# Inducing Heat/Getting Does Bred



## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Hey guys, first of all, just wanted to say this forum is such a wealth of knowledge! Thanks for sharing all your years of learning with us. 

Secondly, I have a question about Lute. I searched for "Lute" and have been reading threads that pertained to using Lute, but none have answered my questions exactly. I have several does, ranging in age from 10 months to almost 4 yrs that I still need to breed. Long story short, I didn't get the goats until the end of September, then had to wait until I talked to the previous owner about lines and such. I got about half the does bred, but still have several more that need to be bred for the year. ( Hate the thought of kidding in June, and might choose to just leave a few more as dry yearlings, etc) Apparently I'm blind or something, because I've been missing heats in these does all winter. So, I guess what I'm asking is for someone to explain to me the correct guidelines on using Lute (or whatever works best) to get these does bred. They share a fence with the bucks, but there is no way they can be bred. I hand breed all my does, no escapees, etc. Thanks in advice!


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Lute will bring them into heat, but not necessarily a fertile heat. You will need to know "for sure" if the does are open before giving Lute. Should they be bred without your knowledge, the Lute will abort them. Having Saanens and Sables, your window for breeding season is closing very quickly. I would highly suggest using CIDRs on the does to bring them in. You can find information on using them in the Goatkeeping 101 section.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Lute (Lutalyse is the official name) will only bring a doe in heat if she's already cycling normally.If she has any reproductive problems, just a shot of Lutalyse won't do the trick. If she's cystic (probably not, because that would result in heats recurring about every week) or has a lingering uterine infection, lutalyse will have zero results. Are these all yearlings? (then the uterine infection is out). CIDRs work well on open yearlings and does, but if you doubt pregnancy, blood test first.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

If you go to Pipevet.com, they sell the CIDR's individually also, if you don't want to buy the whole huge package of them, as well as the PG600 you will need. I bet you just missed their heats, especially if they are youngsters. Perhaps you could pen the young ones with the buck next time, and then you will probably see when they are in heat or can check under tails for signs of breeding, or even put a breeding harness on the buck, which you put a colored crayon in and when he mounts the does it will leave a mark. They use these in sheep a lot and some use them for goats. I don't think you are going to, but just FYI, you don't want to have does with CIDRs in to be penned with bucks.


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Thanks guys. I have 5 yearlings 3 Sable 2 Saanens and one almost 4yo doe. I also have one yearling that I'm not for sure on, so her we'll just wait and see. If she isn't bred, it's no big deal. She is my only grade, so I can just show her as a dry yearling. I have another yearling, but she is too small to breed yet, so she isn't a big deal either. All the other ones I know for sure they aren't bred. 
I hate how messed up my breedings are this year! 
The CIDRs sound like a good idea. Just to be clear, you insert a CIDR and leave it in for 21 days. Before pulling it, either 12 or 48 hours before, you give a shot of Lute or PG600. Then the doe should come into heat 12 + hours later and ready to be bred. I won't be AI'ing. Just hand breeding. Thanks for the insight!


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

DO you get the same CIDR as for sheep to use in the goats?


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, they are the same.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

Vicki's protocol (search on here, it's somewhere) is 21 days. It works (I have tried it with pretty good success). Then later I heard at the AI course at ADGA National Convention that you should not leave in the CIDRs any longer than 2 weeks. Hmmm, haven't tried that, but just thought I'd mention that, too.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

I've had them work by pulling them at day 14.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Here is the protocol I used for 2 doelings that I took to an outside buck (one settled, one went back into heat):

1. Insert CIDR (the sheep one)
2. On day 20 give a shot of PG 600 (dose is 1.5 cc IM- I used 1 cc because I was worried since they were doelings...probably why the one re-cycled) 
PG 600 is a pig med. You do not want to give more than 1.5 cc for fear of them superovulating and not being able to carry all the fetuses to term.
3. 12 hours later, pull CIDR (I did this around 6pm I think)
4. Both doelings were in heat by noon on day 21.

Hopefully someone will post the 14 day protocol. When I was looking into using them, I could not find the 14 day protocol, so just went with the 21 day one.


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## KJFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Here is 14-day protocol that is in GK101:

Controlled Intravaginal Drug Release (CIDR) devices are another progesterone delivering, intravaginal vehicle and a favorite method for most ET programs. Unlike the porous material of the sponge, the CIDR is made of an inert silicone elastomer that is non-porous and does not readily absorb bodily fluids. The producer is cautioned to only use CIDR’s designed and sized for use in goats, not bovines. Depending on the manufacturer, the CIDR made for use in goats delivers 0.3 g of progesterone; a CIDR for use in bovines delivers a substantially greater level and is physically much too large for the goat’s small vaginal cavity. Once inserted, a cattle size CIDR will readily and almost immediately be expunged by the doe. Nor can such bovine devices be carved or cut down to accommodate the smaller size of the doe’s vagina. First, because there is no absolute means to determine the amount of progesterone being delivered by the remaining “piece” of the device, and second, because the resulting rough edges would grossly irritate the interior of the vagina and lay potential for open sores in the vaginal walls.

A CIDR designed for goat use, when used with full-sized goats and according to manufacturer’s instruction, can be used both safely and effectively with no vaginal trauma or other negative results. The CIDR has been found to be the most cost effective device providing ease of use for the producer. Like the sponge, it can be inserted using a cut off and sanded syringe with lubricant, a large sized speculum or, although slightly more costly, an applicator designed specifically for this use can be purchased. Specialized caprine reproduction services can assist you in locating such an applicator. Once properly inserted deep into the doe’s vagina, the CIDR unfolds into a “T” like formation that aids in retention. Be aware that it is not uncommon for pen mates to grasp the clear plastic line that protrudes from the doe’s vulva and remove the device. Some producer’s have found that cutting off the bulbous tip at the end of the line, helps to avoid pen mates taking notice of the device’s existence in the doe. Daily monitoring of the device is advisable to confirm that it has not been inadvertently removed. Some producers running large herds choose to color the clear plastic line with a brightly colored paint or enamel. Although this may cause more notice by pen mates, it enables easy monitoring of the device during routine feeding and as a daily management protocol. 

CIDR and applicator Loaded applicator 


Whatever form of implant selected by the producer, it is best to follow the manufacturer’s labeled instruction on its proper use and application. No device of any kind should be considered for re-use. All implants are designed by their manufacturer and labeled for single use. Some manufacturer’s recommend leaving the device inserted for as long as 18-21 days. However, producers have found in goats 9-14 days are sufficient to induce the desired result. Once the implant is removed, a majority of does will be in estrus within 24-48 hours. However, insemination should not occur until proper timing is achieved for the technique the producer wishes to use. It should also be noted that intravaginal progesterone delivering devices could lend some additional “color” to vaginal mucus. This can be deceiving to an inexperienced technician unfamiliar with working with such a device and who is using mucus color and consistency to gauge a doe’s stage of estrus.

For AI with frozen semen, some manufacturers recommend a 200-400 iu dose of PMSG be given up to 48 hours prior to the device’s removal. Some manufacturers further recommend that insemination using a laparoscope or cervical technique be performed within 48 hours of the device’s removal. 

In field trials, producers have gained the highest rate of success when practicing the following protocol involving a progesterone device that delivers 0.3 g of Progesterone.

Day one; insert progesterone implant. 
Day thirteen; 2 cc of prostaglandin administered intramuscular (IM) with dosage dependent on product label and doe body weight. 
Day fourteen; 1.5 cc dose of PG600 administered IM and device removed. 
Day fifteen; doe shows sign of estrus. 
Day sixteen; doe is carefully monitored and inseminated.
Protocols for the same implants may differ when intended for use in an ET program rather than simple insemination methods. Some commercial ET services offer a regiment which involves the repeated daily use of FSH for a period of four days, accompanied by a single dose of prostaglandin for the donor doe, and a single dose of PMSG for the recipient does. Some ET technicians report that superior results are obtained if the implants are removed from the recipients 12 hours before they are removed from the donor does. The producer is advised to consult with the intended ET service provider for their preferred methods of preparation of any animal intended for use in an ET program. Each ET technician’s own techniques and schedules, often based on personal experience, may affect their individual requirements.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Thank you Janie. So the 14 day protocol uses both PG 600 and Lutalyse (prostaglandin). Perhaps that is why I went with the other, because I didn't have any Lute. Has anybody tried doing the 14 day pull without it?


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## icboers (Feb 1, 2009)

Yes I use the 14 day protocol and I do not always use Lute. It works with or without.

Karla


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## Tracy in Idaho (Oct 26, 2007)

I always use the 14 day protocol. I do use the lute with it, but it will work without it (but it's cheap, so may as well)


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Thank you all so much for the info! It seems pretty easy/safe etc. About like using an IUD for people, lol. 
One other question on the lute though... I know it is used for abortions and inducing labor, but if it doesn't produce a fertile heat, why use it for heat cycles?


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## H Diamond Farms (Jun 3, 2011)

Well, apparently you just have to threaten them, lol. Found one of my Sable yearlings in heat when I went out this evening.


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## PrairieTrail45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I think a lot of people will use lute to get a doe "in heat" to be used when collecting bucks for AI. That way you know you will have a doe in standing heat the day the collector comes.


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## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

Yes lute can be used to bring them into heat for buck collection purposes and does this very reliably but as pointed out above - it is not necessarily a fertile heat.


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

Lutalyse does what the name implies. Causes luteolysis. Which means that when there is a corpus luteum present (which it won't work if one is not present), which is the remains on the ovary where an egg ruptured, it will help to break this down. The c.l. is where progesterone comes from that helps to maintain a pregnancy and prevents ovulation. In some species, maintaining a corpus luteum is the only thing that keeps a pregnancy from ending. In others, the c.l. is only responsible for progesterone production for the first part of the pregnancy, until the placenta starts producing enough to maintain the pregnancy. In goats, it the c.l. must be responsible throughout the pregnancy for keeping progesterone production going.


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## Trysta (Apr 5, 2011)

When using a CIDR, I don't think there's any need for Lutalyse, since pulling the CIDR is the hormonal equivalent of ending a pregnancy and the sudden hormonal drop induces heat in a healthy doe. And this would be a fertile heat.

Lutalyse by itself WILL result in a fertile heat IF and only if that doe was already cycling normally. If she's cystic or has other problems the lutalyse won't fix that. So, as a general rule, when breeding off season in a non-cycling doe, you will need a CIDR to get the doe bred. In season, with a healthy, cycling doe, all you'd need is lutalyse to time your breeding.


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

There is a protocol out there for using lute with PG600 and CIDR's....it in the end is going to be up to each breeder to figure out who to listen to. Vicki


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