# A Purina representative...



## Madeleine M. (Oct 26, 2007)

spoke at my 4H meeting this morning. He said that Purina goat chow is a complete feed, and that mixing it with alfalfa pellets and beet pulp and BOSS dilutes the nutrients. We have only been feeding goat chow at all since the does are over 100 days bred.

Should we assume he is only interested in selling more goat chow, or are we really doing something wrong?


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

YEP :biggrin


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## Patty13637 (Oct 26, 2007)

That said I don't feed chows ..to expensive and to much junk in them. Feed whole grains and a good mineral along with alfalfa and in the end you will save money and have healthier goats .

Patty


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

I fed purina when I first got into goats (many years ago) then found out they got fined here in TX for putting it thru a grinder that had animal parts in it. part of the mad cow thingy that was banded in the US going into meat or dairy animal feed. Have never bought Purina again and NO I wouldn't consider it a complete feed there are other feeds that say this also. I don't use chows either I mix my own grains.


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Does the ingredient list say, whole oats, whole barley, whole corn ? etc. or does it say grain byproducts? "whatever they scrape off the floor"


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Nothing is more irriatating than that to me. How many goats does this guy milk? So why are you listening to him 

Nothing infuriates me more than breeders recommending to new folks to use this or that with no real understanding. Doe-Lac is really popular around here, and has a photo of a very popular herds doe on the label. To this product she adds BOSS, Beet Pulp, Calf Manna and oats. So is that product so inferior that she is adding fat, claicum roughage, protein and minerals and carbs to it? So then why not just feed boss, beet pulp, calfmanna and oats? isn't she just really feeding that and top dressing the Acco Doe-lac? Yes.

And isn't this exactly what you are doing to your Purina Goat chow. Improving upon a hugely expensive product that contains way too much molassas, and not enough grain and nowhere enough calcium in the calcium carbonate and sulfate in the bag.

Back in the 90's I was on a test for them...feed a bag get a bag for free, my milk numbers plumeted, and that was back when I was feeding sweet feed and grass hay. And even I the penny pincher, broke the contract and took the herd off Purina Goat Chow.

You would be soo much better halving the Chow with oats, then 1/4ing it, then doing away with it for good...you can still bolster the oats with the beet pulp and Boss if you like. Alfalfa pellets is alfalfa hay, it is not a grain. It should be the backbone of your feeding program. Vicki


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## Madeleine M. (Oct 26, 2007)

Thank you, Vicki.


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I know for sure I don't trust Purina Goat Chow. A few years ago, a salesman from a feed store drove by my place and saw that I had goats. He offered me a good deal on goat chow if I bought what he had left. He said they had ordered it and then there weren't enough goat people to buy it. I bought something like 10 bags of it and added it to my grain mix. One day my goats were out grazing in the yard and one of my favorite does got into my garage. She helped herself to some extra Goat Chow. This wasn't half a bag or anything close to that maybe one or two scoops worth at most. The next day, I lost her to what I believe to be either entero or acidocis. I know if it had been dry COB she'd gotten into it wouldn't have killed her. It had to have been all that molasses or something else they put in it. I won't buy it anymore. Kathie


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## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

Ok, we've mixed our own, fed a complete pelleted feed, mixed our own again and now are feeding a complete grain mix, so you could say we have done it all. When someone new asks what can they feed I usually tell them that Purina makes a pretty good feed (I used to sell feed and can read a feed tag). They are over priced, molasses does hide sins, but all in all for someone who doesn't know anything about feed it is a good place to start. And it is available almost anywhere where as it can be hard to find some ingredients to mix your own. So I do believe there is a place for Purina Goat Chow, I am not a big fan of them either but at least they are recognizing goats as animal worthy of being fed a proper diet. It meets the goat's basic nutritional needs, but if you want more production you need to add to it.
We feed a complete feed right now because it is formulated for lactating does and is very palatable because of the steam flaked corn. We top dress beet pulp and that is all. I do not have time to be mixing my own feed for 30+ adult animals several times a week (while we are busy milking does and feeding kids) so find that the added convenience is worth it. We do mix our own feed during gestation. 
I agree wholeheartedly when Vicki says that hay is the backbone of your feeding program.
Tim


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## Melissa (Oct 27, 2007)

not just any hay Tim, alfalfa hay or pellets.

-Melissa


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

OK....a bit off of the topic...but why do goat people look SO far down on top quality grass hay? I am not talking about fescue cut at late bloom stage in the heat of the summer. But, early ryegrass, orchard grass all cut at or before boot stage. 

I know that the Ca level is lower in the grasses at times. But, Ca is cheap in to put in mineral. I just find it odd that people will shove all this 20 to 26% alfalfa down a goat. Then wonder why she takes a turn for the worse in a heat beat. They are rumeniants...they to have long fiber. Or you will not get a good rumen mat...thus, faster passage of the feeds. If you would feed some grass along with alfalfa then you will get a high milk production since the rumen is in a steady state.

Just a thought

ken in mo


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## steffb (Oct 26, 2007)

That is exactly what my vet told me.
Perhaps the difference is in location. I am in NY.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

Ken....I believe that long stem fiber is important too. I know that in some amount of time, that all this stuff looks the same after being on the inside a while. 
My vet (who has raised goats) says that long stemed fibers included in a goats diet, promotes more cud chewing....and this "more" promotes a healthier digestive system in a goat or any other rumin animal.

Now, I guess my question would be this.....if this stands true and reasonable thinking, just how much more benefit to the person buying the feed(s).....goat eating the feeds.....production in the milk pail, or possible avoiding health related problems, do you actually get from having this long stem fiber as a % of their daily diet.

That, I don't know....but I do know this. It all turns into these little dark colored pills that I plant around my rose bushes, fruit trees and such....and they like em all.

Whim


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## goatkid (Oct 26, 2007)

I know that some of the people who feed all their alfalfa in pellet form also have acreage for their goats to browse, so the animals to get other plant material to stimulate the rumen. My goats are mostly dry lot fed, so I feed alfalfa hay in addition to pellets and also have some native grass hay available if the goats need it. What I find is that if my goats have tummy upsets, they want the grass hay, but otherwise prefer the alfalfa hay. The grass hay is mostly fed to the bucks. Kathie


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

I feed about 50 lbs of Alfalfa pellets to 20 does once a day. Everything else they get is browse and good grass hay. I like feeding brome hay the best but I've had to go to a decent orchard grass in the last month. This time of year its all hay as there is no browse. I wouldn't be without the good grass hay. They go through a lot of it and look great.


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## Keeperofmany (Oct 27, 2007)

So can someone tell me if you feed alfalfa pellets and alfalfa hay, is that too much alfalfa? I feed alfalfa pellets now and was going to try and get alfalfa hay this hay season. 

Wendy


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

Alfalfa overdose ? I don't think so in the sense that you are speaking of. May hurt an old piggy doe who might over eat it, without being used to eating it.........but still even then, I think the percent of problems overall would be very very low.

JMO......Whim


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

But if you can get good alfalfa hay and have the way to haul and feed it properly, why feed the pellets?? :?


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## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

ozark_jewels said:


> But if you can get good alfalfa hay and have the way to haul and feed it properly, why feed the pellets?? :?


 I agree, pellets are dried further and then pelletized which has to break down some of the nutrients. During lactation we feed mostly alfalfa with some brome grass, and during the first part of gestation they will get primarily brome grass (along with a grain for their energy requirements).
Tim


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## Halo-M Nubians (Oct 26, 2007)

I feed alfalfa hay and some pellets. I like the pellets because of the zero waste factor. I have nice feeders and they still mange to pull the hay out and stomp on it! *sigh*


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

Whim,

I just find it funny with alot of the goat people that just push push push the alfalfa feeding. When you walk by at a show and see none of their goats chewing the cud. I was raised and trained...at all times except feeding over 50% of the animals should be chewing the cud.

Yes, it all comes out as little black pellets. But, what is in those little black pellets that you wasting? Funny thing I did years ago...I had a job of disecting cow waste. Funny that when they was feed a diet in low fiber...more protien and feed came out not digested. When they was on a higher fiber diet...less came out at the end.

Ken in MO


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## Melissa (Oct 27, 2007)

I'm not sure my goats would eat enough menerals to get the amount of calcium needed Ken?

-Melissa


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

Well Ken......you got me to thinking, which can be a dangerous thing within itself........but I'm needing to get a better grip on what I am feeding here, because of a problem with these big ole kids trying to be birthed by these little bitty doe's.
I was just in conference with a couple ND breeder's on here, and am getting a little suspect that my winter rye grass and other long stemmed browse throughout the pregnancies , may be providing way more nutrition than I am thinking.
Auburn U. is just below me down here, and they do a lot of cow research there. I am some friends with the DHIR man down there. I may see if I can send some grass and poop samples to them to be analized for nutritional contents. With nothing to compare the results to, I am not sure what it would accomplish .

Whim


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I push alfalfa pellet or alfalfa hay feeding because they are dairy animals. Most do not blood test or do liver biopsy to find out what defficencies in copper, selenium etc...or overages of iron or magnesium is in their goats. One size does not fit all in goats.

Having the backbone of your diet for your goats being the calcium and protein in good alfalfa, simply makes life soo much eaiser. I know 100% doing forums like this since 98 that those who feed alfalfa as the backbone of their ration, using grain as the supplement it is supposed to be have far less metobotic disease than those who feed grass hay and rely on grain to fix the underages the grass hay has.

In dairy situation which is where you come from, you are likely not dealing with excellent milkers, in me helping out dairies what I have found is by the time they have asked me for help they have long ago killed off all of their best milkers, rolling herd averages are low and goats who lived through the management can easily milk those amounts on the feed given. I know that on the lactation pellets and grass hay fed in my area, my goats died. It's why dairy owners will say that 'show' goats don't do well at dairies....my way of thinking is that does who have had any bloodline work on production can't live on dairies due to the non management of the milk string.

Here, no amount of calcium in the diet, in the form of minerals or even injections will negate the loss from not feeding alfalfa in some form to does who are asked to milk for 10 months, milk and be pregnant for 100 days, and then kid with triplets to quads with 50 days of dry time.

My easy answer Tim to new folks is alfalfa pellets, some grass hay in the feeders, a good loose mineral, hopefully one that is not red and oats.

Also if you want to go the all natural route, my does browze 13 acres of woods and some pasture, there is no long stem fiber in anything out in a natural area. And no butchered animal or the rumen cow at Texas A&M who only has a diet of hay, has anything long stem anything in their rumen, because they have teeth. I know dairies who chop all their hay for less waste. So for me the whole long stem forage idea has no merit for me on my farm. Vicki


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

Dog gone it Vicki, you just throwed me for a loop with this.
""""Also if you want to go the all natural route, my does browze 13 acres of woods and some pasture, there is no long stem fiber in anything out in a natural area. Vicki""""

Now see what you done....I got to go research what long fiber is now.

I was defining it as anything like grass, leaves, twigs, and stuff...............or basically anything that is eaten in it's more natural state like these.

:help2 , Whim


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## Tim Pruitt (Oct 26, 2007)

Alfala hay is just not a good choice if it is grown in the South. I am aware there are some areas where it is a good palatable hay and fairly inexpensive but by the time we ship it here, we would have to sell the farm to pay for it. For years, I paid over $5 a bale for alfalfa hay grown locally and threw 1/2 of it away or utilized it as bedding. The goats simply wouldn't eat it. (You can imagine the increased cost at today's prices.) Then there is the humidity problem that causes the hay to loose its value with mold and other issues right in the barn. 

I started feeding alfalfa pellets and grass hay with much better results. Believe me, they get plenty of fiber with their grass hay and there's almost no waste with the alfalfa pellets.


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## Sondra (Oct 25, 2007)

The idea to me of fiber and having to be long stemmed hay is ludicrus and of course is my personal opinion, because when you look at people (I know we don't have a rumen and four stomachs) and doctors will put a teaspoon full of mush in a glass of water for old people to have fiber or having them eat bran flakes to add fiber instead of eating raw vegtables etc is the same as us feeding alfalfa pellets or beet pulp to add fiber to our goats. 
I can say this, as a fact for over a year I was not able to buy any hay, it was either out of reach for my pocket book or not good hay grass or otherwise, because of the drought. My goats never looked better nor had they ever milked better than they did last year feeding all alfalfa pellets for nearly 1 1/2 years. and no hay what so ever. My goats are dry lotted, have no browse except for once in a while out on coastal burmuda grass which was also very limited due to the drought.


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## Rose (Oct 26, 2007)

I feed both alfalfa pellets and hay because alfalfa hay is not available here. My hubby brought back *one* truckload from his trip to Arizona. It's getting rationed to my does!


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## old dominion (Oct 25, 2007)

I have seen someone speak from almost every major feed company on the east coast. It is always the same line... Our feed is complete, our feed is the best, our feed has all the nutrients you need, Blah, Blah, Blah. My husband has also delivered grain to large feed companies. I have written about that before on this list. We shall leave it at as long as it is cheap enough it will be purchased. And lastly, if you look at the feed tags of most feeds they really don't meet the needs of your animals. 

One of my favorite stories is after I sold goats to a man who lives near the feed store where I purchase my grains and alfalfa pellets the feed man told me the guy had come in to buy a bagged feed because he couldn't justify purchasing the different grains. The goat wouldn't eat the prebagged feed. Enough said.

Jolene


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## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians said:


> My easy answer Tim to new folks is alfalfa pellets, some grass hay in the feeders, a good loose mineral, hopefully one that is not red and oats.


 With all due respect, we need to keep many factors in mind when making feed recommendations. Quite honestly goats in Iowa and the northern states who do not have heated buildings would be in quite poor shape on alfalfa pellets, some grass hay and oats, it just simply does not have enough energy for our climate of single digit temperatures for weeks on end. Management levels, equipment availablity, economic factors all need to be taken into effect when suggesting a diet. Goats are very versatile and can thrive in so many enviroments, why then does the feed need to be the same?? I just don't think it is a one sized fits all box.
Long stemmed hay is important here because it helps the rumen heat the body, we feed alfalfa because it is so much cheaper and easier to find than alfalfa pellets. I find that the bagged feed we feed now is far more consistant that buying the ingredients seperately and mixing them. That is our situation, I don't say it is what everyone needs to do, but it works for us. But I wouldn't limit my goats to a single set of inputs, when prices change and quality changes you need to look at all options.
Tim


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2008)

I guess what I am wondering now is what you all are caling long fiber? I go by the Penn State forage box. 3 inches and above. That helps keep the rumen mat at the max level. Hence, more BF in the milk.

For the people that are only feeding pellets and grains. What is your BF, if i may ask? I know with most dairy animals the more grain you put into them the lower the BF/protien ratio. 

I think if managed right dairy animals can excell in a commerical dairy. If not, then why is Jennifer Bice always having top ten milkers? Also, why is the top Brown Swiss for milk out of a herd of 450 cows. The top Jersey out of a herd of over 800 cows? I think that it comes down to management, remember that management is up to 85% of milk production. Genetics just up to 15% of the milk production. Animals can be both and SHOULD be both dairy animals and show animals. There is a direct relationship between good dairy form and milk production. That is been beat in to the ground at Cornell, UW-Madison, UC-Davis and many others. An animal has to be structury sound of they will not last, plan and simple.

Ken in MO


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

There of course is not just one way to skin a cat. And well ran hobby farms and well ran dairies of course both can produce wonderful showy milky stock. But on a whole giving out the grass hay and sweet feed advice is going to just add to the lists of folks with problem pregnancies. Now alfalfa hay, then you can pretty much feed whatever you want on the milkstand.

If you do watch my goats, other than say some grass that is 6 inches long or pine needles say 4 inches long and big leaves....but it is conditioned by the molars if not cut into pieces...it's not a mat of grass like when your dog throws up grass, when you steal a cud. And most of what my goats eat out in my woods is bark, youpon which is tiny litte leaves and the twigs, leaves, the very top seed heads of grass, and weeds growing down in the grass etc..

I know I feed little hay compared to most, I know this winter it has been more because my goats have so enjoyed KUrby's hay, so maybe a bale or at the top two for each animal from November to the end of April, at which time they won't eat hay, not that it isn't there if you want to eat it, but they simply don't.

But like Tim said, we certainly don't fight the extreme weather like you do all up north.

Sorry I can't help you with BF info, DHIR hasn't ever had to be on my radar for sales. Vicki


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## ecftoggs (Oct 26, 2007)

Vicki,
Thanks for the excellent discussion. Your does are getting long (unprocessed in this instance) fiber from the browse. You are correct that the molars break this down, but it happens through the rumenation process. When does chew their cud they are reconditioning this fiber to get it to the piece size it needs to be to be properly digested. This whole process creates a healthy rumen and builds proper rumen atmosphere. So while you may not put much credit into the browse they are getting, it is helping them to be healthy does.
Up here in the cold north with 2 feet of snow it is not possible to find browse or pasture to create proper rumen function, we will have to have a hay (grass or alfalfa) supply that does it for us.
Tim


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

"But if you can get good alfalfa hay and have the way to haul and feed it properly, why feed the pellets??"

1)reduction in wastage, thus $$ saving
2)better control...I know the minimum protein and calcium in the pellets as per the label but hay will be more nebulous as *most* here dont test their hay

3)I am confused. Our goats dont seem to lack any for cud to chew even when they are solely on pellets. Guess they are weird...it is Swede Farm, after all...and they have pretty much turned their pen into drylot...


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 27, 2007)

If it was available and not so expensive I would feed the alfalfa hay over the pellets any day of the week. Just feel that quality hay is better than the pelletized stuff. But since I can't, I feed the pellets.


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

Do goats really waste that much alfalfa hay? I mean, if you can get a bale of hay for $4, and a bag of pellets costs you over $9, aren't you better off with the hay? Do they waste over 50% of the bale? And I think a lot of square bales are even more than 50 lbs. I have had some that were.


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## BlueHeronFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

A bale of alfalfa hay down here would be more like $9. I never see it, even at that price.
We are free choice hay, 2x/day alfalfa pellet and 2x/day pelleted dairy ration feeders.
We also free choice minerals and baking soda.
We've got a goat that is over 8 pounds already at a few days fresh, so I think we'll stick with it.


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## Katarina (Oct 25, 2007)

alfalfa hey for $4 a bale?! I cant get coastal hay for that!!! And I dont recall even seeing it for $9, I have seen it for more like 12-14!

So for us, at least, with alfalfa pellets being $8.20 per 50lb bag with little or no wastage and the hay being so much more...yes, it is a huge savings.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

Right now is southern MO I am paying....$180/ton for 3rd cutting 23% protien alfalfa. I get it in 3x3 squares. Feed in Premeir style feeders and dont have hardly any type of waste. Since the leaves and that fall below in the feeding pans.

I have no clue on the price of small squares since to me they are a waste of time to feed. Also I have put up my FAIR share of hay in the hay mows...and dont plan on doing it again.

Ken in MO


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I get it in 3x3 squares. 
.............

Sounds like really really expensive hay!!! I would need a tractor or a man  Vicki


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

Vicki,

That is about the going price here in southern MO since I have it shipped in from NE. So, that is what we pay at the door. I figure in the price the trucking. But, its really not that high when you figure....a HEAVY small square is right at 80 pounds at say $7 a bale. That is what the horse are willing to pay...SO everyone has to pay that. That is $175 a ton. It would take right at 8 bales a day to feed everything. Or use the BOBCAT  and dump in a bale about ever 6 days. I figure its cheaper plus...I have found the big bales hold their leaves ALOT better than the small squares.

Side Note: when buying hay...a 3x3...is really a 3 foot x 3 foot x 8 foot big square bale. You have then a 4x4 that is 4 feet. 4x4 are HEAVY and a flake is right at 35 to 40 pounds.

Ken in mo


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> Right now is southern MO I am paying....$180/ton for 3rd cutting 23% protien alfalfa. I get it in 3x3 squares.


Well, I got you beat on that!!!
My alfalfa is Colo./Wyoming, I pay $105 a bale for 3'x3', about 1,300#'s each. Hmmm..that makes my hay $4.00/50# and alfalfa pellets are $9.88/50? Maybe I'll feed a bit more alfalfa hay. :rofl It's paying off living near the Hot Springs race track...those TB's have to have the best!
Kaye


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

Kaye White said:


> > Right now is southern MO I am paying....$180/ton for 3rd cutting 23% protien alfalfa. I get it in 3x3 squares.
> 
> 
> Well, I got you beat on that!!!
> ...


That is VERY true with those WILD things. Only the best!!! if that is not good enough...then they will buy something higher to make it.

Ken in MO


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

Ken I was teasing you. A bobcat rents for $300 a weekend. I can handle a bale of hay, our alfala hay is 125 pound bales for $45, and I will get a few to feed out my infant kids in the beginning. But hauling and stacking and feeding and cleaning up well you have heard that song and dance before. Shoot the ole GMC has 300,000 miles on it, it does not want me hauling hay anymore  Vicki


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

> A bobcat rents for $300 a weekend.


DANG...but a man costs much more than that!! :rofl I got both...a tractor and a man...hmmmm, I think the tractor works better than the man at putting out hay...and I don't get any lip from the tractor!
You two finish this...I'm going to bed!! I'm old and beauty sleep is way long gone! :rofl
Kaye


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

$300 a weekend? DANG...our sets in the barn about 9 months of the year!!!! I need to start renting that thing out. I cleaned out a barn for a guy and just charged him $40 and I thought I was ripping him off.

There is a way to make money

Ken in MO


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## Kaye White (Oct 25, 2007)

:biggrin Not if you own goat...or horses! :rofl
Kaye


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## Pairaka (Jan 12, 2008)

Just to give you guys some comparisons: Here in TN where people were cutting and baling WEEDS on the side of the road this past year because there was no hay to be found anywhere locally, and people were going out of state to get stuff to hay, a bale of STRAW costs $5 at the co-op. I've seen fields cut for hay that I didn't even know were supposed to be grown for hay! 

A 50 lb bag of alfalfa pellets (Merrie Maker) is $10.50. 

We were lucky and bought a load of 150 bales of orchard grass from a local feed store last June when hay prices started going up, and this was stuff the guy brought in from Kentucky, and it was $7 a small bale. We felt ripped off then, but we still have about 80 bales left and it's good quality stuff; it still smells sweet and fresh when we pull out a bale to feed to the goats. However, it was baled loosely and they only weigh about 40-50 pounds. Granted, the goats have started eating more as the does have come due, but hopefully with the added alfalfa pellets, it will last until we can get some more. 

A few weeks ago, at the TSC store here, I saw that they had brought in a supply of alfalfa and timothy mix (in those LITTLE bales), from Canada. It was $12 a bale. It didn't last long. 

We've had incidents of people stealing large round bales, the hay situation is so bad. They managed to find out who stole it and get it back--but only about half of it. 

As for alfalfa HAY... What the heck is that stuff?  And I'm sure that it would be quite out of our price range. 

-- Wendy


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## Ashley (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm a big believer in getting in the field and scooping up hay soon as is baled. We got some excellent bermuda clover mix hay last year for $3.50 a bale that way. The feed store wanted $7 a bale, I believe for the exact same hay. 

I tend to be cheap and you don't get money from me near as easy as you get labor. Although about the only thing I spend money on is the animals. You should see my wardrobe, or lack thereof.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

I'm getting one 3x3 bale today 3rd cutting western alfalfa for $110.00, I think last time I bought one it was $90.00. :laughcry I just put it in the barn on the other side of the fence from the hayfeeder and stick in a block at a time. Hauling hay is not too hard when you have a tractor to do it for you :biggrin Between my Jr. and Sr. year in high school that summer I hauled( with a crew) over 30,000 little square bales. Course I'd probably fall over dead now if I had to get in over 300 at a time. :help2


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

Ken, Wish you lived closer I'd pay you $40 dollars to clean out my barn. :yes


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## NubianSoaps.com (Oct 26, 2007)

I was thinking exactly the same thing!  V


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## SherrieC (Oct 26, 2007)

Ken where do you live? I could use you here anytime in April any weekend. : )


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