# Johnnes in cow's milk



## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

Since some of you have said that the vet at convention may not have been accurate about copper needs, here's another thing I want to run by you. I went to a workshop by another vet who is also a goat breeder. She said tests have been run on pasteurized cow's milk from the store and that they have cultured Johnnes out of some of it. The vet says that the commercial pasteurization of cow's milk doesn't kill Johnnes, but the process of making powdered milk does. I don't want to jump to conclusions about what she said, but I also don't want to risk exposing next years crop of goatlings to a disease worse than CAE either.


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Oh, Kathie. I certainly want to know more about this. I had planned on feeding next year's kid crop store milk so I could sell the goat milk and feed the kids cheaper with the pasteurization already done. While I don't relish the idea of buying those quantities of store milk, it has the prospect of being financially quite helpful. However, I don't want the kids to get Johne's!

I was thinking, "Surely not, as this is zoonotic" but then came across this link:

http://www.johnes.org/zoonotic/index.html

With the number of people I know that have Crohn's symptoms, I have to wonder if this might not be why? Add to that that ruminants are more likely to be affected, and it doesn't look good for using store milk as an alternative 

I look forward to hearing more.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

This was on several of the lists last year, yet when asked, nobody could produce the tests. Perhaps someone with time can find them? Vicki


----------



## Caprine Beings (Sep 19, 2008)

I am happy to say "Thank You Oh Great Goat" for the prospect of NOT having to use store bought milk. Yes, I am :crazy, but after the last three years of having to supplement a milk flow, I will gladly het treat and pasturize every single drop of milk from the girls. I am down right bouncy about it. Not interested in testing for Johhnes in cow milk.
Tam


----------



## grandmajo (May 22, 2008)

This is a VERY interesting topic:

I found this in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization#cite_note-5 :

Effect of pasteurization

Milk pasteurization has been subject to increasing scrutiny in recent years, *due to the discovery of pathogens that are both widespread and heat resistant (able to survive pasteurization in significant numbers).[6]* One of these pathogens, Mycobacterium avium subsp. paratuberculosis (MAP), is linked to Crohn's Disease.[7][verification needed] Researchers have developed more sensitive diagnostics, such as real-time PCR and improved culture methods that have enabled them to identify pathogens in pasteurised milk.

And here is the link to number [6] cited above, this is a study that was done:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abst...46f46457be918f0dbd97e1a8&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

And number [7]:
http://gut.bmj.com/content/54/7/944.abstract


----------



## grandmajo (May 22, 2008)

Oh, and here's an link the the University of Wisconsin's website for Johne's:

http://www.johnes.org/zoonotic/index.html

Note that it lists as the #5 way that humans can be infected as HTST pasteurized milk.


----------



## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

This problem has been bothering me since this spring, when I went to look it up for a client that was told it wasn't safe to raie her kids on store milk...

The USDA changed ALL of their literature on Johnnes this year...saying exactly this- that pasteurization cannot be proven to kill it. They have also added LOTS more info on their website aimed towards cow dairies in an effort to get them to cull Johnnes infected cows. This is a much bigger problem for cow dairies, as they often feed their replacement heifers pooled raw milk, so they have no plan in place to prevent an entire replacement batch being johnnes infected. This is shaping up to be the CAE of the dairy cow world... only with shadows of danger to humans. (Links that have certainly NOT been proven.) Add to this the fact that most dairies don't test, and cows can be secreting the infection while showing no symptoms...see, just like CAE! BY the time a cow shows symptoms and is culled, she may have infected the replacement heifers for more than one farm.

What I have not been able to find is proof that making powdered milk (i.e. milk replacer) kills Johnnes either. Any one else have any luck?


----------



## grandmajo (May 22, 2008)

I wasn't able to find anything about powdered milk either. I mean I did find statements that said it was clean, but I couldn't find a study to back it up.

I have another question and I'm truly sorry if this is a thread drift. But is the testing for Johne's more accurate for cows than it is for goats? How do they test cows anyway, blood test? I'm reading that the most accurate test for goats is via fecal. But if their not shedding the virus at the time that the sample is taken, then you get a false negative.


----------



## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

When more dairies produced raw-milk, they tested the animals more frequently and sick animals were kept out of the milk lineup. Over 30 years ago an extension agent told my 4H group that some of the "new" commercial dairies with huge numbers of cows that produced for the all-pasteurized store milk were examples of how NOT to keep your cows. The larger producers had less time to know individual cows, were more likely to milk sick cows and believe that pasteurization would take care of everything. 

When my grandparents and great-grandparents were milking, they would remove a cow from the human-food group of milkers if she wasn't perfectly OK - maybe feed the pigs or chickens with her milk, or dump it. Was easy to make that decision. Just as, when they made jams and jellies they picked perfect fruit off of the tree and didn't even consider using anything that had touched the ground. Food safety was important in every step, and they didn't cut corners and assume that pressure-cooking or pasteurization would make up for anything.


----------



## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

There is an accurate manure test for cows but the culturing process is protracted because they actually try to grow Johnnes. There is a quicker one, a blood test, but the accuracy rate is less. The cost is there of course, which is why the large dairies will not test their cows. It is passed so very easily through the manure on a teat end then into a nursing calf. Once established in a herd like the goat CAE, it is more difficult to get rid of because by that time it is throughout your barn, pastures, holding areas and then moves to other livestock such as goats. This is one reason why when you visit another farm, you should always wear your Tingles or other rubber boots that you can wash and sanitize before going home. Cow milk is still a good choice for feeding kids. Look for a smaller dairy, ask if you can buy milk for your kids and ask if they test for Johnnes. Many of the smaller, more conscientious and well-informed farmers do test their cows for Johnnes.


----------



## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

> Look for a smaller dairy, ask if you can buy milk for your kids and ask if they test for Johnnes


This will not help people in states like mine where no small dairies exist because they are all on contract to larger companies...or most customers that we sell kids to that are looking to go to the store and buy milk off the shelf. I obviously need my own cow that I can test and raise my kids from, lol, and sell milk to my buyers as a sideline!


----------



## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

That's what I do and I make cow cheese now, but I have a safe supply of milk for my babies.


----------



## Laverne (Apr 4, 2010)

http://dairygoatsplus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=276 Posting with exerpt from Pat Coleby's book. Remission of Johnes with proper nuitrition and copper levels.

http://www.webmd.com/ibd-crohns-disease/news/20040519/wormy-cocktail-fights-crohns-disease. Hookworm infestation protects against Chron's in humans.

I can't find it but I read of a study done with calves and with proper copper levels the calves wouldn't contract Johnnes.


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

Just thought I'd pass this along... Kevin Kinney sent this out to our district, in case anyone else didn't get it:

New FREE Booklet Details Johne's Disease in Goats 
Although it is not known how widespread Johne's disease is in goats in the United States, the infection has been confirmed in many goat herds throughout the country-in milk, meat, heritage and other breeds.

A new 16-page booklet developed by the National Johne's Education Initiative in cooperation with USDA-APHIS-VS, the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection and the School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Wisconsin-Madison shares facts about Johne's disease as it applies to goats and goat owners.

Delivered in an easy-to-read format, the Q&A booklet provides answers to questions such as "What is Johne's disease?", "How do I know if my herd has Johne's disease?", "How can I help keep Johne's disease out of my herd?", "Should I test my herd for Johne's disease?" and more.
Goat owners and veterinarians can obtain a free copy of the new Johne's disease Goat Q&A booklet by contacting their state Designated Johne's Coordinator, calling the National Institute for Animal Agriculture at (719) 538-8843 or by ordering a booklet online at www.johnesdisease.org.
National Institute for Animal Agriculture, 10/27


----------



## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

I got my booklet in my email in PDF format, courtesy of some ADGA member...can't remember who!


----------



## grandmajo (May 22, 2008)

Thanks for that link Billie! I went to the website and if you follow the link to the goat Q&A then click on the picture of the booklet it will download in PDF format.


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

Okay, folks, when in doubt - ask the expert -- here is her answer to me regarding whether Johnes is passed in pasteurized store milk --
And yes, I will continue to use it as I always have.

**************

Tracy,

Here is an answer from Dr. Becky Manning to your question regarding Johne's disease and pasteurization ".feeding whole grocery 
store milk to goat kids, and whether store milk has the possibility to transmit Johne's or not?"

Answer from Dr. Manning:

To me the most pertinent question is actually "What source of milk provides the least risk to my kids?" not so much does 
pasteurization kill every single MAP cell in every bottle of milk so there is zero possibility under any circumstance of 
transmission.

Pasteurization is extremely effective at killing MAP in milk and given the dilution effect of thousands of gallons of milk, 
most not containing MAP, the risk is extremely low. Pasteurized milk (or milk replacer) in fact is recommended for kids in a 
herd known to have Johne's disease to limit transmission of the infection to this susceptible age group. Infected does may 
test negative in early stages of the disease (since they are not producing antibody or shedding the organism consistently, 
there are no "signals" for the diagnostic tests to find), but their milk may contain the organism and thus is risky to use.

For further information on the ecology of this organism see http://johnes.org/biology/resistance.html#10.

For further information on the infection in goats, see http://johnes.org/goats/diagnosis.html and select topic of interest 
listed at the left.

Elizabeth J.B. Manning, MPH, MBA, DVM
Johne's Information Center
School of Veterinary Medicine
University of Wisconsin - Madison
2015 Linden Drive, Madison WI 53706
608 265 4958
http://johnes.org


----------



## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Thanks, Tracy!


----------



## stoneyheightsfarm (Jan 19, 2008)

:yeahthat :thankyou


----------



## Aja-Sammati (Oct 26, 2007)

That was an interesting letter, but it didn't really answer any questions or say anything new...


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

"Pasteurization is extremely effective at killing MAP in milk and given the dilution effect of thousands of gallons of milk, most not containing MAP, the risk is extremely low."


What else did you want to know, Michelle?


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Tracy in Idaho said:


> "Pasteurization is extremely effective at killing MAP in milk and given the dilution effect of thousands of gallons of milk, most not containing MAP, the risk is extremely low."
> 
> What else did you want to know, Michelle?


Well I'm not Michelle, but I'm confused. Does pastuerization kill it or not? I must be missing something??


----------



## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

What I get from that letter is this: Pasteurization kills it nearly all of the time. Beyond that, it's diluted by clean milk. In other words, the risk of your kids getting Johnnes from storebought pasteurized milk is very low, and unless you own your own clean cow (that has been tested for years) or know someone with a clean farm that has been testing for years (since it doesn't show up right away and infected cows can be asymptomatic for a long time), there's no real way to do any better.


----------



## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

:yeahthat


----------



## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

So it's kinda like anything else in life, no guarantees but you'll probably live through it.


----------

