# Aggressive doe...keep or move on



## D Bar J Acres (Nov 5, 2007)

I have a 5 y.o. mini mancha doe (82% LM, so quite large). I got her in early October. As soon as in with the herd (10 others, ND and MM) she was immediately herd queen. She is a VERY aggressive queen. She nails my mini aussie any chance she gets when he's out helping do chores (he has no herding instincts, doesn't bother the goats, but runs around like a goon), she's now gone to ramming our Bernese Mtn Dog (who's got the temperment of a kitten, and wouldn't hurt a fly, think...big and dumb). She will hit another doe hard, hit my smallest going to be FF ND extremely hard yesterday, and during feeding has to be tied up as she bites and grabs any other doe she can.

Only problem, she's got very nice conformation to work with and I love her personality towards people. She's actually let me take the herd on walks to the woods and fields, something I've never been able to do. Altho I'm thinking the other girls know the routine and may go on their own now.

Would you keep her and risk her breaking or aborting someone, or get her out to a bigger herd (she came from a 80 head herd), or another herd with bigger goats at least. I will keep her till she kids mid March as I really want her kids.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Well I can tell you - I sold mine! She did great in another herd, but mine breathed a sigh of relief when she left! She caused several abortions here before I got rid of her....and she wore a ram shield until I sold her.

So no - I wouldn't keep her! Just my opinion


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## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Get a doeling from her and move her on!


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## D Bar J Acres (Nov 5, 2007)

Darn, was thinking that may be the best. Everyone else will be so happy tho. Except for the dog ramming, I think it's food related. She was thin when I got her and just really acts out around food. In the pasture she's fine, standing in the calf huts between the water tank and the barn she's fine, it's just around the hay and grain, which is where more damage is to happen from stories I've heard. Hopefully she give me a nice doeling.


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

I wouldn't have her around after she kids. My kids still talk about the "mean goats" even though I've gotten rid of them (and they weren't even terribly mean) and all of the remaining goats are extremely sweet.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I bet you she was very low ranked in her original herd. My herd is a bit 'all over the place' in age, breeds and size' and in my experience when you move a lowly goat that gets beaten up to another pen to protect her, and in that pen she's the larger/stronger doe, then instead of being happy and taking break that doe almost always turns around and becomes a big bully herself.

I've had that so many times! The latest one was a very, very small milking yearling that was brought here last May. She had no ranking in the milking group and was a bit on the skinny side when I dried her up at the end of her lactation, so I put her separate in a pen with two young, shy does. Figured she could use some rest and the young does were getting grain, while the 'just dry' group didn't. Instead of enjoying the pampering, she spent all her time scaring the young does senseless and beating them up! 

Ugghh, they are so much like....like.....HUMANS!!!!

Marion


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

I just read the post where it says the kids are still talking about the mean does. Funny, I have one doe, Coffee, who just headbutts every goat that comes close to her. It isn't a problem, believe me, because every doe I have has learned to stay clear of Coffee. She's 5 now and there's always open space around Coffee, but never a fight, she's just a loner, I guess. Anyway, my boys are true 'cow men' and think the goats are merely an item to keep their Mom sane, rather than a respectable business. So my younger son told me a while back: 'the only goat I like is Coffee'. I asked him why in the world he would like that goat and he says: 'because she hates goats, just like me!'
Marion


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## smithurmonds (Jan 20, 2011)

I sold an over-the-top mean doe like that. Like Christine said, what a relief when she was gone. After that experience, my opinion is that it's just not worth the stress.


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## nlhayesp (Apr 19, 2012)

I agree with moving her on. It isn't worth the physical damage she can do to the others. A goat that butts the others away from her is a loner. But a goat that is agressive in seeking and destroying will always be a danger to the others. Get rid of her asap.


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## hmcintosh (Jan 8, 2013)

I sold a very mouthy bullying alpine goat that I had. My herd is so much more peaceful now. I think you will be glad you did.


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## Qadosh Adamah Lamanchas (Nov 2, 2012)

I agree with Marion. "Bottom totem pole" goats are opportunists when moved to another herd. The biting that your doe is doing and the fact that she's great with people but bad with herdmates is simply (unfortunately) a primarily LM characteristic. LM's are famous for ear-biting other goats. It's so forgiveable for must of us, though, because they are such dolls with people. However, the risk of abortion would make me want to keep a doeling then move her on. She needs to be in a herd of standard sized goats, at least, so that she can be taken down a few notches. Maybe she's just not a good fit for your herd.


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

You might keep this doe if you can keep her by herself. That way you can get the genetics that you want from her. Otherwise, she needs to be re-homed.


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## quiltstuff (Sep 27, 2012)

Sounds like she would be a nice fit (with one of her kids to keep her company) for a family that just wanted a milk goat, not a whole herd.


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## dragonlair (Mar 24, 2009)

I am having the same issue with my LM doe. She is queen and beats on the others. She is a bully first class. And like yours, she has the best conformation AND milk production and is a sweetie to me! I am hoping for a daughter from her this year and then sell her to a new herd. Or I might just make a smaller pen and leave her with the daughter, since she was great with her own daughters that I ended up having to sell.


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## informative (Aug 24, 2012)

I would raise her offspring with limited contact with mama - then once you have the harvested the genes you want, sell her or there are always a bunch of good goat recipes to consider too. Either way turns a negative into a positive.


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## Horsehair Braider (Mar 11, 2011)

I think it matters how many goats you have and how much work you have to do. If you only have two goats, a mean one like that might be worth keeping, or if she lives alone as someone's pet that's a great situation for her. 

I don't keep any goats that cause me extra work or trouble, because I have too much stuff to do to be messing around with them all the time. If I just had one pet goat that would be fine, but I've got more than that and they are not pets. I've learned to move the trouble makers and problem causers somewhere else - as Ray says, either down the road or in the freezer. I haven't got the time to mess with them.

This is to say, unless your pens are set up so that you *could* keep her separate very easily, personally, I'd just try and find another goat. And who knows, at someone else's place she may be a complete angel. I've had lots of animals that were problematic at their original place, and then due to my management, the social group they are in or whatever, are totally fine at my place.


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

Personally it is never worth the stress to either me or the other goats.  Get a keeper doeling from her and move her on.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

I would separate her from the herd until she kids so she can't cause injuries or abortions.

Sell her as a doe in milk after she kids. With Saanens, we don't have these problems, but we did have a mean Boer doe that I had to separate out...she was great for training the younger Great Pyrenees their manners. Never could sell her as people always wanted to know why this great goat was so much less than the other ones for sale. I would tell them "because her name is Mean-a Athena". She ended up in the freezer. Got great kids from her and they were not mean.


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I've got one like this, an Alpine. When I got her she was at the bottom of the pecking order, but she has risen to the top. And she is ruthless. My new Saanens are so sweet and docile, but she will take a swing at them if she can. Her favorite thing to do is stand at the entrance to the barn and "guard" it so no one else can come in to be milked. I usually have to go out there and shoo her outside. If it is raining out, I pen her up so the others can come in, otherwise she will make the meek ones stand in the rain. 

I would have sold her as a bred doe already, but she is AI bred to a really nice buck and I would love to have a doe kid from her, she had twin bucks last year so hopefully this year is a doe year for her.

I can say she knows her name and if I get after her she will stop what she is doing, all I have to do is say "Texanna!". You can always tell when she has a guilty conscience too, if I walk past her and she is thinking bad thoughts she will jump away, if she isn't she will just stand there and look at me.

I have another one who used to be mean, she has calmed down, but she also knew her name. One time she was getting ready to slam a doe, she didn't know I was standing in the doorway and I said "Tornado!" and she spun her head around and stopped so fast she left skid marks about 18 inches long!


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## Twillingate Farm (Oct 26, 2007)

Every herd must have that "Queen" dominator! My "queen" discovered that she was a commoner when we put our buck in the herd. He was 100% in-charge without ever having to prove it through violence. I swear he'd just look at her with that look and she'd sheepishly skulk off to avoid confrontation. Peace reigned in the goatdom for two years until we sold (gave) our buck back to the original owners and suddenly the "Queen" took up her scepter again.
Our new buck came from our herd and doesn't have quite the authority his predecessor had but he does manage to intercede on behalf of the young ladies he grew up with. The situation is tolerable for the time being. We're adding another buckling to the mix in a few months... a Boer from another herd. Perhaps he'll reign her in.


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## lonestrchic23 (Jan 7, 2011)

Tracy in Idaho said:


> Well I can tell you - I sold mine! She did great in another herd, but mine breathed a sigh of relief when she left! She caused several abortions here before I got rid of her....and she wore a ram shield until I sold her.
> 
> So no - I wouldn't keep her! Just my opinion


LOL, poor Ginger, such a notorious doe!! 

She's in my herd now and isn't bad at all, BUT, I think that's because of age (she's almost 9 now) & because my hers queen won't allow her to be a snot 

Sometimes, for whatever reason, a particular animal just won't work in your set up, but may be a good fit somewhere else..... If you really like her, keep her long enough to get kids, then move her out....

In the meantime, you might try separating her..... I had a Jr Alpine doe who was being downright evil..... Took her out for about 3 weeks, then tossed her back in. The herd dynamic had changed without her tyranny and when she came back in she got her butt kicked and the over the top aggression from her came to a halt. Could also try putting a loud bell on her collar so the others can hear her coming before she smooches then into the ground.

In my herd, if an animal makes a nuisance of themselves and I have to jump through too many hoops to keep things running smoothly, they are culled. Lots of nice animals out there, no sense in wasting time & money on a troublemaker who sucks the joy out of goat raising....


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

PrairieTrail45 said:


> I've got one like this, an Alpine. When I got her she was at the bottom of the pecking order, but she has risen to the top. And she is ruthless. My new Saanens are so sweet and docile, but she will take a swing at them if she can. Her favorite thing to do is stand at the entrance to the barn and "guard" it so no one else can come in to be milked. I usually have to go out there and shoo her outside. If it is raining out, I pen her up so the others can come in, otherwise she will make the meek ones stand in the rain.
> 
> I would have sold her as a bred doe already, but she is AI bred to a really nice buck and I would love to have a doe kid from her, she had twin bucks last year so hopefully this year is a doe year for her.
> 
> ...


This post makes me think that Marion is spot on - like HUMAN BULLIES!

The drama (and potential injuries) is soooooo NOT worth it!


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## D Bar J Acres (Nov 5, 2007)

Duchess has a warning bell lol! 

I've got 11 does out there now. She's the biggest. 5 are NDs and rest FF mini manchas. I think her granddaughter I bought as a bottle kid in spring may be like her. She's got this streak lately...

I want to grow to about 15 does this yr so I guess I'll either put her with the bucks (2 2012 boys) Sunday and see how she does or put her with another mini she came with and isn't mean to. Put out ads for her today and hope to have her gone a couple days after kidding. She'll make a great milker for someone with no other goats or someone with bigger bossier does. 

If this girl was a human queen back in the day she'd do beheadings for entertainment lol.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I wouldn't pin hopes on a doeling not being just like her dam and so I would not wait. 
I am dealing with this now. Sold the herd bulldozer and kept her daughter. Great feet and legs- super good convertor but determined to keep things stirrred up including bashing. Just like her momma. 
She will be gone as soon as she kids ( SUNDAY YAY!) and I am hoping the 3rd generation will be different or she will give me all bucks and I won't have to decide if it is worth finding out lol.
Sire is a puppy dog under any and all circumstances so I have hopes but....don't be surprised if hassling her for her doe kid gives you another just the same. 
Lee


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Yeah, that is the thing. Personalities sure do seem to run in families.


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## D Bar J Acres (Nov 5, 2007)

I'll have to keep my fingers crossed the baby gets dad's puppy dog personality (even wags his tail when scratched or even talked to). It's HARD to get mini manchas in this area, these guys are from 12 hrs away, which is about the closest, so gotta try.

On the other hand, I do have a Nigerian who is normally herd queen, a big time ear biter, as was her dam. It was funny as hell the first time Duchess grabbed HER ear. She just looked bewilderred, lol. Stressed her so much tho that after a week or two of being bullied she blew out with cocci (vet confirmed) and now she gives wide berth.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm not totally convinced that agressive personalities run in families unless the kid is dam raised and learns to be a brat from mom. The reason I say this is I once had a buck, Gandalf that was so obnoxious I sold him in spite of his excellent bloodlines. I asked the breeder of his dam if she had noticed any aggression in any of her relatives and she said no. His sire was also a laid back buck. His twin brother was actually a bit timid. I kept a son out of him for a couple of years and no aggression there either. I still have one of his daughters who is now eight years old and she's one of the sweetest Nubians I've ever owned. I don't know why Gandalf behaved the way he did. I raised him the same way I raise all the rest of my well behaved boys.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I think personality CAN run in families for sure. I have twin sisters that are snotty with my (2 year old) daughter, and another set of twin sisters that are actually cousins to those that are docile and sweet as can be. I have another doe whose mother was crazy and bashed everyone and was just rotten...she is the sweetest thing ever, and I am now thoroughly convinced her sweetness is from my buck, as he is the best little guy in the world, as was his dam, as have been all the kids out of him. He's a Nigerian, and the calmest one I have met (so many of them are high-strung/hyper!).


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