# purchasing protocol



## lorit (May 10, 2010)

When buying a goat, and you ask for CAE/CL test results - if the breeder doesn't currently have them but is willing to do the testing - is it the buyer or seller's responsibility to pay for the testing? Let's assume a fair and reasonable price is being paid for the animal so the buyer isn't lowballing or anything like that. 

Part of me says it is a small price to pay for the insurance it brings and part of me says if I am paying a good amount for an animal the seller should be willing to provide such proof that everything is as it should be.

Is it "expected" to negotiate price? I hate haggling but know that often the norm is to set a price high with an expectation that there will be some counter offers. Does that hold true in the goat world? Especially in light of the current economy?

LA scores - FS 87 VVVV - worth $400? Good breeder with good reputation. As a relative newbie it is hard to know what an animal is "worth" and I think often the value is in the eye of the beholder. Advice on how to make those determinations please. 

Thanx!


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Like most reputable breeder I test for CAE yearly and will show those tests to any prospective buyer. If the buyer wants to do an additonal test I would expect them to put down a deposit and pay for that test - and if as long as the test comes back negative then to complete the purchase as agreed upon or forfeit their deposit.. I cant afford to do tests for everyone who is looking and dont want to hold on to a doe for a "maybe" once I decide to sell her.


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LA scores - FS 87 VVVV - worth $400? Good breeder with good reputation. As a relative newbie it is hard to know what an animal is "worth" and I think often the value is in the eye of the beholder. Advice on how to make those determinations please. :-)
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Regarding the above - I believe any registered doe in milk in good condition with good production is worth at least that. What I would be looking at is how much she is producing, temperament and how well trained she is. Is she trained to the milk stand and easy to milk. Also what is her body condition like? Those are the things I would be looking at when going to see her and making my determination whether to offer to buy. And I would go see her before making any decisions.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

The goats' pedigree will also factor into the value of the animal. How old is she?

Goats in milk in October can almost command their price - so if you really like her, pay the $10.00 ($4.00 for Biotracking, supplies and shipping).

How much is she milking? 

As far as who pays - it depends. I would rather negotiate the price of the animal and any additional tests or health certificates etc are the responsibility of the buyer. Saanen in milk - her price is her price. We won't take less than our asking price. Had a man tell me how much he liked to bargain etc, so I told him that the goat was another $200.00.... Now he could negotiate the price down to the "real" price and we would both be happy. :rofl He still bought the goat..... Good breeder with good reputation can probably wait to receive their price.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Value in a functional animal like a healthy milking doe is not in the eye of the beholder. It is in her potential and in the labor and knowledge and willingness of the owner to get this animal to a point where she is of use to anyone. 
It is in the amt of service you will get for your money. People who do not have goats are always astounded at the prices they command up front but this signals to me an unwillingness to accept the ongoing expense as well. They are not cheap to maintain either and if people are balking at the original price they have no idea about what is involved.
Just try to get one to the point of a trained milking doe and see how much you are making at 400 or even 500. 
I cannot work with people who are looking for a deal when it is my labor - my learning over time- my willingness to do constant caretaking they are buying. If you ask me for a discount you will NOT get one. Normally on multiple purchases we do some discount but if you ask- you are outta here! Why should we price our animals at some random interpretation of what people might ask for as a discount? We run into this with our pottery sales all the time. People think if they buy more than one piece they should get a discount. I still had to make each piece right and each was the same amount of labor right? And each goat is worth the price if you are only buying one so why is it worth less if you are buying two? The buyer assumes the seller NEEDS to sell. Insulting assumption. This is a real sore spot with me for terribly under priced animals anyway. Offering a lower price is a sure way to get NO goats from me. 

I know that is not really what you were asking but I hope you will not assume the need to bargain on the price.
If you think the animal fits your purposes and is verifiably healthy then that is a very good price. 
We met a man that has a sign that says- "I will be glad to raise my prices so I can give you a discount"
Good luck with your decision.
Lee


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

Lee,
Not at all offended by what you said - I just am trying to understand it all. And I am coming to fully appreciate all the work and cost involved with the two I have. 

Ziggy,
Specifically with regards to testing the following has been the dialogue so far:

Seller - We raise kids on dams as it seems to preserve the herd social structure and makes for growthy, healthy kids. We have never had the whole herd tested for CAE although animals we’ve sent out for export and to buyers who requested it have all been CAE negative. The herd is very healthy and closed. 

Me - If I chose to buy her and paid a deposit, would you be able to get the CAE/CL test done prior to actual purchase?

Seller - If you are willing to pay for the cost of my vet drawing blood and getting the test done, I’d be willing to haul her into town to get it done. A $100 deposit will hold her and more than pay for the test. Should she test positive, I’ll return the deposit minus the CAE test cost. 

Thanks everyone,
Lori


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

The dialogue you had seems fair and reasonable but if she is dam raising I would definetly pay for and insist on a CAE test is she/he has none available to show you.

Also I should note that evaluation of the LA score is dependent on the age of the does. If this is a first freshener that is a very excellent score - even if she is a 5 year old it is still pretty good. I am very happy with any FF that scores 85 or above.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

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We met a man that has a sign that says- "I will be glad to raise my prices so I can give you a discount"
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I probably shouldn't admit this but that is what I have done. I price mine so that the person looking for a $100 goat wont bother me.

IF there is someone who seems genuinely interested and has taken the time to educate themselves or (especially) a 4-H/FFA person who I know is going to show I will give a discount if asked or even offer it.

However Lee is right - if you are raising a goat til its in milk you already have more than $400 and probably more than $500 in hay and feed alone in the doe.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I always ask for the test even if it is a retest, an won't buy anymore unless a buck also is tested for G6S, and yes I pay for it up front. It also sort of warns them that I am serious about it all, and they also will be retested when they hit the farm.

Have you seen these animals in person? My biggest flag with what she said is the dam raised part. Is she tame? I mean really tame, not just tame that the owner can catch her, but that she comes to you. Do not buy a wild animal! Do not think for one second you can tame her down, you can get her used to the routine, but you can not tame her down. A bottle kid that is freaky wild, can be tamed down in another enviornment, but a dam raised freaky goat will always be this way.

You want the tests ran, you want to pay for it, and you tell them that if she tests positive or borderline you will not purchase her. The nicest thing about an appraisal score is that a knowledgeable person has already their hands on this doe before you, so multiple teats or orifices or old mastitis or really poor conformation or bite, isn't going to come on a 87 doe. Vicki


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## Epona142 (Sep 2, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> Have you seen these animals in person? My biggest flag with what she said is the dam raised part. Is she tame? I mean really tame, not just tame that the owner can catch her, but that she comes to you. Do not buy a wild animal! Do not think for one second you can tame her down, you can get her used to the routine, but you can not tame her down. A bottle kid that is freaky wild, can be tamed down in another enviornment, but a dam raised freaky goat will always be this way.


First let me say, I agree! Don't buy a wild goat. It's not worth the trouble most of the time, especially for those who work with the higher end of goats.

But it's not true. A wild dam raised kid CAN be a tamed. A wild dam raised ADULT absolutely CAN be tamed.

My first goats came to me wild as untouched March hares. I had to trap them, tie them to the fence to do anything with them. Especially my first goat, Hope.

Now, between 2-1 years later, I can't keep these goats off of me. I call them and here they come, running. They rub against me, beg for treats, chew on my clothes. They are wary of strangers, but if that stranger is quiet, they will go over and sniff their pockets and allow themselves to be petted.

To this day, there is only ONE goat I was unable to tame, and it was an abuse case.

So yes, they can be tamed. Babies are far easier, but adults can be tamed MOST of the time. But it takes a massive amount of work. "Normal" people with lives outside of the home certainly don't have the time for that.

Even I, the 'Goat Whisperer' (as coined by my husband) prefer to no longer bring home wild goats. Even I don't want to spend the time it takes to tame em!

Anyways, that's just my 2cents. I still agree, wild goats aren't worth it.


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## wheytogosaanens (Oct 26, 2007)

PS Most breeders agree that if the test is negative for CAE (something they are assuring you that they DO NOT have)- then you pay for the test. If positive, they pay for the test.

That seems fair to me and reasonable. 

PS PM me the name of the breeder - -perhaps I will recognize it. Ditto for the pedigree.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

So where do y'all get $400+ for a goat? Lee, you live in the same state as me. Is there a market for getting that much for 87VVVV goat? Is this just going to be to other breeders? New people don't know what to look for a usually aren't going to pay more. People who just want a "milk goat" often won't pay it. There are soooo many $100 goats out there. How many people are there out there that are truly looking for more than that? And how do you find them!


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

87VVVV is a very respectable score...especially for a young milker! There are does with their championships in some areas with weaker competition with scores like this. A dairy would kill to have milkers of this quality. Most does at dairies have + udders.

At some point you have to stop keeping stock that doesn't give you animals you can sell for more money. You have to stop devalueing your time and your stock. A $400 goat even milking 1/2 gallon a day after the move is giving you $4 in milk a day, thats 100 days of lactation that she pays for her keep and her purchase price. And yet some will sell her for $100. It's one thing for a dairy who is not going to show or appraise to sell cheap kids and cheaper milkers who don't work out on the dairy, it's a whole nother thing when someone breeding goats does this. It's not a business then. It's a hobby a very expensive hobby. Vicki


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## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

When I was looking for my first goats, I did something along the lines of what Camille mentioned. I found some goats and they hadn't been tested. I said that I wanted them tested for CL and CAE. If the tests came back negative, I would buy the does and pay for the tests. If they came back positive, I would not buy the does, nor would I pay for the tests. I also said I would send a deposit, so that she knew I was serious. The seller agreed. I did not end up buying the does, as they were both CAE+ and she mailed my deposit check back to me.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I think how much you can get for a goat does depend on where you live. I'd love nothing more than to get $400 each for my does. Unfortunately, people around here won't pay that much. I've had does and doelings advertised on Craigslist for the past couple of months for $100-$200 and they are still here. I will be receiving a deposit this week for two doelings after our goat superintendent referred her to me. The economy has dried up what used to be annual dairy runs.
As for that doe's LA score, I agree it is good for a young goat. My buck's dam appraised as a two year old at 86VV+E. This year she appraised at 90 VEEE. An example of goat economy here - I paid $200 for the buck as a yearling and $50 for his paternal half sister when she was a young kid. She went on to earn her dry leg two months later. This is from a herd that has whole herd tested CAE negative for 18 years and does LA and milk test. Yikes, I really should move south and so should my friend.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Well although I have no doubt that you can find a quality goat sometimes for $100 or $200 I have to agree with Vicki - you will not get that from a breeder who is in it for business for the long run. 

And if you are looking at goats in the $100 range you may have to be looking for a long time before you find quality (what is the cost of your time and travel?).

It is kind of like the difference between a dog breeder who sells registered puppies vs the free or $25 puppy, or the any other type of animal. That is why in cows for example some bulls go for 10s of thousands and others in the hundreds. Same with horses.

If someone is doing LA and/or DHIR, feeding their goats well, testing for CAE, paying for Linear Apraisal etc then they have 400+ in even a yearling milker - and as Vicki says that goat will pay for itself in production in a few months.

I realize sometimes people just have to sell but for those of us who are working at breeding quality animals we need to ask for a price (and wait to get) a price that represents that investment in time and money.

If you take the price of quality bucks (or the price of a straw of semen and supplies ) many of us probably have $50 or more in a kid before it is even born.


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Ziggy, in the Pacific Northwest...if your does are not Grand Champs, you do not LA, you do not DHIR, and you do not test, a goat goes for what you can get. If you LA, do test, and have good stock you can expect $200.00, especially in smaller communities. 

Now if you purchase great stock from well known herds, show, do LA and the scores are over 85, DHIR, test and have good management you can get up to $350.00 a kid and $400.00 a doe, but she has to be phenomenal for another breeder to buy her.

Grades are another story. IF you LA and have their scores and they appraise over 84 you can get $200.00 a dry yearling...BUT you better have both dam and sire available for viewing or have a pedigree on at least one of them. Maybe $300.00 for a milker. 

Now on another note if you are a reputable breeder you can ask whatever you want. Its just getting to that reputable breeder status.

We pay twice a year on tests, at this point, and if someone wants an animal retested even though they have been tested recently...they can pay to have it done. I keep records of their tests and gladly show them at anytime. But there is no way I am paying for testing that was already done. If I was purchasing yes I would pay.
Tam


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I am breeding for quality animals and I show at the two shows we have here in Montana each summer. If I held onto mine until I could get $400 each, I would be overrun by goats and not able to freshen the does each spring. My herd has vastly improved over the ten years I've been at it. This had been confirmed to me by one of the country's top Nubian breeders who attend the shows here in Montana. I currently run a base herd of 25 after the extras have been sold in fall. Ideally, I should reduce this to 15 or 20 so it would be easier to haul the girls to Bozeman for LA. I'd love to be able to actually make a living off the goats, but it's also a personal goal of mine to produce home grown champions which is a real challenge when competing against a premier Nubian breeder.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

Local economy and level of involvement of the 4h community can contribute to pricing and in the past replacement does for commercial dairies kept the prices steady but I was amazed at people like Aja-Sammati selling her great stock for what is paid for an inferior goat here. I wanted to get a whole trailer load! So yes it is highly variable but we have 350 as our bottom price for a FF that is clean and stanchion ready and purebred ADGA registered. We used to sell crossed LM/Nubian for 300.00 and it was a steal since they produced at 12 pounds and up as FF and milked for 10 months if you fed them. It's a mistake in my mind to consider show stock as the only stock worth the higher prices but of course I don't raise show goats. It is that way with all animals people breed and sell. Functional well trained healthy home milkers that can keep a family in milk and cheese for a decade are worth more than 200.00 !!! And I will feed them to my dogs before selling them that cheap!


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks again, Lee! I ought to hire you to do advertising for me...
I include a CAE test in the last 45 days in the purchase price of a doe, but the buyer would have to pay for any other testing. That is what it says in my contract, so no misunderstandings. Depending on the bloodlines, I would definitely pay the price for the doe. She sounds like she is coming from a herd that is putting some extra time & money into their herd...but I would wonder why they aren't willing to pay for hte CAE test themselves...unless they have the vet draw blood instead of doing it themselves, and don't want the extra expense.

And I have to chime in as someone that has lived in the South (MS) and on the Pacific coast. There is just not the market here for quality family milkers that there is in many other parts of the country, a doe has to appraise at least 87 to even be competitive for a 4H project in most places out here. Appraisal is great, but I have 89+ scoring does that will never finish in the competition here (they might have more of a chance if ever took them to shows :lol). Milk test only matters if you are selling to dairies, and you have to have an 'in' before you can do that...out here, dairy contacts are precious, and closely guarded secrets! It is a constant irony to me that I live among the best of the best in the dairy goat worls- top herds in every breed...but the going price for does here is painfully low...not what I had envisioned in my business plan. But this is not a hobby for us, so we find other ways to make the bottom line prettier!


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> At some point you have to stop keeping stock that doesn't give you animals you can sell for more money. You have to stop devalueing your time and your stock. A $400 goat even milking 1/2 gallon a day after the move is giving you $4 in milk a day, thats 100 days of lactation that she pays for her keep and her purchase price.


I guess that's a lot of it. That same 1/2 gallon here is worth more like $2.50. And in different areas of the country, a dollar is simply worth more or less too. So that same $400 may simply go farther for some areas.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I haven't sold a goat to someone in my town in a decade. If you are raising quality stock, there is likely nobody who is going to purchase from you locally. It's crazy to think your does are worth so little. Appraise at home...it's much less than going to a show or two and is certainly eaiser on the stock than shleping them to other farms if they are not used to traveling, thier scores are going to reflect the stress of traveling. Worse are those who buy bucks for thousands of dollars and then sell their kids for $200.

I am not a craigs list shopper but a doe priced at $200 I wouldn't even look at, her pedigree would have to pop out at me first, closely followed by CAE negative then if the price was low I may take a look. There are always folks looking for milkers, the problem is most folks do not milk their goats, by this time of year they are milking once a day and that kills your sales when a doe is not milking and is not bred.

And again you have to have photos and you have to have a website...use your facebook account if nothing else...go up to the top of the For Sale section here and those without websites can make their own up there, at least with photos of does and pedigrees!

And every year there are goats for sale still this time of year, and the people are already breeding does who are dry for kids in the spring...you can't flood a market that is low and think you can ever raise your prices. If the market is flooded with goats, than don't sell any the next year. I simply refuse to lower my prices because someone else thinks they are too high, if you at least got paid for what you have in the goat that would be one thing, but you aren't even thinking about your time before that kid is born, your time taking care of it, and your time helping that person with the goat after the sale.

And be the lesser breeder like I am. I sell the same bloodlines for less. And 1/2 as much is stil a tidy little sum over costs! Vicki


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

I agree about the website and not selling locally. Ever since we got up even a simple website with awful pictures (hairy udders, unclipped goats in February) I have more interest in stock sales than I can cover. I sent several buyers to a fellow breeder because of this. I sold a buckling all the way to Florida. I had folks interested from way up north in another one but he was no longer available. This year I have deposit from NY. I think we tend to devalue our own stock - think that no one would pay to fly our kid, pay good money for stud fee to our buck or make arrangements to pick up a doe. People do ! Offer to ship, advertise your deposits, your buck for stud ... and take pictures. I am still very flattered at the interest I get in my herd. Milkers here are dear in winter and very early spring so I bred those I wanted to part with to kid in those times to get top dollar. 

Kathie, I would drive to Montana to get a trailer of does and kids from you if I could see them before I make plans. Pedigrees and LA numbers are helpful but only if you have good shots of the actual goat. Any breeder will eventually have to look outside their town and state, as only a number of bloodlines are available locally. No sense in buying from local folks and then show against them in the ring.


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

So here is what I am gathering from this conversation 

The northwest - which is where I live - seems to be somewhat lower or devalued compared to some of you folks in other parts of the country. That being the case, while I understand the point of view many of you have, I also look at it like any other purchase. We compare products to the current local market, research, etc. If my local market doesn't typically command that price, is it wrong for me to seek to pay a price more in line with what is happening locally?

That said, for you NW folks particularly - the herd name on this goat is Missdee's - does that alter your opinion(s)?

While, if I am serious about this doe I should protect myself by getting and paying for all tests, if a breeder represents themselves as having a clean herd, they shouldn't balk at proving that. I personally would be willing to accept test results anytime within the past year but this breeder is saying they don't test unless asked to and wants me to pay for vet to do the blood draw and test. And if it did come back positive it would still be on my dime.

The goat in question is 4 years old, was appraised a year ago (87VVVV), and has freshened three times.

I would absolutely go visit in person to see how the goat's personality is. And I want to milk her myself to see is she really is easy to milk.

You are right in that a doe still milking and not yet bred is getting rare this time of year so that may account for her asking price.

Thanx for the ongoing conversation - it is helpful.
Lori


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

If this goat is being sold directly by Gene of Missdee's I would jump on it without hesitation. Very quality well known herd and long time breeder of French Alpines. I had considered ordering a buck from them last year - and I am in NC.

If it is from another herd I would go see it first as you cant tell how it has been managed since it left Gene's place.


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## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, that herd name makes a difference! Are you wanting to show, or just a milker? Are you wanting to have a milker and maybe show? That price is a decent price, well within what is reasonable for a good milker from a well known herd name. Now, for me, I would negotiate- if the tests are + then they pay, if negative then I would...or just keep shopping! And expect to pay $300-600 for an Alpine in your area that is from a well known herd...even if prices are low. If she is in milk, she is worth more. One of the benefits of buying from a long time breeder, like Vicki, is that you have a beter chance the goat was cared for well. You can buy name brand from a 4H child and maybe the goat was never dewormed or ?? Now are you talking about buying from Gene, or just a doe from the Misdees herd that someone else is selling?


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## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

Here's another way to look at it.

What are you gaining by purchasing this particular doe? 
Is this a purchase that will give your herds offspring what you are looking for? 
Will you retain the offspring and be selling the dams?
Is the offspring going to give you a market? 
Will they be comparable to or of higher quality than that of what is already around? 

Putting it into these terms should answer your own questions for yourself. It does for our herd. 
If it was me, yes as long as the does offspring definately improved breed characteristic/traits, found by looking at her progeny. And if she was better than anything I already had.

I am not personally familiar with MissDees.
Tam


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## lorit (May 10, 2010)

To answer ?'s - yes it is from Gene directly.

My primary purpose is milk and he says she is a good consistent milker. I gain immediate milk and future potential.

I would keep her and sell kids unless I got a doeling I really wanted to keep and raise for myself. At least for the next few years.

Based upon LA scores and pedigree she is better than my other two does and moves me in the right direction for building a herd. I also have available a PB buck for when I am ready to breed her.

Don't really know yet what the immediate market is but I think she and her offspring would be comparable or better assuming I breed responsibly.

Going to visit and check her out on Thursday. If her personality and mine mesh and she is easy to milk, I'll place a deposit and order the tests. Thanx for the advice and input.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

And if it did come back positive it would still be on my dime.
................

I don't care who the breeder is this is nonsense! If the doe has any possiblity of testing positive than they would not have said this! Why support people who have strings like this attached to what should be a clean herd sold to a new person. This is unacceptable.


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

Boy I must be a goat whisperer, cuz with all this 'don't buy a wild doe' advice, it's news to me! LOL I've bought or 'rescued' many insanely wild, to the extent they would BITE, does (even a few bucks) and in a few months time they were following strangers around, standing w no restraints out in the field to have feet done and milking tethered to a fence just like all my bottle raised kids... I have two does in my herd, both dam raised (yes I tested) I bought one last yr and one this yr, the one from last year is the friendliest goat I have now and adores all humans the other one is one her first month here and has settled down dramatically. I find it pretty easy to turn them around full circle, even with strangers, and they're far less annoying than my bottle babies LOL But I won't say it's easy, it takes a lot of dedication to rehabilitate them, I find it rewarding though and a great way to get good lines for cheap


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I think the key to what you said Ashely is the dedication part. When you have an established system and routine twice a day down perfectly and throw a crazy in there it just makes them all crazy. Not acceptable if milking for output because then production drops and it takes longer to do stuff and you rip your shoulder out trying to get them on the stanchion etc etc. For people who have to produce...ie- milk customers scheduled most days of the week or cheese production spoken for- a wild one is not worth the time. Maybe they could pay off if you just throw them out with the bucks and harvest kids to bottle so you can use the lines. But then why risk that behavior cropping up later in goats that you have worked with normally.I would venture that you were addressing nutritional behavior problems. Many times people do not realize that hungry or nutrient deficient animals can be aggressive and have wild behavior and when their food needs are properly addressed they calm down noticeably. Particularly if they come to realize there is a steady supply of food where it has been intermittent before. I read about a study of children in inner city schools that are violent that proved they were simply malnutritiated.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Yea, in that situation, it could easily be a problem. But new people starting out, they have time and inclination to fool with stuff like that. I did


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## cariboujaguar (Feb 9, 2009)

No, these goats were from nice homes, fed well and on a more strict schedule then I myself practice, my herd has never had a set routine and they tend to be all the happier for it, they are on constant browse, fed 2 times a day alfalfa and grain and have free choice fresh hay/min/BS. Feeding time is whenever before noon and whenever after noon I can get out there to do it. Milking can even be an hour or two off but much less often... These two goats (although I've had many rescues who were very malnutritioned and that seemed to be the case) were from retired show homes, still on yearly disease testing, but dam raised, fed well and well cared for, they were just buck-wild, their dams had been bottle babies, maybe that helps, but I 'tamed' them as dry yearlings, they were impossible to catch for their previous owners also, they were flat out eyes rollin in their heads crazy. Maybe I have a secret power I am unaware of LOL


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

I think it is very important to milk a dairy animal before buying. Check out the texture of the udder -- any lumps? Meaty? Is the milk good? Any off-odors or flakes or lumps in it? A good animal with large teat-orifices is worth having, even if it may not be all that tame. A nice goat with tiny, tiny teats or teat-openings will be a real pain to milk -- maybe worse if she is a heavy milker! That is, if you enjoy milking.  

I wonder -- if you can visit the animal and milk it, and you know how to take a blood-sample, if you could take a sample then and there and send it off for testing. With the owner's permission, of course. Always good to check it out yourself if you can. :yes


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## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

When the economy is bad, sometimes it gets hard to move product. Could be cheese, milk, goats or widgets. At least you can eat cheese, milk or goats. Be thankful. You will never go hungry with livestock like this.


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## Bernice (Apr 2, 2009)

> That said, for you NW folks particularly - the herd name on this goat is Missdee's - does that alter your opinion(s)?


For me it's not so much about the herd name or long breeder, but more about the following information/factors: paying $400.00 or more for a doe, buck, or kid would depend on first what they looked like, their pedigree: GCH's, CH's, milk testing data concerning milk production and if there is a line of dams that have earned their stars and then of course milk production. Also if any pictures exist of dams and bucks to see what they look like. I'm looking for consistency and improvement. Add to that show wins and what bloodlines the breeder used to improve their lines. I've been breeding Alpines for years and pretty much know what lines work with what lines. The French Alpines have a lesser gene pool to work with than Americans so it's critical to my breeding program to know what lines cross well and don't. For example you will see Missdees Nadia back in many of the French Alpines pedigrees. Nadia was their national GCH yrs ago. But in my humble goatie opinion tha doesn't mean I should go out and purchase those bloodlines just becaue they had a national GCH in their pedigree because that may or may not work. With you starting out Missdees would be a good starting point but then comes the fun part, who to breed her to later. Also see what her kids lok like and remember, French Alpines take longer to mature than America, up to 5 yrs. Hope thuis helps.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Looks like I finally have homes lined up for all the does and doelings I want to sell. I have deposits coming from two women in northern Montana. I'm not getting the $250-$400 each I'd get in the south, but it will help pay for my next load of hay. The one good thing about Montana is that quality alfalfa hay is cheaper here. I paid $125 a ton including delivery for the current hay I'm using. I know there are some folks who would rather butcher animals than sell them for less, but for my DH and I, the girls are more than just livestock. We get attached to them and would rather see them in good homes.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

I pay about 3x that for hay so that would make a big difference in costs.


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## prairie nights (Jan 16, 2009)

Kathie, 

glad you found homes for them and that you feel comfortable knowing where they will be going  If you have extra time on your hands this winter and get a website up, I just may come shopping - always wanted to see Montana so it's just icing on the cake. Actually looked into real estate seriously at one time in Kalispell and Whitefish area.


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## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

> would rather see them in good homes.


That is great Kathy- I know they are nice stock.
Since it was me that mentioned butchering them I would like to clarify that it is my opinion that if someone cannot or will not afford to pay the asking price for the goat then they cannot or will not pay for the feed and I can't call that 'a good home' so they are better off NOT going there. That was my point. We are ridiculous caretakers -planting extra and cutting up veggies and dragging browse and watering the pasture and planting winter forage and buying tested hay etc etc etc. We are attached- that is why we won't send them off to someone who thinks they cost too much!!!!!! I am feeding 24 does with no intentions of breeding so no income from them so you see we really are not all that eager to kill off goats. I just won't send them somewhere they are not valued. I drive by too many pitiful examples of lost interest.

I do understand the market and I envy you your cheap quality alfalfa. We pay 5 and 6 dollars just for grass hay in fairly light bales. So there are benefits and drawbacks to all locations but happy to hear your extras found homes. 
Lee


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## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

As a buyer protecting myself, I would NEVER hesitate to pay for a test, positive or negative on any doe I was thinking of buying. If she's negative, then great, the money was well spent to find that out, but if she is POSITIVE, even BETTER! $10 is a very, very low price to insure the future health of a herd. 

I think $400 is a very fair price to pay for a doe that has been professionally evaluated, and given a nice score. 

Her being dam-raised would be a concern to me. Yes, I've had dam-raised does that were tame and easily milked, but they were no where near as friendly as our bottle raised does and that's the only real reason I bother to bottle raise. I would pay a lot more money for a bottle raised kid that would fit into the herd much better. 

Good luck!


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