# Soybeans



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

:help I have always been told that you only want to use roasted soybeans, not raw. Why? I am not looking at info on why not to use soybeans  Just why not raw rather than roasted?

Because, soybean meal used in nearly all pellets over 11% in the south contain soybean meal...ground up soybeans that are raw, not roasted. I have used tons of sacks of soybean meal here, once again raw not roasted. Calf manna and the knock offs of it, the protein in it is soybean meal...once again raw. The deer guys, luring deer to their deer stands, and those who raise deer so big shot politicians can get a 'trophy' and shoot their friends  use raw soybeans and what are our goats besides milking deer? So...anyone have this answer for me  Thanks much! And yes I am being lazy and hopefully someone with time can scope this out on the internet for me  Vicki


----------



## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Better digestibility

http://www.livestocktrail.uiuc.edu/dairynet/paperDisplay.cfm?ContentID=232


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Maybe you could give this to me in English  It didn't read to me like it was very successful in proving raw was much of a problem, although the small chain fatty acid part was greek to me if it was good or bad...and now I need to know the temp they are roasted at  I will call them tommorrow  The difference in price between raw and roasted is $14 per 100 weight, that is huge, although roasting them myself aint happening in this heat but would be worth it for that price! Least I could keep that temp correct. Thanks as always PAV! Vicki

CONCLUSIONS
Additions of soybeans to the basal diet increased the flow of N to the small intestine. More specifically, roasting soybeans appears to decrease ruminal degradation of soybean protein. However, soybean N flow to the small intestine decreased when soybeans were roasted at temperatures greater than 285o. This response to increased roasting temperature may be due to a change in physical resilience of the soybeans; as roasting temperature increased, the brittleness of the soybeans increased. However, the quantity of N available to steers was increased due to increased digestibility of soybean N that reached the small intestine. Roasting soybeans did not protect unsaturated fatty acids from biohydrogenation in the rumen; however, digestibility of long-chain fatty acids was increased as a result of roasting.


----------



## Squires (Jul 23, 2010)

No -- that's not it. There's something else. I think that raw soybeans and some other types of beans (but not all types of beans) have a factor that inhibits the use of some amino acids or vitamins or something. It is not a fatal flaw -- just makes it a "less efficient" source of amino acids or something. 

Or is that what that paper said? (I am sleepy right now and don't have the patience to read it). 

The processing of the soybeans to extract soybean oil is equivalent to roasting it -- the undesirable substance is broken down or deactivated or whatever. Sorry, I can't give you references -- but I did do a lot of reading on this a while back. 

Most "meals" have been processed enough that they are made more digestible.

Some livestock can tolerate raw soybeans and do just fine. Others really do not grow well on raw soybeans. This can be overcome by providing a varied diet so that soybeans are not the primary source of proteins. 
Chris


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Here's a good article that explains the process. While the meal is not "roasted", it is "cooked". Something about protease inhibitors in raw soybeans being denatured so that the protein is more digestible (maybe Pav can explain that one?).

http://www.soymeal.org/pdf/processing3.pdf


----------



## hsmomof4 (Oct 31, 2008)

Proteins are chains of amino acids, kinked up and connected in various places. Denaturing a protein occurs when the protein is heated and the connections and kinks come undone.


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

Grains and beans have phytic acid and other chemicals to protect the seed but it also makes the seed less digestable. Processing (cooking, sprouting, soaking) is supposed to fix that problem.


----------



## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

Squires said:


> No -- that's not it. There's something else. I think that raw soybeans and some other types of beans (but not all types of beans) have a factor that inhibits the use of some amino acids or vitamins or something. It is not a fatal flaw -- just makes it a "less efficient" source of amino acids or something.


You're talking about something different. Raw soybeans inhibit digestion of protein because they have a compound that inhibits trypsin. This is only a concern for very young animals who do not have a developed rumen population. Typical fermentation takes care of this in a healthy goat so it's not a concern for milkers.



> Something about protease inhibitors in raw soybeans being denatured so that the protein is more digestible


Right, the heat does stop the enzyme inhibition. Enzymes work by fitting together at various selective sites based on the physical shapes of all the kinks and twists that Stacey mentioned. Enzymes are just types of proteins. When you denature them, they don't work the same way, the shape changes.



> Maybe you could give this to me in English It didn't read to me like it was very successful in proving raw was much of a problem,


It isn't, especially not with whole soybeans. You have to weigh the increased uptake in protein due to increased feed conversion from roasting against the price. It's something like 10% more efficient. And well, most of the feed makers out there use raw, so you already have your answer if it's cheaper to just use a little more soybeans to hit protein targets in feed or roast them . But feed only to healthy animals, at least 3-4 months old. You do rumen building, so the enzyme inhibition isn't a big deal for you.


> Grains and beans have phytic acid and other chemicals to protect the seed but it also makes the seed less digestable.


Largely does not apply to ruminant animals, which make enough phytase to break it down. Our goaties really are amazingly special . Phytic acid is actually a good source of phosphorus to ruminants, that's one way how we balance Ca ratios when using grain for carbs.


----------



## Ziggy (Nov 13, 2009)

So who on here is feeding soybeans (raw or roasted) in their grain mixture and at what proportions/amounts?


----------



## nightskyfarm (Sep 7, 2009)

Almost all commercially available dairy rations have soybean meal as a primary ingredient and as Pav said it is typically raw soybeans, hulls and all, ground up. So, unless you are mixing your own feed ration, you are already feeding raw, soybean something.

This was so appropriate and interesting I had to quote Lee and put her post reply here. She was discussing precocious udders in goatlings:

_"One of the main causes of this is feeding soy. Both to livestock and humans. Soy affects the endocrine system.
If something can be used as estrogen therapy why does anyone think it will not act as an estrogenator when consumed regularly as feed or formula? The studies providing information to the contrary are financed by soy interests. We see documentation of 8 year olds getting pregnant- a result of modern agricultural practices-govt subsidies of soy and a complete disregard of the fact that it is a suspect in extreme emotional behavior, asthma, immune system problems, pituitary insufficiency, thyroid disorders and irritable bowel syndrome in addition to breast development in 3 years olds and pubic hair in 5 year olds. They were fed soy milk as infants.

Infant goats are often fed soy for protein in common feed mixes and pelleted rations. 
Precocious udder can result as well as premature maturation and deformity of male reproductive organs."_

I hope you don't mind, Lee, but since this tread is about the use of raw or roasted soybeans, your post just made the soy issue even clearer.


----------



## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

The science is a little more inconclusive than that. You're dealing not only with metabolic and breed differences but also strain differences in soy. It's possible to have soy with low phytoestrogen levels.

Here's some info on isoflavon metabolism

http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/isoflav.html

It's hard to say conclusively what effect feeding soy has on goats in terms of reproductive health.


----------



## buckrun (Mar 7, 2008)

I do not believe that the pediatric community has any questions about the effects of soy.
The only thing in the way of a ban is a completely powerful lobby and world wide mega corps.
Some governments have issued health warnings about soy and children under 18.
We are always decades behind.


----------



## MF-Alpines (Mar 29, 2010)

Did anyone read the article from soybeanmeal.org? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it says that soybean MEAL is processed, either chemically or by heat, but mostly by heat so that it is NOT raw. And THAT is what is the protein in the pellets. ????

I think RAW WHOLE soybeans are quite different than the meal or flakes in the pellets. Are there whole soybeans in any of the manufactured rations?


----------



## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

MF-Alpines said:


> Did anyone read the article from soybeanmeal.org? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it says that soybean MEAL is processed, either chemically or by heat, but mostly by heat so that it is NOT raw. And THAT is what is the protein in the pellets. ????


It may be; it all depends on what the feed maker chooses to do. Some buy the processing leftovers from making oil or other products. Some grind the whole bean. Some do whatever's cheapest on the market at that time.


----------



## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks Pav and everyone else, my head is going to explode. Vicki


----------



## doublebowgoats (Mar 6, 2008)

I think that the soybean meal in feed products would have to be heat-treated in some way. Truly raw meal would be rancid in no time.


----------



## linuxboy (Oct 26, 2009)

If it's used in pellets, then the heat of making pellets would do the job and it wouldn't matter if the raw source was treated or not.


----------



## old dominion (Oct 25, 2007)

Here goes my non scientific explanation. Roasted soybeans have a more easily used by pass protein that make the girls produce more milk. They are high fat and high protein. I believe in them so much that I roasted them in my kitchen oven for years prior to finding a commercial supplier 67 miles away.


----------



## Anita Martin (Dec 26, 2007)

They used to tell us to boil our linseed meal (flax) before using it, or it would poison a horse. My old horse books still give directions on that. Now everybody feeds it freshly ground or "stabilized" whatever that is. Roasting might give higher milk yields or better weight gains, possibly similar to the effect cooking has on grains we eat. We could get fat off cooked wheat, in breads, cereals, etc. but if we ate it raw, such as in soaked or sprouted, we'd never gain weight. Same with nuts such as almonds. Try seeing how you feel after eating a cup of roasted almonds, verses eating a cup of raw almonds. There is a big difference, and I guess it depends on the outcome desired which way we'd go, raw or roasted? Nope, me no scientist either.


----------

