# Anglo Nubians for Anglo Bulgarians



## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

After a marathon 18 hr round journey I arrived back at home on Sunday night with 5 Anglo Nubians. 4 in milk does and 1, 4 month old buck. I bought twin sisters in their 3rd lactation and 2 other does in their second lactation.
According to the owner they all freshened last December, he used pg 600 to induce heat early on all the does. He said they are giving about 1.2 litres per milking but they seem to be giving that over 2 milkings. 
They have not been fed any grains or hay/ alfalfa during their lactation and have only had acsess to poor quality pasture.
I am in the opinion that they are very under condition for the breed Sally however is not.
We bought them for a long term breeding program and for the short term to up our milk supply, which for what they are giving isnt going to happen. 
During the day the does are in a seperate run and are given free choice alfalfa hay and a cup of grain at each milking at night they go in with my existing does and again have free choice hay.
We have been following a previous thread by RAK 123 where some of you suggested to her she should dry her does up, and get them in condition for breeding in the fall. Sally and I do however agree if this is the best thing to do it will done.
We planed to split our breeding season into early and late this year so next year we would have a more constant milk supply. So if we were to dry them up, it would not be a problem for us to wait longer to get them back into condition and breed them later as this fit in with our plans any way.
Here are some pics of the does, so we would appreciate your comments and advice.


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## Cannon_farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Love how wide those hips are.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

They don't look so under conditioned to me. My Nubians and Mini Nubians in milk look about the same in early production (when I feed them pretty much all they will eat). There are different styles of Nubians and some are more dairy and not so meaty as other types. I wouldn't dry them up, just slowly introduce your grain and feed regime, and they will come back into condition. A drop in production does seem to happen when buying does in milk, plus as fall approaches they want to dry up and breed. But I wouldn't let them dry up, or you set a bad precedent. Make them do a whole 305 cycle.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Angie thanks for your advice, you cant really see in the photos, but from certain angles the ribs are visible on all the does, which makes me think they are under condition. How do you dry your does up? do you do it gradually or do you stop one day and put mastistitis tubes in each teat and dont milk again untill they freshen, like the cow folks do. How do you suggest we slowly introduce the grain and feed regime and to a maximum of what amount, we are starting on as I said 1 cup of barley 2 x daily, and free choice alfalfa hay. What do you think about feeding oats instead or barley, as they have a higher fat content?
Do you think they are in a good enough condition to be bred?


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## Faithful Crown Nubians (Dec 5, 2007)

I don't think they look bad...  

Their coats look shiny in the photos.


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## LittleBits (Aug 6, 2013)

They are in good enough condition to be bred, but they do need some more weight. With my milkers they get 16% dairy lactation grain, calf manna, sunflower seeds, alfalfa pellets, dry cob, and beet pulp. 4lbs of the mix per day right now.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

Starting with a cup at each feeding is wise since they are unused to grain and will need to build the gut flora to digest it. I feed oats myself with no supplemental fat beyond that. Any time I try to add rice bran, I get smooshy stools. I added a little bit of cracked corn this year to see if it would help them hold their weight a little better. I think it has helped. Corn is simple carbohydrate so helps add calories.

Ribs showing a little, getting boney along the topline, it's signs that they could put on more condition, but I'd rather see that than obesity. If I have one that looks like these, I breed it and just continue grain through the pregnancy, free choice alfalfa and let them put weight on before kidding. A dairy animal should not be heavily conditioned, but I find if they are just right at kidding, then two weeks later they will be quite thin.

I've not had mastitis problems in my herd. Since I go to once a day milkings when the heat of summer hits, I'm able to just stop milking cold turkey, and that's that. I've never done teat infusions. I know some do.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

As for feed amounts do you really feed 4lbs a day at the moment? I take it this is the full ration for when they are in milk. I have read that Nubians need to be fed well to reach their full potential, which obviously I want to achieve but I didnt realise it was so much, I have no problem feeding that much I just want to get it right.
My existing does, are fed 1 cup of grain morning and night, about 1 lb a day the higher producers do get more, and only half that during their dry period slowly increasing until they freshen.


In amoungst all this animal husbandry talk, how could I forget to mention the milk.
WOW!!! how good is that! We are cheese makers and chose the Nubian breed for its milk, what a difference. Our main product is Bulgarian feta, at the moment it takes 6 litres of our goats milk to make 1 kg ( sorry about the EU volumes ) we have used 4 litres of Nubian milk to make the same amount. We also make a cheddar style cheese and I cant wait to get enough milk together to start making cheddar from it, I guess it will be very buttery and creamy.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Congrats on your new does! I dont think they look terribly thin either, especially for milking off poor pasture. I agree, slowly add feed. I'd probably just being them up to a couple lbs grain a day if it were me. And of course always worm new animals.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

My Nubian milkers only get 2 lbs grain a day. LittleBits said part of her mix is alfalfa pellets and beet pulp so that's not 4 lbs of grain. You can challenge feed at the beginning of lactation and see how much grain increases production and at what point it is just waste.

I'm glad you are enjoying the milk. It is fabulous for cheese. I love the taste of hot curds when there is still a little of the sweet whey on them. Mmmmm....


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

Quentin,

Just a little observation about cheese yields and nubian milk. There is a thread in the Cheese and Dairy section of the forum about cheese yields. I thought I'd pass along some observations about cheese yields from my nubians' milk. I have been making chevre all year. Yesterday I finished a batch. I set 19.5 pounds of milk and it yielded 4.4 pounds of cheese. It took roughly 4.43 pounds of milk to make 1 pound of cheese. That ratio has been pretty consistent over the year, however, the yield seems greater the further into lacatation. Right now we're late in lactation, in fact just two days away from drying off.


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## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

CONGRATULATIONS! They are beautiful.


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## LittleBits (Aug 6, 2013)

Yes I do feed 4lbs a day. Its 4lbs whether it not I have the alfalfa pellets and beet pulp. The beet pulp is to barrel them out for shows mostly.

I have to feed my milkers a lot to keep weight of them though. They are 2 gallon a day milkers, and I have one that milks close to 3.

So at 4lbs total my mix is

1lb calf manna
1lb 16% 
1/2 sunflower seeds
1/2 dry cob
1/2 alfalfa pellets
1/2 beet pulp

Without the last two the mix would be

1 1/2lb calf manna
1lb 16%
1/2 sunflower seeds
1lb dry cob


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## LittleBits (Aug 6, 2013)

And when they are not in milk, but need weight I feed 1lb calf manna a day.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Thank you all for your support, Im glad you all approve of my purchase.
Nicole, in respect to cheese and late lactation milk we have found this with our normal goats milk, it is due to later lactation milk contains more protein, and to be specific, the protein, casein, and even more specific, capa casein.
The theory aside, practically today we have had a disaster making a test batch of cheese using 4 litres of pure Nubian milk.
This is the process we use;
First we add Calcium chloride 3ml to 10L of milk then pastuerise the milk then cool quickly to 34C 99F. Next we add 4 drops of rennet per litre milk and leave to set ( approx 30 mins ) we then cut the curd into 2 cm cubes and leave for another 30 mins. We then drain the whey place the curd in cheesecloth and hang to drain untill they stop dripping tightening the cheese cloth about every 30 mins. After this the cheese is placed in cheesecloth lined moulds and pressed for 12 hrs.
We did this today with pure Nubian milk, firstly it took a lot longer to form a set, then the curd did not expel as much whey as normal goats milk, when cut, drained, hung and pressed and we were left with a soggy mush. Is there a special technique required when using Nubian milk for cheese. We have been making cheese now for 4 years with normal goats milk with no problems, this is the first time it has happened.
Ive looked on the cheesmaking section but cant find what you mentioned.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

You have Alpines LittleBits? I can't get my Nubians to eat 4lbs grain per day even when I try twice a day feeding. They just self regulate. Challenge feeding they start walking away from the feed bowl at about 2 lbs. (And they don't give a gallon a milking either, so that may be that.) I feed alfalfa hay to the point they waste it, as it is very affordable for me (especially now that we cut our own and so get it for $1.50 a bale).

I don't know alot about cheese making. Try looking on this blog - I'll been having alot of luck with the info on here http://thewayofcheese.wordpress.com/


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

You probably don't have calf manna over there - it is a high protein supplement we have here. I've had trouble with goats developing plugs in their teats when I push them to produce with that so I don't use it with my milkers. It maybe too much total protein with the quality of my alfalfa. I do like to give it to my growing doelings - it has anise in it and encourages them to eat it. Hmm... Maybe that's how LittleBits is getting her Alpines to eat up.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Angia I pushed 16% lactation pellets on my goats last year, one of my best producers plugged up and has never recovered she is now one of my worst and will be going soon. This is when we changed from feeding high protein concentrates and low protein grass hay, to alfalfa hay and just oats and now just barley. My girls seem to thrive on it, and at the moment as the pasture is dry Im sure they would consume alot more grain if I gave them the chance, but I limit my highest producers to 2 lbs a day.


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## Goat Town (Nov 20, 2010)

GHere's the link to the thread about cheese yield tests: http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f22/cheese-yields-test-32665/


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## LittleBits (Aug 6, 2013)

I don't have a problem getting my animals to eat calf manna. It could be a goat, cow, horse, pig, chicken etc. They all eat it up around here, no matter the age.
My animals are steam shovels and vacuums when it comes to grain. Maybe its because I start them on grain at a few weeks old?

I haven't had a problem with them leaking milk from not forming teat plugs. If I have a doe that ends up having large orifices and leaks her milk, I tape her teats.

Yes I do have alpines, I also have boers.

I also feed alfalfa hay, and oat/grain hay. And free choice loose minerals.


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

We aren't talking about leaking milk LittleBits. We are talking about high protein causing our goats to form hard plugs that are hard to milk out of the teat. They come out like little cheese curds sometimes with specks of blood. I found those went away when I took away calf manna. The calf manna also seemed to cause edema problems for mine. Mine just don't seem to tolerate that high of protein, but it may be my hay is alot higher protein and they just don't need supplemental protein like that. The goats do love the taste of calf manna. They would vacuum that up, but I can't let them have it. :/


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

We spoke about easing my new girls into their grain ration to give their gut flora time to get used to it. I have been feeding them about 1lb of barley per day for around 7 days now, do you think now it will be ok to double that or should I still work them up to say 1.5 lbs for another week then onto 2 lbs?


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## fmg (Jul 4, 2011)

I would just go up to 1.5 for awhile, then up to 2. Doubling for that much, would be kind of a lot, I think.


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## LittleBits (Aug 6, 2013)

Definately work her up to it. I agree ^^


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## Nuttynanny (May 22, 2013)

I think they look pretty good, the coat is shinny. How's the skin under the coat, dry, flanky? If coat and skin are good it is a sign of good over all health.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Angie I have just re-read a reply of yours, saying we should milk the goats for 305 days or it sets a bad presedent. Do we really keep going for 305 days, lets say they are only giving a few squirts of milk towards the end of the lactation do we keep milking to the end however little milk they give? 
I suppose this applies to all breeds of goats, but my local breed goats would if Im lucky and hadnt dried up naturally only give a few drops at 305 days. Do we really push them to give milk to the end. What do you all think?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

That's your call. If they are all but dry, I probably would stop myself. How long you milk one year does affect the next year. I'll keep going if I'm getting at least a pint.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Angie, how does one years milk affect the next?


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## swgoats (May 21, 2010)

I'm not quite sure the biology behind it, but I've experienced it. If I dry one up early one year, the next year they start quitting earlier. But if I milk them until they can milk no more, the next year they produce much better. It's like I set the reset button. I think we had some research behind this phenomenon on the forum before, but I'm not sure where to look.


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## SANDQ (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks Angie, I was speaking to a neighbour of mine who says if her goats freshen in March they naturally dry up in the last week in September. She could not believe we milk into December, " what good goats you must have " she said. 
I tried to explain to her that the goats are the same as hers, but my management is different, I seperate at birth for one, and feed during the lactation for another. Everybody dam raises in my village and leave kids on mums for 3 months, I have found with this method with local breed goats that as soon as you pull the kids off mums they start to dry up naturally, as in nature this is what would happen, as there are no kids to feed. I also explained that with seperating at birth, I become the surrogate kid and I want to suckle 2x daily untill there is no milk left in mum or at 305 days, again she would have none of it and said my goats are better goats. 
These people have raised goats this way for years and are just stuck in their ways thats all.
It is an interesting phenomonen, and how man over time has managed to manipulate nature to his own devices.


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