# Rumen development



## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

What is most responsible for rumen development in kids...hay/grass or grain?


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

not grain
milk/alfalfa and hay


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Grain  I know Ken wrote an excellent piece on this, why kids should be started on grain first and not hay...it's a calf article in Hoards also. It is the exact opposite of what you would think. Vicki


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

UMM well that shows you what I know


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Me, too, Sondra. I've got my kids on browse ASAP as well as hay: I love to watch them fold up the maple leaves in their wee mouths. And we start grain really late (7-8 weeks) since I always seem to have some dietary scours if I start them earlier. Guess I need to chase down Ken's piece. Anyone have a link to it?


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Perhaps search rumen written by realdairyman? Vicki


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2008)

L.A. Is your question coming from a size development (growth thing) thing, or a digestive thing ? I guess maybe you're talking about all points of a healthy active rumen.

Whim


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

Well mine get alfalfa pellets only tho they nibble and don't eat plus their milk and that is it until abt 2 mo old then I introduce grain


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,1086.0.html

this is the link where Ken made his comments.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2008)

For whatever reason....I usually get a bale or 2 of alf hay during kidding season. My doe's just seem to like it better after kidding. My kids will usually start nibbling on the flakes of alf. within 2 weeks old. .....and that's mostly what they eat on until the hay is gone.
One thing that I find strange about these babies is this. I have about 3 or 4 old rotten stumps out there in the pen.....I often see these little goats eating the rotten wood off of those stumps. Just little bitty pieces, but have seen them do this often until they are several weeks old. It must be a rumen development thing too. My adults wouldn't eat that rotten junk if you made them. I've worried that the kids will catch some kind of crud off them old stumps, but so far nothing bad has happened.
Off course, my kids are eating alf pellets and some grain by the age of 6 weeks old....and are weaned shortly after that if they are eating well.

Whim


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

My question is largely coming from a necropsy and discussion relating to a doe that we recently lost. The gross necropsy was notable for the fact that her rumen villi was nearly totally eroded--gone. At first the vet proposed that it was possibly a congenital problem--the doe was born that way. Upon histiopathic examination of the tissue samples the vet/pathologist at A&M said that the villi erosion seen was due to chronic rumen acidosis. They further stated that such chronic rumen acidosis is due almost entirely to heavy carb/grain consumption. 

Then I was researching online for info on rumen villi development--basically the care and keeping of rumen  and ran across an article referencing the same calf study that apparently states that early carb feeding causes STRONG villi growth.

Studied further and got mired in statements by the grass-fed only folk who stated that it is hay or grass (or alfalfa pellets) that would support rumen development.

So...just trying to figure out what is what. Did heavy grain cause good rumen villi development...or kill her by eroding her villi?


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

L.A. ...so glad that you came back to explain. I'll be looking for some interesting comments from some of these long timers on here. Sounds almost like a K.W. thing to me.

Whim


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

K.W.?


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Kaye White?


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

ah. probably.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

I would also like to hear what some of the more experienced breeders say about this issue. This is something that we have talked about before, especially because of our customer base.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

We are talking about several things here that are unrealted. Goats in crisis will loose villi very very quickly and I can't believe that most goats who die in questionable curcumstances like yours did wouldn't have not only villi gone but holes through the rumen also. Maybe I shouldn't have said that outloud. But we know what happened to these does. Villi is readily killed as is bacteria by acidosis and acidosis is part of the death process of the goat. So this finding at necropsy to me isn't uncommon, it would be expected in any kind of metobolic distress. With this we are talking adults.

Now kids.....Starting out the rumen development with grain/carbs makes sense because they are not ruminants who are dependant upon forage yet. They really are single stomached animals to begin with. They also don't have the bacteria or the villi  in their rumen to eat long stem forage, of which alfalfa pellets and alfalfa leaves aren't....remember we get talked about this to death!

Although eventually they can convert celulous readily, when first ruminanting they can't. So converting grain carbs to sugars is easier and builds a bigger rumen with more capacity. Then as they age and longer forage is added, they have the capacity to hold more while their new found bacteria grow in numbers to efficently eat it.

Now...post that artcile LeeAnn so we can discuss what others get from reading it  I hope it's the same article. Vicki


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

Well the one article that I was reading only referenced the study and there are other things in th article that we know are not ideal, but...

http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/issues/84/84-2/Nancy_Nickel.html

Ah...here is more...

"Hay and grain are both important in the production of rumen volatile fatty acids (VFAs). These VFAs are by-products of digestion which are utilized for energy and growth. However, grains (concentrate) have been shown to play a more critical role in the formation of rumen papillae, which are finger-like projections in the rumen designed for absorption of nutrients. Diets high in energy value (grains) result in the formation of greater concentrations of butyric and propionic acids. These VFAs have a considerably greater effect than acetate, a by-product of the digestion of hay, on the formation of rumen papillae by stimulating blood flow to the rumen, resulting in increased rumen growth and activity."

from http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/dairy/404-283/404-283.html


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"But we know what happened to these does. "

Well we know what happened to one of them. The second necropsy looked very different to the vet than the first even tho she was expecting the same...the one had holes through the obamasum. The other had a fine obamassum, but no villi...


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

Grain is the most important factor in Rumen Devolepment. Look at it this way...grains has the same nutritional value as chocolate. Hay/grass the same a greens in a salad. What makes you bigger faster?

That was the way that it was told me...and really if you look at a small kids growth, do they need the same requirements as an adult? Dry matter intake goes to three things...1st body maintance and growth...2nd...reproduction...and lastly milk production. The calories will go to the next item till the first has been met. Look at Marathon runners...the skinny little things. Most women who run marathons are sterile, since they can not meet the calories for maintance.

With a growing kid/calf the rumen starts out as nothing...smallest compartment of the stomach system. You as a grower have to kick start the thing, to get any growth within the rumen. Grain does that by giving the animal a higher Calorie diet, and more complete diet. If you look on the tag of a calf starter...the feeding instructions clearly state that you should start feeding grain at an early age. Then read along and it will say to introduce forage later. The Villi in the rumen sole purpose is to digest fiber. If you look at a human or any monogastic(single stomach) mammal you would see very little villi. Now, in a healthy rumen, it should look like the great shag carpets of the 70's. And, about the same puke green in color. 

Can you loose Villi? Yes, its not a fast movement though. It takes time and effort. They are like a muscle, you dont use it...you loose it. Any prolonged feeding of high concentrates will cause the rumen to loose the villi. A high level of concentrate....above 65% of the diet. Now, look at alfalfa pellets...then take a look at a protien pellet. They look the same...so alfalfa pellets are digested the same as protien pellets. There is little long stem fiber in any pellet...no matter what they are made of. So, you are going to an acid rumen from feeding a high level of them. That is why you need to always have some type of long stem fiber in the diet. Be it grass, alfalfa hay, straw, something that will make them chew their cud. 

Animals with rumen are the most wonderful things when it comes to diets. They can take feed stuffs that no other animal can use and live on them. The sole purpose of a rumen to change fiber in Amino acids for the animal to use. Something we can not even do. That is why, they need a high fiber diet, they is what they was made to do.

Now, holes in the obamassum. That is called hardware, they ate something at sometime in thier life that was metal. Wire, nails, thumbtacks, anything. What happens there is they drop in the obamassum and stay there. Then are some point they will poke their way into the walls. Then it will cause the true diesase, of harware. They will go off feed, run just a slight fever, start building up fuild around the heart and lungs. What happens is a internal infection in the stomachs. They best way to treat hardware is to give some type of antibotic, be it LA200, LARGE doses of penG,or naxel. That is get the fever done and fight the infection. After that, well during that time. A magnet needs to be placed in the stomach. I am sure you have seen that long round magnets at the feed store. Well that is what they are for. Just put on down them. It is very common for large dairies to place a magnet down the cattle at their first freshening. Infact we do it with the goats even. That way if they eat any metal they are safe(kinda of). They dont cost that much and I would say about 60% of the time they help.

KEn in MO


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

:biggrin Yep...I was thinking K.W. ---Kaye White

.....and WOW ! This is the reason that I stay with this forum......so many years of combined knowledge on here, that even the most complex things get some light shed on them.
.....and Ken, I better understand your position a while back, when discusing pellets verses long stemmed hay....and talking about seeing goats at other places that seldom chew their cud.

You folks just took me to school.

Thanks, Whim


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## Sharpgoat (Feb 7, 2008)

I was just talking this past weekend about magnets and hardware disease.
Ken when you give a magnet to a goat do you give a whole or half of one and what age?
There is a magnet in Jeffie's that is coated and 2 oz instead of 4 oz.
Fran


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

I do have a question to ask about this. How does keeping, or not keeping baking soda out free choice, effect the rumen along the lines of what we are talking about here.

Whim


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

In the case of these obamasum holes necropsy seemed to distinctively who that this was erosion caused by ingestion of caustic substances.

We had two does die--one presented very similarly to milk fever with plummeting temps and dramatically decreased appetite for grain and nonexistent milk production and at the vets had really out-of-whack blood chemistry levels such as unreadably high calcium and glucose. This doe was found on necropsy to have holes eaten in the obamasum due to what the vet said was caustic substances. 

The second died after we owned her just one month. She was fine at eve chores but by morning was weak with scours and on necropsy was found to have extensive fat deposits on liver, kidney with practically nonexistent villi in the rumen.

Philosophical ???

Why would it be that grain develops rumen villi when 'in the wild' goats don't eat grain? How do wild goat's villi develop?


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

In actuality they do eat grains, just not processed grains. Grasses and other wild growing vegetation produce the seeds that wild goats eat. So in effect they are eating grain. Hill sides around here are chalked full of grasses and even oat, barley, and wheat that filter from agriculture fields. Tammy


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## Tricia (Oct 26, 2007)

Here's another piece "How Calf Starter Intake Drives Rumen Development" on how dry matter intake starts rumen development and the difference between grain as dry matter and hay as driy matter:

http://www.calfnotes.com/pdffiles/CN027.pdf


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

but browse, the preffered diet is NOT grain.


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## stacy adams (Oct 29, 2007)

What do the magnets do? ok, besides attracting metal.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

OK...yes wild goats dont eat grains. That is very true, but do you want your dairy does to grow like wild goats? Where Mountain Goats before they have thier first kid is on average the age of 4. You can get by with not feeding grains, but dont ask her to produce the amount of milk or off spring that we require of the dairy animals. She will kill herself from doing that. Also, if you talk about wild vs. the dairy/meat type. Are you willing to let them run over a large amount of land? Or do you have them penned up in a smaller amount of land? The stress of the smaller pen...worms, bacteria, and all that. They just can get the rumen delovopment that they need. Everytime one comes down with a runny nose that is putting stress on her. More stress the less growth...goes back to maintance. As producers of animals we have taken them out of the wild, changed the way we feed them and what we ask from them. Thus so, we have to change the way we feed them also. In the wild they only produce enough milk for the offspring no more, when in the summer months the browse is at the low level they dry up and the kids are weaned. They are not asked to milk into the fall. That is time for them to get fat on the back.

All magnets jobs are to attract metal. We use the 4oz and just use a balling gun to put them down them. The way we feel and have dealt with hardware, is that its better safe than sorry. They can be fine one milking and then the next have nothing and go down hill fast. Hardware is hard to explain till you have seen it happen. Its something that once you have seen it you will remember.

Ken in MO


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yes, goats do naturally eat seed heads from grasses. And babies being born in the spring, would have access to seed heads from cool season grasses. So I don't think grain is an unnatural food to goats, I think it's just often overdone..

Wild deer around here are similar to goats and of course eat natural diets (well some get corn from people that feed them) and the does generally breed at 1.5 years of age. Considering that they are usually born in May or June and breeding season is in the fall, that doesn't seem late at all. They grow quickly on browse and come fall they are good sized. And I wouldn't downplay the stress and energy expenditure of wild animals. They have to do a lot more work than our domestic animal, and deer having twins usually, can't produce just a whole lot less than our goats. They do wean sooner. But surviving in the wild, moving many miles per day, running from predators and things that scare them, finding water sources, and we live in the hills, those are *country* miles. A lot of calories spent that way I'm sure. 

I found all this information pretty interesting, and what I draw from it is to give the kids a bit of grain along with their hay/browse, mainly because I can't believe it is in anyway bad for them to get roughage at an early age, when they naturally desire to eat it, that doesn't make much sense to *me*. So I would feed both. 

Mountain goats are way north and live in some very cold climates, so their food is going to be much more scarce and their energy needs for staying warm much more. I also think they reach maturity more like 3 years. 

I'm just saying I don't think wild animals are these inefficient animals nor that leaves and grass just barely get an animal by. They are meant to live on them and can really get more out of it that it seems like they could. 

Just like this idea people get that because we ride horses they automatically need all this stuff, grain, shoes, supplements, like they are worked so much harder. How many domestic horses go 20-30 miles every day?


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2007)

OK...yes wild goats dont eat grains. That is very true, but do you want your dairy does to grow like wild goats? Where Mountain Goats before they have thier first kid is on average the age of 4. You can get by with not feeding grains, but dont ask her to produce the amount of milk or off spring that we require of the dairy animals. She will kill herself from doing that. Also, if you talk about wild vs. the dairy/meat type. Are you willing to let them run over a large amount of land? Or do you have them penned up in a smaller amount of land? The stress of the smaller pen...worms, bacteria, and all that. They just can get the rumen delovopment that they need. Everytime one comes down with a runny nose that is putting stress on her. More stress the less growth...goes back to maintance. As producers of animals we have taken them out of the wild, changed the way we feed them and what we ask from them. Thus so, we have to change the way we feed them also. In the wild they only produce enough milk for the offspring no more, when in the summer months the browse is at the low level they dry up and the kids are weaned. They are not asked to milk into the fall. That is time for them to get fat on the back."

Poetry! Ha, ha ha! This is great stuff! Thanks Ken. 

I came to the same conclusion a while back, too. I feel that because we domesticate the goats, and then ask them for so much more than what they would naturally give us, we need to support them better. Goats especially. Many grass fed afiacondos and ( and city folk consumers) want grass fed, but don't " get it" that it's not ideal for the goats. Ultimately, it's not a good idea to compromise the goats health by keeping them on grass or brush only. 

We tried this for several years and abandoned the method. We found that we get better weights on our kids, and they are healthier with a small amount of grain in the diet, as well as the long stemmed, good quality hay or pellets. 

Also, just to make a distinction, it is natural to give our animals some grain. We have had domestic animals for how many hundreds of years? By now, I'm sure they have mutated enough to handle some grain. I think it's slightly disengenous for grass only folks to insist that that it is bad that we give grains to the goats. It may be true that there are less desirable things that happen ( like the loss of some essential fatty acids, or an increased chance of bad ecoli strains) but on the whole the good benefits out way the bad. I think the percentage of cases of chronic acidosis goes up when the amount of grain goes up in the diet. From what I read, some cow diaries will have grains as high as 65% of the animals feed intake. I suppose there is some formula to figure out what the percentage of grain in their diet is. 

Natural selection plays a huge role in the deer/wild goat populations. Anything slightly off and there is a greater chance that they die either through a predator, or some accident or a disease. The life span for wild animals is also much less for domestic animals. I guess that means that the percentage of the deer population who likes to cross the road in front of oncoming cars should be dieing out in about 400 years, right around when we get our flying cars. 

I think it's something like miraculous that goats and cows have these genes that we can tweak to give far more milk that the animal would naturally produce, feed more people with these special goats, ect.


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:nooo uh,uh...KW ain't getting in this discussion. I'm from the OLD SCHOOL and some of my methods just don't set too well with all this new school stuff. And hypothetical, I don't get into. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
So far with my methods...I get kids that are ready to breed at 7-8 mo., go into the show ring with condition, and milkers that milk/grow to their potential. What more could I ask for?
LOL....I do find it amusing that this is based on one article in DGJ, when we have Ken who's probably done/read/studied a lot more on ruminents than anyone on this forum. A rumen is a rumen when you take off the outer shell.
Kaye


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep very few things will make me even take a small look at my management. 

I do get a smile in reading Jo's evolution....and give me 30 years an I was Ashley. But it does end up being what we make of it with our own tweaking of information. You change or you become obsolete usually to the detriment of your stock, certainly your pocketbook. Vicki


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2008)

Yes, some dairies do feed in the upwards of 65% grain. I will give you that, the management with those dairies are far and beyond great! They are great at picking up problem before the cow even knows what is going on. There is a old saying...you know your good when you know the animal is sick before they do. That goes right along with this. You have to have an eye for things. Just not what you are use to, but look at an animal that is going down, and know off the top of your head about 5 things that are wrong with her. Then be able to correct the problem as soon as possible. Time is a factor when you are talking large amounts of milk. Nothing can be put off till the next milking, or when you get around to it...its done that monent.

Also, there is a difference in feeding large amounts of grain and feeding large amounts of complete grain. With complete grains you are talking all the amino acids are in balance with each other, the TDN are correct. Then you get into all the secondary animo acids that are correct in the ration. Along with all the Vitamins, and minerals. Complete feeds are feeds that are balanced all the way around. Just not for protien or carb intake. That is why it is very popular now with large dairies to feed Total Mixed Rations(TMR). That way every bite the animal eats its the same(on paper) as the bite before and the bite after. There is no difference in the feed. Everything is mixed in a certain order to get the best use of the feed stuff.

To many of times people will say...I feed XYZ. Not to look at are they getting everything out of XYZ that they can? Instead they are putting the feedstuff down in front of them and hope that everything is coming out right. Instead of looking at how the rumen works and acts. 

When it comes to feeding young stock that is a difference of opinion of what you want. To me I think there should not be a Dry Yearling class at all. They should take that class and shove it to where the sun does not shine. Why are there 1st freshening 2 year olds...are we milking Jerseys, Guernseys...or even worse....HOLSTIENS!!!! No, we are milking dairy goats. They are able to start producing milk as a yearling, and should produce milk as a yearling. The Generation factor in goats is a year, not two like it is cattle. If your yearlings are not big enough to go into the milk string as a yearling, then you should look at if your management is correct with the animals. It all goes back to management, if you want good milk animals or poorer milk animals. Its all what you want out of your animals.

The genetic part of it is just a very LITTLE of what we have done with animals. Its more management of the animals. Yes, we have changed the Phenotype of the animals, but really have not changed the Genotype that much. Since you can still cross back to the wild animals. Look just 30 years ago at dairy animals, udder attachments was not that big of a deal, so what if they had udders that just hung there like a sack of potatoes. She milks, that is good enough. But, how well she milks, that is management. This goes back the the Univ of Minn study of genetic gain. They have cattle that are milking the same with genetics of the 50's as today cattle with the top genetics. No difference but with management.

Well that is enough time on my soap box.

Ken in MO


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2008)

BUMP

"""I do have a question to ask about this. How does keeping, or not keeping baking soda out free choice, effect the rumen along the lines of what we are talking about here."""" W

I'm mostly talking about L.A.'s original problem in this post with the goats that she lost, or goats that get similar problems like she is describing.

Does the natural bi-carb found in grass hay have a significant impact on preventing similar problems ?

Thanks , Whim


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

"Yes, goats do naturally eat seed heads from grasses. And babies being born in the spring, would have access to seed heads from cool season grasses. So I don't think grain is an unnatural food to goats, I think it's just often overdone.."

To me this is sort of like saying "I get plenty of veggies, after all every burger I eat has lettuce and pickles on it!" :lol They also likely eat a bug or two but that doesnt turn them into a carnivore!

Anyway, my main question was how/why does that which we give our goats to enable them to grow and produce end up killing them? This was a GS doe, producing 13#daily, lacking one leg to finish. Of course the vet may have been totally wrong, but...???


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## susie (Oct 28, 2007)

Ken-
do you give the 4 ounce magnet to cattle or goats?

sorry for the brief interruption of the thread... 

Susie


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Oct 25, 2007)

And I think that perhaps my intent in starting this thread has been misunderstood. I am NOT saying that grain is wrong and I am not saying that we all need to raise our goats on forage. I am simply trying to see how all the pcs fit together.

I am very much a "the studies say" kind of person. I read the studies that show that early introduction of grain supports strong villi development. So, being the kind of person that I am I believe it! But I still want to know 1)WHY does grain work that way when these are not a species that is created by God, if you will, to eat grain and 2)if grain is good, what these animals need, would it cause villi erosion? Is the vet wrong, and something else caused the lack of villi? At what point did what is good become bad for this goat? As it seems to me, in the analogy of the long distance runner, the alfalfa and hay serves the purpose of making a strong and healthy athlete and the grain serves energy needs, like the pancake dinner that my dh used to eat the night before a marathon. But when is it good energy and when does it become the overfeeding which ultimately caused this doe's death if the vet/pathologist from Texas A&M is correct?

And I think now of those folks that I know who feed mainly grain or grain based pellets with some hay...they do seem to lose more in kidding and due to mastitis and it seems to me that it is due to a lack of overall health. Their animals, like the doe that we bought then lost, LOOK great, but inside that race car isnt doing that great, not enough for longterm health.

So it begs the question for me 1)why grain, let's revisit the question and 2)how much grain and when.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2008)

LeeAnne,

Its a FINE line that you walk when you are feeding grain. There are good balanced rations and then there are not good balanced rations. The higher protien feeds....that is your beans, alfalfa pellets, and some of the small grains...well hurt the rumen more than they help. They are HOT feeds, that you have to be careful on feeding. Corn falls into that group also but, not for protien level. They will cause acid build up in the rumen...the animals type of heart burn. 

Just image having heart burn for days and weeks on end. Then think, what it will do to your insides. That is what has happened when an animal has to high of a level of grain. It burns the insides of the animal. That is where bi-carb if you will comes in. That will make the acid level drop. But, the best way to make the acid level stay at the level that it needs to be is...long stem forage. That will cause the rumen mat and more cud chewing. The more long stem fiber that they eat the lower of a acid level in the rumen is. That is why its important to have out even just some OK grass hay for them to eat at times. Its to create that rumen mat that they need. 

What level is a good level of grain? Well that depends on the management of the herd. There is no clear cut anwser there. Some people can get away with a higher level of grains where so can not. Its best to feed hay before you feed your grains. That way the long stem mat can be formed before you put in the grain in the rumen. That will cause the level of acid to drop a little bit, but not that much. You can get by with higher level of grain if you feed this way. Also, its best on the animal if you dont feed them a bunch of grain just twice a day. Make it three or even four meals a day. That will help keep the acid level down in the rumen. They less change that you can have in the rumen the better.

Think of your kids...they can go all year healthly never sick till Halloween. Then all the candy and sweets they eat...they will get an upset stomach. That causes they have upset the stomach. That is the same with goats and higher level of grains. So, prolong Halloween and think what it would do with them. Its really all about the balance of feeding. Smaller meals, balance meals, and just the right amount at the meals.

Ken in MO


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

Whim...in answer to your question...
I keep baking soda out free-choice 24/7/365! I've noticed in the heavier milking does, they consume more than the lighter milking does. Why? My reasoning...they're fed more grain than the lighter does. Fed according to production. During dry times...there's very little BS consumed-Why? Grain is fed in a LOT less quanity and more hay-Grass/Alfalfa- is consumed. Here, I've seen them walk away from the alfalfa bunks to attack the grass hay.

So I believe that the baking soda kept out is a plus and not just wasted time. Read feed tags on a large number of dairy cattle feeds, or free-choice beef feeds...it states rumen buffer. Most of the time this is plain ole' baking soda to keep the ph in check with these feeds. We even keep baking soda free-choice in the steer pastures because they are on a free-choice feeder without salt to limit intake. Steers gain weight faster and less digestive upsets when we started putting the baking soda out. 
Kaye


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2008)

Thanks Kaye......I'm gonna have to PM you a question along the same lines....I don't won't to mess with the topic here that much with B.S.

Whim


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## LMonty (Oct 25, 2007)

I've been reading this thread with great interest, its a good discussion.

I'll throw out a couple of thoughts- all open to correction, please. 

Grain itself isnt good or bad. It's what it turns into during the digestions process that affects the animal. 

The villi grow in response to the presence of certain acids that are more prevalent in digested grain than in digested browse or forage. These VFAs-volatile fatty acids -are important dietary components. The presence of certain types of VFAs stimulate villi growth to improve their absorbtion into the bloodstream, where they are transported to cells to be used for energy, growth and development. 

But it gets confusing, because "acid" is also a problem. Not the VFA's that are the good guys, but the type of digestive acids that the gut secretes to breakdown food into its components. Or the acids caused by the fermentation of feed in the rumen that doesnt have the right bacterial compositon or amount to properly digest what or how much has been eaten.

So, my take on it is that early but slow introduction of grain, giving the rumen time to respond, and the right bacterial balance to be achieved, allows the animal to digest the feed to the friendly VFA"s and the gut grows more and larger villi in response. Thats good because the larger the surface area in the rumen, (thats what villi do, increase surface area of the blood stream to the contents of the stomach) the more nutrients can be absorbed from everything they eat. 

But, large volumes of grain that overwhelm the rumens ability to digest them in a timely fashion will ferment into dangerous, non digestible acids that can damage that same rumen tissue, burning off the beneficial villi and possibly ulcerating the lining of the rumen itself. A possible cause of the holes mentioned earlier?

A simplification, but I think that when we are reading about acids some times its not clear just what type they are talking about...but AFAIK thats why grain can be good or bad. Its not the grain itself, its the volume and the animals ability to properly and safely digest it that matters. Anything that affects the rumen bacteria can turn grain feeding from a good management practice into a potentially fatal problem. Thats why kefir and probios really are so important because they help keep or repopulate the gut with the bacteria needed for safe breakdown of feeds. Bicarb- a base- combines with acid to produce relatively safe salt and water (and a little gas ) and thats why it helps either prevent or treat acid rumen.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Also remember that probiotics have only one bacteria (the one that make yogurt) that is rumen bacteria, the rest are intestinal flora. 

I think most problems are change. A change to more grain than the doe is used to, and everyone feeding byproduct feed tags has no idea what grains are mixed from batch to batch.

I do love this analogy though....the growing of a large surface area of rumen villi...you can look at folks who don't have big deep does and know there rumen in that torpedo goat is small. Why I think of it as a compliment when folks this time of year ask if my adult does are pregnant. Vicki


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Vicki- I have one of those Torpedo goats. I also have one that looks pregnant. What's up with that? They are eating the same. Could it be a possible by-product of Cocci or some deficiency as a kid?

Kim


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Sure it could. It also takes a really long time to make any changes in a goat. I always tell people to not expect much that whole first season, then on your new better management she will look better and milk better once she freshenes for you. Vicki


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## Legend Hills (May 29, 2008)

Thanks Vicki!  That is encouraging.


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