPECIALLY ADDRESSES THAT PROBLEM.

WE ANTICIPATE THAT CONSUMPTION WILL BE ABOUT 1-1/2 OZ PER ANIMAL PER
DAY---THIS IS AN AVERAGE FIGURED FOR 135 POUNDS. SMALL MILKING DOES
ARE EXPECTED TO CONSUME ABOUT 1-1/2 to 2 OZ. PER DAY, AND KIDS FROM
1/4-1/2 OZ PER DAY. Of course, this depends upon size, milk
production, and feeding practices. 1-1/2 oz. is about 2 Tablespoons.
The cost per doe is in the 6 cents to 14 cents per day range,
depending upon where you live, and the shipping charges. A pound of
mineral will provide for a small doe for about 8-10 days----AFTER they
get "caught up" on mineral levels.

THERE IS NO ADDED SALT IN THIS MINERAL---YOUR GOATS MUST HAVE
SALT---though they only need it at the level of 1%!This mineral
contains the finest grade of yeast. This provides optimum levels of
those all-important B-complex vitamins that are so important for health.

Although it is designed for goats on alfalfa hay and pasture-- or
alfalfa, pasture, and prairie hay, MaxiMin seems to be working fine
for all types of feeding practices! If you are feeding straight
alfalfa (which is NOT good for your goats, as they need the long
fibers of grass hay), you need to offer a hi-phos dairy mineral to be
certain they can balance their intakes properly.

I also provide my does with a sulfur salt block, baking soda, and a
dairy cow high-calcium mineral so they have a "buffet". I also offer
a mol-mag block (also called bloat block or grass tetany block,
depending upon where you live) for the does, as they need more
magnesium (wish I knew why!) in the fall and winter. I learned this
from a friend of David McKenzie years ago. I called England for
information, as I knew they needed something that was not being
provided. I could not figure out why my goats DEVOURED certain
plants and barks at certain times of the year. (You can learn a lot by
reading the plant analyses in the back of Goat Husbandry!) I learned
that magnesium was what they needed, usually starting in October!
Magnesium deficiency often causes "bowed" front legs. I have seen this
many times in foals, and in yearling goats that are pregnant.
Providing magnesium can alleviate it. It is normally not permanent if
caught early enough.

Current mineral levels:
Calcium 10%
Phosphorus 8%
Potassium 2%
Magnesium 1%
Sulfur 2%
Iron 2000 ppm
Manganese 5000 ppm
Zinc 8000 ppm
Copper 1250 ppm
Selenium 25 ppm
Cobalt 200 ppm
Iodine 100 ppm

Vit. A 250,000 IU
Vit. D 50,000 IU
Vit. E 400 IU

These calculations were made based on 5-1/2 lb. dry matter consumption
for my own does. I feed some alfalfa, but mostly grass hay, and one
pound of grain. If you feed straight alfalfa, you may need to offer
more hi-phos to keep things balanced. Consumption may vary. Most goats
need more in the beginning, and then level off in consumption. It is
normal if the consumption goes up and down, sometimes quite
dramatically, and usually goes up in fall and winter. Again, I wish I
knew why! Of course, if there is mineral in your grain mix, that also
affects consumption rates!

CALL OR EMAIL FOR MORE INFORMATION. 580-694-2372. PHONE PROBLEMS ARE
ONGOING, IF YOU DO NOT GET A PERSON (ME!), OR THE MACHINE, THE PHONE
IS NOT WORKING!

We ship a 70-pound order via Parcel Post for $43 plus shipping, which
is from $18.78 to $49.51, depending on your postal zone. (That weight
includes the packaging, so is about 67 pounds + mineral.) 
You can check the shipping charges yourself at usps.com, or send me
your zip code, and I will calculate it for you. Zones 1 and 2 are
$18.78; Zone 3: $23.08, Zone 4: $35.38, and Zone 5 is $39.54-these are
shipping costs for the large orders.

For those of you in the farthest zones, shipping is cheaper in the
Priority boxes----a 60 or 80 pound order shipped via the 20 pound
boxes via Priority Mail saves up to $11, and is MUCH faster if you are
in postal Zones 6,7, or 8! The cost for multiples will be $86.00 for
4 boxes or $68.00 for 60 pounds. $70.34 or $88.88 if you use Paypal.
The USPS provides the boxes, and you get them in just 2- 4 days!
(Boxes for shipping are 98 cents on large orders, but shipping for
each box to get them to me is $2.18. Things are rather strange,
nowadays, aren't they?)

The small order (Box) is $26, including Priority Mail--this is about
19-20 pounds of mineral. It is so strange that shipping this size
priority mail is MUCH cheaper than parcel post. Parcel Post to Zone 8
for example, is over $30 for 20 pounds, and $49.51 for 70 pounds.
Including the Paypal charge, and Priority shipping, one box is $27.08.
We accept payment via Paypal, but there is an additional charge of 3%
+ 30 cents--that is what they charge us. Please send Paypal to:
[email protected]. Though I have all my emails registered,
it does not like the others, for some reason! Money orders are
fine, and unless out of stock, we ship the next day. (Unfortunately,
since we have had problems with checks, we cannot ship product until
your check clears the bank, which can delay your order shipment up to
3 weeks.) Please, if you send an order, and do not receive an
acknowledgement, kindly email again, or call, as we have had emails
lost many times.

Sorry, but we can only accept credit cards through Paypal!

Please understand that we do NOT control the delivery time, the USPS
does, and although they say it takes 5-10 days for parcel post, one
order to Iowa took 17 days. An order going to Oregon was there in 5,
so there is no way to know delivery time. Please let us know when your
order arrives.

We really do appreciate feedback on your goats' improvement in condition!

Mary Kellogg RR1-- Box 66, Manchester, Ok. 73758 Phone 580-694-2372.
If we do not answer or the machine, the phone is NOT working.
Please try again!

EMAIL: [email protected], [email protected] , or
[email protected]. I suggest sending any message to two of
these---the Spam filters seem to be removing more and more legitimate
messages---at least, they seem to disappear somewhere in cyberspace!

Please put mineral or goats in the subject line

I have had two major computer crashes from viruses, trojans, etc. so I
DO NOT open emails without something I recognize in the subject line!
The last crash destroyed my computer, so I just do not risk the new one!

*****************************************************************************************************************************************************************
FOR EVERY BAG OF MINERAL SOLD, A DONATION WILL BE MADE FOR GOAT
MINERAL RESEARCH AT LANGSTON UNIVERSITY. HELP US HELP YOUR GOATS!

*****************************************************************************************************************************************************************
COPYRIGHT 2005 Mary Kellogg


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I also provide my does with a sulfur salt block, baking soda, and a
dairy cow high-calcium mineral so they have a "buffet". I also offer
a mol-mag block (also called bloat block or grass tetany block,
depending upon where you live) for the does, as they need more
magnesium (wish I knew why!) in the fall and winter.
............................

If this mineral is the end all of end alls, than why does she feed all this? And if you believe all she wrote, than why do you not feed all of the above with this mineral also?

Well since none of my goats have never died of salt poisioning, or an anuerism, and I don't know anyone that copper bolusing doesn't work for...if they even need to do it once on a better feeding program....isn't my advice in the long run better?
..............................................

YOU WILL GET MORE FOR YOUR MONEY WITH OUR MINERAL. (Bear in mind
that the salt level affects the amount of mineral your goat is
getting---400 ppm of something contained within mineral that is 45%
salt means your animal gets just over HALF that amount!
.............................................. 

Do you believe this statement?

Any hard facts? Like a copper liver study in the does who died of anurysums? A blood test to see if this mineral does in fact raise the selenium level enough that bo-se would be dangerous?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I could not figure out why my goats DEVOURED certain
plants and barks at certain times of the year. (You can learn a lot by
...................................

And from this you can take the leap from choosing trees, and weeds and grasses to chooseing man made minerals? Do you really think your goats know the difference between potassium and calcium in a mineral form? Vicki


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, she doesn't say that there is something in it that makes to goats like it but it smells yummy, so I guess it could. I will have to ask. Anyway, the goats seem to like to eat them. I don't have problems with mine not wanting to eat the minerals. 
I like the fact that they don't have salt in them so I feel like they get what they need from them without consuming an excess of other ingredients. Maybe my goats need a little less salt than yours? I'm not in the hot and humid south. 

As I said, I do think goats know when they need something. Whether or not they can learn that they need minerals over salt or kelp is open for debate. If their instinct cannot tell them if they do need salt or if they do need copper or whatever, than pica, geophogia, or other minerals associated behavior problems are all false too. I don't think they can put a name to their desire, but I think they can learn to recognize that they need "something" or that they feel better after they eat "supplement X." Does that sound crazy?

When you are getting sick, have you ever taken any vit c and felt better? I think it's the same kind of thing. I do know some goat keepers who put out individual minerals for their goats. They say that the goats are able to relegate what they take and balance their minerals needs themselves. Now I cant verify how true that is, but if it is true- I think it's pretty cool. 

Maybe we get by with not having problems from the way we feed the minerals because we don't put out a lot. I weigh ours out and they get enough for two days at one go, which is just a couple of cups at a time. Perhaps that protects them from overdosing? 

Many goat keepers offer other supplements or use other supplements on their animals at certain times when they think they need it. You ought to know that different regions have different soils, different soils grow hays and grain with different minerals compositions, ect...so if she has to offer extra magnesium or sulfur at different times of the year than hooray for her for figuring it out. Sometimes people do this whether or not they use her minerals, or yours, or hoeggers or purina or one of their own. My own vet says he offers extra vit e pre kidding for his sheep, and says it cuts down on his mastitis in his herd. Good for him, I say. Good for anyone who figures out what their herd needs. 


I don't know if she has done any copper biopsies. I'm not the one to ask if you feel you need hard data about this mineral mix. I think it has two points in it's favor though. It doesn't have salt in it, and it doesn't have oxides in it that bind copper.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Can I ask what you have against salt in a livestocks diet? I don't get how her mineral is better because it doesn't contain salt.

And it has to be scarry to you for you to be doleing out minerals like you are.

The first free choice mineral ever made without salt to limit intake, although other major manufacturers make better minerals, with better ingredients, that don't contain salt for ease of freight charges, with huge warnings and explicit directions on how to add your own salt...yet you choose to feed a salt free mineral and give salt in another feeder? Why not mix the two together? I just don't get it.

And can you really read her sales pitch you posted above and not take pause? Have you seen her goats and admire them? Well i guess that point is moot because she only feeds her own minerals as a small sampling, and she even adds more of the same minerals that are in this mineral mix. Sorry but if I was going to go to the trouble of making a mineral mix, it would first and foremost meet the needs of my herd, it's why i use the mineral I do, it meets the need of my goats. I also wouldn't put something on the market without hard eveidence. Just as many goats can die from not getting their copper bolus's or selenium injections when they need it, as the minute` amount that would die from overdose. 

So Ellie, sorry yet that you asked  

Vicki


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

When did I say salt was bad? When did I say her minerals was better? 


Why do you think in such absolute terms? 

How long did it take you to develop your mineral? Can't you give her the same amount of time to develop her own product? Or must every product rise up out of the sea whole and complete and perfect? I'm sorry that I don't know every single little detail that she has gone through to develop her mineral mix, nor what tests she has used, ect, ect ect....I suggest again that if you want that info, go ask her for it. She's a nice lady to talk to. 

Her sales pitch is her sales pitch. Personally, I don't care very much what people say to sell a product. Everyone has their own sales pitch that makes their product seem appealing to the consumer. What I look at is what is actually in the product and what is made out of and how it fits in with our needs. If I were to judge your minerals I would look at the ingredients and think if I wanted to feed them to my animals. Though I would like hearing from those people who have used your minerals; I would still consider the ingredients and how they would fit in with our goals. 


By the way, I have mixed the minerals with salt before, all that happens is that they eat them more slowly with less enjoyment. They don't seem to like all that salt. So why should I force them to eat it? Frankly I don't see how there is much of a difference if the goats eat the minerals all at once or if they eat them slowly throughout the day. 

I have no trouble with discussing things politely with you if you are willing to do the same. But I am not willing to sit here and be slandered, or to listen to slander against Mary Kellog who isn't here to share her reasons or information. So I'm not going to talk about her behind her back. 


Forgive me if I have misread what you wrote. Perhaps I am imagining all the sarcasm?


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I have no trouble with discussing things politely with you if you are willing to do the same. But I am not willing to sit here and be slandered, or to listen to slander against Mary Kellog who isn't here to share her reasons or information. So I'm not going to talk about her behind her back.
> 
> Forgive me if I have misread what you wrote. Perhaps I am imagining all the sarcasm?


Jo,

This is the second time in which I have had to babysit you. Yes, you ARE imagining the sarcasm and I can't for the life of me understand why you are getting so defensive.

If you are going to recommend a product you should have the information to back it up. Rather than do that, you dodge questions and get defensive.

I have had goats for a long time and I'm sorry, the mineral you speak of is ridiculous. There, no sarcasm... just straight to the point.

Sara


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

What information do I need to recommend a product besides the fact that_ I_ like it?

Do you think honestly think I need scientific studies in order to say that_ I _like something? Isn't that supposed to be covered under the realm of a persons opinion?

When I joined, (on Vicki's invitation) it wasn't made clear to me that I was going to have to qualify and sanitize every thing I wright for you. So how do you want me to say anything? Should I make a statement and then give reasons why I like it, or think it's a good idea or whatever? Or should I just shut up and never offer anything?

I'm sorry I took the time to answer Ellie's question. I should have pm'd her.

I'm a plain spoken person too and I wrote that honestly. I _don't _know if Vicki is sarcastic towards me or not. I guess I could be imagining it. I find it difficult to understand her and unlike you I don't know her and haven't been on this forum for years.

So what am I supposed to do? Most of what I believe about raising my goats is contrary to what you believe and do. We may have some things in common and I would rather focus on that than on our differences.

Well, I said I wasn't going to talk about copper anymore and I'm not. Now I'm not going to talk about minerals either.

It's pretty plain that you don't want "discussion." though. That's really too bad. My husband thinks I'm crazy to sit here and try and talk with you all.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I think the point that needs to be made here rather than a back and forth bashing is that there are NEW PEOPLE on here or even guests that never before owned a goat. We don't as a group want to specify or condone that putting out separated dishes of what ever that the GOATS are smarter than we are and will pick and chose threw to get what their body needs. One thing for sure we know they need is salt and this is just a simple explanation of the whole problem here. So for the newbie on the forum they need to know that they need a balanced mineral which also contains salt. 
Being offended by someone on this list is childish.
Vicki is not necessarily pointing a finger at you personally she is pointing a finger at the brand of minerals. Even if cutting costs in shipping by not adding the salt is a plus the maker also recommends adding salt. SO yes Vicki is questioning why you chose to use a separated dish. Now I suggest if you have a problem with this then listen to your husband. 
Here on this forum we recommend a complete mineral that even a beginner can use in the most sensible way.


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## Bilrite Farms (Oct 26, 2007)

I stay out most discussions on the forum since there are many on there that know so much more than I can share but I have been sitting on my hands here and now for better or worse guys....

I think the main problem here may have been not taking the discussion privately. Ellie asked if anyone was using this Maxi-Min mineral and then also asked for _anecdotal_ experiences. At that point it may have been best to change over to PM.

I think everyone has a lot to share and different points of view make for a well rounded discussion but perhaps it is time to agree to disagree and let the topic rest for a while? 
Trisha


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

Perhaps this could have been taken privately. However, it wasn't.

Sorry but I cannot, in good faith, let new people fall into the 'internet trap' of what maybe works for one person works for the rest of us. The fact is, the mineral in question can be DANGEROUS as it is not mixed with salt. Not to mention, we cannot expect our goats to have the intelligence to choose what they need.

I want _proven_ methods, feeding programs, mineral supplements, etc. I'll take an opinion on clippers or milk pails but when it comes to the health of my herd I want something that has been proven to work and has been recommended by a breeder in whom I trust with a herd I admire.

Sara


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

To be honest....I am one of those newbies, and this thread made me have to do some research on what I was doing to make sure that I was somewhere around the middle of the road on all this stuff. .....But, I'm somebody who is very careful about chasing out after things that aren't backed up with hard facts.....The problem that I see here, is that everybody ain't like me (and most are glad of that ), and there will be some folks who chase an airplane if it flew over low enough. 
Jo....it's not at all that I don't appreciate your input or your management style....I often find it very interesting to see what other folks are trying and what is working or not working for them.
But I do appreciate the folks on here that try to keep some of us newbies in the middle of the road with our practices, and then let us tweak our own program as time and knowledge allows us to. I gain a lot of knowledge from a lot of people on here all the time, and I so appreciate the time and experience that some of you folks have in the goat business.......
So I'm not viewing everything that is said on a forum such as this to be either right or wrong....but would tell anyone that is getting started out to do their research, use proven methods and medicines until you learn enough to strike out on your own with somewhat experimental practices.
I get an opinion from at least 3 different reliable sources before I do anything that I call tweaking a bit........I got a newbie started in ND's this week, and she has no mentor but me....well, that's not good enough for me, so I've hooked them up with 3 people whom I know she can rely on for good management practices......I've also told this newbie that she would develop her own style of management in time that would meet the needs of her breed, her goals, and her regional challenges. 
I hope as I give advice in the future, that I can do the same for others as well or at least be able to back it up with some sound test results.

I ain't throwing my dog in this race, but BIG OLE OPINIONS can be worth something sometimes. So this is mine.

:crazy Whim.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I think it has two points in it's favor though. It doesn't have salt in it, and it doesn't have oxides in it that bind copper. 
.....................

Jo this is what you wrote.

I also didn't say a peep in the answering of Ellie's question until Tamera reading your answer wanted to know where she could buy it. Sorry but my opinon is my opinion.

I don't know why you read such venom into my posts all the time. 

And I don't think we have to take discussion privately. I don't want this forum to have onesided information, which if I would simply have emailed Ellie, and told her my problems with this mineral for her research it would have left the thread with only your views of this mineral Jo. I would have a problem with that.

None of us do anything exactly the same on here, just look at the iodine thread...doesn't mean one is better than the other as long as the cord and feet get saturated.

And because I disagree with Mary's mineral does not mean I hate her, no more than I hate fiascofarms.com shoot I send all my customers who want to dam raise to that site, her drug site and some of her info is simply wrong. Hoegerrs herbal wormer info is nonsense, doesn't mean I wouldn't buy another milk pail from them. It isn't all this personal stuff that you think it is. It's goats. Vicki


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, thanks Vicki. I'm glad you responded. I'm sorry if what I wrote seemed as if it was going to mislead newbies. I honestly didn't think of that when I wrote it. I would not want to do that. I'm surprised that no one else on this list has tried them yet, though. Everyone that I hear from who has tried them have been happy with them. I would be happy to hear from some folks who have tried them and _didn't_ like them. (just because I'm curious.) I haven't come across any yet though.

Yes, I see how someone could misread what I wrote. What I should have added was this: it doesn't have salt in it already so I can add my own sea salt in it. Which I -at least- put out for them now. Back when we first started this mineral, we mixed the sea salt in, and the goats didn't like it. So they weren't eating close to an ounce a day (which is about what my mini's need.) So I offered it to them plain and they like it that way. I don't know why; they are goats. Anyway, they will eat it plain. 

Now Mary's info says that it "can be" done that way. She (and I) doesn't say it's the best way to feed minerals. I would be nervous if my goats had access to pounds of these minerals and they sat there and ate them and ate them and ate them.

So I don't have a feeder that can hold a huge amount so I just bring out what they need for two days. It cuts down on spoilage and waste and there is no chance of them eating too much either. Are goats supposed to be eating minerals all day long? I have always thought if they were doing that it was a sign of some kind of deficiency problem.

I didn't assume Tamara was going to buy the mineral. I often ask about something just so I can read about it or understand why someone is using it.

So if I write something that does not agree with what you say, do I come across as sounding offensive? I've been trying hard not to sound mean while still maintaining my integrity of my own ideas.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

So if I write something that does not agree with what you say, do I come across as sounding offensive?
..................

Heavens are you reading posts here. Kaye, Tim, Sara, KEN...do you think they agree with everything I say? But yes, you do sound offended when I state my opinon about something you don't agree with. And now if you want to keep talking minerals fine, but any more in this vein can go OT or private. Vicki


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